#486: Ouriel Ohayon on Introduction to Crypto

Ouriel Ohayon is the CEO of ZenGo, a cryptocurrency wallet that has cutting-edge cryptography, security, and UX/UI for crypto assets. In this conversation, we discuss an introduction to crypto assets for beginners, how the ZenGo wallet works, and why so many corporations and institutions are jumping into the space. ======================= Exodus is an absolute game changer in the crypto wallet space, and we’ve teamed up to offer an exclusive discount for you, as listeners of the podcast. Sign up for Exodus today using my promo code Exodus.io/. This is a no brainer for both newcomers and crypto heavyweights - go sign up today. ======================= Diginex is the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the US. Their ticker is Nasdaq: EQOS, and they are the first crypto company that you can buy stock in. They also have a crypto exchange called EQUOS, which has been built to institutional standards, but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot, as well as Bitcoin perpetuals, and get a 5% discount on all fees, by signing up using http://www.equos.com/pomp ======================= Money On Chain brings Bitcoin to mass adoption with solutions to meet the needs of different types of users: a fully bitcoin-collateralized stablecoin (DoC), a bitcoin on steroids (BPro), and a dizzying bitcoiner option for lovers of leveraged trading (BTCx). All this, without requiring the delivery of private keys. Money On Chain - Bringing bitcoin into the mainstream. Visit moneyonchain.com/pomp to learn more

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Oriol Oyon is the CEO of ZenGo, a cryptocurrency wallet that has cutting-edge cryptography, security, and user experience, user interface for crypto assets. In this conversation, we discuss an introduction to crypto assets for beginners, how the ZenGo wallet works, and why so many corporations and institutions are jumping into the space. I really enjoyed this conversation with Oriol, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Exodus.io. They've been around since 2015, and they've got a popular cryptocurrency wallet that's supported

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies. They've got interactive charts that lets you view the price history of a specific asset or your portfolio's performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with treasure hardware wallets, making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit Exodus.io for your free download, or search Exodus on the App Store or Play Store. Again, Exodus.io, or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store. They've been around since 2015, and are supported on both desktop and mobile. Go to Exodus.io for your free download, or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store.

• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Next up is Digenex. They are the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the United States. Their ticker symbol on NASDAQ is EQOS, EQOS. And they are the first crypto company that you can buy stock in. They also have a crypto exchange called EQOS, EQUOS, which has been built to institutional standards but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot, as well as Bitcoin perpetuals, and get a 5% discount on all fees by signing up using equos.com/pomp. Again, you can get a 5% discount on all trading fees if you sign up using equos.com/pomp, or you can go check out the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the United States under the ticker

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Symbol EQOS. Again, NASDAQ ticker EQOS, or get a 5% discount on all fees by signing up using equos.com/pomp. All right, and our last sponsor, MoneyOnChain brings Bitcoin to mass adoption with solutions to meet the needs of different types of users. They've got a fully Bitcoin collateralized stablecoin, they've got a Bitcoin on steroids, B Pro, and they've got a dizzying Bitcoiner option for lovers of leverage trading through their BTC X. All this without requiring the delivery of private keys. That's right, they do not require your delivery of your private keys. MoneyOnChain, bringing Bitcoin into the mainstream. You can visit moneyonchain.com/pomp to learn more, where you can discover B Pro, a token created by MoneyOnChain that allows you

• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

  to earn rent on Bitcoin positions and gain free leverage. Using their liquidity mining, B Pro holders also get MOCs every day. So yes, with a Bitcoin on steroids, DeFi is definitely for Bitcoiners. Head on over to moneyonchain.com/pomp. Again, moneyonchain.com/pomp. It's almost like a song, moneyonchain.com/pomp. Go check it out. Let me know what you think. All right, let's get in this episode with Orielle. I hope you enjoy it.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:49Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I am super excited for this conversation. I've got Orielle here. How are you doing, sir?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Bang, bang, Pomp. Great to be here.

• 3:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Where are you right now?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I am right now in the heart of Tel Aviv, the country that vaccinate people faster than you can say it.

• 4:08Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. All right, let's remind people what your background is and kind of what you guys do at ZenGo. And then we're going to get into this Bitcoin and crypto explainer kind of introduction episode.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  So Uriel, CEO of ZenGo, been in tech for way too long, on both sides of the aisle, both entrepreneur and an investor. But now as an entrepreneur and building ZenGo for the past two years, which is an easy crypto wallet for people to invest in the space. And it's sort of all in one mobile wallet where you can send, receive, buy, sell, earn, spend cryptocurrencies very easy.

• 4:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. So let's just, for all these people who are coming in now, they see Bitcoin's price ripping, right? They're like, oh my God, this is amazing. I need to go learn about it. Let's just start with kind of 101, like what is a cryptocurrency?

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Well, it's a, it's a digital asset that can be, that is rare. And that is rare and therefore that has value when the rarity of, of this asset is mathematically proven. It's not because people say it is rare, it's because you can actually verify it. Now, the, the beauty of it is that unlike money, you cannot unlimited, without limits, print, print it. And therefore, when, when you want to know exactly what's happening with a transaction, everything can be proven. You know where it's coming from, you know where it's going to, and the quantity also is, is limited. So for people who are coming from the world where they, all they know about is money.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  It's really difficult to understand at first because you don't understand this notion of unlimited money. But here is the thing, in 2020, we have learned that there is something like unlimited money. And COVID crisis has helped us realize that we've seen these trillions of dollars being, literally printed by the Fed in the US and many, you know, central banks in the world to sustain the economy. So people start to realize that the money that they have in their pocket does not have necessarily the value that they thought that they had. And so that's Has attracted them just out of curiosity towards these digital currencies that are that cannot be printed at will.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  And so I think this is the first point that needs to be understand understood about cryptocurrencies. I know this is also near and dear to your heart, based on what I heard on all your podcasts. And I think this is something that needs to be understand understood when you get started.

• 6:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Well, talk through a little bit about that's cryptocurrencies. Then talk about kind of how people can get started with cryptocurrencies.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so to get started first, I think you need to understand a few things that are very different from the the world of money as we know it's first, it's a 24 seven world. It never stops. It's really the money money that never sleeps as they say. And we are not used to that. Our banks are closing down on the weekend. The stock market is shutting down during the weekend. They are like post trading hours in crypto and like, you know, we all know it, we don't sleep so much. It's like it's never stops. And so you need to be ready for that. You need to be to be ready for a pace of continuous activity. The second thing that you need to be aware of is that in and we might talk about it a little more later is in in the world of crypto, you need to be very careful with security.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  And unlike traditional finance, where you have an account where you can reset, reset the password. Or you can like press a button called, you know, I lost my password or call your bank to get your account reset. In crypto, if you lose your password, which is basically a private key, but I will call it a password to make it simple. Then you lose all your funds and we've seen 2020 many of those stories that been horrible. Recently, there was a story in the New York Times where someone lost, you know, nearly 200 or more than 200 million dollars. So being careful with security is super important. And here is the thing, people will make mistakes because no matter how careful they are, they are not used to deal with security.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Especially with security related to money. So being very careful in the solution that you use, understanding them is super, super important. Whatever solutions you pick. Make sure you understand it fully and especially the limits of it, especially the risk associated to it. And there are risks to every single solution. There is no magic bullet. There is not a gold standard, if I may say, in crypto security. Even what was considered until recently the safest solution, hardware wallets, we've seen it with Ledger. There are point of failures. There are security things that can happen to your funds. You can be fished.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Your credentials can be lost, et cetera, et cetera. So you need to be understanding very well the risks. And by the way, this is what we've tried to build at Zango, which is a system, a wallet, which does not depend on password. It's actually the first wallet ever that does not depend on password. So that's really something very, very important, understanding the limit of the system that you are using. I don't know if you want to say something here, but I think it's really an important point.

• 9:31Anthony Pompliano?

  How does a wallet work without passwords?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  So this is where the magic of, you know, multi-party computation can enter. Multi-party computation has been a crypto science in cryptography that's been around for 30 years. But basically, what you're doing with multi-party computation is you are distributing the security of a single secret, in that case of a private key, among multiple parties. And what we have built in Zango is a completely passwordless system around that, where we ask you multiple factors, one of which is going to be your biometrics. Not the device biometrics, but the liveness biometrics. I could show you right now. I have a 3D mask behind me. And even those don't work.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  But basically, what it does, it's biometric scan of your face and it looks if you are alive, if you are you. And so only you can access your account. You can associate a trusted face to your account also, so that someone that you trust can also help you recover if something changes in your face. But what happens is you just get in with an email, you get in with a magic link like on Slack, and you get in with your biometric. And your account is fully set up in nineteen seconds, no passport to remember, nothing, nothing can happen if you forget something because there's nothing to forget. And so for beginners, it's very, very important and we've seen recently an explosion of traffic in our system because of this recent bull run of people coming to crypto.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  And they need something that is at the same time simple, but also that feels secure. And when you expose them to all those private keys and twenty four words, it's very intimidating. We are in crypto for a few years, we are used to that, but most people are are not used to deal with that. And it's a very intimidating, even sometimes frightening a step to go through. And most of the time, actually, it's been even a a break for most people to get in because they don't know what to do with that. So, security really matters, understanding it. If you want to go, you need to understand the limit of it. And then when, when you go, you go. So you get in, you you understand your, you understand that you you have your wallets now and you can go get some crypto. The most people think that the only way to

• 11:45Speaker 02

  get Bitcoin or to get crypto is to actually purchase it. But this is only one of the ways. There are many, many ways you can obtain crypto or Bitcoin without even purchasing it. There are many referral programs that enable you to invite friends and earn crypto. There are many cash back programs where you can just spend real money and earn back on crypto. There are many airdrops that are distributing crypto for free without you doing anything. There are ways you can get paid, uh, your salary in crypto. Uh, and it's happening more and more as you, uh, as you were aware. You can, uh, we, for example, pay many freelancers in cryptocurrencies and they want that.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  And so why they want that, it's a different reason, but it's happening. It's way more convenient than sending a bank wire when they are at the other side of the world. So, so getting paid in crypto is another way. And so there are many ways. Now, if you want to purchase, you can purchase and there are many, many avenues for doing that. Exchanges, you can go to many, many exchanges. So you have to go through a registration process, an approval process, a KYC. Process they will they will ask you identification. It's surprising the first time, but then you get used to it. And then you will be able to buy with a credit card, with a bank wire. And then you have to know what you're doing. You have to know when you're buying, of course. And here, no financial advice. I think there's a disclosure in your podcast. But you have to find out what is the best moment for you to get in.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  The important point is to make sure that once you make the purchase, you invest money that you're not ready to lose. That you are, sorry, that you are ready to lose and you will feel okay about it if that happens. Because there are risks, risk of volatility. There are risks of things that can go to zero even though the probability is low. And when you make a first purchase and you see those prices go up and down, it's very easy to to panic. It's very easy to not understand that. And that's something that people that are new to crypto are also not used to, this volatility factor. You know, the stock market, when it moves like 3%, 4%, up or down, you know, people are kind of, again, okay, all right, that's kind of, you know, that's the day.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  But in crypto, for example, today it has moved like nearly 10%. You you say, what the hell is going on? Or a few days ago, when Bitcoin lost 24% in a day. Well, if you've been long enough, you know, that's part of the game. That's how it works. And so, once you know that, it's fine. But the first time, you need to be ready for it. So if someone wants to get into crypto, try to actually not do it alone. That's some, that's a so often a a tip that we give to people who want to get started. Try to not do that alone, so that people can actually reassure you when you do something. And, uh, you know, very important, like all the crypto services, good crypto services have great customer support, so that they can assist people in those moments of tension, of stress.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  So being aware of the volatility is super important, so that you don't panic and you don't panic sell. And this is the best way to lose, uh, to lose, to lose money. So, once you know that, um, then there is your first transaction. Like, that's it. You got your crypto and you're going to make your first transaction. Here is a damn stressful moment. I don't know if you're Remember, Pomp, the first time you made your first time transaction on the blockchain, you had to take a public address. Oh my god, what is this thing like, looks like nothing, you have to send it, you have to verify it three times, four times, you compare your screenshot with the computer, because this looks like nothing, and this is awful, this is damn awful, I'm sure at some point those will be resolved,

• 15:24Speaker 02

  but today this is the case. So you have to be familiar with a public key, and no panic there, you just have to look at the address that you're using and make sure that you are indeed sending to that address. Then you have to be aware that blockchain transactions are not instant. Okay, sure, there is the Lightning Network, and there is all these like layer two, but when you are beginner, you're going to make a normal transaction. You're not going to go through those funky services that are unbattle tested and not built at scale, so you're going to make a normal transaction. A normal transaction is not instant. And then there is this concept of confirmations. So people are not familiar with confirmation. When you make a PayPal wire, or a Venmo wire, or a bank wire, you just press the send button,

• 16:08Speaker 02

  and it arrives or it doesn't. There is not this notion of like, I have to wait for this transaction to be pending and confirmed once and confirmed twice. And so, understanding the concept of confirmation, meaning that behind the scene, there is a process of confirmation operated by a network of miners, or computers, or a security process, is important so that you don't panic that you've pressed the button sell, and you don't see the transaction arriving. It takes sometimes, this time can actually widely vary, it can take a few minutes, it can take sometimes a few days when the network is congested. And then you have this confirmation that you can see. So, you know, most of the wallets, they will make you understand that there is a confirmation and which number.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Some of the best will actually notify you when a transaction is actually confirmed. But understanding this concept of confirmation is important. So that's it, you've, you got on your wallet, you got on your first crypto, you made it, you made your first transaction, you understood what is an address and a public key. So you can send your crypto, you understand what is the concept of confirmation? You understand that crypto is not instant and that it can take some time. But now there is a new thing that you need to understand is the concept of fee, transaction fee, right? That's something that is a deep source of frustration in the industry for new beginners. Why?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Because we are, we are kind of not used also to that. Like when you, sure, bank have used, have used customers to pay fees or for all sorts of things. And we cannot forgot about it. But people come to crypto with like the dream of this new finance paradigm, where everything is fast and going to be cheaper or free. Well, no, guess what? You have to pay fees. So what kind of fees do you have to pay? You have to pay network fees and those network fees can widely vary. You have to pay the miners. Okay, they don't need to understand that, but you have to pay the miners who operate the transaction. And so, so those fees can widely vary if the network is very congested.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  It can be a few cents and it can be single digit dollars and sometimes double digit dollars. Like we've seen Bitcoin network fees or Ethereum network fees being so expensive that sometimes they are more expensive than the total amount of money that you want to send. And if you are using, God forbid, a smart contract, like for example lending money on compound for, you know, for, for getting some APR or something else, then that can quickly rise up to tens of dollars. So it's very, very surprising and hard to understand. And it's even worse to understand if you want to try to get into the website that explain it. They all look very geeky and there are sorts of graphs and you don't understand that.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  The point is. If you don't, if you're not aware that they are fees, if you're not aware that they are highly volatile, if you're not aware that those can vary over time, it can be a deep point of frustration. Most people discover it sometimes too late. We at Zango, for example, spend an enormous amount of time to explain to people how this works in our customer support. Sometimes it's enough, but many don't feel sometimes they feel that we deceive them, although it's not our responsibility. And I'm sure most services have the same issue. That's something that is built by design. The worst is on Ethereum, because you have to, sometimes when you want to send a NRC 20 token, a token, you have to pay the gas in Ethereum. And if you don't have it, then you're stuck.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  And so it's kind of getting into limbo, where you just acquired a great token or whatever, chain link, you need to swap token, whatever. Yeah, that's it. I got it. I went through all those steps. And now you want to send it and say, oh, you have to stop here. You have to get now some Ethereum, because this is how you send a transaction. So the concept of fee is deeply frustrating in industry, not just because it exists, because it is complex in itself. And one of the jobs of the wallets are there is to make sure that you smooth that as much as possible. You cannot eliminate it. You cannot pay for it. If you pay for it, you will go bankrupt. Some have tried to do it, and they deeply regretted it and went backwards. So you just need to make sure that people understand it as much as possible.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  So now you understand all those things. And I think at the end of the day, now you're part of the beginners of the digital economy, right? Now you understand that you are in charge of your own funds, that you can make transaction, that there are multiple ways that you can acquire crypto or you can earn crypto, and that now you can spam crypto. And now there is a new chapter which is investing these assets in all sorts of services. But then, when you realize that you are at the step, you're not a beginner anymore. You start to become an advanced user and you start to explore the avenues of the crypto economy and the new open finance. So anyway, I think those are very, very important things.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  We tend to forget them because we've been so much into it that once we know, we do it naturally. It's like a new grammar or new language that you've learned, right? You forget the alphabet and the grammar. Or when you play music, you forget the scale, you just play. But when you deal with beginners, and I'm sure in the recent run, many people have tried to contact you, ask you questions. I got harassed by so many people, what is this and what is that? And just a good reminder that to be down to earth, that the majority of the world have no idea what we're talking about. Absolutely no idea. And we need to be very, very humble in the way that we help those people get to this industry.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  We have to be patient and we have to be very, very simple in the way we explain things because it's very intimidating. So I think that's a good, a good first, let's say, first package of tips for people who want to get started. And I know if you have grandmothers or if you have aunts or if you have your friends and family who want to get started in crypto, they should be aware about all of those things.

• 22:24Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a great primer. Why are so many institutions and corporations getting into it?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Well, because they also realize the same thing. You know, they realize that, you know, if you look at the value of the dollar and it's really relative weight and power for the past two years. And we will not say who is responsible for it or not, okay? But there was a global crisis recently that has accelerated that. You see that the dollar has basically lost its momentum as an asset of trade, an asset of.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Value and so there are so many things that are depending on the dollar. Uh, including all the global uh financial infrastructure. So all the institutional players who are exposed to uh these mechanisms. Say to themselves, well, uh, what am I doing here? I see my, you know, all my assets basically melting. I cannot let that happen. I need to have something that is uncorrelated to the value of that dollar. And that works by a different kind of logic. And this is this kind of new asset, in particular Bitcoin. Uh, that cannot be printed at will, that accrues in value the more people participate in the network.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And suddenly, uh, the, and suddenly they, they, they, they make just a simple calculation. Maybe I should diversify my portfolio and what has happened in the past six months? You've seen public companies putting crypto in their balance sheet. You've seen uh Fortune 500 companies uh starting to talk very differently about Bitcoin in a very positive manner. Banks, uh, you start to see those fortunes and, and billionaires also. Even people like Mark Cuban, that are very negative about, about crypto. Uh, basically you, you realize that they own some of it. And so you have kind of this wave, you, you have also all these celebrities that wonder themselves publicly if they should. Exposed to Bitcoin, get exposed to Bitcoin and do, right?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And so you have kind of this wave of people that start to adopt it and that's kind of. Engaging more people to think about it, not to take action, but to think about it. And so you have the, you, you know, the, the, the relative perception that the, the dollar is losing its value. That it needs to have an edge, an exposure to your portfolio. You start to have all these public companies that start to make, you know, micro strategy, of course. Everyone's talking about them all the time, okay? They could, they could make a, a podcast right of their, of what they're doing on a daily basis. It's, it's just insane. They've made the position of a billion dollar, I think, in cryptocurrencies. You know, very, very smart guy behind it.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  And so there is not one company right now in the world that is not having second thoughts about it, that is not discussing their Bitcoin strategy. You know, it would be irresponsible for them to ignore it. It doesn't mean that they will take action, but it's definitely on the table. And so on top of that, you have also the retail market. And it's not a US trend. It's not just a Western development. It's a global trend. Everywhere in the world, you see this kind of mass attraction for something that enables what I like to call a borderless economy, meaning a system where you can transact freely with anyone without permission of anyone.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  So you can not just speculate, but also participate into all the financial functions of an economy. The most important one is getting paid. There are so many people that are not being able, are not, cannot get paid because they don't have access to a bank account or their bank account or their bank account has been closed or because the rails are not functioning well or because the national currencies is worth nothing. And so we have to remember that we are very lucky in developed countries, but there is an enormous amount, actually the majority of the world who is not so lucky. And so they need something that works. And for them, it's not like a nice to have or an edge. It's an urgent need. It's something that they need yesterday.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  And so we see this adoption at a global scale of all those, all those people who want to just have an access to an asset that they can transact with very simply. And obviously, they, most of the time have only a mobile phone, so they can use only a mobile wallet. They cannot use a hardware wallet or a computer wallet and they don't have the sophisticated vaults of the edge funds and things of that nature. And the first thing that they want usually is Bitcoin. So, so there was kind of this bull run that has happened recently has been also illustrated by that. And you know, many companies, including us, have seen our traffic exploded.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  You know, I think the price of Bitcoin went 3X in two or three months, something like that, or close to 3X. Uh, well, all the servers went also 3X, all the metrics went 3X. And all our sleep has been decreased by 3X too. Uh, and everyone has had downtimes and it's been really a challenge for this industry. Uh, just proving that we are not yet ready for mainstream. It is happening, but we're not yet ready. Uh, the customer support, you know, and Coinbase, for example, just published an apology. They can't keep up. It's really, really hard. When you have all those people coming with all the points that we've mentioned, have no clue what crypto is about. And ask this question, are impatient and don't understand security and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  It's very hard to keep up with that demand, not to serve them, uh, the crypto that they want, but also to serve them as customers because they have legitimate questions. So it's an industry that is, I think, in an inflection point in terms of the nature of the demand that is shaping it. It's no longer, you know, early believers, geeks, financial traders, those who have made crypto the 10 first, first 10 years. We see now two different shapes adding up on top of that, compounding on that industry, which are clearly institutions and not crypto institutions, institutions who have understood the necessity to diversify. And need an edge of exposure in their portfolio and this massive retail demand

• 28:48Speaker 02

  uh, that is global and not just in Western development because they just need exposure uh, to something that enables them to live and participate and build their wealth. Because otherwise they have nothing or close to nothing. So I think this is what we've seen in the past months and that has been really exciting, but also very challenging.

• 29:08Anthony Pompliano?

  What are you looking most forward to in 2021? Like, what's the milestone you're most interested in?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's a very special day. We're recording on a very, very special day today. There's a new president in the US and there is a lot of eyes that are turned towards what's going to be done in terms of first regulation. There is a set of actions that have been engaged before the nomination of President Biden that raised many questions about what would happen to the space in terms of like, how would stablecoin be considered? How will exchange will live to operate with wallets? The identification of the users, the data that they need to keep trace of.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  All these were kept in the air and did never translated into any sort of action. But they have deep, deep, deep consequences into how the industry will be shaped, organized, and adopted by the outside, meaning the customers, the users. And so now, I guess, one of the things that everyone is waiting is to see how this is going to play out. There is now a new SEC chairman that has been nominated, which apparently, I say apparently, but to be verified, like in crypto, is crypto-friendly. But we'll have to see, we'll have to see how the OCC now also is getting organized after Brian Brooks now has departed and was, we all know it, very looking forward to

• 30:39Speaker 02

  the development of crypto. And so for me, 2021 is a milestone year in terms of how the regulation in the US, which going to be a model for the rest of the world, are going to be shaped. There is a set of critical SEC actions that are going to play out in 2021, which could be defining to how some projects are going to be evaluated. So the first one in mind is obviously XRP, because we know that it's, you know, it's happening right now. So we'll see how it plays out and, you know, the jury's out there. But I'm pretty certain that it's not the last. There will be other type of action of that nature against other projects, against other tokens.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  And they will be defining, we've seen that they've hit big projects before like Telegram, that could not go out live, because it was stopped, I would say, at the last minute. And the SSV seem to be determined to draw a line, not very clear where it is, but to draw one line. And so I'm also looking forward to see where this, how far this is going to go. Finally, I'm also very interested to see how finally, because this is a choke point of the industry. Banks are finally going to adapt to that new world. Because, I mean, just to give you an order of magnitude, about half, maybe more, of all crypto transactions,

• 32:05Speaker 02

  purchases are censored by banks right now. Just because they decided so, okay? It's not because it's illegal, it's not because they, it is a new law somewhere that says that, is they decided that it was a danger for their customers, and they apply it randomly, and it's a real pain for customers, for crypto operators, for customer support, etc., etc. They have no reason to do it. Even worse, now there are, there are texts in the US in particular that allow banks to custody digital assets. There are new rules, especially in a state of Wyoming, that allow people, you can get a bank license if you're a crypto company.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  And there is more and more grounds for welcoming crypto if you are a bank and embracing the change versus resisting to it. It's like being a newspaper in the early days of the web and just denying that you want to go digital. Well, that has turned really, really, really bad for some of them and really, really well for those who adapted. So I really want to see in 2021, banks be braver, be braver, embrace the change. I'm sure, I'm ready to bet that there will be one major bank that will make the move, and it will be a major win for them. And because they will attract the industry to them. And they will attract the adopters to them and it will set the pace for the rest of the industry.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  But unfortunately for now, there is this reality. So I really want to see that change. And I think what could make that change is also what I said before, the regulation. On the rest, on the technology, I'm pretty bullish. I'm sure there will be major innovation, especially in the territory of fee management, which is, like I said before, still an area of disasters and frustration for everyone in the space. There is great, great progress in Layer 2 and in Lightning Network. And I'm sure we'll see something coming out tonight. So overall, I think there are a lot of very important milestone events that will be defining to

• 34:14Speaker 02

  the adoption curve of the industry. Obviously, more and more easy solutions for people to use, not just for beginners, but also just for people like us who are very busy and need something very convenient. And I cannot say it enough, people underestimate the power of simplicity and convenience. Those have been unlockers for the digital music business, for the streaming business, for the mobile business. It will be an unlocker also for the crypto economy. And right now, the space is still way, way too complicated, even for the successful companies. Last hope is I hope our world becomes a little less centralized. Right now, the majority of crypto assets and crypto transactions are essentially done

• 34:59Speaker 02

  in centralized services, which is precisely the opposite of what crypto is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be a decentralized, user-controlled ecosystem. And today, it's not the case. And the reason is precisely because it's way easier to do it in an exchange than to do it on a decentralized wallet. But I think it's already changing. We see the trend of Bitcoin moving out of exchanges back to wallets. And I think it's going to accelerate in 2021.

• 35:28Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that's a great view on the world. Where can we send people to find out more about ZenGo?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Well, it's very simple. It's zengo.com and on Twitter, it's @zengo. No funky stuff. We managed to get both. And on Twitter, I'm easy to find. I usually answer to all your tweets. So you just follow Pomp and you will find me somewhere there.

• 35:53Anthony Pompliano?

  You're doing a fantastic job. I love it. One last question for you. You've already answered all the rapid fire questions I normally do. So the only other question you've never answered is what's your sleep routine? I've got the guys that ate sleep now are basically trying to take over the entire tech industry and get everyone to use their thermo thermo regulation mattresses. And I've got one and I'm sleeping like a baby. What's your sleep routine?

• 36:15Speaker 02

  My sleep routine is that simple. I turn on the TV. I've got a backlog of great TV shows that I'm watching. The last one that I saw was Ted Lasso, which I highly recommend. And usually I fell asleep in 10 minutes. It works like it works perfect.

• 36:36Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. I love it. All right. Let's send people to zen go.com or at zen go on Twitter. Oriole, listen, thank you so much for this. This is fantastic. You're an absolute wealth of knowledge. I think that people who are coming into the industry can learn a ton from you. So I appreciate you taking the time today to do this.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Thank you. My pleasure.