Margaret Roberts Exposes the True Story of the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Ongoing Cover-Up

Thirty years ago, Timothy McVeigh was arrested and later executed for the deadliest act of domestic terror in American history. Margaret Roberts says most of what you think you know about the Oklahoma City bombing is a lie. (00:00) What Was the Oklahoma City Bombing? (05:59) The Mysterious Second Man Involved in the Bombing That Has Never Been Identified (15:51) The Missing Video Tape (23:03) The Mysterious Origins of McVeigh (35:20) Where Did They Get the Money to Fund Their Attack? (48:17) The Arrest and Mysterious Death of Kenneth Trentadue Margaret Roberts is a prize-winning investigative journalist and former news director of America’s Most Wanted. She is the author of the newly released book Blowback: The Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing (https://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Untold-Story-Oklahoma-Bombing/dp/B0DLV8MFZD/), a fearless investigation into the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that challenges the lone-wolf narrative. Paid partnerships with: Tecovas: Get 10% off at tecovas.com/tucker iTrust Capital: Get $100 funding bonus at https://www.iTrustCapital.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  So you're, I would say, one of the living experts on the Oklahoma City bombing, which to some of us seems like just the other day, but it was 30 years ago this year. So for those not steeped in the details of the story, if you wouldn't mind giving us the overview, what was the Oklahoma City bombing?

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Sure. The Oklahoma City bombing was and is America's deadliest domestic terror attack. It happened on a Wednesday morning in 1995, an April morning. Out of nowhere, 9:00 in the morning, at the Federal Building, the Alfred P. Muir Federal Building, nine stories tall, a devastating explosion hit the building and killed 168 people

• 1:27Speaker 02

  who were working or visiting the building that morning. The front of the building looked like

• 1:36Speaker 02

  ice cream that had been scooped out. It was just a scene of unbelievable destruction and death and blood and confusion. And the entire nation was left just aghast that this could have happened in America's heartland.

• 2:17Tucker Carlson?

  It was shocking and there was confusion. I remember that morning well in April and people immediately went on CNN to say that Muslims had done it. That was the first understanding was this was some kind of Islamic terror attack. And then we were told that, no, it was really one guy with an accomplice who wasn't there. The guy was called Timothy McVeigh. He had a rider truck full of ammonium nitrate fertilizer mixed with diesel fuel, I think.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:51Tucker Carlson?

  And that's when most of us learned that that mixture could produce an explosion like this. Now, that's, I think, well-known, but that's when most of us learned it. And he was a white supremacist. He was mad at the government. He was mad about Waco and Ruby Ridge. And he's a veteran, but he was part of a network of white supremacists. And then we spent the next year or two hearing about this. Bill Clinton often referred to this. And then he was executed and that was kind of the end of the story. So that's the layman's understanding of Oklahoma City.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yes, and it was quite an amazing couple of days. In lightning, fast speed, the FBI found Timothy McVeigh, tracing the axle from the rider truck to a motel 275 miles north in Kansas, where McVeigh had checked in to the motel using his own name. And pretty soon, just within a matter of a couple of days, the FBI found its way to parry.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Oklahoma, about 75 miles north of Oklahoma City, where McVeigh had been arrested on traffic charges, driving his Mercury car, the getaway car, without a license plate. And the officer, the arresting officer, found that he was carrying a concealed weapon. McVeigh was very polite the entire time. There was no thought that McVeigh was connected to the bombing. The highway patrolmen took him into the Perry jail. And he sat there, he was on his way to a bond hearing

• 4:58Speaker 02

  and to be released when the FBI, through this incredible speed of their investigation, found him in Perry, Oklahoma, on Friday afternoon for that now famous perp walk out the door without a vest in his orange jumpsuit and his thousand mile stare and the gathered crowd around chanting "Baby Killer." That's what we remember of our first sight of Timothy McVeigh, the suspected bomber.

• 5:40Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, the FBI is good. I mean, they got him within days on the basis of a truck axle. How did they, how did they say they did that?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  They, they tracked, they tracked the VIN number on the truck axle to Ryder in Florida. And Ryder had a record of that truck being rented out of Junction City, Kansas. And so they went to the rental agency. And sure enough, Put two and two together. The identification was made from first the Ryder, the rental truck agency where McVeigh had rented the truck.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  They remembered him and they made a composite sketch of the two men, not one, but two men who had been present for the rental of the truck. And with the sketches, the FBI spanned out in Junction City and found that motel where McVeigh had registered under his own name.

• 6:53Tucker Carlson?

  Hmm. What do you mean, two men? Who was the other man?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  The other man who eventually would emerge as the mystery man of the Oklahoma City bombing was never identified, but the staff at Elliot's Body Shop where they rented the Ryder truck, two days before the bombing on a Monday, they all said there was a second man there and he was described as being very muscular, having a tattoo, having dark hair, and just standing to the side while John Doe one, who called himself Robert Kling, rented the truck.

• 7:41Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So, and Robert Kling was Timothy McVeigh?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Robert Kling was John Doe one, believed to have been Timothy McVeigh.

• 7:50Tucker Carlson?

  Who in the end was convicted, sentenced to death and executed in pretty, pretty short order.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:58Tucker Carlson?

  When was he executed?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  He was executed in 2001. That, that is short order for a capital crime.

• 8:05Tucker Carlson?

  For sure. Yeah, for sure.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Six years later.

• 8:08Tucker Carlson?

  So, he's been dead for 24 years. The terror attack was 30 years ago. When you say the, the man with him was never identified, do you mean to this day?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  To this day, never identified and really the abiding mystery of the case.

• 8:26Tucker Carlson?

  I'm confused. How could you have the biggest terror attack, domestic terror attack in US history? Destroy, you know, the downtown of a major American city. And you don't, over 30 years, you don't find the second guy?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  That's a great question.

• 8:44Tucker Carlson?

  One of the truest observations ever, it's hard to have a good time if you're stuck in bad boots. And that's why you need Tacovus. They make it easy for anybody, including people like us, hardly experts in boot fashion, to find the perfect boot. Here at TCN, we love Tacovus boots. Everybody's got them. You can find us wearing our favorite pair during the day or an evening out, not even line dancing, anywhere. Tacovus crafts quality Western boots for everybody, generational ranchers, lifelong cowboys to first time buyers. They handcraft their boots, over 200 meticulous steps to create broken in comfort the second you get them right out of the box. The difference is obvious when you put them on. It's unbelievable, actually. You never know that they were brand new. There's no compromise between quality and style.

• 9:28Tucker Carlson?

  There's a reason Tacovus gets such high reviews from everybody. It's the total package. Get 10% off at tecovas.com/tucker when you sign up for an email and text alert. That's 10% off at tacovus, T E C O V A S dot com slash Tucker. Honor the West by leaving your own boot print, tecovas.com/tucker.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  We all hear the radio ads about the IRS. They tell you to be afraid, to be scared, and they try to frighten you into calling. I'm not here to do that. Tax Relief Advocates is different. TRA is here to tell you that if you owe money to the IRS, whether it's $5,000, $50,000, or $500,000, we have a solution. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in your car, at work, or with your kids, no matter where you are, call now. 800-576-4705. Don't lose hope. TRA can eliminate or reduce what you owe to the IRS. Generous programs are now available that can give you a fresh start. Our passion is taxes and helping individuals fix their IRS problems. We have over 1,000 five-star reviews on Google and an A+ with the Better Business Bureau. You don't need to be afraid of the IRS any longer.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  End your tax nightmare today by visiting us online at TRA.com or call 800-576-4705. That's 800-576-4705. Tax Relief Advocates, real solutions for real people.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Imagine if every time inverse Kramer or another top investor bought a stock, you bought it too in your own brokerage account automatically. Well, that now exists and it's called autopilot. Built by the team behind the viral Pelosi stock tracker. Autopilot lets you browse their marketplace of strategies run by proven investors or AI driven models. Just find one with a high return, connect your personal brokerage account like a Schwab or Robinhood and every trade they make, you make automatically. Your money never leaves your own account. Autopilot just mirrors the moves. So now no more guessing, no more staring at charts and no more checking the market between meetings. With over 1.3 billion dollars already invested, you can find autopilot on the app store or

• 11:36Speaker 04

  go to joinautopilot.com. That's joinautopilot.com. Investing has risks like the loss of principal.

• 11:43Tucker Carlson?

  Are we sure there was a second guy?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yes, although it has been disputed.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  We're sure because first of all, 24

• 12:00Speaker 02

  ordinary people in Oklahoma City who eventually were interviewed by the FBI about the bombing run. 24 eyewitnesses saw Timothy McVeigh with a second man in the rider truck. So we know he was there. As you can remember, the investigation was a very big deal for a very long time. Journalism covered it and journalists reported, top journalists reported that the FBI had surveillance videotape because of course that's what they do in a big crime like this.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  They went out and collected all the videotape and they had John Doe too.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  With Timothy McVeigh on videotape delivering the bomb, they had videotape of the bomb exploding. The preliminary hearing for the case was held, you know, a week or so after the crime. And the videotapes were discussed there. The FBI agent on the witness stand admitted that the FBI had videotape of the delivery, of at least of the truck on its way to deliver the bomb. So we know that John Doe 2 is real.

• 13:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, now I'm really confused because I don't, I mean, why is John Doe 2 not at the top of the FBI Most Wanted list as a perpetrator of the country's worst domestic terror attack in its history?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Pretty soon, and in puzzling fashion, considering that this was the biggest manhunt in history, it was a global manhunt. There was a $2 million reward offered for the identification and capture of John Doe 2. But pretty soon, within a couple of months, the FBI began to back away from John Doe 2. They produced a new theory that John Doe 2 was a case of mistaken identity, that the

• 14:28Speaker 02

  staffer that was the basis of the sketch at the body shop was mistaken, that he was really talking about a completely innocent soldier who-

• 14:40Tucker Carlson?

  So I'm sorry to interrupt, but just to hold this up. So this is-

• 14:46Tucker Carlson?

  The flyer produced by the FBI after the terror attack.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:50Tucker Carlson?

  So I believe that turned out to be Tim McVeigh, right there.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Believe to be Timothy McVeigh. Our investigation would raise some questions about that, but yes, a look alike for Timothy McVeigh or a look alike for Timothy McVeigh.

• 15:03Tucker Carlson?

  But at least we can kind of account for this guy, whether it's the correct accounting or not.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 15:09Tucker Carlson?

  This is the sketch of John Doe number two. This, but this is produced by the feds. This is FBI.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  FBI.

• 15:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So, and this person has never been identified. No one's looking for him and the FBI is now saying he never existed.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 15:25Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Given that you had dozens of people identify this person as a person, you know, as being alive and being with Tim McVeigh, dozens of people.

• 15:38Tucker Carlson?

  And given that the FBI itself said, yeah, he existed. On what basis are they now saying he never existed?

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Well, a couple of months later, they introduced a new story. This was that the man believed to be John Doe two was this innocent soldier who had come into the body shop the day before and had somehow been mistakenly time traveled into their, into the memory of the mechanic who gave the, the info about the sketch, but that it was all just a mistake, that Timothy McVeigh was by himself. It was never a very credible explanation.

• 16:28Tucker Carlson?

  Did they identify this?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yes, they identified him. They talked to him. They, they found that, you know, he had the baseball cap that some of the witnesses had described John Doe two wearing and he was in with a friend. So the two, the two of them were together and it was somewhat.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  It was somewhat credible, or credible enough, and they were very certain and confident about it. And the story began to change.

• 17:04Tucker Carlson?

  So they said, if I'm following this, that actually some other guy and a buddy walked into the same body shop around the same time, and the guy at the body shop just misremembered and thought that that guy was with Tim McVeigh.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:19Tucker Carlson?

  But he wasn't.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:21Tucker Carlson?

  And so the FBI is now saying that Tim McVeigh did this alone?

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:23Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. How do they explain away the eyewitness testimony of people who were there at the scene and saw them both in the truck together?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Tucker, that is one of the abiding questions, never answered about this case. And as a matter of fact, years later, after the, some of the controversies that would, you know, develop, one of the top case commanders, Danny Coulson, conceded that this single fact of 24 eyewitnesses who saw John Doe 2 in the bomb truck with Timothy McVeigh is not something that can just be explained away with this new story.

• 18:14Tucker Carlson?

  I have an idea. Let's go to the videotape. There was videotape that was admitted. You said on the stand by a federal officer that they had the videotape. So that would just show where, where's the video? Have you seen the videotape?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  No one, Tucker, has seen that videotape.

• 18:31Tucker Carlson?

  In 30 years?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Outside the FBI.

• 18:35Tucker Carlson?

  In 30 years, they've never produced that?

• 18:37Speaker 02

  They've never produced it. And imagine this was an incredibly high-profile mass murder trial. Those images were not shown at the trial. The videotape was not shown at the trial.

• 18:56Tucker Carlson?

  It was not shown at the trial?

• 18:57Speaker 02

  No.

• 18:58Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Well, that's never been credibly answered by the FBI.

• 19:04Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so I just want to start as big picture as we can before we get into the details. But I'm already coming, just as an ignorant person who sort of remembers all of this, we're coming to points that are just like, don't make any sense at all on the most basic level.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  And there are many of these.

• 19:23Tucker Carlson?

  I'm aware. I'm now aware. But I want to go into this slowly because I think this is not one of, this is not the Kennedy assassination. This is not something on which there have been 50 books written. I mean, you have written a great book on this, maybe one or two others. But most people, I don't think, as of right now, summer of 2025, have revisited this in their heads and said, actually, the Warren Commission was fake. Like, that's not, that hasn't happened.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so you have now the claim by the FBI that McVeigh did this himself. He may have had, he had help from this friend of his called Terry Nichols, who is to this day still in prison, serving life. But he was not in Oklahoma City that day, is my understanding, correct?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 20:11Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  He was in Kansas.

• 20:12Tucker Carlson?

  He was in Kansas. So they're saying that Tim McVeigh did the actual bombing totally by himself.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Rented the bomb truck in Junction City by himself, drove to Oklahoma City by himself, delivered and detonated the bomb by himself.

• 20:33Tucker Carlson?

  And then escaped by himself.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  That's the government's case. And escaped by himself.

• 20:40Tucker Carlson?

  What do they say his motive was?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  He was enraged at the government for its overreach at Waco, which was the government assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

• 21:02Tucker Carlson?

  Two years before.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  To the day. To the day, April 19, 1993, was the FBI, the final assault after an 80-some-day standoff.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Two years before Oklahoma City bombing.

• 21:21Tucker Carlson?

  That was where Janet Reno killed all those kids.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yes, there were children, there were heavy casualties for children as well as adults.

• 21:31Tucker Carlson?

  And they said Tim McVeigh was so mad about that, that he decided to bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City. Any indication as to why Oklahoma City?

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Well, Oklahoma City is, was central to an anti-government movement in the Midwest. So it, it was, it was, it was a high-profile target.

• 21:58Tucker Carlson?

  So the US dollar is not the bulwark it has been for our lifetimes. It's actually getting weaker. It's depressing, but it's true. Decades of Washington money printing, the misbehavior of the Fed has devalued the US dollar to a point that you couldn't have imagined 30 years ago. Bad decisions in Washington are making you poorer, and it should make you a little nervous, makes us a little nervous. The entire system is just backed by trust in the government, but what if no one trusts the government? So one of the results of this is that a lot of people want to invest some of their money outside the dollar system and some in crypto. They don't know where to start, though, and that's where I Trust Capital comes in. Their platform makes the crypto game easier, safer, and smarter.

• 22:43Tucker Carlson?

  You can use it to pair the long-term tax benefits or retirement account with the freedom to invest in digital assets. So there are potential big upsides here. They also offer secure, non-retirement crypto accounts. I Trust Capital uses a closed-loop security system, so if someone gets your login, they can't send your crypto to an external wallet. And if you ever need help, there's someone right there to talk to, a real person in the United States, an expert at your service. It's complicated crypto, it can be. This makes it simple. It's easy to set up an account. You can do it in minutes. You can start investing today. Click the link below or visit I trust capital.com slash Tucker. Use the promo code Tucker for an additional funding bonus.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Now more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman, Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Honey, that flu keeping you up? Did you take Nyquil intense flu?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Nah, I got this. Okay, I don't got this.

• 24:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, you need Nyquil intense flu.

• 24:08Speaker 06

  Undo your flu with Nyquil intense flu. Nyquil intense flu provides powerful relief of your flu symptoms so you can sleep.

• 24:16Speaker 05

  You do got this.

• 24:18Speaker 06

  Nyquil intense flu, the nighttime sniffling aching aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine. Uses directed, keep out of reach of children.

• 24:26Tucker Carlson?

  So the FBI backs off of its claim and then completely erases its claim that there was a second perpetrator involved working with Tim McVeigh. How hard did they look for John Doe number two?

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Well, it was a global manhunt.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  $2 million reward offered.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  All over America, people were being stopped in the street, detained in, in a few instances, arrested. So they were looking hard for a month.

• 25:04Tucker Carlson?

  Who was Tim McVeigh exactly? Timothy McVeigh?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Timothy McVeigh was a 26 year old Bronze Star ex-soldier from the Desert Storm.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Operation in Iraq. And he had come back home in 1992. This was three years before the bombing. And kind of kicked around his, uh, his home, his, where he, the home where he grew up in, uh, upstate New York. Had a couple of jobs, uh, security jobs, security, uh, work, um, but never really, never really gripped into a future after the army.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  There's a story about, he was a, a great soldier, an intense, passionate soldier. And he was offered a tryout for special forces at the end of his tour. And, uh, he, he, he had developed blisters on his feet, so the story went, and couldn't make the physical part of the tryout. So, um, he, he washed out of, of special forces. And that had been his dream. That's, that's what he, that's where he always saw himself.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  So when he came back home, security guard work wasn't satisfying. He was living with his dad, uh, and he was just, he was, he was pretty aimless at, at the time.

• 26:59Tucker Carlson?

  So how did he get from, um, being an unemployed security guard, Bronze Star winning veteran, living with his dad in upstate New York, to blowing up a federal building in Oklahoma City?

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a really curious passage. He became very political. And, um, he headed south to Florida and hooked up with one of the kind of mysterious connections that we know about in the next couple of years of his life. An retired gun dealer named Roger Moore. And he basically went on the gun show circuit.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  He would, he carried with him copies of The Turner Diaries, which is this anti-Semitic, apocalyptic novel that he was very much, and not just anti-Semitic, but, but anti-government. It was just, it was basically the story of an insurrection. And he would take this with him to gun shows and try to, you know, sell it or convince people to read it.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  He was trying to convince all his friends to read The Turner Diaries. And he just floated around it in, without knowing what really was going on in Timothy McVeigh's life for the two years that led up to the bombing. It's, it's really a puzzle. And he just, he, he lived this road warrior life, staying in motels, unexplained. I've heard somebody account for, like, it would have cost someone in, in those dollars in those days, like $50,000 to live this way.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  But we only know of him having earned like $5,000. So where did he get the rest of the money? Unaccounted for. But he just, he drove, you know, thousands of miles, stayed in motels, hit gun show circuits, and eventually, two years later, plus some months, bombed the federal building.

• 29:36Tucker Carlson?

  So we know at the time, so the government had committed a number of A couple, at least, of high-profile massacres of conservative Christian white people. One at Ruby Ridge and one at Waco. And so they were, as I recall, they were very concerned about backlash from conservative Christian white Americans becoming radicalized white supremacists, you know, Nazis, whatever that means, but like radical anti-government white people.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:09Tucker Carlson?

  That was the threat.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:11Tucker Carlson?

  In their view, in the Clinton years, the first Clinton term. And so they were trying to neutralize that threat by infiltrating those groups with federal informants.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 30:22Tucker Carlson?

  But at scale, like they were really working on this. Can we say that for certain?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. So Tim McVeigh going to all these different, you know, basically hanging around with all these people, joining the circuit of, you know, this political philosophy based in gun shows and no visible means of support. We can assume he was a federal informant, it sounds like, or may have been a federal informant.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  There's never been any record. I think, I think that would be perhaps a bit of a reach to assume he was a federal informant. It was, at least to my understanding, and there is going to be some evidence about that. But I think making that connection, the gun shows were a hangout.

• 31:18Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  You know, if you were lost and male and ex-military and seeking direction, you know, as McVeigh's attorney would argue in his defense at trial, there were a lot of people who shared his beliefs about what had happened at Waco.

• 31:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Who were seeking others, seeking a clubhouse, if you were, Will, and the gun show circuit was that place. So I think it could have been just...

• 32:00Speaker 02

  He was searching.

• 32:02Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I'm sure. But that world would have been crawling with informants.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. Crawling with informants and crawling with law enforcement.

• 32:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I mean, that's what happened to Randy Weaver, of course.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:18Tucker Carlson?

  His world was crawling with law enforcement because, again, the FBI had identified that world, that brand of politics as the main threat. Randy Weaver sold a shotgun that was like too short or something and they wanted to...

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Well, he was being pressed to be an informant and refused.

• 32:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. And so they murdered his wife and son. So, but back to Tim McVeigh. So, we don't really know what he was doing during that time, it sounds like, with any great specificity.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 32:48Tucker Carlson?

  Who was Terry Nichols?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Terry Nichols was an Army buddy of McVeigh's and he was older. He went into the service older. He was perhaps 10 years older than McVeigh, or five. But they had served together. They liked each other. And in fact, with a third soldier named Michael Fortier, who will be part of this story, the three of them served together. And after McVeigh, Nichols left the service first and then McVeigh, and they hooked up again together

• 33:36Speaker 02

  to be in the Army surplus business. So that was how they came back together after the Army.

• 33:44Tucker Carlson?

  We thought this through when we started this podcast a year ago, and we decided we're never advertising anything that we or people on our staff don't use, period. We're only... Partnering with companies that we agree with and endorse actually in our personal lives. So we want to announce a new partnership with a survival company we trust most. Last Country Supply is the name of our collaboration. Last Country Supply. I have a big surplus of survival food from that great company. If you get a bucket of food with a 25 year shelf life, 2,000 calories a day, potatoes, rice, bread, drinks, you feel a lot better. Let's say there's an EMP attack or civil disturbance and you don't

• 34:25Tucker Carlson?

  know what could happen in the future. You are prepared and you are protecting your family with Last Country Supply products. So head to lastcountrysupply.com to shop for our new collection, Bulk Up Now. There is no scenario where you will regret being prepared.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  Honey, that flu keeping you up? Yeah, I don't got this. You need NyQuil Intense Flu.

• 35:19Speaker 06

  Undo your flu symptoms with NyQuil Intense Flu. The nighttime sniffling, aching, aching fever, best sleep with a flu medicine. You do got this. Uses directed. Keep out of reach of children.

• 35:28Tucker Carlson?

  So the government alleges that the two of them, maybe with 48, hatched this plot to bomb the Murrow Building. How'd they pay for it?

• 35:38Speaker 02

  They, there's a lot that's missing about the money. And nobody ever, the investigation never succeeded in following the money in this enormous terrorist attack, which is just, remains an unsolved mystery. But, because they were both virtually penniless and, um...

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Terry Nichols had run up credit card debt and tried to declare himself exempt from, tried to give up his citizenship at one point and tried to say none of his credit card debt was valid, but they were scrambling to put together a business because they both were familiar with how the army surplus business works. So that was their plan. That was their

• 36:33Tucker Carlson?

  They had no other, so far as we know, they had no other source of income.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 36:40Tucker Carlson?

  Now we're getting into, again, stuff that doesn't make any sense because I think, not to get ahead in the story, but I think Terry Nichols made a number of trips to the Philippines, didn't he?

• 36:50Speaker 02

  He did. He traveled.

• 36:52Tucker Carlson?

  That's not as long a flight as you can take in the world. How do you pay for that?

• 36:56Speaker 02

  No one knows.

• 36:57Tucker Carlson?

  What was he doing there?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  No one knows for sure.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  He married a what? A Filipino, but he didn't take her on all of these trips.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  He, the people who investigated later found out that he reportedly took a bomb building book on one of these trips, that a Filipino terrorist turned government informant said that Terry Nichols attended a meeting on one of the islands there with Ramzi Youssef, who was plotting a terrorist attack during Nichols' last trip to the Philippines, which was in late 1994. That would have been months before the Oklahoma City bombing. So no good answers for how these guys.

• 37:55Tucker Carlson?

  Ramzi Youssef is a World Trade Center bomber.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Ninety-three.

• 37:59Tucker Carlson?

  Correct. The first World Trade Center bombing.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 38:03Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think it's possible that Ramsey Youssef met Terry Nichols?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Well, that's what this terrorist said, claimed, had happened.

• 38:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that would just be, given the Earth's population, outside the bounds of probability, correct?

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 38:25Tucker Carlson?

  Random probability.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Correct. And it was also known that, at this boarding house where Terry Nichols made many phone calls in Cebu City, it was a hangout for Islamic terrorists. So there is this very curious, intriguing, but unanswered possibility that Terry Nichols had some connection to that lobe of activity.

• 38:56Tucker Carlson?

  That would cut against the prevailing story, which was that Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh were Christian nationalists, white supremacists. You know, why would a white supremacist Christian nationalist be hanging around with Muslim terrorists in Cebu City, Philippines?

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Good question.

• 39:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's a very obvious question, but it's a question, again, we're getting to the, this is a question that has no answer.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:25Tucker Carlson?

  Terry Nichols is in prison, I believe you've interviewed him?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  I have.

• 39:30Tucker Carlson?

  Has he answered these questions?

• 39:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:32Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Terry Nichols, when Representative Dana Rohrbacher, in Congress, took up this matter and really pressed, Terry Nichols eventually bailed out of a second interview with the congressman because he said, "There is no connection between the Philippines, my travel there, and the bombing." So that's Terry Nichols' word on this.

• 40:04Tucker Carlson?

  But Terry Nichols never explained how he afforded to travel as an unemployed person trying to start an army surplus business to the Philippines multiple times, or paid for the rider truck and ammonium nitrate.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  That is right.

• 40:16Tucker Carlson?

  This just seems, now we're getting to like bonkers level unanswered questions. It's like, what did the feds say about all this in the indictment during the trial? Did they ever explain the money?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  No, this trial was basically simplified. It was political ideology. It was Timothy McVeigh, the mastermind. It was McVeigh built the bomb, delivered the bomb. And that was the end of the story.

• 40:51Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know why I'm laughing. It's, you know, it's, let me just pause and say parenthetically, if you're just a news, a hapless news consumer, as I was at the time, I was in the news business, but not covering this, just sort of reading the news every day. It's crazy what they can exclude from the story without you noticing if the story is big enough, loud enough, salacious enough. You don't ask the obvious questions, which is like, how did these two unemployed losers afford this bomb, this truck, this plot? Like, where'd the money come from?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  So true.

• 41:27Tucker Carlson?

  It is so true. I've never thought about it till right now.

• 41:32Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so another dumb question, but what was the point of the bombing exactly in the, in the feds telling? Like, what did they hope to accomplish by doing this? Did they have a manifesto? Were they starting a group? Were they?

• 41:44Speaker 02

  No manifesto. Again, the feds always pointed to McVeigh and his rage at the federal government, his, you know, his rage at Waco, his rage at the overreach of Waco. And remember, this was the Oklahoma City Federal Building, where a lot of agencies had their offices, not the FBI, but the ATF and DEA and, and other federal agencies. So that was, you know, the, the theory, the crime theory here is that this was Timothy McVeigh's revenge on the federal government for its overreach at Waco.

• 42:31Tucker Carlson?

  Did Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols ever explain their motives?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Terry Nichols basically has always steadfastly said he was the helper here, and got in way over his head and had done things. I mean, Timothy McVeigh made sure that, early on, that Terry Nichols helped him rob a quarry in Kansas of blasting caps. So he was in up to his neck, he would say, before he even knew it. And then he was helpless to say no to McVeigh. As to McVeigh, his story is the same as the government's, that it's

• 43:22Speaker 02

  revenge over Waco, and the government's overreach, and the government's attempt to take guns away from people who are entitled to hold them.

• 43:36Tucker Carlson?

  So they steal the blasting caps from a quarry, they assemble an enormous amount of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from ag companies, they spend many months apparently planning this. The government never offers or even suggests an accounting of how much they spent doing this. Is that correct?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 43:58Tucker Carlson?

  They never tell us that. And basically, they're saying that Timothy McVeigh did it with the help of Terry Nichols. But by the time the trial comes around, there's no hint of an accomplice of a John Doe number two, right?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 44:14Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So by this point, are you starting to ask yourself, well, maybe I imagined John Doe number two?

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Well, there's another, there, in that first year, Tucker, there were some other really strong indications that John Doe 2 was real. One of them, an extraordinary story, is, as you know, grand jury proceedings are completely closed, sealed, and off the record. Inside the McVeigh grand jury, there was a grand juror named Hoppy Heidelberg, who was so upset about the way the federal prosecutors were running,

• 45:05Speaker 02

  managing, steering, and, in his opinion, rigging that grand jury, that he went rogue. He began complaining to his congressman about the fact that the government was hiding evidence of John Doe 2. He became an unnamed source for the Daily Oklahoman newspaper, leaking what was going on inside the grand jury. And eventually, after the indictment came down in August of 1995,

• 45:49Speaker 02

  a couple of months later, he went fully public, wrote, well, he gave an interview. He broke rules, which could get him kicked off this grand jury. But he also wrote the judge, the federal judge, who was overseeing this grand jury, a letter in which he said, "The federal government is hiding the identity of John Doe 2. The victims of this crime deserve to know who committed this crime, who was really behind this crime. And it isn't happening." And actually petitioned the judge to empanel a new jury.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  The judge wrote back in three or four sentences, kicking Hoppy Heidelberg off the jury and warning him that if he broke the grand jury rules, he could go to jail. So there were more details.

• 46:58Tucker Carlson?

  Who was the judge?

• 46:59Speaker 02

  The judge, his name was David Russell, and he was not the judge of the McVeigh trial.

• 47:12Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  He was a different judge.

• 47:14Tucker Carlson?

  Presiding over the grand jury?

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:16Tucker Carlson?

  To produce the indictments?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:19Tucker Carlson?

  But Hoppy Heidelberg, who was the grand juror, said he believed the government knew, A, that John Doe number two existed, and B, knew his identity?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Not that he knew his identity, but knew he existed. And Hoppy Heidelberg told the, in the interview with the journalist that he gave, which he was absolutely a violation of the grand jury rules, but he was going rogue. He said, for him, the red flag of this whole scenario was the story the government put out about the soldier

• 47:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  from, who supposedly innocently

• 48:04Tucker Carlson?

  Happened to be at the rider truck rental place?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 48:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, with a buddy.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  He said, Hoppy Heidelberg said, "This was the red flag to me. That soldier didn't look anything like the John Doe two sketch." And this was a cover-up.

• 48:24Tucker Carlson?

  So one of the reasons that we know that everything you're saying is right

• 48:32Tucker Carlson?

  There was a cover up that the government knew that there was a second accomplice terrorist. John Doe number two is real is because of an incredible story that I had never heard before until someone I know told me it, which is why I wanted to do this interview with you about a man called Kenneth Trentadue, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:55Tucker Carlson?

  A construction worker from San Diego, and this is, this is all real. This story may be more than any other I've heard in a long time makes me think, you know, I'm, we have serious problems with our government. This is evil. So will you tell, who was Kenneth Trentadue?

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Kenneth Trentadue was a construction worker who had, um, in the past been, he basically had a drug problem, came back from the army in the Vietnam war era, addicted to heroin. He turned to robbery, robbery to feed his habit and eventually got arrested for bank robbery, went to prison, did his time, came out.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  He had a falling out with his probation officer over whether it was okay for him to drink a beer after a day of hard work and

• 50:07Tucker Carlson?

  He was a construction worker.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  He was a construction worker. The probation officer said, the parole officer said, no, it was a red line and Kenneth Trentadue walked away, stopped making his appointed visits with the parole officer. They, nobody was looking very hard for him for six or seven years when

• 50:29Tucker Carlson?

  What was he doing during that?

• 50:31Speaker 02

  He was working construction, putting his life back together. He married his long-term girlfriend and in 1995, they were expecting their first child. She was Hispanic. They had, he had, was coming back across the border.

• 50:53Tucker Carlson?

  Was he involved in, that we know of, crime of any kind? Or was he just a construction worker?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Just a constru-- he had totally put his life back together. He was totally on the up and up. And he, he, he crossed the border from Mexico where he had been visiting his wife's family. And he was arrested for the old parole violation.

• 51:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So they just put his name into the computer and bam, there was a warrant for the guy and they arrest him?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:22Tucker Carlson?

  Is it San Diego, the San Diego border crossing in San Diego?

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:25Tucker Carlson?

  Across from Tijuana?

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep.

• 51:29Tucker Carlson?

  So then what, it's okay, so he goes to jail on a parole violation?

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Now, a very, again, inexplicable chain of events occurs.

• 51:42Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry, when is this?

• 51:43Speaker 02

  This is June of 1995. So, two months after the Oklahoma City bombing. This is the two months in which this manhunt for John Doe 2 has been most active. It is now, in mid-June, at almost exactly the same moment that the government is beginning to back away from the John Doe 2 story and support this innocent soldier mistaken identity story. It's almost exactly that moment that Kenneth Trinidad is arrested.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  He is a dead ringer look-alike for the John Doe 2 poster. He's driving the brown truck that John Doe 2 may have driven. He's got the John Doe, he's got the tattoo on his left arm, the John Doe 2--

• 52:47Tucker Carlson?

  He looks like that guy?

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:49Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Is there any indication that he was that guy?

• 52:54Speaker 02

  There, there, there come to be some strong indications as the investigation unfolds. But at that moment, no. And he, he wasn't that guy.

• 53:09Tucker Carlson?

  But at some point, the authorities are holding this guy on a completely unrelated charge, and somebody says, notices internally, wait a second, this guy looks a lot like the John Doe number two, one imposter.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Well, that's what we assume happened. But, but what is known to have happened, and what is the remarkable chain of events that happened, is that Kenneth Trinidad, now in jail, awaiting minor penalty for the probation violation, is suddenly moved from San Diego, this is two months later, he chills in custody for two months, and, and then he is suddenly moved to Oklahoma City, 1,300 miles away.

• 54:02Tucker Carlson?

  So he's busted just randomly coming across the border from Tijuana, visiting his in-laws, and then two months later, he's on a plane, on some like federal marshal plane, to Oklahoma City?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  That's exactly what happened. And the family couldn't figure out why, they were concerned and suspicious. His crimes were all in California, his probation officer was in California, who presumably would have been a witness at that hearing, but Kenneth Trinidad is now in Oklahoma City. And just to complete the timing, this is approximately one week after the indictment came down in the McVeigh case. So he's...

• 54:56Tucker Carlson?

  So clearly, the feds think he could be John Doe number two. I mean, I think we can assume that, that's a fair assumption, it doesn't make any sense otherwise. He looks just like the one imposter, they moved him to Oklahoma City, they think that this could be John Doe number two.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  That's a reasonable assumption.

• 55:13Tucker Carlson?

  I can't think of another. What happens to Kenneth Trinidad?

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Two days after he is moved, at 3 o'clock in the morning...

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Well, first, he's moved to a special housing unit for reasons unknown. But he is in solitary confinement in a suicide-proof cell. Two days after he arrives in Oklahoma City, Kenneth Trinidad, at 3:00 in the morning, is found tortured, bloodied, and supposedly hanging in his cell.

• 55:59Tucker Carlson?

  His suicide-proof cell. He's dead. He's dead. Two days after getting to Oklahoma City. Okay. So it sounds like he was murdered.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Yes, it does.

• 56:12Tucker Carlson?

  What was the condition of his body?

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Brutalized. Brutalized. Bloody, stun-gun-like injuries on his feet, bruises, lacerations, all the signs of a terrible beating.

• 56:30Tucker Carlson?

  So he was beaten to death by the feds, it sounds like?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  It does. However, if I could just complete the picture here of how the family found out about this death, it came as a phone call to Mrs. Trinidad, his mother. And it was the associate warden to tell her that her son, Vance Paul Brockway, had killed himself. Well, this wasn't even a name she knew. She said, "I don't have a son named Vance Paul Brockway.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I do have a son named Kenneth Trinidad, who is in your facility." Once sorted out, the warden reinforced that this was her son. He was dead. He killed himself. And made a very bizarre offer of free cremation.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  And Kenneth Trinidad's mother said, "Well, I will have to speak to his wife about that." And the warden said, "Oh, well, he doesn't have a wife." And Mrs. Trinidad said, "Yes, he definitely has a wife, and he has a brother, too, who's a lawyer." So eventually, this is how Jesse Trinidad comes in to the picture.

• 58:06Tucker Carlson?

  Kenneth's brother.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  The lawyer.

• 58:08Tucker Carlson?

  Who unfortunately for the feds is a high-performing, high-intelligence, very motivated lawyer who wants to find out what happened to his brother.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And this is the X-factor in this whole story, because 99% of the prisoners who run afoul either of each other or the institution do not have families with high-powered lawyers who are intent on finding out what happened. And to your question, Tucker, about what was the state of the body when Jesse called the prison to find out himself what had happened, he, one of the first things he said was, "Do not cremate the body. Send it home. Send Kenneth home for burial."

• 59:00Speaker 02

  When the casket arrived several days later, and the family had the funeral home take the coroner's makeup off Kenneth, that's when they found these injuries. They were concealed with, under heavy makeup. And that's when the family had to see this for the first time. His throat was slashed, the stun-gun-like burns on his feet, the bruising, the lacerations, they discovered it in the funeral home.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  And Jesse, being a lawyer, hard as that had to have been, took photographs and videotape of the body for evidence.

• 59:57Tucker Carlson?

  It's very obvious it wasn't a suicide.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Very obvious.

• 1:00:01Tucker Carlson?

  So it sounds like what happened was it was a case of mistaken identity. And this guy just got swept into this hysteria into an FBI investigation and the feds beat him to death, maybe accidentally, who knows, during questioning and then tried to cover it up. You think that's what happened?

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  I think that's a reasonable assumption.

• 1:00:27Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think there's any chance he was John Doe number two?

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:00:30Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, it sounds like. So this sets the, really the reason that most people know about this story is because of his brother Jesse Trenton, who just launches into like a multi-year crusade to bring justice.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:48Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And he's the reason there was a FOIA filed to get the videotape of the actual bombings. We could find out who was in the truck with Tim McVeigh. Is that correct?

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:01:01Tucker Carlson?

  And how long has that been ongoing?

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  That has been ongoing. The FOIA was filed in 2008. It went all the way to trial in 2014. The trial was fully finished until its star witness, who an FBI whistleblower, we haven't talked about him yet, but bailed out of the trial, leading to a long and still

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  ongoing conflict over Jesse's allegation of witness tampering against the FBI.

• 1:01:50Tucker Carlson?

  So bottom line, in 30 years, despite lawsuits, a trial.

• 1:01:56Tucker Carlson?

  The FBI, the federal government has never produced this videotape.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 1:02:02Tucker Carlson?

  And they're now claiming they just don't have it somehow.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they just don't have it.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:06Tucker Carlson?

  Right, yeah. The central piece of evidence in the biggest terror attack. Uh, they just, they just don't have it. Just like they don't, they don't actually have the original moon landing footage. They just taped over it because they needed the Betamax tapes. They're just out of space. Yeah. You wonder how like, why not try harder with the lies? Do you ever wonder about that? If you're gonna lie, like, at least make them inventive so you don't patronize the person you're lying to?

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Um, wow. Uh, who do you think John Doe number two was?

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  I believe John Doe number two was one of the neo-Nazi bank robbers that Timothy McVeigh was associated with, uh, that the FBI was chasing him for from the very beginning, though somewhat off the books. They weren't telling the public they were looking for this neo-Nazi bank robbery gang, but they were looking at them. They, these investigations were connected. The, uh, they didn't know who had been robbing the, the, the bank robbers

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  to an earlier point of yours, Tucker, about following the money. These, the Aryan Republican Army, also known as the Midwest Bank Robbers to the FBI, robbed $250,000 from 22 banks in 1994, 95. That would be roughly twice that much in today's dollars. None of the money was ever found by the FBI. Once they arrested these bank robbers and they got them, you know, deposed them or they, uh, um...

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Still didn't learn where the money went, but the one of the leaders of the bank robbery game did say that he had contributed heavily to white power causes. So this was a heavy duty operation and they were intending to

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  have an insurrection. That was their intent. So they were, they were arrested basically in early 1996, but no one, no one ever connected the dots back to-

• 1:04:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I'm a little confused, or even more confused, because white supremacists, whatever those are, were the number one priority of the FBI, have been for decades, decades and decades. They hate them on many levels. And so you're saying that John Doe number two was one of these guys, one of these neo-Nazi types, but they just sort of stopped looking for him and they don't care enough to keep the investigation going into who this person was?

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't stack. I agree. And, but there, there has been a concerted effort to basically wind down the various tentacles of this investigation, rather than keeping them going. I would, I would say that's fair.

• 1:05:38Tucker Carlson?

  So from spending my life in DC, I know that when investigations pull back before achieving their goal, it's 100% of the time because the investigation is revealing wrongdoing on the part of the government.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:52Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, that, I mean, that's why-

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  That's why it happens.

• 1:05:55Tucker Carlson?

  That's why they haven't released the tapes from January 6th and never will, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So what do you think the government's wrongdoing in this case might have been?

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Well, here, and, and just to backtrack a moment, you asked me, who do I think it was? I'm-

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  There are, the names are known of this group of, you know, five or six members of the Aryan Republican Army. They're well-known. I, one of the most remarkable moments of this, the Jesse Trinidad investigation comes in, well, it begins in 2001. And if this, if this is solved, it will be partly owing to Timothy McVeigh, who sent Jesse Trinidad, who, McVeigh himself was engrossed in the Kenneth Trinidad murder. Because of course, this was a cause

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  celeb in federal prison, right? This is every prisoner's worst nightmare. And the prison slang for it came to be getting Trinidad. That's when the SWAT team comes into your cell in the middle of the night and brutalizes you and kills you. So that is what is understood in prison as getting Trinidad. Timothy McVeigh, and from his prison, wrote letters to a journalist about the Trinidad case. And so he was obviously interested in it. A few years later, he actually

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  met up with a prisoner who has played a key role in Jesse's case, who landed on death row with Timothy McVeigh and interviewed him for a book that he published from death row. But the part of the story that's relevant here is that Timothy McVeigh, in 2001, asked this death row prisoner who he knew knew Jesse, "Please tell Jesse Trinidad, this is what happened to Kenneth Trinidad. The FBI mistook him for Richard Guthrie." Richard

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Guthrie was the co-leader of the Aryan Republican Army gang. So that would be one answer.

• 1:08:37Tucker Carlson?

  Did they look alike, Guthrie and Trinidad?

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Yes, dead ringer look alike.

• 1:08:41Tucker Carlson?

  So what happened to Guthrie?

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Guthrie...

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Amazingly, wound up dead in his federal prison cell. He was prisoner number two. It was days after, days before he was going to give testimony in another of the bank robbers trials. It was shortly after he unloaded everything he knew about the insurrection they were planning to the federal prosecutors. So he had, and he told his family that he was looking forward to the future.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  He was going to give a, an interview reportedly to the LA Times. He had, he said he had written a book, and he was writing a tell-all. And all of a sudden, from his jail cell in Kentucky, he wound up hanging. So he's the second hanging, very suspicious hanging death of the second federal prisoner in this story. And there is a third, by the way.

• 1:10:01Tucker Carlson?

  Can we just pause on Guthrie for a second? It sounds like you don't believe that he killed himself. Why would he have been killed? I mean, the clear motive would be his former compatriots who are mad about his upcoming testimony.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Well, he was a federal, high-value federal prisoner. He was under the watch of the United States Marshal Service before he and his compatriots went to trial. So it's hard to imagine, and he too was in solitary confinement. So it's hard to imagine, reportedly, the FBI was threatening Richard Guthrie with charging him in the bombing. So they were reportedly very close, either knew or were close to knowing his role in the bombing.

• 1:11:01Tucker Carlson?

  Do you, I mean, based on your reporting, do you think he was John Doe number two?

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  I think, based on my reporting, I think it's either him or another member of the gang who also is a look alike for, I mean, look, we know how these composite sketches goes. They are approximations. Both Guthrie-

• 1:11:25Tucker Carlson?

  This looks like Hollywood thug.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  But you can see a bodybuilder type in this, you know, you, you get, so when you ask me, do I think it was Richard Guthrie? I believe that witnesses on the ground that morning saw the men who were with Timothy McVeigh. I believe, based on my reporting, that those men were members of the Aryan Republican Army. So I believe Richard Guthrie was there. But there was another member of that gang who was reported to be a look

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  alike for John Doe two, as much of a look alike as Richard Guthrie. So it could have been him.

• 1:12:18Tucker Carlson?

  But again, I just refer back to the government's behavior. They have been intentionally opaque on this subject. They've lied about it. I understand they killed a guy in a case of mistaken identity. I get why they wouldn't want to cop to that. I understand that. But why the lack of transparency otherwise? I don't understand why it wouldn't, like, what are they, what are they hiding?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Well, they're-

• 1:12:43Tucker Carlson?

  Pretending there was not a John Doe number two?

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  It's a good question. And my reporting, if I could take us on one-

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  One quick detail, because it is so incredible here, that there is a third prisoner in this situation who winds up in the same death scenario as Richard Guthrie and Kenneth Trinidad. And that is a man named Alden Gillis Baker. Baker came forward to Jesse two or three years after Kenneth's death. Jesse mounted a huge wrongful death lawsuit against the federal government, which went to trial in the year 2000. And he was, his

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  family was awarded a million dollars by, it's a civil trial, by a judge who couldn't, didn't, wouldn't call this a murder. He caught, he, again, lack of evidence, but he awarded the money based on the abuses against the family after the death of, the way that the whole death thing was handled. But Kenneth, but Alden Gillis Baker, while Jesse was

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  preparing for that lawsuit, came forward, he was now in a different prison, he was on the cell block with Kenneth Trinidad.

• 1:14:27Tucker Carlson?

  And who was he? Was he an Aryan Nation guy too?

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  He, no, he was a suspected serial killer, psychotic criminal. He had been in the federal prison system for seven or eight years. So he's a dangerous guy.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  He came forward to Jesse and said, after, well, that he said he had witnessed the murder. He said, he described the SWAT team coming into Kenneth's cell. He said, his death lasted about 30 minutes. He heard, you know, struggling, shouting, moaning, and then nothing. And they left the cell, the SWAT team, returning some hours later, said Baker to, and he could hear, he didn't see what happened, but he was hearing. And

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  he heard them tearing up bed sheets, which he took to be, they were basically staging a hanging. Baker came forward to Jesse, a couple of years after, while he was preparing for the wrongful death trial. And he was in a new facility. He said, "They loaded me up on drugs and shipped me to a new facility. I want to tell what happened." And Jesse's, as part of the wrongful death trial, took a deposition of Alden Gillis Baker with what

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  I've told you here, from, from his account. And he would have been a star witness at this trial. He started receiving threats. He was in a California prison. He started receiving threats from fellow inmates. He begged the prosecutor to protect him. And the prosecutor refused. And Jesse petitioned the court for a protective order for Alden

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Baker, which was never answered. And in August of 2000, two months before the trial opened, Alden Gillis Baker was found hanged in his cell. So that's how Jesse lost the star witness to Kenneth Trinidad's murder. That's unbelievable.

• 1:17:12Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just go back to Tim McVeigh for a moment and clear something up that I have read, don't know if it's true. So there was a psychiatrist, a contract employee of the CIA for many decades called Louis Joyland West, Jolly West, who was, you know, one of the people who conducted experiments with LSD and other drugs on unsuspecting civilians, one of the darkest people in the 20th century American history, also the person who declared, who declared Lee Harvey Oswald's assassin.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Jack Ruby.

• 1:17:49Tucker Carlson?

  Jack Ruby mentally ill, visited him in the, in lockup in Dallas, et cetera, et cetera, clearly sent to do that. So he's a super dark guy. I have read that he visited Tim McVeigh in jail. Is that true?

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  You know, Tucker, I've seen that reference too, but no more than you do I know, I don't know that is true or not.

• 1:18:14Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Cause if we ever find out that's true, then it's just, it is worth overthrowing the US government at that point. Cause it's just like, they're not even trying to hide it from us. Okay. So you don't know if that's true?

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  I don't know. To your point, I did take us on that detour, but I think you'll agree, it was an amazing.

• 1:18:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  Detour, but.

• 1:18:36Tucker Carlson?

  Lot of suicides in this case.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  Yes, three.

• 1:18:38Tucker Carlson?

  Lot of sad people.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Three prisoner unexplained deaths, let's say. But you had asked, well.

• 1:18:48Tucker Carlson?

  The kind of people who commit violent crimes don't typically kill themselves. I'm just saying, like, I think there's data on this. Um, you know, the kind of people who kill themselves are like, you know, sad women, accountants whose wives leave them. That's more the profile. It's not, you know, bodybuilders who are also rapists. They, they kill other people, not themselves. So it's even more unusual, I think, among that population. Just saying. Right?

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And, and we might add as a curiosity to the, trying to do hanging suicide.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Hangings are generally bloodless affairs, or nearly so. But the orderly who found Kenneth Trinidad and had to clean up the cell, not found him, was assigned to clean up the cell, described it as a bloodbath. He had to clean up the blood with a mop.

• 1:19:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. What do we know about Tim McVeigh's contact with the federal government? Like, he obviously served in the US Army. But I seem to recall a letter that he wrote his sister in which he refers to contact with the intel services?

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And you had, I did lead us astray, and you had asked, you know, what was going on here with McVeigh and the federal government? McVeigh told the story at least three places, one being the letter to the sister. He told the story of, it's a shocking claim, so I'll pause a moment here. But Timothy McVeigh, while on death row, being interviewed by that death row prisoner

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  who I mentioned, Timothy McVeigh claimed that he operated in the Oklahoma City bombing, not as a terrorist, but as an undercover federal operative. That he was basically recruited during his military service in Iraq. He told the story slightly different ways, but to the death row inmate who wrote the memoir and published this story, McVeigh said that he was recruited into an unspecified Defense Department operation, domestic...

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Surveillance operation. He gave, I interviewed three prisoners. That was, you know, once I became involved in, in this investigation. For Jesse's FOIA case, not the, not the videotapes case, but a previous FOIA. I interviewed David Hammer, Terry Nichols, and Peter Langen, who is the co-leader of the Aryan Republican Army. So, but back to what McVeigh told, he told the death row inmate that he was undercover for a, an unspecified Defense Department operation.

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  He told Terry Nichols, this is what Nichols told Jesse and me on, in Supermax. He told us that Timothy McVeigh let slip that he was undercover for the FBI. He told his sister that he had been recruited for, um, he had been recruited during that tryout for the special operations. Essentially, that scenario would be, he didn't wash out of special operations.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  He basically joined this new, uh, unit. But he, he told her that he was going to be doing domestic operations. And as a matter of fact, in 1998, the New York Times published that letter, not with much context, but yes, McVeigh made these claims after his trial.

• 1:23:28Tucker Carlson?

  Never mentioned them at trial.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Never mentioned them at trial. No.

• 1:23:33Tucker Carlson?

  This is speculation, but what, why, what would Timothy McVeigh's motive be for, you know, carrying out this terror attack at the behest of the feds?

• 1:23:47Tucker Carlson?

  Their motive would be a little bit clearer, which would be like, prove that there really is a domestic terror threat from white right wingers. Something they've been working on for a long time. But what would his motive be in staying quiet about that?

• 1:24:03Tucker Carlson?

  Why wouldn't he say, yeah, I was part of this at trial and like, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not going down for this. I was asked to do it.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  Well,

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  one explanation might be that he became radicalized during, just like a lot of people during Ruby Ridge, Waco. You know, that he was, he was at the, at the point of this operation deeply conflicted over what it was he was doing. To add one more source.

• 1:24:37Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's fair. It radicalizes me hearing about it. Got to be honest. It does.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Well, there's one more source, which I haven't seen. This story does have three or four just superb researchers who have dedicated decades to trying to figure out what happened here. And one of them wrote a book. She researched through the Texas, the University of Texas Library that has the McVeigh's attorney, Stephen Jones, donated his papers to. And she has uncovered

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  documents from his original attorneys. He was given a public defender, McVeigh was, right away. And they've immediately started trying to get out of that case because they were so conflicted. I mean, their friends had been, you know, injured their, the courthouse was damaged. They were freaked out, but he did have a brief period with them until they could find, you know, hand him off to Stephen Jones in which he told them that he had been working. This would have been his first.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Representation to his first lawyers.

• 1:25:59Tucker Carlson?

  Before trial, of course.

• 1:26:00Speaker 02

  Significant, yeah, before and before the preliminary hearing, I mean, within hours and days of the bombing. And he told his first lawyers that he had been a government operative. And he said that he was shocked at the damage done by the bomb. As if he had been there to create a demonstration with his truck in the road, not destroy the whole building. I say as if, I don't know that.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  But his, what I do know is that he told them he was shocked at the level of damage that was done.

• 1:26:49Tucker Carlson?

  Wow. Do you think it's plausible that he was telling the truth?

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  I, well, let's go back to another question of yours, which is, you know, what was going on here? Why, why is the government covering this up? And I can just tell you that it appears, based on other revelations that have come to Jesse Trinidad, because he's been the engine of this investigation, this whole investigation, Jesse, that, you know, there's, there's evidence that the government had

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  Timothy McVeigh under surveillance before this attack. And this evidence comes from an FBI whistleblower.

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  There are a lot of Marines in this story, by the way. And there's a lot of Marines do or die in this story. Jesse being one, and John Matthews, who is this FBI whistleblower, being another. And that, you know, brotherhood kind of clearly motivated Matthews to come forward to Jesse in 2011 in Salt Lake City and tell the story. It's an untold story because it's been suppressed, first by the Defense, by the Justice Department bearing

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  down on Newsweek Magazine, which was going to publish this story, of Matthews' work for the FBI in an undercover program called PATCON, short for Patriot Conspiracy, in the 1990s, before and after, covering before and after the Oklahoma City bombing, which was a sweeping infiltration program. Matthews was a Vietnam vet, went to Nicaragua with

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  the, you know, the Iran-Contra operation, I mean, to train, and now found himself in PATCON. And it was, as he told Jesse on the phone, "much bigger and uglier than you can imagine." I want to tell you about this. He was alienated by this program because he said it was inciting the violence that it was supposed to be preventing. So, and he was with PATCON for like, eight years. So, long answer to your question, what could

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  have been going on here. Matthews believes, so from his knowledge of PATCON, Matthews told Jesse, first, that he believed PATCON was, he believed Oklahoma City was a PATCON operation. He denied working the operation. He was based in Arizona, but Arizona is another lobe of the McVeigh, the run-up to the bombing. McVeigh stayed and lived in Kingman, Oklahoma,

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Kingman, Arizona, and Michael Fortier lived in Kingman, Arizona. But, but back to what John Matthews knew.

• 1:30:49Tucker Carlson?

  The whistleblower.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  The whistleblower and the potential here for the FBI having had McVeigh under surveillance is that Matthews told Jesse that he saw Timothy McVeigh with another member of this, let's say, at least satellite member of this Aryan Republican Army group, not a member of the gang, but one of them. He saw the McVeigh together with that guy at a military training in San Saba, Texas in 1994. He was working PATCON surveillance

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  at the time. So, we know that PATCON surveilled McVeigh months before the bombing. And there are many other...

• 1:31:47Tucker Carlson?

  So, why didn't they stop it?

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  They, they didn't stop it. They tried to stop it.

• 1:31:53Tucker Carlson?

  The feds?

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:56Tucker Carlson?

  How did they try and stop it?

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  Well, they, all the evidence, the best evidence, and I have to just say best evidence, is that they had McVeigh under surveillance, that there was a transponder on the bomb truck. Something happened.

• 1:32:18Tucker Carlson?

  There was a transponder on the bomb truck?

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  There's evidence of that, yes.

• 1:32:23Tucker Carlson?

  Like a federal transponder, like they were following him?

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:27Tucker Carlson?

  Tracking him?

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Yes. That's best evidence that they, I'm sure the government will say, no, we didn't. But a member of this, I haven't said the words, "Elohim City," but this is the location where the Aryan Republican Army hung out, hid out in eastern Oklahoma. One of those guys who may very well be, I've, I've given you a lot of names today, Tucker, so I'm trying to, to winnow the names, but he may well have been another informant.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  His name is Andreas Strassmeyer. He's a German national. He was in the country illegally on an expired visa. He's got a lot of heavy German political pedigree and intelligence training and was out front fomenting this, "Let's blow up federal buildings" out of this enclave called Elohim City in eastern Oklahoma. After the bombing, he went back to Germany and since then, he has been, had the odd

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  practice of basically issuing insider knowledge about how the bombing really went down. He was one who said, yes, the truck had a trans, he seems to know the truck had a transponder on it.

• 1:34:10Tucker Carlson?

  He's never been charged?

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  Never been charged.

• 1:34:12Tucker Carlson?

  Andreas Strassmeyer is in Elohim City, which is where all these Aryan would-be terrorists supposedly are planning the bombing of various federal buildings, including the OKC one. And the bombing comes off, biggest manhunt in history, and he just goes back to Germany and he's fine and no one ever goes after him legally?

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:34:35Tucker Carlson?

  How does that work?

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  Imagine how many leads, I think it was, I don't know, 25,000 or something, that the FBI was pursuing during the biggest manhunt in history. And, you know,

• 1:34:56Speaker 02

  Which led them to like elementary school teachers of Timothy McVeigh.

• 1:35:00Tucker Carlson?

  Right, no, totally.

• 1:35:02Speaker 02

  You know, somehow Andreas Strassmeyer was never interviewed and there are, there are markings and it's, and it can be reasonably assumed that Andreas Strassmeyer may have been an undercover informant.

• 1:35:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, I'm, you know, don't want to speculate or anything, but it seems entirely possible.

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  Coming from his, you know, political pedigree in Germany, the intelligence training, um, his patron in Washington DC, an air force colonel who was believed to have, you know, worked for the CIA, um, he, he has all of those, uh, all of those traits and, and which I'm, I must introduce one more character here. It turns out during a couple of years after the bombing and, and as a matter of fact,

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  on the eve of Timothy McVeigh's trial, this, you know, let's remember, one of the lessons of this story is just the uncuriosity of the national news media. They were taking their spoon fed story from the DOJ in Washington DC while this Oklahoma news reporter was beating the bushes. And he found, his name is JD Cash, he's one of the heroes of this story and became very close to Jesse. He found.

• 1:36:51Speaker 02

  An undercover informant, whose name was Carol Howe, who was embedded inside the bomb plot for eight months in the run-up to the Oklahoma City bombing.

• 1:37:08Tucker Carlson?

  The successful bomb plot.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  Correct. This, she was embedded at Elohim City in eastern Oklahoma, the hideout of the Aryan Republican Army, where Andreas Strassmeyer was the militia leader, the paramilitary trainer. And she told the FBI afterward, well, she told her handlers during the run-up, before the bombing. This is why the survivors of the victims who know about this are so outraged.

• 1:37:51Speaker 02

  She told of his, you know, in late September, October, Strassmeyer said, "It's time to stop talking and start blowing up federal buildings." And he took, and she went along on at least one, and maybe as many as three, these apparently scouting missions to Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City was on the short list of targets, one, you know, as well as two buildings in Tulsa.

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  But, um, yes, she told them that he was planning this, you know, that there was going to be a bombing and it might be the federal building in Oklahoma City. So, and they knew this, the FBI, now, she was an informant for the ATF, not the FBI, but the FBI debriefed her right after the bombing.

• 1:38:54Tucker Carlson?

  And she was never charged.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  She was charged, not, she was charged in reprisal, basically, for going public about this afterwards. What would she have been, what were you thinking she would be charged with?

• 1:39:12Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, she was an accessory to the, to the bombing, it sounds like.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  She was an informant.

• 1:39:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, but she was also, of course, but I mean, like, strictly speaking, she was part of the plotting, correct?

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  She, no, she was, she was an observer. She was an observer.

• 1:39:27Tucker Carlson?

  Oh. I have a theory of this case, and I want to throw it out to you against your superior knowledge. But before I do that, can we just pull back and assess the political effects of all of this for a second?

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:39:42Tucker Carlson?

  So Oklahoma City happens in April of 1995. Clinton is totally focused on his reelection at that point. Things are about to get super, things are about to get really crazy in his life with the Monica Lewinsky stuff. And there's just a lot going on in America at this point. And Clinton's worried about it. He's unpopular. Oklahoma City happens. What happens to Bill Clinton's political career?

• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  This saved his political career. He was, you know, I mean, everybody remembers him as the great comforter in chief, going to Oklahoma City and in a, you know, almost ministerial way.

• 1:40:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  You know, comforting the victims. And then it was possible to, you know, pass, in Washington, they could pass new legislation. The FBI's budget was increased to, you know,

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  Prevent to, you know, prevent terroristic attacks. I mean, it was, you know, it was the beginning of, uh, it wasn't, we saw this after nine 11. But yes, it, it was a great boon for the Clinton presidency.

• 1:41:04Tucker Carlson?

  And it, and as you said, it was a great boon for federal law enforcement who got more money and more power.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:41:10Tucker Carlson?

  But the irony is just, just like the FBI and CIA got more money and more power after nine 11, which they allowed to happen, obviously. I mean, they, whether they allowed it to happen or not on purpose, but it happened on their watch. They were paid to prevent it from happening. It happened anyway, but they got richer, more powerful as a result. Their screw up helped them.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:30Tucker Carlson?

  And that's true here as well.

• 1:41:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:33Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. So here's my theory. My theory is that the federal various agencies, ATF, FBI, maybe, maybe others were, um, fully aware that this plot was in progress. They may or may not have wanted it to happen, probably not at the scale it actually did happen, who knows? They weren't fully in charge of it, but they knew that it was going on and they thought they could kind of fine tune it. They couldn't.

• 1:42:06Tucker Carlson?

  It went off, it killed a lot of people, and then they just kind of made the best of it from there, hid their own involvement in it, wound up murdering a guy, hid that. Their number one goal was to protect themselves. Their number two goal was to infiltrate white supremacist groups. And none of this has come out really to the public, despite a number of books, first and foremost yours and the efforts of Jesse Trent to do because the American news media is totally vested in denying any of this and pretending that the real threat is these. Fringe groups. That's my theory.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  Absolutely, Tucker.

• 1:42:44Tucker Carlson?

  You think that's right?

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  I do. I do. And this story is such, it's so much about the failure of the news media and how they had 30 years to ask the hard questions about Oklahoma City. And instead, they actually helped bury this story along with the victims of the bombing. I, just a couple of instances of this, I mean, because it's been a long investigation,

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  but literally in 1997, on the eve of the Timothy McVeigh trial, at this time when the Oklahoma journalists discovered the informant, ABC deployed a news team to get that story, to get the Carol How story. And they did with the help of J.D. Cash, the Oklahoma journalist. They got it in the can. And the day of air, the Department of Justice bore down on the

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  ABC network and they killed the story.

• 1:44:12Tucker Carlson?

  Was it a Jackie Judd story? Do you know?

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  No, it was Tom Jerrill.

• 1:44:18Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 1:44:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Tom Jerrill afterwards told the producer, who's one of Jesse's crew, another Marine, told him that in all his career, he had never seen anything like this, that they were totally blindsided. And Roger, being a Marine, his producing partner knew that he was tight with Colonel David Hackworth, who was Newsweek's military affairs correspondent. He said, "Call Hack. See if you can get yourself on the Don Imus Show." So this story that was rolled by ABC News was broken by Roger.

• 1:45:01Speaker 02

  On Don Imus's radio show in New York City.

• 1:45:07Tucker Carlson?

  Right, which is a great way to bury and discredit true things. Roll them out on Don Imus, you know, no one will pay, you know, people sort of, what? And then move on to something else.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  But then, again, however many years later, 13, 14 years later, they had this, another chance to bring this to the national media when Jesse set John Matthews up with

• 1:45:35Tucker Carlson?

  The whistleblower.

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  The whistleblower, John Matthews, up with Newsweek for a cover story. And at the time, and I'm sure you know John Solomon.

• 1:45:45Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:45:45Speaker 02

  John Solomon was the editor on that story. And they got everything in the can, including their reporting confirmed that Andreas Strassmeyer, the German that the FBI never interviewed, that he was a, an undercover operative working for Pat Con. So

• 1:46:14Tucker Carlson?

  Did that, did that run?

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  No. None of that information ran.

• 1:46:19Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Because just as back in 1997, the Department of Justice bore down on Newsweek magazine and its editor, Tina Brown, and the night before the story aired, every detail, including, as I told you, the sighting by John Matthews in San Saba, Texas, all gone, all removed.

• 1:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why? And Tina Brown made that decision, so far as you know?

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  As far, I

• 1:46:52Tucker Carlson?

  Somebody at the publication made that decision.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:54Tucker Carlson?

  Why would?

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  It was an executive edit.

• 1:46:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right. If it was Tina Brown, I don't, I used to work for Tina Brown, I, I would be sad to hear that. That's pretty craven. I would not be surprised in the slightest, but I would be sad. I don't know that. But it sounds like somebody made that decision. So why would a news organization cave to the DOJ on something like that? I don't really understand.

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  Perhaps by threats? I mean, the, I didn't hear any

• 1:47:19Tucker Carlson?

  Profanity comes immediately to mind. I mean, if I got a call from DOJ saying, you can't say that.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  In the first case, I did hear an explanation from Roger Charles, who worked on that story that was killed. And he said that the principals were calling, this is, you know, the network. And what was said was, if this story runs, it will be the end of the ATF, and there will be machine guns on every corner. And that was enough for the executives in New York to say, we can't go there.

• 1:47:58Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So it's going to get in the way of gun control. So don't do it. There's a larger goal here, which is disarming the population. Okay, whatever you want. Right? No, it's, it's, I, yeah, we could do hours because you spent your life in the media, as I have, and just the corruption of it is just, it's beyond belief. But everyone knows that. I guess what I would say is that by not covering stories like this, you allow new ones to occur. So this was 1995. Then you have 2001, 9/11. You have 2021, January 6th. Both, you know, Phil, those stories, the stories that we were presented on television

• 1:48:43Tucker Carlson?

  are just not true. And the government involved in really sinister ways in both. And a lot of others, I mean, in between. The Gretchen Whitmer assassination attack, where like, everybody involved seemed to be a fed.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  That's a huge alignment to that story. And I would mention one more, Tucker, which was new to me as I researched, is that the Boston Marathon bombing has spun out.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  A whole spiral of possibilities that the older brother, the one who was killed, was an FBI undercover operative. And there's a book written about that. And Dana Rohrbacher, the same congressman who tried to look-

• 1:49:37Tucker Carlson?

  From Orange County, California.

• 1:49:38Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. He pressed with a House investigation into the Oklahoma City bombing and the possible German connections. I mean, looking, among other things, at Andreas Strassmeyer. He continued to look at the same picture after the Boston Marathon bombing and just faced stonewalling from some of the same people. I mean, Janet Napolitano, who was involved in the Oklahoma City bombing case, was one of the ones stonewalling him.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  And Robert Mueller, who, of course, was involved in Jesse's case, trying to get justice for Kenneth on Capitol Hill, that's another whole story. But, yes, to your point about what has happened since the bombing, because the Oklahoma City bombing, because we don't know what really happened and the potential for this creeping surveillance cancer that

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  seems to, you know, attach to so many of these terrible events where we still don't fully understand what happened.

• 1:51:11Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask one last question? So now Pam Bondi is the Attorney General, Cash Patel runs FBI, Dan Bongino right beneath him. I mean, there are people who say they're reform-minded. I think Bongino is reform-minded, for the record. But, you know, there are people of good faith, I think, in positions of authority in federal law enforcement now. What should they immediately declassify, disclose, stop efforts to hide about the Oklahoma City bombing 30 years ago that could resolve all these questions? Like, what should we know that we don't?

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  Release the videotapes of the bombing. Let America see this movie. As well, and maybe just as important, maybe more important, Jesse has a letter on Attorney General Bondi's desk as of March, which says, "Stop the DOJ resistance to unsealing the FBI whistleblower's

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  deposition." This is where, potentially, he laid out the entire scope of the PATCON program, which nobody knows about. On the record, the FBI will say, "Oh, PATCON was just this little operation we had, just lasted for two years, and it was just targeting three extremist right-wing groups." No. John Matthews, their top spy, says, "I worked PATCON for eight years, and I infiltrated 22 groups." And he says PATCON was run out of the White House, and...

• 1:53:06Speaker 02

  Pat Con was even involved in Waco and Pat Con was a precursor to Fast and Furious that included gun walking, illegal ammunition and gun sales. You know, it was a, it was an octopus of a surveillance program. And that was 19, that was the 1990s and the lid has been kept on it while all these other things happened that we are talking about and perhaps might have been prevented.

• 1:53:44Tucker Carlson?

  It'd be interesting to know what's going on now. I mean, as someone who's been in, you know, around right wingers his whole life, I don't know a lot of potential bombers, you know, not kind of that, that sort of right winger, but you wonder how many people, I mean, if the government has decided that everyone to the right of Chuck Schumer is a security risk, like, and they have, anyone who opposes our program is a security risk. Anyone who's not on board with totally destroying the country is our enemy and that's their view for sure, then you wonder how many people they are collecting information from, how many people they are sending money to, how many people are in effect federal informants at some level at some time in their lives.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  I did some research on this for the last chapter of the book and I'm-

• 1:54:34Tucker Carlson?

  I could think of a few, by the way, I've always wondered, people I know personally, like, what is, what is that person?

• 1:54:38Speaker 02

  It's a staggering prospect and the, the, the latest stats that I heard was that on any given day, the FBI has 15,000 informants out there working, um, in the, spending like over $40 million a year on this and, and think about what it is their, their frontline jobs bad enough, like betraying their families, friends and work associates, but then-

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  To complete their projects, they're committing crimes and sometime and their managers are looking the other way and nobody seems to be keeping tabs on this, which has definitely increased exponentially since nine 11.

• 1:55:34Tucker Carlson?

  Has there been any reform at all in the past six months that you've noticed? Cause I haven't noticed any reform at all.

• 1:55:40Speaker 02

  No, no. And we both know that, again, it's this slow walk. The allegation of from the January 6 detainees is that that there is a heavy infiltration by the federal government. And this has been battered around Capitol Hill.

• 1:56:06Tucker Carlson?

  Why can't we get an answer?

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  Chuck Grassley and someone else have have a letter now on the desk.

• 1:56:19Tucker Carlson?

  Why should they have a letter? I mean, Republicans control the Department of Justice. So I don't understand what the motive is here. I mean, you know.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  Well, this could be.

• 1:56:31Tucker Carlson?

  How many, how many federal law enforcement officials and or informants were in the crowd on, on January 6th? Simple question. Why, why can't we get that answered? And I don't understand it. It's not enough to pardon people. It's like, what the hell just happened? And what are they doing now? And why can't I know? I live here. I'm a citizen. No? Do you feel the frustration?

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And maybe this is the answer to your question. What can Attorney General Bondi's Department of Justice do right now? Well, answer that question.

• 1:57:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I really appreciate you taking all this time. It's an amazing story. If you had told me two years ago that there was something weird behind Oklahoma City, I, I would have been really surprised, but it turns out everything about it was weird.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  Tucker, thank you.

• 1:57:16Tucker Carlson?

  And they murdered a guy and got away with it. At least one. Thank you very much.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 1:57:27Tucker Carlson?

  We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor. Hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter. Telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching.