Pod Insights You're Dead to Me Catherine de’ Medici (Radio Edit) About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century France by Dr Estelle Paranque and comedian Shaparak Khorsandi to learn all about controversial queen Catherine de’ Medici.
Catherine’s life was dramatic from the moment she was born: orphaned when she was just a few weeks old, she was brought up by her uncle the Pope, and her childhood was shaped by the tumultuous politics of Renaissance Florence. At fourteen, she was married to the son of the king of France and shipped off to the French court, only to find herself involved in a literal ménage à trois with her teenage husband’s older mistress. But after her husband became king – and even more so after he died and her sons ruled France – Catherine came into her power as queen and later queen mother. And through her children and the marriages she organised for them, Catherine’s influence was even felt beyond the borders of France. She even corresponded with Tudor queen Elizabeth I!
This episode traces Catherine’s tumultuous personal and political life from orphaned child to grandmother of Europe, exploring along the way the terror of the French Wars of Religion, and asking whether the dark legend of Catherine 'the serpent queen' is deserved, or whether she has been misunderstood by history.
This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Hannah Cusworth
Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands
Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: James Cook
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:52 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing out crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In history corner, she's associate professor in early modern history at North Eastern University, London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of the incredible Blood, Fire and Gold: The Story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome, Estelle.
2:29 Speaker 05 Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Catherine.
2:32 Greg Jenner? And in comedy corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You've seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, Have the News For You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaperone, Sandy.
2:54 Speaker 06 Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment, I thought, I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I am an expert and read my book, Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it. Because that's how intelligent I am.
3:16 Greg Jenner? You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person.
3:19 Speaker 06 It all went through that genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me.
3:23 Speaker 05 That's brilliant.
3:25 Greg Jenner? Okay. Well, we've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast.
3:28 Speaker 05 I don't think I can, you know, do Chappie. I love your work, but I don't think I can be as funny as you. I'm sorry.
3:34 Speaker 06 All right. Well, neither can I.
3:36 Greg Jenner? Do you know the name Catherine de Medici? She's quite famous from history, but...
3:40 Speaker 06 I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de Medici and not de Medici. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go.
3:57 Greg Jenner? She is Italian. Well...
3:58 Speaker 06 She is Italian.
3:59 Greg Jenner? Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So, what do you know?
4:08 Greg Jenner? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary, Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilization VI. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out? And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Shappi, actually. Did the name ring a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation?
4:53 Speaker 06 Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals, they didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status.
5:03 Speaker 05 So the Medici family were bankers and they rose to power and prominence.
5:08 Speaker 06 So good people.
5:09 Speaker 05 Yes.
5:10 Speaker 06 Morally sound.
5:12 Speaker 05 They became very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries. And Catherine de Medici is going to born into that very important family, but also very scheming family.
5:30 Greg Jenner? Yeah. And Florence is their home.
5:32 Speaker 05 Florence is their home, and they're going to become Dukes of Florence and Grandes of Tuscany.
5:38 Greg Jenner? So Catherine was born Caterina?
5:40 Speaker 05 Yeah.
5:41 Greg Jenner? So your question, Shappi, about she Catherine?
5:43 Speaker 05 Yes, she was born Caterina, Caterina de Medici. Her father is Lorenzo II de Medici, and he was, he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, the Pope. But he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke.
6:00 Speaker 06 So sorry, so his uncle, the Pope?
6:03 Speaker 05 Is giving him a title.
6:05 Speaker 06 That he wasn't his to give?
6:07 Greg Jenner? Yes.
6:08 Speaker 06 It's like stealing a dress from your neighbour and giving it to your wife.
6:12 Greg Jenner? Yeah. And then saying, you now need to move into that house.
6:14 Speaker 06 Yeah, you now need to go. Go and fight the neighbour.
6:17 Speaker 05 But you have to put into context of Italian wars. So when I say, like, let's be fair to him and the Pope, it was contested.
6:24 Greg Jenner? They're into the second Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble, who is royal.
6:31 Speaker 05 Yes, she's royal, Madeleine de la Tour d'Uverne. So she, she is from-
6:34 Speaker 06 Oh, can you say that again, slowly?
6:36 Speaker 05 Madeleine de la Tour d'Uverne. To be fair, I love, I know, I love that name.
6:41 Speaker 06 Beautiful language.
6:42 Speaker 05 I know, it's like I've said je t'aime to you, right?
6:46 Speaker 05 But Madeleine is from French blood, so she's a very important royal woman.
6:50 Greg Jenner? So we can imagine that her childhood, Caterina's childhood, would be-
6:54 Speaker 05 Amazing.
6:54 Greg Jenner? Amazing, luxurious, glamorous? Not the case, Estelle?
6:58 Speaker 05 Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Caterina, she lost both her parents. So she, her mother died. Honestly, we say fever, it's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbino, died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old, she was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth.
7:25 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
7:25 Speaker 05 But what's tragic, I think, for Caterina is the fact that then she's going to be taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after.
7:34 Speaker 06 God, they're not a very robust family, are they?
7:37 Greg Jenner? No, it's, I mean-
7:38 Speaker 05 Then she's going to be with her aunt. And again, she's going to die as well. So, and the Pope-
7:43 Greg Jenner? Her great uncle, isn't it?
7:44 Speaker 05 The great uncle is going to make sure that she is protected and well educated.
7:50 Speaker 06 What was his name?
7:51 Greg Jenner? Pope Clement VII.
7:52 Speaker 06 Uncle Pope. Uncle Ken.
7:55 Speaker 05 It's a life of turmoil and of great heartbreaks. She lost everyone she loved or could have loved, and she was massively a political pawn.
8:04 Greg Jenner? So how do you think the Pope, her uncle Clement VII, secures her, her future? She's a young woman, she's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan?
8:15 Speaker 06 Oh, you know what, I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence, self-defense classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Is that, am I right?
8:33 Greg Jenner? So to marry off?
8:34 Speaker 06 Some bozo is found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong.
8:38 Speaker 05 No, don't, don't wish you were wrong, because I don't think it's, she fell in love.
8:43 Speaker 06 Okay.
8:44 Speaker 05 She's gonna have a wedding in Marseille, in Notre Dame de la Garde, this little girl who lost everyone.
8:50 Greg Jenner? His name is Henri, right?
8:51 Speaker 05 Henri, yeah.
8:52 Greg Jenner? Yeah, okay, okay, all right, I'm not gonna honk my problematic marriage klaxon.
8:55 Speaker 05 Sorry.
8:56 Greg Jenner? I'm gonna, but I am gonna say, fourteen is very young, just psychologically and developmentally.
9:01 Speaker 05 At that time it's...
9:02 Greg Jenner? But at a time, I understand.
9:03 Speaker 06 Well, actually, between us and anyone listening, it's also, it's also the age my grandmother got married, so...
9:08 Greg Jenner? Oh, really? Okay, all right. We can, we can perhaps update the name, because she was Caterina de Medici.
9:13 Speaker 05 And then she...
9:14 Greg Jenner? But now she's Catherine.
9:15 Speaker 05 Or Catherine.
9:16 Greg Jenner? Okay, okay.
9:18 Speaker 05 No.
9:19 Greg Jenner? No, that's fine, that's fair. Catherine, okay. So we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri, they're first set up by the Pope, already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight, but then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage, it's all very late, Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate, because this lady is Diane, Diana, de Poitiers.
9:37 Speaker 05 Diane de Poitiers, yes. So this woman is very important, she's a noble woman, and she's a widow. She's gonna become the tutor of Henry, the young man, she's gonna teach him, she was supposed to teach him...
9:50 Speaker 06 Is he a bit Macron?
9:52 Greg Jenner? Well, she's nineteen...
9:54 Speaker 05 He's totally Macron.
9:55 Greg Jenner? She's nineteen years older.
9:56 Speaker 05 Yeah, nineteen years old, totally Macron. And she's gonna teach him more than languages and classical studies, and she's gonna become his lover.
10:04 Speaker 06 Okay.
10:05 Speaker 05 She's queen in all but name.
10:07 Greg Jenner? And the problem, of course, from a, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child, so she can't provide the heir that is needed, and so that's the pressure as well.
10:20 Speaker 05 Indeed, she's not conceiving, but what's gonna be very interesting, so obviously they're gonna try all the treatments possible for this, including like drinking donkey's urine, but what happened was Catherine heard all the rumours against her, because she couldn't conceive, so she goes to see the king, Francis the First, François Premier. And she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine, but you can be genuine and smart, all right? I understand it's not good for you to have me as your daughter-in-law. And because I love you, you know, I'm paraphrasing, because I love you so much and respect you so much. And you're like a father to me. I will accept whatever you want to do with me.
11:03 Speaker 05 I put my fate in your hands. And François, who had thought about the king of getting rid of her. Because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough really for Henry.
11:14 Greg Jenner? I see.
11:15 Speaker 05 He's thinking, wait a minute. This woman is very devoted to me, to my family. And he really liked her. They enjoy hunting together, they were riding together. She's someone who's very close to the king. And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. But the problem is going to tell her, but we have a problem, Catherine. I need you to give me, well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty. Because it's a very important theme, right? In the 16th century, as we know, to have, you know, a full dynasty. And that's where, for Diane, Diane is starting to be scared. Because right now, she only has a little girl, young teenager. And she can fully control her. But what if we get a new wife? It's a new princess. She's more beautiful. Henry becomes in love with her.
12:00 Speaker 05 So then Diane is going to help Catherine. And that's why I want to tell you guys, she helps Catherine conceive.
12:07 Greg Jenner? Post-vest.
12:07 Speaker 05 As soon as Diane helped the couple, it worked.
12:11 Greg Jenner? And they have how many children?
12:12 Speaker 05 Ten.
12:13 Greg Jenner? Ten.
12:13 Speaker 05 Seven are going to become adults.
12:15 Greg Jenner? Yeah. So the 10 children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the 10 children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are François, Charles, Henri, Hercule.
12:24 Speaker 05 Who becomes François as well.
12:25 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
12:26 Speaker 05 Yeah.
12:26 Greg Jenner? And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude and Margaret. Yeah. So who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip the Second of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty, Chappie. Ten kids, seven survive. But in 1547, King François the First died. So the kind of the king who had sort of taken her under his wing and taught her to ride.
12:47 Speaker 06 Another person on her side that died.
12:48 Greg Jenner? Yeah, that's it. So, but she is elevated. Her husband is now the king of France, so she is the queen of France.
12:54 Speaker 05 Yeah, but Diane is the queen.
12:57 Greg Jenner? Ah, come on.
12:58 Speaker 05 I know.
12:59 Greg Jenner? Is this where we find Catherine de Medici, queen consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?
13:06 Speaker 05 If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the backseat, right? She's never shining during his reign. Towards the end, yes, she's gonna play a very important role.
13:15 Greg Jenner? Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Francois's, to the Duke of Guise's niece, and her name is famous to history. She's Mary, Queen of Scots.
13:23 Speaker 06 Oh.
13:24 Greg Jenner? Her daughter-in-law is Mary, Queen of Scots, Catherine.
13:27 Speaker 06 Oh, that's adorable.
13:29 Greg Jenner? Yeah. But we'll do Mary another day, different episode.
13:32 Speaker 06 That blows my mind that Catherine and Mary, Queen of Scots, hung out.
13:37 Greg Jenner? Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another O, the occult. Chappie, have you ever heard of Nostradamus?
13:44 Speaker 06 Yes.
13:46 Greg Jenner? Nostradamus was one of her advisers.
13:47 Speaker 06 No.
13:48 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
13:49 Speaker 06 My knowledge of history is so Swiss cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before.
13:57 Greg Jenner? Yeah, he does feel very medieval.
13:58 Speaker 05 To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't.
14:00 Greg Jenner? But he's banging around at the French court for some reason.
14:03 Speaker 06 Yeah. Just like, imagine that, wandering around, oi, Nostradamus, just gonna have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short?
14:10 Speaker 05 Ostry.
14:11 Speaker 06 Ostry. Darmus?
14:14 Speaker 05 Darmus, Darmus, Damus.
14:15 Greg Jenner? Nobby.
14:16 Speaker 06 Nobby.
14:18 Greg Jenner? In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesies to his queen. He says, "The young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death." Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's gonna die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust.
14:54 Speaker 05 Yeah, and then he wants a revenge, so he does it again. And this time it goes through his eye.
14:59 Greg Jenner? Yeah. The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain, and he...
15:04 Speaker 05 He died in 10 days.
15:06 Greg Jenner? Henri, her husband, is dead, which means Diane de Poitiers, out.
15:10 Speaker 05 Yes, that's, that's the revenge.
15:11 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
15:12 Speaker 05 Diane is out, and she sends a letter to Catherine to apologize for all the years of humiliations. Yes.
15:19 Greg Jenner? So Henri is dead, the king is dead, long live the king, her son is now a king.
15:23 Speaker 05 And Mary Stuart is queen of France.
15:25 Greg Jenner? Right, so Mary, Queen of Scots is now Queen of France. Francois is king of France, but he's only fifteen. Chappie, you've got teenage, you've got a teenage boy.
15:34 Speaker 06 I've got a teenage boy who is very into politics.
15:37 Greg Jenner? Okay.
15:38 Speaker 06 And.
15:38 Greg Jenner? How would he do at ruling the country?
15:40 Speaker 06 I think at fifteen, he would build really interesting town centres.
15:47 Greg Jenner? So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother Catherine de Medici, who's now really running the show?
15:54 Speaker 05 Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Stuart's family, the Guises. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles, the Guises.
16:05 Greg Jenner? So the Guises, G U I S E S.
16:07 Speaker 05 Yes, the Guises. But Catherine is gonna try, she's gonna fight to remain an advisor to her son. And he's gonna accept this. But their relationship between her firstborn and herself, they're good, they're not very strong. He also really loved, I think it's the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary Stuart. He really loved Mary.
16:27 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
16:28 Speaker 05 And so the, his allegiance is gonna go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France. And that is a title that has never been given before. And it's a very important title, because in the title you have queen. I want to tell you that before Francis the First had his mother, she was mother of the king.
16:52 Greg Jenner? Yes.
16:52 Speaker 05 And you see the difference between mother of the king and queen mother. And that's an importance, a title she gives herself, and that's gonna have more and more importance in the years to come.
17:02 Greg Jenner? There's also another family who are, who are jockeying at court. So we've got the, the Guises family, so that's Mary's uncles, that's the pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons, who make delicious biscuits.
17:13 Speaker 05 Funny.
17:14 Greg Jenner? They're led by Antoine, King of Navarre, which is Spain, or it's sort of near Spain, Navarre.
17:20 Speaker 05 Navarre is a small territory between Spain and France.
17:23 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
17:23 Speaker 05 And that has had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries.
17:28 Greg Jenner? So Antoine and his brother Louis Conde. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Gises family. They are, they're on opposite sides politically and religion wise, because the Bourbons are the Protestants.
17:38 Speaker 05 Yes.
17:38 Greg Jenner? And the Gises are Catholics.
17:39 Speaker 05 And they're royal blood. Both of them have like princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne.
17:46 Greg Jenner? Then more bad news, Francois II suddenly becomes very un Welsh appy.
17:50 Speaker 05 Yeah.
17:50 Greg Jenner? And Catherine, having seen her, well, seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen.
17:56 Speaker 06 Her big boy.
17:57 Speaker 05 Yeah.
17:57 Greg Jenner? And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to one king and trying to prep the next one.
18:04 Speaker 05 And he's only nine.
18:05 Greg Jenner? He's nine years old.
18:06 Speaker 06 Wow.
18:07 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
18:07 Speaker 06 But they're quite sensible at that age.
18:09 Greg Jenner? Well, okay, so your 15 year old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would your nine, what would a nine year old do?
18:15 Speaker 06 Ask his mummy.
18:17 Speaker 05 Exactly. You sound like Catherine.
18:20 Greg Jenner? Yeah, okay.
18:20 Speaker 06 I sound like a mother.
18:22 Greg Jenner? Yeah. Which son is this then?
18:24 Speaker 05 It's Charles. It's going to be Charles IX of France. He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother. And Catherine, she's become the matriarch of a family.
18:35 Greg Jenner? We do now have the French wars of religion.
18:37 Speaker 05 Yes.
18:38 Greg Jenner? And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here, but they kill over 2 million people.
18:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, over 30.
18:47 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
18:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean.
18:48 Greg Jenner? Over three decades, sure, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and
18:53 Speaker 05 Protestants.
18:54 Greg Jenner? Huguenot. And Catherine's sort of reign, I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling.
18:58 Speaker 05 She's ruling at that.
18:59 Greg Jenner? She rules.
19:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, she's, she's.
19:01 Greg Jenner? We have to, we have to now put this into the context of the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially, and then there's a peace treaty.
19:12 Speaker 05 And then they start again.
19:13 Greg Jenner? And then they start again.
19:14 Speaker 05 They always start again. There's always a mean way. That's one thing about Catherine, like her dark legend, and even you see it in the Serpent Queen, is like she's the one instigating those wars. And she's not. It's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant turmoil.
19:31 Greg Jenner? It's expensive, it's terrifying, you can't trust who's on your team.
19:33 Speaker 05 Exactly.
19:34 Greg Jenner? You don't want wars ever. But the, so we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vasy. Where the Huguenots.
19:41 Speaker 05 It's the Guises who are gonna kill the Huguenots for worshipping. Vassys is in their territory in Lorraine. And on their way back to Juinville, they're gonna see that the Huguenots are worshipping, not outside of the town, but inside the town. And it's against the law. And they decide to kill all of them.
20:01 Greg Jenner? The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Enleone in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Enboise.
20:07 Speaker 05 Yes.
20:08 Greg Jenner? And then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598.
20:12 Speaker 05 So from 1562 to 1598.
20:15 Greg Jenner? This is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between.
20:19 Speaker 05 And her sons, yeah.
20:20 Greg Jenner? And her sons, yeah.
20:21 Speaker 05 They don't have peace.
20:22 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. The horrifying event, the key event is called Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572.
20:31 Speaker 05 Yeah.
20:32 Greg Jenner? Catherine is often blamed for this.
20:34 Speaker 05 Absolutely. So in this massacre, is that she wants to bring peace to France and she's gonna give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is gonna happen in Paris and they're gonna invite all the Protestants. So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate the wedding. And so far, so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August.
20:58 Greg Jenner? 1572, isn't it?
21:00 Speaker 05 1572, thank you, Greg. The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563.
21:07 Greg Jenner? Because he'd been assassinated.
21:08 Speaker 05 He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Colligny. He's gonna ask for refuge to Catherine de Medici, who's gonna grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies and they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants, thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris. It goes to Rouen, it goes to different cities. And Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it.
21:37 Speaker 05 Catherine is the one who organised it, who plotted it. When Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son, to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Worsingham.
21:50 Greg Jenner? Oh, yeah.
21:51 Speaker 05 The English ambassador of Elizabeth I.
21:54 Greg Jenner? There's no one in the 16th century who's a nice person in power. Like, you have to be cruel.
21:59 Speaker 05 You have to be ruthless.
22:00 Greg Jenner? You have to be ruthless, so let's just...
22:01 Speaker 05 To survive.
22:02 Greg Jenner? Yeah. 1574, King Charles dies, her son dies again. She's now on to her third son.
22:08 Speaker 05 Yes.
22:09 Greg Jenner? Another Henri.
22:09 Speaker 05 Always a spare.
22:10 Greg Jenner? So you've got Henri, he's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Chappie, do you know why?
22:17 Speaker 06 Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens.
22:23 Speaker 06 Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he?
22:27 Greg Jenner? No, weirdly, he was King of Poland for a bit.
22:30 Speaker 06 Oh, well, we all do do work in just as King of Poland. I've been King of Poland.
22:34 Greg Jenner? It's like the Duke of Edinburgh award. So Esther, can you tell us about Henri, the new, new, new king of France?
22:41 Speaker 05 And with the third of France. He was elected King of Poland. And when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful because...
22:51 Greg Jenner? Can you imagine being ditched by your king?
22:53 Speaker 05 No, but exactly, no, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here because he was like, oh my, Catherine was like, come back here. And he's like, they're not going to be happy.
23:03 Greg Jenner? So Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's, you know, still mother of the king, but she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed François, Duke of Annecy. But Francis Hercule sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands. So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe.
23:28 Speaker 05 She is the grandmother of Europe, yeah.
23:30 Greg Jenner? She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know.
23:32 Speaker 05 Well, she's the grandmother of the inventors of Spain.
23:34 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
23:34 Speaker 05 Because she married her first daughter to Philip II.
23:37 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
23:37 Speaker 05 And they had two daughters.
23:39 Greg Jenner? And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? Yeah, France and Spain are superpowers.
23:42 Speaker 05 And then she has people in Lorraine, in Tuscany. Like, she is the grandmother of Europe.
23:47 Greg Jenner? And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly, but she, you know, she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid 1580s or so?
23:56 Speaker 05 Well, for her, it's very hard because in 1585, there's the Eighth Religious Civil War that is triggered, obviously, by the death of her son, her last son. Also, you have to realise that now, you know, she's counting their kids. Oh, my God, and they're still Henry. But Henry and herself, so her favourite son, are going to drift apart because Henry III is going to make a secret alliance with Elizabeth I because he understands now that the Protestants don't want his crown, but the Guises and Mary Stuart want much power in Europe.
24:27 Greg Jenner? Right.
24:28 Speaker 05 So he's going to make a secret alliance and Catherine is going to get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith ultimately in France. And Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing. He's going to order the murder of the Guises and Catherine de Meche is going to know that's the end. I think she really gets very ill at that time. So it's December 1588, she gets very ill and she has nowhere to recover because the country is in, honestly, it's hell. France is hell at that point. And she dies on the 5th January 1589. And I'm so glad she didn't see her favourite son, the beautiful Henry, murdered. He's murdered a few months later, in August 1589.
25:12 Greg Jenner? Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he?
25:13 Speaker 05 He's assassinated.
25:14 Greg Jenner? So she dies aged 69. France still ripped apart by a religious war. Her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabilising influence? But she's not managed to stabilise everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty?
25:29 Speaker 05 It ends because, obviously, Henry dies in 1589 as well. It's the end of the Valois and then you have Henri de Navarre with his wife Margaret of Valois, who become king and queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty.
25:43 Greg Jenner? It's a life and a half, isn't it, Chappie?
25:44 Speaker 05 It is.
25:45 Greg Jenner? We've gone through there.
25:46 Speaker 06 Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered.
25:52 Speaker 06 Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill?
25:58 Speaker 05 Yeah.
25:59 Speaker 06 Just breed puppies. Wow.
26:01 Speaker 05 I know.
26:02 Greg Jenner? But you know, but the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world.
26:07 Speaker 05 Absolutely.
26:07 Speaker 06 She clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was like related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful.
26:22 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
26:22 Speaker 06 That's the only way she would, like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love, they feel power is the only thing that will sate them. And as we all know, that always leads to disaster.
26:34 Greg Jenner? Yes.
26:35 Speaker 05 It does. It does.
26:36 Greg Jenner? Well, there we go.
26:37 Speaker 06 That's quite wise of me.
26:38 Greg Jenner? That was very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The nuance window.
26:49 Greg Jenner? Right, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Chappie and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr Estelle.
27:03 Speaker 05 Well, I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the dark queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children, but also her grandchildren. She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, the Spanish granddaughters. She sent them gifts, monkeys, part of these gifts. I know, quite, quite unusual. Not unusual for the time, if I'm really honest with you. She was not perfect and Greg, you were totally right to point it out. To be in power, you have to be ruthless. But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created, you know, all the wars of religion. When you look at French books, it's always like Catherine
27:45 Speaker 05 de Medici's fault. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately, that, you know, prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century gravely. So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and would try to do her best for France and her family.
28:06 Greg Jenner? Thank you very much. Beautifully said.
28:08 Speaker 06 That was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your passion for her.
28:14 Speaker 05 Thank you.
28:14 Speaker 06 It's been lovely and you've made me like her too.
28:17 Speaker 05 I'm so happy.
28:19 Greg Jenner? Okay, well, thank you so much, Estelle, thank you, Chappie. And listener, if you want to hear more of Chappie, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags-to-riches tale, or of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Agitaine. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we had the excellent Dr Estelle Perronc from North Eastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle.
28:54 Speaker 05 Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun, honestly.
28:57 Greg Jenner? And in comedy corner, we had the sensational Chapparack Cusandi. Thank you, Chappie.
29:01 Speaker 06 Thank you so much. It's been fab.
29:03 Greg Jenner? And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go invent the Giza biscuit to rival the Bourbons. Bye.
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31:07 Speaker 00 It's the film that convinced Americans the Second World War was worth fighting.
31:12 Speaker 03 A reason to be in Hollywood that is really quite a terrifying situation.
31:17 Speaker 00 And its production is an extraordinary story in itself. Ronald Reagan had been named as the potential lead. Join me, Mischa Glenny, and three expert guests for a special live edition of In Our Time, where we discuss Casablanca. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
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