240. Question Time: Should Britain nationalise its railways?

How is Modi silencing journalists in India? What is the case for imposing a voting age limit? What does the Maldives changing relationship with China spell for the region? Rory and Alastair answer all these questions and more in this week's Question Time. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP ELECTION TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Election Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com Pre-order Alastair's new children's books: https://lnkfi.re/sJJcp0 Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:05Speaker 02

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• 1:10Speaker 03

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• 1:23Speaker 04

  Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

• 1:59Speaker 02

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• 2:06Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks. Made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks. Now made with no artificial dyes.

• 2:41Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me Rory Stewart.

• 2:44Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Asda Campbell. And Rory, can I start with an apology?

• 2:48Rory Stewart?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:49Alastair Campbell?

  Not to you. Well, I guess to you partly because you know, I don't like getting my facts wrong.

• 2:53Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 2:53Alastair Campbell?

  Liz Trump, no relation, as Brits listening in Brussels.

• 2:57Rory Stewart?

  What a great name, Liz Trump. That's a great name.

• 3:01Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I mean, it's sort of if Truss and Trump had a baby. I mean, oh God, no horrible thought. Liz Trump, as Brits listening in Brussels, we love your podcast. We ended up shouting in the kitchen whilst listening to your latest episode in which you discussed female authors. Amelie Nottem is Belgian, not French. She was born in our commune of Eterbek. Also famous for the European institutions Stromme, Herge, Marwan Fellaini and Herman van Rumpy. Who's Marwan Fellaini, Rory?

• 3:29Rory Stewart?

  I don't know.

• 3:30Alastair Campbell?

  He's a footballer, Rory. I knew that one. So anyway, I really do apologize, Liz. And you weren't the only one to get in touch to say that I assumed Amelie was French. She is Belgian. That means that my favorite French language current writer, my favorite current football manager, Vincent Kompany, and my favorite all time singer, Jack Brel, are all Belgians. So I hope that makes up for my faux pas.

• 3:55Rory Stewart?

  But we will have to do something on Belgium.

• 3:57Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, we should.

• 3:57Rory Stewart?

  I mean, I think she goes on to say, love to hear your thoughts on how a country can exist and function so well despite half the population not being able to understand the other half, Flemish stroke French. With an elite professional class in Brussels able to provide bilingual education, hence access to all the best, highest paid jobs which demand two or three languages. Also, why is it the Brits are so poor at languages compared to the rest of Europe?

• 4:18Alastair Campbell?

  I can mention another book there. My friend, Tom Baldwin and Mark Sears have co-written. Tom's the guy who wrote the book about Keir Starmer. They've written another book now called England and it's about seven myths. That have sort of, you know, driven our politics to the place that it's in and the country. And I think, you know, the answer to the question, why Britain's so poor at languages is because we just assume that we're superior.

• 4:39Rory Stewart?

  Right. We must do something on Belgium. I think it'd be fun to do something about it. Listen, here's a question on the Maldives from Kerry. Can you please discuss the recent election in the Maldives and what it might mean for their relationship with China? Quick explainer before I come to you on the election. So Maldives, tiny place, 500,000 people and a massive kind of Cold War between India and China, where quite literally the Chinese will build some enormous bridge called the China Maldives Bridge, and then India will build an even more enormous bridge called the India Maldives Bridge. And it's become vital because China sees this island as being a great refueling point and strategic base

• 5:22Rory Stewart?

  in the sea. And of course, India, who's much closer to Maldives, also sees it as vital for its maritime security. The country's basically an island that makes most of its money off tourism. I mean, like 95% of its money off tourism. Lovely place. I think to go on holiday. Not that I haven't actually been there. Have you been there?

• 5:39Alastair Campbell?

  No, no.

• 5:41Rory Stewart?

  No. Maybe we should, maybe we should go to Maldives to follow.

• 5:44Alastair Campbell?

  So we're going to, we're going to do Belgium and now we're going to do special rest is part of the Maldives.

• 5:49Rory Stewart?

  Right. That's right. Important to follow. Anyway, and China, of course, tends to spend more money than India has poured in more money, but because India's closer, it's, it's able to put more ratcheting on security. And this has translated into political parties in the Maldives basically being very nakedly either pro-China or pro-India. And my understanding is the pro-Chinese party in the Maldives just won a landslide. Is that right?

• 6:13Alastair Campbell?

  They have, they, I mean, the, essentially, this is a big win for, for Beijing. So the president, Mohammed Muetsu, absolute landslide. They won 70 out of 93 seats.

• 6:27Alastair Campbell?

  Which means they've got massive control. And as you say, it was pretty much, there are obviously lots of different domestic issues. But the opposition party, the M D P, led by an ex-president, a guy called Ibrahim Mohammed Soleh, who we've talked about before, he is seen as very, very pro India. And he won fifteen seats against sixty five. So that is all a big, big yes thumbs up to the president's plan to plow ahead with much, much closer cooperation with China. And, you know, that is, that's quite a big deal.

• 7:03Rory Stewart?

  And I think, just a reminder of something we've, we sometimes talk about. I mean, so the Chinese economy is obviously in big, big trouble. It's going to struggle to grow. Huge problems around the property market, huge problems around aging. But it would be a real mistake to conclude from that, that China's international power is really waning. In fact, what we can see with these kinds of things, and in many other places around the world, that China is still the second largest economy in the world, the largest exporter in the world, the largest manufacturer in the world. And even if it's getting older and its economy isn't growing so fast, it continues to increase its power dramatically in many, many parts of the world. And we've seen that, you know, it still remains very strong in Africa. And I would argue, has actually strengthened its position against

• 7:48Rory Stewart?

  the US in Africa over the last four years. So there's a lot going on here, as you can imagine, in the states of everybody trying to talk about how China's economy is weak. But it reminds me a little bit of people saying, you know, this was something Obama did, saying Russia's economy was so weak, and it was getting so old in twenty fourteen, that it wasn't really a threat to the world. This idea that there's a direct connection between your economic growth and your demography, and whether or not you're a major security player, I think is a mistake. I think, I think China is, is actually, even as its economy struggles to grow, I think it's, it's flexing its international muscles more and more.

• 8:28Alastair Campbell?

  And there is, there is a security element to this as well, as there was in the recent election in the, in the Solomon Islands. And the government has actually asked There are many, many Indian military personnel who are there and they operate Indian Renaissance aircraft to essentially patrolling the country's borders. And the president has asked them to leave. Now, where are they going to get that security from in the future? Well, maybe they'll go to China.

• 8:53Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 8:53Alastair Campbell?

  So these things, we may think of a small country that's rightly obsessed about climate change because that's such a sort of existential threat. But all of these smaller countries now are, tend to be caught up in these bigger geostrategic struggles. By the way, just to briefly on Modi, Rory, I don't know if you saw it, I sent you a thing about an Australian journalist, television journalist, who's been essentially kicked out of India because they don't like the reporting.

• 9:20Rory Stewart?

  I suddenly got just a very, very thin glimpse into Modi's cyber warriors when I was critical about Modi on The Rest is Politics with you a couple of weeks ago.

• 9:30Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Rory Stewart?

  It is impressive, or slightly worrying.

• 9:34Alastair Campbell?

  Both.

• 9:34Rory Stewart?

  What an incredible social media army he has to attack anyone who dares to criticize.

• 9:40Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. I suspect that means that we, that Sadiq Khan will be getting the same treatment because of course he was quite critical, wasn't he, when we interviewed him on Leading the other day?

• 9:48Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah, that'll be interesting for him. You were in Singapore and here's a question about Singapore from somebody called Martin. You just got back from Singapore.

• 9:56Alastair Campbell?

  Yep.

• 9:56Rory Stewart?

  Both of you have wax lyrical in your praise of Singapore's approach to government. It would be nice to hear alongside this praise, the acknowledgement that it's a pseudo-democracy that's been ruled by a single family for almost its entire existence. How do you balance your praise for Singapore with its notorious intolerance of dissent that would be viewed as routine in any actual democracy? I don't think he means routine, maybe something outrageous in any actual democracy.

• 10:19Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the first point about the family, so Lee Kuan Yew, the original founder, it is true that his son is the current prime minister who is stepping down. But you'd be very hard pressed to find anybody, including well beyond Singapore, who doesn't think that Lee Kuan Yew was an extraordinary leader and who built this incredible success story. And likewise, anybody who's ever met the son, Lee Siang Loong, who is about to go, he's a pretty, he's one of the cleverest political leaders I've ever met. So I don't think you could say he's only there because he is the son. And likewise, there have been other prime ministers in between, and there's going to be another

• 11:01Alastair Campbell?

  one starting soon, Lawrence Wong. And I think that sometimes is, I can see why, from a purely Western perspective, you can say, well, you know, they have pretty, pretty easy time with the media, they, they're a pretty government, this is very, very strong government and so forth. But it's certainly not, it is a democracy in that there are opposition parties who are in parliament, who have freedom to campaign and do campaign. And I must, I must, Rory, can I briefly read you a letter? You know, we, I told you recently that one of my favourite ministers out there, a guy called, called Shan by everybody, but he's the Minister of Law, Kay Shan McGann. Was he the guy that kindly was reading my book?

• 11:44Alastair Campbell?

  He was reading your book and he told you how he was sending pictures of pages of your book to colleagues in the civil service and in the ministries and in the government to say, this is, you know, he just, he loved the book. And anyway, the reason I, I wanted to draw him to your attention again, is because The Economist did an editorial recently about Singapore that was very much on the lines of our Questioner, very, very, you know, questioning a lot about Singapore's success and standards, et cetera. So let me just read you his, Shan's Facebook post. "The Economist cannot resist sneering. It's an instinct lodged deep in the unconscious of the British commentary class. They cannot stand that a people they were accustomed to lecturing are now doing better than they are across the board."

• 12:30Alastair Campbell?

  Take governance. Lawrence Wong will be our fourth Prime Minister in fifty nine years. Meanwhile, in the UK, Mr Rishi Sunak is their fourth Prime Minister in four point nine years. Mr Boris Johnson, when he was Prime Minister, accepted a holiday worth fifteen thousand pounds and fifty thousand pounds for renovations from donors. In Singapore, anyone who did that would have been charged in court. All the economy, we started as a British colony with per capita GDP of five hundred American dollars. Now it's more than eighty thousand. We have the fifth highest GDP per capita in the world, well ahead of the UK. On our media, The Economist refers to our docile press. It obviously prefers a situation like in the UK, where one person can control major media outlets and have politicians pay court to him, and where media owners can influence

• 13:13Alastair Campbell?

  who gets elected and who becomes Prime Minister. A similar situation in Australia was described by a former Prime Minister as a cancer on democracy. And he goes on and on and on, finally says, "In social cohesion, in the UK, a Tory party donor recently said of a black MP that looking at her makes him want to hate all black women. His party said, 'Or should us move on from the comments, that's it.' In Singapore, a person who made such a comment would be charged in court. What price you sneer." Pretty good.

• 13:42Rory Stewart?

  There we are. We should link to The Economist article, which makes clearly the other case on this. But it's it's an interesting thing. I mean, I was, obviously, I'm speaking to you from Yale, where I'm teaching at the moment, and I've got a Rwandan student here who makes similar arguments for Rwanda, which has had a very, very impressive economic development story since the nineties, along with an authoritarian government. And it's it's a real question, and repeated again and again through the developing world, which is, if a government is able to deliver really dramatic improvements in people's social and economic conditions, and does it with a more authoritarian, less democratic method of government, how do you get your head around that?

• 14:23Rory Stewart?

  Because we were brought up to believe that there was an easy going together, no choices to be made, that liberal democracy and economic growth were natural partners. But of course, most dramatically of all, China is a situation where seven hundred million people were lifted out of extreme poverty. There's been this most incredible economic growth without there being a democracy. And I think this is one of the issues when You know, when you look at opinion polls in the Middle East and in Africa, people increasingly will say that they prefer the Singaporean system or the system in Dubai, for example, which is another authoritarian state, to Britain, France, the United States. So it's a really raw nerve where I think those of us that believe in liberal democracy need to make a much, much clearer, better case.

• 15:07Alastair Campbell?

  You know, we've talked before and I've written about John Major's speech that he made a while back, you know, in democracy, we trust, question mark. And he basically says, there is an arrogance to the democracies that we assume that we're just better. And the feeling I always get when I go to Singapore is when you talk to people, the politicians, they are very, very, very conscious, in a way that I think a lot of our politicians are not, of delivery. In other words, they feel if they have to be delivering according to the priorities that they've set out, they have to be delivering good public services, they have to be delivering on the economy and so forth. And they are very, very, very conscious of the arguments that are pushed their way by the opposition. And also, you do have to look at where they are in the world.

• 15:51Alastair Campbell?

  Very, very different place to where we are. And so I think it's easy, as Sean says, it is easy to sneer and it is easy to make the case that, you know, they're not necessarily running the same way that our democracy does. But at the same time, I think in terms of where they've come from to where they've got to as a democracy is a very, very impressive story.

• 16:10Rory Stewart?

  Listen, I mean, there are serious constraints on the media and serious constraints on other political parties, but one of their biggest achievements was on corruption. I mean, it's made it a very, very powerful example in a region where there is endemic corruption, that Singapore basically managed to eliminate corruption almost entirely. I mean, it's less corrupt than Britain. Here's a little nerdy question from Kieran Ward that I liked because sometimes people want us to talk about the nerdy details of politics. Does the House of Commons have a seating plan? I often see my MP Chris Elmore standing by the Speaker and many other MPs squeezed like sardines on the benches. I know the front bench obviously sits in an order but not sure how it works in the rows behind. The truth is, there's absolutely no seating

• 16:52Rory Stewart?

  plan. And the benches are deliberately designed to not be able to hold all the MPs, because when it was bombed during the war, there was an idea of going back to a system of actually having enough room for everybody. And Churchill said, no, he really liked the sense to hubbub. So I spent a lot of my early years sitting on the stairs, not actually on a chair. And even when you're a Cabinet Minister, there's no seating plan. I mean, broadly speaking, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor get to sit in the middle, the more senior ministers.

• 17:23Alastair Campbell?

  I think you're overlooking the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Oliver Dowden. I think the Deputy Prime Minister might get there as well.

• 17:29Rory Stewart?

  Always overlooking the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Oliver Dowden. But otherwise, you come in and you squeeze in. And a lot of it, of course, is so your constituents can see you on telly. So there was a lot of push. You'll notice often behind the Prime Minister or behind the leader of the opposition will be the sort of rising stars of the party that people want to get on television and show. And in the early days of Cameron's government, it was often an opportunity for Cameron to show diversity in the new intake with the people that he would sit behind him and they would be captured on the media.

• 17:59Alastair Campbell?

  I used to get very angry if ever there was a shot of the of the front bench, say, whether it was Tony Blair or a minister at the front bench, if the Commons was busy and there were no women or people of colour behind. I think that was something we thought of. But there is a sort of informal plasmo. I know that, for example, across the, so you've got the, where you've got the dispatch box, and then the Dennis Skinner, who is an absolute veteran, used to always have the same place. And every other MP-

• 18:27Rory Stewart?

  The beast of Bolsover.

• 18:29Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. Every other MP, if they were sitting there, knew that if he came in, they would move up. Likewise, I think Ted Heath had a place when he was on the back benches that, I think Theresa May has now. I think I noticed that she always sits in the same place. And I wonder if she's already established that if she comes into the Commons and somebody's sitting there, they sort of, they shuffle up a bit.

• 18:46Rory Stewart?

  That's right. Very senior people. And the father of the house- Often had a kind of set position. But no, you're right. I mean, apart from these kind of few kind of legendary big figures, the rest of us largely kind of Squeeze in where you can. Shuffling. Although we try to, I mean, Jacob Rees-Mogg made a sort of system right from the moment he arrived of has this incredible kind of lounging where he's almost lying on the bench and he used to sit right at the end of the chamber, kind of sort of drag himself, unfold himself onto his feet.

• 19:17Rory Stewart?

  And then you've got the whips who often stand behind the speaker's chair. So they can't be seen from the television cameras, trying to sort of whip up people into these kind of football chants. So you can see them kind of conducting from the back of the speaker's chair, trying to get people to shout, yeah, yeah.

• 19:34Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, Rory, loads more questions to come. Take a quick break.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Botox, onabotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away. As difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

• 20:40Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks. Now made with no artificial dyes.

• 21:08Speaker 06

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• 21:29Alastair Campbell?

  Now here's one from Sal, which has been, um, the issue has been angering me for days. Why on earth would Labour dismiss out of hand Europe's offer to talk about free movement for 80 to 30 year olds for four years? Sal goes on, I'm thinking of ending my membership and voting Lib Dem because of this, though I know it will be a wasted vote in my constituency. It's so infuriating. I guess the straight answer to the question, why on earth would Labour dismiss it out of hand is because they, they don't want anything which allows the Tories to make a big deal about Labour trying to shift their position on Europe because that will then allow them to, as it were, reopen the Brexit debate. I agree with Sal.

• 22:11Alastair Campbell?

  I think that to dismiss it out of hand at a time when there is so much, there are so many difficulties arriving from the Brexit, the government's Brexit deal that have to be fixed, I found very, very depressing.

• 22:25Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's heartbreaking. It's, it's absolutely heartbreaking. I mean, and, and it's such a good proposal and it's such a defensible proposal and it, it hits a particular group of people in a really useful way. I guess the only thing I, presumably Keir Starmer might have been a bit annoyed with the timing. I mean, would, he presumably would have liked Europe to have consulted a bit more closely on when they announced this and how they made this offer.

• 22:48Alastair Campbell?

  But, but then, then again, I don't, I don't know. I don't know is the answer to that. I, but, but it slightly worries me that at some point, there is going to have to be some kind of pivot towards a position that says Brexit is not working. It's damaging us economically. Our number one mission is growth. We're going to have to address some of these issues. But I also think for, I hear so many young people saying they don't feel that the political parties. Understand them, care about them, get their issues and so forth. I think the Tories go on, I mean, that ridiculous David Frost had a piece the other day saying, you know, we've got to stop a Labour government, otherwise there is a risk of them undoing our greatest achievement, which was Brexit.

• 23:31Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, if you're honestly saying Brexit was your greatest achievement, but the point is that it's got to be addressed at some point. We're going into the election with this as a massive elephant in the room.

• 23:40Rory Stewart?

  One thing that I think we need to do more of, you know, people like you and me who want a much closer relationship with Europe and would like Labour to announce that rejoining the Customs Union, et cetera, is to use some of the Brexiteers' words against them. Jacob Rees-Mogg's been out there saying essentially the problem is that Brexit wasn't done right. But what he really means by that needs to be made clear, which is that they had a fantasy that once they left the European Union, they would go for this incredible kind of low-tax, deregulated.

• 24:12Alastair Campbell?

  Singapore on Thames.

• 24:14Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, Singapore on Thames stuff. And of course, what has turned out to be the case is there's no support for that in Britain. I mean, people broadly speaking have a pretty socially democratic vision of their country. They want to continue to support the NHS, they're trying to, yeah, essentially support the kind of British values that have underlaid the British States since the 40s. And so, and the other thing is that they were betting, the Brexiteers were betting on a much closer relationship with China. They kept saying, you know, China's growing much more quickly than Europe. And but of course, the whole security situation's changed since then. And now the whole push is to de-risk and decouple from places like China and to be closer to your nearest allies because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So the whole world's changed since Brexit.

• 24:59Rory Stewart?

  I mean, somehow we're going to have to land that.

• 25:03Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I can honestly say that there is nothing that is going to stop me vote Labour in the next election, okay? I am going to vote Labour in the next election. But I know quite a lot of people who are instinctively pro-Labour. Who unless there is some sort of signal, some of these issues on which Labour require, particularly Brexit in Europe, but also issues like, you know, the voting system, the political system and so forth, I think they're, I think they're taking quite a lot of people for granted.

• 25:29Rory Stewart?

  That's the problem, that the voters will feel that Labour thinks, oh, well, you know, kind of progressive liberals are going to vote for us anyway, so we don't have to do any policies for them.

• 25:37Alastair Campbell?

  Now, there is a question here, so there's me being very negative about Labour, one that will give me an opportunity to be a little bit more positive. Jenny, have the private railways failed passengers? Over the weekend, it was revealed that performance targets for train operators have seemingly been lowered in order to reward companies despite record constellations and falling standards. Bosses and shareholders are taking home millions from the taxpayer. Is this waste of money acceptable? Now, we're recording this on Tuesday, and I think it's on Thursday that Louise Hague, who's the Shadow Transport Secretary, is setting out what I, what sounds to me like quite an exciting thing, because I think it's, I think we are going to get the promise

• 26:17Alastair Campbell?

  of a new Railways Act in the First King's Speech, and at the heart, publicly owned, accountable, arms-length Great British Railways. Now, I don't know any more than that, I just know that, but I think actually that, I mean, I do think that our railways, every time I'm on a railway and a train, whether it's in Italy, it's in Germany, or it's France, or it's Scandinavia, they are just so much better than ours and cheaper. So I think if Labour have got a thought-through plan to get a grip of our railways, the devil will be in the detail, but I'm very, very glad that it's, it looks like it's going to be slammed right into the centre of the agenda.

• 26:55Rory Stewart?

  I was quite proud of a piece that we did in our recent podcast on Canada, and I was talking to a Canadian politician who said, the way in which Canada's a bit like Britain is that it's a country that is really struggling to get its productivity sorted out, really struggling, it's sort of underperforming compared to places like the US, and really beginning to worry about how it's going to fund public services, because without the growth and productivity, it's never getting the tax revenue to really keep going, things that Canadians care deeply about, like their health service, et cetera.

• 27:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Rory Stewart?

  And that's, I think, the challenge, isn't it, for countries like Canada and Britain? Why are we underperforming? How do you turn this around? Because if you don't manage to turn it around, we're facing a horrible situation, because you're right, trains are a disgrace. But so's health.

• 27:46Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 27:47Rory Stewart?

  Huge problems in education, prisons, and we just keep going, right? And that's going to be the the really big, interesting challenge for Labour. Are they going to be able to to deal with this?

• 27:58Alastair Campbell?

  On the healthy, I had a meeting, the Royal Free, my local hospital. There are these charities attached to them. And it was fascinating to talk to them about the extent to which the fundraising that they're involved in is helping to deliver really, really significant healthcare projects that you and I and most people probably think are just being paid for by the state. So, you know, I you're absolutely right. These are all services that are going to have face massive challenges. One of the other things I understand in this new Labour transport plan, which I think will be welcomed by people like Sadiq and Andy Burnham and and the other elected mayors, is that they are going to give much more, give a bigger role within the rail network

• 28:42Alastair Campbell?

  to the leaders of the devolved authorities as well. So all I know is what I've said to you, but I I think it it sounds quite an interesting move and I and I think will be, hopefully, will will, you know, be another sort of flagship policy that Labour will be able to say makes them different to the to the Tories.

• 28:58Rory Stewart?

  Very good. What's the jolly last one from you?

• 29:00Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, I've got one here, Rory. I've got one for you. Patsy Heller, I very much enjoyed the leading interview with Sadiq Khan, but I was disappointed by Rory's summary, which felt more negative than the interview himself. Surely he is not voting for Susan Hall? I think we should be told. Now, come on, Rory, you can't just keep sitting on fences. Your bum will get sore.

• 29:21Rory Stewart?

  Gosh, it's I mean, it's it's really depressing. I mean, so so A, look, I ran against Sadiq Khan. So I obviously think there are problems with him as mayor. But I've been trying to work out who I would vote for in that election. So I got, honestly, I got excited for a moment by the Green candidate. I mean, you know, we're getting through our doors in London at the moment, all this literature from different people. And I thought, well, may maybe the Green candidates, way to go. And then I read the Green candidates thing, and it was such sort of boring, bland, unconvincing

• 29:51Alastair Campbell?

  Right, so the Greens are out. Susan, is Susan Hall out? Is she out of your reckoning?

• 29:56Rory Stewart?

  I think it's unlikely I will vote for Susan Hall. Yeah. But I'd be interested to see what people think because I, you know, I think it's a difficult thing to say because I'm very, very, you know, I can see a lot to like about Sadiq Khan. But I don't think he's, he's the world's greatest mayor. And I just, I'm just a bit disappointed by the whole bunch of the candidates.

• 30:15Alastair Campbell?

  Roy, you can't, as a, as a sort of somebody who's committed to politics as a vital part of our national life, you can't not vote.

• 30:22Rory Stewart?

  No, no, no, that's why I was looking at the green. Anyway.

• 30:27Alastair Campbell?

  And also, but it is in the end because of this ridiculous new voting system, which you and I both think they shouldn't have allowed.

• 30:33Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Alastair Campbell?

  And which, in the end, it is, the choice is Sadiq or Susan.

• 30:38Rory Stewart?

  He loves this phrase, it's a two horse race. He doesn't want people like me looking at people like the greens, does he?

• 30:43Alastair Campbell?

  So which horse are you backing? You've got to back a horse, Roy. Patsy wants you to back a horse.

• 30:49Rory Stewart?

  Go on, go on. Here's, here's my final thing. Stephen, should anyone above the age of 70 be allowed to vote? Alistair, you're, you're a great one for young people voting. What do you think about old people voting?

• 30:59Alastair Campbell?

  I am a great one for young people, but I'll be, I'll be 70 in three years' time. So I, I hope so. But I do think there's, I think there's a case for weighted voting. There definitely was a case for weighted voting in the Brexit referendum. Should have had three votes for 16 to 30, two votes for 30 to 60, and one vote for above 60. That would have been a great voting system.

• 31:20Rory Stewart?

  I'm, I'm going to make a boring principled objection to that, which is democracy is based on the absolute equality of every individual and everybody having the same weighted weight.

• 31:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but Roy, we're living unprecedented times, unprecedented times.

• 31:32Rory Stewart?

  All right. Okay, Alistair, thank you very much.

• 31:35Alastair Campbell?

  All the best.

• 31:36Rory Stewart?

  Bye.