The Return of Gwyneth Paltrow (‘Marty Supreme’)

Gwyneth Paltrow, now and forever, reigns supreme. Watch this conversation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cmw7uhQw0M on YouTube. We discuss her return to acting in Josh Safdie’s Marty Supreme https://a24films.com/films/marty-supreme (7:45), the personal parallels that shaped her portrayal of 1930s movie star Kay Stone (8:00), and memories of her early years at the Williamstown Theatre Festival (12:14). Then, Paltrow reflects on the “fast-moving train” that followed her breakout roles in Se7en, Hard Eight, and Emma (30:05), the sexism she encountered in Hollywood (32:35), and how her sense of self shifted after winning the Academy Award for Shakespeare in Love at just twenty-six (35:00). On the back-half, we revisit the making of The Royal Tenenbaums (41:40), her decision to step away from acting to build Goop (49:30), why she continues to advocate for wellness practices today (57:30), and what she imagines the next chapter of her life and work might hold (1:00:18). Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Stan Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:32Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor and entrepreneur, Gwyneth Paltrow. I was thinking, if I were to ask the next 10 people I saw, "What comes to mind when I say the name Gwyneth Paltrow?", I think it's more likely that I get 10 different responses than two or three are the same. And I think that's because there's something elusive and unknowable about her, despite the steady stream of tabloid interest she's endured since the early 90s. Of course, there's the early remarkable self-assured work in films like Seven, Hard Eight, Great Expectations, the Oscar for Shakespeare in Love that she won at just 26 years old, followed by a mix of drama, comedies, and blockbusters that just about any actor would

• 1:16Sam Fragoso?

  envy, from The Talented Mr. Ripley to The Royal Tannenbombs, to her work in the Iron Man franchise. And yet, there are many listening to this right now who believe I've buried the lead, because at the height of her career and the peak of her powers, so we thought, she stepped away from acting and into Goop, first a newsletter, then a company that has generated more praise, criticism, and debate within the health and wellness community than I was prepared to research for. To be fair, I still did do the research. Since 2016, Paltrow has served as CEO of Goop, which, along with being a mother of two, has taken up a majority of her time over the past decade. But thankfully for us, she makes her triumphant return in

• 2:00Sam Fragoso?

  the new film Marty Supreme. Set in 1952 New York, it centers around a fast-talking dreamer named Marty Mauser, played by Tim Chalamet, who's determined to turn table tennis into a global phenomenon. That's where Paltrow, as Kay Stone, enters the story. A former movie star from the 30s and 40s, who has since traded that life for the comfort and security of marriage to a wealthy industrialist. "There are many parallels between us," Paltrow told me. And so, we begin today's conversation with this brilliant performance and all the life away from the movies that she folded into it. We also discussed the makings of Paltrow, her roots at the Williamstown Theater Festival,

• 2:44Sam Fragoso?

  the lasting influence of her actor mother, the great Blythe Danner, the sexism she fought in Hollywood during the Weinstein era, and what she's imagining for herself in the years to come. If you'd like to watch this episode, it's now also available on YouTube. We've included a link to that video in the description of this episode. Once you're there, you'll also find some recent conversations with performers like Kate Winslet, Viola Davis, and Rami Hoffman. Paltrow was on another podcast recently, and she said, quote, "No one will understand me until I'm dead." And I remember when I heard that, I thought, okay, why don't we give it a try? And so with that, here is Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 3:44Sam Fragoso?

  Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 3:45Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you for being here.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:47Sam Fragoso?

  So this morning, as I was driving to Los Angeles, to Santa Barbara, where we're taping this, I kept thinking about how you built your whole life in LA, once you had kids. And you also grew up in Los Angeles, I think it was Santa Monica, then Malibu, then Brentwood, in some order. But once your kids left for college, you were kind of like, what, what do I do next? And I was thinking, when my mother dropped me off at San Francisco State, shortly thereafter, she got a divorce. And you're obviously happily married, but you did take this part. Was this part your divorce in this analogy?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yes, very much so. It's actually, I think what you're hitting on is that I think there is a very real thing that happens, especially to mothers. When all the kids leave, I think there's like a big reckoning that happens. And I panicked in a sense, like I just felt like, I don't know, I don't know where I want to live, I don't know who I am, I don't know what I want to do. And it was kind of a, it was a divorce. I divorced my house, I divorced Los Angeles.

• 5:05Sam Fragoso?

  And, and your former self?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  I think I more had to come to terms with letting a certain aspect of myself be in the past, which is, when you're a parent, it's like you're orienting everything around the child.

• 5:22Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  And everything is around their emotional needs, their soccer practice, their dinner, you know, and, and it's so relentless and it's so intense. And when they go, it's like, it forces this major reorientation, but it's almost like, you know, my, my husband Brad described it as like, he was like, you know, because I was really struggling with it when they left. And he said, you know, your nervous system was so tied to them that now they've launched and you know, you're a bit like, your nervous system doesn't quite know where to put all of its.

• 5:59Sam Fragoso?

  So like having a panic in purpose, what does that look like for you?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I think I'm a very emotionally honest person with myself. And it's something that I've tried to really cultivate and refine, like paying attention to myself and how I actually feel, because for the first half of my life, I did not do that.

• 6:21Sam Fragoso?

  And where, where are we dividing this?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  I think like 40, so not even first half.

• 6:25Sam Fragoso?

  Wow.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:26Sam Fragoso?

  So really like three, fours, four fifths? I'm not, actually, I think it's four fifths.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:30Sam Fragoso?

  You waited a while to start accommodating for yourself.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  I did.

• 6:35Sam Fragoso?

  How, how does it feel?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Now?

• 6:38Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  It feels amazing and strange and like a language that I'm learning and every day to sort of be like, hmm, wait a second, like, how do I actually feel about this or this person or this interaction or this meal? Like, how do I actually feel?

• 6:54Sam Fragoso?

  And up until 40, that was not a question you asked.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Not in the same way. I mean, I've always had very strong instincts, you know, and I've always been a decisive person around decisions. I have to make it work. Like, I've always, I've always felt an instinct and moved from that place. But if, when there was an interpersonal aspect to it, oh, this person is expecting me to feel this way, so I'm gonna feel that way about it.

• 7:21Sam Fragoso?

  So when you arrive at this new movie, it's called Marty Supreme, it's kind of your first film since Two Lovers and Country Strong.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:31Sam Fragoso?

  And your friend Cameron Diaz, who also stepped away from acting for a period, told you before working with director Josh Safdie, opposite Timothy Chalamet, that you should, quote, "Think about the richness and the deepening of your life. That's all material." So tell me, for the role of Kay Stone, what was the material of your life? The way that it had developed and changed since you stepped away to create Goop, what was that that you brought into the part?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's a, you know, quite an obvious meta aspect to it, right? Which is that Kay Stone, my character, was a very well-known movie star who stepped away from it all to get married and make a big, a different life choice. So there's that kind of parallel.

• 8:17Sam Fragoso?

  So not a huge leap for you?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Not a huge leap. And then I think, when I thought about Kay, I thought so much about the series of compromises she had made, both on the road to becoming the star that she must have been in the 30s and 40s. Like, she, she struck me as a woman who was extremely savvy and somebody who, probably in order to survive and get the things she wanted to, had made big compromises. So essentially, in my view, she had made probably pretty radical compromises to her integrity to get what she wanted, especially in, you know, choosing this kind of loveless marriage for security. And then I think she, she lost a child, which is just unimaginable.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  And you never hear her talk about it, but at the start of the movie, she's sort of shut down and cold. It's like she's a shell of a person in a way. And I think he starts to bellow life back into her. I bet you can't name one film I've done.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  What'd we say?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Because I stopped acting before you were born.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Really?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  That's really interesting.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Kay.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Why'd you stop?

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Did you use my razor to shave your legs? It's still, I've cut myself.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Who's that, your husband?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  I guess someone wants to snuck in and chop Uber that day.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I'm on the phone.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  With whom?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Debbie.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  Debbie.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Debbie.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Tell her to get a life.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Is he gone?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Okay. So, why'd you stop acting? Let's talk about that.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  You know, I really have to go.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  You must miss it, don't you? Come watch me play Wembley tomorrow.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Uh, I can't.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Come on, you can watch me dethrone the number one ranked player in the world.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  I'm not available.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah? What you got going on?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Actually, I have a big promotional event to attend to for my husband.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. What's he promoting?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Pens.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Pens? Are you serious?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Pens.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Like, writing pens?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  What, like, is he a pen salesman? How can you afford the suite you're in?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  He owns Rockwell, Inc.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, well.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  I know Rockwell.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Mm, I'm sure you do.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, what's the event?

• 10:20Speaker 01

  He's hired Agatha Christie to sign books at Hatchards.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Ooh. That sounds really boring.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I think this idea that she found herself at a point where she had lived all of this life and then had the opportunity to rethink herself, I sort of related to that.

• 10:42Sam Fragoso?

  It's hard to not go one for one here.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Sam Fragoso?

  You do sound like you're narrating your life a little bit.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, you know, obviously, she's experiencing this incredible grief from losing her son and...

• 10:56Speaker 01

  I was experiencing, obviously on a much, much smaller scale, but the grief of an empty nest. And so there was a lot, there were many parallels, I thought.

• 11:05Sam Fragoso?

  Kay is a movie star, as you said, from the 30s, who's quasi-retired. By the time the story picks up, it's in 1950s New York. And Josh Safdie said, "There's a fine line between the vulnerability Gwyneth herself brought to the part and the vulnerability she brought to Kay." And it really did feel like that. Like, I've seen the film twice now. But in some ways, having had the break, did it feel like the first day at school again?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  It did. I was just hoping it would come back. Because it's so hard to articulate how you do it. Like, how do you act? How do you embody somebody? How do you feel the right things at the right moment? And I've never been able to explain it, and it's something that just happens. And I was like, oh, man, how do I ensure that I know how to do this again? Like, what if the technique that I developed for myself isn't there? And luckily, the first day of shooting was this scene where we're rehearsing the play on Broadway. It was sort of like a tech rehearsal, and I was like, oh, okay. And I started in the theater. I started at the Williams Sound Theater Festival. I started doing plays.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  So, and that really feels like home to me, you know? And I could, I could hear my mother's voice, like, "Have your feet take root on the stage," you know? And I was like, okay. And then, and luckily, the camera was really far away. And so it was such a gentle entree back into it.

• 12:33Sam Fragoso?

  Going back to the theater, it's my understanding that your first performance came in 1974. You're about a year and a half old. And as your mother describes it, she says, by the end of her preparing to play the part of Nina in The Seagull, that a young, 18-month-old Gwyneth knew the lines from that pivotal monologue. This sounds like a story a parent tells to her friends.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:02Sam Fragoso?

  Or to her daughter later in life. Do you have any, like, core sense memory of that?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  I don't remember that day, but I remember being around my mother all the time when she was rehearsing plays and doing plays. And I think it paints a pretty accurate picture of me so exposed to the rehearsals that I would know the whole Men and Beasts monologue at 18 months old.

• 13:30Sam Fragoso?

  It's a little early to learn that?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might, yeah, some, some might consider.

• 13:34Sam Fragoso?

  But it was like coursing through you somehow.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think from the moment I understood what she did, I wanted to do what she did.

• 13:41Sam Fragoso?

  Going to Williamstown every summer. When you watched her perform, like, what did you make of that?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  You know, my mother onstage is, that is the iteration of her at her most herself and full and powerful. And in life, she's, I think she would say that she's never, she doesn't feel that same power when she's off the stage.

• 14:04Sam Fragoso?

  You said recently, it's funny, I think she's one of the best theater actresses, but in life, she feels less integrated. And onstage, she's fully integrated.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:14Sam Fragoso?

  I wonder, what did you mean by that?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  When my mother's onstage, she's using every part of herself, every aspect of herself, you know, the, the parts of her that are probably less polite. Like, she's using everything. She's using every dark part, every light part, every complicated part. And in life, especially that generation, it's so binary. You have to be good and you have to do the right thing. And I think that women of that generation and, and my generation too, that hopefully this is what I was trying to do post 40 is, is correct. But this idea that we can't fully integrate all of our parts, because we're not allowed to be angry and we're not allowed to be dark, you know what I mean? So.

• 14:58Sam Fragoso?

  And yet it's fascinating, because so much of your early work is you being angry and dark in all of those roles.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:06Sam Fragoso?

  Did your mom talk about acting in that way? Was she like, this is the place where I can get all this shit out? Or this is the place that I can act the way I'd like to if not for polite society?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I think very much the former.

• 15:20Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Like she, she would say like, you know, I need to get on stage and get, get, get everything, you know, moving through me kind of thing.

• 15:29Sam Fragoso?

  The way people talk about like running, I, I, I don't like running, but.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I don't either. It hurts my knees so much.

• 15:34Sam Fragoso?

  That's terrible.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't do it. No.

• 15:37Sam Fragoso?

  You know, you spent the first decade, as I said, bouncing from Santa Monica to Malibu to Brentwood, your mother acting with like long, white blonde hair down to her waist.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:48Sam Fragoso?

  Your father, a writer and producer who wore tie dyed shirts and Porsche wraparound glasses.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 15:55Sam Fragoso?

  Would your mother perform for you around the house in the kitchen and in bed at night? Were you guys would sing songs or something like that?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yes. She, we would play this game where she would pretend to be an Irish hedgehog named Mrs. Tiggy Winkle, which I think came from a Beatrix Potter character.

• 16:15Sam Fragoso?

  And what did that sound like?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  You know, I would go to the door with a, holding a basket and I would knock and she'd say, oh, Lucy, you know, how are you today? Come in, you know? And then I just was so fascinated. It was just my favorite thing in the world. Yeah. And then we would, um, we would, when we would lie in bed at night, we would sing and harmonize together and from a very young age, you know, it was like a, a way that we communicated.

• 16:43Sam Fragoso?

  Was it easier to communicate that way?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it was easier to communicate through art, accents, music than it was with language.

• 16:55Sam Fragoso?

  In 1986, when you saw your mother perform, uh, Streetcar Named Desire.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:00Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me about this performance.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. It's the, it remains the best female performance I've ever seen.

• 17:07Sam Fragoso?

  This is what I've heard. You're like 14 years old.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  So I'm go to Williamstown. I, I, I leave camp. I leave my all girls summer camp in Mallett's Bay, Vermont called Brown Ledge. It was wonderful. And, um, I left camp and I went down. I don't remember how I got there, but she was doing Streetcar Named Desire with Aiden Quinn playing Stanley and Sigourney Weaver playing Stella. And I sat there in the audience. I had no idea what I was in for. And I watched this magnificent performance. I mean, it was just.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Spellbinding and so raw and real and I just, I couldn't, you know, and then at the end she sort of, you know, she gets raped, she gets hauled off to the looney bin and I just, I completely fell apart. I was sitting with my dad. I, I sobbed in the, in my chair. I couldn't, I couldn't stand up for like 20 minutes. I mean, she was incredible. I've never seen anything like it.

• 18:05Sam Fragoso?

  Did you ever ask her about it?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  You know, it's a great question. I, you know, I've never asked her, how did you do that? How did you approach that? It's actually a very good question. Thank you, Sam.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I'm gonna call her on my way home.

• 18:24Sam Fragoso?

  The thing is to watch your mom, I'm trying to understand like the lived experience of sitting there, crying for 20 minutes and then some part of you going, I think I'd like to do that.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, therein lies the sickness. I mean.

• 18:39Sam Fragoso?

  Do you have to be unwell to be an actor?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  I think you have to be unhealed to be an actor.

• 18:46Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. You once said, to be an actor, you have to have lousy self-esteem.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I think that's right, especially when you, I, I don't know if you have to, but I think a lot of, I think it's a common denominator in a lot of actors.

• 19:02Sam Fragoso?

  You're saying it worked for you?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  It worked for me.

• 19:05Sam Fragoso?

  What did you have low self-esteem about?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  You know, I think I've always had this strange duality of having this like bizarre confidence and also feeling like a piece of shit person. You know what I mean? It's like, I think it's a duality that you get both from your childhood, right? It's like you get both things from your felt experience of being a child and what you saw and heard and what was done around you and to you and all the things. So. And I'm really actually right now trying to move out of that binary. And I've been, I think, since I've turned 40, it's been sort of about trying to embrace all of the gradations of, you know, because it's weird how as human beings, we're told

• 19:50Speaker 01

  like, you're a good person or you're not a good person. It's just not the case.

• 19:54Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  And we set ourselves up for this incredible self-flagellation and low self-esteem because we think we're supposed to be so good all the time. And it's just not human to be good all the time.

• 20:08Sam Fragoso?

  Were there expectations placed upon you from your mother and father?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  I think I inferred a lot that I was supposed to be X, Y, and Z. And if I wasn't, I was a disappointment. You know, that I was supposed to be, it's so interesting and sad now. In fact, my mother and I were just talking about this recently, how, you know, I wanted you to be with your perfect hair and the dress and because that's how she was raised, right? Like, and I wanted to rip the barrettes out of my hair and play in the dirt. And, and so I think that delta made me feel like I'm doing something wrong. Right? Like, I'm not, I'm not good. I don't, I can't be this person. I can't be this perfect little girl in a dirndl with my curly blonde hair.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's like, I want to rip it all off and like, wear overalls and go play with the boys, you know?

• 21:03Sam Fragoso?

  And she was against overalls?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I think she was inculcated with a very specific idea of what right looks like from her parents. And she followed the rubric perfectly. And I didn't. I just was incapable of putting myself in that box. And so, you know, she said at times she just didn't know what to do with me because I just wouldn't conform. And so I think I took that as there's something wrong with me.

• 21:32Sam Fragoso?

  So when did you start to do something right?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Maybe when I, after I moved to New York City and started to kind of get my own legs underneath me and my own agency to move around New York and to discover ideas and art and my own music and get my own personality and

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I think also my father, he kind of thought the sun rose and set in me as well. Like, he adored me. And so I was also feeling like, oh, I'm also, I also must be like, pretty okay.

• 22:08Sam Fragoso?

  Did you feel the same about him?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely.

• 22:12Sam Fragoso?

  Was he skeptical of you wanting to act?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  I think they had trepidation. It's such a hard career. And, you know, it's like, I'm looking now at my kids on the precipice of this. And so as a parent, you're like, oh, man, like, do you really want to subject yourself? Especially now, it's just bananas with the way media works. Do you really want to subject yourself to that? And the rejection and the auditions and the not working and the working. And but the truth is, they were supportive. And as soon as there was even a little inkling from the world saying yes to my endeavors, they were thrilled.

• 22:55Sam Fragoso?

  On the Cutting Room Floor podcast, you said, quote, "I've always been in pursuit of radical self-declaration." "I want the truth. I want the truth about who I am. I want the truth about life." This may be a dim question, but what?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  But what the fuck were you talking about?

• 23:13Sam Fragoso?

  Kind of.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:15Sam Fragoso?

  Can you tell me, what is radical self-declaration?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  So this has become like a core belief of mine in terms of.

• 23:24Sam Fragoso?

  Because I mean, I want to declare.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you should.

• 23:27Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, maybe by the end of this, the show, I will.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  I'm gonna stir it in you.

• 23:31Sam Fragoso?

  You're gonna stir?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:32Sam Fragoso?

  I'm supposed to stir in you, I think.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I can return the favor.

• 23:35Sam Fragoso?

  That's gonna be a real, thanks. So tell me what, tell me what the hell this is.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so what I mean by that, and I, and I say this all the time. And it stems from me being a person in the first three fifths, what do we decide?

• 23:49Sam Fragoso?

  It's four fifths, technically.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Technically, of my life.

• 23:51Sam Fragoso?

  Because you're fifty.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Three now.

• 23:53Sam Fragoso?

  Amazing.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  So.

• 23:55Sam Fragoso?

  You're fifty-three?

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 23:58Sam Fragoso?

  I gotta do some work.

• 24:00Sam Fragoso?

  I gotta do more cold plunge, contrast therapy. I gotta get to work here.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  I can give you a long list.

• 24:05Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, yeah, you send that to me along with the self declaration thing I'm supposed to do.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  I'm going to, I'm going to.

• 24:10Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, so for up to forty.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  So up to forty, I was constantly trying to find the shape of myself that worked in all situations. I, a lot of times, did not say what needed to be said because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I didn't want to ruffle feathers. And I wasn't completely embracing of who I actually was, like all, all the parts of myself. And so I think radical self declaration is really taking the time to feel and think through who you are, what's important to you, and really embracing like the worst aspects of yourself. And when those things come together in aggregate, that's the full you.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  And like, I feel so much relief, accepting myself fully. And it also, it also shows up in my life, you know, in the choices that I make and sometimes doing unorthodox things, like sort of essentially quitting like a big movie career to go off and do other stuff. Or, you know, to become an expat or to become a founder, like, you know, sometimes I've, I've made radical declarations ahead of me being ready to do them.

• 25:24Sam Fragoso?

  They were outpacing.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  They were outpacing me. Sometimes I'm like, I felt like I'm holding on to the tail of it, you know? But now I try to act and feel and make decisions from that place.

• 25:35Sam Fragoso?

  It sounds to me like the part of you that's thorny and complicated and not always perfect.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:42Sam Fragoso?

  You did get that out, the way your mother did, in those early films of yours.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:49Sam Fragoso?

  All through that early work.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 25:52Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, so when we come back, I want to talk about some of those films and what that looked like. We'll be right back with Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 26:15Sam Fragoso?

  There's something about the start of a new year that always makes me crave a clean slate. Oftentimes, that fresh start begins at home. That's why I've been resetting my space with Cozy Earth. I started with their Baja bedding set. It's a full set with matching sheets and duvet cover. Inspired by the serene colors and dramatic textures of the Baja California landscape, the collection brings a lively yet elegant blend of texture and pattern to your bed. The reversible design, premium fabric, and tireless colorways make it the perfect set to create your own resort-inspired haven at home. I've also tried Cozy Earth's Luxe bath towels, and they don't disappoint. They're incredibly soft and plush, made with a blend of cotton and viscose from bamboo

• 26:59Sam Fragoso?

  using innovative zero-twist technology. The result: towels that feel gentle and dry you off quickly and efficiently. What I've realized is that when home feels taken care of, everything outside of it feels more manageable: better sleep, smoother mornings, a little more ease in the day. Cozy Earth isn't just about comfort, it's about creating a place that helps you recharge. And it's a risk-free decision to try Cozy Earth because they offer a 100-night sleep trial. Try them out, and if you don't love them, return them hassle-free. They also give you a 10-year warranty because, once you feel this level of comfort, you'll want it to last a decade. Start the new year off right and give your home the luxury it deserves. Make home the best part of life.

• 27:44Sam Fragoso?

  Head to cozylearth.com and use my code TALEASY for up to 20% off. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Refresh your routines with comfort that makes every day feel like a new year. With the new year in full swing, you might have a business idea in mind, something you've quietly carried around and didn't know how to bring to life. Well, January is short and February tends to creep up fast. So if this is the year you want to see an idea through, one of the most powerful moves you can make is to start your business with Shopify. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already taken that leap,

• 28:27Sam Fragoso?

  from household names to first time business owners just getting started. What I love most about Shopify is how it helps close the gap between having an idea and actually launching it. You can choose from hundreds of beautifully designed templates to customize them to your brand. Setup is also very, very quick, especially with Shopify's built-in AI tools that help you draft product descriptions, headlines, and edit your product photos. With the marketing already built in, you can create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll. And as your business grows, Shopify grows with you, handling more orders, expanding into new markets, all from the same dashboard. This isn't about having everything figured out. It's about starting.

• 29:12Sam Fragoso?

  In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com/talkeasy. Go to Shopify.com/talkeasy. That's Shopify.com/talkeasy. Here your first, this new year with Shopify by your side.

• 29:41Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, coming back.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Coming back. Welcome back, Sam.

• 29:47Sam Fragoso?

  Do you want to say, "Welcome back to Talk Easy"?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Welcome back to Talk Easy.

• 29:50Sam Fragoso?

  Wow, you could have hosted this show.

• 29:54Sam Fragoso?

  Well, we'll do a swap. I'll host the Goop Pod.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 29:57Sam Fragoso?

  You host Talk Easy.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 29:59Sam Fragoso?

  So, the moment your career started to take off in the 90s, on the heels of Hard Eight, Seven, and then Emma, it was like a fast-moving train. At least, it's what it looked like to me. You're doing like four to five movies a year.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 30:13Sam Fragoso?

  All kinds of parts with all kinds of filmmakers. Did you feel like you were in charge of where the train was headed?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 30:22Sam Fragoso?

  Were you in communication with the conductor?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  You know, I felt that-

• 30:26Sam Fragoso?

  Did you bring Dramamine for the motion sickness?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  I just was so lucky to be working-

• 30:32Sam Fragoso?

  On the train?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  On the train. And so, and I didn't, I never stopped to contemplate strategy.

• 30:39Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, this is what we're here for.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:41Sam Fragoso?

  We're contemplating strategy.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Right, we're contemplating strategy. And I, and nobody said to me, hey, there's this thing called strategy.

• 30:47Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Which is where you sit down and you think through all of the options. And then you think in the near term, and the midterm, and the longer term. And you think about where you want to go. And then you make decisions to get to that place. No, I didn't do that.

• 31:04Sam Fragoso?

  Did you like pick the roles out of a hat? Like, I don't understand.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  A lot of it was timing. A lot of it was, you know, I, I had to say no to things I would have loved to do because I was doing other things. I got talked into certain things. I got talked out of certain things. You know, I just sort of like took what came.

• 31:24Sam Fragoso?

  You said, quote, "I was really disenchanted with how I was treated for a lot of that period, and especially the disparity between my male co-stars." What do you mean by that?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Probably paychecks. I mean, I had stuff too where people pinched my ass at craft service and, like, producers and, you know, that, a little bit of that kind of thing, not a, not a ton. But there was a real disparity in compensation that persevered, like, throughout.

• 31:53Sam Fragoso?

  When did you first get paid, what you thought was fair?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Fair? Well, there were also times where I was like, you know, I did a really bad movie with Jessica Lange called, oh, man, what the fuck is the name of that?

• 32:09Sam Fragoso?

  I'll get it for you.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  I literally don't know the name.

• 32:11Sam Fragoso?

  I don't either.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  It was like a bad, hush. And, you know, I got paid a fortune to do it and I, I couldn't believe it. So in that, in that instance, I was like, I, I'm set for life. Like, you know, wasn't that much, but in my mind at the time.

• 32:28Sam Fragoso?

  I've been rewatching a lot of these movies in the lead up to talking to you.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I hope not hush.

• 32:32Sam Fragoso?

  Hush wasn't in there.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 32:34Sam Fragoso?

  I like to be comprehensive. Hush didn't make the cut.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 32:38Sam Fragoso?

  But like Emma, Shakespeare in Love, Talented Mr. Ripley. I've heard you describe yourself as a former people pleaser. Someone who is like a person in passive aggressive recovery. When working with the person who pinched your ass. Or Harvey Weinstein, as, as you've come out against. What do you wish you could have been aggressive, aggressive about?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting hearing you talk about it too, because there was also this very strong kind of punk rock side to me that would like, would come out and I would sort of declare my boundaries or, you know.

• 33:16Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me about that.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I think I was toggling back and forth between trying to find myself and my voice. But also we were told all the time, you know, if you draw a boundary for yourself or if you speak up for yourself, like you'll be labeled difficult. So there was always that hanging over your head.

• 33:34Sam Fragoso?

  What did the punk rock version of Gwyneth Paltrow look like?

• 33:37Speaker 01

  God, someone just gave me an example of this the other day. What was it? They were saying, oh, I was on set when I was young. Oh, Ethan Hawke. We were talking about when we did a scene in Great Expectations and Alfonso Cuarón wanted the sex scene to be like pretty explicit and kind of Ethan going down between my legs and this whole thing. And I was just like, I'm not comfortable with that. And he was, and I had to hold his incredible disappointment with me. So that was a moment where I was like, I'm just not doing that. Rightly or wrongly, you know?

• 34:15Sam Fragoso?

  I think it was right for you.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think it was. I think there were certain films that I didn't do because of a sort of overt sexuality or certain scenes I didn't want to do because I had a dad and a grandfather and I it wasn't comfortable for me to at that point.

• 34:35Sam Fragoso?

  In that period, how often were you accommodating the massive egos of men?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Are you serious? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me with this?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  It's never the women who are never the women on a set, the actors, the producers, the directors, never the women who are who need their egos managed. And I say this in a loving way. I love men and I love having worked with a lot of the men that I've worked with, but there's like a whole other thing.

• 35:09Sam Fragoso?

  I was thinking about the most important man in your life was your father. And I had read somewhere that, you know, after you win the Oscar for Shakespeare in Love, not a normal thing.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 35:24Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. That your father like sat you down and talked to you about what was going on. And he said, quote, that you're kind of an asshole. Do you remember that conversation?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Perfectly.

• 35:37Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me about it.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  So I was 26.

• 35:41Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  And had just won the Oscar. Actually, when he sat me down, I think it was it was a few months later because it was sort of the the long tail impact of the Oscar and, you know, everybody saying yes to me at every turn, everywhere I went. And I think it just started to shift. You know, it's so it's like we're all mammals in a way and we're just responding to inputs around us. And all of a sudden, I had no friction. I had no one saying no. And I just sort of started to, I guess, morph into like a bad version of myself.

• 36:18Sam Fragoso?

  Well, what did that look like?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Part of it was abstract. He said, you're just weird. Like, you don't seem like yourself. The straw that kind of broke the camel's back was we had gone out to dinner as a family. And you know, the maître d' he said, we're so sorry, you know, we're just, the people stayed late and we're just clearing the table. And I think I just vibed some impatience. And my father was like, this is not you. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, this is, you're going in the wrong direction. And it was a pretty devastating intervention. And so I'm so grateful for it. Like, it kind of hit me. I went back to my room. I was staying with him in Santa Monica. I went back to my room and I cried and I was

• 37:04Speaker 01

  angry and.

• 37:05Sam Fragoso?

  You cried because he was right?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I, I was, I think I cried because I was angry and I knew somewhere he was right. But I also was confused. Like, I didn't totally get it, which was the point, because it's so tiny, these increments of, you know, it's like, very imperceptible to myself. And he just like, yanked me right, right out of it, which was great.

• 37:27Sam Fragoso?

  He probably didn't talk like that to you very often.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  I mean, he was a straight talker. He was very direct and he gave.

• 37:35Sam Fragoso?

  So you're used to it?

• 37:36Speaker 01

  I was used to it. This was particularly.

• 37:38Sam Fragoso?

  Tough.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Yes. This is particularly tough.

• 37:44Sam Fragoso?

  So you said it set you on the right path?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did.

• 37:47Sam Fragoso?

  What did that look like for you?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Holding yourself accountable all the time as best you can and choosing people to be around you who also hold you accountable.

• 37:57Sam Fragoso?

  Is this also around when he starts getting sick?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he started getting sick. I mean, he had had his crazy neck surgery and all of the radiation and stuff.

• 38:10Sam Fragoso?

  He had throat cancer?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because I remember at the Oscars, he was, he had already had the surgery and the radiation and all that. He was pretty diminished.

• 38:19Sam Fragoso?

  That's late 90s?

• 38:20Speaker 01

  That's 90. Yeah, I think he was diagnosed, he was diagnosed when I was on the set of The Talented Mr. Ripley. And I believe we shot that in 97.

• 38:29Sam Fragoso?

  What parts of him changed after that?

• 38:33Speaker 01

  I mean, everything, you know, he was this incredibly strong guy. Physically, he was tall, he was muscly. He was direct and very forthright and incredibly, he just had this fortitude in all ways. And after.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  The surgery and specifically after the radiation, which just burned him inside and out, you know, to the point where he couldn't swallow, he couldn't make saliva. You know, we were feeding him through a feeding tube. He just was, you know, weaker. He was diminished. He was, um, but also this amazing like gentleness started to come through. You know, I think he, I think he eased up on himself and, you know, on life and it was like, he just, he just got so sweet.

• 39:27Sam Fragoso?

  What did that sound like?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  He became very philosophical and very sanguine. And, you know, he used to be impatient and like this New Yorker, you know, and he, he really changed in that sense, you know? He really, he slowed down and he took the long view.

• 39:44Sam Fragoso?

  Is there something he said that you hold on to? Cause also my understanding on the flip side, that the foundations of Goop, that like the pillars around health and wellness, seem to kind of begin while you're watching him in the hospital struggle.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 40:00Sam Fragoso?

  Where you're thinking, my God, is there anything I can do?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 40:04Sam Fragoso?

  Because whatever's happening in this hospital room isn't fucking working.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Correct, correct.

• 40:09Sam Fragoso?

  Is there something he said that, and you think back on that period that you hold?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Well, he just really became, you know, it was like, I don't know if he was reading Marcus Aurelius or what was going on, but he started taking a walk with a rabbi every week. And he just, you know, for a man who had never believed in God and never had any kind of spiritual practice, you could feel him connecting with something bigger than himself. And I think it manifested in a very, he, he just, you know, it was a kind of thing where, you know, his voice was really compromised after the surgery and everything. Every time he said anything, it was like these pearls of wisdom. And so you, I just remember like leaning in, everybody leaning in, like what is Brucey saying, you know, what, I don't want to miss this, you know?

• 40:58Sam Fragoso?

  Well, speaking of your father, um, I want to play a scene from around this time.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:02Sam Fragoso?

  I'm told it's one of the only scenes you can bear to watch yourself in.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:07Sam Fragoso?

  And it comes from the Royal Tenenbaums's, where we first meet Margot by way of the Green Line bus. Can we watch that?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Stand up straight and let me get a look at you.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  What's so funny?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Well, it's nice to see you too.

• 41:46Sam Fragoso?

  What?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  It's like, I can't believe that's me and I got to do that. It's so cool. I mean, is that not one of like the great introductions to a character?

• 41:58Sam Fragoso?

  All time. Yeah, it's like Orson Welles in The Third Man.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 42:04Sam Fragoso?

  Was your father there that day?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  He was. He was there that day. And in fact, I was just with Wes recently and he was reminding me, my dad was, you know, "Oh, what are you using?" And, you know, they were sort of chatting behind the camera about his lenses and "What speed are you running this at?" You know? So cool.

• 42:23Sam Fragoso?

  When you were watching that, what were you thinking about? You had about eight different emotional responses.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  I did. I just, it's like, I don't know, I'm at this point in my life where I kind of, you know, without sounding like full of myself, where you kind of can't deny some of the films that I was in, you know, and it's a very cool thing. It's all just kind of hitting me recently, you know, like someone was asking me about Seven the other day. "Oh, it's the 30th anniversary of Seven and, you know, like, that was such a..." And I'm like, "Yeah, my gosh, I was in Seven, this sort of seminal, you know, and David Fincher's first film." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I forgot all these things."

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Like, I've been in these movies that, at the time, were... Really kind of important in the culture. And I'm like, oh, wait, that happened. Like, I'm in these things. It's weird. It's like, it's for some reason now, it's just, it's, it's hitting me.

• 43:28Sam Fragoso?

  How does that feel?

• 43:29Speaker 01

  I feel old and good, you know? Like, it's sort of like you cross into this, you cross over this threshold where you are, you know, not, not in it the same way you, you are when you're a leading romantic person. You know, it's like you cross, you, you, and when you're in that, you can't really be seen or understood. Like, I don't know, I think it's hard to really determine and discern who you are in the culture and what it's gonna mean. And then all these years go by and decades go by and, you know, people are dressing as

• 44:09Speaker 01

  you for Halloween and people are still flipping out about seven and people are talking about the talented Mr. Ripley and you're like, man, shit. Like, I was in some really cool films. Like, this is cool.

• 44:24Sam Fragoso?

  The weird thing is, you're, you're describing it like it happened to another person.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  It feels that way, in a sense.

• 44:30Sam Fragoso?

  It does?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think when you're in it, you can't fully absorb and embody that it's you and you're in something that's a big deal. Like, I can't, anyway. It's taken me like 20, 30 years to be able to feel the impact of a good film that I was in.

• 44:49Sam Fragoso?

  Why did you walk away?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Well, I was on that train and I, like, crashed it into a wall.

• 45:04Sam Fragoso?

  Any bruises?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  I think a few bruises and-

• 45:07Sam Fragoso?

  Broken bones?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Broken bones.

• 45:08Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  You know, and- When I had my daughter, Apple, I had this big epiphany that I just, I just needed a break. I needed a break. I needed to get off the train. And luckily, I could afford to do that. And that was my first, you know, I took three years off and had a couple of kids and really gave myself time to think about, do I really want to do this? Or was I shown a path from my brilliant mother? And I thought I was supposed to do that. And then I did it. And I got on the train and the train never stopped. So I wanted to take some time to contemplate what I had done it for. Did I want to do it again?

• 45:53Sam Fragoso?

  No wonder you're just starting to like, look back on the train itself.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:58Sam Fragoso?

  Should we, I think we should discuss what you did instead.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:02Sam Fragoso?

  Which is everything goop.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 46:05Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:06Sam Fragoso?

  We'll be right back with Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 46:24Sam Fragoso?

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• 47:06Sam Fragoso?

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• 47:50Sam Fragoso?

  Own your health for $365 a year. It's a dollar a day. You can learn more and join using my link. Visit www-functionhealth.com/talkeasy or use gift code TALKEASY25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. As we head into the new year, I've been thinking about how to improve my financial health, spending money more intentionally, making space to fund the activities I actually care about. I assure you, managing money doesn't have to be a struggle, doesn't have to be difficult this time of year. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting, accounts, investments,

• 48:35Sam Fragoso?

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• 49:19Sam Fragoso?

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• 49:34Sam Fragoso?

  Coming back and making Goop, how much of the foundation of it is that response you had seeing your father go through what he went through?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Well, I should just go back briefly to say what you touched on, being in the hospital with him, pushing the quote unquote "food" directly into his stomach from a syringe and watching him not get better. I thought, you know, is there any other approach? So that's what started my whole interest in the idea that our bodies can't handle the insults that the modern world puts on us every single day. Why, why does sometimes our immune systems take care of cancer cells, which we all are making every single day? And why sometimes does it not? And is that because of a toxic burden? Is that because of latent viruses? Is that because of genetics?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  I just started to get very interested and, and wondering if there was anything we could do to speed his healing or to create real healing. And so that's when I started reading about fasting and macrobiotics and, and all of the things, you know, eating clean, whole foods and, you know, things that acupuncture, people thought were totally bananas, but, but I, and I tried unsuccessfully to convert him into a healthier way of eating, living, but he, he wasn't very interested, but, but it really lit the spark.

• 51:09Sam Fragoso?

  Everyone I talked to about you described you as an intensely, almost pathologically curious person.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 51:16Sam Fragoso?

  And so I just spent the last week reading all these things.

• 51:21Sam Fragoso?

  And oh my God, there's people who love it, there's people who hate it.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:26Sam Fragoso?

  The, the products that, that were especially outlandish. Did you find, again, please tell me if I get the names wrong.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:35Sam Fragoso?

  But like a, a yoni egg?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:38Sam Fragoso?

  There's a candle of, that smells like.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:41Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm. There was swearable stickers that promote body healing called Body Vibes.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 51:48Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  We, we, we put those on the site. We thought it was a cool idea and then people were very.

• 51:53Sam Fragoso?

  People got mad.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  People got mad, yeah.

• 51:56Sam Fragoso?

  Like, those things, were they things that you found personally useful? Or did you think they were advantageous for the business?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  So there's sort of two veins here, right? There's the kind of content vein, and then there's the product vein. When we started, you know, we were content-driven only. And then, and we started, we would recommend products or recommend services or, you know, and the, and curation is really a critical part of what we do. We want to save these busy, amazing women time. We know that they are also intensely curious, and we want to reveal stuff. Some of the things, I think in the early days, to your question, they were not things that I bought or used. You know, there's, there's also always been a team at Goop.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  And so some of the things that were written about, I didn't even know until they, you know, until later dates. But I think that what always fascinates me is this idea that the things that were outlandish were really around having agency around your own health and body. And that's what made people so mad, that a woman would dare to experiment with a yoni egg if she needed pelvic floor strengthening. Like, why is that so enraging?

• 53:17Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Because I think, oh my God, I'm gonna take, I don't want to take too much time on this podcast talking about, like, existing paradigms of patriarchy. And, but I do really believe that there are a lot of systems that exist because women especially are kept out of their power and are encouraged not to ask questions, especially when we started Goop. I've watched this change a lot, and I think Goop has played a part in this paradigm shift as well. I mean, you've seen, in the 17 years since I started writing the Goop newsletter, you see all of these things that were enraging become beyond mainstream.

• 54:01Sam Fragoso?

  There's so much, as I was reading it, from the conscious uncoupling

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:06Sam Fragoso?

  to

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Cupping.

• 54:07Sam Fragoso?

  The cupping.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:08Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, like, all these, like, there's so many things where you were kind of raked over the coals, and now it's just in the mainstream.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:16Sam Fragoso?

  I've seen you talk about how there has to be a connection. Between the emotional and psychosomatic and how women have more inflammation than men. What does that look like for you? I mean, it sounds like that's stuff you're going through as well.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  This is sort of the theme of the thing. I'm always trying to get to the core of what's actually happening within me psychologically, spiritually, physically, medically. And when I started to not feel so good personally is when I started to go down the road of like understanding inflammation, understanding autoimmune. I luckily don't have autoimmune. I had pretty bad inflammation that I've been able to eradicate, change in diet and supplementation.

• 55:00Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, what works for that? I'm curious.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we're all so sui generis. It's like, and we all have such different genetics and we all have such different phenotypes and food sensitivities. And so I really don't think that there's a cookie cutter answer to that.

• 55:19Sam Fragoso?

  You know how we started by talking about how you waited till 40 to basically have this kind of self reckoning?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:27Sam Fragoso?

  What did that look like for you?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Quite a lot. I mean, a ton of stuff from my childhood that I hadn't really sorted through.

• 55:36Sam Fragoso?

  We talked about the expectations.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  There was, I think, ramifications of sublimating my feelings for a really long time, which was causing symptoms. You know, it's funny, it's like, the body will talk to you, you know? And there's that book, The Body Keeps the Score, where I think there's a lot of veracity to that idea, that the body can reflect back to you what you have not sort of processed yet, looked at yet. And I certainly had a number of those things. And, you know, I had two little kids when I was 40.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Was in a marriage that I was worried wasn't gonna make it in the long term. So a lot of big stressors, a lot of things that I wasn't really willing to, I didn't want to face. And when I turned 40, it was like, okay, sister, we're done with this.

• 56:32Sam Fragoso?

  How did your body betray you?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I started getting symptomatic, you know, I had all kinds of, all kinds of things going. I mean, I'm not going to, you know, tell you all the nitty gritty, but a lot of things that, things that were concerning and, you know, everything from lightheadedness to things that required surgery.

• 56:54Sam Fragoso?

  But it's fascinating because it has to be connected to where we started this conversation, which is the four fifths of your life where you did not listen to yourself.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 57:07Sam Fragoso?

  That you didn't listen to your body and it did catch up.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  It definitely caught up. And that also leads to, you know, it like, if you're scared to look someone in the eye and say like, hey, you're not right for me anymore as a friend, as a boyfriend, as a whatever. Or, you know, I'm having a really difficult time with you today because of this, or these are my feelings. Like I had no, I didn't know how to communicate that kind of thing and to be honest. And, and so that causes other behaviors and that, that, that aren't good for you.

• 57:39Sam Fragoso?

  So folding back into the company, there's been so much talk about how Goop has moved from, from wellness to more fashion and beauty. And I wondered, did you make that pivot because it's not possible to be well in 2025?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  I think it's more possible to be well in 2025.

• 57:57Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, give me the, give me the upside.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Than it's ever been, but I think.

• 58:00Sam Fragoso?

  Give me the positive vision.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  It requires a lot of self intervention. Like I think social media is so, so, so bad for us.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I think if we make decisions to disconnect from the things that really pollute our minds, like social media, I think if we really start to get in touch with like, how do I feel? What do I need? There's an amazing array of things that are offered to us, healing modalities and ways to figure out why you might not feel well, why you might have chronic fatigue, or why you might have a difficult time with X, Y, or Z.

• 58:37Sam Fragoso?

  That's the list you're gonna send me later, right?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I'm gonna send it to you.

• 58:40Sam Fragoso?

  You said recently that I don't think I can do this job forever.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:44Sam Fragoso?

  What would having done the job to a satisfactory place look like?

• 58:49Speaker 01

  I mean, in a lot of ways, I feel like I've done the job to the satisfactory place.

• 58:57Sam Fragoso?

  Are you announcing your retirement?

• 58:59Speaker 01

  I am. Not yet. But I do think that there are, I think a lot of the time, like, maybe there's somebody now who can come and take the baton and really build it to the next phase, you know, who has that kind of deep operational expertise. And maybe I could, you know, be more, go back to being more creative.

• 59:23Sam Fragoso?

  What are the parts you don't like?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  The things you would think, the things that a person who doesn't understand that 40 is four fifths of your life, you know, like, anything that's in Excel, you know, budget stuff.

• 59:36Sam Fragoso?

  You don't strike me as someone who's in Excel.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  I hate it so much. I mean, I have to be sometimes, but I'm like, I'm too dumb for this. Like, why, why am I doing this? So those kinds of things, you know? I think I really excel at strategy and ideas and making beautiful, non-toxic beauty products and clothing and recipes. I love the content, I love the travel, I love, you know, that we at Goop feel like to be in pursuit of your own life is a very worthwhile mission. And so I love all the ways that we do that.

• 1:00:16Sam Fragoso?

  Speaking of being in pursuit of your own life.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Sam Fragoso?

  When you sell the company, did you make your mother a promise? And what was it?

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  I said, if I sell the company, I'll do a play on Broadway. Fine, Mom.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  She really wants me to. I couldn't quite now. Like, it would be really hard to, from a time commitment perspective. But I would like to honor that promise to her.

• 1:00:42Sam Fragoso?

  Do you want to do it?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  I would love to do that. I mean, that's where I'm from and I've never done. I'm from the, you know, I grew up in the theater and I've never done it in New York City, which is crazy.

• 1:00:53Sam Fragoso?

  We started with Marty Supreme and I really did feel like I was watching someone fall back in love with acting in a way that I was really moved by. And last night, as I was preparing, I called James Gray, your director on the film Two Lovers. And he told me this story that I just want to kind of hold here toward the end.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:16Sam Fragoso?

  Which is that like before you shot this scene, it's in New York City, it's freezing outside, you're sitting in a car and you have your headphones on and your eyes closed. Do you remember this?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  I do. That is me getting my, I don't know, interior landscape to the place where I can do the job. And what I was worried about, what I articulated to you at the start of this conversation, like, am I going to remember how to get there to that interior place? And I did fall back in love with it while I was doing the film. I had such a good time and there I am still with my headphones in, you know, before scenes getting, getting ready.

• 1:02:06Sam Fragoso?

  In those moments, what are you working through?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  It's really just, this sounds so lame and like actory, but it really is just like, I, it's really getting the channel open. It's like getting out of your own head and your own ego and kind of like getting just to the essence of what's on the inside without like your own stuff. Does that make any sense?

• 1:02:28Sam Fragoso?

  It does make sense. And when those channels open, I think what that looks like, to bring us back to the beginning, I wondered if you would be open to reading your first performance from The Seagull.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Sure, I'll try not to cry. You know, I did this play in Williamstown with my mother. I played Nina and she played Madame Arcadina with Chris Walken and Cherry Jones. It was the most amazing experience. It was, it was a real homecoming, you know? Oh, this is a different translation. Okay, great. "All men and beasts, lions, eagles and quails, horned stags, geese, spiders, silent fish that inhabit the waves, starfish from the sea, and creatures invisible to the eye. In one word, life.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  All, all, life completing the dreary round imposed upon it has died out at last. A thousand years have passed since the earth last bore a living creature on her breast, and the unhappy moon now alights her lamp in vain. No longer are the cries of storks heard in the meadows or the drone of beetles in the groves of limes. All is cold, cold. All is void, void, void. All is terrible. The bodies of all living creatures have dropped to dust and eternal matter has transformed them into stones and water and clouds,

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  but their spirits have flowed together into one. And that great world, soul, am I. It is, in me is the spirit of the great Alexander, the spirit of Napoleon, of Caesar, of Shakespeare, and of the tiniest leech that swims. In me, the consciousness of man has joined hands with the instinct of the animal. I understand all, all, all, and each life lives again in me." Scene.

• 1:04:43Sam Fragoso?

  That was a lot.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  That was a lot.

• 1:04:45Sam Fragoso?

  What did it bring you back to?

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Well, it was like, hard for me to, you know, at the beginning, I was like, it's such joy, even though it's such a weird monologue, it's such, like, I get so full of joy thinking about my life and my mother and, you know, doing this play when I was 21 and...

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sort of going back to what I was saying, right? Like, I've done a lot of stuff, Sam. It's weird when it feels like it's coming home to roost in the sense that you're, you, you, you feel the, you know, accumulation of what you've put into the world.

• 1:05:20Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I want to thank you for talking about that accumulation. And here's to much more.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:05:28Sam Fragoso?

  Gwyneth Paltrow, thank you for the time.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:06:30Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to share the show on social media. Tag us at Talk Easy Pod. I want to give a special thanks this week to Brynna Rifkin, Matt Haberman, and the team at Narrative PR. I also want to thank A24, Erica Cheety, Eli Bush, James Gray, Rad Gaskell, Trevor Cameron, and of course, our guest today, Gwyneth Paltrow. Marty Supreme is now playing in theaters across the country. For showtimes and more, visit our website at TalkEasyPod.com. For more episodes with other great actors, I'd recommend Kate Winslet, Joaquin Phoenix, Viola Davis, and Ethan Hawke. If you'd like to watch the video version of this episode with Gwyneth Paltrow,

• 1:07:13Sam Fragoso?

  you can find the page Talk Easy with San Frigoso on YouTube. We've also included the link in the description of this episode. As always, you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok at Talk Easy Pod. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy, or our vinyl record with Fran Lebowitz, visit TalkEasyPod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Jenix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Corey Etad and Matt Sasaki. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was taped out of Hidden City Studios in Santa Barbara. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris Shanoi. Photographs today come from Ethan Newmeyer, research assistants Ben

• 1:07:57Sam Fragoso?

  Eisen and Kiki Giorgio. This episode was made in partnership with Higher Ground Media, and I'm San Frigoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday with artist, writer, and musician Patty Smith. Until then, stay safe, and some more.

• 1:08:18Speaker 04

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