Part 2: Cleveland Survives, Knicks-Sixers, and Whaddya Do for Denver, Houston,  and Atlanta With Zach Lowe

Join The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe LIVE on Netflix as they react to the Cavs defeating the Raptors in Game 7 to move on to the conference semifinals (1:19). Then, they preview the Round 2 matchups and try to figure out what some eliminated teams should do in the offseason (28:49). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:36Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run, not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you, the basketball fan. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, plays during NBA postseason. Build a same-game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action. Right after tip off, whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 2:46Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live on Netflix for the second time today. Zach Lowe is here. New rewatchables for me coming on Monday. We're doing There's Something About Mary, which is also available on Netflix, along with a whole bunch of comedy movies that I covered in part one. Zach Lowe has a podcast Tuesday morning, Thursday morning. And I really hope we have better games to discuss than the two we had today. Two, two duds, two game seven duds, unless you were fans of Cleveland and Detroit. This game felt like it had potential. This Cavs Raptors game heading into halftime. There were some great storylines at play, including LeBron? Next year, Cleveland?

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Oh, boy. Okay, we're going right there.

• 3:28Bill Simmons?

  Mitchell trades Mobley, Giannis, like, let's go. And then Cleveland's like, hold on, hold your horses and took care of business.

• 3:36Speaker 04

  I mean, you can revisit all the storylines next round if, if that doesn't go badly for the Cavaliers. It'd be interesting to see how the Cavs and the Pistons coming off just like gnarly series where they just couldn't get on track offensively against, you know, in particularly, I think the Cavs against the Raptors team that's just weird and big and super switchy. If they, both those teams get to the next round or like, all right, this feels a little bit like more conventional basketball to us. We feel a little bit of like a sigh of relief, even though, you know, Detroit is a gnarly team themselves. But it's just, Toronto is just a different kind of team. They're built differently. They're a weird team to play against.

• 4:10Bill Simmons?

  Missing multiple players that they're paying lots of money to.

• 4:15Bill Simmons?

  This is my first question for you.

• 4:18Bill Simmons?

  Is it kind of embarrassing for Cleveland that this went seven games?

• 4:21Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't think so. Um, I, Cleveland in seven was my pick, so I'm not surprised that it went seven.

• 4:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but did you know Quickly and Ingram were basically going to be scratched from the series?

• 4:31Speaker 04

  Quickly scratched the whole series. Uh, you knew going into the series that it, I mean, I, I remember saying like, it's probably bad for their offense and good for their defense. The Ingram one, as he was not exactly lighting the world on fire in this series, but there's just a certain critical massive talent you need to beat a team like Cleveland four times in seven games. And as critical as you want to maybe be of the way Ingram had played, it's just, you're just asking too much of guys like Jamison Battle and Mamu and, and, you know, Jamal Shad, God bless him, had an unbelievable series and then the jumper deserted him in the second half of the game today. It's just, it's just like, these guys were marginal NBA players going into the season and you're asking to get you over the finish line on the road in game seven against a team that has four guys who have made All-Star teams pretty recently. It's just a tall,

• 5:16Speaker 04

  it's a tall order. Um, so is it embarrassing?

• 5:19Bill Simmons?

  AJ Lawson is furious that you didn't mention him.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Well, he's furious at everybody because he looked like he wanted to start a fight from the moment he got into the game. I thought, I found the whole thing delightful, but you know, he, he, who did he flagger really for? Wrapped up Jared Allen and threw him to the floor, got called for a flagger one. I don't think it's embarrassing. Toronto is a pain in the ass to play against and, you know, Cleveland could have won game six easily. They could have won game four easily. They ran away with it tonight. In a way, by the way, for, for, look, I don't want to like damn them with faint praise, but it was nice to see Cleveland come up against a team that basically looked them in the eye and said, you guys have wilted under physicality in the playoffs before. We don't really have a lot of other ways to beat you, given our talent deficit, other than beating the hell out of you and seeing how you responded. And like Jared Allen in particular,

• 6:07Speaker 04

  came for the fight today and took the fight to Toronto. And like, good sign for the, for the Cavs, I think.

• 6:12Bill Simmons?

  I thought Struce was incredibly important.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:15Bill Simmons?

  The two, the two guys I had written down, Max Struce had a shout out to Heat culture, throwback game, and Jared Allen had a shout out to, please stop throwing me in trade rumors. I'm happy here. I don't want to be the fall guy this summer, kind of game. He was, especially in the third quarter, I thought he swung it. And you know, if you're Toronto and you're looking at a big picture and you just did that crazy extension for Pirtle, that made kind of no sense when it happened, hasn't even really kicked in yet. And seemed either unplayable, semi-playable, or sort of playable, depending on where you caught him in the series. But Jared Allen was just running amok. And then the other thing, Harden wasn't bad.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  No.

• 6:57Bill Simmons?

  We were headed toward maybe sort of an old school throwback, terrible James Harden playoff game. And then actually he got going. And then, once they had a bigger lead, then he looked very comfortable.

• 7:08Speaker 04

  He got going in a way that, I, I, look, we're predisposed to be nervous about James Harden in big playoff games. He was three of nine from the floor. He controlled his turnovers. He only had two turnovers, which is big. He's had some high turnover games. But he got like, you know, Jacoby Walker, Jacoby Walter stuck his arm in the cookie jar, got a three shot foul. There was that one drive that I think it was the third foul on Scotty Barnes, where they were kind of running parallel on a Harden drive into lane and Harden kind of veered sideways into him and Scotty Barnes also kind of, I was, it was, but it, it just seemed like Harden had reached the stage where he was saying to himself, I just got to junk my way to 10 free throws. That's the only way I'm going to have a productive game. And that, that makes me, that makes me a little nervous, just a little nervous.

• 7:53Bill Simmons?

  He was active defensively for James Harden.

• 7:57Speaker 04

  He was.

• 7:59Bill Simmons?

  He wasn't bad. And then Mitchell, who finished with 22, nine for 20. He was another one that kind of came and went. It was, that first half definitely had the makings.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:11Bill Simmons?

  And the makings of a collapse. The crowd was really nervous. Tareko and Reggie were on it. They could feel it. And they finished the half strong. Like, I think it was seven points with, I don't know, 90 seconds left or something. Cleveland made a couple of shots and a couple of plays. By the time we got to halftime, I was like, okay, let's take a breath. Then top of the third quarter blew them out. For, so for, from a Cleveland standpoint.

• 8:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what I learned. They're going to be going into this Detroit series, which is, you know, an even more physical, athletic version of, of what we just saw with Toronto. With the bonus that they actually have a guy who can create good shots and good shots for other people. Toronto had this weird mix of Barnes, who's not quite ready yet as a creator. And then RJ Barrett, who I thought, I don't know, I, I thought he increased whatever his trade value was. He's heading into the last year of his deal. I actually liked his competitiveness. He had the big shot in game six. But that was really it. Cade's another animal from those two guys, I think, as a crunch time guy.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  At, at the same time, I mean, Detroit was a better defense than Toronto this year. There are two of the top five defenses in the league. I think Detroit was second, Toronto was fifth. They're a little, they're just a little bit more conventional than the Raptors are, particularly when they put C and B at the five and just switch everything and muck your whole life up. And it's just going to be interesting to see if, like, the Cavs offense, even, even today, take away the offensive rebounds, they just didn't look very in sync. Like Harden and Mitchell don't look in sync with each other. There's just been a lot of dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. Their assist rate is way down. They're taking way more pull up threes in this series. I think a lot of that has to do with Toronto just sort of drags you into that style with their switchiness and the way they play.

• 9:59Speaker 04

  I bet they feel a little bit looser against Detroit, which sounds paradoxical because Detroit is a nasty, physical, great defense. I just think they play a little more conventionally. But I think it should be, I think it should be a good, a good series. Two teams that should be super hungry to get to the next round. All these teams should be super hungry. I mean, Embiid and the Sixers have never made it out of this round in his tenure there. The Knicks have all the pressure on them to duplicate last year's run and get better than that. So it's going to be a fun second round in the East, I think.

• 10:25Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland out rebounded them 60 to 33.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  Holy smokes.

• 10:29Bill Simmons?

  Both teams shot 28% from three.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:32Bill Simmons?

  As you mentioned, it was a rock fight that took forever.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 10:35Bill Simmons?

  And we had multiple stoppages and reviews and I thought the refs were really, really bad from a one-sided standpoint. And I had no dog in the race. I didn't really care who won, but I thought, I just felt like Toronto didn't get a call for two and a half hours other than a couple on Struce, but it didn't matter.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  Mobley was in foul trouble for a lot of the game.

• 10:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I didn't, I didn't love the whistles, but it was a classic road team. Game seven, you're not gonna, probably not getting those calls unless you're Philadelphia and Boston.

• 11:08Speaker 04

  Okay, all right. Were you watching Jalen Brown's Twitch stream during the game? Is that what you were doing when this game guy went to reviews? Were you watching Jalen on, I think it was Twitch. I'm not on Twitch. I'm not really, I don't really know what's going on there, but I saw some clips on Twitter and he was not happy with the flopping and the officiating, I was told.

• 11:25Bill Simmons?

  There was some director's cut Jalen stuff going on. Definitely one of those start getting texts like, oh no, oh boy, here we go. He even, I think hinted that in the last three games, there was refs in each game that were not on the level, which I don't know if that, how well that's gonna go over.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. Does that, does that count? Does Twitch count for NBA like monitoring purposes? Does the league office get to?

• 11:50Bill Simmons?

  I think everything counts.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Everything counts? Okay.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're pretty, they, they care every time the refs are insulted by players or coaches. So that was going on. And then the other thing that happened was inside the NBA ended, they did the gone fishing for the Celtics. I was proud that I made the boat. So did Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and John Krasinski. And then at the front reenacting the Titanic, Mike Vrabel and Diana Rossini. And they did not acknowledge it, but they were laughing and then now it's a big thing on social media. So those two events were more, those two social media events were more exciting than this game, I think.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  So I did see the clip on Twitter of them talking about the boat and Ernie saying, there's our friend Bill Simmons on the boat and John Krasinski. And then they were just like, and there's other people on the boat. Some other people are on there. I don't know. All right.

• 12:42Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, it was really funny.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  Here's a word from, here's a word from Kia.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  I would love to have been like who, when they created it, there had to have been a meeting. It was like, are we, are we doing this? Is we like, we're putting them on and we're doing the Titanic pose. We're good with that. There had to be someone who was like, guys, I don't know. And then someone else who was like, screw that. It's funny. We're doing it. And then it got greenlit.

• 13:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, nothing would be more fun than inside the NBA, being in fuck it mode with ESPN over the next couple of rounds. Just feeling like, yeah, we start pushing the envelope, guys. Can you hit? It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every single day. This week, buy a four piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four piece signature chicken from Popeyes. Get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. It really isn't. Popeyes offer valid through November 1st. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See

• 13:53Bill Simmons?

  app for details.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of. Major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone. Building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 15:25Bill Simmons?

  Big, big, big picture. You mentioned Cleveland versus Detroit, which is our round two matchup now. These teams have played entertaining games during the regular season. I probably have slightly higher hopes for this series than most because I think there's animosity on both sides. You have the Schroder piece where he used to play for the Pistons and he'll be up to stuff.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  That's every series with Dennis Schroder.

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I know he's been on every team in the league, but I wasn't sure that. Was he, he was on Toronto too, right?

• 16:01Speaker 04

  Yes, he was.

• 16:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's on, I just figured he's played for every team. But we have that, we have, you know, Max Struce, no stranger to the physicality. We have the beef stew, Jalen Durin combo battling the two soft-spoken Cavs guys. But I, I thought, I remember watching one of these games and Cleveland seemed really comfortable going against Detroit. And I think my lean, even though I don't really like this Cleveland team that much at all, and I think they give up a lot of open shots, I'm just not sure Detroit's going to be the team to exploit that. So I gotta look at this more, but my lean. Would be Cleveland in six and I don't feel good about it.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  I don't feel good about either of these teams coming off the series. I'm gonna take a lot of tomorrow and go back and watch some of the games that they played and get a sense of food guard too. And what the matchups are gonna be and strengths and weaknesses of all that. I think it should be a long series. I would probably slightly lean Cleveland, but awesome performance by Detroit today. We already thought about that. Yeah, there and you bet like struth the struth Duncan Robinson, heat culture cast off battle is happening.

• 17:08Bill Simmons?

  Forgot about that. That's a good one.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  I think it would be a funny subplot if like mild mannered Jared Allen, like if beef stew did something and he just like snaps, just Jared Allen just snaps and something and like knows and knows karate or something and just we stuff we didn't know about Jared Allen and it just, who knows, anything's possible with beef stew.

• 17:28Bill Simmons?

  We have a, we have some open for a reason guys on both teams.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  A lot of them.

• 17:32Bill Simmons?

  I assume, I assume the Cavs will probably just put hard it on Thompson.

• 17:38Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 17:38Speaker 04

  Uh, maybe. I mean, you could, you could put, you could put Evan Mobley there if you want to have him as a help defender. I mean, it's one of the reasons why Suggs was guarding a star Thompson is to have your best help defender, you know, be the help guy. So they could do, some people put their centers on Thompson and sort of risk it. They could put Jared Allen there and put Mobley on Stewart. There's a lot of different things they could do.

• 17:57Bill Simmons?

  Was that a Kenny Atkinson, I say my job game tonight?

• 18:02Speaker 04

  It would have been interesting off season in Cleveland. I mean, you remember we did our, our draft of all the playoff guys and one of them was hot seat, sneaky hot seat category coach. And I said Kenny Atkinson or Chris Finch, Chris Finch has answered all the questions. And I said, by the way, I don't think either of them should be, but I do think this is a very pressurized season for Cleveland, which is why that second quarter felt so fraught, because you know, everything that's at stake, particularly when you make a trade like Garland for Harden, like your, your messaging to your team is pretty clear. Like, hey, guys, it's, it's kind of now, like, let's do it.

• 18:35Bill Simmons?

  What do you think LeBron was doing watching that game? Like deep down rooting for Toronto to open up a Cleveland possibility because we still don't have a LeBron team next year.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  Don't you think?

• 18:45Bill Simmons?

  It might be the Lakers at this point.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  Don't you, well, I mean, why wouldn't it be the Lakers? Like what, again, a lot of it comes down to money, right? Like what kind of deals are you going to be willing to take? But the LeBron that played the last two months of the season with Reeves and Luca, those, it worked perfectly fine. Don't you, wouldn't you think LeBron is relaxing and or, I don't know if you've heard this, but he spends a million dollars a year on his body. So he might be, he might be trying to get ready for the freaking Oklahoma City Thunder. I'm, that's what I'm going to assume was happening.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  You know, I think I was ground zero.

• 19:14Speaker 04

  He's 41, Bill. I don't, like, I don't know if you've looked that up recently. He's 41 years old. LeBron, LeBron James.

• 19:21Bill Simmons?

  Oldest player ever to do, name 130 things. I was ground zero for the LeBron spends a million dollars a year on his body story.

• 19:29Speaker 04

  Really?

• 19:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because I did it in 2016. I did it on a pod because I spent time with somebody in his circle who was telling me that. So I talked about it and for some reason we got aggregated and became a story. But I'd like to, like to feel like I was Dr. Oppenheimer for that one. Just kept going for the next nine years. I always like to throw Oppenheimer.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, I don't know if you want to keep comparing yourself or other people to Dr. Oppenheimer.

• 19:55Bill Simmons?

  You know, he's, now they're making movies about him.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  Maybe my favorite Christopher Nolan movie, by the way. Oppenheimer.

• 20:01Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, it might be.

• 20:04Bill Simmons?

  Over the Dark Knight?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. I loved Oppenheimer. I thought it was, I thought it was, I thought it was a masterpiece.

• 20:13Bill Simmons?

  I didn't even know where to go after that. By the way, you just made me think of something that I absolutely loved. No, it was just, just a totally random thing I was going to do later, but somebody, so this guy, Achester99 on Twitter.

• 20:27Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 20:28Bill Simmons?

  He somehow went through and found the record holder for points, for every point total between zero and 100.

• 20:43Bill Simmons?

  So for instance, Greg Kite has the most zero point games in NBA history at 295. 295 zero point games. This was the one that broke my brain. It might be the greatest stat I've ever heard of.

• 20:59Bill Simmons?

  One point games.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  Somebody had 61 one point games and it's somebody that played in the last 25 years.

• 21:10Bill Simmons?

  And you won't guess it because this is impossible. Reggie Evans had 61 one point games.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  You know, I was actually going to say it would have to have been like an inferior version of Dennis Rodman. Like someone who's just out just like that. And that's because Rodman was too good. It was scrounged his way to six or five or eight or whatever, but they would have to be a player like that.

• 21:31Bill Simmons?

  Your league leader with at for six point games, Michael Cage at 151.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  Similar.

• 21:36Bill Simmons?

  He's on the board.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  Similar guy.

• 21:38Bill Simmons?

  My guy, Robert Parish, three different holders at 14, 16 and 18. Our guy, Tim Duncan, 19 points games. He had the most at 88. And then, uh, and then our guy Dirk Nowitzki. Bring this up next time you're on the Amazon show. He, he is the career leader in 21 point games with 82.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  82. What's the biggest number? Like who like, so is 253 the greatest single? Number of any kind of games on the list?

• 22:09Bill Simmons?

  Harvey Ketchings at 193 and Greg Kite that he had 193 two point games, Harvey Ketchings.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 22:16Bill Simmons?

  Greg Kite had 295 for zero.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  295.

• 22:21Bill Simmons?

  So Karl Malone is there for 23 and 24. What's weird is Kareem wasn't on here, which I was surprised. And then it gets to 25 and LeBron has the record for 25, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37. And he's tied at 38. And Jordan only has 38, 39 and 40. And then we move into like Jordan will territory.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  What a crowd. I got you got to send me the.

• 22:47Bill Simmons?

  I read, I'll, I'll send this to you. I was reading it for, for literally 45 minutes. I've, I've been more riveted by anything on Twitter.

• 22:55Speaker 04

  I mean, it's just, it's a, it's a high class, high intellect version of name some guys like, oh, Greg Kite, Harvey Catchings, Michael Cage. It's just like, let's name some guys, but it has math attached to it. So I like it.

• 23:07Bill Simmons?

  Derek Fisher has two different ones, five and seven point games. He has the records for both, but T R Dunn has the four point game. I really love this. I need more, I need more content like this in my life. Um, so, uh, so Cleveland barely beats a team that had settled in crunch time in game six. C N B, a rookie, Jamal Shed, R J Barrett, Scotty Barnes and Walter. That was their, that was basically their money lineup in game six. And then they tried to keep it going. And today probably spent, I'm going to say 75 million combined on those five guys this year. And the guy that gets Cleveland that has Mitchell, Harden,

• 23:50Bill Simmons?

  Mobley, Allen, even Max Druce makes like 17 million a year. Noble effort for Toronto.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 23:56Bill Simmons?

  What happens? Let's play. What do you do with Toronto? What do you do?

• 24:00Speaker 04

  Oh, boy. Uh, well, I have a lot of different things I could do because I've got all my picks. Um, I, my roster is too expensive. Let me bring them up their cap sheet here. Uh,

• 24:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, sadly they're paying Ingram 40 and 41 next two years and quickly 32.5 each of the next three.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think.

• 24:19Bill Simmons?

  Not to mention the Purtle extension we talked about before that gets ugly.

• 24:23Speaker 04

  I think all of those guys have now reached the territory of I have to attach something to get off of them. If we're doing, if we're, uh,

• 24:33Bill Simmons?

  Including Ingram?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  I mean.

• 24:35Bill Simmons?

  All star Brandon Ingram?

• 24:37Speaker 04

  I don't think that player option is, uh, maybe he's neutral and you could put him in it.

• 24:41Bill Simmons?

  Picked it up. I heard it. He just picked it up.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  The player up, nobody likes, no teams like player options. I mean, the quickly deal, which I didn't mind when it happened has not worked out. He just hasn't been healthy enough.

• 24:51Bill Simmons?

  I never liked it.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  You know, Barrett is extension eligible and you know, he's walking in the door being like, hey,

• 24:58Speaker 04

  Most successful Raptor season a little bit here and that was a big part of it. Can we, can we work something out?

• 25:03Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like his game. The more you watch him, he does that crafty lefty stuff. I thought he matched the intensity athleticism of the, of some of the playoff moments.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  They're just in a tricky spot because you know, if they wanted to reach for the stars, right? They've been linked to Yanis before.

• 25:20Bill Simmons?

  What's the trade?

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Or like, is there a trade? Like everyone's gonna ask for Scotty Barnes. He's obviously untouchable. Is there a trade that they can even do that would satisfy the other team and leave them with enough stuff in the cupboard to actually win? I think the right move might just be like, look, we know this team, this team probably is a little better than we thought. Based on our playoff performance, they're a pretty good team. We know what they are. Let's not get too crazy here and just see who can rehab their trade value a little bit. Maybe there is some sort of get out of jail free card with one of these contracts. We've got all our picks. CMB is over here with Scotty Barnes. Like that dude is awesome and I'm not doing anything foolish with him. I want him on my team for a long time.

• 25:58Bill Simmons?

  I like Walter too.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Walter's good.

• 26:00Bill Simmons?

  I think he's a keeper.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, they learned some good stuff about some of their young players in this series. Like Walter was totally up for this, made some big shots, had a little slump in the middle of the series.

• 26:09Bill Simmons?

  Chad's a nine man rotation guy. Yeah. So they have a couple. The problem is that Pirtle extension kills them for a Yanis thing. Cause if, if, if that wasn't attached to the end, and when you talked about go crazy, like that was crazy when it happened and now it seems even crazier. But you could have had expirings and RJ expiring and two years left, or one year, that would have been expiring for Pirtle. So basically that would have been your expiring package and they have all of their picks. They have everything. So they can do every combination of picks and swaps. So that, if Yanis had said, send me to Toronto, they at least could have had something semi respectable. I'm not sure they're going to be able to get there the way it is now.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Grady Dick just not being able to play is a pretty big disappointment.

• 26:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, what happened with that? You liked him for a split second, didn't you?

• 26:56Speaker 04

  He can do some stuff. He just hasn't made enough shots and he's not good enough defensively. And he's got some, Walter just passed him and there was only room for one of them in the rotation. And that's.

• 27:07Bill Simmons?

  Did he do enough that he can get a Grady Dick was a problem Twitter video in like 10 years?

• 27:12Speaker 04

  Easily. We can make it this week if you want. It could be at least three and a half minutes long.

• 27:17Bill Simmons?

  All right, good. I just wanted to make sure he at least had that.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Only the half of the video would be jersey swaps. The other half would be his actual plays.

• 27:26Bill Simmons?

  True. The big thing for them was Barnes had a great season. He went up a level. I am not sure he could be the best guy on a championship game, but he can definitely be the second best guy and he might even be able to be the Jalen Brown with his version of Tatum.

• 27:45Bill Simmons?

  I thought, you know, physically, athletically, competitively, he has everything. There's just, it's really hard for him to create his own offense. He could do it. It never feels great. It's very similar to where Igudala was in those Philly years. And even that one Denver year where it's like, he can do it. It's probably not a great sign for your team if he's the one doing it. And he's so much better if he's kind of over here. So they got to figure that out and I don't know how they figure it out with the roster they have.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  I think the mid ranger is coming along. I felt more confident in it in the series than I had before. And I really think he is the guy that would have benefited most from the idea of what Emmanuel quickly was supposed to be for this team, sort of a good shooting, like half point guard, half spot up guy. Doesn't need the ball, but can work with it, can run pick and rolls both ways with Scotty. And just sort of loosen the defense up in ways that a guy like Shad can't do. We just like, haven't seen quite enough of that combination over the last, you know, two seasons to really see what it could be. But Scotty left a lot of guys this year, like, like he left a lot of guys behind him in the NBA player rankings.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  Like Banker, it's not close right now. Well, maybe it's close, but like he left a guy.

• 29:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't think so.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  He left guys like that and then he might make all NBA and it wouldn't be like illegitimate. He had a great year and tough as shit in the playoffs. He was ready for all of it, played super hard.

• 29:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm in a thought bubble, a trade that I would love them to do and you're probably going to jerk backwards and then be upset and maybe go deep in the thought for like five seconds. Brandon Ingram for Kevin Durant.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  Okay, so if I'm the Rockets, why am I doing that?

• 29:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm getting off of Kevin Durant.

• 29:36Speaker 04

  Wow, just, just.

• 29:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm just moving on. Just a lot of baggage.

• 29:43Bill Simmons?

  I'm just gonna get out of that one. Money's about the same.

• 29:48Bill Simmons?

  And Durant gets to, probably wouldn't be psyched about going to the team that their fans cheered when he, when he tore his Achilles during the finals. I don't know if he'd be super pumped about that one, but you could, you could work with them.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  I, I don't love the Ingram fit in Houston with the other pieces that they have. I'd rather try to trade Durant and aim a little differently.

• 30:14Bill Simmons?

  But how many teams are actually really think, gonna talk themselves into being the latest team that potentially could become unhappy? Just by sheer coincidence that Kevin Durant showed up and then things became unhappy?

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Teams would talk, he's still Kevin Durant. He's gonna make an all NBA team this year. Did you vote him all NBA?

• 30:35Bill Simmons?

  I sure did.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  So, I mean, there you go. He will, he's got just next year and then a player option, which is interesting. I think, I think some good teams would, would kick the tires and give Houston stuff that makes more sense, Dan Brenninger. But I will say, I don't know if you read the Athletic, what now they tell us story about the Rockets yesterday, did you catch that?

• 31:01Bill Simmons?

  I loved it.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, but it wasn't, there was nothing in it that was particularly revelatory.

• 31:05Bill Simmons?

  I just love when they happen.

• 31:07Speaker 04

  Because I think we've all sort of made the calls and made the rounds and had the meetings of like, okay, so no one is really denying that this was actually Kevin Durant on the texts and burners and like, and they had some lines in there like, sources say it was a big issue within the organization and but yeah, it was. And yeah, no one on the record, off the record, privately, publicly has come out and said, no, no, it was actually wasn't Kevin Durant, which I don't know what else to conclude from that other than it seems like it was Kevin Durant.

• 31:40Bill Simmons?

  It's too bad. We'll save the rest of it for our deep dive this summer.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  I mean, do you disagree?

• 31:47Bill Simmons?

  I, nobody has come out and denied it. Um, all evidence suggests that it is. It seemed to have had a before and after impact on the team. And, um, it seems like it was him.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  And they had also, there was also lines in the story that were, were like, the whole team came together and agreed to just like, squash it, keep it in house. We're not talking about it. Like the whole thing in the, in the athletic story, which I've also heard similar like meetings took place. Was just like, it was what, it was a huge issue. Whatever it was, it was a big issue.

• 32:22Bill Simmons?

  Taking a break for the pod, continuing to go here on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible. The workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetrades. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. It's three, so we know all the series and Lakers, Oklahoma City. You basically can't even bet on Oklahoma City for the series. It's like you have to risk $3,000 to win a dollar.

• 33:31Bill Simmons?

  The, the odds for the series though, a sweep is plus 125 on FanDuel.

• 33:38Bill Simmons?

  And OKC four to one is plus one seventy-five and then the odds get progressively wonkier.

• 33:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 33:44Bill Simmons?

  We just had two massive upsets last round with the Lakers upsetting the Rockets and the Sixers upsetting the Celtics that from a money line standpoint were two of the biggest upsets we've had in the last fifteen years. I do not think this will be the case. Is there any sort of case you could make that doesn't involve Luca comes back and immediately goes nuts and I don't even know how they would win two games.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  I mean, Luca comes back plus Jalen Williams remains out would have been a roadmap towards an interesting series.

• 34:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  I it doesn't seem like I mean, the latest updates on Lucas, he's still a bit away.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  And I just don't know that even with even if JDub, who's I mean, when's the last time they played at this point a week ago if they had a week off now?

• 34:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, I mean, their practices are probably more competitive than than first round was.

• 34:41Speaker 04

  You know, I I just don't see a roadmap for the Lakers without Luca to really make it a competitive series. There'll be some competitive games. They'll slow it down and play their old man basketball and like whatever, but you know, it's still you're still asking a lot of Marcus Smart and Rui Hachimura and Jake Laravia and guys that are just like the Thunder have just better guys than that.

• 35:02Bill Simmons?

  Tough series for LeBron coming off a really fun series for him and, you know, being the best guy in a playoff series at age forty-one, all that stuff. And now you have the OKC pit bulls being unleashed on you.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  Well, it's like it's like the father time. Father time is like the whole metaphor is just this series. Father time versus LeBron. Here's team father time, like a bunch of guys who are twenty-five and younger and awesome at basketball that you are forty-one and just you have at it.

• 35:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're laughing at father time LeBron. Enjoy it for the next two weeks. Biggest playoff series upsets?

• 35:36Bill Simmons?

  The biggest one in the last 30 plus years was that Nuggets Sonics one. The Nuggets were plus 1400. But then we had Cavs Pacers last year Pacers were plus 425 and then.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  That's number two.

• 35:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, that that recently.

• 35:55Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 35:56Bill Simmons?

  No, number two was, we believe 12.

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Oh, sure.

• 36:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And then 2012 Bulls Sixers. The Sixers were nine to one, but Rose got hurt at the end of game one that they were winning. And then there's, there's a bubble one in here and Celtics Sixers eight to one Bucks Heat. From 23 Celtics Knicks is on here from 25. The Knicks were plus 550. For some reason. So, yeah, I don't think there's a lot to discuss with this one. It does with that. We talked about it briefly in part one about Edwards coming back from Minnesota.

• 36:36Bill Simmons?

  Anything intrigue you about Minnesota other than the obvious, which is that they're a bunch of badasses who are unafraid of everybody. There's some Gobert Wemby. Edwards maybe convincing himself he's the best player in the series. Some of those Spurs young guys maybe getting a little tight. Say, what, what's the roadmap here?

• 36:54Speaker 04

  The roadmap is just underestimate the Turnbull Wolves at your own peril. Like they've proven it over and over again. This is like whatever happens in the regular season. Cool. They go up, they go down. They play up to the competition and down to it. They're a really good playoff team. They're down one key guy. And we got to see how IO looks and how Ant looks like they were down a lot of guys by the end of that series. But they bring a lot to the table in any matchup. They're big, they're strong, they're tough, they're going to defend. And there's a lot of interesting subplots to this series, starting with Ant and like the Ant Steph Castle matchup is just going to be

• 37:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Halacious from Steph will get the assignment on him presumably for a lot of the series. You know, I just.

• 37:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to say nobody under 12 courtside for this series. Just to be safe. Somebody brought a baby to one of the Laker games. There's like a four month old baby courtside. I just feel like that's, you know, you have to, you should have to really answer to. Some sort of parent court for that.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  And I was, I did spend some time last week watching some Spurs Wolves just matchups just to see like who guards Wemby? How do they do that? And there was just guys have been injured off and on the entire, we've barely gotten to see the real teams play against each other. But Gobert did guard Wemby for the most part when Gobert was healthy and Wemby was healthy. And Steph did guard Ant for the most part. And there's just a lot of, look, Spurs are better. Spurs have home court. They're healthier. They'll probably win, but I think Minnesota can make it a long series and I think they could win the series.

• 38:23Bill Simmons?

  Wemby shooting threes and actually making them versus what Joker did last round would be one way to mess with Gobert a little bit.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, always.

• 38:32Bill Simmons?

  Zombie Mike Conley? Can it keep going?

• 38:36Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 38:37Bill Simmons?

  The zombie that bit him, how long are the effects?

• 38:40Speaker 04

  I mean, he's, he, he, just give me 12 minutes, 12 good minutes, Mike, 12 good minutes.

• 38:45Bill Simmons?

  That was unbelievable. I thought he was washed up two years ago. Minnesota to win in seven is 15 to one. Minnesota to win in six is 13 to one. Spurs sweep, two to one Spurs sweep and then Spurs in five plus 195, which I think would be the smart pick.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  So gentleman's sweep is the, is the favorite.

• 39:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe Minnesota wins three.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna give Minnesota at least another game. I'm gonna dig in a little bit more tomorrow. I'm gonna dig in a little bit more tomorrow, watch a little more, do a little more research, but I, my inclination is to not underestimate the Wolves.

• 39:19Bill Simmons?

  They've certainly proven it and they've certainly proven that they've taken the nobody believes in us NFL mentality. Chris Finch, after the, after the win was not shy about saying, hey, they wanted us to that whole thing.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  I loved it. I loved it. I mean, those two teams legitimately hate each other and it's awesome.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  I just want one, it needs to happen once where Ant's got a bit of a runway and Wemby's the last line of defense. And Ant says, I'm going for it. And I don't know, I don't know what will happen. Like there could be just the rim could break, the backboard could break, fans could be injured. I don't know, but I want to see it.

• 40:01Bill Simmons?

  It's Superman two. Superman's flying into one of those guys in the air and there's.

• 40:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's why a puff of smoke.

• 40:10Bill Simmons?

  Do you want to guess what the FanDuel line is for Pistons Cavs for the series? Cause it's out. Who do you think's favored?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  I think it's, I think the Cavs are favored by a very small amount.

• 40:23Bill Simmons?

  The Pistons are favored by a very small amount.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 40:26Bill Simmons?

  By a few small beers, minus 122.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  A few small beers.

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  Cavs in seven is six to one. Pistons in seven is four to one. Cavs in six is plus 340.

• 40:42Bill Simmons?

  I would, I would probably go exact games over the, uh, the series betting in this. Really tough one. Honestly, this probably a stay away is a serious bet.

• 40:51Speaker 04

  But we can't stay away tomorrow.

• 40:53Bill Simmons?

  I know. I, I think we're both leaning slightly toward the Cavs, but I, I certainly would have bet my life on either one of these.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do more of my homework tomorrow. I didn't do my homework yet because I, I wasn't gonna do double the homework in the series. Cavs Raptors just took forever. Pistons Magic took forever. So I gotta do all my homework tomorrow.

• 41:11Bill Simmons?

  And then Philly Knicks, Knicks minus 260 over Philly. Philly's plus 215 as underdogs. And then, uh, if you want Knicks in seven, which would be great, that's plus 380. Sixers in seven is eight to one and Sixers in six is plus 550. And if you wanted to go nuts, you could bet the Sixers sweep at 25 to one.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  That's a ballsy bet.

• 41:38Bill Simmons?

  Plus 550. Yeah. That's gonna be the best of the four series. Unless we get Ant really looking like Ant again. But I think Knicks, all the storylines with this Knicks Sixers series. Real animosity with the Knicks and the fans toward Embiid for multiple incidents from previous years. The Maxey versus Brunson, kind of each, each side not being able to stop the other. And now they're probably not even gonna guard each other.

• 42:08Bill Simmons?

  The Townsend bead. Which that rekindled this weekend. I'd forgotten about the tweets from 2019. What else? And then OG Ananobi being the best player in the world. There's a lot of different storylines we have going. What else do you like?

• 42:21Speaker 04

  I had forgotten about the cat and bead stuff from all those years ago. So that's very exciting. And I'm glad that everyone has done their job and dredging it back up for added animosity. Mitchell Robinson and bead stuff is well known. I think it's a big McHale Bridges series, like, you know, good finish to the Hawks series in the last game, found his equilibrium a little bit on offense. He's gonna get, I would guess he'll get the maxi assignment from the jump. He's been their primary guy. It's a really tough assignment for the Knicks. They don't have a great option. I mean, not that many people do, but you know, Ananobi's tried it, Harts tried it. They tend to trend bigger defensively and not smaller and quicker. And Bridges, it's like, you know,

• 43:05Speaker 04

  everyone's gonna laugh at that trade forever. As Brian Windhorst, our friend always says, if you win a championship, every trade's good, every trade's an A plus, every trade's fine. And so like, here's a series that's kind of tailor made for you. To, you don't have to score 22 points. You don't have to run as many pick and rolls as you did in Brooklyn. That guy, fine. Be Phoenix, be Phoenix McHale Bridges. And play the best defense you played as a Nick and get us 14 points a game and like, we're all gonna be happy.

• 43:30Bill Simmons?

  My guess is they use Bridges to do the 94 feet thing on Maxey. And then bring some Josh Harden for that and then Alvarado for five minutes a half. And just, just putting bodies on him. The entire court at all times. It's not always gonna work. He's, he's gonna be faster than everybody. He's gonna get to the basket. But I think that's what you're gonna have to do. You have to approach it as, we gotta cut the head off on this one, on this team. He's the head. We gotta cut it off.

• 43:56Speaker 04

  Alvarado and Embiid are gonna have a moment at some point in the season where Alvarado is just gonna be like annoying him or like, Embiid's gonna be like, what is this thing down here that's annoying me? I don't like it. And Jose Alvarado is gonna get all offended by it's good that that's gonna happen.

• 44:09Bill Simmons?

  The Embiid flopping at MSG is gonna be appointment viewing. They, they've already conditioned to really hate it. I know the Celtics fans were not big fans. And I, and then you have the Towns piece of it too. Where you, you could see a couple of double flops. You could see Towns recoiling in horror as Embiid is flopping the other way and it's like a flop off. Almost like an eight mile when we had the rap battles.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Every team's got a flopper. Okay, there's flop, there's floppers everywhere. Jalen Brunson has not been averse to the occasional head snap floppy there. Like there's,

• 44:45Bill Simmons?

  He's another one. You're right. He, he coming around a screen could go fly. That could be another flop off.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, it's, and the crowd reactions will be awesome and every player will act as if they definitely didn't flop. And I just want people to start using the flop sign more often because I think it's really fun. Let's bust it out. I love, I, I loved Embiid talking shit to the fans in Boston during the game, telling them to be quiet. It was like a kind of, it was a new level of bravado for him because it was like, could have gone badly. If you blow the game that ends up looking badly and he was fine with it. And I like,

• 45:18Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, he's always done it though. Like even in 2018, he was, he was doing it. We were like, dude, you just got in the league. What are you doing? And I, yeah, he, he loves it. It gets him going.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  And I love that he told Philly fans, don't sell your tickets. Get all the tickets. We can't have these Knicks fans coming down on Amtrak, overpaying for our tickets. We don't want it to sound like Madison Square Garden. He laid, he laid down the gauntlet for the Sixers fans who have been waiting, waiting for this team. So let's do it.

• 45:42Bill Simmons?

  Who is this a more painful series loss for? I would say the Knicks, like for the fanbases. This is like, if I'm the Knicks right now, if I'm a Knicks fan, the seas have parted over the last week. Detroit looks incredibly vulnerable. So does Cleveland. The Celtics are out. You had this whole Tatum revenge thing lurking. That's gone. You have this Philly team that you've already had a lot of success with and there's just a clear roadmap now. Like this is the year. Right? This, this is the best chance I think they're ever going to have in the East to win this year, right now, next four weeks.

• 46:18Speaker 04

  It's, it's amazing how it's turned from Hawks series is not going well. We got to fire the coach. We like, what's the honest trade this summer? What's the move to now? Like, oh, where the, the East is broken right for us. The more painful series loss is definitely the Knicks. As painful as it would be for Philly and their fans to get a taste of this and then have the rug pulled out in the same round where the rug is always pulled out for them. I think to get that, those three games against that team, the Celtics, and to vanquish them the way they did and to just get a glimpse of what this team could be. If they continue to play well and lose to the Knicks, I still think it feels like a fun season with some hope for next season for the Sixers.

• 46:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we got to see Embiid play meaningful basketball again. Backsy became a guy. We clearly have something pretty special in Edgecombe. We'll see how far it goes. And we resuscitated Paul George.

• 47:11Speaker 04

  And we eliminated the number two seed, Boston Celtics, our ancient, ancient rival for the first time in a long, long time.

• 47:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, first time since 82.

• 47:21Speaker 04

  In pretty heartbreaking fashion for them. Like, you gotta take some joy out of that if you're Philly.

• 47:26Bill Simmons?

  Philly's plus 650 to win the conference. The Knicks are plus 145. What's interesting about that is I kind of think whoever wins this series goes to the finals because I think if the Sixers win the series, that will mean that what we just saw for two and a half games was actually real, for real. And then they ran through the Knicks and, you know, from a talent standpoint, they're top four. If everybody's healthy and Paul George is playing like that and Embiid is fine, like you'd probably put that against any other top four. I still think the Knicks are gonna win. I would pick the Knicks. But, listen, man.

• 48:07Bill Simmons?

  The Sixers, if they're gonna play like they played the last two and a half games, it's a hard team to play.

• 48:12Speaker 04

  No question. I will also pick the Knicks. I would lean Knicks in seven right now. I'm gonna do more work on it tomorrow.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  But I think Cleveland to Detroit should feel exactly the same way. They should have the same attitude of like, oh, this is open for us. I know that they haven't.

• 48:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  You know, an eighth seed took Detroit the distance, an undermanned Raptors team took Cleveland the distance, but every matchup is different. Every matchup is gonna feel different. And whoever wins that series should not be afraid of the Sixers. Like, can they stay healthy this whole time? The Knicks? I mean, Detroit played the Knicks to the hilt last year in the first round. I think both those teams should feel that way, too.

• 48:50Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I've

• 48:54Bill Simmons?

  Detroit going to the death store, basically that Orlando series and having to take every single ounce of everything just to win in seven. I don't think was an awesome sign for them. And then Cleveland against Toronto, losing two guys, like even just not finishing Toronto in six. Not a great sign for them. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a three one series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them.

• 49:39Bill Simmons?

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• 50:23Bill Simmons?

  Entry deadlines, prizes and details. I'm either. We, I gotta do a couple more. What do you do is quick. Okay. What do you do if you're Atlanta? And you have Jalen Johnson at 120 for four. Daniels at 100 for four. Okongwu at 16 and 17. Alexander Walker 14 and 15. You're stuck with Kispert at 13 and 13. You got Richa Shea at 13 next year. Kaminga is a free agent. CJ is a free agent. And you have that New Orleans first rounder that might be in the top four. You'll be at the lottery a week from now.

• 50:57Bill Simmons?

  You could create up to 29 million in cap space if you get creative. So you could do something like we discussed in part one where you could trade Daniels in the pick and try to get a franchise guy or, you know, an all NBA guy or an all star, whether it's Jalen, Giannis, whoever. Or you could just say, I like what we have. Let's re-sign McCollum. Let's try to lowball Kaminga and maybe bring him back for one more year to see what we have. And let's try to nail this pick and look at the late 2020s for when we make a run. What would you do?

• 51:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, the first thing I gotta do is see what happens in the lottery and who I can get and where I'm picking. My inclination is almost regardless of that.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  Given the state of the East in general, like, I mean, we'll see what the Pacers are just sort of sitting over here as the forgotten man in the East that's going to come back. You know, hopefully full health.

• 51:49Bill Simmons?

  Not if they get a top four pick, they will not be forgotten.

• 51:52Speaker 04

  That, well, that's true too.

• 51:53Bill Simmons?

  They'll be adding Halliburton, Zubots and one of the four picks in a generational draft.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Or trading it for who God knows what, but probably knowing Indiana and the way they generally operate, just making the pick and saying, we're thrilled to do this. My inclination, if I were the Hawks, would be, I, let me let this marinate a little bit before I do anything too aggressive, depending on where I pick. And I like a Kung Lu, I like Alexander Walker. I think Daniels is an interesting player. I'm obviously not trading Jalen Johnson. Reese Shea is the one we just got to figure out. How do we revive this? And if not, what do we do? But let's, let's see where the lottery bells fall first. I don't, I mean, what's the aggressive move for them? What's, what's the other, what's the, the big move? I mean, if I would poke around on things like, just, you know, it's, it's not just Giannis

• 52:43Speaker 04

  or Stan Pat, right? Like, there's a bunch of middle ground stuff. Like, are there, I'd have to go through the rosters. Are there guys we could pick off, you know, that are a little bit better than one of the guys we have now? Is there like a Durant? Like, is that interesting to us at all? We mentioned Jalen Brown before, that's a little high price, but just is, are there smaller moves I can do around the fringes? Cause I don't, you know, and McCollum, I think, would like to go back there and there's got to be a number that works. He was so good for them.

• 53:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would say they probably need some size and a point guard who could learn under the tutelage of returning free agency J McCollum. And there's a ton of point guards in this draft and they're going to end up with somebody good. So we agree, wouldn't do much there. Portland's a little more interesting. Denny is at 13 million in next season and 12 million the year after that, which is just probably the best contract in the entire league. Right? I would even have that over the Pritchard who's making like 7 million a year. They have Holiday at 34 and 37. They have Green at 34 and 36. They have Sharp 90 for four and Kamara 81 for four. And they have Dame 13 and 14 and they have Scoot and Klingon still on rookie deals.

• 53:54Bill Simmons?

  So they don't, they're going to be a tax team next year and maybe even like bumping toward the second tax that they spend. They have all their picks from 27 to 30. They have a Milwaukee first swap. They get the best one out of Boston, Milwaukee in 29 and another Milwaukee swap in 30. So they have stuff to trade and they have an owner who is already getting stories written about him every day for how cheap he is. So I don't know what to make of this.

• 54:20Speaker 04

  And he doesn't like it. I don't know if, well, at first I heard he doesn't care.

• 54:23Bill Simmons?

  Who likes it? Who likes being called sheep?

• 54:25Speaker 04

  Well, that, but their first wave of news was he doesn't care. He reads it all and he doesn't care. And then, then he's being defended by the GM, Joe Cronin, it's just not accurate what, what, what he's portraying. Look, the stories have not been refuted. Like the guys were in the freaking lobby because they couldn't get late checkouts. Like that's the thing that happened.

• 54:43Bill Simmons?

  He does care. He paid for subs the other day for everybody. Everybody got a roast beef sub.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  I don't like roast beef. I'll take a turkey, turkey over roast beef.

• 54:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, turkey. He's roast beef and turkey and he even had a couple of tunas.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, you know, there's this Yanis noise that's out there.

• 55:05Bill Simmons?

  I started the noise a month ago and then, then found out that Yanis didn't want to go to the West Coast.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  I don't.

• 55:11Bill Simmons?

  Yanis wants to go to the East Coast.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  I don't really know. I don't know. I don't, I'm struggling to wrap my brain around that one. Yeah, I don't like, they're a weird team because does anyone want Jeremy Grant's contract? Even, even Drew Holiday was spectacular when he was healthy this year. The, the player option in 27, 28 is pretty pricey. I got to figure out Scoot. Scoot's extension eligible. It's, it feels, I mean, every team like Portland is just facing the same dilemmas like, yeah, we're pretty good. We, we're a young, rising team with a lot of assets. Um, we don't have anyone on our team nearly as good as anyone that Oklahoma City and San Antonio has at the top of their roster. How are we going to ever compete with those two teams and how do we get there? And I don't know. I don't know what the answer is for Portland.

• 55:58Speaker 04

  Other than I, I do like that they're building around this defense, defense, defense, identity. And like, we're at least going to make things hard for everybody we play.

• 56:07Bill Simmons?

  Someone else. I like where they are. I don't really understand the Dame contract at all, why they did it, why they paid him for a year not to play. That was weird.

• 56:17Bill Simmons?

  But for the most part, I'm fine with the Drew contract. It's two years.

• 56:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's good.

• 56:20Bill Simmons?

  Next year, and then the final years then expire. And that's fine. Grant's a little tougher. So

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  we don't think this is like a

• 56:30Bill Simmons?

  let's go nuts and get somebody awesome team. This could be another Durant destination, by the way.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I, I think that Durant price point might not be that high if he does get traded. And I don't know that he is going to get traded, like, but does Houston have to trade him?

• 56:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, let's, they were next on my, what do you do? KD at 44 and 46. Shengun at 35, 37, 39, and Jabar is at 23, 22, 24. They have FVV for 25 next year. Finney Smith, 39 for the next three. Adams for two more in double figures and Capela. Adams and Capela are basically 20 and 18 the next two years. Then they have a Thompson extension. And they have Reed Shepard, but the, the thing with them, they have some really nice picks. They're going to have that swap with Brooklyn. Next year, they're going to have the Phoenix first. They have their own first and they have a Phoenix Dallas swap in 29. The Brooklyn one, I think we have to start really thinking about

• 57:27Bill Simmons?

  Brooklyn as a team that might do some dramatic stuff this summer. Because anytime we've seen a team with cap space in the position of this pick could come back to haunt us, they usually get a little more aggressive. Heading into that season, right? Which made me wonder, like, could they be a destination for? Pick somebody who had had an ugly playoff exit.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  I think absolutely they could. I mean, they've been rumored in the honest, like on the fringes of the honest thing. And everyone has been like, well, what, I mean, including me have said, why would he honest go there? Who is he playing with? And I don't know the answer to that question other than I the Nets probably think if we get you honest, we can get somebody else. We have infinite flexibility, tons of picks. You know, when Sean Marks first got there and they were just in the in so deep in the hole of picks owed to Boston and other places, they didn't do the thing where they got aggressive because they didn't control their pick. And we have to save face a little bit. They did the opposite and just ate it as a sunk cost. And I wonder if they have the appetite to do that again. I suspect that you will be right. And they'll try to be a little bit more aggressive than that because that that pick, it's a big asset. And they've got the Phoenix stuff coming as well. Yeah, the Rockets, you know,

• 58:35Speaker 04

  there's an argument to be made that they should just sit tight and see what Van Vliet looks like, see what the team looks like with Van Vliet, Durant, Steven Adams, keep the pick space, what it is, and just take take another shot at it next year.

• 58:48Bill Simmons?

  Or you can even go further and maybe go, you know what? We are contenders and we're not going to really have a chance here with San Antonio and Oklahoma City and even Minnesota. Maybe we should zag the other way. We have these picks coming. We got a bunch of young players, reduce the expectations. Hey, does anybody want Van Vliet on expiring? Does anybody want, you know, this pretty decent Adams contract, even though he gets hurt every year? Is anyone interested in Durant? Just zag.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  I think that's a, I mean, the three paths they have to me are stamp at trade Durant and or Van Vliet in a, in a, in deals that sort of just reset your timeline a little bit about around the young guys or find the home run superstar. We're all in now. We trade Shengun plus picks plus whatever for Yanis or whoever else becomes available. And I think that whoever else becomes available thing is a big wild card in that because the other people, depending on what happens in the playoffs will become, I mean, we've already seen, we talked about it in part one, Denver, basically letting the world know, everybody but Jokic, like our phones are open. So that means Jamal Murray, who else would be, I mean, not, I don't think Denver wants to trade Jamal Murray, but the fact that his name is

• 59:56Speaker 04

  omitted from the do not ask list, according to Shams, is interesting. And but to be clear, Shams didn't say Jamal Murray's name. He just said anybody but Jokic, which obviously includes Jamal Murray. So there'll be other guys like that, depending on how the playoffs go.

• 1:00:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's. You could get like a Durant, Van Vliet's expiring and some draft stuff for Murray.

• 1:00:24Bill Simmons?

  On paper makes sense. I don't know why either team would want to trade with each other. West. And if I'm, if I'm trading Murray, I probably want two pieces back. I, I can't remember if I said this in part one, but I was meaning to say this to you. If I'm, if I'm Denver, I'm doing nothing.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  You didn't, you didn't say that.

• 1:00:42Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I didn't?

• 1:00:43Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'll say it more emphatically. I'm doing nothing. I just had bad luck in a playoff series. I had a weird year. I had Joker playing the best basketball of his entire career, getting hurt. And then Gordon getting hurt twice. And this Minnesota thing just was one of those weird things that happens in the playoffs every once in a while. Only one team can win the title.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  A lot of teams panic after they don't win the title. I just wouldn't panic with, with what I have. So I'd want to be a little more careful. I'd really want to re-sign Peyton Watson. And even if I have to trade Cam Johnson to make that happen, I don't know why they can't just re-sign Peyton Watson, actually spend some fucking money. This, Cronkies are wealthier than just about anybody. Just spend the fucking money. You have Jokic on your team. But I'm bringing back Watson. I'm bringing back all my guys. I got Cam Johnson as an expiring. And I have a little flexibility and let's play it out and see where we are in January. That's gotta be the move. I wouldn't panic.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  Well, that was, my counter was going to be number one. I don't, I just, we talked about this already. I just think you have to assume Aaron Gordon is going to be hit or miss availability wise for the rest of his career.

• 1:01:50Bill Simmons?

  13th year of his career. This is who he is now.

• 1:01:52Speaker 04

  And so I don't, I've got to build my team with that in mind. And counter number two is Peyton Watson. I think they have to bring him back. And that's going to cost you, it's going to cost you money, which we agree. It, it would be great if they just paid and they've ducked the apron and stuff before. I don't think that's likely. And so they're going to have to pay something to get off of Christian Brown or Cam Johnson. And they already owe some significant draft assets out the door to Oklahoma City of all teams in two separate drafts. So I, it'll be interesting.

• 1:02:22Bill Simmons?

  Which is another reason why they're going to be trying to stay really good. Christian Brown, I don't really understand. I thought the extension was too pricey, but it was also in the range of all these other guys that. He was at least in the ballpark of that were getting between low twenties and 25, 26. I don't understand why he was so bad.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  Like, how did he just lose the ability to play offense? And also, why did he stop being a shutdown guy on defense?

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  I don't know that he was ever a shutdown guy on defense.

• 1:02:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, he was their shutdown guy, though. You know what I mean?

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:02:56Bill Simmons?

  Like, he was the guy they would put on the other team's best perimeter guy. And it wasn't glaringly bad like it was this year. He couldn't guard anybody in that series.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  He's, I think he's just, because of the way their team is built and how Gordon has aged and been injured, I think he's just tasked with a role that he's not quite up to. He's a good defensive player, not a great one. And it all comes down 30% on threes. Like, 30% on threes, any mishap this season. Like, that's, and, and I do think the Watson thing, although he shot it really well from three this year, especially from the corners, the two of them playing together, is that gonna, how viable is that gonna be? Because that's your best defensive lineup, is the two of them plus Gordon. Is that, they, they barely played those three together all season. But I, to me, Watson, if, if there's a, if there's a number that makes sense for all parties, and I don't know if Peyton Watson is like, actually itching to go to a place where he would have a bigger role,

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  like, you know, the Lakers are gonna be rumored until the end of time. But I, I want, I want that guy back on my team.

• 1:03:57Bill Simmons?

  And they still are in the driver's seat with it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Bill Simmons?

  They can match any offer.

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Bill Simmons?

  And we, I don't remember the last time somebody just stole a restricted free agent with some crazy offer. You have to go back to like, the Jeremy Lin, Omer Asich era to, to, for the creativity. I just, Peyton Watson and Gordon together as injuries, not as impactful from a talent standpoint as Edwards and De Sumo and De Chench.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  You could just, you could just stop at Edwards, but yeah, include the other guys, too.

• 1:04:34Bill Simmons?

  Obviously not as, but what was interesting about the series was Denver couldn't replace what Gordon gave them at all. Minnesota was somehow able to patch together. You know, they, they lost the three point shooting completely by losing all those guys, but they were somehow able to patch together the defense and the rim attack with all the backups for those guys. Denver couldn't replace anything Gordon did, and that was what sunk them. You know, so, so to your point, like, yeah, you can't count on them anymore, but I also don't know who else they could bring in that could do 75% of what he does.

• 1:05:09Speaker 04

  You just have to hope that Watson, although a much different player stylistically on both ends of the floor, just gives you enough pop and enough size to mimic it and that Gordon still has enough in the tank for a big playoff run here and there. But yeah, the Minnesota thing, man, you can't give them enough credit. They got the big Iowa game. Nas Reed was really good. Conley, Conley was good. Shannon massive in the, in the elimination game. They just, you know, got contributions from everyone. There was almost a, there was a Jalen Clark Jokic near fight in that game, which is, you know, it is interesting that.

• 1:05:39Bill Simmons?

  The hockey mentality, start a fight with the other team's best player.

• 1:05:42Speaker 04

  Well.

• 1:05:43Bill Simmons?

  Hope he fights back.

• 1:05:44Speaker 04

  I, it's part that, but it is, every time it's going bad for Denver, there seems to be a Jokic event in which he's a participant in, sometimes not the initiator, but sometimes yes, the initiator, but I, I don't really know what to make of that.

• 1:06:00Bill Simmons?

  What did you think of the 48 hour celebration that Jokic got bounced in round one?

• 1:06:07Speaker 04

  Was there, was that, who was celebrating?

• 1:06:10Bill Simmons?

  A lot of people, a lot of people were psyched that, uh, all of the Jokic stuff just had a giant fork slammed into it. I thought it was interesting.

• 1:06:20Speaker 04

  I mean, it was, he had a, he had a bad series. He just, he did, like Gobert ate his lunch for a lot of the series. His jumper wasn't there. His defense wasn't good enough. It was a bad series for him. It's, it was his, it was his first real postseason clunker against a team that has their number at this point.

• 1:06:35Bill Simmons?

  The three point shooting was bad. I went back and I looked at his, uh,

• 1:06:41Bill Simmons?

  I went back and I looked at his, his, just his stats in 23 when they won, when they went 16 and 4.

• 1:06:50Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and basically rolled through everybody. His stats were unbelievable that year. That was like one, he was like 31, 14 and 10 and he shot like 47% from three and, you know, it's, you'd look at that and you're like, oh, his stats are still pretty good this year, but compared to where he was, they weren't. So the question for me is at age 31,

• 1:07:16Bill Simmons?

  has he moved into a slightly different echelon of himself as a playoff guy? If the three-point shooting is just not going to be reliable anymore.

• 1:07:23Speaker 04

  I'm not, I'm not going there. I think he still has plenty of time left in his prime and the three-

• 1:07:28Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that's how I feel, but it's a question now.

• 1:07:30Speaker 04

  The three-pointer is a fickle animal, right? And so you, let's say they sneak out that round, maybe he has a hot round the next round. I, I don't worry too much about that. I, I, it, it was eye-opening that he didn't have the same level of answers for Gobert that he's had previously in any, in any, like in the post on the pick and roll and anything. He just didn't have rhythm to his game against Gobert and that we had just not seen him run into a matchup like that before.

• 1:07:55Bill Simmons?

  When teams don't think he can make the three-pointer,

• 1:08:00Bill Simmons?

  I think it changes how they play him, what they want him to do. And I just think Minnesota was super comfortable with it. One thing did happen from that series. Forgot to tell you.

• 1:08:11Bill Simmons?

  I had to drop Joker in my pyramid. A couple of spots, two spots.

• 1:08:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:08:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 04

  Where, what, what does that mean? Where is he?

• 1:08:21Bill Simmons?

  So there's this center right at the end of level, the top level, the pantheon. There's four centers clustered together and I've been moving them around. I, I'm the only one who sees the list. It's not like I'm announcing it, but, uh, it's Hakeem and Shaq and Joker and Moses. I think he's right there with Moses and I think you could, I have him, I have Joker 14, Moses 15. You could talk me into flipping it, but I think Hakeem and Shaq have to be above him at this point. Unless he can rally back with, uh,

• 1:08:54Bill Simmons?

  With some sort of other playoff thing like the only one finals appearance, one title, even Moses got to two finals.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  It's hard. It's hard. It's you're two back to back for Hakeem and.

• 1:09:05Bill Simmons?

  When you're in the top 15, you start to be measured by different crazy, highest possible level things, you know, Hakeem in 95 wins the back to back title and just beats every, every team he beats is awesome. Every center he goes against is awesome. He just destroys everybody and Joker probably needs one of those, I think, to move up.

• 1:09:27Speaker 04

  Well, there's, there's a lot of time, a lot of time left, but I'll tell you.

• 1:09:30Bill Simmons?

  We're all winners though.

• 1:09:31Speaker 04

  I'll tell you those, those top two teams in the West are just like there's always injuries and things go sideways and things are windows are never open as long as you think they're going to be open and finances and all that. But it's hard to see a world where the Thunder and the Spurs are not pretty continuously awesome for let's just say five years. Like we don't have to go too crazy. We don't have to say 10 years, 15 years, whatever. But like barring a catastrophic injury, which could happen, we don't want it to, but it, it just seems unlikely that they are going to be anything but like 58 plus win teams for the next five years.

• 1:10:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's why for the Nuggets, the question is, I'm just studying that 22 Warriors title run.

• 1:10:18Bill Simmons?

  Okay. That was a team. It seemed like their window closed and then it didn't. And they had this transcendent player. A lot of weird shit happened in the league that year. There were a couple injuries. There was a couple upsets and all of a sudden they just swooped in and took it. Could we keep this nucleus together and hang around and hope for a similar situation? The answer would be us. So that's why I don't, I don't think you can panic. I think you gotta keep it together. Um, before we go, you want to tell us about your cameo on an Apple TV show?

• 1:10:48Speaker 04

  Uh, sure. I was on, uh, Your Friends and Neighbors, season two, episode five.

• 1:10:54Bill Simmons?

  A show I watch.

• 1:10:55Speaker 04

  I'll talk about a little more this week, but if, but it was delightful and I had.

• 1:11:01Bill Simmons?

  So it's up now. People can watch you in a scene.

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  People can watch me and OGN and Obi together in a scene at a party. It's a house party scene. One of the people, people who watch the show know one of the characters is a retired NBA star.

• 1:11:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 04

  And so he's hosting a party and they decided to populate it with random NBA people. And one of the producers, shout out Jamie, is just a longtime fan listener and was like, let's write Zach Lowe a role and get him in here. And I spent a day in a mansion in Long Island last year.

• 1:11:31Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't you have been like somebody who got murdered at the beginning of the episode? Like just you could have been a dead body lying in your own blood?

• 1:11:37Speaker 04

  Look, there was, there were, we had a little viewing party at our house on Friday. And I don't know if you saw the episode, there's.

• 1:11:45Bill Simmons?

  I haven't seen it yet.

• 1:11:46Speaker 04

  Even, even by, even by the standards of the show, there's a lot of racy material in this. And they're like, you couldn't have, you couldn't have been like the random Amanda Pete love interest for one episode. No, I could not. That was not, that was not going to be my role on this one.

• 1:12:03Bill Simmons?

  Not negotiate that one with the wife. All right. Well, congrats.

• 1:12:06Speaker 04

  The whole cast was awesome. They were so fun. It was super fun. They made it easy. Cause you know, when you're a fish out of water like that, it's just, it's a little like, do I belong here? Is anyone like, what do I do? And they were all super nice.

• 1:12:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, congratulations. Now I can introduce you as your Friends and Neighbors co-star Zach Lowe.

• 1:12:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm an actor now. I'm an actor, acting.

• 1:12:28Bill Simmons?

  You sign up for SAG.

• 1:12:30Speaker 04

  I guess I could.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  Now you get fees, all that shit. All right. Zach Lowe, thanks for hanging out for the double pod. We're probably not always going to do this, but with two game sevens that we thought were going to be pretty good. Neither of them were. It's fine. This frontier should be fun. I'm, I'm looking forward to next Sixers. Thanks to Gahan Eduardo as well. Thanks to everybody behind the scenes at The Ringer. Thanks to Netflix. There's something about Mary coming tomorrow on the rewatchables and then Zach's back on Tuesday on his podcast, breaking down a whole bunch of stuff. Good to see you, buddy.

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  Always fun. Always fun.

• 1:13:04Bill Simmons?

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• 1:13:48Bill Simmons?

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• 1:14:32Bill Simmons?

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