57: STRATEGIKON: How to Apply Timeless Combat Leadership Lessons to the Battlefield, Business and Life

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:33 - "Strategikon: Handbook of Byzantine Military Strategy", by Maurice 1:41:58 - Final Thoughts 1:49:13 - Interesting Internet stuff and support: Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko`, Amazon Click-thru https://www.amazon.com/?&tag=jocko20-20&camp=216797&creative=498533&linkCode=ur1&adid=1Z46ADEXG1N0HDB5K5DH&, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkqcY4CAuBFNFho6JgygCnA/videos, Psychological Warfare(on iTunes), Jocko White Tea https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KP8PCOU/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=jocko20-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01KP8PCOU&linkId=7a5be93df7a152c7648e5fd6d1287d5b, Extreme Ownership (Book) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1250067057/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=jocko20-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=1250067057&linkId=4e9f38256bc97ec8689c0b026ef263f2, The Muster 002 https://www.extremeownership.com/. 2:18:51 - Closing Gratitude Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 57 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  If the outcome of the battle is favorable, one should not be satisfied with merely driving the enemy back. This is a mistake made by inexperienced leaders who do not know how to take advantage of an opportunity and who like to hear the saying, be victorious, but do not press your victory too hard. By not seizing the opportunity, these people only cause themselves more trouble and place the ultimate results in doubt. There can be no rest until the enemy is completely destroyed. If they seek refuge behind fortifications,

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  apply pressure by direct force or by preventing them from getting more supplies for men and horses until they are annihilated, or else agree to a treaty to our advantage. One should not slacken after driving them back just a short distance, nor after so much hard work and the dangers of war, should one jeopardize the success of the whole campaign because of lack of persistence.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  Good evening, Echo.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  Now that's some direction there on how to pursue your enemy until they are completely destroyed. And that direction comes from a book called Strategikon, a book that's normally accredited to a guy by the name of Flavius Mauricius Tiberius Augustus, or as he is more commonly called Maurice.

• 2:12Jocko Willink?

  Emperor. And he was the emperor of Eastern Rome, which is what we now call Byzantine, a term that wasn't even created until the 16th century. But Maurice was a Roman emperor. He started his journey as a soldier, a general.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  Who campaigned successfully. Against the Persians, the Avars, the Lombards, all over Persia and the Baklans and basically around the Mediterranean Sea. And his. Military experience served him well, and this is the book that he's credited with. And in it, he details a variety of. The mindset of the famous. Roman legion and what it had evolved to, especially as they adopted the strengths of their enemies.

• 3:08Jocko Willink?

  And transitioned to using horses. Along with the use of lances and spears and bow and arrow and swords, again, all these things, using them all together.

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  Much as we do today. What we call combined arms, which is when we attack from the sea and from the air, we land forces and we drop bombs and we use artillery, we use everything. To lock people, get people in the combined arms dilemma. My favorite ideas.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  And something that's that combined arms dilemma is when you're getting attacked with all these from all these different positions, it's very hard to contend with and obviously. They they were able to do this as they adapted different. Their enemies, they adapted what they used, but then they use them together. And so this book, Maurice's book, Strategic Con, captures a lot of those ideas. I know it's no surprise, but a lot of these ideas remain pertinent today.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  And I know it's no surprise, but not only on the battlefield, but also in business and in life.

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  And. Famous historian Charles Omon said about the Byzantine armies in courage. They were equal to their enemies. In discipline, organization and armament. Far superior.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  And we go into the introduction in this book a little bit here because there's some good information to know about.

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  And here we go from the introduction of the book, "They inherited the long tradition of Roman tactics and strategy with its emphasis on constant adaptation to the changing of war."

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  "It was largely this remarkable ability to adapt to new situations and new peoples, which guaranteed the Byzantine military's success." Gotta be adaptable. "The Byzantines, moreover, like the Romans, took warfare very seriously. The Byzantine's war was an art to be practiced by professionals. They possessed books on all aspects of warfare, which were collected, copied over and over again, and read.

• 5:34Jocko Willink?

  The fact that officers in the Byzantine army had to be able to read and write by itself sets it apart from other medieval armies." So, obviously, we do a lot of reading over here. In this tradition, right? This is what set them apart. One of the things that set them apart was the fact that they read and they collected books on this subject.

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  "Byzantine generals carefully studied the habits and tactics of their enemies, whereas Western knights found themselves at a loss when facing unknown foes. The Western European considered himself a good warrior if he could ride and wield his weapons well and if he showed no fear." Okay, so that's cool. You can ride and you can wield your weapons well and you show no fear. For the Byzantine, it was not superior strength or courage which won battles, but after God's favor, thorough planning and intelligence. Nothing could be left to chance. Maurice twice reminds his readers that the Byzantine general should never have to admit,

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  "I did not expect that." Now, let's get, so that's, that's just from the introduction, kind of getting into the book. And now we'll go to the actual book. And I'm not going to go into the whole thing of who actually put these words on the paper. Again, it's credited to Maurice, but did someone else possibly write it and he blessed it? Did he tell someone to write it? Did he have a ghostwriter? I don't know, but he's the guy that's credited as having the, the brains behind it. Starting off here. The training and drilling of the individual soldier. He should be trained to shoot rapidly on foot, either in the Roman or the Persian manner.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Speed is important in shaking the arrow loose and discharging it with force. This is essential and should be practiced while mounted. In fact, even when the arrow is well aimed, firing slowly is useless. He should practice shooting rapidly on foot from a certain distance at a spear or some other target. Imagine you're shooting at a spear with a bow and arrow.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  He should shoot also rapidly mounted on his horse at a run to the front, the rear, right and left. He should practice leaping onto the horse on horseback at a run. He should fire one or two arrows rapidly and put the string, the strong bow in its case. If it is wide enough or in the half case designed for this purpose. And then he should grab the spear which he has been carrying on his back. With the strong bow in its case, he should hold the spear in his hand and quickly replace it on his back and grab the bow. It is a good idea for soldiers to practice all this while mounted on the march in their own country. For such exercises, do not interfere with marching and do not wear out the horses. The reason I had to put this in here is because this is very much what we do in the SEAL teams.

• 8:34Jocko Willink?

  And you're shooting, you're shooting offhand, which means you're shooting with your weak hand. We're reloading magazines with only one hand. So you gotta put the, put the weapon between your legs and you gotta pull the mag. You're doing all this stuff. You're shooting while you're running. You're shooting while you're laying down. You're shooting while you're behind a vehicle. You're shooting from inside a vehicle. You're shooting from outside a vehicle. You're, you're doing all these things, all these different ways, all the time. Because the, the better you get in all these strange situations, the better you're going to perform in these strange situations. And you can apply this to any, you know, a busy, and I've talked about this before, when you're dealing with business. You want to train your people so they can handle these weird situations, you know, be a bad customer. You know, pretend to be the, be a bad, and if you've got leaders that you're training, be a horrible employee. Be that person, put them to the test.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  How are they going to handle employee that flies off the handle? How are they going to handle employee that doesn't fly off the handle and get all verbal, but just goes cold? Oh, what are you going to do now? How are you going to handle this person?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, remember you guys were doing at the muster, you guys were doing that, you did that role playing thing real quick. It was like real quick too.

• 9:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  When.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  I caught Leif off guard. Yeah. Oh, you're going to role play. Alright, let's do this.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you've presented it a little, yeah. But man, that was such a good point though, because you go through one situation, right? And the guy liked, is like, I don't got time for you or whatever, however yours went. And then you're like, okay, and you get to, you get to put yourself through a potential situation. And then at the end of it, you said, okay, look, we just went through that and we did it. And you know, maybe there was problems, maybe not. But now you're familiar with it. Kind of like the lights are on now. You're not going live into a dark room, not knowing, you know?

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  You're doing exactly what Maurice said to do here, which is the most important thing is intelligence.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  So it's combining what, what he's saying, right? The more you prepare for that, and that particular situation that Leif and I did that little role play on.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  He acted like he was a company commander that didn't have time for me.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  And he took it to the next level and said, I don't have time for you because I got guys in combat right now. I got troops in contact. Which is, you know, when you got troops in contact, that's where everyone's going to focus on that. So I'm in there playing this young SEAL officer going, excuse me, Captain, hey, I'd like to talk to you about an operation we're going to do in your area of operations tonight. Leif says, hey, I'm busy. I got troops in contact. Leave me alone. And, and I was kind of taken aback and I said, sir, you know what? Can you just tell me where your ops officers and I'll go talk to him?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:55Jocko Willink?

  And that was it. I overcame it because what else are you going to do?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Jocko Willink?

  But it took me a second. I had to think on my feet. If that ever happened again, I wouldn't have to think on my feet. I have the answer.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  And you went through like.

• 11:05Jocko Willink?

  If you were to do that in a real situation and you stumble, you didn't know what to do, that's a web huge deal. Ah, it's looking bad. You know, you're not giving any confidence. You're saying, hey, I want to come into your area of operations and execute a mission tonight. And I can't even put a sentence together. No, not good. So that's why we rehearse. That's why we rehearse worst case scenarios. That's why you practice shooting on the horse, off the horse, putting your bow away, pulling it back out, throwing your spear. That's what you do. Yeah, it's crazy how even going through it once. One time. That much. Well, when I work with companies, I'll do role play and I'll tell them, watch what happens in three times, three iterations. They get that much better. They'll go from totally stumbling and not being able to handle a bad employee to where the third time they got it. Yeah.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  That's all it takes. Then it was the same thing. We put guys through in the SEAL teams, we put guys through really hard training scenarios. And they would blow it and I'd kill all this is training. I'd kill all the good guys, right? Then I'll be getting hit with paintball. You're dead. You're dead. Next time I say, okay, here's a mistake you made. Let's look at it. What would you do? Step back. What would you do different? Oh, man, I didn't see that. I got, you know, I got drawn to the situation. I should, okay, so let's do it again. They're going to be 50% better the next time. The next, the time after that, we can't even catch them anymore because they got it. Yep. It's crazy. Preparation. All right. Going back to the book.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that Marie says, in actual combat, nobody can properly supervise the entire battle. Since the line is spread out so far and some can desert from their bandits and bandits is, there's two meanings of the word bandits. One is a flag, like this is our flag, but then it's also a group of about 300 troops. So what he's saying is that people can desert, back to the book, unnoticed and give all others an excuse to retreat. If they do retreat, there's no way of turning back or of checking the flight. For nobody is able to get them back since, as we said, the whole army is routed.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  So he said, this is, this is why we need a little bit of decentralized command, right? Cause he's saying you're, no one can, no one's gonna know, you can't keep track of the whole battle. How many people can you keep track of during battle? Four, maybe five. These guys are going into battle with thousands. You can't keep track of them all. So one of the things that they do, and this is sort of a, it's sort of a cover and move scenario. So the way they set up, they set up two lines, instead of just one line, they set up two lines. Back to the book, and there should be two lines, one of them a support. The troops in the front line will fight more eagerly, knowing that their rear is protected by the second line. And that their flanks by the flank guards.

• 13:51Jocko Willink?

  So even if you just know you're covered, man, you're gonna fight harder. Cause you don't have to worry about what else is going on. That's why we do cover and move. Second, a man in the first line is not as likely to run away when he knows there are many other soldiers are stationed to his rear. That is in his second, in the second line and will see anyone deserting his posts. So there's a little psychological. Hey man, I'm not gonna run because the guys are right behind me. They're gonna know.

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  In combat, this can be extremely important. Supposing that the first line retreats or is pushed back, then the second line is there as a support and as a place of refuge. So you gotta back each other up, cover and move.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  Next one. A small army should not prepare to face an organized and more numerous foe in open battle, except in case of necessity.

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  Boom. Don't go, don't go and fight against a bigger, badder opponent with more people. Don't fight against them. Back to the book, if the necessity does arise, do not mass all your troops in front. And even if the enemy number is superior, direct your operations against his rear or his flank. For it is dangerous and uncertain in all conditions and against any people to engage purely frontal combat.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  Even if the enemy stations is a smaller number of troops up front. So this is, we talk about this over and over again. Don't attack the front. Don't attack the hardened position. Next, squads should be made up of old and young men in proportion. Otherwise, the older men, if formed by themselves, may be weak. And the younger inexperienced men may turn out disorganized. So this is, this is obviously important. But sometimes people have a tendency to want to build a super team, right? I'm gonna take all these guys, all the best guys.

• 16:05Jocko Willink?

  You want to make your teams as even as possible. This is a classic example. Don't just take all the old senior guys who have all the experience. But they might not be in the best physical condition. I mean, you take a SEAL platoon, you know, you take a 43 year old SEAL. Now, there's some studs out there, don't get me wrong. But you compare him to a kid that's 24, that's on fire. That guy's gonna, you tell that kid to go climb a ladder, jump up a building. He's gonna do it. They're beasts. So you want to have both those elements in your team. And it's the same thing in a bigger organization or a business organization. Spread out the knowledge and spread out the enthusiasm.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Is that, does that have to do with like, are you saying like a senior guy? He might have a bunch of knowledge versus, you know, a younger guy. He'll have a lot of athleticism and physical capability.

• 17:01Jocko Willink?

  Or in the business world, it could be enthusiasm, right? It could be like, hey, I'm just gonna grind.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Right, hungry young guy.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  Hey, Echo, I'm gonna head home. You take care of this. I got it, boss. Let's do this.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Is that also because, let's say, a young guy who has enthusiasm? And if you, if you mix it up with, instead of all enthusiastic people, you have older guys? They can teach the knowledge to the guy and they, you know.

• 17:25Jocko Willink?

  Yes, we're gonna make our team stronger.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  Next one, various tactics and drills. Constant drill is of the greatest value to the soldier. Each formation drill should be identified in a special way so that the soldiers who are trained in these maneuvers may recognize the differences and not be puzzled by them. I can't even tell you how much you do, what we call in the SEAL teams, they do in the Marine Corps, they do in the Army, immediate action drills. So it's contact drills, when something goes wrong, how you're going to maneuver your troops on the battlefield. And the more you do that, the better you're going to get at it. And the better you get at it, the better you're going to perform in combat. Period, end of story. Is that like a fire drill at home? Yeah, it's like a fire drill at home. It's like a fire drill at home. It's like when you drill jujitsu.

• 18:16Jocko Willink?

  When you say, hey, I'm going to practice this escape. You know, we do that a lot. Jeff Glover makes us do that all the time, is, okay, let the guy basically put you in a triangle. Or Dean will make you go in triangle danger. Or arm lock danger, whatever. So then you're going to drill, how are you going to get out of that? And that way, when you're rolling live, it's an instinct. And it's the same thing with, with this situation, with your military unit. As soon as you make that simple call, flank, you know, punch right, move left, whatever the, peel left, whatever that call that you're going to make, everybody knows what to do. And it provides instant organization and focus and direction to everybody. Everybody, it's weird, you know, there's certain calls in the SEAL teams, certain maneuvers that everybody knows.

• 19:01Jocko Willink?

  If you make one of those calls, like, everyone knows it. Every single person in the entire SEAL community knows exactly what, same thing in the Marine Corps, that Army, there's certain standard operating procedures that you learn in Marine Corps boot camp. If you say it to, to a hundred different Marines that have been assembled for the first time ever in their lives, you say one of these commands, they're all going to get on it. Yeah, yeah, that's good. It's awesome.

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  All right, going back to the book, "Strategy: The Points Which the General Must Consider." "Before the Day of Battle, a ship cannot cross the sea without a helmsman, nor can one defeat an enemy without strategy and tactics. With these and the aid of God, it is possible to overcome not only an enemy force of equal strength, but even one greatly superior in numbers. For it is not true, as some inexperienced people believe, that wars are decided by courage and number of troops, but, along with God's favor, by tactics and generalship.

• 20:09Jocko Willink?

  And our concern should be with these, rather than wasting our time mobilizing large numbers of men.

• 20:21Jocko Willink?

  The leader must take advantage of favorable times and places in fighting against the enemy. First, he must guard against hostile attacks which can injure our men, and then he must attempt to launch the same against the enemy. Above all, he must look for enemy ambushes, sending out frequent and far-ranging patrols in all directions in the area around the battlefield. He must avoid disordered and uncoordinated pursuits." Now, this is, think about where we started this whole thing off. You get the advantage, you get the upper hand in battle, go finish them.

• 20:55Jocko Willink?

  Keep pursuing them until all the enemy is completely destroyed. But he's saying this right here, "He must avoid disordered and uncoordinated pursuits."

• 21:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, my first deployment to Iraq, there was a couple of times we got ambushed. We were in our vehicles, got ambushed, and the urge is, "Stop the vehicles, let's go get these guys." And we didn't do that. On these particular missions, we were going, we had some kind of priority target we were going after, so we're going after a bad guy somewhere. We make it through the ambush. If all of a sudden I say, "Okay, stop, we're gonna go get these guys," like an ego thing, that would basically be an ego thing. "Oh, stop, stop the vehicles, we're gonna go get these guys." Not a good call. We made it through the ambush. We're good. We have a mission to accomplish. Let's report this up the chain of command. Maybe they can get some aircraft overhead or something like that, but

• 21:52Jocko Willink?

  we're not going to just go into this disorganized pursuit of an enemy that actually has the upper hand. Cause we made it through that festival. What else do they have prepared for us? Cause I can guarantee they want you to stop. So you need to think before you just get overly aggressive. Back to the book, "We would not allow the general to take part personally in raids or other reckless attacks. These should be entrusted to other competent officers. For if one of the subordinate officers blunders or fails, the situation may be quickly straightened out. But if the leader of the whole army fails, this fall can open the way to complete disorder. The general is wise who before entering into war carefully studies the enemy

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  and can guard against his strong points and take advantage of his weaknesses." Obvious stuff that we talk about every single day. Back to the book, "Warfare is like hunting. Wild animals are taken by scouting, by nets, by lying in wait, by stalking, by circling around, and by other stratagems rather than by sheer force. In waging war, we should proceed in the same way. Whether the enemy be many or few. To try to simply overpower the enemy in the open, hand to hand and face to face,

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  even though you might appear to win, is an enterprise which is very risky and can result in serious harm. Apart from extreme emergency, it is ridiculous to try and gain a victory which is so costly and only brings empty glory."

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  We're talking about flanking. We're talking about taking, always making sure that the cards are stacked in your favor. That's what we're talking about here.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  And it's, again, it applies in life, it applies in jujitsu. We had a little battle like that today. You were, I was, I was actually, did you see me smiling? I was like kinda laughing because you were boom, coming at me, coming at me. And I was, I was, I was kinda laughing because I was thinking about this podcast and I was thinking, hey, he's going head to head with me, face to face, and I'm gonna flank him.

• 24:22Jocko Willink?

  But that's, that's the way it works. Evidently. Yeah, apparently.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  Alright, back to the book. On the actual day of the battle, the general should not take on too many tasks. He might exert himself too much, become worn out, and overlook some really essential matters. Now that to me is number one, you gotta detach, and number two, you don't want to be in the weeds. If you're trying to get everything you've done yourself, you're gonna overlook some really essential matters. He should not look downcast or worried, but should ride jauntily along the lines and encourage all troops. He should not himself join in the actual fighting. This is not the role of the general, but of the soldier. After making all the proper arrangements, he should station himself in a suitable spot from which he can observe which troops are exerting themselves and which might be slackening.

• 25:14Jocko Willink?

  When needed, he should be ready to send assistance to a unit in trouble by making use of his reserves. That is the flank and rear guards.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta stay detached. And we're talking the general here. This is the general. This is the CEO, right? This is the president of a company. Not getting so far into the weeds that you just don't see what's happening. And you can't, if you're in the weeds fighting, who's gonna be watching to see that that area is slackening? Who's gonna be able to direct the rear guard to help out? Who's gonna send the reinforcements? The answer's nobody. You're not doing your job.

• 25:58Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one. Even though the general decides against a pitched battle, he should still make preparations for one.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be ready. Somebody asked me actually on Twitter a couple of days ago. Are you worried about another 9/11 in America? And I said,

• 26:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm not worried. I'm prepared.

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  And that's what this is saying. Even you, even though you don't want to do a pitched battle, I'm not gonna meet them. Hey, that's, that's too much of a frontal attack. I'm not gonna do that. You better be ready for one. Yeah. That might be the only choice. You might get attacked. You gotta always be ready. Back to the book. He should make it appear that he plans on one and convey the impression to all his troops that he will definitely attack the enemy. This will cause trouble for the enemy when it comes to their knowledge.

• 27:00Jocko Willink?

  So you, you gotta prepare, be prepared, no slack.

• 27:10Jocko Willink?

  Another one here.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  This is about infantry drill movements. We're going back to training here.

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  The Herald commands silence. Observe orders. Do not worry. Keep your position, follow the standard, do not leave the standard and pursue the enemy.

• 27:34Jocko Willink?

  The troops then advance at a steady pace and in silence. Without anyone even whispering. They should become accustomed to these movements so that as a spoken command, a nod, or some other signal, they march or halt, reduce or divide the depth of the files, march steadily in close order for a good distance over various kinds of terrain, close or tighten their ranks in depth and width, march, engage in mock battle, sometimes using staffs and sometimes naked swords. So this is, this is a really important one. This is, this is, reminds me very much of something that we used to do. So he's saying, you're gonna do a drill, right? And you're not allowed to talk.

• 28:18Jocko Willink?

  You have to be completely silent. And this is something we absolutely used to drill us in the SEAL teams where you're not allowed to talk. And we would actually sometimes take radios away. So, hey, you can't, we turn off, hey, everyone turn off your radios. So you just have to figure this out. And if you run like that all the time, eventually, everybody learns how to, it makes everyone more proactive. Cause you know, you're not gonna hear a command. You know, the boss isn't gonna get on the radio and say flank left. You, you, that's not coming. Cause that's, so you have to learn to look around. You have to learn to sense what's gonna happen. And it makes everybody better at what they're doing. And I'll tell you, you know, I've talked about this before. We didn't, in my task unit, my platoon, we didn't talk on the radio. We didn't, we barely talked on the radio.

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  If, if I came on the radio and said something, it was like, everybody was, oh, the Jock would just talk. Or, you know, Leif would say to me, Jock, I'm moving to building forty-eight. I'd say, do it. They'd go, they wouldn't, he'd take Roger and he'd go, they wouldn't say anything else. And that was because when we were in training, we would do these drills where we wouldn't talk. You're not allowed to talk. You're allowed to make a head nod. You're allowed to give somebody a, a visual signal, but you're not allowed to come on the radio and you're not allowed to talk. And that makes you so good. It, what it does is it makes your verbal, your non-verbal communication skills on point. It was cool when I went to officer candidate school. So at officer candidate school, they got a lot of weird things that they do to you. And I'll give you a couple of examples.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  One of them is you're not allowed to look at your food when you're eating. Okay. So, so you, you have to stare straight ahead. And this doesn't sound like a big deal, cause you think to yourself, well, I'll just look at my food, right? If you look at your food, everybody can see it and the drill instructors come over and say, you know, look at your food. You're not supposed to look at your food. So what you have to do is you have to just look straight ahead. You're looking straight ahead across the table and you're just guessing where your food is pretty much. Stabbing your fork into the tray of food that you have in front of you. And it's, you know, it's a little hard to eat. And then over time. You start to be able to utilize your peripheral vision a little bit more so that you can see it without looking at it.

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  That's one. The other one, I think I've talked about this, you have to scream everything that you say, right? There's, so there's all these little things that they make you do. Go ballistic. Go ballistic at all times, right? I've told that story before, but when, it was pretty cool when, when my drill instructor, gunnery sergeant, Marine Corps, awesome guy, when, when we got done, you know, he was explaining why we did all this stuff. And the one about not looking at your food comes from, it does come from improving your peripheral vision, because the way the officer candidate school was originally set up was for pilots, potential Navy pilots.

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  So guess what? You gotta be able to see your instruments down below you while you're looking around and scanning for enemy aircraft. And so this is what it does. It allows you to improve. Well, this is the same thing. When, when you build that muscle memory of, hey, I'm not gonna talk and I need to look around and I need to be mentally proactive and make sure that I, I'm not gonna hear anything. So as a junior guy, I'm not gonna hear anything. I have to look around. I have to make a decision. I have to absorb and, and figure out what's happening. That is unbelievably good. So anybody that works in an environment, you know, police officers, obviously military, do these silent drills, do them.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  It'll make you that much better. It was funny, I was just relaying the mats at our gym the other day and Andy was there. Big Andy, by the way, just got his black belt, by the way. Yeah, we were relaying the mats and, you know, he's just a, we're just working and we didn't say a word to each other for five hours. We're there, we're just picking up stuff and doing stuff and, you know, he's, he's, you know, an ironworker by trade. And so he's just a guy that, you know, just, he sees me doing something, he's doing, I see him doing something. It's what is non-verbal communication. Just non-verbal communication. Work on it. It's awesome.

• 32:14Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so this next section is, is really kinda where I was heading with all this. This is the, these are maxims, right? General instructions and maxims. And when we do books that are maxims, it makes my job really easy. Because I'm not trying to pull stuff out. It's there. They already pulled it out for you. You know, we did Napoleon's maxims. There's nothing to pull out. Read the maxims. Boom. Sun Tzu Art of War. There's nothing to pull out. Read the maxims. And that's what this rolls into right here. Different, and, and one of the things, I talk about this in jiu-jitsu. I talk about this in, in anything. So, these maxims you're gonna see, these are familiar.

• 32:57Jocko Willink?

  So why would we go through them again? Why do we need to hear them again? I'll tell you the reason why we need to hear them again. Because just like jiu-jitsu, you are gonna see these things from a slightly different angle every single time. Just like in combat, you're gonna enter, you're gonna enter a million rooms as an assaulter on an assault team. You're gonna enter a million different rooms. And there's a basic structure to all of them. But no two rooms are alike. No two rooms are exactly like. And the more that you enter, and the more different angles you see, the better you get at handling them. Just like in jiu-jitsu, when you go against different body types, the better you get at your arm locks. When you do arm lock from the bottom, from the top, from the side, you get better at those arm locks. In the business world, the more

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  deals that you see, and you understand how they unfold, the better you're gonna get. Construction industry, the more walls you build, they're all a little bit different. Little things come out a little bit different. So, the more you see them, the more you hear them, from slightly different angles, the more adept you are utilizing them. That's why I love when I see these maxims. So.

• 34:09Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. General instructions for the commander.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  In carrying out very critical operations, the general ought not set himself apart as though such labor was beneath him. But he should begin the work and toil along with his troops as much as possible. Such behavior will lead the soldier to be more submissive to his officers, even if only out of shame, and he will accomplish more. So, so even though, you know, earlier saying, hey, general, don't, don't get in the weeds. But if there's work to do, do the work. Yeah. Show them you're doing the work.

• 34:50Jocko Willink?

  Next, when certain offenses are common among the soldiers, moderation is called for. Do not judge and punish all indiscriminately. Widespread resentment might draw them all together and discipline would become even worse. It is wiser to punish just a few of the ringleaders. So we, you know, you can talk about the harshness of the Roman legion, but here he's saying, look, dial that back a little bit.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  Dial that back a little bit. If the offenses are common among the soldiers. So when you, this is, you know, this is also a little bit of Leif Bab and uh, it's not what you preach, it's what you tolerate. If you're tolerating it, then you can't just all of a sudden drop the hammer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause you're gonna look inconsistent. If you're not gonna tolerate it, don't tolerate it. But if you do, and it's a common offense, don't all of a sudden fly off the handle. Inconsistent.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  The general's way of life should be plain and simple like that of his soldiers. He should display a fatherly affection toward them. He should give orders in a mild manner. And he should always make sure to give advice and to discuss essential matters with them in person. So this, we heard this from Pat, we hear this from everybody, but Patton said that exactly the same thing, right? You need to do, you need to live like your soldiers. We hear that all the time. Dick Winters said, everybody says this. Don't, don't go up in the, don't go up in the ivory tower. Right. Don't do it, boss man.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  So like the boss who gets the huge corner, everyone has cubicles, but he has a huge

• 36:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Gold plated stuff.

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, with a massage chair in the office.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  Don't disturb me.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  For twelve minutes, I'm running the twelve minute massage chair session.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  His concerns ought to be with their safety, their food and their regular pay. Without these, it is impossible to maintain discipline in an army. By being just in punishing offenders, he should instill fear. At the very first sign of a disciplinary problem, he should take action to end it and not delay dealing with it until it grows or becomes more serious. The general is successful when his men regard him as unshakable and just. He should also see that civilians are left unharmed. Boom. So when you got the problem, when you see the problem, get the problem solved. Don't wait, it's not gonna go away. It's not gonna get, not gonna get better on its own.

• 37:27Jocko Willink?

  Next, he should be temperate in his way of life and vigilant.

• 37:33Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. It's a maxim.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  Next, it is essential to be cautious and take your time in making plans. And once you have come to a decision to carry it out right away without any hesitation. Timidity, after all, is not caution, but the invention of wickedness. When you're gonna go, go.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  Go. Once you make your decision, go.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Is that a default aggressive?

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  That is a default aggressive thing, yes. A healthy mind is not unduly elated by success or overly depressed when things are not going well.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  A lot of these speak for themselves. That's one of them.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:20Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be mental road, maintain, don't get emotional. Not elated, we won.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:27Jocko Willink?

  Not depressed, we lost, no. Maintain. Next, it is safer and more advantageous to overcome the enemy by planning and generalship than by sheer force. In the one case, results are achieved without loss to oneself, while in the other, some price has to be paid.

• 38:50Jocko Willink?

  Next, it is very important to spread rumors among the enemy that you are planning to do one thing and then go do something else. Your plans about major operations should not be known to many, but just a few and those very close to you.

• 39:08Jocko Willink?

  Next, alarming rumors or traps of treachery, whether on the part of the enemy or on our own ought not be neglected or action deferred, but steps should be taken to deal with them and put a shop stop to them before they become realities. You start hearing rumors, smash them.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  That's one thing I see in companies. Companies, this is a problem that businesses have. I mean, it happens in military, but businesses have this problem where they, they let rumors grow. They let messaging get formed by the uninformed. And that's not what you want to do. If you're in charge of a business and something bad is going to happen, explain it to everyone. Don't let the people explain it themselves because the idea that they're going to come up with is going to be the worst case scenario possible that they can imagine. So proactive communications. So people know what is happening. Don't let them define their own messaging and their own rumors. Stop them by giving them the information.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  Next, the enemy should be deceived by false reports of our plans brought to them by deserkers from us. So you got people that you think might leave you? Cool. Give them some bad intel.

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  Courage should be roused in our troops by fabricating report of a victory over the enemy won by our men someplace else. Now, this is a controversial in my mind, right? So what they're saying is, hey, you should make up some stories about how well so and so is doing in another area.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  You gotta think about what you're doing there. And of course, in this day and age, that's hard to do. We have just open communications. We have texting. We have phones. We have all this stuff. So it's you'd be hard pressed to verify that. But one of the things that I thought about when I read that where I disagree with this is in mixed martial arts, for instance, guy loses a round in, you know, round one, the guy goes out and doesn't do a good job.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  Is losing the round, comes back to his corner. What does his corner tell him?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  You're doing great.

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  Keep it going. That's the wrong worst thing you can do. Worst thing you can do is lie.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Why? Cause he'll keep, he'll keep it up.

• 41:35Jocko Willink?

  Doing that. You're gonna keep it up. All right. Yeah. You need to say, look, you're losing. And anytime it's close, you gotta assume that the other guy won. Any round that's even remotely close, you gotta assume the other guy got that round.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:45Jocko Willink?

  So don't do this. Don't say, great round. Keep it going. No, there's not a single MMA fighter that I've ever worked with, that when you tell them, great round, you're winning, steps it up. I'd never, I've never heard it. Never seen it. Never heard it. And if you watch the UFC, because they got those corner cams now.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:04Jocko Willink?

  And I have the internet thing where I can pick who I'm gonna listen to, and I can re-watch it. You can hear what the corners are saying to him.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Oh dang, okay.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  You check it out. Go and look at a fighter, whose corner tells him they're doing a great job and tell me, find me an example of where a guy hears he's doing a great job, and then he steps it up even harder. It doesn't happen. Everybody goes into cruise mode.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  And if they're losing, guess what that cruise mode, that gets them destroyed.

• 42:28Jocko Willink?

  So be careful with that one. Maurice gotta disagree with you on that one.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, news about reverses suffered by us should be kept secret and reports stating just the opposite should be circulated about. Okay, so now we're talking about controlling, controlling the messaging, but we're talking about lying. And in this day and age, it doesn't work. It does not gonna work for you. You can't say, don't worry about. It was like, remember Baghdad Bob, when we went into Baghdad? And he, there's American tanks, M1 Abrams rolling in, crushing. And he's like, we've got the Americans on the run. Yeah, we're running down your front door. So this is not, this isn't gonna work. Right? What you need to do is if reverses happen, you need to come out, you need to own them, you need to explain what happened, and you need to get ahead of them. And don't let the rumor mill

• 43:16Jocko Willink?

  turn into something worse than it is. You might be able to mitigate it. Don't lie about it. Not gonna get you anywhere.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  Next, defeated troops should not be allowed to fall into despair, but they should be dealt with by stirring up hope by various other means. Common sense.

• 43:36Jocko Willink?

  Next, during combat, one has to overlook offenses committed by the soldiers, but afterward, get rid of men guilty of sedition. Which is like someone that's gonna rebel against you.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is very, this is questionable, right? If you, during combat, if you start overlooking offenses, guess what you're gonna end up with? My, Meili massacre, that's what you're gonna end up with. No, stop them. Disagree, Maurice, sorry.

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  When you have a situation like that happening, you need to stop it. Need to put an end to it. Now,

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  that being said, are you gonna hound on every little thing that happens? No, right? Maybe you're gonna give a little bit of slack with

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  something that's pretty meaningless, right? Maybe give a little bit of slack. At the same time, you can't just, you gotta give you guys some room. That's what I'm saying. You gotta give you guys some room. You gotta hold the line, absolutely. You gotta hold the line, but you can't freak out.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  Because you got bigger, you should definitely have bigger things to worry about. Than this little item, right? Let's just, hey, get that tightened up.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:54Jocko Willink?

  Let's move on. Let's not focus on it. I'm not gonna fire you because you made a mistake.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  Our own dead should be buried secretly at night, but the enemies should be left out there as a means of making them lose courage. Good psychological warfare.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  Next, when a delegation comes from the enemy, inquire about the leaders of the group, and on their arrival, treat them very friendly, so their own people will come to suspect them. There's a lot of, there's a lot of little crafty little psychological warfare that they do. And that's one of them. Act like you know this enemy. Make everyone, make the enemy look at him like, how's this, why's, why's Jocko being so nice to Echo right here? They're acting like they're old friends. They're gonna get suspicious of you. That's what I'm trying to do. Call some divide.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Plant the seed.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Acts of cowardice on the part of our soldiers should be kept quiet and not publicly condemned, since this may make them even worse. Again, we're talking about a communication thing, and you're not gonna be able to, you're not gonna be able to keep that stuff under wraps. People are gonna know. So get ahead of it.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  Next, a way of arousing discord and suspicion among the enemy is to refrain from burning or plundering the estates of certain prominent men on their side and of them alone. So going, like I said, go into the village, burn everyone's house except Echo's. And you're like the prominent guy, and they go, Echo, what's up? How come you didn't burn your house? No, no, no, I'm not friends with them. Oh, really?

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Oh dang yeah.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, really? We're gonna come back and we're gonna kill you.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, like the cops, right? They do that where they'll apprehend some guy in the cartel, I don't know, whatever, the drug gang. And then they'll be like, okay, bye. Like, oh, they wait, you got arrested, nothing happened to you? They'll be like, oh, no, it's all good. They'll be like, hmm, okay.

• 46:56Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. That's exactly it.

• 47:00Jocko Willink?

  Next, one way of getting a besieged city to submit is by sending letters tied to arrows, promising freedom and immunity. This can also be done by releasing prisoners. Cool. Next, great caution must be observed in pursuing the enemy over ground suited for ambushes. A good general will turn back at the right time, so he can come back later to attack more effectively.

• 47:24Jocko Willink?

  That's why I'm not stopping my patrol to go back and attack an ambush that we just got through. It's their ground, they have it. They're waiting for us.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Kind of impromptu.

• 47:33Jocko Willink?

  They have the advantage. They have it. They've been waiting there. Every art of war, every maximum war will tell you, you wanna have the upper hand, you wanna pick the battlefield. They picked it.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Don't get into a scrap with them right there.

• 47:48Jocko Willink?

  Next, do not be deceived by humane acts of the enemy or by their pretending to retreat.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Next, cowardly officers are recognized by their hesitation and pallor during combat. They should be assigned to auxiliary forces. Notice that he is using them, right? Just because someone's a coward, he's still got work for him. Like you go and run the logistics, you know? That's okay, because I need bodies, I need people.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  When a populous city is taken, it is important to leave the gates open. So that the inhabitants may escape and not be driven to utter desperation. The same holds when an enemy's fortified camp is taken. So, we want to give people an out. So that they don't fight to the death, and this is very common with the ego. You don't, you don't, I don't trap you and prove you wrong in the room. Right? I don't have a big meeting, I don't go, Echo, here's the four reasons why you're completely wrong and they're indisputable. No, I give you a little out. I say, Echo, you know, I've found these things and I think this might be a better way to do it. And by the way, you know, this also happens and this other thing.

• 49:02Jocko Willink?

  So, maybe we could adjust your plan a little bit and do it here. Now, if you have any sense whatsoever, you see all four of those reasons. And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go ahead and do that, Jocko. That's a good call. And I say, no problem, boss. And we're good. But if I come in there and start making you look like a jackass, you're totally wrong. Your system doesn't work. You're gonna dig in on that. Now we got issues, now you're fighting to the death. I'm going backwards.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  Next, even in friendly territory, a fortified camp should be set up. A general should never have to say, "I did not expect it."

• 49:44Jocko Willink?

  Even in friendly territory, be ready. For a safe retreat, build a fire in one place and go off quietly to another. The enemy will head to the fire. Deception. Next, letters ought to be sent out to deserters from our side who have joined the enemy in such a way that the letters will fall into the enemy's hands. These letters should remind the deserters of the prearranged time for their treachery, so that the enemy will become suspicious of them and they'll have to flee. That's a crafty little move. Crafty little move. Oh, Echo, you deserted us and hey, we'll meet you at this night so you can give us the information you told us you were gonna give us. They hang you. Traitor.

• 50:28Jocko Willink?

  Next. When it comes to dangerous or surprise operations, cowards could be weeded out if all the men who are sick or whose horses are too weak are ordered to fall out. The cowards will then claim to be sick and so they can be separated from the others. They can be assigned to guard fortresses or some other duty involving little danger. That's a good tactic. You think about that back in the day. Hey, guys, if anyone's not feeling good, fall out over here because we, you know, you're not 100% so we don't want to bring you in this operation. The cowards go, hey, I'm a little bit sick, feel a little under the weather. Okay, cool. You go guard the rear.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Is that because like, in a way, they're not 100% either, right?

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're not 100% because they're cowards. And you're giving them an out.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  Because they're not, they might not say anything, but then at the moment of truth, they're not there to back you up.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:16Jocko Willink?

  So you give them a little out. Hey, if you're not feeling good, go over here in this line.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool. Yeah, you're over there, coward.

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  But I'm still gonna utilize you.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Jocko Willink?

  Next, we should not furnish arms to those who promised to fight on our side because their real intentions are not clear. This is something America as a nation should get very familiar with. We should not furnish arms to those who promised to fight on our side because their real intentions are not clear. We give away arms in a ridiculous manner. Ridiculous manner. And we shouldn't because the real intentions are not clear.

• 51:57Jocko Willink?

  Next, after a victory, we must not become careless, but be on our guard all the more against surprise attacks by the vanquished.

• 52:08Jocko Willink?

  Just because you won doesn't mean, and this is, you know Jeff Higgs, right?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:12Jocko Willink?

  This is something Higgs taught me like years ago. I'm talking blue belt in jujitsu. If you, Higgs,

• 52:22Jocko Willink?

  jujitsu, he's a SEAL. He, he got out of the SEAL teams. He got totally into jujitsu. And the, one of the original guys I trained with, with Master Chief Steve Bailey back in the day. So anyways, we were rolling one day and we were talking and he said, if you tap somebody, you gotta go harder because they're gonna go hard.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:46Jocko Willink?

  So if you, you know, and I'm, I mean, someone that you battle with, right? Someone that you battle with and all of a sudden you get them, better step up your game because they're gonna go harder.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:54Jocko Willink?

  Same thing right here. Yeah, you gotta watch yourself.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, if you're running the, the mile, you know, like in track, you're running the mile, you pull way out ahead, right? And you're like, oh, I'm, you know, this last lap, whatever. You know, I'm just gonna kinda, yeah, right? You gotta step it up because that guy that you've been beating, vanquished, whatever.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  You know, he's coming.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  He's coming. Next, envoys from the enemy must not be treated disrespectfully, even when our forces are much stronger.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Next, an army, no matter how strong, besieging a city must never leave its own camp unguarded, nor should it think that fortifications are sufficient to assure its safety. But it should keep sending out patrols. Don't ever let your guard down. Saying this over and over again. Next, suspected defectors should be told the opposite of what we intend to do so that we may use them to deceive the enemy and treachery must be guarded against even during periods of truce or temporary peace.

• 53:58Jocko Willink?

  Next, by no means should we believe reports that come from deserters or defectors alone, but their reports should be checked against statements made by prisoners taken in raids. And in this way, the truth may be discerned. So you gotta check with all the different sources. And this is something that the intelligence community does extremely well, which is they take all these different little chunks of information and they assemble it together into a picture. You know, we've seen those pictures where it's just like a bunch of dots when you look at it up close, but then when you step back, it's something real.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  That's why these intelligence communities do. They take all those little dots. It seems like a meaningless dot, just a meaningless little dot, but they're going to put it on that broad picture and it's going to fill in one little piece of information that they need. You put all that stuff together and all of a sudden they know who you are. They know where to attack.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that kind of makes sense there where it's like some deserter or somebody who basically doesn't have credibility is what it is. So they'll be like, hey, he's not necessarily lying, but he could be so he becomes real circumstantial. You know, and then like how you're saying, you put all the dots together and for some reason this dot, it's not fitting. It's not painting a picture, but then you know, okay, he's wishy washy anyway. So all I see he's lying right now.

• 55:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, lying about that piece, but maybe he didn't lie about another piece.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what I mean? That makes sense.

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  Next, in no way should a sworn agreement made with the enemy be broken. So if you, you need to hold, hold, hold your word, even with the enemy, hold your word.

• 55:35Jocko Willink?

  Next, after God, we should place our hopes of safety in our weapons, not in our fortifications alone. Don't just count on the defense.

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  Next, orders should be given to the soldiers that they should be ready to march out on a holiday in the rain, day or night. For this reason, they should not be told the time or day beforehand, so they may always be prepared.

• 56:02Jocko Willink?

  This is, this reminded me of when my last deployment to Iraq. And you're winding down. And I told my guys, I said, hey, I'm not going to tell you guys when we're going to stop operations. We're just going to stop because I didn't want anybody going out thinking this is the last operation.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  Just play it safe.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:19Jocko Willink?

  I said, hey, guys, when we're done, you know, but just keep going.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  Guys were like, Roger that. We'll keep going. And then one day we got done.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:29Jocko Willink?

  But to keep the mentality of, you know, don't think about this is going to be the last operation.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  You don't want them cruising through the finish line and it's not the finish line.

• 56:36Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 56:39Jocko Willink?

  Next, risks should be taken without necessity or real hope of gain. Sorry. Risks should not be taken without necessity or real hope of gain. To do so is the same as fishing with gold as bait.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Next, inhabitants of the area who seek refuge should not be received indiscriminately. Often enough, they've been sent by the enemy deceitfully to plot against their hosts. This is something we ran into a lot in Ramadi where people are acting normal and they knew our rules of engagement. And so they knew like before they didn't have a gun, they, we weren't going to shoot them.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:24Jocko Willink?

  And so they would do things, they'd probe and they'd see how close they could get and see where we were. So just because these people are coming with their hands up, doesn't mean they're innocent.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, they might not be guilty.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:35Jocko Willink?

  They might not be innocent either.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:37Jocko Willink?

  Next, we should also be on our guard against deserters who approach a besieged city. Often enough, they are sent by the enemy to set fires so that while the defenders are busy putting them out, the enemy may attack them. Just be cautious. Troops defeated in open battle should not be pampered or even if it seems like a good idea, take refuge in a fortified camp or some other strong place. But while their fear is still fresh, they should attack again.

• 58:06Jocko Willink?

  By not indulging them may, they may with greater assurance renew the fighting. So don't take care of them. You can't just say, oh, we beat you. So come on in the camp and relax. No, not happening. Next, if the general thinks he's ready to meet the enemy in battle, he should get set to carry on the fighting in the enemy's country instead of his own. Men waging war in a foreign land become more aggressive. They will also feel that the war in which they are engaged is not only being fought on behalf of their country, but also their own personal safety. This is not necessarily the case if the war is fought in their own land, in which the existence of fortresses eliminates the risks to men,

• 58:48Jocko Willink?

  since in case of flight, they may easily take refuge in them. Those are a little bit different than what we might deal with today. Because today, we deploy to some country and fight, that's not your homeland. So you're saying, ah, you know what? This is this, you know, I, I, I don't have to defend this. And can you imagine if America got invaded, how hard the Americans would fight? Yeah. You, no one could ever pull it off. Yeah. It would be too hard. Yeah. Because the, once the Americans say, oh, you think you're going to take my country? Wouldn't happen. Anything, take my anything. Not happening. Yeah, not happening. Yep. Yeah, go try and take someone's parking space in America. Here, you're, they're ready to kill you. I know. So you think you're going to take land from us? Not happening. Not going to happen.

• 59:32Jocko Willink?

  So it's a little bit different, but the mentality of being aggressive in a, in the, what, what, I think what the mentality is talking about is knowing that you can retreat, knowing that you can go back to your fortress. So that means, you know, in this day and age, or I'm sorry, in that era, they knew they couldn't, they didn't have any, all they could do was fight. They had to win. Right. You know what? This is a great comparison is in the, in the old school Navy. You had no choice. You have no choice on a naval vessel. You have no choice but to fight. You have no choice because if your ship gets sunk, you're dead. In the, on the ground, you can run away, you can hide, you can retreat, you can fall back. Where do you fall back to on a ship that's being attacked?

• 1:00:15Jocko Willink?

  You don't. You go in the ocean and you die. So that's one of the kind of core things that's old school Navy. You cannot retreat. You cannot give up. You can't. There's nowhere to surrender. You can't surrender. It's if you surrender, you die. If you don't fight with everything you got, you die. So you have no choice but to fight until you're dead. That's kind of the mentality of the old school Navy. Nowhere to run to. You can't, can't retreat, can't fall back. You're there.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  So that little section was called the, the general instructions for the commander. And now we get into the straight up maxims.

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  First one, the man who spends more sleepless nights with his army and who works harder in drilling his troops runs the fewest risks in fighting the foe.

• 1:01:14Jocko Willink?

  Self-evident.

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  Reminds me of Major Lee in colder than hell, who remember they're, they're like patrolling to combat and he's got the guys doing drills. He's getting after it.

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  Next, never lead soldiers into combat before they, before having made sufficient trial of their courage. So why we train hard.

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  Next, it is well to hurt the enemy by deceit, by raids, or by hunger, and never be enticed into a pitched battle, which is demonstration more of luck than of bravery. So he's saying a pitched battle is like, there's luck, there's luck. Yeah. What's a pitch, pitch battle? Face to face.

• 1:02:00Jocko Willink?

  Next, only those battle plans are successful, which the enemy does not suspect before we put them into action.

• 1:02:10Jocko Willink?

  Next, deception is often helpful in warfare. An enemy soldier who deserts us, apart from some plot, is of the greatest advantage. For the enemy is hurt by deserters more than if the same man were killed in action.

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Next, he who does not carefully compare his own forces with those of the enemy will come to a disastrous end.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  Here's a good one for you. Courage and discipline are able to accomplish more than a large number of warriors.

• 1:02:46Jocko Willink?

  Often enough, the lay of the land has been helpful in making the weaker force come out on top. Terrain. For those of you in the military, terrain. Learn how to read terrain, learn how to use terrain, learn how to figure out the high ground, learn out where the dead spaces are, learn where the ravines are that puts you in a better firing position.

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Next, nature produces but a few brave men. Whereas care and training make efficient soldiers. Soldiers who are kept working improve in courage. I'm gonna say that again. Soldiers who are kept working improve in courage. While too much leisure makes them weak and lazy.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  Next, things which are unexpected or sudden frighten the enemy. But they pay little attention to things to which they are accustomed. You're used to that.

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  After gaining a victory, a general who pursues the enemy with a scattered and disorganized army gives away his victory to his foe.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  And here's a simple one. The cause of war must be just.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Next, it does not help to assemble the whole army in council or to keep sending for men when they are off duty. These things only cause discord in the army. I put that one in there because this applies to business a lot where all of a sudden you're calling that person all the weekend nights.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Staff meeting.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Meeting, having another meeting, I need to talk to everyone. Okay.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  On their off day.

• 1:04:27Jocko Willink?

  Burn them out. Be careful with that.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  Next, the soldiers must always be doing something even if no enemy is bothering us. Habitual idleness spells trouble for an army. So those two are kind of contradictory. They don't be calling people all the time, but keep them busy. We got to figure out how we separate in the business world, how do you separate work? From life.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  And as the boss, you got to make that distinction.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It kind of seems like that makes sense. I mean, consider like exercise or something. Like you gotta have the recovery period.

• 1:05:04Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  But you can't be just cruising skipping days all the time, you know? So it's like that. What do you, what do you call it in the, uh, in the deal?

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Dichotomy. There's a dichotomy in there. Yes. Nicely done.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Next, for what should be done, seek the advice of many. For what you will actually do, take counsel with only a few trustworthy people. Then off by yourself alone, decide on the best and most helpful plan to follow and stick to it.

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  Hey, everyone tell me what's going on. Give me your ideas. Yeah. Okay. Great. A little bit smaller group. Okay, guys, there's the input we got. What do you think? And then guess what? The commander's got to make a decision.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:51Jocko Willink?

  You can weigh all those different inputs, but the commander's got to make a decision.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Jocko Willink?

  And when you make the decision, you gotta own it.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, one thing that's interesting and I don't mean to

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  go on too much of a tangent here.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  But I'll make a decision.

• 1:06:08Jocko Willink?

  And execute with aggression, but my mind is not closed. And if I go say, we're gonna do X and we start executing X and X is not looking good. I'll say, stop executing X. I was wrong. Here's what we're gonna do. So just because you're being decisive, doesn't mean that you're being stupid. Just because you're being decisive, doesn't mean you're not, you're, you're losing your plasticity.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:34Jocko Willink?

  We don't lose our plasticity, even when we make a hard decision. Even when I say, this is what we're gonna do, my mind is still open. And again, a lot of times I will try and break as a leader, I will try and break big decisions into smaller incremental decisions that allow me to change course during the execution. And you know, for, for, and I've told, I've said this, something like this before, but if we got a bad guy target and we think the bad guy's gonna be there, the first thing I'm gonna tell, do, do, tell the guys to start planning. So they're gonna start planning. Then I might put them, okay, guys, we're gonna, we're gonna go and put you guys in the staging area. Well, they execute, we're executing, but we are not executing, right? All you're doing is going to a staging area. Then I might even put a reconnaissance element out to watch the target.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  We're executing, but we're not executing. I could still say, okay, stop, everyone come back home. We don't think he's there. We don't think it's a good mission. We think it's a trap, whatever. So I gave, I committed, I made a decision, we're gonna hit this target. But I made that decision incrementally. I didn't just say, we're gonna hit it and now no matter what happens. So a lot of times as a leader, I look at the, the big decision, okay, yeah, it's a big decision. And I'm gonna be decisive on it, but I'm gonna make incremental progress towards that decision. That way I can be adaptable as I move towards that execution. A very important lesson to learn, very important lesson to learn. I never just jump off the cliff.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Right. It's like you're creating a point of no return, you know, unnecessarily or something.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a. Last point of cover and concealment is an actual term that we use. Last point of coverage. So that means there's a target. And once you cross this line, now you actually do have to go.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:14Jocko Willink?

  Now you're out in the open. They can see you.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  So that's the point, but that point should come so far down the road that you can execute the target. You can execute the target. You can execute the target, but you still haven't actually executed until you've gone past that last point of cover and concealment. Once you're there, once you go past the last point of covering concealment, you're done. You have to go. But that should be very late in the game and it's the same thing in the business world. Oh, we wanna, we wanna open up into this new market. Okay, let's do a reconnaissance that market. You're executing.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  But you might do reconnaissance to the market and say, you know what? It's not what we thought it was gonna be. Stop. Okay, let's get a building. So now you're gonna lease. We're not gonna buy. You're gonna go in there and buy a building because we don't wanna own that thing yet. We don't know the terrain well enough. We're gonna lease a building. Guess what we're doing? We're doing an eight-year lease? No, no, no. We're doing a two-year lease. We're just gonna slowly execute incrementally because we might get in there and say, ah, it's not looking good. So think about how you can break these major decisions down into smaller incremental decisions that give you the adaptability.

• 1:09:23Jocko Willink?

  Next. If an enemy spy is captured while observing our forces, then it may well, it may be well to release him unharmed if all our forces are strong and in good shape. The enemy will absolutely be dismayed by such reports. On the other hand, if our forces are weak, the spy should be treated roughly, forced to divulge, divulge enemy secrets. And finally, either be put to death or sent off elsewhere under guard. Obviously, we don't put our prisoners to death anymore, but you know what's interesting about this? In, in the business world, and I've worked with all kinds of different companies. And the reason I keep talking about this spy stuff and the captured and is because every industry,

• 1:10:05Jocko Willink?

  every industry out there, they are constantly competing for people.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  And whether it's this uh, technology companies, whether it's financial companies, they're always trying to recruit each other and to try to get this guy to leave and they're trying to pull this person over. Every different, a lot of times I work with companies, they don't realize that all of the companies are like this. There's only, you know, they say, well, you know, the thing is we get, we, we, people are trying to recruit our people all the time. Yes, it happens in every industry. Every industry has got people trying to recruit their people. And that's why I'm talking about this stuff because if you think about it, if you know someone's gonna go to another company, let's give them some bad intelligence before they leave. You know, let's say that we're thinking, we're, we're, we're not gonna go into that market. Let them know that.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  You are going into that market by the way.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Full speed.

• 1:10:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, full speed, yeah. So that's why I'm saying this. Again, you know, you get to this point where,

• 1:11:04Jocko Willink?

  you know, as a, as a upstanding human being, let's be straight up with people. But I'm assuming now that someone has maybe done you wrong. You know, they, they're trying to take clients, they're trying to take business away from your business. Because now we're getting into a little bit of a, we're in a little, some hostilities are brewing up. So some psychological warfare.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Game within the game.

• 1:11:27Jocko Willink?

  There's a game within the game.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  And there's a game within the game. And again, you have to maintain your integrity as a, as a human. And then that's, that is definitely for me, the, the, the absolute primary thing, right, is to maintain your integrity. They're not maintaining your integrity with, with you, we, maybe they're gonna get some misinformation on the way out the door. Sorry, that's the way it works.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like.

• 1:11:57Jocko Willink?

  The only, the only problem, you know, I'm, I'll, I'll kind of draw back on that a little bit and I'll tell you why.

• 1:12:04Jocko Willink?

  One of the best things about when someone leaves a company, one of the best things you can do is treat them good as they leave.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  Really, because that, because when they show up at that new company, that made all these promises to them, that are not true.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and they're looking back and going, man, you know, Jocko was just honest with me. And he told me he wanted me to stay and he told me that, you know, we're going to grow. And he told me he didn't have an opportunity right now, but he would find one in the future. He believes me.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Jocko Willink?

  So I'm going to actually retract my statement about using these kind of, you know, putting your integrity at risk. It's better to maintain your integrity and, and it might not be better instantly, but in the long run, you're going to be better off.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Even with like a spy situation. So, I mean, kind of consider, I don't know if you were to draw the analogy of a spy, like let's say a temp came in your company and he's really a spy because he's a temp somewhere else. I don't know, whatever. And you find out or you get, you know, like information, whatever, that, that leads you to believe, oh, that guy's a spy. Right. And then you start essentially lying to him about projects or I don't know, whatever, goals.

• 1:13:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'd probably just get rid of him.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Jocko Willink?

  I'd probably just say.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  But still treat them nice kind.

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, hey, listen, I don't think you're here for the best reasons.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Jocko Willink?

  And in fact, I, I think you came from this organization and I'm going to let you go. If you ever want to come back here in earnest.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  You know what? I think you got a lot of potential. And I think, I think, hold on, I think that the fact that they did this to you, it shows that they don't really respect you.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Jocko Willink?

  And, but if you want to come to a place where you will be respected and where we work with integrity,

• 1:13:40Jocko Willink?

  this is the place for you. Let me know if that ever happens, but for now, because the way this is shaking out, I can't, I can't have you here because you know what I'm trying to do? I'm trying to protect my team. I'm trying to protect what we're doing here. And you know what we're doing? We're doing something positive and you're, what you're bringing right now, it shows you the weakness of the people that you've been working with on the other side. It shows you that they're weak. They're trying to do these things to us. It's not going to affect us, by the way. We are going to win. Why are we going to win? Because we are staying on the path. See now, you approach it like that, you're gonna win all day long. So let's just retract. You know, that's why, that's why people don't understand, man, integrity is so important. And the minute you start giving up, even under these adverse conditions, when you give up your integrity,

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  in the long run, you're gonna hurt yourself. And I kinda got drawn into it, right? Even myself, I'm like, oh yeah, spies and all this. No, be straight up.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Don't put them to death. Don't, don't put them to death.

• 1:14:32Jocko Willink?

  No, you're not allowed to do that.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, dang, that's actually, that's way more advanced than kinda what I was gonna ask you. So what if like,

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  you expose them, you know? You expose the company or the person, like, oh, hey, everyone, I don't know, you know, now we have, you know.

• 1:14:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I think it'd be, I would do it in an appropriate way. You know, I wouldn't be trying to set them up and make them look up and say, hey, listen, guys, we found out that Bill, he's actually, he's actually still getting paid by X company over there. And Bill, we, we're gonna have to let you go. Appreciate you coming over, but you know, we here are a team. We stick together. You're not part of the team, obviously. So we can't have you here. If you ever decide that the weak team you came from is not for you and you wanna get on board with the winning team, let me know.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's advanced to kinda let them know that like, hey, I still like you and everything kinda thing. You know, the opposite of burning a bridge.

• 1:15:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Like you're kinda building it.

• 1:15:39Jocko Willink?

  And there is nothing better. A lot of times, companies that we work with, somebody will leave. And it'll be under those weird circumstances, right? They'll get a good offer, you know, and again, all companies do this. They say, I'll give you a signing bonus, right? Give you a signing bonus to come over. Okay. And the signing bonus, that looks, that's a way to get somebody over and they say, don't worry, we'll give you this and we'll give you a corner office and we'll give you this, we'll give you helpers and you know, we'll give you this title, right? Oh, yeah, the title. They lure them in with all those things. But all those are recruiters. They're not telling the truth about stuff. Sometimes, but worst, the best recruiters tell everything straight up. Right? The best recruiters are like, oh, you're you're doing this? Yeah, they're really good at that. Your company you're at Echo, they're really good with that.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  You're right. Here's where their weaknesses are. Here's where we beat them. Your decision. It's it's honest and it sets your expectations, right? So when you show up, you you're not thinking, well, Jocko, you said that this was the best at at X. Now, I didn't say that. So we're the best at Y. X we're working on. Yeah. Right? That's what you want to do. It's just what I'm talking about is integrity. That's what I'm talking about. And you got to maintain it. Best thing to do.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dang.

• 1:16:53Jocko Willink?

  Easy to win in those scenarios.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Is that one of those take the high road or?

• 1:16:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, take the high, take the high ground or the or the high ground is going to take you. Absolutely. All right. Back to the book. If the soldiers show signs of cowardice, various skills should be used to restore their courage. Next, take your time in planning. But when you have made decision, be fast in putting it into action. In war, opportunity is fleeting. And cannot be put off at all. Opportunity is fleeting. I was not just talking about war. That's talking about business. That's talking about life. Your opportunities in life are fleeting. What are you doing with them?

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing with the opportunities you have in front of you right now? Are you capitalizing on them? Are you going after them? Because they're fleeting. They're not going to be there. They might be there tomorrow. They might be. In a week, where are they? In a month, where are they? They're gone.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:17:57Jocko Willink?

  Opportunities are fleeting. So get after them. Next. Let the army see that you are not unduly elated over successes nor utterly cast down by failures. We already covered that. Next. It is not the general whose words are frightening, but the one who gets things done, who is feared by the enemy.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  That's a big one right there.

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Be the person that makes things happen.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Be the person that makes things happen. That's you, you know, in the military, my guys, I was in, you know, the SEAL platoon or SEAL task unit, or when I was running training, I had guys, my boys, my people, and they made things happen. If I said something to them, it was gonna happen. It was gonna happen. There was no, I didn't barely, I didn't give it any direction. I'd say, hey, we need this. They'd take, got it. Done. Done. That's the kind of person you want to be. Not the person that comes back, you know, a week later and says, well, you know, we tried to make some progress here, but I really ran into a brick wall with so and so. No.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Jocko Willink?

  My guys didn't hit brick walls. And if they hit them, they hit them with sledgehammers and busted through them.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Yep. So Jade would.

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Jade Charles, Echo Charles's brother.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Yep. So he'd be like, this happened more than once is why I'm saying, saying he would do this, but maybe twice. Anyway, he'd say, hey, I know you're going to the store. Go buy me some wine while you're there. And he's like, hey, it's this kind, whatever kind wine. So I'm like, all right, I'll do that for you. You know, favorite kind, no problem. I go in the wine section, aisle, whatever. And he's like, hey, it's this. And there's, you know, there's wine, there's white, red, red rank, Bordeaux, Cabernet.

• 1:19:54Jocko Willink?

  A bunch of different wine, yep.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's the brand. So basically it's a wall. The whole thing is all wines. It's not the kind where there's sugar, oil, this all wine, different kind. And he's like, I want this kind. I'm looking at this thing, bro, I was here for tomatoes. That's it. I don't want to spend one hour looking for wine. So you kind of come to like this decision you gotta make, you know? I could easily just grab my tomatoes, go home and be like, bro, you know what you sent? You sent me on a treasure hunt for your wine. I could say that. It'd be justifiable, really.

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  So you grab a bottle?

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  No, yeah, no. As you'd say, hold the line. He asked for wine. I said I would get wine. I'm gonna get wine and I'm not gonna say anything about it. That's what I did. Found it. Give it to him. And I know where it is now.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Right? Cause justifiably, I could have said, bro, hey, I'll do it next time. Or show me, next time we're there, show me where it is. You know, but bro, I didn't have that kind of time, whatever, you know?

• 1:20:49Jocko Willink?

  You got the mission done.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, do. Uh, wha- wha- wha- what do the guys say? They say, "Don't talk about it, be about it." Yeah, don't talk about it, be about it.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Alright, next.

• 1:21:02Jocko Willink?

  Plan what you have to do at night and carry out your decision during the day. One cannot plan and act at the same time.

• 1:21:14Jocko Willink?

  Before you go to bed at night, make your list of what gots to get done.

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general who is overly harsh with his subordinates and the one who is too indulgent are both unfit for command. Fear leads to great hatred and giving in too much results in being despised.

• 1:21:38Jocko Willink?

  It is best to take the middle course.

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  Means balance. Got a balance. So this is the dichotomy of leadership. Don't want to be overly harsh, don't want to be too indulgent. I like the fact that he says giving too much results in being despised.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  And it's interesting, you got, I've, I've heard that. Like i- in the SEAL teams.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Wait, that expression?

• 1:22:00Jocko Willink?

  No, I should say I've seen that idea. Where you get a guy, of course, you get a guy, you get a platoon leader that's really overbearing and, and no one likes him.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Jocko Willink?

  And it's not a good unit. But you get the guy that just gives everything, he's not liked either. He's not respected.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  That's the problem. And he might be everyone's buddy.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't make anything happen, doesn't have a good unit.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Taken advantage of, maybe, I don't know.

• 1:22:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, for sure. Next, after agreeing upon a treaty or truce with the enemy, the commander should make sure that his camp is guarded more strongly and more closely. I bet you Maurice, the way he writes these things, they must have gotten re-attacked on multiple occasions because he is paranoid. If the enemy chooses to break the agreement, they will only gain a reputation for faithlessness and disfavor of God.

• 1:22:53Jocko Willink?

  While we shall remain in safety and be true to our word, a general should not have to say, "I did not expect it."

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  Next, for smaller forces, we should select a place with a narrow front, whose width corresponds to the size of our army. The superior numbers of the enemy are useless in such a place since there is no room for them. This is classic Battle Thermopylae. Pick a place that's really narrow so all those Persians can't attack you at the same time.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  It is a good idea to maneuver so that the sun, wind, and dust are behind our men and in the face of the enemy. By so obscuring his vision and making his breathing difficult, we should quickly be victorious.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Think about those environmentals.

• 1:23:45Jocko Willink?

  Next, we should put, we should line up our troops for battle before the enemy gets ready. This puts us in a position to do what we wish and barely allows the enemy time to arm. So be ahead, be early, get up early.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Be first.

• 1:23:58Jocko Willink?

  Be first.

• 1:24:00Jocko Willink?

  If we are all set for the charge, then we can attack the enemy in safety with our men full of confidence and the enemy very worried.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  Next, if the enemy is put to flight, our soldiers must be restrained from plundering. Otherwise, they are scattered doing, while they are scattered doing this, the enemy might reform and attack them. And once again, I like Maurice's paranoia.

• 1:24:28Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general is at fault if most of the army is destroyed in a single battle.

• 1:24:36Jocko Willink?

  We wrote a book called Extreme Ownership, that's what it's about.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  Own it.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Next, an army which shouts out its war cries good and loud can strike terror into the enemy.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Is that like the rugby, the New Zealand, the All Blacks, you know, they're, yeah, they're doing that, yeah.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  The Haka's awesome.

• 1:24:59Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever seen there's a, there's a, they do the Haka and like memorial services?

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Jocko Willink?

  That is, that is very moving.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:07Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't get much more moving than that.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, yeah, they get up. Even the football teams in Hawaii do that too. Some, some of them, they'll do that before the game. It's, it's kinda, I think in Hawaii, they're used, kinda used to it, so it's might not have the effect. But what if like you've never seen it before, you're not expecting, and they do that, you're like, bro, these guys are kinda like, they're ready, they're nuts, you know? Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:25:27Jocko Willink?

  Next, our commander ought to adapt his stratagems to the disposition of the enemy general. If the latter is inclined to rashnish, he might be enticed to premature and reckless action.

• 1:25:44Jocko Willink?

  If he is on the timid side, he may be struck down by continual surprise raids. So you're making adaption, like, oh, I know you got a bad temper? Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring it out.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Jocko Willink?

  Or you're, you're passive? Cool, I'm gonna get aggressive on you.

• 1:26:02Jocko Willink?

  The general should be impartial in dealing with his own men with allied and with allied forces. He should be a just judge for both. When he gives presents to the allies, he should make a regular increase in the gratuities for his own soldiers. So he's talking about they would adopt these other armies, and he's seen, treat them fairly, treat them justly. You know where you see this a lot is when, uh, when we get acquisitions in the business world?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:27Jocko Willink?

  So one company takes over another company? And a good leader is gonna treat people fairly, a bad leader's gonna be taking care of the guys that he's always been with.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  His boys, yeah.

• 1:26:38Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful of that.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  In wartime, the general should do more than his share of the work and take less than his share of the gain.

• 1:26:53Jocko Willink?

  This will enhance his reputation and secure for him the goodwill of all. Do more than your share of war can take less of the share of the gain.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Aware of the uncertainties of war, the general ought to be ready, even after victory, to listen to the proposals of the enemy for peace on advantageous terms. So gotta keep an open mind.

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  The best general is not the man of noble family, but the man who can take pride in his own deeds.

• 1:27:27Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general must correctly manage not only matters of immediate concern, but must also take thought for the future. Common sense, but how often do we see people not doing that? Not thinking about the future, only being concerned with what's happening right now?

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  Next, the best leader is one who does not willingly engage in a hazardous and highly uncertain battle, and refrains from emulating those who carry out operations recklessly and are admired for their brilliant success. But one who, while keeping the enemy on the move, remains secure and always in circumstances of his own choosing.

• 1:28:19Jocko Willink?

  We dictate the situation. We dictate the situation.

• 1:28:28Jocko Willink?

  A greedy general can be the ruin of his own people and an object of contempt to the enemy.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  A general who loves luxury can destroy the whole army.

• 1:28:48Jocko Willink?

  Next, the commander is the one who can instill courage at the right time and can hold back the headlong flight of frightened soldiers.

• 1:28:59Jocko Willink?

  Next, a general who desires peace must be prepared for war. For the barbarians become very nervous when they face an adversary all set to fight. That is why my, that is why my foreign policy is one word: strength. Because the barbarians get nervous when they know you're ready to fight.

• 1:29:30Jocko Willink?

  Mistakes made in ordinary affairs can generally be remedied in a short while. But errors made in war cause lasting harm. This is why, this is why combat is like life, but amplified and intensified.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Next, those whose performance is consistently poor should not be entrusted even with just ordinary responsibilities.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general, the sharper general takes into account not only probable dangers, but also those which may be totally unexpected.

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  Next, make peace a time of training for war and battle an exhibition of bravery. So during peace, prepare.

• 1:30:29Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general should not go to sleep before reflecting on what he should have done, that he might have neglected, and on what he has to do the next day. Get ready for the next day the night before, period. Can you do that? Yes, you can.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  I think that's good to, to not go to bed without reflecting on it. I, I think, I don't, it seems like that's something that, that most people probably wouldn't do, just in life, I mean, you know?

• 1:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, absolutely. This is about life. You don't have to put that caveat on there. This is about life.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Think that's a good, yeah. I mean, shoot, go to bed. It's time to go to bed.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Whatever. Yeah, I got work tomorrow, but you know, you typically you don't.

• 1:31:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, it doesn't take long to say, you know what? This is what I got done today.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  This is what I got done today. And you know what? This is something to think about when it's, when you're prepping to get stuff done, when you know you got a long day. Think about how good it feels when you accomplish a lot in one day. That's how you want to go to bed at night.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Going, yeah, I nailed this. I nailed this. I nailed this. Oh, I messed up this, but I'm gonna get on it tomorrow and fix it.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the part right there.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. Doesn't take long.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do that.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  Echo is gonna do it.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  And why don't you do it while you're editing videos for this podcast?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  I do, bro.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  I like it. I like it.

• 1:31:55Jocko Willink?

  Next, it is well for the general to exercise self-control at all times, but especially during war.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general should not be hasty in placing confidence in people who promise to do something. If he does, almost everyone will think he's lightheaded.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta, you can't just be, "Hey, I know you're gonna take care of it, I trust you." Gotta, gotta put a check a little bit. Next, long and careful deliberation promises great safety in war, whereas hasty and impetuous generals usually commit serious blunders.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general should set an example of how things ought to be done for his subordinates. Training himself in the highest ideals, doing what is right, and refraining from those things his soldiers should refrain from. Set the example.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  The general should make sure of the good disposition of his troops by an oath.

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  Next, if the general knows the inclinations and tendencies of each officer and soldier, he will know better what duties should be assigned to each one. Know your people.

• 1:33:21Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general who wants to keep his plans concealed from the enemy should never take the rank and file of his own troops into his confidence. So just be careful. Be careful who you're telling.

• 1:33:34Jocko Willink?

  And does that,

• 1:33:37Jocko Willink?

  does that contradict, you know, having a, what is that, transparent, transparency in your leadership? No, it doesn't. You, you, you don't have to divulge every single idea that you have to your entire chain of command. Especially because you're gonna change those ideas, things are gonna adapt, things are gonna get different. So this isn't contradictory to say, you know what, I'm not going to tell every single person, especially if you've got a security situation, right? I mean, we're talking about national security. Yeah, there's things that are need to know only. That's a legitimate thing. Hey, if Echo doesn't need to know this, and that can happen in the business world, too. Because you do have people leaving, you do have spies, you do have all these people coming and going from businesses. So this is legit. This isn't, this isn't a lack of transparency. This is prudent.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  Information control.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I go home, I tell my wife, and she's cruising with her neighbor, you know? And they're like, hey, that was interesting. So the wife goes home, tells the husband, now everybody knows.

• 1:34:34Jocko Willink?

  Who's putting together all those little dots?

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Painting a picture. Next, when both sides are equally well armed, the better tactician will win. Next, the general who possesses some skill in public speaking is able, as in the past, to rouse the weak hearted to battle and restore courage to a defeated army. Work on those skills, just like we learned in the, in the guidebook, the 1950 guidebook for military officers. Work on your speaking skills. How do you do it? Practice. It is good to occupy any hills in the area before the enemy has a chance to do so. Boom, take the high ground.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  This is awesome. Reiterate it again and again and again. Take the high ground. Next, as in the past, misleading moves taken by the general can be very advantageous. For example, if he makes it look as though he's going to set up camp, the enemy might be lured into doing the same thing. Then while they're scattered about getting things ready, he may secretly draw up his troops and attack, or he may quietly withdraw his army if the terrain is unfavorable. Simple. Next, in his movements, the general should act like a good wrestler. He should feint in one direction to try and deceive his adversary and then make good use

• 1:36:04Jocko Willink?

  of the opportunities he finds, and in this way, he will overpower the enemy.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  Same thing with Jiu-Jitsu, by the way. Randy could have swapped those out if he wanted to. I guess he could have said "pancreation." Sure.

• 1:36:20Jocko Willink?

  Next, "In battles and in every action against the enemy, the wise general, even the most courageous, will keep in mind the possibility of failure and defeat, and will plan for them as actually occurring."

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  Huh? You're confident? That's great. Plan for what's gonna happen if it fails. What's the worst-case scenario? What if things go wrong? What are you gonna do?

• 1:36:48Jocko Willink?

  "The spirit of the commander is naturally communicated to the troops, and there's an ancient saying that it's better to have an army of deer commanded by a lion than an army of lions commanded by a deer."

• 1:37:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a pretty common one.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 1:37:10Jocko Willink?

  "If you imitate the enemy and do what he is doing for his own benefit, you only harm yourself. Conversely, if you do something which is to your advantage in trying to imitate you, the enemy will injure himself." A lot of times, you do see that in the business world where the competitor is something, so they're like, "Oh, we'll do it too." I'm not saying that's never good, but if you're doing that, it means you're behind. So, try and step up. Come up with some original plans and make something happen.

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Next, "A wise commander will not engage the enemy in a pitched battle unless truly exceptional opportunity or advantage presents itself." We're hearing that over and over again.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Next, "Whatever terrain the general chooses, he should make his troops familiar with it. They will then be able to avoid rough spots and because of their knowledge of the area, will fight the enemy with confidence." Know your terrain.

• 1:38:10Jocko Willink?

  Next, "When the general leads his men out to battle, he should present a cheerful appearance, avoiding any gloomy look. Soldiers usually estimate their prospects by the appearance of the general." So if you're in a leadership position, that's what they're saying. If you're in a leadership position, the people are watching you. And if you look like sullen and downtrodden, guess what? They're gonna think we're about to get whooped.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  Next, after a victory, the general should not allow the men to break ranks right away. For it has happened often enough that the enemy, on noticing that our men have led down their guard and rejoicing and have broken ranks, have regained their courage, come back to fight, and turned our victory into defeat. Don't let your guard down. Boom. I think we're hearing that loud and clear from Maurice. Next, when the enemy is surrounded, it is well to leave a gap in our lines to give them an opportunity to flee, in case they judge that flight is better than remaining and taking their chances in battle. Next, an army is judged by the spirit

• 1:39:16Jocko Willink?

  of its general. Next, it is better to avoid a tricky opponent than one who never lets up.

• 1:39:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say that again. It's better to avoid a tricky opponent than one who never lets up. The latter makes no secret of what he is doing, whereas it is difficult to find what the other is up to. So, conversely, which one do you want to be? Of course, we want to have determination, and we never want to make sure they know that we're never gonna let up, but you really want to be the one that keeps them guessing. Harder to deal with. Next, the commander should be severe and thorough in investigating charges against his men, but merciful in punishing them.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  This will gain him and their goodwill, in their goodwill. Next, the general should be calm in emergencies, prudent in counsel, courteous to his associates. He will be most successful in battle if he charges against the enemy not like a wild beast, but in a calculated manner.

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general should be ignorant of none of the situations likely to occur in war. Who can attempt to accomplish what he does not understand? And ask that again, who can attempt to accomplish what he does not understand? Who is able to furnish assistance in situations whose dangers he does not understand?

• 1:40:56Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta get the knowledge.

• 1:40:59Jocko Willink?

  Next, the general must make plans to defeat the enemy not only by arms, but also through their food and drink. Making the water unfit to drink and poisoning the grain.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  And that's, again, we're not just attacking on one front.

• 1:41:26Jocko Willink?

  We're attacking on all the fronts. We're not just attacking with swords and bows and arrows and lances, we're poisoning the water. We're poisoning the grain. We're attacking at every possible angle.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  And that wraps it up. That's, that's Maurice's strategic con. And by the way, I forgot to mention this. This is somebody, somebody on Twitter said, hey, check out this book. I got it. Opened it up and said, yes. Ancient War. Bring it. Maxims. Bring it. Awesome book. And, you know, I wanted to close this out kind of with something

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  Roman related. And of course, I thought about Julius. When you think of Rome, you think of Julius Caesar. When you think of Julius Caesar, you think about that guy named Shakespeare.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Who wrote a play called Julius Caesar? And I'm obviously not going to do the whole thing right now, but there's a...

• 1:42:32Jocko Willink?

  Part of it. And, and, you know, we're talking about leadership, right? And really, in, in talking about Maurice and Caesar, actual rulers of an empire. That's what they were, rulers of an empire. It, it's possible to think that maybe they were better than us, right? Like, they were superior human beings. And it's also possible to think that they were better than us, not by what they did. And how they led. It's possible to say, oh, you know, Maurice came up with this stuff. Ah, that's just, that's not why he was the ruler.

• 1:43:17Jocko Willink?

  This is luck, it's fate. But in the play Julius Caesar by Shakespeare, Cassius reminds us, as he speaks to Brutus, that that isn't so. Not so, not luck. He, he explains to Caesar, in these great lines, he explains to him that, that Caesar stands above the world like a giant. So Caesar's a giant, like a colossus is the word he uses. While we, us down here, we little men, we just wander about.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  Wander about under his massive legs, under his giant presence. We're just, we're just moving aimlessly towards a, toward death, towards a dishonorable death. But this is what I like about it is then Cassius explains that it isn't fate that has put Caesar into that powerful position. But that men, men control their own destinies. And that men are masters of their fate.

• 1:44:44Jocko Willink?

  And that the fault in men, the thing that holds us back from greatness, it doesn't lie in chance, it doesn't lie in the way that the stars are aligned, no.

• 1:45:00Jocko Willink?

  The fault lies within us, not in the stars. It is our fault that we become slaves instead of kings.

• 1:45:17Jocko Willink?

  And this is, this is how Shakespeare put it.

• 1:45:24Jocko Willink?

  Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world like a colossus.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  And we petty men walk under his huge legs and peep about to find ourselves dishonorable graves.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  Men at some time are masters of their fates.

• 1:45:53Jocko Willink?

  The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.

• 1:46:03Jocko Willink?

  That we are underlings.

• 1:46:10Jocko Willink?

  So Cassius there is making an early case for ownership, for extreme ownership, which is obviously something that I believe in.

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  Then that is that you can't blame fate, you can't blame the stars.

• 1:46:30Jocko Willink?

  The fault lies within us and you gotta own it. You gotta own that fault, you gotta fix it.

• 1:46:41Jocko Willink?

  You gotta dictate your own future, don't let fate dictate your future.

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  You gotta make that decision to be better.

• 1:46:54Jocko Willink?

  To be a king, like Caesar, to be a general,

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  to be a leader. And most, most important,

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  to be a free human being. That's what he's talking about. He's talking about underlings. They're slaves.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  Don't be a slave. Be a slave

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  to any other man, and don't be a slave to weakness, and don't be a slave to sloth.

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  And don't be a slave to your ego.

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  Don't be a slave, be free. Free your mind.

• 1:47:41Jocko Willink?

  And the thing is, you can't free your mind until you realize, like Cassius says, "The fault is in ourselves."

• 1:47:53Jocko Willink?

  And the pathway to overcoming our faults is not complaining, or blaming, or making excuses,

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  or attacking others. No.

• 1:48:06Jocko Willink?

  The pathway to freedom actually comes from attacking ourselves. Attacking ourselves with, with discipline, and with hard work, and with physical training, and mental training, and, and reading, and studying, and learning.

• 1:48:27Jocko Willink?

  And that, that is how

• 1:48:32Jocko Willink?

  we overcome those faults. That's how we leave behind the underlings, the slaves.

• 1:48:43Jocko Willink?

  That's how we

• 1:48:45Jocko Willink?

  get away from the darkness of subjugation.

• 1:48:52Jocko Willink?

  And that is how

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  we become free.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 1:49:06Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight. Looks like we're pretty long to slide into Q and A right now.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  Echo.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:49:21Jocko Willink?

  If we are not going to do Q and A.

• 1:49:27Jocko Willink?

  I have a question.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Hit me.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  If people wanted to support this podcast.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:49:34Jocko Willink?

  Do you know of any ways that they can do that?

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  I do. As a matter of fact, let me go ahead and tell you about it.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  So. People have been asking me. And not the kind, you know how like some people they'll they'll say that they'll be like, hey, people, a lot of people have been asking me about this, but it's like two people. You know, and they say a lot of people. It's not that case. There's a lot of people. Probably like 20 people, which is a lot of people asking the same question, by the way.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people asking the same question.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  So anyway, they're like, hey, what, what supplements or are these on it? On it? I'm talking about on it. So the supplements and the krill oil is that the good stuff is the true tech is that the good stuff? And I was like, cool. Um, yeah, yeah, they're, they're the good stuff or whatever. But so you kind of think, and I was thinking about this when I was actually working out. And I was like, hey, to myself. It's not like the supplements you take aren't gonna like get you in Jocko shape, you know? It's gonna be like all the other stuff like.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  You mean hard work?

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. You know, workout, diet, rest, like all this stuff. And if you have like, you know, whatever goal.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  The supplements are gonna like, they're gonna help you get there faster. They're gonna create less roadblocks, you know, injuries, all this other stuff. Keep you, put you and or keep you in better health, like all this stuff. Right. But the way I kind, I don't know, I could have been taking it wrong though, that it sounded like they were like, oh, yeah, I'm looking for like the answer kind of thing. Not all of them, but that's kind of, I don't know, maybe it was just collectively, that's what it felt like.

• 1:51:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  So I think that's important to point out.

• 1:51:18Jocko Willink?

  Supplements are not the answer.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  Your squat rack is the answer.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Jocko Willink?

  Your pull up bar is the answer.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you gotta do that stuff like over and over. Like, you know how, okay. I'm not gonna mention his name. But one of my friends would be like, yeah, you're like, you're a genetic guy, whatever. You know, they'll be like, yeah, genet- your genetics are like, good. And I'm not saying my genetics are not good. I'm not gonna say they are or are not, I'm not saying that. But I got into like, working out when I was 14 years old. Didn't stop, by the way. Knew about like diet and all this other stuff. So when you hit, let's say, let's say you had not started working out when you're 14. Let's say you were like, oh, you know, I know what a weight room is kind of thing. I'm out of shape, I'm 35 or whatever, however old. And you say, I want to get in good shape.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  It's like, that's a completely different situation, you know?

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you could possibly try and blame the fault on your genetics, but it's not the fault of your genetics. It's not the fault of the stars, baby.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  The fault is yours.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause you didn't work out now, you could say, hey, I didn't, wasn't the environment? Okay, cool. That doesn't matter anymore.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:30Jocko Willink?

  What matters is how you're gonna fix it.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, what are we gonna do? Exactly right. So which brings us to the same, eh, kind of this profile, maybe fundamental concept of it's not like, it's not these external things. You're not gonna escape the fact that if you wanted like, get in shape, you gotta go get in shape. And that entails these fundamental things. It's not gonna be the supplements. It's not gonna be your genetics, the supplements, genetics, all this stuff. That's part of the game, for sure. But that's not what's gonna get you there. So that being said, I'm gonna recommend some supplements. But in the hopes of us, everybody, being on a good workout program.

• 1:53:12Jocko Willink?

  Yes. These will help you if you're on a good workout program, by the way.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  These will definitely help you.

• 1:53:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and a lot of people, speaking of, again, a lot of people, I don't mean to.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:24Jocko Willink?

  I mean, more than. Two.

• 1:53:29Jocko Willink?

  Think about all the people on Twitter that have said, I've been taking krill oil.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  My knees feel better now. Oh, my shoulders feel better. That's, that's a fact. Krill oil works.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And personally, however many people told me that it worked for them, that has no bearing on my understanding that it works because it works for me. And I don't take like protein massive gainer to get big money. I don't do that. You can, I guess. And that's cool. And I'm not going to recommend necessarily that. But like krill oil, for example, like that will keep you in the game way more.

• 1:54:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  In my opinion, than like a creatine situation. I think.

• 1:54:05Jocko Willink?

  I agree with you. This is, and you're, by the way, for those of you don't know, Echo does have a doctorate in neuroscience.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, if you notice, I won't make any.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  Scientific.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Claims. Yes. Or maybe I will. I don't know.

• 1:54:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, the, the best claim you can make is that you use it and you feel it. That's.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, that is bro science, I guess.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, it's anecdotal.

• 1:54:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's anecdotal. But what if it works for me too?

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. Then we're starting to paint that picture with the dots. Remember who you're talking about?

• 1:54:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  Same thing. And, and I do want to add that this, that does mean something when I say it works for me because I was for a long time, time anti supplements where it's like, yeah, you're just taking that to make yourself feel better about working out or whatever. And they're selling it to you because they're telling you the same thing. For a long time, I didn't take any supplements and still had gains and all, you know, was doing fine.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Gains.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  So I was like, yeah, supplements. You know, when people talk about supplements, I was like, bro, you're totally wasting your time because you can just eat good and eat enough of the right thing and, and do everything that your supplements is doing.

• 1:55:17Jocko Willink?

  True. You can do that.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. But here's the thing. I don't know if you can do that with krill oil unless you're eating a bunch of krill in a smoothie. Even that, I don't know, you know, can you? Shroom tech. How can you replace that with diet? I don't know if you can, man. So I'm slowly and this is what it was. It was like the correct kind of supplements. That's what it is. So krill oil, take care of your joints. The other ones that you take. Strong bone, yeah. Dope. Shroom tech, if if you want a little efficient oxygen usage, you know, keep you in that those hard workouts longer, better, more comfortable. Get you in the like in the car, the RPMs, you know, what goes it's in the black and it goes into.

• 1:55:59Jocko Willink?

  We know, you know why we know.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Cause I told you.

• 1:56:02Jocko Willink?

  Tell us.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, the slogan is you can't pull ahead if you're in the red. So the shroom tech keeps you in the like the yellow, maybe the orange. Anyway.

• 1:56:14Jocko Willink?

  The other day. Shroom tech. I took, we we showed up to train and it was the kind of the the pipe hitting training partners, you know, the guys that.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  The big dogs.

• 1:56:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the big dogs. And before I went, before I went. I had worked out as normal.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sure.

• 1:56:31Jocko Willink?

  But I took, not only did I take shroom tech sport, I also took the pre-workout drink.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:39Jocko Willink?

  What is it called?

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Earth grown.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's earth grown something. It's pre-workout.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Jocko Willink?

  And I took both and we did 10 rounds. You know, 10 rounds, that's 10, five minute, they were five minute rounds because I was training with MMA fighters, so. But 10.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  One hour of training.

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  A little over an hour of training. I was good. You showed, wait.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 1:57:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  For that one.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but it but. I walked out of there going, hmm. Shroom tech.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Shroom tech.

• 1:57:07Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Where they win.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  I mean, 10 rounds is hardcore.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:10Jocko Willink?

  When you're going with no, because because you can do a round with three hard guys and then you go against someone that's not that great and you can completely relax and recover.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, some active recovery.

• 1:57:18Jocko Willink?

  When you are going against every guy is trying to rip your head off and they have the capability of doing it, 10 rounds is a lot of rounds.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  And the feeling there is because I've been in the same boat. Uh, I'm not going to necessarily say 10 rounds, but in the same boat where

• 1:57:33Jocko Willink?

  A lot of rounds where I go.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Actually, I've done six 10s.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  That's good.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:39Jocko Willink?

  Been some, some might consider.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, with heavy hitters, all of them. Yeah.

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  That's tiring.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Yes. So basically what the Shroom Tech will do is put in layman's terms. What it'll do is, you know, the feeling, let's say you go six 10s.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, can you do scientific terms for us here?

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm going layman. Thank you.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  After the six 10s or the one hour of rolling, you're going to be like phys, just physically, you know, like dang, I'm done. That felt good, whatever. But we're done. I'm good. I'm going to go home and rest, eat my stuff. I'm good.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And even today, when I showed up today to roll and we had some, we didn't do anything that extreme, but when I showed up, I already worked out hard. Strength and Metcon. Then I went surfing. You know, getting after it.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:58:30Jocko Willink?

  For Eddie. Didn't eat anything, but just rolled in. No, I had some, I take that back. I had some bacon, like three pieces of bacon. In between working out and surfing. So I was like, had some bacon. Then shoot, then I had some Shroom Tech.

• 1:58:47Jocko Willink?

  And then on the way to the gym, I drank the, uh, the pre-workout stuff.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  And I felt ready to rock and roll.

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, I don't actually, instead of me saying I was ready to rock and roll, why don't you answer that question?

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Jocko appeared and demonstrated that he was ready to rock and roll, as it were.

• 1:59:04Jocko Willink?

  I actually wasn't ready. I actually did rock and roll.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:07Jocko Willink?

  Which is, which is.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. You were, you were, you didn't talk about it. You beat about it.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I beat about it.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  Afterwards, after the hard rolls with the Shroom Tech, you'll feel like, sure, yeah, that was good. That was hard. I could go another one. Like I could keep going. That's how you feel. Not necessarily that you want to keep going, but you could, you feel like you could.

• 1:59:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, I wanted to.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  And will.

• 1:59:28Jocko Willink?

  The podcast.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So that's different, but you know, I get it. Anyway, yeah. Shroom Tech. That's a good one. Shroom Tech Sport. Still haven't done Shroom Tech Immune. I think that's the next one.

• 1:59:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  Warrior bars. And okay. So we'll talk about that pre-workout one. And I only, I took it one time for rolling and I was like, okay, cool. But I'd been taking it all week for lifting, working out, Metcons.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Very, very good, very effective. Okay, and here's, here's the, the, the really the results, the proof, straight up proof. He's right. So you know how like, okay, do you do, do you do any kind of like pressing? Yeah. Or any kind of lifting, even pull ups or something? You know how some days you're like, oh, I feel like flat. I can still do them, but I feel flat. Yeah. Then some days the opposite where you're like, boom, I got a little pop in my thing, not necessarily stronger or doing more. Maybe you are, but I just got a little pop in it, in my, my movement or whatever. That's how you felt and it was noticeable. And I was like, okay. And here's the thing with mine, I did do more. More weight than I normally do, more reps than I normally do. But I was like, okay, that was the first day. I was like, okay, you know, that easily could have been other circumstances, totally could.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause sometimes you just feel the pop. Feel the pop. You got more rest, you know? Hmm. Yesterday was, you know, easier. I don't know, whatever. All these other circumstances, you never know. So boom. Next time I lift, do it again. Same pop, same feeling. It's like, okay. And that's different. Typically you don't get two pops in a, in a week. So anyway, next time I go, I go in again. I'm like, all right, we can keep this going.

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  This is a telltale. So here's what happened. So I warm up, my routine is I warm up, I work out, that's it. I warm up and I have my son and he needs some, something without going too far into it. I warm up, ready to go, ready to go, first set. He needs something for half an hour. I'm like, okay, you know, I go, so do I have to warm up again? Am I, you know, am I gonna? Did you utilize the pop to care for your son?

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  No, no. What I'm saying is kind of physiologically and mentally, I'm out of, I went out of the game for a little bit, out of the workout. So I come back, I gotta reengage mentally and I'm fit to be honest, like mental, I was like, shoot, I'm kind of flat. Back in the day, that might have postponed the workout till tomorrow. Back in the day. Anyway, so I'm like, all right, I'm a little bit flat, whatever. I should, I'm working out today. That's it, you know, whatever. Um. Maybe I gotta warm up again. I don't know. Maybe you just gotta get mentally harder. For sure. Yeah, there's no question about that. Everyone knows that. So whatever I get under there, I choose the weight that I had already chose, you know, chose before when I was like, I'm, I'm in it. Yeah.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Boom, boom, boom, boom. More reps than I expected. It was a winning day.

• 2:02:17Jocko Willink?

  That's good.

• 2:02:18Speaker 01

  Three in a row. Anyway, that was it.

• 2:02:20Jocko Willink?

  Sounding like some strong.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  Well, I'm in. It's to me, that's like, okay, even if you say scientific proof or not scientific, of course, it's not scientific proof. But that's like, to me, that says, okay, this is something you're gonna be taking now. You know what I mean? It's not like I tried it. No difference. I'll try to get it.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  That's sort of what the 10 rounds.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, you're on. You're in it.

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay. You know what I did today? Took it again.

• 2:02:45Jocko Willink?

  Took it again.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 2:02:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, and actually, we had some no-shows today at the gym.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I wasn't one of those, so.

• 2:02:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were there. I was there, but and we had some other heavy hitters there, but we didn't get the full

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  Spectrum.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Spectrum of heavy hitters that were there to crush. So I didn't even need to take it.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it didn't get put to the test.

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  It's good. So now I'm kinda in a way, I'm a supplement guy.

• 2:03:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so if people wanted to get these supplements, how could they get them?

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  All right. On it.com. You want 10% off? You go to on.com/jaco. You want the 10% off? Support yourself, support the podcast if you're in the mood to, and you know, go handle your business. Another cool way, Amazon click through. So

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Sarah, thanks for the duct tape. I want to say that. All the duct, I have like a pile of duct tape too, which is.

• 2:03:37Jocko Willink?

  None of it's here, by the way.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:03:39Jocko Willink?

  Because I needed it.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  She sent it.

• 2:03:41Jocko Willink?

  Microphones.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there's smiley faces on it.

• 2:03:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay, it can't be on the podcast.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  But the smiley face, you know how now the new iPhones, you type a word and it suggests an emoji? So if you type in good, guess what's right there? Smiley face. It should be your face, but now it's a smiley face currently.

• 2:04:01Jocko Willink?

  Slack HQ has that for some reason. My face or someone, I don't really understand it fully, but somebody sent me a little picture of an emoji that said good.

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of the same concept, but generally speaking, it's a smiley face. Smiley face went on the duct tape layers. You know what I'm saying?

• 2:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I did. It's good duct.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Good duct tape, but emoji style, you know, Sarah's, she's clever like that. Anyway.

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  The point is, Amazon, if you're shopping for duct tape or anything else, not necessarily duct tape, but like books, you know, you want to get this one or whatever. And we list that on the website too, by the way, if you didn't already know. Click through, go to the website, jocko podcast.com, click through the Amazon banner over there on the side and then do your shopping. You can support podcasts that way. You said, small click, like it takes like two seconds, right? Click on it, go do your shopping. Two seconds supports, you know, like a big amount.

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, because there's a lot more than just you.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Clicking, like just, it's not just one person clicking.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Which would be helpful, but when a bunch of people click through, then it's very helpful.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:07Jocko Willink?

  Creates a bigger reaction.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, small action, huge reaction. And I made the reference to when you throw a small piece of sodium metal in a, you know, in water and the big chemical reaction. So I'm like, wait, did I remember that correctly? I looked up on YouTube, looked up, so put sodium in water, looked that up. So you get guys, they'll, they'll have a big fish tank with water, they'll throw the sodium and the fish tank will blow up.

• 2:05:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, people posted them on Twitter. Did you see the one where somebody had a, somebody's holding a small brick of sodium and threw it in the lake? Did you see that?

• 2:05:39Speaker 01

  No, yes.

• 2:05:39Jocko Willink?

  It's exploding everywhere.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Where can I get that?

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. Right. So when you, next time you shop Amazon, you think, hey, I'm shopping Amazon, I'm going to buy some batteries. That little click through the jocko podcast.com.

• 2:05:54Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  That's that sodium that we were looking at on those videos. It's crazy. Anyway, that's a good way to support in a big way. And then, yeah, so YouTube, that's a good one, right? Subscribe to the YouTube channel. Subscribe to the iTunes one as well, but that one seems kind of obvious. Most people already subscribe, but if you haven't.

• 2:06:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, we went over, we went over an entire book today of obvious things that people don't always, myself.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:18Jocko Willink?

  So we need to reiterate, just so we all make sure we're on board.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Reinforce with our friends.

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:25Jocko Willink?

  That you should always be prepared.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, always be prepared. Yeah, really, that one was all about preparedness. Yeah, subscribe, iTunes, subscribe, be a subscriber to the podcast. And that's no commitment, you just unsubscribe. If you don't like what Jocko's talking about, you just unsubscribe. But if you like, and you do want to support.

• 2:06:40Jocko Willink?

  What if they don't like what you're talking about?

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  That too, you know, that too.

• 2:06:45Jocko Willink?

  That's a bummer.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  That is a bummer.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Youtube.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  Luckily, you don't talk a lot.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I try to keep it.

• 2:06:52Jocko Willink?

  You don't like Echo?

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 2:06:54Jocko Willink?

  You just suck it up. Fast forward his voice.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  Hold the line. Yeah, on most podcast apps.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  You're pretty screwed.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you can have a long, long struggle.

• 2:07:02Jocko Willink?

  Maybe there's people that are just listening to Echo. They're like fast forwarding through me.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you press the skip, skip 10 seconds.

• 2:07:08Jocko Willink?

  Echo's about to say something super dope.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  Yup. The one guy, my mom or something like this. Anyway. Youtube. We do more videos now. We put out the little the shareable.

• 2:07:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  McNuggets, bro. How's this? My brother the other day, he's like, hey, this, this new guy. You know, he listens to a lot of like talks and stuff. He's like, this new guy's talking about this. I'm like, oh, that's good. He's like, yeah, he's talking about, he goes into these little ideas that he's talking about. I was like, oh, I was like, hey, send that to me. And I usually won't say, I'll be like, cool, maybe I'll look into it, kind of thing. And I'm like, dad, this one song, I said, send it to me. He sends it to us, hour 37 minutes long. I'm like, bro, I would, yeah, I, and I scolded him. I said, you can't do that to me. We got into like a little thing.

• 2:07:53Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna have everyone that listens scolding you.

• 2:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, but not anymore. You know why? Because we have Jocko McNuggets, three minutes. You wanna learn about how to, how to, not learn necessarily, but yeah, learn. If you want advice, good advice, Jocko advice. On what, how you should approach college, after the military, after high school, whatever.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Go ahead and listen to that. Three, four minutes. Boom. You're good to go. You're ready to go to college. Ready to function. If you say, hey, listen to this podcast, it's in there somewhere, two hours long. No, anyway.

• 2:08:25Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people don't have the attention span for that. And but it's, but you do other ones besides just college.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Exactly, right. We do a bunch of them.

• 2:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Multiple McNuggets.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  And I do suggestions.

• 2:08:34Jocko Willink?

  Like a 20 pack of McNuggets.

• 2:08:36Speaker 01

  Sure. More than that even, really. And you know, you can share and consume, you know, boom, boom, boom. I do suggestions as well, requests, if you will. People on Twitter, they're like, hey, Jocko Podcast 20.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  What does it take to actually make that come true?

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  It's not 100% turnover.

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  See, people don't like that.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  It's unreliable.

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  It's.

• 2:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Do you respond and say yes or no?

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Kind of. Yeah, I don't say yes or no, like, yes, I'm gonna do that one. I'm I just noted, you know, so, yeah, I mean, they're all good. I know. But when they see him, boom, there it is.

• 2:09:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you should actually tell them. But I know it might be hard.

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Because you're gonna lose track of them all.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 2:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Or maybe you should just do them all.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, maybe. There it is. I think that's that. But, yeah, so, you know.

• 2:09:24Jocko Willink?

  There's no downside, right? There's no downside.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  To doing them all?

• 2:09:28Jocko Willink?

  To do, no, to doing a bunch. Is there a downside to saying making a bunch of them? There's not, unless you make ones that are lame.

• 2:09:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Unless you pick out a lame one when I'm talking about something stupid or making mistakes.

• 2:09:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  Or giving bad advice to the world.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Don't do those.

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  Those are, that's a downside for sure.

• 2:09:45Jocko Willink?

  The good ones.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:47Jocko Willink?

  No downside.

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  Okay, there you go. And when you subscribe, boom, you you have like.

• 2:09:52Jocko Willink?

  Because I I subscribe.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  And when you upload something, you don't tell me.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  I just get a little email that says, Jocko Podcast just uploaded a video. And I just go, wow! Yes!

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:04Jocko Willink?

  Echo has been hard at work for four minutes making a video.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's good to, um.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  You're taking heavies today from me. I'm sorry.

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  All day, bro. All good, though. I took it off a brain, so I'm solid, I think.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so subscribe to, subscribe if you're in the mood, subscribe to YouTube if you like that stuff. Which is cool. Um, and then, of course, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. URL is jockostore.com. Anyway, shirts. You like these slogans? The slogan, is that a lame word for like, discipline equals freedom?

• 2:10:47Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I think it's, I think it factually

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  would, could be used, but I don't know that it necessarily, I'm not waving it around, jumping up and down.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  Although if you ask me a question on Twitter, like Guy asked me the other day, how can I wake up early? How can I work out every day? And how can I eat the right foods?

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm just gonna tell you discipline.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:11:13Jocko Willink?

  That's so easy.

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, the point there is that there's some shirts. They're cool. I think they're cool, but if you think they're cool, you want to support podcasts, you get a shirt, a hoodie, like some good stuff there. Add even some more stuff. And look at them. If you, if you like some stuff, get some of that. Support the podcast. Support yourself too. Get a new shirt. It's kind of cool when you order some, you know, the day it comes in, you know, even just regular Amazon stuff. About this little microphone adapter for my other stuff. It comes in.

• 2:11:46Jocko Willink?

  What's your other stuff?

• 2:11:48Speaker 01

  I do stuff.

• 2:11:49Jocko Willink?

  This is kind of messed up. I'm gonna do none of this stuff. I'm just doing this.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  I know, bro. Anyway, so yeah, when, you know, shirts come in, you can wear them. You got a new shirt. Discipline equals freedom. Jocko's head says good backwards. So when you look in the mirror, it's telling you good, like, you know, that whole thing. Yeah.

• 2:12:06Jocko Willink?

  That's a good one.

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  Whatever. The coffee mugs, I'm, um, working with this guy, Chris. He's really helping you narrow down a better travel mug.

• 2:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Travel mug.

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, the travel. It's gonna be good. Real good.

• 2:12:20Jocko Willink?

  That's good.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Other stuff on there. Look at it. And I'm not saying buy it. I'm saying go there. If you like something, get something.

• 2:12:26Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to support the podcast. It's a good way to support the podcast.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  And actually, so maybe someone will ask you about what that means. And you say, oh, it's, I listen to a podcast.

• 2:12:36Speaker 01

  Yep. Which happens a lot, according to my experience and the experience of others that email me.

• 2:12:42Jocko Willink?

  They meet. They spread the word.

• 2:12:43Speaker 01

  People will be like, what does that mean? Who's that guy on your shirt? If you're like, and here's a, here's a funny one that you wouldn't really think of. So let's say I'm wearing the Jocko good shirt. Has your face on it, right? I'm at my friend's house barbecue, whatever. And we're like, hey, let's all take a picture. And you have the thing and it's, you know, the square that finds the faces. It's finding your face on my shirt. And they're like, oh, wait. They're like, oh, it's finding your, the face on your shirt echo. And then later on, they're like, who's that on your shirt? Boom. Spread the word. You know, it's like one of those kinds of things.

• 2:13:20Jocko Willink?

  I like the idea of spreading the word. Cause what's cool is, uh, you know, we get, I get a lot of messages. People saying, hey, thanks.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  I lost 40 pounds. Hey, thanks. I'm back in school. Hey, thanks. I got a promotion. I'm not doing any of that. You guys are doing it. But. You're somehow influenced on the fact that you're getting your, you're getting your discipline together. You're working hard and you're getting, your life is getting better. So when you spread the word, you're helping somebody else too, which is cool.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Um, but yeah, those are the ways, you know, other ways there's uh psychological warfare. And here this is an ambiguous one.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  So no more, oh wait, no, every day. Those are two different ones, right? No more and every day?

• 2:14:08Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I believe so.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Okay, I listened to the everyday one. Because I, you know how like when you're like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm new. I turned over a new leaf, whatever the expression is. My new year's resolution and you go hard typically, typically you go hard. You're like, I'm carbs are gone. You know, you don't cut a little bit, they're gone, right?

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  After like a little while, usually like four or five days, you're kind of like, ah, maybe not gone, you know? So you listen to every day, right? Every day, really, it not only does it like make you like fired up to keep going, but it puts it in perspective, you know?

• 2:14:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  It's like you, I don't know, this is a cliche, but Michael Jordan or something like this, someone who's doing, someone who's successful, you know? He didn't go back to old him five days later, you know?

• 2:14:56Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:14:57Speaker 01

  And that sounds real obvious and yeah, we heard that before, but that's what, why that's effective. So psychological warfare, if you don't know, it is an album, spoken word album. It's available on iTunes of like little, for lack of a better term.

• 2:15:14Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare.

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like verbal. You can listen to it, it tells you to get after it.

• 2:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  Under certain circumstances, you know?

• 2:15:26Jocko Willink?

  There's actually specifically made to deal with common everyday weaknesses that we all face. So when you face one of those weaknesses, you can just press play. Track seven, track four. Oh, everyone that's asked for an alarm clock to wake up, just get this album, set it as your alarm tone. I'm waking you up in the morning.

• 2:15:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:15:51Jocko Willink?

  Tell your wife, tell your significant others, otherwise they're gonna think there's a strange man in the room talking to them and they're gonna freak out. Pull out their firearm.

• 2:16:00Jocko Willink?

  Bad things could happen.

• 2:16:01Speaker 01

  Affirmative.

• 2:16:02Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare, it's on iTunes.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, psychological.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  I should think I should put on like Amazon Music too.

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you should.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yeah, currently iTunes search psychological warfare.

• 2:16:16Jocko Willink?

  It's on Google Play too, right?

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Jocka Willink. Uh, I don't know. I don't know if Google, the podcast is.

• 2:16:20Jocko Willink?

  No, I know the podcast is.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the, the distribution channels.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you need to expand.

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta expand for sure.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  Expand, get in the game.

• 2:16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's a good one. And incidentally, supports the podcast.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  That's true. Very true, which is appreciated. All right. So also, you can get Jocka White Tea. That supports the podcast and it supports you and it's in stock. We got a bunch of it and it will do things to you.

• 2:16:55Jocko Willink?

  If you want to crush the souls of your enemies, drink some Jocka White Tea. It'll be a little bit easier to do that. You'll, it'll, it'll taste better. So that's that. We had get after it mugs. They're out of stock.

• 2:17:14Jocko Willink?

  I sent one to Joe Rogan. He took a picture of it. They're gone. They're gone. So I got more to be in order. They're being made logistical nightmare, all that. Sorry. Keep checking. They'll be back in stock. They say get after it. While you're there on Amazon, you can also get a book called Extreme Ownership, written by me and my brother Leif Babbin. It's about leadership.

• 2:17:38Jocko Willink?

  And it's about combat. So if you like the podcast, you dig that book.

• 2:17:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, I also have another book that's going to be coming out in May. It's not available for preorder yet, but it will be. And I will announce it when it comes out. I think everyone's going to be pretty psyched on it because I am.

• 2:18:02Jocko Willink?

  And also, the Extreme Ownership muster, May 4th and 5th, at the Marriott Marquis in New York City. This is it. This is the gathering.

• 2:18:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:18:15Jocko Willink?

  It's about leadership. It's about strategy. It's about tactics.

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  It's about getting after it. Google it. You'll find it. We'll see you there. And

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  until we see you there. If you want to see us,

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  well, we can actually be found

• 2:18:35Jocko Willink?

  all up in the interwebs.

• 2:18:38Jocko Willink?

  We are on Twitter. We are on Instagram and you gonna also could find us on dash Facebooky boha.

• 2:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Cruising with you, my friend. She Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. Thanks for the support. And you know, we talk a little bit about these Amazon clicks and the store purchases and the getting the tea and the mugs and the t-shirts and all that stuff. Just so you know, that support is actually literally what fuels the podcast. That's what the podcast runs off of. So thanks for all that. Truly, we appreciate it. Thanks to the military, the military personnel that are out there smashing our enemies.

• 2:19:30Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to law enforcement and firefighters for protecting us here at home. And the rest of you that are out there listening, that are working through your lives, that are building and creating and grinding and finding faults.

• 2:19:51Jocko Willink?

  Finding faults not in others,

• 2:19:56Jocko Willink?

  but in yourselves.

• 2:20:00Jocko Willink?

  And thank you for crushing those faults by getting out there with discipline.

• 2:20:10Jocko Willink?

  And getting after it.

• 2:20:14Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:20:22Jocko Willink?

  Out.