How To Date: Taking it to the next level

Things are going well… So Elizabeth and Mel are taking it to the next level where they are getting just that little bit more serious. In this episode, Mel and Elizabeth look at exclusivity and commitment and what it takes to build a strong foundation for a lasting relationship. Plus: how a partner’s past plays into your future together. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:57Speaker 01

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• 1:16Speaker 02

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• 1:20Speaker 01

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• 1:27Elizabeth Day?

  How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.

• 1:52Elizabeth Day?

  And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers, where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes.

• 2:08Elizabeth Day?

  Hello, my darling Mel.

• 2:11Speaker 03

  Hello, gorgeous.

• 2:12Elizabeth Day?

  So we are six episodes in.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:16Elizabeth Day?

  Are we ready to take it to the next level is the question.

• 2:19Speaker 03

  I'm certainly ready to take it to the next level with you.

• 2:22Elizabeth Day?

  Well, thank you. What a relief. It has been such a journey of discovery so far. I've really loved it. I've loved talking to you. I've loved talking to our guests. Last week, we had the amazing La La La Let Me Explain, talking about red and green flags. And boy, we've had a few of those, haven't we?

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, yes.

• 2:43Elizabeth Day?

  But now we're at the stage where it's green flags all the way. And we have decided that we are ready to take it to the next level in what we hope to become a serious relationship.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:56Elizabeth Day?

  So Mel, do you think there is ever a hard and fast rule when it comes to timeframes? As to discerning when it's appropriate to take it to the next level?

• 3:07Speaker 03

  I would say definitely not a hard and fast rule. But I think you need to be very, very clear yourself about what that transition looks like between the situation ship, or we're just casually dating, through to we're in a serious relationship. I think so many couples muddle their way through this transition in a really clunky way. And end up in this place where they're starting out a relationship and they're not on an even keel. And I think it's so important to give yourself the gift of a really smart, clear conversation about the next stage of the relationship, if you want to have a positive relationship.

• 3:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I relate to so much of that. And I think what was happening is that I would kiss someone or go on a date with someone and then think, well, they seem nice enough. So obviously this is going to end up being a relationship. And actually, it doesn't need to be. And I think that if I look back at myself in my twenties, potentially there was part of me that was still conditioned to people please, where I thought, well, if this person wants to date me long term, then I should say yes. And then another part of me probably was comparing myself to my peers and feeling like, well, I want to have this because my friends have it, or I'm of an age now where I really should have it

• 4:34Elizabeth Day?

  because TikTok time is running out. And if I want to have children in my thirties, I've got to get the relationship in place in my twenties. And so all of that was going on in my head. What wasn't going on was the question, what do I want? And also, who am I? I don't think I took the time to understand who I was.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  And I think absolutely who am I is very important. But I think when we're talking about this topic, this taking it to the next stage, what do I want, I think is an even more important question. Because so often, like you've described there, we just respond to other people's needs and all the shoulds that rain down on us from our families, from the media, from Hollywood, from rom coms, you know, the shoulds. Therefore, if the music stops and there's someone standing in front of me, then that's the person I'm going to enter into a relationship with. But I'd love for our listeners to start thinking of that early phase of the the relationship where you're,

• 5:38Speaker 03

  you know, I like to think of it like dogs. You know how dogs sniff each other's bums?

• 5:44Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, that's what we do. Love where this is going. Okay. So you're advising our listeners just to sniff each other's bums?

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Metaphorically speaking, or physically speaking.

• 5:55Elizabeth Day?

  No judgment here.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Absolutely no kink shaming whatsoever. I love the way dogs do that. And I think that's what new couples do as well, is they're sussing each other out. And I think it's really important that as an individual in a new relationship, you keep coming back to, does it fit me? I'm assessing this potential partner to see if they are going to work for me in my life, not so much whether I measure up for them, that's their business.

• 6:25Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Because we can get so caught up on that.

• 6:28Elizabeth Day?

  That's so true. And actually, again, I really relate to that in a negative sense in that I would never have thought of it that way around. I would always have thought of it as if I am not right for them, there's some failing in me that I need to address. So let me attempt to shape shift. I should say to our lovely listeners that there's no guest on this episode because Mel and I were too greedy and wanted to to look at this topic all on our own because it is such an important one. And I think it's particularly interesting because of our joint experiences in dating, because when we met our husbands, we were both 39.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 7:07Elizabeth Day?

  And at that stage, for a cis hetero woman, the idea of timeframe comes with this added edge, which is if you do want to have a family, then you have to factor that in as well. So for any listeners who are in that position, what advice would you give them that they don't rush things that aren't right for them?

• 7:33Speaker 03

  It's it's a really complex area and I find it hard to give hard and fast advice about this. When I started my dating coaching practice, almost exclusively, this was the pool of clientele that I was working with. It was women in their late, mid to late 30s who were starting to feel that urgency. But I think if that woman can keep coming back to what do I need? And try not to be swayed by other people's expectations, whether that's this prospective partner or previous partners or family or society at large, you

• 8:12Speaker 03

  know, to come back to what is it that I need? And is this the right partner? If if it is that, you know, you're knocking on the the door of parenthood, is this the right partner? Is this the person I want to co-parent children with? And, you know, it it may not be that that's the person that you're in a relationship at the moment with. And that could be a really hard question to ask yourself. You know, maybe I've invested six months in this new relationship with this person.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  There's something niggling away, deep inside me, there's a, there's a little fear in there. And if I listen to it, I realise that I probably couldn't see myself parenting with this person. And being a parent is one of the most important things to me right now, then I've got to make a really hard decision. And that's hard, of course, because we have the whole sunk costs fallacy.

• 9:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  You know, and it's such an investment of your time, your time's so precious, particularly in your late 30s. It's a hard decision, but it's an important decision to make.

• 9:16Elizabeth Day?

  It is, and I would like to add to that, that there are so many things that you can do to mitigate risk. We are so fortunate that we live in a world where scientific advances have meant that the biological age for parenting, it can be advanced, you do have longer than you used to have, there are many different ways to parent. I went through a round of egg freezing in my late 30s because I wanted to have that assurance. I would say though, that sometimes that assurance can be a mythical one in that I didn't get that many eggs. It was, you know, it's, it, on, on one level, it's great to have these things at our disposal.

• 9:57Elizabeth Day?

  On another, it shouldn't detract from your ultimate focus, which as you say, in this particular example that we're talking about, is about finding someone that you feel comfortable building a family unit with.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And of course, on the same topic, but from a different perspective, I had a different experience. And of course, we were the same age, you and I, going into these relationships. And I didn't have the burning desire to be a mother like you did. It came later, and it wasn't till I was 42 that, you know, I ended up going down that path and going through IVF and, and ultimately having Maddie when I was 42. So I guess just as a message to our listeners there, that there are so many different paths that we can take to motherhood through fertility. I guess what this brings up is that it is so deeply important to people, men, women and everyone in between.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  You know, to actually take a moment to reflect on, if I'm in my mid to late 30s, is parenthood something that I want to be a part of my next decade? And if it is, what do I do about that? And it might feel a little like we're getting off topic, but I don't think we are, because this is one of those incredibly critical decision points that enter into the discussion.

• 11:19Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  When you're deciding, is this the right relationship?

• 11:23Elizabeth Day?

  And it's one of the things I get asked about the most. So I'm glad that we've had this discussion in our introductory chat. And now we're going to move on because as you know, we love a three-part structure here.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 11:40Elizabeth Day?

  We're moving on to three aspects of taking it to the next level. The first one is getting serious, the second one is compatibility, and the third is their past and your future. So let's start on part one, which is getting serious. We've already talked a little bit about timeframe, when you decide to take it to the next step. But I'm also interested in when you decide to quit.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:08Elizabeth Day?

  And that that sort of sunken cost fallacy that we touched on.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:12Elizabeth Day?

  What are some of the things that you think listeners should be looking for in terms of making the decision either way?

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Okay, couple of things to acknowledge here. One is that it's very common for partners to move at a different pace, particularly in that early phase. And this is a really good thing to be aware of because it can lead to so much awkwardness if you're not self-aware and socially aware. So what you need to be doing in that first period, you know, it might be three months, it might be six months, it might be a week, depending on how you move. But if we call it that phase one of the relationship where things are still ill-defined, you know, maybe you're not exclusive, maybe you haven't even talked about whether you're exclusive or not,

• 13:00Speaker 03

  things are still unsaid, you're just sniffing each other's bums. During this time, one partner may be moving toward that goalpost of the chat much more quickly than the other. So you might be in a position where you're the one pacing really fast, or you might be the one lagging behind. I think it's really helpful to call that out. And, you know, you can use humour in these kind of conversations. I'm a huge one for bringing humour into awkward conversations and actually calling it out for what it is. You know, something I used to do when I was internet dating was one of the first things I'd do when I'd sit down with my date was say, isn't this hilarious?

• 13:44Speaker 03

  We've just met online and now we're meeting for the first time. I'm nervous. Are you nervous? And it would just break the ice and we'd both laugh at the thing, you know? The situation that we're both in, that we've put ourselves in and isn't it awkward? Ha ha, ice is broken. Let's have a drink. You can bring that into this as well as you're leading up to the chat. And I put that in capital letters, FYI, is calling out the awkwardness or the lack of, um, what would you call it?

• 14:19Elizabeth Day?

  Ease, synchronicity.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  Synchronicity, perfect. That's the perfect word. Because if one person arrives there before the other and they don't realise that the other person isn't there yet and they try to have the chat, it can be overwhelming for the other person. You really need to read the room here. And a good way to do that is by dropping out little hints or little pebbles to see how the person responds. So let's say you are the person who's moving a little bit more quickly than your partner.

• 14:54Elizabeth Day?

  I feel like you're directly staring into my soul. I feel personally attacked and you're completely bang on. We'll get on to that in a second. So yes, let's say hypothetically that you are the one.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Let's say your name's, I don't know, Liz.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Yes, and you're really wanting to have the chat. What could you do? What little questions could you ask? Or what pebbles could you throw? So this is where I think it's good to go back to something we talked about in relation to the first date, which was those open-ended questions. So this is not putting your partner on the spot or, you know, trying to tie them down to something really, really confronting, but exploring things together. This is tapping into your curiosity again. So you might ask a question like, you know, when you, when you think about us in a couple of years, what does it look like?

• 15:48Elizabeth Day?

  Love that.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Is there even an us? Do they cringe when you say the word us? I mean, that would be very telling in itself, be a bit awkward, but very telling. So I guess this is about dipping your toe in the water. And, you know, I sort of, when it comes to building confidence in different areas of life, I often talk about expanding the comfort zone rather than jumping out of it. And I don't really believe about jumping out of your comfort zone into that anxiety zone. I don't think it achieves much. So what if you were to just expand the comfort zone by asking some of those open questions to just start gently gathering information about their perspective? And this is all about mitigating risk, really,

• 16:34Speaker 03

  ensuring that when you do initiate having the chat, that they're going to be receptive and it's going to be a soft place to land.

• 16:43Elizabeth Day?

  So many things that I absolutely adore about everything you've just said there. Expanding your comfort zone rather than leaping out of it into restless anxiety is so key. And the open-endedness of those questions, I mean, at worst, what you end up with is an interesting conversation. And that's actually a wonderful place to be, to get into the practice of having conversations with someone who, hopefully, if they are worthy of you, will end up as your long-term partner. That in and of itself is a, is a great exercise. The other thing that I like about it is that we are so often.

• 17:22Elizabeth Day?

  Sold this contradictory myth. On the one hand, we need to know who we are and what we want and what we're worth, and we need to stake our claim to it and say, listen, if you're not with the programme, then you're out of my life and be this kind of badass Samantha Jones-esque figure. And this goes for someone of any gender. And then on the flip side of that, if you've had any experience of dating emotionally unavailable individuals, you will be only too aware of the danger of putting them off by being quote unquote, too much,

• 18:01Elizabeth Day?

  or coming on too strong. And so then you get into this situation of game playing where you avoid saying, where do you see us in two years? You avoid saying, do you see us going on holiday even? You avoid putting any pressure or any demands on this other person because they have made it so clear that commitment freaks them out. And yes, I do have experience of this.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Yes, me too.

• 18:26Elizabeth Day?

  And it's emotional fuckquiddage of the highest order.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:31Elizabeth Day?

  So the chat, what is the chat? Is the chat, well, this is something our listeners need to ask themselves, isn't it? What is it that you want to achieve from the chat? Is it exclusivity? Is it having a very conventional notion of boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend? Or is it something else, like an exploration of polyamory? How would you suggest we determine which of those parameters is important for us?

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Right. And that is the starting point, isn't it? Deciding what we want. Because this is all about us as an individual, because you're not really a couple yet. This is about as this individual with a sense of self, what does this self need in this relationship? So doing a bit of self exploration is really important here, whether that's journaling or talking to a trusted friend or, you know, just meditating on it. Getting clear about what do I want out of this relationship at this phase in my life? Maybe it is about exploring something new. Maybe it's about expanding your beliefs about what relationships

• 19:43Speaker 03

  are. Maybe you get a sense that this partner is someone you could explore that with. So, you know, even if, you know, you, you spend a bit of time writing a letter to yourself about this next relationship you go into, self, is going to involve this, these opportunities for exploration. You know, maybe it's not the traditional format of a relationship. But what is important is that you're clear on what you want.

• 20:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:12Elizabeth Day?

  And actually, that's something I'd love to talk to you about, is that idea of dating safety and consent, and how aware we should be of these topics at this time.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Oh, it's such an important topic and I'm so glad that you've introduced it here. It needs to be completely top of mind. You know, these days, we're talking about enthusiastic, continuous consent. You know, it's so much more than just saying yes. And I think it's so much more than just in the sexual realm as well. You know, I think consent to move to the next stage of the relationship is also really important to have some agency over. But when it comes to the sexual side of consent, I think this is a really important one for, for listeners to be talking to each other about, not just with your partner, but with friends and having this conversation,

• 21:07Speaker 03

  getting comfortable with the language around consent. Because we haven't grown up having language around consent, have we? You know, certainly people have, you know, sort of Gen Y and Gen X, yeah. Um, God help the boomers. I mean, you know, there was certainly none of it there. So I think starting to get comfortable with language around, I'm comfortable with this, I'm not comfortable with this. And for people who are initiating, are you comfortable with this? Are you still comfortable with this? Let's make that language really normal. Because it's, it can be so sexy.

• 21:47Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  And that's something new that we need to introduce.

• 21:54Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 22:39Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 22:55Elizabeth Day?

  Exclusivity, that idea of asking someone to be your partner. And let's talk about a sort of conventional relationship, where we've decided that actually, we're going to be faithful to each other.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  I think there's something that feels a bit immature about it.

• 23:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Like, I can remember being in primary school and boys saying to me, "Will you go with me, Mel?"

• 23:25Elizabeth Day?

  You don't.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  And that was a definitive question with a definitive answer. And there you go. There's a line in the sand. We weren't girlfriend and boyfriend, and now we are.

• 23:35Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  So, having that conversation as an adult now, for me, feels a little bit like an immature school child thing to kind of say.

• 23:46Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  So there's a re-education around that as well.

• 23:50Elizabeth Day?

  I have learnt a lot from, I'm going to mention a rival reality TV programme here, Mel, I hope you don't mind, which is Love Island.

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:58Elizabeth Day?

  I've learnt a lot about how younger generations conceive of exclusivity and being boyfriend-girlfriend, and how, or girlfriend-girlfriend-boyfriend-boyfriend, or however you identify. And how many stages there are to it.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:12Elizabeth Day?

  Which I'm not used to as a forty six year old woman.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:17Elizabeth Day?

  That notion that you can be seeing multiple people.

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 24:21Elizabeth Day?

  Then you decide that you go exclusive, so you're not seeing other people. Then after that, you might decide to be in a relationship.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:29Elizabeth Day?

  Did you know that?

• 24:30Speaker 03

  I've not heard that extra phase in the middle.

• 24:32Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Okay, so we're just, so there's exclusivity that might come before we're in a relationship.

• 24:39Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 24:41Elizabeth Day?

  It's just interesting that I think different age groups will potentially have different approaches. And so if you are in an age gap relationship, for instance. Again, that might have an impact on how it's perceived. And again, that's when you bring in your male shilling, open ended questions.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Or you do what my Gareth did. Can I share how he?

• 25:01Elizabeth Day?

  Please.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  Signposted that we were moving to the next phase. He demonstrated it for me behaviourally. And as a behavioural scientist, I really respected this. So we were at lunch. What he did was he got up from the table, pulled out his phone, made a phone call. And I thought, what's going on with this guy? How weird. We're midway through this lovely lunch, not into this at all. Anyway, he came back and he sat down and I said, what was that about? And he said, oh, I'm just ending it with all the girls that I've been sleeping with.

• 25:38Elizabeth Day?

  My gosh.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  And he, he, I don't know if there really were six or seven, but.

• 25:45Elizabeth Day?

  That's amazing.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  The impression that that's what he was doing. He had gotten to the point where in his mind, he didn't communicate it with me. But in his mind, he got to the point at that lunch where he realised that he only wanted to be in a relationship with me.

• 26:00Elizabeth Day?

  That's such a baller move.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. I guess it was, yeah.

• 26:07Elizabeth Day?

  Were there any other behavioural changes or that was the main one?

• 26:10Speaker 03

  That was the main one. It was, it was pretty direct and strong and decisive.

• 26:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:18Elizabeth Day?

  Did you then have to break off with all of the men you were sleeping with?

• 26:20Speaker 03

  No, I wasn't sleeping with anyone. I'd like to say that I was, but I really wasn't.

• 26:25Elizabeth Day?

  No, because that would be game playing, Mel. So we don't have to do that.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 26:28Elizabeth Day?

  That's amazing. What a story. Okay. We've spoken about getting serious and the timeframe and what commitment means. Now let's move on to the second part, which is compatibility.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:39Elizabeth Day?

  Let's discuss compatibility in all of its facets. Let's start with a big one. Let's start with sexual compatibility.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:47Elizabeth Day?

  I'm very interested in sexual compatibility because I sometimes think that it can obscure the emotional truth.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:55Elizabeth Day?

  In that I have been sexually compatible with many, many, many partners. Not that many, with some partners. And that has made me think that there's more there than there actually is. And it's one of those things that in those instances, although we never got far along enough the line to know, I imagine probably would have fizzled out, but the emotional compatibility wasn't there. But sometimes I think, I think it can be really confusing. And sometimes like chemistry, as we discussed in a previous episode, sexual compatibility can build, can't it?

• 27:32Speaker 03

  It absolutely can. And I think you make a really good point in that sexual compatibility can mask deficits in other areas. Have you heard the expression drowning in dick sand?

• 27:46Speaker 03

  I think that's what you're talking about.

• 27:48Elizabeth Day?

  No, no, it used to be an expression that I use every single day.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  You must take it and adopt it.

• 27:53Elizabeth Day?

  Drowning in dick sand. I love a pun as well.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, okay.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  That's what it is.

• 27:58Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  And I've definitely seen this with friends and I'm sure I've been drowning in it myself. Because it can become all encompassing and particularly for women, because we have oxytocin, don't we? This, it's a lovely hormone. It helps us bond with friends and it's the love hormone. It makes us feel good, but. I'm gonna say unfortunately, every time we have an orgasm, we release oxytocin. And it confuses us because we think that the person who was the object of the orgasm, therefore, needs to be our mate for life.

• 28:33Elizabeth Day?

  And is that a female specific thing?

• 28:35Speaker 03

  It is.

• 28:36Elizabeth Day?

  God, that's annoying.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  It's so annoying.

• 28:39Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, great, but sometimes, but.

• 28:41Speaker 03

  Great if you're in a committed long-term relationship, but if you're just having sex with someone, that's why it can be so confusing, I think, for many women having casual sex.

• 28:52Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Because every time we do it, part of our old lizard brain says, this is your partner for life.

• 28:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  Even when it's wildly inappropriate.

• 29:02Elizabeth Day?

  Even when you're just drowning in dick sand.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 29:05Elizabeth Day?

  So pull yourself out of that dick sand.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  And of course, what we know about quicksand is it's impossible to get out of.

• 29:11Elizabeth Day?

  I'm trying to think, I'm wasting a lot of time trying to think about.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Visualizing it?

• 29:14Elizabeth Day?

  Visualizing it, but also trying to think of an equivalent for a vagina, like a vag badge.

• 29:18Speaker 03

  It's probably.

• 29:20Elizabeth Day?

  A vag badge.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  I just think clit sand.

• 29:23Elizabeth Day?

  Clit sand.

• 29:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:25Elizabeth Day?

  And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we pay her the big bucks. This is Mel Schilling. Clit sand, okay.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:31Elizabeth Day?

  So sexual, but sexual compatibility, again, how much should it factor into this stage? Into whether we decide to take this forward?

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Well, it is part of this discussion. If we were to think about all of the data points that we're gathering. So during the bum sniffing stage, you are gathering data points about compatibility. One of them will be your sexual compatibility. Because let's be honest, it is one of the long-term ingredients in a relationship, isn't it? It varies so much from couple to couple. And again, that issue of pace comes into it as well. You know, depending on each partner's sexual experience and maybe trauma, they're gonna have different paces. So I think, you know, it's really important to be very open-minded at this phase in terms of how that compatibility is going, because it's still early days.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  You know, you may not have established your rhythm yet as a couple, pun intended. You are still figuring it out. But what I would say at this phase is if there is very little sexual compatibility, or if you're finding you're not. Attracted to your partner sexually. If you're not desiring them on a sexual level, then it's got to start throwing up some pretty big questions for you about the longevity of this relationship.

• 30:57Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, it's not black and white. You know, I'm not saying that there has to be sexual chemistry in order for the relationship to go the distance. Because as we know, some relationships have very minimal sexual elements to them or none at all. So again, it's going to come back to that personal preference. What do I need?

• 31:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  I need in this relationship in order for it to be satisfying for me.

• 31:23Elizabeth Day?

  And some people also might not feel amazingly sexually compatible with their partner, but want a partnership and look for sexual compatibility outside of that partnership with the full consent of both individuals.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:39Elizabeth Day?

  And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about conversation. Do you think at these relatively early stages, sexual compatibility should be part of our conversation?

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:51Elizabeth Day?

  Do you, okay, because as a repressed British person, that sounds really awkward to me.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Let me be the Aussie and take over here because yes, yes, yes. We do need to talk about sex because one of the sexiest organs we have is our.

• 32:05Elizabeth Day?

  Brain.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And this is where you can start establishing a greater depth of sexual compatibility and just sexual enjoyment is through talking about it. You know, whether that's talking about the things you'd like to do together, whether it's talking about your sexual history, your ideas about, you know, where you could potentially take things. These are the building blocks of a really good, sustainable sexual relationship. If it's just physical and it's just what physically happens in the bedroom and then you never talk about it outside of that, then there's really nowhere for it to go. How's it going to grow? You know, I think you've got to add fuel to that fire. And the way to do that is through conversation.

• 32:52Elizabeth Day?

  And I think if you start it earlier. It becomes easier than for that just to be integrated into your relationship longer term. So again, is there an open ended conversational question that we could use

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:04Elizabeth Day?

  in this scenario?

• 33:06Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And this is a great place to use those open questions. You know, I mean, let's, let's say you're, you're starting to get comfortable with this person and you're thinking, you know, I'd like to do more. What if you ask them something like, tell me about your most exciting sexual fantasy?

• 33:25Elizabeth Day?

  Great. Okay. Now, we spoke a little bit about exclusivity. And because we're talking about sexual compatibility now, I wonder if we can bring in micro cheating, because we're all aware, if we've had a clear conversation with someone who we want to be our romantic partner, about what our boundaries are, and one of those boundaries is, I don't want you to have sex with other people. That's a clear one.

• 33:50Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 33:50Elizabeth Day?

  What is micro cheating?

• 33:53Speaker 03

  So micro cheating are those small, seemingly insignificant behaviours that are based on deception. And so deception is the key here. The behaviour itself, not necessarily. But it's when you're doing things in secret that you wouldn't want your partner to know about. So some examples that I've seen are saving somebody else's name in your phone under a pseudonym. Because the idea of your partner seeing that person's texts pop up on your phone would be uncomfortable. That's a sign. Or not telling your partner who you're following on social media, not showing them, for example, because you maybe want to have some, some private chats with someone.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  You need to ask yourself the question, why don't you want your partner to see this? So it's not the act of who you're following, that's fine, but the fact that you're wanting to conceal that from your partner. So this is really about a little bit of emotional cheating, you could say. But really what it comes back to at its essence is the deception.

• 35:02Elizabeth Day?

  By the way, before we started recording, Mel casually said that she is credited with inventing the term micro cheating.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:10Elizabeth Day?

  So we're extremely thrilled to have the originator of that term in the studio with us. I think that's so interesting because there could be two things going on. One is that you are concealing things from your partner because you want to pursue some sort of illicit flirtation. The other is that your partner has unrealistic or jealous or borderline dangerous tendencies to want to monitor everything that you're doing.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:36Elizabeth Day?

  So either way, the concealment is a red flag.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  Right. And that's a really good point. Why are you concealing it? Is it about you or is it about them?

• 35:48Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about the more emotional sense of compatibility. Shared life goals and values and also a bit of the practicality here. You know, where do you want to live? How do you want to live? Again, these are crucial, I would imagine, at this stage.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I think of compatibility with three prongs, and I know you love a three-point discussion.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Values, lifestyle preferences and deal breakers.

• 36:16Elizabeth Day?

  Great.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  So if we start with values, and I know we've talked about values a lot in this podcast because it's so critical. In fact, all of the research says that one of the highest predictors of compatibility is shared values. Your values are really what get you out of bed in the morning and they're the things that define what a good life means to you. So let's say for you, a good life is all about health and fitness. And let's say for me, it's about being active and being adventurous, then those are going to go really well together. But let's say your highest value is family and let's say mine is freedom.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  They may or may not go too well together, depending on how they're going to be enacted. So that's why this next layer becomes really important, which is lifestyle preferences, which are really values in action. How you actually behave on a day-to-day basis to move toward the living of those values. And really, that's what, you know, a good life is all about, you know, being aligned with your values. Being able to get up in the morning and say to yourself, the things that are really, really important to me today are going to drive how I behave, what I say and do and the decisions I make. So when you can find a partner who has similar things that drive them to get out of bed in the morning

• 37:45Speaker 03

  and that drive them to want to actually take decisions and action in their life, then you're going to be moving towards similar things and you're going to have that synergy.

• 37:56Elizabeth Day?

  And then the deal breakers, that's just something for you to work out.

• 38:00Speaker 03

  Deal breakers, I think, need to come back to values. A genuine deal breaker is really something that would be against your values.

• 38:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, not whether someone's a petite brunette.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 38:15Elizabeth Day?

  Note to every, every single male maths contestant.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly. It would be more like someone who disrespects others. There's your deal breaker.

• 38:27Elizabeth Day?

  Values, lifestyle, love that idea of lifestyle preferences being values in action and deal breakers. Oh, so good, Mel.

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• 39:44Elizabeth Day?

  From one tripartite structure to the next, the third part of this episode is dealing with their past and your future. And what we mean by that is the emotional character that has been shaped by your partner's past and what they bring into the relationship. A less kind way of saying it is emotional baggage.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:09Elizabeth Day?

  And particularly if you are a slightly older data, and I would put myself in that category, there are varying degrees of emotional consideration to bring into play here. I, for instance, am a stepmother of three, and that was something that I really, really had to consider carefully because it is such a complicated and, yes, unbelievably rewarding and fulfilling relationship. But I think that's something that one has to consider. And then there's also their past relationships. I historically have been a jealous person, and I know that that came from my own insecurity. But how do we deal with any kind of jealousy that might surround our partner's past?

• 40:56Speaker 03

  You know what, when things rear their ugly head, like jealousy, you can either take action that will push your partner away from you or bring them closer. So, you know, I think we've all done those behaviours that push our partner away when we feel jealous. You know, a very natural way to respond is to become clingy or to get defensive or to get narky about, you know, previous partners. But there are things that you can do that will bring them closer. And that is opening up, exploring what your fear is with your partner and being vulnerable.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  And that's the harder road to take because it really takes some guts to open up like that. But being able to say to your partner, I'm actually feeling a little bit fragile at the moment. Um, I know this is irrational, but I feel some fear with you relating to that person. It makes me feel jealous and I don't like that that's coming up for me.

• 42:00Elizabeth Day?

  That is so good, Mel.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  I've never done it.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Don't praise me.

• 42:06Elizabeth Day?

  That is such a good phrase to use.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:10Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever felt jealous then?

• 42:12Speaker 03

  I'm not a jealous person.

• 42:14Elizabeth Day?

  You're just the perfect woman. Genuinely, I'm. Sorry, Jocelyn.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  I don't. And I've got to say that, that my Gareth doesn't experience jealousy either. You know, generally speaking, we are both, I guess we're both quite securely attached. You know, to talk about attachment theory again.

• 42:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  But I think early in our relationship, it, it did show its head. But as, you know, the relationship has progressed, it's taken a while to get there, but that's where we are now.

• 42:42Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I think that's a really important thing to make clear is that hopefully this relationship that you find yourself in is going to grow and you are going to spend time together. And actually, the more that you know each other, the more secure you will feel because you are asking these lovely, open-ended questions that Mel has given you the vocabulary for. And you are having these intimate conversations and that develops. Security and safety and all of the good stuff. And I also want to say that sometimes jealousy can be so toxic that you just don't even want to go there. But it's important to understand how the person you're with has been shaped and what their hopes and fears were

• 43:26Elizabeth Day?

  and what their values are because of what they've learnt from past relationships. So I also wanted to say that to any listener who's struggling with it right now, it won't always be this way.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  Yes, and it is important to be able to sit together and examine those past lives. You know, it is really important, but it doesn't have to happen at this point. And I think buying a bit of time, that's really wise and shows real self-awareness. And I think for our listeners to take that on board is really important. You know, there's no rule that says you have to open up your baggage and show what's inside straight away. But a bit of meta-communication, so that is communicating about your communication can be really helpful here. So maybe saying to your partner, there's lots that I'd love to talk to you about when I'm ready at the moment, but I look forward to a time when we can do that together.

• 44:21Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, okay. And also just on that note, because I know we touched on co-parenting. A similar sort of thing, if you're in a situation right now where you're deciding whether to take it to the next level with someone who has children, or maybe you have children in this scenario. I actually think the wisest course of action is to work out what your relationship is, just the two of you first. And for me and Justin, that was six months, that it was six months before I met his kids. And that was appropriate for us. You know, they're the most important people in my partner's life. So we need to know where we stand before we bring them in.

• 45:02Elizabeth Day?

  And so I think that's another thing just to bear in mind, that you don't have to have all of the answers. At once, you just need to be willing to try and to be open to what might come at this particular stage.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  Yes, and I think there can be a bit of a chicken and egg situation here. Do I introduce my partner to my kids in order to ascertain whether I want the long term relationship with him or her? Or do I have the chat with my partner to establish that it's a it's a long term relationship before I introduce them to my kids? And that's a very personal decision.

• 45:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, okay, well, goodness, we didn't need a guest today, did we?

• 45:45Speaker 03

  We've only just got started. We're not at the end already, are we?

• 45:48Elizabeth Day?

  We are at the end already.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 45:51Elizabeth Day?

  But not of the pod class.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 45:53Elizabeth Day?

  And not of the relationship.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Good.

• 45:55Elizabeth Day?

  Because next episode, well, actually, next episode, we're dealing with rejection and heartbreak.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Oh, dear.

• 46:00Elizabeth Day?

  So we are dealing with endings next episode, but in a really healthy way. And I know that it's something that a lot of people will be turning to this pod class for, because it's one of the hardest, hardest things, but we're going to help you through it. So rejection and heartbreak is next week. And Mel, let's leave our listeners with one of your wonderful exercises. What would you like them to do this week?

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Well, this little activity is going to walk you through your values, your lifestyle preferences and your deal breakers. And by going through this activity, it'll help you get real clarity about whether this is a relationship that you're wanting to take to the next level. Use it as a bit like a checklist. What you're going to do is identify your own values and your partner's values and the degree to which you think they are aligned. So for example, if your highest value is honesty and your partner's highest value is integrity, then those are probably quite nicely aligned. And what does it mean if you have very different high values? What if one person's is family and the others is freedom?

• 47:09Speaker 03

  What does that mean? So this will just help get real clarity as a starting point for this discussion. Because remember, the the aim here is to have shared values or compatible values.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Then the next piece is the lifestyle preferences. So this is the way you like to live your values, if you like. Really looking at the alignment between the way your partner lives their life and the way you live yours. Where are the similarities? Where are the differences? Where are the gaps? And also, where are the opportunities for growth for both of you in there? And then finally, the deal breakers. I mean, obviously, where there are real clashes of values, this is where you need to have a serious conversation with yourself firstly, about is this something you can tolerate or even want in your relationship? And if so, how are you going to make that work?

• 48:00Elizabeth Day?

  Fantastic. This week has been an absolute joy. I've loved learning from you yet again, Mel. I wish I'd had you in the early days of every single relationship I've ever been in. It could have been a really functional throuple.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  No point in having regrets. We can still do it now.

• 48:18Elizabeth Day?

  You heard it here first, listeners.

• 48:23Elizabeth Day?

  How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge? Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments. Things like, I will communicate clearly and with kindness. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's thepodclass.co.uk. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

• 49:06Elizabeth Day?

  Please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might also want to listen. And who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.