#2418 - Chris Williamson

Chris Williamson is a podcaster, YouTuber, and host of the "Modern Wisdom" podcast. See him live on his "Mostly Wise" tour. https://chriswillx.com/modernwisdom Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Buy 1 Get 1 Free Trucker Hat with code ROGAN at https://happydad.com Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Feel a bit less shit about myself, just stave off death.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, doesn't it do something for your mind? Doesn't it help you?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course it does, but when you compare it with life and death, there's a little bit of a difference.

• 0:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's definitely a difference, but just for mental health, that's the main reason to do it for me. It's mental health. It's such a difference between not doing it and doing it. Like, two different, totally different people. You got notes on that thing or something?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Always.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  You gotta get one of these babies, little kickstand jammies. Those are shit.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Oh, sexy, sexy, sexy.

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  All right, all right.

• 0:54Joe Rogan?

  Encourages you to waste your time watching YouTube videos.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, without having to hold it.

• 0:58Joe Rogan?

  Because it props up, yeah.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:00Joe Rogan?

  You feel like a fool, sitting there staring at your camera, holding it in your hand. I always said, like, if there was a drug that made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody'd be like, "Oh, my God, this is really a problem in this country. People are just staring at their hands."

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Well, we looked at that last time that we were on. We had the photo of that guy, that artist, that had taken images of people looking at their phones.

• 1:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes, with no phone in their hand.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  And then removed the phones.

• 1:24Joe Rogan?

  It's such a crazy thing we're doing. And now, of course, there's AR glasses that are eventually going to put whatever TikTok feed in, like, one eye, where you're watching someone in the other eye.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Have you ever tried those?

• 1:36Joe Rogan?

  I've messed around with them a little bit. Zuck was here, and he let me try the new ones that haven't been released yet. They were really interesting. And you move a cursor around with your eyeballs, and you can do things with your fingers. You can pinch and spread things and stuff with your fingers and play games with your fingers. You can, like, it's not quite as responsive as you'd like it to be, but it's very beta. You know?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 2:02Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty cool.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  It is pretty cool.

• 2:04Joe Rogan?

  But also, we're losing humanity. We're gonna, we're gonna be taken in. We're gonna incorporate with the machine.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't know. I think a lot of people feel like that would be a better version of the life that they have. And that's the saddest thing, that people of older generations look at young guys and girls and how much time they spend online. And they think, this is ridiculous. Why are they caring so much about what is occurring on the internet? But they don't realize, people spend more time on screens than they do asleep. So the digital world is the real world for these people. Like, the digital world is more real than the real world is.

• 2:42Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, I didn't think of it that way. There are a lot of people that do spend more time on screens than they do asleep. That's really common. I like to balance that out. I like to spend half as much time on my phone as I do asleep.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Well, that would be a good way to enforce it, right? You have to, you log how much sleep time you've had.

• 3:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so I'm gonna start sleeping 12 hours a day.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  So I can spend six times.

• 3:07Joe Rogan?

  Six hours wasting. It's quite a resource, if you think about it. Like, a lack of an appreciation of your resource. Because the resource of your time and your attention, it's very valuable. And you can convert it into all sorts of amazing skills and information and, you know, knowledge and change your whole life. Or, you could just stare at stupid shit all day long.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  It's so compelling, though, dude. It's been designed by the most profitable companies on the planet with the smartest behavioral scientists in history. Like, it's an unfair fight. It really is an unfair fight. And that's why.

• 3:45Joe Rogan?

  Sorta. You could not do it, though.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Oh, you need to lean in. But it's like, there is way more willpower you need to use in order to be able to not than like, just whatever the course of natural human history is or natural human behavior. It's so easy to... Or, alternatively, you could dye the Venice River green.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  That's what happens when you don't have enough phone battery.

• 4:11Joe Rogan?

  I said that to Chris today, Greta Thunberg, she dyed the Venice canals green to protest, what, a lack of action and climate change?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, pullback, a call to pullback carbon fuel in Europe. And they didn't just do it in Venice, they did it in 10 cities around Italy. But Venice has obviously got this gorgeous waterway, it's an entire city built on water.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Bro.

• 4:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's hard to see how ugly it is. Jamie, I could send you a video of it, because I sent Chris a video. It's, you know, it's just like, how much attention do you need, lady? Okay, stop.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Sky News Australia refers to her as a Swedish Doom Goblin.

• 5:01Joe Rogan?

  Sky News is the one that's weirdly pro-Republican American politics.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Super right wing.

• 5:07Joe Rogan?

  It's like, who's funding that? There's no way that there's that much of an appetite in Australia for American politics. So that's what it looks like. That's disgusting. I was there this summer, it's fucking beautiful. It's so, Venice is so gorgeous and so ancient and so interesting. And to have this self-important twat pour a bunch of green dye into that water, you should go to jail for that. Like, you're ruining this experience for thousands and thousands of people, not just the ones who live in that amazing place, but the ones who get to visit. I mean, someone figured out a way to make a whole city by shoving pylons into the ground,

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  and they did it a long time ago. It's all wood. The whole city is stacked up on wood. They take these wood poles, they shove them into the ground. It's a specific type of wood that doesn't rot when it gets wet and waterlogged, it actually hardens. I forget what kind of wood it is. I watched this whole thing on it. But... I mean, it's very stable. I mean, sometimes they get some flooding, like one time we were there and like the lobby of this place was flooded. It does flood. But it's also, it's so fucking beautiful and the architecture is so amazing. It's such a gorgeous place. And it just relaxes you like instantly when you're there, like wow, I just want to have a espresso and eat some pasta and just chill out.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  I went last summer. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

• 6:35Joe Rogan?

  And this fucking dummy decides to just pour green dye. And how much green dye did you put in there? And what kind of an effect is that gonna have on life?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  So they claimed that it was environmentally safe, rah rah. I don't know how environmentally safe anything of that green color can be. Uh, but yeah, what was it? Forty-eight hour ban and a hundred and seventy dollar fine.

• 6:55Joe Rogan?

  That's it?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 6:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow. I should, you should go to jail for a night.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  I think about this a lot, man. The, um, in some ways I understand why the rhetoric gets more and more inflammatory. So if you care about an issue, if you really, really think that this issue is important.

• 7:15Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And people don't listen, you start to shout a bit louder.

• 7:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  And then you shout a bit louder, and then you shout a bit louder.

• 7:22Joe Rogan?

  The British are coming.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  The British are coming. You know who first said that?

• 7:25Joe Rogan?

  Wasn't Paul Revere?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Bonnie Blue.

• 7:27Joe Rogan?

  Who's that?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  She is the lady that slept with a thousand and fifty-seven men in a day.

• 7:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that poor lady.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, so, people don't listen. Did you ever see, uh, Don't Look Up, that movie on Netflix?

• 7:39Joe Rogan?

  That's very funny, by the way. I missed that joke because I didn't know.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Jamie got it.

• 7:42Joe Rogan?

  Who that was.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Jamie got it from over there, even with a toothpick.

• 7:46Joe Rogan?

  Kind of proud that I can't recognize her name though, honestly. I'll take that.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  It's probably a good sign. Um, people don't, so, uh, Don't Look Up, that film with Leonardo DiCaprio a couple of years ago. You remember, it was like an asteroid coming in?

• 7:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a funny movie, right?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Kind of like half funny, but kind of, it's supposed to be a comment on the impending doom of climate change.

• 8:07Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change, your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone. It's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill, and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com. The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month.

• 8:52Joe Rogan?

  Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe rogen.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/rogen for a free trial.

• 9:35Joe Rogan?

  And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by The Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis.

• 10:20Joe Rogan?

  The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Nobody's listening, right?

• 10:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're not correct. That's the problem. You know, who are those two gentlemen that we had in recently, Jamie? The guy from MIT and the other guy from, was he from Yale or Stanford? Where was he from? Anyway, these two brilliant scientists who have analyzed the data. And one of them was going over the actual, the understanding, the equations that you would need to understand in order to really be able to calculate what is having an effect on the climate and what is, how many different factors there are? And all of them working synergistically in some weird, unexplainable way. And then the cold, hard reality of climate data over the past X amount of millions of

• 11:08Joe Rogan?

  years, where it's always done this glaciation and then the glaciers, they recede and then you get higher ocean levels. It's like constant. Every 12,500 plus years goes up and down and up and down and it never stays static, ever. It's never static. And the real fear is not global warming. The real fear is global cooling.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Why?

• 11:32Joe Rogan?

  Global cooling kills everything. And we got that close at one point in history to having such a low oxygen level at this point, on this planet and such a low carbon dioxide level because there was no plant food, right? That these fucking plants almost died. We almost lost all life on this planet. We've gone like a few degrees from that happening. This is, the glaciers are fucking scary. Ice ages are scary. When it gets warm, you just move. And I know that sucks if you're living in a city of 20 million people, but it hasn't happened yet and they've been talking about it forever.

• 12:12Joe Rogan?

  That fucking stupid movie, An Inconvenient Truth, was wrong about everything. He should have to give back every fucking penny he made from that movie. You were wrong about everything. You scared the shit out of everybody and you were 100% wrong.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  One of the problems I think people have is if you really care about something and you're convinced, whether your conviction is incorrect or not, you're convinced by it. So what you do, you say a thing, people don't listen.

• 12:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Say it a bit louder, people still don't listen.

• 12:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Say it a bit louder again, people still aren't listening. And the problem is, it's a misunderstanding about what

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Compels and convinces other humans. What we think is if people aren't listening, if I shout louder, they're going to pay attention. What we don't realize is that actually turns everybody off. Because if you just see someone throwing soup over a Van Gogh painting, turning the canals of Venice green, gluing themselves to the M25 in London and stopping people from being able to get to work, like it gets attention, but you're not looking for attention, you're looking for conviction. You're trying to compel people to believe the thing that you believe. And I think that it does the opposite. And I understand why it's so seductive, because you think making, it's cool to your own side to do something flaming sword wielding truth teller, I'm going to charge through and look

• 13:33Speaker 01

  at how cool it is. But making somebody feel stupid or embarrassed or inconvenienced or upset is a really bad way to change minds. So I think if people really care about changing minds, they need to realize, and assuming that they think that they're correct, they need to realize that like intellectual chasm from where they are and where other people are. And you go, okay, I'm going to take you one step at a time. So even if you were to accept that the science and all of the stuff that the climate change people believe in is accurate, I still think that the strategies that they're using aren't going to be effective, because I think it turns more people off.

• 14:10Joe Rogan?

  Right. They're scolding. They're shrieking, scolding, and they're not the type of people that you want to talk to, so you avoid them. Ho, ho.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Looking down from on high, looking down from on high. Yeah, it's my British heritage. It doesn't cause you to feel inclined to support them.

• 14:30Joe Rogan?

  The opposite. It causes you to want to burn tires. I want to buy spray paint and fucking hairspray and just blow it by my car.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Have you heard of the Cassandra complex? Do you know what this is?

• 14:39Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Fucking brilliant, dude. So in ancient Greek mythology, Cassandra is given the gift of being able to see the future by Apollo. And then she rejects his advances. So he curses her and he says that for the rest of time, you're still going to be able to see the future, but people aren't going to believe you. So she foresees the downfall of Troy. She warns everybody, people don't listen, Troy burns anyway. And it's basically being right, but early. So Rachel Carson, she wrote that book Silence Spring, 1962. It's about DDT, environmental epidemics.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  She gets mocked by scientists, castigated by everybody, but her work led to the banning of DDT.

• 15:23Joe Rogan?

  And what year was this?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  1962.

• 15:25Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Ignace Samuelwise, like 1840s, he realizes that doctors are transmitting childbed fever from corpses to mothers because they're not washing their hands.

• 15:37Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  So he begs his colleagues to start adopting hand washing and he gets mocked by academia. He dies in an asylum. He dies in an asylum, that's how badly he's treated. Germ theory of disease gets, a couple of decades later, gets proven. Edward Snowden, who you've spoken to.

• 15:54Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Like, some people saw him as a traitor, some people saw him as a truth teller, but I think everybody had a bit of, really, is that what's going on? A few years later, it turns out, yep, the government are spying on you.

• 16:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  And this Cassandra complex, so if somebody ever says, I'm a Cassandra, I'm feeling like Cassandra today.

• 16:11Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  I foresee this thing, you don't, you're not listening to me, it's a big deal. And the problem is, the difference between somebody being a righteous Cassandra with the ability to see the future and just being a crazy person who's been convinced by bad data or like perverse incentives, it's very hard to work out which one you are.

• 16:36Joe Rogan?

  Perverse incentives is the real word, because here's the thing, folks, we do have a horrible impact on the environment. It's factual, it's measurable, you can go see it. There's many third world countries that have rivers that are completely clogged with garbage and plastic, that's real. If you're not trying to stop that, but you're railing about carbon, well, carbon is a weird thing, because carbon's essential to plant life. There's more green on earth today than there was 100 years ago, and that's because of our carbon emissions. That is an inconvenient truth. All right, fuck Al Gore, that's an inconvenient truth. So carbon is a part of the, is it good that we're burning stuff and putting it in the atmosphere? No, I do not think it is, no.

• 17:21Joe Rogan?

  I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that our impact on the environment that is... Tangible and disgusting is pollution. That's the impact on the environment. And if you're really thinking about our carbon footprint and carbon taxes and carbon incentives. You gotta follow the money, like what is happening here? Well, there's a bunch of green initiatives and those green initiatives get funding. And they get funding to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. And if you know anything about any sort of nonprofit. Like someone just pulled up some, there's a nonprofit about animals and they just released what a fucking scam it is. There's so many of these nonprofits where the vast majority of the money is going to salaries.

• 18:05Joe Rogan?

  Like the, most of the money is going to salaries. And there's a tiny fraction of that money that gets allocated to whatever that cause is.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Which is why it justifies people who work for the organization to sustain the organization's existence.

• 18:21Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  That's their.

• 18:22Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent. But there's no data. Here's the thing. All of their predictions, all of the climate change predictions are totally inaccurate. Every single one by all the doomsayers. So you'd think they would course correct. You would think they would say, okay, no one's arguing that. The particulates that get emitted into the atmosphere by coal plants are not terrible for everyone. No one's arguing that. Glyphosate is good for you. No one's arguing that the poisons we're putting in rivers and streams. No one's arguing that's good for you. The stuff that gets into groundwater, no one says that's good. That's our real problem. Our real problem is pollution. It's fucking terrible. There's a real problem with waste.

• 19:07Joe Rogan?

  There's a real problem with landfills. All that's real. This carbon thing is a weird one. It's, it's a weird one to concentrate on solely. Because it seems to have an effect on the atmosphere. It has an effect on the temperature of earth. But not what they're saying.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Can you think of a perverse incentive, other than people just want to keep their jobs? Is there something else?

• 19:29Joe Rogan?

  It's people keeping their jobs, it's righteousness, it's virtue signaling, and it's also the extraordinary amount of money that gets put into green initiatives. It also helps people campaign. When you're campaigning, if you say, "Climate change is real, we will follow the science." "Oh, thank God, you get my vote."

• 19:53Joe Rogan?

  That's what happens, and these fucking dumbasses just fall for it every time. It's not that it's a real impending doom scenario, that's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But what is real is humans' impact on Earth. So you gotta figure out, why is this one thing, why are they concentrating so much on carbon? When it's not a measurable thing? It's not a thing where you're seeing this hugely detrimental effect by this one action that we have. Well, because someone's trying to make money. It's it. No one's doing it for your own good. There's not a fucking single person on Earth that's involved in any of these big causes, that's really concerned about us. No, they're all making money.

• 20:38Joe Rogan?

  And they're all ma- even if they're not making money other than their salary. If your salary is a million dollars a year to run a charity, maybe that charity's fucking horseshit. You know? Because if you make a million dollars a year, you're rich as fuck. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. A nice cold Happy Dad is low carbonation, gluten-free, and is easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. When you're watching a football game, or you're golfing, watching a fight with your boys, or out on the lake, these moments call for a cold Happy Dad. People are drinking all these seltzers in skinny cans that are loaded with sugar.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  But Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal-sized can. You can buy Happy Dad on the GoPuff app and your local liquor and grocery store, including Walmart, Kroger, Total Wine, and Circle K. And you can't decide on a flavor, grab a variety. Lemon lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records and Snoop Dogg. They have their new lemonade coming out as well. Visit happydad.com for a limited time offer and use code ROGEN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be of legal drinking age. Please drink responsibly.

• 22:00Joe Rogan?

  Happy Dad Hard Seltzer Tea and Lemonade is a malt alcohol located in Orange County, California.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Well, the argument would be in order to get somebody of the standard that you need to run this charity at the level that it needs to be run at, you need to give a competitive salary.

• 22:17Joe Rogan?

  What an amazing job they're doing where 95% of the money goes to overhead. What an amazing job you've done in having zero progress.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Show me your efficiency plans, the blueprint.

• 22:28Joe Rogan?

  Zero progress in any of your air quotes, science that you're pointing to that's showing these prediction models. All their prediction models are wrong. And they always quote things that are wrong, like storms are stronger, they're more common. No, you're just looking at a strong storm. If you look overall, there's always been strong storms. They're totally unpredictable.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Have you had Alex Epstein on? Do you know him?

• 22:52Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't know.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  The case, Moral Case for Fossil Fuels.

• 22:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Interesting dude. He has like one of the most interesting stats that I learned from him was climate-related deaths have decreased by 98% over the last century.

• 23:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  So one of the things that people don't consider when they look at the cost of energy and energy production is that you need to be able to protect, more people are killed from heat than are killed from cold. And you need to protect from heat by using energy. And if you're going to produce cheap energy, some byproducts are going to be spat out into the atmosphere. But the impact of the creation of the energy is way more effective at increasing human longevity than the side effect of the energy being made. Does that make sense?

• 23:37Joe Rogan?

  Totally rational.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Joe Rogan?

  It seems like that would make sense.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Dude, I've had, I've had Richard Betts, Director of the IPCC Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change on the show, Hannah Ritchie from Our World in Data. Like, I've really tried to get a good balance on all of this stuff. But Alex's position in that area, which is it's a very luxury belief to hold, to talk about how green we must be in the West when you have access to...

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Unlimited energy. I think a billion people worldwide don't have access to reliable electricity. Like, half a billion people are still using wood and dung in order to be able to produce their electricity. That was the data that he showed me the last time we spoke. That means that if you've got a baby that's on a ventilator, a newborn baby that needs to be put on, like, that baby dies. That baby dies because that particular country does not have access to clean, to cheap and reliable energy. Cleanness does not matter for these people.

• 24:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've heard that argument, that the best result worldwide would be to increase the power supply to all these third world countries. And then you would have this ability to start manufacturing, doing a bunch of different things that we associate with the negative aspects of the West. You know, the negative aspects of the West that cause pollution, that cause all these different things.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  The problem is, electricity is a real bastard to try and move. I think that the entire grid has got eight minutes of battery backup, 10 minutes of battery backup. It's so little, and it's so cumbersome, and you lose it as you transport it further. And, dude, I get it. Like, I really believe that existential risks, climate change included, are things that humans should pay attention to. But if you were to rank, Toby Ord wrote this great book called The Precipice, and he is from the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford. He wrote, the best researchers in the world, he got them to rank, what are the most dangerous existential risks to humans? And it's one in 10,000 chance over

• 25:35Speaker 01

  the next century coming from climate change. It's one in six from AI, or one in 10 from AI, one in 10 from engineered pandemics, like, one in 30 from natural pandemics. There's so many other huge issues that are really pressing. I'm not saying that climate change isn't a priority. I'm saying that if you were to rank the priorities, it actually starts to move pretty far down. And when you think, if people are worried about the future of the world, they have a worried about the future of the world budget to spend, almost all of that is going on climate change. Jamie, can you try and get up, it's a chart by Toby Ord, it's just called, if you search, like, The Precipice Chart, Toby Ord can bring it

• 26:17Speaker 01

  up. And you just think, how much attention is being paid to all of these other things? Like, how much attention's being paid? A nuclear war, I guess, gets a little bit of attention, but slightly less so now. But natural pandemics, engineered pandemics, AGI.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  These are big deals and I worry that a lot of attention has been focused on to one actually relatively inconsequential, at least in the immediate term. No, go back, do a Google search for me. Top left. Yep, that's it. So, nuclear war, one in 1,000, climate change, one in 1,000, other environmental damage, one in 1,000, engineered pandemics, one in 30, unaligned artificial intelligence, one in 10. The total risk is one in six, but climate change is one in 1,000 over the next 100 years. That stellar explosion, there you go, one in, what's that, a billion? That's what we need.

• 27:15Joe Rogan?

  I don't like that one. That one scares the shit out of me. I remember a documentary I watched back in the day that was about hypernovas and when they first started measuring these gamma bursts in space, they thought that maybe alien races were at war with each other because there's this enormous burst of energy and they realized it's stars going hypernova and how many of them do it all over the universe because the universe is so big.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And there's just a single beam of, like a death ray that gets sent out across the universe.

• 27:46Joe Rogan?

  Just unimaginable power and it happens all the time. It's happening all the time in the sky.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

• 27:54Joe Rogan?

  And if it happens anywhere near you, it just takes out the whole solar system, takes out everything.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  You're gone.

• 28:00Joe Rogan?

  If it happens in neighboring solar systems, it takes us out, takes out everything. Yeah, you're fucked.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Wow. If that's not justification for just living your life and getting the fuck on with it and not coloring the Venice Canal green. I don't know what is.

• 28:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's the, you know, it's the thing that gets you attention unfortunately. That's really what all this is about, you know. Send her back to Israel, they'll give her attention. They gave her some great attention.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I'm kind of obsessed with this idea of toxic compassion, which I think is what you're talking about.

• 28:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  So the prioritization of like, short-term emotional comfort over everything else. And I remember Elon was talking a couple of years ago, someone had accused him of contributing to climate change, so on and so forth, and he says, "I think I've done more to reduce climate change than any other human on the planet, that if you look at the EV revolution being started by Tesla, plus everything else from a technology perspective that we're doing, I think that there's an argument to be made that I've had a more positive impact on the future of the climate than any other human." He said, "What I'm interested in is the reality of doing good, not appearing good, and not appearing to do good while doing bad."

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And this, the opportunity people have to be able to look like they're doing good while not doing it, is exactly where this toxic compassion thing leaks in. So for instance, people will proclaim that body weight has no impact on health over a long duration, even if this causes overweight individuals to not take their health as seriously, and literally die sooner, but we're here. Joe, you don't understand, we're trying to be inclusive here, we're trying to be understanding of what's going on with these people. If someone was to say that a male athlete has no advantage in a sporting competition, because, Joe, we're trying to be inclusive, we're trying to be empathetic, we care about

• 29:58Speaker 01

  these people, well, even if that's done at the exclusion of female athletes, right? People are prepared to show, they're prepared to do whatever is needed to appear good.

• 30:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And the alternative, which it makes complete sense, who wants to do good while looking bad?

• 30:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:19Joe Rogan?

  That's the thing you're saying is so important. They will sacrifice everything to appear that they're doing good. That's because that's really what they're worried about. And that is all stemming, at least in part, I should say not stemming, but certainly accentuated by the social media world that we're living in now. Because everyone has this opportunity to appear like they're something other than they are. They're using filters, they're standing in front of a leased car, there's all the above. They're doing things, they're wearing cheap fake jewelry, they're trying to look like something they're not, and there's a culture of that. And there's also a culture that gets, "Well, I'm not one of those because I don't care about material goods, but I'm really interested in climate change."

• 31:01Joe Rogan?

  And so then, you know, you join up with whatever fucking climate change group that's yelling and shouting, and you carry a sign, and you do all these things that you're supposed to do, and you get free water. The whole thing is just, it's a psychological game that people are playing with themselves. They try to appear that they're special and to be in competition or in battle with the other side, you know? But if you're in battle with people that are saying, "Hey, none of these models are correct." "Hey, none of these predictions have come to bear." Zero, not a single one, where they say, "The sea level's gonna rise, there's gonna be no more Miami." Nothing, not a fucking thing has happened. Like, you're wrong, okay? So we need to figure out what's right.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  If we can all agree that if we're doing something bad to the planet and it's somehow or another avoidable, let's work towards that. But if you're telling me we're doing something bad to the planet, and then when I say, "Well, show me," and you can't, "Well, what about all these predictions? Well, they're wrong." "Well, what about all that movie that got everybody..." "Well, it was totally inaccurate." Okay, well, you can't use that on your side anymore.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  I never saw that movie.

• 32:10Joe Rogan?

  Ah, so bad.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  What were the claims?

• 32:13Joe Rogan?

  An inconvenient trial, "Let's find out." Put into perplexity what the incorrect...

• 32:18Speaker 03

  I was already asking, what did it get right and what did it get wrong?

• 32:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what did it say?

• 32:22Speaker 03

  I'm typing that up right now.

• 32:24Joe Rogan?

  I guarantee you, they didn't get nothing wrong, or they didn't get nothing right.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Do you want to start with right or wrong?

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  The predictions for catastrophic events, what did it get wrong about the predictions for catastrophic events?

• 32:39Joe Rogan?

  Predictions that were incorrect. Rapid sea level rise, 20 feet. The film depicted a potential sea level rise of up to 20 feet, 6 meters, in the near future from the collapse of Greenland or West Antarctic ice sheets. While this extreme scenario is considered possible over centuries or millennia, scientific consensus does not support this happening. Imminently, current rates are much slower. Even with acceleration, reaching 20 feet would take many centuries. Another one, Mount Kilimanjaro, glacier melt caused by global warming. Gola attributed the shrinking of Kilimanjaro's glaciers mainly to global warming, but later research points to other major causes like sublimation and reduced snowfall, unrelated primarily to temperature.

• 33:23Joe Rogan?

  Impression of imminent chaos. The film often implies that catastrophic outcomes like rapid ice sheet collapse and dramatic sea level rise might occur within decades, when in reality, such processes are expected to take much longer, often centuries or more. And then legal findings. A UK court found nine errors of exaggerations in the film, mostly involving a lack of clarity on time scales or oversimplified attributions like Kilimanjaro.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Overall, climate scientists judged an inconvenient truth as mostly accurate with its projections, particularly in broad trends, but criticized its presentation for occasionally exaggerating the speed and certainty of some changes. Well, I think this is...

• 34:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, this is the thing. It's most, it's climate scientists judged it. I'd like to keep this climate hustle going on, so... Well, they were mostly accurate. We do have a sincere problem.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Stop putting a British accent on when you do that. Stop putting a British accent on when you do that.

• 34:18Joe Rogan?

  That's not even British. That's like a fake British guy. That's like a posh shithead from Connecticut.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay. But you're right. The lack of scrutiny that people have of their behavior, the distance between our opinions and our deeds.

• 34:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Never been greater. That's the internet.

• 34:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  And what it means is you're allowed to do good. While appearing bad and do bad while appearing good.

• 34:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  And it's way easier to do bad or to just not research or and it's significantly harder. If you're like, I'm gonna go out, try and invent something, try and push against an idea or an ideology or a campaign for a movement that I think is really, really important. And people are gonna say that I'm doing something mean or people are gonna call me names for doing it. There's no incentive to do it.

• 35:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Why would someone go, why would somebody do that? And I think that's what Elon's point is, right? What I'm interested in is doing good, not the appearance of it. And I see a lot of people who are doing bad while appearing good.

• 35:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, I think it's no, through no fault of their own, young people are indoctrinated into this world when they start going to college that you have to be active and to be an activist is to be a good person, to be involved in these campus activities is a good thing. And this also, there's a tribal aspect to it. You know, you're on a tribe of people that are the people that are on the right side of history. These are the people that are kind and compassionate unless you disagree with them. And these, these are the people that are, they trust the science unless it's inconvenient. And these are the people that, you know, you wanna be in the educated minority. You wanna be the people that get it and you wanna, you, it's very important that you use your voice.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 35:55Joe Rogan?

  You know, and so they think they're being good people. And I, I get that and I understand that, but it's being weaponized against you. And it's probably not even funded by legitimate people. It's most likely there's at least some funding by some foreign entities that are just trying to sow discord and make sure that everybody hates everybody.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  That'd be a wonderful way to take down any country, right? To make it feel as if it was coming from inside.

• 36:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sure. There's a lot of that going on. That's been absolutely proven. There was a thing recently with ChatGPT where they found out that these entities in China were using ChatGPT to argue about USA shutdown to like they were just, they ran all these social media accounts.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  The Twitter account thing where you can see where the accounts are based?

• 36:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I know. Bro. One of the ones that is like a fan account of the JRE. People thought it was me forever and I was like, I didn't correct it. It says, I made it say parody accounts or it says either commentary account or parody account or whatever. Fan run account, just so you don't think it's me because people do things to me. It's in Asia. So someone in Asia is doing that allegedly, unless he's got a VPN. I mean, you could.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Who knew? Hardworking Asians supporting the Joe Rogan podcast.

• 37:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could, right? That's the question. Like, how do they know where you're from if you sign up? After a year away, Canelo Alvarez is back in the ring October 31st, facing undefeated Christian Mobily live on The Zone and DraftKings Sportsbook has you covered for the fight. With DraftKings Sportsbook, your number one sportsbook for live betting. You can stay connected as the action unfolds and makes your picks in real time. Whether you're locked in for the main event or watching the full card with friends, DraftKings Sportsbook gives you another way to follow the fights you already care about. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGEN. New DraftKings Sportsbook customers can spend five and get 200 in total bonuses within 21 days.

• 37:56Joe Rogan?

  That's code ROGEN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, call 1-800-MYRESSET. 21 and over, Virginia only. Eligibility restrictions apply. $50 in non-withdrawable bonus bets issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Limited time offer.

• 38:20Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back. On a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan.

• 39:04Joe Rogan?

  Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card. Provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. With a VPN. And you say, I'm in the South Pacific. Like, how do they know?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I certainly know that, um, assuming that you're on the right side of history, especially if you're in a big group, is often a bit of a dangerous position to be in. So that Cassandra complex thing that I was talking about before. Sometimes people might say, it's your duty, if you believe in a thing, to stand firm. Right? You should, you should make your case known. You know, you're Ignace Samuel Wise. You know about the germ theory of disease. You're Rachel Carson. You know about the impact of DDT. You're Edward Snowden. You know about the surveillance that's going on. There's a really wonderful example, the comparison between Copernicus and Galileo. So Copernicus in the 1500s, he begins to realize that the Earth might not be the center

• 40:10Speaker 01

  of the solar system, let alone the universe. And he has enough evidence to justify it, but he waits until his deathbed to actually sort of whisper out his great work, which is De Revolutionibus, this, this work that he made. And he does it on his deathbed, presumably to avoid the wrath of the church. Now, some sort of hardline freedom fighting, you should do it, don't listen to the man, don't back down, like, just stand on your principles, people would say, well, that's a cowardly thing to do. You knew what the truth was and you didn't stand by it. A hundred years later, Galileo comes along. He sees the moons of Jupiter, sees the phases of Venus, sees the pockmarks on the surface of the moon, and he realizes that the heliocentric model, this like Copernican revolution,

• 40:54Speaker 01

  is true. Proclaims it from the rooftops. What happens to him? He gets put under house arrest. He gets forced to recant under the threat of torture and spends the rest of his life under house arrest. So what you have here, and I fucking love this example so much, I think it's so cool. It's two guys, hundred years apart, with the same realization. And the justification for the first one not saying what he didn't say loudly is the treatment of the second. I think it's like just this perfect explanation of irony, you know what I mean? Like it's so perfect. And you go, well, the main issue that I have with like, basically being right and early often feels a lot like being wrong.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  And if you make a, an example of somebody in that way, it is basically you saying, if you step out of line too far, this is what's gonna happen to you. And it causes people who are trying to move conceptual inertia forward, were trying to do research, I'm trying to assess whether or not this is actually the way that the world should be. It causes them to be more Copernicus, not more Galileo. And I think that's, that is not what you would want in a civilization that's trying to continue to make progress. You would want to be accepting of new ideas and you would want to encourage them as opposed to castigating people.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that social media and the influence of other people's opinions, it makes someone more likely to be able to think for themselves or less likely? Like more likely to be able to examine preconceived notions, recognize like, oh my god, maybe I'm biased, or maybe it's just like a group bias that I've accepted because of all the people around me. And I'm, I'm, I think, I think this is wrong. And I think, this is what I think is really going on. Or do you think it encourages that kind of thinking or discourages it?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  I think it certainly encourages group think, very much so.

• 42:54Joe Rogan?

  But both, right?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  It would open up the opportunity for some people with a very unique psychological profile to be able to step back against it. Black helicopters.

• 43:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a few guys out there I can think of.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  But I think, on average, what you're seeing is basically this huge, big swath of people. For the first time ever, you're able to aggregate just how much support or criticism something has.

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  You know, this is what like to dislike ratios are. This is what upvote to downvotes are on Reddit.

• 43:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And I think that that causes people, most people don't want to have to do the thinking of coming up with an original opinion. I'm sure that most of mine aren't original, but given the fact that doing the original thinking is hard, most of the culture war is actually two armies of puppets being ventriloquized by a handful of actual thinkers. Most people are just being brought along and pushed along by people who came up with an idea. And they're assuming, well, we've done, we know this for a fact. Well, it's interesting because both sides know for a fact the thing that the other side says is a lie. So that can't be true. See, I get the sense that it causes people to adhere to the crowd more, more than they would have done previously.

• 44:08Joe Rogan?

  And you also have to think that if you're spending that much time on it, like six hours a day, it's one of the primary influences of your life, probably more so than any other media in the past. Because it was very rare, as a child, that you would listen to six hours of the news. You wouldn't really be indoctrinated into six hours of whatever the latest cultural dilemma was or the latest social issue was. You wouldn't get that much of it. You'd get people talking about it like normal people do during the day, or maybe you'd be talking about a newspaper article you read, but you're not getting six hours of it all day long. But now we are, at least six hours. I mean, what is the, let's find that out. What's the average number of hours a 18-year-old kid is on social media?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  I would guess it's at least, I would guess, social media, maybe four.

• 44:55Joe Rogan?

  Or their phone, let's just say their phone, screen time.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Screen time, at least six, probably more.

• 44:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  At least six, probably more. And the mad thing to consider here is your parasocial relationships. People, think about this, people will listen to your show and listen to my show more than they see their parents.

• 45:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  By a huge margin.

• 45:13Joe Rogan?

  Huge margin. Yeah, if you saw your parents that much, it'd be kind of creepy.

• 45:18Joe Rogan?

  The average screen time for 18-year-olds, seven to eight hours. Of total screen time per day is common, though it varies a lot by person and country. Okay, what country has the least amount of screen usage?

• 45:32Speaker 03

  Would you want to discount school time too? Because aren't they on screens technically in school? I mean, it's like phone time, I guess, right?

• 45:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it's personal phones they're talking about.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Are they on screens?

• 45:44Speaker 03

  I've noticed it's counting my laptop open in my screen time because I'm connected to the same like iOS system. So I'm getting like 18 hours a day, but I'm like, I'm not on my phone 18 hours a day.

• 45:54Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 45:58Joe Rogan?

  So let's guess like what countries? Well, you'd have to have first world countries for it to count.

• 46:05Joe Rogan?

  You know, like if you're in the Congo, you probably don't get as much screen time.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  No, you're busy mining the fucking

• 46:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  raw materials.

• 46:12Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're making the phones, not using them.

• 46:14Joe Rogan?

  Which is the craziest thing of all, that the thing that people virtue signal on the most at the end of the line

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Japan.

• 46:22Joe Rogan?

  is someone pulling it out.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Lowest global average.

• 46:24Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. Three hours and 56 minutes is still a lot of time. That's that's kind of crazy, but they're probably a little healthier with it.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  How is nine hours and 24 minutes less than 10 hours and 56 minutes? I like that. How is that the highest global average if 10 hours is the?

• 46:40Joe Rogan?

  That's weird.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  I don't understand.

• 46:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, close contender is more than the highest global average? Oh, get it. But either way, the Philippines, they're killing the game. 10 hours and 56 minutes.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Dude, there was a 2023 mental health report. The UK came in second most depressed country in the world.

• 47:02Joe Rogan?

  Second?

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Second most depressed country in the world.

• 47:05Joe Rogan?

  UK.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  UK, yeah.

• 47:06Joe Rogan?

  What's number one?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Uzbekistan. So it's just above Uzbekistan and just below South Africa.

• 47:13Joe Rogan?

  Did the UK used to rank higher?

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yes, it's tracked down over time, but it's never been superbly. I mean, we're a Misery is our, like melancholy is sort of our personality trait. It's our national sport, right, being a bit more melancholic. But yeah, the Ukraine, who are just about to go into their fourth year of war, came in higher, and Yemen, who apparently are going through like one of the worst humanitarian crises in human history, also ranked higher than the UK.

• 47:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  So yeah, second most depressed country in the world.

• 47:43Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. That's a wild number, man. It can't just be the weather. It has to be like a-

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Weather might contribute a little bit.

• 47:52Joe Rogan?

  A little bit, like Seattle does. Like, people in Seattle are depressed as fuck.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Maybe it's the online safety bill.

• 47:56Joe Rogan?

  Could be. That would get me depressed. I would be so depressed if I lived in England right now. I'd be like, I'm fucked, like legitimately fucked. Like, imagine if I was running this podcast the exact same way out of England.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Not for long.

• 48:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I'd get arrested. I'd get arrested. I saw them, they arrested a teacher because he refused to refer to one of his students as a "they", and this is like his second infraction. And so they arrested him for failure to recognize a singular plural.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Look, I really don't like, I don't like shitting on the UK because it feels like I'm pulling the ladder up after I've just got out of it. But it's just, I don't know how many more ways you can faceplant over and over again. And there's this bit, there's a strange kind of romanticization of the past, of the UK, where we, "Oh, English common law, and we stopped the transatlantic slave trade, and we used the navy and so on and so forth." But like, we're really living on borrowed time now as the UK. It's been a good while since the UK's sort of contributed in that sort of a way. There was a, you know Alan Turing from-

• 49:08Joe Rogan?

  The Turing Effect?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the guy that decoded the Enigma machine.

• 49:13Joe Rogan?

  The Turing Test.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was gay, and he was chemically castrated by the British, despite the fact that he was literally our equivalent of the atomic bomb, right? He was a very British version as well. It wasn't kinetic, it was cognitive. So he decodes the machine that the Germans are using to send their secret messages. This means that we're able to detect exactly where the U-boats are going to be, and it results in some really awkward situations, like if we, before we're going to use all of our force to try and take Germany down, if we avoid all of their planned bombings- They're gonna guess that we might have the keys to some of their communication. So they had to start making decisions about which boats needed to be let attacked and which boats needed to be saved.

• 49:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  They knew all of the different attacks that were coming. But if they got rid of all of them, if they were safe from all of them, the Germans would start to catch on. So they had this really.

• 50:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh god.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  So this guy, this guy is, is our equivalent of the atomic bomb, right? He's our Oppenheimer. He gets chemically castrated just after World War Two.

• 50:19Joe Rogan?

  It was in the 50s, right?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he kills himself. He takes his own life. He puts cyanide in an apple. Oscar Wilde, in the 1800s, one of the greatest writers of all time. He's jailed and then dies in exile as a peasant in France because he was gay. And then 70 years after Turing, Gordon Brown, it's like 2008, 2009, publicly apologizes. They bring out this thing called the Turing Act, which gets rid of the criminal records of all of these people from history, like posthumous. And some of them are probably still alive, actually, like some of these people that had been, whatever it was, convicted of indecent behavior, improper behavior at the time. And then they put Turing on the 50 pound note.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  So Britain has, for all that it's fantastic and I love it and it's the country that I came from. Like, it does have a history of fucking persecuting people for what's deemed improper behavior at the time. And then apologizing for it a couple of decades later. And I think with the online safety bill thing, just, I think it's gonna be the sort of thing that you look back on and go, that, that was not. In no one's world was that a smart move. I don't think that it's, I don't think that it's helping anybody at all.

• 51:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, it just appears that they want total, complete control of what people say over there. And that they don't want criticism of the government and criticism about immigration and criticism about, you know, fill in the blank. They don't want it. And the best way to stop that is to keep everybody scared, make everybody self censor. What's the best way to make everybody self censor? Put a bunch of fucking people in jail. So last year, what was it, 12,000, 12,000 people got arrested for social media posts?

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Supposedly more than Russia, although the Russian, the Russian stats might not be.

• 52:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they didn't arrest them, they just shot them in the face. They don't count that.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Gulag for you.

• 52:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they just kill folks over there. But yeah, it's really bad. It's really bad, and it just doesn't seem very progressive. It doesn't seem like you're moving towards the future. It's not progress. Like this, we figured out a long time ago that free speech is very important to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And when you suppress people's speech, you can get away with a lot of fucking horrible things because you stop people from being able to protest it. You know, in a small part, we saw a lot of that during the pandemic. And, you know, and you, you see what, what the consequences of that are. You, you can't trust people that want power. You just can't.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  What you mean?

• 52:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, anybody that wants any kind of control over a group of people. If you want to control what they say, if you want to control where they go, you want to put them in 15-minute cities, like, you can't trust that because the natural inclination when someone has power is to never let it go and to ramp it up. They're in the power business. If you're in the power business, you don't want to keep making the same amount of money every year. You want to, you don't want to have the same power every year. That's boring, right? Like, if you're an insurance salesman, you want to be the fucking employee of the month. You want to make more money next year. You got your eyes on a new Lexus. You're trying to make more. You're not trying to stay, maintain. That's not the game you're in. And if you're in the power game, and if you're in the game of enacting new laws in order to have,

• 53:32Joe Rogan?

  we need safety, safety. Under the guise of safety, you can get so much evil shit done. And if you start doing that, you're not going to say, you know what, guys, we were, that safety bill, we were really wrong. And what's really important is discourse. What's really important is that, maybe I wonder why you think the way you think and, you know, maybe part of this polarization process is not enabling us to see valid points the other side has. Let's all come together and talk about this as reasonable human beings. It's, no, that's not what they're gonna do. They're gonna just come up with more fucking reasons to put you in a cage.

• 54:07Joe Rogan?

  They want you to shut the fuck up because they want to make more. They want to have more. They want to get more power. They want to be the best leader. They want to be the most powerful leader.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Isn't that a ruthless part of human nature that trajectory is more important than position? Jimmy Carr taught me this. So you're industry. Imagine that you're the 250th best comedian in the world. Let's imagine there's a ranking. And last year you were the 300th. You were in a more psychologically preferable position than somebody who's number two in the world. But last year I was number one. This sense that humans have of where am I now compared to where I was previously? I spoke to Dan Bilzerian about this forever ago. And I was like, dude, you've kind of climbed the peak of the mountain of hedonism. Did you ever think that you kind of front loaded it too much?

• 54:56Speaker 01

  And that it's going to be really, really difficult for you to ever like reset, like do a hedonic reset? How do you go from the most amount of girls and the cars and the all the dopamine that the world has to offer? Like, where do you go from there? And he basically said, yeah, he was like, I'm going to try. I would consider shaving my head and my beard and going and working in an Amazon warehouse for six months to see if I can do like a hard reset. But you always know that you've got the get out of jail free card, so it's not going to be the same. And just the idea, as you're saying, somebody has power.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  They want more power.

• 55:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  They want more power. They want more control. That sense.

• 55:32Joe Rogan?

  That's the sport they're playing.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 55:35Joe Rogan?

  Scoring, they're scoring. You have to keep score.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Greta Thunberg, the same thing. We need more eyeballs. We need a bigger, bigger. Because where do you go after you've made the rivers of Venice green? Like, well, you need to do something bigger, something more.

• 55:47Joe Rogan?

  I need more likes. That's, that didn't get me enough likes. I need more likes. I need to go viral.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  It's a ruthless.

• 55:54Joe Rogan?

  I'm being shadow banned.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  No, you're not. Your content just sucks. No one, but some people get shadow banned, but most people that are shadow banned, they just suck.

• 56:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, most people just don't understand that they're not interesting. But there's definitely real shadow banning going on. And one of the things that was interesting is that once Elon purchased Twitter, I gained like five million followers over the course of like a couple of months. I was like, what's going on? It's because I was, I was somehow or another, they had locked my followers down. This, I'm not complaining about this, I'm just observing. I know I have a lot of followers, it's ridiculous. But I started, I think I had seven million. And it used to go up pretty steady. And then somewhere during the woke days, during the dark days of woke, when it all started happening, which is around, I think, 2014, 15, 16, it started really ramping up.

• 56:45Joe Rogan?

  And then it seems like from 16 on, real censorship started really kicking into high gear because then they had a reason for it. Donald Trump is our president. We have to make sure this never happens again. In fact, there was a meeting, I believe,

• 57:01Joe Rogan?

  I don't want to say the tech company because I might be incorrect, but one of the people, one of the main people at this tech company, specifically said at the meeting, "We have to make sure this doesn't happen again."

• 57:16Speaker 01

  As in?

• 57:17Joe Rogan?

  As in Trump being president.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  They did a fucking horrendous job there, didn't they?

• 57:20Joe Rogan?

  They fucked up. But the point being, imagine you are in control of an enormous platform, an enormous media platform that controls the discourse of untold billions of people in the world and you have a very specific mandate that you've given to the people that work for you. "We have to make sure that we control who the king is." Because that's what you're saying. Are you saying we want to make sure this doesn't happen again? Well, how do you do that? How do you do that if 50% of the people don't agree?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  By force.

• 57:54Joe Rogan?

  There's only one way. You have to do it by force. Or if you control the narrative, then you just hide information, accelerate information that's incorrect, you just ban people from communicating, you kick people out.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, some people would say that getting to choose who's king is what you do if you then buy that social media platform.

• 58:16Joe Rogan?

  Sure, there's an argument for that, like what Elon did. There's a real argument for that. But there's also an argument for... Don't you think it's a good idea if we have at least one of these motherfuckers that's huge, um, that you can go Wild, Wild West on and say whatever you want? I, I think that's very important. You don't have to agree with them. There's all these tools you can use. One of them is the moot button. You can mute people. Bye bye. I don't want to hear you anymore. You're annoying. Or you can ban them. I don't even want you looking at my page. Get out of here. There's, those things exist. Like you can curate who you're communicating and interacting with. But if you don't have one of these groups that's resistant to intelligence agencies

• 59:00Joe Rogan?

  shutting down legitimate voices, including during the COVID times. It was guys like Jay Bhattacharya from Stanford, guy from MIT, because they were saying something that didn't jive with what the agenda that Fauci was pushing through.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Where do you think we're at now? If you were to sort of predict what the trajectory of the, the speech stuff is online, talk about America, UK, I think is just a lost cause. Do you think that we're going to continue on this general path, which seems to be a little bit more sanity from the peak?

• 59:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Have you ever lost your keys and ended up tearing your house apart trying to find them? What makes it even worse is when it's the most conspicuous, obvious place you could have sworn you checked already. It'd be nice if we had the ability to find whatever we're looking for right away. And at least for hiring managers on the hunt for talented people, that's possible. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Using ZipRecruiter almost feels like having superpowers. It works quickly and efficiently at finding qualified candidates for your role largely because they have incredible matching technology and an advanced resume database that can

• 1:00:15Joe Rogan?

  help you connect with people instantly. No more wasting time and energy. ZipRecruiter can help you find exactly what you want. Want to know right away how many qualified candidates are in your area? Look no further than ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get equality candidate within the first day. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. I think people realize from the peak and most importantly realize from Elon's purchase of Twitter. When Elon purchased Twitter, and I don't say this lightly, I think he changed the course of civilization. I really do.

• 1:00:59Joe Rogan?

  I think we were on our way to this weird dystopian censorship censorship complex that was already moving. We had already had intelligence agencies that were contacting Twitter. We know this through the Twitter files and they were banning certain people that weren't saying incorrect things. But they were saying things that were inconvenient. And they they turned out to all be accurate. All the things that they were warning about, all the things that they're saying all turned out to be accurate. They stopped the the distribution of the Hunter Biden laptop story by the New York Post. The New York Post, the second oldest newspaper in America. It's a fucking huge newspaper.

• 1:01:39Joe Rogan?

  To stop that from being able to be distributed on Twitter, which it would turn out to be a totally accurate story. And to stop that accurate story is wild. That is scary stuff. That if Elon didn't purchase Twitter, we would have just had to deal with that kind of stuff. That would be and it would accelerate. It wouldn't stay where it is. It would ramp up. It would get more. There were they were starting to use the term malinformation. So there's misinformation, disinformation, and then malinformation. Malinformation is factual information that might cause harm.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Can you give me an example of malinformation?

• 1:02:18Joe Rogan?

  Children don't need a COVID vaccine. That's malinformation because it is true. Statistically speaking, like especially healthy kids, they they kick it off like it's nothing. They don't need a vaccine for that, but that might cause people to not get vaccinated. And that might kill your grandmother. So that's malinformation.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Can you think of an example of malinformation where it's justified in doing that?

• 1:02:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I would say like.

• 1:02:45Joe Rogan?

  If you had some information and you were, you were releasing it online that was an accurate depiction of some things that the federal government is involved with that would compromise national security to a huge extent.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  People overseas.

• 1:03:08Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, yeah, would get people killed, start conflicts.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Here's another one that I've just thought of. How to, you know, those desktop DNA printers? This is how to put smallpox together.

• 1:03:19Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, something like that.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Something which is true, but would be, would be dangerous. And this is, the devil's in the fucking details with stuff like this.

• 1:03:27Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. It's never binary, it's never incorrect or correct.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's binary.

• 1:03:32Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes, I shouldn't say never.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Some things are binary.

• 1:03:34Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Like whether or not you should win a fucking world's woman's strong lifting, strong man power woman competition.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  That just happened, I thought we were done with that. It just happened.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Well, do you know why it was able to happen? It's because that person lied. That person lied about their sex.

• 1:03:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Jamie, can you try and pull up an image of the current 2025 world's strongest woman winner, please? Just for clarity, Mitchell Hooper, that is the world's strongest man, Canadian dude, he's 6'3", 330. The person who won woman's strongest man is 6'4" and 400 pounds. She makes the current world's strongest man look like an infant.

• 1:04:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, world's strongest woman, woman stripped of title after organizers discovered she was born a man.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  That was an hour ago, dude.

• 1:04:31Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so an hour ago they stripped her. Is that the person?

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yep, Jamie Booker, disqualified.

• 1:04:37Joe Rogan?

  That's a man?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Are you sure?

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  It appears the athlete who is biologically male and now identifies as female competed in the women's open, open category, they were unaware of this fact ahead of the competition and have been urgently investigating. I want to know what urgent investigation is.

• 1:04:52Joe Rogan?

  They went on Twitter.

• 1:04:55Joe Rogan?

  So that's, that's a biological male. That's interesting.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:04:59Joe Rogan?

  It looks like just a big lady.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Had we been aware, or had this been declared at any point before or during the competition, this athlete would not have been permitted to compete in the women's open category. The move comes after runner-up Andrea Thompson, British, hey, was filmed storming off the podium as she raged about the bullshit decision toward the title. So the other competitors evidently knew.

• 1:05:17Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so Thompson is now the winner, so the UK gets the gold.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  I think, I think about this so much when it comes to sporting competitions, and it's not just with the, the trans thing, although this is a huge deal, and I did think that we kind of got past it. How horrible is it to be the person who won, but had that moment, the podium moment, stolen from you by somebody? I think there's a, a weightlifting, Olympics, weightlifting championship final where currently, like, the 11th place finisher is now first, because each person has progressively got popped for PEDs. Number one did that, number two did that, number three did. It's like 11 people have been popped for PEDs now.

• 1:06:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the Tour de France. You know, when they took away Lance Armstrong's titles for the Tour de France, what they didn't tell you, that if you want to go and remove all of the people that have tested positive for something, you gotta go down like 18th place.

• 1:06:17Joe Rogan?

  For real, for real. Like, all those guys were doing something. They were all blood doping. They were all taking EPO. They were all, they were putting motors in their fucking bikes.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I've seen a video of that.

• 1:06:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they were, these guys tried for fucking every edge humanly possible. So, you know, he was just a scapegoat. But what he, what he was doing was, he was suing people that were saying that he did PEDs.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  It's a smart way to silence them. But yeah, I, I mean, thinking about, I would be really interested to see what the reaction is. That's hot, fucking wet clay stuff, right? Hot off the press a couple of hours ago that it's been rescinded.

• 1:06:54Joe Rogan?

  I think we would be more outraged if they accepted this transgender person as a female. And then say, oh, a trans woman's a woman, let her compete. It seems like this person lied, and so that's different.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  But still identify, so I agree that it's reassuring to see what the world's strongest person organization decided that they were going to do in a sort of repercussion to it. But you can already predict, both of us can already predict what's going to happen online, that this person shouldn't have been stripped of their title. Maybe they lied, but they should be competing inside of this. The side of the aisle that always agrees with this, do you not think that they're going to be pro?

• 1:07:38Joe Rogan?

  I think that is slowly but surely losing traction and support. I really believe that. I believe that's where the rubber meets the road. Because you're going to lose most women that have ever done a sport. You know, if you are a sedentary woman that has no interest whatsoever in athletic competition, and you think it's more than a good price to pay to let biological males who identify as women, because we want them to be exclusive, it's more important to recognize and affirm their identity than it is to be fair. You haven't done any sports. So you're going to lose not just most of the men, you're going to lose a lot of, you're

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  going to lose anyone right of center. Like libertarian, anyone, anyone, you're going to, not just lose all of the right, you're going to lose a giant chunk of the center. Because I think the center in this country is probably the most rational of all groups. Those are the, those are the people that recognize, God, I'm kind of a little bit of everything here, you know? And right of center or left of center. You're going to lose all those people, and you're going to lose most women. You're going to lose most women that have gone to, most women that have daughters, you're going to lose them. The only ones you're not going to lose are the fucking kooks. The SSRI filled up anti-anxiety medication, transitioning happy kooks.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Those fucking kooks that, you know, think that you you have a hierarchy of who's oppressed the most and trans people are people, trans women are women, and they want to scream it out and yell it. They're just crazy. You're gonna have those people that aren't gonna be with it no matter what.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Get into the boxing ring with that trans woman who's a woman.

• 1:09:25Joe Rogan?

  I thought the one that was a man that lied, that the Olympic champion that they just took away his gold medal.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Flip flop, that story flip flop back and forth like 10 times. It was like a Christopher Nolan movie to me that.

• 1:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, because that person was threatening to sue a bunch of people, right? They were threatening to sue a bunch of people that called them a male, but then.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Rescinded it, made a statement.

• 1:09:45Joe Rogan?

  Let's put this through perplexity or something where we can figure out what.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Noticing a pattern.

• 1:09:51Joe Rogan?

  I want to know what the number is. I want to know what what's what's true because what I think is there was another organization that did a chromosome analysis and found out this person had an XY chromosome. So this is specific type of disease.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:06Joe Rogan?

  Or genetic abnormality where your testicles don't drop.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Edge cases again, dude. It's so strange.

• 1:10:13Speaker 03

  We're gonna ask it.

• 1:10:14Joe Rogan?

  Um, ask it, did that person get their gold medal taken away and why?

• 1:10:21Speaker 03

  Well, yes, they did.

• 1:10:23Joe Rogan?

  Right. But like, and why? Just see what I know, but let's see what it says as far in terms of why. Why? Because they're a man. And how did they find out? Find out how they found out. Because I think the narrative is that there was another boxing organization that had already suspected something was up.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Did some testing.

• 1:10:39Joe Rogan?

  Did some testing, found out this person has an XY chromosome.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Used that.

• 1:10:43Joe Rogan?

  So, won the Golden Women's 66 kilogram boxing event, uh, stripped now a de-recognized International Boxing Association, previously disqualified, believed from the 2023 Women's World Championships after she failed eligibility tests under its own rules. Later claimed those tests showed she was ineligible for women's competition because of these tests. IBA officials, some media and advocacy groups have publicly demanded the IOC strip or reclaim her gold medal, arguing that she could not have been allowed in the women's, should not have been allowed in the women's category. Like, they're still saying "she." Despite those demands, IOC has defended allowing Khalif to compete in Paris, describing

• 1:11:25Joe Rogan?

  the IBA's disqualification decision as arbitrary and saying she met the IOC's eligibility criteria at the time. So what is the IOC's credi- what is their eligibility criteria?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  I mean, dude, boxing must be a fucking nightmare for this because of all of the different organizations that exist and each one is gonna have its own different set-

• 1:11:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  You have a coordination problem here.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  Here's an even more, here's a bigger nightmare: prisons. Prisons have a self-identity thing. In order to be eligible for female prisons, there's a lot of prisons, including, I believe, New Jersey, California. California has 47 biological males that are housed in women's prisons.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:06Joe Rogan?

  At least.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Are they, so who runs a prison? Is it the state? Is it an independent organization?

• 1:12:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, some of them are independent, some of them are privately owned.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:16Joe Rogan?

  Chromosome test results were kept confidential by the IBA but were leaked after and widely reported. The IOC nonetheless rejected IBA's findings as arbitrary, even with the chromosome test.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  That's really standing your ground.

• 1:12:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy, you silly gooses.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Well, see, this was only, this was only 2024, so to say that, maybe this is the landmark case, maybe it wasn't Leah Thomas as a swimmer, maybe it was somebody in a physical sport. But I mean, when we're talking about the strong woman competition, dude, if you're 6'4", I think the next tallest woman was 5'8" or 5'7".

• 1:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Think about what you're doing. You're like wrapping your arms around, you can, it always gets slippery, right? Because it's like, well, there's not very many of them. So why are we making such a big deal out of it? And it's like, hey, if there's one rapist in the local community, you don't go, "Well, there's only one of them." Like, what's the other chances that you run into? It's like, no, no, no, we go, we try and, you know, treat this problem. So first off, there's not many of them. Then, well, you know, look at what happens when you take these estrogen, you downregulate your testosterone, it's below this particular level, therapeutic, da, da, da, da, da. And you go, well, yeah, but it's like being on a heavy course of steroids up until you stopped doing that. And then how much of that does carry over? That gets a bit slippery. But just the size, the size of the hands of a person who's six foot four

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  and 400 pounds compared with a woman who's probably like 220 and five foot eight, like grip strength, being able to do like, that's pretty important in the sport of strong women.

• 1:13:46Joe Rogan?

  Part of living a healthier lifestyle means being extra careful of what you put into your body. AG1 Pro gets that. Their formula was carefully crafted with vitamins, probiotics, and superfoods your body needs, plus enhanced support for your workout and recovery, including creatine. In fact, AG1 Pro contains five grams of Creavitalis, high-quality, German-made creatine monohydrate, and that matters. This Creavitalis is made in Germany under tight quality control and is 99.9% pure. So you're not getting some cheap version cut with fillers. If you want a high-quality supplement made with the right stuff, AG1 Pro is a no-brainer.

• 1:14:29Joe Rogan?

  Go to drinkag1.com/joe. For a limited time, get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D, tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stalkers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver.

• 1:15:14Joe Rogan?

  Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. You can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first. There's even an option for candidates to explain why they want the job. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Rapping your arms around an atlas stone.

• 1:16:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you could do this forever. It's all ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's not the same. You know, it doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to change their name and identify as a woman. It's just like you can't dominate women's sports, can't dominate women's spaces. You can't, you can't. You're not a woman. You know, we'll call you one if we want to be nice. But the reality is, there's biological sex is a real thing. And when it comes to competition, physical competition, there's a reason we have Title IX in America. There's a reason why we recognize women's sports. There's a reason why you have it set up that women will compete against each other because it's fair. It's not fair to make women...

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  Or else you'd just have a unisex category.

• 1:16:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  And it would be dominated by men.

• 1:16:43Joe Rogan?

  Dominated by men. And then girls wouldn't have this amazing opportunity to get scholarships, which they're being denied because biological males are winning in their category because they allow them to compete. And there's a thing called, this is what people don't want to believe, but it's true. It always has existed. There's a, no, they're doing this because they really are a woman. There's a thing called sandbagging. Okay? And sandbagging has always existed. Sandbagging is, let's say that you're going to enter into a jujitsu tournament and you're going into the purple belt division, but you've been a purple belt for eight years and you're supposed to be a brown belt. And they, you know, for whatever reason, you, or you could even, here's a worse one.

• 1:17:25Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you're a black belt in judo, like an elite black belt, and you enter into a jujitsu tournament in the white belt division. And you're in there with some fucking dork who's a plumber who's just started taking classes, "I think it'll be fun to compete." And you fucking flip him on his head and break his arm in an arm bar in like 15 seconds. Like, that's sandbagging. Cause you're an elite athlete. You're a, you're like a world-class judo guy that's just thought it would be fun to be, put a white belt on and enter into a jujitsu tournament. There's people that do that because they just want to win. That's why people cheat at video games. That's why people cheat at golf, right? People cheat because they want to win. They just want to get that W. And there will be, there's people that will pretend they're a woman to beat up women.

• 1:18:10Joe Rogan?

  And if you don't think that's the case, you haven't met enough psychos. Because are there people that are in the wrong body? I don't know. I'll, I'll give them that respect. I'll give them that dignity. Are there also people that are out of their fucking mind and want a, a excuse to beat up women and pretend they're a woman? If you tell them they could wear a dress and they could just run past all the ladies and dominate them on the field? Yeah, they're gonna do that too. That's a, that's a real type of human being. And if you don't have an accurate test for that, if you don't have a thing you make them lick, oh, you're a fucking psycho. If you don't have that, then you have to judge each individual situation based entirely on why would someone do this?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  How much crossover would that be? If, if somebody was a, a, a black belt in judo, how much crossover is there to presume?

• 1:18:57Joe Rogan?

  An immense amount.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  An immense.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:01Joe Rogan?

  An immense, immense, immense, immense, immense amount. Especially if it's a gi tournament, oh my god, you're virtually helpless. Helpless.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Even though judo's primarily done on the feet?

• 1:19:12Joe Rogan?

  It is, but they do arm bars, they do. So look at Ronda Rousey. She has one of the best arm bars in the history of the sport. Look at Kayla Harrison. Look at all these, look at Carl Parisian. There's elite judo people that were wizards at arm bars, wizards at chokes and leg locks and of course, they're, they're submitting each other as well. It's not exactly the same. And if they went like gi to gi with, you know, some prime Leo Vieira, black belt, you know, gi master, you know, one of... You likely would give the jujitsu person a giant advantage because they'd spend way more time submitting people. They've spent way more time working on submissions. So judo to

• 1:19:57Joe Rogan?

  jujitsu in a tournament, I would say, black belt to black belt, they probably have a disadvantage in judo. But a huge advantage over a white belt.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  What do you think about Jake Paul Anthony Joshua?

• 1:20:10Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 1:20:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, realistically, it's one of the craziest propositions of all time. You take a guy who just had a boxing match that looks like a sparring match with a 58-year-old Mike Tyson, and then you're gonna fight one of the absolute scariest knockout artists in the heavyweight division. Maybe we should watch the Francis Ngano fight. So you could see, let's watch that real quick. Just so you could see what Anthony Joshua is capable if he's fighting someone that's not in his league. Okay, look, Usik beat him, and he beat him twice, and Andy Ruiz caught him in the first fight and dropped him and stopped him. It was spectacular. Andy Ruiz

• 1:21:00Joe Rogan?

  is super fucking talented. Usik is perhaps the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. Maybe one of the, maybe, maybe one of the greatest of all time in any weight class, Usik. You know, and Usik beat him, and he beat him twice. But Francis Ngano is coming off of this fight with, like, go a little bit before that so we could see this happen. Watch this. So he drops him with a right hand early, and this is like, two minutes into the first round. And Francis gets up, he survives, and then Joshua, check out this, this combination

• 1:21:39Joe Rogan?

  he hits him with. I mean, dude, the speed that he hits him with this?

• 1:21:48Joe Rogan?

  He's so dangerous, man. It's like, you're dealing with a guy who's an Olympic gold medalist, and he's enormous, and he's got vicious knockout power, and he's got immense amount of experience at world-class levels. Just think about what we said earlier. Fought Usik twice, fought Andy Ruiz twice.

• 1:22:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, man. Bro, the timing in that right hand, just spectacular.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  That's stepping in as well.

• 1:22:18Joe Rogan?

  Over the top. I mean, that was a full four shot to the temple. I mean, he's, he's Fuxville right now. So, they wipe off his gloves, but you look at him like he's, he's really feeling it right now. I mean, he probably has no idea where he is, and Anthony Joshua.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my god, absolutely folded in half.

• 1:22:37Joe Rogan?

  Watch, back that up again, watch this. I mean, just steps into it with every ounce of his body. Perfect right hand. So, the fact that Jake Paul wants to fight that guy, hey, I'll watch. I'm gonna watch, I'm definitely gonna watch, so you got me there. And if you want to show you're legit, uh, by taking on one of the scariest fucking heavyweights alive.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Can you get the tail of the tape of the, of, uh, Paul and Joshua?

• 1:23:07Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, he has to, they got him to weigh a grade of 245, that's only like 7 pounds less.

• 1:23:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's nothing, but, and there's some sort of a rehydration clause. Listen, kids, it ain't gonna matter. You know, there's not a chance that Anthony Joshua is not going to just lose the weight beforehand. He's not gonna come in drained, what he's gonna do is just do extra cardio. And that's just gonna make him more dangerous. He's gonna be terrifying, and he's gonna have a lot to prove. He's gonna be very angry that Jake Paul wants to fight him. Very upset that this YouTuber who's fought Tommy Fury, who's a legit boxer, and you know, a couple other guys that were legit boxers, that's it. Like, everyone else he's fought, he's fought Ben Askren, who was really a wrestler. You know, he fought Tyron Woodley, who was an elite MMA fighter, but, you know, not an elite boxer. He fought Nate Robinson, who was a basketball player, at least he's fought these guys.

• 1:23:56Joe Rogan?

  He fought Anderson Silva, and he dropped Anderson Silva, and Anderson Silva's a really good striker, but also in his 40s, you know, different time. It's, you know, not the same guy he used to be. This is, this, this is a 34-year-old Anthony Joshua, this is a terrifying human being, terrifying.

• 1:24:13Joe Rogan?

  Again, a guy who survived Usik twice. You know, you saw what Usik did to Dubois. You see Usik take out Dubois? Did you see that?

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:24:20Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's the Usik you're talking about. There's an Usik that rocked Tyson Fury, who's fucking 6'9".

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  So Jake Paul's 6'1", versus 6'6 Anthony Joshua. Jake weighed in for the Tyson fight at 199.

• 1:24:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Joshua against Nganu was 252.

• 1:24:37Joe Rogan?

  6'6". Just not just 6'6", but 6'6" and knows how to use every fucking inch of it. Knows how to keep that stick in your face. He was keep that jab in his face and that right hand, if it hits you, you're fucked. And he's not worried about you the way he's worried about Usik. You can't move like Usik. You can't constantly be frustrating and overloading his nervous system. Usik is overloading every aspect of your senses at every moment. He's constantly moving and then punches are coming and he loops punches around your guard and he's constantly shifting his feet and you think he's gonna be there and he's over here. And it's like this overload of thinking.

• 1:25:19Joe Rogan?

  It's not a casual, relaxed fight where you can kind of move around and get your groove and he's gonna stay on the outside and you're gonna... No, it's just constant. He survived that guy twice. He survived, in my opinion, the most skillful heavyweight of all time, twice. And you're gonna go boxing? And the toughest guy you fought before was 40-years-old Anderson Silva? Those the toughest guys so far you fought? You've lost to Tommy Fury, who's a very good boxer, but this is a giant Olympic gold medalist heavyweight. I mean, Anthony Joshua is fucking terrifying.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  He's the thing that nightmares are made of.

• 1:25:54Joe Rogan?

  And he's got that one punch nuclear power. One punch. And he's fast. It's an explo... Like, there's certain guys... That like in kickboxing couldn't translate over to MMA because they didn't have the kind of speed like Peter Ertz is a good example. He was a world-class kickboxer, one of the best of all time, but didn't have the style that would allow him to train. But then there was Mirko Krokop. Mirko Krokop, who was violently explosive, would perfectly transition to MMA because you gotta be able to hit people quick. It was like a big part of it is speed. Anthony Joshua has that kind of speed.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  With 252 pounds behind him.

• 1:26:37Joe Rogan?

  If you don't have the skill to get away from that kind of power, what happens is Francis Ngato and Anthony Joshua. You have to be a very, you can't judge that guy based on Dubois, who's a fucking murderer. Daniel Dubois is a tank and he took out Joshua, but that guy's fucking terrifying. You're staring in front of that guy, but Usik didn't stand in front of him. Usik moved all over the place. Joshua is, and he's gonna have a lot to prove, he's gonna be very angry.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Do you think they'll let everybody take the brakes off because there's all rumors about Tyson versus Jake that both of them were sort of pulling punches and not fully letting it go?

• 1:27:13Joe Rogan?

  I think that's a different deal, you know?

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  Do you think there was something probably just below the table?

• 1:27:18Joe Rogan?

  I do not know. I do not know if it was said, I did not know if it was understood, I do not know.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  In your professional opinion, based on what you saw, do you think that the people were holding back?

• 1:27:28Joe Rogan?

  It definitely looked like sparring, but it could be that he didn't want to hurt Mike Tyson because Mike Tyson's 58 years old, or it could be that Mike Tyson didn't want to hurt him because he likes him. I don't fucking know.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  You.

• 1:27:41Joe Rogan?

  But it wasn't what I was tuning in for.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Was not for me. I was there, I went, I went to it live.

• 1:27:46Joe Rogan?

  I was tuning in for Mike Tyson coming full 1988 Mike Tyson, full chaos. That's what I was hoping for.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  He walked out like that.

• 1:27:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it looked like it, yeah, but that's what everybody signed up for. So they got us, whatever.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  And do you think that-

• 1:28:00Joe Rogan?

  This is different. I don't think this is that. I don't think this is that at all. First of all, it can't be that, because Joshua is still competitive in the heavyweight division. And he's only doing this for money. Like, he's still set up for world title fights. After he knocked out Ngano, you could still set him up like Joseph Parker just lost. You could set him up with Joseph Parker. You could have, until a year ago, he could fight Deontay Wilder.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  You're saying that the lineage and the trajectory that Anthony Joshua is on, if he happens to go a little bit too gentle and lose by decision to Jake Paul, it doesn't exactly look great for his future heavyweight chance.

• 1:28:31Joe Rogan?

  It fucks up all of his marketing opportunities.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  So that's a really, so what we were saying before-

• 1:28:35Joe Rogan?

  The Ngano fight is a godsend to him, right? The Ngano fight is like, hey, boxing's back. This guy knocked down Tyson Fury. This is how it was supposed to go. Anthony Joshua, you carried the torch for the boxing community. Because I know a lot of like, straight up boxers, and they absolutely felt that way. Like, this is what needed to happen. These guys can't come over from MMA and think they can box the best.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you need to put them in their place. It's a, what's great there, and it loops back to what we were talking about before, is incentives, incentives, align the incentives.

• 1:29:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Like, if you've got Joshua's, I mean, this is-

• 1:29:06Joe Rogan?

  However, I should, I should-

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Caveat.

• 1:29:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Here's the caveat. This might earn him $200 million. So if it earns him so much money-

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Joshua or Jake Paul?

• 1:29:18Joe Rogan?

  Joshua. Like, either one. How much money is involved?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  $200 million?

• 1:29:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh dude, this is a Saudi organization, right? This is Riyadh season, isn't this? That was putting this on?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Probably. They seem to own everything. I think they own me now. And you, and Jamie, and Carl.

• 1:29:33Joe Rogan?

  It's Netflix, right?

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:29:35Joe Rogan?

  This is gonna be on Netflix, okay? So I don't know, maybe it's not, maybe Riyadh season's not involved. But the money they threw Canelo Alvarez to get him to fight Terrence Crawford, this is, like, they're throwing insane money at people. They're throwing nutty sums of cash at people to make amazing fights happen. Like, this is, this has always been the hiccup in boxing, is that people don't want to fight certain people because they want to protect their record. The Saudis are like, "How much?"

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Everybody's got a price.

• 1:30:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, everyone's got a price.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  And we've got the bank account to pay it.

• 1:30:03Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. The reported total prize purse for Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua is 184 million, with an even split expected, meaning each fighter will earn approximately 92 million. Some reports initially suggest a different figure, 184 is the most frequently cited total from sources like Daily Mail and Wikipedia. Okay, that doesn't mean anything. Some have also mentioned Jake Paul's cryptic 267 million dollar tweet, which may have fueled rumors. I'd... Listen, it really depends on who's setting it up. Netflix doesn't have to tell you how much they're paying, but the thing about Anthony Joshua, if he loses this, if he... So let's say he's only getting the 92 million, which I bet he's getting more. Let's say he's getting 92 million.

• 1:30:48Joe Rogan?

  If he loses this fight, he misses out on that Saudi money. Because they could set up a Tyson Fury-Antony Joshua fight, and each one of them gets 200 million dollars. You can... You could do a fight like that. The Saudis can do a fight like that. They can do a fight, they have enough resources to throw at boxing, where they could change the entire landscape of boxing.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  If you were the guy that stands in between 6'6", 250-pound Anthony Joshua and 200 million dollars?

• 1:31:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 1:31:21Joe Rogan?

  He's not gonna... I don't think he's gonna lose to you on purpose.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I don't want to be that guy.

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  But I'm not saying that anybody lost to anybody on purpose. I don't think that's happened. But what I do think is that people take it easier on people if they like them, and it looked like they were taking it easier on each other than you'd expect. I'll just say that. It's just my personal opinion. I don't think that's gonna happen with this fight. I don't think there's any chance in the world, knowing what Anthony Joshua is a specialist at, he's a specialist at putting knuckles through your fucking brain, you know? And that's what he's gonna try to do to Jake Paul. And anything other than that, from a 34-year-old Anthony Joshua, will make us all think it's a fixed fight. Whether or not Josh can do it, whether or not, I mean Jake Paul shocks the world and shows us that he really does know how to box really well and moves really good and

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  uses his jab and blows us all away with a strategy and a lot of footwork and movement and brings Usik into his camp and, or Lomachenko's dad even better, who's the guy who trained Usik, he trained Usik as well. Lomachenko's father, that's why they both are the best moving fighters in this generation by far, by far. They're, they're in a group of the greatest of all time, like Willie Pep and Purnell Whitaker. There's like a group of like defensive wizards that exist today that are, they're in that group. And two of them that exist in that group are trained by the same guy. Lomachenko and Usik.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  I don't want to be Jake Paul. That's what I am.

• 1:32:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fuck that.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  I do not want to be.

• 1:32:51Joe Rogan?

  But what better way to show the world you're legit? Go get knocked out by Olympic gold medalist, former world heavyweight champion, six foot six, 250 pounds.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean it's a wonderful.

• 1:33:01Joe Rogan?

  Show the world you're, you're in it to win it.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  You're definitely not fucking about. I had this guy in my podcast, Bugsy Malone, so he's a British grime artist and he had this home.

• 1:33:09Joe Rogan?

  What's a grime artist?

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Like a, like drill, rap, like British rap.

• 1:33:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. Did you know what that means? You did?

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Keep up with the times.

• 1:33:17Joe Rogan?

  I can't, it's too late. I missed it, I missed everything.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  He grows up in the north of the UK in gangs, Manchester, and he's in juvenile detention. He's a teenager, he gets stabbed with a screwdriver, like rough stuff, rough, rough northern stuff. But some part of his upbringing just sort of really compels him to try and bring himself out of this situation. Starts making music, gets super successful, does this Fire in the Booth with Charlie Sloth that gets like 35 million plays. And he starts boxing. Boxing is like one of his salvages, it's one of his safe havens and it's the thing, one of the things that's kept him very disciplined throughout his whole life. He starts accumulating some money and he buys a nice house in Manchester, a very, very nice house. And the local kids nearby sort of. Starting to take a little bit of notice, maybe they know who he is as an artist and

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  word starts to get around that he's living there. And there'd been some concerns, some security concerns for a little while. And he gets a phone call from his girlfriend at the time. She says, there's some men here, they're trying to break in and they're in a van. And as she's on the phone, he hears the glass shatter of this house. His mum's in the house and his girlfriend at the time is in the house. He's driving around, he's got his sister in the car. So he drives back in the car. This is a guy who's like world famous as a rapper, right? This would be like happening to like the British 50 Cent or the British Jay-Z or P Diddy or something like that.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Drives back, getting down the driveway toward this house. There's a blockade, there's boulders that have been laid out in front. So he knows that there's going to be an ambush of some kind. And he sees this guy in the bushes on the right with a brick. This guy's hiding in the bushes waiting and he thinks he's going to throw it through the window, but he doesn't, he wants to hit him with the brick. So Bugsy stops the car, opens the door and immediately, he's massively into Jordan Peterson, personal development, self-growth. It's like an odd blend of rough upbringing, self-discipline and sort of transcendent personal growth. And he gets out of the car and points at the guy and he goes, no way is that you? Is that a blue t-shirt? And the guy's like, and as he's doing it, because he's been training so much, he's coming toward him, distracting him, the same way as I go, what's on that t-shirt there? Immediately you go, and before he knew it, Bugsy's hit him, spun him around, brick's

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  fallen out of his hand because this guy hasn't set his feet in time. It's a problem of having a big weapon. Bugsy said like, you need to set yourself and you need to be able to throw it like it's good because it can hurt someone, but it's slow and it's cumbersome and you can't move as fast. And he's training every day, every single day, no matter whether he's rapping, he's on tour, he's training and he's boxing and he's fighting and he's sharp. He knows his distance, hits this guy, they have a scrap. Bugsy wins, moves the stuff out of the way, gets back in the car, drives in. Jamie, can you just CCTV search, search Bugsy Malone CCTV? So there's footage from his house of when he pulls up in the Mercedes. And so go back, back, back a little bit. Yeah, just to the start.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  So this is him pulling in, in his car, having just beaten someone up. This is a van filled with guys, gets out of the car, pulls his top off.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  And then sprints to go and get the rest of the guys that are waiting outside. That is not the behavior of a dude who gives a single fuck. This is the British Jay-Z ripping his top off and then sprinting out to try and chase people away. And the real kicker of it, there was like

• 1:36:33Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. Putting together a good wardrobe isn't actually that hard. You just need the right pieces and that's where Quince comes in. Quince is all about creating quality, versatile clothing with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from just $60 and organic cotton tees that are soft and breathable. Personally, I got a bunch of their stuff and I love it. I really love the fleece pullover hoodie and the flow knit breeze performance tees. They're, they have really simple, smooth designs, perfect for recording sessions or my workouts. I, I like wearing them on stage. It's just great quality clothing and it's cool how Quince still gives you luxury quality,

• 1:37:17Joe Rogan?

  but without the insane markup. Find your new fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com/rogan. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash rogan. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try.

• 1:38:01Joe Rogan?

  In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23. Per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Of guys, not in that van, but in some other van behind. The real kicker was the dudes that he fought. They press charges.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  They press charges against him.

• 1:38:51Joe Rogan?

  Because he's rich.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  They press charges because he fucked him up.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  And then at at.

• 1:38:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they press charges.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  They press charges.

• 1:39:01Joe Rogan?

  Did they actually wind up going to court over this?

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:05Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Yep, went to court. And this is, it was so brilliant. He told this story to me and he said.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  It was the middle of COVID and people weren't sure whether venues were going to be open. And he had this tour, this tour was going on, but it wasn't selling as well. No tours were selling as well as he would have liked. So he spoke to his lawyer before his lawyer went to go and do the not guilty verdict. And they had two statements that were ready. He came out, he said, very pleased to say that Aaron Davies has been acquitted today. He's not been found guilty. He is now getting back to preparing for his upcoming tour and tickets are available now.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  His lawyer did a mid roll ad read.

• 1:39:47Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  As part of his not guilty verdict, having just beaten up like a van filled with blokes. One of whom looked like a plumber. It was your plumber comment that got me thinking about it like just some white belt that decide, you know, some guy that thinks he's a bit hard. Like he's had a little bit of a throw and this guy's training every single day, sharpening his skills. And he's been doing it since he was a kid.

• 1:40:06Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  And he's dangerous and he's nasty.

• 1:40:08Joe Rogan?

  It's wonderful when a story like that works out. In America, people have guns. It's a different, different sport.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Have you looked at appropriate force in the UK? Do you know what that is? The use of appropriate force?

• 1:40:20Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of that in America as well.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:23Joe Rogan?

  Depending state, state by state, they have different. There's different standards, the different states impose like Florida, stand your ground. Florida, you just get away with killing people.

• 1:40:33Joe Rogan?

  California, it's very different. They were actually trying to pass a thing in California saying it's your obligation to leave your house if someone breaks into it. I don't know if that got through. It's your obligation to not shoot them, that you can't, you can't harm them because they're just trying to steal something, they're not trying to harm you. Like the assumption should be that they're-

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  You know that they're not trying to harm you.

• 1:40:54Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. It's, I've had this conversation with people on the podcast, but actually with Tommy Chong, it was a mind numbing conversation. That, you know, you should not think of this person as trying to attack you, that their life is not less valuable than yours. It's just as valuable as your life. You shouldn't take their life with a gun.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Despite the fact that they're on your property.

• 1:41:15Joe Rogan?

  Despite the fact that, despite the fact, I can't talk, despite the fact rather that historically, a lot of people have broken into people's houses and killed them. It's happened over and over and over again, and you're just assuming that this time is going to be different. Because they just want your watch or whatever. Like fuck off. Like this is, that's a dumb way to live. Like you, you have to be able to protect yourself. There's crazy people, that's a real thing.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the, the appropriate force thing becomes interesting in the UK where you don't have as many guns. Because there's more levels of weapon in between nothing, just hands.

• 1:41:48Joe Rogan?

  Baseball bat and samurai sword.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, this guy's got a brick, so you're allowed to brick, but if you bring a gun to a knife fight, that's not appropriate force.

• 1:41:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he only had a knife.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:59Joe Rogan?

  You cheated.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, I don't know, it's very gentlemanly.

• 1:42:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh god. So stupid.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Well, the UK's got like some odd, um, archaic laws, like the distance between the front benches in the House of Commons is the same as two broadswords held out at arms length. Which is just so funny.

• 1:42:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's also why you guys drive on the other side of the road, right?

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:42:24Joe Rogan?

  I think you drive on the left side of the road so you can use your right arm to slash each other.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  No way.

• 1:42:29Joe Rogan?

  With a sword. Yeah, I believe that's what it is.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  What, in case you were jousting in a vehicle?

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  Someone, if you're on a horse or if you're in a car, someone's, you want to be able to get them on that side, that's the strong side.

• 1:42:41Joe Rogan?

  Someone told me that when I was over there. I hope I'm not, I'm not incorrect.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  I like it as a story, whether it's right or wrong, I don't care. There's a reason that women's shirts button from the left and not the right. If you ever accidentally put your wife's hoodie on instead, it goes in the...

• 1:42:55Joe Rogan?

  Middle Ages, you knew you were going to meet when traveling on horseback. Most people are right-handed, so if a stranger passed the right of you, your right hand would be free to use your sword if required. Yeah, that's why you guys do it with your cars.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  Well, this is the problem. If you don't have a medieval country like ours, you end up driving on the other side of the road. But yeah, so women's shirts, if you've ever accidentally put your wife's hoodie on or something, zipped it up, women's shirts button from the other side. They button from the left, not the right. The reason for that is that when buttons were first introduced in the 1700s, they were mostly for the aristocracy and the aristocratic women were dressed by mostly right-handed servants.

• 1:43:33Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  So they dressed them this way, so the women's shirts button for... If you put a...

• 1:43:39Joe Rogan?

  Still to this day?

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Same thing. Dude, I promise you now, anybody that's watching, any guy that's watching, go and put your wife's shirt on, this is how it begins. Go and put your wife's shirt on and see, it doesn't fold that way.

• 1:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  It folds the other way.

• 1:43:50Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  And you have to push the buttons through with your left hand. How fucking cool is that?

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  And it's the same with hoodies. You know, we zip our hoodies with our right hand. Girls zip their hoodies with their left hand.

• 1:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  So fucking cool.

• 1:44:04Joe Rogan?

  Weird.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  One other element is the gentlemen of the days, they would have a sword on the left hip drawn by the right hand. The way that our shirts are put together at the moment, it can't get caught in the folds because the left fold is over the top of the right. So as you draw it, there's no chance that the hilt would get caught.

• 1:44:24Joe Rogan?

  So if you're a left-handed person, you have to wear women's clothes?

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  That might actually explain more than you think.

• 1:44:30Joe Rogan?

  Probably.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  So this is an example of path dependency, so what you're talking about, like some shit from the past that influences the future. Querty keyboards.

• 1:44:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 1:44:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know that one.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Typewriters, yeah. So it was made to be inefficient to slow people down. And if you take a normal typer from a querty keyboard and put them on some other formulation that's allowed, they're like 50 to 70% faster. So we're still using a designed to be inefficient keyboard. Because if you type too quickly on a typewriter and you use letters that are close together, the typewriter jams, so the letters that were used most frequently were put out onto the edges and it wasn't, it was less often that you were gonna put two next to each other so that they wouldn't jam.

• 1:45:13Joe Rogan?

  I don't know a single person who's switched to a different type of keyboard, do you?

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  No, no one.

• 1:45:18Joe Rogan?

  But they do make them.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  Lex Friedman's got some like weird, super nerd thing.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, but his is just separated. He's just got a separated, it's still querty.

• 1:45:25Speaker 03

  Like this?

• 1:45:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:27Speaker 03

  It's almost like a...

• 1:45:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's kind of interesting, but that's not the point. The point is the layout of the keys in a regular keyboard. There's other layouts, so there's, it's not just querty's unavailable. You could actually buy keyboards that have the most efficient layout. I forget what the name of it is.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  I think it might be the dactyl thing, hot swap dactyl.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  I think that's it.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  At the very top.

• 1:45:46Joe Rogan?

  I think that's it. I think.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Up and right. Yeah. Hot swap dactyl.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  Oh, it's still a querty keyboard.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  It's still querty.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Fuck, we can't get away from it.

• 1:45:59Joe Rogan?

  So there's...

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Other layouts.

• 1:46:00Joe Rogan?

  If you could search what styles of key, what is the most efficient layout of keys for typing speed?

• 1:46:08Speaker 03

  That's what I do.

• 1:46:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Speaker 03

  That's what I ask. This, what's coming up? This shit is way faster than typing.

• 1:46:14Joe Rogan?

  Okay, yeah, right, right, right, but that's a different, that's a different thing.

• 1:46:18Speaker 03

  It's fastest type, fastest keyboard for typing.

• 1:46:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow. You can type, hold on, let's look at that for a second.

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  You haven't seen this before?

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:46:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like the directions, they, I'll show you on a demo.

• 1:46:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  This is crazy.

• 1:46:34Joe Rogan?

  And each one of those is a letter? And some of them you like...

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  You can like make words real fast.

• 1:46:44Joe Rogan?

  So this is a, what we're talking about right here is a totally different device than a keyboard. But what I mean is like, there's another keyboard layout that super nerds use. Like a tiny amount, like the kind of people that have like, they have those Google phones that don't connect to the servers, you know?

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Eric Prince make those?

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  No, it's a different one. He's got his own.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh, just that path dependency thing, like shit from the past that's still influencing us now.

• 1:47:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Why your shirt is going in the other direction.

• 1:47:14Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty crazy. Oh, so here it is.

• 1:47:38Joe Rogan?

  I wonder how much of a learning curve there is to figuring out how to type with that thing, because it looks pretty dope. Ooh, they have different ones? Scroll up to that image at the top. That's a different one.

• 1:47:50Speaker 03

  I think it's the same, it's just a...

• 1:47:52Joe Rogan?

  But shape different.

• 1:47:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, just like made out of metal.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's a different shape.

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  You probably put your hand, well, maybe, put your hands on it the same way.

• 1:48:00Joe Rogan?

  It's very different. The other one was curved.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  The problem that you have is like...

• 1:48:03Joe Rogan?

  Is this the new one? The Forge, the Master Forge. Let me see what you got here.

• 1:48:07Speaker 03

  It's not showing anybody who uses it. That's how I was trying to find a good video of someone using it to show you how they type like words really fast.

• 1:48:12Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a matter of time before you're typing with your brain anyway. I think this is like learning to code.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think about this with prompt engineering. Like, if AI gets progressively better and better, the idea of being a prompt engineer, I understand how to get the AI to do what I want, is a job that only shortly after it becomes a job, might be made completely obsolete.

• 1:48:35Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, that, that's not gonna work.

• 1:48:40Joe Rogan?

  That's like opening up a Blockbuster video in 1999. It's too, you don't, they have so little time.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  Well, the problem that you have with the QWERTY keyboard thing is it's a coordination problem. Like, if you want to borrow your friend's laptop, you're ba, unless everybody decides, we're gonna switch to the better type of keyboard and we're gonna do it now.

• 1:48:57Joe Rogan?

  There you go. Oh, here he goes. He's moving it.

• 1:48:59Speaker 03

  He's typing it right there. That's, he's typing these words as he's...

• 1:49:01Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:49:02Speaker 03

  Looking at the screen.

• 1:49:02Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit. How's he doing that? That guy's a fucking genius, though.

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  Up to like 300 words a minute, I think people can get to.

• 1:49:09Joe Rogan?

  And, but here's the question. Like, how do you learn? Do you have to play a game? Do you ever do that, like Mavis Bacon's typing? Do you do that?

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  No, what was that?

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  It's fun. It's a game you play. It teaches you how to type.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Teaches you how to type faster?

• 1:49:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you like type things that they tell you to type. They time you like a race. It's like fun.

• 1:49:27Speaker 03

  So he's like hitting all these letters at once. I think with his fingers, you could see him popping up and then it creates the word. I think it's a little bit of a mixture of like, remember the T9 typing you could do on your phone?

• 1:49:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  And you could like, you could hit four, four numbers and you'd, you know what word it would be. And if it wasn't that word, you'd hit next like three times.

• 1:49:44Joe Rogan?

  Can you?

• 1:49:45Speaker 03

  You could get really good at that. I think it's a little, I think it's a mixture.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Predictive.

• 1:49:47Joe Rogan?

  Could you rewind that again so I could see him doing that? Is that, can you give me some volume so I could hear what he's saying? There's no question that typing sentences at over 200 words per minute is extremely satisfying, but does typing fast actually transfer to productivity in the real world? That's the question we'll be answering together in today's video. Does typing speed really matter? That's nuts.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:50:14Joe Rogan?

  He just did that. Wow. And he made but large.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:19Joe Rogan?

  Like he, he made it all caps. Like, how?

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  I suppose this is kind of.

• 1:50:23Joe Rogan?

  I need to know if that dude's Rain Man. You know what I'm saying? I need, I need to ask him some questions about math.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh, it's mad to think how quickly we can think and how slowly we can communicate that to other people, even with speech, right?

• 1:50:37Joe Rogan?

  Can you just please, uh, search, is there a more efficient key layout than QWERTY? Because that's what I'm looking for. Cause I know there is. Cause I, I remember I, I went down a rabbit hole with this and I was really thinking about trying it. And then I was like, God, what are you doing?

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  You'd have to change your phone.

• 1:50:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And it wasn't phone days. This was way before phone days. This was the days of just typing. More efficient keyboard layout than QWERTY. That's it. Dvorak. That's it. Puts about 60 to, uh, 65 to 70 cent of keystrokes in the home row versus, uh, roughly 30 on QWERTY. So fingers move. Much less. So now that we know that, can you search for images of Dvorak keyboard? So that's what the keys look like right there. Oh, that's it right there. See how different that is?

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:51:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, very different.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  How long do you reckon it would take you to write out a short email?

• 1:51:31Joe Rogan?

  It would take forever. My stupid fingers would go right back to where they always go. You know, that was one of the things that I learned really early on from teaching martial arts. I was, I way would rather, I would way rather teach someone who didn't know anything than teach someone who learned things wrong. Because someone who learned things wrong, it's very difficult to correct their technique. They have a mode in their mind that they shift to when they're panicky or when they're being pressured. They always go back to the bad technique, always. It's very hard to get someone to learn technique correctly when they know it incorrectly. You gotta reteach them everything. You see it with, you see it with pool. There's a certain tendencies that people have with their arm being out.

• 1:52:14Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people just accept the bad relationship between your elbow and your, as long as it's consistent. Even though it's more inefficient, it's gonna add extra English to the ball and spin and all these different, and probably make you less accurate. Maybe better that than try to like make your arm drop down and hang 90% because it'll feel so alien. But that's way less than in martial arts. In martial arts, like, god. If you learn how to throw a sidekick with your knee down versus your knee up, it's so hard to do it the other way. When you're being pressured, you're always gonna do it the wrong way and you're not gonna have the correct amount of power. And those tendencies that are burned into you.

• 1:52:55Joe Rogan?

  I've been typing for 30 fucking years. Like, they are, I don't have to look at a keyboard. I can just talk to you and I can type and I'm not really good, but I'm good enough, you know? I don't look at the keys. Like, I don't have to peck. Like, I used to go, it used to drive me crazy watching videos of Hunter Thompson who never learned how to type. He would type like this. He would type with like one finger at a time, poke and peck. I'm like, dude, it would take so little time for you to just put your fucking fingers there and learn how to do that right. He never did. He poked and pecked his way to some of the greatest fucking books ever.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Maybe that was a performance enhancer. But yeah, I, uh...

• 1:53:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was poking and pecking when he was on coke.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  That's true, yeah. It's probably for the best that you didn't type more quickly. Imagine the crazy shit that would've come out of him then.

• 1:53:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, yeah. You ever seen him type? It's so frustrating.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  No, can we see? Is it videos?

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:53:46Joe Rogan?

  Find Hunter Thompson typing. Yeah, you'll you'll see it's pokey pecky. And Johnny Depp actually mimicked it really accurately in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. When he's sitting in front of the thing like pecking, yeah, like

• 1:54:02Joe Rogan?

  doing his Hunter Thompson impression.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  Doing his Jack Sparrow thing?

• 1:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Pecking and poking, yeah.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Well, your brain can think at about 4,000 words a minute. And that's the same rate of fire as an M134 machine gun.

• 1:54:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  So, anything, even and it's your point of very soon, I think that keyboards are gonna be obsolete. When you think about how much fucking fidelity and speed is lost with you going from brain to thumb. It's like, I wonder what another type of keyboard is. And you've got to think, okay, what, how do I convert this into words? Where am I gonna go? Open the app, type the, oh crap, man, fucking keyboard, keyboard.

• 1:54:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  It is so slow.

• 1:54:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Compared with when we just get neural linked up to each other.

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and I'm sure you've seen that demonstration where the two guys are sitting across from each other and they have the headsets on, they're asking each other question and answering the questions without using words.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  No, I've not seen that.

• 1:54:55Joe Rogan?

  You ever seen that? Alright, we'll show you that next. Show you that. What were we just looking up now?

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  I can't, I find pictures of him typing, but not video of him typing.

• 1:55:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God, I know I've seen it.

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Thinking of it from the movie. Let me get to the bathroom.

• 1:55:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen, it's time to pee. Uh, where were we?

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Somebody typing like a grandma.

• 1:55:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the Hunter Thompson thing, you couldn't really find it. You got Johnny Depp doing it? Okay, this is how he typed. This is a completely accurate, this is a great video, by the way, you should listen to this. It's really, it's an amazing piece. You gotta cut it out?

• 1:55:25Speaker 03

  It never comes again. On a good old YouTube.

• 1:55:27Joe Rogan?

  Ah, okay, we'll cut it out, but that's it, that's how he, that's how he poked. He poked and pecked like that. So that's how Hunter Thompson used to type.

• 1:55:37Joe Rogan?

  Out of his fucking bird, just poking.

• 1:55:40Speaker 03

  Telepathic video too.

• 1:55:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you found that?

• 1:55:42Speaker 03

  No, I'm not gonna look it up.

• 1:55:43Joe Rogan?

  Okay, this is the crazy one. The telepathic thing is nuts because they have these headsets on. These guys are laughing because they're asking each other questions and they're answering the questions. And they hear the answer in their heads. They hear the, the other person hears the question and then they hear the answer.

• 1:55:58Speaker 03

  So it's a new, I think it's, I don't know if it's a product or what, but it's called Alter Ego. This is the same guy who developed that device where he could, uh, look things up without opening his mouth or talking and just sort of like mimicking the words in his.

• 1:56:14Joe Rogan?

  We all have moments when inspiration strikes.

• 1:56:16Speaker 03

  Doing the same thing, sort of skip past it so he's talking. He's showing it on his own here.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:56:20Speaker 03

  The cool part is when he brings in someone else to talk to. And this guy also has it. So they're communicating.

• 1:56:29Joe Rogan?

  Where do you want to get lunch after this? He's saying.

• 1:56:31Speaker 05

  Where do you want to get lunch after this?

• 1:56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, for the demo, they hooked it up to audio so that the video could hear it.

• 1:56:40Speaker 05

  Thai food could be good.

• 1:56:42Joe Rogan?

  So they're laughing because their words are being. It doesn't matter where Arnab and I are. It could be a noisy environment. So would they hear? Look at this, yeah. Having a direct conversation is possible. It could be a noisy environment or a quiet office. Having a direct conversation is possible without saying a word. The signals Alter Ego detects aren't affected by environmental noise. So even if you're walking past a wind tunnel or a construction zone, what you want to say will always get across. It's like having infinite noise cancellations. Exactly what people say happens when they encounter aliens.

• 1:57:14Speaker 03

  Telepathy.

• 1:57:15Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, exactly. Someone's talking in your head and you hear it.

• 1:57:21Joe Rogan?

  So imagine this technology scaled out a thousand years and they probably don't need the other person to have a headset anymore.

• 1:57:30Joe Rogan?

  And they just.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Would make for an interesting podcast.

• 1:57:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  And you could just tune in and nobody needs to actually listen to anything. So where's the sound? Are they hearing the sound in a set of headphones?

• 1:57:40Speaker 03

  It's hard to, not headphones.

• 1:57:42Joe Rogan?

  No, they're, it's, they know it, right? They're not hearing it.

• 1:57:47Speaker 03

  I honestly.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  I understand how, I don't understand, but I get.

• 1:57:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause if it was really loud, then you wouldn't be able to hear it.

• 1:57:53Speaker 03

  So yeah, for the, for the demo we just watched, they have hooked up to a speaker so you still have to, we can hear what they're hearing. But I think if anything, it's gotta be some sort of jaw induction, but I don't know that for sure.

• 1:58:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's weird earphones that you could put on that don't go in your ear. They go behind your ear and they send the sound into your dome.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  People use that for running, right? So they can still hear the sound that's going around them.

• 1:58:14Joe Rogan?

  Fucking creeps hiding in the bushes.

• 1:58:16Speaker 01

  So they can hear the creeps so they can get ready for them.

• 1:58:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh my, you know Cam Haynes, right? My buddy Cam? His brother almost got killed by a mountain lion. Crazy story. He put it on his Instagram. The day, the next day, like he talked about the story, what happened. He was running and there was a mountain lion in the bushes. And at first he thought it was a coyote. He just saw the eyes, he yelled and then stood up and he realized it was a cat. And it started running after him and he's running at night. It was in California and he kicked rocks at it, he screamed at it.

• 1:58:49Joe Rogan?

  And ultimately there's some dogs barking and he thinks maybe the dogs barking scared the mountain lion off him. But he said it was like, I couldn't have used, this is his quote, he said, I couldn't have used bear spray, even if I had it, because it would have got on me. That's how close it was. Said it was right there, like right on him. So it was the most scary he's ever been in his life.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  I've seen that video of the guy tracking backward.

• 1:59:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  As it's coming toward him.

• 1:59:11Joe Rogan?

  It's ah! It's coming, swinging, yeah.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  Hey, hey!

• 1:59:15Joe Rogan?

  The only thing that gives me comfort about that video, if I was there, is like that thing just wants to scare me. It's not trying to kill me, it wants to scare me. That's a mother that's trying to get you away from the cubs. Because the way it's doing it, it's throwing its arms in the air in a very intimidating way. If an animal is trying to kill you, it wouldn't do that. It'd be running full clip at you and just dive on your neck. That's the difference between a cat that wants to kill you and something that's trying to scare you off. So he was. The problem is you're backing up, right, and the the instincts of these predators. Like if you throw a ball of yarn by a kitten, they dive on that ball of yarn, they can't help themselves. And that's the thing about you backing up or you even you running. It's like you're exciting their prey drive.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're gonna keep tracking you.

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  Right, so you they tell you to stand tall and be loud and make a lot of noise. But there's a fine line between you being a threat and then them being scared off. Like you you being something they have to deal with, depending upon the the distance between each other.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  Oh, that makes so much sense.

• 2:00:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Oh, have you ever had any run ins with?

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  I have never had like an encounter like that, but I I did in the wild. See an enormous mountain lion once, but fortunately it was from inside of a truck. Yeah, me and my friend Colton, we were in Utah, we were taking this turn and it was at dusk. So the sun was setting and he stops the truck and he goes, look at that cat. And we I go where and we'll look over and I see the glowing eyes from the setting sun, the glowing eyes reflecting. Underneath this tree and it's got this pumpkin head, this big fucking. These mandible muscles that just crush things and these massive forearms and it's just sitting, it's a big cat, man. Like I've seen two other mountain lions before, but they were small.

• 2:01:00Joe Rogan?

  Uh, they were like a dog sized. This thing was fucking big.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  You reckon you'd be able to take a dog sized mountain lion or are you still dead?

• 2:01:07Joe Rogan?

  You're dead, yeah, I mean a cat sized cat might fuck you up. A house cat might fuck you up, a bobcat might fuck you up, a mountain lion will kill you. You know, you have you you'd have to be an extraordinary person with weapons to survive a mountain lion hand to hand fight. You'd have to be an extraordinary person who's really fighting to survive and you won't, you don't like, ah, you don't panic at all, you have to be willing to stay calm. This thing's gonna tear your arms apart, it might tear your face apart.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  What did the base say, I mean, you must you hunt all the time and you do, was it like end of September, you went and did another big one?

• 2:01:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, elk hunting, yeah.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  You must have been given whatever the safety briefing that you have at the start of an air like aircraft. Making off is of, hey, man, if you see a this, if you see a this, or if you see a this, these are the ways that you're supposed to behave.

• 2:01:55Joe Rogan?

  No, we don't get any safety briefings.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  But you must have learned it in the past, right? As a part of.

• 2:01:59Joe Rogan?

  Safety briefing, carry a gun, bring a gun with you.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Point at a big scary thing.

• 2:02:03Joe Rogan?

  Even if you're bow hunting, carry a pistol, especially if you're in bear country. If you're in bear country, you can't, you can't depend on this, this mist making their eyes hurt, keeping them off of you, because it might not work.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  I'll just run through it.

• 2:02:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there was a, a recent case in B C where a bear mauled 11 people. And they used bear spray on it, it didn't work. It's real, I think it was a teacher protecting his students. So shout out to that teacher, he got fucked up. But they tried bear spray, bear spray's not effective. My friend John, who lives up in Alberta, he used bear spray on a grizzly once. He said it walked right through, like it was nothing.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Is bear spray basically like hardcore pepper spray?

• 2:02:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like vicious pepper spray, but you're just gonna get a mad bear, you know?

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  Why don't they make more hardcore bear spray then?

• 2:02:52Joe Rogan?

  It's as hardcore as it gets without killing you.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:55Joe Rogan?

  You know, if it gets on you.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  If it's that noxious, noxious, yeah, then you're dead.

• 2:02:58Joe Rogan?

  It's just supposed to be a deterrent, and sometimes it can work. Like, sometimes maybe they're just curious and you spray them and they're like, fuck this guy, and they get out of there. But maybe sometimes, no, you know, because it's, it's like, it's like tasing a guy. You ever see a guy get tased and they just fucking, ah!

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Run through it.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  There's guys who get tased and they just go stiff and they fall down. And I've seen other guys get tased where they rip it right out of their arm. Four people, including children, were hospitalized. A teacher on crutches, second adult with, a second adult with bear spray, and a third person who punched and kicked a grizzly despite serious injuries, are being praised for their actions. Saved a school, a school group attacked by a bear near Bella Culla, British Columbia.

• 2:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Four people, including children, were hospitalized Thursday after a bear attack on students and teachers in the Nuxwalk First Nation while out on a school trip near the, boy, I'm gonna fuck this up. Akwalta School east of the remote community. Oh, so it was a very remote place. Yeah. Bear spray didn't do anything, man. It said, uh, look, uh, nothing phased it, didn't do anything to the bear. Two cans of spray in the eyes of the animal. Look at that. The, they said the teacher unloaded two cans of bear spray into the eyes of the animal, and it didn't do anything.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  It blows my mind that people who have been through something that scary.

• 2:04:21Joe Rogan?

  When the kids were getting attacked, one of my cousins who had his skull ripped ran towards the bear and jumped on it with his bare hands. Holy shit.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  It's pretty hardcore.

• 2:04:30Joe Rogan?

  That's hard, well, that's, that's primal, you know, that's survival in, like, a real situation where you're, like, your, your language goes away.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Another lady, a teacher with crutches was whacking it, hitting it in the eyes, the face, the head, for minutes, and then the bear finally, imagine being on crutches.

• 2:04:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god. You have cr, well, you're just, it's just survival. It's so reptilian. It's like, it's like a savage, savage moment.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  That's what blows my mind about these situations where emotions are running so high, how people are able to come back with any kind of memory at all.

• 2:05:08Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yeah, it's true, yeah.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  Because that amount of adrenaline just completely warps people's memories. I was learning about this, uh, this case from Australia in the seventies. This, uh, lady gets attacked inside of her home, so a guy breaks into the house and assaults her inside of her home, and she identifies this TV psychologist, this guy called Donald Thompson, says it was, this was the person who assaulted me.

• 2:05:33Joe Rogan?

  The TV psychologist?

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  TV psychologist, yeah, yeah, yeah, so she knew this guy from the TV. He was the guy that assaulted me. That night, the police go and they arrest Donald Thompson, take him in. The next day, there's a lineup and the woman positively identifies him. And Donald Thompson's like, that couldn't have been me because I was actually on television in front of a live audience at the time. The arresting officer like scoffs at him and basically says, you might as well have Jesus and the Queen of England as your alibis as well. Like, this is ridiculous. We know that she's been assaulted. We've got photographic evidence of the marks on her. We've done a DNA test, which is going to come back soon. She's positively identified you from the lineup and she called you out before you were

• 2:06:19Speaker 01

  in the lineup as well. Like, you're bang to rights. But there was a wrinkle that when they actually looked at the timing, he was on TV at the time that this was happening. And what had occurred was the woman had had that television program on while the attacker broke in and sexually assaulted.

• 2:06:38Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. And it imprinted that guy's face in her memory.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 2:06:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Blended the attacker's identity with what she was seeing on TV while it happened.

• 2:06:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  And the kicker, Donald Thompson was on TV to discuss an area of psychological speciality that he had, which was the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 2:07:08Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that? There's, someone sent me this video. Give me, pause this for a second. Darren Brown, the psychic. Have you seen the one?

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  British dude.

• 2:07:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Have you seen the one where he, he got a guy to assassinate Stephen Fry?

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 2:07:32Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 2:07:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fuck.

• 2:07:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like got, like MKUltra the guy to take out an assassin.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  Called like the jump or something or the push?

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  Was it the push?

• 2:07:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't remember, but I watched a clip of it the other day. I'm like, this is, this is so crazy that you can actually do this to someone? But it's, and the point of the article that I was reading on, or the, the post on X was, you're, you're telling me that MKUltra has not figured out a way to do this? That you, you can get a guy to do it with cameras, to do it on Stephen Fry, like the comedian?

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  And it, obviously, they, he didn't really kill him, but.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  I had a, oh.

• 2:08:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, here it is. Yeah. So the assassin with Stephen Fry. So, he somehow or another gets this guy to do it. Um, I guess we can't play it, but. The, the point is.

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  Fake gun?

• 2:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Um, I don't remember what he did.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:32Speaker 03

  Oh shit, they acted it all out too.

• 2:08:35Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy.

• 2:08:36Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 2:08:37Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy. So that guy really thought he killed Stephen Fry.

• 2:08:40Speaker 03

  Imagine being in the crowd.

• 2:08:42Joe Rogan?

  How about those people next to him that didn't even flinch? I'd be like, what kind of psychos am I next to?

• 2:08:47Speaker 03

  She's the one whispering to watch. She whispers, she's like, good job. I think she's the one who set him off.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:08:53Speaker 03

  She's in on it.

• 2:08:54Joe Rogan?

  Now, here's the question. Is this, can anybody?

• 2:08:57Speaker 03

  Took the gun.

• 2:08:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, can anybody fall into that kind of a hypnosis? Can, is that?

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  So there's.

• 2:09:03Joe Rogan?

  Only certain people that are suggestible?

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  There's, uh, high, medium, and low suggestibility people. And there's a couple of tests. Uh, Dr. David Spiegel, um, from, at Stanford. He's like, one of the world leaders in hypnosis. And, um, he explained, some people are, uh, more susceptible to hypnosis than others. I have to assume that Darren will have done a profile and this guy is like, really, really susceptible.

• 2:09:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay, what's that about? Why is that around?

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  Susceptibility to hypnosis?

• 2:09:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:32Speaker 01

  So I think that, um, dopamine plays a big part of it. And if you process dopamine more quickly, uh, you are more susceptible. I process dopamine really slowly. I know that from doing some genetic tests. So I know that my susceptibility to hypnosis would be lower. There's some personality traits that make you more or less likely as well. I think agreeableness versus disagreeableness is one of them.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  I think there'll be a sex difference too. I don't know why it's there. It's kind of the same as saying like, why are some people taller than others? Like, they just are. And there's like a byproduct that comes along for the ride.

• 2:10:04Joe Rogan?

  But it's a weird thing to, to, to, to be able to manipulate a person's mind and to have it so clearly.

• 2:10:13Joe Rogan?

  I mean, this is the clearest example of it you're ever gonna see. He just shot a famous person in a room full of people.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  It does feel like a weird backdoor.

• 2:10:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Like, it's like the, those voting systems that can be hacked.

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  Well, there's a

• 2:10:29Joe Rogan?

  Or like those, those cellphone towers they buy from China that turn out to be translating.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Sending everything back to China. I think, uh

• 2:10:38Joe Rogan?

  Why does it exist?

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  That David Spiegel guy taught me that 25% of people that do a single session intervention for smoking cessation quit for life.

• 2:10:48Joe Rogan?

  From hypnosis?

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  One session, 25%. Get this. And I think if you do a couple of sessions, that number starts to go up and go up. So hypnosis is this really weird backdoor into the human psyche. But yeah, the, the memory thing is fucking crazy when you think about, what do I actually know? Like, how do I know that this thing happened in the past?

• 2:11:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  So, um, most people understand, there's like two types of memory failure. Uh, one is I can't remember that thing. And the other is, I remember it, but I remember it incorrectly. And that's broadly two categories. And I think people are really happy with the first one. Because there's tons of shit that has happened to you and you go, yeah, I forget my memory or whatever, whatever. But your experience of your own memory is your only experience of your own memory. So for you to be able to say, my recollection is wrong, what does that mean? That's like saying this dimension that I'm in is wrong. So a lot of the time, I think people struggle to understand how often their memory of a thing is present but inaccurate. So for instance, uh, there's only 17 colors that we remember on average. We don't remember, like, if I asked you what color's a tomato?

• 2:11:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, I would say red, but really it's not, if it's heirloom.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Typically red, but it's like a reddy orange sort of color.

• 2:12:03Joe Rogan?

  Sure, but those are the bullshit tomatoes, like a real heirloom tomato.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  Didn't need to get into

• 2:12:07Joe Rogan?

  Different purplish sort of.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Tomato politics.

• 2:12:11Joe Rogan?

  That's what a tomato really looks like. Sorry. Supermarket tomato, kind of reddish, orange.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  Reddish, orangish, but most people would default to the red thing.

• 2:12:19Joe Rogan?

  Right, but not really.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not, and we sort of, we adjust. So if you're the guy.

• 2:12:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, we're white people.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:12:27Joe Rogan?

  But we're not really white.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you're a bit flush.

• 2:12:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but we're not white. You know what I'm saying?

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  Comparatively white.

• 2:12:34Joe Rogan?

  My friend Jamie, not this one, but another one, he's from England and he's white like paper. And when my daughter first met him, that's what she said. She goes, mommy, he's so white. And she goes, yeah, he's white. And she goes, no, no, he's white like paper.

• 2:12:50Speaker 01

  Well, if you live in England, you will be referred to as white like paper.

• 2:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  If you've got, I mean, this must be the same with fighters. Even if you forget the TBI head traumery stuff, just the dump of adrenaline. From going through, I mean, you must have done this when you've done your biggest shows. And you go out on stage.

• 2:13:07Joe Rogan?

  You don't remember much.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  You come back and you're like, I've worked my whole life to get to the stage where I can achieve this thing. And in the achievement of this thing, I kind of wasn't really there. Well, I was there for it, but in retrospect, I can't really recall where I was. And it's this odd duality that you want to be in a flow state.

• 2:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  Because it's very fulfilling. It's where you're at your best. This word's just coming out of you perfectly. And when you look back, you're like, I, I don't know if I was there fully. I feel like I was kind of absent.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not that you're absent, but that you're empty. You empty out all your expectations and you're on it for the ride. You're not really piloting it as much as you're just like making sure it doesn't hit the rocks. You're on, you're there for the ride. The thing takes over. And I think that's the case with everything. That's the case when you're in the flow state of anything you're doing, when you're really like you're, the more you think about you being there, which is what you have to do if you're there. You're thinking about you. So it's like wasted resources. You're better off being empty and just like being a vessel and just like taking this thing like, you've done the work already, like take it along for the ride. Just go, go for the ride. That's what it is.

• 2:14:24Joe Rogan?

  And so the problem with that is if you don't record your set, sometimes you'll say things that you don't remember, like that were really funny. And you're like, oh, there was, I had a totally different point that I went off and it really worked, but I don't remember what it was. If you don't record it, you're fucked. The only way you can get it back is you have to get back to that exact spot and hope it's still there for the next show. Sometimes it will be, sometimes it will be.

• 2:14:48Speaker 01

  It's waiting for you with a little gift.

• 2:14:49Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes that angle pops up again, you're like, oh yeah, but, but why are we doing this?

• 2:14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:54Joe Rogan?

  I almost forgot it.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  That must be a nightmare, or must have been a nightmare before you could record sets.

• 2:14:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you've always been able to record sets. One, that's one of the things I learned, like really early on from this guy, Mike Donovan, who was one of like the big comics in Boston. He goes, always record your sets, because you never know when you're gonna say something. And you'll, it'll be lost forever if you don't have a recording.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  There was a Scottie Scheffler, a golfer, he won, Jamie, you'll have seen this video.

• 2:15:19Speaker 03

  Number one golfer?

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, can we get the, that, it's a, does a New York sports video, like, cut? He does this, it's such a fucking cool explanation of what somebody who's got to the peak of their sport, the absolute pinnacle, like, in the moments of winning. And he just breaks the fourth wall open about kind of the hollowness of what this is.

• 2:15:42Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really fascinating.

• 2:15:44Speaker 03

  What's the point, that thing?

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, it's just, it's just such a fucking great explainer, because we always assume, here, here we go.

• 2:15:52Joe Rogan?

  Let me hear this.

• 2:15:56Speaker 03

  He might have just won the US Open here too, by the way, just like the biggest event of the year.

• 2:16:00Joe Rogan?

  Filling life, it's, it's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of like the deepest, you know, places of your heart. You know, I think it's kind of funny, I think, you know, I, I think I said something after the Byron this year about like,

• 2:16:17Joe Rogan?

  it feels like you work your whole life to celebrate winning a tournament for like a few minutes. It only lasts a few minutes, that kind of euphoric feeling. And I, like, to win the Byron Nelson Championship at home, I literally worked my entire life to become good at golf, to have an opportunity to win that tournament. And you win it, you celebrate, get to hug, hug my family, my sister's there, it's such an amazing moment. And then it's like, okay, now, now what?

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  What are we gonna eat for dinner? You know, life goes on. This...

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  Is it great to be able to win tournaments and to accomplish the things I have in the game of golf yet? I mean, it brings tears to my eyes just to think about because it's...

• 2:16:56Speaker 01

  I've literally worked my entire life to become good at this sport and to have that kind of sense of accomplishment, I think is a pretty cool feeling. You know, to get to live out your dreams is very special. But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not out here to inspire the next generation of golfers. I don't... I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world because what's the point? You know, this is not a fulfilling life. It's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of like the deepest, you know, places of your heart. You know, there's a lot of people that make it to what they thought was gonna fulfill them in life and then you get there and all of a sudden you get to number one in the world and then they're like, what's the point? And, you know, I really do believe that because, you know, what is the point? You're like, why do I want to win this tournament so bad?

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  That's something that I wrestle with on a daily basis. It's like, showing up at the Masters every year, it's like, why do I want to win this golf tournament so badly? Why do I want to win the Open Championship so badly? I don't know. Because if I win, it's gonna be awesome for about two minutes. And then we're gonna get to the next week and it's gonna be like, hey, you won two majors this year. How important is it for you to win the FedEx Cup playoffs? And it's just like, we're back here again, you know? So we really do, we work so hard for such little moments and, you know, I'm kind of a sicko. I love putting in the work, I love being able to practice, I love getting out to live out my dreams. But at the end of the day, sometimes I just don't understand the point.

• 2:18:17Joe Rogan?

  That's honest, that's what that is.

• 2:18:19Speaker 01

  I love that video so much.

• 2:18:20Joe Rogan?

  That's why he's so good.

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  I love that video so much.

• 2:18:22Joe Rogan?

  Guarantee you, that's why he's so good. Because I guarantee you, that guy has to be that honest with himself about everything. Otherwise, you'd never fix the hitch in your swing, you know? You have to be honest about every single thing. You have to be aware of all of it. Every little weird fucking thing you do, why am I doing this? Like, what is the point of this? And then when you're done, like, yeah, I did it. And then it's gonna creep right back in. Creep right back in.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Nike did a...

• 2:18:49Joe Rogan?

  Back to work.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  A commercial after that. And it's him with his son sort of kneeling down on the green. And it says, "You've already won." And then I think the next slide is, "But let's get another one." And it's so fucking cool, dude. There it is, you've already won. But another major never hurt, that was a bro.

• 2:19:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:13Speaker 01

  Fucking unbelievable. So I think I kind of become obsessed with

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  people sacrificing what they want, which is happiness, for the thing that's supposed to get it, which is success. So they sacrifice the thing that they want, being happy in the moment. They make themselves miserable in order to be able to achieve a thing, so that when they finally have sufficient success, they will allow themselves to be happy. It's like a very strange trade. Imagine if you had some simultaneous equation and you just crossed off success from both sides, you would sort of be left with happiness. I think that's unrealistic, right? Because we need social validation from people and we want to be recognized. We want to do stuff. We've got to put food on the table and social creatures and all the rest of it. But I think videos like that are really important for people to see when they look up to someone about

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  how much there is there at the end of the rainbow.

• 2:20:08Speaker 01

  Elon was on Lex's show a couple of years ago and I think Lex asked him some question, like, "How are you doing?" He replied and he said, "People think they want to be me. They do not want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. My mind is a storm." And like, that's the price you need to pay to be Elon Musk.

• 2:20:24Joe Rogan?

  I think that was on this podcast.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Was it this one?

• 2:20:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because I asked him, like, "What is it like to be you?" Like, he's like, "You wouldn't want to do it. You wouldn't want to be me." And you could tell, like, when you're in his eyes. Like, there's, it's not a normal thought process. It's like this chaotic tornado of ideas that's running around in his head. You know, and that sometimes he spits them out on Twitter and they're not good.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's a problem when you're on the platform, right? It's kind of like, "I can say what I want, it's my own house."

• 2:20:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, he can, though. But he's like that all the time. He's fun. He's like what I would want to... See from a guy who's a super genius, like a playful guy who wants to go to Mars. Who's making, like Jamie and I went on a tour of Starship, Starbase. What is it? SpaceX, Starbase, whatever the fuck it is. Uh, we saw the launch. We, we went to the SpaceX launch. And so we got a tour of the rocket factory, which is fucking insane. It's so much more insane than I thought it was gonna be. It's, I mean, I can't really, I don't know how much we could even say, but it is nuts. It's nuts and the sheer quantity of rockets that they're making is mind blowing. Like you're like, I had no, I thought they had a couple of rockets.

• 2:21:38Joe Rogan?

  You know, just a couple of rockets laying around, they're just making rockets.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  I'm pretty sure they've put more stuff into space, just that one company. Than like the entirety of the load that's been transported into space globally up until now.

• 2:21:52Joe Rogan?

  They put stuff in space for their competitors. Yeah, they, they use their space rockets to put stuff in space for people that they're in competition with. They, yeah, they take the money.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  Show me the color of your money.

• 2:22:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we know how to do it. We, we're better at it than you, so we'll do it.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  Fucking unbelievable dude.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  It's kinda nuts.

• 2:22:08Speaker 01

  I think about, um, that, like the sort of person you need to be to drive that though.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  It's a different kind of person, right? Like that's what he wants to do and that's what he desires to do. And, you know, this gentleman talking about golf, like this is a different, this is, that's a totally different thing. Cause he's, he's in a competition all the time, you know? And it's, it's really hard to just enjoy the process. When you're in this competition where especially if your livelihood depends upon a very specific result. Like you have to be better at this thing than everybody else, not just do the best yourself. But better than the other people that are also doing their best. So you're in this constant, just never escaping this pressure.

• 2:22:53Joe Rogan?

  Fighters feel that, I think more than anybody, cause it's like an actual physical person coming to harm you all the time.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  And you're very outcome focused.

• 2:23:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  And so it's all well and good him saying, I, I love the process, I'm a bit of a sicko, I like my training, so on and so forth. But. It's very different saying, I enjoyed the process of training.

• 2:23:12Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients.

• 2:23:57Joe Rogan?

  They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try The Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding.

• 2:24:38Joe Rogan?

  With over two decades of expertise, business owners keep voting Cardiff, America's favorite small business lender. Apply now for up to $500,000 in same-day business funding at cardiff.co/rogan. Again, that's cardiff.co/rogan. Cardiff, borrow better.

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  Training when you've just won than I enjoyed the process of training when you've just come second or fifth or 20th.

• 2:25:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:05Speaker 01

  And especially if you're laid out flat on the canvas.

• 2:25:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, especially that.

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  If that's your humiliation.

• 2:25:11Joe Rogan?

  There's also the damage that was just done to you where you might not, really might not be the same again. And there's certain fighters that you could point to one fight, and they never recovered from it. Yeah. Melvin Taylor versus Julio Cesar Chavez is my personal one that I always point to. Because Julio Cesar Chavez knocked him out with like... I think it was like a couple of seconds left in the last round. Stopped him and it was a fight that Melvin Taylor was winning a decision. But Julio Cesar Chavez was wearing him down. He was one of the greatest of all time, just ripping the body, constantly attacking him. And eventually broke him down, had him in a corner, boom, dropped him with a right hand. And he got up and the referee stopped, called the fight with like a couple of seconds to go. And it was a hugely controversial call.

• 2:25:54Joe Rogan?

  But then when Melvin Taylor returned, he was never the same again. He started slurring his words really badly.

• 2:25:59Speaker 01

  So it's physical issue?

• 2:26:00Joe Rogan?

  He's getting knocked out easily. He's getting dropped easily. He was just, it was gone, it was all gone. That fight just took it all out of him. You see that, so there's that too. It's not just you're gonna lose a golf tournament. Like you might get your brains punched in.

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  Physical repercussions?

• 2:26:15Joe Rogan?

  Huge physical repercussions for a vicious knockout, huge. Some guys are never the same again. And much more likely to get knocked out again, once they get knocked out really badly.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Who do you think of all of the people that you know? Has got the right balance of is successful and is also having fun at the same time? Because it seems like that's a trade that a lot of people can make.

• 2:26:37Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:38Speaker 01

  Where they are successful, but they sacrifice their happiness. Or they're kind of happy, but they're not pursuing external successes in the same way?

• 2:26:46Joe Rogan?

  I would say comedians, I would say Chappelle. Chappelle's probably the most successful guy that's genuinely happy. I mean, he certainly has a lot of moments and deep thought. But when you're hanging around with him, he's a lovely person. He's a happy, lovely guy. He's so sweet and so smart and so, so like self-deprecating and interesting. And so great at what he does. But when you're hanging out with him, it's just, it's just a hang. It's just, he's just having fun, laughing a lot, got a great crew. He always, you know, stays, keeps his circle tight with cool people and just has a great time.

• 2:27:23Speaker 01

  Have you deconstructed what that is? Like what the contributing elements are?

• 2:27:27Joe Rogan?

  I think he just, he's doing it, well, he's a very unusual person, right? So you're talking about Dave Chappelle, when Chappelle's Show was the number one comedy in the country. It was the greatest sketch show, I think it was the greatest sketch show of all time. And it was only two seasons, right? And then they offered him an enormous amount of money, I think it was fifty million dollars. And they wanted to change a bunch of stuff, they wanted him to stop saying certain words, they wanted him to stop doing this, stop doing that. And he didn't like it, and he said, "I quit." And he went to Africa, and just fucking hung out in Africa. And then came back, when he came back, he stopped doing stand-up. He would do stand-up, I remember one time, uh, he did stand-up in a park in Seattle.

• 2:28:11Joe Rogan?

  So, uh, he showed up, he, uh, had little speakers with him and a microphone, and just did stand-up for free to these people. Just hung out in Seattle, just did stand-up. And he would do stuff like that, show up places and just do stand-up occasionally. I mean, for ten fucking years. He was like a monk on a walkabout, and-

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  How did he stay sharp?

• 2:28:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think he ever stopped thinking about things the same way. And he wasn't as sharp when he came back, there's one like famous video from him in Hartford, Connecticut, where he bombed. But I always tell people, "Stay out of Connecticut." But, just, that's not the point. It's like, you know, you think England's depressed? Um, but the point was, then eventually, he started touring regularly, got it all back, plus then some. And then is now widely regarded as, if not the greatest of all time, he's in the consideration. There's like Pryor, him, Murphy, Kinison, Lenny Bruce, Carlin for some. There's like a bunch of different people that you put into like the greatest of all time, and Dave is certainly in that group. But he's very happy, he's a happy guy.

• 2:29:18Joe Rogan?

  I mean, certainly there's cultural issues that play, that trouble him, and life issues that everybody goes through that trouble him. But, uh, genuinely, a pretty balanced guy for someone who's ultra-successful. But, he's not stepping outside of his lane either. What he's really concentrating on, and almost exclusively concentrating on, is doing stand-up comedy. And he will travel, he would get in a jet and fly to New York unannounced, and just show up at clubs and start doing stand-up. And, um, he's done this forever. One time I was in Colorado, and- I've known Dave forever. I met Dave when he was like nineteen and I was like, I guess I was like twenty-three or twenty-four. We were both very young. And even back then, I was like, this kid is so talented.

• 2:30:02Joe Rogan?

  It was, it was like remarkable how poised he was on stage, like as a nineteen-year-old kid.

• 2:30:09Joe Rogan?

  He, he will just show up places. I was in Colorado doing stand-up. I was at the Comedy Works. I get offstage. It was on a Friday night. I go into the green room and Dave's there. He doesn't live in Colorado. He just flew to Colorado because he knew I was gonna be there and he wanted to do comedy. And so, uh, I go, "Do you wanna do a set?" He goes, "Should I?" I go, "Yes." I go, "Hold on." So I went back onstage. The show was over. I go, "Everybody, yell at the people that are on the stairs to come back. Dave Chappelle is here." And half the crowd had already like got up and left. They all come back, everyone. Everyone tells everyone, they're yelling it up the stairs. "Dave Chappelle's here, come back." I bring him onstage. Everybody goes crazy and he does like forty-five minutes, just fucking around. It was back in the grab 'em by the pussy days.

• 2:30:53Joe Rogan?

  So he had this whole like, "He said, 'Grab 'em by the pussy.'" And this whole bit, like it just happened that week. And he had this like giant, and he just wanted to just go places and do comedy. So he's not doing it for money, right? He's not getting paid to do this show. He would show up in New York. He's not getting paid to do the stand or wherever these clubs that he just shows up in. He's just working. He's just working on the craft of comedy. So his mindset is not try to make the most amount of money with stand-up. Because if he was doing that, he would do an arena every night, right? But he could, he could do an arena every night of the week, all over the world, and make way more money. But that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is working on the craft of comedy. He has plenty of money, right? He has all this money from all these Netflix specials. They pay him an exorbitant amount of money.

• 2:31:34Joe Rogan?

  And he makes all this money when he does do the big shows. So he's got plenty of money. So it's not money. It's just the craft. It's just the art, the new set, the new bits, the new thing. He has a guy who films all of his sets. So he's got like a guy there filming every one of his sets and then they break them down, like this rant, that rant. Because he'll like ask questions to people in the audience. He'll do like an hour and a half onstage, just fucking around with a small crowd somewhere. But there's a gem in there somewhere. And then they take that gem and then they, and expands upon it. He'll go over it and break it down. So his process is all just about the art. And I think because of that, the love of the art is what keeps him happy.

• 2:32:15Joe Rogan?

  I think if it's just the love of the money and you're constantly keeping score, who's the number one touring act? And you're looking at the fucking Ticketmaster, oh, Jesus Christ, Kevin Hart's got me beat.

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:24Joe Rogan?

  Son of a bitch, I gotta do two shows a night now.

• 2:32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's matinee.

• 2:32:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people get nutty, they get nutty and they really do get themselves, you see in the podcast world as well. People really get obsessed with the the number of the rankings and like who's making more and who's doing this and.

• 2:32:43Joe Rogan?

  Just do what you do.

• 2:32:44Speaker 01

  Well, you're, the the problem that you're gonna come up against there is you are going to try and trade.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  The outcome that you're looking for for the fuel that gets you there, the fuel that gets you there is how much you love what you're doing.

• 2:32:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:32:57Speaker 01

  So I've been thinking.

• 2:32:58Joe Rogan?

  That's what gets you to the dance.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  Correct. I've been thinking so much about the shame of simple pleasures. So there's this quote from a guy called Visakhan Varasamy that says, I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things. And I just love the idea of it, that most of us are kind of terrible accountants of our own joy.

• 2:33:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:33:20Speaker 01

  That we only accept deposits when the transaction's large enough, right? The day that we get married or the night that we play the main stage at Glastonbury or sell out the arena. Anything less than that.

• 2:33:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:31Speaker 01

  And it doesn't even make the ledger. So we treat small pleasures like counterfeit currency. And we think like.

• 2:33:41Speaker 01

  We have a kind of, not disgust, but rejection of, oh, that small thing made your week. That tiny incident made your day. You must not have a lot going on. Like how weak and how small must your life be that seeing a cute golden retriever this afternoon was like a fucking sick part of your day?

• 2:34:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:04Speaker 01

  I think about. Scottie Scheffler is a good example. Him making it all the way to the top. And if all that you were doing was waiting for that final moment for this main stage at Glastonbury, day that I get married, sell the business for five hundred million dollars, whatever. You are forgetting almost all of the journey and then just cashing in at the destination. And there's the guy that's just won everything in all of fucking golf, like the goat of right now is saying, it's fleeting.

• 2:34:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:33Speaker 01

  It's really, really short. It's not gonna last for very long. And that shame that people have, I certainly know that I do as well, that it almost feels like a reflection on the smallness of my life if I take pleasure in little things. But when you take pleasure in little things, you don't just get more of them. You get them right now. You don't need to wait. You don't need to like be a fucking world champion at the winning the marshmallow test, just delaying gratification so long that you never actually end up getting any gratification.

• 2:35:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. The problem with that thought process is to achieve true greatness, you must be mad. Madness and greatness are inextricably connected. You can't separate them. To treat, to get true greatness, you have to, there has to be some demons. There has to be a mad struggle in your mind and you have to want it so badly. You wanna have to want that result so badly that you are willing to put in more time, more effort, more focus, more hours. And just, you don't get to smell the roses, man. You don't, you don't get to pet the puppies. You do, but you don't, you're petting the puppy thinking about the thing that you do,

• 2:35:45Joe Rogan?

  thinking about getting better because you need those resources.

• 2:35:48Speaker 01

  It's like a demon that sort of climbs inside of you and wears you.

• 2:35:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You know Ronnie O'Sullivan is?

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the snooker player.

• 2:35:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the greatest of all time. Like, there's certain people in certain sports. I'm gonna send you something, Jamie. So you see what a wizard this guy is. I'm actually in the middle of his book. My friend Billy Thorpe, who's a top flight pool player, recommended this book. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Tyler Styler, who's another top flight pool player, like world-class pool player, recommended this book. And I started the book and I can't stop it. It's so good. It's about, I think it's fairly recent because it's post-COVID.

• 2:36:28Joe Rogan?

  I thought it was going, he, he recommended it because of the way Ronnie describes picking the perfect cue, like the relationship that he has with the cue, but it is so eloquent and so, but the stor, the whole story, the whole book, rather, the, the story of his life is really more of, it's an exercise in him trying to explain, like what it's like to be this good and this mad, like he's a madman, like, watch this, watch this, watch what he does here, this is crazy. Performance here from O'Sullivan. Now, if you don't know how difficult it is to make these ball, he doesn't give a shit that that guy's in front of him, that the referee's in front of him, watch how

• 2:37:13Joe Rogan?

  quickly he does this. I mean, he's making the audience laugh, he's moving around that guy, he can't miss. This is, this is the zone personified, he gets to a point in this where he's feeling so good, he decides to start shooting things one-handed. Watch this, watch this, one-handed. Now he's doing it one-handed. One-handed, these are tiny little pockets, he's shooting one-handed with English and getting position, everyone's going crazy. I mean, that's how fucking good Ronnie O'Sullivan was. Like, but this, the book is really about managing madness, it's about him being sober and now he's trans, he's kind of taken a lot of that insane competitive drive, now

• 2:37:58Joe Rogan?

  he runs, like he's a runner, like he runs long distances, and he talks about that, meets up with his running club and they all get together and go and run together, but it's like, it's just managing whatever the fuck that, and, and, and he's also describing, even in his prime, he was saying, he was thinking he's worthless, he's thinking he's not good enough, he's gonna fall apart, he's gonna choke, he's gonna this, he's like, all these demons are popping up, and meanwhile, he's just, everybody's like terrified of him, he shows up, it's like, oh gee, the genius is here, because he's a genius, like, he's a snooker-playing genius, there's, there's something about what he does that's just different than everybody else, but the book is, like, it's not just about, like, picking the perfect cue, it's really about managing madness, and everyone who's great is fucking

• 2:38:42Joe Rogan?

  crazy, there's, but you can... I think, like Chappelle does, you can take that greatness and just throw it into the thing you do and love it while you're doing it. You can't, it doesn't have to be a demon, doesn't have to be an adversary.

• 2:38:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:38:59Joe Rogan?

  It could be like, just this romantic affair of you being so fortunate to be able to pursue this thing, but maintaining that same level of enthusiasm. I don't know if the same level of enthusiasm though can be maintained in something that has like a winner and a loser. Like a game where there's so much riding on each shot.

• 2:39:20Speaker 01

  Binary outcome.

• 2:39:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes, versus art, which is like, Dave goes to, he's already won, they're gonna, they're, the show's sold out. He knows how to do comedy, he gets out there, they all cheer, he's got great material, he can't wait to make them laugh, he already won.

• 2:39:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's the problem with turning the art into the competition.

• 2:39:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:39Speaker 01

  She said there, right, the rankings, well, that means that even if I did it and enjoyed it, but I'm number three or whatever.

• 2:39:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:45Speaker 01

  That's horrendous, that's not good, yeah, I, uh.

• 2:39:48Joe Rogan?

  There's podcasts that game the system, so this podcast that released multiple episodes a day and they're short podcasts, so they have more downloads than everybody else, and so.

• 2:39:57Speaker 01

  Because downloads accounted to get you up.

• 2:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Relatively speaking, you know, this, so it's like a scam, and so like, they'll be very highly ranked, but no one's ever watched it or heard of it.

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  I think.

• 2:40:07Joe Rogan?

  But they get quoted in magazines as being the number two podcast in the world.

• 2:40:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:40:11Joe Rogan?

  But that's really what it is, it's like, you've, you've figured out a way, which there's nothing wrong with that, if you want to do that, you can game the system. But it doesn't matter, like, what is, what are you doing, like, are you doing something that you're putting, like, like, I don't talk to anybody that I'm not interested in talking to, that's it, it's the only reason why I do this. I talk to people that I think will be fun and I look forward to it and I still do, that's why I do it. That's why, you know, it continues to work, because I do it the same way I've always done it. I just talk to people that I like to talk to, no, no like, oh, if I got that guy on, he's super famous, like, that'll, that'll get a big rating.

• 2:40:47Speaker 01

  Game the system.

• 2:40:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of famous people that I've said no to, because I'm just not interested in them. I'm like, yeah, maybe that'll get a lot of people, but I don't, I don't want to do that.

• 2:40:55Speaker 01

  What I've found, the single best determinant for when I know that modern wisdom's going well, is if I wake up on the morning of the episode and I can't wait for it to be 2pm.

• 2:41:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:06Speaker 01

  I'm like, fucking yes, I get to speak to such and such today.

• 2:41:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  And then I finish up and I go. I learned something. That was fucking cool. Like, that was a good one, two, three, four hours. That was a good day. And then there's other days when I've like, I don't know, I wake up and I just think, ah, I should have, I should have thought a little bit more about it. I'm like, I'm looking forward to this, but I'm not super fired up. And the more that you push away from that instinct with whatever you're doing, because your instinct is ultimately your only competitive advantage that you have, because it's the most non-fungible thing that you've got. So Douglas Murray told me this story, it's a really fascinating one, about this guy. When Douglas was first on the scene, this guy that was the head of the paper that he was at, accumulated all of the fans and all of the foes that you would in an industry like that over the space of a couple of decades.

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  And he decides that he's going to release a West End show about the life of Prince Charles in rhyming couplets.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  Douglas is like, what? Okay, well, you know, you trust him, this guy, this illustrious history, so he must know what he's doing. And by the opening night interval, there is nobody left in the entire auditorium, including the cast. Everybody's left and this guy is dejected and all of the people, all of the enemies that he's accumulated throughout his career, they start sharpening the knives and they come out and he's just disappointed, like so, so sad. Douglas sees him a couple of weeks later and he goes, what were you thinking? A West End show about the life of Prince Charles in rhyming couplets. What were you thinking? He said, Douglas, I followed my instincts.

• 2:42:45Speaker 01

  And the thing is, instincts, they may sometimes lead you wrong, but they're the only thing that's ever led you right. And I thought, that's such a cool insight about, yes, you're going to make some errors if you follow that and maybe you need a team around you or a friend to go.

• 2:43:03Joe Rogan?

  Ah, not with that one.

• 2:43:06Speaker 01

  But.

• 2:43:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:07Speaker 01

  You just going, I think this guy's interesting. I think this girl's interesting. I think this topic's important, and I'm gonna talk about it.

• 2:43:13Joe Rogan?

  Maybe he just did a bad job. Like, look at Hamilton. They did a rap about Alexander Hamilton. It's fucking huge.

• 2:43:20Speaker 01

  Okay, yes, the delivery of the thing. You might have the great idea, but the delivery is wrong.

• 2:43:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an interesting one.

• 2:43:25Joe Rogan?

  Totally. If you think about Hamilton, like, Hamilton is a great example. That play is gigantic. It's on Netflix now.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  And it keeps on crushing.

• 2:43:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's killing it.

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:35Joe Rogan?

  And it's so preposterous. If you think about it, like, they're talking in modern language about a guy who lived hundreds of years ago. Like, that doesn't even make any sense. They have black people playing white people. Like, this is gonna be weird. It's great. It's fucking great.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  Where do you think that drive comes from in people? You know, that demon thing. Is there a common thread that you've seen with the people that have got it?

• 2:43:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Most of them had unhappy childhoods. Yeah. It's very rare that someone has, like, the best in the world demon, and their childhood was awesome. It's very rare. Generally speaking, there's something there. Something, some loss, some trauma, something not good, some lack of what you needed when you were young. You didn't get it. And, you know, and then you're like, I'm gonna fucking show everyone. Like, Mike Tyson, maybe the best example of that ever. Like, for a period of time, the scariest heavyweight that ever walked the face of the planet, and redefined the heavyweight

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  division in modern boxing. And, you know, he was 13 years old when Customato had adopted him, and his life was hell before that. It was hell. It was no love. It was crime, and being around the worst people. And then, all of a sudden, he's in the Catskills with this guy who's a psychologist and one of the greatest boxing coaches of all time, and also a hypnotist, and is hypnotizing him on a regular basis when he's 13 years old, and teaches him to be the best. And so then, he's got this, I will show you that I'm worth something. I will show you that I'm special. This one thing that I'm good at, and that is separating men from their consciousness, finding a way to get a touch with them, finding,

• 2:45:18Joe Rogan?

  get close enough, and launching, launching bombs and watching them drop. And he was the best at it. And it was, I think, the drive to be the best. It has to come from some, there's gotta be something wrong. Where you you have that fire inside of you.

• 2:45:35Speaker 01

  I love thinking about this. I think it's been the the question that I've probably been the most obsessed by since doing the show. The the price that people pay to be somebody that you admire. And I think it's just it's just endlessly interesting. So one thing that that comes to mind there is, do you know what the fundamental attribution error is? It's like we we attribute to other people motive for their action. It's like their character, but for us, it's situation. So for instance, I cut you off in traffic because I'm late for work. You cut me off in traffic because you're a dick.

• 2:46:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  So we have this asymmetry in how we judge other people's.

• 2:46:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:46:11Speaker 01

  Behaviors as opposed to our own. I think that there's an equivalent here when we think about our parents. So you could call it the fundamental like parental attribution error, maybe, which would be, we attribute to our parents our shortcomings, but not necessarily our strengths.

• 2:46:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:30Speaker 01

  So we're very happy like modern pop psychology, it's like a rite of passage to lay at the feet of our parents. I've got anxious attachment because nobody ever came to look after me. You go, yeah, maybe. But also, isn't this the reason that your hypervigilance means that no one ever gets to take advantage of you? It's like, I am unable to relax and chill out because love was always predicated on me performing. It's like, yes, but also it's driven you to be an incredibly successful person. And I think we should just be a little bit cautious when laying at the feet of our parents, only our shortcomings. They can either have both. You can either say that my strengths and my shortcomings come from my parents, or my strengths and my shortcomings come from my own agency.

• 2:47:14Speaker 01

  But you can't say, I authored the things that I like about myself, but the things that I don't like about myself came from some like past situation.

• 2:47:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, victim mentality. Yeah.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 2:47:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and also.

• 2:47:29Joe Rogan?

  Bad things that happened to you when you were a kid, being bullied. Being bullied is terrible at the time, but it leads many a person to say, I'll fucking show you. You know, and then you get this incredible result, but then the thing is like, are you happy? That's, that's the, that's the real dance. The dance is between success and happiness. And a lot of people have achieved success, but have not achieved happiness and they'll die a loser.

• 2:47:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's you sacrificing the thing you want for the thing that's supposed to get it. And that's why like, okay, what's your definition of success?

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:00Speaker 01

  Interesting question. Would you just want to be the best in the world? Maybe like that's not bad, that's not a bad, but.

• 2:48:08Joe Rogan?

  It's this thing we talked about before too. That just because something's difficult doesn't mean it's good. And there's a lot of things that you do that are very difficult to do. And then you see other people have achieved them. You say, that must be really worthwhile. And then you do it and you realize like, oh, this isn't worth anything. This is just hard to do. This sucks. That's often the case with success. Because if you become incredibly successful and then you have all these haters and you know, like the guy who wrote the shitty play, you know, like they, they come for you and they, they want to chop you down. And that's part of the game that you're playing. And if you don't like that, if you don't like that, but then you've gotten trapped in it and you're constantly being attacked and you listen to it and you pay attention to it.

• 2:48:53Joe Rogan?

  So you're in, you see with successful people, you see it really with famous people, especially young people. They have no history with this and then all of a sudden it's just thrown at them. And then they are both the thing they wanted and something they would never want, which is to be like constantly under attack.

• 2:49:11Speaker 01

  I've thought about how brutal it must be to have the talent, but not the constitution to be able to handle success and fame. So I don't know whether you've been tracking Lewis Capaldi, the Scottish singer? So there's a great documentary on Netflix, you've got to watch it. How I'm Feeling Now, it's a bit old now, it's like maybe four or five years old. Lewis Capaldi breaks onto the scene, unbelievable voice. He's been playing working men's pubs around Scotland and is just a fucking phenom, right? Billions of streams, billions and billions of plays, arena tour, global tour, all the rest of it. Covid happens.

• 2:49:48Speaker 01

  He's back in his mum and dad's house, near Glasgow, in Scotland. And he's in the hut, out the back, trying to do the difficult second album. And there's the pressure of the world on him. Now, he's got the talent, but the pressure from agencies, from record label, from fans, from himself, from his parents, from his peers, from everybody, starts to get on him. It weighs on him so heavily that he develops a tic.

• 2:50:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:50:14Speaker 01

  Like Tourette's. It turns out he's always had Tourette's, but the pressure has caused him to, like, he can't, he can't perform. And toward the end of the documentary, he goes back out on stage at the O2 in London, does the thing, walks out on stage, and he's still doing this. And you've tracked this whole journey, this is toward the end, and he can't get his words out. This is his calling in life. This is what he was built to do. This is what he was made for. And his talent has been taken away from him by the pressure of trying to do the thing, not by his inability to do the thing. And this is such a fucking unique kind of hell. Like, think about that.

• 2:50:54Speaker 01

  I think about fighters that have performance anxiety, that just can't get themselves into the octagon with the lights on them. Put them in the training camp, that they're sparring, there's not that same amount of pressure, not yet, and they've, they're unbelievable. And Lewis Capaldi did Glastonbury, I think, two years ago, and the same thing happened. Comes out on stage and basically can't sing. He can't, you're hearing these little croaks and squeaks come out of him. And then this year, he comes back out, he's done a ton of mindfulness, got his health in order, mental health work, therapy, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, comes out and fucking destroys it.

• 2:51:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:51:34Speaker 01

  Dude, it's like, it makes the hairs on my arms stand up. It's so fucking cool.

• 2:51:38Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that's awesome. That's a great story. That's what I like to see. I like to see someone who fucks their whole life up and gets it back together again. I love that. I really do. Because I think that's what people really root for. They really root for you to get it back together again. What they don't root for is, once you're on top, like, staying on top. They like you to fall. Yeah, that's a little too much.

• 2:52:00Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I, I, I think, especially with... With what most people feel, they want to see a little bit of themselves in that story. And they want to see a little bit of struggle.

• 2:52:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, and they also know that they fucked up their life, because everybody's fucked up their life at some point in time.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  Redemption.

• 2:52:14Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:52:15Speaker 01

  If this person can be there and lose it and then come back.

• 2:52:19Joe Rogan?

  Maybe I can get my shit together.

• 2:52:21Speaker 01

  That's the problem.

• 2:52:21Joe Rogan?

  As a 42-year-old alcoholic.

• 2:52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not going to be Lewis Capaldi, but...

• 2:52:26Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you are, maybe you're Oliver Anthony.

• 2:52:28Speaker 01

  You know Churchill didn't get into power until he was 65?

• 2:52:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:52:33Speaker 01

  So, all of my life up until now would be less than two-thirds of the warm-up set for Churchill starting his thing.

• 2:52:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:43Speaker 01

  So I just, you never know sort of when this stuff's going to come along. I do love though the idea of watching somebody climb to the top, lose it, and then turn it back around again. I think it's just such a fucking wonderful idea.

• 2:52:56Joe Rogan?

  We all love that, but I think it's because we try to see some of ourself in someone. Which is why we don't like things that are created by a corporation, where they put together a band, like The Monkees or something like that and fake it.

• 2:53:08Speaker 01

  Nepotism, Silver Spoon Baby.

• 2:53:10Joe Rogan?

  We hate all of that, we hate all of that. We hate all the people handed their life on a silver platter.

• 2:53:16Speaker 01

  If it feels like somebody didn't earn it.

• 2:53:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worry, I worry about where motivation comes from for people, in a way. If you are able to game the system, which people are now, they can like speedrun relatability and authenticity. But you don't know if this is some K-pop thing, that's some industry plant-style scenario that's just been placed together to try and get this, give you a sense of resonance with this person that doesn't deserve it. They didn't actually struggle in that sort of a way, but they can construct the narrative that they did. And I think, in a world that's become increasingly prefabricated, like people are looking, they're scrutinizing very aggressively. Is this person who they say they are? This is the hypocrisy that points out that they're not.

• 2:54:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:54:04Speaker 01

  And that's where you get performative vulnerability. Oh, woe is me. They pretend to, not pretend to have Tourette's, although I'm sure some people do.

• 2:54:14Joe Rogan?

  They pretend they're struggling.

• 2:54:15Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:16Speaker 01

  Because I need the sympathy vote.

• 2:54:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, ugh. Ugh.

• 2:54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't that an interesting?

• 2:54:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, the real problem is when someone pretends and you catch them pretending like that, then you're never gonna trust them again. You could fail. You can fail and fuck up. You could think you got it right and you got it wrong and you just, oh, fuck. But if you pretend, if you, if you lie, if you show deception, if you pretend you're something that you're not and they find out like, like Ellen. You know, she's a nice lady. She's all dancing. Meanwhile, she's fucking screaming at people and mean.

• 2:54:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:54:48Joe Rogan?

  You know, that's like, oh, you were lying.

• 2:54:52Speaker 01

  That is fucking catnip.

• 2:54:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:54Speaker 01

  To people.

• 2:54:54Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, they love it.

• 2:54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, there's nothing that the internet wants more than to, to find somebody that's a hypocrite.

• 2:55:00Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:55:00Speaker 01

  Right, because the internet is basically one big spot the difference competition.

• 2:55:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:04Speaker 01

  You said this thing here, you behaved this way here.

• 2:55:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:55:07Speaker 01

  I can compare the two. You were fallen short, like, and the fucking jury comes down and smashes you in the head.

• 2:55:12Joe Rogan?

  It's also because we crave authenticity. We wish we had it. We crave it in other people. We want, like, we're all trying to, we're watching all these different people, like this guy play golf and that guy play music and watching all these people do all these different things and we're, we're getting something out of it all. There's a reason why you like that thing on Netflix. It's like the, there's, it fuels the human condition. It gives you happiness. It's like, it's some, there's some, in a genuine moment like that, it's like a very special element that it adds to your life. And we crave that. And it's hard to know what's real and what's not real. That's why people get mad at me when I say I like AI music.

• 2:55:55Joe Rogan?

  I know, I know it's not real, I still like it. But I don't like it the same way I like listening to Johnny Cash sing Hurt. You know what I mean? It's like there's a, there's an authenticity to that. There's a real thing to that. It's like, it's very tangible, it's different.

• 2:56:12Speaker 01

  There's an upper bound on it. I certainly think, I'm friends with a lot of musicians and one of the issues I think that they have with the AI revolution, apart from the fact that like they're coming for our jobs, which is like obvious, is that learning a musical instrument is really fucking hard and it takes a very long time.

• 2:56:30Speaker 01

  I think that the revolution for podcasting has made it fucking fantastic for people to feel less lonely and have exposure to conversations and information they never would have done. But anybody that sticks a microphone in front of them can record a podcast. It may be a totally shit podcast, but if you give me a guitar, I can't make notes come out of it. So the bar that you need to get over to just be acceptably proficient, enough to be able to do, to have the conversation, right? Everybody does what is equivalent of a, everybody that has never recorded a podcast has had a great conversation over dinner and gone, dude, if we recorded that, that would have got millions of plays on YouTube. Right? Like, so everyone is a little bit closer to this.

• 2:57:12Speaker 01

  And I think that one of the issues that the music industry or musicians within the industry have is that AI feels like it's allowing people to leapfrog the first very long, very boring, very grindy stage of, well, this is where your fucking fingers need to go on the saxophone. Or this is how you need to pick the strings in order to make the sound come out of the guitar.

• 2:57:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:33Speaker 01

  And if you leapfrog it, that feels like a little bit like a technology-enabled nepotism in a way. You've got yourself toward the end, you shouldn't be able to make this. This is like a guarded and highly invested, is this, I mean, you guys see this in comedy. In comedy, you're like, dude, until you're eight, like the first seven years, like they're just you earning your keep and then you're eight, whatever it is, like it's a thousand shows. And once you've done a thousand spots, then you can say that you've started doing comedy or whatever it is. For podcasting, I think it's like 150 episodes. Before, anyone that asks me like, I'm beginning my podcast and what's your advice? And I'm like, once episode 150 starts, you have begun doing a podcast. Up until then, it's basically a warm-up set. And I think with music, because it's such a high.

• 2:58:14Speaker 01

  Investment that people need to have at the very, very beginning. This sense that there is a shortcut that allows people who haven't earned their way to get there. It would be like if you were using AI to write comedy sets.

• 2:58:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and I think you're correct, but I also think that's probably what lions felt when people invented guns. Like, this is bullshit. I've been chasing you motherfuckers down and eating you for thousands of years. Now all of a sudden you just squeeze your little finger and I die instantaneously? That's bullshit. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming in all forms of entertainment. It's gonna, they've figured out what you like. They've got a giant catalog of billions of hours of human beings paying attention to things. And it's coming. It's coming. It's gonna overwhelm you. And it's gonna be indiscernible from reality eventually. It's gonna be something that you physically experience as well as visual and audio. You're gonna, you're gonna have the whole experience.

• 2:59:10Speaker 01

  We'd better enjoy ourselves while we can.

• 2:59:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, have fun while you can. Chris, I appreciate you very much. It's always awesome talking to you. Your podcast is excellent. Tell everybody where they can get it, where they can find you.

• 2:59:22Speaker 01

  Modern Wisdom on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, Chris Williamson on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. I appreciate the fuck out of you, man.

• 2:59:28Joe Rogan?

  I appreciate the fuck out of you too, brother. It's always good talking to you. It's always fun. Goodbye, everybody.

• 2:59:33Speaker 01

  Peace.