Why Violence Is Safer Than Vulnerability - Johnny Chang - #1140

Johnny Chang is a former gang member and inmate turned Christian pastor, speaker, and podcaster. What happens when a boy enters prison at 12 and doesn’t emerge until 25? That was Johnny Chang’s reality. Raised amid violence and gangs, he eventually found God. But does a violent past define a man forever, or can he choose to become someone better? Expect to learn how Johnny was brought into gang life when he was 12 years old, why Juvie is more violent but less lethal than prison, what life is like in prison and what it takes to survive, the hardest things to unlearn after prison, how Johnny found god and started preaching the gospel, what twelve-year-old Johnny would think if he could see himself now and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get 15% off your first order of my favourite Non-Alcoholic Brew at https://athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) How Johnny Got Pulled Into Gang Life (08:44) Surviving California’s Youth Prison System (16:08) How Prison Politics Reshapes Gang Mentality (20:43) The Hidden Status Hierarchy Inside Prison (22:54) Why Prison Violence Is So Manipulative (29:26) Johnny’s Most Dangerous Moment Behind Bars (33:57) The Prison Habits That Are Hardest to Unlearn (39:04) Why Life After Prison Is So Difficult to Rebuild (43:01) Why Johnny Feared Life Outside Prison (57:04) How Johnny Found Purpose Through Christianity (01:11:41) The Courage of Forgiveness (01:16:26) Why Finding Peace Can Feel Like a Battle (01:21:19) How Do We Distinguish God’s Voice From Our Own? (01:25:04) Is Turning to Religion a Sign of Weakness? (01:27:25) Why Are Vulnerable Conversations So Hard? (01:29:59) Is Forgiveness Actually Selfish? (01:41:51) Why Returning to Prison Terrified Johnny (01:52:51) What Would Johnny’s 12-Year-Old Self Think Now? (01:59:01) Where to Find Johnny Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Tell me about your history. How did you get to where you are today? Yeah, so I grew up in the San Giro Valley, east side of L A, some project housing. And I grew up kind of not the stereotypical Asian, like I didn't like anime and I didn't like mathematics. I liked guns and gang banging, basically. And it's prior to that is because my parents were immigrant parents. They did not fend very well, obviously landed in poverty. They came with the American dream in mind, realizing that it's not as simple as other people were portraying it, like our family back, back home. So yeah, we landed in the projects. They didn't understand gang violence, gang culture. They, they just thought, oh, this place is cheap.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  The government helps us. Why not? Land there and my dad, um, he was a chef by trade, but he tries to, um, you know, do everything that a, a, a man can do, right? Provide for his family. He starts to develop this addiction, um, which is to alcohol. He's drinking soju all the time. Um, and then he starts like beating my mom, beating me, beat my brother. Basically, he, he had a lot of, uh, I remember it like, kind of like a victimized mindset where he's like, I came to this place, I tried my best and now like everybody's out to get me. Like he broke all of his friendships with his friends. I remember, he would just blame everybody, blame everybody.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Was the alcoholism a response to him feeling like things were slipping through his fingers? Yeah, yeah, it was. And then he would talk about certain things in the past that I didn't, I was too young, but I remember he would say certain things like, I never meant to do that. He would keep saying these types of things. And I'm like, okay, whatever. You know, you're a kid, you don't understand. And then he ends up, you know, just kind of full-fledged, like, you know, broke my mom's ribs, you know, he's, he's like, beat my brother really bad before he's beat me really, really bad. And so I kind of get to this position where I'm like, all right. I'm like eight years old. I can't really like, you know, depend on my dad because I know he's gonna go kind of crazy. So I try to just hang out in the streets and I think

• 2:07Speaker 00

  at eight years old was when I started to fight more. I got suspended when I was 10 years old. And I just started to kind of hang around that. And in, and a lot of people don't know, but in L A around like the nineties was gang culture. It was just crazy. That was when Snoop Dogg and, you know, Tupac and this gangster rap was hitting the scene. And so it, it literally came like a wave as well as crack cocaine, meth, going through, rampant through the neighborhood. And so, you know, we started to kind of see a shift in the, in the, in the area where people were just being more crazier, right? So, you know, the one event that made me kind of solidify that I couldn't trust my dad and, and my mom either

• 2:48Speaker 00

  is at 10 years old, I remember walking from High Hill Market, which is a market near, near my, my area in the hood. And these kids pull up on me in a car and they beat me. It's four kids, beat the dog crap out of me. And, you know, I get jumped for the first time. Um, and they take my backpack, they take my shoes. So I end up, you know, walking home barefoot, bloody nose, whatever, ripped shirt and, you know, my dad, uh, he asks me and he goes, where's your clothes? Where's your stuff? Like, what, what happened? Are you fighting again? And I was like, yes, but I got jumped. And for him, it could, he couldn't understand why kids would do this to kids. Like, I'm 10 years old. Why would anyone just come and beat us up?

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Well, my dad didn't know at the time was that there was a war between the Asians and the Mexicans. So it was just solely, they were just preying on us, you know, uh, uh, unfortunately. Even though you weren't a part of it, because of your race, you were a part of it. Yes, exactly. So and a lot of kids during that time, uh, through the green light era is what we call it, is they were getting beat up. And so, um, and that's because two gangs were, you know, going at each other. But, um, you know, my dad's like, I remember him saying vividly, when are you gonna stop lying? And then he's like, today's the day you're gonna stop lying. And I'm gonna beat it out of you. So I got jumped and then when I, you know, went home, my dad basically beat me. Uh, and then during that time, I just remember it was a different thing. Like I was used to the beatings,

• 4:17Speaker 00

  but I think at that time I understood like, I can't say anything to my dad anymore. He's just not there. My mom obviously would kind of help him beat on me because how he saw it was like, if you're not helping me hit the kid, then like, you're not supporting me, right? And so she would actually do the same, unfortunately, me and my brother. And so, um, you know, I, I was like, okay, I can't trust them. I started staying out more. I just had this internalized rage, like I would fight. And it was no longer like fun to fight anymore. It was more like survival. I was trying to like kill the person and it just, it just took it up. Ten years old. At 10 years old. Yeah. And then, uh, two years into it, I'm fighting, I'm getting suspended. My dad's beating me up and almost took it as like,

• 5:00Speaker 00

  all right, you're gonna beat me up, like, whatever. It's just part of it. I get out, um, go to the, go to the, you know, uh, uh, stores. I go to like, wherever I go, I'm literally just being mischievous. I'm stealing, um, carrying a knife to school, all this stuff. At 12 years old, you start to kind of see the shift in my life where the gangs are noticing. Cause when they, what they do is they kind of prey on, on the kids. They look at them and they go, okay, this guy's getting in trouble. You know, he's fighting more and they, they were basically trying to like recruit me. Well, they're not gonna try and recruit the kid that stays at home, goes to bed at eight o'clock. Of course. Reads his books.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, at that time, I remember the first encounter was they banged on me, which means like you, they basically test you, right? They know you're not from anywhere, but they wanna see. So I remember they pulled out guns on me and they were just like, where are you from? Which means, you know, what gang? And I froze, obviously. And I was like, ah, I didn't say anything. And then they're like, you, you ain't from anywhere. And I'm like, nah, you gang bang? I'm like, nah, I don't gang bang. And then they're like, you wanna kick it? Which means let's, let's hang out, you know? And of course, I was just like, they were, I think it was for the homies. So I remember, I think he was, it was 16, 15, 15 and 14. So they was just kids as well, right? And so, um, yeah, they were like, let's hang out. I remember getting into the black, into the white Honda Civic in the back.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  And they started introducing, they called me this guy and this guy and this guy, and told me their names. And, um, I was like, cool. They're like, let's go hang out. I remember they took me out to eat. And then the older dude, he was 16, brought me to his uncle and his uncle was one of the shock callers, meaning like the OGs. And he's like, what's, he was like the nicest guy. I remember, I was like, this guy's tatted up, he's done prison time, he's big built. A man's man. And but he's like, what's up, man? Like super soft, super respectful. And he's like, you know what? Like, are you hungry? And they're like, no, we took him to eat. He's like, okay, cool. And he, he pulls out a wad of cash and he pulls out a hundred dollars and he gives it to me. And then he goes, bro, like, I hope you understand that like, when you're with us, you're family. And I remember him saying that to me and I was like,

• 7:09Speaker 00

  whoa, this guy is awesome. He's respectful. He's got a pistol on his hip, like it, everyone respects this dude. And I think at that moment, I kind of fell in love with it, right? And he's being gentle to you. Very gentle, very respectful, very gentle. Um, and I just, of course, I'm, you know, 12 years old. And I'm like thinking, this, this guy's cool, you know? And I remember in the car ride back when they're dropping me off, I'm like, man, the big homie, he's so cool. He's so cool. I just kept saying this, you know? They're like, yeah, he's amazing. But obviously it was just kind of like coercing me into it and. In retrospect, do you see that as predatory and coercive or caring when there's a kid who doesn't have a father that's looking after him?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, he, rest his soul, but he, he was known for doing that. And so he brought a lot of the homies into the hood. And, um, he would use them. Cause at the end, it, that same dude asked me to do a mission, which is do something for me. And he, he said it. He was like, hey, bro, like, you know, these people are my enemies. And you know, if you're my homie, they're your enemies. And as he started to lace me down as to what gang culture was. And again, I'm like, I don't know who these guys are, but they're just the opposition. So because I love you and you're my homie, like I'll do it for you, you know? And so through that, um, that's where I caught my first case. It was this guy, he was like, this guy thinks he's all that, you know, he's a well-known drug dealer in our neighborhood.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  And, um, he's like, he's stepping on our toes and he's trying to do this. So we gotta go and take him, kidnap him basically. Um, and then steal all of his stuff, you know? And if we have to beat him up or kill him, it is what it is. So I remember that was the first mission that I did. Um, unfortunately, that was the first time I got caught too. And so we all got caught. It was six of us. Um, at that time, it was the first time I learned about Rico. So Rico Act is when, you know, the government, they used it to take down like the Sicilian mob and the Italian mafia, right? In, in America, it's basically like Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, they work together to like take down these gangs. We were getting Rico'd and I didn't know that. I'm 12 years old. And so when I get caught,

• 9:13Speaker 00

  my, all my friends are telling me, yo, you're gonna do like a few months. You're a kid. Like it's not gonna be that big of a deal. You didn't smoke nobody and kill nobody. You didn't do anything, right? But then they hit me with kidnapping and robbery. And I'm like, whoa. And then it carried a pretty hefty sentence. And that's the first time I heard YA, which is California Youth Authority. And then my friends were like, oh shoot, you're going to YA. And then they were all shocked because it was my first offense. I shouldn't have been going to YA. YA is like where, you know, kids kill their parents and like burn the house down. It's like the worst of the worst. Serial killers, kid, child serial killers would be in there. Um, just crazy stuff.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  And so they had me going there solely because of the Rico Act. So they were like this guy, I remember hearing like he's a child assassin. You know, they're training him to be this and this and this gang and they would line up uh cases of my friends who are already indicted and doing prison time and they were all in there for murder. So they're like, these are his friends. Path that this kid is on. We need to get out ahead of it. Yes, exactly. Guilt by association. Yeah. And then so they basically were like, yeah, it makes sense. You know, they're like, look at him. He's like young looking, but he doesn't listen. He didn't, you know, he has a good childhood. They're just like throwing this out there. Killer in white. Yeah. And I'm like, what the heck is going on? And then I hear four years. They're like, okay, you're gonna get four years for this.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Um, you're gonna plea out basically. And I took basically a dissuading a witness for the benefit of a gang. It was a lesser charge. Um, and then they said, you're gonna have to do fifty percent of that halftime. And, you know, and the judge was just like, I hope you can learn your lesson, you know, because where you're going, he's like, it's, it's, it's gonna, it's very rough. So I ended up going to SRCC, which is Southern Reception, which is California Youth Authority. From there, you fight. Right off, we get off the bus. Um, people are just like, you know, it's testing me. That's what they ask. Where are you from? And I'm just like, oh, from Wanching. And they're like, what? And then they just crack me boom. And I'm like, what's going? And I don't even know where this guy's from. We're fighting. And then they, it comes back like two minutes later, the guy's like, hey, you fought my friend?

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Like, I'm his homie. You gotta fight me. So it's called lining it up. So remember the first night that I was That's the first time. First night. Yeah, yeah. First day. And I'm like, oh, so they, it's called a ramfla, which means a car in Spanish. And basically what it is is if you fight this one guy, you have to fight all of his friends too. And I didn't know that. And so I'm in there and I think I fought like six to eight people the first night. And I'm just like, they were between also like twelve, thirteen. I think the oldest one I fought was sixteen. He beat me up bad, obviously, twelve and sixteen year old. No match, you know? Um, and then, yeah, you do that. And then the second day I fought four people. And then after that, it was like, okay, he has respect. He's gonna fight.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  But then I saw people who wouldn't fight. And unfortunately, they would get taken advantage of. Whether it's people would steal from them, um, or I would witness people like being them as well, right? So, um, you know, you grow up in that environment and I'm thinking, okay, I just gotta get through this for like two years. Right? And I remember saying that to one of the older homies who was in there. He was like, he had the keys, meaning like he controlled like the the little clique that we had in there, like the Asians. And he goes, bro. And I remember this vividly. He goes, forget about your life. Like, once you get here, like you're, it's over for you. You're either gonna catch a murder or you're gonna like catch more time because YA, it does something to you. I remember him saying that.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  And it's true because I would see the COs, correctional officers doing like wicked things. They would pit us against each other and call it gladiator school where we're fighting each other. Um, and they would bet on us, you know, it's just, it was bad. How did it change you? I remember it. It just made me more like, if I just had the thought that someone was disrespecting me. They didn't even have to. If I just felt it, or anyone felt it, you take off. So it was very violent. And, and again, within those four years, I think I fought like forty plus people, right? And i- it's just like, did you say something? What? And then you crack them. It's just, there is no talking in there. It's all gang banging.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  And then new people would come in, which we, which we call fish. They'll come in and will do the same thing. Hey, where are you from? Oh, you're an enemy. We won't say anything. Crack them. Boom, we start fighting. And so it made me deal with like violence as like a universal language, right? It's like, you don't have to talk. You don't need, just beat them up and then everyone's gonna praise you. And then it felt like I felt like, I felt like I fit in, right? I'm like, oh, wow, I could beat this guy up. And people are like, wow, that's Johnny. He did this, he did that. And so I felt a sense of, as weird as it is, pride to be able to do something like that. And so I get out of prison, um, you know, California Youth Authority. And I remember trying to just, you know, they parole me back to my mom's uh place.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Uh, my dad at this time hasn't really visited me or anything. He's just, you know, like still being drunk and doing his own thing. My mom, um, starts to take Buddhism way more serious. Like she was serious about Buddhism, but she was like, when I came, she was like zen out, right? Like, oh, there's karma and put your shoes here. And there's, there's a Feng Shui and you know, and I'm like, okay. And I last sixty seven days, uh, two months and a week, and I end up doing a freeway shooting. And this time I'm sixteen, going on seventeen. And they basically bring up all my past again. They try me. Was it the same gang, the same group?

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Same, same neighborhood. Yeah. So when you're in a gang, you're, most of the time you're in it for life, right? So it's just how it is. Um, and so same gang, I end up doing a shooting, but this time it wasn't them telling me. This was transparently just me. Looking, having the YA mentality, which is, this car was driving on the sixty freeway. And I remember they were just stacking, which is like throwing up gang signs. It's Mexicans. And at that time, we were again at war with these people. So I remember seeing them and then they were like looking at me. It was two guys in the car. And I had the gun on me and um, I was just like, kinda stacking back at them. And then I was like, man, F this. And I just started shooting at them. Um, and then I went on the run. Obviously, like, it was my dad's car that I took for a joyride. So the warrant came back

• 15:30Speaker 00

  to the address and, you know, they basically Do you think those, those guys in the car rang you in? Uh, I don't believe so. How did the police find out that it was you? I mean, I, I mean, it was on the freeway. So I'm pretty sure. Someone else saw it. Yeah, it's like, it's like in front of I don't see you were moving. Yeah. I was shooting at a moving vehicle. So they charged me with uh, attempted murder, obviously, shooting at an inhabited vehicle. Shooting in, in a public space. Yeah, there's other cars behind, people. All this stuff. And I'm just like, holy moly. And then I was looking at nineteen to life for one charge and then twenty five for the other. It was just stacked up against me. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay. So now I'm, I'm fearful because obviously like I, I've done YA.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  But I've heard stuff about prison. Prison is like the big boys. And I thought I would just go back to YA. Maybe I can handle the stretch. Sixteen still? Sixteen. Yeah, going on seventeen. And um, they're like, no, we're gonna try you as an adult. Again, the first time I ever heard that. I'm like, I'm not an adult though. But they're like, we're gonna try you. And during that time in that era. I mean, it's gotta be, I guess. Well, yeah, it, it started to become, right? Because it was just like, yeah, these guys are wild. So they know what they're doing. It doesn't matter if their frontal lobe is developed or whatever. It's just what it is, right? And so, um, yeah, I get tried and I get sentenced and I get points. And they're like, you go to level four, which is maximum security.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  I'm a kid kid, right? And um, it takes like a few months, obviously. And I, and when I hit prison, I'm seventeen. Um, I plea out for basically uh, two counts of assault with deadly weapon. They give me ten years. Uh, I have to do eighty five percent of that. So I just did four, got out. Now I'm doing ten, basically, minimum eight years, depending on my behavior. I might do the full. I might catch another case and get washed. And do life. I mean, it just, we don't know. Yeah. And then I get up in there and um, I get laced down. It's completely different. The first day I get in there, I'm like, oh, that guy, he's from this gang, which is a rival gang of ours. All right, I'm gonna take off on him.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  The guy who was leading me through the prison was like, that's a no-no. And I'm like, what? I'm a YA baby. And he goes, you guys need to calm your ass down. That's literally what he said. He goes, in prison, it's race. California specifically, it's race against other races. All that gang stuff gets dropped. Like, yes, you're in your hood and you represent, but you don't fight each other. I'm like, but he shot my cousin. Like, it doesn't matter. It's like, that, that's all, this is the politics. And that's the first time I learned what politicking is. In prison, it's like, no, even though you're enemy, you have to back them up. And again, it shook my world upside down, right? I'm like, it was, I was cool with my gang being against everybody. That's cool. I like that.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  But now I gotta be cool with these guys and I gotta, so for the first two years, I didn't program well. Went to the shoe a lot, the whole Program well mean? Proning means, it means like, like going with the program. Uh, meaning like you have to stick with the rules and regulations. I wasn't really good at that. I was still fighting my cellmates and which is, you can't do the stuff like that. I would get uh, disciplined. They call it DP, discipline where if you do something to your cellmate or you act out of character, these guys will beat you up. And so I was getting beat up a lot because I was just a knucklehead. And so And this is the

• 18:47Chris Williamson?

  Uh, the training, the, the rhythm of life that you learned in YA.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:51Chris Williamson?

  Now being ported across into prison.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they knew, they were like, you're a YA baby, aren't you? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, you have to calm down. You will die in here. And I think, uh, you know.

• 19:01Chris Williamson?

  Seems like it's less violent, but more lethal.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:04Chris Williamson?

  In prison.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes. That's a good way to put it. It was definitely less violent, but more lethal. And when it was violent, it was race against race. So there is no friendlies, as we call it, meaning one on ones. It's like, hey, if you disrespect me, the whole race goes to war. So I would see riots, right? One guy did something, hey, you stepped into my, out of bounds, you went to my area. And then they'll disrespect and then everybody goes to war, blacks, Mexicans, whites, whatever, all together. So, yeah, it was, it was crazy. But because of that, there was also this mutual level of respect. Where it's like, okay, you're dangerous and we're dangerous. Like, let's just.

• 19:41Chris Williamson?

  Can't play with this.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:43Chris Williamson?

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• 20:27Chris Williamson?

  And right now you can get twenty-five dollars off, bringing it down to three hundred and forty bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save twenty-five dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. What's the real status hierarchy inside of prison?

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, it depends, right? Like, general population is where you go there and you don't have a jacket. Now, a jacket is any charge that's very bad, like rape, for example, uh, molestation charges, snitching, um, dropouts, meaning turning away, those are like the bottom of the bottom. GP is top of the bottom, meaning like gang members, um, you know, extortionists, loan shark, whatever, they can be at the top only because they're solid and ten toes, as we say. But if, yeah, if you're doing things like crimes against women, you're seen as like the bottom of the barrel and you can't even be in general population. Uh, because they'll roll you off the yard, which means if they find out and they check your paperwork,

• 21:30Speaker 00

  which the first couple of months you have to walk around with, uh, it's like a manila folder, it's a C file, criminal file. You carry it on the yard. This is again, only California, usually. Um, they have a different system.

• 21:41Chris Williamson?

  Like carrying home walk around.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then they, people who have the keys or representatives, like MAC reps, block reps, they'll open it and be like, okay, he's good to stay. If you're no good, which means you have that jacket, you get rolled off. But nine times out of ten, the correction officers know, they're not gonna let some random dude come into general population because it's like sharks. You'd have like a guppy in a shark tank, right? So they'll put you in S and Y, special needs and sensitive and, or PC protective custody. Um, but yeah, I was in general population. They call it mainline. So on the mainline, there's different politics. And then PC, I don't know, I've never been, but they have their own politics too. Um, but basically, yeah, if you're a snitch, if you're no good, if you've, uh, defected from the gang, if you,

• 22:27Speaker 00

  you know, did crimes against women or children, you are definitely not gonna be with the, the, the.

• 22:33Chris Williamson?

  Do you know the word nonce? Do you know what that is?

• 22:35Speaker 00

  Nonsense.

• 22:35Chris Williamson?

  Okay. So it's a, like a British slang word for a pedophile. But it's a, it's an acronym and it stands for not on normal courtyard exercise.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  Hmm, okay.

• 22:48Chris Williamson?

  So that's not too dissimilar to this. Not a normal courtyard exercise.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:52Chris Williamson?

  Uh, so they're kept off to one side.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:54Chris Williamson?

  What, um, what behavior or behaviors makes someone look weak inside?

• 22:59Speaker 00

  In prison?

• 23:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  So two things, um, if you back down from anything. So when they ask you to raise your hand, meaning to volunteer for a stabbing, uh, because somebody was in there in general population but turned snitch, or ran up a drug debt and then they do something crazy and they don't pay it back, you have to kind of take care of these people. It's called cleaning house, right? Um, if they don't do it, then you're looked down upon. The second thing is, um, if you don't program correctly, which is that's part of it, but in the point where if you're sitting there and, you know, um, you're not working out, you're lazy, you're not running the program with people, you're not militant, um, you're not a man, you're not backing yourself up, you're not

• 23:44Speaker 00

  keeping your word looked down upon. And again, people get rolled off the yard for that. Um, the last thing is also religion. If you go in there and you turn Christian, big no-no. A lot of people treat you as, I mean, they, they won't treat you like a snitch, but you're like just a little bit of, you're like mid-tier.

• 24:03Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Because it's seen as weak. Um, you know, in prison, you don't have mental health illness, like awareness. They see mental health illnesses as weakness. So in prison, it's all about bravado, right? Hey, I'm, I'm, I don't cry at night, I'm a gangster. And so, um, they basically, you know, if you're like, hey, I'm Christian now, now you can't program. Because if you're a true Christian, you can enact violence on people, right? So you can't sin, as they say. And so, yeah, I would see that. I would see people get rolled off because they're like, I don't want to be part of the program. I would see other people and I would look down on them, you know, transparently, when they would be, I would see, because, you know, in there for a long time, you see people's kind of

• 24:46Speaker 00

  lives, lives change. They'll go from the most craziest people and then become Christian and be turned down, as we say, just, they're just not like that anymore. And they'll do things where they'll, they'll cop an unlock, they'll get an unlock to go to church to avoid riot days and like, it's like, oh, I'm in church though, you know? So we would really look down on them and be like, you guys are just women.

• 25:06Chris Williamson?

  How quickly does morality change when weakness gets punished?

• 25:11Speaker 00

  It's, it's very fast. It's swift, right? Um, people go from, I mean, I'll share this story, it's pretty wild, but I remember a dude, he was very respected. Um, he ended up having some allegations brought to him of like stealing. And again, in prison, stealing is also like a no-no. You're stealing from the poor, like everyone's struggling, why would you steal? So they were saying he was stealing and no one really believed it at first, but then another guy who was also very solid was like, he is, he stole my stuff. And sure enough, the proof was there. Um, so he didn't, the guy didn't know that the proof was, like, they gave the evidence, right?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  And so I remember, um, kind of walking past the dude and then my friend was like, hey, watch what's gonna happen. And I'm like, okay. And so everyone's shaking his hand and this other kid, you know, he's young, he just goes up to the guy. And then he goes up to him with another older cat, um, who's like, kind of like a, like a dude who just puts in work. He's like a grunt, right? And he's like, hey, bro, like big homie, like, you're, you're, you're, he was a really buff guy, you know? The physique back then is like, everyone's really ripped because they're working out. He's like, I bet you can't do a hundred burpees right now. And the guy's like, what are you talking about? Do it right? You're challenging me? All right. And he starts doing them. Boom, boom. He's hitting the burpees. And he's getting gassed because it's a lot. And he's like, yeah, yeah, I bet you can't do more. And he's like, trying it, right?

• 26:38Speaker 00

  And then he gets up and he takes a breath and then the guy stabs him, boom, and hits him in the chest. And that's, that's the first time I seen someone leak out. So what he was doing was, he was getting his heart rate up to like, make sure he would bleed him out quicker. Yeah. So you'll see things like this where it's like, you and him were just friends. You're literally, it looks like it's a friendly game, but it's all manipulation.

• 27:01Chris Williamson?

  Insidious.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. And so when you see stuff like that, it made me go, I'm not trusting anybody. You're not telling me to do this and do that. You're gonna do something to me, right? And so morale, yeah, it goes like this where you're, one minute they're fighting on the, on the yard with you and they're stabbing people for you. And then the next minute they're, they're turning it on you. And so it, it bred this, uh, mindset of you cannot trust anybody.

• 27:24Chris Williamson?

  Massive distrust.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  Doesn't matter. Yeah. Doesn't matter who it is. You cannot trust anybody. Yeah.

• 27:30Chris Williamson?

  That's a massive difference, I think, maybe a misconception that civilians probably have about prison violence, just how manipulative and insidious it can be.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's again, like story, there's hundreds of stories like that where people are just thinking of ways to prey on you. And it really is in prison predator and prey, unfortunately, right? You're either, um, from a era where you either catch a body or you be a body. That's how prison is. It's like you either kill somebody or you don't, you know? And if you program, you can hide behind the car a little bit, that's just normal. But there are times where your, your, your number gets called. It's just how it is. It just, it's not, you know, every single prison, it's a little bit different, but I can only speak for like four yards in California.

• 28:13Chris Williamson?

  How many, how many, uh, places were you in?

• 28:15Speaker 00

  I've been to.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  So you go to county jail first YA, but prisons alone, I've been to like four separate prisons.

• 28:25Chris Williamson?

  In that one stretch?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, so level four and then what happens is your points drop. It's a point system. The more you're like, um, good time and you good behavior, your points will naturally just drop. And then you go to level three. So um, paroling at a level three. Um, but basically, yeah, when your points are really high, you're basically like, if you do murder, extremely high and you're gonna go with level four, which is maximum security. Um, it's just the top of the top. And so I'm I'm talking about level four is intense like this. Level three is not as bad, less riots, um, definitely some fighting. There is riots, it's crazy too. But not where it's all weapons, right? Level four is only stabbings. There is no like, hey, let's fight. It's like, no, we're gonna stab you. So that story I told you happened on a level four.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  Right? So, yeah.

• 29:13Chris Williamson?

  How long were you spending in each? What were you, what was the proposal?

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Uh, so it was what, four years? No, five years, level four. And then like three, three and a half years, level three. Yeah.

• 29:26Chris Williamson?

  What was the most dangerous situation that you found yourself in?

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Um, probably in a riot. Um, I remember like cracking one off and I don't wanna like disclose too much of the names and stuff, but basically it was over a drug debt and then they basically were like, hey, Johnny, you know, you, and this was out of some jealousy, I could just tell. Um, because when people find out that you're you're short to the house, which means you're going home very, you know, you're short, like you're gonna be home in like a month, two months, three months, whatever it is. They start to feel jealous of you because if they have all day, meaning they're they're doing life without parole or life. Some people get this idea of like, oh, you think you're better than us? Like, I'm gonna make it so you throw your life away.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Right? And so, um, it was purely based off of that and it was it was my fault. You know, I told somebody who I trusted um, early, early on. And I guess he remembered when I was gonna get out. And so he he had LWOP, life without. And I remember he also even dropped down in in points as well. And at the end of it, you know, he was basically like, hey, there's a drug debt, we gotta roll this guy off, basically. He gotta put him, put in work uh, on him. You have to do it. And he's telling me, and I was like, okay. And I wanted to say I was short to the house, but I was like, I'm gonna look like a

• 30:45Chris Williamson?

  You don't wanna be a bitch?

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm gonna look like a girl, right? And so I'm like, alright, I got you. So what's gonna happen? Well, you're gonna crack it off. And I'm like, alright, cool. Meaning you started. So I remember this dude. Huge Samoan dude, right? Big ol' Uso, he and and um, the homie, I was like, like, this is all manipulation, but I'm like, I I'm too deep now. So he's like, you, you, you, you guys go together. Alright, cool. Six of us, one of him. He was pruned out, which is um, like, like drunk, right? And he was known for, again, running up debt, beating up his cellmates and but no one would say anything to him because he's huge, right? Um, and uh, I remember just going up to him like, what's up, Uso, how you doing? And I shook his hand.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  And I remember with all my might, I socked him in the face and he just went, like, looked at me and I was like, oh, snap. And then he cocked back and then everybody jumped in on him. And I remember this guy is like super strong because we were stomping him out. And he had blood in his mouth and he was laughing. He's like, oh, guys, oh, stop, oh, he's like this. And we were just like, damn, this guy is is took six of us. We still couldn't get him like, you know, uh, completely rolled off. But you know, uh, then the COs came and the OC pepper spray and gas and all that. But um, I, you know, stuff like that where it was very sticky.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Cause I, again, I cracked it off. I could have, you know, caught a violent charge. That would have been a strikeout for me. Right? If they were, if they were to, you know, uh, uh, either snitch or I get caught in the act. Um, they would have struck me out. I would have did a minimum of twenty five to life there.

• 32:27Chris Williamson?

  For that one incident?

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's just, and it, this is like, because court, even in prison, where a lot of people catch life is in is in in prison. Because they think like, well, I'm already in prison. You can't, no, you can trump charges in prison. Uh, people have, I've met many people in there for five year stretch and they get called, their number gets called and they go and they do a stabbing and they end up killing the guy. They get caught for it and now they have, they went from five years to life, right? It's just how especially California is like this.

• 32:58Chris Williamson?

  And what if you refuse?

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Um, then you get rolled off, uh, then you get stabbed, then what's gonna come to them is gonna come to you. And so for me, it was just very difficult to like, it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't. You gotta choose the lesser of the two evils, you know? And um, yeah, it was more, it was very sadistic in a lot of ways, but also it made me feel like this adrenaline of like, oh, I can prove myself. Yes, they're using me, but like, I can, I can also do this.

• 33:24Chris Williamson?

  Sounds intoxicating. The respect that you get sounds intoxicating.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. Yeah, it's it's almost like an addiction in itself. Yeah, some people I know in there till this day are like, they just raise their hand just to, because it's it's like you you get infamous for it. Oh, that guy did, oh, he was in the hole. Whoa, this guy did that. Did you see him? And it just spreads like wildfire.

• 33:46Chris Williamson?

  Feels like gangs manufacture belonging better than society does for some men.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  That's a bar, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:57Chris Williamson?

  What do you think, uh, what were the hardest things to unlearn after prison?

• 34:03Speaker 00

  The hardest thing to unlearn was that you have your own back and that you're like the master of your own destiny. In prison, you learn, yes, they lock you in, but there's this confidence of like, I made it out. And so there's this heart of, I can do whatever I want because I've been to like the lowest of the low. So there is a pride in it and it's again, an intoxicating pride. And it just feels very high hearted is the best way to explain it. So I had to unlearn that. I had to unlearn the criminal mindset where it was like, how do I take advantage of this person? So the manipulative mindset was very difficult for me to learn because, to unlearn, because it's ingrained in you.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Right? Okay, well, I'm hungry. So how am I gonna hustle? Okay, I'll take this and have this guy give me these stamps and then with these stamps I'll trade it for this person and I know that person needs money right now. So it's like, it's all the ecosystem.

• 35:00Chris Williamson?

  That's the vulnerability that you exploit here.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  Yes. And so I think that was the hardest thing was people would come to me like my friends and I would pick up on patterns. Oh, he struggles at nighttime and he wants to do cocaine during these hours, like, not, I'm not even paying attention. It would just come to me. Right? So I think um, unlearning the manipulation definitely was difficult. The anger uh, that goes from zero to a hundred and then back to zero was difficult. It's like every little sign of disrespect, the anger just, you just take it there.

• 35:33Chris Williamson?

  How quickly were you able to sleep after something like that happened? Would your head hit the pillow and you'd be able to sleep normally at night?

• 35:39Speaker 00

  That's when I felt like I was broken, was when I did the, like a stabbing in prison. And then I was like, proud of it. And then it was just like, dang, is there something wrong? And there's like that little voice, right of like, there's something wrong, but I would, I would like drown that out because I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm I'm good. Like, they deserve, and I would, I would uh, try to, I guess, pacify myself, but also defend that. No, they'd see, they were, they did this, they shouldn't have.

• 36:04Chris Williamson?

  Nationalizing.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Yes. And so that was also very difficult. I guess then accountability, right? It's like, how do you, I I I I remember early on, my homies would say that to me and these are other gang members who do the same thing. So it's, you know, it's bad when they're like, bro, you're manipulative. I'm like, you're a manipulator, calling me a manipulator, right? So I just remember them saying like, you're never wrong. And they would, that that would be the running joke. Bro is never wrong. Like, don't even talk to him, bro is never wrong. I, what, what do you mean? Let's get up then, let's fight, you know? I see, you see what I'm saying? Like, and then just like, man, whatever, you're a bitch. And then they're just like, whatever. And they just knew, like, that's how he is. He's just been in prison way too long. And he just, he just thinks he's right all the time and he pops off.

• 36:47Chris Williamson?

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• 37:32Chris Williamson?

  Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below. Heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. Feels like brotherhood requires an enemy in this way. Like you guys are uh, bound together, bonded together

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:54Chris Williamson?

  over the mutual tribalism of it not being

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah, it it it really is. Cause it's like, there are times, it's interesting that you say that because I remember there's times where we didn't have an enemy. Like, everyone was our enemy and then people got locked up and then we kind of made a lot of gangs go defunct. And then we start beefing with each other. We literally like, it's called set tripping. We would hate on each other.

• 38:18Chris Williamson?

  Set tripping?

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Set tripping.

• 38:19Chris Williamson?

  Set tripping.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Set, S S E T, set. So set tripping means like you're from a set, you're from a set. So the way my gang works is an an umbrella. Right? It's it's like, think of Bank of America, but there's like the Austin branch and the California branch. Right? So it, we're all Bank of America, basically, but we'd trip on each other. And um, yeah, that was also really crazy as well. But yeah, um, it's interesting that you say that.

• 38:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think you see it. Was it, um, men destroy others in times of war and themselves in times of peace. And it's kind of the same thing with the Brotherhood piece here that, hey, if we've got nobody else to fight, well, I need to fight someone. And there's no one on the outside, so I'll stop fighting somebody on the inside.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  That's good. Yeah, no, that's interesting.

• 39:03Chris Williamson?

  What are?

• 39:05Chris Williamson?

  What was integration like coming back out? Cause you've done basically apart from sixty seven days.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:11Chris Williamson?

  What twelve?

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Thirteen years.

• 39:13Chris Williamson?

  Twelve and a half, thirteen years back to back.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was hard. I remember just unlearning a lot of things that I had to learn. I mean, uh, it did teach me structure. I think that was one of the benefits where I would come home and I was already just make your bed. You know, it was, it was good. I was kind of like very productive, as weird as that sounds. But I, I, I knew I was broken. This one incident, it was like a couple of months after I got out. I finally decided like, all right, I'm gonna get out the house a little bit. I'm gonna explore, cause when you go to prison, there's, there's things that you don't wanna be around. You don't wanna be around too many people. You get this social anxiety because you get, you know, you're like, it's almost like you get claustrophobic.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  It's at the same feeling of claustrophobic, but in the open, if that makes sense. Like it feels better to just be like alone. And so I would feel that, number one.

• 40:09Chris Williamson?

  You didn't like to be around too many people when you came out?

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I would be watching their every move. I would see people cross in front of you, like when you're speaking and someone walks, like that's very disrespectful, right? And you have to say, excuse me in prison, like if I'm walking around, some excuse me, it's very respectful. Cause there's mutual violence. Well, in the world, it's not like that. Somebody can run into you and you're just like, yo, what the hell? And then they just keep walking, right? So I, I was like, all right, let me avoid that, cause I, I'm, I know myself, I'll catch a case and go crazy. So, and finally I get out and I'm like, all right, I gotta go get some stuff, groceries, whatever. I go to Walmart and I remember I'm blown away, cause I'm like, yo, you could get like tires and then like, I don't know, food. And it's like all in one, right?

• 40:51Chris Williamson?

  I'm blown away too, being British, there's no, we don't have to.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 40:56Chris Williamson?

  So you know. I'm making an analogy between being British and going to prison.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  But I, you know, I get there and I remember seeing the correctional or the, the security guard, I'm sorry. And I'm like, hey, can you take me to the restroom? And he kinda looks at me and he goes, yeah, the code is, it's, you go all the way in the back to the right, the code is. And I'm like, yeah, but can you take me? And that's when I realized I'm free, but I wasn't free in here, because in prison.

• 41:19Chris Williamson?

  Saw a guy in a uniform.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and that's what they're supposed to do, especially on four yards, is they take, you don't just go to the restroom. You could do contraband, they, they take you there. And you gotta like go back, you know, and have them kinda monitor you.

• 41:32Chris Williamson?

  So it's like you'd been conditioned, like Pavlovian conditioning of see man in uniform.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:38Chris Williamson?

  Need bathroom.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:39Chris Williamson?

  Ask man in uniform to take me to bathroom.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's when he saw me and he was just like, yeah, the code is this. And I'm like, but you gotta take me though. And then I was dead serious, like deadpan, and he was just like, oh, we don't, we don't do that here.

• 41:52Chris Williamson?

  I don't offer that service.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I was like, oh wait, so I just get the code? And he's like, yeah, you just go and you, and then I walked and I remember having like chills, like what the heck? This is weird.

• 42:04Chris Williamson?

  It's like being a child.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:05Chris Williamson?

  It's like being, it's like being a child and not knowing like I, I have to put my hand in the air. I have to have.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:11Chris Williamson?

  Permission to do this thing.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then my friends who did prison time too would come over, my, my light would still be on past like nine PM, ten PM. And they're just like, bro, turn off your lights, bro. And again, in prison, they shut it off for you automatically. So there's little things like this where I didn't real. Yeah, I didn't realize, I was like, oh, oh, that's true. And so, you know, I think that's when I just really was like, dude, I, I didn't feel institutionalized, but I guess I was.

• 42:39Chris Williamson?

  Such an arrested development though, from twelve until fucking twenty five.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:45Chris Williamson?

  It is so formative.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:48Chris Williamson?

  It's more formative, it is. If you've been from zero until thirteen, it would have probably been less formative than from twelve to twenty five.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 42:57Chris Williamson?

  You know?

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, true, yeah.

• 43:00Chris Williamson?

  Crazy. Okay, so back into the real world, what are you doing?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  So, uh, I kinda wanna back it up a little bit. Prior to that, I obviously, you know, the, the only religion that was really respected in prison was, was being Muslim. And so I remember seeing a guy, um, he was like my first mentor, I would say. I, you know, my gang being as big as it is, I had a lot of friends who were in prison. So when I hung out with them, we would, I would know them, you know, hear about them and stories about them and actually hung out with them. But I never had an actual mentor mentor who was like someone I looked up to, right? I looked up to them, cause they were gangster, but I knew that they couldn't really help me. I remember meeting this guy, he was, um, you know, Muslim guy, middle eastern guy. He ran with the others, which is our car, our group.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  And, um, he was very well respected, which I thought was weird. Okay, so he's religious, he prays, Ramadan comes around, he has a special diet, bro reads, carries himself very respectfully, works out. You know, all of that. And I remember, um, you know, him just being very respectful to me. He, he knew about my history, you know, China has five thousand years of history. You're Chinese, right? You're northern Chinese, you're taller, you know, I'm just like, what the heck? This guy's giving me a history lesson on my own, exactly. And he just knew, he was a smooth networking guy, right? And so he's like, yeah, bro, like you gotta, I remember him saying, you gotta brain. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, you gotta use that, bro, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, yeah, he's like, with all due respect, you know, I'm just letting you know. And he's like, you should sell with me.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  And I was like, okay, cause you can make requests to like live with certain people. And I was, I was having an issue with one of my Vietnamese homies, my cellmates at that time. So I was like, yeah.

• 44:40Chris Williamson?

  How many people per cell?

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Uh, two. Yeah, so I end up, you know, moving in with him. And yeah, lo and behold, he starts to kinda convert me a little bit, but it was very good. I felt, I think for the first time, a little bit of sense of purpose. Cause he was like, yo, let's get up, bro, Sally, let's get up, let's work out, man. And I'm like, cool. And he, he would challenge me, push me. And, um, I was like in the best shape of my life at that time. And he's like, you should read this. And he brought me, I remember it was like The Art of War, uh, with, um, General Sun Tzu. And he's like, these are your people, bro, you should read this, like, you ever done that, man? Buddhism is amazing too, but like, and he starts talking about Islam. And he's like, we're a religion of peace and, you know, and I learned everything from it. And my whole family's from this bloodline and these people. And I was like, cool.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  I was like, can I be a Muslim? And he's like, yeah, a hundred percent. I was like, do you think the homies are gonna feel some type of way, meaning the people on the yard? Like, no, no, look at, they respect us. Like, the only thing is like being Christian, bro. And he said it, you know, he's like, and there's no disrespect to them, but like, it's just, it's very hypocritical. So if you do do this, you have to be a hundred percent in it. And I think that's why, and he explained it, that's why people respect Islam. It's like when we do it, we're all the way in, praying five times a day. We take it serious, because everything else is haram or sin, you know? And, um, I'm like, cool, I'll, I'll, I'll do it.

• 45:59Chris Williamson?

  So Islam's seen as a more rigid, more disciplined religion?

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 46:04Chris Williamson?

  Because Christianity seems to be, I had, uh, Sam Harris on the show a couple of years ago, and he had this description, which I've never been able to forget. And he says that Islam's a high T religion. It is, it's like a high testosterone religion, whereas Christianity in many ways is turning the other cheek. It's about forgiveness, it's about grace to your neighbor, et cetera, et cetera.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:24Chris Williamson?

  Uh, so I can imagine in a prison environment, why respect and power is really respected.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:29Chris Williamson?

  Islam would fit itself way more.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 46:32Chris Williamson?

  Like, I mean, maybe even lower than the Christians might be the Buddhists, because they're all about the peace.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

• 46:38Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's crazy. Okay, so you start.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:41Chris Williamson?

  Thinking a bit more about theology.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I start, you know, studying with him and he's, he was so open minded that he's like, you know, a true Muslim reads the Bible too. And I was like, interesting. So he started again, teaching me everything. These are the books before it, we gotta pull from Moses and all this, and we call.

• 46:58Chris Williamson?

  This guy sounds awesome.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was really cool, honestly. And he, you know, ends up converting me and we just kinda like, for, for a good two to three years, I'm like a hundred percent hardcore Sunni Muslim. And, you know, I'm learning all these things. The one thing that I start to recognize though, is that there was some things that were going against, like their teachings was kinda going against how we programmed on the yard. So I think my first religion was gang banging, right? Obviously, and it was just a, a mechanical for me. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, there's certain things that are going against, like, you know, I read verses and I tried to ask him. Where I saw it was bad was when I asked him, he got defensive towards me.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  And that was the first time I saw that when I questioned, it was like, hey, respectfully, you don't know the Arabic and you don't know, so don't ask me that. And he even said it like, it's very disrespectful that you're doing that, cause I'm like an Imam to you, meaning a leader. You're not supposed to, and I'm like, but I thought we're supposed to ask questions and like, what the heck? And so that kinda made me feel the betrayal that I felt, right? From a young age, like dang, I finally found something like my hood. No one's visiting me at this time, so I felt betrayed by them. And then this guy did this, where I'm like, yo, I'm leaning on you, and I feel that betrayal again.

• 48:14Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  And, um, the one thing that really solidified me to leave was that, again, stand up guy, I still respected him as a human being, you know? He was, he was well respected. He, he was like, yeah, I'm getting out of here. So he was a lifer, but he got out, you know, he got a chance to parole. And everyone's like, bro, we know you're gonna make it out there, you're studied, you're smart, whatever. Six months later, he comes back. And that's when I realized, holy crap, like I'm done. I'm not even as disciplined as bro, I'm not as articulate and smart as him. I don't think I'll make it out there. And I remember at that time, I was thinking about, should I catch my last strike in here and just live in here? Because I don't know if I'm gonna make it out there. If this guy can't make it out there and he had, he makes wakes up every morning, is disciplined, he's studied.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  He doesn't even have any like gang in mentality, any of that. Then what the heck, I'm cooked basically. And so, you know, I was thinking about that, but thank God, by the grace of God, I was able to make it out. And um, so I get out and I'm trying to fly straight because I'm like, I don't want to go back to this. Um, I've spent all of my adolescence, basically, and youth in prison. What do I do now? Right? And I try to fly straight, um, transparently, I'm like, let me go and and just apply to everything. Home Depot, Walmart. But the way that it was back then, it just wasn't as open as it is now. So when you check that box that says, have you ever committed a crime? And then you have to give the information and be real. The first couple, I lied because I was just like, alright, I'm gonna check it. I'm gonna say like petty theft or something, right?

• 49:43Speaker 00

  But they obviously do a background check and they found out that I had violent crimes. And I didn't even get callbacks or anything. And so during that time, I think I felt very, again, very angry and frustrated. And then I was like, F it, you know, I'm gonna go back to this, this life that I know. Started plugging in with the homies, started running, started doing stuff and then making forty, fifty K a month allegedly. Right? And um, and, and, and uh, you know, I'm making this money. I got a penthouse now, you know, buying certain things and I'm just living that gangster lifestyle. Women and drugs and everything.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  And yeah, I end up just feeling still this emptiness and this void that I had felt in prison, but I think I had stuffed it away or maybe because of the environment was so chaotic that I didn't really pay attention to. But I had again, this emptiness and I'm like, okay, maybe I gotta make more money. Maybe I gotta do more drugs, maybe I gotta, and I just amped it up. I went crazy with it to, to the point where I almost overdosed, I was crazy. Still emptiness and like, the way I describe it was like a hole in my heart that no matter what I did, it didn't matter the productivity that I did. I could make way more money this month, it did not matter. It was like at nighttime, it would be, my thoughts would come and haunt me. It would be one thought leads into ten thoughts, leans into fifty thoughts.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  I'm feeling like nothing's happening externally, everything is internal. I feel this emptiness and this void in my heart. It feels like somebody's stepping on my heart. I can't even like inhale and exhale and then I just would cry. I would straight up like, don't know why, I'd be like, oh, I'm so empty, what's wrong with me? And then I would try to fight it. No, I'm a man, I don't do this, like, I'm good, I'm gonna get up tomorrow and I'm gonna try again. And then it was this constant, best way to explain it was like a roller coaster lifestyle. Happy when I was happy for a little bit and then sad, happy, sad, happy, sad, happy, sad. And then I felt very, very empty inside. And um, I think at that time was when I decided to try to take my life because I'm like, okay. I come up from the projects, I'm, I'm, I'm living off of food stamps when I was a kid.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  I finally get out, I had this dream that if I make five to ten K a month, I'm set. I'm making ten X, five X, ten X that and I'm still not happy. Everyone around me is like wanting my lifestyle. Because when you go to prison, it is an ecosystem where it's networking. So when I get out, I know other people have got out and because we, we run by the same program, we don't snitch, we're solid. We start to do business together. And so you start to open up these different streams of income, right? Be just solely based off of your name in prison that you're good. And so, you know, I'm making all of this money and I'm just like, why am I not happy? And then during that time, you know, uh, a friend of mine, he's like, rest his soul, but he's like,

• 52:32Speaker 00

  yeah, bro, like we, we gotta get up out this game. I think we gotta try to like fly straight. He's talking about investing and I was like, what the heck is all this stuff? You know, he's like, we can't do this, you know, there's an expiration and I'm like, alright. He was always level headed, a much smarter person than me. So there's gang members and gang bangers, right? He was a gang member, meaning like, he didn't really do work. He was like the brains and like, um, like membership. Gang banger is someone like me, just crashing out, I'll do it, yeah, like just crash dummy, right? And so we had a like a perfect combination because he was like the brains and I was like the brawn. So we, we, we, you know, planned to, to rob this uh, well-known drug dealer um, in our area.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  And he was like a multimillionaire, you know, Porsches and you know, Ferrari and all this stuff. And so um, you know, I, I, I, I go there at night, we're, we're planning on taking like twenty-five packs and some keys of cocaine. And we were just going to rob him of it, right? But we, we acted like we were buyers, like, oh yeah, we're interested, but we're gonna lick them.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  The plan was for me to go to the right of the car and the homie was supposed to go to the left of the car. So I stepped to the right, he ends up stepping to the right with me. And I'm like, okay, so I naturally obviously just go to the left. And I'm going to the driver's side and I'm like, yo, what's up homie like? And then when I pull the gun, I hear three shots ring out this way. And I actually assumed at first that it was my homie who just lit him up. And I was like, what the heck? And then the guy's like driving off and then I feel the bullets whizzing and then I see my friend had fallen. So we didn't know that the guy had so, his homie in the back, like just sitting there too, just in case he was gonna get robbed. We didn't know that, we thought it was just him.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Because he was known for just off the strength, people would respect him, they wouldn't rob him. So he'd go by himself, but we were like, no, we're gonna get you, you know? But um, he was ready, he was ready and, and it was that time that my friend died in my arms. And I think during that time, I had survivor's guilt because I'm like, I was supposed to die, right? Um, if he didn't step in front of me, I think I would have got lit up for sure and I wouldn't be here. And so that happens and then, uh, you know, a few days after I get a kite from the pen, uh, penitentiary, which is this cryptive secret letter and note uh, from a friend of mine who also grew up in the projects with me. Um, he did a, a lot of stuff with me, like I was in the gang as well.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  And he ends up, um, you know, just writing this eerie, hey brother, I miss you. I'll see you when I see you. Um, you know, I remember the good times when you miss me, look to the mountains, you know, just weird things like this. And I'm like, and I find out that he hung himself in prison. And then there's a youngster who I was very in love with. He was like a carbon copy of me when I was twelve. He was fifteen, sixteen. He ends up, um, you know, getting shot from a car to car shooting, dies on the scene. So within a matter of a week and a half, two weeks, this is, this has happened. And so in my head, obviously, I'm like, okay. Not only is this a tremendous, like I can't handle this anymore,

• 55:44Speaker 00

  but I also feel this, this, this, it was like death in the air. And as crazy as that is, thinking you're in prison and all that, I never actually felt that. I knew like there was death, but I don't feel like it would ever come to me. At this moment, it felt like there was an energy that was chasing me.

• 56:03Chris Williamson?

  Circling you.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, like you're gonna die soon.

• 56:06Chris Williamson?

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• 56:47Chris Williamson?

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• 57:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was just bad, it was bad and, but again, did not know what to do, right? I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna die then, like whatever. I'm gonna just live however I want because there's no hope in me. And then my mom's car breaks down and it's in, it's in San Bernardino. And that's about an hour away from where we live and the church that she's, she goes to. And at this time, you know, my mom's from Korea, ethnically though, she's Chinese. So she's born in Korea, speaks Korean, speaks Mandarin and English, she's trilingual. Um, she, she then is, gets a job essentially at the church as like an interpreter, right? Um, for the pastors. And she's, she calls me and she's like, Johnny, my, my, my car is broken down. Can you come and pick me up, you know?

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Um, okay, cool, where are you at? San Bernardino, oh my gosh, San Bernardino is like an hour away, like what are you doing out there? And she's like, well, car overheated, um, it's hot out here, can you please just come and take me? My brother's in prison, he's doing his fourteen-year bid at this time. My dad is obviously deadbeat dad, he's just not in the picture, he's drunk all the time still. So I'm like, alright, let me just go help mom, you know, let me do this solid for her. End up going, picking her up and then remember on the car ride to the church, I'm like, mom, do not invite me to this church, like I know how you Christians get down. You guys love to convert people and do all this crap. So I remember telling her, I'm not gonna go in.

• 58:25Chris Williamson?

  Are you can, still considering yourself Muslim at this time?

• 58:27Speaker 00

  No, no, I was already just kind of like traditionally Buddhist, but like not practicing and kind of just atheist, right? I'm like, there's something, but I don't, it's like, I don't care, you know, it's like, whatever. So I end up, um, you know, taking her there. And then I remember mom opened the door and then the smell of black bean noodles uh, enters the, the car. And it's my favorite dish, bro. It's like a Korean dish, delicacy, it's like a dry cooked noodle, it's amazing. And I smell it and I'm like, whoa, this is fire. And I had forgotten that because my dad was a chef, but. The one thing he would do, which was really weird, and I now I know why in hindsight, this is twenty twenty, is he would beat me and his way of saying sorry was he would cook black bean noodles for me.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  And so I almost had this kind of connection to him through that. It's like, okay, he would beat me up, but then it would be like the best tasting noodles. And he was a, he's a really good chef, you know? Um, so I remember that kind of triggered a memory, but it felt like comforting in some kind of way. And so I see the pastor and he just sees me and he's kind of shocked too, like, oh shoot, like, are you Johnny? Who are you? He goes, are you James or you Johnny? Which is my, my older brother and me. And I'm like, oh, I'm Johnny. He goes, well, nice to meet you. I'm Pastor Kim, you know, um, your mom, you know, I'm so sorry, like your mom kind of drove really far. Um, thank you for picking her up, you know, we'll help her with her car if she needs, it's okay. Um, but yeah, you know, we made some black bean noodles, Johnny.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  And um, I can put it in a to-go container and then just send it, send you off your way. And for some reason, cause I was really big about respect in the Asian culture. Um, you know, even in prison, like if you eat, you don't try to eat by yourself, like you, you break spread as we say, like you, you bring everybody together and you just chill and you eat. So in that culture and then kind of the gang culture, it's ingrained. I was just kind of like, like I feel a little disrespectful if I just took the food and just left. So I was just like, yeah, I'll, I'll come in and eat with you guys. And then my mom, I remember looking at me like, what the hell? You just said you weren't gonna like come in? The pastor was just kind of like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can come in like, sure, no problem.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Um, we're all eating, but like, yeah. And then I remember him taking me to the back room. And yeah, he brought me the, the, the, the black bean noodles in a bowl, brought me these, um, like Daikon, it was like yellow Daikon. And when I was eating it, it was so good. I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And it was again handmade, homemade, just authentic. Um, and then I sit down with him and then he, he talks about, you know, uh, he starts to ask me questions. He asked me these, these questions that kind of like pissed me off at first, cause he goes, are you a sinner and do you know what sin is? Right? And I'm like, here we go. So I just tell the pastor like, hey, pastor respectfully, I was a Muslim,

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  not practicing anymore. I do believe and lean more towards like peace and like Buddhism. Um, so I'm not really here for that, but you know, respectfully, like I know what sin is. And of course I'm a sinner. And he's just like, well, what is it? Right? And I'm like, whoa, it's you doing evil things that are not, you know, according to God and, and yes, have I done evil things? Of course I was in a gang. And then he goes, not so, like that's not true. And I was like, what? And I remember Catholics coming into the prisons, they had Mormons coming into prisons, other Protestants. Everybody would explain sin as breaking the commandments, messing up, going against God.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  And you have to repent, right? Sin and repentance. I knew that even though I wasn't a believer. And he, it's from him, he was like, no, it's an identity issue. So right there, he taught me basically, um, you know, the, the origin of original sin and how it's an identity. And he used a lot of analogies. He was like, you're born Chinese. And I'm like, yes. Did you choose to be Chinese? I'm like, no, what the heck is this guy talking about? He's about to get racist right now, you know? And he's just like, do you, if you eat a lot of orange chicken, would that make you more Chinese? And I'm like, no. And he goes, if you eat less orange chicken and fried rice and chow mein, would that make you less Chinese? And I'm just like, bro, get to the point, you know?

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  And he's just like, so why are you Chinese? And I'm like, why am I, I'm born that way. And he goes, exactly. He goes, sin is the same way. Um, you're born into this sin. Um, you're trying to do good in your life, you can't. And it's this constant uphill battle. And he goes, you know, what that bleeds into is emptiness. The outcome of trying to do good, an imperfect person trying to produce perfection. You then keep falling short and then when you keep falling short, you feel empty. And that's the first time somebody articulated what I was feeling inside of my heart to me. And I'm like, kind of blown away, cause I'm like, first off, this guy's ballsy, right?

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  He's telling me as a gang member that I'm, I'm empty. Basically, I'm not a man. I can't, I don't have emotional regulation and, you know, maturity and EQ. And he goes, but the thing he follows up with is that's normal. What you feel Johnny is normal. Now, all throughout my life, from my dad to even my mom calling me a monster, my dad saying, I never wanted you beating me. Me being known as a YA number and a CDC California Department Corrections number. That's the first time he kind of like humanized me, right? He's like, you're normal. And you're, you're gonna feel empty until you figure out what I'm about to tell you. And so he then explains it, right? That's why you need someone to save you out of it.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  You know, there's this person named Jesus. And I'm like, I know, I've heard of this guy, right? And he goes, um, we call him our Lord and Savior for a reason. He's like, it's to, he has to save you. And he used a lifeguard analogy, right? He's like, if you're drowning and you know, you're in the middle of the ocean and there's no one around you, what can you only do? Die, right? Um, but if a lifeguard comes and pulls you out from a boat and puts you on land, you didn't save yourself, the lifeguard saved you. In the same way, you're drowning in your depression, you're drowning in your past trauma. You're drowning in your loneliness, emptiness, anxiety, everything. You can't get yourself out of it. You're trying and you do well for a little and you fail.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  And Jesus is the one who has to get you out of it. And I guess for the first time in my life, it just clicked. It made sense. No one has ever explained that to me. I think all other religions were always like, hey, you gotta do it. There's a level of you meeting God, right? Um, and, and again, it was all mechanical for me. I, I, I realized that, oh my gosh, it's true. Productivity output was what I was focused on. And, and the issue with that is I'm at the center of that. So if I'm putting productivity, if I'm putting, you know, everything depends on my last result, let's say, then yeah, I'm gonna live like a roller coaster. Of course I'm gonna fail.

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  And so it just, it just made sense to me, you know, he put it in a way that was so palatable and digestible and simple yet profound. And it felt for the first time in my life, like true hope in this man. And again, I didn't know him from like a bum on the street. He's this Korean dude, short dude, clean cut. Mind you, he's speaking through a translator as well, cause his English isn't even good. So this random dude on the side who's just like speaking English and I'm like, who the hell are you? You're like all up in our business. But he didn't know how to speak English, right? And so I'm like, okay. All this is happening, my mom's on the side, she's like, kind of like getting emotional. And he's just like, does this make sense, Johnny? Like, I'm like, yeah, a hundred percent. So, but then what do I do now?

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Practically speaking, what? Am I just thank you, Jesus? And that's it? Like, everything gets better? I don't understand. And so he was explaining, uh, you know, all of these just core concepts to me that I've never heard. And basically, the best way I could put it is he put like a mirror in front of me for the first time. Humanized me, said I was normal and then said, this is what's wrong with you? This is how I'm gonna help you with these things. So he, he, in that moment, I didn't realize, kind of was mentoring me. Again, something I was longing for, a father figure, didn't have any of that. And um, yeah, he started to just guide me through these things. And I think we ended up staying there for like almost two hours, just talking like this. And at the end of it, I felt this peace of like, oh my gosh.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  I, I'm not alone. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I, I now just have to figure out and listen to this dude. He just understands me, which is wild, right? And um, he challenges me that day, actually, which I think was very, again, very bold of this dude, but I respected it because I'm like, this guy's like, really just not a normal person. He goes, how's your relationship with your father? And I'm like, horrible. And I know it's coming, right? You want me to forgive him? Like basically is what I said. And he's like, no, not necessarily. He's like, I just, I wanna show you some scriptures. And he showed me Romans seven fifteen, Romans seven twenty, basically says that

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  there are people that do things that they don't wanna do, like they wanna be happy, they wanna be loving, but then they end up addicted and they do the things that they don't wanna do. He goes, you, for example, did you ever think you wanted to wake up and go, you know what, I'm, I'm gonna be depressed today? And I'm like, no. So you probably hate depression. I'm like, yeah. And he goes, and yet you end up depressed. Why do you think that is? And I'm like, I don't know. And then he gives me the verse seven twenty. If I do the things that I'm doing, it's no more I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. And he explains it. It's because you waking up going, I'm not gonna be depressed today, I'm not gonna be this today. Is the same as saying, I'm not gonna be Asian today or Chinese today. And he's like, do you think that's possible or impossible? I was like, impossible.

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  He's like, and it's also because you've never learned, you've never learned another system other than this system here, right? And so he's like, if you're willing to, like, I wanna like help you with that. But there's one thing that I need from you. And then he talks about my dad, right? He goes, you should apologize to your father. And I'm like, literally? I mean, excuse my language, but I was like, fuck that. I straight up told him, fuck that. And he was just like, that's fair, that's valid, hear me out, you know, hear me out. He goes, I understand. And I'm like, where does the vic, and I couldn't even articulate my words, cause I was pissed. Where does the, the, the guy that gets beaten up has to say something, you know? And he goes, yeah, where the victim apologized, it's true.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  He goes, but as right as you are, Johnny, you're also miserable. Um, if you're being honest, you know, I've been honest with you, so please be honest with me. Do you ever look at other families and look at other people and go, man, I wish my dad was like that? And I said, of course. I said, but that ship has sailed, you know, it's like defensive and, you know, I don't care anymore. If he dies, I don't, I'm not gonna visit him. And he goes, you know, as right as you are, you're miserable because of that. Um, you're the judge of everything. And so he goes, the reason why I'm telling you to say sorry is because I have faith that, and he used an analogy, when two countries go to war, they're both fighting for what they believe in is true. And what they believe is right. And during that time, countries are broken, people die, there is no peace, only chaos.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  He goes, your father, however, um, if this word and you believe pertains to you, also pertains to every human being, would you agree? And I was like reluctantly, like, yeah, that's true. I could see that. And he goes, um, your dad also probably had some stuff in him. And I'm not saying what he did was okay, but he kind of just humanized my dad. And he goes, if you say sorry, uh, it's like that country that just concedes. All right, fine, take the resources, do whatever you gotta do. Then they rebuild it and at least peace flows in and that's important, right? And so he goes, you, you know, if you do this, I think your dad would mend the relationship with you. So two hearts, I remember came up, two thoughts was,

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  why do I even care to mend the relationship with some, somebody like this? But the other side of it was also like, dang, this guy knows what he's talking about. He's dissecting me in a way. He's obviously super smart and articulate. He's thinking on a different level. If I don't listen to bro, I think I'm gonna struggle. Like he has like the antidote. And I just felt like I had to hear him out and I had to try.

• 1:11:12Chris Williamson?

  Sounds like a lot of respect.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I super respected him because of that. And, um, again, I was still shocked because I just met this guy. But I just, again, no one has ever articulated anything like that.

• 1:11:23Chris Williamson?

  Probably decoded you and threw a translator in the space of two hours.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  Literally, literally. And I'm like, that's crazy. And so, you know, he goes, I, I, I don't know you. He goes, but the Bible is about you and it's about Jesus and I know the Bible. So that's why I kind of know what you're going through. Cause I asked him, how do you even know these things? So anyways, fast forward, I end up meeting with my dad. And this is the thing I went viral for essentially, but I, you know, meet my dad, it's tense. Remember calling him and the first thing he says is, who is this? And I'm like, bro, I'm your son and you don't even know my voice. Cause we haven't seen each other for like, you know, 12, 13, 14 years. And I'm like, yeah, it's Johnny. And he goes, uh, I don't have any money. And I was like, I don't need your money, right?

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  And then I remember just like getting so mad at him, but I like remembered what the pastor was saying, like, maybe it's not him.

• 1:12:15Chris Williamson?

  Just after that two hour meeting?

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  This was, yeah, about a, a day after. I had to sit on it for a little bit, but it was like 24 hours after. And yeah, and then I, I remember just calling him and I'm like, hey dad, I wanna meet you somewhere. Um, let's meet up here noodle city in, in, on Sixth Street in Alhambra, Fod Restaurant. And he's like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. We'll meet like, what do you need? We'll meet. So I end up getting there and it's weird. I see my dad, he's aged now, he's like little chunkier, you know? And he's just like, I see him, I sit down in front of him and, like at first I feel frustration and tension. I remember it was just like this feeling of like, why am I here? I feel stupid.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  And if I say something and he doesn't respond the way that I want him to, I'll probably kill him for real. And so I'm like, all right, like, and I'm sitting there and he's like, what did you wanna talk to me about? And I was like, dad, I'm sorry. Like I remember just rushing it, right? I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry that I was a bad son. I'm sorry that I joined a gang and I ruined your American dream. Sorry that I couldn't help you. And I remember not, not even making eye contact with him, just like looking down. And I look up thinking my dad's gonna be like, yeah, you should be sorry. And he ends up looking at me and I see his eyes like he starts to like have tears, he starts crying. And he's like, you know, Johnny, I'm sorry, like, I waited a very long time for this, you know? But I didn't know how to approach it.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Like the reason why I didn't go to, uh, visit you in prison is because I felt like I created you in a way, you know? And he's, and I didn't know that, I didn't know that. I always saw my dad as like narcissistic, never could be wrong. He's never said, I love you and he's never said, I'm sorry. So I remember just crying too, it shocked me. And, um, yeah, it felt like that, that those years of pain just pretty much went away. And then I hugged him, which was crazy. So that's the first time he said, I love you and I'm sorry in the same sentence. And we just reconciled, you know? And then I was like, dang, pastor's got the wisdom. Like, like I, I was literally like, how does bro know this?

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  Like, and, and I think that for me was just enough to be like, okay, there must be a God. There must be like, how does, how is it that I went completely against what I thought and felt? And then experienced this, you know? Um, and then he started to train me, that's what surrendering is, you know? Surrendering is not, oh, let me see if it makes sense and then I'll let go. Um, faith is also not, oh, it needs to make sense and then I'll let go, right? And so he was explaining that to me. Um, and then over the years, he's nurtured me. My dad stopped drinking, my dad met that pastor too, received salvation as well. Um, he goes to church. Now, my dad was hardcore, like not even, he was agnostic, like he was just like, I don't even, you know?

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  He went from that to going, if, if this God changed my son Johnny to be this way, like there must be something, you know? And, um, he's, yeah, goes to church. It's funny, he used to always talk trash about Christians too. And all they want is your money, you know? And it's like crazy stuff, but looking back at it, I'm just very proud of him. Yeah.

• 1:15:27Chris Williamson?

  Jared, have you ever considered you might have a drinking problem?

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  I don't consider a lot, Chris.

• 1:15:31Chris Williamson?

  Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  But they're non-alcoholic.

• 1:15:36Chris Williamson?

  And that's not a problem?

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Sorry, man. I kept chugging, wait for the regret to creep in, never happened.

• 1:15:42Chris Williamson?

  Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye?

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  I didn't seem lazy to me.

• 1:15:47Chris Williamson?

  See, most people like Jared don't actually want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best any brews on the planet. So you can still have something cold and tasty, just without the usual trade-off. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you. Or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below, or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernd wisdom, using the code MODERNDWISDOM at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernd wisdom, a modern wisdom at checkout. Neobear terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times.

• 1:16:26Chris Williamson?

  Which part of you most resisted becoming peaceful, do you think?

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  Ooh, that's a good question. Um, I think the part of me that didn't fully die, and what I mean by that is, on both sides of the cross, right? Before Christianity and after Christianity, there was this thing that I would struggle with, with, like there's still me kind of having my hands on the wheel. Like I still am a master of my destiny in some way. Like, yeah, you can have faith, but you gotta get the, put the steps in and put the reps in. And it was like, again, I was very productive as a human being, right? And disciplined, so I think that part was like, if you let that go, yes, it seems like it's peaceful, but then it was scary because I think what I struggled with was control.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  Right? Like, so in order to have peace, I thought you have to have more control. Right? So I used to think I had anxiety and depression because those were my issues. What I learned and what I realized was I was having control issues. And what I mean is when things would go Johnny's way and I had a control on it, then I could feel like, oh, okay, I'm safe. Right? Even in prison, I had to control my program, do my own thing. But as soon as I didn't have control, then that would equate to danger and fear and then not peace. But the Christian mindset is you're not in control.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  The control comes from, from God. And you do, you plan boldly, surrender daily, as we say. So that was the thing that I think was like, the hardest thing was, okay, I gotta let go of my thoughts and my interpretations of my feelings and go against what the Bible is saying. Or I'm sorry, take up what the Bible is saying, which is you can't do anything. He has to do everything. That part scared me, but that was the thing they were saying was gonna give me peace. So that was the, the, the, the internal battle.

• 1:18:31Chris Williamson?

  You got the word, uh, passivity, being passive, sort of coming to mind of this fear of passivity. I think this is, I've had this conversation with a bunch of friends. One of the most valuable traits that I have in my entire life is agency, right? My ability to happen to life, not for life to happen to me.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:18:49Chris Williamson?

  And I can see surrender, relinquishing of control, faith, giving yourself over to a higher power.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Chris Williamson?

  If you're the sort of person that's self-made, self-powered, sovereign,

• 1:19:03Chris Williamson?

  blending these two worlds together is really hard, really hard. Who else is gonna make it happen?

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 1:19:09Chris Williamson?

  You tell me that I'm supposed to just like hope?

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:12Chris Williamson?

  Because the line, the line between.

• 1:19:17Chris Williamson?

  Handing off control to faith.

• 1:19:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:19:21Chris Williamson?

  And giving in, giving up effort.

• 1:19:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Very thin.

• 1:19:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, very, very, very, very thin.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Chris Williamson?

  And I can't remember who it is. There's a, there's a line that I love, which is, uh, God will steer the boat, but you still have to row.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:38Chris Williamson?

  Uh, and this idea of, okay, the direction might be something that's guided if you're a person of faith, but the effort still has to be there.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:19:45Chris Williamson?

  Right? Or else you end up just lying in your bed, wishing, believing, not achieving it.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I think that's, you know, I mentor a lot of people and they ask me the same thing, right? How do I surrender? You know, it's like, without just being careless and like lax and not motivated, right? Cause a lot of people are motivated, but then, you know, how I explain to people is, yeah, you have to plan boldly. The Bible even tells us like, who sits back and then plans to build, builds a house without planning, without a blueprint, right? So I think people get this misunderstanding of Christianity where it's like, you have to just let go of control completely. You don't do anything. It's like, no, you do everything with the heart of, hey, God, I hope the outcome is this. If it's aligned with what you want, you're gonna make it happen.

• 1:20:36Speaker 00

  And then it's just passing the glory to him. That's the understanding that made me let go of control in that way. Where I still work every day. I still, I'm, I'm up at four in the morning every single day. We did in these three days, like three separate podcasts. We're doing turn and burn. I mean, if I had that mindset of, yeah, I'm just gonna pray and then it's gonna come to me. That's not how it works, right? But the Bible, again, that's a misconception that people have where it's like, you gotta just do nothing, right? And no, you still have to work, but the outcome is in his hands. It's this idea of grace of going, hey, God, I'm gonna put all of my work in. If you wanna bless it and we are realigned with you, go ahead. If not, then give me the heart to realign.

• 1:21:19Chris Williamson?

  How do you distinguish between God speaking to you and guiding you? And your own inner monologue?

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:21:26Chris Williamson?

  Because for a very long time, your gut instinct led you to.

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:30Chris Williamson?

  Fire bullets out of a car.

• 1:21:32Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:21:32Chris Williamson?

  Or pop off on someone who didn't need it.

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, hundred percent.

• 1:21:35Chris Williamson?

  How do you learn what is, uh?

• 1:21:40Speaker 00

  God's.

• 1:21:41Chris Williamson?

  Impulsivity.

• 1:21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:42Chris Williamson?

  And a word that you should listen to.

• 1:21:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. So for me, it's not, again, I think there's a lot of emotionalism in religion nowadays, right? When it comes to the gospel, however, it's about the word. So what I've learned, I've read the Bible front to back 27 times. It's not to flex. What my pastor taught me was, you have to go to the word always. So when you seek something, it cannot come from inside of you. Because your standard can change, your feelings and emotions can change. Your voice is in your head. You can be locked in one day. It can change. It's very unstable. So your job is to go to the word or the servants who know the word, right? So if I'm doing anything, it's always, what does the word say about this? What can I actively search and seek for?

• 1:22:29Speaker 00

  And obviously, when you first start out, you don't know the word like that. So it's a lot of like, still you leading yourself. But what I learned was, if it doesn't match the word of God and doesn't point to God in some way, shape or form, it's not gonna be from God, no matter how good it feels. And I think that's the issue with a lot of Christians nowadays, is this, this idea of emotionalism, right? It's like, if I follow myself exactly, I thought I would die from my hood and that led me to shoot and be like, well, I did it for my homies. I'm protecting them. Like, we could spin it however we want, because it's subjective and relative. The absolute for me was the word. It went completely against my thoughts and my feelings. Literally says in the Bible, my thoughts are not your thoughts. My way is not your way. So get to know me, meaning the word.

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  When I started to read it five times, front to back, you know, cover to cover, I started to get this discernment. Oh, this is what God would want in this way. So when you move it this way, it's no longer you, Johnny, what do you think? I think the issue with a lot of people, in, in religion aside, is I am the judge. And again, I can be the judge if everything's going good. But what if I'm handicapped? What if I'm broken? What if I'm empty? Then what I produce will be probably those things as well, right? And so, um, yeah, I had to unlearn a lot of that and go, I can't really follow. You know, obviously we have practical thoughts. Am I hungry? Should I do this, right?

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  But I'm saying, when things come, it has to like, when an opportunity comes, what, the way I'm thinking is, what does scripture say about this? What would God think about this, right? At the very least, this, you're, you're realigning foundationally versus, oh yeah, I want that deal, cause I want it. And then trying to bend God's will to like, you know, do that, right? So, um, I think that's the difference between, you know, what I believe in versus someone going, well, God told me, okay, God told you, but in Hebrews 412, it says discernment comes from the word. So God told you, where's the scripture to back up what he told you? And that's the center line. It's a lot of people, God told you, put it in my heart. I downloaded, okay, great.

• 1:24:38Speaker 00

  What I'm looking for after that is what scripture is saying. And Holy Spirit, it's called the Spirit of Truth, will lead you back to the word, it says, right? So you can't just be like, Holy Spirit told me to buy a Ferrari, because, and it's like, sure, but where is the scripture to line this up, right? Um, and if they can back it up, and the scripture always points back to Jesus, John 539, that's how we know, oh, this is the voice of God. This is how God speaks to us.

• 1:25:05Chris Williamson?

  Did becoming Christian ever feel like becoming weak?

• 1:25:07Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:25:08Chris Williamson?

  For a good while, self-powered, agentic, I'm gonna make things happen. Then you get into prison, high T religion, right? Islam. And now you're, you know, within 24 hours, forgiving your dad, you're turning the other cheek, you're crying, he's crying.

• 1:25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Chris Williamson?

  This is not, there, there's a, a big disconnect between the person that you were and the person that you're becoming now.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I think it did, um, until I realized that my filter of like what weak and strong was, was distorted. I think it took a lot of, I mean, honestly, I know this sounds crazy, but like, when I was in the gang, like pulling the trigger and doing things like that was fairly easy for me. Because for me, it was like, bro, this is a chance for you to shine, right? Like, people are going to be enamored by you when you do that. They're gonna love you for doing this. Um, when you're Christian and you're like, turn the other cheek, it's like, okay, that's kind of performative in a lot of ways, at least for me. So I learned like, you know, it, it was a lot harder, uh, to be a Christian.

• 1:26:15Speaker 00

  You know, and I say this all the time. It's like, my gang had six other gangs that were against us. We were in a green light against the Mexicans. And, you know, no one liked us. We were EBK, stands for everybody killer. We weren't cool with anybody. How is it that I'm getting more, I'm, I'm getting more attacked now that I'm Christian than I was when I was in a gang? No one cared about what I said. No one made videos about me back then. So, you know, it just goes to show that, uh, it is, it's weak in, in a sense of sure, like bravado. High T, tall, you know, high T and testosterone, but at the end of the day, I think it's actually true. It takes a lot of strength to go, I wanna handle it the easy way.

• 1:26:59Speaker 00

  And the easy route, which is being violent, so that every, I'm, I'm, why would I talk to you? I just beat the dog crap out of you. Or, um, do I choose, you know, to go, they may be wrong, but let me like hear them out. Let me like be human and rationalize with people and have dialogue. I think that was very, very difficult, but once I learned it, it just became, it was like, uh, it was like strength, almost, yeah.

• 1:27:25Chris Williamson?

  On the list of things that you've done in your life, how high up the scary ranking does having that conversation with your dad go?

• 1:27:33Speaker 00

  Oh, that was, yeah, one of the, that was right next to going back to prison to preach. So they, they go neck and neck. So I would say it's like one and two. You know, it, it just switches depending on the mood.

• 1:27:44Chris Williamson?

  But that's my point, that, um.

• 1:27:48Chris Williamson?

  The bravado side of what does real strength look like?

• 1:27:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Chris Williamson?

  Does real fearless look like? It's strange. Like, how is it that somebody can run an ultra marathon a hundred miles, but not have a difficult conversation with their partner?

• 1:28:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:28:05Chris Williamson?

  You know, where are you applying your I do hard things muscle? You know, a lot of the time, people will be prepared to get up at four in the morning and do the ice plunge and go for the run and stick to their diet. But they can't tell their parents that something really got to them that happened last week.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Chris Williamson?

  Or they're scared of opening up to their friend about how they're getting on mentally. You go, okay, well, that's not, I'm not saying that the cold plunge in the four AM run is not tough. It is, but it's, it seems obvious that there's certain areas of your life where you're prepared to be tough. There's other areas where if we were to make a measurement, you're kind of weak.

• 1:28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. And I think just like to kind of tack on to that, too. I mean, being weak is something that I also had to unlearn, right? Where it's like weak to you, again, even that is also subjective in a lot of ways, right? So I had to learn like, yeah, being weak to me doesn't actually mean you're weak. It's just you not getting there and you gotta like unlearn a bunch of things. So, um, yeah, but I also think kind of to your point, people are, for me, at least it was also pride. I think that was the, it was, it was pride in, in that I can't show weakness by being vulnerable because no one ever taught me that being vulnerable was strength, right? So, um, yeah, and, and it was difficult for me.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  But I think after just seeing it, kind of like riding a bike, you do it a few times and it just becomes, you get the hang of it.

• 1:29:34Chris Williamson?

  Remember as well, suppression isn't the same thing as strength.

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:38Chris Williamson?

  Suppression is different to strength. And I think a lot of what people do, what they, they claim as strength is not. It's, it's subjugation, it's, uh, sublimation of whatever they're feeling into something else. But it's not suppression, it's not the same thing as strength.

• 1:29:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, agreed. Bars.

• 1:29:59Chris Williamson?

  What have you learned about forgiveness?

• 1:30:03Speaker 00

  I've learned that forgiveness is not usually for the other person, but for you. I think when you're forgiving somebody, a lot of people have this misconception, at least I did, where it's like, hey, I'm gonna forgive this person, um, because they deserve it. And I think that's why they struggle with forgiving, right? Because you're not gonna forgive somebody who doesn't deserve it. It's just natural. What I realized was forgiving somebody was like you taking out the shackles of yourself and just making the decision of going, I'm never gonna let these people like have that control or part, uh, influence on, on my emotion or on my life, you know?

• 1:30:44Speaker 00

  So I think the hardest thing to learn that I learned from the forgiveness, uh, was also the, the most beautiful thing is like, it's not for them, it's actually important for you to move forward. The second thing I also learned was it became easier when I was able to think outside of myself too, right? So it goes like double edged sword. Yes, you gotta think about yourself, of course, because you know, that matters. But you also have to take, you have to have the, I guess, the maturity to step out of yourself and go, where was I like this? So, you know, I'll give you an example, like when it came to my father and I saw that he was, he betrayed me. He promised things, you know, to us as kids.

• 1:31:27Speaker 00

  I remember he wasn't always bad, like there were certain times where he would try to like, said he was gonna take us to Universal or Disneyland and then didn't do it because he got drunk. And I felt that betrayal. The way that I was able to think was, okay, outside of people doing me dirty, how many times did I betray other people? And then how many times did I betray, okay, forget other people? How many times did I betray God? Right? I'm sitting there and I'm like, Jesus, I'm gonna do this and then I don't do it. You know, I'm gonna, I'll stop this for you and I, I don't stop. Then in that way, I was able to be like, whoa, the fact that my dad is still breathing, the fact that he, you know, and other people who did me dirty are, are still alive is proof that there's mercy there.

• 1:32:13Speaker 00

  Cause if God had to destroy, um, that person or reprimand that person, then I also would have to be reprimanded as well because I did the same thing and we're all the same. So I think for me, uh, it, it just made me, you know, yes, think about myself, but then also think outside of myself and go, man, God, like, how many times did I do you dirty? Many, many times and I continue to, it's just part of our broken nature. And yet you don't like send a lightning bolt and strike me down. You don't, you know, you're, you're very loving to me to still, you give me opportunities and you bless me. And so, yeah, it also had to take me to think outside of myself.

• 1:32:56Speaker 00

  And I think that's a very difficult thing that I see with a lot of people.

• 1:33:00Chris Williamson?

  Is it harder to forgive yourself or forgive your dad?

• 1:33:02Speaker 00

  Hmm. It was harder to forgive myself, I would say. Cause I've, like, my dad, after understanding that he had trauma that he had at nineteen years old, ran over somebody and took the guy's life. You know, his dad was an alcoholic and beat him, like, it was easier to go, okay, I get it. You know, I'm the same. We were literally two peas in a pod.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  What was difficult was there's times where I knew what I was doing was wrong and I still did it. I think that was very difficult.

• 1:33:33Chris Williamson?

  Consciousness.

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I would, I would be lying, you know? And, and the one thing I, I, I think I've seen across all convicts, you know, I've been to many prisons in, in my life and just even now visiting is nobody talks about their crimes. Like true people who really have done dirt, they don't talk about it. And I realize it's because it brings so much shame and guilt, right? Cause when you're doing something like that and you're boasting about it, I mean, you see like rappers and stuff, like that's the cool thing to do, that's what they, their persona. But I've seen real convicts who, they look completely great.

• 1:34:16Speaker 00

  Book smart, jailhouse lawyers and look like they would never hurt a fly. And you, you hear like they leak a little what they did and you're like, dude, you're a monster. You killed five people, like what the hell? It's crazy. So what I see in, in that is that there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of shame. And we don't, we just don't, you wouldn't want to rehash or talk about those types of things. So that being said, it's very difficult because the condemnation comes. You chose, you knew and you even had a choice.

• 1:34:49Chris Williamson?

  You feel culpable.

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And you're just like, so what? You still did it. And I think that's the most, uh, that was the toughest thing for me was to be like, okay, God forgave me, but like, I still remember my sins. I still remember what I did and it was very difficult, but thankfully.

• 1:35:09Chris Williamson?

  Forgiving yourself for not forgiving yourself yet is an interesting line.

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Chris Williamson?

  I, uh, I recently went and did a seven day meditation retreat. And one of the days we focused on forgiveness is very interesting. And the loop that they got you into, because it was all high powered Silicon Valley people, silent retreat. So, you know, we're locked in doing, you know, four, six, eight hour sits per day, you know, accumulated a lot of time, a lot of time in silence. And, um, everybody wants to do it right. Everyone wants to get it right. I want to make progress. I want to show, and the, okay, today is forgiveness. I'm gonna fucking forgive everybody, including myself. And then you don't. And the kind of judo throw Uno reverse card that they suggested was,

• 1:35:57Chris Williamson?

  you know, you can forgive yourself for not forgiving yourself yet.

• 1:35:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00Chris Williamson?

  And this tiny little gesture of, all right, all right, I, I guess I work hard and I really want to do this thing and I haven't yet. And, okay, well, that's, I, I really appreciate you trying so much.

• 1:36:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Chris Williamson?

  And there's just a little bit of release.

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Chris Williamson?

  That's there. I wrote this thing down. I wanted to tell you, um, one of my notes from my journal while I was away. It was the forgiveness day. It says, forgiveness is choosing to no longer suffer the things that you cannot change. It is simply to give up on the hope of changing the past. It's awfully useless to cling to the idea of altering history. We forgive to enlighten ourselves.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:37Chris Williamson?

  I thought that was really nice. That idea, it's, it's useless to cling to the idea of altering history. You can't do it and it's just giving up on the hope of changing the past.

• 1:36:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Chris Williamson?

  When you see it like that, it becomes, maybe that's a bit of a, um, productivity bro, uh, trick to kind of make it functional. But I think if you get in, you go, okay, this thing happened that I did or somebody else did or someone did to me or I did to someone else and I can't change it.

• 1:37:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:03Chris Williamson?

  What am I carrying? Like, what am I carrying here? Have I learned from it? Have I prostrated myself enough? Have I whipped myself into submission sufficiently?

• 1:37:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:37:11Chris Williamson?

  Okay, well, maybe I can give myself a little bit of room. And if I can't, maybe I can give myself a little bit of room about not giving myself a little bit of room.

• 1:37:18Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 1:37:19Chris Williamson?

  And that's the gateway drug to start it to spiral.

• 1:37:22Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. Yeah, that's deep. That's super deep. What, what do you do if someone comes? So for me, I always like, there's all this information out there, but there's very little application, right? So like practically speaking, if someone is like, you know, they come to you, Chris, or they come to me, you know? What would you say to someone who's like, hey, I wanna forgive myself? I don't know how. And then let's say we say those things to them, right? It's like, oh, great, good information, but like what, how do I now apply that to myself? Like you say, let go. People are always doing that with Christianity. They're saying have faith, have, okay, but how? How do you, how do I have faith? Teach me how, like, how would you answer that?

• 1:38:03Chris Williamson?

  I mean, making anything esoteric or conceptual practical is, is hard.

• 1:38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:10Chris Williamson?

  I think at least something that's worked for me is inviting the parts of me that I'm not so proud of or that I wish I didn't have or thoughts from the past, inviting them in. And this is the Jhana practice, the meditation that I followed for a good while and still do now. It sees you as different parts, different bits of you. Oh, there's that bit of me that is frustrated that things aren't going well during this meditation sit.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:38Chris Williamson?

  And I see it and I think, huh, I know that that's annoying, but also I really appreciate that part of me that wants to do well. Like, look at how hard he's working.

• 1:38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:47Chris Williamson?

  Okay, you come here.

• 1:38:48Speaker 00

  Sure, sure.

• 1:38:49Chris Williamson?

  You bring these parts of you in.

• 1:38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Chris Williamson?

  And I think that a lot of. Even great mindfulness practices, even go to the gym, like you're almost pushing away these parts. You're not bringing them into you. Here's a bit of me that I don't feel too good about.

• 1:39:03Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:39:03Chris Williamson?

  And if I get enough endorphins, it kind of sends him over the far side of the room. It staves him off for a little while.

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 1:39:09Chris Williamson?

  As opposed to being like, huh, you're here for a reason.

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:12Chris Williamson?

  I'm really glad that you're here and hey, you're like a, you know, I had this vision in my mind. It goes to show just how fucking twenty twenty six brain I am. But I had this vision in my mind that there's, there was this part of me that wanted to do things really well. That wanted to work incredibly hard, that wants to get it right, wants to be seen and, and, and follow the rules and, and do stuff. And he's like a Roomba, you know, one of those robot vacuums.

• 1:39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:35Chris Williamson?

  But he's just overly enthusiastic and he's going around fucking like, he gets stuck in corners, bouncing up against stuff. He's cleaning an area he's already cleaned twenty times before. And I was like, ah, he's trying so hard. I really, really appreciate how hard he's trying. Come here, like you can come in and be a part of that. So I think offering, offering a little bit of gratitude.

• 1:39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:57Chris Williamson?

  To that part of you, thank you for being here. I see that you're trying hard. I don't need you right now, but I appreciate that you're here anyway and come in. And that to me, a completely non-theological, but at least practically it's, it's worked a bit.

• 1:40:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. So like acknowledgement, essentially acknowledging and instead of avoiding and a hundred percent.

• 1:40:16Chris Williamson?

  Thank you for being here.

• 1:40:17Speaker 00

  Yep, yep.

• 1:40:18Chris Williamson?

  Bring it in.

• 1:40:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Gratitude, I always say like affects the attitude and it's true. Right. I think in Christianity, it's the same. A lot of people say they're Christian, but then like I, when I look at them, they're not grateful for a lot of things. And it's like unfortunate. And I can speak on that space because I'm in that space. It's like, yeah, I, I, I'm grateful when I'm blessed, you know, they kind of transactionalize these things, right? Well, I prayed to God and I pushed F three and then vending machine, you know, underneath the blessing should come. So I think it's important to definitely religious, religion aside, Christianity aside, to be like thankful. And I think the way that helps me be thankful, similar to what you're saying is to think about the things as like objectively.

• 1:41:02Speaker 00

  Okay, there's a reason why this is here and it's easier for us being Christian, I think only because we can go, God could snap his fingers and remove these things. Why is he allowing this to stay here? If he's almighty and all powerful.

• 1:41:15Chris Williamson?

  Sense of purpose.

• 1:41:15Speaker 00

  Yes. It's like he's almighty, he's all powerful. What is the purpose behind this, right? What is his will? And then you kind of feel the piece of like, huh, there's a lesson. The way, what I say is there's either a lesson or a blessing. He's either going to teach us something, which all is a blessing at the end of the day, because you're going to gain those things. And, and yeah, it just helps in, in so many ways, you know, it's difficult. I guess where I, where I see it is when someone doesn't believe, then it's harder to articulate that aspect of it.

• 1:41:45Chris Williamson?

  Cause. Because you're the only person who's got their hand on the rudder.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:41:48Chris Williamson?

  You're the only one that's steering.

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:41:51Chris Williamson?

  Why was it so scary going back into prisons to?

• 1:41:54Speaker 00

  Hmm. I think it was the pride, uh, just how they would see me. And especially because that first prison was like my alma mater. It was the one I was at. Yeah. So going back to the spot that I was at where everyone knows.

• 1:42:09Chris Williamson?

  How long was?

• 1:42:10Speaker 00

  Uh, the stretch was only, I was out three year, two years, two and a half years.

• 1:42:16Chris Williamson?

  So still tons of people in there that would have known you, most of them?

• 1:42:19Speaker 00

  Most of them. That's how it was. It's like a homecoming, a welcoming party, right?

• 1:42:23Chris Williamson?

  What was that like? Driving back the riding?

• 1:42:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I straight up had a panic attack. So I remember, um, you know, my pastor's like, hey Johnny, you went through this crazy stuff in life. He showed me Revelation twelve, eleven. He said, you know, uh, we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony, meaning you can help people overcome with Jesus and, or your testimony. And I'm like, dang, I gotta talk about my story like, oh my gosh, like how detailed do I have to be? Like some of this stuff is cold cases and you know what, oh, you know, like what am I doing here, right? Am I going to end up back in prison? And so I tried to, because up until then, he's led me just changed my life completely. You know, transformed me a lot. And so, um, yeah, I remember he goes, we got a contract with this prison.

• 1:43:12Speaker 00

  And it was the prison that I was at and I was like, oh my gosh, like I'll go to any other prison except for that one. But at that time, this was like, you know, uh, just very, like the prisons were not allowing volunteers to really come in. It was very difficult, right? But we, we got it and it just so happened to be that prison and only that prison. So I, I, you know, I say okay to pastor, but as the days, and this is a week before, I get to the day of and full on panic attack. Oh, the homies are in there. One of my homies is still like my cellmate's still in there, like they, they've seen me crack off riots. And now I'm in here like, Jesus can help you too. It's like, I feel fraudulent.

• 1:43:58Speaker 00

  And I was just like, nah. And then I started getting mad, like I realized when I get scared, I get angry, right? When I get sad, I get angry. It always, it's just this thing of like anger at the end of it. So I just remember like blowing up pastor like, and then he wasn't picking up. And I'm like, okay, me being a man of my word is very big to me. I told him, yes, I'm, I'm panicking. All right, let me try this prayer thing, you know, I'll pray and I'm driving to the prisons and I'm with my friend. He's, he's a minister at this time. He's a pastor now, but it was a minister. And he's like, Johnny, it's okay, you know, again, he's never lived that life, never, you know, and he's, I'm like, don't say nothing, bro. Like you don't understand. I'm like popping off on him.

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  We get there and I see the COs and I'm like, I turn me back.

• 1:44:44Chris Williamson?

  Did they know that it was you that was coming?

• 1:44:46Speaker 00

  Of course, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, because you have to, you know, you have to submit your information before that. And I see them and then I'm just like, bro, we don't even make it to the gate, bro. I, I'm like, turn around and then he's just like, what? Are you serious? We drove like almost two hours and I turned the F around like cussing. And then he's like, oh, and he calls and he's blowing up pastor and then he calls pastor's wife and pastor's wife is with pastor, gives him the phone. And he's like, pastor, you know, Johnny's not listening and he's just pissed and I'm like, I don't get what F, you know? And I, I pick up the phone and he's like, can I talk to Johnny? And picks up the phone and he goes, Johnny, what's going on? I said, pastor, uh, I don't want to do this.

• 1:45:29Speaker 00

  If I have to leave religion and I, I will denounce Christianity. If you're making me do this, this is too much of a cross for me to bear. It's too much. And pastor goes, he just laughs and I'm like, what the hell? And he goes, you know what's funny? And I'm, and I enraged at this point, infuriated. What's funny? Like, what are you talking about? You're not the one going in, you know, you don't have this compounded trauma. And he goes, think back to when you did drugs. Think back to when you robbed people. Did you ever have a thought of like, I shouldn't be doing this? I should never do this. What the hell is wrong with me? And I thought about it and I was like, no. He's like, would you get this angry if like you, you know, would do drugs?

• 1:46:14Speaker 00

  He'd be probably very happy, right? Yeah. He goes, don't you think it's kind of funny that now that you're trying to do the work of God? You're trying to go there and actually potentially help people. All of a sudden you're getting attacked this way. And I think through that, he taught me the lesson of spiritual warfare. He's like, when you're trying to do good, there's always evil in there, right? It says in Romans seven, he said, verse eighteen, nineteen. And he's like, so you Johnny, like, I think the enemy is threatened by what you're going to do. I think, you know, if you just walk and take a step, I think it'll, you, you, again, just like with your father, when you're having a panic attack with him and you were stressed out and you weren't sure.

• 1:46:59Speaker 00

  I think, you know, you can experience that, right? And this is a good chance and a good opportunity for you to walk by faith, because it doesn't make sense. Yeah. Why would I be so insensitive? That's what your thoughts are telling you, but I want you to learn how to experience God, how to grow with God and how to like walk forward and break this, you know? And it made, again, it made sense and I'm like, but it didn't make it easier, right? And I, being honest, I'm like, I, yeah, I'm not going to do that. But him saying that, it took me another week of processing it, of going, he's wrong, but he's right, but it is like this internal struggle, right?

• 1:47:37Chris Williamson?

  So you didn't go in the first time?

• 1:47:38Speaker 00

  I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. And so, yeah, and I was waiting for him to like, almost waiting for him to pop off on me. So I can utilize that as an excuse to leave. Cause I was a runner too, in that way where I'm like, I'm not going to face this, I'm out. This Christian life stuff is too hard for me, you know? Fast forward a week.

• 1:47:56Chris Williamson?

  Fascinating saying that as someone that was inside for thirteen years.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Chris Williamson?

  Christianity is too hard prison for a decade and a half.

• 1:48:02Speaker 00

  Exactly. Crazy. But, um, he, you know, after processing what he said.

• 1:48:09Speaker 00

  I was truly able to see like, man, he's right. Like, as much as I'm being mad and frustrated and being immature, like, he is right. So I went back and I did talk to him again. And he's like, Johnny, you don't have to go. I just want you to understand, like, I just, I'm only challenging you up. Cause I'm calling you up, right? And it's kind of like, again, like working out. You know, you, you can't just be lifting five pounds, like, you gotta grow, bro. And he's like, and I, it's because I love you. I care about you. And so I'm like, ah, okay, you know, I'll try again. Same thing happened, driving over there, panic attack.

• 1:48:48Speaker 00

  But this time, I just remembered his voice, like, just listening to what he was saying and repeating it in my head, like, the enemy wants to do something and, you know, you don't see it, but when was he ever wrong? Like, you listen to this dude and things changed. Your life is changing. You haven't been back to prison. And that's what also flipped my mindset was like, dude, I'm two years and a half out of prison. Like, the homie didn't even make it six months, the Muslim guy. Whoa, and then it started to just register to me and I'm like, huh, okay. And it gave me a little bit of that boost of confidence, I guess, that I needed. And then I get in there and you get there and I see, we're walking towards the yard and it's my homie who's doing life without parole.

• 1:49:34Speaker 00

  What's up? He says my name, which is my AKA. He doesn't call me Johnny, he says my, you know, street name. What's up, bro? And I'm like, oh my God. And I'm like, immediately like embarrassed as hell, you know? And then the guy next to me, he's like, again, not living that lifestyle. He's like, why did he call you like ill, like, like mentally ill, right? And he's like, why did he call you? I was like, long story, you know, that's what they call me. And he's like, he didn't understand it. So we're just, it was just weird, right? I'm walking through, I meet another dude. He's like, what's up, homie? Eh, you made it out, like, what are you doing? And he's seen the visitor badge and he's like, you're doing like, where, let me sign up. And he was, it was just like this little bit of like being cool. And I'm like, okay, but I'm making excuses still.

• 1:50:18Speaker 00

  Those are the homies, they're gonna support me, whatever. I get in here and it's random people in that class. I don't know any of these people, they're just random, you know, level two, level four, level three people. And, you know, when they walk in, they just, I like stick out like a sore thumb. Cause this dude's like square, no tattoos, spotless, you know? Korean guy, broken English, you know? And then there's me, just like blasted like this and they're just like, come up to me and I'm like, hey, guys, how you doing? You know, um, and I'm trying to speak proper. And then, um, I'm like, can I share my testimony with you guys? And they're like, yeah, for sure. Um, and I grew up here and I just tell the whole story, like I told you, more in detail, of course.

• 1:51:02Speaker 00

  And they just kind of get blown away, like, hey, that emptiness that I felt, you know, um, at the end of it, they come up to me and they're like shaking my hand. Not only are they shaking my hand, they're telling, they're, they're being vulnerable. Yo, bro, I felt that emptiness last night when you said one thought turns into ten, like, I was literally doing that, bro. I was about to kill myself and I don't know, maybe it's God or like, I, does God, God really work for you? Like, they're like asking me these things. And so, you know, um, we end up leaving, there's, there's, uh, seventy five people in that class. We end up leaving, um, I remember going to the, the car and I just break down.

• 1:51:46Speaker 00

  I think that's the first time I started really bawling, like, aside from my dad, where I'm like, oh my gosh, again, pastor's right. Like, how is it that, like, I would have never experienced that? It would have never lit up like a fire in me. It wouldn't, it was almost like I found a purpose in some way, right? Up until that point, it was like, yeah, I'm broken and God's great, but like, what, where do we go from here? You know? And it was like, whoa, I guess this is prison ministry. Like, I, it makes sense. I went through all of this, God's not gonna not use it, he's gonna utilize it. And, um, from then on, I just continued to go to the prisons and then I would see people change. We would have Muslims, we would have Buddhists in our class, we'd have atheists, Gnostic, whoever.

• 1:52:30Speaker 00

  They would come and then they would be changed. And, and even if they didn't agree, someone would be like, okay, we don't know about all this God stuff, but that emptiness that you're talking about, I felt that anxiety, that depression, I felt. How do you get over it, over that? Okay, I'll try to distrust my thoughts, maybe not follow myself so much. And let's see how that works. And they changed, it was beautiful, bro.

• 1:52:51Chris Williamson?

  What do you think twelve year old Johnny would think if he could see you now?

• 1:52:55Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, bro, that's a great question. Um,

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  I think I wouldn't, if the twelve year old me wouldn't obviously believe and would probably just be like, whoa, you're famous. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's it, like, whoa, you're famous, dude, awesome.

• 1:53:16Chris Williamson?

  Sick tattoos, nice YouTube channel.

• 1:53:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, dope YouTube, can I get on? You know, like, um, but truthfully too, also, um, I, I don't think I, I would understand. I think at that time, it wasn't that I was unreachable, but I just think that my mind was so set on like looking up to somebody. Um, yeah, if I had someone like me who understood at that moment, I wouldn't end up the way I was for sure. But, um, if, I, I didn't even know that, like, I didn't know that people like this existed. I was just very like, gang members, they're the, they're the top dogs, you have to be that. And so I, I think I probably would have thought I was lame, like in a way, like, he's cool, he's famous.

• 1:54:01Speaker 00

  But as soon as you say the Christian stuff, oh, cool, bro. Like, it's just, I think that's, if I'm being honest.

• 1:54:07Chris Williamson?

  You're not aggressive enough, you're not hard enough.

• 1:54:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And then, um, you know, I, I think I had to go through all of that to recognize that. You know, I've seen so many people that are like me, super peaceful and people come up to me, bro, like, you really, were you locked up? Really, you did that? Like, you don't even have that, those tendencies. But I don't think they understand like the chaos I've been through, that's why. And I think at a point, you do get to this point where you just want like serenity and you just want like happiness and peace. So you do end up just being chill.

• 1:54:42Chris Williamson?

  You can't enjoy any of it if you don't have peace, dude.

• 1:54:44Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 1:54:44Chris Williamson?

  There is no, and I'm fortunate enough to have been around, you know, some of the richest, most well-known, high status people on the planet.

• 1:54:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:54Chris Williamson?

  It, there is no amount of socioeconomic or follower count, escape velocity that can outstrip an unpeaceful life. Like, if you go to bed on a night time and you don't have peace, and that's not to say that you are supposed to have peace for the entirety of your life. Like shit's gonna happen, it's very good if you can fucking grip the bar, rip it off the floor, fix the problem, all that stuff.

• 1:55:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:15Chris Williamson?

  But there is no out accelerating an unpeaceful life, especially a chronic unpeaceful life. So like, what are you, what is all of this for? What is all of this for? If you

• 1:55:29Chris Williamson?

  achieve everything that you want and you can't lay your head on a pillow and not be worrying about like, what is that? The, the, the price that you are paying is not worth what you're getting in return.

• 1:55:39Speaker 00

  So true, so true. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the one thing that changed my life was to see my mom, right? I think that's what kind of opened the door to me even wanting to talk with my pastor is she was still with my dad, who was drunk beating her, not as much, it kind of, the beatings kind of got better, but she's still here and there. And then having two kids, not just me, but my brother doing time too. And then me at this time making forty, fifty K, not saved, you know, selling drugs, having forty five on my waist, man. Like, for her to still be like, I'm happy, I, like, I couldn't understand it.

• 1:56:24Speaker 00

  Like, I just looked at my mom and I was like, I know, and I've seen her have the thousand yard stare and be the broken person and have that emptiness to be like, no, God is good. And she would say crazy things, bro. She'd be like, your father is the world's best husband. And I was like, oh, Johnny, you're gonna be a gospel preacher one day and the world's best gospel preacher. She like kept using this world's best stuff, right? And I'm like, and mom, you're schizophrenic, you know, like.

• 1:56:53Chris Williamson?

  And we're taking you off to a facility.

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, literally, right? You need the stray jacket, but it's like, I didn't understand it. But what I can't deny was that when she said it, the conviction she had, the confidence and the peace. And I'm like, dang, and then it kind of turned out that way. My dad is so much better, it's so weird, bro. Asians, they're just not like affectionate. So like, there's times where I'll go visit them and just pop up, like surprise them. And I'll see my dad and my mom cuddling on the couch, like watching TV and I'm like, ew. What the heck?

• 1:57:27Chris Williamson?

  I think that's an Asian thing, I think that's an ever, everyone's got like a visceral, like, fuck, put it away.

• 1:57:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll hold hands and then when my dad sees me, like throws her hand on the side and I'm just like, pops, I caught you slipping, pop.

• 1:57:38Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's just. Promise I'm not gay, I promise I'm not.

• 1:57:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just, it's weird to, to see that dynamic and it's all, it all stemmed from my mom's faith and her peace and her belief system, which my brother saved now, it's, it's kind of wild.

• 1:57:52Chris Williamson?

  So your mom is kind of the savior at the top of the, the avalanche.

• 1:57:55Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. It was her solo dolo, Asian, you know, in a traditionally Buddhist household to be like, yeah, I'm gonna introduce some peace and some Jesus. And I'm like, you're crazy to like, now we're all crazy, I guess, you know, it's like, but it's just, it was just, it's beautiful. You know, what peace can do to your point, how you, like, what I say is like, the way you carry yourself is like a sermon, right? Like, I could preach all day, a bomb sermon and then be like doing drugs at night. It's just, the actions don't match, right? And so I guess I just want to encourage people to understand that, like, the way you carry yourself is very important. You can talk about peace all day and talk about grinding and, you know, productivity and things like that.

• 1:58:38Speaker 00

  But if, if a person, I guess what I'm always looking for is like, can I represent and reflect Jesus and peace and love? Because what, what's the point? To your point, what's the point of life if you can't really have people, inspire people, help people and all that? Like, what, I'm, I'm a Christian, this is my story, it's great, like, no, I want to be able to inspire and help others too.

• 1:59:01Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Johnny, you're the best, dude.

• 1:59:03Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:59:04Chris Williamson?

  You're absolutely real.

• 1:59:04Speaker 00

  Appreciate you, bro.

• 1:59:06Chris Williamson?

  Really fantastic. Why should people go? I know you've got so much stuff going on, why should people go to check out more of your stuff?

• 1:59:11Speaker 00

  Um, so we have an app on the app store, it's called Korathar Daily. It's my ten years of teachings, my secret notes, everything, um, placed into that. It's available on any app store, Play Store, it's free. And yeah, it, it had, it starts with a devotional. Um, and then you guys can find me on all social media platforms, Johnny Chang Live, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. And I stream live where I do these Q and As. A lot of people come up, why does God allow babies to die? And these hard questions, I like answering them, so you guys can find me there too.

• 1:59:42Chris Williamson?

  Appreciate you, man. Until next time.

• 1:59:43Speaker 00

  Thank you, good sir.

• 1:59:44Chris Williamson?

  Goodbye, everyone.

• 1:59:45Speaker 00

  All righty.

• 1:59:45Chris Williamson?

  Dude.

• 1:59:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:49Chris Williamson?

  Thank you, bro.