Shibuya’s Rethinking Production Studios with pplpleasr, Maciej Kuciara & Jacky | Alpha Leak

Shibuya is not your typical Hollywood production studio. The storytelling side of things is built entirely using web3. And the inspiring team behind it is none other than wildly successful NFT artist pplpleasr, renowned concept designer/artist Maciej Kuciara, and experienced developer Jacky Wang. Decentralized storytelling is a web3 creative model for crowdfunding production via NFTs/tokens. Choose-your-own-adventure storytelling, dynamic credits, character development all done using the power of web3. Hear more of Shibuya’s other grandiose ideas and so much more in the episode! ------ 📣 ZERION | Trade Across 7 Networks and 500+ protocols https://bankless.cc/Zerion ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 👀 POLYGON | LAYER 2 DEFI https://bankless.cc/Polygon ❎ ACROSS | BRIDGE TO LAYER 2 https://bankless.cc/Across 🦊 METAMASK | THE CRYPTO WALLET https://bankless.cc/metamask 💳 LEDGER | THE CRYPTO LIFE CARD https://bankless.cc/Ledger 🧙‍♂️ ALCHEMIX | SELF REPAYING LOANS https://bankless.cc/Alchemix 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 5:00 What is Shibuya 9:50 Shibuya’s Product Market Fit 15:05 Balancing Community Power Dynamics 18:02 Shibuya’s Experiments 25:15 Web3 Talent Coordination 28:30 Story Format 31:05 Community Decisions 33:05 Voting Fatigue & Power 36:02 Dev Challenges & Tokenomics 39:39 IP 43:41 Shibuya’s Spectrum of Engagement 46:48 Shibuya’s Grandiose Ideas 53:11 Key Ingredients to Success ------ Resources: Shibuya’s Website: https://www.shibuya.xyz/ Shibuya’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/shibuyaxyz pplpleasr: https://twitter.com/pplpleasr1 Maciej Kuciara: https://www.instagram.com/maciejkuciara/ Jacky: https://www.instagram.com/jackywangadventures ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06David Hoffman?

  Welcome Bankless Nation to this edition of AlphaLeak, formerly known as Meet the Nation, but we are now calling it AlphaLeak because it's just a hotter name. Today, we are talking about Shibuya. Shibuya is a brand-new content platform out of the hands of people-pleaser, the famous NFT artist behind the X times Y equals K NFT from Uniswap V3, and many, many, many more NFTs beyond that. We've also brought along two of her co-founders of Shibuya, Mashay and Jackie. And I get them to tell the story of Shibuya itself. And Shibuya is a kind of a content production studio, but instead of a director, instead, there's a DAO. And that is where this story gets really, really interesting. Emily and her fellow co-founders are devs and artists,

• 0:50David Hoffman?

  and they have been charged with the creation of this story. But who determines the outcome of the story, or where this story goes, is up to the discretion of the DAO members, of the token holders who stake and make the producers actually have, express the choices that the community wants. And so this is decentralized storytelling. This is storytelling by the community, and then the producers actually tell the story. And so if you want to check this out while we're going through the show, you can go to the website. It's shibuuya.xyz. That's S-H-I-B-U-Y-A dot X Y Z. You can go watch the first chapter of this story, and then you can stay tuned to watch the remaining chapters of the story

• 1:32David Hoffman?

  after token holders determine what the story actually is. This is like a kind of a choose-your-own-adventure-type story, but built for the Web3 metaverse world. And we've talked about this concept before on Bankless, where previously you would have the artists onstage producing creativity, producing music, producing art, and then it being consumed by the community. But with the power of tokens, tokens gives the community voice and the ability to actually give back, reverberate their interest back to the artists and say, "Hey, we liked this, but less so of this. So you should go in that direction." And this back and forth content creation, this back and forth creativity between artists and

• 2:15David Hoffman?

  community is, I think, going to be a very fundamental part of Web3, a fundamental part of the Metaverse, and it's platforms like Shibuya that are enabling this to come into the future. So we're going to go and talk to People Pleaser and Mache and Jackie from Shibuya. But if you are interested, you can definitely go to that website. Again, it's S H I B U Y A dot X Y Z. And then the Twitter account is S H I B U Y A X Y Z, without the dot, on Twitter. So you guys can go follow those directly there as well. There will be a link in the show notes, so you can just go click that if that makes things easier for you. So let's go ahead and get right into the conversation. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible.

• 2:57David Hoffman?

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• 3:39David Hoffman?

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• 4:23David Hoffman?

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• 5:06David Hoffman?

  including Polygon Hermes, Midan, Nightfall, and Zero, all with different design choices in order to be optimized for all possible crypto use cases. If you're a developer who wants to build on the Polygon ecosystem, go to the link in the show notes to check out their fantastic documentation. And if you're a user who just wants to experience fast and cheap DeFi, you can bridge over your ETH or other tokens and start playing around with any of the thousands of applications that are available on Polygon. Welcome, Bankless Nation, to this edition of AlphaLeak, where we are going to explore Shibuya. And so with us on today's episode, we have three of the co-founders, three of the five co-founders of Shibuya. You guys probably recognize People Pleaser. She's the person behind the X times Y equals K NFT that rocketed her into fame.

• 5:50David Hoffman?

  And she also has brought along her two other co-founders. We have Masha and Jackie from the Shibuya project. Guys, welcome to AlphaLeak. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Thanks for having us.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us.

• 6:03David Hoffman?

  Thank you. So, People Pleaser, I think people recognize you the most. So I'm going to start with you. Can you just give us the high-level pitch of what Shibuya is? What are we going to be talking about today?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Sure, and I think for the rest of the podcast, we can just not even acknowledge the existence of our other two guests. Just thanks.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  No, I mean, yeah, like, so we're building this new thing that we're calling Shibuya. It's named after Shibuya Crossing and, you know, what it really is is sort of like a decentralized video platform. But we hope to also expand to other media forms outside of video. And I think probably the easiest way to explain it is if we have sort of like a first animated web series that we're launching on Shibuya. It's called White Rabbit and it's kind of just taking the sort of pick your own path. Like, style of storytelling and bringing it to web three. And so, for example, our first chapter that we're calling it.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  You see, you watch this little animation and then at the end of the chapter, our main character comes in front of two doors and then behind each door is an alternate ending to the chapter. And to watch each alternate ending, you have to mint what we're calling these ERC 1155 NFTs that we're calling Producer Passes. And so when you mint one, you can then use that Producer Pass to stake it in the, you know, the outcome that you want to see. So, you know, you pick a door and then you can watch the ending. And then, you know, then we give sort of like a grace period for everybody to kind of give everybody a chance to stake their Producer Passes. And then, you know, when that voting period ends, then whatever is the majority vote,

• 7:51Speaker 01

  which already happened for our first chapter, would be sort of dictate the plot going forward. And so in this way, everybody who has a Producer Pass and has also staked it feels like, you know, they have a part in sort of the development and the storytelling of this web series that's currently being built. And at the same time, they also, you know, get to keep that NFT as like a paper trail of their like participation in the project. And also in Return are rewarded the valueless governance tokens that we're calling White Rabbit tokens. And currently, you know, they can be using these tokens to do things like

• 8:32Speaker 01

  vote on, you know, the main character's name in the show, or also like we are right right now, we have a leaderboard as well and sort of what we're calling dynamic credits at the end. So, you know, when like the credits roll and it's like artists, executive producers, producers, and it's all based on people's token holdings, basically. And there's also a leaderboard on our site. So you can see who kind of like are our top producers and so forth. And so that's kind of like a very high level explanation. We're really what we're trying to do here is just to sort of change the way that the stagnant state of the NFT market is like sort of like stuck at these

• 9:17Speaker 01

  PFP projects and we're just kind of coming in and already building something and we already have content to show. Be like, this is what you're getting into and this is what you're supporting instead of like doing a drop a drop first and then promising some kind of like roadmaps later, you know. And also just to kind of change the way that people are thinking about how utilities actually used in NFTs beyond it just being a JPEG or some kind of membership or, you know, and also trying to decentralize and democratize the way that independent film projects could be funded.

• 9:49David Hoffman?

  So I'm reminded of these choose your own adventure books back when I was a child where you you would come to the end of a chapter and there were some choices and you could pick which page you would flip to based off what choices you wanted wanted to go. And then the other thing that this reminded me of is Twitch Plays Pokémon, where you have like so many people having inputs into the choices that the main character makes. And so I think I'll throw it to Masha. Why do you think that this is going to be exciting? Like, why do you think this is a product market fit? What do you think is really going to get the creative juices going on this project?

• 10:26Speaker 03

  It's, well, first of all, in terms of like a long-form filmmaking, this is something that rarely ever happens. Like, usually, uh, when it comes to long-form filmmaking, there's a, there's a production that's set up. It takes quite a bit of time to find a team, to get, get things built. Uh, you have obviously passionate artists and directors who do short films all the time, but that's like very rare and just takes out your soul, basically. I, I can tell that from experience, working on a couple of like my own short films, where it's, it's, it's really difficult to make them and combine that with your like life choices in general.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Also, a lot of us are video game enthusiasts as well. Like, you know, there's, the gaming industry is, is huge. It's actually bigger than the film industry. That tells you that people like to play the characters or, or have their own choices and see where the stories or the gameplay will develop. So, I think it was a no-brainer, like, as you mentioned, those old books where you choose your own path and you, you choose your own way of how you want to develop the story. That's been always exciting. And, uh, there maybe have been only a handful examples where, where that kind of type of content has been used in, in animation or film.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  So, we, we felt like, you know, it would be very interesting to try this. But also, just because the way Web 3 works in general and the technology itself allows you to do so many different things on so many different levels. It almost became for us like, uh, like a playground where it's like, how can we make, uh, an interesting storytelling, an interesting story overall, but get the community involved in how this story develops or, and where it goes? And from that point, you know, we kind of started with,

• 12:29Speaker 03

  uh, choose your own path, like you have two different doors. Each of them lead to a completely different storyline. Obviously, the one that people choose is gonna be the one that, that's going to develop. So that gets community involved. But from there, it was just like... We sat down and started thinking like, what else can be done? Okay, you can vote for the character name. And then just opens up, okay, when we have that utility, there is so much more that can be done that has never been done before. And I think that's the exciting part in this project specifically in White Rabbit, where it's like, yeah, we can kind of like do whatever we want and get the whole community engaged

• 13:11Speaker 03

  without asking for some producers, studios, and, you know, high-level executives that are basically funding the project to see if our idea jives with where the studio wants to go. Instead, it's just like, it becomes like a grassroots film project where it's just creatives in the community, and we kind of decide what it's going to be. And I don't think that has ever been tried before. I might be mistaken, obviously, there are so many projects out there. It's very difficult to track, the whole internet, obviously.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  But I haven't seen anything on like a really high creative level with high-end animation where that kind of plays out. And that's probably the most exciting part about this project specifically, but just also like the utility of itself. The leaderboard credits, you know, credits is something that is very easy to compile if you get people involved in the project. But this is like a dynamic credit too, which is also exciting because now that also gives us an ability to play with different things, play with like different ideas. Okay, depending on the level you are, whether you're like executive producer, or a producer, or associate producer.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  Fun fact, actually, last place is a production assistant.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Just as a funny thing we found. It can give you like a different experiences throughout as well. So there's just a lot of creative things, not only just the level of tech, but just the level of animation where we can kind of get to decide, okay, we can add like the extra interactive layer to a medium that normally isn't really interactive at all. So that's definitely like the biggest part of it.

• 15:08David Hoffman?

  So with all things, this sounds like the gist of this is like decentralized storytelling. You're allowing storytelling to kind of be pushed to the margins, allowing the users to have say in the outcomes. But also at the same time, sometimes decentralization can be bad. There are a lot of DAOs out there that are just like chickens running around with their heads cut off. And so they actually do kind of need that like centralized leadership. And even with like the choose your own adventure books, like you couldn't make the characters do anything. There were only certain predetermined outcomes on this. And so I'm wondering like what on the spectrum of just like complete community control versus some guided outcomes? How much is like, what does the infrastructure actually look like?

• 15:50David Hoffman?

  Like when you guys like start the story, did you guys start like the gist of the story? And then you want the community to finish it? Or like, how are you guys giving power to the community, but not too much power? How are you like navigating that balance?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  So I think the best way to kind of think about this is referencing, if anybody has seen that one Black Mirror episode on Netflix. It's a one-off called Bandersnatch. And they adopted this sort of choose your own path kind of storytelling model where they pre-shot a bunch of different sequences. And then split it up. So you know, your character could be like having cereal and then between choosing the two different types of cereal, which they're allowing the audience to do, it leads down to a completely different storyline. And then down the path, it could, you know, sort of like loop back into the same storyline again, or it could just go down. You know, there's people who have like mapped out the entire thing. And so we've done something similar where, you know, obviously we have complete sort of like artistic direction.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  That's already been, you know, dictated already. So we show it to the people and then, you know, it's kind of like based on their engagement and their interest levels. And, you know, obviously if anybody has seen Mache's artwork, it's incredibly, he's incredibly talented. And so, you know, most people respond extremely well to this kind of art style, right? And so, and you know, the community doesn't want to actually do the artistic work. They're not, they're not like sitting there like, oh, I don't want to animate either. Like, they want to be fed content and entertainment. But, um, so, you know, we have like sat down and kind of written out, you know, and we start, are still doing this every day, actually. You know, writing out sort of like the general, um, different possible plotlines.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Like you can think of as a node graph and all the different paths that it can take. And just so that we sort of like take the front seat and kind of direct, um, driving the community down this. What we think would be, you know, good storytelling and things like that. But having the community, you know, be a part of, you know, sort of less detrimental decisions like, um. So kind of like giving them an option or like a palate tasting, right? And not having them create the meal from scratch is how you can think about it.

• 18:03David Hoffman?

  I love, I love that metaphor. It's like a, it's like a tasting menu. And that also i- it makes it so that you guys don't have to go do like five storylines of work just for the community to pick one of them. And then you just wasted four storylines of, of, you know, production value that you are not ever going to use. But is that the final form of what this kind of vision looks like? Like, uh, in, uh, how, in what ways are you interested in like kind of opening it up even more?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  So it's not always a binary choice, actually. Um, future chapters, there's going to be, um, ones where it's not just, uh, binary choices. But on top of that, you know, because it is a native web three, um, media that we're, you know, broadcasting this on. It's a web series, right? Like, and so, um, we are really trying to take advantage of the fact that, um, it's web free native. And so, you know, an example of this is we're like partnering with D Gen Score. And, you know, they're the guys who are building, um, technology related to scanning, you know, on chain identity and wallet history. And so you can imagine like one of the chapters where, you know, somebody like David, who's interacted, let's say with Uniswap a bunch of times.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  You know, based on your wallet history, you're seeing a different, uh, version of the episode than what I'm seeing. Um, and so that's kind of like, you know, things that we're experimenting with and adding, you know, depths to how this kind of storytelling is possible and making it. Even more interactive beyond just it being sort of like a binary option and choice.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I could add maybe what you touched upon in terms of like how scalable that would be in terms of like the the taste palette and like pre-scripted decision making. One of the one of the interesting things we already found out, uh, working on chapter two and chapter one is that we asked, we actually talk with community and ask like what what they feel the story is going to be like where where they think the direction is going and why they made one decision over other. And that kind of like informs us to look at the plotline we have and sort of like the story structure and and and be experimental in terms of, okay, maybe there's a specific visual cue

• 20:17Speaker 03

  that we're going to add that is a reaction to what community's expression to what they saw already was. So in terms, yes, it's it's sort of like a curated experience because obviously when you're filmmaking, you kind of have to do that to make a cohesive story that that holds together, glues together. The characters make sense, they they talk and that makes sense, obviously. And the story concludes one way or another, but there's always like side elements or even just main plot elements that could be changed, whether it's visually or through the audio or through the music or even through the dialogue, where the story still holds holds together, but it's a it's a pure reaction to how

• 21:01Speaker 03

  people who engage the content and wanted to participate on the level of voting and and and and voting with tokens and whatnot to a point where those decisions can have like a like a domino effect on what's going to happen later. So as Emily mentioned, we pretty much every day, we are kind of sitting and writing. It's because like we do have the story, we do have a structure of what the scene is going to play out. But there's also like, okay, how can we kind of spice it up based on what's happening? And that's that's the interesting part too, because it's very challenging in the pers- in from a perspective of directing and editing.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  But it's also like super exciting because you get to like.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Almost crowdsource the outcome with the community, which is, which is great. I feel like projects, artistic projects that combine community input and really like cater to the community itself as almost like a love letter of like, hey, here's a piece of entertainment, but you're also part of it are probably the most interesting projects in my opinion, rather than just like, hey, here's, here's the content, watch it, like it, like it or leave it. That works too, but it's very rare you find, find real gems when that happens.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like, you know, sort of so many like Hollywood productions or things like that are in such like closed doors, like, you know, they're always like boxed into some studio and people like don't see what's going on, but everybody is curious, right? And so this is sort of like a more transparent way for us to be like, this is how we're making it. And, you know, everybody who's in on this early, like clearly because it's just started production, right? You guys are all part of like the storytelling aspect of it.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just want to add that our Discord community has been pretty amazing. Like, people are crazy about potential plots, determine scenarios, have all these different theories of what the story actually means. To see that organically grow and people participating and be really, really invested into the show is pretty amazing.

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• 24:11David Hoffman?

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• 24:55David Hoffman?

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• 25:36David Hoffman?

  If you want to bridge your assets quickly and securely, go to across.to to bridge your assets between ETH, Optimism, Arbitrum, or Boba Networks. Yeah, I remember during the, when Game of Thrones was in its peak, the Game of Thrones subreddit was like one of the most lively spots on the internet, and there was just so much ideating on theory and conspiracy theories and like, yeah, what's going to happen in the future? And then also just kind of its own culture and its own vibes as well. And what I'm getting out of this is very much aligned with the whole Web 3 narrative where, you know, previously in the trad Web 2 world, you have exactly what PeoplePlease was just saying, you're kind of just like spoon fed.

• 26:17David Hoffman?

  Content like here's the story like I hope you like it and you either like it or you don't but in the web three world the the possibility that tokens have to return voice to echo back towards the leadership saying oh hey we like that versus oh hey we don't like that or actually just giving them like user autonomy to actually be a part of the creative process I think it's actually a really big challenge because in the web to tradfi world you had the benefits of just like centralized talent just producing it and it just worked and in the web three world we see this potential where we have you know the talent which is you guys the co-founders but also trying to figure out how to also empower the community

• 27:00David Hoffman?

  which might be people that you know are explicitly not talented people and so I think the challenge that you guys have is well how do you guys as artists how do you enable the good expression to come out of your community have you guys thought about this angle and how you guys plan on doing that?

• 27:18Speaker 01

  I think we're pretty pleasantly surprised actually you know I think I sort of started in well first we have these like token gated discord channels where we think of it like more of like a writer's room or producer's room right and I sort of really encourage people in there to start you know talking about their theories and you know their analyzations of the plot and things going forward and Easter eggs and such and yeah it was honestly a pleasant surprise of how sort of much attention to detail that people actually are and they're surprisingly really good writers too so maybe we've been really lucky in that regard that we haven't received sort of any super terrible ideas

• 27:58Speaker 01

  on top of that there's always sort of like a comedic element to it so anything that's like really terrible is has always been sarcastic and intended to be a joke like oh we should name the main character Kevin you know like things like that but nobody's actually you know giving out really really bad ideas and in fact we really encourage that too and obviously we have some kind of like filtration system too where if somebody's like we want to you know make a you know not PG 13 film or something then obviously we can you know sort of veto that of course

• 28:31David Hoffman?

  I think the other dynamic here is where a lot of like DeFi, Web3 protocols, they need governance for a means to an end, as in they need governance to produce the outcome. But I think with this, like the product itself is the governance. As in like this is a governance platform, what are we governing over this story? But it's about the governance, the governance is the product. And the value of the governance is a function of like how interesting and valuable this story is. I want to put listeners into the shoes of what they would actually expect if they were participating here. What is it actually, like if they want to go and consume this story? Well, what's the format? We're talking about like, you know, five-minute short-form videos? Like what should listeners expect if they wanted to actually go watch the story?

• 29:16David Hoffman?

  And then maybe we can actually start talking about the website.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  So our users would go on shibuya.xid. The first chapter that we made, I would say is, you know, probably around like just a little over a minute long. And it's probably a little bit shorter because it's sort of the initial proof of concept that we are releasing to the world, right? And also, keep in mind, we did this with zero funding, like it was completely grassroots. Like our first round of sort of, you know, any kind of support that came in, came in from us, you know, selling producer passes. But before that, everything, we just sat here and, you know, sort of like built it and made the animation without. It was literally just Masha and I.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And so what you can expect is you go on the website and you see this super beautiful animation in the style of Masha's artwork. And then, yeah, and then I would say each sort of like alternate ending has their, are a little bit different in length too. But yeah, roughly just a little over one minute. And we're obviously already working on the second chapter. That is expected to be around just over two minutes long. And

• 30:32David Hoffman?

  Maybe more.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe more because, you know, it's constantly evolving and changing. And, you know, basically, you know, literally every day we're like adding or subtracting things. Into the plot and things like that. But yeah, we're hoping, you know, if anybody has seen Love, Death and Robots, those are really, really high quality animated shorts and each of them are between, let's say, like six to 15 minutes long. And we are hoping for White Rabbit at the end of every chapter stitched together to be probably an over 15 minute, high quality, short film animation.

• 31:06David Hoffman?

  So with that first episode, that was just you guys setting the scene, setting the stage. Not too much governance in that first episode, more governance into the second episode. And then how many like, how many governance decisions do you think is going to be happening per episode? Like, how like, how many decisions does the community need to make? Or is it just, is it just the ending?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Well, for starting from chapter two already, we have the voting of the name of the main character. And I would expect that we have a lot more coming in, you know, some of them that we're sort of still working on right now and maybe sometimes like meant to be a surprise as well. And, you know, there's sort of other things like in the first chapter already, and we're probably going to do this for many, many chapters. We have these, what we're calling Japanese good luck bags, which was actually a wallet that we seeded with some NFTs. So in that, in the first one, there was a one-on-one people pleaser, a one-on-one machete NFT, a cryptoed and a crypto dickbutt.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And we, so after seeding that wallet, actually, you know, so this was all already very early on, you know, we've planned this from the beginning. And then so we generated the seed phrase for that wallet. And they're actually, each word in the seed phrase was hidden in a very specific, in various different parts across chapter one. And then we actually, you know, upon release, we just tweeted, we didn't even say that there was a seed phrase. We just tweeted the NFTs that are in the goodie bag and then we said, Somewhere in this episode, you know, lies some goodies to be found, finders keepers. And then to our surprise, actually, within two hours, somebody had figured it out and transferred out the NFTs, which is really crazy.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  And so we are also thinking that in the future, maybe the governance will also include people voting on what goes in the goodie bags for future chapters, for example.

• 33:07David Hoffman?

  How do you make sure, I know we, I mentioned how like governance is the product, so people should be expecting to go in and make a lot of decisions, but also, how do you, you guys thought about like things like voter fatigue, or just like, oh, I only really care about these things, I don't really care about the other things? How are you guys managing that?

• 33:23Speaker 01

  I think voter fatigue will always exist, and maybe for sort of like DeFi protocols, they're a little bit more sort of, how do you say this, like hindering towards furthering governance, but actually, I feel like for what we're doing on, you know, White Rabbit or just in Shibuya in general, it might not be a bad thing, because then it will really show you kind of who is truly engaged in the content that's being made, right? We don't want people who don't care. And so the people who really care and are really sort of like devoted, you can think of them as super fans, so just like you said, you know, not everybody's gonna go on those Game of Thrones subreddits and go and comment, you know, their thoughts about everything, but the people that are doing that are people who care a lot.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  And this is obviously the kind of community that we are trying to give our content towards. You know, the content is actually essentially going to be free for anybody to watch, even if you don't have, you know, a Metaverse wallet and stuff, it will always be free to watch up until the point where there's a vote happening. But the kind of people that we want to be, you know, minting the producer passes, staking it and getting the governance tokens are the kind of super fans who really like it because they, you know, really love the content and not just because they're a passive viewer.

• 34:40David Hoffman?

  So one of my favorite stories from the internet is the story of when, I can't remember who did it, but they let the internet decide who was gonna name this one boat. I can't remember where this was, but the internet decided that the name of the boat was gonna be Bodie McBoatface? Just because that's what happens when you let some internet degens, internet trolls, like name your stuff. Are you guys worried that like somebody, like the people are just gonna come in and start naming things? Or just basically breaking things with governance? Or is that actually a feature? Because they're unable to do that.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  I think we're almost a... Part of the charm of White Rabbit and this whole project is that we're not taking ourselves too seriously. You know, we have some silly Easter eggs in there, like it starts with in the year 2069. And you know, kind of the gist of it, or you know, sort of playing on this whole culture of Web3 in general is just, you know, this kind of mindset of it looks good or it's super high quality, but at the same time, we're not taking ourselves so seriously, like everything in Hollywood, actually. And so I think we're just gonna have fun with it. Obviously, we're not gonna, you know, we're gonna prevent things like naming our character Hitler or something like that, but otherwise, I don't see it as, you know, much of a minus,

• 35:58Speaker 01

  but rather like an interesting experiment that we're conducting right now.

• 36:02David Hoffman?

  Jackie, I wanna get into some of the dev technical questions of this, which is hard for me because I'm not a developer, so sometimes I don't know what questions I want, I need to ask. But I think the first question is like, in your experience as a dev, how has this particular project been like unique or challenging to you? Like, what are the unique aspects about this project that really stand out from a developer's perspective?

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is actually my first Web3 project. So it was really fun to kind of learn, you know, smart contracts and all these different things. And I think the part that actually stood out the most was the tokenomics. So like, you know, you can easily write a smart contract, you know, to generate PFPs and a lot of these things that people have done already. But to design a system with tokenomics to kind of dictate the behavior of your users was very interesting. So like, for example, when people vote, we have a mechanism where if you vote on the winning side, you actually get a 10% bonus of tokens. So these different designs where we can kind of leverage to incentivize different behavior is very fun.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  And we thought like, what if people just wait till the end and not vote and then see, you know, which side is the winning vote and then just all vote on that side? So then we also implemented like a early staking bonus where the earlier you vote, you know, the more tokens you get. So in a way where voting early and getting it wrong is actually more profitable than voting late and getting it right. So, so I think other than the technical smart contracts with the website, the tokenomics part really stood out to me as very fun and interesting to design.

• 37:37David Hoffman?

  So there's two tokens in this ecosystem, I believe. There's the producer passes, which is the NFT 1155, I think is the right EIP. And then there's also the, the white rabbit token, the ERC 20 token. How many producer passes are there? And is that, and that's, that producer pass is basically like the funding for the project, right? That's like how you guys are, are paying for development. Is that right?

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there's 5,000 producer passes for the first chapter.

• 38:04David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And we actually have a bonding curve implemented for the entire show. So like the next chapter, we might have more producer passes for people to mint. So in a way, the ERC 20, the white rabbit token is a fixed supply, 69 million, 420, 420.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  But for every chapter, people get the same amount of tokens. So when just more producer passes, actually you can, you get the most tokens from minting early. So we also wanted to work with people who support the show from the beginning.

• 38:36David Hoffman?

  And then the white rabbit tokens. Talk about the, the value of the white rabbit tokens. Why would people want those?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  So they're basically valueless. They're governance tokens, right? So having those tokens allow you to, you know, participate in the voting, all the stuff we talked about, be on the leaderboard and, you know, be in the gated Discord, then get a Telegram and talk to us, give us your input, your theories about the show. Yeah. So basically a valueless governance token.

• 39:04David Hoffman?

  I, I see on the website that, uh, once the film is completed, it will be turned into a fractionalized NFT. Maybe you guys are using fractional for that or something, maybe not.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're using fractional dot art for this. So actually in the beginning, we created this vault that minted this fixed amount, supply of tokens. And we seeded it with two NFTs to create this basket that can hold multiple NFTs. So what we will do is, in the end of the show, when, you know, all the chapters are completed and connected together, we will then transfer the NFT into that fractional vault.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  So essentially, the ERC 20 is a fractional ownership of the NFT.

• 39:40David Hoffman?

  The NFT of the full-length movie, of the full-length show. Do the token owners also own the IP to that show? Or is the IP irrelevant a variable here?

• 39:52Speaker 03

  It's a good question. Right now, we're basically looking at all the possibilities, really. There's also like just general implications in terms of like what decisions you make in terms of IP rights. As anyone who lives in US, you probably understand how complex IP rights, copyrights, and trademarks are. And so we're very closely looking at what that is, and if that's gonna be part of the project or not. Usually, the way we look at the project in general, just Shibuya in general, and White Rabbit specifically as well,

• 40:33Speaker 03

  is we like to not promise things that we're not sure we can deliver, and instead focus on the things that we know we can deliver and promise those instead. And then everything that comes after would be an extra bonus. Literally, kind of like that kind of approach. And that stems from the fact that if you follow any of the Web2 projects, like specifically Kickstarter's, there's just so many stories of Kickstarter's promising amazing ideas and never delivering. And there's obviously examples where they deliver and it's an amazing product,

• 41:16Speaker 03

  but for every example of something that worked out and is amazing, there's 100 examples of something that didn't work out and turned into, you know, a shitshow, let's say. And by virtue of creating this thing, we completely wanna avoid that. We don't wanna promise things that we don't believe in.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  We don't wanna build stuff we don't believe in. We don't wanna be on the hook of like, hey, give us A, and we'll potentially, maybe, sometime in the future, give you a B. It's just not the way we like to operate. We just wanna build this platform and the film to be an interactive experience, something new that that is just not, uh, haven't existed before. And take everyone on the ride, everyone who's interested and wants to participate and wants to become part of not only just community, but like, as you said, the governance of it all.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Uh, where it's like, you're not just participating and consuming content, you're actually actively, uh, you know, participating in making the content better than it would have been if it was like spoon fed to you, so.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  I would just say, um, instead of looking at the tokens as, you know, IP, I would more look at it as like a DAO. So like, every potential future shows we have on the platform could be its own DAO where the community can make decisions together, push the film forward, and all have skin in the game.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, obviously this is a original IP by, um, you know, myself and Shea in terms of like fully creatively, you know, we've created this from scratch, right? And so, uh, but, you know, we're thinking of this differently from, let's say, a PFP project where people might be thinking, oh, if I buy this PFP, can I, you know, put it on a tote bag and start like selling those tote bags? And this is kind of the usual discussions around IP and things like that. Um, but our native media is just different, right? It's a film and it's meant to be consumed and the main purpose of it is entertainment. And so we're kind of trying to bring it back to the whole concept of people going to a movie theater and they're not thinking, oh my gosh, how am I gonna profit off this movie? Like they're buying a movie ticket because I wanna exchange my time and, you know,

• 43:33Speaker 01

  however much this ticket costs for some, um, two hours of entertainment, um, things like that. And so this is really what we're trying to bring it back to.

• 43:41David Hoffman?

  So let's take the perspective of, uh, a wide variety of potential users slash consumers of Shibuya. There's, there's the, you know, the nine to five worker who wants to just come back and relax and see what Shibuya is up to. Or there's the internet NFT Dgen who's in their basement playing with NFTs all the time and they want actually to have deep involvement. Just what are all the ways that people can enjoy? This platform, either with just consuming it or actually participating. Let's go through the just a full spectrum of how one would engage with Shibuya.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yes, so if you're, you know, tradfi bob and nothing wrong with that, but you just like work a nine to five and you're super tired, right? You don't have time to be on the internet all day and you come home and wanna just consume content. Uh, I do this too, then you would just go on to um Shibuya right now, which only has White Rabbit um as the main IP, but we are onboarding more um very quickly actually. And so uh you would just log on to it. Um, you don't even need to connect your wallet or anything. Uh, you can just hit the play button and it will just play up until the point where um there is governance uh happening. So for example, if we're on chapter five already, you can watch the first five chapters uh and be entertained that way.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  If you are, you know, internet uh Chad and you wanna be super duper duper involved since the very beginning, um then you would obviously, you know, hopefully we already have, you know, found out about this super early and then participated since chapter one, but you know, even on chapter two, then you would go on. Um, and whenever there's a governance, you know, and the plot happening, uh, the website will actually just tell you, you know, whether you're connected to MetaMask or not, if you click on something um where there's, you know, sort of a plot or a governance vote happening, then uh there will be a dialogue box that will pop up and be like, connect your wallet. And then say, do you wanna mint a producer pass if you don't have any? And if you already have producer passes, then be like, do you wanna stake it? And you know, whichever option that you decide.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  And then after you stake it, there'll be some confetti that's thrown in the air and they'll be like, here, you just earned, you know, X amount of uh White Rabbit token. And yeah, and then, you know, after that, their involvement will look something like, you know, go on to the discords to participate in token data channels or just, yeah, it's kind of like a DAO where people are just um really passionate about discussing this plot of this going forward and you know what their theories are and what things that they want to see being voted on and you know what they want the governance tokens to be used for. And um so I would say, you know, those are sort of like the. Two extreme levels of involvement. There's also the people who are just minting producer passes and who don't stake it. Um, I don't know why you would do that. Because you should just get some government's tokens anyway.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Um, but that's totally fine, too. Some people are just like, "Oh, I think these producer passes look cool." And it's kind of like collecting, you know, because because we we are, we will have a new one for each chapter. So, you know, and we do actually have something very special planned for people who collect all of the producer passes from each chapter. So it's just kind of like a stamped book, right? You're like, "Oh, I've collected them all." And so those are the sort of different levels of engagement and involvement that we uh are seeing.

• 46:49David Hoffman?

  Are there any like really grandiose ideas that you guys have when you like daydream about the future of this model? As in like, I don't know, maybe some some short story, short form movie, maybe not so short, uh, is become so popular that it starts to air in movie theaters. And the the token holders have some sort of like participation in the creation of that value that is now eking out of the web three world and back into the traditional world. I don't know. That's just an idea that I had. Uh, like, what what what's some grandiose ideas? If this this this platform is like maximally successful in like three, five, 10 years? Do you guys thought like ideated around this?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  I think actually maybe one of the really big dreams for us, and it seems like, you know, it is quite possible is, for example, when the whole thing is finished, um, we can have like a premiere um event or maybe multiple in different cities. And um so there's like kind of like premiere screenings. Um, and also uh we're thinking, you know, sort of like different ways um to do this, but either people have collected the whole set or certain amount of uh RAB token can exchange a premiere ticket um that you can attend and things like this. And so um, you know, basically just thinking of anything in the traditional sense that what are sort of like the highlights of, you know, the the evolution of making a film, right?

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Usually it's like the premiere and, you know, just like the a premiere is essentially the a celebration of um the completion of a film. I always like to think of movies as like they're essentially pop-up companies if you think about it. It's incredible that, you know, when movies get made, all these people assemble to sort of like work through towards the same goal, you know? And then at the end of it, it gets disassembled. But before that, they all have sort of a really happy premiere event. Um, and it is a very grandiose celebration. And so I think that's one of the things that we're really excited about. And, you know, people who are producers or anything are obviously all welcome to attend.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  I would just add on the level of of credits, you know, I mean, me, like both myself and Emily, we worked in in Hollywood and on films and and video games. And usually what happens when you watch credits, like at first, like the director, producers, writers, actors, that's kind of given. And then whoever drove them to the set, and then whoever catered the food, whoever like delivered the mail and and the list goes on and on and on. And that at the very end is like actually people who made it, like artists and designers and animators and all those other like

• 49:27Speaker 03

  workers and there's hundreds of them usually. And it's just like you watch that and it's like, it's obviously an amazing experience, especially if you worked on the movie to sit in the theater and like actually experience it and see yourself in the credits. So like that's what we're kind of expecting to have the community. Like if we, if in our dreams, let's say we have a premiere of White Rabbit uh in Chinese theater, for instance, in L A or or in some like really nice place where people can go and participate. Like imagine being a person who voted for the name of the character and made multiple votes that actually shaped the story. And you watch it with friends and they're like, yeah, I voted for that. That's, that's, that's why this, this, this went that direction.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  And at the end it's like, look, that's my name in the credits. I'm the executive producer. And it's just like, it creates a, it's create, creates a memory that's just sticks around forever. It's like you're a part of some of of a project that. That is just fun and you know, obviously, we cannot predict the outcome of where the White Rabbit's gonna go, how successful it's going to be, but that's not the point for making it. And for someone who worked in the movies for past 10 years, you usually learn that you work on the project and you don't really know if the movie's gonna be really successful or not. I'll tell you that from my personal experience, the film that I was expecting, "Oh, my God, this is going to be a hit," flopped.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  And then the films that I was working on was like, "Ah, it's just another film." Just blew up to a point of like, "I don't even wanna post work cuz I'm getting mobbed."

• 51:05Speaker 03

  For doing, like, mobbed in the positive way for doing that, right? So it's definitely like experience building and we have like really grand ideas and daydreaming, obviously. It's just, it's just very difficult to conceive like how to get there. So we're kind of taking it step by step. We're gonna have like the starting point. We know what we're building right now and what are the immediate steps to continue. Number one priority right now is continuing the story, obviously, of the White Rabbit. And we wanna make this as the most excellent experience and then just experiment with it.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  And I think those experimentations will also carve different ways in terms of where Shibuya itself could go, so.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I think for me, like, a big idea is I love seeing platforms giving creators more options and make it easier for creators to actually put their content out there and get seen. I think for now, it's like really hard for independent filmmakers to actually get funding, go through the whole process in Hollywood and get their film made and then premiered. So I hope like if Shibuya does grow further, further into a, you know, bigger platform than. It'll make it a lot easier for creators, filmmakers to actually produce their shows.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, like almost we, we kind of also, I think we talked about it, like becoming almost on-ramp for really talented artists that maybe don't have funding to actually start developing anything. And we can help them with that. So that's, that's like the, the dream. It's like, it's like what, what artists who learned craft without going to art schools, a lot of them teach after they achieve a certain level as a, as a like giveaway to community that helped them to become what they become. Sort of, we're thinking the similar way. But again, it's, it's so far from the, the peripheral view that it's very difficult to conceive how to get there, but there's always a path, so.

• 53:11David Hoffman?

  I think moving into the, the metaverse sci-fi web three future, using this as like a model, we kind of see in the current way that Hollywood is structured is you just have these like very superstar director names, like you know, M. Night Shyamalan, or you know, insert, insert your favorite director here, Quentin Tarantino. I think maybe in the metaverse, the new version of this, the web three version of this is instead guilds, like the Shibuya Guild, like the Shibuya Director, except instead of one person, it's just this nebulous set of people that are contributors. And maybe they have such a strong track record of building really cool stories that they're, they are renowned as a guild, as a, as a DAO, as an org for

• 53:56David Hoffman?

  producing and directing really, really good shows. And I think that would make you guys something like the production company, or I don't know, like Warner Brothers, I think maybe is the right branding, I don't know. But basically you have like, you're decentralizing the director, but keeping a relatively centralized production company. I think this is the right model. But the, the final question I think that I think is really important is, what are the key? Things that you guys need to do as sort of like a leadership team of sorts to really make sure that this project is successful. Like, how do you maximally enable your guys' community to make sure that the outcome of this is, you know, something that is actually the right

• 54:38David Hoffman?

  time for this very ambitious project and not something that's like five or 10 years too soon? What are the key things that you guys understand, the key obstacles that you guys need to overcome in order to make this a success?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  I think the first one is probably distribution, but we are having sort of very interesting conversations with potential people that can collaborate with us on that field. And the second one, I think, and always the last line of it, is the content needs to be really good. And so, you know, with White Rabbit, you know, we're hoping, obviously, to make an anime that's very interesting, but also, right now, we are working, you know, to onboard other sort of content that we find. At the end of the day, you know, when you think of all the really, really good, you know, TV shows out there and stuff, I think really what stands the test of time is good content, right? Like, Breaking Bad has like a cult

• 55:34Speaker 01

  following, Game of Thrones has a cult following. These shows didn't develop a cult following just for no reason. It's because the content is good. Same with Squid Game, you know, who knew? Like, they were not, you know, they didn't have any sort of Hollywood connections or anything. They're, you know, a Korean drama that probably most Westerners, maybe before Squid Game, had never even watched a Korean drama before. And then it became a worldwide sensation. Why? Because the content is good. And so, you know, that's something that we really, truly firmly believe in as one of our core values and is what we're laying the foundation for right now. And that is our main priority, is just to make the content really good. And hopefully, you know, when people see that, they will naturally

• 56:15Speaker 01

  be sort of more interested to engage. And, you know, and then on top of that, we're making it, you know, a different type of model where it is free for people to watch. But, you know, if you want to decide what goes on the screens, you have to pay. Same concept in Time Square should be a crossing. And so, that's kind of, yeah, what we're gearing ourselves towards.

• 56:38David Hoffman?

  So guys, I think people by now are definitely ready to finally go and experience this for themselves. So if they want to go watch the first episode, where should they go?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  They should head over to shibuya.xyz. It's a pretty straightforward website. There's a play button. Just hit play. And, you know, obviously, we'll be rolling out Chapter Tune fairly soon. Or fairly soon, I mean, you know, within the next month or two, for sure. And, yeah, so stay tuned. And we also have a Twitter that people can follow. And then there you'll find, you know, where you can find our Discord and also just things that we're posting, like behind the scenes. And, you know, just updates about the show in general.

• 57:22David Hoffman?

  And for the podcast listeners out there, that's S H I B U Y A dot X Y Z. And then the Twitter account is S H I B U Y A X Y Z without the dot on Twitter. Guys, thank you so much for coming and demoing Shibuya. I think this is gonna be a really interesting project, and I wish you guys the best.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 57:41Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.

• 57:43David Hoffman?

  Cheers. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a Bankless Premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless Premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders, Ask Me Anythings,

• 58:26David Hoffman?

  and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks, everyone, for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless Nation.