Camille Herron: Crushing World Records, Narrowing The Gender Gap, And The Power of Happiness

She collects world records with wild abandon. With each race, she narrows the gender gap, rewriting the rulebook on human capability with a broad smile and arms outstretched. Meet force of nature Camille Herron. Alongside 21 marathon victories, Camille won the Comrades Marathon in 2017, becoming the first athlete to win World Championship titles in the 50K, 100K and clocking the most miles in 24 hours (167.8 to be specific) of any woman in history. Just after turning 40, earlier this year Camille took home a big win at the Jackpot 100, beating all the men and besting her own 100-mile Road World Record. In addition, Camille is the youngest woman to reach 100,000-lifetime running miles and she holds my favorite world record—fastest marathon in a superhero costume—running 2:48 dressed head to toe as Spiderwoman. Today she shares her unique story, in her own unique way. How can a woman who commits herself to such hellish feats of physical performance remain so joyous? Today we dissect it all: Camille’s relentless positivity, her unique backstory, her unique, quality over quantity training style, how she thinks about closing the gender gap in ultra running, the importance of strength training, how blood work has impacted her focus on nutrition, the difference between trail running and road running, her near term goals and future ambitions. We also talk about how she manages being married to her coach Conor Holt, how running can be self-transcendent, and many other interesting topics. More about Camille + show notes: https://bit.ly/richroll689 Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: https://bit.ly/camilleherron689a Camille is an unbridled optimist, a super fun hang, and an inspiration for all—especially for those of us pondering our athletic capabilities as we age up. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I think about when I reached my mid-30s. I thought it was all downhill from here, but I feel like I'm reaching my prime right now. And I mean, it's incredible because here I've been a runner for 27 years and I'm still getting better. You know, at age 40, I'm somebody that doesn't really limit myself. If I set a goal for something, like, I just go after it. I just, you know, bite down and go after that goal. It's not just me trying to reach a personal goal. I'm doing this for the world. I'm doing this to, you know, elevate the sport, to raise the bar in what women think is possible.

• 1:48Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  I've been known to host an ultra runner or two here on the show over the years. And for those of you who enjoy those types of conversations, you, my friends, are in for a treat because today's guest is no ordinary ultra runner. Camille Herron has been on an absolute tear as of late, collecting world records with Wild Abandon, and is well on her way to not only rewriting history when it comes to human capability, but also how we think about athletic ability as we age. Camille's accomplishments are far too numerous to list here, but highlights include 21 marathon victories, winning the

• 2:34Rich Roll?

  Comrades Marathon in 2017, becoming the first athlete to win world championship titles in the 50K, 100K, and 24 Hours, and clocking the most miles in a 24-hour period, 167.8, to be specific, of any woman in history. Earlier this year at the Jackpot 100, just after turning 40, Camille won the race outright, beating all the men, and bested her own 100-mile road world record by clocking 12 hours, 41 minutes. It's an effort that also earned her the 12-hour world record and a slew of Masters World Records as well. In addition,

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  Camille is the youngest woman to reach 100,000 lifetime running miles. She recently beat Harvey Lewis to outright win the Strolling Gym 40-miler, and she holds my favorite world record, fastest marathon in a superhero costume, running 248 dressed head to toe as Spider-Woman. Needless to say, Camille is a force of nature. This is just an awesome conversation, and it's coming right up. But first.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  Okay, so the other really interesting thing about Camille is that similar to Courtney DeWalter, the ultra phenom she's often compared to, Camille is just a really happy and joyous person. So what is that all about? Well, what that's all about is something we definitely get into today, as well as her backstory, of course, her unique quality over quantity training style. We talk about how she thinks about narrowing the gender gap in ultra running, the importance of strength training, how blood work has impacted her focus on nutrition, the difference between trail running and road running. We also talk about her near-term

• 4:34Rich Roll?

  goals and future ambitions, how she manages being married to her coach, Conor Holt, how running can be self-transcendent, and many other interesting topics. Camille's a kick in the pants. She's also a super fun hang and just this unbridled optimist, and generally just amazingly inspiring, especially for those of us who are pondering our athletic capabilities as we age up. My name is Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast, and here we go, me and Camille here.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  Well, welcome to Los Angeles.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  We have some nice weather for you.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  It got pretty warm.

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:18Rich Roll?

  Well, it's good for you, right?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  You need a little bit of heat acclimation as you're thinking about bad water sometime in your future, I would imagine, right?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I'm training for Western States right now.

• 5:29Rich Roll?

  I know, that's the big goal at the moment, right?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:31Rich Roll?

  So how's it all going?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Oh, great. Oh, great. I'm super fit. Yeah, I'm like already, you know, under seven weeks out right now, and I've been road training and my speed is amazing right now. I mean, I just won a 40 miler last weekend, and I mean, that was a short speed work for me. I'm training more for 100 miles and beyond, so running, you know, 40 miles was like a piece of cake, it seemed like. But I mean, it's still hilly, so it kind of, it's kind of priming me for Western States right now. But yeah, doing the trail run with Shannon got me more on trails, and I just, I feel fast.

• 6:07Rich Roll?

  Good.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Super fast.

• 6:08Rich Roll?

  Well, you are fast.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  I feel fast, yeah.

• 6:11Rich Roll?

  And that 40 miler last week was a las race, right? And you took Harvey down to the mat.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I did, I did. It was super fun. I mean, like, just, I mean, we love each other and I mean, it's just, you know, competitive spirit out there. And yeah, I mean, when Connor told me that he was two minutes behind and then 50 seconds behind and I only had a couple of miles ago, I said, it's time to go beast mode.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  Well, you're on like quite a tear. I mean, you've had like an unbelievable last sort of 18 months of just ticking off world records and winning races. So the mojo that you have right now going into Western States has got to be pretty empowering.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've, you know, of all the races I've got to win, you know, I've won comrades and the bucket list, triple crown of ultras is to win comrades, Western States, UTMB. So I'm really focused on Western States now. And, you know, once I can take that off, then I can focus on UTMB and try to become the first athlete to win the triple crown of ultras. So, but yeah, I won comrades back in 2017. And yeah, I've just, I've been focused more on world records here the past couple of years. And now I'm kind of starting to focus more on trail running. And yeah, it's just really fun. So.

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  Well, you're collecting world records like it's a bad habit. I can't even keep track of how many world records you you have. And every time you do a race, multiple records fall because these races are so long. And now that you're a masters athlete, you're collecting those along the way as well. So it's hard to even know where to start here. But I think maybe let's begin with the most recent, like the jackpot 100 mile world record, because that's the thing that got a lot of attention for you all of a sudden and sort of took you out of the insular subculture of ultra running and kind of put you in mainstream awareness because you got a lot of media attention for that. So walk me through how you broke this world record for running 100 miles.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So fortunately, I ran jackpot last year. And that was the race that made me realize I had some issues with my health. And so I ended Up doing a lot of blood work right after that race and found out that I had high iron and low magnesium. So I was imbalanced in terms of my minerals. And so going into Western States last year, I had these health issues and I just didn't have time to really troubleshoot and get my health in balance for Western States. So after Western States in July, I started working with a dietitian and she was the one that started altering my diet. I started doing what's called

• 8:51Speaker 01

  the root cause protocol to try and get my iron down and get my magnesium up. And it's kind of this quirky diet that I have to consume. And so she was the one that got me, you know, consuming, changing my diet a bit. And that was what relit the inferno that I've been missing the past couple years. So I was really determined. I've been on quite a tear. I won the Haveling 100. I went to Desert Solstice. And yeah, I've just been breaking records.

• 9:22Rich Roll?

  Desert Solstice was a 24 hour race.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I ended up, yeah, I ended up, I was actually pacing for 24 hours and I ended up deciding to stop at 100 miles because I was having a bit of a knee issue at that race. But I ended up breaking my world record for 100 miles on the track. So I still got records at that race. And then I was able to recover from that race and go into Jackpot 100, just, you know, really ready to redeem myself. And knew it had a really good competitive field for both the men and the women. And yeah, I mean, I was training, you know, pretty, pretty conservatively because it was kind of early, you know, in January and I'm obviously trying to build up for Western States. So yeah,

• 10:09Speaker 01

  training for Jackpot and the race is in February. And so it's kind of an early season race. So I wasn't training super hard in January. I was just training, you know, pretty modestly going into it. And then on top of it, we decided to move back to Oklahoma, which is my home state. And so yeah, we did that, like, I don't know, it was. Like two weeks before jackpot. But I felt like just getting back to being around my friends and my family kind of gave me a bit of a boost going into the jackpot 100. And yeah, I mean, I just went in like, you know, pretty open minded with, uh, you know, not knowing if I could go for my world records,

• 10:48Speaker 01

  but obviously ready to redeem myself and have a really good performance after last year's race. So.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  Right. So the jackpot for people who don't know is in Las Vegas and it's sort of a little bit over, it's like a 1.2 mile loop or something like that. You do like 85 loops. And what's interesting is that it's a public park, right? It's open, like people are walking their dogs and pushing their kids in strollers and you kind of have to dodge those people as you're running around, right?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:17Rich Roll?

  Do they even know what's going on?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  It's, it's pretty wild. And I mean, when I look at my GPS after the race, I think I had like 100.1 miles. So, uh, you know, who knows how much of that, you know, is.

• 11:30Rich Roll?

  Was sidestepping, yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty, I'm pretty used to that because like when I go to the 24 hour world championship, I'm weaving around people for 24 hours. So, uh, obviously there's a little bit of, you know, the added challenge of trying not to trip and fall and a little bit of extra added mileage that you have to do. And but yeah, I, I actually going into jackpot 100, um, I mean, the men took off, you know, I let the men go. And I said, I'm going to run my own race and just see what happens, you know? I really trusted myself that I was going to be strong later in the race because, uh, women tend to be really strong later in the races. And so I just had that trust in myself that I was going to chase down the men.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  And, um, sure enough, it started to happen, uh, you know, after 50 miles, I mean, I caught a couple of the men. And before I know it, I'm chasing down the, the top man, uh, Arlen Glick, um, after 80 miles. And so, um, in my mind, that's like, you know, taking the bull by the horns. Like I, I grew up in Oklahoma and I always had this mental image of this bull behind our house when I grew up. And I imagine myself, you know, take the bull by the horns and staring him in the eyes and just, you know, just ride the, ride the bull, you know?

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  So for perspective, you you win that race in 12 hours and 41 minutes. So that's a 737 pace, right?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  And I think some of your last miles were around the seven minute mark or even below that, like you were just killing it all the way to the end.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was it was super fun. I I think of myself, I grew up as a basketball player and I think of Michael Jordan, you know, nailing the free throws, you know, to win the championship. And in my mind, that that's what it's about. It's about that feeling of, you know, being on being on the free throw line, trying to nail the free throws. And so, and I, you know, I I channel a lot of thoughts. Everybody wants to know what's going in my head. And I mean, I grew up as a basketball player, learning how to shoot free throws because of my dad. And so when I'm in that position to, you know, take the bull by the horns, shoot the free throws, I mean, I just really step up my game. And I think that that's that's what I'm really good at, you know, bringing bringing out the best of me, you know, at those clutch moments when, you know, I have that opportunity

• 13:53Speaker 01

  to break a world record or to win a world championship, like that's what I do best.

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's so much in everything you just said about the nutrition stuff and the blood work, also the confidence in your race strategy and how you think about pace. And I want to get into all of that. But let's talk about you growing up in Oklahoma. Your father and your grandfather were both basketball players at University of Oklahoma. And there's this sort of legendary story out there about when you're seven years old and you're shooting free throws for like hours and hours and hours without water. Like, this is deeply woven into like your DNA, like this idea of persistence and hard work and determination and athletic prowess.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I I got it from my dad and my grandpa. And, you know, there's four kids in my family. And of all the kids, I was the one that was athletic and really inspired to be like my grandpa and my dad. And and our mom is also a great athlete as well. She was a really good swimmer and golfer. And I was just telling my friend Shannon last night, I was like, the the first sport I learned how to play was actually golf. And we lived out in the country and I'm the type of person that's pretty OCD. I mean, I grew up, you know, obviously playing basketball, dribbling in our dribbling, shooting the ball in the driveway, but golf was actually the sport that I first learned from my parents.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And I used to hit golf balls like just relentlessly like out into the field. And then I would go out there with a bucket and, you know, grab all these balls. But I mean, I wanted to be like my dad and my grandpa and I, because I'm built like them. I'm tall and lean and yeah, I've just got the athletic genes. And my dad, my dad was always like, oh, you know, we played, we played basketball for six hours without water. And you know, you don't want to tell your-

• 15:49Rich Roll?

  You're like, I could do that.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. In my mind, like I had it in my mind that I had to push myself like they did without water. And I mean, I would do that. It's not like they forced me to do it. I just thought that's what I had to do. And so I'd be practicing in the driveway until I'm blacking out. And then I would run inside and my mom would have a big bowl of sweet tea and make some iced sweet tea and like have a sandwich and soup and pickles. And I would get energized and I would go back out and I'd keep practicing. And so, you know, I was, it was like I was training for ultras without even realizing it.

• 16:29Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And it sounds like it was all very self motivated. I mean, your father and your grandfather were examples, but, but what I didn't hear is you say they were pushing you, like this was coming from within you.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I, I was just relentless. I just had drive, like I was competitive. I was driven. I used to play basketball with the boys in our neighborhood and, and even at school, I played with the boys. And in fact, one of, one of my childhood friends, and he remembered me running in elementary school and I totally forgot about that. But I mean, some of my childhood friends remember me, you know, playing sports with the boys and I just, I didn't even think anything of, you know, them being better than me. I just, I just grew up with this mindset of I'm going to beat the boys. I'm going to, you know, outrun them. I'm going to outplay them on the court. And yeah, that was my mindset.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And that's exactly what you're doing today, killing all the dudes. Where do you make the transition from basketball to running?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, uh, yeah, so I, I, I was a really, I was a pretty good runner in elementary school. In fact, I, I totally forget about that, but, uh, my friends bring it up. They're, we used to run, uh, the, the presidential physical fitness mile in elementary school, and I was the best girl at my school, and I, and they used to actually run the boys and the girls separate. And, and, and then I'd be having to compare my time to the boys, because none of the girls could keep up. And so, uh, I always wished I could race the boys, uh, because I think I could have, you know, run faster. And, but yeah, then in the seventh grade, uh, we had to go out for, I, I was a basketball player, and everybody

• 18:10Speaker 01

  had to go out for track, uh, for our offseason conditioning. And, and from the first day, I mean, I could just run and run and run, just relentless, like, I didn't get tired. And I remember, like, all the other girls-

• 18:23Rich Roll?

  Shocking, it's shocking to me. I mean, like, your energy is, like, off the chain.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I had so much energy, and I mean, it makes sense, because I was a point guard on the, on the court, and my strategy as a point guard was always to try and, like, run all over the place and wear out whoever was guarding me, and I knew I could outlast them. And so when I went, went out for track, it was obvious, like, from the first run, I remember running loops around the school, and the other girls would start walking, and I'm just full of energy. I just kept going. So, um, so yeah, I just, that's kind of what planted the seed in my mind, like, oh, this is really easy for me. Um, and then I went out for cross country in the eighth grade, and I remember my first cross country race, and all the other little girls looked like me. And I'm, I've always been a string bean,

• 19:12Speaker 01

  and, and, yeah, going out for cross country was like this epiphany, like, wow, I think I, I think this is what I'm supposed to do.

• 19:19Rich Roll?

  Right, this is my tribe. All these kids look like me, like, and they're into the same stuff and all of that. And that was that, from then on out.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I was hooked. I was absolutely hooked. I mean, cross country, because we, we grew up out in the country, running around the wheat fields by our house, and cross country was that same feeling. Like, I felt like cross country is what really- Really got me hooked on running and I felt like that's what I that's what I my calling is to, you know, to be a runner. And so I actually didn't get my height until I was in high school. And after I had quit basketball. And so it's really funny because, you know, I maybe I could have gone on with the basketball, like I wonder, you know, so in fact, my, my husband bought it, bought me a basketball a couple of years ago, and he had never seen me with a basketball. And

• 20:08Speaker 01

  he was just really shocked because and I hadn't even practiced or done anything in years. And my husband just saw this whole other side of me as an athlete. And, and yeah, I mean, it's, it's kind of funny to wonder, you know, what if I had gone on with the basketball?

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like some kind of sliding doors thing where had you just moved a little bit over in the other direction, you'd be playing in the WNBA right now and breaking records for, you know, I don't know, being one of the older people doing it and still killing everyone.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I could have been, I could have probably, you know, been a good rower. I probably could have been good endurance for any, any other sport, you know, that's comparable. And I mean, I learned how to row like 10 years ago, and I just easily picked it up. And I almost thought like, do I do I switch sports?

• 20:57Rich Roll?

  You could do an Ironman, your mom was a swimmer, right? There's that too.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  I wasn't really a swimmer. And I was more of a land sport athlete. But yeah, funny enough, I did not become a swimmer because I fell into a pool when I was three and I almost drowned. And I, my mom had to dive in and get me. And I was pretty traumatized from the water. And that's pretty much why I did not become a swimmer.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  That's so sad. We can work through that trauma. We can, we can unpack that here and get you back in the pool. So, so you've just surpassed your 100,000th mile of running. I don't know how you've tracked all of this going all the way back to then. I guess it's a bit of an honor system in this world of like, people who have run more than 100,000 miles. But it began back then. And You had success from the outset. I mean, what was it like in high school when you were running cross country and developing your skill?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, so when I first started tracking my mileage and was like kind of loosely back in junior high and high school and just kept a calendar and my dad is, you know, he's like a statistician and historian and he's kind of the one that planted the seed to be able to track my mileage to see what my training load is, you know, and try to figure out, you know, like not to not to increase my mileage too much and that sort of thing. So I just kind of loosely tracked it back then. And but I actually started more tracking in more detail back in 2002 when I was in college. I was in a research study at Stanford and I had to start

• 22:41Speaker 01

  tracking my mileage back then, like in more detail. And so that's when I started keeping my first proper training log. And I have all my mileage tracked since 2002.

• 22:52Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And, yeah, and I, because I'm a bit of a stats geek, which I credit to my dad. And I learned how to do spreadsheets and keeping stats, you know, with spreadsheets and like, I have all this like detailed information on like injuries and and just, yeah, like paces, everything.

• 23:13Rich Roll?

  Right, numbers geek. And I think with that, you're, I think you're the youngest to surpass 100,000 miles, right? So there's another record. There's no idea how many records you're breaking, but I love the attention to detail and the math and the statistics. I think, you know, I'm sure you get compared to Courtney Dewalter like all the time, right? And and there's so many, just in spending a few minutes with you, I can already like identify all these sort of similar personality traits, like the joyfulness, the happiness, the enthusiasm. And there is a sort of happy-go-lucky attitude. But I think what just differentiates you from her is that like attention, like the math side of you.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm a math geek. I was on the math team when I was in junior high and academic teams. And I credit my dad for being the one that, I mean, I used to help my dad with baseball cards and learning baseball stats. And so when I got into running, I'm learning running stats and, you know, times and track and field. And yeah, I'm a total like running dork. So.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  So you go on to this illustrious career on the road. I mean, you've won like 21 marathons. Is that right?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  You won comrades. That was in 2017?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, that had to be a career highlight, winning that.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I actually, after I won comrades, I thought I could retire.

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, what's left with all those thousands of people cheering you on? I mean, I can't imagine much could live up to that.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  No, I, yeah, I literally, the month after that race, I was like, I think I can retire now. And I had to reformulate my goals and I realized like, oh, there's all these world records I can go after. And, you know, that was kind of at the beginning of my ultra career and a lot of people were trying to push me into trail running. And I started getting my feet wet and doing trail running, but I really had to follow my heart. And my heart was telling me to go after the world records. So after I won comrades in June, and later in the fall is when I started setting like the 12 hour, 100 mile world records. And, and yeah, that was, you know, what started me like, yeah.

• 25:29Rich Roll?

  You're like, this is easy. This is like low hanging fruit for me. I think it's unique and interesting that you're coming into ultra running with this illustrious career on the road. So you have all this speed, right? Like a lot of people who get into ultra running don't have that type of background or that type of success in other areas of running. So you're bringing this new elite level of being able to just crush it in terms of pace. That's new. And then the question becomes, can that be extended, right? And you're proving like, actually it can. And that's the way that you train also. You're still training like an elite marathon or not like how we think about ultra distance trail runners,

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  where it's just go out and run really long as many times a week as you possibly can.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's, that's what differentiates me is that I had a marathon in career for 10 years. And I just brought my marathon training approach into ultra running and literally for my first. Hundred K, I broke my first record by Ann Tracy. And I mean, I was pretty naive. I didn't know how ultra runners train. I didn't even know who Ann Tracy was. Like, I had read about her. I guess everybody read Born to Run, and I had read that back when I was a marathoner. But I didn't really know, like, anything about the sport, how the athletes train. I just came into the sport with a marathon training approach and started breaking records. And I figured, why change what works?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  And so I've been able to go longer with marathon training and continue to break the records. And I haven't really found, you know, a limitation to the way that I train. Obviously, if I'm training for trail, I do more trail running. But I'm still, you know, that foundation of being marathon training, you know, works for, it's worked all the way up to 24 hours so far.

• 27:21Rich Roll?

  Right. And you're not doing crazy long runs. Like, your longest runs are between 18 and 22, and you only do that every couple of weeks, right?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. In fact, I was just telling my friend Shannon this morning. I was like, the longest training run I've done the past five years is 22 miles. And I, yeah, and so I told her, I was like, the only time I ever go further than that is if I race. So it's almost like the races.

• 27:47Rich Roll?

  You are racing a lot. So that is part of the training.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I just ran a 40 miler last weekend. And, you know, why do I need to do more long runs, you know, when I just ran 40 miles? So I think, you know, racing is training. And, you know, racing develops your fitness as well. And so I just really focus on recovering between my races and making sure I feel really good and do a lot of quality work, which is really important. Trying to keep in touch with my leg speed is super important. I find if I get away from my leg speed too much, that I get a little bit flat. And so, you know, coming from a short distance background, I still kind of have to tap into that.

• 28:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a couple of observations with that, just so people aren't confused. It's not like you're not training. I mean, you run twice a day, most days, right? So you're still, you're still crossing over the 100 miles a week. Mark pretty consistently, right?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I get in, you know, 100, 130 miles per week, but I do it in 12 to 13 runs a week. So, yeah, I'm just doing short, mainly short, frequent runs. And then, you know, every couple of weeks I might do a long run or I'll do a race. And but really, it's just, you know, I feel like I recover really well with my training approach. And I feel really good and energized and it makes me really feel really fresh and strong when I go into races that I'm not beat down from a lot of long runs. And yeah, in fact, when I, when I first got into the sport, I mean, I, I kind of experimented with doing, you know, 30 mile plus training runs. And I found that I just felt tired trying to do that.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  So when I went back down to shorten my long runs and went back down to only 18 to 22 mile long runs every couple of weeks, that's when I started to feel fresher.

• 29:35Rich Roll?

  Right, fresher, able to bounce back more quickly. And that way your, your training sessions are of a higher quality in general, right?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:44Rich Roll?

  Your husband Connor is here, he's your coach, he has been for a long time. I'm interested in getting like really nitty gritty and detailed about the training. Like, what is the ratio of like the easy runs to the hard tempo, speed work? Like, it appears that you train on the polarities. Either you're going really chill or you're, you know, crushing intervals at, you know, at the other end of that spectrum.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, Strava is really helpful for, for knowing kind of the stats on my training. I think that last year it said that 86% of my training was easy and considered an easy pace.

• 30:21Rich Roll?

  And what's easy?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  So for me, like, I guess on road, that would be like an eight to nine minute per mile pace. And on trail, it might be quite a bit slower. And but yeah, I mean, I'm going about 65 to 70% of max heart rate effort as my easy pace. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm doing, you know, 86% is pretty aerobic, easy, easy type of training. And then my hard days are very hard. And like, I'm, I might be doing Like, I don't know, anywhere between six to 18 miles at like a pretty hard, hard effort. And so we operate pretty much on a two week training cycle where we have short intervals, long intervals, a hill session and a progression run.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  So in between those four main workouts, it's just easy aerobic training and running twice a day. And so, yeah, being a 24 hour runner, I have to be used to training, you know, multiple times a day and being comfortable, you know, early morning or late at night. And so, yeah, I just get myself comfortable for that.

• 31:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:33Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, you like to do the evening runs, don't you?

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How much of the tempo and hard efforts are like track based or interval based, you know, in that kind of traditional track and field approach versus like, oh, I'm just going out on the road and it's going to be six miles at this level of intensity?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I guess if I'm doing 14% of my training, I mean, I do like 90 second repeats is like kind of my short sprint type workouts. I mean, that's like, I usually do it on road too. I don't do it on track. I hate the track, which is really funny. I absolutely hate the track. I don't train on the track at all. And so I do everything on road and I do like 90 second repeats, maybe like five to six minute long intervals and sometimes maybe two miles or three mile intervals, which might be like half marathon or marathon pace. And then my progression runs might be anywhere between 30 to 60 minutes.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  And where I progress it from about 80% of max heart rate effort up to 90%. And so, yeah, when I, when I race 50 miles to 100K, I equate that to about 80% of max heart rate.

• 32:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Effort. And then when I run 100 miles, it's like 75% of max heart rate. And then when you do 24 hours, that's more like a super chill, like 65 to 70% of max heart rate.

• 33:01Rich Roll?

  So. And you wear a heart rate strap, chest strap to gauge all of that and monitor it?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:08Rich Roll?

  What's your max heart rate?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, I've kind of gotten, it hasn't really dropped that much. And since I've been tested, I was tested when I was in grad school on a treadmill and figured it out. I think back then, I think it was like, maybe 198. And, yeah, I mean, like 15 years later, it's still like 1, probably about 192 to 194.

• 33:33Rich Roll?

  So, so if you're running 100 mile ultra and you're trying to keep it right at 75% of max for the whole time, that's like, what, 145 or somewhere around that, right?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, about 145 to 150. But I don't, I don't wear my heart rate strap during the race. And I just practice it in training and get a feel for the effort that I want to go at. And then when I do the race, it's all just effort based. And, and then eventually, like, you know, 80 miles into the race is in my mind.

• 34:04Rich Roll?

  Forget that, and then you just go?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just ditch it and just run as hard as I can, yeah.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  Do you do proper lactate testing also?

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I haven't done that.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  For a numbers geek, I'm surprised.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  I know, I know. But funny enough, like, my research that I did as an undergrad was blood lactate testing with strength training. And so I got, I got familiar with blood lactate testing with strength training. I've actually never done it on myself, but when I do my heart rate based progression runs, I push it up to the point where I start to fill my blood lactate and know what my heart rate is for that. And then I train so that my heart rate is just below that, so that I, you know, I'm training my blood lactate threshold, so.

• 34:49Rich Roll?

  Right, so you have this massive aerobic capacity where you can train and race at 75 to 80% of max heart rate without creeping into that anaerobic zone. But it would be cool, you should get, it would be amazing to look at that graph and to see where it is exactly and then track it over time. Because I think what's really interesting about you now being 40 and being this masters athlete. And somebody who's entered the sport with a huge amount of speed, obviously, as we get older, the speed becomes harder to hold on to. And that's like your secret weapon right now. So it's like double down on that. How can I leverage this speed and, you know, blow the lid on all these world records. But at the same time, what's exciting is that as that

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  speed will naturally wither with age, just no matter what you do, you have this whole realm of continuing to be able to develop your aerobic capacity as an endurance athlete, right?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Rich Roll?

  Which is sort of like with you doing the shorter stuff and not doing the longer stuff, I feel like there's a lot of room to grow there that will serve you well as you kind of continue along.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I feel like definitely I'm physically stronger since I've gotten older. And I know that because when I start to do like these, these progression runs, and you know, starting at like my 100 mile effort, like 75%, working up to 80, 90%, my pace is faster and it feels easier. And I like the things I'm doing now, I couldn't do five years ago. I've just got this strength, this physical strength that I didn't have. And so I feel like maybe what I had in, there's kind of been this shift in like, you know, maybe I was faster, you know, 10 years ago, but I didn't have the strength. And now I'm kind of like more strength and able to hold that speed.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  So it's really interesting. I feel like I'm like in my prime right now. I've like got this really good balance for both speed and strength. And it's really more my strength that is allowing me to do amazing things.

• 36:49Rich Roll?

  Right. And you have been doing more strength work, right? Like I know you've got like a squat rack and you're kind of focused on that in a way that you didn't used to.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. We bought a squat rack a year ago. And, and I mean, that I, I'd always worked like my upper body and I, I'd always just let the training like take care of my lower body. And, and, but I, I was in a car accident three years ago and I injured my back. And I've had a lot of breakdown on the right side of my body. And I've had to drop from races because I just, my body was breaking down. And I finally said, you know, I need to, I need to work on this. I need to work on whole body strength. And so we bought the squat rack and working my back has made such a difference. Like it's just kind of unraveled all these kinks that I had developed on the right side of my body.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  And I feel that when I race, especially like later, when I'm running 100 miles. I feel it later in the race, like I feel like my form and my posture is a lot better.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  In addition to squats, what other dry land strength stuff do you do?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Yeah, I mean, we've got a gym and I have like a bench and I've really kind of, I mean, I've gone through different protocols over the years of just either doing upper body or some combo of upper body and lower body. And really I've just got it down to four main exercises that I do. And so I do the bench press and pushups and squats and deadlifts. And that's it.

• 38:19Rich Roll?

  That's it.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  That's cool. But it seems to be working, right?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  And I love this idea of racing at 75% of max heart rate. Like it's so simple. And that just then dictates your strategy. So you mentioned earlier at Jackpot and these other races, like the men dart off the starting line. And it's easy to fall into like forgetting about your race strategy. Oh my God, they're getting away. I need to like match pace. But you're like, no, this is what I'm doing. This is a long day, right? And then, you know, come eight hours into it or whatever, you start to like, you know, oh, there they are. They're falling apart and I'm still good. Just stick to what I'm doing. Because in those races, you're not really racing anyone else.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:05Rich Roll?

  You're just racing yourself, right?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:07Rich Roll?

  And to have a clear strategy that works for you and the confidence to maintain it, even when there's all this other stuff happening around you that you can't control, I think is really powerful.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Totally. I just think I have a bit of maturity in the sport that I feel like I'm a veteran now and that I can be more confident in pulling back the reins earlier in the race and trusting that I can sustain it better later in the race. And so I think it's just taken me time to get that feeling and to know that I don't have to go out with the men, that I can pull it back and kind of work more with my natural physiology. And it's been working really, really well. And even on the trails, yeah, everybody's like, well, how do you translate that effort to the trails? And I feel like I have such a good sense of what 75% effort feels like that even when I get on the trails, I can

• 39:59Speaker 01

  channel that effort. And yeah, and I just have that confidence that later in the race, I'm gonna start to gain on the men, so.

• 40:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you've been killing it on the track and on the road. And I think it's, you would agree, like, you've excelled in these road ultras and in races that are relatively flat. I mean, jackpot had 3,000 feet of elevation gain and you broke the world record. Like, what would have happened on a totally flat track?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Rich Roll?

  I guess we'll find out, because you'll no doubt do that at some point. But trails is sort of a new terrain for you to conquer, right?

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  A lot of elevation gain, a lot of technical running. Like, how are you reconfiguring your training, or maybe you're not, to figure out that equation?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I've found that I tend to do better on the trails if I'm really more focused on road and to get my turnover going. Even running this morning, I mean, I got on trails with a lot of climbing and descents and I was like, whoa. I mean, I grew up, like, just to kind of give the analogy, I grew up playing the French horn and we used to buzz into the mouthpiece. And once you put the mouthpiece on the instrument, you're just like, woo! Like just kind of like singing on the instrument and that's kind of what it feels like when I really channel a lot of my road training and my leg speed and then bring it to the trails. It's just like I'm flying uphill and downhill. And I think that really

• 41:29Speaker 01

  the key for me that I found and when I have done like kind of more technical trail races is I just have to like practice and get that that technical skill. And I've been really working on that the past year. And we lived in Arizona for a while and I was running on more like technical rocky stuff. And I feel like I kind of gained a better sense of how to control my body and my more technical terrain. And it's actually becoming more fun. Like, I think like, maybe five, six years ago, when I got into trail running, it was kind of intimidating. And now I feel like I'm kind of like getting that sense of how to control the movement of my body on technical terrain. And so, and yeah, I mean, obviously, I've been more focused on road and track stuff, but I'm really, really excited

• 42:13Speaker 01

  to get into more trail running and just see what I can do. So.

• 42:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the strength training probably is very helpful in that like sort of body stability, because now you're kind of all over the place. It's, I mean, when you're on the road or the track, it's like, it's like a metronome, right? Like, you just get into your pace and you just do your thing and you're doing these loops or whatever, and it becomes this mental game. But it's very steady state, right? Whereas in a trail, even when it's an ultra, like, you're up, you're down, you're flat, you're descending, like, your heart rate isn't going to be like, completely in the same place every time. So it's about training your body to be able to come back to baseline more quickly, or be able to bounce back and adapt to all of those different inputs.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's fun. Even, I mean, I went and ran Javelina last fall and getting back on trail and, you know, just flowing with that terrain and the technicality. I feel like I'm gaining a better sense of how to, I guess, like throttle my gears like a bike, you know, knowing when to pull back and when to push. And it's fun for me. I feel like, like, like you said, I mean, I'm used to the road and track stuff being a metronome, but I get on trail, and it's kind of this like, you know, throttling your gears and learning how to move with the terrain. And it's fun. It's beautiful. I really like the camaraderie out there, like, just, you know, going through the aid stations and seeing people and they're cheering me on and like, that really amps you up. So.

• 43:41Rich Roll?

  Are you thinking, who is your competition at Western States? Or do you not even think about that? You're just thinking about what you need to do for you?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I've really, I'm really somebody that focuses internally on my own effort and yeah, I mean, I think it's been working really well that I've been more channeling my own internal effort and then, you know, maybe catching people later in the race. And I mean, it takes confidence to be able to do that, you know, to be able to say that, okay, maybe I need to hold back earlier in the race to be stronger later in the race. And, and yeah, I mean, I think everybody's kind of known me as somebody that goes out really hard. And obviously, you know, I work at a different pace than most people. So even like me looking like I'm going out hard, I might be still pulling it back, you know, and in my mind, I'm running controlled and, you know, waiting for 80 miles or later

• 44:31Speaker 01

  in the race to, you know, really just kick it in, so.

• 44:35Rich Roll?

  How do you think about the gender gap? Because in ultra running, maybe more than almost any other sport, we're seeing the women excel at a level in terms, in comparison, like in this ratio to men's performances, that I think is super fascinating.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:53Rich Roll?

  Like endurance capacity of the female body, particularly as we get older, the proof is in the pudding. Like you're, you're matching stride for stride with the guys, if not beating them outright. I mean, Harvey Lewis is one of the best ultra runners in the world and you just beat him in a 40 miler last week. Like, it's crazy, right? And I think when you look at world record comparisons between men and women, I don't know how it breaks down in terms of that ratio, but it's much slimmer in ultra running, right? Like your 100 mile world record compared to the men's, it's not, you know, they're not going that much faster than you.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that was the thing that was really interesting. It seemed like the longer I went, that the closer the gap got between me and the men's world records. And, and it's funny because now the men's world records have been raised by Alexander Sorokin.

• 45:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that, that Lithuanian guy.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I think I was running, and I think I was at like 9.4% off the men's 100 mile world record. And then he's taken it to

• 45:56Rich Roll?

  He crushed it.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  He's taken it to a whole other level.

• 45:59Rich Roll?

  But that's the way it's supposed to be. Now you have something more to chase.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. I feel like, I mean, I'm inspired by what he's doing. And it actually motivates me thinking, okay, maybe I need to really step up my game for 100 miles.

• 46:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What did he do? 1141 or something like that? What was his?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. I think he did like 1051.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah. 1051. Those are, so he's running 631 miles.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's amazing. And I mean, the record before he started breaking it was by Zach Bitter. I think he'd run like 1119.

• 46:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  So, I mean, he's almost improved it by 30 minutes. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I need to get on a track and improve my world records. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm super, it's super cool to see. I mean, I was doing it, you know, setting world records. And then Zach Bitter did it. And then now Sorokin's doing it. I mean, we just keep raising the bar. And it's super cool.

• 46:54Rich Roll?

  But I think in, on the right conditions, you could break 12 hours.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:00Rich Roll?

  Don't you think?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I, I think I can. And John Olson, he was on the 24 hour team. So, John Olson, I think I surpassed John Olson for 24 hours. And he's run 1159 for 100 miles. So that kind of puts me in the ballpark of like, could I run 1150 something for 100 miles? But it's going to take like the right conditions and, you know, being, probably being on a track and just being really dialed in for that. So.

• 47:31Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  I want to go back to this nutrition piece. Cause you mentioned getting blood work and having some indications that you needed to make some corrections. I don't want to just blow past that because I think it's really interesting. So tell me more about how you were feeling. You get this blood test, you get these results and kind of what happened.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  It was pretty shocking. I mean, you hear of endurance athletes getting anemia and having low iron, and I found out I had the opposite problem. So I had high iron. And I think the thing is, like, a lot of athletes think that they just have to test their ferritin. And I ended up having a full iron panel done with inside tracker. And all these iron markers were like, way off the charts. And I was just shocked, because here I've been checking my ferritin for many years, and it's always been like, kind of in the normal range. And then I go and get all these other iron markers tested, and they're like, off the charts. And it totally made sense to me, because here, I was just having trouble, like, I

• 48:39Speaker 01

  almost thought I was anemic. I felt like I was having symptoms that mimicked anemia, because I was really tired in my training. And I'm trying to take more iron, thinking that I'm anemic, and then find out that I ended up having high iron. And so it was just really shocking. And I found that it's actually hard to get your iron down.

• 48:59Rich Roll?

  Right. You can supplement to boost it, but how do you lower it if it's high, without, like, bloodletting or donating blood, right?

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, your body recycles iron. From what I've learned, is your body's recycling iron. So your body actually holds on to iron pretty well. And so I've had to, like, work with a dietitian with kind of these quirky, like, balancing my copper and my magnesium, and like, because it all kind of interplays together. But I've been having a lot of blood taken out, like, blood draws for blood tests the past year. And, you know, if I wasn't an endurance athlete, I would probably be donating blood, like, a pint of blood, to try and get my iron down, because that's really the solution to really get

• 49:49Speaker 01

  it down. But being an endurance athlete, if I had a pint of blood taken out, who knows how it would impact my recovery, so.

• 49:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So. It's interesting, you're using InsideTracker. I just started using it and we're working with them on the podcast. And I just got my blood results back and my ferritin was low, but my iron was high. I don't know what that means. And I was like, I need to figure out what that means exactly. How can my iron be high and my ferritin levels be on the lower side?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I've actually asked my dietitian about that. I'm like, why is all my markers high? And then some people are like low, but then still like transparent saturation or whatever could be high. And she says it's like iron dysregulation that I guess like the body could be under a lot of stress. And so for some reason, like it just causes like this imbalance of the markers. So yeah, I would suggest working with a dietitian because they're kind of the brains to know what to do. So

• 50:48Rich Roll?

  But it is unusual that you have these high ferritin levels. What causes that? How could you, was it because you were supplementing, thinking you were low? Or what contributed to your iron levels being so high?

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I actually had the genetics test done for hemochromatosis and I don't have the genetics. But apparently my body just naturally like really absorbs and holds on to iron. And so when we were living in Colorado, I was supplementing with iron, thinking that that was the sensible thing to do. And because I learned since then that my body like retains iron really well, that I started getting really tired, living in Colorado. And that was when I, I thought, you know, like, is my body just not doing well? Like being at high altitude?

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  Well, the altitude must have had some impact on it as well, because it's telling your body, like, we need more red blood cells, hold on to the, the iron is what captures the oxygen. So

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was really interesting, living in Colorado and feeling like something is, my body is just off. And I thought I needed more iron and I'm trying to supplement with more iron, not knowing that my body holds on to iron really well. And so I was just making the problem worse without knowing it. And so we ended up deciding to move back down to lower altitude, thinking, well, the, the high altitude isn't working for me. But the funny thing is, like, if I, if I'd been living at high altitude and not supplementing with iron, I probably would have been okay, because it probably would have helped to better regulate my iron and keep my blood values down. And I probably would have felt fine. But the fact that I was supplementing with iron, when my body didn't need it, that it just

• 52:34Speaker 01

  went, like, just crazy. So.

• 52:37Rich Roll?

  And how long has it taken to get it back to normal?

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, I've been on this special diet for a year. And some of my iron markers are still a little bit high, but they've gotten down. And, but I'm just going by how I feel. I felt so much better since I've been working with this special diet and having, like, these minimal blood draws done. So.

• 52:59Rich Roll?

  And what is the diet specifically? What does it look like?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's kind of quirky. I don't know how to describe what I'm doing. It's called the Root Cause Protocol. And so I'm supposed to rebalance, like, it's supposed to, like, taking in more copper and trying to get my copper up. And, yeah, and I've been taking a lot of magnesium, because my magnesium was low as well. And so, I guess, if you, if you wanted to know, like, the chemistry, you know, you're working with all these cations, these two, two plus cations, because iron is a two plus cation. And so you're trying to rebalance and restrict the iron absorption by taking in more of the other cation, the two plus cations. So.

• 53:44Rich Roll?

  Right. I don't even, what does that mean?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, the chemistry. I know. I like, yeah.

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  And so what foods are high in copper? Like, do you supplement with that? Or is that just in the choices of foods that are on your plate?

• 53:56Speaker 01

  And yeah, I kind of like leaving that up to the dietitian. But I mean, I'm taking a lot of nuts. There's a lot of different nuts that I'm taking. And there's like bee pollen. And I'm taking mineral drops and that have like boron in them and a bunch of different things. And yeah, it's kind of quirky. I don't really know. I'm taking like a lot of sodium, which is also a two plus cation. And so it's kind of this quirky balance that is supposed to rebalance my minerals. And I'm just, I'm just working with it.

• 54:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I got it. And this also affects how you fuel during races, right? You're taking like mineral drops in the middle of a race. So tell me about how you think about race nutrition and how that works.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So one of the symptoms of, I think of the whole iron overload is I started having GI issues. And even going back to the 24 hour world championship back in 2019. And so I think like when you have a lot of iron in your body, it causes oxidative stress. And so it was kind of stressing my gut. It was stressing like, just like a lot of, I was having a lot of weird health issues. And so, and since we've been able to rebalance my, my minerals and my iron and, and taking mineral drops during races, like I stopped having my gut problems. And it's been amazing. And because I'm somebody that has generally not had gut problems during races. I'm somebody that has a bit of an iron gut.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  So for me to be getting gut problems during races was really unusual. And so, yeah, since we've changed my diet and I'm putting like mineral drops in my water during races, like I feel like a million bucks.

• 55:35Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's, that's super interesting.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Rich Roll?

  Cause I haven't really heard a story like that before. But I think that's fascinating. It would be good to see like a full study on what exactly it is that, that you're doing. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in that.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm actually working with Inside Tracker and they're tracking my blood markers leading up to Western States. And so, so yeah, and I've had a lot of blood work the whole past year. And, and even looking at things like vitamin A, vitamin D, and just all these biomarkers. And so, and it's really interesting. I mean, I just know that I feel better. And I feel like, you know, regardless of what the biomarkers say, I know that I feel better. And I obviously like, you know, breaking world records.

• 56:20Rich Roll?

  You definitely have a lot of energy. So something is going, is going well. And what is the calorie, fueling and electrolyte process when you're racing? Like, do you, you do increment, like every 30 minutes, you take X, Y and Z? Like, what is that specifically?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and obviously, working for 24 hours and under, like, I can get by pretty much mostly on gels and water and sports drink. And, and I only deviate from that when I feel like I need something different. So, and everybody knows the story about me taking like tacos and burritos when I've done my 24 hour races. And, but, but yeah, I mean, I can, even for my 100 mile world records, I mean, every 30 minutes, I was taking a gel with water and then just sipping sports drink. And the only thing that I deviated was, and like 70 miles into the race, I felt like I wanted something different. And I stopped for 15 seconds and shotgunned a non-alcoholic beer.

• 57:20Rich Roll?

  I had read that. That's so funny. And you, you're, I mean, you're, you like your beers, but you got, you kind of got off the alcoholic beer because of how that increases iron absorption, right?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. When I started learning, you know, about my high iron and trying to, trying to learn, like, what do I need to do differently? And, and, and yeah, I mean, me and my husband are, you know, beer connoisseurs. We love our beer. I mean, we drink, in fact, we used to home brew beer. And so, and I mean, we, we just, we love beer. But it actually was not that difficult to get off of, you know, stop drinking our regular IPAs every night for dinner. Cause we ended up switching to non-alcoholic beer. And, and yeah, I mean, there's some really great non-alcoholic beers out there. So if anybody's wanting to get off of alcohol, that, I mean, there's some great non-alcoholic options out there.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. And what does recovery look like? You mentioned that you're really prioritizing that these days. So what does that mean?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've definitely seen a change in my sleep, especially with the magnesium. And I've kind of experimented with my magnesium. And I think I'm taking like 700 milligrams a day by supplement, which is quite a bit.

• 58:35Rich Roll?

  Which supplement do you use, the Calm, or what, what, what is the one specifically it used?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there, there's like two different magnesium ones I use. They're by Jigsaw Health. I think it's magnesium malate and Mag Soothe. And then I take the mineral drops as well. So I'm taking something like 300 milligrams of the mineral drops. And then I'm taking like another 200 of magnesium malate. I think that's right. Yeah, something like that. And that comes out to like 700 milligrams of magnesium. And I've seen, as I increase my magnesium drops, that I've seen like a change in my sleep. And so that was, that's been huge. Like, I feel like I'm recovering so much better since I've got my sleep. I, I was averaging like seven hours at night.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  And now I'm like up to eight hours and then taking a two hour nap during the day.

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's huge. Do you take the magnesium at night, or it doesn't matter when you take it during the day?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I usually take the magnesium malate for breakfast and lunch. And then take the Mag Soothe at nighttime. And then the mineral drops, I take it in my water and my coffee, like throughout the day. And so, so I think it just, it just, I'm just pretty much taking it all day. And, and then I also, when I go do races, I'm taking mineral drops during the races as well.

• 59:57Rich Roll?

  When you did Inside Tracker, was your magnesium levels low, or no?

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so trying to get my magnesium up has been really challenging. And because it was really low on Inside Tracker. And but it has, it has gone up. And, and I know like just based on how I feel and how I'm sleeping, like, and I feel a difference in my muscles when I run. And that, you know, whatever, even if the biomarkers aren't necessarily like up to where they should be, I just know that the way I feel is so much better, so.

• 1:00:28Rich Roll?

  Right, so nine hours of sleep a night, plus two hour nap?

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  Are you wearing a sleep tracker? Do you do like Oura Ring or the Whoop or anything like that?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've kind of, I've, so I have Chorus, the Chorus Watch and I track like my deep sleep. And I mean, I'm getting like two to two and a half hours of deep sleep a night.

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's good.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, really good sleep and, and I mean, it's, it's incredible. And it's really interesting to see like after races and my sleep might be off for like a week or so. And but then I go back into like this really deep sleep and I'm just like super like charged and feeling good, so.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  How long does it take you to bounce back from these races?

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, it's been incredible. Like I feel like since I've changed my diet, like I've almost like rolled the clock back 10 years that, and I mean, I used to run marathons back to back and I could do them like a week apart or two weeks apart. And now I'm like recovering from ultras, like with the same recovery powers. And I mean, I just did like a track ultra, ran a couple of weeks ago and then came back and did a 40 miler and broke the course records there. And but yeah, I mean, whatever I'm doing, I really think like just the recovery, the sleep aspect has made a huge difference. And, oh, I forgot to mention, I'm also taking Epsom salt baths.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  And, and so that was, that was something that I've just been doing the past couple of weeks that my dietitian recommended. And I did that after my past two races and it's like supercharging me.

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  So that's like mineral absorption through the skin.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Rich Roll?

  Basically.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  And you do like the

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Recovery boots?

• 1:02:11Rich Roll?

  The Normatec boots, yeah.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Rich Roll?

  Do you use those too?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Yeah, I have the Rapid Reboot Recovery Boots. And I've had those for over five years and, and the first time I knew that they made a difference was we had traveled to New Zealand with them. And to go run the Terreware Ultra Marathon and it was the first time after a race I did not have ankle swelling after the race. And so I was kind of like hooked on the recovery boots after that.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:02:47Rich Roll?

  How does it work being married to your coach?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  I think it's okay. I think it's okay.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Connor's giving a thumbs up. You know, he's a thumbs down now.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Rich Roll?

  I mean, it has to be like, it has to be challenging at times, right? Like, there's no separation between work and home. I mean, running is your life for both of you guys. Obviously, you're both very invested in each other's success and happiness. But, you know, it's gotta be challenging also to not have like, somebody outside of the home, where you keep it a little bit separate. But I don't know, maybe you've never, you've never really known anything different, right? You guys have been together for a really long time.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a different bird. I'm somebody that'll go run 20 miles at midnight. And if I had another coach, they wouldn't understand me. They wouldn't understand my psyche. And I mean, I'm a different bird. I like to run late at night. And I really don't set any limits on the day and when I run. And, I mean, if I, if I could, I would run all day. I would run all day. I'd run twice a day. So Connor kind of understands my psyche and he's with me every day. He knows what my energy, my mood is like. And, you know, I think about like, 10 years ago, when I was, I was getting ready to go run a marathon up in Canada, and I was crawling to the bathroom, like, on the floor.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  And I had torn my plantar fascia. And like, in my mind, it wasn't that bad. And here I am crawling on the floor and Connor's like, "Do you think you should go run a marathon?"

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  And, yeah, I mean, I, like, he's the only one that really understands my psyche. And he knows to like, pull back the reins on me, like, when I'm, like, I'm obviously exhausted or injured or complaining. I'm somebody that doesn't really complain about body issues. And so if I do complain about something, that's like, a red flag to him.

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Rich Roll?

  And how much of it is your intuition versus a prescription? Like, "Okay, this week, these are the workouts we're doing." Or "Today, we're doing this." And you're like, "Yeah, but I just want to go run a marathon at midnight," or whatever it is. What is the push-pull? How locked in is it? Or does it just change and it's very much like day-to-day? Like, okay, here's what I think you should do today. Or you look a little tired today, maybe let's back off. And when Connor says, "This is what you need to do," is that what you end up doing? Or do you say, "Yeah, but I feel like doing this"? What does that tension or relationship or communication look like?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when he first started coaching me, like 15, was it 2004? 18 years ago or so, he used to just tell me what to do and I just did it without even thinking about what I was doing. And so about 2009, he started letting me have feedback on what I felt like doing. And so that was when the magic started to come out. I felt like when I started to tune in with, like, what do I feel like doing? What does my body and my mind feel like doing? Like, that was what elevated me to a whole other level. And so I think we kind of have that day-to-day dynamic that we kind of assess, like, how I'm feeling, what the weather's like.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  And sometimes I have other commitments for the day and maybe I had a workout planned. And just based on all those factors, I might move a workout to a different day or alter the workout. And so I feel like the only thing that's really changed, maybe as I've gotten older, is I'm kind of more in tune with, sometimes I don't do a hard workout. Like, maybe I'll only do one hard workout a week. Like, I'm kind of working more with my body. And rather than being strict on having two hard workouts a week, sometimes I only do one workout a week if I'm feeling more tired. So I feel like I'm kind of more in tune with my body and not feeling like I have to push it all the time. That I just really want to feel good. I want to be healthy.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  I want to toe the line for a race, like, feeling really energized and really good, so.

• 1:06:55Rich Roll?

  And you mentioned spreadsheets. So are you still keeping spreadsheets? And, and what, what can be found on those spreadsheets? Like, what are you tracking specifically that you're interested in watching?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And why I keep Strava. So most of my training is like kept on Strava. But for the spreadsheets, I just keep track of my mileage and any sort of injuries or problems I've had through the year. And so it's not too much detail on the spreadsheets. I keep it pretty minimal. But it's, it's incredible to look at because, I mean, I'm going back, you know, to the seventh grade and I've kept all these like details of like body issues. And yeah, I mean, just it's this whole evolution of my running career. And but yeah, I mean, thank goodness for Strava.

• 1:07:39Rich Roll?

  Do you use Training Peaks or any other kind of database management? Or you just use Strava?

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I've got my Coros watch, which keeps a lot of stats and, you know, sleep and, and those sort of things as well. So I kind of look at what Coros is tracking along with Strava. And but, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty incredible. Like, there's so much data that, that, you know, is out there now. And I don't even know how to digest all of it. But at the same time, I am a bit of a data geek.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  You're the math person.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about the mindset side of things. Obviously, when you're going 100 miles or 24 hours, everybody wants to know, you know, what are you thinking the whole time? Or when you feel like quitting, what do you tell yourself? Like, how does all of that work for you?

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Gosh, I mean, there's a lot of time to think when you're out there. I'm somebody that, like I said, I trained, you know, for 75% of effort for 100 miles. I, for 24 hours, I'm training for 65 to 70% effort, which is like an easy run pace. So I'm really just channeling my training and like how I felt in my training and running at 75%, running at 65%. And I really just focus on that and that feeling and that effort. And, and obviously, I'm somebody, I'm somebody that like is able to tune out pain and to tune out the fatigue that I'm feeling. But I'm also able to tune in to the things when. And I need to, need to tune in, you know, keeping track of like, how do my feet feel?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  And you know, how's my gut feel? Like, do I need to change anything with my energy? And so I'm, I'm somebody that kind of like, I feel like I'm out there just kind of like meditating a bit, but I'm able to tune in when I need to tune in and, and you know, make changes when I need to make changes. So.

• 1:09:27Rich Roll?

  Are there any mantras or things that you tell yourself when it is getting really painful and you're in that pain cave dark place?

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, I, I, I, one of the funny things, uh, when I was running my hundred mile world record and, and I mean, the sun is like baking on us. I felt like it was like, uh, being like an ant with a magnifying glass on us and sitting in this bowl. And, uh, probably just after 50 miles, I was telling myself to suck it up buttercup.

• 1:10:00Rich Roll?

  Pretty straightforward.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Suck it up buttercup. I mean, that's one of my favorite. I'm kind of somebody that's like a tough love and type of person. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I'm out there and there's certain things like I, I have this mentality that I'm an animal out there and I'm chasing prey. Or I'm being chased by an animal.

• 1:10:20Rich Roll?

  Which animal are you?

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Which animal?

• 1:10:23Rich Roll?

  The honey badger? Like what is it? What specific animal are you?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  I saw, I, yeah, I saw the, uh, your, your interview with Harvey. I think he said he was channeling the honey badger. Uh, I mean, I think I'm a lion. I think I'm a lion, especially with my hair.

• 1:10:38Rich Roll?

  You always wear your hair down, don't you?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I do. And I feel like, I literally feel like I have a cape on my head when I run. Like it feels like I'm flying out there and like my, uh, my hair just like kind of stimulates me in such a way that I feel like free and liberated. Uh, but I feel like I'm an animal out there, like chasing prey. And, and I mean, that's like the mindset that I have, even like racing Harvey here last weekend. And I felt like I was being chased by an animal and I better like, I better survive. Like, yeah. So.

• 1:11:10Rich Roll?

  Well, I have this theory. I mean, when I look at you and I'm experiencing you, you're clearly a very happy person, a very joyful person. And again, it's impossible to not compare you to.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Courtney's disposition, also a very happy, joyful person. And even like Harvey, Harvey's like, you know, he's like overflowing with like gratitude. And I think it's curious that some of the most successful ultra runners in the world have this disposition. And I have to think that there's something to that. Like, what is the relationship? Like, if you're a really happy, joyful person, on some level, what you're doing is in pursuit of that joy, right? So when it gets really hard, like, you have that, right? And that's very, that is in contrast to this idea that I think is out there that ultra running is hard and you gotta be tough. And it's sort of this alpha Navy SEAL attitude of like tackling obstacles and all of that.

• 1:12:08Rich Roll?

  Because it's, it's like, like you're holding it a little bit lighter, right? Like, oh, this is fun. And like, let's remember that this is fun, you know? When it's really dark. And I think there's a, there's a real strength there. It would be interesting to like, study all the elite ultra runners from that perspective of joy, happiness, gratitude, because I see it everywhere I look.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think I got it from my parents. And I've seen my parents have their own health issues and struggles that they go through. And I think about my mom, she had like shoulder surgery and she had to go through PT for many months. And I've never seen my mom like, I mean, my mom is like this, you know, Betty Crocker type that, you know, like cooks and, you know, she's, she's at home and she's like, you know, she goes hardcore. She goes hardcore with her PT and she's so positive. And she, you know, she was motivated, she's positive. And I think I got that from my parents. I mean, growing up playing sports and my parents were just such positive people, like just super motivating and like believed in me.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  And I think like, I got it from my parents. Yeah.

• 1:13:17Rich Roll?

  And you guys lost your home, right? Growing up?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Rich Roll?

  To a tornado?

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  We did, we did. And yeah, that happened my junior year of high school. And it actually happened a couple of days after prom. And so I'd had my prom dress hanging on my bathroom door. And then the tornado happened on a Monday and I remember I'd gone to lunch with my friends that day. And it was this perfect sunny day. And then, yeah, the tornado came and my dad, so my mom was down in Norman taking care of my grandpa at the time. And so my dad, I'd like gotten out of the shower and my dad was like, hey, there's a tornado coming. And you know, we get tornadoes all the time in Oklahoma. You don't think really anything of it. You're just like, okay, you know, I gotta go take shelter. There's a tornado coming.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  And so I just grabbed my book bag and went with my dad and we drove down to Norman to be with my dad, my mom and my grandpa. And I'm watching the TV and like, here's this tornado coming through Oklahoma City and you know, telling us the streets that it's going through. And I mean, we're like, oh my gosh, that's where we live. And so, yeah, it just ripped like right through where my high school was, the neighborhood to the south. It lived, it ripped like right where we lived, which is right across the street from the high school. But yeah, it was pretty traumatizing at the time. And yeah.

• 1:14:43Rich Roll?

  So your whole house was gone?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and so we actually, so what had happened was we, we, we lived down in Dunkin, Oklahoma. And we had just moved up to the city like a couple of months before because my dad had retired. And we were trying to decide like where to live in South Oklahoma City. And so we were either gonna live like across the street from the high school or we were gonna live in another neighborhood. Both places got hit by the tornado. And so, and so we ended up, we had an apartment at the time because my parents were trying to sell their house. And so the tornado hit the apartment where we were staying at. And, and so, I mean, it just, there were like four people where we lived in that vicinity that died.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  And so, I mean, I feel so blessed that my dad had loaded me up. The car to go down to Norman and you know, when we got, when we were able to get back up there and you know, I mean, it's just concrete slabs. Up there. And so, um, it was really shocking. I mean, at the time you're thinking, oh my gosh, like, you know, I can't believe this happened. And but at the same time, like, I felt so grateful for my life and you know, what my, what my dad had done, you know, to, to load us up. And, um, and yeah, I mean, I just felt like this appreciation for like, I'm alive, like I can still run. I still have my

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  running talent and, and, and it kind of like made me like become more spiritual with myself. And I felt like, like I started running long on Sunday as a way to like celebrate my life and like my running talent. And, and yeah, and that really like, kind of, it kind of put me back in touch with my, myself and like being appreciative of my life. So.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  That gratitude thing. Yeah. And now you're back there.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Rich Roll?

  Like you've been, you've kind of been nomadic, right? You lived in, you were in Colorado, you were in Tucson. Now you're back in.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Back in Oklahoma. Love it.

• 1:16:38Rich Roll?

  On the, on the tornado watch. Has there been any since you've been back? It's pretty recent, right?

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Rich Roll?

  You moved back there pretty recently.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we just moved back here a couple of months ago and we have a storm shelter in our house. So in fact, I've joked, I've thought about like.

• 1:16:55Rich Roll?

  New for Connor, right? Like not, not used to like tornadoes. Yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I've, yeah, it's, I haven't even gotten down in there yet to see what the storm shelter's like, but we have one in our garage. So, um, so yeah, you got to get underground if a tornado is coming because it's, yeah, just completely flattens your house. And but yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm from Oklahoma. I'm a native Oklahoman. My parents live there. My two sisters live there. And, and I just, I feel like I'm reconnecting like with my roots as a runner and you know, where I'm from. So.

• 1:17:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. But it's pretty flat there, right? Like you're not getting a lot of hill work for western states.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, uh, so the way that I was able to train and to win the comrades marathon was I went down to Mount Scott, which is like our only like mountain in Oklahoma.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Like 1500 feet high or something?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it goes up to like 2000 feet or something like that. It's like three, just under three miles to go up to about 2000 feet. And it's a pretty steep grade. And like, I think it goes maybe from like 8% up to 20% or so. But yeah, that's basically how I trained to win the comrades uphill course was driving down to Mount Scott and doing repeats up and down the mountain. And then I would do short repeats at the bottom as well. And so that was how I trained. That was how I hill trained for comrades. And there's also trellis down there to get on. I really like the trellis, so.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  And now is that what you're doing for Western States? Or what's the, what's the prep like? Like this is the big goal.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Rich Roll?

  It's coming up. When is it in July?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the end of June.

• 1:18:33Rich Roll?

  End of June, okay.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  So where are we at? And what are you focused on? Like this is, this is the thing, right? Like you've got all these world records, but like it's all about Western States.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, now I'm trying to bring it to the trellis. So I'm super fun. And I mean, I, I'm gonna do the Western States Training Camp coming up here in a couple of weeks, which is something I haven't done before. And I mean, I've run, I ran Western States last year. And so I've kind of got like the mental picture of what it's like and, and you know, the different, there's, it's, you know, you kind of have to think of it in segments because there's so many different parts and, and kind of how you break it down. And I feel like since I've run the whole course, I can like mentally process that better and how to prepare for it. And but yeah, I'm planning to go out to the, the training camp and get on the course more

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  and just kind of get dialed in with that flow and that, that connection of my body with the course. And but yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, you kind of just try and put it all together on race day and, and you know, hope that you've like, you know, dialed in all the different components.

• 1:19:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You seem really clear on, on your strengths. What do you think are your weaknesses or the thing, the areas that, that really need a little bit more focus?

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, definitely one of the things was my body breaking down. And like I've had to drop from races because I had hamstring issues or just my body breaking down. And so I've spent, you know, the past year really like getting in the gym and really working on my full body strength so that I'm not breaking down. And I felt like even last year when I ran Western States, even though I had this iron issue, my body wasn't breaking down. Like I was physically strong because I'd been working more in the gym. And so I felt like that was the first piece of the puzzle was to get my body physically stronger. So I'm not breaking down the race. And then the whole iron issue was the other

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  thing that I needed to work on. I'm somebody that has the opposite problem than most people. Like I have to, I, you know, I'm having to give my blood away rather than trying to build it up. So, um, so yeah, I mean, I've really worked on that, just trying to get my, my biomarkers more balanced again.

• 1:20:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I feel like you're on top of that, right? It's like, okay, that was a weakness. I've dealt with that.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:20:52Rich Roll?

  What's the next weakness that I need to look at?

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:56Rich Roll?

  You're like, I'm good. I'm strong. I'm like, ready to go.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  I feel pretty good. Yeah. I mean, right now, like, because I've been so focused on road stuff and track running, like I'm trying to get, I'm trying to translate it to the trails right now and kind of get my, my flow dialed in to be on trails. And I mean, I feel great when I've, the past couple of weeks that I've gotten on trails, I'm like, man, I feel great. Like, I feel like, I feel like damn, like flying like uphill and downhill. And I feel like, I feel so much more comfortable with my technical skills than I did, um, you know, a year, a couple of years ago. And, and yeah, obviously like, you know, for me to take on like a course like UTMB is going to be like, you know, a whole other element. But I feel like I'm somebody that can adapt, you know, I can get stronger. I can, you know,

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  improve. And I mean, it's kind of like learning how to ride a bike. And, you know, any, any athlete, you know, is that's trying to learn how to do something new. Like if you do it, you know, over and over and over again, eventually you're going to get it right. And I'm optimistic, you know, I'm optimistic that if I keep practicing and I keep working at it, like I'm finally going to get things right. So.

• 1:22:06Rich Roll?

  And how do you like to work with pacers? Do you want somebody with you as much as possible? Or you want a bump and run? Just give me the nutrition and I'm fine? Or like, how do you think about that?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not really, I don't think I want a pacer. I actually, like a year and a half ago, it was interesting, I ended up running a road 100K and had a pacer and that was kind of my first time to have a pacer. And I feel like I'm somebody that likes to get into my own head, that I don't like to be distracted, I don't like to have a whole lot of people or like outside like influence. I really need to be in my own headspace when I race. And I mean, that's kind of the, that's kind of what I'm good at, like getting in my own head when I race and really like elevating myself. And so I'm, I'm actually not going to have pacers. Like I feel, I feel pretty confident enough in my own self that I can get in my own headspace

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  and like, you know, to elevate myself like later in the race.

• 1:23:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Talk a little bit about the longer term goals. I mean, Western States is a short term goal. Like what, what's on the, what's further down the horizon in terms of things that you'd like to be able to accomplish?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so obviously I want to become more of a trail runner and I'm really motivated. I've been setting world records for, for many years now and, and I mean, there's still some more world records like in the multi-day stuff that I want to get. And I see myself evolving more into trail running and mountain running and, and I want to become the first athlete to win comrades, Western States, UTMB, because that's the triple crown of ultra running. And so, winning comrades is the, obviously the hardest one because it's the most competitive race to win and there's only been three Americans that have done it. So I feel like, you know, I won, I won like the pinnacle, you know, as far as comrades.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, now I've got to bring it to Western States and UTMB and, and yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun trying to, trying to, you know, achieve that. So, and but yeah, I mean, I, I feel like there's no limits on what I can do. Like if I set a goal for something like, I'm somebody that doesn't really limit myself on like, I just go after it. I just, you know, bite down and go after that goal, so.

• 1:24:18Rich Roll?

  I feel like you would really excel at Badwater.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I was actually signed up to do Badwater two years ago, and it got canceled. And so, yeah, I've been staying with my friend Shannon, who's done it like eight times. And I mean, she's all raving to me about it. And in fact, she actually did the double Badwater. She ran Badwater and then turned around and ran back to the start. So I don't know.

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  Shannon, so we should just shout her out. Like Shannon, for our griefer. She's a legend. She lives in the area. If you run trails around here, you're inevitably going to bump into her. She's amazing. And yeah, was she the first to do the double? Or I can't remember. It was a while ago when she did it, but it's like unbelievable.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, she was talking about how tired she was when she finished, and she turned around and ran it all the way back. I mean, that's so mental. Like, it's incredible. Yeah.

• 1:25:13Rich Roll?

  What about a transcontinental run?

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've got a long list of things I want to do. I mean, we're watching Michael Wardian right now do a transcon. And I mean, that stuff just totally blows my mind. Like, I feel like I feel like I'm somebody that, I mean, I find joy in running, period. And to run across America, I would just absolutely love it. I mean, it's, it would be something completely new, because you would see the entire country by foot. And I think I would just love that. I think I would just like be taking it in every day, like be in a new place and knowing, you know, where my legs are taking me. So.

• 1:25:51Rich Roll?

  What's the women's record for that?

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't really know what that is. I think I think Pete Kostelnik holds a men's record. And I've run a little bit further than him for 24 hours. So I think I would be trying to go for his record. So.

• 1:26:07Rich Roll?

  That would be unbelievable if you broke the world record for men and women doing that.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah.

• 1:26:16Rich Roll?

  And then there's all these FKTs, right? Like you could, I mean, there's no limit.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Rich Roll?

  It's just a question of like where you want to place your attention. And I think you even mentioned the 3100.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  Uh, in Queens.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:29Rich Roll?

  Which is a wild one.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  That, I mean, that is just so, that blows my mind. I mean, 3100 miles, like around, like, I think it's like a half mile.

• 1:26:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Block. And I mean, how do you stay motivated? How do you find joy, you know, when it's boring? And I, I think I'm somebody that like, I mean, I like to use the energy around me when I'm in races. And, and you kind of have to, you have to break it down. Like, how do you eat an elephant? You eat an elephant one bite at a time. And so, and I've learned, like, when I run races, like, I need to, I need to, you know, track the mileage and I need to break down the, how, how am I going to eat the elephant?

• 1:27:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  And, and so, I mean, that's something I think about in races, like, you know, whether I'm going 100 miles, 24 hours, 3100 miles, like, how do you break down eating the elephant? So.

• 1:27:19Rich Roll?

  Well, you're no stranger to running around in circles. So you're just, you're running around in a circle. The interesting thing with that one is the course closes at night. So you go to bed and it becomes like a job for the summer. You just wake up and between eight and five or whatever, eight and eight or whatever the hours are, you just go around the loop and try to get as many miles as you can. There's a documentary about it that my friend, Sanjay Raval made. I don't know if you've seen it.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  Um, and it's so interesting, the people that excel in that race are, are not the people, like, they don't look like runners. They're like average people with, you know, all different kinds of jobs. Um, and it's, and it really shows you like, oh, this is, this is about mental fortitude. This is about like something more than athletic capacity. This is about like.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Spiritual.

• 1:28:06Rich Roll?

  A connection to something beyond, like, those are the people that seem to, you know, excel.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I, I feel that. I feel a spiritual connection. When I go for world records, I feel like I'm tapping into something really special inside of me. And I reach a point where I like transcend and like, it's almost like my head starts to float off of my body. And I think when, and when you do something like that, you really have to tap into that spiritual energy inside of you to, to keep going and to, to complete it. Cause it's just something that just like, you know, it's just like beyond like what you think is possible.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  Tell me more about that.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like I've always had this ability to tap into this this extra energy inside of me. And I like, I remember when I set my 50 mile world best back in 2015. I think I had like, maybe it's like 12 miles to go. And I joke that it was like the hand of God came over me. And I literally felt like my head started to float on my body. And I'm just like a machine those last 12 miles. And it was kind of one of those points where I was either gonna get the record or not get the record. And I felt like I just found some sort of like spiritual connection where my body just became a machine. And it was kind of like my head was floating.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  And I felt that like many more times when I've gone for world records. I feel like even, I think about when I did my 12 hour world record, I started to feel that. I feel like I kind of just went into this like machine mode. And, and yeah, I mean, it was like, it's incredible. I just, I feel it. I feel this energy that I can tap into when I go for these amazing things, so.

• 1:29:51Rich Roll?

  Like this advanced flow state where you become this channel for something else.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I feel, I feel it like it's incredible. I like even, even racing Harvey, I mean, it was like I just, I just transcended like this last couple of miles. And I don't know how to describe it. Like I just, it's like I almost like detached a bit from, from my body and from the pain I'm feeling and I just become this machine.

• 1:30:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wild. Well, that's why you have to do the 3100. It is this self transcendent run. That's what it's called, right?

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I feel like, like that's gonna be like my finale as a runner.

• 1:30:31Rich Roll?

  How do you think about yourself as a, as a role model? Obviously, you're inspiring to everybody, but particularly to, to women, women athletes, young girls. I'm sure you have opportunities to speak with younger people. Like, how do you think about how you carry yourself? And what that means for the next generation of young athletes?

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, when I, when I'm out there and I'm going. I'm about to do something. I mean, I think about that not only the people that inspire me to do a race, I feel like every race that I do, I have somebody that is inspiring me and that I think about, like especially later in the race. But I also know that people are watching me and that I'm bringing inspiration to other people. And I feel that, I feel that during the race. I feel like, you know, I'm doing this for the world. I'm doing this to, you know, elevate the sport, to raise the bar in what women think is possible. And like, it's such a powerful thing when you're out there. I feel like it's not just me trying to reach a personal goal. I'm doing this for the sport. I'm creating history. And it

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  just like totally like elevates me like later in the race, just thinking about that.

• 1:31:42Rich Roll?

  And now being 40, you're not just breaking barriers in distance and time, you're breaking barriers in age. Like you haven't even begun to, you know, tap into what you're capable of. I'm sure you've got a whole slew of world records, you know, coming. But it's really cool because it creates this conversation around what we're capable of and what our limits are as we age. And as you redefine it, you're in equal parts inspiring young people as you are to like the older people who are, who are trying to, you know, rethink what they're capable of as we get older.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I, I think about when I reached my mid 30s, I thought I was on some sort of like downhill slope or something. And I mean, probably a lot of like marathoners and, you know, ultra athletes think that. They think that, oh, you know, it's all downhill from here. But I feel like I'm reaching my prime right now. And I mean, it's incredible because here I've been a, I've been a runner for 27 years and I'm still getting better, you know, at age 40. And, you know, I feel like I'm kind of dialing in more, like I talked about my diet and my recovery. I'm kind of dialing in more on those factors that, you know, maybe I just kind of let them slide in the past and wasn't really as dialed in on them. So I'm kind of showing like, you know, if

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  I, I'm using like more of my brain and having more wisdom and with my training and my recovery, my diet, all these things. And I, it's, it's like working.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also cool that we're in a time where, you know, somebody Who is of your age can live as a professional athlete. Like you can, you have sponsors and you can make a living and you know, do your thing. And I think that's amazing. Like that wouldn't have been possible, you know, maybe even like 10 years ago.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, I like, I mean, I've been in the sport for seven years and I've seen this whole evolution with sponsorships. And even when I, when I first got into the sport and it was, it was actually hard to get sponsorships, even being a woman. And I felt like I, I saw like more younger men getting sponsorship opportunities. And I like, here I was, I had done a lot in like just my first year as an ultra runner. And I felt like that there was kind of more of this focus on men. And it's kind of shifted now that there's so many amazing women doing things and, and sponsors have realized like, oh, you know, like we, we, we've got these amazing women that, you know, we can back.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  And I feel like there's kind of been the shift of supporting more women and more women, more athletes of, you know, all different ages as well. I mean, I'm, you know, just turned 40 and I'm a professional athlete. And then, I mean, I had a profession before I was a professional athlete that, you know, I thought I would be working in research for the rest of my life. I couldn't have imagined that I'm a professional athlete at age 40. Like I, this is just wild.

• 1:34:38Rich Roll?

  Right. Like, weren't you working in a lab in like Ann Arbor, like studying bone density or something?

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I worked at the University of Oklahoma Health Science Center. And, but I also worked at Michigan for a period back in 2016. And so, and I mean, I had a dedicated career. Like I was not expecting to become this ultra runner, this professional athlete, you know, at this age. And, and I, I had to go through a transition and trying to transition from my profession, my day job to become a professional athlete. I mean, it was like, oh my gosh, what do I do with this? And, but yeah, once I, once I had my car accident back in 2019 and, and I mean, I was driving to work that day and I felt like, it was almost like this sign from above telling me, you know, this is where it stops. Like, you know, go, go full time with your, with your running.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  And I mean, I'm grateful. I feel, I feel like I'm doing what I'm born to do as a runner and it's, it's empowering, like, you know, to be doing this. And I'm grateful for that. I want to be the best that I can be and to do everything right. So.

• 1:35:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and on a practical level, so you have your sponsors. And then do you guys also coach other people? Or like, how does it work so that all the bills get paid and you can travel? Because it's expensive to travel around and go to all these races and do all that kind of stuff.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well fortunately, I've got a lot of support from Hoka. So Hoka is my main sponsor and you know, I've got a travel budget with them. But yeah, we also coach on the side, you know, which keeps my husband busy. But yeah, I mean, we coach together and you know, that's what I'm doing a lot in my free time. You know, we're trying to work with our athletes and yeah, just communication with athletes and that sort of thing. And so yeah, I mean, we started our coaching business, you know, back when I was still working full time in research. And I mean, that was really helpful, you know, trying to transition into becoming a full-time athlete. Along with, you know, having our own business was really beneficial.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  And but I feel it's so cool for me to be able to give back my knowledge and my wisdom to the running community. And to see other athletes like succeed. And we just coached the guy that, Joe McConaughey, that just won the Cocal Dona 250. And I mean, he just crushed it here last week. And I mean, it's really cool to be able to use, you know, my experience and my wisdom to give back to other athletes. And see somebody like him, you know, just crush it.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. On that note, what do you see like a lot of people doing wrong? Or what are common mistakes that the amateur athlete makes when they're participating in these longer races?

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, I would say as far as mistakes that athletes make. I would say too many athletes run their easy days too fast. And so we really have to pull back the reins on the athletes that we coach. And that people don't know how to run easy, they don't know how to run relaxed.

• 1:37:36Rich Roll?

  Well, Strava doesn't help with that. You know, cause every time you're out there, you're like, what's this gonna look like on Strava? I don't want to be judged for running slow. Like, I don't think it's good for that.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think it turns people into workout champs. And I mean, I, I look at Strava sometimes and I'm like, I'm like, oh my gosh, like it's mind boggling. Some of the workouts that people are doing and, and their easy days are hard. Like every day is like hard. They don't have any concept of pulling back the reins and running easy on their easy days, hard on their hard days. It seems like every day is hard. So yeah, I mean, with the athletes that we coach, you know, we're really trying to get them to pull back their pace on the easy runs. But then the other thing is, uh, we don't do back to back long runs. And we don't believe in, we think it's too much stress. And, and so when we start coaching athletes and they're like, you know, where's our 40 mile training runs?

• 1:38:27Rich Roll?

  That's a standard thing in ultra prep, like doing a long run on tired legs.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Rich Roll?

  So the back to back is a big part of that.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, even coaching Joe for, for Coca Dona, um, you know, he thought he needed to be doing a lot of vert. He needed to be doing a lot of long runs. And we just really pulled back the reins with his training. And he's the type of guy that he ran in college. So he has a lot of like natural leg speed. And so we worked more with his natural physiology and, and he thrived on that. Like, and he went into Coca Dona and he felt like he was pretty strong, like most of the race. And I think a lot of it is just that he's not overtrained. He went into the race like pretty fresh. And he had done, um, he had done a hundred K like a couple of weeks before as a race as like his last like long run. And, but then, you know, we had him come back and do a

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  speed session a couple of days after that. And he just crushed it. So we kind of worked more with his natural physiology rather than, you know, doing all these like back to back long runs and extreme amounts of vert. So.

• 1:39:29Rich Roll?

  Right. But I also find myself thinking, as somebody who doesn't have a background in running, I have a background in swimming and other things, but. You having this, you know, elite background and Joe is his name?

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, having a background as a, as a really good runner makes it make more sense like, okay, you don't need to do your long runs longer than 22 like, cause you're tapping into, you know, a two decades or a decade plus of that type of background. But if you're an amateur runner who's kind of new to all of this and doesn't have that.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Rich Roll?

  I think on a confidence level, they need to do a longer run just to convince themselves like it's possible. But maybe there's something to like those back to back, long, hard runs that fills the gap because they didn't have that, you know, experience as a younger person.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I kind of feel like, um, doing races, you know, gives people the confidence and the, to the, the way to prepare for whatever sort of like a goal race. Um, even I do that. I mean, I like to, when I'm going for an, uh, you know, training for a big race, like a world championship, I like to do like a marathon or 50K a couple of weeks out. And, you know, it's like my last, like long run, you know, for that big race. And I mean, that's, that's kind of the mindset that we have coaching the athletes that we, you know, try to do like, you know, something big, like a couple of weeks before their like A race. And, um, you know, that kind of like helps them to practice, you know, their nutrition and, and spending, you know, more time on their feet. And, but yeah, I feel like doing all these like back

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  to back long runs, I feel like it's too much stress. And I mean, I, I have a master's degree in exercise and sports science. And, and I mean, I just can't really justify from a science standpoint, like there's just too much stress, like from doing so many long runs. I feel like it beats you down. And when I've tried that, when I've tried to like, do like 30 mile plus training runs, I mean, I, I feel like I get tired. I'm like, there's, I don't feel like this is necessary. And so, yeah, when I like pulled back the reins, like I feel like, you know, if you pull back the reins and you know, you have a, yeah, finding that, that perfect formula to have like a race, like a couple of weeks out, that that kind of gets you dialed in and then just, you know, taper and recover for the race, the big race.

• 1:41:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. The final thing I wanted to ask you about has to do with diversity in ultra running. I mean, obviously it's a very kind of like white sport, you know? Um, I think it is really cool that there's so much enthusiasm and excitement around women in ultra running. And that's where. It's most exciting, I think, because of people like you who are really pushing boundaries and advancing the conversation of what's possible. But how can we make it a little bit more inclusive? I know this is something that you care about. And, you know, so elaborate on that.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's really interesting. When I go to comrades and that comrades is probably the most diverse race in the world as far as ultra running. And, yeah, and then you look at trail running and things and, you know, tend to be a little less diverse. And I think one thing that comrades has going for it is they have a very small entry fee. And I don't know what the conversion is for their amount to enter the race, but they have a different entry fee for international versus within South Africa. And I so I think I think of, you know, money, the cost of getting into a race like that's one barrier for sure. And I feel like, you know, maybe trail running needs to have some sort of subsidized like

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  entry fees or something to, you know, to allow like more people to afford it. But yeah, I think that comrades is kind of like brings in like a global like, and I don't know, it just seems like they have like this like, like it's kind of like the world coming together type of thing.

• 1:43:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But also, there's such a steep tradition there around it, like everybody there knows about it and everybody like it was the whole community just kind of does it, whether they're trained to do it or not.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe, you know, there needs to be more collaboration between like what comrades is doing right and trying to bring that more to trail running. And but yeah, just try to, you know, think about what are the barriers to allowing, you know, more diverse, you know, community. And, you know, I follow like the black trail runners. I think they're based in the UK and, you know, just trying to create a community to get more diversity into the sport. And there's also like the Native American trail runners. And I think I actually donated towards their cause.

• 1:44:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you donated money to that, your prize money towards that, right?

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this, like, I need to give back more. Like, I feel like, you know, even if I'm getting prize money, or, you know, what are the ways that I can give back to the sport? You know, do I donate part of my prize money? Like, you know, get more active with, you know, trying to promote these causes? And, you know, black trail runners and Native American trail runners. And, yeah, I mean, I feel like that there's ways that, you know, we need to, we need to acknowledge, you know, that, hey, you know, we're a pretty welcoming community, and, you know, anybody can do our sport. And, but, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's pretty cool, you know, that there's a greater awareness of that, too.

• 1:44:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. All right, well, before I let you go, I think it would be good to kind of round this out with just some parting words for somebody who's been listening to this or watching it and is feeling inspired and thinking, maybe I can do one of those. Like, that's cool. Like, how does somebody begin this process of tackling a big challenge? Or how do you inspire or motivate somebody to get off the couch and, and start thinking about raising their, their, their ceiling on what they're capable of?

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I mean, I think back to when I was a marathoner. And, I mean, even when I did the half marathon, I remember when I did the half marathon thinking it felt like a marathon. And, and it seems like every time I've gone up in distance, I'm like, you know, I spent many years doing marathons, and then I kind of wondered, what's next? Like, what's next? What can I do next? And, and, yeah, I mean, I, going into ultra running, it was kind of like deep diving into, you know, a whole other sport. And, you know, fortunately, I did it. Fortunately, I had the courage to do it. And, but now, you know, being able to give back to the sport as a coach, and that's what I recommend to athletes. I mean, I'm willing to help athletes, you know, to make that deep dive,

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  and, you know, and help them have the guidance and the confidence to do it. But, but, yeah, I mean, it's obviously, it's, I feel like there's kind of this step up. And, you know, sometimes there's even ultra runners who have stepped down in distance. And, I think about, like, Jim Wamsley stepped down and did the marathon, which was really cool.

• 1:46:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I mean, I, I feel like it takes, it takes courage to do that. But, obviously, you know, being a coach, I want to give back and, you know, help athletes, you know, to make that jump, you know, whether to step up or step down in distance, so.

• 1:46:29Rich Roll?

  Well, you're an inspiration and I think there's going to be a lot of new fans coming your way. Everybody's excited to see what you do at Western States and after that. So I appreciate you coming here today and sharing with me.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. Thank you for the conversation.

• 1:46:43Rich Roll?

  Your energy is amazing. It really is infectious and you're a beautiful person.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. Appreciate it.

• 1:46:52Rich Roll?

  Keep doing your thing. I just like, it's so cool. You're just knocking these things down like bowling pins. Nothing's in your way.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's on the mind and just determination and joy. I'm propelled by joy.

• 1:47:07Rich Roll?

  The joy thing is big, right?

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:47:10Rich Roll?

  And it doesn't, it's very authentic to you. It's not like, oh, I'm trying to be joyful because if I'm joyful, then this, I'll be a better athlete. It's not like that. It doesn't work that way, but.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  I'm just a happy person. Yeah.

• 1:47:21Rich Roll?

  How do you think you're so happy?

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  Married Irishman.

• 1:47:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, is that what?

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Married to an Irishman. Yeah. Well, I was, I mean, I was born on Christmas Day and they said I came into the world smiling. So, yeah, I came, I came into the world smiling.

• 1:47:36Rich Roll?

  And you've just always been this way?

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. My mom said I was just a happy baby and yeah, I liked, I like to eat.

• 1:47:42Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  I like to run. I like to eat. I mean, I just, yeah.

• 1:47:47Rich Roll?

  And now you get to do those things professionally.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Professionally.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. Well, come back and talk to me again after you break a bunch more world records and we'll get Connor on with you next time together and we can like get into the spreadsheets.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  There you go. Cool.

• 1:48:03Rich Roll?

  If anybody wants to learn more about you, should they just go to your website, Camille Herron, or you're, you're on all the socials and all of that. You share tons of stuff. I love the little video of you face planting on the trail. That's like pinned on your Twitter.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. That was like, it was a drone. I had no idea there was a drone that captured me like face planting on the trail and I got back up and was like bloody and everything and just kept going to the finish. So.

• 1:48:32Rich Roll?

  Right. So if you want to see that, go to Camille's Twitter.

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:36Rich Roll?

  And your website and anywhere else?

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I'm on Instagram at Ryan Camille and, and I mean, I get messages all the time. I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty interactive on like all the social media platforms. I really like interacting, commenting and, and you know, I meet people at races. I meet people at races and they're like, oh yeah, I follow you. And I mean, it's just, it's really cool. Like when I, when I meet people in person and I'm like, yeah, we like, you know, exchange messages and things. So.

• 1:49:04Rich Roll?

  So shoot her a DM and she might answer.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  And say hi at the next race. All right. Thanks so much.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thank you, Rich. Cool.

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:50:04Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camille, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate.

• 1:50:53Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.