John Cusack

Give a warm welcome to cinematic icon, John Cusack. John joins the pod for the first time to share his new graphic novel, MOMO, and chat with Josh about his filmography over the years. John tells Josh how he and Cameron Crowe got the dialogue just right on SAY ANYTHING, what idea he takes credit for on CON AIR, how he got Bruce Springsteen in HIGH FIDELITY, and how he landed BEING JOHN MALKOVICH. Plus, his friendship with Hunter S. Thompson, those BREAKING BAD and PULP FICTION rumors, and more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 10/13 -- Joe Manganiello in NY -- Tickets here: https://www.92ny.org/event/joe-manganiello-with-josh-horowitz-bloodlines 10/14 – Olivia Colman & Alexander Skarsgard – Tickets here: https://www.92ny.org/event/wicker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I said, I will be the first

• 0:03Speaker 00

  non biblical action star in the history of an action movie to wear sandals throughout a film. It's like post Heston, non biblical, there's one guy.

• 0:16Josh Horowitz?

  Gonna die on this hill.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:27Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today on the show, we've got John Cusack here, guys, an absolute icon of the eighties, the nineties, all the way up until today. This man has been in more iconic films than I can count on two hands, and we cover a lot of them on this one. I'm so thrilled this one happened. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to check out our Patreon if you want to support us. That's the best way to do it. Patreon.com/happy sad confused. Bonus materials, early access, access to our live events and so much more. Check it out. Okay, so John Cusack. This is one of those, what am I doing even trying to give an introduction to John Cusack? You know him and love him from Con Air, Say Anything, Gross Point Blank, High Fidelity, on and on and on.

• 1:13Josh Horowitz?

  He's one of the best and he's a part of like my, I don't know, my maturation as a film lover and probably yours. So many iconic roles and we honestly cover a ton of them in this. He has a new graphic novel out. This is a new, newest expression of his artistic vision. And I'm so proud to support it. It is called Momo. It is wild. It is trippy. It is definitely influenced by his old buddy, the dearly departed Hunter S. Thompson. We talk about that relationship in this and more. So check it out. If you wanted to support what John Cusack does, check out Momo. It's a new graphic novel on Amazon, wherever you get your graphic novels. Check it out. All right, let's get to the main event because he doesn't do a lot of these kind of long form conversations. So this is a treat. Here is me and the iconic John Cusack, everybody.

• 1:58Josh Horowitz?

  John Cusack.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  How are you, sir?

• 1:59Josh Horowitz?

  It's so good to see you, man.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  It's so good to see you.

• 2:01Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you for doing the podcast.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:03Josh Horowitz?

  You don't do a lot of this, so this means a lot to me. I'm obviously a fan of everything you've done as a, look, you're an actor, you're an activist, you're a writer. You're now a graphic novelist. Look at this.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 2:15Josh Horowitz?

  How does this feel to look at that in print? It exists. It's real, John.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  It feels good. It feels fun. It feels like, um, uh, we were just talking a little bit before we started and, um, it was fun just to write something and say, okay, I kind of think this is good and done, you know, and usually, you know, you can keep obsessing and rewriting things all the time. But I said, I'm just gonna, I think the script is done. And then I said, well, let me find a cool writer and a good friend of mine connected me with Ignacio No, and I saw his work and he was so, it was so beautiful. And he responded and he said he really wanted to do it. So we just did it together. You know, self financed, I like, I financed it.

• 3:00Josh Horowitz?

  Doesn't have to go through committees, doesn't have to go through, we need $20 million to get this off the ground.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:05Josh Horowitz?

  You can just expunge all the creativity from your soul.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  There was no pitches. There was no nothing, right? And so we just did it. And then, um, and I said to him, you know,

• 3:17Speaker 00

  you're full creative partner. Don't draw anything you don't want to do. Make yourself completely happy with it or as happy as you can be. And if you want to collaborate, we will. But if not, you know, like just, you're, I wrote it and now you do your thing. And so it was a very, very like cool, fun, pure experience just to make something with like one other person.

• 3:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. So we're gonna, yeah, totally. I totally get it. And I, and I, I'm glad it's brought you here today because there's a lot to talk about and like in this, this particular project, it's fascinating to me because look, you've, you've been a part of some amazing iconic works over the years. What I'm curious about is like, is the dopamine hit you get out of this similar? Is it different? Are you feeling like a different kind of, I don't know, rush out of this experience versus writing Gross Point Blank, Being and Say Anything, like these, these movies that mean a lot to a lot of people?

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's like, it's, it's similar and or, or it's a little bit higher probably because, you know, when you write a screenplay or whatever it is, it's still your, you can just do it the way you want it. Unless you're, you know, selling it to somebody and you're writing for someone else. But a lot of stuff I've done, I just do it like on spec. You know, I just, I write my things I like.

• 4:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  And that is really fun because, you know, it's just how you imagine. You don't have to like sell it to anybody or justify things. And this was like a pure rush. I mean, my buddy Mark Lehner and I, um, and it's, it originated, we were both really interested in Arto.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Because he's just a fascinating figure.

• 4:53Josh Horowitz?

  This is a French artist.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  The surrealist, you know, um, and he was the one like Andre Breton and all those guys said, he was the one who never relented. Like he was just the guy, right? He just pushed it farther and farther and farther and was committed. And he was a silent film star. He was in Joan of Arc and all that stuff. But he was really kind of a radical guy and even his philosophies and theories are unachievable. Like, but that's kind of the point. He was just, he was kind of a wizard, we thought, you know? And we were like, what would be a great movie about Arto? And we were trying to think of it and then at one time we had Mark, we had the idea of Full Metal Arto, which would be like a, if he was some sort of robotic thing, no, that's no good. And then it's sort of.

• 5:39Josh Horowitz?

  Jackie Gleason.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  It got, well, it got there. But then the, the, the origination was, Mark and I were sitting and I said, the best version of, it was in the, he wrote it in the foreword, that it's actually a true story. I did try to bribe him, not really. But I said, the best version of an Arto movie would be Arto rising out of the sea like Godzilla and smashing, you know, AI tech, all the future civilization.

• 6:07Josh Horowitz?

  There's a little bit of that towards the end of this.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, that's the end of it. You're right. And so, but then we said, well, the, that movie would, oh, to the theme of the Munsters.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  Of course. Sorry, I left that out.

• 6:18Josh Horowitz?

  To be fair, the theme of the Munsters goes with everything. It makes everything a little better.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. So we knew that would be the best version of the Arto movie, but then we both agreed, like, there's no other Arto movie to make, but that would be a two minute movie or a three minute movie. So then, and then I started to think about Jackie Gleason and Richard Nixon and the alien heads.

• 6:42Josh Horowitz?

  As one does.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  And I came to the conclusion with some top secret documents that were handed to me, that, um, perhaps Arto did not die in the insane asylum on the south of France, but the Jackie Gleason, yes, the Jackie Gleason

• 7:01Speaker 00

  arranged, uh, Eagle Will Dare Commando Style Raid to extract him.

• 7:08Josh Horowitz?

  When you say it out loud, it makes more sense. Now I get it.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Now you, you see what I'm saying? Like you're trying to put things together.

• 7:14Josh Horowitz?

  Were any psychedelics used or consumed in the, in the making of this?

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Well, I think I've had psychedelics used and consumed in my life.

• 7:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So maybe based some residuals.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yes, could be based in that.

• 7:26Josh Horowitz?

  But it is like, it does.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  But it also has like, it's an homage to lots of genres and things that I love.

• 7:32Josh Horowitz?

  It's a road trip. It's a buddy thing.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  So there's a lot of things, you know, references that I love, you know, but there's definitely some Hunter in there, you know?

• 7:40Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  I mean, there's no doubt.

• 7:42Josh Horowitz?

  So Hunter S. Thompson.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  It's, it's like a fan fiction novel of something that doesn't exist.

• 7:47Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna ask.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Does that make sense?

• 7:48Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. I was gonna actually ask you, you knew Hunter?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was a friend.

• 7:52Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, that's, you were talking before, like one of the pleasures of your life, one of the gifts is like the people you've collected, the people you've gotten to know through your crazy life.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:01Josh Horowitz?

  To know Hunter.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:03Josh Horowitz?

  What was that relationship? What did he? What was it like to be in his presence? Were shotguns fired? Was like, did the whole experience?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  All of it, all of it. He was great.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Corey was a southern gentleman and a romantic and idealist and, and, you know, obviously a disillusioned idealist. Um, he was always the smartest guy in the room, probably the funniest human being I've ever met. A wild animal that could be dangerous, um, but a very loyal guy. So the relationship, I mean, I went out to see him in,

• 8:39Speaker 00

  at Woody Creek a few times and very memorable stories.

• 8:45Josh Horowitz?

  Like, would you see him turn like from like?

• 8:47Speaker 00

  No, no, no, he was always, uh, he was always great. It was just like when he picked us up at the airport. You know, he was in one of his Cadillacs and then he drove in, he said, oh, okay. But you know, you see that car on there, the car there? If you could just grab that and follow me to the, um, follow me to the farm. So right off the bat, it was like, he had me steal like Glenn Fry's car. So it was like right off the bat, like grand theft on. Not even out of the air, like just out of the airport.

• 9:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  And then when we got there, you know, he's like, uh, do you, do you play golf? Do you shoot? I was like, sure. He goes, and he set up a, he goes, I'm going to get back inside for a minute. You know, affidavits, I would say, whatever. At a, and he, he set up something called shotgun golf where it's like a pigeon putt with a flag. But if you can blow the ball out of the air, you know, fair play. So that was like within the first half hour.

• 9:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right. And then the other stuff is not.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  So he put on a night, he put on a night show. It was a, it was a nice show. He said, yes, come out and on the weekend there will be games.

• 9:55Josh Horowitz?

  Some will believe, some will not, most will not.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  But he was also like, uh, I mean, look, he was.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  The, the myth and the legend of, you know, that was one part, but he was also a guy that woke up and read everything. And was brilliant, brilliant guy.

• 10:13Josh Horowitz?

  So he's in your mind a bit when you're writing this, I mean, a little bit?

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's, I don't think there's, there's some writers and some influences that affect you so hard. You can't, there, it's impossible to get their tone or their comic sensibility out of your head. And all you can do is like, sometimes pay homage to it. Cause it's, it's just, he's sort of like Lono, the god of fun, you know? But he was a, yeah, very, um, great guy. And then most of the relationship back then would be at night. Um, and I would get lots of faxes and things, and he would send me stuff and I would send him stuff. So you were talking to him on the phone, cause he used to, this was before all the stuff.

• 10:53Josh Horowitz?

  You must have like a half dozen of these people, like was like, was like, well, you know, in your life, like, did you Brando?

• 10:58Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Um, I do, I do have some amazing people that I've met. But in the, um, we have like a book, another book coming out with like more stuff in it.

• 11:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  And in that I have all, a lot of the fax correspondence that between Hunter and me, all the late nights, you'll see like 1991, right? And he's, and you know, and I would send him things like I'd try to work them up. Like I sent him a Wall Street Journal article about like these pansexual snails that were brought in from.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  And so then it became a story about, uh, pansexual snails inviting the White House. You know?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  And so I like, I have the article I sent him and then I have the.

• 11:43Josh Horowitz?

  You need to release the Hunter files. It sounds like you are releasing the Hunter files.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  There's some Hunter files, but they're all, it's all, it's all love. And then, um, I did a version of his, I did a version of Fear and Loathing on, on Las Vegas on stage. And then he had Ralph Stebman make the cover art for it. And that was what, that went on the Rolling Stone cover of Fear and Loathing and Elko. He, he did that for our show, so.

• 12:07Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  So I've had BS, but I.

• 12:09Josh Horowitz?

  What about here's a random one that's not so random, cause there's a lot of Exorcist in this, in this. Did you know Friedkin? Did you know?

• 12:16Speaker 00

  I did, uh, I had met, uh, uh, William Friedkin. And we had talked about doing a, a show together. I was like, William Friedkin wants to do a show. I was like, yeah. He goes, all right, we'll send you the script. I was like, why? I'm going to do it. You can send it, but I mean, I don't.

• 12:34Josh Horowitz?

  It's a courtesy shore.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  I'm gonna, I want to work with William Friedkin, right? And what I found was fascinating was we had to go around to all the studios and pitch it. And they turned down William Friedkin.

• 12:47Josh Horowitz?

  I mean.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  I was just like, I was like.

• 12:49Josh Horowitz?

  French Connection, Exorcist, like two of the literal perfect movies in the universe.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  I just stared at them like, I couldn't believe.

• 12:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  I mean, I didn't know during the, the pitches, but I guess they know better.

• 13:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, well.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  You know, I've gotten to meet so many wonderful people and like, uh.

• 13:05Josh Horowitz?

  It is arguably the, the greatest gift of something like this, an unexpected gift, like to be like, enter a club you didn't know existed.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it was like that, because that sounds sort of like, um, you know, as you get older, you realize there. Everybody wants to be in the VIP club and there is no VIP club.

• 13:24Josh Horowitz?

  There's always another velvet rope to get.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Right, right. And the people that you meet that are awesome, like, don't.

• 13:30Josh Horowitz?

  Kind of say fuck it.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  They, they don't acknowledge the VIP club.

• 13:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  They're all outcasts and weirdos.

• 13:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Like I got to, um, yeah, it just was strange, cause I was working when I was such a young kid, you know, I was, I started when I was a teenager. And so I got to actually meet some of my heroes and actually work with them.

• 13:47Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  I mean, I got to work with Al Pacino, who became a friend. And he is also one of the great, great, uh, human beings and one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet.

• 13:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Just such an original mind and, um.

• 14:00Josh Horowitz?

  He's, yeah, he, I mean, I'm privileged enough that he's been on the podcast.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. So you know?

• 14:04Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I mean, we all know, I mean, like that mind is just going a thousand different places at once. And you're just trying to like, follow it as best you can. But it's like, he's got all the stories, all the wonderful eccentricities, and he's the greatest actor ever. So it's, it's everything. More Happy Sad Confused coming up.

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• 15:56Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you know, you reference kind of like, you kind of came of age. You were, you were a teenager when like the sure thing happens, which is your first leading role.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:05Josh Horowitz?

  Is that the, is that the shift point for you that you think of when kind of fame and kind of, I don't know, a shift in your life happened? Is that a demarcation point when you look back or?

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, well, because I was, I went from, uh, being in high school, like in study class to being on a set with Jacqueline Bissette. I mean, like, what is it? You know, I, that's when I was in, I think a sophomore in high school. And that's just luck, because they happened to be making movies in Chicago.

• 16:34Josh Horowitz?

  You were at a good time when Chicago, John Hughes, all these films.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I happened to be of age and was interested in acting and sort of doing it. And, you know, um, and so I was lucky enough to get a, get a, get a part and then get another one. And then, um, I was still a junior in high school and I auditioned for Rob Reiner's The Sure Thing. And he hired me. And so, so I basically, you know, that was my first lead role.

• 17:00Josh Horowitz?

  Were you? How?

• 17:02Speaker 00

  So like demarcation point is sort of like, I was a teenager and I got to jump into this world.

• 17:07Josh Horowitz?

  You'd already done a couple smaller roles. Yes. Like, were you, were you going up? Cause you did, um, you were part of the John Hughes world a little bit. You were in.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  I was in one of his movies. Yeah, I was in Sixteen Candles.

• 17:17Josh Horowitz?

  I'm surprised you actually didn't pop up in other things. There's, there's like the, there's conjecture that like you were offered the Judd, Judd's role in Breakfast Club.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  No, no, I think there was one time, at one point where I think he thought he wanted me to do it. And I, I think I would, I would have done it. I thought it was a cool script. But it didn't go that way.

• 17:35Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  But, so.

• 17:37Josh Horowitz?

  And what do you remember of, like, how did you handle, what are the pros and cons of being a, this is going to make you gag, a teen idol? Like, kind of like getting into that world, like, and getting that degree of fame and probably being on the cover of those magazines at the time. Was that, when you look back, was that fun? Was it overwhelming? Did you handle it well?

• 17:56Speaker 00

  No, I, I think, um.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  You know, they say fame is something that, you know, you have to sort of deal with because you don't really get prepared for it, especially when you're probably a teenager. So, but I was lucky because I think maybe the way my parents were or the people that I admired, you know, I hadn't done anything. Yeah. So I was never gonna buy my, buy the hype or anything like, right? I want, you know, I wanted to work with great people and do great movies, but I knew I hadn't done anything yet. So, you know, I wasn't.

• 18:31Josh Horowitz?

  It does seem like from the beginning you had really good taste. Like, I don't know how much of it is luck and how much of it is taste.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  I think my father was always like, he just said, you know, to be a celebrity is death for an artist. Like, you know, he was always about like, what's the script? What's the part? What's this thing saying? Right. And so like he was wasn't impressed by any of that. So I think that rubbed off on me.

• 18:51Josh Horowitz?

  So because of things like that, because of that kind of thing being grand when some like John Sales calls, that's meaning.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, like that was, yeah, that was like, oh, wow. That's like the big league.

• 19:01Josh Horowitz?

  This is like a real auteur, a real writer.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  So even I didn't take any of that stuff seriously as a teen.

• 19:07Josh Horowitz?

  Were you, were you already a huge baseball fan when, when?

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:12Josh Horowitz?

  That's probably still gotta be been one of the great jobs ever to like be a ball player, tell that story that.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  It was, it was. And it was John Sales was in it. Studs Terkel was in it. Like, I remember that. Studs Terkel played, remember John Sales did a great Ring Lardner?

• 19:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Right. And then Huey, I think it was named, not Huey Long, the governor, but Huey something, the sportswriter was Studs Terkel. So, I mean, you could just listen to Studs Terkel talk for days.

• 19:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  And then it was filled with other great, Christopher Lloyd was in it, Clifton James. All right. And Clifton James, you remember Cool Hand Luke?

• 19:52Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  He says, spend a night in the box. I'm Carl, the floor manager, right? Just a great, one of those great, great.

• 20:00Josh Horowitz?

  Character actors.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  Character actors, you know, that this, I mean, truly fantastic. So he played Charles Kaminsky. So I was like, it was unbelievable.

• 20:07Josh Horowitz?

  And then you get to eventually look at Paul Newman himself, Cool Hand Luke himself. Did he, did he live up to the hype? Did he?

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Completely. Yeah, completely. Great.

• 20:17Josh Horowitz?

  Just a human, great human being, obviously.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  But also like those guys were, like Al and Newman, they were very gracious with younger actors, you know, like if they, you know, they, they would sort of look out for you and they knew you admired them and they were, you know, they were really very gracious and warm. So I got to, you know, hang out with Paul a little bit and get to know him.

• 20:38Josh Horowitz?

  What a privilege. Again. Okay. So, I mean, there are a few iconic roles we have to mention. And look, you know, Lloyd Dobler is one of the all timers and like has such a personal connection for literally millions of people. Everybody like experiences say anything at a certain point in their life and they invariably connect with it. That feels like the great, like a great fusion of you and Cameron at the time, because you influenced that character, it seems as much as obviously Cameron's writing it.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a real collaboration.

• 21:05Josh Horowitz?

  Like where did, where do you end and Lloyd begin? Like, when you look at that character, what of you is in there?

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Um, I think a lot, but you know, Cameron's was, we, we used to say like, all right, the version that we see together would be like a, and of course, this is a very pretentious thing to say for a 21 year old, whatever. But it's like Lennon and McCartney, right? You know, you gotta admit it's getting better. It's getting better all the time. Lennon says it can't get no worse. So you, you hold those things. So my thing was, I felt like to be 19, 20, 21 in the Reagan America, it was dark. And, you know, that's why all the punk movement was so cool. And that's why you, you know, you'd have to go get your information,

• 21:56Speaker 00

  you know, through culture and you had to, you had to kind of earn it. And, you know, it's a time when you would carry books around in the back of your, you know, you, you know, all that's, you're a young man, right? So when I would meet people who wanted to do versions of teen that sounded like 50 year old men talking.

• 22:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  You know, okay, that's quick dialogue and it's witty, but I don't relate to it at all. So like.

• 22:22Josh Horowitz?

  That was Cameron's gift, that he was, he was young enough that he was still connecting with those characters and like.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Well, he, he had a vision of the guy, but he also had, he was inclusive enough to know, or at least instinctive enough to know that like I had something that I had to bring to it in order to do it.

• 22:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  And, you know, he was big enough to embrace that, I guess.

• 22:45Josh Horowitz?

  Did he connect with them?

• 22:46Speaker 00

  But I remember I talked to the, like, the producer, who's a great guy and like was great for the film.

• 22:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  But, you know, at first they, he sort of tried to wrangle me a little bit. And he said, called me into his office and said, look, I don't think this is a character that has an agenda. I don't think this is a character that needs a beer at a party to have a good time. And I just said, Jim, stop there. I don't understand anything that you're saying. And when I mean anything, I mean, nothing. I don't want to do that.

• 23:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  I want to do like, I want to wear a Clash t-shirt. I want to like, you know, you have to have a worldview, right? You have to like, especially when you're a young man, like you're trying to figure out what the hell you want to be a part of, what you don't want to be a part of, like, you know, what you reject, what you accept, like it's, that's part of what, you know?

• 23:38Josh Horowitz?

  That's the.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  I feel, right? So like I want, that's, I don't, I don't want to do that thing. So like, I, I told you, I didn't, I told you I'll do, I'd only do it if I could work on the character and rewrite it. So, but to his great credit, you know, and he was sort of like, looking at me like, oh, this kid's got, you know, what is this kid talking? But then, but when he saw what I was doing, he, he was supported at a hundred percent.

• 24:01Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, that iconic kind of speech, the, I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, process anything. That feels still very like.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I wrote that with Cameron and I wrote the first part and then Cameron added, I can't figure it all tonight, sir. I just want to hang with your daughter, which was, that was like a perfect combination.

• 24:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right. There's Lennon McCartney right there.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  Yep, totally. Yeah. So, so that was, that was a really good experience. And yeah, that was just great.

• 24:28Josh Horowitz?

  I do, I have like a.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  But I do think the movie works. It, people talk about like Cameron and me, but I think the story of the father and the daughter and the.

• 24:39Josh Horowitz?

  John and I.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  John and I already together. I think that speaks to a lot of people as much as, you know, my character did. Cause it was very, had a very genuine, dark kind of really, and John Mahoney's such a great actor.

• 24:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  And I had worked with him on Eight Men Out. He played the manager and he was the guy saying, oh, I'm going to do this, say anything, you gotta do it. And I was like, oh, but it's a teen. I don't want to go back to doing that. And he goes, no, it's better than that. It's cool. But then it was John. So I think that, that part was, I think.

• 25:12Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Underrated, let's just say.

• 25:15Josh Horowitz?

  Can I give you a 17 year old overdue apology? I don't know if you remember this. Do you remember that we had an encounter related to say anything a thousand years ago?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Um, I don't think you owe me an apology.

• 25:25Josh Horowitz?

  No, I do. I do.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  No matter what you said.

• 25:26Josh Horowitz?

  It was the 2012 junket and I, silly Josh, who was trying to be funny, brought in a cardboard boombox. And.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 25:34Josh Horowitz?

  I was that guy.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  That's all right.

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, yeah. But like, I get it. Like you were in the middle of promoting out the movie and then some guys like coming in with a shtick being like, here's the boombox, John. And I wasn't expect, I don't even know what I was expecting at the time. But I feel like part of this today, I want to talk about your life and career. I just want to say sorry. I didn't mean to like.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Don't be sorry.

• 25:54Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  I didn't, I don't, I probably didn't, I wasn't, did I look mad?

• 25:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I feel like I just like, you know, I feel like you, there's a lot of baggage to like that character and that that's been with you every day of your career. And like for somebody to come in and try.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  If I was giving you, you know, a little attitude, I think it's because when you make a movie like 2012, you literally promote the movie around the world for like seven months.

• 26:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Like double the amount of time it took to shoot the movie. So just as you can't, you know, you just get a little bit tired of answering.

• 26:27Josh Horowitz?

  I get it.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:27Josh Horowitz?

  I get it.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  But I must've been, it was probably that.

• 26:30Josh Horowitz?

  We were both saying, yeah, this, this whole podcast is a reaction to that culture, basically. Like it, it desensitized me from human interaction and just like, what is it like to actually have a conversation with a human being again?

• 26:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:41Josh Horowitz?

  And here we are. Here we are.

• 26:51Speaker 05

  From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom, Everyday Mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11-year-old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom, Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:36Speaker 06

  Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you're going to love our podcast, Disney Countdown. Hi, I'm Megan the Magical Millennial.

• 27:43Speaker 07

  And biscuits, I'm Jeremy, AKA Jerindell, and we are the hosts of the Hit Disney Podcast, Disney Countdown.

• 27:49Speaker 06

  On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we countdown our top 10 lists of all things Disney: the parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show, right Jeremy?

• 28:02Speaker 07

  Ooh, girl, you know, we are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you are looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:19Josh Horowitz?

  So I was gonna say, so like in the wake of Say Anything, again, like, I feel like your taste has always been impeccable. Like, you know, you work with Paul Newman in Fat Man and Little Boy. You work in The Grifters. I mean, come on, The Grifters, Stephen Frears, who obviously became an important collaborator for other reasons later on. The Grifters is a great one, like a great, great movie. And you, Annette, who kind of seemingly came out of nowhere, she's done some stuff, but like she's a lightning bolt in that film.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, that she would, she had done a version of Dangerous Laissons with Milos Forman, which was very good, but for some reason Stevens got more attention at the time.

• 28:53Josh Horowitz?

  And you and Angelica, talk about an interesting dynamic. Was she intimidating? Is Angelica Huston like?

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Well, for some reason, we got along so great. And I think, you know, maybe it's the Irish heritage and I don't know, there was just some, we had, we had an instant sort of friendship.

• 29:11Josh Horowitz?

  What, how did that, because like Frears has had such, such an eclectic, interesting career, like for him to direct that and then also for you to collaborate all those years later, did you think of Frears all those years later?

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 29:24Josh Horowitz?

  For High Fidelity?

• 29:25Speaker 00

  I thought of it.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Joe Roth, who ran Disney, who was a great, great friend to artists, like he had his studio movies, like we'd do Con Air and all those kind of movies. But then he had seven or eight slots out of his 30 movies he'd make a year, and he would just give it to filmmakers that he liked. So I got to make Gross Point Blank and High Fidelity, and Spike Lee got to make Summer Sam, Wes Anderson got to make Rushmore. So like he really, and you know, he didn't mess with you. He was, he really supported the films. So it was just pure luck. So anyway, I'd worked with him and on Gross Point Blank, and he said he had the rights to, the studio had High Fidelity. So he said, do you want to write it? And I said, yeah. And I wrote it and he liked the script.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  So we were greenlit and then we got to hire a director and I thought, well, you know, it's a British story and Stephen can do anything. And I thought it was a lark. I said, hey, Stephen, you want to take this, check this out, maybe that's something you want to do. And he wanted to do it.

• 30:30Josh Horowitz?

  How did you get Springsteen? Springsteen does not do that kind of thing.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Well, that was another, like the weird life thing, which was like, I got to go, you know, to see Springsteen shows and stuff, and that somehow I still could never understand how any of the people that I was heroes with knew anything about my work or had seen my movies. Like honestly, it seems odd to me that they knew anything about me because I was huge fans of them since I was, you know, a kid. But I knew him and I'd gotten to hang out with him a little bit. And so, you know, I had his number, so I called him up. I said, hey, um, do you want to play a version? I said, I gotta ask you something and please apologize, you know, I, I understand that

• 31:17Speaker 00

  this is going to be a weird ask, but I gotta try it and please forgive me for asking. And he said, stop, go ahead. What, what, what do you got? And I said, do you want to play yourself talking to me in my head about, and I pitched for him and he went, I just paused and he went, "Sounds good." It was like, I was like, wait a minute. But I think he knew, he knew about the book.

• 31:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  And he also knew that it was about music and a love letter to music. So if there was going to be something he could do that would fit his groove.

• 31:51Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  I mean, this was like, the whole book was a love letter to great music. So, and he was in the book and he knew that he was in the book.

• 32:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  So it was just basically a hail Mary that, you know, landed, but I was always grateful for him to, for doing that.

• 32:09Josh Horowitz?

  Did you, did you ever out of curiosity see the, I think it was an Amazon show, the Zoe Kravitz show, was that a curiosity to see a different interpretation of it or?

• 32:16Speaker 00

  No, I didn't. Because nobody asked me about it. So I've sort of thought, okay, well, that's cool. But I mean, I was, I know that I'd worked with, you know, Lisa was in the movie and I also worked with her father, Lenny, but I just thought, no one, if they didn't, they didn't call about it. So I thought, I don't know, I didn't see it.

• 32:39Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I look at the career, especially in the 90s, like there's never been a 1997, like, like I've seen on someone else's career. You have Gross Point Blank, you have Con Air, and you have Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. That's, that's quite a trio. That's like all over the map in the best possible way.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  That's pretty crazy.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  When you think about it. Gross Point Blank, I mean, that, does that remain kind of like, for you artistically, maybe the most creatively satisfying film experience of your career? Like, is that the truest expression of what you were?

• 33:09Speaker 00

  It's, yeah, that's about the best comedy I can make.

• 33:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  I think, you know what I mean?

• 33:13Josh Horowitz?

  Like, those are your sensibilities, that's what you.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  I think so, yeah. You know, probably. And those kinds of things are sort of hard to make. So, and again, that was just like, I don't think it would have happened without a guy like Joe Roth running the studio. Cause honestly, because I'm, getting other movies made is always so difficult, getting the aesthetic and the tone right. And he was champion of the movie. So it was like a, you know, I was very lucky to, again, to know a guy like Joe Roth and to have him like my work and, and.

• 33:49Josh Horowitz?

  And those are few and far between, they were few and far between now, they're almost non-existent now.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  I don't think they exist anymore.

• 33:55Josh Horowitz?

  When you, I was gonna talk about this later, but let's talk about it now, because like I don't want to make it like a sad state of affairs, because I still, there's still a lot of great film out there, but when you look at the landscape now.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Most of it comes from out of the country, though. I mean.

• 34:07Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Korean cinema is awesome, right? And like lots of stuff around the world is really cool, but the Americans are, the films are flat, you know?

• 34:17Josh Horowitz?

  Have you seen that kind of like, did you see it kind of happening in real time for you? Because like, it does feel like the last decade, 15 years, 20 years. I mean, and I like superhero films, don't get me wrong, we're talking about a graphic novel that's comic, you know, there's the comic world. Good ones are great, but I don't know, does it, is it depressing for you as someone that kind of came of age in a time where you were allowed a little bit of artistic freedom?

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Well, like getting back to the, when I was, when I was doing Say Anything, right? So the producer of it was Polly Platt. Polly Platt was married and worked with Peter Bogdanovich. So she had made Paper Moon, Last Picture Show, like, I mean, great films, right? Really cool, seminal, amazing films. So she was like, that was her mindset. Her mindset wasn't, how are we gonna, you know, make the most money and who am I going to connect with here? It was like different values. The cinematographer was Lazlo Kovacs.

• 35:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  You know, guy was carrying, you know, during the revolution, he was, you know, going across fields with canisters of film, right? You know, he's a real artist. And the first AD was Jerry Zeissmer, who was Francis Ford Coppola's first AD on Apocalypse Now, who is in the scene when he says, you know, terminate with extreme prejudice. That's Jerry.

• 35:41Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  And so there was, you know, there's that feel of, you know, you're here to try to make something cool and artistic. And I think over the years, it became more and more corporate and the people who were running the studios.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  It used to be that they, the studios were just studios and then, you know, people forget, but there was time when Paramount and Warner Brothers weren't held by some huge international, right? Now the, the movie things are a tiny, tiny part of a media empire. And it's all about vertical integration strategies and all that. So.

• 36:23Josh Horowitz?

  They're selling telephones. They're not selling movies.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the, the environment, the corporate environment around it has to do with like kind of uniformity and surety and, um, but movies should, you know, the one thing that

• 36:40Speaker 00

  movies lack is ambiguity, right? Like you can't feel conflicted ways about a character.

• 36:45Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Right?

• 36:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  And, and I mean, look, if you're just thinking about making money, maybe, I don't, I still don't think it's the right move.

• 36:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  But they, they seem to think that way. So,

• 37:00Speaker 00

  you know, a good way to say it was, you ever heard anyone say it was like Philadelphia was better when the mob ran it?

• 37:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  And that's a good, good kind of metaphor because at least when the mob is like, you knew who he had to pay off, right? The garbage got collected. Don't go into that neighborhood. Don't mess with that guy. Okay. And you know, you can make a deal, right? So like some of the stu-, it was like the wild west, but some of the, you could still make deals with people who ran studios who were just people.

• 37:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right now it feels like a faceless boardroom.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. You're, you're, you know, now, now you're like, your scripts are, every script is going to Amazon to go into the AI machine and get, you know, now they have, AI gives notes for studios.

• 37:42Josh Horowitz?

  Do you see a place for yourself in like the studio system nowadays? It's been a minute since you've done like a studio film and like, I, I think a lot, I speak for a lot of fans who are like, we love you and we want to see you like in great projects. And I feel like you are not being rewarded for what you can do. And like, I don't, from your perspective, like are you wanting for great material or what do you?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I just think, I, I think, uh, it's just a different, um, it's just a different vibe, you know? Uh,

• 38:15Speaker 00

  like when,

• 38:18Speaker 00

  even Harvey, the, the Harvey Weinstein, like he was, you know, kind of a gangster-y guy. And I didn't know, no one knew the extent of his criminality, right? But he was the guy who ran Miramax. And if you, if he and his brother, if like.

• 38:32Josh Horowitz?

  If they liked your stuff.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  If you were good with he and his brother, or if you could tolerate their notes or whatever it was.

• 38:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  You, you'd make your movie and you know, some, you know.

• 38:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  But it was like, you knew, there was somebody, there was a person you could deal with.

• 38:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. We just need a less horrible version of Harvey that's actually calling the shots to.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Or calling some shots. So, I mean, I think, uh, and also like studio movies are now the independent, like when I was, when they made Tapeheads in, um, nineteen, I don't remember what it was. That was pre-Sundance, right?

• 39:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  And that was like, those were really independent films, right? There, there was, you know, but now the independent version is just a subdivision of Universal. And basically means you're going, you get to do a really good project and, but we still don't, you know, what we have to.

• 39:25Josh Horowitz?

  We're going to be less money for it.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  We're getting like, but you know, which is cool because you get to do a good project, but it's just, they're not independent. They're, it's an independent brand.

• 39:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  But it's still a Universal or a whatever movie.

• 39:37Josh Horowitz?

  I mean.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  And it still goes through those processes.

• 39:41Josh Horowitz?

  Look, you, you, you were able to work within the studio system quite a lot and have been. And like, then there's like a weird like anomaly, like on paper, I don't know.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  I'm talking about like, you know, Joe Roth, John Calley, like those are the good versions. And then there's the outlaw Harvey Weinstein thing, but, and the terrible, um, those terrible revelations about him. But what you do, did know is that he, you know, if he got behind a film, he could get it made and.

• 40:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  You know?

• 40:08Josh Horowitz?

  Where does something like, like Kanye or fit in? Like Kanye should not have worked, I feel like in retrospect, like it's like.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Well, that was, that was, that was Joe and that was, uh, Disney and, um.

• 40:18Josh Horowitz?

  Is that a Bruckheimer? I can't even remember.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  That was Bruckheimer.

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right. Like, did that feel like at the time, something that was working? Like, I mean, you had, look, it had an amazing company of actors. Like that was undeniable. You look to your left, you look to your right, you've got Buscemi, you've got Malkovich, you've got Nick, like everybody's going for it.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Right. Ving, Ving Rhames.

• 40:38Josh Horowitz?

  Ving Rhames is amazing.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Uh, Steve Buscemi.

• 40:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  David Chappelle's in that.

• 40:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right. Whose idea were the sandals for your guy? Of course it was.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Right. Thank you. My, my plan was, um, I had, I had a very specific plan, uh, that your audience might not find interesting and they've probably fallen asleep right now.

• 41:00Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Yes, they have. But, um, I said, I will be the first

• 41:05Speaker 00

  non-biblical action star in the history of an action movie to wear sandals throughout a film. It's like post-Heston, non-biblical, there's one guy.

• 41:18Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna die on this hill.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I just thought it was really.

• 41:23Josh Horowitz?

  It's a distinction.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Cause the film is ridiculous.

• 41:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  So I just thought, yeah, why don't I be ridiculous? And I thought, if I do an action movie in Birkenstocks, that'll be really hard and it'll be really weird. And, um, that was my plan.

• 41:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Does the movie work without the Birkenstocks? We'll never know, but it works with the Birkenstocks. We know that.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:43Josh Horowitz?

  So we thank you for your service.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you. But it was fun. It was, uh, it was, um,

• 41:51Speaker 00

  I mean, look, no one's taking that movie seriously. And I think we do take the movie seriously.

• 41:55Josh Horowitz?

  It's a cartoon.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Total cartoon, but it's, um, I mean, I just loved, uh, hanging out with John Malkovich. And also it was, it was, uh, Disney and Joe Roth was like, had given me everything I needed for gross, point blank, and high fatality. I was like, you got it there, you know?

• 42:15Josh Horowitz?

  This is a deal I'll make.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  I mean, look, and I was like, yeah, it was probably a smart movie, a smart move. That would be like the funnest way you could do.

• 42:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  The putting on the tights, Marvel stuff. Like, you know, it was like, at the time, that was a, a fun thing to do. And I remembered it, you know, being just funny and absurd.

• 42:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. It's speaking of the comic book world, I remember a long time ago, and I don't know if this was like fan casting at the time for you and Watchmen. Do you remember that? Like there was talk of like.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, there's, some of those things are so, uh, like weird because there was this whole, uh, riff that I had turned down Walter White.

• 42:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  And I, I never ever remembered that. And I was like, did that happen? And I'm like, blacked out.

• 43:02Josh Horowitz?

  The email, you're like.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  No, no, I'm just saying like, you know, did I lose time or, you know?

• 43:07Josh Horowitz?

  So for the record.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  No. And so, so, and I met Vince Gill in New York and I was like, hey, man, I love your show. It's awesome. I gotta know, everyone's saying you offered me that. Did you offer me that? He was like, no. I was like, thank you, Vince.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  But like, I don't know, like, but I'm, even if people say, oh, do you, would you regret doing that? I was like, how could you regret Brian Cranston playing that role? Like, it's his.

• 43:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  It was meant to be his, right? You know, if, uh,

• 43:41Speaker 00

  like they say, oh, do you regret this or that? You know, I would have loved to have been in Drugstore Cowboy, right? But that's Matt Dillon's. It's his. Like he was perfect. Him and Gus Van Zant were perfect. It was, you know, so, uh, when a movie works like that, you know, no, yeah, I don't, I don't want to take that away from, you know?

• 44:02Josh Horowitz?

  So similarly, that, that was the, the Watchmen stuff was, there was nothing.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  No, I never, I, I didn't get offered that.

• 44:08Josh Horowitz?

  There was also like a famous thing that was unearthed in the last few years of like,

• 44:13Josh Horowitz?

  Tarantino supposedly had you as the top choice to play the role that eventually Eric Stoltz played in Pulp Fiction. Did you hear about that?

• 44:19Speaker 00

  I think I might've been, I do, I do remember meeting with him about that movie and, you know, he went to a, we went to a Denny's and he basically told me the whole story of the movie.

• 44:30Josh Horowitz?

  Probably acted it out for you.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  He did.

• 44:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right?

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, he did. And, and then he was telling me about his, how cool his like, um,

• 44:38Speaker 00

  his new TV and screening room were and his projectors and stuff. And he was like kind of geeking out on that stuff. And so I thought he was, I thought he was, it was a cool story, but I never, um, I never got it offered or turned it down.

• 44:51Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. He knows your number. He's got it somewhere in the phone.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. But, uh.

• 44:55Josh Horowitz?

  Look, you did work with Malik and not a lot of actors can say that.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  And he came, that was a huge one at the time. And like, we were all like, wait, Terrence Malick is making a movie again? And then he collected 20 of the greatest actors on the planet in this movie.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:08Josh Horowitz?

  And then he cut out six of them. Like when the first, it's like, thought he was the lead.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  I know.

• 45:14Josh Horowitz?

  Unbelievable.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  I think Sean thought he was the lead too.

• 45:16Josh Horowitz?

  Everybody probably, probably thought they were the lead.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  I knew I wasn't the lead, but I knew that because of the way he was shooting it and the nature of the novel, that the only linear part of the story is Captain Gaff, me and Nick Nolte, go get that hill. We try to get the hill, can't get the hill. Go get that hill. We get the hill. And then we, right? That was the only.

• 45:37Josh Horowitz?

  You want a semblance of something to hold on to?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Well, everything else was like a, a river that could go anywhere. You know, it was, it was just like a three hour tone poem. But so I, I knew that part would stay in. But, um, yeah, that was great working with him. Great working with Nick Nolte too, who was another, another, um, getting to work with your heroes, you know?

• 45:56Josh Horowitz?

  The best voice in the business, the best.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Like when I was a teen, you know, I wasn't looking at fucking Tiger Beat. I was looking at North Dallas Forty, where I draw on the ground.

• 46:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Like in, you know.

• 46:08Josh Horowitz?

  There are too many great films. Let me mention a couple others before I let you go. Being John Malkovich.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  You don't have to let me go. We can talk.

• 46:13Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we can keep talking.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Whatever you want.

• 46:14Josh Horowitz?

  Being John Malkovich, when you read that script, Charlie Kaufman, what do you make of it? Are you like, who is this mad genius? I mean, are you all in? Do you have questions? What did you make of it at first?

• 46:26Speaker 00

  I actually have a, I told it before, but, um, I can say it.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  When I went to one of these agencies, I was with an agent from Chicago for a long time. And then finally I went to, you know, William Morris at the time, a big agency. I said, you guys have to have like a black box with your unproducible scripts. You know, like the weirdest shit you've ever had. And like, I want to know what's in that black box. And they were like, well, you know, there's this. And, and they're like, that's not weird enough. I said, I want to know the most unproducible, insane, like psychotic thing that you guys know about, that you put in a box somewhere.

• 47:08Josh Horowitz?

  Open the box.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Right, open the box. And then one of the guys said, oh, I mean, well, there's being John Malkovich. I said, excuse me? And so I read it and I said, okay, here's the deal. All you have to do is get me in the door first with whoever finances it. I have to do this role. And if you get me in the door first, I'll stay with you. And if you don't, I gotta move on. That's all you gotta do. You don't even have to deliver. Just, I just want a shot at getting in there first. So I tracked it and I knew about it before it got financed.

• 47:42Josh Horowitz?

  Did you relish, I mean, that's a pretty unlikable guy. Like when you get right down to it, like he's kind of like, I mean, the look, everything about it. And like, again, someone like you can play that because you have an inherent, like, we're gonna stick with you because you're John. Like, we, we, we, we love you. But the accoutrements, I don't know, was it fun to kind of disappear into that kind of like?

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:03Josh Horowitz?

  It's an odd character for you. It's not something I've seen you do before or since, I feel.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I mean, it's, um,

• 48:12Speaker 00

  it's also about like an inert relationship, people who are totally stuck, you know? And, and like, it was dark and funny. But again, it goes to like ambiguity, which is like, you can see character.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  It's a relatively new development that you have to equate.

• 48:30Josh Horowitz?

  Likability.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  Likability, every moral action with whatever is considered, you know,

• 48:40Speaker 00

  acceptable now or not.

• 48:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  I mean, I mean, I, there's a good chance if, say, anything was made today, they'd be like, you can't do that. You're stalking her. You're stalking her. You know, you're, you're, she gave you her emotional boundaries and you're, you're, you're putting a, you know, a boombox outside of her, like.

• 48:57Josh Horowitz?

  I guarantee there's a PhD paper on that somewhere.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. But like, you know, and, but I mean, or even in, in High Fidelity, one of the things that people like about the movie is that he is an asshole.

• 49:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  And we are all assholes. And like, you're allowed to be an asshole to fuck up and still be a decent person. Like, the range of like, people talk about range, like, can you do an English accent? And can you play like, you know, this or that? But like ranges, do you have the capacity to be like a complete moron? And somebody who's like an evolved, sophisticated, thoughtful, intelligent person? Does the same person contain that?

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Most people would say yes.

• 49:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Right? Or most people are like, do you, there must have been things you did in your twenties, you were like, I cannot believe I was that fucking dumb.

• 49:51Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  But doesn't make you a bad person.

• 49:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  So it's like, movies have to be able to admit that we're all human beings, you know, and you have to be able to laugh at the fool, like the fool is us, right?

• 50:02Josh Horowitz?

  It feels like those characters have gone to, TV's better at that nowadays.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Right, I think that's correct.

• 50:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  That space has gone to, to TV where you can have characters there.

• 50:11Josh Horowitz?

  And to your point, films, especially bigger films that have to be safe and then they have to, safety equate is equated to boring characters.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  I mean, there's a, there's a, something in, in MoMA where MoMA writes, you know, the loss of ambiguity is the highest value of art will be, right? And I do think that's true, which is, um, like, I love the French Connection, right?

• 50:37Speaker 00

  Popeye Doyle uses the N-word.

• 50:40Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 50:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's shocking, right?

• 50:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  And he had a whole thing where he didn't want to do that with Billy Friedkin for a lot of the reasons I wouldn't want to do it because I don't want to be, condone that or all that stuff. But that isn't the point. The point is, is it true for that guy in that milieu in that time?

• 50:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  And can somebody be brought up in a place that that happens? And, but, you know, is it true? Is it a great character?

• 51:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  It's a compelling character.

• 51:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Right? So you don't have to, you know, agree with a hundred percent of every, I don't know. I just think, I just think ambiguity is, is, uh, to feel like, uh, pulled in two directions. Like, you don't know how to feel, like, you're repulsed, but you still like the guy. Like, that's interesting.

• 51:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  To me, you know? And I, I think that's the.

• 51:30Josh Horowitz?

  That's where the juicy stuff is. That's the good stuff.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  Well, that's the stuff that's lost these days, I think.

• 51:35Josh Horowitz?

  One, one more I do want to bring up.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Film, but you're right, in, in cable it is too. But I guess maybe there's some shows that do that.

• 51:41Josh Horowitz?

  Love and Mercy, I want to give some love to, because that's a, that's a great performance. And it's, it's, it's a fascinating structured film that where you're kind of essentially sharing Brian with great Paul Dano.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:52Josh Horowitz?

  Um, did you form a relationship with, with Brian Wilson when you were before, during or after?

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Um, I did. You know, Paul was playing him, you know, in his Beatles phase where everything he did was public.

• 52:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Um, and I played him during that phase where he would, you know, the, the great rock and roll burnout story where he went away and was, you know, in the dark.

• 52:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  And no one knew what was happening. So, um, in a way, I was like, uh, I asked Brian and Melinda, I said, can I, you know, get to know you and talk to you about this time in your life? And, you know, with all due respect, and they were so kind to, like, let me hang out with them and talk to them and get to know them. And, you know, I talked to, you know, Gloria, the woman who, you know, saved his life many times by like emptying these bottles of these, you know? So, um, yeah, he was very, um, they were very gracious and to let me, you know, into their lives. And so I hung out with them as much as I could before the movie.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  And, um, but Brian was, uh, like legitimately, legitimately like followed by angels and shit. Like, he was, he was like this huge antenna, big raw heart with legs, you know, like, and also the, the most open, sensitive and like, but a tough motherfucker at the same time. Like a real interesting paradox in a Survivor, a real Survivor. And, um,

• 53:31Speaker 00

  this is a true story, you know, because it seems unbelievable, but it's, I, I have people who can document it, which was, we were doing the scene where, and we're shooting at all the same places where he's been at, right? So we're, we're in the studios where the breakdown when he had, that was the studio where he was making the music that he made his earlier music that still exists, right?

• 53:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  So Brian used to wear like these, um, kind of Hawaiian shirts. And there was time, you know, when he had his hair kind of slicked back.

• 54:01Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Right? And so during that scene, I had, you know, a purplish kind of Hawaiian shirt and I had my hair slicked back. It was Brian's look. And Paul and I, I found later, both used a Smile Sessions box set as like our entry point because that was the peak of Paul's version of Brian.

• 54:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 00

  The ultimate peak where, you know, Paul McCartney was chewing the carrots on vegetables. He heard that, said, oh my God, we have to scrap everything. And then he went and made Sergeant Pepper's. And you can hear Sergeant Pepper's from Smile. And that is no dissonance. I mean, it was just like, you know, I guess like Jackson Pollock breaking through with painting. It was just, it was just, it broke through, you know? But that was the first time anyone had brought orchestrations in, you know, like seven tubas and four violins. But you have to think back then before computers, like, you had to hear all of that and book all of those musicians.

• 55:05Josh Horowitz?

  Trust me, can we get all these, because it's in my brain, can we now translate it?

• 55:08Speaker 00

  Right, and doing these parts. And then, you know, you could, you'd hear him on Smile Sessions and say like, uh, third trumpet, move your mic an inch back, like one ear.

• 55:20Josh Horowitz?

  That's crazy.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  So anyway, I digress, but, so we're in the studios where he's doing all this stuff and we're doing the scene that is probably the most painful part of his life when he couldn't let go of, he wasn't ready to break free of this guy, this terrible person that was abusing him, but he was in love with Melinda and, but yet he couldn't get free.

• 55:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Right? So it was a really, really dark, terrible time. And so I was, as I said, Paul and I used Smile Sessions. So I was just like immersed in Smile Sessions. I'm sort of sitting on the floor going, how the fuck do I do this? I don't like, I don't know how to do this. Like, I don't, how do I do this scene? Like, how am I gonna do him justice, right? Or whatever, you know, it's just, it just seemed like an impossible hill to climb, you know?

• 56:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  And, um, my assistant, Malika, tapped me on the shoulder because I was just sitting on the ground listening. She went, I was like, what? And he said, Brian's here. And I went, Brian who? And she went, Wilson. He had never come to the set. He didn't talk to anybody from the movie. He had like a loose, loose relationship. He came right before we shot that scene with his hair slicked back in a Hawaiian shirt.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Everybody was just, their drawers were dropped. So he just sort of came by and then like sprinkled magic dust on us, talked for a while, and then he left. And I was just sort of like, yeah, roll the cameras.

• 56:50Josh Horowitz?

  Something's about, something's happened.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Something's gonna happen.

• 56:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  I mean, so he was like, stuff like that was just like, he didn't know this, he didn't know the schedule. He didn't, like, he just knew.

• 57:00Josh Horowitz?

  He's touched from another, another point of existence.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, it was complete shock to everybody that he, he came in at that exact moment that day.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  It was, yeah, it was like, so anyway, he was a, he was definitely touched.

• 57:21Josh Horowitz?

  Until, until you write the memoir, this conversation is gonna have to suffice because like, I mean, crossing paths with the likes of Brian Wilson, and Hunter, and Newman, and like, Al, like, and we've barely touched the tip of the iceberg. So I, I appreciate you going down memory lane for this before, before we end.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, please. Tell me, so you, you got to read this crazy thing?

• 57:42Josh Horowitz?

  I did.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  All right.

• 57:44Josh Horowitz?

  I did. Momo is the, is the graphic novel. And there's more to come, right? You have another, a whole nother.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, I had such a good time with Ignacio. We're gonna do, he's, he's worked, I have a, the story written and he's drawing it now.

• 57:57Josh Horowitz?

  So is the hope, I mean, you were, we were talking before we even started on mic, like,

• 58:03Josh Horowitz?

  it's, it's a, it's a, it's an artistic expression for you and Ignacio. And if it becomes a film, amazing, but it's also like, you feel something like, I don't know, like, something clarifying, purifying out of like, having a true, clear artistic expression, not for the first time in a while, but like, you know, as we've said, the industry sucks, basically, for a number of reasons. Does this feel like, I don't know, does it give you a little hope, a little, like, juice going forward?

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Well, it was, it seemed like, you know, as you're doing it, it's so natural because you're writing it like a film, you know?

• 58:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  First thing, the church in, in Oklahoma, and someone's talking, and then you, you write the dialogue. So it seemed like a very, very natural expression. And then, yeah, I thought, um,

• 58:47Speaker 00

  what, what you missed too is, I think what I learned is, you, you're hardwired to like, tell stories, whether it's a quick song, or this or that, or, you know, even if we're doing this podcast here, you know, you're taking me through a story of the beginning when I started, and like, you know, we're, so I think we want to tell stories. And I just didn't want to like, tell, tell a story that takes five, six years to do and all that. This was just such an easy way to do it. So I, I wish I would have thought of it earlier, but I, I, yeah, it's fun to do.

• 59:16Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  And it's a new medium, and it's fun to play around with it. And, and there's no algorithms or AI.

• 59:24Josh Horowitz?

  Nothing about this feels like this was manufactured in AI. This is like, this is, this is, feels like your brain exploded all over the page.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Perhaps, yes, which is.

• 59:33Josh Horowitz?

  Which is great, like, which is fantastic. Um, before I let you go, we end every Happy Second Fuse with some profoundly random questions, John. You ready?

• 59:41Speaker 00

  I am more than ready.

• 59:43Josh Horowitz?

  Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Oh. I would say ultimately, dog, but I love them both.

• 59:50Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, great. Do you collect anything?

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Yes. Old books.

• 59:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  But not, but specific ones by.

• 1:00:01Josh Horowitz?

  What's the treasure? What's the, like?

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  Well, I like this guy, Rudolf Steiner, who was, who was sort of like this figure that, he's like, you know, uh, I, I'm interested in these people that are like Brian Wilson or whatever, people look and channel things.

• 1:00:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  I, you know, where does that come from? Who are they? They've always fascinated me. And I think, um, like Rudolf Steiner was this guy who, he was like clairvoyant, and he started the Waldorf schools, and he started like, I think like, Stanislavski, method acting, and he had this whole thing on music and art, and he was an architect, and philosopher. And he literally wrote down biodynamic farming, like, he just wrote all the things down to what organic food movement was. Like, how did, where did it come from? I don't know. So I was, so I'm interested in his stuff, his writing, and like, uh, so I collect old books from his from like the, you know, nineteen hundred to like, nineteen twenty, like, if you can get those old first editions, because like, when you read those,

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  it's a different, it's a different thing than, you know, reading on a screen or whatever.

• 1:01:03Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  And you could, you can feel how old the book is. I think those are, those kind of like, old books excite me.

• 1:01:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:01:11Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a favorite video game of all time?

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Let me think. You mean, like, you mean like PlayStation or the old?

• 1:01:20Josh Horowitz?

  I think it could be like, Pac, Ms. Pac-Man, or it could be, you know, Grand Theft Auto VI, whatever you want.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Well, I suck at all video games, I think, ultimately.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  I had a few good years as a twelve year old with, um, Galaxia. Is that the right one? You know, and, and you, you're right.

• 1:01:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  I had a few good runs at that. But I can't really, yeah, but I can't.

• 1:01:46Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna roll the console in and see if you still got it.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think, you know, I, I wasn't good at Donkey Kong or any of those things. And I did play a,

• 1:01:59Speaker 00

  I did, I wanted to play, um, some video games because I realized that's what the movies were.

• 1:02:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  So I was like, I might as well figure out what this is.

• 1:02:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. It's a bigger industry than film now. It's by far.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  But also you can see the influence too. So a lot of the movies are, you know, it's, they're the same moves that are in the video games.

• 1:02:18Josh Horowitz?

  You talked to like Yerman D'Ororo, he's like, all the storytelling is happening in video games right now, basically.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I, so I thought it'd be silly not to get, check them out. So I, I checked some stories out and got through a couple ones. I got through one that was really, really hard, but, um, but then I thought,

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  I was kind of mad at the, the video game because it made me spend that much time trying to get past things. But I did the Callisto Protocol, which was just a gruesome.

• 1:02:46Josh Horowitz?

  It sounds painful.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  Cyberspace zombie horror show. But somehow I finished it.

• 1:02:51Josh Horowitz?

  It's like the worst exercise regimen ever, the Callisto Protocol.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  It was, uh, it was gruesome. It was gory.

• 1:02:58Josh Horowitz?

  To Koda Johnson asked me this, don't blame me, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  Mouthful, mouthful of bees?

• 1:03:08Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, there's no right answer.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  I don't think there is.

• 1:03:10Josh Horowitz?

  There isn't. Uh, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:03:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 1:03:19Josh Horowitz?

  That's an honest answer.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Right, like, I don't know.

• 1:03:22Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  I mean, I suck at, um, I'm kind of.

• 1:03:25Josh Horowitz?

  Generally?

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of like a bit of a Luddite, yeah.

• 1:03:29Josh Horowitz?

  Who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Um.

• 1:03:35Josh Horowitz?

  Does that ever happen?

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I think sometimes, or sometimes they mistake me for being in a different film.

• 1:03:45Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Or the.

• 1:03:46Josh Horowitz?

  There's the very famous video, The American Beauty Woman. Have you seen?

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, where she thought I was Kevin Spacey.

• 1:03:52Josh Horowitz?

  She was, you were very sweet about it, for the record. She insisted you were in American Beauty, and you had to gently say, no.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Remember, I remember one guy, um, I was at some political event, and some congressman was like, hey, Ferris Bueller. I, I didn't know whether he had mistook, mistaken me, or he was insulting me, or, but it was just like kind of a New York thing.

• 1:04:15Josh Horowitz?

  Ferris Bueller, hey.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Ferris Bueller.

• 1:04:18Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, Matthew's great too, but.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  No, he's awesome. But, uh, but I, I don't, I don't know if he thought I was Ferris Bueller, or he was just like,

• 1:04:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Speaker 00

  You're one of those guys.

• 1:04:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. It's better than Kevin Spacey. We'll take Matthew Broderick over that. Uh, what's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  Good question.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  The worst note a director's ever given me. Like, you know what? I probably blocked it out.

• 1:04:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, well, that's probably for the best.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  Because I can't remember.

• 1:04:50Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a type of direction that you just don't respond to? Like, what's an ideal versus a, an unhelpful direction?

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  You know, uh,

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  it's kind of a, maybe a pretentious answer, but, um, as long as the overall aesthetic of the film is clear, there's lots of ways to make movies, right?

• 1:05:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  You know, like, uh, David Krotenberg, for example, he's, every, he wants you to do every line, like when I did Maps of the Stars, he wants you to do every line, line as written.

• 1:05:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  And even with emphasis, you know, is not was.

• 1:05:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  And, but he has a very clear version to it, because he like, he makes things slower than naturalism.

• 1:05:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  So that it starts to feel like you're being lulled into some trance, right?

• 1:05:38Josh Horowitz?

  It works, his films are hypnotic, yeah.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, you know.

• 1:05:41Josh Horowitz?

  There's a rhyme to the reason.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  There's a reason why he's doing that, right? Now, and then you could work with Woody Allen, and Woody Allen literally would say, and there were some of the best scripts you've ever read. I mean, I know what's happened to him later, but.

• 1:05:54Josh Horowitz?

  The, the work is undeniable.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Working with him was, you know, he was certainly very assured. And he'd have the best written scripts you could read. And I was doing this great monologue, and he came up to me, he says, you know, hey, you know, just step on it, you know, if you don't want to say these words, say your own, but like, put some yinos and ans in there, and, you know, just make it your own.

• 1:06:14Josh Horowitz?

  And one of the great writers gave you that.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  And I was like, no, no, but I said, it's really good.

• 1:06:19Josh Horowitz?

  You're really good at this.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  Like, I, I was just wanted to get what he wrote.

• 1:06:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  But he just looked at me and went, trust me, it's not that good. And he walked away. But the point of it was, he didn't want it to sound written.

• 1:06:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  He didn't want, he didn't, that wasn't his goal. He wanted it to sound like musically, like people are talking. And he also knew that when actors come up with stuff, all of a sudden, you know, there's a lot, there's a little energy, right? So he, that was his aesthetic, right?

• 1:06:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  And that worked.

• 1:06:47Josh Horowitz?

  As long as there's a consistency, as you say, it's like, like.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  So, you know, what you don't want to do is get a direction from someone, like, you have to have a point of view.

• 1:06:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  To have a coherent thought. If you don't have any point of view, then your, your notes, if you don't have a point of view on the material, then you're probably gonna just be saying, talking shit.

• 1:07:07Josh Horowitz?

  Diane Weist's doing Don't Speak, iconic.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was, uh, that was in, um, that was improvised.

• 1:07:14Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Josh Horowitz?

  Both over Broadway, and she won her, her an Oscar.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that, you know, and then at the end, Chaz did it to me.

• 1:07:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Right, that was, you know, or like when, um, yeah, so there's a lot of room for that. Like, when I, I usually write where I, I'm hoping I'm gonna be in it, um, and thinking I'm gonna be in it. But what I also do is I'll, especially when you're writing comedies or something, I'll get it like seventy to eighty percent done, but I don't want to finish it because I want the actors to finish it. Right?

• 1:07:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  And then, so if I'm working with like Alan Arkin, or my sister Joan, or Dan Aykroyd, I know, I'm, I know what they're gonna do. They're gonna come in and they're gonna have these things that they want to do, and they're gonna look at the scene, and they're gonna take the good parts of the scene, but they're gonna challenge, they're gonna make it better.

• 1:08:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, give them the bones.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  And like, we should, you know, and then one of the other producers was like, whoa, what is he doing to script? I said, you should be so lucky that Alan, you should be so lucky Alan Arkin wants to make the script better, like, just.

• 1:08:12Josh Horowitz?

  Let him cook.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Like, watch and learn. Like, these guys are great. And, um, so then also like, and then the actors, when they sort of finish it, and then they can come up with. The dialogue that is just as good as anything we've written, then they own it in a way that

• 1:08:28Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  That you can see on film, you know.

• 1:08:31Josh Horowitz?

  Sounds awesome.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  So there's all those types of things, but and then there's, but there's no one way to work. Right. Like I worked with Sir Ben Kingsley and he came on and we were doing a political vaudeville thing with Mark Lanier at War Inc. And we had Dan and, and, um, and he loved it and he wanted to do it. And he came to Bulgaria and he said, one thing, don't change the script. I want to memorize what you have and I want to do what's written. I was like, you got it.

• 1:09:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Of course. You got it. And then, you know, so you'd have these long things and he came, and he came in like Bulgaria.

• 1:09:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  Like got into the Bulgarian garbage truck. I was like boom, boom, boom, boom, like an assassin, nailed it. You know, whereas other actors, they, they don't do well if, unless they make it sort of improvisational.

• 1:09:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  You know, it doesn't work, right?

• 1:09:26Josh Horowitz?

  What size does not fit all you got to do.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Or like, like I, I remember the, in Jennifer Tilly, who I think she won an Oscar or got nominated.

• 1:09:33Josh Horowitz?

  She got nominated. Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Should have won. She was so funny. Um, but her dialogue was written and then at some point her and Woody said, look, just don't stop talking. And she just talked. She just, she just went on and on, but none of that was written. That was just Jennifer fucking going.

• 1:09:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  So that

• 1:09:55Josh Horowitz?

  Know the tools that you've got and make it that, take advantage of them when you can.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's different things for different, you know, it depends on the kind of movie it is, or you know, who the actors are.

• 1:10:03Josh Horowitz?

  Improv on a Fincher set and improv on, you know.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Josh Horowitz?

  Know your, know the right vibe. All right. Last thing. Happy, sad, confused. Actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen. You're in a better mood.

• 1:10:16Josh Horowitz?

  First, first one that comes to mind.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  There are so many. Well, I love CNN just because I, I just love CNN. Um,

• 1:10:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Movie that makes you sad?

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  Movie that, um, guts you?

• 1:10:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Puts you through the emotional wringer. Maybe there's a tear or two.

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. Devastating movie?

• 1:10:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  This will be good because it's not a normal one, but, uh, there is a movie Sidney Lamet and Sean Connery like had a very interesting time together where Sean was like a, you know, big movie star, but wanted to do deeper work.

• 1:10:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  And Sidney was a up and coming director who wanted to do great work and they sort of met and did a couple of movies together.

• 1:11:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  That are so dark and so devastating. They're, they, yeah, you're, you're just, one of them is called The Hill.

• 1:11:16Josh Horowitz?

  I've heard of this film. I've never seen it.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  With Ozzy Davis.

• 1:11:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  And Rory, uh, can you, the, the Python-esque actor, the, the, you know, he was in, um, Three Musketeers. He was in, he's Veruca Salt's dad, like the great.

• 1:11:30Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. Okay.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Right. And he's in it in dramatic role and

• 1:11:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  And Sean Connery's in it and it

• 1:11:36Josh Horowitz?

  It'll take you to some dark places.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  Is brutal.

• 1:11:39Josh Horowitz?

  I'm in.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  Um, you know, brutal, like in the Paths of Glory kind of way. And then there was another one he made with him. It's almost like a Pinterest thing and I can't remember the name of it, but he plays a detective in Scotland who has to investigate, um, like a child murder case.

• 1:11:59Josh Horowitz?

  Sounds fun.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  And well, it's, you asked me like, it's

• 1:12:04Josh Horowitz?

  No, I'm in.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  Devastating?

• 1:12:05Josh Horowitz?

  I'm in for devastating when Matt Connery, any day of the week. I'll take two of them.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  They're, I mean, they're

• 1:12:13Josh Horowitz?

  Dark. There's our tip of the day. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  That I get confused if I eat it or?

• 1:12:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Why would people eat that? I don't want that around me.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Um, anything with anchovies.

• 1:12:29Josh Horowitz?

  Just too, too much, too strong too.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  I don't understand the allure of really, really, really smelly canned fish. Like, I don't want to eat that. I don't even want to be around it. I don't want to look at it.

• 1:12:41Josh Horowitz?

  Triggering. Yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Josh Horowitz?

  A hundred percent on the test.

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Thank you, sir.

• 1:12:45Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, man. This has been such a treat. Honestly, as you can tell, I'm a huge fan of all your work and we just hit the tip of the iceberg. But most importantly, hopefully we've spread the good word. We got to support John Cusack and his crazy, amazing endeavors. Momo is the graphic novel. There's going to be more of this. If you've ever wanted to see John's brain exploited onto some beautiful pages illustrated by Ignatia Noe.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  And there will be, um, the next printings, we're going to, are going to have this QR code so that when you go and see music like

• 1:13:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  That comes on the radio or you see Hawaii 50 on a TV, you'll be able to press a QR code and hear it and see it. So, you know, there's tricks.

• 1:13:26Josh Horowitz?

  I love it. You've always got tricks up your sleeve. Keep creating, whatever the medium will follow you. Um, John, it's been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  Pleasure's mine.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Whitney. And I'm Katie. And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire. We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't do a lot of extra talking and when we do, it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some loser murderer or scammer. You'll laugh, but only at the people who deserve it. Like which serial killer would you most like to shove into a locker? BTK and his awful poetry. Dude got caught because he didn't understand what a floppy disk was. We look for the stranger than fiction stories, like the case of Patty James, a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing. Or Howard Walmsley, a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery, fleeced local businesses out of thousands and then became a romance

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  scammer. We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of. Cults, scammers, killers. So come find your next great binge. Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Friday.