60: She Stalked Her Best Friend Over a Man…But it Was All a Lie | The Murder of Michelle Le

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 1:27Speaker 06

  I understand that at one point you and Michelle were close friends, is that right? How do you feel about the fact that she's missing? I don't know Michelle anymore. I stopped knowing her a long time ago. We understand that you guys had a mutual relationship.

• 1:54Speaker 07

  You will be honest with me and remind her. Otherwise, I will take you on the bus.

• 2:03Annie Elise?

  26-year-old Michelle Lay was no stranger to long days at the hospital. She was still in nursing school and only six months away from graduation. She was also getting straight A's, which is definitely worth noting, especially when we're talking about nursing school. Nursing school is incredibly grueling. It is very tiring and exhausting. Now, at this point, she and her classmates were doing their clinical training at Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Hayward, California. This day in particular was Friday, May 27, 2011. So at 6:55 PM, Michelle told her nursing instructor that she needed to go run out to her car, grab something, that it would only take a few minutes, and that she would be right back.

• 2:44Annie Elise?

  Michelle was then seen on security camera footage in her all-white scrubs, walking across the skybridge in between the hospital and the garage. She walked out onto the third floor of the parking garage, headed right toward her white 2011 Honda CR-V. But before she even made it to her car, when she was right around the middle of the parking garage, she suddenly stopped. Now, there's only a split second between Michelle seemingly noticing something that was near her car, stopping, and then starting to move in the other direction, away from her car. Almost as if she's unsure about something that she's seeing and her body is reacting before she can even think what she's doing. Kind of like stopping, getting caught off guard, turning around, walking the different

• 3:29Annie Elise?

  direction, but still in the middle of this parking garage. Now, this time, she pauses for a few seconds longer. Then she starts walking in the opposite direction again, eventually disappearing out of sight of the cameras. Now, when we think of missing persons cases, we often think of the stereotypes. Someone walking alone at night, somewhere isolated, it's dark. We very rarely think of a nurse who is in training going missing from a parking garage at a busy hospital at 6:55 at night. So what was it that Michelle saw near her car that made her pause and start walking the other direction? And why, despite moving away from her car, did she seem so normal?

• 4:14Annie Elise?

  Not frantic, not scared for her life, just kind of confused? Now, the answer to those questions, that is very important, because that was the last time that Michelle was ever seen again. Hey, guys. My name is Annie Elise. This is 10 to Life. Let's jump right in. Also, really quickly before we get started, wanted to let you know that our fall merch collection is officially on sale. And you guys have been asking, you know that at the start of my episodes, sometimes I

• 4:56Annie Elise?

  say, "I hope you're having a nice day, but I'm about to ruin it." It's officially on merch. Also, lots of seasonal stuff, lots of spooky stuff, our classic "Make It Make Sense" with the eyes in a hoodie version, lots of stuff. So you can grab all of it while it lasts. It's at annieelise.com. Quantities are limited, though, and the merch shop is going to be closing very soon. So put those orders in now, whether it's for you, a gift, holiday gift, whatever. You can go shop now, annieelise.com. As if Michelle's behavior on the CCTV footage wasn't strange enough, just 17 minutes later, her car was seen speeding out of the garage. And when I say speeding, there's no exaggeration there.

• 5:38Annie Elise?

  Which was weird, because the last time we saw Michelle, she wasn't acting like she was in any kind of rush. She was walking at a normal pace, like anybody else would, be who was taking a break from work to, you know, grab something from their car, a phone charger, a snack, whatever it might be. And remember, Michelle had just told her instructor that she just needed to grab something and that she would be back in five or 10 minutes. So the fact that now her car was leaving the garage and speeding at that, that was very weird. It was also only a little after 7:00 PM. And Michelle's shift, it wasn't over until 9:00 PM. Now, I personally have never been through nursing school. But like I said earlier, I've heard it's pretty intense and pretty strict.

• 6:20Annie Elise?

  So correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that they just let people leave two hours early during their clinical hours. Those hours have to be met and signed off on before you can even graduate. And Michelle took her studies very seriously. She of all people would have known that lying to an instructor and then skipping out, that could have serious negative consequences. Then, two hours later, it was 9:00 PM. And Michelle's classmates were more than eager to not only leave the hospital and clock out and get some much-needed rest for the weekend, but they were also kind of wondering where Michelle was. Michelle herself even had plans that weekend. She was going to travel to Reno to go visit some friends of hers.

• 7:03Annie Elise?

  But Michelle's instructor was worried now, because Michelle had never come back after going out to her car. And like I said, she was a really good student, so her instructor knew that she was not the type of person to lie and skip the rest of class. That alone was enough to concern her. But then there was also something even more concerning. Michelle's purse and wallet were still inside the classroom. Her IDs and all of her personal credit cards and debit cards were inside her wallet, too. All of her nursing supplies, right there, too. The only things that Michelle had taken with her when she went to her car was her car keys and her phone. If Michelle had really planned to leave early, she definitely would have taken everything

• 7:48Annie Elise?

  with her, right? So the whole point is that her instructor just knew in her gut that something was wrong here. So she decided to trace Michelle's most likely steps. But her bad feeling was strong enough that she also brought a hospital security guard with her to double-check. Then she walked through the hospital, across the bridge, and into the parking garage. And I'm not sure if Michelle herself had assigned parking, or if she could just park in any spot or the same spot every day, I don't really know. But Michelle's instructor knew exactly where Michelle parked, and she knew where to look for her car. She knew that she usually parked on the third floor, in the general area, and you can actually

• 8:29Annie Elise?

  see Michelle's instructor on CCTV footage, taking that same path that Michelle had taken. That is, of course, until she reached the third floor and realized that, just like Michelle, Michelle's car was gone. Well, actually, let me correct that really quick. Michelle's car was gone from the parking spot that it normally was parked in. And right around the same time that her instructor and the security guard were standing on the third floor, you know, confused and looking around, a car started rounding the corner onto that floor. The car was going way too fast for a parking garage, and it definitely was way too fast to be making those tight turns.

• 9:11Annie Elise?

  In fact, that's what made the security guard and Michelle's instructor kind of look up and see what was going on in the first place. It caught them off guard. And here's where things get weird. That car was a white 2011 Honda CR-V, identical to the one that Michelle drove. But as soon as the car turned that corner and the driver saw these two people looking toward the area where Michelle's car normally would have been parked, they abruptly stopped. Then, they started backing up, heading in the opposite direction, all the way toward the bottom of the garage, as if they're trying to get away. So Michelle's instructor started waving, trying to get the attention of the driver, trying to get the car to stop.

• 9:56Annie Elise?

  She knew that it was Michelle's car, but for the life of her, she couldn't understand why Michelle would be purposely avoiding her like that. I mean, yeah, nursing school is strict, we talked about that. But if Michelle had gotten out of the car and started apologizing, saying that something had come up, maybe there was some kind of emergency, she had to leave because of that, just talking to her instructor, they probably could have figured everything out. They could have, you know, come to a resolution. Not to mention, even if Michelle had left willingly and was embarrassed about it, she still needed to go back inside for her purse and her wallet, right? Even if it meant an awkward run-in with her instructor. That's not something that you can just leave behind and then figure out later.

• 10:40Annie Elise?

  But keep in mind, now, it was dark out at this point. And even though the instructor knew that it was Michelle's car, she couldn't see well enough inside to know for sure whether it was Michelle driving or not. Needless to say, Michelle's instructor was concerned. She knew nothing about what had happened over the course of the last couple of hours. She thought it was normal, but she was concerned now, so thankfully she went to the police and she reported Michelle as a missing person. Because Michelle wasn't at all the type of person to just take off, not tell anyone where she was going, and not come back. Even on a smaller scale, leaving class in the middle of her shift, that was unlike Michelle.

• 11:21Annie Elise?

  Michelle was described as joyful, carefree, beautiful, inside and out. She was someone who truly put everyone else's needs before her own. Growing up, her entire family had always been extremely close. And not just her immediate family, like her parents and her brother Michael or her cousin Christine, who had lived with her family her whole life, but her whole extended family was incredibly close too. To the Lays, family was everything. They constantly had family celebrations and get togethers, all where multiple aunts, uncles, cousins, 15 cousins to be exact, they would all come over and just fill the house with love and laughter.

• 12:01Annie Elise?

  And when Michelle's mother unexpectedly passed away, something in Michelle changed. Everyone else in the family had already been extremely close, yes, but instead of letting her grief consume her, Michelle stepped up and she really tried her hardest to fill some of the missing void by her mother's death. Now, of course, she could never fully become her mother, but she was doing a pretty good job at it. Michelle's brother Michael even said that during that point in time, Michelle really took on the maternal role in the family. She was always there for him like a mother would have been. She taught him how to drive, how to cook, how to take care of himself. And even though Michelle had really taken on a lot of those extra responsibilities,

• 12:44Annie Elise?

  responsibilities she hadn't expected or anticipated, she still made sure to take time and take care of herself and pursue her own dreams. She wanted to make sure that she could make her mom proud. And that's actually how she even got into nursing. Michelle's mother had also been a nurse, one of those nurses that was so nurturing that she made every single patient feel like they were a part of her family. And they truly were being well taken care of. Seeing the kind of nurse that her mom was, it made Michelle want to do that exact same thing. She wanted to help people, and she knew that she was genuinely making a difference in her work and in these patients' lives. So all of that to say, there was never any question in the minds of Michelle's friends

• 13:28Annie Elise?

  and family about whether she had left willingly that day. This was not like her. So the day after Michelle was reported missing, a huge group of her loved ones and her friends went to the police station to vouch for her, to explain just how completely out of character this truly was. Which, it sucks, but in a lot of missing persons cases, this kind of initial step, it does have to happen. Because unfortunately, sometimes family members have to prove why the investigators should even take things seriously. And why they should jump on it immediately rather than thinking, oh, this person just went off, needed a break, they'll come back when they're ready, once they're well rested. Because that's not what happens, as we know.

• 14:10Annie Elise?

  Even though we don't talk about it as probably often, in some rare cases though, it is true. People really do want to disappear, and they want to step away from everything they've ever known and just have a break or, you know, indefinitely disappear. However luckily, it did seem that investigators took Michelle's case pretty seriously right away. Especially after multiple different red flags ended up being brought to light that day. And, let me just tell you, there were quite a few of them. So I want to get into some of them right now. The first was obvious. Michelle never made it to Reno for the trip that she had planned that weekend. Her friends and family had expected as much, given that she was missing, so they weren't

• 14:53Annie Elise?

  surprised, but obviously, it was still an important development. They needed to bring this to the detectives. The first major red flag though, was actually back at the parking garage. After Michelle's instructor saw her car back out and then drive off, she never saw it again. And when detectives went to go check out the scene, her car still wasn't there. But that wasn't the most concerning part of it. They also went to the spot where Michelle's car had normally been parked and where it had been parked the night before. And there, they did find something. Blood. And a pretty significant amount of it. Understandably, this was a terrifying discovery.

• 15:35Annie Elise?

  Something had clearly happened to Michelle to make her disappear. And even scarier, she had likely been hurt in the process. Whoever says saving money is hard, doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive, save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is way better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states. All right, quick little sponsor break, and I have to tell you about the makeup graveyard that we all have. You know, the products that you buy, you love for a week, maybe you're influenced on TikTok

• 16:19Annie Elise?

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• 17:03Annie Elise?

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• 17:46Annie Elise?

  and ovaries into two easy capsules a day. And you get the B12, iron, zinc, and vitamin A that supports everyday wellness, but without the cooking. Plus, it's gluten-free, non-GMO, and third-party tested. So it's ancient nutrition that is made simple for modern women. And look, when I first heard about this, I was kind of like, what on earth are you even talking about? But then, like when I was like, eating organ meat, like, are you, do you know who I am? Like, are you out of your mind? Like, no, not for me. But when I started looking into it and the benefits from it, and hi, you don't have to actually eat it here, you know, you just take the capsules, I was like, this is going to be a game changer for me, and I'm going to do it because I realize how great these ingredients are. Now, for a limited time only, you can shop their biggest sale of the year.

• 18:31Annie Elise?

  Just visit primalqueen.com. That's primalqueen.com, and you will get their huge holiday sale. Then, after you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support the show, let them know I sent you. Go get it, check it out, I promise you, it's all the rage right now. Not too long after this discovery, at around 9:00 a.m., Michelle's car then was found, but it had been abandoned. And the interesting thing was, it wasn't hundreds of miles away in some other city or county, it was actually just a few blocks away from the hospital. Investigators weren't expecting to find too much inside the car because, remember when Michelle went out to the garage, she only had taken her keys and her phone with her anyway.

• 19:15Annie Elise?

  Everything else was still inside the hospital. But there were two things inside her car that made the investigators even more concerned about Michelle's whereabouts and what happened. The first was more blood. Now, just based on the blood in the parking garage and then finding blood inside the car, it seemed like someone had done something to Michelle, all while she was standing next to her car, because then there was the spillage onto the floor of the garage. Then it appeared, they shoved her inside, which is what caused the blood to go inside of the car, and took off. The second thing was that the hospital ID badge was found, which, you would think, okay, maybe that's pretty normal. Michelle was working in the hospital that night, they make you badge in, badge out of certain areas.

• 19:58Annie Elise?

  It's also how a lot of people clock in and out, or get access to certain areas of the hospital, medications, things like that. Except this wasn't Michelle's badge. Her name and face weren't on it. It belonged to someone completely different.

• 20:17Annie Elise?

  So had the person on this badge done something to Michelle and then accidentally left their literal name and face behind as a clue? Well, the badge belonged to a woman by the name of Elaine San Augustin, a staff member at Samuel Merritt University, Michelle's nursing school. Now, as much as this seemed like a potential clue, it was very quickly determined not to be anything helpful. And I'm not sure if this woman hadn't even started working yet, or if maybe she was already working and investigators were able to verify her alibi that night. I don't know. But either way, she didn't become a person of interest or a suspect in all of this. Not to mention, if she had followed Michelle to her car from inside the hospital, the

• 21:02Annie Elise?

  cameras definitely would have picked up on that, since they obviously captured Michelle walking almost the entire way to her car. So it seemed like whoever had done this and done something to Michelle had already been waiting for her car inside of it. Maybe Michelle had even seen them, and maybe that's why she was acting strangely on that CCTV footage, pausing, walking away from her car, going the opposite direction. Something wasn't right here. But also, if this woman wasn't a person of interest or even a suspect, then how had her badge gotten inside Michelle's car? And then, there was also another big red flag, another strange development.

• 21:44Annie Elise?

  Michelle's friends and family got in touch with the police because they had something they knew they needed to show the authorities right away. They were getting text messages from Michelle. Or, let me rephrase that. They were getting text messages from Michelle's phone. But something was very clearly off about these messages. There was never a moment where any of her family actually thought that these texts were coming from Michelle herself. They knew that someone had her phone and that someone was texting them pretending to be Michelle. But why? Now, these were all texts sent to different people. They read, "I just needed some time without anyone." Another, "I had a bad night last night."

• 22:28Annie Elise?

  Another, "I don't really want to talk to anyone right now." And then another one said, "I'm sick." Then, another text sent to someone said that Michelle was on her way to Reno still, which didn't really seem possible, considering that her car and her purse, all of her money, those were now with the police in police custody. And like I said earlier, she never did show up in Reno. So even though all of these text messages sounded pretty, I don't know, scatterbrained and gave different reasons for why Michelle wasn't responding, why she wasn't answering calls or text messages, they did have one thing in common. They were all excuses for why Michelle was unavailable.

• 23:11Annie Elise?

  So one thing was for certain here. Michelle had not left willingly. The blood found in her car and in the parking garage, it was identified as hers, which then made the search for her even more serious. Her friends and family were all hoping and praying for a miracle, that somehow Michelle was still alive somewhere, that something happened, maybe she was badly hurt and confused, but she was alive. The community was very quick to come together, too. It didn't take much for people to really want to help find this beautiful missing nursing student, this beautiful woman with a heart of gold.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  ... for you right now. Look at this. This morning, volunteers are searching for missing nursing student Michelle Lee. They started arriving at a command center in Hayward about an hour ago. Mark Clas, the founder of the Clas Kids Foundation, is one of the organizers of this expanded search, and more searches are planned tomorrow and on Sunday.

• 24:07Annie Elise?

  Missing Bay area nursing student Michelle Lee. They haven't seen her since May 27th. Their family is concerned, and they think she's out there somewhere, so they're looking this morning in Hayward. Each search this weekend, all three are going to begin on Cypress Avenue in Hayward. Investigators, though, they were worried that the case might take a darker turn than everyone was hoping for. And what everyone was really struggling with was, who would have wanted to hurt someone like Michelle? She was kind. She was liked. She was well-liked by everyone. She liked everyone. She didn't get into arguments with other people. And I know that not everyone that goes missing has enemies, so that's not what I'm trying to imply at all.

• 24:50Annie Elise?

  But in a lot of the cases, there are usually some people who stand out a little more than everyone else. An ex-boyfriend, an abusive husband, somebody jealous. But in this case, no. That wasn't ever something that the investigators were looking into, not with Michelle. So maybe it was random. Maybe it was a kidnapping or some kind of crime of opportunity. But that didn't really make much sense either. I mean, especially when investigators learned that the security badge that had been left behind belonging to Elaine, it had been reported missing just days before Michelle had disappeared. Which that didn't seem like a coincidence at all.

• 25:33Annie Elise?

  It seemed connected, almost as if this had been planned out. Which if that were the case, that meant that this was likely personal. But again, who in Michelle's life would want to hurt her? It wasn't adding up. When detectives started asking the people closest to her, you know, who could have been responsible for this? Did she have any enemies? What do you think? Everybody was pretty much stumped. She didn't have any known enemies, and she didn't have any drama or beef with anyone. Honestly, she was just too busy for any of that. Still, though, investigators couldn't just take that at face value. They needed to investigate. So they started looking closely at everyone in Michelle's life, even people who, on

• 26:16Annie Elise?

  the surface, didn't seem capable of hurting her. Because at this point, they really couldn't afford to make any assumptions. Until someone could officially be ruled out, everyone had to be looked at. And then it hit them. There actually was someone that Michelle didn't necessarily get along with. But even then, the tension between them had never really seemed very serious, not serious enough for anyone to think that this person would actually want to hurt Michelle, but they obviously still needed to look into it. This person was named Giselle Esteban, and it turns out that Giselle and Michelle went way back. They had known each other since high school, and at one point in their lives, they were

• 27:01Annie Elise?

  really close. After high school, they kept in touch. Giselle went to San Francisco State University, and Michelle went to San Jose State University. And even though they didn't go to the same college, they still lived pretty close to one another, and they hung out often. But then something happened between the two of them. Now, the full extent of it, Michelle's family wasn't totally aware of. I mean, they knew that something had happened, and they knew that there was a guy involved, but they didn't know the whole story. What they did know is that for years, Giselle had made it clear how much she disliked Michelle because of whatever this happened with this guy. But again, Michelle's family, they didn't know all of the details.

• 27:44Annie Elise?

  It didn't sound like a whole lot of information, or even enough to really suspect Giselle of potentially harming Michelle, but detectives didn't have much to go on, and they were willing to look into anything at this point. So on May 28th, one of the lead detectives went to Giselle's apartment, and they ended up interviewing her for around two hours. Now, right away, the vibes seemed off. When the detective introduced himself and said that he was there about Michelle, Giselle's response was, quote, "Oh, God, what about her?" They explained that Michelle was missing, and that they were trying to talk to anyone who might have been able to help and figure out where Michelle was so that they could

• 28:27Annie Elise?

  find her, and she just seemed a little, not disinterested, but kind of cold. Giselle told them she couldn't help. She claimed that she had been trying to get in touch with Michelle for over a week now at this point, but that she had no response. Which that alone was weird, because from the way that Michelle's family told it and how they described it, she and Giselle were not friends anymore, let alone on speaking terms. But then, Giselle explained that the reason that she had even been texting Michelle was so that she could tell her to stay away from her daughter. And the detective was probably, I mean, I would imagine, just as confused as you are right now. Normally, you hear them say, "Stay away from my man, stay away from this," not "Stay

• 29:12Annie Elise?

  away from my daughter." Because, I mean, hold on, all we knew up until this point was that these two weren't friends anymore. So what did Giselle's daughter have to do with any of this? And more than that, why was she telling Michelle to stay away from her? But the more that Giselle talked, the more that the detectives were able to piece together why it seemed Giselle and Michelle weren't friends anymore. Giselle described Michelle as “my best friend who slept with my then fiance.” You see, Giselle shared a five-year-old daughter with a man named Scott. At one point, she and Scott had been engaged. They were planning to get married to one another. They already had a child together, and they were building a life together.

• 29:55Annie Elise?

  But according to Giselle, Michelle came between them. Apparently, Michelle and Scott had slept together, and Giselle believed that that was ultimately what ended their engagement, that because they slept together, it tore her life and her family apart. And she had never really forgiven Michelle for that, which obviously was really interesting information to hear. When the detectives walked into Giselle’s apartment that night, he wasn’t sure what to expect. But now, he was getting the full backstory on why Michelle and Giselle weren’t close anymore. And look, if what Giselle was saying was true, she had every right to not like Michelle and to be angry with her. I think most of us would probably stop being friends with someone who did that.

• 30:37Annie Elise?

  Again, though, if that’s actually what happened. But what stood out was just how much animosity Giselle still seemed to have toward Michelle, even while talking to the detective. This wasn’t just a “we had a falling out, we don’t speak anymore, I hate her guts.” There was still a lot of current anger there. So suddenly, investigators now had something that they really hadn’t had before: possible motive. And what happened next, it definitely was not going to help Giselle’s case in the least. The detective asked if he could see the text messages that Giselle supposedly had sent

• 31:20Annie Elise?

  over to Michelle over the last week, trying to see a little bit of the paper trail, the digital trail. And to his surprise, Giselle said no, not because she didn’t want to show him, but because the text messages had apparently been deleted. When they asked Giselle why she would have deleted them, she said that she didn’t delete them. It was just something automatic that her phone did. Except, the problem with that is the detectives could clearly see other text messages on her phone that were from much farther back than just a week. And Giselle was kind of like, “Yeah, well, that’s because I manually saved those text messages,” which I don’t even know that that’s a thing. I mean, and I know that this was 2011, but I can’t think of a phone that I ever had

• 32:04Annie Elise?

  my whole life where I manually chose to save text messages or they would be automatically deleted. Not after a week, maybe after a year or 30 days even, but not after a week. So I mean, that was definitely something that they were noting. This didn’t seem right. But then, the detective asked Giselle where she had been the day and night before. Giselle explained that earlier in the day, she had volunteered at her daughter’s school. Then, she came home and she took a small nap. Then, at 4:15 PM, she says that she was headed to a nearby hospital to talk about insurance coverage because she was pregnant with another baby and another baby of Scott’s, even

• 32:46Annie Elise?

  though they had officially broken up years earlier. And interestingly enough, the hospital that she went to, it was Kaiser Permanente in Howard, the same one that Michelle was working at. Which, that all yeah, it looks very, very weird because Giselle knew that. She knew that Michelle was doing her clinicals there, and we’ll get into how she knew that in a second here. But Giselle explained that she had originally planned to go to the Union City Kaiser Hospital, only it was closed, so the one in Howard ended up being her only option. So, she headed to the hospital, and she parked on the floor near the maternity ward.

• 33:28Annie Elise?

  However, unfortunately for her, she said that the member services department was closed. So she says she used the bathroom, and then she headed back to her car. After all of that, Giselle said it was around 6 o’clock, maybe 6:30 PM, give or take. That includes the drive, the parking, the bathroom, and back to the car. But then, what she said next had the detective stunned. She claimed that as she was driving away, she looked over toward the skybridge between the hospital and the parking garage, and she saw Michelle walking towards her and towards the garage. And when I say “walking towards her,” what I mean by that is walking towards the general area. Giselle didn’t make it seem like Michelle had actually seen her and was walking toward her specific car.

• 34:13Annie Elise?

  She claimed that Michelle was still so far away that she couldn’t even see her facial expressions or her demeanor, but she said that she was “pretty sure that it was her.” So the detective kept going. He asked, “Okay, well, how was your encounter with Michelle? How had that gone?” And something about the way that he worded that question, it seemed to set Giselle off. Because then she started getting weird. She asked if she should even be speaking to him. The detective, though, reassured her that, you know, she wasn’t under arrest, she wasn’t being investigated, they were just interviewing anyone that they possibly could so that they could get more information on Michelle’s life, her background, what could have possibly happened to her.

• 34:55Annie Elise?

  But by this point, Giselle’s guard was up. She told the detective that if that was the case, they had a lot of other people that they needed to talk to. And that’s because, according to her, Michelle “slept with a lot of other people’s boyfriends.” Now, maybe the most interesting part of this entire interview was that Giselle claimed that she couldn’t remember if she and Michelle had actually talked or had even gotten into an argument that day. Which, keep in mind, this was literally the day after Michelle went missing, not months later, not years later, the very next day. So to be like, “Oh, I don’t even remember if we talked, and I don’t remember if we got into an argument, that was 24 hours ago.

• 35:38Annie Elise?

  Like, I don’t know, like, what are you talking about, girl? Like, what are you talking about?” Giselle said that all that she remembered was that she was already in her car driving when she first saw Michelle. Apparently, the reason for her lack of memory in all of this was that she hadn’t been taking some of her medication that she was on since she was three months pregnant, which none of this added up, and none of it was looking good. And somehow, it got even worse, if you can believe it. The detective continued asking Giselle questions that really should have been pretty easy to answer, yes or no questions, like, “Had she ever been inside Michelle’s new car?” To which, Giselle responded that she didn’t remember, but she didn’t think so, also

• 36:22Annie Elise?

  saying she didn’t even know that Michelle had a new car. Then Giselle was asked if there was any possibility that she not only had been inside Michelle’s car, but had actually been driving it on Friday night. And again, she said she didn’t remember, which, hello, that seems like a pretty easy yes or no question. You either were or weren’t driving your friend’s car that night, 24 hours earlier. But according to Giselle, she couldn’t remember. So even though they continued to tell Giselle that she wasn’t under arrest, wasn’t a person of interest, because if the truth was, at this point, she really wasn’t, they still did want her to come into the station for a more formal interview.

• 37:02Annie Elise?

  And this interview at the station, it was really important because it gave the investigators even more background on Giselle and Michelle’s relationship.

• 37:11Speaker 06

  I understand at one point, you and Michelle were close friends, is that right?

• 37:16Speaker 07

  Considered her my sister.

• 37:19Speaker 06

  And then, what happened?

• 37:22Speaker 07

  She made a mistake, Scott made a mistake.

• 37:25Speaker 06

  And then, was that when you were with Scott, or had you guys broken up, or?

• 37:30Speaker 07

  No, we were still together, maybe the mistake was.

• 37:33Annie Elise?

  Again, there’s this whole story about how they were as close as sisters, and then Michelle and Scott slept together, twice, which is why they stopped being friends.

• 37:43Speaker 06

  How do you feel about the fact that she’s missing?

• 37:46Speaker 07

  I wish you guys would find her already.

• 37:51Speaker 06

  And since you and Michelle used to be so close, what do you think is going on with her?

• 37:59Speaker 07

  I don’t know, I don’t know who she is anymore.

• 38:01Speaker 06

  But as far as you know, this would be very unusual for her, right? To have just gone missing?

• 38:07Speaker 07

  I don’t know, I don’t know Michelle anymore. I stopped knowing her a long time ago.

• 38:14Speaker 06

  But needless to say, you don’t like her?

• 38:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, that’s evident, that’s very clear.

• 38:21Speaker 06

  How would you classify your dislike for her?

• 38:28Speaker 07

  What do you mean? I just dislike her or don't?

• 38:31Speaker 06

  I mean, do you hate her? Do you want to see something bad happen to her?

• 38:35Speaker 07

  No, I just want to stay away from my child.

• 38:37Annie Elise?

  Giselle seemed very withdrawn during the interview. Uninterested. It was clear that she didn't like Michelle, but she gave her reasons and that was that. And she said she didn't have anything to do with Michelle's disappearance. And to be fair, I mean, at this point, there wasn't much evidence to prove otherwise. Her alibi, it wasn't great, and there were a lot of suspicious coincidences, but there wasn't enough to build a solid case against her. So they let her go back home, and they continued searching for Michelle, and they continued their investigation. But the further that they got into it, the more suspicious Giselle continued to look. Now, since Scott was at the center of Michelle and Giselle's issues,

• 39:21Annie Elise?

  it only made sense that they needed to interview him. And he was more than willing to help. What investigators hadn't expected, though, was just how different Scott's version of events, and more specifically, his version of the relationship and dynamic between Michelle, Giselle, and him, how different that really was from what Michelle had told the police. Scott wasn't all that surprised to learn that Giselle had painted Michelle to be this home-wrecking, horrible woman. It was something that he had heard before. Which, you see, it all started back in the spring of 2003. Michelle, Giselle, and Scott were all in college. Scott and Giselle were classmates, and they had become friends. Then, one time when Michelle was visiting,

• 40:05Annie Elise?

  Giselle introduced the two of them. And they kind of clicked. They kind of just hit it off. Clicked enough that not too long after meeting, Scott and Michelle started dating. They only dated, though, for about a month before then mutually deciding to call things off. It was just one of those situations where, once you start dating someone, you realize there's really nothing necessarily wrong with them, but maybe you just don't click, not as much as you initially thought that you would. And that's totally fine. So they're like, eh, this isn't really working. But there was one other small aspect to the breakup. Giselle had told Michelle that Scott had a, quote, "semi-affair." Now, what exactly this means for a relationship of only one month? I'm not really sure.

• 40:49Annie Elise?

  Scott and Giselle were friends at the time, so maybe Giselle saw Scott flirting with another woman at a party or something like that. Maybe nothing ever even happened at all. Who knows? But like I said, Michelle and Scott weren't really clicking romantically, anyway. So, once she heard that, it was kind of the perfect excuse for them to break up and just, you know, go back to being friends. Which, they did. They continued talking. They continued hanging out and being friends. But at this point now, it was strictly platonic. Scott would later even say that during the month that they dated, there was never at all anything sexual that even happened between the two of them. Then, a few months later, in the fall of 2003, Giselle and Scott actually started dating.

• 41:35Annie Elise?

  And from what I can tell, Michelle did not mind at all. It hadn't worked out with Scott. She felt like they were better off as friends, anyway. So, who cares? Giselle, however, she did not like that Michelle and Scott were still friends. And the biggest thing to take away from this is that, according to Scott, what Giselle had said wasn't true. Michelle wasn't some homewrecker who swooped in and tried to steal her best friend's guy. In fact, Michelle had been the one to date him first. But either way, this was when things started taking a turn in Michelle and Giselle's friendship. And apparently, at some point after Giselle and Scott started dating, Michelle confided something pretty big in Scott. Michelle said that she was pregnant,

• 42:19Annie Elise?

  and she was planning on terminating the pregnancy. Now, it wasn't Scott's. Remember, they had never even gotten into that, anything at that point. There was no sexual element to their relationship at all. At that point, though, she just didn't feel like she had anyone else to turn to and talk to about it. And like I said, she and Scott were still really good friends. They had always been better as just friends. But for whatever reason, Michelle didn't want Giselle to know. Maybe she thought that she would judge her. Maybe she would tell her not to go through with it and that she needed to have the baby. So she asked Scott to keep it a secret. And he did. But somehow, Giselle later found out about it. More importantly, she found out that Scott knew before she did.

• 43:04Annie Elise?

  And that was when their friendship really started to end. Giselle didn't like that Michelle had confided in Scott and not her. And she started to feel like maybe the two of them were keeping secrets from her. Maybe they were still connected somehow. Still, even though Giselle wasn't happy to learn that Michelle and Scott had been keeping a secret from her, she, I guess, decided to let it slide, and the three of them stayed friends. She forgave, but she definitely did not forget. And over the next few years, everything was totally normal between them. But then, during the spring of 2005, so a couple of years later, Scott and Giselle broke up. And they really were going to call it quits. But then, Giselle found out, a few months later, that she was pregnant with Scott's child.

• 43:50Annie Elise?

  And instead of co-parenting, or instead of deciding to, you know, do things siloed or do things as a single mom, they got back together, wanting to be a whole, nuclear family unit when they welcomed their daughter into the world. Then, around a year after their daughter was born, that is when Giselle flipped a switch. Anytime Scott talked to Michelle, Giselle was angry. She started accusing the two of them of sleeping together behind her back and accusing Scott of cheating on her and Michelle of being this home-wrecking best friend. Which Scott really tried to convince Giselle that that wasn't true. Again, he said that he and Michelle never even had a sexual relationship when they were together. Certainly not now. They really were just friends.

• 44:34Annie Elise?

  That was it. It was platonic. But Giselle refused to believe anything that he or Michelle said. Scott said that he tried to do everything he could to prove that what Giselle believed wasn't true. He even stopped being friends with Michelle for a period of time, hoping that it would be enough. But nothing was. Meanwhile, Giselle continued to get more and more hostile. And eventually, that's what actually broke up their relationship in 2008. Scott just couldn't take it anymore. And he knew that, no matter what he did, no matter what he said, Giselle wasn't going to believe him. So they broke up and they co-parented. They went through custody hearings. There were periods of time where they would have split custody, other times where one person would have full custody, then the other would.

• 45:19Annie Elise?

  But Scott made one thing very clear to the investigators. Even once their relationship ended, Giselle was still threatened by Michelle. She made her feelings very clear, too. And it wasn't just that she didn't like her. The things that she would say to Scott about Michelle, they were more than concerning. They were full-fledged threats. Today's episode is sponsored by Rula Health. Now, this time of year can sometimes feel a little bit off. Less motivated, more tired, maybe even a little withdrawn. And sometimes you can't quite put your finger on why. Now, if that feeling keeps happening, or if it starts affecting your day-to-day life, it might be worth talking to someone about it. Because talking to a therapist, it can help you better just really understand

• 46:04Annie Elise?

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• 47:47Annie Elise?

  Scott never really believed that Giselle would go through with anything that she was threatening. But the things that she said, they were scary enough that there were times when he would record her without her knowledge. And in one of these recordings, he showed it to the detectives. And Giselle can be heard saying, "You will be honest with me regarding her. Otherwise, I will take your life and hers, and you can take that to the grave with you." I mean, that's an incredibly explicit threat. There's really no other way to interpret it. She's not hinting at something. She is outright saying something. Something out of anger. She's literally threatening both Scott's life and Michelle's life. There were also multiple texts from Giselle that Scott kept on his phone. Again, he never really thought

• 48:32Annie Elise?

  anything would ever happen to Michelle, but now that she was missing, he was more than glad that he had kept some of those text messages and the recordings after all that time. One text that Giselle sent said that Michelle has, quote, "dug her own grave by being a home wrecker." Another said she wouldn't be an issue for much longer. And those were just the text messages that she was sending Scott. The craziest part is that even after Giselle and Michelle stopped being friends, Giselle continued sending Michelle crazy, threatening text messages, almost to the point of harassment. On February 17, 2011, Giselle texted Michelle, "If you were really anybody's friend, mine or Scott's,

• 49:15Annie Elise?

  you would just fuck off and leave my family alone. But all you are is the whore who had nothing better to do and followed me to San Francisco. That's all you'll ever be. The whore who slept with other people's men and brothers because no one wanted you. You aren't my friend. You are always just a parasite." Then, the same day, just seconds after sending that text message to Michelle, Giselle sent another message to Scott. This one said... You two really do deserve each other. I hope you get what you deserve. You are both pathetic. You with no dreams or goals and the other chasing after someone else's dreams because she has none of her own. You are both parasites. So even in 2011, years after Scott and Giselle had broken up,

• 49:59Annie Elise?

  Giselle still wasn't over these beliefs that she had about Michelle and Scott. She was still just as angry as she had been when she first found out that Scott and Michelle had kept that secret from her. And over the years, that anger, it had snowballed into something much bigger, just so much resentment. Which yeah, it seems like everything I've said so far points toward Giselle being the one who did something to Michelle. But it wasn't that simple. I mean, sure, yeah, she had a motive. She also admitted to being at the hospital around the same time that Michelle went missing. But the focus was still on finding Michelle. Whether that meant finding her alive or finding her body somewhere. And all the while, instead of going into hiding,

• 50:43Annie Elise?

  Giselle was doing interviews with news stations openly telling them that she hated Michelle, but also insisting that she had nothing to do with her disappearance. Just very, very weird stuff. By June 7th, it was announced that Michelle's case was being treated as a homicide, even though they still hadn't found her body at this point. And I'm sure that this update was heartbreaking for her family. Even if deep down they knew that it was going to be true all along, hearing that is devastating. Michelle's blood, yeah, had been found in multiple locations and I mean, combined with the amount of time that she had now been missing, everything was pointing toward the worst-case scenario. But still, it's difficult to give up hope.

• 51:26Annie Elise?

  Over the next few months, investigators continued searching for Michelle. Michelle's family also hired a private investigator, hoping that maybe they would be able to speed things up. But search after search for Michelle's body ended the same way. With sadness and more confusion, and with her family just feeling lost and hopeless. The first time Michelle's family even felt a shred of relief and a shred of hope was on September 7th, when there was a huge update in the case. They hadn't found Michelle's body, but it was almost as huge. Because an arrest had finally been made. And the person arrested was none other than Giselle.

• 52:09Annie Elise?

  Michelle's once loyal and devoted friend turned enemy. Now this wasn't necessarily a huge shock. Like I said, Giselle made it very public that she didn't like Michelle. So I mean, what was different now? What had finally led to her arrest all of these months later? Well, the short answer is that investigators had found a lot of evidence against Giselle. The long answer is something that we're about to get into. So starting with the days leading up to Michelle's disappearance. On Thursday, May 27th, 2011, the day before Michelle disappeared, Giselle had a pretty busy day starting bright and early at 8:00 a.m. Because it turns out that Giselle actually went to Michelle's school that morning

• 52:53Annie Elise?

  and spoke to the administrative assistant at the nursing school. She told her that she had made an appointment with the student services counselor. So the woman briefly let Giselle in her office to go find the counselor, only to return a few minutes later and tell her that the counselor was actually out of the office. So she offered to answer any questions that Giselle had instead. She and Giselle spoke for a little bit, then Giselle left. But later that day, this woman noticed something odd. She knew that she had sat down a badge for a new faculty member who was on vacation and she had put this badge in her office. But now, it was nowhere to be found. And she was confident that she hadn't just misplaced it, so she reported it as missing. And that badge, it belonged to none other than Elaine.

• 53:38Annie Elise?

  The same person whose badge was later found inside Michelle's car. Now, they didn't have surveillance of Giselle actually stealing this badge. So how could they be sure that she was the one who took it? Well, they did have surveillance of her using it. At 8:40 a.m., Giselle was seen on footage badging in to the faculty break room. Later that day, at 5:11 p.m., Giselle badged into the faculty entrance of the building. And then, from 5:17 p.m. to 7:11 p.m., Giselle was just walking around the nursing school, badging into all different places. So it was no coincidence that this same badge was later found inside Michelle's car.

• 54:20Annie Elise?

  Which leads us into some of the other forensic evidence that was found in Michelle's car. Because Michelle's blood wasn't the only thing inside. It turns out that both Giselle's hair and her DNA were also found inside the car. And remember, this was a brand-new car. Giselle never should have even been inside of it. Even though she couldn't remember if she had ever been inside. Remember when the detectives had first interviewed her back in May? But then there was also this. Michelle's blood was also found on the bottom of a pair of Giselle's shoes. A pretty big deal. Now for some more technology-related evidence, there was more.

• 55:01Annie Elise?

  In the days leading up to Michelle's disappearance, Giselle Googled multiple different concerning things. Things like inducing heart attacks without leaving a trace. Following someone without being caught. She also was looking up toxic substances that could kill someone. Then, after Michelle went missing, Giselle Googled her name more than 300 times. Continuously looking into her case, where the investigators were, how close they were to catching her. And what's even crazier is that investigators had been tracking Giselle's car for months, which this led to multiple different discoveries. The first was that after Michelle disappeared, Giselle continuously drove to Scott's house. There and back.

• 55:47Annie Elise?

  And these weren't days or times where they were doing a custody exchange with their daughter or anything like that. Giselle was just watching him. But one of the times that Giselle was at Scott's house, there was an even more interesting discovery. On July 29th, 2011, when Scott was having a normal day cleaning out his car, he found Michelle's phone in the backseat. So he immediately called the police and had them come get it. Which thankfully for Scott, the investigators were able to put two and two together. Giselle had dropped the phone off during one of her stalking sessions. She was trying to frame Scott, the man that she claimed to love, the father of her child, framing him for Michelle's disappearance. But that didn't work.

• 56:31Annie Elise?

  There was never a single moment where investigators actually believed that Scott was involved in this. And then came the greatest discovery of all. And that came from both Michelle and Giselle's phones. Not surprisingly at all, on the night of Michelle's disappearance, both of their phones were together and they traveled to an area in the Niles Canyon area. Now this area had not been searched yet. But after Giselle's arrest and after this information was discovered, it was quickly turned into a full-blown search. And 10 days after Giselle's arrest, on September 17th, 2011, Michelle's remains were found.

• 57:14Annie Elise?

  A woman and her search dog were actually the ones to find Michelle. The woman had actually volunteered after hearing Michelle's story because it hit so close to home. Her daughter had also been a victim of a violent crime. So she felt like she had this call to help. But she never expected that she would be the one to actually find Michelle. She was glad that it was her. She said that she felt like both Michelle and her daughter had led her to the remains. Michelle's remains had been half-buried in the dirt and brush. Investigators believed that she had been there since the night that she went missing, so for months at this point. And with that, she had been exposed to the elements. So they were only able to identify her through dental records.

• 57:57Annie Elise?

  They also weren't able to determine a cause of death. Now not too long after Giselle's arrest, she gave birth. And she claimed that it was Scott's baby. And Scott even admitted that after their breakup, they had slept together a few times. However, he denied that the baby was his. And as far as I know, the father has never been disclosed. Giselle's trial began in the fall of 2012. And even though she pleaded not guilty, Giselle actually later admitted that she did kill Michelle. However, she claimed that it was an accident. She said that Michelle provoked her and that in the heat of the moment, she attacked her, not expecting her to actually die. So with that, her defense team was pushing for a voluntary manslaughter charge.

• 58:41Annie Elise?

  Instead of the first-degree murder charge that she was actually facing. But thankfully, that wasn't happening. The prosecution called Giselle a sociopath and they argued that she had carefully planned Michelle's murder. Nothing about it was spur-of-the-moment or this unplanned event or accident. And ultimately, Giselle was found guilty of first-degree murder and she was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Now something I saw while I was doing research for this case and thought that, you know, was really interesting, is that the judge on the case claimed that in all of his career, he had never seen a case with more condemning evidence. Which we love to say that, right? We love when there is a stupid criminal, when they Google things, when they're sloppy.

• 59:27Annie Elise?

  We love to see it. Because they end up helping solve the case in a lot of times. Michelle's family was of course very happy that Giselle was behind bars. That is where she was going to stay for the rest of her life. However, they were a little disappointed that Giselle could potentially still get out on parole one day.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  Go back up there in who knows when, anytime she's up for a parole hearing, then it all comes up again.

• 59:55Annie Elise?

  Michelle's death was one that rocked the entire community and the lives of those who loved her. She was someone dedicated to putting other people first, to putting the needs of other people above her own. And there was no other reason that she was taken from people besides this deep jealousy. And now, for years, Giselle has sat in prison where she will sit for the rest of her life. She hasn't gotten to see her daughter grow up. She hasn't even had any moments to see the child that she gave birth to in prison, growing up. And I wonder if she ever sits awake at night and thinks to herself, was this worth it? Should I have taken Michelle's life? Because now you've not only ruined all of Michelle's loved ones' lives

• 1:00:40Annie Elise?

  and taken Michelle's life over jealousy, but you've ruined your two children's lives. They now don't have their mother. You tried to frame Scott. There's going to be trauma there. All for what? Because you were mad that they had a friendship, that they had a bond that she had confided in him? Because even after you broke up, you felt like it was her fault in all of this? Get a grip. Get a motherfucking grip, chick. Like, come on. So, I don't know. I think that this case is very important, not only to highlight Michelle's legacy and keep her voice alive, but also to just illustrate the dangers out there of jealousy and the brink, the edge that it can take some people to. I don't know.

• 1:01:25Annie Elise?

  It's kind of scary to think about. All right, now, really quickly, before you go, just a reminder, all of our fall merch is officially on sale, but it will not last and the merch shop will be closing soon. AnnieElise.com. Get all of your merch while you can. The "Make It Make Sense", the "I hope you're having a good day, I'm about to ruin it", "Stay Spooky", it's true crime documentaries or Christmas movies. There is no in-between. So many different pieces of merch. So, go grab it, AnnieElise.com. But, warning, some of it is already starting to sell out, so grab it quickly. So, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of 10 to Life with me, Annie Elise. Don't forget, the video version is always available on YouTube. Just search Annie Elise on YouTube. You can see the CCTV footage there.

• 1:02:11Annie Elise?

  You can see the interviews there, everything. And I have new episodes out every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday between this podcast feed, 10 to Life, and my second podcast feed, Serial-ally. Serial spelled like serial killer, but seriously, like seriously. All right, guys, thank you so much. And until the next one, stay safe. Bye.

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