How To Cultivate Non-Judgment

Humans love duality. But there is great beauty in the grey that lives between the lines. Black and white. Good and bad. Evolution and regression. We are hard wired to categorize. To pick a team and stick with it. It’s our way of making sense of the world. But too often this inclination to self-identify only serves to isolate and divide — working at cross-purposes with our competing desire to more deeply connect with our fellow humans. So what happens when we resist the urge to judge another? This week on the podcast Julie and I peer beyond dogma, belief systems and categories to embrace the grey. Consider it a thought experiment in forsaking judgment for empathy as a path to better understand others and the environments we co-inhabit. Specific topics include: * creating and cultivating community * the difference between discernment and judgment * enhancing sustainability in consumer choice * finding your authentic voice We end the episode with a rendition of the Hedy West song 500 Miles by Julie (aka SriMati) and our boys' band Ana Leimma. I sincerely hope you enjoy the conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  It's really all about perspective, and so it's an inside job. So I would say that many of us have a lot of inner work to do and to attend to before we start judging other people. And so it's the old thing, you don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. And, you know, all of us will be on our knees at some point in our life. Life does not let anyone off of that. So in a way, there's no need for you to judge, or for us to judge, or for us to tell another person. And as we always say, the best, most powerful thing is to be a living example.

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody, welcome to or back to the podcast. This is the show where each week I have the great privilege of going deep and wide with some of the most interesting, compelling, inspiring, thought provoking thought leaders across all categories of positive social and culture change. But this week, we're going to do things a little bit differently. This is another edition of Ask Me Anything, which is something we haven't done in a little while. And today, Julie is here once again. Hi Julie.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Hi Rich.

• 2:33Rich Roll?

  My sometime co-host.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Sometimes wife.

• 2:36Rich Roll?

  It's been a while since we've done Ask Me Anything, so nice to have you back in that chair.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. Thanks for having me on your show.

• 2:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's gonna be great. So, we talked beforehand about a couple of subject matters that we wanted to get into today. But before we get into that, today's episode is brought to you by... Alright, community. So, one of the things that came up in the podcast with Alexis Fox and Micah last week in recapping the plant stock adventure was something interesting Alexis said that I've been thinking about a lot. Like, I've always thought, I go to a lot of these events and I see some of the same people attending, and I've often thought, why are they coming back to hear, you know,

• 3:28Rich Roll?

  these lectures from these doctors and people when they've already heard the lecture? Like, they should take the information incorporated into their lives and then live their life, right? But Alexis offered kind of a counterpoint to that, which I think was very astute, which is, they're coming not just for the information, but they're coming for the community, right? A bunch of like-minded people congregating to get together to kind of share their collective experience of, you know, living this lifestyle, whether, you know, plant-based lifestyle, healthy lifestyle, however you want to characterize it. And that's something that I thought, I think I've kind of, I overlooked in my previous synopsis of this thing. And, and so, that's got me thinking about...

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  Not only the importance of community, but how you and I can do a better job of creating community and also how we can provide other people with the tools to create community in their own living space, either virtually or in person. And the other experience that is informing my thinking on this was our experience going to Camp Mars a couple of weeks ago. So I am friendly with Shannon Leto, who's in the band Thirty Seconds to Mars with his brother Jared Leto. And they do this thing every year, this is the second year of it, where they put on

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  basically a summer camp, and this year it was in Malibu, pretty close to our house, where they have like 1,500 of their fans come and spend the weekend, and they get to hang out with their fans, they play concerts at night, and there's activities during the day. There was no drugs or alcohol on-site.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  That was the coolest thing.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Which was amazing. And it was like this really cool wholesome experience where all of their fans got to get together and hang out with each other, and also got to rub elbows with this band that they love. And they had brought in speakers, like Neil Strauss spoke, and there were some climbing people.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Who did yoga every day. Shannon did a drum circle at night, which was incredible.

• 5:39Rich Roll?

  They had a pool, people were swimming in this pool. And it was just, I'd never seen anything like that before. I was really struck by what a unique and powerful thing that was. No band does that, right? And in many ways, this band, irrespective of your musical taste, has made this conscious decision to step out of the paradigm. They've had this historic battles with the record labels, they made a documentary about it. They've just decided, look, we don't have to be the biggest band in the world, but we have fans all over the world that really love us and let's just cater to them and try to create not only, you know, great music for them, but this special annual experience that we can give to them.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're succeeding and they have a massive following and, you know, they really are sort of warriors in this area because they're breaking the paradigm of the old, you know, setup of the music business and who's controlling what music gets out there. And it's just a super exciting time and shows a lot of, you know, inner strength and just following your own way for them to have made the decisions that they made. I'm sure, I know it was not easy. I saw the documentary, they went through hell, like they literally risked everything and sued, you know, people in industries in the music business that were very powerful. And, you know, they, they went for it.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  And what they're doing is, is just showing that music is for everybody and there are billions of people on the planet and there's going to be somebody that resonates with you. And the things that they're upholding and they're sharing is they're giving this connection, they're giving, I mean, who gives a drug and alcohol-free opportunity in that, you know, kind of environment? And really, you know, they encourage families and, and it was also different levels. So some people were camping all the way up to VIPs that were in tour buses. So they're, they're really doing an amazing job creating community and connecting with their following and bringing the people in close to them.

• 7:45Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Right. And, and, you know, I think both Julie and I can speak for you in saying we walked away from that experience, like really inspired by what is possible, right?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  I walked on, I walked up and I was like, it's like Plant Power Italia, but just expanded, you know?

• 8:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like really big and like in our backyard.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Right. And actually we were interested, I mean, we're looking into the venue, they generously, you know, said, yeah, absolutely, check it out. But... You know, that would be a great venue for us to do another kind of Plant Power Way retreat that was sort of more of a mass offering for a wider range of people.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  Right, much more affordable.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, much more affordable in different levels, and it would be really, really beautiful to do it. So, we are looking into that, and that's pretty exciting to have stumbled upon that wonderful community expression.

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And I think something that goes kind of, you know, hand in hand or lockstep with, you know, kind of stepping out of social constructs, or breaking a paradigm, or doing something a little bit different, whether it's adopting a plant-based lifestyle, or, you know, I don't know, going down the rabbit hole on something that isn't part of, you know, mainstream culture. It can be lonely and alienating. And, you know, I was reviewing a bunch of questions that had come in in preparation for this podcast, and there were a lot, you know, there's a common theme in a lot of them, which is, you know, I listen to the podcast, and, you know, I've changed the way that I eat, and my perspective around

• 9:22Rich Roll?

  food, and lifestyle, and, you know, fitness, and exercise, and meditation, and all of these things, but I feel alone, you know? And the podcast is like this way of connecting with like-minded individuals, you know, in sort of a lighthouse kind of way. But in a tactile, like, real-world, everyday, you know, experience of navigating your life, wherever you live, if you're the only one who's doing that, it can be an isolating experience. So, how can we cultivate more community around these ideas, so that somebody who perhaps is in that situation can start to feel more at ease, and more at home with these choices?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, as human beings, we long for connection. It's really one of the foundational desires or needs of what it means to be a human being. And I think one of the really rough things, I can't believe that happened.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  I told you. I was like, please turn the radar off on your stupid phone.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I actually just turned it on because specifically.

• 10:24Rich Roll?

  Why would you turn it on?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Because I wanted to actually get this information from, hold on a second. I wanted to find this person who just stopped me, this is actually relevant to what we were talking about. I actually, you know, sort of, here she is, Mafalda, Mafalda, hi. Anyway, what happened is, is I was actually at Cafe Gratitude yesterday with Shama from Dominher, and she's a representative from Dominher, which is possibly the most successful and the most expanded example of community that exists on the planet. It's a spiritual community, we spoke about it before, we went there before the retreat, and they've, you know, really, really excelled in, they have an actual working community

• 11:08Speaker 01

  that exists of more than 500 people, and then extended community worldwide, and they have their own language, their own currency, they're making products, they're working together. And, you know, they admit, of their own admission, creating community is very hard, or living in community is very hard, probably much harder than doing something online. And what happened is, I was at Cafe Gratitude with my dear friend Tamra and with Shama, and during the dinner, Mafalda came up and just, you know, excused herself and sort of interrupted and said that, you know, she just wanted to connect with me and thank me for the work that I'd done on my podcast, and that she had just been listening to it for three hours,

• 11:50Speaker 01

  and she was just back from Portugal with her child. And I stood up and gave her a hug and was very touched, was very, very sweet. And when she walked away, you know, Tamra had tears in her eyes. And the reason she did is because to be on the outside and to be misunderstood and to be an outlier is a very painful experience. And what people who are awakening all over the planet, and in all small towns across the United States and all across the world, or, you know, in Norway, or Sweden, or China, or, you know, wherever you are, when you start to awaken and the rest of your community is not awake, it is a painful experience.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And as healers or people that have had awarenesses beyond what the mass consciousness is, we have been the ones who have been silenced, or marginalized, or...

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Patronized or sort of judged in a way for not being cool or not or having a ridiculous view, you know, and so I think that the people that are, you know, awakening in their small town and they're the only vegan, you know, in a meeting in community or they're the only one who's starting to meditate or practice yoga, they're feeling this disconnection and it's a true pain of humanity.

• 13:15Rich Roll?

  Right, so how do we get into the solution on that?

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think by what we're doing, it's like, you know, you really have to, first of all, you have to try to find a place of neutrality within you and understand that everybody is on their own timeline and their own track of awakening and to understand as much as you can that it's not personal. And one thing that's been really, really helpful for me is to understand that when you, when you enter into a level of awareness, it's actually a state of frequency and a state of frequency is not a better than or worse than. So, no life form is better or worse than another. You know, the sun is shining

• 14:02Speaker 01

  on all of us the same. So, it's just different. So, again, to be able to not take it personally and understand that this is just the process and this is part of going through awakening.

• 14:17Rich Roll?

  But I think even if you can get to that sort of mental and emotional state, there's still a sense of loneliness, right? So, to bridge that gap and to create, you know, an interpersonal connection with that, I think it has to just start with one individual. You know, like the example that comes to mind is... What Josh LaJani has done like down in the in the bayou like when he was, you know, undergoing his transformation and, you know, started eating plants and doing all these things that were completely at odds with the culture surrounding him, I would imagine that was very lonely for him, right? But now he does workshops and he, you know, teaches cooking at, you know, little like

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  restaurants or cafes around his, you know, town and he's working with people in his immediate family. So of course, none of that happened overnight. It probably happened with him finding, you know, just one person who had, you know, a tangential or slight interest in what he might have to offer and then kind of wedging that door a little bit further open and open and open. And I think by sort of, you know, being that beacon of light, like standing in your strength with conviction about what you're doing, you will, over time, you know, attract like-minded souls who are gonna resonate with what you have to offer. I think there's a commitment there and there's certainly, you know, work that has to get

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  done, but I think if you devote yourself to that, that you can see it through to developing community in your immediate environment interpersonally. And, you know, then beyond that, of course, there's plenty of things that you can do online.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I think that, you know, Josh is a beautiful living example of, of really being a warrior and really being somebody who has affected great change in his community and within himself. I mean, he is the, the best living example, having lost, you know, I don't know, maybe 300 pounds and

• 16:16Rich Roll?

  Over 200.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's running marathons.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  He won an ultra.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  He won an ultra, yay, Josh! The other thing is, is just such a beautiful heart of an individual. I mean, I think the one thing that he never lost was his connection to love and the fact that he loved his community and he loved his family. And so, he was not drawn into judgment and into the violence that can, you know, sort of arise from wanting to draw that line in the sand and make that separation. And it is a little bit of a dance because You know, in spiritual practice, we know that the company you keep is very important. So, you know, for instance, in your case, if you're living a sober life, you don't hang out with addicts. Like, there is something to that. So, you do, when you embrace this

• 17:04Speaker 01

  type of lifestyle, you want to connect with like-minded people. And the blessing is, is that we have this internet. So even if you're in the remotest place, you can be listening to this podcast, you can be connecting on Facebook with people. And maybe some of that is an illusion. Like, maybe some of that social media is, it's not really real. Like, you know, like, are those people really your friends? Like, your deep friends? But I found in my own life that it gave me tremendous strength, and it helped me when I was really down. When no one in my immediate community was understanding me, I was able to get a sign from the universe via social media, via an email, via something that would always

• 17:47Speaker 01

  lift me and say, and sort of give me the, "Okay, keep going. Someone does care about this information."

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, this issue of judgment, or perhaps more aptly put, non-judgment, is very commingled and intertwined with this subject of community. So, these are like the two prongs that I wanted to explore today. And I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said that Josh, you know, never lost his love for the people in his life. So, what I get out of that is that the solution is not to separate yourself, right? Like, "Oh, I'm different in this binary way of saying, 'Well, I live my life this way, these people live their life that way, so I'm going to, you know, put my arm, my hand up and

• 18:36Rich Roll?

  remove myself from that community because I'm different.'" That's not necessarily the solution. So, because Josh has such a big heart, and he does care so deeply about those people in his life, and he doesn't judge them, he was able to connect with them, even if they were seeing things a little bit differently, and to create, you know, a bridge so that they could not only coexist peacefully, but grow together.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Definitely, and I think, you know, one of the great tools and the great wisdoms is to be able to separate the soul, or the heart, or the person from the action. You can, you can look at somebody, as we do in our own marriage, and say, "I don't like what you did. I don't, I'm not in alignment with your action, but I love you unconditionally." And it's a very different thing than to say, "I hate what you did," and slam a door. And so, in my, in my mother experience with my own children, I try to experience, I try to express that with them. Like, while, and I always clarify it, like, "While I may not like what you did, I love you, and I'm committed to you."

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So, the action's very different. The second thing is, is that there's a difference between judgment and discernment. And this is a very, um, uh, very important thing to understand in spiritual practice, because in the beginning, when you start studying, uh, more awakened states of living, um, the human mind wants to separate. They want to say, "This is good, and that is bad." And, and if you're saying, "That is bad," and this other person is doing it, then inherently, they are bad. Like, you know, and it happens in this, in any isms, like, any isms that we set up. And so, for instance, in veganism, uh, there's a lot

• 20:28Speaker 01

  of polarization between people that are all doing their part in their own way for the good, and it is affecting things in a good way, but it might be a little different reflection, or a little different expression. So, I think that we need to really cultivate our wisdom and our awareness and our understanding of what is judgment, which is sort of separating, and drawing the line, and critical, and analytical. And then, what is discernment? So, discernment is, for me and my life, for my vibration, for my soul mission, I'm not going to, uh, engage in that activity.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  But I understand from a higher perspective that even though I'm not engaging in that activity, there may be a higher divine purpose, or that might be a necessary element in that person's journey.

• 21:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tricky, it's complicated, and it can be very subtle, right? Like, where do we, you know, where do we draw the line? Like, if you say, "I'm trying to practice non-judgment in my life," well, inherently, just because you've incarnated into the human body, you spend a lot of time judging. You know, we all do, all day long. Like, part of our, our brains are hardwired to make decisions. Like you said, this is good, this is bad, in oftentimes a very binary way. And that's how we tend to, you know, avoid danger and, you know, navigate the world as best as we can to, you know, be safe and make our way, et cetera.

• 22:10Rich Roll?

  But at what point does judgment become necessary, right? If you say, "Look, it's not for me to judge anyone else. Like, I'm trying to be non-judgmental." So if, let's anchor it, like, in a very practical, real-world sense. If you're online, like, there's a lot of noise, like, there's a lot of opinions. We're coming up on an election. Or all you have to do is watch, you know, vegan YouTube channels. Like, these people are all arguing with each other, everybody has a different point of view, there's a lot of low blows and character assassinations going on. And I've often thought, like, do I have a responsibility to offer an opinion here? Or do I exempt myself?

• 22:52Rich Roll?

  Like, I want to be non-judgmental of other people's journey and be this lighthouse and just stand in my truth and emit that frequency and try to attract like-minded people to that. And by just, sort of, you know, walking my walk and, you know, walking my talk, that is how I see myself in... You know, the best way for me to advocate, that's in alignment with my personality. But at some point, do we not have a responsibility to say, actually, you know what? I need to say that this is wrong and this is, this is bad and I do have a judgment on this. And that's rooted in my experience and everything that I've learned and, you know, my, my advocacy

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  now is turning towards trying to arrest whatever this behavior that I see out in the world that I think is causing ill or harm.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. I mean, again, I would say that it's refined levels of understanding the difference between judgment and discernment because energetically, when you say the word judgment, it feels like a low vibrating quality, a low vibrating energy. It's not a high vibrating energy. And I don't think anybody that ever needed, needed help, needed a hand, needed awareness, needed support, ever changed from the energy of judgment. Judgment simply shuts down and creates separation. Now, if we move to the word discernment, it has a very different energetic quality. So if there is a train barreling down the tracks, I'm not going to stand in front of

• 24:26Speaker 01

  the train because, you know, for whatever reason and get run over by the train. It's, it's discernment.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  Right. But that, but that speaks to your own personal behavior as opposed to your opinion on somebody else's behavior.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Okay. So again, going to opinions, what is an opinion and who are you in the planet and who are you in the cosmos? And where is the arrogance of humanity that we think we know what's right for everybody else in every case? We don't. Where you can share and what this is the cultivation of the change that is happening on the planet is happening from people sharing their own personal perspectives, which is rooted in experience. That's all we can do. That's all I'm doing here on this show with you. That's all I'm doing and everything that I'm sharing. I'm sharing my own personal experience. That's why I, you know, I eat coconut oil and I cook with nuts because that's my person.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Personal experience, you know, I had my own journey, my own healing experience. I can only share from my own experience and remain authentic. I can't look to, you know, you know, Forks Over Knives or other people who don't use oil. I respect them. I respect them in their decision. I don't draw a line or a separation and say they're bad and I'm good, or I'm bad, or they're good. I'm simply living my own perspective. So I think it's a perspective is the word, not judgment. Judgment is not ever going to, if you're, if you're using it in that way, if you're

• 26:05Speaker 01

  saying, if you're, if you're mixing and you're saying judgment is discernment, but discernment is a different thing. It's like you make choices in your life and they affect your life. That's discernment. That's wisdom. But it's not done with animosity or a feeling of I'm better than someone else. And one of the things that's been interesting recently for me is I've been coming to this awareness of, you know, just consider, like, let's just say that, let's just go on a little fantasy and imagine if you were a multi-dimensional being, what identities would you have embodied in all those thousands of, you know, lifetimes or simultaneous times? What would they be?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Would you have been a prince? Would you have been an actor? Would you have been a bum? Would you have been a drunk? Would you have been a father? Would you have been a thief? Would you have caused harm, killed somebody? I really feel like spiritual maturity is when you understand.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  That you either were, or you could have been, any of those things, any of those identities. And so for me, it's to judge someone else is, it's almost not, it's not possible. Because I feel myself in all of them. I feel myself in every flavor of creation. And with that awareness gives a maturity and an ability to allow people their own experience. And now also trusting in something beyond, that there is a greater force.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  And that by committing ourselves to that greater force, in devotion, in love, in service, in commitment, and doing the very, very best that we can to live our own unique divine blueprint, that somehow, by the grace of Divine Mother, something extraordinary and miraculous will evolve, will bloom.

• 28:19Rich Roll?

  If you boil that down to brass tacks, what you're really saying is, the more that you can cultivate empathy in your life, the drive or compulsion to judge starts to evaporate.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Beautifully put.

• 28:33Rich Roll?

  Right, so if you're, if you have a deep sense of empathy, then you're able to see the gray in everything, right? And you're able to see beyond your own ego and agenda to the humanity in everybody. In other words, to say that we all have our own truth, and that we lack the perspective to make a judgment call on the inherent value of any person's decisions or experiences. At the bottom, you know, beneath that though, I mean, if you want to go down some kind of philosophical rabbit hole, there is some objective moral truths that exist in the world. We all have our subjective truths about our lives.

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  And everybody is operating under, you know, under their version of what that truth is. And I think it is wise to cultivate that.

• 29:25Rich Roll?

  That level of empathy and to stay out of judging other people's experiences and truths. But at some point, when somebody's subjective truth contravenes, what I think we could all agree is a, is a kind of a moral imperative, is there not some compulsion to act or to speak, right? I mean, that's why we have the rule of law and, and all of that.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Very amazing question and very, very deep thing to contemplate and-

• 29:52Rich Roll?

  Right, so, sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but just to finish that thought, what is our responsibility? What is your responsibility as somebody who's lived a life and has certain experiences? When you observe something that, you know, you can see through your empathy to an objective wrong that perhaps could be, uh, could be cured, could be course corrected, should you choose to act or to speak?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Okay, well, what I would say to that is I would say, um, that if you can cure it within yourself, then you can cure it within the world. If it's really clear within yourself and completely healed, then you can, you know, then you, then you, you have a chance of curing it in the world. What I'm saying is, it's all an inside job.

• 30:47Rich Roll?

  So what is, what would be an example of that?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Well, anything, I mean, you know, anything. I don't, I don't know if I can really articulate it in that way, but just getting back to morals, I just want to say something before this leaves, leaves my consciousness and then I'll get back to that, is, you know, what are, what are morals and what are rules and, you know, what are something like the 10 commandments or, you know, or, you know, anything, you know, a himsa in yogic tradition? If you, if you look at a very pure way of being and living, if one knows himself or herself and is living in alignment with those values at a very, very deep level-

• 31:26Speaker 01

  The actions are spontaneously correct, are spontaneously high in high alignment. So, we don't need rules or morals, like, I'm afraid of moral, of that word morals, because morals could imply a dogma that you impose on another being, like, let's just take sexuality, for example. Somebody could have a moral opinion that having sex with same-sex people is evil. And what I'm saying is, there are so many types of life forms in creation, you can't make a moral setup that applies to every situation in every condition.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And so, in Tantra, the whole point of practice, yoga practice, is to be aligned with yourself naturally. So, if you give charity, or support, or a gift, it's a spontaneous act, and it's disconnected from your ego or identity. If you're in right alignment, you will not harm, you would not harm someone out of alignment. Now, this doesn't mean that, let's say, somebody broke into your house, and they were going to kill your children, you would kill them to protect your children. That's not right, that's not bad alignment. It's spontaneous within the thing.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Are you going to say, "I'm a peaceful person, so then go ahead"? You know, so, these are the little intricacies, and I think that because of religions, and because of dogma, we get caught up in this morality, and then somehow, the ego attaches to it, and thinks it has a job to do, to teach someone else how to be moral. And, you know, I don't know about you, but I'm so connected with my imperfections, so connected with, you know, just this life, this life of Julie Piatt, and formerly Julie Mathis. You could write my life, and you could make me out to be a horrible person, a whore, a

• 33:34Speaker 01

  drug addict, a gold digger, I mean, I could do it. So, you know, I've chosen this perspective and, you know, I giggle, I giggle because we had some, um, we have some interference at our house a long time ago with a very dark energy that actually sold me the land to the house. And at some point during our dark night, um, they sent, they had to send a cleaning crew over to our house to clear the trees and the brush for fire and we had no money to pay for it. So it was attached to a tax bill or something. And the crew came and they had been told by this disgruntled neighbor that we shot pornography at our house. And it took me two whole days to figure

• 34:14Speaker 01

  it out. She was acting very weird and I stood next to her and just in my center point for a very long time. And I actually asked you to leave and I stayed there with her. I have no memory of this. This is a very profound experience that happened. And I, I discovered that she had been told that we were pornography, we made pornography. And she was, after she sort of checked it all out, she was like, yeah, I think you guys are just creative and I don't see anything weird going on here. But I giggled after the whole thing. Um, I ended up sending her away, of course, with a copy of autobiography of a yogi from Yogananda. And, but the point of, of me telling this story right now is that it was a hilarious

• 34:59Speaker 01

  perspective as I reflected in meditation that here I fancied myself this spiritual being a seeker and somebody who, you know, only cares about, um, our connection to God. And here this other person, uh, viewed me as a pornographer, which actually was not true in any way. But what I'm saying is it's really all about perspective. And so it's an inside job. So I would say that many of us have a lot of inner work to do and to attend to before we start judging other people. And so it's the old thing, you, you don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. And, you know, all of us will be on our knees

• 35:40Speaker 01

  at some point in our life. Life does not let anyone off of that. So in a way, there's no need for you to judge or for us to judge or for us to tell another person. And as we always say, the best, most powerful thing is to be a living example.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Keep becoming more and more clear, more expanded, more in alignment, more authentic, more loving. Be that and walk in a room and have everybody just, you know, love, love you and feel love.

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Well, the adage is, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house," but everybody lives in a glass house, right? We're all deeply flawed. I'm, you know, I'm a highly, highly, deeply flawed individual. And that's why I experienced discomfort at the prospect of levying judgment on someone else, because I wouldn't want that coming in my direction. And I'm hardly a perfect human being, right? So, we're all open and available for being judged by others. And we live in a culture in which it's not only encouraged, but it's rewarded, you know, on the level of, you know, insanity with social media, et cetera. Like the sort of celebration of schadenfreude that exists when, you know, somebody is hoisted

• 37:09Rich Roll?

  from their petard is, you know, very troubling. It's a very troubling trend in, you know, in our current society. And I think that, that, you know, maybe I'm just a sensitive person, but I remember like, when I was practicing law, when I was a litigator, one of the things that was very difficult for me was that I was always able to see the other side's argument. Like, your job is to advocate for your client, right? To like, just get behind them 110% and see the world their way and, you know, argue on their behalf. But I was always like, "Yeah, but that guy's got a good point over there."

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I kind of get where he's coming from.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  I kind of like, "Can I switch sides?" You know, like, that's not good. I mean, it's good in the, in an, as an intellectual exercise to be able to understand all the arguments and that arms you with the ability to then, you know, come up with counter-arguments to the arguments that you understand. But at the same time, I don't know that it made me a very good advocate. And I remember thinking like, I'm just, I think I'm just too sensitive for this, because I could just live in the gray, you know? And I think the gray is where... We all live, and I think cultivating a deeper sense of awareness about that is not the worst thing that you can do.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and I mean, just to kind of stay on point with part of your and my message is going into this vegan movement and really the issue of, you know, I don't go on those YouTube channels, so I don't really know what's going on, I just hear it from you. Like, I'm kind of like, not really in that world, but, because I don't like to call myself a vegan, or like, raise a flag. I hashtag vegan, but, you know, I just don't like rules around me. And, you know, I was raised in Alaska on game, mate, as most of you know who listen to the podcast, and, you know, my dad was a hunter, and in many ways, I have deep respect for my father, because at least he knew what he was doing. He wasn't going to buy a package in a store completely disconnected. And so, if he could do what he did, and skin something, and carry it, you know, and sleep

• 39:09Speaker 01

  on a glacier, and fly across, you know, in a tin can, across Mount McKinley, well, I guess he can eat it. You know, who am I to say he can't eat it? And I think within our own lives, I mean, in the early days, you know, PETA was the first one to really, one of the first ones to recognize us, and really help you, and we needed that help desperately at that time, and, you know, they came in, and they were coming to our house, and you and I were freaking out, because I was like, oh shit, you know, we have like, a leather chair, like, are we gonna get blood thrown on us? You know? And much to our delight, you know, Lisa was really amazing, and very, very, you know, kind of relaxed about it, and, which I know is not, you know, always their MO, but, at least in our home, she was like that, and, you know, I think it's just a process, you

• 39:53Speaker 01

  know, we have to respect that everybody has their own process, and, like, for instance, with leather shoes, you know, I know a lot of vegan women, and they're, you know, animal rights activists, like hardcore, and then they draw the line at leather vegan shoes. And I get it, because, you know, plastic shoes really hurt your feet, you know, and you end up with bunions and weird shaped feet after a few years. So, the way that I've dealt with it is, I just don't buy new ones, you know, but I'm old enough that I have, like, some good shoes, and I just took them, and got them all repaired at the shoe repair guy, and I was so happy to have my- My shoes back, but if you see me, you'll see me in a pair of leather shoes. You know, I mean, that's where I'm at. It's like, I'm not, I'm not perfect. I'm not exact. I'm not black and white.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  But I think that every day, we all can strive or can have the intention to look deeper into our footprint. You know, what kind of waste are you leaving behind in your work? What kind of waste are you leaving behind in the activities that you choose to do? Are you doing anything that's excessive? And can we simplify and, you know, try to find sustainable companies that, you know, maybe this, maybe it's worse to buy a bunch of vegan fast fashion and get new clothes every season that pollute. You know, who knows what's in a lot of the synthetics? You don't know. Or is it, or is it-

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  Well, you have to have like a 10,000-foot view on everything. You know, if you're going to the vintage clothing store and buying a used pair of leather boots, you know, that have existed on the planet for 20 years or something like that-

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Which I love, I love doing that.

• 41:39Rich Roll?

  What is the, like, if you, like, if you just approach it from an ethical and sustainability perspective, what is the, you know, Ahimsa equation or the harm created by that versus, you know, buying a bunch of vegan or fast fashion clothes that come out of a, you know, some kind of crazy, you know, factory in the third world where they're creating, you know, incredibly toxic runoff that's going into the rivers, that's killing a bunch of fish. So even though it's technically vegan, if you, if you look at the whole chain of supply, the harm that it's causing is perhaps greater.

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  And I think the more you can kind of cultivate a 10,000-foot view, that allows you to also-

• 42:29Rich Roll?

  Generate a deeper level of non-judgment, right? Because we're all living in this world and none of us are perfect. And we all require resources to live. And those resources and the decisions that we make about how we live our life have ramifications, create ripple effects around the world, some bigger than others. But to be aware that none of us are exempt from that, I think, you know, allows you to tap into that gray space and cultivate a little bit more empathy and non-judgment.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and trust that, you know, just because someone else in the vegan movement or in, you know, just say planetary stewardship or sustainability or trying to draw awareness, isn't exactly like you. They are needed and they are reaching some set of people. And we need all of us, all of us are needed. So it's not-

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  What about the person who's out there judging people like crazy?

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's their choice. I would, you know, in my, from my perspective, I would say that that's not very constructive. But I'm not going to spend time in there. I'm not going to go in there and judge that person or tell that person. That's just me getting sucked into it. No, I'm going to go keep creating my amazing recipes and put up my yoga videos and-

• 43:48Rich Roll?

  But I'm saying like even, you know, like forget about like the plant-based movement and any of that, just like in general, like in the world on any issue.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Again, the only way we can truly transform the world is by transforming ourselves. And if by enough of us finding that light and embodying it and standing up and screaming from the mountaintops, not obnoxiously, but in true delight, in true joy, in true desire for a better way. That's how we will affect a change. And it becomes infectious because the energy will draw more energy to it. You'll ignite other people that are just on the edges of awakening into their own voice. And we're on a, we're at a crucial moment. It is, it is very important that we all use all of our energy to the best of our ability

• 44:40Speaker 01

  to find our authentic voice and live that full on, full out, full on. It'll come in a million different varieties, a million different- Expressions because life is like that. But if we, we all do that, which is such a, what an amazing mission to know yourself. What a, that's, what a great gift that that's what we get to do. Stop looking out at all this other stuff and, you know, try to, try to stay away from the rules, the isms, the judgments. It's, it's not important. Cultivate within yourself and turn the mirror inside your own heart. Clear what's in imbalance inside your own heart. Um, there's no need to judge.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  No one gets away with anything. Everything is answered for. So any ill or anything that's, that's affected in this life will be answered for in its universal law. It will happen. They don't need, we don't need humans to be doing that.

• 45:40Rich Roll?

  And the work is never done, right? You can never reach the bottom of that, you know, search to cultivate the maximum amount of, you know, authentic expression in your life. Like, you know, you can devote your entire life to that and that's a, that's a worthy devotion. It is the most worthy devotion. And I believe, I mean, that has been the answer for me.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 46:04Rich Roll?

  I think that this podcast and everything that's grown out of it and the community that has, you know, flourished around it is a result of, you know, a persistent, constant practice of, of, um, you know, accepting myself and continually trying to work on what needs to be worked on. Right? As imperfectly as that is and has been.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 46:30Rich Roll?

  And by doing that and speaking to that and being open about that and allowing myself to be vulnerable about that, um, to invite people into that journey and invite them as well to do that in their own lives, I think has been, you know, sort of the secret sauce in this podcast adventure.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and I mean, the work, the evolution just goes on for eternity. So, once we've evolved to a certain level here, I mean, really, if you look at the whole picture, like, we're really just, you know, ants, even smaller than ants. So, we're not really that significant in the whole thing. But, we're significant and insignificant, both at the same time. But, if we, it'll just go forever. Like, once you light body from here, then there's a whole nother, you know, experience. It's just, you know, it's the feminine principle. She's creating always, always, for eternity. We'll never stop, we'll never stop.

• 47:26Rich Roll?

  There was an article that I read yesterday, that, actually, Dan McPherson tweeted it. And it was an article on a scientific journal that SETI had discovered a, had intercepted an interstellar signal that they believe has the potential to be extraterrestrial. But not only that, to be extraterrestrial from a very advanced civilization that's like 96 million light-years away or something like that.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  In the future, probably.

• 47:59Rich Roll?

  Well, there was some, there was some aspect of the signal because of the way it was being emitted, like, in all directions at the same time with great force, that is leading them to believe that this is very advanced. And it's very early on, there's much work to be done to figure out what exactly is going on. And who knows, I have no experience or, you know, knowledge about how all this stuff works. But I think just reading that, like, we're in a time now where, where, I don't know if you've noticed this, but with regularity, you'll read news stories and you're like, "Is that satire or is that real?" Like, the crazy advances that are occurring on an almost daily basis are coming with

• 48:42Rich Roll?

  such regular frequency that you're like, "Oh, yeah, like, oh, you know, artificial intelligence is now doing this." Like, things are happening very, very quickly. And to me, it's easy to get numbed out and go, "Oh, here's another crazy thing that, like, if you'd told me 10 years ago, I would've said was absolutely impossible." But when I read stories like that, like, I don't know if that's true or not, or what's really going on there, but at least it infuses me with a little bit more humility and a sense of awe that... The greater play that is going on is so much more vast than our small brains are able to comprehend, that it's not really my business, you know, what somebody else is doing.

• 49:27Rich Roll?

  Like, how can I-

• 49:28Speaker 01

  We're like, we're like-

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  I'm like, trying to figure out-

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Dude, you're wearing leather shoes, or, you know, you ate meat, or you're eating fake meat, or like, whatever it is. It's just, it's, you know, listen, it's just a, it's a level. But yeah, it's, to me, it's incredibly inspiring and expansive and adventurous and hopeful. It's like, we're much more than a human body. And the one thing that I just want to share is the thing that will keep you in alignment and keep you safe and keep you connected through all of the craziness that's going on as we, sort of the veil thins, we call it. The veil is thinning, and there are many life forms here on the planet and other stuff going on that we've never even seen before. And your way, your

• 50:13Speaker 01

  compass is to connect with your inner heart, to connect with, directly to source and understand that the human being is a divine being. It has a divine blueprint. And we've forgotten that. We've been separated from it. And there's the, you know, allure of consumerism and wanting to stay young and buy more, achieve more, get more. All of this kind of noise that's happening. Also, a lot of the AI is not high vibrating. It's very, very, very, very malevolent to humans. So, understand you're a divine being. Spend the time, cultivate that. Understand that you are God. You're an emanation of God.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  And you incarnated on this planet at this moment in time to grab that, to remember that and reignite that, however that is for you. This is a beautiful time to be on the planet. We should be moving forth in joy, in hope, and with all the energy we can muster to cultivate the higher vibrating energies and experiences. So, again, there's only love. And we have to not buy into the fear programs, to the different events that are being perpetrated on the planet in an effort to keep us from our true nature.

• 51:31Rich Roll?

  I think that's a beautiful place to cap it. I can't imagine ending it on a better note than that. But before we close it down, thank you, that was beautiful. Before we close it down, I kind of wanted to circle back a little bit to this idea of community where we kicked it off. And what I would like to do is try to cultivate greater community around you guys, the listeners, around the podcast audience. And I don't know what that looks like specifically, but I'm interested in creating new ways of doing that. We get lots of emails from a lot of different people from all over the world.

• 52:15Rich Roll?

  It's incredibly touching and moving to receive that and to know that people are being impacted by this program and the work that Julie and I are doing. But how can we bridge the gap between where we are and what we're doing and what all of you guys are doing out there? So whether that means creating a new Facebook page, at least in the virtual landscape, to allow some discussion and some connection around the podcast, I'd be open to doing that. There actually is a Reddit thread under my name right now. It's reddit.com/r/richroll, but no one uses it. So I don't think that's the solution.

• 52:59Rich Roll?

  So if anybody has any thoughts on how we could achieve that, I'd be very interested in hearing that. You can send us an email. Beyond that, perhaps being better about doing meetups when we're in cities, beyond public appearances, like, hey, we're going to eat here, whoever wants to come, or whatever. I want to be able to connect with people in a more in-depth way than we have to date. And, you know, do you have any ideas on how we could do that?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it would be great. I mean, I think eventually-

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Live podcasts is another thing that I've talked a lot about and have yet to do.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  That would be good. I think, um, I think that eventually having a platform that is actually a subscription community is quite powerful, where you can go deeper and more specific into, you know, individual needs and questions. So that would be something. But in the meantime, what some of my listeners on my podcast, Divine Throughline, they've created a Facebook page. And so I've just made three of them admins and they're starting to, we're starting to get that up and running. And, you know, I don't have time for it right now and they're, they're creating the space. And, um, you know, it's worked really well with Plant Power Italia. We have a closed group for that community. So I think it's maybe something like that would

• 54:19Speaker 01

  be really awesome for the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 54:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that could be cool. And, you know, I, I have this Patreon account now that, you know, is for people that really want to go the extra mile and donate to the show. But I want to be able to use that in a way that is of service to the people that are doing that, right? Like if you donate a certain amount, then maybe I can do a monthly, you know, Google Hangout or, you know, I don't know. I, I, I don't know specifically what that would look like, but I want to leverage that platform in a way that is more productive for the people that are contributing.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Right. So if any of you have any ideas or any suggestions, you know, let Rich know. He, his schedule is super busy and it would be great if it was something that was streamlined and, and, you know, easy for you to drop in or, or provide content for. So we just need to figure out the structure, but, you know, I think it would be immense. I mean, I know when I'm out in the community and I meet your podcast fans, it's, you know, they're passionate and they're committed. And I think that they would enjoy this kind of interaction with you.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it would be great. So thanks. All right. So, community and non-judgment, those were the two big themes today. I think the biggest takeaway is work on cultivating the best version of yourself, which is obviously the macro theme of this podcast. And-

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  And to try to cultivate community in your own personal environment, both virtually and on a one-on-one basis if you're feeling lonely, right? Do you have any final thoughts on that?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that remember that you are a divine emanation of God and you were created from a very special, unique blueprint. We need you to be more of who you are. So spend your life cultivating that relationship with yourself and you will bless yourself and everyone around you in the highest divine way.

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  All right, excellent. I think we did it.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 56:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks Julie.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Thanks darling.

• 56:35Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, so I will see you back here in a couple of days, at the most, one week from now. If you're digging on Julie, she's easy to find on the internet. She's at SriMati, S-R-I-M-A-T-I on Instagram and Twitter. But you're really killing it on Instagram right now with all the food photos. Like Julie's hard at work on this cheese book, plant-based cheese book that she's trying to deliver and the photography and the recipes that are coming out of our kitchen factory right now are absolutely insane.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  So if you want to tap into that, check that out. And of course Julie's podcast Divine Through Line.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Divine Through Line is on iTunes and also on SoundCloud. And if you want more spiritual soul food, go there. And also subscribe to my newsletter on my website, shriemati.com for soul food and also free recipes every week. I'm sorry to be teasing you with the cheese. I have a new hashtag that's called CheeseTease. It was given to me by another Instagram follower. I gotta find him, but it was very funny. I think he's a chef too.

• 57:41Rich Roll?

  Because you're putting up all these amazing pictures.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then I don't get the recipe.

• 57:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, everyone's recipe please, recipe please. You're trying to write a book right now.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Right, no. But anyway, I will, I am giving recipes on the weekly newsletter. And also, you know, I'll find some way to give you some gifts and teach you some stuff. But anyway, yeah, so subscribe to the newsletter so you can get that early, early notice and early feed. I'm way early. The release is in 2017, so I don't know exactly when it is. And I just want to thank my beautiful and amazing soul sister, Lea, for taking some amazing photos and being my yoga soul sister.

• 58:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she's doing a great job. And also, if you haven't signed up for my newsletter, you can do that at richroll.com. In addition to weekly podcast updates, I send out something every Thursday called Roll Call, which is a really short email blast with just some cool recommendations, things that I enjoyed reading over the past week, or listening to, or products that I think are cool, just a really basic kind of thing. But people have been enjoying it, the feedback's good, and I'm having a good time putting that together every week, so you can do that. All right? Peace. Plants.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Namaste.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  If you miss the train I'm on, you will know that I am gone. You can hear the whistle blow a hundred miles. A hundred miles, a hundred miles, a hundred miles, a hundred miles. You can hear the whistle blow a hundred miles.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Lord, I'm one, Lord, I'm two, Lord, I'm three, Lord, I'm four, Lord, I'm five hundred miles from my home. Five hundred miles, five hundred miles, five hundred miles, five hundred miles. Lord, I'm five hundred miles from my home.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Not a shirt on my back, not a penny to my name. Lord, I can't go home this away.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  This away, this away, this away, this away. Lord, I can't go home this away.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  If you miss the train I'm on, you will know that I am gone. You can hear the whistle blow a hundred miles.