Zack Snyder, Vol. IV

Welcome Zack Snyder back to HSC! For Zack’s fourth time on the pod, him and Josh catch up at the Toronto International Film Festival, where Zack is premiering his new film, THE LAST PHOTOGRAPH. Also, updates on the 300 prequel series, his ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK remake, and his adaptation of THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Plus, his thoughts on the new DCU, AI in filmmaking, and what he thinks his best movie is. As Zack himself says here, “Start the discourse!” SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENT! 10/13 -- Joe Manganiello in NY -- Tickets here: https://www.92ny.org/event/joe-manganiello-with-josh-horowitz-bloodlines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I forget the woman who wrote the review, but it was basically like, I'm sure Zack Snyder, every time he calls cut, he like, right? No? And I'm just like, that's awesome. Like, that is an awesome, like, first of all, my kids are reading this stuff.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:22Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, coming at you once again from the Toronto International Film Festival, this time with the one and only Zack Snyder. Hey, guys. Thanks as always for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, on whatever podcast platform you are using. This is our second episode coming at you out of Toronto. If you haven't caught up with our Gary Oldman conversation that I recorded in front of a live audience, please do so. An absolute legend and a great, great chat. This is kind of like, I mean, a really interesting companion piece. Who would have expected of all filmmakers Zack Snyder to come to a film festival with an independent film? But that is where he is at. This is

• 1:05Josh Horowitz?

  a passion project he is talking about. It is his new film, The Last Photograph. And look, all props to Zack, who is, of course, a regular on Happy Sad Confused. This is his fourth time on the show, and he is always a great conversation, honest to a fault, perhaps, for his, you know, his reputation, which can, it can get him into trouble, I guess, just in terms of like, just how honest he is about criticism and intention and all of that. He is, as we all know, a lightning rod. Always has been, always will be. That is the nature. And to contextualize this a little bit, if you haven't seen the headlines, his film is, is called The Last Photograph. It is kind of a down and dirty Zack Snyder

• 1:49Josh Horowitz?

  film. He deep heated himself. He was the camera operator, independently financed. This is a passion project that's been in the works for over two decades. Tells the story of two men, one kind of lost soul photographer, one who is out for some kind of redemption, revenge after horrible tragedy befalls some of his family members. And they kind of go on this like Heart of Darkness, Apocalypse Now-esque adventure journey. It is violent, it is sexual, it is divisive, as all Zack Snyder films are. As we recorded our conversation, it was just hours after the big premiere, the night before, at Toronto. First time

• 2:32Josh Horowitz?

  it's ever been seen in front of an audience. I was there. And look, the reviews are all over the place. And we talk about it in this conversation. Look it up for yourself. It is loved by the Snyder heads, it is hated by critics, it's somewhere in between, it falls. I respect Zack for who he is and the way he carries himself. And look, some of his films are more for me than others, but I do respect always him being true to himself. And that certainly is what The Last Photograph is. We don't know where this is going to end up yet as we record this. It is up for, you know, sale for distribution. I'm sure it will land somewhere. It will find an appropriate home. But this is an interesting conversation because it kind of captures a moment in time as Zack was literally like still like reading the reviews and the reception and kind of laughing about,

• 3:16Josh Horowitz?

  you know, the divisiveness of it all, but also knowing this kind of goes with the territory for him. Quick note on the production of this. This was shot here in my, my sad little hotel room, if you're watching this in Toronto. We unfortunately had some major audio problems that we didn't discover until afterwards. Luckily, we had some backup audio recording. I don't even actually know the quality of it as I record this intro. I hope it's not too crappy, but I know it will be usable. I know it will be good enough to listen to. But my apologies because it's, it's certainly not up to our usual standards here at Happy Sad Confused. And don't worry, the aesthetic will improve once I get back home to New York and we're back in the home studio, I promise you. But look, when you can get Gary

• 3:59Josh Horowitz?

  Oldman and Zack Snyder at a film festival, you do it. Remember, as always, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happy sad confused for early access, discount codes, access to our live events, all sorts of fun stuff. I should also mention in this conversation, while we talk a lot about Last Photograph, of course, we talk about other things. We talk about 300 and its 20th anniversary. We talk about the 300 prequel series that he's working on, about Escape from New York, which he's going to be directing, I think, next. We talk about some superhero stuff, needless to say, of course, we do. This will, as always, generate headlines, I'm sure. I always appreciate Zack's willingness to be, as I said, frank and open and good humored and good natured. He is, he's always welcome

• 4:44Josh Horowitz?

  on this podcast. So I know you guys are going to dig this. Check it out. And I'm not sure when you'll be able to see The Last Photograph, but now you'll know a little bit more about what all the fuss is about after this conversation. Enjoy. Zack, should we do this?

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 4:58Josh Horowitz?

  Here we go. We're in Toronto, volume four of Happy Sad Confused with Zack Snyder. That's good to see you, man.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  It's good to see you. Thanks for having me. This, what day is it? Monday morning.

• 5:08Josh Horowitz?

  It's a lot. Look, you're coming off of hours after your world premiere of The Last Photograph. I was there. Congratulations.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 5:15Josh Horowitz?

  Look, it's, it's a lot to process any kind of debut. Putting yourself out there is always a big thing.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:21Josh Horowitz?

  And this is a new experience for a number of reasons we'll get to. Just first of all, how you feeling, man? I mean, like,

• 5:27Speaker 00

  I feel good. I feel good. Actually, I feel good. I think that the, it's, it's, I guess, you know, at this point, like, the predictable discourse around my, my, what I do, I guess, is very, it's like a palatable thing. Like, the lines are clearly drawn, you know, which I think is really interesting. And I, I think in a lot of ways, maybe because of Netflix and because, you know, the films on Netflix are a little bit kind of like, they exist in a bubble, like, you can't really, like, they're kind of impenetrable.

• 6:00Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  You could talk about them all day and like, no, that doesn't make a difference. You know what I mean? That's like a, it's an ecosystem that kind of, it feeds on itself. People don't really, when you go on Netflix, you like, oh, let's say it's a space movie, Rebel Moon, Charlie, watch that. You know, like, there's no like, you know, there's no,

• 6:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's easy volume.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  It's just like, yeah, it is what it is. Oh, yeah, sure. That's fine. And so, but it's just interesting to sort of be like in the trenches with a movie, especially a movie like this. It's kind of tiny. And, you know, we kind of, it's a lot of, yes, it's a tone poem. And so, yeah, that, that description right there is going to evoke.

• 6:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Like, oh, here's pretentious Zack. He's going,

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

• 6:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's also the context, like to set the scene, we're at the Toronto International Film Festival.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 6:51Josh Horowitz?

  You are not like historically the film festival guy. You are like,

• 6:54Speaker 00

  I've never been to a film festival before. Well, I was at a film festival. We were into the, we took 300. You're familiar with that movie?

• 7:01Josh Horowitz?

  I've heard of it. Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, we took the movie, we took 300 to,

• 7:04Josh Horowitz?

  With Southfire or Fantastic?

• 7:06Speaker 00

  It's about three, it's a, it's not a math movie. It's a, it's a, it's a,

• 7:11Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, good to know.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  It's a war movie.

• 7:12Josh Horowitz?

  It's the Beautiful Minds prequel.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, exactly. But we took that to the Berlin Film Festival. And there was a huge, it kind of actually turned me off to film festivals because there was a massive, like, there was like this whole thing about like the movies, like fascist and, and, and there's like, everybody walked out and booed the movie. And it was like this huge thing. We were like, ah, what the fuck happened?

• 7:36Josh Horowitz?

  Like, a test screening, everyone's loving it. And then all of a sudden,

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Literally, we took it and it was like, just a complete disaster. We thought, like, the movie was DOA. And we had a press conference and all the like, German press was asking me why, what's it like to be a fascist filmmaker? And I was just like, what, what has happened? I remember one of the great comments was, are you pro-gay or pro-NRA?

• 8:04Josh Horowitz?

  That was the choice? That was the binary?

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Those are my two. And I go, look, I gotta be honest, I'm a little bit of both.

• 8:13Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel like exposed when you're like at a premiere and like something, especially like this? That is a passion project. That is something that you did on your own terms, like,

• 8:21Speaker 00

  You know, the truth is, it's constant. It's not, you know, it's a constant, the discourse around the movies and the choices and the, you know, whether it be Justice League or anything I'm doing, the, the discourse is like, for me, is day, on the daily. So it's,

• 8:42Josh Horowitz?

  So you're a little immune to it, maybe?

• 8:43Speaker 00

  I'm slightly immune to it, but it's interesting. I'm fascinated by it in some ways, too. Like, I saw this one review of the movie was like, fuck you, Zack Snyder. I want to kill you.

• 8:54Josh Horowitz?

  And yet you still came to my interview.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  And I thought that was, I was like, you know what? That's awesome. Haven't seen the movie yet.

• 9:03Josh Horowitz?

  Preemptive.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Preemptive fuck you to Zack Snyder. I was like, okay, wow, that's like, at least that's like, you feel something, you know? You could, you could say a lot about my movies, but, you know, I can't, I don't think like, you know, you get a lot of like, kind of,

• 9:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, there's not like, eh, it was all right.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  It was whatever. I don't, I don't really remember it, to be honest. You know, I think that that, and that's, I mean, I can't, that's my, that's what I'm trying to do, I guess.

• 9:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Do you, I mean, so this one, to set up a little bit of like where we are and how we got here, you've been working on this on and off for 20 plus years with the co-writer.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:39Josh Horowitz?

  What kept you coming back to it? It's, it does strike me that like you're in the era of like your passion projects, whether it's like the Fame Snyder Cut, whether it's Rebel Moon, which was kind of like on and off for years.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 9:49Josh Horowitz?

  And now here, this one. Was this kind of more of like just circumstance? Like, you had a,

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, literally, I mean, literally, we've had it just sort of set up and ready to go for a long, long time. And how to do it was always the question. Now, we, I think, I think the budget, when we had a budget at Warner Brothers, it was like $50 million, right?

• 10:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  And so I was like, no, I mean, not that I was like, no, we can't do it for that much, but.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  It was like an in-between movie, right?

• 10:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  It's not like a blockbuster, but it's not like a low-budget movie. It's kind of that weird middle movie. And I was like, I just don't, I don't feel like it's ready.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  But, and then we had other director who was gonna do the movie. We had other stars, you know, along the way.

• 10:33Josh Horowitz?

  It was Christian and Sean Penn, right?

• 10:35Speaker 00

  And so it was like, and then, you know, just recently, you know, I was gonna do the UFC movie. And then we kind of put that on hold. And then as soon as that got put on hold, I was like, oh, like I have a little window. Like let's, I'm not gonna do nothing.

• 10:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  And so we were like, let's just go make last photographs. So we cobbled together a tiny amount of money and went and shot it. And so it was like, it's kind of like a last second decision and kind of did a little bit on a lark. And yeah, so it was just fun to do. And it was fun to go shoot with all my friends and just kind of, you know, be really like, it'd be really raw. And just, you know, take the camera and see what you can do.

• 11:16Josh Horowitz?

  It does feel like, like just thematically, it is like all the potpourri that is you. Like it is your love of photography. It has like, look, you love a good damaged man. You got two in this one.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:27Josh Horowitz?

  One's kind of like searching for revenge. One's kind of a lost soul that just kind of like is looking for a purpose in life and.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, sort of like one's kind of been devoured by the, by images. One's been kind of had images fuck them up, you know, which I feel like is kind of like, that's kind of, I like that as a character, you know?

• 11:44Josh Horowitz?

  And, and look, we've talked about your influences over the years. Um, you, you gotta feel apocalypse now watching this, like they're down the river.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, no, it's very Conradian in its, that's a descriptive.

• 11:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I think so. So did this evolve a lot or is it essentially kind of like, I know the setting changed over the years, but is it?

• 12:01Speaker 00

  It's essentially, I think it's thematically the same story. Yeah. I mean, it's essentially always been these two guys like going, we always talked about it like you almost, they're traveling like back in time.

• 12:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  In some ways as they travel into the movie.

• 12:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And, and approach, approach wise, I mean, like it's so funny to hear you talk about like, you know, we wanted to do this like small movie. Like by the standards of like an indie filmmaker, this would be their biggest movie by an exponential rep, like, uh, you know, like factor. It's, it's got scale, it feels big, it's got helicopters and giant like action. Did it feel, I mean, is this, I guess this is in for you probably smallest since dawn of the day.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  No, the smallest ever by, by, by so much. I can't tell you what the budget was right now.

• 12:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  That will be revealed at some point.

• 12:48Josh Horowitz?

  Like are you using your own equipment? Like, how are you finding the quarters to cut like to?

• 12:52Speaker 00

  I'm just doing all the jobs. That's how we did it.

• 12:54Josh Horowitz?

  DP camera off like a lot of the time?

• 12:56Speaker 00

  That was the camera operator for every shot.

• 12:58Josh Horowitz?

  You're literally holding the camera.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Every single shot, yeah. Literally for the, if you look on my Instagram, there's a really good, there's a lot of good pictures. There's that one picture that really I think tells the story of the movie. I could, we can, you know, I don't know how the podcast.

• 13:12Josh Horowitz?

  We can put it like.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  This is it right here. And I, yeah, but anyway, it's like me holding the camera. And I, and Stuart's like crying when he's holding the sort of the chief of the, of the indigenous guy in the, in the rainforest.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  And like, you look at that shot and it's like me and an apple box. And I'm just like sitting on the apple box pointing up. And it's like, that's pretty much the whole way the movie was made in a lot of ways. So.

• 13:40Josh Horowitz?

  And what, what does that do for you? Like you, you, you've DP'd the last few films, but being like, I mean, being the camera off, like you're in it. I mean, obviously you're always in it as the director.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  It's, I, I enjoy it. I gotta be honest. I like it much more. It's like much less tedious, weirdly. It's much more intimate and I, I really kind of, I'm more interested in the movie, you know? Like, cause I'm kind of like responsible.

• 14:04Josh Horowitz?

  For every single shot you're there.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:07Josh Horowitz?

  I found it interesting at the Q and A last night, you were, they were, someone asked you about kind of like, you know, it's a dark film. It's a heavy, heavy shit in this movie. And like they were asking kind of like the toll it takes on you and your actors. And like by the time you're on set though, it sounds like you're just like, you know, you've dealt with all that shit. And then you're just about getting the shots.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  And we're also just like, you know, we're kind of having a good time. Like as soon as like, we're not rolling, we're like laughing, it's like ridiculous. And like, those guys are so lovely to be around, you know? So like, when I'm not like, when they're not like crying and like fighting, and I say cut, they're like, oh my God, that's hilarious. Okay. You know, we should do is blah, blah, blah, tell story, this, that. Okay. Ready? Well, let's shoot again. You know, so it's a very, it's just a real like, um, it's just like a lovely experience, you know?

• 14:52Josh Horowitz?

  Does it feel, so like you talked about how like, this is kind of like more about the circumstance of having the whole of the schedule. It's not like, is it, cause I think a lot of people are gonna be quick to say it's a reaction to kind of where you were at, like, you know, Rebel Moon.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  I, I don't think it was a reaction though. I, I, I mean, I'd love, I'd like that narrative, but it's just not really true. I mean, I think it was like a thing that was, the only way to make it was to make it this way. And I think the real experiment was like, can we do it? Like it was, that was the experiment, like have we gotten too spun into like the giant world of cinema where like you just physically don't know how to.

• 15:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You've lost a lot a little bit.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like you can't like, unless I have like a cappuccino, like or whatever, I don't know how, I, I don't know what that would be. But like, unless I have like all the bells and whistles, I can't physically do it. And I was like, you know, I just was thinking like, okay, if I have a camera and an actor, I can make a movie. You know, like that's it. That's all I need. And you're probably doing it with my phone. But like, you know, that'll be next.

• 15:49Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly. You don't even.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Well, I've done an iPhone movie, so that's, I mean, a little tiny one, but.

• 15:54Josh Horowitz?

  Did you?

• 15:54Speaker 00

  I did, I did like, if you go on my Verro, you'll see I did that Snow's Team Iron. I did it like in 2017.

• 16:00Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  But I did this little like, I was gonna teach a class up at Art Center.

• 16:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  And because I was really, I really wanted to like, we had like basics, right? Of film and like what the cool thing about it is we had Super 8. So when you shoot a Super 8 movie, you know, it's not the movie that's going to be the movie that like is start your career.

• 16:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Cause you know, it's just like, it's practice.

• 16:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Feels like.

• 16:23Josh Horowitz?

  You're getting the hours in.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  It's like a sketch.

• 16:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  It's like you have a sketchbook.

• 16:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Well, I just feel like, you know, a lot of times in film school, because now in the like most, in the basic classes,

• 16:36Speaker 00

  people have, um, use real cameras.

• 16:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  You know, so they don't know.

• 16:39Josh Horowitz?

  There's a starter kit.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  They kind of think like, oh, maybe this is the movie.

• 16:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  And so I was like, oh no, let's do an iPhone class where we talk about the real kind of nuts and bolts of making a movie.

• 16:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Nuts and bolts of shooting, scene, creation, all that stuff. And we can really walk through it in a kind of very, kind of methodical way. You know, the, the things that a lot of times I think in film school, like they assume you know.

• 17:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  And you, you just don't really have like real scene construction, like language.

• 17:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  And they, and, and so I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun. And, and really to make like a film every two weeks and really crank, you know, like a five-minute movie every two weeks, go.

• 17:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  And we had that when I would, when I had my basics of film at Art Center, we literally had a film due every two weeks. And they had to be good and they had to be interesting and whatever. And so I, I had this whole idea, like, I was like, oh, we're gonna do it, shoot with an iPhone, edited, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then like, I remember Debbie said to me like, you know, you've never really shot a movie on an iPhone. So you have this huge idea about like making iPhone movies, but do you, is that possible?

• 17:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  So I was like, oh shit, you're right. So I was like, okay, so I just on, like I took a weekend and I just shot a little movie, basically with my phone. And it's on the internet, so you can check it out. It's called Snow's Team Iron.

• 17:53Josh Horowitz?

  There it is.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Shot on iPhone.

• 17:55Josh Horowitz?

  There it is. More Happy, Say Confused, coming up.

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• 19:50Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, so going forward with this, okay, so it's out in the world, people have seen it, a small, not, not a lot of people have seen it.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  No, not a lot.

• 19:56Josh Horowitz?

  Um, like, what is the goal? Like, is there an ideal kind of, like, home for this that you hope that this lands at?

• 20:03Josh Horowitz?

  Are you looking on the big screen, I assume?

• 20:05Speaker 00

  I would love it on the big screen, I just think that it's, um, you know, I, I, I can, I'm super excited for more visceral reactions to the movie.

• 20:15Josh Horowitz?

  So it's this love hate, it's like you like, oh, I wish people would just be kind, but you also, you get off on it a little bit.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  I mean, it's just the reality, like, if I didn't, I would just, like, not do this, you know, like, I'm, I, I don't know how I've entered into this,

• 20:31Speaker 00

  you know, in the, into this narrative, um, where like the, the movies are so divisive and so, you know, it's just a movie, it's not really a, it's not that, if you, if you, if, if, if after you see this, you're like, boy, I gotta see that Zack Snyder movie, apparently it's crazy. You might be slightly, I, I'm not gonna say you're gonna be disappointed, but like, it's not, it's not like, it's not like another, like, it, you know, you're not gonna be like, oh my god, it's so violent and sexually deprived and all those, depraved and deprived. It's actually more sexually deprived actually than it is depraved.

• 21:06Josh Horowitz?

  Within the first thirty seconds, you'll feel that, yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  No, but yeah, in the first, like, yeah, in the first, like, five minutes of the movie, it's pretty, it's pretty, it's pretty hilarious. It's pretty hilarious, yeah. Um, but like, also, it's just, I, I don't know, like, I think, you know, people think,

• 21:24Speaker 00

  people would take it, and I understand that, like, as super earnest, right?

• 21:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  But I'm also like a very, um, self-aware, like, people think I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but like, I'm incredibly self-aware, like, I understand kitsch, like, kitsch is my favorite genre, it is what, I, I can't help myself. Like, you've watched Three Hundred, you watch Watchmen, you watch any of my movies, Rebel Moon, anyone, if you don't think I,

• 21:54Josh Horowitz?

  You get a joke.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  You don't think kitsch, kitsch is like, and I mean kitsch in the high art way, not in like, you know, whatever, like, uh,

• 22:01Josh Horowitz?

  Snarky.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Snarky, yeah, like, you know, camp, there's a big difference between camp and kitsch, right? Kitsch is like, the kitsch school of like art is very sophisticated, like, self-aware, deconstructivist way of making movies. And that's in my DNA, and I think that, like, people think that I, I love that when people try and get in my head and think the way I think, and I think that I always am super excited about that, because I, I find it really amusing, because it's, it, it's the way they, the way they, they position me as some sort of, like, I remember this one review, um, in, do you remember those, um,

• 22:44Speaker 00

  do they still exist? Uh, fuck, what, the, um, I think they're out of Chicago, it was a film.

• 22:51Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, AV Club?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  AV Club, it was an AV Club review, and I forget the woman who wrote the review, but it was basically like, I'm sure Zack Snyder, every time he calls cut, he like jerks off, right? No? And I'm just like, that's awesome, like, that is an awesome, like, first of all, my kids are reading this stuff, so, um, but like, I just think that it was like, I just was like, that's such a, like, cool, like,

• 23:17Josh Horowitz?

  If they only knew, though.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  One millimeter deep, like, you know, I wish I was that shallow, that would be amazing, like, so much easier.

• 23:25Josh Horowitz?

  People also, like, it's so funny, you're kind of co-opted by both sides of the political spectrum, right? Like, often it feels like, oh, I, I mean, I've seen some comments here, it's like, oh, this, this could go to the Daily Wire, this is like so extreme right fascist, et cetera, like,

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's cool, I don't, I don't understand, I don't understand the, yeah, I, sure, I think I have, absolutely.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  Absolutely, um, you know, it's, look, it's, it's, it's, I thought like, you know, I think last photograph is a lot like Barbie, you know, in some ways, you know, in, in that it's like, you know, sort of, you know, I made it from my perspective, you know, and it's, it's, yeah, is it, is it two men on a journey? It is. That's, I'm not gonna apologize for being, for having two male characters in the movie, and there, yeah, there's not a, but also, like, you know,

• 24:28Speaker 00

  are they haunted, is, is the one character haunted by this, this woman that he's loved his whole life and, and couldn't make it, like, it's not about whether or not she's in the movie, right, like, if, if, if the criticism is like, you know, there's no female characters in the movie, well, there is female character in the movie, she doesn't have, she happens to have, her presence is the actual catalyst for every single thing that happens in the movie, even like, the idea that like,

• 25:01Speaker 00

  if you watch this movie, um, and your point of view is that, well, why, why didn't we, like, really flesh out that female character and have a whole, like, really have her, like, be a, because that's not the movie.

• 25:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  It's not like a, it's not a, it's not a choice of like, me excluding, or like, characterizing, like, making a cliche of the female character because we rarely see it.

• 25:30Josh Horowitz?

  It also says something about the characters.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  How it echoes through your existence, we all carry those problems.

• 25:35Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it says something about the men, too, the, the guy that's haunted, it's like, is he viewing her as a full?

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Person, at that point, but like, all, we all have relationships where we like,

• 25:44Josh Horowitz?

  You put a lot on.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  You put all these things onto it that just aren't there, probably, you know? And like, you, you, you, you know, we like, are the, are the people, these past relationships you've had in your life, when you remember the person, do you remember them as a full fleshed out character, or do you remember the bits of the person that affected you in certain ways and made you sad or happy or whatever? You, that's how you remember people.

• 26:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, the idealized version.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Of course, of course.

• 26:14Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, so go.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  He has, he literally has like a nude photograph of the woman, that she did on purpose, by the way. Like, it's not a, that, that's how I remember you, like, I'm gonna fuck you up, like, I'm leaving you, I'm doing, like, the relationship's over, I'm gonna let you take one photograph of me before I leave, and in it, I'm gonna like, take my clothes off, and that I'm gonna leave you with, so suck on that.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Like, that's not ever happened to you?

• 26:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Come on, we all have that picture, where is it? Sorry to me, show me the picture, you've all got it, it's on your phone now, because we don't have Polaroids anymore.

• 26:51Josh Horowitz?

  This is true, is this?

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Don't tweet it.

• 26:54Josh Horowitz?

  Don't.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:55Josh Horowitz?

  That's your PSA from Zack.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  Everybody tweet it into my feed, I wanna see everybody's last photograph, personal last photograph.

• 27:01Josh Horowitz?

  Hashtag personal last photograph.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, what is last photograph to you?

• 27:06Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my god.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  There it is.

• 27:07Josh Horowitz?

  There it is, we just created your marketing campaign.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  It really is.

• 27:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is this, is this the final cut, or would you, like, are you like, are you delivering this to like a, a studio or streamer as is?

• 27:16Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 27:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, this is the Snyder, about the Snyder.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  I don't know what to do to it.

• 27:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  So more violence? I don't know.

• 27:24Josh Horowitz?

  I, I think, I think you got it.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Okay, good.

• 27:27Josh Horowitz?

  So, can I ask you some, some other things going off of where you're at? Um, I know Escape from New York is on the docket.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:33Josh Horowitz?

  Um, are there any lessons from this experience that you're gonna apply?

• 27:38Speaker 00

  It's the same lessons I always get, it's not, I don't know that there's any, I mean.

• 27:44Josh Horowitz?

  So what's the approach? What's, because, I mean, look, we all revere, come on, Escape from New York is a totemic film for all of us.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Oh, no, the approach is for me to like, well, I mean, you know, the movie's gonna be set in, in ninety-seven, um, you know, it's sort of a, it's a, you know, from the perspective of nineteen eighty-one, um, I set the movie, uh, the, the sort of, the war between, you know, the United States Police Force and the elements, criminal elements, um, takes place, um, in, I think, July ninth, nineteen eighty-one, which is the release date of the original movie, right?

• 28:22Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  So, and then, you know, there's a bit of a, and then the rest is pretty much Escape from New York, you know, just, I think it's, um, I mean, and also talk about a movie that is like, you know, it's like, it's, it's the perfect combination of kitsch and camp, and

• 28:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  It's all the things, that's why it's, I love it, you know, it's like, but also, it's a way that satire and can, can get to us, you know, like, we can, we can make comments about, you know, government and all the, you know, overreach or whatever you want to call it, you know, the, the People's Liberation Front of America, you know, all that stuff is very like, that's, that's in the headlines, so it's, it's a really, it's quite a, it's quite, I think it's quite a, um, it's a, it's a, it's a current in some ways.

• 29:15Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, do you have your snake fliskin?

• 29:18Speaker 00

  I may.

• 29:19Josh Horowitz?

  Someone you worked with before?

• 29:20Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna say.

• 29:23Josh Horowitz?

  Is snake gonna look like, is like the eye patch the same, yeah, you gotta keep it.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  He better look like snake, or he's like, I, I'll, I'll walk out.

• 29:33Josh Horowitz?

  I did talk to Jeffrey Dean Morgan recently, and he was saying that he's been hitting you up, whether it's snake or another.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  He literally has been hitting me up for, but, yeah, he's just been like, I don't know.

• 29:44Josh Horowitz?

  Did he send you an audition tape, a growl, like a little?

• 29:46Speaker 00

  He doesn't need to send me a growl, I got plenty of that. No, he's the best, I love him.

• 29:50Josh Horowitz?

  He's great.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  He's great.

• 29:52Josh Horowitz?

  He was telling me when I, when I talked to him, how you used to kind of like tease him, egg him on, on DBS, like, flashpoint, like, just sort of like tease that it was coming. Was that, was?

• 30:03Speaker 00

  That's, that's cool.

• 30:04Josh Horowitz?

  Was that, was you, was it part of the plan for J O?

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 30:07Josh Horowitz?

  It could have been.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:09Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have kind of?

• 30:09Speaker 00

  And Jeffrey's great, you know, he's, he's so strong.

• 30:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  You know, a lot of, a lot of people, like, you know, do a cameo, and you're like, oh, that's, that's a ballsy cameo, because, you know, that person obviously couldn't sustain like, like an actual storyline, you know?

• 30:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  But he obviously can.

• 30:26Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, he's amazing.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 05

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• 31:10Josh Horowitz?

  Most writers have written really terrible stories. The only thing different about me is that I kept them all. And on my brand new show, Character Development, I'm gonna force my very talented actor friends to read them with me. There are teen slashers where every character sounds edgy as hell. There's sci-fi giants that read just a little bit too much, like giant penises. And there's a murderer who enjoys musical theater for some reason. Listen to Character Development, a comedy podcast, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 31:46Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so if you'll indulge me, a few random things. 20th anniversary, 300, you're saying?

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 31:51Josh Horowitz?

  Let's go. Okay, when you look back at that one, all your films, so many iconic moments and shots, can you take me back to the This Is Sparta, like, moment? Like, there's no way to go too big on that, right? Like, you know, like, you're going-

• 32:05Speaker 00

  You know, I've heard Jerry tell this story a few times, about the This Is Sparta.

• 32:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. What's true, what's your recollection?

• 32:11Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I hear his version. I hear it.

• 32:15Josh Horowitz?

  That sounds a little-

• 32:16Speaker 00

  I hear it. It's, sure, sure.

• 32:18Josh Horowitz?

  What's your version?

• 32:19Speaker 00

  I just think that

• 32:23Speaker 00

  there, from my point of view, there was, in the comic book, This Is Sparta is written with exclamation points, you know, so I-

• 32:33Josh Horowitz?

  You leaned into the fatal annotation.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  It, it, and he did an amazing job. Like, that line is iconic, right? Like, it's beyond. And I just think that, yeah, the moment, I just remember, um, you know, him doing that version and being like, okay, good. All right, we got, we can, now, what else?

• 32:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  What else we got? Like, let's-

• 32:56Josh Horowitz?

  Moving on.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  There's other things to do.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  We have that, because that's correct. So, yeah, no, I'm, um, yeah, like, I, I, yeah, it's fantastic. And, you know, it's a, it's a pretty, um, it's a very rich universe, the 300 Universe.

• 33:11Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, so it sounds like we're finally getting close to you returning to that-

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:14Josh Horowitz?

  To that universe, in a TV form, yes?

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Uh, yes.

• 33:19Josh Horowitz?

  It's the prequel, it's the-

• 33:19Speaker 00

  And like-

• 33:21Josh Horowitz?

  There's nobody here.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  I'm looking around. Is that cool? Can I say that?

• 33:24Josh Horowitz?

  We know that there's been in development-

• 33:26Speaker 00

  Okay, great.

• 33:26Josh Horowitz?

  -a TV series.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Okay, good. All right, great, yes.

• 33:28Josh Horowitz?

  And it sounds like, it does feel like there's-

• 33:30Speaker 00

  It does feel like it's very exciting and very good.

• 33:32Josh Horowitz?

  Would you direct any portion of it, or?

• 33:35Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 33:36Josh Horowitz?

  That's exciting.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:38Josh Horowitz?

  Well, there was also a, obviously, there was the sequel film that you did direct, but like, there was another script you guys wrote, right? Like, a third film? Like, or-

• 33:46Speaker 00

  There was a third film, but as I was writing it, it literally got, it was an Alexander the Great story-

• 33:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  -that got hijacked by history when I did my research. And it turned into this, um, it's a script that exists, I had never made into a movie, but it, um, it's a love story, it turned into a love story between Alexander and Hephaestian, and it just completely diverged from the 300 Universe completely, and became its own thing, and now is a complete, it's, it just, I had to go back to everyone and say, I didn't, I didn't, they were like, go write a 300 sequel. And I was like, cool. And then I came back and I said, I didn't do it.

• 34:24Josh Horowitz?

  I wrote something, it's not that.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  I wrote a thing, but it's not that. And they were like, what happened? And I was like, yeah, I just fell in love with this other story and I wrote it, and, sorry.

• 34:33Josh Horowitz?

  So that's not, that didn't become the prequel series?

• 34:35Speaker 00

  No.

• 34:35Josh Horowitz?

  So, is you gonna say anything about what the topic or characters are in the prequel series?

• 34:39Speaker 00

  In the prequel series? I mean, I don't, I don't think I'm allowed to say.

• 34:43Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  I would love to-

• 34:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we'll move on.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  But I'm allowed to. But it's cool.

• 34:46Josh Horowitz?

  I believe it.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  It's very cool.

• 34:48Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I feel like we've been talking ever since Sucker Punch came out about the director's cut revisiting it, like, what the-

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Oh, of Sucker Punch. Yeah, I would love that. That's like, it's just like, it's one of those things, like, where, every time I, I call over to Warner Brothers to say, like, okay, we should do the director's cut of Sucker Punch, because, obviously, there's a lot of conversation. Um, it's like, there's all these, like, weird things of, like, you have to wait for some licenses to completely-

• 35:15Josh Horowitz?

  I see.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  -finish, because if I've, say I've bought the original Sucker Punch, or whatever, or one of the versions-

• 35:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  And I'm showing it on my streaming service or somewhere, and then I release the director's cut, apparently that diminishes the value of the thing that I bought. And so, I, I don't know, that's what I've been told.

• 35:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  It might be bullshit.

• 35:37Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good excuse.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  But I go, oh, yeah.

• 35:39Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, okay. But on the docket, one day, when the-

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Definitely on the docket.

• 35:43Josh Horowitz?

  The rights occurrences-

• 35:43Speaker 00

  Definitely on the docket. Yeah.

• 35:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  I gotta get the girls back for a couple, like, via, like, a little ADR here and there too, so.

• 35:51Josh Horowitz?

  Are any of the past, I mean, you've kind of revisited all the works in different ways, I feel like. Is there anything left in the, in the, in the past work to kind of revisit for a-

• 35:59Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 35:59Josh Horowitz?

  No, you've done it.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  I've really done it. I really mined it.

• 36:03Josh Horowitz?

  Are you okay-

• 36:04Speaker 00

  I've raked it over the coals.

• 36:05Josh Horowitz?

  Are you okay with some of these random ones here? Can I, because I-

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Fine with the random ones. It all feels like the random ones, so, fine.

• 36:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's all good, it's all good. Okay. So, did you ever explore a Jor-El kind of spin off or anything? Because I always loved the opening sequence of, of Man of Steel. And I know, I know Russell talked about, like, oh, he would have loved to explore more there. Was that, there ever a serious conversation of anything more there?

• 36:26Speaker 00

  There was a small conversation we had about, um, some sort of prequel, you know, Zod, Jor-El, early days-

• 36:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  -kind of world, but it was always just, I think it was fun.

• 36:41Josh Horowitz?

  The, I talked to you a lot about casting, about all your different famous iconic roles over the years. I never talked about Lois, and I was always curious on that. Kristen Stewart, Zoe Saldana, were any of these folks, like, almost your Lois?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Zoe was.

• 36:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Um, but Amy was just like, Amy, you know, like, I just felt like, you know, as far as like, America's sweetheart, kind of like, perfect.

• 37:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  You know, she had, she had moxie.

• 37:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yep. Leaning into kind of just like, the, the iconic-

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:15Josh Horowitz?

  Like, that's-

• 37:15Speaker 00

  I just really, I mean, I mean, I love Zoe, so it was really hard.

• 37:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Um, and I thought Zoe's like, very, she's always power strong.

• 37:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  And she's always like, just so, so good. Um, but like, I, I don't know, Amy was just like, just felt, she, and I don't mean this, I mean this in a good way, like, she felt like very, very much on the nose.

• 37:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  But she's such a good actress-

• 37:45Josh Horowitz?

  She's a great actress.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  And she's actually able to do it.

• 37:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  And actually able to make it into something other than what it is.

• 37:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  You know, which I think is, like, that's the ultimate thing. Like, you, you think you did the obvious thing, but then the way the person does it is still like-

• 37:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  -better.

• 38:00Josh Horowitz?

  But the last couple times, I feel like we've talked, we've kind of, you know, we talked about the journey through the comic book universe, and kind of like, it seemed like, you said to me, maybe not in these exact words, that you kind of needed a break. You needed, like, to kind of detox a little bit, because you, you just went through it, obviously.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Surely.

• 38:14Josh Horowitz?

  Where are you at now? Like, are you consuming film, comics, anything, or are you still kind of on, I need, I need some distance from that world?

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Um, no, I mean, a little bit, but, you know, I still, I mean, look, the truth is, you know, I've already ignited some, and, you know, I, I don't think it's, not falsely, but like, you know, without any real, I mean, like I said, Dark Knight Returns is like the real, for me, it's a slight Holy Grail.

• 38:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Because I think to, to have done Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns is really like, that's the-

• 38:57Josh Horowitz?

  That's the binary that defines the whole.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  That's it. If you've done those two, you can really, you could, I, it'd be hard to call bullshit on me-

• 39:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Are you reading comics? Like, I, people love, like, absolute-

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Not really. I read a comic recently, um, called Dead Samurai, which is a zombie-

• 39:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  A zombie story set in sort of feudal Japan, which obviously is awesome. And so-

• 39:26Josh Horowitz?

  Checks the boxes for you.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Some to think, some, if you're interested, you can go check it out.

• 39:30Josh Horowitz?

  We're, we're there, I got a chance to catch up with, with Gall, actually, recently, and we were talking about kind of like, you know, the, the, the end for each of kind of like, your characters in that universe was, well, it was unfortunate, and James has talked about, like, it was, it was just not ideal, the way it kind of like, all went down for various reasons. Like, do you feel like there was like, a definitive moment for you, where you knew, like, your time in that universe was done? Like, was there a phone call, an email, a moment, or was it kind of like, a slow kind of disintegration of you kind of exiting that world?

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Eee, I mean, oh, jeez. I mean, that whole saga around me leaving was, um,

• 40:13Speaker 00

  yeah, I think that, um, when Debbie came back to me after watching the cut of Justice League, the Joss cut of Justice League, and she said, you are to never see that movie, I knew it was kind of, that was, that was, that was it. And I thought, okay, that's gonna be the legacy. It's just gonna be, and I believe, and I haven't seen this, but I believe that in the, um, in the title sequence of, I've seen it memed, so I'm not 100% sure how it works.

• 40:49Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  There, on my, on my, where it says, directed by Zack Snyder-

• 40:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  There is a homeless person that has a, I think they have a thing that says, I tried, or something like that.

• 41:02Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  And I find it really like, and like, I was like, wow, that's cool, that's a good, like, if I hadn't done my Justice League, that would have been the end of it.

• 41:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  So that's, that, that, you can imagine, that's a cool, that's cool.

• 41:15Josh Horowitz?

  So, you still haven't seen the Joss cut?

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Never not.

• 41:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. There's, is there enough alcohol in the universe to get you to watch that?

• 41:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:25Josh Horowitz?

  I get it. And you and to clarify, because I know you talked to, I think Hollywood Reporter the other day. So while you support James and your friends.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 41:32Josh Horowitz?

  You you haven't seen that film for whatever reason.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just I honestly, it's just, you know, like, it's a personal thing, you know, for me. Like, I want it, I want success for them, and I I I I think that, you know, I trust James's like aesthetic and like his take. It's a very kind of, you know, he has a very particular way of making movies and like looking at things. And so, yeah, it's um, it's just, yeah, it's just that it's just the difficulty.

• 41:59Josh Horowitz?

  It's wrapped up in other.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just got a lot of baggage.

• 42:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, and no Supergirl, no no lanterns, you're not watching any of them.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  No.

• 42:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I get it. I get it. Are you ever?

• 42:07Speaker 00

  I mean, it's it's memed all over my X feed, so.

• 42:11Josh Horowitz?

  You've seen it bits and pieces.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 42:14Josh Horowitz?

  Are we ever gonna see you like take on like the Excalibur kind of world, the Arthurian myth, which I know you hold so dear, you love that.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do love that film. Um, if you noticed in the movie last night, there's a lot of Excalibur references.

• 42:30Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  But um, yeah, I don't know, I I have something that I I like a property that I that I was working on that kind of goes into that a little bit.

• 42:40Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  So maybe.

• 42:41Josh Horowitz?

  Are there, I mean, like I mentioned, like Rebel Moon was there for a while. This has been out there for a while. Like, what's the one now? Like, is there another one that's been decades in the making that is still kind of percolating?

• 42:52Speaker 00

  Fountainhead. Fountainhead.

• 42:54Josh Horowitz?

  Still still on the list.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Fountainhead is absolutely on the list, yeah.

• 42:57Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really feel like it's a good time for Fountainhead. By the way, right, I wish I had Fountainhead ready to be released on the heels of this. What a. It would be a perfect.

• 43:06Josh Horowitz?

  You thought I was crazy.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I just feel like, you know, because I've written it as a twelve part. Like, I've written, I've written ten of the twelve episodes. They're all.

• 43:17Josh Horowitz?

  So it'll be a series.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  It's a series, it's like a limited series. I had the original script. I I've always been, you know, I'm I'm a, I'm a, like, you know, I'm an apologetic fan of Fountainhead, and I don't care. I like.

• 43:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  I saw Brad Pitt the other day say like, he is like, not a Fountainhead fan.

• 43:36Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, I didn't hear that.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I was like, bro.

• 43:40Josh Horowitz?

  You want to talk to him?

• 43:40Speaker 00

  He likes architecture. And like, I always said, like, any director, and I'm sure this is fine, it's like, whatever, it is what it is. But there's like, uh, you know, I just think that it's it's it's it's one of those things like, there's not a lot of books for architects out there, you know?

• 43:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Like, probably, you know, all the, all the, all the kids who love architecture, to re-Fountainhead are like, that's my, this is my thing.

• 44:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  And then they're told by like their teacher at in their liberal arts college that they're not allowed to like Fountainhead, so that they they have to put it aside. But then they secretly read it in the.

• 44:15Josh Horowitz?

  Have you?

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Quiet.

• 44:16Josh Horowitz?

  So how?

• 44:16Speaker 00

  But anyway, I so I've written, I've written the ten of the twelve.

• 44:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  And um, you know, I have like a whole, it it's just one of these things that I'm I I've. Now, I I started writing it in like twenty eighteen.

• 44:29Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  So not, it's not like a super.

• 44:31Josh Horowitz?

  No, but.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  It's it's not a super long time, but it's a lot, it's a, it's a, it's a lot of work, you know, to write it, to adapt it. Although what I was gonna say is I had, um, because like, you know, I'd always um, been sort of trying to develop it maybe as a movie.

• 44:44Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  You know, and then um, I

• 44:49Speaker 00

  I got a hold of Ayn Rand's original like script before they cut it down for the movie, but it's like three hundred and ten page script. You know, it's like a really.

• 44:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Dense script. So I used that script to help me edit the, whatever she kind of edited.

• 45:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Like, the storylines that she felt like.

• 45:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Weren't in the in the movie were, because I, it's not every single thing, you know, because it looks like seven hundred pages.

• 45:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  So there are a few edits I made, not crazy.

• 45:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  But um, and I use that as sort of the the way, the way through the the process.

• 45:23Josh Horowitz?

  So are you, is the idea to finish out the twelve scripts and then go out with it? Or are you like trying to like find a place?

• 45:28Speaker 00

  I don't know. I have some ideas on how to make it, so.

• 45:32Josh Horowitz?

  Not the iPhone for this one?

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Not the iPhone. Not the iPhone, I've talked to a lot of, there's a lot of, strangely, there's a lot of like very powerful, very wealthy people that like Fountainhead.

• 45:41Josh Horowitz?

  I'm sure.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  So um, you know, there's a, there's a.

• 45:46Josh Horowitz?

  There's some.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  There's some interest.

• 45:49Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Weirdly, like, you know, you, I took it around, you know, and um.

• 45:55Josh Horowitz?

  What was the reaction?

• 45:56Speaker 00

  It was, it was, it was interesting. I got, let me just say, I I sold it to two companies.

• 46:01Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  And then, for whatever reason, they came back to me like a week later and were like, oh, we can't do it. So I think they just, they just, they pulled it up the flagpole and and everyone was like, what? You're insane. We can't make Fountainhead. So I'm excited about that. That's a reason to make it right there, by the way.

• 46:21Josh Horowitz?

  I I get it. Um, is Brawler still on the docket?

• 46:24Speaker 00

  Brawler's, yes, I Brawler, um, I have, uh, uh, let's see, what else is, uh, what's the other thing? We talked about Blood and Ashes.

• 46:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  Um.

• 46:34Josh Horowitz?

  That's the three hundred.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  No, no, but yeah, that's the three hundred, the three hundred is skew.

• 46:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Three hundred.

• 46:41Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, that's what became.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  That's sort of beginning, yeah.

• 46:43Josh Horowitz?

  So could you still make that as the not three hundred?

• 46:45Speaker 00

  I couldn't make it, I could, I I own it outright.

• 46:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Courtney Valenti was my executive, like, and she's like, she was really like, she, she, she was um, very encouraging.

• 46:58Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Of this like homoerotic, um, very, very awesome, very beautiful love story, really, to be honest, let's be honest. So these guys conquered the world and it's incredible.

• 47:09Josh Horowitz?

  And so where is Brawler at now?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  And Brawler, well, I just, I'm, you know, the UFC is um, they've got like, you know, there's this new home at Paramount.

• 47:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  And I think that there's kind of like a, as that settles in, I think they're kind of across, you know, that, what that relationship's like. I mean, obviously, it's doing really well, but that it's a paramount, so that's great.

• 47:30Josh Horowitz?

  Where are you at? I mean, one of the hot blood initiatives, I'm sure you've been asked about this, what's your take on AI these days in terms of like as a tool, as a something to run away from?

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Well, you're gonna, obviously, like, the movie I just made has like, no, it barely has any visual effects.

• 47:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  So um.

• 47:44Josh Horowitz?

  I'm worried on that.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  It was very organic um, experience. Um, and I haven't really, um, you know, I look, you know,

• 47:56Speaker 00

  do I have Chat GPT on my phone? I do. And you know, like, I I think, um, is it like right now, how it's being, gonna be used in cinema in the future? Um, I just hope we're not making, you know, full CG or AI images that are being sold as like, you know? I think that like, once the humans are AI, I'm a little concerned. How's that?

• 48:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  That's my, that's my, I I know it feels simplified, but I think it's the most, I think the humans need to be human.

• 48:30Josh Horowitz?

  This is the wine and the sand, that seems.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  That, yeah. It feels like just.

• 48:34Josh Horowitz?

  Basic.

• 48:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:35Josh Horowitz?

  Are you?

• 48:36Speaker 00

  I know that it's gonna, it's it's gonna get muddy and gonna get um, it's gonna get, you know, because visual effects is such a slippery slope. Because visual effects, like, you know, traditional CG visual effects, and now AI visual effects are very, um, you know, the the line between those two things is like very, it's blurry and it's hard to put your finger on it. But you can always say the humans need to be human.

• 49:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  And that's like, I think that's, that's for me.

• 49:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  And I'm, I'm, look, there's a lot of other things, and the shots need to be the shots. Also, I don't need AI talent like making any shots, like they should not, AI should make no shots.

• 49:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Humans should make shots and humans should be in movies. That's kind of how it should be.

• 49:21Josh Horowitz?

  Are you in a good year in movies? I mean, the the rise of horror with the obsessions of the world.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 49:27Josh Horowitz?

  I'm sure you've seen Odyssey by now, your buddy Chris's film.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:30Josh Horowitz?

  These all inspiring for you as a as a filmmaker?

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:33Josh Horowitz?

  What do you inspire?

• 49:33Speaker 00

  I love, I like, I like people, I do think that one thing, and I I think in response to AI that you might find is that the, and I hope this is true.

• 49:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  This cinema becomes this sort of certified place to see actually handmade things, you know, like. I think there's, well, I I do believe there'll be a resurgence of handmade, you know, whether it be ceramics or, I don't, I don't know what, but just handmade objects will take a value that they may be lost over over time. And I think movies in that is the, in the same way, you know, movies made by people, for people, in a handmade way, I don't know visual effects or what's happening over here, but as long as it's presented by a person to other people.

• 50:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  And I think the movie theater itself will be the place where you can be.

• 50:23Josh Horowitz?

  The ultimate.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  You had some sort of stamp that allows you to believe that that that's true in there.

• 50:29Josh Horowitz?

  I I think it is like an inspiring thing right now. It seems like, I mean, I'm gonna sound like an old person, but like the like the fetishization for like younger, the younger generation right now around the movie theater experience of.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:38Josh Horowitz?

  Like the IMAX, the seventy mil, like the formats, like.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:42Josh Horowitz?

  The practical, it's really kind of cool to see.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  It's very cool. I I I like it because it really, it goes back to what I was saying about the handmade thing, you know, it's like, all those things are artisan.

• 50:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Artisan ingredients.

• 50:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  And I think the people can recognize that, you know, and and they want to.

• 50:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  You know, and I think it, it's cool.

• 51:00Josh Horowitz?

  All right, we're gonna end with this, I've done this with some filmmakers and actors that have amazing filmographies. I'm gonna put your films up against each other, you're gonna choose the best X sign or film of all time, bracket style.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Oof.

• 51:10Josh Horowitz?

  You ready?

• 51:11Speaker 00

  I guess.

• 51:13Josh Horowitz?

  All right, Dawn of the Dead versus Three Hundred, what do you choose?

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  I gotta go Three Hundred.

• 51:20Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 51:22Josh Horowitz?

  Now Steel versus BBS.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Those two, you really want to do that?

• 51:29Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Let's draw. Directors cut of course.

• 51:31Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously, yeah.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  BBS.

• 51:36Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Justice League versus Watchmen.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Fuck. That's rude.

• 51:43Josh Horowitz?

  You've done this to yourself.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  That's rude.

• 51:44Josh Horowitz?

  I know it is.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Justice League.

• 51:50Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Sucker Punch versus Rebel Moon.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  Directors got took horse.

• 51:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, always.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  I'm gonna say Rebel Moon.

• 51:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so now it's Rebel Moon versus Justice League.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Justice League.

• 52:05Josh Horowitz?

  And then it's Three Hundred versus BBS.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  BBS.

• 52:10Josh Horowitz?

  And now for all the marbles, BBS versus Justice League, the greatest Zax and I have filmed of all time, according to Zax.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna have to say Justice League.

• 52:18Josh Horowitz?

  All right.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:20Josh Horowitz?

  You gotta go with.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  The dream.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:23Josh Horowitz?

  The one that couldn't be stopped.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Watchmen could have snuck in there, but it's it's.

• 52:26Josh Horowitz?

  I didn't know what to do, I didn't know where.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it should have been Watchmen versus Justice League in the end.

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  We'll do that next time.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  That's fine.

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  Today, it's Justice League.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  Today it's Justice League, it is.

• 52:36Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Um, always a fun time chatting with you, especially like, this is like a moment in time we will always remember, I think.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  This is a moment in time, I'm I'm excited. The discourse continues.

• 52:46Josh Horowitz?

  The discourse always continues. Um, I know you'll find a great home for this one, congratulations on the last photograph.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 52:52Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and thanks to those for the time, man.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Cheers, brother.

• 52:54Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate you.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Have fun.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't. Should do this by Josh.

• 53:15Speaker 06

  It's the feeling of escapism, the call of glory that drives us to build fantastic worlds, yet some grow darker than others. Dark Dice is the improvised horror podcast diving into the depths of madness and the corrupt divine in the fantasy realm of terror. Wayward souls who dare risk their characters at our table bring our stories to crawling life. Enhanced with award-winning soundscapes and music, Dark Dice mixes the role of the dice with the drive to survive. So join us and hear the horrors of Dark Dice wherever you listen to podcasts.