All Day Every Day, Therapist, Mother, Maid; a History of Women’s Labour

A (brief) history of women's labour, from myth to etymology to the modern mess. Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Paris Paloma's song, Labour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvU4xWsN7-A. Theoi.com's entries on Nymphs https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Nymphai.html and Pandora https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html; and Perseus.tufts.edu, Logeion.uchicago.edu, etymonline.com and wiktionary.com for various Greek and English definitions, etymologies, etc. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So, check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids, to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 1:37Liv Albert?

  Zeus was always mindful of the trick of Prometheus, who had won for mankind the meat of the sacrificial beast, and would not give the power of unwearying fire to the melian race of mortal men who live on the earth. But Prometheus, the noble son of Iapetus, outwitted him and stole the far-seen gleam of unwearying fire in a hollow fennel stalk. And Zeus, who thunders on high, was stung in spirit, and his dear heart was angered when he saw amongst men the far-seen ray of fire. Forthwith he made an evil thing for men as the price of fire.

• 2:18Liv Albert?

  For the very famous limping god Hephaestus formed of earth the likeness of a shy maiden, Pandora, as Zeus, the son of Cronos, willed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athena girded and clothed her with silvery raiment, and down from her head she spread with her hands an embroidered veil, a wonder to see. And she, Pallas Athena, put about her head lovely garlands, flowers of new-grown herbs. Also she put upon her head a crown of gold with which Hephaestus, the very famous limping god, made himself and worked with his own hands as a favor to Zeus his father.

• 2:59Liv Albert?

  On it was much curious work, wonderful to see, for the many creatures which the land and sea rear up, he put most upon it, wonderful things, like living beings with voices, and great beauty shone out from it. But when he had made the beautiful evil to be the price of the blessing, he brought her out, delighting in the finery which the bright-eyed daughter of a mighty father had given her, to the place where the other gods and men were. And wonder took hold of the deathless gods and mortal men when they saw that which was sheer guile not to be withstood by men. For from her is the race of women and female kind, of her is the deadly race and tribe

• 3:44Liv Albert?

  of women who live amongst mortal men to their great trouble. No help meets in hateful poverty, but only in wealth. And as in thatched hives, bees feed the drones whose nature is to do mischief, by day and throughout the day, until the sun goes down, the bees are busy and lay the white combs, while the drones stay at home in the covered hives and reap the toil of others into their own bellies.

• 4:13Liv Albert?

  Even so Zeus, who thunders on high, made women to be an evil to mortal men with a nature to do evil. And he gave them a second evil, to be the price for the good they had. Whoever avoids marriage and the sorrows that women cause, and will not wed, reaches deadly old age without anyone to tend his years. And though he at least has no lack of livelihood while he lives, yet, when he is dead, his kinfolk divide his possessions among them. And as for the man who chooses the lot of marriage and takes a good wife suited to his mind, evil continually contends with good.

• 4:55Liv Albert?

  For whoever happens to have mischievous children lives always with unceasing grief in his spirit and heart within him, and this evil cannot be healed. So it is not possible to deceive or go beyond the will of Zeus, for not even the son of Iapetus, kindly Prometheus, escaped his heavy anger, but of necessity, strong bands confined him, although he knew many a while.

• 5:45Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello there, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, the woman with all the opinions and a script to write, Liv. So that passage I read at the top was from, you guessed it, Hesiod's Theogony. But this episode isn't about Pandora, not directly, at least. It might as well be, though, because this episode is about the history of women, mostly our labor, particularly women's labor when it comes to the actions and decisions of men.

• 6:27Liv Albert?

  The episode's title is, I hope you'll all recognize it, a lyric from the Paris Paloma song "Labor." If I could just recite those lyrics aloud to you all, right now, the whole thing, I would happily do so. Because it makes my point pretty well. But since that's not gonna happen, instead, I want to just talk about the role of women in the development of the male power structure. Mythologically, historically, and lots more. Specifically, I want to look at the question that is so regularly being posed to women of today.

• 7:02Liv Albert?

  What can women do to help the men of today? What can women do to solve the male loneliness epidemic?

• 7:11Liv Albert?

  But first, a quick reminder that I am running a group trip to Greek islands. This is the first trip to islands, uh, coming in October. We're going to escape Theseus, just like Ariadne, follow along in her footsteps as she escapes him in favor of the god of wine. We're gonna bask on the god of wine's stunning potato-fueled island, and no, they did not have potatoes back in the ancient world, but oh, does Naxos have them now? And I know it feels like a ridiculous time to be making travel plans, haha, but in the hopes that things will be vaguely less terrible come October, if any of you would like to join me in my favorite places in the whole world, you can learn more at the link in this episode's description. And even more excitingly, I can also tell you that you can now preorder my Odyssey retelling,

• 7:54Liv Albert?

  a thing that I am so proud of, I actually might scream. That, too, is available at the link in the episode's description. And guess what's coming on Friday? Guess what's coming on Friday? Oh, yeah, it's a conversation with Emily fucking Wilson. Hmm. 2026 may be terrible so far, but it's also going to be the year of the Odyssey, and fuck if that isn't, like, a little bit reassuring. Even if I have to look at Matt Damon's face. The least Odysseus Odysseus full-time.

• 8:35Liv Albert?

  All day, every day, therapist, mother, maid. A history of women's labor.

• 8:58Liv Albert?

  So this episode is, in part, a response to a question that I received from one of you beautiful listeners. And I say that first, because the question itself is well-intentioned. It's clearly coming from a place of love and concern, and I want to completely acknowledge that. Unfortunately, still, in me, these types of questions elicit silent screams of fury, and that's why I'm here to talk about it. So this comes from a listener named Stephanie, but again, I want to emphasize that I know this question is coming from a place of love and an attempt to understand really scary things that are happening, particularly if you have young men in your life. So while my response isn't technically an answer to this question, but instead kind of a deconstruction of it, I truly appreciate how it was asked

• 9:41Liv Albert?

  and why. I think this is something a lot of people are thinking about right now, and I just want to offer my personal response to it with historical and mythological backing through the lens of Greek myths, this history that has come before us. But first, the question. So it's a little long, but it is important and necessary, particularly the way that Stephanie laid it out and why I want to read the whole thing.

• 10:06Liv Albert?

  "Just listened to the Curtis Dozier and Josh Cannon episodes. Super interesting. Between the content, your outro, and the fact that I'm the only woman in a family full of middle-class white Australian men and boys who I love but don't always agree with, my ADHD feminist marketer brain immediately wandered off on a side quest, completely on brand." That's relatable. So, history has a habit of repeating itself. When large groups of usually young men feel shut out economically, socially, and politically, things turn to shit. That vacuum gets filled by whoever shows up with a neat explanation, ready-made brotherhood, and a convenient villain: women, ethnicities, people with disabilities, et cetera. We've seen it before. In the late Roman Republic, you had landless young men, huge wealth, inequality, corrupt

• 10:50Liv Albert?

  elites, and a general collapse in faith of civic life. Sound familiar? Caesar offers belonging status and a very compelling us-versus-them storyline. It worked. The Republic, not so much. Nazi Germany, French Revolution, Russian Revolution, Luddites, ISIS, and the Eureka Rebellion and Cronulla riots, Aussie examples, and thousands more examples. Fast forward to now, and it's the same story, just rebranded for the internet age. Far-right movements, extremist religious groups, online radical subcultures, and authoritarian campaigns are all using the same playbook. Sprinkle in some often accurate but selectively quoted ancient history and myth, and suddenly it all feels very scary. Meaningful work, civic voice, education that values non-academic strengths, promoting

• 11:33Liv Albert?

  positive masculinity, community, and a more nuanced view of history are what historically fixes the solution. But how does that work get amplified? How do we market that story better, at least in the history and classic space? How do we bring younger men and boys along for the ride? How do we make them feel part of the solution instead of a huge part of the problem? It is true, but humans naturally push back and become more extreme in their opinions when challenged. Do we need to borrow a few tricks from the other side to create real lasting change? And that's it. So again, thank you for this question, Stephanie, because I think it's going to give us a lot to think about. And you're completely right about the history and your analysis of it. This is something that's happened before, and it's almost certainly something that will happen again unless we all get nuked to hell.

• 12:18Liv Albert?

  And I do want to say that if there is anyone involved, you know, in this realm that is interested in addressing this, I would welcome it and I would happily platform it. But for me personally... This is a really great example of how we, and by that I mean Western society in general, are unfortunately asking the wrong questions. Because it's just so, so much bigger than this. Even, there's a little thing you said in there that I just want to push back on the tiny bit, which is the things that historically have solved the problem. Because they haven't historically solved the problem, right? They have quieted the problem briefly. Because this problem is 3,000 years old.

• 13:04Liv Albert?

  It's so, so much bigger than this modern individual problem.

• 13:10Liv Albert?

  And here's my thought on it. Women cannot solve this problem because it was built, completely constructed, on the core value that they do not believe that we are equal to them. The problem the Western world is facing right now is one of its own patriarchal construction. This is the patriarchal power structure in action. This is actually not a bug, but the results of what they built. The very predictable, unfortunately, results. The patriarchy built this despite women's actions over centuries. And where I'll return to that idea that the problem has been solved in the past. The problem has been quieted in the past.

• 13:55Liv Albert?

  It has never been solved.

• 13:58Liv Albert?

  The patriarchy built this despite women's attempts and actions for centuries. The men built this. They built it on top of us, on our bodies, on our backs. They built this and unfortunately, I think it has to be them that fix it. Which brings us to the episode of it all. Right back to the passage I read at the top of this episode. About the creation of Pandora. The very first mythological, first woman in, from Greek mythology.

• 14:34Liv Albert?

  From its infancy, the patriarchal power structure that emerged in places like ancient Greece was based in one inherent idea. Women are lesser. Women are created as, at worst, according to Hesiod, a punishment for men, and at best, as a thing for them to control and a means for their reproduction. Obviously, that's putting a super fine point on it. I am not talking about individual men. There is nuance here, like not all men and all that. But at the very core of our world's power structure, political structure, the very structure of its creation, the foundations of our culture,

• 15:17Liv Albert?

  is the idea that we are less than them. Men love to ask with utter confusion how women could ever choose a bear over a man. And they can't understand, because they lack one fundamental piece, what it's like to live in this patriarchal power structure as a non-man. And in this case, I use man as the power structure, which, as we all know, usually means white. But I am using them as the top of the power structure idea right now. I mean, I think there is an entire other episode to be made about the idea that I don't necessarily think that racial

• 16:00Liv Albert?

  power structures, like the racist power structures of the West, would exist in the same way if women had been equal from the start. I think that the patriarchal power structure in these individual places built first the idea that there was a class of people who could be controlled by another class of people. And then that led directly into racism, because they found other classes of people that they decided that they could control in that same way. And so that's all to say about what I mean right now.

• 16:32Liv Albert?

  So they fundamentally lack this understanding of what it's like to exist in that structure. A bear, for all its potential for violence, is predictable. We know what to fear from a bear. But men, there are so many ways that they've proven to hurt us in calculable ways. There's no unpredictability there, except for the prediction that something, anything, could and has happened. Hesiod's Theogony, the story of the creation of the Greek gods and their ruling class, is simultaneously evidence of a slow breakdown of feminine power, as I have looked at in other episodes. You know, the very first being to exist, Gaia, creates herself a companion, and instead she gets a jailer in Uranus, the god's first king.

• 17:16Liv Albert?

  And it happens over and over. Gaia's daughter, Rea, the next queen, is equally constrained and controlled by her so-called partner, Cronos. Then Hera, a queen but also a wife, put in her place by her husband so often that it's hard to keep count. It appears in smaller ways, too. The goddesses who aren't married always have masculine reasons for being unmarried. Athena doesn't marry because she's too concerned with being a smart warrior. Artemis doesn't marry because she's too concerned with being a strong hunter. And of course, they're always virgins. Apollo isn't married, but we would never call him a virgin, even if there was no evidence of his having sex.

• 17:54Liv Albert?

  It's only women, and girls, whose worth is determined based on what their bodies have or haven't experienced. Language itself becomes a means of controlling women. Hetairos, the masculine form of a noun, means comrade in arms or beloved companion. Hetaira, the feminine form of the very same noun, more often than not, means sex worker, prostitute. Not because the word is any different. She is, in fact, a companion in the same way that a man would be. But the language didn't develop that way. It developed alongside the culture and dominant power structure which turned women into objects to be possessed.

• 18:39Liv Albert?

  A woman simply cannot be a companion for the sake of it. She must be possessed in some way, either marriage or just sex.

• 18:50Liv Albert?

  Continuing with the ways that language is used as a means to control, the word nymph has, in recent years, become a bit of an obsession of mine. It's something that I started researching for the Medusa book, but couldn't fit it in. In the earliest forms of the ancient Greek language, at least those that survive for us today, the word nymph appears to have two meanings. Dictionaries love to present these as distinct definitions just coming from the same word. I think that's a little disingenuous. See, originally, in both Homer and Hesiod, the word nymphi appeared to apply to both nature goddesses, the same ones we imagine as nymphs, the nereids, oceanids,

• 19:35Liv Albert?

  and that same word, nymphi, applied also to young, marriageable women.

• 19:45Liv Albert?

  Again, dictionaries present this as two definitions, but I have yet to find a reasoning why that's a valid understanding. A nymphi was a young unmarried but very marriageable woman, girl, really. And nymph goddesses are, well, yes, they're goddesses, but they're goddesses who are, as presented as always, young, unmarried, and distinctly marriageable.

• 20:16Liv Albert?

  But in the case of these goddesses, marriageable means something a little different. It means they're desired by men, by gods. Most, if not all, stories that feature these particular types of goddesses as characters involve them as being, at best, seduced, and at worst, violently raped by gods. And as far as I can see it, that, that status of being marriageable, young unmarried, but marryable, that is what makes them a nymphi, in the same way that young girls and women were nymphi.

• 20:59Liv Albert?

  Now, I'm not suggesting that these goddesses didn't also serve the purposes that we are usually taught, right? These are goddesses of nature, they're wardens of nature, carers of the earth. They inspired the rivers and the streams and the plants and trees of the world. But they were also used as playthings and pawns by the male gods. And that, to me, is where this word "nymphie" is coming from. Driopie was a young woman who became a poplar tree nymph after she was raped by Apollo. Lotus was a young woman who became the lotus flower nymph after an attempted rape by Pan.

• 21:42Liv Albert?

  Daphne was a young woman who became the laurel tree nymph after an attempted rape by Apollo. Philora was a young woman who became the linden tree nymph after she was raped by Cronus. Pity became a pine tree after she ran and ran and escaped the god Pan who wanted to rape her. Serinx became the pan flute after she escaped the god Pan and the other satyrs. But it's not always about rape. No, Clytie became the sunflower after her lover, the god of the sun, for lack of a better term, ghosted her. Lovely. So this term "nymph," like, sure, it may be techni-- it may technically mean both young,

• 22:25Liv Albert?

  marriageable girl and young, marriageable goddess, but it will take a lot to convince me that these two terms are not etymologically identical. This idea that nymph goddesses are just nymphs because, like young women and girls, the purpose they served was the same. They were an object to be coveted, desired, defiled. That's why you're not hearing me use the word nymph very often. I like to use the specific categories, right? Oceanid does not have those connotations. Nereid does not have those connotations. Those words, you know, and there are similar words for, for the non-water-based characters.

• 23:06Liv Albert?

  Those words connect them to the natural world that we associate them with. But that word "nymph" does not do that. For all I can tell, it does not have associations with nature. It has associations with being a woman that a man could marry.

• 23:27Liv Albert?

  You can see it in the Latin etymology too, the ways in which language is used to control. Nymph as young woman bound for marriage eventually lends itself to the Latin word nubilis, which becomes the English word nubile. Originally, a word relating to, again, so-called marriageability. But now, oh, this word means now. Google's definition is this. "Of a young woman sexually attractive, he employed a procession of nubile young secretaries." Or, too, "of a young woman sexually mature, old enough for marriage."

• 24:12Liv Albert?

  At this point, I think every word that has such overtly sexual connotations, but which only applies to one gender, is an etymological red flag that now I must look into. Because why is it, after all, that terms like this only ever apply to women? Because from the very origins of Western civilization, women have not been understood as humans in the same way as men are humans, but instead as possessions to be controlled and owned. Imagine someone calling a man nubile. But don't worry. A millennia or so later, the men are going to make this shared terminology of nymph even more disturbing with their invention of early so-called psychology.

• 25:04Liv Albert?

  Nymphomania. This is the definition from Etymon Line, okay? "Morbid and uncontrollable sexual desire in women." 1775, in English translation of nymphomania or a dissertation concerning the Fuhrer uterinus by French doctor Jean Baptiste Louis de Fessac de Bienval. That was terrible. Just to put really fine point on it, let's break this word down, okay? Nymph, well, we've just learned what nymph means. You get it. Young, marriageable woman or girl. Or, of course, young, marriageable goddess. And then there's mania, right? Nymph, mania. Mania just is Greek for madness.

• 25:48Liv Albert?

  So where does the sexual aspect come in, huh? In this word? Nymph madness?

• 25:54Liv Albert?

  Good question. Just kidding. Isn't it obvious? The nymphs, the goddesses specifically. Oh, oh, by this point, by the 1700s, oh, they're seen as promiscuous. Yeah, yeah, those nymph goddesses. Yeah, no, they're promiscuous. They're slutty, not because we have evidence of them initiating sexual situations like almost ever. No, you heard the examples I just read. I can't think of a single story of a nymph who sought out sex. Sex was forced on those nymph goddesses. And then,

• 26:27Liv Albert?

  a couple thousand years later, some loser man decided to name hypersexuality in women after goddesses who were primarily raped by gods. Oh, oh, and you may be wondering, you may be wondering, is there a word that means the same thing, but only applies to men? Oh, of course, of course. Actually, there is. Yeah, great. But you've never heard of it. Because it's young women, girls who were constantly and perpetually sexualized against their will. Because the word, the word for the same psychological condition, oh, my God, I'm not, the word for the same psychological condition in men. Just wait for it. Okay, okay. It's called satiriosis.

• 27:05Liv Albert?

  You heard it, right? You heard it? The same condition in men was named after satyrs. Okay, so first glance, we're thinking, okay, cool. Well, at least the condition in men is, you know, similarly named after a mythological character type, right? Like, that's fine. Surely it can't add more misogyny to the already horrifying word nymphomaniac. Except while anyone who's been listening to me long enough knows one thing about satyrs. They are famous for sexually assaulting. Yeah, sexually assaulting, but actually, actually, sexually assaulting anyone, that's what they're famous for. But I would argue that they are actually, in fact, most famous for sexually assaulting nymphs.

• 27:48Liv Albert?

  So the male version of hypersexuality, so hypersexuality in men is named for rapist satyrs.

• 27:58Liv Albert?

  And hypersexuality in women, the female version of this exact same concept, okay? Hypersexuality in women? That's named after victims. The idea that women are hypersexual beings, that word is named after women who were all raped.

• 28:16Liv Albert?

  So, oh, also, though, let's just put, let's put a horrifying pedophilic cherry on top, okay? It was none other than Vladimir fucking Nabokov who coined "another" important term here, alright? Nimfet. Google defines nimfet as "a girl or young woman considered to be sexually attractive." So, once more, these words that are meant to describe young women only describes them in relation to men who would find them fuckable. And, of course, that word. Of course, that word was also coined in Nabokov's novel. You know the one.

• 29:01Liv Albert?

  If you don't, I'm about to tell you. Vladimir Nabokov wrote a very famous novel about a man having a criminal, pedophilic relationship with a young girl, his stepdaughter, if I'm not wrong? Lolita. For thousands, thousands of years, our society has been built on women's pain, persecution, and the lasting idea that we are inherently made to be controlled by men. Jeffrey Epstein named his plane the Lolita Express. It might as well have been called nimfet.

• 29:42Liv Albert?

  For thousands of years, whether intentionally or not, men and boys have been raised to control women and girls. And women and girls are raised to be controlled. And yet, despite the fact that even our own languages seek to control us, women have also spent the last few thousands of years being expected to clean up after men and the messes they make. Because what is control, really, if the person being controlled doesn't also keep things nice and tidy for the person controlling them?

• 30:36Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know the drill. Quince makes elevated, everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this braided leather, and I use it like basically every day. Because that's the thing, they have really great basics.

• 31:20Liv Albert?

  Like, they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen? You know, making things more affordable.

• 32:03Liv Albert?

  So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 33:38Liv Albert?

  So I was recently listening to an episode of Behind the Bastards about the rise of the incel movement, and their guest this week, who, heartbreak, was Kat Abghuzalay, who lost her primary in Chicago. Badass. Anyway, she was a guest on this. And she said this thing that I'll literally never forget. "Men are afraid of being mocked. Women are afraid of being murdered."

• 34:06Liv Albert?

  Just sit with that one, because it is spot on. And the good men, who I know are listening, I know you're here, so thank you. And please, like, take this to heart. Okay, so I wrote the majority of this script up to this point, prior to watching Louis Theroux's new documentary, Inside the Manosphere. Conveniently, though, I then, I watched it before writing this end bit, and I'm so glad I did.

• 34:32Liv Albert?

  The men of ancient Rome, Ovid specifically, invented pick-up artistry. They invented the idea that women are creatures to be tricked, played, and conned into being with men. And as I say that out loud, I mean Zeus really invented that idea, let's be honest. Before Rome, Greece ensured that women knew their place. They were possessions to be controlled and used. I know, it sounds dark. It sounds dark. And I don't mean it to seem quite so like, cut and dry, but the facts remain true. The myths that survive for us to tell the story, they tell the story very clearly. These women and girls were raised with the understanding that at any time, a man might come to hurt them, rape them, something else equally horrifying, and that their lives would be ruined by it. They were raised with stories where those very things happened, not only to mortal women just like them, but to goddesses too.

• 35:16Liv Albert?

  How, as a mortal woman in ancient Greece, how are they supposed to feel like this? How are they supposed to live like that? People love to say like, "Oh, well, it was just the way it was back then. It's not that deep." But imagine. Just imagine. I mean, I suppose, actually, I barely have to imagine what that might feel like because I was raised in such a similar world because in 2,500, 3,000 years, things haven't changed. As a millennial child, I grew up in the world that taught girls and women that in order to be valuable, we had to be small, skinny, white, blonde, and best yet, we had to look young enough to appeal to men who have been raised to be attracted to far, far too young women. Girls. The Epstein files basically proved it, right? This world was based, it was built to turn women into childlike creatures for men's amusement.

• 36:01Liv Albert?

  For fuck's sake, the man who started Victoria's Secret, among so many other ridiculously influential North American brands, was best buds with Epstein. Oh, the pictures they're in together, ooh, wowza! You know, the most famous child predator of our lifetime.

• 36:18Liv Albert?

  We have 3,000 years of patriarchal history, and yet up until barely 100 years ago, women were not considered part of democracy. This so-called "rule of the people" that we are told is the best and only way that countries should be permitted to exist. We were not included until 100 years ago.

• 36:39Liv Albert?

  But it's the best and most equal way for cultures to exist.

• 36:46Liv Albert?

  In 3,000 years of patriarchal history, it's been barely 50 years since women were allowed to have the same banking access as men. In 3,000 years of history, women have had barely 100 years of, ah, the closest we've ever gotten to equality without ever actually reaching anything close to equality. Women have only been considered people with the same rights and abilities as men for 100 years, if that. And not for lack of trying. We've been trying. Ah, but because the Western world's power structure has sought to intentionally keep

• 37:27Liv Albert?

  us controlled and controllable, our efforts have, I mean, the ones we have achieved and good for us, those have taken 3,000 years of patriarchal history before we could even get voting in a so-called democracy. Or banking information, like, women weren't allowed to vote because it could have given us more access to rights and freedoms from men. Women weren't allowed to have credit cards because it would give us access to financial freedom from men. Women's clothes tend to have smaller pockets, if any pockets at all. Do you think that's aesthetic? Nope. It's so that we have less freedom, less places to keep money and identification, less means of running away.

• 38:11Liv Albert?

  Without pockets, though, women, of course, started carrying handbags. So naturally, carrying handbags became seen as feminine and therefore lesser. Ah, you girls and your bags, what do you keep in there? Freedom from you. Women traditionally were expected to wear dresses. Why? It's harder to run. It's harder to free yourself from oppression. Like, everything, and I mean everything, has been designed to keep us in our place for 3,000 years. And again, I don't say this to be negative or nihilistic or even a misandrist, which I'm not against calling myself. This is simply evidence for the ongoing issues, the 3,000 years of oppression compared to not even 100 years of vaguely, slim thing, like, slightly closer to equality.

• 38:56Liv Albert?

  Because it's not irrelevant here. Women, our very existence in Western culture has been shaped by men, whether we like it or not. And that is horribly, like tragically relevant when it comes to this issue of modern young men, their overall discontentedness, disillusionment, and their misogyny. These historical facts and cultural connections are simply realistic. Because here's the problem with this question, this larger question that so many women are asking themselves right now. This question of how we can help with the so-called male loneliness

• 39:36Liv Albert?

  epidemic, or the issues with young men falling down the red pill pipeline à la manosphere. But it's an impossible question, not because women don't want to help. Actually, I think it's probably way more ornately within us to help. It's certainly not because we don't want to live in a better, freer world without this, this severe, severe misogyny. It is unfortunately impossible, because the male power structure, the patriarchy, has spent 3,000 years convincing all the other men, and again, not all men, whatever, if you're here and you're listening to me and you believe me, then you're one of the good ones, it's fine. But the patriarchy

• 40:16Liv Albert?

  has spent 3,000 years convincing men that they should not listen to or value the opinions of women, that they always must know more than us, or be more successful than us, because that's what it takes to be a man. The problem is the patriarchy built themselves into the prison walls that they built around us. The majority of men are now being harmed by the patriarchal power structure. They are being convinced of things that aren't real, and instead are pushing these men, these boys, farther and farther into this toxic realm.

• 40:58Liv Albert?

  And again, I don't mean this to be negative. I want it to be realistic. And mostly this episode is for the men, because I don't believe women can fix this. Or certainly, I don't believe women alone can fix this, no matter how much we may want to, or how much others' mothering instincts are screaming at them to help. Because the patriarchy built this. They built this world where the labor of women is not only unrecognized, but actively devalued and ignored. We cannot help them if they won't help themselves first. This is why a documentary like The New Louis Theroux: Inside the Manosphere on Netflix is important. Not because so many of us haven't been aware of this for ages,

• 41:41Liv Albert?

  but because the people who need to be aware of this are not the ones who have been paying attention. Women have been paying attention because it affects us. But what good does that do when this manosphere of influencers spend all of their time insulting women, seeking to own and use them, and actively discussing their lack of value to men? Men must take the lead here. There need to be more documentaries, more articles, more books, more things, and just everything about this written and created by men. Because women have been talking about this. Hell, Mark fucking Zuckerberg's sister wrote about this, and not only the dangers of the manosphere and the patriarchy,

• 42:26Liv Albert?

  but specifically how they are linked to ancient Greece and Rome. She wrote that in 2018.

• 42:34Liv Albert?

  Donna Zuckerberg, here I was just shitting on her brother, but Donna Zuckerberg is great, to be clear. I think she seems really cool and her work is awesome. This is not new. What's new is the good men of the world actually learning about it, and amazing. I'm so glad to have you here, because this job is for men, more than any other job. This, this I might think, is the only job in the world that can only be done by men, despite what they've convinced themselves. I think, truly, I think we could do basically any job on this planet very well.

• 43:10Liv Albert?

  But unfortunately, I think that it is only men who have been so wronged by this patriarchy and convinced of something that was never going to come to them. It is those men who have to tear apart this patriarchy that built them into this wall, brick by brick. Because if we're honest, women would probably be better at solving this problem if our solutions were actually considered viable by the men we're seeking to help. But, and to kind of quote Paris Paloma again, how can we help drowning men who keep gulping down more salt water? Because again, I know I named this episode for Paris Paloma's song "Labor," but you should

• 43:55Liv Albert?

  also all go listen to her song "Good Boy" because it's this. It's about this epidemic of men not being lonely, but being lied to. And sure, they're lonely because of those lies, but it's not inherent. It's about watching this from the outside, seeing all the ways these men are being lied to, but being unable to make them see it. Because in order to understand something a woman tells them, these particular types of men would first have to believe women were worthy of telling them anything. So, I don't know how to fix this problem, and if I'm honest, I am not interested in trying to figure it out. Men built this.

• 44:37Liv Albert?

  They built this thing that oppresses all of us, but women most of all, women of color, of course, most, most, most of all. And until they're willing to listen to the voices of women, then it should be, it actually must be, the responsibility of men to fix this. I have spent 37 years of my life slowly learning all of the ways that women, non-binary people, and most non-white men have been hurt, oppressed, utterly destroyed by the dominant male power structure. I have watched as most of the men in my life reveal themselves for what they really are, men raised as men in this world of male power structure, and therefore men I don't need to associate with. But truly, I know there are so many good men who listen to my show specifically.

• 45:21Liv Albert?

  You all, you prove that to me time and time again. Quite frankly, some of the men who listen to my show and clearly, truly hear me and the struggles of women everywhere, you are who we need. You keep me from becoming the most egregious misandrist in the world, and if it weren't for you, I don't know. So truly, truly, men who are listening, like, hear me now more than ever. And please, step up and speak to the other men in your life, especially young men. Call them on their shit. Call out the misogyny. Call out pickup artist culture. Call out the manosphere. Explain how this harms you all too. That all of this harms men.

• 46:07Liv Albert?

  Not just as much, I'm not gonna say that, but fuck if it doesn't harm you all real bad. So take this on, because without you, we're not going to get anywhere. The, the manosphere, men's rights movements, incel movements, tox- toxic masculinity, and of course, this so-called male loneliness epidemic. These are all issues that were built by men to oppress other men under the guise of oppressing women. Patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurts men nearly, nearly as much as it hurts women, but it is a problem that can only be realistically and permanently fixed by those men. And again, I say permanently, because right back up to the top of this episode in that question.

• 46:49Liv Albert?

  These problems have been, there have been Band-Aids put all over them. Plasters put over them.

• 46:58Liv Albert?

  But they were never fixed. Because it absolutely has to be men who break down the dominant male power structure. Particularly, who break down the, the strength of the misogyny that has been constructed in the year 2026. They built this system that was designed over 3,000 years to keep all of us in a small, controllable box. We can try, we women, we could try, and I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't. But the only way to get real, permanent, lasting change is for the men themselves to change.

• 47:59Liv Albert?

  Well nerds, I promise I will have a script soon that isn't just me screaming. Ugh, I will. Um, but with the way things are right now, I just, I really, it was really important to me that I talked about this because it is such an important question and it's one that so many people are being asked right now and it is, like, it is an important question. But from this perspective of seeing the 3,000 years of history, I just do not see a way where, where women primarily could make this change purely because of exactly the box that they have constructed, right? They boxed us out. They kept us

• 48:44Liv Albert?

  from being able to fix this by making it so that our opinions and our advice, everything that comes out of women to those particular types of men is invalid.

• 48:57Liv Albert?

  And I just, again, I'm not trying to be negative in any way, like, I mean, everything is hard to not be negative, but like, in, in terms of this, I want to see the men fix it and I think there are a lot of men who are willing and able to do so. It's just unfortunately, every time we see these questions about how to help this, the questions are aimed at women. And that's because historically, while we do not have the power, we are historically the ones expected to do the labor to help the men. And I'm not against women who are interested in doing that, but I am not. I am not interested in continuing to participate in the labor expected of women

• 49:39Liv Albert?

  that only benefits men when those very same men have absolutely no interest in things that benefit women.

• 49:48Liv Albert?

  And maybe that's because I'm lucky enough to not really have any men in my life, except for some listeners and a handful of friends and my dad who's pretty chill. Like, honestly, like, you know, it's just, I think, I think it's too far gone. We've been trying to fix this. Women have been talking about this. Like, it's been 10 years since I first heard the word incel. 10 years. We've been trying to fix this and it's, they're not listening to us because that is, that is what they've built. So I just, yeah, the more productive use of our time, I think, is getting men to fix this because we can keep trying and I just, they've done too much

• 50:33Liv Albert?

  damage to our ability to help them. This is a mess they made and they've got to pull themselves out of it. And tragically, their fucking mess hurts all of us and that is infuriating and it of course makes us want to help. And like, again, ideas welcome, but I am personally not interested in doing labor for men until they prove that they are willing to do literally any labor for us. And I think maybe next week we'll do like a play or something. Do you have any ideas? Send, send them my way. I would, I would like to be inspired for something that doesn't immediately make me just immediately think of all of the ways that the world has been stacked against us. Like, I just don't want to think that way all the time, but like,

• 51:18Liv Albert?

  it just keeps pattern recognition and all that, you know, you know? So give me some examples. I would love, I'm really, we're gonna get there. I'm excited to be writing scripts again and I, I promise, they'll be fun soon. But in the meantime, this is important shit. And I think that understanding the history and just the how we got here is vital in order to understand ways in which things could be fixed. You know, we have to understand where, how we got here. Because I think ignoring how we got here is the, the only way to ensure that nothing ever changes.

• 51:57Liv Albert?

  So, let's talk about Myth Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Panglish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. Select music is by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. We are bringing you new and fun things. Have you listened to the new show yet? Ancient History 101? Thrilling stuff. Or maybe the Partial Historians, those two amazing Aussie doctors, bringing us Ancient Rome? Or perhaps Movies We Dig, bringing you fun and relevant and

• 52:29Liv Albert?

  historically sound commentary on reception of all types and shapes? Alright, we'll name more next time. Uh, thank you all so much for listening. Learn more about, uh, the show, Memory Collective, or all of our other podcasts, uh, at, uh, collectivemem.com, maybe, or my own website, mythsbaby.com? I dunno, whatever you want. Do you want this episode, or other ones, ad-free? You can sign up to the Oracle Edition on Patreon and get ad-free episodes. Um, and so much more. And... I dunno, I think I'm just gonna go back to reading men written by women. Because I like them. They seem nice. Real men, take note.

• 53:13Liv Albert?

  I am Liv, and I love this shit. Um, except for the dominant Western patriarchal power structure. That I'd like to see burn.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time. Or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids, to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens. Each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together, or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.