182. Michael Easter: The Hidden Health Cost of Modern Comfort

A lot of people do not need to be convinced that the stairs are better than the escalator, walking is better than sitting all day, and reaching for the phone every quiet second is probably not helping their focus. The harder question is why the easier option still wins so often, even when someone cares about their health. This episode starts there, with the strange gap between what we know is good for us and what modern life quietly trains us to choose. In this episode of Extend, I sat down with Michael Easter to look at the hidden cost of a life designed around ease. The conversation asks what happens when discomfort, movement, boredom, load, scarcity, and friction are removed from daily life, and why putting some of those inputs back may change the way we think about resilience, behavior, and long-term health. Michael Easter is the author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain, and the creator of the Two Percent newsletter and podcast. His work sits at the intersection of science, human behavior, fitness, and real-world experience, making him the right person to explain why the modern world can pull us away from the very things that help the body and brain stay adaptable. What's Discussed: (8:12) The striking gap between how much humans move today versus how much we evolved to move and what that gap is quietly doing to our health. (9:42) The one statistic that explains why most people consistently choose the thing they know is worse for them even when the better option is right in front of them. (11:41) The exercise that humans are uniquely built to do, that has almost completely disappeared from modern life and why bringing it back changes everything. (21:52) The specific treadmill protocol Michael uses that builds endurance and strength simultaneously without the injury risk most people associate with cardio. (32:11) Why solitude and loneliness are not the same thing and what the research actually shows about what happens when you learn to be alone with yourself. (38:14) The three-part psychological loop behind slot machines that was deliberately engineered into the technology most people use every single day. (50:46) What a study on one of the most unlikely populations in America revealed about why movement and community can offset almost everything else we get wrong about health. Listen to this episode of Extend to understand why the healthier choice is not always a knowledge problem, why comfort can quietly shape behavior, and how the right kind of friction may help your body and mind become more resilient over time. Thank You to Our Sponsors: Momentous: Head to livemomentous.com/fiber and use code DRSHAH for up to 35% off your first order. Next Health Summit: Head to next-health.com/summit http://next-health.com/summit to secure your spot at the first ever Next Health Longevity Summit in Nashville on 9/12. Learn More About Dr. Darshan Shah: Website: drshah.com http://drshah.com Clinic: next-health.com http://next-health.com Instagram: darshanshahmd https://www.instagram.com/darshanshahmd/ Learn More About Michael Easter: Website: TWOPCT.com https://www.twopct.com/ Substack: Two Percent with Michael Easter https://substack.com/@michaeleaster Book: The Comfort Crisis https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/634446/the-comfort-crisis-by-michael-easter/ Book: Scarcity Brain https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705376/scarcity-brain-by-michael-easter/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Before we get started with this episode, I'd like to invite all of you to the first ever Next Health Longevity Summit, happening in Nashville, Tennessee, at the Conrad Hotel on Saturday, September 12, 2026. This is an all-day summit where you're going to be hearing from some of the best speakers in longevity's medicine, including Dr. Vonda Wright, Dr. Luisa Nicola, many of the podcast guests that you've heard here on the Extend Podcast, and of course, I'm going to be there, curating the entire day. We also have incredible vendors coming, so you can try the latest technologies in health, wellness, and longevity. Go to next-health.com/summit and buy your ticket today. We only have 400 spots and

• 0:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  they're going quickly. That's next-health.com/summit. I look forward to seeing you all there. Welcome to Extend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah, a podcast dedicated to cutting-edge science, research, tools, and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21, and trained and board-certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board-certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results when it comes to your health span. We are living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system, no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview

• 1:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  world-renowned experts, offering you a step-by-step guide to proactively avoid disease, and most importantly, extend your health span. Today, we're joined by Michael Easter, a phenomenal writer, former professor, and the author of The Comfort Crisis. Michael shares his unique journey from magazine journalism at Scientific American in Men's Health, to becoming a leading voice on human resilience and the benefits of embracing discomfort. We're going to dive into how our modern, comfortable lives might be working against our evolutionary biology, and explore practical ways to reintroduce beneficial challenges like rucking into our daily routines. Michael's insights are

• 2:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  not just theoretical, they're actionable strategies for a healthier, more fulfilling life, and I'm excited for you to hear them.

• 2:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Michael, thanks for driving out here to see me.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks for having me, man. I'm glad to be here.

• 2:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  This is great. I've been looking forward to this for a while. I've been reading your Substack and it informs a lot of the advice I give to my patients here. So

• 2:31Speaker 01

  I love hearing that.

• 2:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, no, it's just really been, really been incredible that someone can take the science out there and make it actionable. And I love that. I love, I love how you, how you do that in a way that makes it really also digestible. So thank you for that.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. I try. I put a lot of work into it. So it's good to hear that, you know, you're using it with patients every day. That's awesome.

• 2:51Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I love like how you focus on certain themes like resilience, how you focus on, I wouldn't talk about all of these themes today, if you don't mind, because I think that they're very important to touch on. But I'd just like to start off with, how'd you get into this?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  How did I get into this? Oh, man. You know, when I was in college, well, to back up, I was just a book junkie when I was a kid, really into nonfiction, outdoor books. In college, I was like, no one can actually be a writer, though. Like, that's not a real job. You live in your mom's basement, you work some random job, and then you just say, oh, yeah, I'm a writer. But I ended up, I was gonna do a different sort of course in, in life. And then I took this nonfiction writing class my senior year and I was like, I'm gonna give this a try. Even if it fails, at least I gave it a try. So, long story short, I started working in magazines. So I had worked at Scientific American and then GQ and Esquire. So I kind

• 3:46Speaker 01

  of had the science magazine, the men's magazines, and then I ended up at Men's Health. So it was kind of a mix of those two.

• 3:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You're an editor there, you're telling me?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yep, I was a writer and editor. I was kind of the guide that they would send to find interesting people doing interesting things in interesting places. That was kind of my shtick. Yeah, send them in to hang out with these, you know, powerlifters who have, you know, shaved heads and they're 300 pounds. And so I was there for about seven years. Then I ended up taking a job as a professor at UNLV. And while I was there, because I was in the journalism department, half my job was the writing, half was the teaching. So started writing books, because I always just love like the not, the long sort of narrative. Can I tell someone a story, but then weave in information they can use in their life?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  So yeah, and then a few years ago, I stopped doing the professor thing full time. And now I'm just writing and.

• 4:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, so you don't teach anymore at LV?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  No, occasionally teach one class a year. There was a couple of classes that I created that were kind of my babies and I was kind of the only one in the apartment who can teach them. So I'll still sometimes pop in and teach those. But also, you know, it's good to interact with younger people and.

• 4:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love it.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  It's really great to see students have things click.

• 5:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  And then they end up getting a really cool job because of it, so.

• 5:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I know. No, that's really great. And your in-depth analysis of the science, probably some of that came from like Scientific American, which is one of my favorite. I mean, I, you know, like in this digital world, most people don't subscribe to a lot of magazines anymore. Like you can get all the magazines you want on like Apple News, but I love holding the magazine. And so Scientific American is one of them. I still get it in the mail.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's the, it's the experience and there's, you have an understanding just visually what's important and what's not. You get to the front of the magazine, it's the smaller stuff. You go, okay, this isn't quite as like big and in-depth, but it matters. You get to the middle of the magazine, it's like, okay, we got more length. And then at the end, you're like, now we're going really in-depth. I don't think the internet has those cues that help people find that. So I'm, I'm still a magazine guy too.

• 5:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. What, what do you subscribe to?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  I like New Scientist. I will do, sometimes I'll do The New Yorker. I also subscribe to New York Times Sunday.

• 6:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  I just go through that entire thing and I'll usually find really interesting stuff that I'm not expecting. So, yeah.

• 6:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. New Scientist is another one of my favorites and then Popular Mechanics is my other one.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. I'm just so well-written and topics like you would never even think about thinking about like quantum, quantum physics and how it relates to, you know, consciousness. And I just, I just love it. I geek out on that.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Great.

• 6:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Amazing. So your first book, let's talk about that one.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What prompted you to write it?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  So it was kind of a long story. I'll give you the whole, the whole details.

• 6:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, please. Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  So part of it was I ended up getting sober when I was in my mid twenties. And I realized my drinking when I was trying to quit, so I come from a long line of hellions. All my family is, I sort of had this moment where I was, I knew I had a drinking problem. Just trying to quit, but I was always looking for the easy way out. I'm like, how can I fix this in a simple way?

• 6:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Never worked, right? And only until I sort of had this moment where I go, oh, this is actually going to be uncomfortable. To change this habit, it's going to be really hard.

• 7:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So I leaned into that. And it was really uncomfortable, but only in the short term. And then afterwards, my life starts improving like across the board, like everything in my life got better. And that happened when I was at Men's Health Magazine. And I sort of had this observation, oh, like everything we write about in this magazine has the same exact trajectory. That in order to improve your life in the long run, you often have to do things that are uncomfortable in the short term. So exercise is the sort of classic example. Exercise is hard when you do it.

• 7:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone really loves exercise. I think the people who say that have just deluded themselves into thinking that.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  But that's like one of the best levers you can pull for your health. Right, for your long-term health. But you can also apply it to losing weight and having to change your eating habits. Probably most of what you do with your patients, like the lifestyle stuff, it's going to be uncomfortable in the short term, but you get this long-term benefit.

• 8:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  So I made that observation and then that just became starting to look at, okay, well, if kind of going through this short-term discomfort improves this in the long run, and then pulling back and going, well, wait a minute. Like we've designed the world in the last hundred, hundred and fifty years to be so comfortable in every way. Right, we walk four thousand steps on average today. Well, for all of time, humans walked about twenty thousand steps on average.

• 8:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And we were carrying stuff, there was rarely enough food, we had to go out and work for it. Getting from point A to point B, you had to walk, we were outside, a hundred percent of our lives, we were in tight communities, all these different things. And that's really just been woven out of our lives and supplanted with comfort, just across the board. And so the book was really a question of, okay, well, what has that done to us? What are some of the most important discomforts that we've taken out of our lives? And what can putting them back into our lives do for us?

• 9:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  And so the book just is a big investigation of that.

• 9:04Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, and it's fantastic how you bring the evolutionary biology of this up as well, because these comforts have only existed for maybe a hundred years, right?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It takes thousands and thousands of years for our genes to evolve past that. So we're really living in opposite to what we are evolved to live with, right? And so like our caveman ancestors, I always say, walked around all day long looking for food. And, you know, recreating some of those discomforts in our life can be a massive benefit to our health, because it's like the way our genes want to be turned on and turned off.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 9:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. And so, go ahead.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I mean, I think that so many of the chronic diseases we have today, they wouldn't exist if we were to still continue to do a lot of the things that we did in the past in the modern environment.

• 9:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  So then the question is like, okay, well, why don't we do those things? So the newsletter and my podcast are called 2%.

• 10:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  2%, right.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And so this comes from a study that found that 2% of people take the stairs when there's also an escalator available.

• 10:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow. Number one, I did not know that that's where that came from, because I thought you were talking about making 2% improvements, but it's about 2% of people take the escalator.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  2% of people take the stairs when there's also an escalator available.

• 10:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  So my argument is that 100% of people know taking the stairs is going to be better for them.

• 10:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  And yet, 98% of people choose to do this easier effortless thing that could actually harm them in the long run, given how little we move today. And so why is that? Well, it's because we are really wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing. For all of time, that was a survival lever to pull, right? You didn't want to, you didn't want to move any more than you had to, because there was never enough food.

• 10:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  You don't want to do these uncomfortable things, because that would have put your life at risk. That's, that helped us. For all the time. And then very recently, we engineered our world where we can do the next easiest, most comfortable thing. And so those that drive instinct, whatever you want to call it, it really just backfires on us and leads us into a lot of problems.

• 11:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah. The sedentary time that we spend day over day just adds so much chronic disease and all cause mortality to our life. And so, you know, a lot of the things that you talk about in your book and also in your Substack is that what are some of those uncomfortable things that people can do in order to kind of negate the negative effects of being comfortable all day long, right? And so I'd love to like dive into some of those with you if you found the most helpful. What would you say like your top three most helpful uncomfortable things that people can do as far as exercise goes? That can really move the needle for them.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  As far as exercise goes, one thing that I point out in the comfort crisis that is kind of, I would say is caught on is carrying weight, specifically rucking. Rucking is the most approachable way to carry that. So why is that important? Well, when you look at the human body, we're uniquely good at two things compared to other mammals. We're good at covering long distances. So we're uniquely adapted to endurance. And we're also unique in that we can carry weight for distance. We can carry weight while doing that, right? There's no other animal that can just like pick up something and then walk with it for distance. And that really shaped us as a species. It allowed us to basically take over the world. We could take gear into the unknown, carry our kids so they're safer, on and on.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  And we've really removed that from modern life. And it's like you can push your kid in a stroller. You can have wheeled luggage. If you need to move something, you just put it in the car and drive it. But when you look at what happens when people carry weight, well, you're kind of getting two things. You're getting an endurance stimulus because you're walking. And you're also getting strength stimulus because you have load on your skeletal system. Now, again, the most, I would say the most approachable way into this is via rucking, which is putting some weight in the backpack, throwing it on your back and going for a long walk.

• 13:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's one that I think has been, you know, I wrote that, it's interesting because in the comfort crisis, as I mentioned before, I like to have, I like my work to have a narrative behind it, a through line. So to report that book, I spent a month in the Arctic on this backcountry hunt. And I had that realization about how we're unique and that we can carry weight because we had to pack an animal back from camp.

• 13:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  We had successfully hunted this caribou and now it's like, all right, now you gotta get it back to camp. So you know, put the weight on your back. It's super.

• 13:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  How many pounds that that's heavy?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  It was a lot. More than a hundred.

• 13:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  More than a hundred.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably if I had to put a number on it, it's probably one twenty.

• 13:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Very heavy and the tundra is a nightmare to walk on.

• 13:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, my gosh, I can't even imagine.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Was it just you? No, you were with other people?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I was with two other guys. So they had about the same amount in their packs. Yeah, they're big animals. Um, forgot where I was going with that.

• 14:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, you were saying how the narrative through your book was was about carrying

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  heavy things, right?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, so that where I came to that idea about carrying is the reason that we are so good at endurance is a is is a hunting context. So humans in the past would do this thing called persistence hunting where they would slowly run down animals in the heat. We're really good at cooling ourselves. We're not covered in fur.

• 14:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  So we don't overheat on hot days, but most other mammals in the heat of the day, they're gonna overheat if they run too far. So we just basically run animals down. We would hunt them. So you got the endurance there. And then once you successfully hunt it, now you gotta carry it back.

• 14:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You gotta carry it back.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  So I was I was familiar with this research on endurance and persistence hunting and how that really shaped our bodies. But then it was the, oh, well, wait a minute. If you get the animal, you gotta carry it back. And I'm just walking on the tundra with the soul crushing load going. I don't think there's any other animals that can just carry carry weight. And that then led to the the chapter about that and how the most approachable way to do that is rucking.

• 15:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, it just kind of took off as a social phenomenon.

• 15:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah, it's massive social phenomenon now. Like you have entire companies that are just making ruck sacks. I have a go ruck. Awesome. Myself, I started off rucking with just a backpack and putting. You know, like weight in the back, like bags of like flour, actually is what it is.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 15:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  But what do you use for rucksack?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  So I actually am part of a company that is just launching. We just launched about a month ago. Called Walkfully.

• 15:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And so we make hip packs that are weighted.

• 15:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  So like a fanny pack, makes it sound dorky. They're actually beautiful. Um, and then we're gonna, we have soon coming out weight vests as well as packs.

• 15:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  So and I, I started it with a guy named Christopher Gavigan.

• 16:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  He is, he founded the Honest Company.

• 16:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  So he's got, he's just got a great eye and great taste. Like they brought me in for the science and he's the business guy and also ah, that's good. Like here's how our design's gonna look. So.

• 16:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, okay. Very cool. And why the fanny pack type of device? Is that a better distribution of weight?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a different distribution.

• 16:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Different distribution.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's different benefits to each. The hip pack is gonna be a little bit lighter.

• 16:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  So it goes up to sixteen pounds if you wanted to. You can add and remove weights. Also, it looks a little more normal in public and that's a big thing. The weight vest, sometimes people are like, what, what is this person wearing? And you can wear it for a longer duration.

• 16:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Got it.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  So there's some evidence to suggest having load on your skeletal system in the form of a weight vest or whatever it might be. Getting in long durations of time seems to give unique benefits.

• 16:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And would you wear that with a backpack as well or just on itself or both?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  I would just wear it on its own. You could definitely do both though.

• 17:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, okay.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And some backpacks will have hip belts.

• 17:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  They do, yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Which allows you to distribute some of that to the hips.

• 17:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  So part of what we're trying to do is, um, the term, the term rucking came out of the military. So when the average person Googles rucking.

• 17:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  They'll see special forces soldiers doing crazy things. Like when I told my mom about it, all the benefits, because it's especially, I think, good for women and aging populations. So she Googles it, just like.

• 17:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Michael, I'm not doing this. Who are these like soldiers? No way.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And so part of it is trying to shift it more into letting people know it's very approachable thing to do. And offering people different implements that they'll feel comfortable with that are the appropriate loads and.

• 17:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And so I'm glad you mentioned this because I think this is an absolutely critical part of the health routine of anyone that is, you know, forty five, fifty plus. And the reason is because number one is the load and your skeletal system needs load in order to stay strong. I think one of the one of the biggest problems with osteoporosis is obviously like hormonal decline, but also there's like no load on our skeleton as humans right now anymore.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And it's that load that creates the strength of your bones through stimulating osteoblastic activity.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And without load, like I, you know, Vonda, right? She's a, she's a friend of mine and she talks a lot about jumping in her book Unbreakable. And I think that creates that intense load every once in a while, but I find rucking is like one of the only times that you have any load on your skeleton anymore.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's some, I mean, there's studies go back and forth. Some studies will say, oh, rucking doesn't seem to improve bone density. Some says it does, but that's like with everything in bone density. Bone density is one of those wacky things where it's just, it's kind of a mixed bag.

• 18:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  But if we just try and be logical here, we're loading the skeletal system, we're getting some impact. We're loading it for a long duration.

• 18:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  You know, let's use common sense here. This is probably a good thing.

• 18:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I also believe that there's a huge benefit as far as balance and stability goes with rucking. Especially rucking outside on trails and like, I live in, you know, Malibu, very hilly country. By the way, we gotta go to a ruck sometime in, in Malibu and I like the red rocks out there in Vegas where you live.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  We'll do both.

• 19:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Why not both?

• 19:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So beautiful. But anyway, like having a sack on is a completely different experience on some of this uneven terrain.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and especially you mentioned stability. So interestingly, with a backpack in particular, your back muscles actually activate less than they would were you standing without a load. That doesn't make sense.

• 19:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That doesn't make sense, right?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  What the hell is going on? Your core actually activates much harder to pick up, to pick up that slack. So it does add core stability and improve core strength, which I think can prevent a lot of injuries. Just helps with overall balance, stability, able to, ability to recover from a fall. And so, I mean, it's one of those things where I'm not one of those people who say you should only ruck. Of course not.

• 20:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  What I'm pointing out is that no one does this thing that humans can uniquely do that has all these benefits. So, I mean, if you, even if you do it once a week, that's great. Not to mention, it's very easy to add into your life.

• 20:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  So if I walk my dogs, I know I'm gonna walk my dogs every day.

• 20:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  I have hunting dogs. They need, they need an insane amount of exercise. I can just throw on a pack with some weight in it, or the hip pack, whatever it is, and I'm gonna get more from every step.

• 20:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  The walk is, yeah, it's gonna be a little more uncomfortable, but it's gonna be worth it.

• 20:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I think too, you mentioned loading. People always ask me, where do I start with the load? I tell people, start with about 10% of your body weight. See how that feels? If it's too heavy, reduce it a little bit. If it's way too light, bump it up a little bit, but 10 seems to be a good place to start. Once you adapt, I found 20% body weight is like a really good go-to that allows me to get a good enough distance, but also feel like I'm carrying a significant amount of weight.

• 21:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And then also, the other guideline is, don't go over a third of your body weight. There's some military research that suggests, once you push over a third, there can be some injury risks.

• 21:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Now, that all said, the other nice thing about rucking is, Way safer than running.

• 21:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Running's great. I love it. At the same time, the injury data on running is like not great.

• 21:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah, it is. And plus, you know, you get outside, you enjoy, hopefully you're doing it outside and enjoy nature. But a lot of people also put on a weight, like a weight belt or a weighted vest while they're on like a treadmill too.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Is that also beneficial?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah, it is. And especially with a, we'll, we'll kind of get in the dorky weeds here. You can go a little heavier if you do it on a treadmill. So when I, I do a lot of outdoor stuff, kind of wacky expedition type stuff. One of my favorite things to do is put the treadmill at like 15% incline.

• 22:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Which is for most, that's about as high as it'll go. Set it to like two to three miles an hour. And you can just load up a backpack with a significant amount of weight and you just walk for like 40 minutes.

• 22:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  You will feel like a pack mule, but it is one of the best things.

• 22:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And building endurance, strength, overall fitness is great.

• 22:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, and it's so much easier on your joints, I think, than running on the treadmill forever. And like on three or four, which is what I used to do for 10 years. And like, why am I not getting any better VO2 max? Why am I not losing weight? And I just found that once I did the incline at a much slower speed. And now with a weighted vest, I just get much, much more out of it, even as far as like fat burning activity.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, studies are small on fat burning.

• 22:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yep.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  But there's a really interesting study on backcountry hunters in Alaska, where these researchers basically track these guys. Weight, fat mass, and then these guys went out for, I think it was a 12 day hunt. So for people who aren't familiar with backcountry hunting, you're carrying in all your gear, you're walking around the mountains all day. These packs are heavy. Once these guys got back, they retested them and they had lost, I think an average of 10 pounds. But it all came from fat.

• 23:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And they actually managed to gain a tiny bit of muscle. So it was insignificant in the study. But you would think in the context of weight loss, you're probably going to lose some muscle.

• 23:30Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  When people lose weight, vast majority of the time, they're going to lose some percentage of muscle.

• 23:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  That didn't happen. And I think it's because there's something about just having weight on you all the time.

• 23:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Where your body just kind of go, this is, you know, simplifying this. Everybody just kind of goes, hey, maybe I should hang on to this muscle because like I'm having to carry this thing all day. And if I'm going to have to lose weight, like, let's get rid of the fat because that's just weighing me down.

• 23:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What do you think about some of these weighted vests that are built to like wear around all day? They're like more fashionable, they're lower weight, but people wear them like all day long. Do you think those are beneficial?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's great.

• 24:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think Ion makes one, right?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, there's, I saw, um, I saw a guy the other day, he was wearing a vest and it almost looks like a really techie like ski vest.

• 24:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  And he was like, here, hold this, you know, and I grab it and he's like, it's 10 pounds. Oh, that actually looks good, too.

• 24:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah. And he's an Ion one. Yeah. So when I was on Gary Breakfast Podcast, he gave me one.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  It was Gary who did that to me, dude.

• 24:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah. So he gave me one. I've been wearing it. I actually love it. I feel like it's a, I feel like it does allow me to stay in like this little bit of a fat burning mode. Maybe I'm just, I'm tricking myself, but I try to wear it around as much as possible.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think just more, and there's, um, oh, man, I'm, I'm forgetting the name of this, of this theory, but effectively, when I mentioned those studies where they'll wear it for a longer amount of time, it seems to do something in the bones where it ends up reducing appetite. I forget the name of the theory. If I think about it, I'll bring it back up. You can just perfectly edit this. It sounds smarter.

• 25:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, just send me a voice note and I'll edit it in.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, perfect.

• 25:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Like you said it. You mentioned in your, um, I think one of your sub stacks, there was a Harvard study recently. On rucking as well, is that correct or walking or rucking?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  There was, well, this was actually, this is probably from a conversation I had with Dan Lieberman.

• 25:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Who is, uh, he's in the anthropology department at Harvard. He's actually one of the main authors on that paper I mentioned earlier that found humans evolved to run long distances as part of persistence hunting. I think it's called endurance and the evolution of homo or something like that. It's a 2004 paper in Nature. Really smart guy, really wise mind in the exercise space. And this, this came from a conversation with him where we were just talking about, you know, what do you think is the ideal distance for people to cover a week? And I'm like, this guy knows, he's read like all the exercise literature. He's like, you know, I think, you know, for me, it's 13 miles at least a week.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  And if you kind of start to do the math on the timing of that, you're like, oh, I could see that. You probably doubled the physical activity guidelines, which, you know, the guidelines I think do a ton of good. But once you double them, you start to see a lot more good and then the benefits start to drop off. So like covering 13 miles a week, I think is a good goal for people.

• 26:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're totally sedentary, I wouldn't start at 13 immediately. You could probably walk 13.

• 26:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  I mean, that's the wonderful thing about walking. It's like everyone can walk.

• 26:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Everyone can walk.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Everyone can walk.

• 26:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

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• 27:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

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• 27:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You mentioned also in some of your writings about the optimal number of steps to walk on a daily basis. And I remember reading somewhere that your wife does like 30,000 steps a day. Is that true?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  She's insane. The story was literally titled, "My Wife: The Insane Walker."

• 27:56Speaker 01

  So this was all prompted by a corporate step challenge. She is competitive as hell. She has this lady she works with who is very active. And Leah's like, "I gotta beat this lady. I gotta beat this lady." So she ended up getting a treadmill desk and she would literally just walk on it all day. And she would look at her step counts at the end of the day and be like 30,000. So and she did that for probably a year. It was just all day. You just do, do, do, do, do. Her walking, but it got her really healthy. So I think like those treadmill desks, I mean, you don't have to do 30,000, but finding ways to sneak activity into your life.

• 28:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Absolutely.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  In a way that is practical, because we have engineered activity out of the world. It's very strange in the grand scheme of time and space. So you have to do some strange things to rediscover it. So that could be a treadmill desk. One piece of advice I like to give people that has seemed to have resonated among people who read the newsletter is if you have a work call, pop in your headphones and take a walk. Like I had a lady who was a reader. She was only getting about 3,000 steps a day, took a lot of calls for work, but she was taking them sitting. You know, she just had this realization, "I do have to take the calls."

• 29:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, you do it anyway.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  "I don't have to take them sitting." So she just started walking and she did it. And she got up past 10,000. And I mean, the data on that is insane. It's like a 50% drop in all cause mortality. And so it's crazy. And she didn't, she didn't have to go, "Okay, after work, now I have to drive to the gym and do this thing and then drive home." Like it didn't cut into her life.

• 29:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  It's finding like those little wins, like the staircase, right? You gotta get to the second floor. Which path are you gonna choose?

• 29:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. I mean, the more I look at the research, it's really, you know, having that intense one hour workout in the morning and getting that out of the way every morning and just it's going all out. But then you go to the office and you sit all day for eight hours. Like you'd almost negate the benefits of the workout during the day. However, if you build in these exercise snacks, there's a lot of research now around this exercise snack concept. I mean, the benefits is almost better for a lot of people than having an intense workout a couple of times a week, right?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's the, to your point, it's a constant motion throughout the day. If you build it in and you find little wins like this that can really add up. And it's not that hard when you do it that way.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you have to be, you have to be creative a little bit. And I think we do, you know, exercise is a concept we invented after the industrial revolution. People never just moved for the sake of it until, you know, in the 50s, or I think, I think it was the 50s. We start to realize that, oh, these people who sit all day seem to be getting more sick than the people who don't. There's a study on London, London bus workers. So they studied drivers versus the ticket takers. These are double decker buses. The ticket takers are going up and down the stairs all day. They're walking around the bus all day. Well, it turns out the bus drivers are getting heart attacks at like a much higher rate. So then you go, okay, well, what do we do? I guess we'll just start to move for the sake of it.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Let's call it exercise. It's a very strange thing, but we still, you know, we have to do it to be healthy. But that said, if you can just find ways to move more in your daily life. Like, there's nothing unique about the 30 minutes you spend in the gym versus, oh, I had to get from point A to point B, so I walked instead. Like, it's all the same stimulus.

• 31:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes, exactly. And I think the more people kind of lean into that. I think there's a lot of focus that people have on what is my exercise routine? How many times I'm gonna go to the gym, meeting with my trainer? And they forget the micro movements all day long.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And we just gotta like change our mindset around that, just as a population to get healthy again.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they'll take the escalator up to the gym on the second floor. To go around on the

• 31:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Like it's insane.

• 31:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's insane. Exactly. So moving on from like exercise, there's other discomforts that you talk about in your book that also can add to benefits, you know, whether it be emotional health or physical health, mental health, et cetera. And you talk a lot about like solitude, for example, right? Can you talk a little bit more about that? I'm interested in hearing your take on solitude.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I covered this actually in two books. I think it's that important, I guess. You know, societally, there's a big focus on loneliness, which I think is important. But to me loneliness is I want to be around other people, but I can't for whatever reason. Something's something's sort of blocking me. Solitude is different in the sense that you're taking time alone to learn something about yourself.

• 32:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  And go inward and sort of explore, you know, who am I? What are, what are, what are these big like questions in my life? And when you look at the research on solitude, it seems to be really good for people. So I like that there's this focus on loneliness. At the same time, I think we've pushed so hard, like you need to be around people all the time. It's like, no, you need to be good with yourself as well and use that time alone for productivity. I talked to a researcher for the Comfort Crisis and he pointed out, look, people come and go. There are going to be times in life where people come and go, whatever. If your happiness and your wellbeing is tied entirely to those people and they leave and you can't be alone,

• 33:21Speaker 01

  well, you got a problem.

• 33:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Right? There's the, there's the quote, I think from Pascal who said, all of man's problems stem from his ability to sit alone in a room with himself.

• 33:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  So to me, that's like this

• 33:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So interesting, yeah.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  This like deep work and it is uncomfortable to be alone at first.

• 33:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  But I think what you get through that and you start to become okay with that, I think that's like a really, it's a good platform to start to build mental health and what does that mean to me? And I've also found, because a lot of my work, like I'll go places, I'll do reporting alone in these wacky places, wilderness, like, you know, far off countries, totally alone. And you're like, I feel totally alone right now. But those things, I've learned so much about myself from those experiences. And I'm okay with being alone.

• 34:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think a lot of people, especially in today's society, when you don't need to be alone because you have your phone right in your hand and you, you know, take it out immediately. Like you see people in line for like five seconds and they can't even like not stand there for five seconds without their phone in their hand and scrolling, right?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so we don't ever have those moments in the day where we are just with our brain by itself, right?

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And I always tell people like, you know, you get great ideas in the shower when you're taking a shower in the morning. It's like that you can replicate that many times during the day.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 34:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  If you just are alone with yourself, right?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so I get some of my best work done with my phone in a different room and me have nothing to do.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, same way. And I think there's, in the book, I talk about how boredom is another discomfort that we've engineered out of life.

• 34:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  So from an evolutionary context, boredom is this psychological discomfort that basically tells us whatever you're doing with your time right now, the return on your time is worn thin.

• 35:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, oh, oh.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  So go do something else. Go do something else.

• 35:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Got it.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  In the past, I would argue that something else was often productive.

• 35:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  So I'll give you the example. Let's say that you and I are hunting. It's, you know, 10,000 years ago, we need food to survive, but no animals are coming through. We're just sitting on a hillside waiting for animals to come through. Well, boredom would kick on, be uncomfortable.

• 35:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  And we go do something else.

• 35:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Well, we need the food. So we're like, well, why don't we go look at this other area for berries? Why don't we go find some tubers, whatever it might be?

• 35:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Today, when we feel boredom, though, we got a million easy effortless escapes from it.

• 35:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  That are immediate.

• 35:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So true.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Right? Pull up, people pull out their phone, you turn on Netflix, you go sit behind the computer, check your email for the 99th million time of the day, whatever it might be. But when you look at research on boredom, it is linked to creativity. There's some really interesting studies around that. It's linked to ideas.

• 36:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  It's also linked to productivity in some cases. So people who go through boredom, when they get back to their office or their work setting, it's like their mind has had time to just kind of float, be free, wander, and then they can better focus afterwards. And when you look at the data on how much time we spend using digital media. It's like more than 12 hours a day on average.

• 36:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  12 hours.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  So that's from TV, cell phones, computers, all these different things.

• 36:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, we're pretty much on some sort of screen all day long for the most part.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  All this stuff is new.

• 36:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Literally for all of human history, we didn't have any of this stuff in our life. And now it's become our lives.

• 36:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  And so, you know, my message is there's a lot of talk around how you need to reduce your phone screen time, which I think is good.

• 36:51Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Problem is, is that when people take two hours off their phone screen time, they get bored.

• 36:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  And they go, oh, I'll just turn on Netflix.

• 36:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  It's the same thing.

• 37:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  So I argue instead of thinking, you know, less phone screen time, just think more boredom. What, where can I have moments in my life where I'm away from media, where I'm with myself? I'm letting my mind do its thing and I'm just unstimulated. For me, I usually will walk every day and just leave my phone at home.

• 37:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Just like I get my best ideas from those walks for sure. Kind of like you said, the shower idea.

• 37:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, exactly, exactly. So it also ties into like what you wrote about in your second book, which is like, humans are also wired to like always want more, more, more, more, right? And so like, I think that's part of boredom is that when we're sitting there bored, we're not like getting something else, right? We're not getting some new thing, whether it be mental stimulation or some physical item, right? And so talk about like scarcity and how that's beneficial.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  So that book, I mean, the big question in that book is everyone knows everything is fine in moderation.

• 37:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  And yet we all suck at it.

• 37:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  And so why is that?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Like I said, a lot of my work goes back to evolution. I do think for all of human history, we never really had enough of the things that we really needed to survive.

• 38:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Food was scarce, information was scarce, possessions were scarce, all these things were scarce. So we evolved, if you were the person who, when you had the opportunity to eat more food than you needed.

• 38:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  To hoard more stuff than you needed, that would give you a survival advantage. But now we just have plenty of all that stuff. Yet we're plopped in with these ancient genes telling us more, more, more in a world where we can fulfill that.

• 38:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  And so you think of how rampant obesity is.

• 38:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And so it's because we're programmed to eat more food than we need. That helped us survive for a lot of time because there was famine all the time.

• 38:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  With possessions, the average home now contains 10,000 to 50,000 items.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, with information. This was a stat I came across. I can't remember the study source, but and I think they were having to do some guesswork here. But it found that the average person today sees more information in one day than a person in the 1400s would have encountered their entire life.

• 39:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  In wait, in one day, we see more information?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, more new information. You just think about all the scrolling, all the, I mean, think of like even just driving in here to the studio, how many ads did I see?

• 39:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  The radios on, there's a bajillion podcasts I could listen to, whatever it might be like, we're just in a sea of information. And so this is like, all these things are great.

• 39:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Right? People are living longer, we're surviving more. But I do think we need times where we pull back from that and just kind of be be with ourselves and realize that we have this impulse for more when we probably don't need it anymore.

• 39:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm. So what are some practical ways people can kind of bring this into their life?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  So for a lot of that book, scarcity brain, I'll give you some background.

• 39:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So what kind of really set me off reporting that book is living in Las Vegas.

• 39:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  The opposite of scarcity.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  The opposite of scarcity and particularly slot machines.

• 40:04Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  So people will play slot machines for hours on end.

• 40:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Even though everyone knows the house always wins.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  The longer you play.

• 40:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You will lose.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'll lose. Town wasn't built on winners.

• 40:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  And so why do people do this thing? Right? So I end up at this laboratory that is a working casino. It's like literally built a casino, but it's used for research on human behavior. And I talked to this slot machine designer.

• 40:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So they have a lab in Vegas?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Obviously, they're studying how to keep you addicted and sitting there on that.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  They're studying how to make, how to make everything more engaging.

• 40:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Every part of the casino experience more engaging. And so I asked this guy, it's like, okay, well, why, why do people get into slot machines? You know, like, what is this? And he goes, oh, I'll show you now. And he just takes me over to slot machine. And long story short is a slot machine works because of three parts. So one is opportunity. You can think about it as like a habit loop. First part is opportunity. So you have an opportunity to get something of value. The second part is unpredictable rewards.

• 41:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Meaning you know you'll get that thing of value at some point, but you don't know when. And you don't know how valuable it's going to be. And then the third part is quick repeatability.

• 41:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  So you try, you see if you got the thing and you can immediately retry.

• 41:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  So to put it in slot machine terms, you can win money. You play a game, you could lose, you could win a dollar, you could win a hundred thousand dollars. Crazy range of outcomes. And then right when the game is over, boom, you're back into another one.

• 41:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So that system, which in the book I call it the scarcity loop. It really got honed in in Las Vegas in the nineteen eighties.

• 41:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh huh.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  So before nineteen eighty, not many people played slot machines. This guy named Cyred came in.

• 41:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And he sort of figured out how are we going to tweak this to be optimal?

• 41:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Once he figures that out, slot machines just overtake casino floors.

• 41:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And people now spend more money on slot machines than they do books, movies and music combined.

• 42:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What do you mean like in America?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Are you kidding me?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 42:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's insane.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  It's an insane industry.

• 42:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, I had no idea.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  So, but then what happens is you see all these other industries go, what the hell is happening in Las Vegas?

• 42:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes. Why are those people doing that? Media industry, right?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 42:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So you see this system being put in all these different forms of technology.

• 42:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  So that's what makes social media work.

• 42:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Right. You have an opportunity to get a like or see something interesting. You don't know when it's going to happen. You don't know how many likes you're going to get on a post and you can check and recheck or you can scroll and re scroll for that like one video. Uh, it's what makes dating apps work.

• 42:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  So what made Tinder blow up is the guy who founded it was like, literally, we just made a slot machine of dating.

• 42:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Once we figured out that slot machinification.

• 42:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  We, it took off.

• 42:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  It's being put in some financial apps, sports betting is a big one where it's in, especially with the quick betting you can do.

• 43:04Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Shopping websites are using it now.

• 43:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Especially with like the quick buys and like this, if you've ever seen a spinning wheel on a website.

• 43:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I have, yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Those increased.

• 43:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hate that thing.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Those increased conversions sevenfold.

• 43:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What?

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh my gosh.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Sevenfold. So you just start to see this Vegasification.

• 43:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Being put in all these different technologies to push us in to more.

• 43:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  And this is, um, to back up, then. The big question is, okay, well, why do we get hooked on these like sort of random reward games into this system? I talked to this researcher, Thomas Centall, and he's OG psychologist. Started studying psychology in like 1968, kind of like came out of the BF Skinner line. And he explained to me like this, he was like, if you think about human evolution, and this applies to all different animals. We evolved searching for food. If you don't find food, you're going to die. Like, that is the game that we had to play every day. So let's say humans go to one place. Oh, there's no food there. Okay, we'll go to another place. No food there. Third place. Ding ding ding jackpot. It's the exact same thing as the law machine, right?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  It's like your opportunities to find food. You know it's out there somewhere, but you don't know where it is and you don't know how much there's going to be.

• 44:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  And if you don't find any, you immediately repeat.

• 44:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  So we really evolved to like fall into those random reward games. If we hadn't, we probably would have died off, but now that just gets applied to all sorts of stuff.

• 44:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Selling us things and social media and everything. That's, it turns out like humans are actually wired very simply.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Very simply.

• 44:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, we think we have this complicated brain up here on the top of our heads, but the wiring is actually very simple and it's very easy to manipulate it.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And even when you recognize you're being manipulated, you still fall into it anyway, right? Like, I, I fall into scrolling on my phone for sometimes a while and I'm like, how did that happen?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  This is what I talk about on my podcast, not to do it, I just did it.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think to me, it's like for, in my own life, it was realizing, oh, that, once you open up the doors of the machine and see how the machine works, it at least gives you the ability to be more aware of it.

• 45:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  For sure.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  So it gives you a better choice, because a lot of these things that we get hooked on, they are fun in the short term.

• 45:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  So if you can recognize that and just accept, okay, I'm going to have a little bit of fun for a minute. But the problem is when people get sucked in, they start to have these long-term consequences.

• 45:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, I think, I think knowing is half the battle. And then the other half the battle, you've got to fight it internally with yourself.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Um, you know, another thing that you talk about that I wanted to ask you about too is morning routines, let's just talk about morning routines in general. And I would love to hear just your take on morning routines in general. And then how do you apply that to your life right now?

• 45:49Speaker 01

  My take on morning routines is that I think it would be useful to ask, what's the larger point of this routine?

• 45:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  What is your ultimate goal? So for me, my goal, I'm a writer. I want to write words and books. So then I ask myself, okay, what helps my writing? Well, it turns out it's like sitting in front of the computer and writing. So I think sometimes people, those can get really noisy for a really vague goal.

• 46:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And asking yourself, what is my ultimate goal? And does, does it serve that?

• 46:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Do you remember the SNL skit Stefan?

• 46:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No, I don't remember that one, no.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  I, I won't use the joke then because you would understand it. But basically there was a SNL skit where this guy would be talking about nightclubs in New York. And he'd be like, it has everything. And then he'd just start naming off all this crazy stuff that'd be in these nightclubs. I feel like that has happened. There's been like a Stefanification of morning routines where people are just putting in like all this random stuff they feel like they have to do.

• 46:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  But it becomes noise. Now that said, if you find something that definitely helps you, that's great. But I would just try and say, okay, just be a little more, don't immediately take in, oh, this random person did this thing in their routine. It's like, well, why did they do it? Does, do their, are their goals the same as mine? X, Y, Z.

• 47:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. That's a really good nuanced view of it because I do agree, like people are hearing all these things that they should put in their morning routine and they're doing it blindly. But what's the why behind that, right?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so for me, you know, I, I actually believe morning routines kind of changed my life completely because I was one of those people that I had no routine throughout my day. And the things I was supposed to be doing to move the needle, I never did them because my day got out of my control once it hit like eight o'clock in the morning, right?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So Hal Elron, you probably read the book Miracle Morning. He was the first book I read on morning routines. And it's like, let me just give this a try. So for 30 minutes, I did the routine that he suggested and did add those pieces to my life. And it got me exercising again, got me, you know, really doing some spiritual work again, which then benefited me and my mindset. And so, but I do agree, like I, I actually, you know, benefited so much from my morning routine that I was one of those people that added a bunch of stuff into it randomly. And then I'm like, why am I doing all? All this, you know, and so I think I think you're absolutely right. It's like, what is the end goal? But I do think, like, you know, we said earlier, humans are wired very simply.

• 48:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And in the morning, first thing in the morning is when you have most of your wiring still intact. And that's the best time to get some stuff done that you need to get done, right?

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, well, I think what's great about your example is, is you had an awareness that things were.

• 48:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Okay, something's off.

• 48:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Let me try this and see if it helps me. And it helped you.

• 48:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Right. I heard someone smart is writing a book called End of One.

• 48:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes, thank you.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  That's a great example of that.

• 48:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  So you figured out this thing helps you.

• 48:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  And then you started to tweak it and then you realize, oh, wait, I've done these things that maybe it's not helping me anymore. So it's that self-awareness rather than just, I took in this random information. I, I just did it without really asking any questions and yeah.

• 48:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, absolutely. And I think that, you know, um, I think for a lot of people, it just depends on where you are and where you want to be. And just like you were mentioning, like really taking a look at, like, am I in a good place or not? And if, if I'm not, like, what are the things I need to improve? And making very mindfully putting the habits and routines into your morning routine that achieve that.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right? It's kind of, kind of what you're recommending. You know, one of the other things that you talked about too, and sorry, I've just had this list of questions for you. I've, and I'm only going to get through like one tenth of my list sadly.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  So it tells me I'm talking to you. I'm telling people, don't do too much. And here I'm just babbling.

• 49:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No, I love it. I just, this means I gotta have you back on again. But you talk about, um, farmers and I wanted to make sure, you know, that we talked about this too. The, the, you recommend looking at farmers and kind of what they do and incorporating some of that into our life. Why?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  This is probably from this amazing study on the Amish.

• 49:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  These researchers studied the Amish and when you look at the Amish, their diet. Not great. It's a lot of like butter and just, I mean, it's a heavy, heavy diet. But they have, they seem to have wonderful health, like obesity rate is low, strong community. They're outside all the time. So I feel like that's kind of this population that has figured out, hey, we're kind of doing things that humans are meant to do. And it managed to, manages to keep us healthy despite the fact that we're doing this one thing where we're frying all sorts of stuff. So the lesson to me is, you know, movement can offset a lot of, a lot of bad habits. Time outside is good for us. Time where you're with people and community, but they also send, spend a lot of time solo.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  To, you know, so it's this balance.

• 50:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think they spend a lot of time solo farming. And when you're farming, you're lifting heavy things too, right? I mean, I think that that's a critical thing there too, is I actually bought a couple of like weighted sacks just to carry from, you know, one side of my yard to the other.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 50:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You know, and just, it's uncomfortable carrying this thing because it's huge. And it's like, you feel like you're going to drop it all the time, but I feel like just, it keeps you present, like you're, you're navigating how to hold this large uncomfortable weird thing that keeps like changing shape and, and carrying it because it, because it's really heavy too, you know, it's like 50 pounds, I think is what it is.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that a lot of people would benefit from carrying things that are sort of odd objects.

• 51:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  I think sandbags are very approachable, things like that, because the load is shifting a little bit. So you have to like balance that you're kind of.

• 51:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's what I'm carrying the sandbags.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like your stabilizing muscles are going to have to figure that out. It's also, I mean, people use the term functional exercises.

• 51:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  That's the functional exercise.

• 51:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That is a functional exercise.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  People have to pick up stuff.

• 51:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  And move it, right? That is like exactly what that is. And it's, it's also, you know, when people ask me, because I write a lot about fitness on 2%, okay, what, what's the one piece of exercise equipment I should get? I usually tell them a sandbag.

• 51:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It's cheap.

• 51:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I learned that from you. I'm just thinking, I'm like, why did I buy this sandbag? I read something you wrote. Yeah, I did one of your workouts that you posted. Yeah, it's a sandbag. It came from you.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  I love it. Cheap.

• 52:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  You can change the load.

• 52:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  You can add more sand when you get stronger. Also, for people who live in a city and have an apartment, like if you drop that on the floor, you're fine. It's not gonna like bang up your floors or, you know, wake up your neighbors. Really just approachable and you can use it for everything.

• 52:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  It's great. Yeah.

• 52:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Yeah. I just love this concept of, you know, you're still working out, but you're now you're doing it instead with, instead of dumbbells, which I still of course have dumbbells, but I have a rucksack now. I have sandbags. I have a sled that I push around to and pull around, you know, and it's real, that's also uncomfortable. Like I'll trip, like trying to pull this thing. And I'm like, that's probably a good thing because like this is a movement that I should not forget how to do is pull things, right? And I think as you get older, you just stop doing that. Like, I don't know, like as a teenager or as a kid, you're like constantly moving weird things around and doing stuff and you just stop doing that.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And you get stuck in this seated position. And what I learned from you is like, do the opposite of that.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think, I think when you look at, you know, use the example of the dumbbell and like I have a garage gym. I have like the dumbbells, the barbells, whatever. But it's all like perfectly calibrated.

• 53:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Perfectly balanced. There's something to picking up something that's not your perfect choice, right? It's gonna move on you. You're gonna have to react to that. There's a great anecdote from some of my special forces friends who, and they say, when you look at who makes it through special forces, like you'll get these guys who are ripped. They look like bodybuilders. They've been in the gym doing their three sets of 10. And then you'll get this like cohort of just farm boys, you know, they're from like Nebraska, Montana. They're a little doughy. You can't see their abs. Like the farm boys make it through at a much higher rate than the people who've been training in the air conditioned gym.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Perfectly balanced loads they've picked. It's because the farm boys are In nature, doing hard things, moving loads that are unpredictable and they're just tough as hell.

• 54:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah, that makes complete and total sense. I love it. So obviously I have to have you back because we just did not have enough time to cover everything.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll do it.

• 54:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  But you know, for the audience out there that's listening to this, I learned a lot from the 2% Substack. So I highly recommend people subscribe to it. And then where else can people learn from you, Michael?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Substack's probably the hub. I have a podcast, but we send out the podcast through the Substack. So you get it there too. And then the books are The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain. And the Substack is twopct.com.

• 54:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yep, twopct. And what's next for you?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I'm working on another book. It's in the editing process. So yeah, that's always fun.

• 54:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Any hints on what it's going to be about?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  A little bit of a follow up to the comfort crisis, but more mindset resilience. So yeah, it's been fun.

• 55:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Can't wait. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you for all the great information you put out there and can't wait to have you on again.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks to you.

• 55:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Awesome. Thank you.

• 55:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I really enjoyed that conversation with Michael. Here are the top five things I learned. Number one, embrace beneficial discomfort for your long-term health. Our modern world is engineered for our comfort, but our bodies are designed for challenges. Reintroducing small, consistent discomforts, like even just walking or carrying some weight, can significantly improve our long-term health and resilience. Number two, rucking is a foundational human movement. Carrying weight while walking, called rucking, taps into our unique evolutionary ability to carry loads over distances. It builds endurance, strengthens our bones and improves our core stability, offering us comprehensive benefits often missing in modern exercise routines.

• 55:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Number three, small movements add up to big health gains. Don't underestimate exercise snacks like taking calls while you're on a walk or choosing the shares. These micro movements throughout the day can be more impactful for overall health and longevity than an intense, isolated workout.

• 56:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Number four, your body adapts to constant load. Wearing a weighted vest or hip pack throughout the day, even with lighter loads, can encourage your body to retain muscle and burn fat more efficiently as it's constantly adapting to the added demand. Number five, challenge that comfort instinct. Humans are wired to seek the easiest path, a survival mechanism that is ingrained in our DNA from the past. Consciously choosing the slightly harder option, like walking instead of driving short distances, can counteract this instinct and lead to better health outcomes.

• 56:51Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you liked this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best and it's always important to seek their guidance.