81: Great Leadership Advice From The British. An Anthology On Leadership for Battle and Life. "Serve To Lead"

0:00:00 - Opening 0:14:22 - "Serve to Lead: The British Army's Anthology on Leadership" http://amzn.to/2tjehyl 2:15:08 - Recap, Lessons, and the Take-Away. 2:16:39 - Support, Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual http://amzn.to/2szgaEj, and The Muster 003 http://www.extremeownership.com. 2:41:01 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 81 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  November 29th, 1915.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  It has teamed. The trenches are ankle deep, some places calf deep in mud. And the communications trenches are rushing streams of brown water.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  The men are wet through, but stick the job like Britons. And I hope for their sake that the weather lifts with the morning.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  The guns have been strafing today, though up till now we have dodged the show.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  It may be ours again tomorrow, though.

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  One never knows.

• 1:02Jocko Willink?

  This is from the diary of Captain Charlie May.

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  The British Army Officer, Commander of B Company. 22nd Manchester Pals Battalion of the Manchester Regiment who served in World War I.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  He was married to Bessie May.

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  And they had one daughter who was born July 20th, 1914.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  So she was a little over a year old when this journal was being written.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  From the trenches.

• 1:49Jocko Willink?

  And it continues, December 1st, 1915. It is exciting work, sniping. In fact, one must curb the tendency lest it should become a fascination.

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  The second-in-command of the E. Lance, the East Lanchester Regiment, and myself, put in a couple hours this morning and had quite a bit of fun whirring the botches in their trenches.

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  One fellow was walking across the open, two thousand yards off, when I spotted him and let go.

• 2:24Jocko Willink?

  "You never saw a chap move quicker in your life."

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  He ran for a tree and jumped behind it, and I let him have four more there.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  Whether I got him or not, I don't know, but he didn't move for the next half-hour.

• 2:42Jocko Willink?

  I know, because I waited so anxiously for him.

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  Last night, or rather, one-thirty this morning, I got outside the barbed-wire and got lost.

• 2:54Jocko Willink?

  Three times I had to fling myself down in the wet grass, bury my nose in it, and grovel while the machine guns went chattering over me.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  It is remarkable with what speed one learns to adopt the prone position.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  January thirteenth, nineteen sixteen.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  "I long and long to see you, to clasp you in my arms, and I long with all my heart to see my baby.

• 3:30Jocko Willink?

  How I love her!

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  What hopes I have for her, what a sweet girl she will make!"

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  February twenty-fifth, nineteen sixteen. Woke up this morning to find the snow pelting down and covering the ground fully five inches deep. Also, it was freezing hard. Cotton, a fellow officer, came in to breakfast with us.

• 4:01Jocko Willink?

  He brought the little bible, which another soldier had taken from the body of a dead German.

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  On the fly-leaf, in a child's handwriting, the word "Dada."

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  War is very sad.

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps, the man may have done and been something to loathe and detest, I do not know.

• 4:31Jocko Willink?

  All I am conscious of, is that somewhere in his fatherland, there is a little child, who called him, "Dada."

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  April 6th, 1916, Fritz strafed our new trenches with heavies and searched round the support with HE, shrapnel, and other such obnoxious stuff.

• 4:58Jocko Willink?

  One shell claimed three NCOs, and wounded three men.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  We all feel wild to get at the beast, and I hope we may string him up on the wire.

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  I saw the killed go down the line.

• 5:16Jocko Willink?

  It was a pitiful sight.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  Poor boys, shellfire is a horrid thing.

• 5:26Jocko Willink?

  Gresti, a lad who was a sergeant of mine, was the worst, his body full of gaping holes.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  It was very, very sad.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  Do those at home realize, how their boys go out for them?

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  Never can they do enough for their soldiers, never can they repay the debt they owe.

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  Not that the men, ask any reward.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  But one day, we'll get at them, with the bayonet. We'll take our price then, for Gresti. And all the other hundreds, thousands, Gresti slain, as they were standing at their posts.

• 6:21Jocko Willink?

  June 17th, 1916.

• 6:29Jocko Willink?

  I do not want to die.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  The thought that I may never see you or our darling baby again turns my bowels to water.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  My conscience is clear that I have always tried to make life a joy for you.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  But it is the thought that our babe may grow up without my knowing her and without her knowing me.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  I pray God I may do my duty, for I know whatever that may entail,

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  you would not have it otherwise.

• 7:20Jocko Willink?

  June 23rd, 1916, everything is speeding up to no end. Ammunition by the hundred wagonload is pouring up. It should certainly not be for lack of ammunition if we do not make a huge success of the venture.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  Yet one cannot help feeling a little anxious and worried.

• 7:45Jocko Willink?

  So much depends on this great throw.

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  And what he's talking about there in this part of the journal, it reflects the buildup for the Battle of the Somme.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  And although Charlie doesn't know exactly when the battle is going to commence, they're obviously only distributing that information with people that have the need to know. They know that a major attack is forthcoming.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  And that's why they've got all that ammunition piled up, more than they could ever think they could possibly need.

• 8:28Jocko Willink?

  Back to the journal, June 28th, 1916.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  The moment seems very auspicious for us to strike.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps we will on Friday.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  July 1st, 1916.

• 8:56Jocko Willink?

  We marched up to the assembly trench last night. The most exciting march imaginable. Guns all around crashed and roared till sometimes it was quite impossible to hear oneself speak. It was, however, a fine sight and one realized from it what gunpowder really means. Fritz, of course, strafed back in reply, causing us some uneasiness and a few casualties before we even reached the line.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  The night passed noisily and with a few more casualties.

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  The Hun puts a barrage on us every now and then and generally claims one or two victims.

• 9:40Jocko Willink?

  It is a glorious morning. We go over in two hours' time. It seems a long time to wait and I think whatever happens, we shall all feel relieved once the line is launched.

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  No man's land is a tangled desert.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  Unless one could see it, one cannot imagine what a terrible state of disorder it is in.

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  But we do not yet seem to have stopped the machine guns.

• 10:17Jocko Willink?

  These are popping off all along our parapet as I write.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  I trust they will not claim too many of our lads before the day is over.

• 10:30Jocko Willink?

  Now I close this old diary down for the next few days since I may not take it into the line.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  I will keep a record of how things go. And enter it up later.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 10:54Jocko Willink?

  That update.

• 10:57Jocko Willink?

  Never took place.

• 11:01Jocko Willink?

  And Charlie May was wrong about how many British soldiers would be claimed before the day was over. He didn't think it would claim too many, but as you know, the first day of the Battle of La Somme, July 1st,

• 11:17Jocko Willink?

  turned out to be the worst day in history for the British Army.

• 11:24Jocko Willink?

  And they suffered almost 60,000 casualties.

• 11:31Jocko Willink?

  60,000 casualties in one day.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  And like I said, those casualties included Charlie May, who went over the top

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  on July 1st, under the cover of Allied artillery. He was leading B Company.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  And he and his men fought their way across no man's land and just as they reached German lines, Charlie was hit by shell fire, then killed.

• 12:08Jocko Willink?

  And his diary was found by the man that eventually dragged him back to the trenches, Private Arthur Bunting,

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  who mailed the diary to Charlie's wife, Maude.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 12:40Jocko Willink?

  the British have a steeped military history.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  And obviously, this is the kingdom that we Americans rebelled against in the Revolutionary War and we fought them again in the War of 1812.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  And we actually had a bunch of other little various disputes with them until the late 1800s.

• 13:04Jocko Willink?

  When during something called the Great Reproachment.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  Through various forces in the world, our political.

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  Objectives were aligned and we became the staunchest of allies with Great Britain through World War I. And World War II and Korea and Vietnam and even up till now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  And I've been lucky enough to work alongside Brits on just a couple of occasions while I was in the military.

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  And there's no doubt that. They are just outstanding troops. Professional in everything that they do and they leave that impression on you.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  You can actually feel. The pride of their military tradition.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 14:06Jocko Willink?

  Tonight I wanted to take a, at a, a look at a book that is part. Of that military tradition.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  And the book is called.

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  Serve to Lead.

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to start with some statements from the introduction. To this version of the book and the version of the book that I'm reading is the old version. I think it's from 1954 or 57. Originally written right after World War II and these comments here are. From a guy named Robin Matthews, a former British Army officer. Graduate of the Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst. That's like the British West Point. He went on to command his regiment, the Light Dragoons, which included a tour of duty in Iraq in 2005. He also served with 16 Air Assault Brigade in Helmand Province in Afghanistan.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  And here's what he has to say about this book. "Serve to Lead is a remarkable book, produced by the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the Second World War. It is as clear and concise a treatise on leadership as you will find. It also provides a fascinating glimpse into what sets the profession of arms apart from any other." "Serve to Lead is synonymous with Sandhurst, placed on the bed of every officer cadet at the beginning of their military training. Somewhere between prayer book, which is what

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  I thought it was initially, and bible, as it has often been referred, it lays out what is expected and what to expect. Unequivocally, it establishes selflessness, self-discipline, integrity, and duty as the bedrock of leadership. Excitingly, it speaks of courage and boldness as the essential differentiators upon which events turn and to which soldiers and leaders are instinctively drawn." "There is so much to enjoy and consider on every page, but the most beguiling message

• 16:30Jocko Willink?

  of the book concerns humility. Leadership must be confident, but unless it is matched in equal measure by humility, it jars, at which point the lead simply fall away. If I am to lead you, first and foremost, I must be your servant." Like any good book, the clue is in the title. In this case, simple, seemingly contradictory, but ultimately profound. Serve to Lead.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  And that's the intro to this book. And obviously, there's a dichotomy in leadership. He's already talking about things that we talk about all the time. And yes, you've got to be confident, but you've got to be humble. And the title of the book is a contradiction. It's a dichotomy in its own sense, right? Serve to lead.

• 17:27Jocko Willink?

  And like I said, this book, they actually have a new one. And I have the new one. I went with the old one. And the reason I went with the old one is a couple of things that we're going to point out that clearly they've changed their thoughts on. And maybe we'll end up doing a compare and contrast with the new one. There aren't that many differences, but there certainly are some very significant differences. And we'll get to those. And this is going to kick off with a piece from the Lord Bishop of Durham.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  "It is the fact that some men possess an inbred superiority which gives them a dominating influence over their contemporaries and marks them out unmistakably for leadership. This phenomenon is as certain as it is mysterious. It is apparent in every association of human beings, in every variety of circumstances, and on every plane of culture. In a school among boys, in a college among the students, in a factory, shipyard, or mine among the workmen, as certainly as in the church and in the nation, there are those who, with an assured and unquestioned title, take the leading place and shape the general conduct." So there's an opinion.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  And people ask all the time, are leaders born or made? That one right there is, hey, leaders are born.

• 18:52Jocko Willink?

  And that's, I always say both. I always say there's certain leadership qualities that people are born with. And some people are born with a lot of them. Some people are born with a lot of those qualities. Some people are born with a lot less. Some people aren't born with any. They're not going to be much of a leader. It doesn't matter how much you train them. You can get them better, but they're not going to be a great leader. And

• 19:16Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, some leaders don't need much training.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  There's very few of those. Leaders that just don't, that just get it out of the gate as just born that way. I think it's a mixture of both. And I think you're born with some leadership capability. And the more you hone it, the more you work on it, the better you're gonna be.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Why would you think, or why do you think that is? Cause to be a leader, like the good, strong qualities that you gotta have are so contradict, or counterintuitive?

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  They're not even counterintuitive, but you can get better at all of them. You know, a couple, the one that's, for instance, some people are naturally talented, or some people are naturally articulate people. So they're able to get their message across in simple, clear, concise language. That's very important. Now, if you're born with that, you're lucky, right? Good job. You were born with that. You were born an articulate person. If you weren't, guess what? You're gonna have to work at it. You're gonna have to read, you're gonna have to write, you're gonna have to listen, you're gonna have to practice speaking to people. And you will get better at it. So those, that's your example. Some people just have it naturally. And, but even people that have it naturally will get better at it over time. I was always pretty comfortable speaking to people.

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  But obviously, when I was in the military, I spoke to people all the time. And when I was in a training, training situation as a young enlisted SEAL, I was put up in front of the classroom to speak to people and I got better at it. And then when I became an officer and a leader, now I was briefing people and so I'm doing it even more. And then I took over the training for the West Coast SEALs and now I was briefing people all the time. And, and when I was overseas, I was briefing, you know, colonels and generals and, okay, you're gonna brief a bunch of times, you're gonna get better at it. I was already okay at it, just naturally, but I got better at it and I'm still getting better at it today. So, that's the same with any of these particular talents, you know, being able to simplify things, being able to detach. Those are all important leadership qualities.

• 21:17Jocko Willink?

  You can have a certain level that you're capable at, but the more you practice them, the better off you're gonna be.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 21:25Jocko Willink?

  So it's a combination.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how you say like, oh, there's, it's pretty rare that you get somebody who's, um, has all the qualities right out the gate.

• 21:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not, not, I can't, I've never met anybody that just, just dominates in every category across the gate.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Because like, like detaching, for example, that's not, that's kind of counter to your natural way of being, is what I'm saying.

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true. Most people are gonna want to get in there, for sure.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're in there.

• 21:51Jocko Willink?

  Now, I, I, I just thought of this example, I, I've talked about him a little bit on the, on the podcast when we had Tim Ferriss on Alton League Grizzard. He was, uh, he was the, he was my assistant platoon commander when I was at SEAL Team One, and he, he got murdered. It was horrible, tragic situation. He was involved in a murder-suicide. And, but he, he had a lot of those capabilities. He had a lot of, he was very articulate. He was the quarterback at the Navy football team, so we had like a real good presence to him. He spoke clearly. He was down to earth and yet, you know, very, he could elevate himself very quickly when he was talking to the cert-, you know, if he needed to elevate himself, he just had a lot of those qualities very naturally. And, and, guess what?

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  He was at the Naval Academy, he played football, he was constantly getting in front of, you know, getting in the huddle and telling guys what was gonna happen. And you get good at that over time. And part of that is, so I don't know how much of it, you know, I didn't know him when he was a football player, when he was in eighth grade. Maybe he was stammering and trying to put his thoughts together, but then he trained it over and over and over again, and he got better at it. And maybe by the time he got to me as a 23-year-old Lieutenant JG, he was like, oh, we're gonna get in a huddle? I'll tell you guys what's going on.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  And so, you know, even though it appeared to me like it was natural, it probably wasn't. It was probably trained. You know, he had some natural capability, but he played football his whole life. And that was that.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in, in a way, you can kinda, and this may be kinda interchangeable as far as the expression, but you know, you say natural capability. It could be that they gain it through learning or whatever, just through their environment, you know, like as, as a kid, you know?

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So playing football.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  And then they'll bring it to the training situation and they'll excel.

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but. I think it's gotta be a little bit of both, right?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:37Jocko Willink?

  And you will get better at it, but the more you focus on that particular skill, like, some people aren't very comfortable talking in, in, you know, even they're not even comfortable talking in a conversation, right?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  And so if you end up with a kid like that, well, you gotta get him out and socialize him and get him in, get him in front of people talking all the time and that will be good for them.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  If you have someone that's, if you've got a kid or, yeah, if you've got a kid or a young leader that doesn't know when to shut up, right? How are you gonna, because sometimes leaders are like that too. They wanna hear themselves talk and they just keep talking all the time. And guess what? The more you talk, the less people listen. So if I'm giving orders on every little thing that we've gotten to do in front of us, eventually you're not listening to me anymore. And when something critical comes up, you're still not listening to me because I've been talking for the past six straight months, won't shut my pie hole. So that's a bad situation. So how do we get that person to quiet down?

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  It's both.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:37Jocko Willink?

  All right. So now we're gonna hear from a guy named Field Marshal William Slim. I think Bill Slim is what they ended up calling him. He was in World War I and World War II. Wounded multiple times, I think three times. Led the 14th Army in Burma, World War II. And he also fought with the ANZAC, so the, the Australian New Zealand Army Corps at Gallipoli. So you could say he's got a pretty good, uh, view of things.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  So he's, this, the, believe it or not, the first, this, this book kicks off with talking about morale and the morale of the troops. So here we go, back to the book. Morale is a state of mind. It is that intangible force which will move a whole group of men to give their last ounce to achieve something without counting the cost to themselves.

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  That makes them feel that they are part of something greater than themselves.

• 25:42Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is interesting. So, so he's talking about the importance of morale. Now going back to the subject we were just talking about.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, I learnt too, that one did not need to be an orator to be effective. Two things only were necessary. First, to know what you were talking about. And second, and most important, to believe it yourself. So, there you go. You don't need to be a great orator, but you gotta know what you're talking about, and you gotta believe it. Those are two really good places to start.

• 26:23Jocko Willink?

  He continues on talking about morale. He says, "A most potent factor in spreading this belief in the efficiency of an organization is a sense of discipline. We tried to make our discipline intelligent, but we were old fashioned army and we insisted on outward signs. We expected soldiers to salute and officers to salute in return, both in mutual confidence and respect. I encouraged all officers to insist whenever possible, and there were few places where it was not possible, on good turnout and personal cleanliness. It takes courage, especially for a young officer, to check a man met on the road for not properly saluting,

• 27:03Jocko Willink?

  or for slovenly appearance. But every time he does, it adds to his stock of moral courage. And whatever the soldier may say, he has respect for the officer who does pull him up." Now, this is an interesting point, right? Because what we're talking about here is, oh, I see Echo's, you know, not wearing his uniform correctly, so I'm gonna go over and tighten you up.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  That is, you can see where, you can see where people are probably thinking, "Yeah, Jac will be all over that guy", right? No, actually wrong. That's actually wrong. And what we're gonna talk about here is, I'm gonna talk about what I call leadership capital. You only have so much leadership capital in your bank. And you've gotta decide what, as a leader, you're gonna spend that capital on. And if I see you out of uniform, or you're looking sloppy... I've got to decide if it's worth me investing my leadership capital and going over and telling you that you need to tighten it up. Hey Echo, you need to get that. Hey Sergeant Charles, you need to get your uniform squared away. You look like crap. You're setting a bad example.

• 28:09Jocko Willink?

  Is that what I want to invest my leadership capital on? Now, can it be sometimes? Yes, absolutely. And we've talked about the many cases where that occurs. You know, when you look at Hackworth, when Hackworth showed up to Vietnam as a battalion commander, he tightened up their uniform standards immediately. He tightened them up immediately. He knew he needed to invest that leadership capital. He needed to start with the small things. But if you're in a garrison situation and you see somebody that maybe isn't doing their, isn't wearing their uniform properly, and you decide you're going to go tighten them up, I'm not, I'm not saying it's the wrong answer. And as Leif Babin will tell you, it's not what you preach, it's what you tolerate. And so if you tolerate the guys looking like

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  crap, they're just going to continue going down that hill of looking like crap. Now, to me, there's a certain point, right, that I won't let you go past. If you're a little out of the, out of the standard, maybe I'm going to let that one slide a little bit, right? But once you get to a point where you're looking like crap, well, guess what? I am absolutely going to tighten you up. And I'm going to explain to you why it's important. I'm not just going to go and yell at you. No, not happening. So you've got to be careful how you ration your, your discipline and your leadership capital, right? If you just run around yelling at everyone or getting in everyone's face for every little thing that they're doing, pretty soon, you could look at that like, well, pretty soon, they'll,

• 29:35Jocko Willink?

  they'll be scared of making a mistake. But that's, that's the point. Now you've got people that are scared of making a mistake. Now you're cutting off their ability and their desire to think freely. So the bottom line with this, balance. You've got to stay balanced in these things and don't waste your leadership capital. I was talking to a guy the other day. He was running a offsite for his executive team. And I talked to him and, and he said, man, you know, he was just junk. And I said, what happened? And he had showed up to the executive offsite and he's in the company and he's the guy that's running the offsite and he gets there and he says, all right, guys, while we're here, no

• 30:17Jocko Willink?

  cell phones. So everyone put your cell phones away. We need to focus. This is a strategic meeting. We need to, we need to get this done. So the guys put their cell phones away and they start the meeting. He's, he says, five minutes into the meeting, the CEO breaks out his cell phone, starts looking at it. A minute after everyone sees that, you got half the room looking at their cell phones. And he went like, got kind of nuts on him. You know, this is man, what's, what's going on? And people aren't even paying attention. You know, after the first, at first hour, he's this, you know, what's going on? And I said to him, I said, bro, let's look at what you just, so then he said, then he lost him. Like the, the meeting just went downhill.

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  And I said to him, let's talk about what you did. Because you invested your leadership capital for this important meeting on telling people to not use their cell phones. Did you tell them why? He's like, not really. Did you explain to them when they would be able to use their cell phones? No, I didn't. So you just went, now, this company is a, a, a financial company. They've got a lot of things going on. You can imagine the CEO of a big financial company's got a lot of important calls and emails to check and all that. And all of a sudden he gets told no cellphone. When is that going to end? What, what important thing is happening at my company today? Where I'm not allowed to talk on my cellphone and answer emails or look at,

• 31:36Jocko Willink?

  look at my emails? And I'm the guy. So, so when am I supposed to, when would I be able to look at you? You didn't tell me that. So he invested all of his leadership capital to get people to do no cell phones. And he spent it. And there wasn't any left. And, and the, you know, so you have to be careful. Now, you have to approach it the right way, right? First of all, you could say, hey, listen, guys, we're going to power through a solid hour right now. I'm going to ask you, unless it's just critical.

• 32:05Jocko Willink?

  Keep your cell phones put away and let's power through this. Let's get some good conversation going. Right? And, and in an hour, we're going to take a 20 minute break where you can catch up when you gotta catch up on. And then we'll do another hour after that. So now people understand what's happening and they understand why. And by the way, you know, if everyone's on their cell phones, we're not going to get what we need out of this meeting. So you gotta explain and you don't want to invest your leadership capital on things that don't matter. So if you're the senior guy in a leadership position and you're focused on some little person that's out of uniform and that's what your focus is. That's, that's not a good focus to have, right? You should set the standard and your subordinate leadership all the way down to the front where you've got like you and me, our peers, and I don't let you.

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm the one, not, I'm not waiting for the boss to come by and tighten up your uniform. I won't let you tighten up. I, I won't let you wear a crappy looking uniform. That's what I want. I want to have a gang mentality where we're self policing. Because the minute I'm from the top doing that, again, does this happen sometimes? Yes. I'm not setting out a, a, a black and white rule here. I'm giving the broad guidance that if you're Hackworth and you're taking over battalion where people's lives are at risks and you know that there's slack everywhere and they're not doing a good job. You gotta go in there and tighten them up. And one of the best ways to do that is to go in there and start on the small things. But if you've got a functioning unit,

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  that there's nothing critical happening and you're trying to build that team into something that's, that's a, a, a winning team. And the first thing you could do is go in and focus on some of these small things when you haven't really established yourself. That could be problematic. So think about those things when you're in those positions.

• 33:49Jocko Willink?

  All right. Going back to the book. I do not say that the men of the 14th Army welcomed difficulties, but they grew to take fierce pride in overcoming them by determination and ingenuity. From start to finish, they had only two items of equipment that were never in short supply. Their brains and their courage. They lived up to the unofficial motto I gave them, God helps those who help themselves.

• 34:19Jocko Willink?

  And once again, that's the same thing that Colonel Bill Reader said.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  Gotta help yourselves. All right, now we're going to move on to still, still talking about morale. We're going to talk to, or we hear from Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery. If you don't know who that is, Monty.

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  World War I, the Anglo-Irish War, the Palestine conflicts that dis- or uprisings, and World War II. He, you know, obviously ran the British Eighth Army, World War II. So we've, once again, we've got a person with some very solid perspective on leadership and combat leadership. The quality of morale, back to the book. In war, the moral stature of some men increases, and their characters grow stronger and more closely knit in proportion to the discomforts and dangers they are called upon to face. Boom. So some guys get better. Some guys rise to the occasion.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, such men will occasionally perform in battle remarkable acts of selfless courage and daring, and will endure with extraordinary fortitude and patience the burdens thrust upon them. Other men, however, will, under the stress of hardships or dangers, surrender to fear or fatigue and allow their characters to disintegrate.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  This disintegration will usually take the form of a loosening of the moral fiber, which results in timidity of action and slackness in appearance, while those who have gone to seed will be dirty and their appearance will be sluggish and will be slovenly. In these later cases, there has been a general loosening of character due to partial surrender to fear.

• 36:17Jocko Willink?

  So I totally agree with this. You see in combat situations, people either get better or they get worse. Some people just kind of cruise, right? Stay in that same zone, but, but some people, they get better or they get worse. They rise to the occasion or they fall. Back to the book, the good soldier, the man with high morale, has not surrendered to fear and has maintained his personal standards. The bad soldier, the man with low morale, has become incapable of independent action and has to some extent shed a part of his human individuality. That's an interesting, that's an interesting statement,

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  that the person that's incapable of independent action, he's saying he shed some of his human individuality. Back to the book, basic factors of morale, we now must consider the factors,

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  what, what factors constitute morale of the soldier in the heat of battle? Certain factors may be described as essential conditions without which high morale cannot exist.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  These four basic factors are, one, leadership, two, discipline, three, comradeship, and four, self-respect. A fifth factor, devotion to cause, must exist but need not necessarily influence all the soldiers. Finally, there are numerous contributory factors which are of great importance but are not essential conditions. Starting with this first one, leadership. Morale is, in the first place, based on leadership. Good morale is impossible without good leaders. Human beings are fundamentally alike in that certain common characteristics

• 38:06Jocko Willink?

  apply to all men in varying degrees. In battle, the most important of these characteristics is fear. All men are afraid at one time or another to a greater or lesser extent. In moments of fear, they band together and look for guidance. They seek for a person to give decisions. They look for a leader.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  The leader's power of decision results from his ability to remain calm in the crisis. His greatest asset is the ability to act normally in abnormal conditions, to continue to think rationally when his men have ceased to think, to be decisive in action when they are paralyzed by fear.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  Little bit of normal face from Monty. Act normally in abnormal conditions. Remain calm.

• 39:08Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The object of training must be first to select those who possess them, within them, the potentialities of leadership, and secondly, to develop these potentialities. This is accomplished by giving the leader responsibility. A leader's character will develop in proportion to the responsibility with which he has been entrusted. So there you go. He's saying the same thing that we were talking about earlier. You have certain potentials and you've got to develop those. And how do you develop them? With people? You give people, you want to develop leaders, you give them responsibility. You don't give them responsibility, that's going to kill them. But you give them responsibility, that's going to definitely test them. And they're going to have to step up to be able to perform.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The two vital attributes of a leader are, A, decision in action, and B, calmness in crisis. Given these two attributes, he will succeed. Without them, he will fail. Our great problem in peace is to select leaders, it's to select as leaders, men whose brain will remain clear when intensely frightened.

• 40:24Jocko Willink?

  So, from Monty, you've got to remain calm. Now, he's going to talk about discipline. The object of discipline is the conquest of fear. There are two aspects of fear. Fear can suddenly attack a man through his imagination. A corpse in a ditch or a grave by the far side of the road will remind him of his position. He will suddenly realize that he himself is liable to be killed. It is a function of discipline to fortify the mind so that it becomes reconciled to unpleasant sights and accepts them as normal, everyday occurrences.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  Fear can also creep upon a man during periods of monotony on the line. At such time, he will have the opportunity to appreciate the dangers which beset his life. Fear acting through his thoughts can so reduce the man's hardcore of courage that he will become nervous and fearful. Discipline strengthens the mind so that it becomes impervious to the corroding influence of fear. It teaches men to confine their thought within certain definite limits. It instills the habit of self-control. That's pretty amazing. It's a pretty amazing assessment to think that one of the best premier tools to overcome fear is discipline.

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, discipline implies a conception of duty. Nothing will be accomplished in the crisis by the man without a sense of duty. Makes sense. Now he's going to talk about comradeship. Back to the book. Morale can not be good unless men come to have affection for each other. A fellow feeling must grow up, which will result in a spirit of comradeship. An army is made of human beings. So that however much a leader may inspire his men, however perfect the discipline, the morale will be hard and unsympathetic if the warmth of comradeship has not been added.

• 42:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta be, gotta be the hardcore disciplinarian, but you need the warmth of comradeship. Back to the book, war, though a hard business, is not necessarily a grim one. Men must laugh and joke together, must enjoy each other's company, company, and must get fun out of even life, must get fun out of life even in times of danger. So.

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  Do you want to have a good time? Yes, you do. And the, the thing that makes these dangerous times more bearable is when you're having fun during them. And that's one of the things, you know, I don't talk a whole lot about SEAL training in here on, on the podcast, but one of the things that you do in SEAL training is you're doing miserable things, cold, wet, tired, and you're having fun the whole time. You're learning that, hey, guess what? I can sit here and be cold and it's miserable, or I can be cold and I can laugh about it. And I can make fun of my friend the way he's shivering. You know, that's what makes it bearable. And the same thing happens when you get overseas. And you joke about really dark things, you know, dark sense of humor.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  That comes out real strong when you're overseas. One of my, one of my buddies who was super paranoid, I've talked about him on here before. The guys, the guys found a tube that had shipped like maps or something, and if you pulled the tube apart real fast, it sounded like a mortar, a mortar launch. And so they'd get outside his tent and he was super paranoid. We, we spent a little bit of time getting mortared and so he was a little on edge from that.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  So they'd go outside of his tent, you know, and you can hear through the tent, it's just a little piece of fabric. And they'd go outside of his tent and they'd pull that thing and it would sound like a mortar tube.

• 44:22Jocko Willink?

  He'd freak, you know, what the hell are you guys doing? Or, you know, at first you'd hear him like fall and like hit the ground. And then you'd hear the giggling of the guys outside and then you'd hear him cussing everyone out. But, uh, yeah, but it was fun. It was funny.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Too far.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  A little too far maybe, but, but everyone's having a good time. And even him, you know, we'd get done and he would be come outside, you guys are bastards and we'd laugh about it. That's the kind of thing where you're, you gotta have fun in these tough situations.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  That's probably why, you know, like nowadays, like contemporary companies, they in court like, Jade's company, Fragmop, they got foosball.

• 45:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, ping pong.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Things and ping pong.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  I heard, I heard massive noises the other day, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic, and I was, kind of sounded like.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Like a mortar fire?

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't quite mortar fire, but there was something, I didn't know what it was, and they were, they were in a, in a Nerf gun firefight.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:16Jocko Willink?

  And, by the way, it was sloppy. Like, no one knew what they were doing.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  No technique.

• 45:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there was no cover and move happening. It was just all, every man for himself. I was pretty disappointed.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the rea-

• 45:26Jocko Willink?

  But they're having fun.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Like the reason, right, where it's, it's, I mean, they, these are, I mean, conceptually, it's the same thing, obviously, you know, it's way different.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  No, actually, it's way different, but it's not, actually not.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  When you're going through tough things, in a business, in a company, have fun with it. And when I work with companies that are good, good companies, and they're going through something tough, the ones that have good morale, the ones that are laughing, they're the ones that do better.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  Who wants to go to work?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:53Jocko Willink?

  If you don't enjoy the people you're working with, you know?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  Like, why would you want to do that? You know, one of the, one of the, uh, I hate even calling it the worst job, but I, I was the admiral's aide, right? So every day, I'm wearing a uniform, I'm in, sitting at a desk all day. I did it for 13 months. It was just, that part of it, it's, it's, you know, even, it's just a miserable job, right? Luckily, first of all, the admiral's a great guy, and I had a lot, you know, we, I joked around all the time with him, and his executive assistant is a guy that I would literally not, I would go two or three weeks at a time, and we wouldn't say one serious thing to each other. Just everything would be some joke about every, all the misery that we were going through, and, and by misery, I just mean,

• 46:38Jocko Willink?

  you know, hours worth of meetings and traveling all the time, and being on the road, and staying in crappy hotels, and flights getting, you know, bumped and canceled, and being held over, and the, the admiral's suitcase not showing up somewhere, and he's supposed to go on stage, he doesn't have a uniform with him, and, like, that's, you know, not fun. But guess what? I had fun the whole time, and we'd be joking about, you know, I'd say, well, I guess I'm gonna get, take, take one again for the team, and we'd be just laughing. So yeah, even in these situations that aren't fun, have you gotta have fun with them and that definitely will help out your morale. And if you're in a leadership position and all you do is just bear, you don't get drown in the misery that you're going through. Every single person that's with you is going to be going through the same thing.

• 47:21Jocko Willink?

  And so as a leader, you gotta, once again, going back to the dichotomy of leadership, you gotta, you gotta know when, okay, the guys are under too much stress, they're not having fun, I need to have fun, I need to start a nerf war in the, in the office here. So guys loosen up. And then there's times where, hey, guys are having too much fun and we gotta tighten them up.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, guys, we got this to do. And so you gotta ride that, that line and balance it out correctly.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's cool how like newer companies that were companies nowadays are are incorporating that element into the, the actual, you know, you're talking about.

• 47:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you're right. And there's companies nowadays that do it too much and all of a sudden they can't get anything done.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're messing around.

• 48:02Jocko Willink?

  Because everyone's playing ping pong, right? Everyone's in the Lego room. Cause they got rooms now where it's like, oh, you go in there and think and build, play with Legos. Cause that relaxes your mind, I guess. Not me, when I'm around Legos, I think I'm gonna step on them. Cause I got kids and I've stepped on Legos. It's a nightmare. So I don't like being around Legos. I got the PTSD from Lego stepping when I was, my kids were younger. You know, cause you can't ever get your son enough Legos apparently.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  Cause they just need everything. And when I was a kid, there was not that many different types of Legos. You had blocks.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  Long ones and shorter ones, right? Nowadays, you get Legos, but they have hands and arms and machine guns and they got cool stuff, but they ain't Legos anymore. They're little toys. But they still come with the little Legos and they still hurt the bottom of your feet when you step on them.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  They are surprisingly sharp for kids.

• 48:53Jocko Willink?

  Major sharp, yeah. Major sharp. Alright. Going back to the book, he's, the other thing he talked about was self-respect. No man can be said to possess high morale if the quality of self-respect is lacking. And this is something that Dick Winters talked about too, that self-respect and how that drove him. Soldiers must be encouraged to respect themselves at all times and under all condition. Self-respect implies a determination to maintain personal standards of behavior. A man who respects himself will allow neither himself to become slovenly nor his quarters dirty.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  Even in action, he will take care to see that his personal appearance suffers as little as possible. It is the job of the non-commissioned officer to maintain this aspect of discipline. It is the function of the officer to encourage and instill self-respect. So, interesting, he breaks that down a little bit like I was talking about. If I'm the senior guy and I'm around yelling at people about how they're looking, that's not good. That should be my subordinate leadership should be tightening that stuff up. Okay, here's his conclusion. Again, this is Monty talking.

• 50:13Jocko Willink?

  "In brief, high morale has been defined as the quality which makes men endure and show courage in times of fatigue and danger. The cultivation of morale depends on the training of leaders, an inculcation of discipline, the encouragement of comradeship, and the infusing of self-respect. The leaders must have a belief in their cause, and they must pay attention to numerous contributory factors of considerable but secondary importance. We live today in a scientific age, but we soldiers have to remember that the raw material in which we have to deal is men.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  Man is still the first weapon of war. His training is the most important consideration in fashioning of a fighting army. All modern science is directed towards his assistance, but on his efforts depends the outcome of the battle. The morale of the soldier is the most important single factor in war."

• 51:25Jocko Willink?

  So there's Monty and that's

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  that can be said for just about any organization. What your organization is made up of is people. And you know, you hear that with businesses all the time. Our people are our most important assets. That's generally going to be the case.

• 51:43Jocko Willink?

  Here's some, now we get into the leadership, the actual leadership section. Interesting, again, they start off with morale. That's the first chapter. Now they move into leadership. And you know, clearly from what he just said, morale is the most important thing in winning battle. I don't agree. I think leadership is the most important thing. Now, his number one is number one factor in good morale is leadership. So I guess, you know, you could see where we're coming from a different angle, but my, my thought is a little bit different. My thought is the most important thing is leadership. And I think that leadership covers other things just be besides the morale of the men, because now we're talking about the strategy that you're using, the tactics that you're using. Everything is covered by leadership, including morale.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you guys are looking at it from not opposite, but just varying perspectives where he thinks leadership is part of morale. You think

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think morale is part of leadership. Yes. I think you have identified the situation correctly. All right. Here's some more from Monty on leadership. I would define leadership as the will to dominate. Together with the character which inspires confidence. A leader has got to learn to dominate the events which surround him. He must never allow these events to get the better of him. He must allow nothing to divert him from his aim. He must always be on top of his job and be prepared to accept responsibility. So Monty's talking about ownership. Now what I have to caveat this with.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  Is you get these people that are single minded, right? And that they're going to dominate everything that's going on around them. And they do that from a tactical perspective, not from a strategic perspective. So for instance, if you say, um, I must never, or I must dominate the events which surround me. And must allow nothing to divert me from my aim. That can actually be problematic. If it doesn't make strategic sense, right? So if I'm always worried about dominating everything that's going on around me. And the thing that's going on around me isn't really that important. I'm wasting my time on it. So this has to, this has to be sort of offset a little bit by that dichotomy of leadership.

• 54:01Jocko Willink?

  Which is yes, you want to dominate what's going on. But if what's going on isn't important, you need to let it go. You need to just let it go a little bit.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  All right, so now we're going to hear from. And by the way, this book, what this book served to lead. It's, it's basically a bunch, I should have said this in the beginning, but it's, it's a bunch of small excerpts. Bigger than quotes, some of them are just quotes, which I don't do a bunch of like, hey, just reading quotes. I do a couple, I'm going to do a couple today. But some of them are like, you know, two, three, four pages of people's views on leadership, of which I'm pulling out some of the highlights. And interestingly, for the first time I was going through some of this and I was like, you know what? I'm actually, it was something that I've, it's something that I've said a million times. And so I said, you know what, I'm not actually going to highlight this again.

• 54:56Jocko Willink?

  Because I've said it over and over again. Now clearly with discipline, I just talked about it for 47 minutes and I probably always will when I get the opportunity. But there's a lot more about discipline, there's a whole section on discipline we'll get to. All right, now we're going to talk, we're going to hear from General John Hackett. Again, uh, World War Two, Afghan campaign. It's part of Market Garden, which is the big airborne operation, the World War Two. And here's what he says. I am a soldier. In speaking of leadership, I do so as a soldier. And when I think about it, as any soldier often must, I do so in the context of battle.

• 55:37Jocko Willink?

  Pressures in battle are high and in battle, as a consequence, the problems of leadership stand out in bold relief. And that's something very similar to what I say, which is combat is like life amplified and intensified. Wrote that in Extreme Ownership, and that's what I'm talking about. And because it's that way, it's very easy to identify what's going on with the leadership. It's a very, the problems of leadership stand out in bold relief. He said it better than me. Back to the book. But while battle may be unique, the problems that it exposes are not.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  Right? Yes, leadership problems and have been working for seven years with other companies and people that are not going to battle. And guess what? The problems that battle exposes are not unique to battle.

• 56:29Jocko Willink?

  For leadership is concerned with getting people to do things and is most keenly needed when difficulties, doubts, and dangers are at their greatest. In whatever sphere this is attempted, the problems are essentially similar. So anytime you've got a team, you've got to try and make them do something, the problems are pretty much going to be similar.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. I said that leadership was concerned with getting people to do things. What I meant was getting them to do things willingly.

• 57:04Jocko Willink?

  So, we don't want to just bark orders at people. That doesn't work, doesn't work in business, doesn't work on the battlefield. Will it work for five minutes? Yes, it will. Will I, can I yell at you and get you to do something? Yep, sure. You're on monster.com looking for a new job and you get home.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. A man really only gets a full response from the men he leads by something approaching complete fusion of his own identity with the whole that he and they together form. So, think about that. If you're in charge of something and you're a leader, you need to become that thing. You need to become that team. You need to become that goal. I like that one. And you can see when people get possessed, like you look at the modern business leaders today, those are people that, you know, Steve Jobs, he was like obsessed with the product. He was Apple. And that's one of those things that was so beneficial.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Elon Musk, just like he is what he's trying to do.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "Successful military leadership is impossible without the leader's total engagement in the task in hand and to the group committed to his care for its discharge." And what's interesting about that, I was talking to your brother, uh, Jade Charles, not too long ago. Actually, it was pretty long ago and he, and he said something to me and it was like a big revelation to him. And he was very, is a very, he had a good way of saying what I'm just reading about right now. We were talking about something, he was going to a meeting and he was gonna be, you know, talking about something. There was some controversy about where they were gonna go and, and he said that the person that cares the most wins.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  And that's a great statement and it's very true. It's not a hundred percent true, but the, the, the percentage is very high up there. Because if I just care about something so much and I'm gonna drive with it further than you, if I care about this decision more than you do, I got a really good chance of winning. Really good chance of winning.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it kind of seems like that translates into any goal.

• 59:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  The more you care about it, the, the more probability.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess the only, the only place where it becomes problematic is if I, I care about something. You know, at ninety-seven, level ninety-seven, and you care about with an opposite decision, you're also at level ninety-seven.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Oh dang yeah.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Now we got an issue. Now we got a problem, cuz we're both gonna think we're gonna win and we both believe that we need to win.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  You guys are both going the distance.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  Now we got an ego scenario going on and things become problematic. And, and you know, the, where this just becomes stupid is in the, when you hear people having political, I would use an air quotes on that one, political debates around something. You know, and this person totally believes a hundred percent and this person totally cares a hundred percent and they're gonna go nuts on each other and they don't listen to anything that the other person says and you end up with a big disaster on your hands of nonsense.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of those. Whether it be political diet, that's another one.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, I was listening, I was listening to our podcast.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:27Jocko Willink?

  And we, and what were we talking about? We were talking, oh, it's talking about watching people on the news. And that's a classic situation where you know, you've got somebody on a three minute segment.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:36Jocko Willink?

  And one person is, you know, the hardcore in this direction. The other person is the hardcore in the other direction. They both care. They both care a lot.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Neither one of them is going to win. They, they actually, that, that goes the next, that's the next realization. Is that if you're going up against a person that cares as much as you do, you actually have to take a back step and find another way. You have to flank them. Because you're not going to be able to win them by going head to head. They care as equal to you.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to find a new solution.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Otherwise, you know what you'll do? Expend all your ammunition, charging machine gun nests, and you will die.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to do that. If you care as much as me and I don't have the same opinion, I've got to flank you.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of these.

• 1:01:20Jocko Willink?

  Probably going to let you think you just won the argument in order to flank you too, by the way.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. The, um, again, the political religion, diet, uh, how to raise kids, you know, all these are all.

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  What do you, hot button? Is that what you call it?

• 1:01:33Jocko Willink?

  The things that you're not supposed to talk to or talk about around the Thanksgiving dinner table.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  They get heated real quick and you, and a lot of times we're talking about, you know, people or not people, but we talk about how much someone cares about it, right?

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  A lot of times the things that get mixed up is how much you care about it versus how much you care about your stance on it.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  So they're subtly different, but it's a big difference.

• 1:01:56Jocko Willink?

  And rap, but then you've got to put your ego into both those.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:59Jocko Willink?

  Because my ego, I don't want to admit that I'm wrong.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Don't want to do that.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  That means you care about your stance. So when you make about yourself, then, but if you care about the issue, like if I say, if I, if me and you were having a debate, a debate about kettlebell workouts or something. And I like dumbbells, you like kettlebell, but I really care about the issue and the issue is what's the best exercises?

• 1:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  If I truly care about the, what the best exercise is and not about my stance on what the best, I'm going to care about the real answer, rather, whether it's my answer or not. So that's why I think like political, all these other things, they, they have that. And it is, it's just like how you said, it's the ego.

• 1:02:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Natural thing, but they wind up caring more about their stance on it. Then they do the actual issue, you know?

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  For sure. Don't let that happen.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Watch out for that one. So yeah, the 97, not 97, but the, the person who cares the most wins doesn't apply to someone's individual stance on something. It applies to subject.

• 1:02:56Jocko Willink?

  And it also doesn't apply to, you know, a jujitsu match. Cause I might really care about winning. I was thinking about this the other day.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's another thing people say mental. Oh, it's all mental. And here's an example. Alex Honnold, who's a rock climber who just climbed El Capitan in Yosemite, which is 3,000 feet tall. And you, you people say, oh, it's all mental. And, and people say things, you know, if you want something bad enough, you can do it. You put me on that rock. There's a some crux move like 2,000 feet up, 2,000 feet up. That's really hard. And you're smearing, which is this technique in rock climbing where you don't, and I've done it before and I'm, I'm like the lowest white belt. I'm not even a white belt. I'm like, I'd like someone gave me my white belt in rock climbing.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm not, I'm not like a legit, but I know I've tried things. I go to Yosemite and I'll play around on the rocks and everything. But I've tried this thing. It's called smearing and, and you're basically just using the tread or just the bottom of your rock climbing shoes on flat granite. And you can create enough friction that you can, you can move up it. And some people are really good at it. I suck. And you know, you gotta, you got your hand holds your work in two, but you're using your feet. And it's this really weird balance that you have to do because if you push too hard into the rocks, they, I mean, your feet slip off. And if you don't push hard enough, you don't get any lift. So it's this really fine, like balance you've got to have.

• 1:04:26Jocko Willink?

  And apparently there's one move or this one series of moves on this climb that he did. That you, you have to smear. And of course this is very natural for him, but apparently he climbed that section with a rope, like six or seven times just to make sure it felt good and all that stuff. Here's my point. Even if it wasn't a springboard, even if it was just holding on to rocks, right? At 2,000 feet, I would absolutely want really, really badly to hold on to the rocks. I don't have the muscular strength to do it. I mean, the things that he's holding on to are smaller than the first pad of your fingers. That's what he's holding on to. Tiny. And we were doing this the other day at my house, remember?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  That little thing, you actually had had stronger grip than me on the on the climbing board that I have at my house. But I could, I could, couldn't even hold on. Or I could hold on for five seconds and you like had no, did you hold on to the really small one?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's legit. I can't even hold on to that thing. So if I was 2,000 feet up and I really, really, really, really, really, really wanted to do it and I was all mentally in the game, guess what? I'm falling to my death.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:36Jocko Willink?

  Because I don't have the strength to do it. I don't have the physical strength and I need to build it. And okay, you could say, and that that's might be an acceptable answer. Okay, if you really have the mental strength and will to do it, then you'll train. Train super hard.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:51Jocko Willink?

  But at that moment, not gonna help me. I'm falling to my death.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, I think that's not a metaphor, but like a, it's a, it's like a romantic.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, it's a romantic thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want it bad enough, you can do it. No, actually not true.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Cause it applies to the.

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  I want to, take the extreme version. I want to stay alive. I'm 2,000 feet up. I want really badly to stay alive. Doesn't matter. I can't get across that section. I can't, don't have the hand strength to do it. Not happening.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  But they're making a movie about that. I can't wait to see it. About Alex Honnold climbing that rock. Jimmy Chin is the famous kind of photographer guy that they went and documented the whole thing. And apparently, one of the articles said that during that crux moment, Alex Honnold was like, hey, when we get to here, just like back off with the cameras. He, he, he apparently was like, you know, just back off the cameras when I go through, you know, section 94 alpha. Cause

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  I think he thought he didn't need any cameras around real close when he might fall to his death.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  It's that heavy, huh? Like, well, or is it because it might break his concentration? Or both?

• 1:07:01Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I don't know. But that's crazy.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever been to Yosemite?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:07Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, El Capitan is 3,000 feet straight up of granite. It takes people three, four, five days to climb up it. He climbed it in three hours and 45 minutes with a chalk bag and a pair of shoes. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  It's completely ridiculous. 3,000 feet, that's very tall. Echo, you're trying to imagine it? Let me help you.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  No, I'm, you know.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  It's taller than anything you've ever seen. It's taller than a, than a skyscraper in San Diego. It's, it's huge. And he climbed it with no ropes. That means there's no rest. That means there's no break.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and it means there's no mistakes. You can't make a mistake. If you make a mistake, you die.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Jocko Willink?

  Crazy. Very impressive. I don't even know why we're talking about Alex Arnold right now. Oh, because we're talking about the mental will.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Whoever believes it the most.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Whoever believes the most wins.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Oh, cares about it, sorry, not believes.

• 1:08:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And as much as I care about staying alive, I wouldn't be able to pull it off.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think in Jade's situation that it, it did make sense though. You know, because you're, you know.

• 1:08:14Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm actually saying it does make sense.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  It does make sense. And that's why I was able to do a lot of stuff that I've been able to do in my career.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:21Jocko Willink?

  When I was in the military, a lot of the stuff that I was able to get done, I was able to get done because I cared about it more than anybody else.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Like, you think you're gonna, you know, you think you're gonna outperform my task unit? I care about this so much. I don't care. I, I care about this so much, you're not gonna be able to compete with me.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Jocko Willink?

  Because you might think, oh, I'll get there at 5 o'clock in the morning. I've been there for an hour. You might think I'm gonna have my guys drill this 10 times. I'm gonna have my guys drill it 20 times. I care about this too much for you to win. You can't beat me. You can't beat me. It's not gonna happen. I care about this too much. Not in a bad way. Not in a selfish way. I care about this. I love this.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:01Jocko Willink?

  This is everything to me. You know how you have other things going on and you got your wife and you got your family and you got this other thing going on in your life and you got goals that you want. I don't care about any of those things. This is all I care about. So therefore you can't compete with me. And that's pretty cool. It's a cool place to be.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Get overseas. People are thinking about all these other things. No, you don't care about anything. I don't care about anything else. This is the only thing I care about.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  So it ends up getting boiled down to just not stopping, right? Not, not quitting, not giving up.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that definitely plays a role. That definitely plays a role. And of course, there's gotta be balance. Because if, let's say I don't care about, let's say, you know, my, my focus is a hundred percent my SEAL Task Unit. But then I forget about the fact that we're working with our other army units. And the only thing I care about is my unit. Well, no, actually I need to care about the mission more, right? I need to care about our strategic, where we're going strategically. Because otherwise I'm thinking, oh, I just want to get my guys taken care of. I just want to get my guys more work. I just want to get, no. Actually, I, I do, what care, what trumps my care for the task unit? Was care for the mission and what we're trying to accomplish. Now luckily, those two things are completely aligned. So there was never any time where I was thinking, oh, should I do this to benefit the task unit or benefit the mission? No, no.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  If it benefited the mission, it benefited the task unit. If it benefited the task unit, it benefited the mission, period. So I care about those things, you're gonna have a hard time competing with me. And luckily, in Ramadi, there wasn't any competition. We were all working together. That's what was so amazing about it.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Jocko Willink?

  Was Army, Marine Corps, us, everyone was just working together to accomplish missions. Cause that's what you get. When you get a nasty battlefield, you get people working together.

• 1:10:43Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  Another piece. This is a guy named General

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  Monsell. War is preeminently the art of the man who dares to take the risk, of the man who thinks deeply and clearly of the man who, when accident intervenes, is not thereby cast down, but changes his plans and disposition with the readiness of a resolute and reflective mind, which so far as is possible, has foreseen and provided against difficulties. There you go. That's what we're talking about. Oh, accident intervenes? Cool. Good.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm not cast down. Change plans. Adapt. Back to the book. No, now no man can inspire confidence in others who is not confident in himself, and self-confidence comes from knowledge. A thorough understanding of modern weapons and organization, tactics and the details of administration affecting all those under his command must therefore be acquired by every leader. He must show his troops that he can plan soundly, lead resolutely, and deal promptly and effectively with the unexpected. In addition, to gain full confidence of his troops, a leader must have their personal friendship and trust.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  I like that. Again, I've, there was a, there was a SEAL officer that once was briefing guys and saying, if, if your guys, if you're, if your people like you, they, then they, uh, you're not doing a good job. And not true. He's actually saying they need your trust and personal friendship and trust.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Weren't you saying something like that, that even that, you can't push that too far?

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Well, of course. Yeah. You gotta have balance. Dichotomy of leadership. You can't be such close friends that you're choosing, that you're putting one person as more important than the mission or the team. That's the dichotomy of leadership.

• 1:12:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now he puts together this list, which, yeah, we're feeling pretty good about this one. A short list to leadership given as follows. Perfect your military knowledge, study the use of weapons, their tactical handing, the enemy's character and methods, and way to make use of ground. So I don't care what job you're in, apply those, right? Know your tools, know the enemy, know your competitor. Next, study the men under your command, know them well, and be known to them. Gain their confidence by your knowledge, energy, and skill, and by your interest in their welfare. Always be cheerful with them, however you may feel. Teach yourself to think out reasoned appreciations,

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  leading to clever but uncomplicated plans, quickly and unhurriedly. So there you go. Keep things simple, know your people, get the... I like says, "Know your people, get them to know you too." That's important. Next, study methods of deception and make full use of them. Always aim at misleading the enemy, always seek surprise. Keep your object clearly before you. Concentrate your efforts and resources at the decisive point. Always think well ahead.

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  Prioritize and execute.

• 1:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Work out the best methods of control in different tactical situations, practice them constantly.

• 1:14:24Jocko Willink?

  Study the situation carefully, don't waste any time. Make up your mind and stick to it. Get out your orders quickly. Make certain that everyone clearly knows what you intend to be done. Commander's intent. Maintain the initiative. Make opportunities and seize them at once. I like that, "Make opportunities." Boy, do I like that. Don't wait for them to come. Be prepared to take risks, but don't be foolhardy.

• 1:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Know your commander's intention and act in accordance with it. Don't wait for orders. Inaction is always wrong.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. This is just reiterating things that I talk about all the time.

• 1:15:11Jocko Willink?

  Never take counsel of your fears. Think of the enemy's difficulties and how you can take advantage of them. Remember that it is willpower that wins. Oh, he's, he's going off and we're not talking about caring, he's talking about will. Which will goes a long way. Never relax your efforts until victory is won.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Attend to the comfort of the troops before you think of your own. This is all just phenomenal stuff. Be loyal to your superiors and your subordinates. Express your views clearly and frankly, but when a decision has been reached, fully support it. And stop all criticism.

• 1:15:53Jocko Willink?

  Never take shelter behind others. When things for which you are responsible have gone wrong.

• 1:16:01Jocko Willink?

  Take some ownership.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I like this one. Refrain from jealousy, resentment, and self-seeking.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Be tactful. Never make friction. Be thoughtful and considerate, but maintain firm discipline. Think about how bad, just think about the dichotomy of that. Be thoughtful and considerate, but maintain firm discipline.

• 1:16:28Jocko Willink?

  Never order troops to do what you are not prepared to do yourself.

• 1:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Never give an unnecessary order. That's a good one. Think about that one. Never give an unnecessary order. And I'll tell you why I like that one. Is because if you're doing a good job as a leader, orders should barely even be necessary. They should barely even be necessary. I talked about this with Leif the other day. I, I mean, I'm sure we could go back through, you know, the history of tasking a bruiser. But as we, we were having a conversation, we were working with a company, I don't think I ever gave an order. To either one of my two platoon commanders. Either Leif or the Delta Platoon Commander.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I ever said. This is what you're gonna do. That's an order. Like you see in the movies, right?

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  That's what I was gonna ask. Do they say that? Do they ever say that? Does anyone ever say that? That's an order?

• 1:17:28Jocko Willink?

  If you, yes, it can be said. I'm trying to think, I'm sure it's been, I, I, I think it's been said to me before.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  No kidding.

• 1:17:35Jocko Willink?

  More like in, like not administrative situation. Actually, I don't know if anyone's ever said it to me before. Like, that's an order. I don't know if, I, I'm trying to think of, there's been some situation where someone said to me like, hey, basically like you've pushed far enough, Jocko. Stand down. Like I've gotten one of those before. Like, hey, we get it, Jocko. You care about this a lot. It's not happening. Stand down. I've gotten some, I especially got those when I was a little younger. Like when I was a young enlisted guy, just be driving with an ID. I'd just be wanting to crush it. And, and people would be kinda saying, hey, well, no, we can't. And I'd be like, no, why can't, why can't we? Why want, why want, why won't we do this? We need to do this. This is the smart thing to do. You know what's the right thing to do. And I would just eventually get like the little, hey, stand down.

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  We're not doing it. Okay. You know what I'm gonna do? Become an officer and I won't have to listen to you anymore. So, yeah, I've got, I think I've gotten a couple stand downs in my time.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Stand down, that's an order. Cause yeah, that's an order that, when you think about, or anyway, when I think about it, it really does seem like a movie line.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the thing is, that means that you have not done a good job as a leader. If I have to say, that's an order, that means I haven't done as good a job as a leader. That means you don't understand the mission, you don't understand the intent, you don't understand, I haven't conveyed it to you properly. And the only way I can get you to listen is by saying, that's an order.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, pulling rank.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pulling rank on you, that's not a good, not a good situation. Back to the book, never overlook failure to carry one out. So it's never given unnecessary order, never overlook failure to carry one out. Some people will have to chime in with their opinions on that one. Never overlook failure to carry one out.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sure on that one.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  What does that mean to carry one out?

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying. I don't know. It says, it says, "Never order troops to do what you're not prepared to do yourself. Never give an unnecessary order. Never overlook failure to carry one out."

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  To carry out an order?

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to carry one out. Never overlook failure to carry one out. I'm not sure what he means by that. I'm sure some people will give us some opinions on that one.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  On the Facebook you and I release. "Keep fit yourself and make certain that your men do too. Keep your own nerves under control and study your men's."

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  Good. For, like, when you want to comment, if you're listening and you want to comment, you have an opinion on that one, put it on the Facebook post so it can follow the conversation, as opposed to Twitter, which is 140 characters. You know what I mean?

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:18Jocko Willink?

  It's easier to see it on Facebook when there's a legit question or someone has some legit big feedback. If you put it on the thread for podcast number 81, when I post it, that's the place to put in there in their replies.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:32Jocko Willink?

  When I can, like, converse back on that subject without having to go through 17,000 tweets.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and then go back and forth and just get replied to him, but not him.

• 1:20:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's all laid out on Facebook, so it's a good place to have those little conversations. Twitter, we have different kinds of conversations.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:20:51Jocko Willink?

  Last of all, remember that success in war depends more than anything else on the will to win.

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Again, now we got Monty saying morale's the most important. We got Jocko saying leadership is the most important. And you got Brigadier General Monsell saying

• 1:21:12Jocko Willink?

  that the will to win is the most important. I'm not going to actually argue with either one of these guys.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Jocko Willink?

  These guys are all, uh, got all kinds of experience, but much more intense than mine.

• 1:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of intense experience more than mine, there's a guy, a pseudonym, meaning a fake name, Basilisk. And the guy wrote something called Talks on Leadership and the guy's actual name was Alfred Byrne. And he was a World War I and World War II veteran. And he was a military historian and he's got a little section in here called being straight. There is one trait in the character of a leader that above all things really counts. And it perhaps counts in war even more than in peace, being straight.

• 1:22:08Jocko Willink?

  No amount of ability, knowledge, or cunning can ever make up for not being straight. Once those under him find out that a commander is absolutely straight in all his dealings with them and free from the slightest trait of self-interest, other than the self-interest of which we are all guilty when striving for victory of causes we believe to be right, they will love him as their leader, trust him, work for him, follow him, and should the occasion arise, die for him. With the fundamental ability of the British soldier, which comes to the surface when things are at their worst.

• 1:22:47Jocko Willink?

  So, being straight with your people, very important, very important. In fact, perhaps his most important, above all. So now we got another factor that's the most important thing.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, I'm gonna hear a little on leadership from Field Marshal Lord Herring. Once again, World War I and World War II veteran.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  He also fought in the Second Battle of Alamein.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  He was wounded, lost some fingers, recovered, got back to the fight.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  So he says about leadership here, "There are some people who believe that leadership is something which is inborn or which you acquire automatically at a public school. But neither of those things are true. There are certain fundamental qualities which affect leadership and which depend to a very large extent on upbringing and the moral and spiritual values which you can learn, which you learn in your family and in your environment as a young man. But there is no special way, nor is there any special caste or class which has the prerogative of leadership.

• 1:24:02Jocko Willink?

  There are many forms of leadership. Political parties have their leaders, every big organization in industry or commerce all have their leaders. And at the other end of the scale, so do dance bands and so do gangs of thieves and smugglers. There are many qualities that apply equally to every type of leader, but you and I are concerned with one particular type of leadership. To my mind, the highest type of all, and that is leadership on the battlefield. And I believe it to be the highest type because it has to be exercised under conditions of great difficulty and considerable danger. I would like to be quite, I would like you to be quite clear about the conditions under which you will have to exercise leadership.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  You will frequently be tired. You may also be cold and wet and hungry and thirsty. You may be dripping with sweat or you may be freezing with cold. You won't know precisely what is going on. You won't know exactly where the enemy is. You certainly won't know what he is going to do or what his capabilities are of doing anything.

• 1:25:11Jocko Willink?

  You may not know where your own people are or what they are going to do. To put it briefly, you've got to be able to exercise leadership in conditions of fatigue and fear, uncertainty and ignorance, and often in isolation. That is what makes it extremely difficult. And that is why leadership on the battlefield calls, in my view, for the highest qualities.

• 1:25:39Jocko Willink?

  Many qualities are required in a leader. Different people have different views about which are more important. In my opinion, there are five outstanding. Mental and physical, moral and spiritual qualities without which you cannot hope to be successful and a good leader on the battlefield. The first of those qualities is a mental and physical one, and that is fitness. Absolute fitness of mind and body.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  So. Make sure you're getting your morning physical training in.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  Physical fitness, mental fitness. Next, then I would say you've got to have complete integrity. You've got to be honest, not only with yourselves, but with the men you lead and the people with whom you work. And honesty and integrity are things that you cannot compromise with. You cannot alter. If you do, you will lose confidence and you will not be able to lead. You must have complete integrity.

• 1:26:45Jocko Willink?

  So. That's the same thing as being straight.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Not after that. Not in any, next, sorry, next after that, not in any order of priority. But this is how I have put them down deep in my mind. There is an enduring courage. Pretty well, everyone can be brave for a few minutes. Most of us can, if we steel ourselves to it, take one pledge or make one decision or incur one risk. But the sort of courage you must have to lead on the battlefield is an enduring courage. And one that you will go, that will go on when other people falter. One that will enable you to do what you know to be right irrespective of the danger or the difficulty. Contrary, often contrary to the advice of well-meaning friends.

• 1:27:38Jocko Willink?

  So, gotta have courage. Next, then you must have daring initiative. Initiative means doing right away what you might if you had time, think of doing a few minutes later. I like this. If you wait for things to happen to you, they will happen, alright? And here, I am quoting the words of my predecessor also spoken here. "They will happen to you, but they won't be what you like, and they certainly won't bring you success." Initiative means seeing at once and very quickly what needs to be done, making up your mind to do it,

• 1:28:21Jocko Willink?

  and then seeing it through to the bitter end. So, I love that one. If you wait for things to happen to you, they certainly will. A little bit more on willpower here. Then you must have undaunted willpower. The willpower is the motive power. It is what enables you to make yourself fit in mind and body, to produce in you, in your heart, the courage, the enduring courage that I spoke of, to give you the courage to do your duty and to make the sacrifice that may be called from you. It is the willpower that forces you to take the initiative, to make the plan, to do what is required,

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  to see it through, and that willpower must be undaunted. It must never allow itself to be overcome or subdued. Perhaps the finest example living today of the power and influence for good of man with undaunted willpower is our Prime Minister. In one of the critical periods of the last war, he spoke certain words, I am going to quote you now. He said, "All the great struggles in history have been won by superior willpower, resting victory in the teeth of odds or upon the narrowest of margins." It is the willpower that is superior that can rest victory in the teeth of odds.

• 1:29:49Jocko Willink?

  That is the type of willpower that has got to be developed in a leader on the battlefield.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  Mobilize your will.

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, he talks about some other qualities. He talks about knowledge. He talks about judgment. He talks about team spirit, saying because you cannot get success on the battlefield by yourself, you've got to work with other people. So obviously, as a leader, you have to have that spirit of teamwork.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  And closing out, he says, there's one other thing I would like to say to you.

• 1:30:35Jocko Willink?

  As British officers, you will never have all you want, all you need. You'll be short of this, or that, or the other. Sometimes you will be short of men. Other times, your equipments or weapons may not be as good as you think they ought to be, nor will you have as many as you would like. You may be short of ammunition. You may also be short of food and water, or other necessary things. When these circumstances arise, as they do often throughout your service, both in peace and war, there's only one motto, and that is to make certain that you do the very best you can with what you've got. Don't bellyache about what you have not got,

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  but get on and make certain you do your utmost with what you have got.

• 1:31:23Jocko Willink?

  Now, to sum up what I've tried to say this afternoon, I would like to put it like this. First, keep fit, absolutely fit. Then, be honest, honest with yourselves and honest with those with whom you work. Then, have courage and make it an enduring courage. Next, be bold, be daring, and when there is a choice, take the bold and daring course. Make the very most of what you have got, and never, never, never give in.

• 1:31:58Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:32:02Jocko Willink?

  Do what you can with what you've got.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  Until you really liked that one.

• 1:32:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sometimes it starts hitting me.

• 1:32:13Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next, there's a chapter in this book, which is called Discipline, which makes me very happy. And again, I tried to censor myself from not just doing the entire chapter. Obviously, you can buy this book if you want to see the whole thing. There's some great points. This first one is from Field Marshal Earl Wayvell, who was in the Boer Wars and he was in World War I and in World War II, lost his left eye in the Battle of Ypres. So we're talking a warrior here that was, went back for service.

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  Here's what he said about discipline. Discipline is teaching which makes a man do something which he would not unless he had learnt that it was the right, the proper and the expedient thing to do. At its best, it is instilled and maintained by pride in one's self, in one's unit, in one's profession. Only at its worst, by fear of punishment. So he's talking, we want self-discipline. We don't want imposed discipline. That's what he's saying. You don't want, I don't want you doing this because you're scared of me. If you don't do what I tell you, I'm going to beat you. That's not what I want. I want you saying, I'm going to do this because I want to do it.

• 1:33:42Jocko Willink?

  Here's a little something from Monty here, and we're going to get some disagreements going. I'm going to disagree with Monty. Sorry, Monty. Wish you were here to defend yourself.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, on discipline, Monty. "The basis of training must be self-discipline." Cool. "A man must learn to be the master of himself and to keep in subjection the bad qualities in his makeup." I love that. "Self-discipline can be developed by training in such things as conception of duty, self-control, self-respect, endurance, and so on." "We then have collective discipline, and there's no doubt that the initial training in this subject is best carried out by drill." "Men must be taught instinctively to obey orders, whatever they are."

• 1:34:35Jocko Willink?

  "I do not believe men wilt fight voluntarily for a cause without the iron bonds of discipline."

• 1:34:43Jocko Willink?

  "The best form of discipline is subordination of self for the benefit of the community." So, I'm gonna make some comments on those. Number one, when you're saying that you should obey orders regardless of what they are, don't agree. I don't agree with that. I want my men to question my orders. I want them to, if I'm telling them to do something that they don't think is smart, I want them to question me. I want them to come up with then a better solution. That's how we're gonna win.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Even the moral thing too, right?

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Like, to obey orders regardless?

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, if they're immoral, oh for sure, for sure. "I want my whole team to be, hey, if this is the wrong thing to do, we shouldn't be doing it."

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Next, the other one he says here is, he says that people won't fight for a cause without the iron bonds of discipline. I don't believe that that's true either. And I think if you look at American history, guys, we didn't have this strict level. Of course, there's discipline, of course, in the military. There's imposed discipline in the military. But the things that people and all soldiers have accomplished without strict imposed discipline is, they've given their lives over and over and over, thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of cases where men have given their lives, not because, not because I said, or because the leader said, "Go and charge this machine gun nest."

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's not why they did it. They did it because they believed in the cause.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  So I don't agree with that one. I think that men will fight voluntarily for a cause. Without the iron bonds of discipline, and you know when I think they do it? I think they do it when that cause is freedom.

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  So when the cause is freedom, I believe men will fight without the bonds of discipline over them.

• 1:36:43Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  this idea that the best form of discipline is the subordination of self for the benefit of the community, I don't actually agree with that one either. I think the best form of discipline is when there is alignment in the discipline.

• 1:37:02Jocko Willink?

  The discipline for the team and the individual bring success and survival and freedom. And when those things are aligned, that's when I think you get the finest form of discipline. Now, he recovers a little bit from my criticism here.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  And of course, to everyone that is wondering why I'm sort of making fun of myself, it's pretty embarrassing to be sitting here and disagreeing with a guy like Monty. So please don't take me the wrong way.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  Just giving my opinion here, and I'm in no way comparing my military knowledge with General Montgomery.

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  And he does say this, "The basis of all discipline is self-discipline."

• 1:37:55Jocko Willink?

  Which, this is beautiful, and I agree with that 100%. "This self-discipline may come from within a person or may be imposed upon him from without." Don't agree. That'll only last a little while. Whatever its source, it involves the idea of self-control and self-restraint. That is true.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  But there is, I think it's called situational discipline, I think, or

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  What is that?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  I could, I could have the expression wrong, but I think it is situational, just meaning

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  like if you're in a certain situation, you'll have, you'll be really self-disciplined, but once you get out, you're not, you know, like, um, I don't know, you ever, you ever watched?

• 1:38:44Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  You ever watched the big, there's a show called The Biggest Loser?

• 1:38:48Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  So

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  It's a bunch of overweight people.

• 1:38:51Jocko Willink?

  People that are having weight problems, they go on a show, they get fed certain things made to work out and they lose a bunch of weight. And then they win the program and then when they go back home and they're not around that imposed discipline.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:01Jocko Willink?

  They lose it. Right. That's my point.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:03Jocko Willink?

  My point is that, that imposed discipline, it works while you have the impos- imposer.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:11Jocko Willink?

  They're watching you.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:13Jocko Willink?

  What I would prefer is to have someone that makes a change in their mindset and develops self-discipline.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  Now, sometimes you can get that from imposed discipline and you realize, like, you get shown the freedom that a discipline gives you and then you carry on with it. Like a lot of people that listen to the podcast and they've done incredible things with their lives because we weren't there to impose discipline on them, but they recognize themselves. Maybe they said, okay, you know what, I'm gonna get up for the next two weeks. I'm gonna get up early, I'm gonna work out and I'm gonna eat healthy. Two weeks go by, they've lost a little bit of body fat, they've gained a little bit of muscle and they feel good.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden they realize the benefits of discipline. And so they change their mindset and they become more disciplined human beings.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Jocko Willink?

  That's what I like.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  What I don't like is I'll run a boot camp on you and yell at you and scream. And that's another thing, people want me to yell and scream. I get that. I think once or twice a day, someone will say, you need to make an alarm clock where you yell and tell us, tell me to get out of bed.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:14Jocko Willink?

  And I say good psychological warfare, but I'm not gonna yell in psychological warfare because yelling isn't an effective tool compared to Actually speaking to someone and letting them understand why it's important.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:26Jocko Willink?

  That's the preferred tool. Occasionally, do you gotta yell at people? Occasionally, yes, you do. Occasionally. Not very often, though.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty rare, huh? But yeah, the, yeah, you're right, huh, with that situational discipline, because even I-

• 1:40:38Jocko Willink?

  Think about what's worse. Somebody yelling at you, or someone whispering at you? It's actually worse, isn't it?

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a lot of ways.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to me, it's worse.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  Yelling and screaming, it just doesn't-

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  No, and it really doesn't really matter what they're saying either, if you choose yelling or whispering, because like, you know, even if they're telling you a normal thing, like, "Hey, um, here, this is what I want from the store. I want avocados, tomatoes, and, you know, some wine." But what if I whisper it to you?

• 1:41:06Jocko Willink?

  "Hey, hey, Jocko, hey, come here, bro." That might freak me out, actually.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  "Give me, give me some avocado." Yeah, yeah, so it did-

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  Not sure about that example.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. No, no, you get that, that's the point. Doesn't really matter what they're saying, whispering versus yelling.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, definitely has a different psychological effect, for sure. Because that definitely freaks me out. You being, "Hey, Jocko, can you pick up a bottle of wine for us?" No, actually, I can. I'm leaving.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the wine kind of makes it extra awkward, for sure.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  All right, so now we get into another part on discipline right here, and this is Sir John Fortescue. Now, I want you to pay attention to this one, because then we start going sideways. "I have in my mind rather those excellent but generally unthinking persons who shrink with horror from the idea of a man's abdicating his civil rights. What, they say, a man must obey even an unjust command under pain it may be of death? It is monstrous! For purposes of civil life, it might be monstrous, but not for the purposes in of implicit obedience, which is the thing that matters in the army.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Let there be justice as far as possible by all means, but as a general principle, it is better for an army that an injustice should be done than that an order should be disobeyed. This, however, is an argument that cannot appeal to our, to our imaginary objector because he has read no military history."

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  That's just very disturbing, this whole thing, and it's really doesn't comply with anything that I say. Which is, I want you to question orders, and if they're not good orders, you shouldn't obey them. And he's saying, no, no, no. It's better to do something unjust, as long as you're obeying orders. And I did a little bit of research about John Fortescue. And, you know, obviously, I don't agree with this. And actually, in the new version of the book, he, the, the guy that writes the foreword to the new version of this specifically calls out John Fortescue and says, we removed him. The him. He's gone from the book. Dang. And what I found out about him was, yes, he was in the army. He was a major in the army.

• 1:43:33Jocko Willink?

  But I don't think he was in any combat. And what I do know is that he was the royal librarian from nineteen oh five until nineteen twenty-six, and he died in nineteen twenty-three. So he didn't go to World War One. All these other guys are World War One, World War Two veterans. He was the, the royal librarian. And it's interesting, when he says, because he has read no military, he doesn't say, because he's never been in combat before. He says, he's read, that, the person that would object to this has never read military history. Well. Okay, so he's going with the theory. Yeah, he's going with the theory. Yeah. And, and if you want to take this and stretch it out more broadly,

• 1:44:13Jocko Willink?

  this attitude, you know, I hate World War One. I hate World War One, because it was so based on obedience. And you are gonna charge, we are gonna charge this trench, all seven thousand of us are gonna charge tomorrow morning at zero six thirty. We're gonna go over the top, we're gonna get mowed down by machine guns, and then, then people are gonna follow us and do the same thing. And they, the guys were so obedient and brave and just selfless to do that. But this attitude is what made that war so devastating, because no one said, hey, wait a second. This doesn't seem smart to me.

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  I just watched, you know, a two, three, four battalions, or two, three, four regiments get mowed down. And now you're telling me I'm gonna do the same thing tomorrow with my men. No, I want you to question my orders. I want you to say no. If I'm making you do something that doesn't make sense, I want you to say no. And if I can't explain it to you in a logical way, then I should rethink what I'm saying to you.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  So, Mr. John Fortescue, we're gonna have to say that we've kinda changed our opinion on obedience. And there are more important things than obedience in a team, in a military team, and in the business world.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  Here's another piece from, this is going back to General William Slim. "Any army without discipline is no more than a mob, alternating between frightened sheep and beasts of prey. Discipline, as the British soldier has demonstrated in peace and war, is the old Christian virtue of unselfishness, of standing by your neighbor, your comrade. It is the sacrifice of a man's comfort, inclination, safety, even life for others, for something greater than himself. It is the refusal to be the weak link in the chain that snaps under strain." And this is a great little story here, one paragraph. Back to the book, "Once",

• 1:46:33Jocko Willink?

  "From the safety of a well-dug command post, I looked down on a battery of artillery in action in the African bush. It was firing at five rounds per gun per minute. And idly, I timed the nearest gun. In that area, the enemy, unfortunately, had complete local air supremacy and guns, unless engaged in some vital task, were ordered to remain silent whenever hostile aircraft appeared. Gradually dominating all other sounds came the dull drone of bombers, flying low, but the guns went on firing, five rounds per gun per minute, for they were supporting an infantry attack."

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  Cover move by the way.

• 1:47:24Jocko Willink?

  The first stick of bombs fell around the gun I was watching. Some of its crew were hit. The dry brush roared into flame, which spread instantly to the camouflage nets over the gun.

• 1:47:41Jocko Willink?

  It vanished from my sight in smoke and flame. Yet from the very midst of that inferno, at the exact intervals came the flash and thud of the firing gun. Five rounds per minute, per gun.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Never a falter, never a second out.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  No weak link there. The discipline held.

• 1:48:15Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty awesome.

• 1:48:21Jocko Willink?

  Sections here, talking about duty and service and we're gonna first start with Colonel George Henderson, a British officer

• 1:48:32Jocko Willink?

  who fought in Egypt and at the Battle of Kassassin. And he fought in the Boer Wars as well. And he talks about Waterloo. Here we go. Back to the book. "No incident is more familiar in our military history than the stubborn resistance of the British line at Waterloo. Through the long hours of the midsummer day, silent and immovable squares and squadrons stood in the trampled corn, harassed by an almost incessant fire of cannon and musketry, to which they were forbidden to make reply.

• 1:49:13Jocko Willink?

  Not a moment but heard some cry of agony. Not a moment but some comrade fell headlong into the furrows. Yet as bullets of the skirmishers hailed around them and the great shot tore through the tight-packed ranks, the word was passed quietly.

• 1:49:37Jocko Willink?

  Close in on the center men. And as the sun neared its setting, the regiments, still shoulder to shoulder, stood fast upon the ground they had held at noon."

• 1:49:51Jocko Willink?

  The spectacle is characteristic. In good fortune and in ill, it is rare indeed that a British regiment does not hold together. And this indestructible cohesion, best of all qualities that an armed body can possess, is based not merely on hereditary resolution, but on mutual confidence and mutual respect. The man in the ranks has implicit faith in his officer. The officer and almost unbounded belief in the valor and discipline of his men.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  And that, I've talked about this and people want to know what makes the SEAL teams do well. The thing that makes the SEAL teams do well is the bond that holds them together. And that bond is so strong that it's unbreakable. And that's why SEALs do well in combat. Cause we have a bond that is unbreakable, stronger than anything that's going to get thrown at us. The brotherhood is going to stand. And I'm going to close this book out with two more quotes. And speaking of Waterloo, this one is from Wellington. And this is a very simple quote.

• 1:51:18Jocko Willink?

  He said, "My rule was always to do the business of the day in the day." And I, I was reading this book the other day and I actually posted something about it. But I, I was, I didn't realize I was thinking about this. But we have a saying in the SEAL teams. Plan your dive and dive your plan, is the saying. So when you're, when you're doing a combat swimmer attack, which is when you're on a rebreather and you're diving underwater. And if you've never dove before, if you don't understand this, it's very hard to comprehend what combat swimmer is like. But I'll give you a real quick brief.

• 1:51:59Jocko Willink?

  When you're doing a combat dive on a rebreather, you basically can't see anything. It's nighttime. You're down at.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  10, 12, 15 feet underwater. It's black. You can't see anything. There's no like fish swimming around, there's no sea life to look at, there's no coral reef. It's black, you can't see anything. The only thing you can actually see is something called an attack board. Which an attack board, sounds really cool, but let me tell you what it is. It's a piece of plastic, it used to be wood, that has on it a depth gauge, a compass, and a watch to time. And so you put little tiny chem lights, little glowing chem lights, and you actually tape them up so that they're barely emitting any light at all.

• 1:52:52Jocko Willink?

  And you put one by the stopwatch, one by the compass, and one by the depth gauge. And when you're underwater, so you have those things, they're basically strapped on to this board that you hold.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, it's like, like about the size of a piece of paper, right, eight and a half by 11 piece of paper. That's about how big this board is, and on it, you've got your depth gauge, your compass, and your stopwatch. And you can barely see them, they're glowing very faintly. And when you're underwater, that's all you can see. It's just that. You can't see anything else. Occasionally, you'll get like some weird abstract light from the moon or something. But even that's rare, because you're down underwater. And if you've ever been in water with low visibility, sometimes that, sometimes it's actually hard to see the attack board that's two feet in front of your face. So, then what you're doing is you're looking at that compass, you're looking at that depth gauge, and you're looking at the stopwatch, and you have pre-planned

• 1:53:49Jocko Willink?

  legs that you're going on. You're gonna go this long, this, this bearing, this long, this depth for this time. And when I say, so you're kicking, looking at this board for an hour and 17 minutes. Then you're gonna make a 90-degree turn, and you're gonna go for another 48 minutes. And then you're gonna make a right turn for 12 minutes, and you're gonna hit your target, then you're gonna turn around and do some other route back out. As long as you can stay underwater, you stay underwater, then eventually you run out of oxygen, you come to the surface, and you swim the rest of the way to your extract.

• 1:54:25Jocko Willink?

  Any visions of the glory and the fun of being a SEAL? This is, it's not. It's work. And it's hard work and you have to concentrate the whole time and you gotta make sure you don't go too shallow or too deep. If you go too shallow, you'll be seen. If you go too deep, you're, go off the, the dive tables that you're allowed to be on oxygen for. So you gotta focus the whole time. And by the way, you're in a pair and your buddy that's with you, he's even more miserable than you are because he has no idea what's going on. He's just trying to keep up with you because for some reason, the way you dive, the way you put your body when you have the tack board, you can swim a little bit faster than the guy that's looking around and making sure that you're not gonna hit anything and make sure you're not.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  So there's only one tack board per pair?

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  There's a one attack board per pair. Sometimes we would make two, we'd make a smaller attack board just because it was so much more efficient to fly with them, but you can't fly. If you're the buddy, you're, you can't be just looking at the attack board. You have to look around.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  Attack board?

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  The attack board. That's what we call the attack board. So with all that, the reason I'm telling you all this is that when you're underwater,

• 1:55:37Jocko Willink?

  it's really easy to get confused and turn around and sometimes you go over big pieces of metal that are in the water and your compass starts to like wander around. And you, you can't communicate with your buddy. Move. That's what it sounds like. You've got, so we, you know, we have squeeze signals and sometimes we'd carry

• 1:55:55Jocko Willink?

  grease pens to write, but it's never, there's no real effective way to communicate underwater. So you're just in this dark, just cold, blind situation for three, two, three, four hours at a time. And the saying is that we have is plan your dive and dive your plan. Because if you and I go underwater and then we start trying to adjust things while we're underwater and we just, we think we're gonna do something different. Once we go, first of all, you and I are gonna be thinking two different things and it's gonna be a disaster. So we, we plan our dive and dive our plan. And that's reminded me of this statement. Do the business of the day in the day.

• 1:56:39Jocko Willink?

  Right? Get done what you say you're gonna get done. Do it. And how simple is that? And it's like dive your plan. And what I said the other day, I said,

• 1:56:49Jocko Willink?

  Plan what you're gonna do and then do what you planned. That's real simple. And, and I said, think of how far you're gonna, think of where you will be in two weeks. If every day you plan what you're gonna do and then you do what you planned.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:03Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's amazing.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems so sad.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  That, that was what we were talking about a few weeks ago where

• 1:57:12Speaker 01

  it's like distractions. That's the thing, you know, I was seeing there's like just industries of distractions.

• 1:57:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  You never wake up.

• 1:57:19Jocko Willink?

  I was explaining to my eight-year-old daughter the other day that they designed, cause she was playing a game on iPad.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  I said, oh, what are you learning from that? And she said, what do you mean? I said, oh, are you learning anything from that? And she said, well, I, I, you have to get these rings. And I said, oh, so you're not learning anything from that? And she said, I don't, I don't, I said, you know what they do? They make that game to make you wanna play it more.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  There's no, there's no end to the game too, by the way.

• 1:57:47Jocko Willink?

  They just want you to play that game, keep clicking on that. That's

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:50Jocko Willink?

  There, it look, you know, and of course I'm just being a total jerk. I'm like,

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  Look at how, look at how well it works. Look at you.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  See, you can't put it down.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  Look at you, you, you, look at you holding on to this thing. And she doesn't fall for this anymore. When she was younger, I used to go up and, and press her head. As if her head was getting softer and I'd look at her like, oh man, how long have you been on this for? And she'd say, I don't know. And I'd say, I think if you stop now, your brain might harden back up eventually.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  Probably do the same thing with, with her, uh, her muscles. Like if she's eating like chips or something, too many chips. It's like, oh, your muscle is getting like all soft right now. Hurry up. Like, yeah, she's young, she's four, so it works.

• 1:58:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it still works. But they do, they, they plan these things so that they addict it.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Those iPad ones, they, there's no end.

• 1:58:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, everything is designed that way, right? You, you talk about the Facebook app that shows the little thing that shows.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, you got a message. And this might be the message that I've been waiting for.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Right, variable reward. It might not be. So that's the thing. That's, if you know guaranteed it, what it's gonna be consistently, it's less addictive. It's called variable reward.

• 1:58:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But you, everyone in their mind is thinking this might be,

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:59Jocko Willink?

  This might be the big one.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm getting contacted by. By Tenacious D. They saw my tweet. They're getting back at me. They're gonna come on the podcast.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Who's Tenacious?

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Tenacious D is Jack Black and Kyle Gass.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right. Was that a movie?

• 1:59:14Jocko Willink?

  It's a band.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Okay. From a movie?

• 1:59:19Jocko Willink?

  They have been in a movie, yes. And they have a TV show. Jack Black.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  He's an actor.

• 1:59:24Jocko Willink?

  No. That's a second. He's a musician.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Okay, gotcha. School of Rock. That's not a movie.

• 1:59:29Jocko Willink?

  That's a great movie.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Shallow hell, that's not a movie.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  That's Jack Black.

• 1:59:33Jocko Willink?

  No, no, he is an actor, like I said. In addition to being a rock and roller.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Who, okay, gotcha. Hey, man, cool.

• 1:59:40Jocko Willink?

  Why do we just talk about, oh yeah, because I'm thinking, oh, this might be the tweet that I was waiting for from Tenacious D.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  So I gotta check my Twitter forty-seven times a minute.

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  No, not happening.

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 1:59:52Jocko Willink?

  You can't, you don't have a tweet from Tenacious D that's not there. They didn't tweet you.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:58Jocko Willink?

  So don't check your Twitter. Go and do something productive.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, so, and that's when you're already distracted. So, basically, the point was, you know, do your, or plan your day, or do, you know, and do the plan, right? So, because no one planned, like-

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  Plan your day and do what you plan.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  So, no one plans to skip work out.

• 2:00:23Jocko Willink?

  What's really jacked up is if you actually took what you did in a day and you wrote it down and planned it, I bet you could get it done in so much less time. Like, right now, I've got a lot of stuff going on right now. And I'm doing things that normally take me two hours, I'm doing in forty-six minutes. Same quality, by the way. Just getting after it.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00:46Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta put a little suspense date on something and say, it's due here. You gotta get it done. And then you just sit down and make it happen.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  That's what you need to do.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it, it's one of those simple but uneasy, easy things, but this is why. So you would, you put, in a way, you put these kind of parameters on what you're gonna do. And if, like, if, okay, I'm making a plan and I'm sticking to the plan, right? That's what I'm doing. So I plan to do X, Y, Z, X, you know, all these things.

• 2:01:13Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  And if, so basically, right when you say, okay, here's the plan, you outline it, if it's not in the plan, you just don't do it. It's, so- So distractions, no one plans to like, hey, tomorrow, I'm gonna just eat like crap tomorrow. That's the plan. That's never the plan, you know? But if you don't have any plan or nothing, sure, you allow those things to come in. So if you're like, okay, tomorrow, and you're not gonna plan the whole day. You're not gonna plan every meal. You're not gonna, if you did, you'd be real effective.

• 2:01:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you'd stay, you'd stay, you'd stay on locked, right? If you did the meal prep the night before. Like when you go through those phases where you're cooking seven chicken breasts and you're just ready, you got everything laid out.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  Monday, Tuesday, yes.

• 2:01:53Jocko Willink?

  There you go. It's real easy.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  And people do that for a specific reason.

• 2:01:57Jocko Willink?

  And it works.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yeah, exactly right. So, and is it realistic? And really, when you think about it, it kinda is if you're committed to it.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, what's crazy is, is it takes more work upfront. How long does it take to prepare all your meals for the week? And by the way, I don't do this.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:12Jocko Willink?

  But how long, I've done it before. How long does it take to prepare meals? It takes you two hours, two hours and 20 minutes, let's say.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  Same amount of time, by the way.

• 2:02:20Jocko Willink?

  You get done preparing those and you save time in the week, right? Cause now you're not sitting around redeploying your pots and pans, redeploying your stove, setting the, all that other stuff. You actually are gonna save time if you plan your day.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  And then you do your plan.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and think about just if you use that meal prep example where, okay, you don't, typically, we don't plan our, every meal for a week. Typically, we just don't do that. But when you do the meal prep planning situation.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  You're saying we, meaning human beings in general?

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  Everybody, yeah, yeah, yeah. The typical person. So that's a good example. So when you do that, now boom, your meals, an element of your life that typically isn't quote unquote planned, is now planned. So now those parameters are set. So anything outside of those parameters, you just don't really think about as much, you know? And when they kinda enter you, it's real obvious, like, hey, that's not part of this plan. What the hell? You know, it's like, it's more of a red flag. But if you don't plan it, they come in, it's kinda like, whatever, there's no parameters there anyway in my head. So that goes for everything you do. So just like how you're saying, yeah, I have a lot of stuff. So you plan, okay, I'm gonna do this here, do this now, do this at this time, finish it by this time, all this stuff. Parameters are set, so the distractions have way harder time to get in.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  So in everyday life, you can make some ambiguous goal. Hey, I want to eat better. No plan, by the way. Just it's an ambiguous goal. There's no parameters on there. So you take one misstep. You you know, you were at the stop stop light for longer than you expected. Now you're late for this. Now I'm pressed for time. There's the McDonald's right and it it'll just sneak right in. But if you got those parameters in, you'd be at McDonald's. Nope, not part of my plan right now.

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  My plan, I gotta, you know, I gotta execute.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And another thing, if you're gonna plan your day, you should actually plan to have

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  time in there that has nothing in it, right? So you should you should plan to have a half an hour where you're where you're gonna address problems. Right? Okay, so that way a problem is because they're gonna come up.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  You got you gotta have your your free time. And by free, I mean free to

• 2:04:28Jocko Willink?

  go make other things happen and adjust and make things good. But what you shouldn't do is say, because I'll tell you, there's some things that I have a really hard time, like with the podcast. I'll keep preparing the podcast. I'll just keep preparing it.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  You'll fill the time.

• 2:04:42Jocko Willink?

  I know I go beyond that because I there's another story and that ties into something else. And I'm gonna go pull out another book. And by the way, I gotta run the out of time to get it from Amazon. So I'm gonna go to the library. You know what I mean? It's just you go down where I could prepare for a podcast forever and not be ready for it. And so I have to put my own self in check and say, okay, draw the line on this level of depth on this thing. Now I might make a footnote and I've got a cool category now on my computer that's, you know, tangents. Where I where I opened a tangent and I didn't close it on the podcast. So now we're gonna be able to enter them at a different time when when time allows. Because I can get focused on that one subject. So that's pretty cool.

• 2:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:26Jocko Willink?

  But it takes discipline to do that because otherwise I would just go down every rabbit hole that gets opened up. And you take a book like this and there's so many rabbit holes in there, it's almost impossible to stay out of them.

• 2:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  Gets kind of ridiculous.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:39Jocko Willink?

  In a way. So my point is.

• 2:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Plan your day and then execute your plan. If you do that, it's gonna make a huge difference in your life. And what's good, you look up, you look up in a month, two months, three months, the amount of stuff that you've gotten done is ridiculous. And I'll tell you, one of the ways that I do do that myself is I just task myself with I say I'm gonna do things. And then I have to do them. There they are.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  Create that plan.

• 2:06:11Jocko Willink?

  If, let's say with this podcast, a good example, we do this podcast once a week. We've held the line really well on that. If we didn't, if we said, you know what? Let's just put the podcast out when we put it out. Right? If that was the mindset we had from the beginning, we would probably, I'm gonna guess that we would have less than half of the podcasts would have been put out. That's my guess. Cause we would have said, you know what? Hey, I gotta train this week and I gotta miss that. And I haven't read the book that I was gonna read. So, cause right now, bro. Oh, I've got 15 minutes, that little half hour of my schedule where I have nothing, guess what I'm doing in that half an hour? I'm doing 22 minutes worth of reading of a book that's coming up.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm doing. If we didn't have the discipline structure in place, that probably wouldn't be happening.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that probably wouldn't be happening. We'd be going, oh, you know what? Little time went by. Hey, bro. Yeah, let's, let's, let's, let's give this week a miss. It's so much easier.

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  You know what? I was gonna go, gonna hang out today. I don't really wanna do this today. No, we're doing it. Yeah, we, we signed up for it.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  Yep, totally.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  Now, could it get to a point where we say, you know what? Every two weeks, we've mentioned that before. People didn't like that idea.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know who else didn't like that idea?

• 2:07:31Jocko Willink?

  I didn't like that either. You know why? Cause I like that discipline.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:35Jocko Willink?

  Why would, you know why? Cause I'm basically, I'm basically confining myself to doing something productive as opposed to watching YouTube videos.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  Right? About cats. Cause there's some good YouTube videos, right? There's some good YouTube videos, but there's also, a lot of them are not good. And you're not getting anything out of them.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:56Jocko Willink?

  And man, the ones that they rack up for you when you've just got done watching one.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:03Jocko Willink?

  The ones that they rack up for you, oh, every single one of them, what do they rack up? I think they rack up four on top and four on bottom on your little screen.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  And every one of them is, is like a clickbait, right? Every one of them is a clickbait.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  It's one.

• 2:08:15Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy.

• 2:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, they do that, obviously.

• 2:08:19Jocko Willink?

  They're brilliant.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it, it has a lot to do with everything that you've, you've watched.

• 2:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's gonna be, it's, the next video is always just like.

• 2:08:28Jocko Willink?

  It's a must see.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Ninety percent relevant to what you specifically want right there.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  And that is why, that is why, you gotta get angry at the, you know, you know, you have that, uh, you know how you have that, that way that you overcame your anger management, right? But, but you read that it was like, you, you had low self-esteem, that's why you're getting mad? Well, when you get that, when you get that next rack of YouTube videos staring at you.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  You should be getting pissed because you know what they're trying to do.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:58Jocko Willink?

  They're trying to get you to, they're trying to take your time away from you.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:02Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, they're making money from it. When you click that next thing, they're making, they're making money from what you're doing. And so they've, they've set this system up to make you click that thing.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you're a mark is what you are.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're a mark, you're a sucker.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Look at you, falling for it every single time, every single time. That's how I quit drinking too, by the way.

• 2:09:19Jocko Willink?

  That is legit.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  Like, oh, I'm falling for a trick that my brain is playing on me. I ain't falling for that trick.

• 2:09:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm falling for that trick. That, and like I said, it's hard too, because it's mixed in with positive stuff on YouTube. There's some really good quality stuff on YouTube. There's some great knowledge you can gain from YouTube for sure.

• 2:09:39Speaker 01

  And if you're good at justifying things.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that's true too. It's a really scary, uh, but my point is, I don't wanna just sit here and bag on YouTube because it's an incredible source of information.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:09:51Jocko Willink?

  If you keep it informational, but it's real easy to get sideways on that.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:56Jocko Willink?

  And they somehow know, they can attach like watching a street fight to, cause I watch street fights or I watch a, you know, a UFC fight or I'll watch a clip or I'll watch a submission. They know how to drag you in to like those clickbait titles.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  Of.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  The guy fighting the kangaroo.

• 2:10:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man versus kangaroo, unbelievable, right?

• 2:10:20Jocko Willink?

  And of course you're thinking to yourself, okay, well, what would I do if I had to fight a kangaroo?

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  I live in America, man. I'm not fighting any kangaroos, but somehow I gotta click on that video.

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  See what up, yeah.

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Such garbage. So, good job YouTube.

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:10:32Jocko Willink?

  And, I'm not gonna be a sucker over here.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Nope. Don't be a mark.

• 2:10:36Jocko Willink?

  Give yourself a limit.

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, and that goes back to what you're saying.

• 2:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Give yourself like a click limit on those things.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or just set your plan, right? Give yourself those parameters. Bro, you won't, it's, it, even me thinking about it right now, it really, after you kinda explained it there, it really puts it into perspective. And all the things you ever, I mean, you're different than, I think, I think, a lot of people where, sometimes people only make plans if like, they have important stuff, something that's important. I got work stuff, or I gotta, I got this to-do list. There's like, ten things on the list, which actually seems like a pretty big to-do list if you think ten.

• 2:11:11Jocko Willink?

  That's a big one, yeah.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  In one day.

• 2:11:13Jocko Willink?

  Depending on.

• 2:11:13Speaker 01

  You know how many things you do in a day that you can get distracted from?

• 2:11:19Jocko Willink?

  A lot of them.

• 2:11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, more than ten. It's like a lot. And that good, everything, everything from like, the day you wake up, or not the day, but the, the time you wake up, what you eat every single time, by the way. Well, the TV you watch or don't watch, like, it's every, every second of the day, if it had a parameter on it, oh man, you'd be just laser focused on all your goals, instead of these ambiguous, hey, I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, I need to, I don't know, X, Y, Z more.

• 2:11:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I'll tell you another thing, uh, the plan doesn't take that much time to put together.

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and how you said, it's, it'll end up saving you time.

• 2:11:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  It'll end up in one way or another, well.

• 2:12:00Jocko Willink?

  The ten minutes that you spend planning the next day,

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:02Jocko Willink?

  will save you four hours.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:05Jocko Willink?

  You can usually get done, everything you have to get done, in like, half the time.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Jocko Willink?

  Half the time.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  It's crazy. And it's weird too, because, I don't know.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  I mean, there's some busy people out there, I don't wanna make it sound like, there's some, some people that are really busy.

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I.

• 2:12:18Jocko Willink?

  The single mom, she's got two, three kids, she's got two, three jobs.

• 2:12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:25Jocko Willink?

  She doesn't, you know what? She's listening to this conversation going, yeah, no kidding.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no kidding, that's why I've been doing it.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  She ain't watching YouTube, yeah, she's in the game twenty-four, seven.

• 2:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, not, she's in the game twenty, cuz she's, she's sleeping four hours a night.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  Twenty.

• 2:12:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she's keeping it together.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and when you say there's busy, but yeah, there. Two things to that. Yeah, there are busy people.

• 2:12:44Jocko Willink?

  You know what, those people get those, like the single moms or the single dads. They get kinda like what I just said. They are in a situation, they have no choice and they get after it.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 2:12:57Jocko Willink?

  They have no choice and they get after it. They're like, oh, I'm gonna get this done. They got their fam- they're looking at their kid. They're looking at their three-year-old kid. That that three-year-old kid has nothing without that mom. Getting on the grind and going to the the the restaurant.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:13:13Jocko Willink?

  And working as a waitress or whatever, or she's working her job, whatever she's doing.

• 2:13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  She's putting it together.

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  Knows exactly Tuesday, three weeks from now, I'm at four forty-six. She knows where she's gonna be. She knows exactly where. Me, I mean, I don't, come on, you know, compared to the average person, we don't know. And then.

• 2:13:33Jocko Willink?

  Compared to the average person, you definitely don't know. But you're not even like a hundred percent sure what you should be doing in an hour. Cause you know, cruising could interlude at any time and you might just be.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  Cruising is a very ambiguous activity. The, but then go to the other side of the spectrum of busy people, I mean. They're busy because they don't plan enough.

• 2:13:53Jocko Willink?

  That's definitely true.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  And yeah, I'm so busy all the time. Meanwhile, no, no productivity, you know, or or very little.

• 2:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Limited.

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:01Jocko Willink?

  Limited. True. Plan your day, execute your plan. All right, last little quote from this, this is Frederick the Great. The Battle of Collin in seventeen fifty-seven, and there were some troops that were. I read a couple of different versions, again, speaking of rabbit holes, you start going down these rabbit holes. I read two different versions of this. There was either troops that were hesitating to attack or there were troops that were actually retreating. And to these troops Frederick the Great said, "Dogs, would you live forever?"

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  And another way that was translated was you cursed rascals would you live forever?

• 2:14:53Jocko Willink?

  And Who's he saying this to? He's saying that to his own troops. Right, right, okay. That are leaving either either hesitating to attack. Right. Or they're or they're retreating and he's saying dogs. Right, right. Yeah.

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  Kurt and the Barbarians said that.

• 2:15:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, would you would you live forever? No. Is that what you're looking for to live forever? Yeah. No, you shouldn't be.

• 2:15:16Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I I think that's a good way to to wrap up that book. Because like we said, those two quotes, always do the business of the day in the day.

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  So plan what you do and do what you plan and

• 2:15:37Jocko Willink?

  dogs, you cursed rascals, would you live forever? Let me answer that for you. No, you won't.

• 2:15:48Jocko Willink?

  And we're here talking about a book. We talk about a book today and we talk about leadership and that's awesome. But you got to start by leading yourself.

• 2:15:59Jocko Willink?

  By doing what you say you will do. That's integrity, personal integrity. When you say that you're going to do something that they talked about being straight today. It talked about personal integrity. That starts with yourself by doing what you actually say you are going to do by not hesitating and waiting.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  You've got to lead yourself. So get moving. Don't wait. Do what you plan and do it today.

• 2:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Because you don't get to live forever.

• 2:16:43Jocko Willink?

  And the clock is ticking.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. And Echo, since we are not hesitating right now, if you could, without hesitation, please explain to people how they might be able to support this podcast, if they want to.

• 2:17:11Speaker 01

  Sure, of course.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  Because we don't want to live forever. I guess that doesn't make sense. Actually, Conan the Barbarian didn't say that.

• 2:17:20Jocko Willink?

  What did Conan the Barbarian say?

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  He didn't say, he doesn't say much in Conan the Barbarian. There's a few lines, but not that much. His girlfriend, girl that ends up being his girlfriend. Then she dies later, but whatever. Uh, she says-

• 2:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Tell me the whole point.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  She says, when they hesitate or when they're about to do something nuts, she says, "Do you want to live forever?", then they just charge.

• 2:17:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay, well, there you go.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  She gets it. Yeah, that's the exact usage. Anyway, speaking of not hesitating, so kettlebells. I'm talking about on it, but this is kind of, this is relevant, reminded me. I kind of mentioned it earlier before we started recording. So, I hear good things, right? Kettlebells? And I'm a little familiar, I'll incorporate them here and there, but, you know, I just hear more and more. So I'm like, hey, I'm gonna make this a big part of the, you know, the routine, the program. Yeah.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  You do kettlebells, obviously.

• 2:18:22Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Do you, how much dumbbell stuff do you do? Like dumbbells?

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  I actually don't use a lot of dumbbells. I know you're a big dumbbell guy.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, even like bench, right?

• 2:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I don't-

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  Man, how, when was the last time I benched? Like, people will say, hey, how much can you bench?

• 2:18:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:18:40Speaker 01

  Man.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Not enough, that's my answer.

• 2:18:43Speaker 01

  That's a long time ago. Anyway, back to the kettlebells. So, starting kettlebells.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  But I got, and you know, you'd learn the tip, be careful with kettlebells if you're doing the kettlebells.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  You know how they say, yeah, start off light. This, I'd say with kettlebells more so than it. Cause when you throw a kettle, that thing, it's not like, a dumbbell is like, you grab a dumbbell, it has a perfect handle. Each side of the dumbbell is perfectly balanced.

• 2:19:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Same exact way, bruh, kettlebell, it has a handle, then it's on the thing, it'll flip around, it'll break your, bruh, you can break your hand. Or when you're swinging them, you know, the one that you go, I don't know all the terms, sorry. But the one you grab it with the two.

• 2:19:22Jocko Willink?

  Kettlebell swing, yeah.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Kettlebell is the basic one.

• 2:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Kettlebell swing.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  Between your legs.

• 2:19:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  Bruh, I'm like swinging it and I'm like, bro, what if this, what if my balance was off or I don't know, whatever. And the kettlebell hit my shin.

• 2:19:33Jocko Willink?

  You'd be in a lot of pain.

• 2:19:35Speaker 01

  Bro, it can break your shin if you have, you know, even if you had like a sixty-two pound kettlebell, you break your shin. Be careful with that. Anyway. So to make things, actually technically they're not more, I got the, the on it ones, the, the werewolf. You know, and the chimp and all that. And you think when you compare them to the regular kettlebells, um, they're, the kettlebells are round, right? The regular ones. So you'd think, oh, you know, the, the designer ones with the werewolf, they might be kinda awkward. Cause they're not like perfectly uniform, but guess what? Balanced when they make them.

• 2:20:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  So they're just as safe, but.

• 2:20:14Jocko Willink?

  So where are you going with all this?

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I'm explaining the new, uh, emergence of kettlebells in my workout. Yeah.

• 2:20:24Jocko Willink?

  And you like them?

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  I like them a lot. And the, the point is don't hesitate, right? Cause you know how, you know, you're like, yeah, I need to do more kettlebells. Ambiguous, ambiguous goal. That's what it is. No parameters. But I was like, you know what? Today's the day I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, this is gonna be the workout. So my workout was, you know, you want numbers? I'll give you numbers. So what I did.

• 2:20:46Speaker 01

  Metcon kettlebells, the werewolf. So those are sixty two pounds each and two. The double boom. So it's like a D. I don't know if this is an actual kettlebell official movement. I think it is. You go. It's like a kettlebell swing, two of them outside of the hips, narrow stance. Up to clean.

• 2:21:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you clean it.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  Right. And then press.

• 2:21:07Jocko Willink?

  And then press it.

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Right. And then back down squat. Boom boom.

• 2:21:10Jocko Willink?

  Clean and press.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Yes. So I do five reps and then five burpees. Walk in a circle thirty five seconds.

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  Five reps again. So I do that six times. Took like, I don't know, eight minutes, eight and a half minutes. That was the same as my other Metcon, but with the kettlebells and this kind of the squat. Probably it's weird. I used to do that with a bar. It's. There's a lot of little muscles in there that you.

• 2:21:41Jocko Willink?

  That's what makes kettlebells good is that they're unstable. They're less stable than a barbell.

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:46Jocko Willink?

  And they move awkwardly.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:49Jocko Willink?

  So you have to use more energy and more strength to keep them under control.

• 2:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:54Jocko Willink?

  So it's working some muscles that you're not used to most likely.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're it's it's interesting because you're using like. You can get into this kind of it's not weird, but this flow of like. You know, like when it swings down, it's not like, oh, it doesn't jerk you down. It will if you're not ready for it. But if you kind of know after you get used to it, it just flows. It's like there's almost no impact.

• 2:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Kettlebells are good.

• 2:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. So do that. Anyway.

• 2:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Where would you get your kettlebells from?

• 2:22:24Speaker 01

  I get my kettlebells from on it. I only get the cool ones actually afterwards. And I had a picture. I was gonna post it online too, but I was like, yeah.

• 2:22:32Jocko Willink?

  You weren't feeling it.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  It was less about that at that point, you know? But the one I again, the werewolf ones. So and Joe Rogan's on one of the videos on there. He kind of mentions this. He's like, I like this one because it's like, I think it was like the gorilla or something like that. He's like, it looks at you and it's like it wants to. He says, you know. He says that the gorilla looks like he wants to bite your dick off. That's what he says. Something along this line, but he has a good point like those kettle bells when you're like, man, I really don't want to do this. And then they're just looking at you, you know, and you're like, dang, you walk away, you come back and you look at it and it's still looking at you with the same expression because it's, you know.

• 2:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's an inanimate object.

• 2:23:16Speaker 01

  I'm saying it helps.

• 2:23:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  You know, cause you get into the workout, you know?

• 2:23:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:21Speaker 01

  You know, especially like how you're like, it's a challenge every time. Anyway, do that. All right. On it. Support, right? Podcast.

• 2:23:32Jocko Willink?

  On it.com slash Jocko.

• 2:23:33Speaker 01

  10% off.

• 2:23:34Jocko Willink?

  Get kettlebells.

• 2:23:38Jocko Willink?

  Alpha brain. Strong bone.

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Krill oil.

• 2:23:42Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 2:23:42Jocko Willink?

  Shroom tech.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So with the krill oil. Mine didn't come in yet. I slacked. I went to wine. It didn't come in yet and I'm kinda, it's weird. I'm slowly started. I'm not messed up. I'm not, but I'm slowly starting to. Yeah, I think so, huh?

• 2:23:58Jocko Willink?

  You don't wanna go, you don't wanna let it get out of your system completely. That's not good.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it gotta reincorporate into it.

• 2:24:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I think it takes about six days.

• 2:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, in my case, it took, it took, I think five when I start to be like all this difference. I think it comes in today. Nonetheless, krill oil, the best krill oil, straight up is from On It. So yeah, on it.com slash Jocko. 10% off. If you want that 10% off, go slash Jocko at the end. It's a good way to support yourself, podcasts and get after it more efficiently. Also,

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  if you want to check out this book,

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  Serve to Lead.

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  Uh, we'll have it posted on the website. Uh, it takes you to Amazon. Grab these books from there. You click through the website. That supports podcasts really good. Whether you're buying these books, any book, we did Musashi last week.

• 2:24:50Jocko Willink?

  No, we did Book of Five Rings last week. Musashi, the novel will be covered in Podcast 100.

• 2:24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:57Jocko Willink?

  If you, uh, we are gonna talk about the whole book. It's a novel, so it's gonna be spoilers. So if you want to listen to that podcast, you gotta read that book now. It's a thousand pages long. It's freaking long.

• 2:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:12Jocko Willink?

  So get the book now so that you can. Get the satisfaction of the book because it has the most epic ending. It's one of the most epic endings of any books.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's on the docopodcast.com website. Books, Docopodcast books, they're all on there. Also, the one, you mentioned it today, one called Mind Games, the book that I read.

• 2:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you put that on there?

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  I didn't yet. The, the author is Michael Powell. And here's the thing, it's not like, it's, it's not like a typical book where it's like, talks about anger management. It's not that. It's, it's literally like, there's little games.

• 2:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  Like mind, brain exercises in there, you know? It's just everything and they're really short chapters. They're just little things and that one chapter happened to be about dealing with anger. Anyway, Michael Powell is the author on that one. That was a good, I'll put it on there though.

• 2:26:01Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 2:26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yeah, anyway, Amazon click through, basically you click through there, boom, takes Amazon. It's a, it's a little support thing, you know, small action, big reaction. Or if you do other shopping on there.

• 2:26:12Jocko Willink?

  Duck tape?

• 2:26:13Speaker 01

  Duck tape, if you will. So yeah, any shopping really, but you know, these books, that's a good, that's a real relevant one. I think that people, um, you know, they do wanna to grab these books and boom, they're on there.

• 2:26:23Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  Um, also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, whichever one you prefer. I think iTunes is the most popular, but I see significant references to Google Play in general society, you know? Also, a lot of times.

• 2:26:43Jocko Willink?

  Stitcher?

• 2:26:43Speaker 01

  Stitcher, yeah. You know how like a lot of them people, they don't wanna go mainstream, you know?

• 2:26:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:26:49Speaker 01

  It's like, like.

• 2:26:50Jocko Willink?

  They like to keep it old school hardcore underground.

• 2:26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it makes sense, you know? What's the old saying? Don't go with the herd or path less traveled. You know, one of those, all those things. Same deal, same deal. So I get it, Google Play, oh, but good news is we're on all of them.

• 2:27:07Jocko Willink?

  No, just good news.

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  Boom, choose your, your avenue. Also, YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channels. We do have a YouTube channel, talk about it every week. But it, not only does it have the video version of this podcast, has excerpts and deluxe excerpts?

• 2:27:27Jocko Willink?

  What are those excerpts that you have?

• 2:27:29Speaker 01

  Enhanced, we'll just say enhanced excerpts. Also, you know what, man? I, I have this other idea, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna make little.

• 2:27:39Speaker 01

  We'll just say other little videos too. That's what I'm gonna do. Just to add, add value, so to speak.

• 2:27:44Jocko Willink?

  I like that. Well, the video is a very compelling form of interaction with people. And people are like, that's why, that's why YouTube. I think YouTube is like the most searched website. Bigger than, it's more searched than Google. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's up there. If it's not number one, it's number two. So if you wanna learn something, people immediately

• 2:28:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:28:07Jocko Willink?

  search YouTube.

• 2:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I do.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  And guess what? Remember the other day we talked about YouTube Red?

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:12Jocko Willink?

  I got YouTube Red.

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I buy it cuz the ads.

• 2:28:15Jocko Willink?

  The ads is one thing, but also cuz you can listen to music without it being on the screen. It plays in the background like iTunes.

• 2:28:25Speaker 01

  Is that the main reason?

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz now I can get any album that I've cuz a lot of the music, a lot of the music that I listen to isn't on iTunes. Cuz it's old school. It's hardcore, it's underground, like literally not on there.

• 2:28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:38Jocko Willink?

  But the YouTube videos up there.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy how YouTube has them.

• 2:28:40Jocko Willink?

  It's a YouTube video will be on there from some random hardcore band from New York, upstate New York. And their, their, their, their one album that they made, their one EP, five songs long, that came out in 1987. It'll be on YouTube. It's not anywhere near iTunes. It's on, and you can play it, which is awesome.

• 2:29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. Um, I guess they, YouTube Red sometimes they'll put, or not some, all the time they'll put

• 2:29:11Jocko Willink?

  Do you have YouTube Red now?

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  No. Because the main selling point

• 2:29:15Jocko Willink?

  The problem is albums without tracks.

• 2:29:19Jocko Willink?

  Just FYI. Yeah, I know you like albums with tracks, these are albums without tracks.

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  Well, typically I don't listen to YouTube for the music situation. That's not where I go to.

• 2:29:28Jocko Willink?

  If you have Red, you'll change that.

• 2:29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I mean, Red, they push it with, hey, no ads. And then I'm like, cool, no ads. But, man, I'm not that quick to jump on the no ads thing. I, there have been plenty of times, a lot of times with movies, but the ads that play, I'll like, it'll be for me, direct before me. Like dang, this ad is helping me.

• 2:29:47Jocko Willink?

  You want the ads.

• 2:29:47Speaker 01

  In a way, sometimes, yeah.

• 2:29:49Jocko Willink?

  You're like the ultimate YouTube person. Not only me, I click the next video, I'm gonna enjoy the advertisement.

• 2:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get the Ty Lopez ads a lot. You know that is right, Ty Lopez? He's a, um, he's a super smart guy. He's actually one of the reasons why like I started reading a lot. Like one of the reasons. And so he's a smart guy, but his ads are all over YouTube. But I know it's my fault because it's relevant to what I watch, apparently. You know how they do that? So it's my fault. But those are the ads I get, Ty Lopez. Should you go to college? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, um, yeah, so yeah, subscribe to our YouTube. You know, got some subscribers on there, some good feedback. You know, I'm gonna keep posting videos. It does help that people will say, "Echo, post videos."

• 2:30:34Speaker 01

  In addition to just...

• 2:30:35Jocko Willink?

  He's requesting peer pressure. I like that. That's good.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, so yeah, subscribe to YouTube, that's a good one. Uh, also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. jockostore.com. On there, we have t-shirts. If you wear t-shirts, you know, check them out. Um, if you're interested in anything on there, get something. I'm not saying to buy some, I'm not saying, "Hey, guys, go to jockostore.com and buy a t-shirt." I'm not saying that. I'm saying go to jockostore.com. There's some shirts on there, some hoodies on there, rash guards, patches. Some women's stuff, some tank tops and whatnot. Travel mugs. Hats coming soon. Anyway, check them out if you like them.

• 2:31:18Jocko Willink?

  You said hats coming soon before.

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:20Jocko Willink?

  So far, I've been impressed by your, uh, turn times on that.

• 2:31:22Speaker 01

  It just depends on what you think soon.

• 2:31:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, when you say soon to me, that to me means three days.

• 2:31:28Speaker 01

  Okay, so I grew up on Kauai.

• 2:31:30Jocko Willink?

  For hats. I don't care where you're from.

• 2:31:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, I'm not saying it's Hawaiian time. I'm not saying that. It is, but that's not what I'm saying right now. Okay, so Kauai, in Omao. On Kauai, in Hawaii. So on the end of Omao Road is a, I don't know what it is, a church or religious center or something? And it says, on the top, it says, "Jesus Coming Soon." And that went up when I was, I think...

• 2:31:56Speaker 01

  Seven years old?

• 2:31:57Jocko Willink?

  So soon is a relative term.

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Very relative, yes. It's a sliding scale, for sure.

• 2:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, let me tell you what. Hats, I hope, get here before the return of Jesus.

• 2:32:09Speaker 01

  Yes, that's the goal, for sure.

• 2:32:11Jocko Willink?

  We can make that happen. It'd be awfully nice.

• 2:32:14Speaker 01

  Alright, you got it.

• 2:32:15Jocko Willink?

  Because it's summertime now. Right now, it's summertime, so we need hats to wear in the sun.

• 2:32:20Speaker 01

  Oh, right, to block the sun.

• 2:32:22Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:32:22Speaker 01

  That's what hats do. Yeah, got you. So, yeah, there it is. jockostore.com. If you see something on there that you like, you recognize the layers, grab something. Support. Here's a little thing. Jocko designed this shirt.

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  Designed specifically 100% too, by the way, by Jocko. I even tried to put my little pinky in there for some info. Yeah, straight up denied. I'm like, bro, do you know who manages this store?

• 2:32:51Jocko Willink?

  Is that shirt up yet?

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  That shirt's not up. It's being printed, but, you know, we went with it. And 100% Jocko's design. 100% not really approved by me. I mean, it's approved, but like, I tried to like, make my little considerations, my little alterations in.

• 2:33:10Jocko Willink?

  Alterations?

• 2:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

• 2:33:12Jocko Willink?

  I was watching out for them alterations. I was worried about them.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  My creative input.

• 2:33:17Jocko Willink?

  Luckily, we overcame them.

• 2:33:18Speaker 01

  Bro, totally overcame them.

• 2:33:20Jocko Willink?

  You got trumped. I said, "We're making this shirt," and that's a direct order.

• 2:33:25Speaker 01

  Basically what happened. Yeah. Nah, you finessed it for sure, but at the end of the day, I looked up and I was like, dang, my input on, you know, the store that, you know, I think, I feel like I'm the manager of the store. Apparently, I'm wrong, but that's cool. So, anyway, new shirt as a result. Designed by Jocko. jockostore.com. That's a good one. Also, Psychological Warfare. If you don't know what that is, it's an album with tracks of Jocko's voice saying and telling, helping.

• 2:33:55Speaker 01

  So what it's doing, it's helping.

• 2:33:57Jocko Willink?

  I hope so.

• 2:33:58Speaker 01

  People, myself included by the way, through moments of weakness, if they arrive. Arise. Arise and arise. Yeah. So yeah, if you're having trouble one day.

• 2:34:12Jocko Willink?

  If you want an alarm clock of me, which people ask me for.

• 2:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:17Jocko Willink?

  Just get psychological warfare and set it as your alarm.

• 2:34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:19Jocko Willink?

  That's it. That's why we made it. Because everyone was asking for that. So there you have it. You don't need to, you don't need to, we're not gonna make a ringtone, I don't think.

• 2:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, technically you just set it as.

• 2:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you just set it as a ringtone and you're good.

• 2:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, yeah, and it works really good, especially that, well, it depends on your weakness, right? Or what kind of person you are. So, you know, me. If you say, "Hey, Echo, wake up at 4:30 for one year, every morning, one year." There's gonna be a day or two where it's gonna be harder than, you know, than another day. So. Put on the trap.

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  What time do you wake up?

• 2:34:52Speaker 01

  That's classified. So.

• 2:34:55Speaker 01

  If you have problems.

• 2:34:58Jocko Willink?

  That sounds like crack a noon to me.

• 2:35:03Speaker 01

  I woke up at noon on Saturday.

• 2:35:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, because you're still on Hawaiian time?

• 2:35:08Speaker 01

  In a way.

• 2:35:08Jocko Willink?

  But noon? How could you even do that?

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  Bro, I didn't mean to. It was, it's a long story, but yeah, my wife was like, "Hey, it was good for you to join us." Or "Nice of you to join us."

• 2:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Even your wife is ragging on you for sleeping till noon.

• 2:35:23Speaker 01

  Bro, credit to her. She was just like, "Yeah."

• 2:35:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she's got two kids to take care of. You're up there sprawled out.

• 2:35:28Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 2:35:29Jocko Willink?

  The queen sized bed, just getting after it.

• 2:35:31Speaker 01

  I know, bro. I know, it's bad.

• 2:35:32Jocko Willink?

  Not.

• 2:35:33Speaker 01

  Gonna make a change. Nonetheless, back to psychological warfare. If you have, you know, if you're on a cool diet, your eating is clean, boom, you get that temptation one day at work. The donuts, you know, they bring the donuts, right? We talk about this all the time. Yeah, people just do that too. Okay, Hiron Gracie, Hiron, R Y, R W.

• 2:35:54Speaker 01

  He talks about, um, like how you, you go to a restaurant and they're like, oh, so cute. The kids, here's some, you know, here's a cupcake for the kids. So cute, right? And people like overlook how rude in, uh, it's like, it's how much of a violation that is.

• 2:36:09Jocko Willink?

  You got any rat poison you can feed them while you're at it?

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, look, look how cute your kids are. Kids, let me give them something super unhealthy.

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Violation. Anyway, that's what happens when people bring donuts for work and think, I'm gonna do this for the office.

• 2:36:25Speaker 01

  Not that I frown upon that. I'm just saying, put it into perspective. Nonetheless, if someone does that while you're at work, boom, you got a track for that, too. Put it on real quick. Put on earbuds, you know, so it's for you.

• 2:36:35Jocko Willink?

  Sugar coated lies.

• 2:36:36Speaker 01

  Sugar coated lies directly into your, anyway, it's called psychological warfare. Look at it on, or look for it on iTunes. Jocko Willink.

• 2:36:43Jocko Willink?

  Google Play.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  Google Play, Amazon Music, all that stuff. Yeah.

• 2:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Like good stuff.

• 2:36:46Speaker 01

  Wherever the MP3s are being distributed.

• 2:36:50Jocko Willink?

  All right. Also, on Amazon, you can get Jocko White Tea. And here's a little verified purchase review. Again, this means that the person, this is verified.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a hundred percent. So here's the review. As a tea guy, I am somewhat picky. So I ordered some Jocko White Tea. I'm pretty sure the box was growling when I opened it.

• 2:37:12Jocko Willink?

  That's a verified review. I brewed up some tea and poured it over ice, after which I went out on my bike for a training ride. I was pulled over twice. I explained that I had consumed some Jocko White Tea before I left and the officer just nodded and said, get after it. The next officer was not so forgiving and gave me a ticket for speed limit. Um, so in summary, this tea can get pretty pricey if you don't mind speeding tickets while you're riding a bike. So it's just another thing to be careful of. If you drink Jocko White Tea and then you get on a bike, you gotta watch out that you don't get speeding tickets because you're gonna be going a little faster than the speed limit. That's the Jocko White Tea. Also, on Amazon, you can get Way the Warrior Kid.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  And this, this review here of Way of the Warrior Kid, also verified purchase review from Amazon. This is the book I wish I'd read when I was a kid, and that's the same thing I say all the time. I work in schools and I've already bought a spare copy to lend out to my students. I've also read it twice myself, though I'm 39-year-old man. Side note, my pull-ups have also improved. So, I'm telling you, it's a kid's book, sure, that's what everyone says. That's, you know, what it's set up, it kinda looks like. Sure. There's some lessons in there from Uncle Jake that we all need. Yeah. So, Way of the Warrior Kid, you can pick that one up. Also, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 2:38:37Jocko Willink?

  You know what this book is about?

• 2:38:39Jocko Willink?

  It's about getting after it mentally and physically, simple, straightforward. So, if you want to get after it, get the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 2:38:53Jocko Willink?

  Not a lot of fluff in there, I'm gonna tell you that right now. Not a lot of fluff. Straightforward.

• 2:39:01Jocko Willink?

  Of course, we got the book Extreme Ownership. It's the book we refer back to a bunch on here. Combat leadership for your life, for your business, for your school, for your family, for you.

• 2:39:16Jocko Willink?

  Own it.

• 2:39:18Jocko Willink?

  And for your business or your team, you can get us, Echelon Front Leadership Management Consulting, to help bring leadership at your team to the next level. That is Leif Babin, who wrote Extreme Ownership with me. That is JP Denell. That is Dave Burke. Both those guys have been on the podcast, worked both with those, both those guys extensively in the Battle of Ramadi.

• 2:39:48Jocko Willink?

  And myself, also, at Echelon Front. So, that's what we do. We go into companies and we help you with your leadership.

• 2:39:57Jocko Willink?

  [email protected] if you're interested. Also, the muster in Austin, Texas, July 13th and 14th, Omni Barton Creek Resort. I think this might be sold out by the time this airs. It's a venue that's only 300 seats. We've sold most of them. If you don't get a ticket in time for that, check extremeownership.com, see if you can still get a ticket for that one. And if you don't get a ticket in time for that one, that's okay. Come to San Diego, September 14th and 15th for muster 004. That one is also at the Omni Hotel, but the one in San Diego. Lots of folks are coming back to that one. Lots of people that went to the first muster

• 2:40:41Jocko Willink?

  in San Diego are coming back for another go. It's gonna be awesome. We will see you there. And in the meantime, if you want to talk to us, we are actually upon the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram. And we're gonna see that one on the Facebook. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to everyone for listening to the podcast.

• 2:41:16Jocko Willink?

  But don't just listen. Go out. Wake up earlier, work out harder, read more, make yourself better.

• 2:41:29Jocko Willink?

  A better soldier, a better sailor, a better airman, or a better marine, a better police officer, a better firefighter, a better paramedic. Make yourself a better engineer, or janitor, or waitress, or waiter, or lawyer, or doctor, or car mechanic, or builder.

• 2:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Make yourself a better person, a better leader.

• 2:42:02Jocko Willink?

  Every day.

• 2:42:05Jocko Willink?

  And as Charlie May said,

• 2:42:10Jocko Willink?

  on July 1st, 1916, before he went over the top into the raging hell that was the Battle of the Somme, he said, "It is a glorious morning."

• 2:42:30Jocko Willink?

  And it certainly is.

• 2:42:34Jocko Willink?

  All of them are.

• 2:42:38Jocko Willink?

  Every morning is glorious, so get out there and get after it.

• 2:42:48Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Out.