867: Zero Sync is the Future of Data Loading

What’s the deal with Zero Sync? Scott and Wes dive into this cutting-edge database tech, exploring its real-time interactivity, blazing-fast performance, and how it stacks up against the competition. Plus, they break down setup, querying, authentication, and whether it’s ready for prime time. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 01:59 Brought to you by Sentry.io. 02:21 Today’s agenda. 02:52 What is Zero Sync? The Docs. InstantDB. 07:02 Zerobugs loading speed. 11:04 Real-time interactivity. 11:38 Why is it different? 12:11 How to get it set up. 12:58 Querying Data. 16:22 Writing data. 16:31 Upsert. 17:39 Authentication and permissions. Johannes Schickling Ep 767. 19:27 Preloading. 19:41 Migrations and deployment. 20:17 Some extras. 21:16 CreateSubscriber. 23:08 Can you use this today? Zero Syn Roadmap. Scott’s YouTube Video. Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  Welcome to Syntax on this Monday hasty treat. We're going to be talking about a new library, new system caching query language, way to build websites that is really extremely impressive and allows for not only the fastest things that you've used, but great experiences and a really nice developer experience in a lot of ways. I'm talking about with something called Zero Sync. So we're going to be diving into what this thing is, what kites of, you know, projects this enables you to actually work on and why it's so cool. I've been personally working in it quite a bit. My name is Scott Talinski. I'm a developer from Denver. With me as always is New West, New Boss. What's up bud?

• 0:44Wes Bos?

  Hey, I'm excited to be back. It's our first episode of the year recording. Had a nice little Christmas break and now I'm like, yesterday was like my first day back and I was like, I feel a little...

• 0:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, same.

• 0:56Wes Bos?

  You know, I had this huge list of little fussy things to deal with and now today it's just like, I made a video and I'm researching and coding. I was like, yeah, this feels good.

• 1:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, good video too, by the way. I saw that pop up and it's something on VS Code feature, that feature that I use all the time personally, so.

• 1:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I had, some of those videos are just, I'm sick of people asking me, what is this? So I was like, alright, I'm making a video, I can just point to the video.

• 1:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, point to the video, here it is. Sick, man. Yeah, I was spending a lot of time yesterday just getting through my to-do list and then, you know, we have our one-on-ones and all of our meetings and it was really nice to get back in the swing of things, but at the same time, you're like, alright, I am refocusing now on everything I have to do, starting for the new year. And it feels good, but at the same time, I don't feel like I'm at like peak performance just yet, you know? I think that'll, that'll come maybe Thursday or Friday.

• 1:51Wes Bos?

  You gotta rev up.

• 1:52Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, gotta rev up, definitely.

• 1:59Scott Tolinski?

  And if you want to see all of the errors in your application, you'll want to check out Sentry at sentry.io/syntax. You don't want a production application out there that, well, you have no visibility into in case something is blowing up and you might not even know it. So head on over to sentry.io/syntax. Again, we've been using this tool for a long time and it totally rules. Well, let's get into it, man. Zero Sync, I'm going to be sharing my screen. If you're listening in audio, you know, I'll do my very best. I'm not going to, you know, sacrifice the audio podcast for visuals here, but I do want to at least show you at least how very fast this system is. And if nothing else, the screen share that we'll be doing in the video version of the podcast will be there to show you

• 2:42Scott Tolinski?

  a little bit about maybe some of the syntax from the docs, but also specifically just how fast this stinking library and this platform is. So Zero Sync, what is this? What is this all about? It kind of comes out of the local first space. I know they were a little apprehensive about calling it a local first system, but since local first is the term that is sort of stuck, even though there's like, what, like six or seven different things that make up local first, like encrypted data and, you know, the ability to download your data. Like this isn't, this isn't those things. This is mostly a sync engine, a caching library, a like a front end query library, like a sync system,

• 3:27Scott Tolinski?

  web sockets, those types of things, rather than the full on quintessential or like coined term local first version of local first.

• 3:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah, so as far as I understand it is Zero will allow you to build apps, both it'll take care of the database part. It'll take care of the client side querying real time part and it'll take care of the, any backend logic that needs to happen before it actually hits a database. Is that a fair way to put it? Like this is for building apps that have data and data needs to be put into the client.

• 4:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So what this allows for is apps that work with local data and you modify that data locally as if you're working in like a local cache and behind the scenes, zero handles one storing that local data. It handles sending the patch messages to a sync server. That sync server is going to then take those patch messages and then distribute those changes to the database. And because it's working with this, this patch message system of how it's sending small incremental amounts of data, you're always sending very small amounts of data unless of course, the

• 4:46Scott Tolinski?

  user doesn't have the like, the, the, the initial pull down of data, which even that can be very, very fast. So what it does behind the scenes is it's pulling down data, storing it to your local data on your computer, on your client, and then always interacting with that. And then it's handling that, that, the data meshing, it's handling the real time stuff, like you said. But the coolest thing about zero sync compared to some of these other ones is that it doesn't take over your entire system to the point where you're having to buy in completely to their database, right? You're not like, there, there's another library called Instant DB that I really

• 5:28Scott Tolinski?

  like. That is kind of like a Firebase clone, but also does local first very well. But for them, you're storing everything on their server on their platform. You know, with this, it's, it's bring your own Postgres database. You bring your own Postgres database. It doesn't have to be entirely devoted to zero. Zero can sync and cache whatever you need it to be. And maybe perhaps you have some other things that aren't that are just stored in that database. Either way, it doesn't take over your whole database if you don't want it to.

• 6:00Wes Bos?

  Okay. So like, if you have an existing app that's Postgres or MySQL, something like that, it's not like you, you can, you need to build from scratch, right?

• 6:08Scott Tolinski?

  Correct.

• 6:09Wes Bos?

  Often, I'm sure that drives people crazy is like, we have 15 years of, of legacy code. We can't just, just drop. This whole thing and use the hipster stack to to build from scratch.

• 6:21Scott Tolinski?

  Totally. And I'm actually going to be converting a a pre-existing Postgres app that I have to zero.

• 6:26Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 6:27Scott Tolinski?

  To give that a try because so far I've only built things from scratch with it. But if you look at the database tables for the stuff in zero, there's nothing zero specific within your specific table. So like, right now, I'm building a card game with zero. And I have two tables, one for the current hand and one for the game itself. And if you were to look at both of those tables, there's nothing zero specific in either of those tables. It all kind of happens elsewhere, uh, which is great. Like, you know, you'll be able to bring your own own data, your own database. And it'll just, it it's so good. So I want to show you really quick, folks who are watching. You'll get this little bit of extra in terms of seeing how fast this is, but I'll also describe it.

• 7:10Scott Tolinski?

  So I have a an application that they built called Zero Bugs. They're actually using this as their real bug tracker, which I thought was interesting. They were like, well, we want to build a project to showcase how good uh zero is. So we might as well build our own bug tracker, uh, which is exquisite. So.

• 7:29Wes Bos?

  We call that dog fooding in the biz.

• 7:32Scott Tolinski?

  It's a dog fooding for sure. This is uh, and what's the best dog food out there? I'm not sure what we use Avoderm. This is the Avoderm of dog fooding. This is the best dog food. Or what is it? Those dog food commercials that were like, you store dog food in your fridge? That's what this is. Um, so I I'll actually, I'm going to pop open the network tab. So we can see this like initial load speed. All right, what's new in Chrome? Blah, blah, blah. So uh, initial load times are extremely fast. DOM content loaded in 137 milliseconds, very fast, uh, not even a noticeable change. And this is not server side rendered. This is all client side rendered. So server side rendered people who think like the fastest way to get something going is a cached HTML page. This is certainly not that, and it is incredibly fast consistently.

• 8:17Wes Bos?

  Can you, can you click on the disable cache and do it? Because I know everyone's screaming at you right now.

• 8:22Scott Tolinski?

  Sure. 182 milliseconds.

• 8:25Wes Bos?

  Wow, that's, that's really good. And the reason that is so fast is because it. Only needs to download what like some HTML and some JavaScript and the first time it needs to download data, but most of your heavy lifting, which is your database, is already in your browser, right?

• 8:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. And so, yeah, all of the data is stored in your browser. And unlike other, you know, ways of doing local data, it's not storing necessarily stuff that you like, it's not storing your database as an exact, um, exact copy of your database in the index DB. Like there's a lot of interesting ways that this data is being stored in here and I'm not going to get into the details because honestly, I don't know of how this data is stored and load. They, they do some really intense database research in terms of how they've constructed, uh, the way that this is interacting here. And there's, they actually link in their docs to a, oh man, a scientific paper on incremental view maintenance.

• 9:30Wes Bos?

  I, I think like, as like a web developer, you just need to understand it's storing the stuff that it needs, right? Knows how to get the stuff it needs fast.

• 9:39Scott Tolinski?

  Exactly. That's exactly it. I, I see a scientific view paper called automatic incremental view maintenance for rich query languages with diagrams and math. And I say, all right, somebody else figured that out. That's cool. They told me actually from the zero folks told me that my last time I showed how fast this was, I was actually limiting how fast it actually was because I had too much delay on my keyboard when I held down a key. So I'm going to go in my keyboard settings really quick and remove that delay. Uh, key repeat rate is going to be fast and the delay until repeat is going to be short. All right. So they have it set up keyboard shortcuts. I'm going to open an issue. This is a full issue, super fast.

• 10:23Scott Tolinski?

  And now I'm going to hit the J key. So you can see it, uh, it instantly loaded the next one. Again, the data is local. It's not having to do a network call here. Everything you need to run this application is currently within the client. So, uh, I'm holding the key down. If you're watching this, I just scrolled through, I don't know.

• 10:42Wes Bos?

  Probably 50 pages loaded in a matter of like one second. Like it's, it's instant loading of from page to page. And often you would, you would sort of like try to preload things, right?

• 10:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Wes Bos?

  But that's not necessary.

• 10:58Scott Tolinski?

  And this is preloaded to an extent in that that data is in your database.

• 11:01Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Scott Tolinski?

  When you ask for it, it's, it's right there. What's so cool about this is that it also includes real time. So if somebody is making changes to this or leaving comments on this or giving this a reaction or a thumbs up, you'll see it happen. It will pop in and it'll just work and that happens out of the box for free. So like I said, I'm building a card game with it and the way, the way that the card game works is I just update the database in like a minor, hey, this card was played for this specific hand and everybody just sees that card being played because it happens through the web socket in real time without any effort. And all those things are great because I could do a lot of this stuff with the precursor to this library,

• 11:43Scott Tolinski?

  which was Replica, right? But in Replica, I was having to write like a 12, 13, 14 step process to receive patch messages on my server and handle them accordingly. And there were instances there where I goofed things up in terms of how I'm versioning rows or what, you know, is that process actually as fast as it could be and what happens in fail states? And like, I didn't have to do any of that with Zero. So I gotta say, beyond just being that fast, the developer experience for this thing is great. So to get into exactly what you do, you're basically giving it a Postgres database address in an env var. You're creating a schema. That schema has to be its own thing. It's a zero schema.

• 12:26Scott Tolinski?

  Now Nate from One, actually who's been on the show, Tom Agui, Nate, he actually created a Drizzle to Zero Schema Translator. So you could write your schema once in Drizzle and translate it to Zero if you'd like. I personally have been using Drizzle to do my migration still to handle my, my database. Stuff and then I have my zero schema itself, which is its own thing to identify the schema. You also get easy, super easy relations. It all just functions super well, to be honest. The way you query data is from a client side query language called ZQL. And it is ORM ish. So you create like your zero instance.

• 13:10Scott Tolinski?

  You do a Z dot query and then you give it the collection and then you put in your, your parameters like a where or an order by.

• 13:20Wes Bos?

  Kind of, kind of feels Prisma E.

• 13:22Scott Tolinski?

  Prisma E, any sort of ORM, right?

• 13:24Wes Bos?

  So yeah.

• 13:25Scott Tolinski?

  Like if I'm, if I'm in that, that Z bugs example, Z dot query dot issue dot where, and then you have your, your, you know, qualifiers to how you want to have that. And if you want one of them, you do a dot one on the end or a limit or whatever. And then if you want related, all you have to do is inside of there, do like a related where you get a function and then you get access to another collection that could.

• 13:49Wes Bos?

  Like nested data, like get me episodes and for each episode, get me the guests and then for each guest also me, also get me a list of episodes they've been on, right?

• 14:00Scott Tolinski?

  Totally. And again, since this is all local, it is all, you don't have to worry about super nested relations and maybe like N plus one issues or anything like that. Because again, the data, the data query aspect is so fast that like I have never had an issue with this where I've been like having to think, oh, is this query causing an N plus one issue? Is this, and then not to say that I don't know if you can hit those issues. Honestly, I'd have to talk to the, the experts on that one, but it's, it's all just so fast that you haven't really have to think about that that much. So either way, you have this query language, it works really nicely, it's its own thing. But with that query language, you get this real time cache where everything is a subscription.

• 14:44Scott Tolinski?

  And anytime data changes, that data automatically updates, your UI automatically updates. It is all just real time, it's real time, it's instant, it's local first, it's all these things and you get to bring your own. Database. So if we're talking my, my dream, this is my dream here.

• 15:01Wes Bos?

  Yeah. So what you're saying is there is a database, I'm saying that in quotes because the data is also in the client. And if you write a query for like a list of posts, if something else were to mutate those posts, update, delete, add a new one, then automatically that query is reactive and you don't need to do any refetching.

• 15:27Scott Tolinski?

  Correct.

• 15:27Wes Bos?

  Or loading, is there, is there even a loading state in this?

• 15:31Scott Tolinski?

  I, you know, I have not written a loading state since I've been using this.

• 15:35Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 15:36Scott Tolinski?

  Things do initially come in, at least in the, the Svelte bindings that I wrote, I'm pretty sure this is the same way in the React version. Cause I, I based mine off of that. Things do initially come in as undefined, but it's so fast that it's only there to like, you know, do a quick if statement. So I, I've never seen a loading spinner with this. Maybe perhaps if you have a lot of data coming in on the very first initial load, that could be something.

• 16:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Cause at some point there, there might be like, you load the app for the first time and there is no data and you need to get that data. There may be a loading state.

• 16:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 16:13Wes Bos?

  But it is, it's not, maybe not something worth throwing a loader up. I'm, I'm sure we'll, we'll see some specific instances.

• 16:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yep. So querying data, we talked about that. Writing data is the exact same. You do, you know, z dot mutate dot collection dot insert or upsert or update. I actually, it's funny. I didn't even know there was an upsert and I got a comment on my YouTube video saying, hey, there's an upsert. Oh, cool. I love an upsert.

• 16:39Wes Bos?

  Can you, can you explain what an upsert is for, for the audience?

• 16:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So an upsert is like an insert and an update combined into one, where if the record of the ID that you're inserting in does, does exist, it's going to update it. And if it doesn't exist, it will create it. It's super handy for not having to do if thing exists, do insert or update. If thing doesn't exist, do insert.

• 17:03Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Scott Tolinski?

  It just kind of saves you that line, especially if you're always going to be adding the same data. I do love things that have an upsert. I don't know if there's downsides to it. I'm sure there's some people who have strong opinions there.

• 17:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Like, for example, on the syntax website, if we were storing data about an episode that you have listened to. You might want to just throw an up cert in there because it's like, well, if they haven't listened to this episode yet, if this is the first time that we are logging progress of this audio, then create it, otherwise update it, right? And it's nice to just say up cert.

• 17:37Scott Tolinski?

  It is. There's also batch updates. There's authentication baked in, which is JWT auth. You basically are just giving it your, either your auth secret or this JWK stuff, which I've never used. But you, you basically give zero your auth secret. You pass it in your auth token.

• 17:55Wes Bos?

  JWK.

• 17:56Scott Tolinski?

  I know. I gotta learn what this stuff is. It's a, yeah, it's a thing that people requested. And then from there, you get access to the permissions API where you're essentially inside of the schema, getting that JWT decoded in here and you can do a quick comparison. If creator ID is equal to essentially the user ID of whatever the decoded JWT is, then that is like your auth functions. So you can get granular with your auth permissions for inserting, deleting, updating all that stuff. And you have full control over that, which is great because in the earlier versions of this, this stuff wasn't in here. And that was like, what, even though this library is in alpha, we'll talk about that in a second.

• 18:40Scott Tolinski?

  I still was like, I can't use this on anything because I can't control permissions. But now I can control permissions. It's like, it's still alpha, but I'm going to at least try some stuff on here.

• 18:49Wes Bos?

  That, that's one question I have had for a long time, which we had Johannes on to talk about this, all this local first stuff. And we're like, how do you get a little bit more fine-grained control over, you should be able to view specific things or even at a field level. And his answer was like, it's more of like, local first is more of like a document level, you know? You either have access to it or not, but I don't, I don't know that that's, that's always true for the type of apps that I work on. Especially if it's like, well, it's, I would like for it to be local first, but also it just needs to be a regular web app. And I still want all of those features.

• 19:26Scott Tolinski?

  Totally. You can also preload, so you can run a query and then just run preload on it if you want. If you want to make sure that data is there, you know, on initial load for all these things. There's a lot of great demos that show some of the stuff in action too on their repo. Migrations, it's a little bit interesting right now. You gotta kind of do some hand stuff. Again, this library is in alpha, so I'm sure these things will change. Deploying, they have some docs on deploying. You really have, like, if you want to push this thing to production, you have, you have three things to consider, right? You have your database, which is just a Postgres database. You have the sync server, which is its own thing. It's a server that you can, they have a Docker container for it if you want, or a Docker image for it, if you'd want to just throw it up with Docker. And then you have your app.

• 20:11Scott Tolinski?

  So you have your database, your sync server, and then your app. And that's pretty much it. Other than that, you're just running things on config. There's some recipes in here as far as working with other libraries. They have a first-class Citizen React library here that is like the way that most of their demos are. There's also a first-class Solid JS library. And then as far as community, there's the one, which is the full stack React native framework from Nate. And then Zero Svelte, created by yours truly. I actually, I wrote this. And then a view, or Zero View as well. And then there's like some of those other things like Drizzle Zero or Prisma Zero to get you up and running.

• 20:55Scott Tolinski?

  The Svelte bindings for this are pretty dope, if I do say so myself. They work within like kind of the way that Svelte data stores have been going with this class syntax. So you just create a new query with your query inside of it, and then that gives you a reactive state variable. And likewise, everything just kind of works as it does in their React version.

• 21:16Wes Bos?

  How hard was it to write this adapter for Svelte? I'm curious, like...

• 21:22Scott Tolinski?

  It was harder until Svelte released a create subscriber that they added during the advent of Svelte this holiday. And that create subscriber made this subscriber made this easy. Now, in the very bare bones of this, it was super easy. But what I ended up doing was following what their React version was doing. And I created a view store, which was a map of each individual like hashed query. So it's like the query itself and the user who's querying it and that's storing it in a map. So each of those things can become its own reactive, its own reactive.

• 22:03Wes Bos?

  That's a great use case for a map because the key of the map can be not just a string, right? Can be anything.

• 22:10Scott Tolinski?

  Correct. And in this particular case, we're creating a hash of the query itself and then adding on the client ID. So it's the client and the hash. And that is what it would be.

• 22:23Wes Bos?

  Apollo did something similar to this as well.

• 22:25Scott Tolinski?

  I'm very sure they did.

• 22:26Wes Bos?

  Where every, every single query you've ever made is just hashed out.

• 22:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 22:30Wes Bos?

  Wow. So it's what? Couple hundred lines of code?

• 22:33Scott Tolinski?

  147.

• 22:34Wes Bos?

  And you're able to write an adapter? That's, that's impressive. That just goes to show the flexibility of the library of you can move it into an entirely different framework in 150 lines of code. That's impressive.

• 22:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. It was tough trying to translate some of the React stuff because React had all this like, I don't know, synchronized React state stuff that I was like, I don't even know like what this is doing. I have to research now.

• 22:57Wes Bos?

  You don't need a lot of that in the world.

• 22:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, these obscure React library or features to figure out what to do. The Solid version was a good thing to look after too. But hey, it all works. It's super good. As far as can you use this today? That's like a big question is like, can you use this today? And you probably shouldn't be shipping anything to production on this today unless you are super adventurous. They do have a roadmap. They're looking to be in beta by second quarter of 2025. So second quarter and

• 23:32Scott Tolinski?

  They want to add like vector based search, um, call or cell level read permissions, uh, which is interesting. Cash size management. So there's like a lot of little things. And but I think the the surface for the API, I don't know if it will change that much, but I can't imagine it will. I I've been on it since the first release and there there has been a little bit of change, but overall not that much crazy stuff. So I can't imagine they're gonna go nuts on this. I think it's well worth your time if you're interested in building applications that function like superhuman or linear, these apps that are as fast as the one that I showed off here where they're loading, you know, hundreds of records in a second. If you're interested in building stuff like that,

• 24:16Scott Tolinski?

  I don't know a better choice, uh, than this library to me personally, specifically because you still get full control over that that database. And if for some reason you want to move off of it at any given point, your data is not like it's your your data is not directly tied to zero in a way that makes it unmovable. So

• 24:35Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Scott Tolinski?

  I like it. Yeah, I'll say that. I like it a lot.

• 24:38Wes Bos?

  I'm trying to I'm trying to think like, yeah, so desktop applications. Like you said, linear issue tracking, probably something like Notion would be a really good, a good use case for it.

• 24:50Scott Tolinski?

  Games, real time multiplayer.

• 24:52Wes Bos?

  Games.

• 24:53Scott Tolinski?

  I saw like my card game, right?

• 24:55Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Scott Tolinski?

  That made it. Let me tell you, it made building a four person card game where I just made a a room, which is an ID. Um, and then if you join that room, you can sit at a chair, you get an ID, whatever. And then you automatically get real time all through web sockets. Somebody plays a card, everybody gets that update. And you click refresh and it's instant and you still have those updates, you know? Uh, it's pretty day cool. So yeah, for games specifically, I got a demo of it was like mouse positioning. Get this, it was mouse positioning in real time persisting into a database. So, uh, he was moving his mouse on the screen. I was getting the value of where his mouse was on my screen in real time. And then if you clicked refresh, I was still getting that person like

• 25:42Scott Tolinski?

  Wherever that last one is insane. Yeah, insane.

• 25:45Wes Bos?

  So you could, you could literally store absolutely as much as you want and absolutely everything and not have to worry about like, um, like rate limiting because I assume it does that for you. Like, like one thing I do is with my progress event on videos is I'll have to like debounce or throttle

• 26:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Wes Bos?

  that because I don't want to send, uh, every time that you, you have an update, it's every, every couple of seconds. But I really only want to, I save it locally every second, but I really only want to sync it every like 10 seconds or so. So that would be a good use case for this as well. Right?

• 26:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Yeah, definitely. They, um, they directly say like scaling, all sorts of.

• 26:29Wes Bos?

  Cool.

• 26:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I, I don't, uh, you know, I wish, uh, I knew a little bit more and I probably have been told at some point how it handles the synchronization, uh, behind the scenes where in terms of like how it knows when to push what and what, how much to push so that it's not pushing every tiny little thing. But the data, the amount of data that it's sending to your server is not, uh, the entire data every single time. It's just patches of data and because of that, it can small tiny bits of data.

• 26:59Wes Bos?

  Interesting.

• 27:01Scott Tolinski?

  It's cool, man. It, it's super cool. And this is like, I was looking forward to it a lot. So I, I bugged them like constantly. Like, can I get access? Can I get access? And then DAX got access and I was like, okay, DAX is in, I gotta get in. So I got to be the second person in their little, uh, in their little group. And I thought that was pretty cool to get my hands on it. So I'm definitely like a tinkerer in that regard. But I built a few things with it. I was building a survey app with it, which was really super nice and fun to do. Um, my card game with it. And so I've got a little bit of different experience building different things and, uh, impressed. I walked away impressed. I'll say that.

• 27:34Wes Bos?

  Cool. Um, so you also have a video on the syntax YouTube channel, um, detailing this as well.

• 27:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, it's called, uh, Zero Will Change Web Development Forever. And that sounds dramatic. It's clickbaity, yeah. But I do actually firmly believe that because this is like, hmm, this to me is like, everything I've been searching for post-meteor is really what it is. And, uh, I may, I'm even building like a library on top of this that includes auth. And it's like meteor-like, so that way you log in and you automatically have templates that you can modify and stuff. So, um, I'm, I'm doing some of that stuff just for fun and I'll talk, I talk about a lot of that. I'll, I'll, I'll update more once it's further along. But I used it to build my, uh, survey app and it went really well, so, um, stoked about it.

• 28:21Wes Bos?

  Awesome. Thanks so much. I'm definitely gonna have to give this a go. Put it on my list of things to check out, but I am stoked that you're finally able to talk about it. Cause Scott's been sending me, uh, little screenshots and demos of how amazing it is for months now. And it's, it's really exciting.

• 28:37Scott Tolinski?

  I know, I just, I wanna talk about it. And, and for people asking, uh, people who were asking before, I will be doing, uh, tutorials on this for both React, Svelte, whatever. Uh, whatever you wanna see, I'll do it because I like it. So, yeah.

• 28:50Wes Bos?

  Awesome. All right. Thanks everybody so much for tuning in. We will check you later. Peace.