Episode 355 - Pig Lady Road & the Hall-Mills Murders

Pig Lady Road is one of New Jersey’s most intriguing urban legends—a dark, winding road where a half-woman, half-pig apparition is said to appear to unlucky drivers after midnight. We break down the rumored origins of the Pig Lady, tragic tales of disfigurement and isolation that lead a vengeful spirit to wait for curious teens to test their luck. But the most likely origin of this legend is very real and very disturbing: the Hall–Mills murders of 1922, a sensational double homicide involving secret affairs, powerful families, missing evidence, and a witness cruelly nicknamed “the Pig Woman.” We explore how true crime, media frenzy, class dynamics and misogyny blurred together to thwart justice and transform a real woman into folklore. This brutal case sparked a century of haunting stories that still linger on New Jersey roads today. Watch the video version here. Have ghost stories of your own? E-mail them to us at [email protected] New Episodes are released every Thursday and Sunday at 12am PST/3am EST (the witching hour, of course). Corinne and Sabrina hand select a couple of paranormal encounters from our inbox to read in each episode, from demons, to cryptids, to aliens, to creepy kids... the list goes on and on. If you have a story of your own that you'd like us to share on an upcoming episode, we invite you to email them to us! If you enjoy our show, please consider joining our Patreon, rating and reviewing on iTunes & Spotify and following us on social media! Youtube, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Discord. Edited by Jaimi Ryan and produced by Emma Leventer and Jaimi Ryan, original music by Arms Akimbo! Disclaimer: the use of white sage and smudging is a closed practice. If you’re looking to cleanse your space, here are some great alternatives! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm so excited. I'm getting my whole body MRI scan from Prenuvo in a couple of weeks.

• 0:05Corinne Vien?

  It's honestly so important. It's like one of those things where getting older and aging has provided me so many anxieties about like what's going on.

• 0:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I recently had some medical issues in my family and everyone in my family is like, let's just do everything we can to get ahead and take our own health into our own hands. Prenuvo's whole body scan is a radiation-free MRI designed to help provide a detailed, non-invasive look at your body in under an hour, and it helps evaluate across major organs and systems, including the brain, spine, abdomen, pelvis, and more. Prenuvo's whole body scan can help detect many cancers, aneurysms, and hundreds of other conditions. And they have memberships that bundle MRI scans, blood panels, and a personalized results review to track your health year after year.

• 0:47Corinne Vien?

  To learn more about Prenuvo and get $300 off your whole body MRI, go to prenuvo.com/tgog and use code TGOG. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O.com/tgog. Terms and conditions apply.

• 1:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Receive $300 off Prenuvo whole body scans and executive and comprehensive memberships through January 31st. For full details, visit Prenuvo's website to read their terms and conditions and privacy notice. Prenuvo gifted me a whole body scan. A Prenuvo scan is a screening service, not diagnostic. Diagnosis and treatment are determined by your healthcare provider.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 2:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Hello.

• 2:09Corinne Vien?

  Jumbo.

• 2:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What's up, everyone?

• 2:11Corinne Vien?

  What is up? This is Two Girls, One Ghost.

• 2:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Two Girls, One Ghost.

• 2:15Corinne Vien?

  I'm sitting kind of far from my microphone, so I hope that's not too much of an issue.

• 2:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, I am too.

• 2:19Corinne Vien?

  I'll shout.

• 2:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Everyone would love that. Corinne is the shouter, Sabrina is the whisperer, and some people hate the whispering.

• 2:26Corinne Vien?

  But you know what? We are like, what, like six hundred episodes in at this point or something?

• 2:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm not changing it.

• 2:33Corinne Vien?

  It's two seconds of the episode.

• 2:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You can skip it. You know when it's coming. Anyway, hi, this is Fenn. I have a long episode for us today.

• 2:43Corinne Vien?

  Hmm.

• 2:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So I figure-

• 2:44Corinne Vien?

  I picked a very short listener story, so this is great.

• 2:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We do a little less chit-chatting.

• 2:49Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, we've been chatting less on the top.

• 2:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And just-

• 2:51Corinne Vien?

  Because people also say they don't like that, so.

• 2:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  See, we try to meet you in the middle. We can't do everything just for you.

• 2:57Corinne Vien?

  Talk for a couple minutes.

• 2:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, but I'm gonna start this episode, just, we're gonna dive right into it.

• 3:01Corinne Vien?

  Great.

• 3:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  This is a tale from a place where I was born.

• 3:05Corinne Vien?

  Huh.

• 3:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Weird New Jersey.

• 3:07Corinne Vien?

  Weird New Jersey. The OG weird state.

• 3:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  OG weird state. And if you were born in New Jersey, like little old me, you were no stranger to the weird New Jersey tales. There's stories of Clinton Road, the Jersey Devil, the Devil's Tree, so many others. It's a part of your childhood when you grow up in New Jersey.

• 3:26Corinne Vien?

  Totally.

• 3:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So I want to start this episode. Yeah, I was born there. That's the weirdest thing that happened.

• 3:33Corinne Vien?

  Well, I'm even just thinking about like the start of like the modern day America, like United States of America. It's like you wanted to have a duel, you had to go to New Jersey. It was a lawless-

• 3:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There was no law.

• 3:45Corinne Vien?

  Lawless lands. Creatures, both human and not-

• 3:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  True.

• 3:50Corinne Vien?

  -live in New Jersey.

• 3:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  With New Jersey in mind, I'm going to ask that all of you try to get into the mind of seventeen-year-old Sabrina. You're clutching your brand spanking new ID. My braces had just been removed, so I was really flashing those pearly whites. My parents had cautioned me of the responsibilities that come with being a licensed driver. No drinking and driving, no texting and driving. Follow the speed limit and beware the haunted roads of New Jersey.

• 4:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So now that everyone is totally imagining that they are me, picture this. It's late at night, past midnight, you're probably wearing a push-up bra. One of those Victoria's Secret ones with the like little gel pads that really push it up.

• 4:34Corinne Vien?

  My god, that brings me back. As if the padding needed more padding, it was so padded.

• 4:40Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And you could remove it?

• 4:41Corinne Vien?

  Your nipples were on over the top of the bra.

• 4:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Totally.

• 4:45Corinne Vien?

  It was.

• 4:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 4:46Corinne Vien?

  Damn. And their bikini tops? I looked like a bodybuilder, like it didn't cover anything.

• 4:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, it didn't cover anything.

• 4:52Corinne Vien?

  Oh, but they were so good. We loved them.

• 4:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And yeah, so now you're really me. It's past midnight. You're driving down rural New Jersey road, blasting and singing along to Kesha.

• 5:03Corinne Vien?

  Of course.

• 5:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's narrow.

• 5:05Corinne Vien?

  Tick tock and like, whoa, that was.

• 5:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  The road is narrow, it's tree covered, absent of any source of light other than your headlights. And the darkness seems alive. As you drive along this road, something changes. The energy in your car feels charged, staticky. The darkness outside becomes darker than dark. And then, all of a sudden, a woman jumps out in front of your car screaming. Her unexpected presence is startling in its own right, as is the sound of her screaming piercing the night. But her physical appearance is downright terrifying because this is a half woman, half animal. Specifically, half pig.

• 5:49Corinne Vien?

  Wow.

• 5:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That jumped out in front of your car and is now screaming.

• 5:53Corinne Vien?

  Oh, my gosh. Miss Piggy.

• 5:55Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What do you do?

• 5:56Corinne Vien?

  Shriek.

• 5:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Shit yourself?

• 5:57Corinne Vien?

  I don't know, just pee into a puddle.

• 6:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Wish you could disappear like a squonk.

• 6:02Corinne Vien?

  Like, I truly, like, I don't know what I would do. I think I'd be paralyzed with fear.

• 6:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It would be quite terrifying. But let's say you survive this horrific event. You naturally, if you're me, go home and you research the hell out of this. What the heck did you just see? And that is when you learn all about Pig Lady Road. This is an urban legend. That has many different locations in New Jersey, so there's not one specific Pig Lady Road. And so with many urban legends, the origins and manner in which or how they appear vary. Shout out to Weird New Jersey, literally this book. I have a book from 2005. It's a Weird New Jersey like book that I think my mom gave me.

• 6:42Corinne Vien?

  Oh, so good.

• 6:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  In middle school.

• 6:43Corinne Vien?

  I feel, I was just gonna say, I'm pretty sure they had them at the Scholastic book sale. Like, I remember Weird New Jersey books.

• 6:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, so they were like small ones, but then this is like a big one. It's like the like Guinness World Record size version of Weird New Jersey.

• 6:57Corinne Vien?

  I love that.

• 6:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Corinne Vien?

  You have that?

• 6:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I have it. Yeah.

• 7:00Corinne Vien?

  That feels like a collector's item.

• 7:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It has a sticker that says 20% off.

• 7:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But I found this story from there and then like some of the research I have from there too. So as the legend goes, there is a road or multiple roads nicknamed Pig Lady Road in honor of the paranormal being that roams and haunts the long stretch of country road. Some people say that if you drive down this road off of Royce Field Road in Hillsborough, New Jersey, and honk your horn, a woman with a pig head will appear, her pig head glowing in the middle of the road. Others say you can summon the pig lady by driving down the road, parking, turning your car off, then flashing your headlights three times while screaming, "Pig lady!"

• 7:48Corinne Vien?

  Oh my gosh, what?

• 7:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And looking in your rearview mirror.

• 7:52Corinne Vien?

  Wait, okay, wait. What's her physicals? Head of a pig, body of a lady?

• 7:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. Another iteration claims that if you drive down the road at midnight specifically, the pig lady will jump in front of your car weeping, and she's weeping in due to the shame of her disfigured face. Very squonk of her.

• 8:12Corinne Vien?

  Very squonk.

• 8:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And also very sad.

• 8:14Corinne Vien?

  Is she wearing clothes?

• 8:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think so. Nothing talks about a naked lady.

• 8:18Corinne Vien?

  Okay.

• 8:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, okay. This iteration does say that she only comes out at night, choosing to hide herself during the day. Now, the most terrifying way to conjure the pig lady and encounter her for yourself, this is for the tempters, the dervers, and the dum-dums. If you choose to call upon the pig lady, you must bring another person with you. So you can't do this one alone. You can head out onto this road and then in order to conjure her, you must annoy her first. So you go down this road with your friend or victim or offering, whoever this person is to you. And you park, then you flash your lights and beep and scream pig lady over and over and over.

• 9:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Then you kick that offering, sacrifice, out of your car, the human being, friend of yours, and leave them behind on the street as you drive off. And you have to drive all the way to the end of the road. You cannot look back in your rearview mirror at all. You have to just keep driving until you reach the end. Only then, when you reach the end of the road, can you turn back around. And you might be wondering, well, how long is this? Is it 30 seconds of a drive to the end of the road? No, this round trip takes like 10 minutes. So you were leaving someone, or maybe you were being left there for 10 minutes.

• 9:37Corinne Vien?

  You abandoning your friend after screaming pig lady is supposed to annoy her so much that she actually comes out?

• 9:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Corinne Vien?

  Probably to comfort your friend who is terrified.

• 9:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So it is said that the person who's left behind on the road will encounter a pig lady. Many people are traumatized by it. There was one story in the Weird New Jersey book and it was like from the pig hunter. So who knows who this man was? But he said that like him and his friends, it could be she, I don't know. They said that them and their friends like went to do this in high school. And the girl that they left outside, they found her like cowering, crying in the bushes off the road when they came back. And after that, she never talked to them again. They have no idea what she saw.

• 10:17Corinne Vien?

  Was she volunteering or did they just abandon?

• 10:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They were all going there for this pig lady experience.

• 10:22Corinne Vien?

  Okay, so, okay.

• 10:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Corinne Vien?

  You know what just came into my mind is I was thinking about like if we ever did it. And I do think we have a listener who would volunteer to be.

• 10:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What is it? Oh, for Pig Lady Road?

• 10:34Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What listener?

• 10:36Corinne Vien?

  I think Eric would get out of the car.

• 10:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, Eric would do anything.

• 10:39Corinne Vien?

  Eric is so brave.

• 10:41Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I definitely wouldn't do this one.

• 10:41Corinne Vien?

  He's in cemetery every other day.

• 10:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, when we do campfire stories, which is like our live, come join us on Patreon, tell ghost stories.

• 10:48Corinne Vien?

  Their cameras on, is that like on Zoom and stuff?

• 10:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He is often in a cemetery.

• 10:52Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, he is already, I think Eric would gladly volunteer and we would get to be in the safety of the car and go to the end of the road and back.

• 10:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay, here, here's a poll.

• 11:00Corinne Vien?

  Oh yeah, I did see, I saw like the shape of a woman. She had a pig head. I tried to get a picture of her.

• 11:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He'd be so scientific about it, yeah.

• 11:08Corinne Vien?

  So chill.

• 11:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay, here's a poll.

• 11:11Corinne Vien?

  Or he'd be like, I was really scared. But like,

• 11:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But still like very calm about it, monotone.

• 11:17Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, cooler about it than us.

• 11:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Here's a poll. You're in a car with Corinne and I, driving down Pig Lady Road. Do you sacrifice yourself and stand outside?

• 11:31Corinne Vien?

  Or which one of us do you sacrifice?

• 11:34Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Everyone's gonna say me. I know it.

• 11:36Corinne Vien?

  Because you're braver.

• 11:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Cause I do dumb shit.

• 11:40Corinne Vien?

  Well, you're more likely in the moment to be like, I'll do it.

• 11:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So true.

• 11:43Corinne Vien?

  There's like zero chance I would say I would do it.

• 11:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, no, there's enough evidence of me doing stupid things like that.

• 11:48Corinne Vien?

  Like you'd have to pry me out of the car.

• 11:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And there's no prying you out of the car.

• 11:52Corinne Vien?

  No, and if I get out of the car, 911, I was abandoned. Kidnappers are on their way.

• 11:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay, so these are the different iterations on how you can conjure the pig lady on Pig Lady Road. But again, the road itself is not very consistent. So some people say this road is in Hillsborough, New Jersey. Others say that it's somewhere else. The things that are consistent is that it is in New Jersey and that the pig lady is grotesquely deformed.

• 12:22Corinne Vien?

  I hate the word grotesque when describing someone. It makes me feel so bad.

• 12:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know. Well, that brings us to the origins of this urban legend. Cause it's always like, something had to happen to start like spreading a rumor that kind of bred the urban legend.

• 12:38Corinne Vien?

  Which is part of why I asked if she was clothed. Cause I was just thinking about like all the horrible things and why she's.

• 12:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There are fortunately no, I mean, some of these are violent, but there's no like sexual violence.

• 12:49Corinne Vien?

  Okay.

• 12:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Stories to the origin. Okay. So what inspired this haunting tale that has left countless teens terrified in the middle of New Jersey roads at midnight? There are a couple legends behind the legend. So yes, content warning for violent crimes. But fortunately, the ones I'm about to tell to you, there's no evidence of them ever actually happening. One story tells of a husband who returned home from work and decapitated his wife. When police got there, they never found the woman's head. Again, no truth to this story.

• 13:21Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Another tragic origin story tells of a young girl born in the area who was deemed so ugly and grotesque by her father that he chopped off a pig's head and put it atop his daughter's head. Then people say the reason that if you believe this origin story, that the reason the pig lady haunts the land is that she is trying to steal a more beautiful head, AKA your head. Oh, well, you know what? I don't think that's true because you have to do a lot to even coax her out. That's true. I think she's minding her own business. Yeah. A third iteration of the backstory is that the pig lady in life was the maid of a wealthy tobacco family called the Dukes. And the Dukes did exist. I didn't do a ton of research into them. But the Duke family lived just off this road. And unfortunately, one night, a horrible fire broke out. This part, not sure if that's true.

• 14:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But unfortunately, so goes the legend. This maid was trapped on the second floor and unable to get free from the flames. Her only escape was through the window, so she jumped. But she landed on her face. Oh, no. And she survived, but had so many shattered bones in her face. Her face became very, very disfigured. And it is said that she disappeared to live in the woods that bordered the Duke family estate. And that she continues to haunt this area, hiding during the day, weeping in the darkness of night. Oh, I feel whatever the origin is, it's like, there's no good tale. It's all tragic and sad for a pig lady. But we'll get to the real, what I believe is the real origin, which will be the crux of this episode.

• 14:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But the last iteration of the origin story before what I think is the real origin story is the story of the angry, reclusive pig farmer who was sick of teenagers who continued to show up at her farm and harass her at night. So one evening, when the teens arrived as per usual, this lady farmer grabbed her axe and stomped outside, murdering every single one of the children before burying them in her garden. Oh, my God, that is not the direction I thought you were gonna go. I thought she was gonna put a pig head on to scare them. Nope. Jesus. That escalated quickly. All of these versions are awful and tragic.

• 15:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  From murders to just like belittling women based on their appearance. None of them are, they're not enjoyable. And you don't, you hope that they didn't happen. Yeah. Which fortunately, none of these are based in historical fact or based in like evidence. So where did this urban legend really come from? What if this isn't a story about a disfigured woman? Or about a woman murdered at all? Or about a woman who did the murdering? What if this is about a woman who worked on a pig farm? That was witness to a sensational crime? True crime that is to this day? Still unsolved? And I put unsolved in quotations because you'll see. But that's right.

• 16:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I believe this urban legend of Pig Lady Road in New Jersey? Was born and inspired by the true unsolved? Hall Mills double murder that took place in 1922 in Somerset County, New Jersey? The county that I was born in, by the way.

• 16:30Corinne Vien?

  Damn. This kind of makes sense because it's like? If you were witness to something and then like it was so traumatic? In spirit form after like there's some sort of like melding of? Okay, I'll let you continue because your face is like, ooh.

• 16:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You'll see, like it's not, this case is absolutely wild. Just like the twists and turns that happen. And it's not even going to be how you expect it to be. But almost every single one of those plausible origin stories? Has a piece of the true story.

• 17:06Corinne Vien?

  Okay.

• 17:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So this whole episode is the Pig Lady Road? The urban legend? And how it was inspired by the Hall Mills murder? Of 1922? So it was a chilly Saturday morning on September 16th, 1922? When two local teenagers decided to take a walk? Through their town of New Brunswick? And this couple, they're romantic. So they decide to go to the area that is known as Lover's Lane? They decide to wander the open fields near DeRusi's Lane? And it was there that the girl noticed something strange in the distance at the foot of a crab apple tree? From afar, it looked? Like a lump? Maybe an animal? So curious, they approached it? But as they came closer? They froze.

• 17:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  For what they were seeing was no animal? But a horrific crime scene. Lying beneath the tree were two bodies, lying side by side, carefully arranged, a man and a woman, both of whom were certainly dead. What followed this discovery of the two bodies was a truly sensationalized case of extramarital affairs, jilted lovers, a double murder, cover-ups, power dynamics, disappearing evidence, and guess who is the only witness brave enough to come forward? A farmer who became known as the Pig Woman.

• 18:25Corinne Vien?

  Oh shit.

• 18:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And this murder-

• 18:30Corinne Vien?

  Support your local farmers, protect them.

• 18:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Protect them. Truly, I wish we could protect Pig Woman. But this murder didn't just inspire the Pig Lady Road urban legend, it also inspired F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel, The Great Gatsby.

• 18:43Corinne Vien?

  What? This is so crazy.

• 18:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, it's, it's like bananas.

• 18:48Corinne Vien?

  And I'm like, how the hell did this inspire The Great Gatsby?

• 18:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You'll see. We'll get there. As content warning, this episode does discuss a very real and very gruesome murder. So there, I wanna like, while this is sensational and it became such a sensational case, like, two people did get killed and they were murdered.

• 19:04Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it technically is an unsolved murder. No one has been held accountable for their crimes.

• 19:09Corinne Vien?

  Hmm.

• 19:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is devastating because as you'll see, it's very clear what happened.

• 19:14Corinne Vien?

  Somerset County has a lot of unsolved crimes.

• 19:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Great place to grow up.

• 19:17Corinne Vien?

  Wasn't there the Somerset Man?

• 19:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There was a case-

• 19:19Corinne Vien?

  That's a whole mystery.

• 19:20Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There was a more like recent case too.

• 19:21Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There's a lot of corruption, which happens here too.

• 19:25Corinne Vien?

  Also, like per cap, like New Jersey's most densely packed place, population wise.

• 19:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Is it?

• 19:32Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 19:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Huh.

• 19:34Corinne Vien?

  In the US.

• 19:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Go Jersey.

• 19:36Corinne Vien?

  So there's a lot of people, so there's a lot of crime.

• 19:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Crime.

• 19:38Corinne Vien?

  Opportunity for a crime.

• 19:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 19:40Corinne Vien?

  And unsolved mysteries.

• 19:41Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So, yes, this is just content warning for people who are listening. And there is one photo of a crime scene that I will be showing in the YouTube video, but I will give a heads up before it is placed on screen and it will only be shown once. So, let's go back to the crime scene. It's the early morning of September 16th, 1922, when these two lovers on a walk make the awful discovery of the murder. Naturally terrified, they run from the crime scene and find a neighbor who contacts the police. When the police arrive to the scene, they see a very dramatic display. There are two bodies laying dead on their backs, so face up. The man had been shot in his head once, the woman three times.

• 20:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It was very clear that after the murder, these bodies were deliberately positioned and posed. The two of them were lying with their feet pointing towards the crab apple tree. The woman's head was resting on the man's right arm. Her left hand rested on the man's right knee and a hat had been placed very carefully atop the man's face.

• 20:41Corinne Vien?

  So it seems like the woman was the target because she was shot three times and the man only once. And I would almost assume the opposite in terms of trying to eliminate the bigger threat when trying to murder someone. Like, I would think that you would try to overkill the guy to make sure that he was dead and couldn't come for you when murdering.

• 20:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Interesting theory. The woman had a blood-soaked scarf wrapped around her neck. And had it not been for the gunshot wounds and all the blood, it would have looked like two lovers taking this like very peaceful, romantic nap beneath the tree.

• 21:16Corinne Vien?

  It's really upsetting.

• 21:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  With the gunshot wounds, it was clear that these two were murdered and posed. And the strangest, most dramatic part of this crime scene is scattered around the bodies were scraps of paper and cards. They were love letters that had been torn into pieces scattered amongst these two people. So this is a very like deliberate.

• 21:42Corinne Vien?

  Personal too.

• 21:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Very, very personal. I am going to now show the crime scene in the YouTube video. It was taken in 1922, so it's not like graphic and bloody and it is black and white. But here it is.

• 21:55Corinne Vien?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So it was very, very clear to the police on the scene that this was a purposeful murder and had personal ties, like it was vengeful.

• 22:04Corinne Vien?

  But I mean, it sounds like someone had access to or collected love letters, whether it be between these two or between one of the people in this couple and the person who attacked.

• 22:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Corinne Vien?

  Brought it, premeditated, brought it with them.

• 22:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  This was very premeditated.

• 22:20Corinne Vien?

  It feels like it, right?

• 22:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, totally. So the question is, who are these victims? Who murdered them and why?

• 22:28Corinne Vien?

  Pig lady knows.

• 22:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm so excited. I'm getting my whole body MRI scan from Prenuvo in a couple of weeks.

• 22:36Corinne Vien?

  It's honestly so important. It's like one of those things where getting older and aging has provided me so many anxieties about like what's going on.

• 22:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I recently had some medical issues in my family and everyone in my family is like, "Let's just do everything we can to get ahead and take our own health into our own hands." Prenuvo's whole body scan is a radiation-free MRI designed to help provide a detailed, non-invasive look at your body in under an hour, and it helps evaluate across major organs and systems, including the brain, spine, abdomen, pelvis, and more. Prenuvo's whole body scan can help detect many cancers, aneurysms, and hundreds of other conditions. And they have memberships that bundle MRI scans, blood panels, and a personalized results review to track your health year after year.

• 23:17Corinne Vien?

  To learn more about Prenuvo and get $300 off your whole body MRI, go to prenuvo.com/tgog and use code TGOG. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O dot com slash TGOG. Terms and conditions apply.

• 23:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Receive $300 off Prenuvo whole body scans and executive and comprehensive memberships through January 31st. For full details, visit Prenuvo's website to read their terms and conditions and privacy notice. Prenuvo gifted me a whole body scan. A Prenuvo scan is a screening service, not diagnostic. Diagnosis and treatment are determined by your healthcare provider.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 24:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So the victims turned out to be 41-year-old Reverend Edward Wheeler Hall and 34-year-old Mrs. Eleanor R. Mills, both of whom were married, not to one another. Oh shit. With the identification of the victims, a story began to emerge, and it became clear that the letters that were scattered about the crime scene were secret love letters that had been exchanged between Reverend Hall and Eleanor Mills. The two had been having an affair, cheating on their respective partners. Also, keep in mind, Reverend.

• 24:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Reverend of a church with a steeple, which they're allowed to get married, but. Right, but like unholy. Are they allowed to have affairs? Probably not. Sinner. It seemed clear, and I think we can all agree, even though we are not trained police or investigators, that whoever had done this had reason to be upset and felt wronged by their affair. Mm hmm. The husband of Eleanor Mills and the wife of Reverend Paul. You would think. You would think it'd be a relatively easy case to close. But as I've said, this is still an unsolved murder. So that has not happened. But before we get into the suspects and how this case became so sensational and outrageous, let's talk more about the victims. Reverend Edward Hall was born in eighteen eighty in Brooklyn, New York.

• 25:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And he grew up in a very religious home and eventually followed his own spiritual path, becoming a reverend. At some point, he moves to New Brunswick, New Jersey to serve at Saint John the Evangelist. And he becomes a crucial part of society because people during this time, like nineteen twenties in Somerset County, religion was like a crux of the society. Mm hmm. And he took his job very seriously. He got very involved in like the lives of his parishioners. People confided in him. He would have dinner at people's homes. Like, he was more than just a reverend. He was people's friend. Yeah. The church was a cornerstone of New Brunswick society. And during this time in New Jersey and also kind of globally or like countrywide,

• 26:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  there was a very clear divide between people. Think Great Gatsby where it's like the ultra-rich. Mm hmm. And then the working class. Yeah. The ultra-rich are getting ultra-ultra-rich. And so this is a very divided town. Both of these types of people are going to Saint John Evangelist Church. But Reverend Hall, and he's friendly with all of them, but because the ultra-rich are coming to this church, he starts to rub shoulders with them, not in like a malicious way, but like in a natural, that's his job. He's around these people. He becomes ingrained in their daily lives. He befriends them. And then he married one. In nineteen eleven, Reverend Edward Hall married a woman named Frances Noel Stevens.

• 27:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She was a bit older than he was, and she was from one of New Jersey's wealthiest and most powerful families of all time. And they also had ties to the Johnson family of Johnson and Johnson. So rich, like ultra-rich. There's not a ton regarding the makeup of their marriage, but Edward Hall and Frances Hall, or Frances Stevens, now Hall. Were deemed polite and respectable. But clearly, the marriage wasn't, something was wrong because Edward sought companionship elsewhere with another member of the church, someone of the lower working class part of the church, Miss Eleanor Mills. Eleanor Mills was the complete opposite of Edward's wife, Frances.

• 27:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Eleanor was born in eighteen eighty-eight and grew up in a working-class family in New Jersey. She came from very little.

• 27:48Corinne Vien?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And as a teenager, Eleanor married a man named James Mills, the groundskeeper or the sexton at Saint John's Church. So everyone here is involved with the church, the same church. Together, Eleanor and her husband James had two children and they were living a very modest life, full of financial hardship.

• 28:07Corinne Vien?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is believed that this financial hardship did strain their marriage, but Eleanor was this lively woman. She was a dreamer, she was romantic, she was a part of the church choir. She was like very involved with the community. And it's not entirely clear when Eleanor and Edward first met, but given their involvement with the church, they were around each other often. Edward was the reverend, Eleanor was married to the caretaker and involved in the church choir. So they saw each other a lot, if not every day. And eventually, by nineteen nineteen, these two were having a full-on relationship, both of them cheating on their respective partners. And neither of them are really playing it cool. Parishioners were very aware of this chemistry between Edward and Eleanor.

• 28:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it was so not secret that the morning before they were discovered murdered, the morning after they disappeared, Eleanor's husband made a comment to Edward's wife joking, "Maybe they finally ran off together and eloped." Like, everyone was aware of this affair.

• 29:12Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, so it's like, it's said as a joke, but really, deep down, it's because there is deep suspicion or knowledge that it's happening.

• 29:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Exactly. So their affair was public-ish. And the question is, like, unfortunately, because they are deceased, like, we don't get to know why they didn't just divorce their spouses and why didn't they just go be together. But they continued this affair and they wrote very descriptive love letters to one another. Like, this is a big part of the case, especially because their bodies were discovered with remnants of the love letters, like scattered around their bodies. Eleanor wrote of her longing and her devotion to Edward. Edward wrote of escaping together, of protecting her and their beautiful future together. There are a couple, you can find some remnants of the love letters online. There are a couple that I'm gonna put photos of into the YouTube video. So if you want to pause to read all of them, I'm just gonna read like one little snippet.

• 30:02Corinne Vien?

  It always feels so personal, like

• 30:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They are.

• 30:05Corinne Vien?

  Love letters.

• 30:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But I do love, we've talked about this before, where there's been like times where celebrities or people will read love letters, like historic love letters, and some of them are like very graphic and disgusting.

• 30:18Corinne Vien?

  The like OG sexting.

• 30:20Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. I actually have a bundle of love letters that my great grandmother wrote to my great grandfather. Yeah. They're like handwritten too, it's like so beautiful. Okay, so I'm gonna read one of these. Dear, dear darling heart of mine, only four more days and I will be home again. All your dear letters received gladly, joyfully and raptically. I love you to tell me anecdotes of your childhood days of how you longed for your man even then. Fling your arms now to the wise heavens for the heaven of heaven cannot contain that vast, infinite love that pours more and more out of my heart toward you. You most wonderful lover, we most wonderful lovers. What a heaven we make about it and in us.

• 31:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Can I ever wait for four days to pass?

• 31:07Corinne Vien?

  Wow. It is very lovely. It's very poetic.

• 31:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Very. So yeah, they're having a full on affair. They're exchanging secret love letters, they're hiding, they truly were like hiding the letters in different books in I think the church library. And they like knew what book it was in.

• 31:22Corinne Vien?

  Oh my god.

• 31:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, they would slip off with one another and steal time here and there.

• 31:27Corinne Vien?

  The ceiling, the roof of the church. Under his eye. Damn.

• 31:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, and they would go and like rendezvous together. One of their favorite meeting spots was just off Lover's Lane. The road near DeRoussis Lane, the same place that on the night of September fourteenth, nineteen twenty-two, they took their last breaths.

• 31:49Corinne Vien?

  Oh, and I forgot that they died already. Now I'm upset again.

• 31:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know. And this again, like this is not condoning an affair, but no one should be murdered.

• 31:58Corinne Vien?

  No, no.

• 31:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That's exponentially worse.

• 32:02Corinne Vien?

  I wouldn't say no one.

• 32:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay, murder is wrong objectively.

• 32:05Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And in this case, Edward and Eleanor did not deserve to be murdered specifically. So after Edward and Eleanor's bodies were found on the morning of September 16th, 1922, there was a lot of investigative work taking place. And people were trying to piece together their final moments and the night that led up to the murder. So they were discovered on September 16th, but the last time they had ever been seen was September 14th.

• 32:28Corinne Vien?

  Hmm.

• 32:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So this is the timeline that investigators learned. On the afternoon of Thursday, September 14th, 1922, Frances Hall, Edward's wife, was at home making preserves when her phone rang. It was a call from Miss Eleanor Mills asking for the reverend. She leaves a message with Frances, Edward's wife, and then calls again at 7:00 PM. Then around 7:40 PM, Edward tells his wife Frances he has to go check on Mrs. Mills' medical bill.

• 32:57Corinne Vien?

  Why?

• 32:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Again, not being discreet. But it's also like, there were some sources that he said he went to go check on a parishioner, which was not out of the normal because reverends did make lots of house calls like at any time of day. It wasn't uncommon for him to go check on other parishioners, like before he was having his affair. This was normal for him.

• 33:15Corinne Vien?

  I feel like his reason, like he could have said something else, like, oh, I think that there might be some like marital issues or something. Like, I need to go over, she seems scared for, she seems scared.

• 33:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I do think there's a place, we'll get to it later, but Edward literally paid for Eleanor's medical bills. Like, she had a surgery, that was like a life-threatening surgery that she needed to do, but they, because they're working class, didn't have the money for it. And Edward, married to ultra-rich, has the money and paid for her surgery, which I imagine Frances had to know about.

• 33:44Corinne Vien?

  But Edward's the reverend.

• 33:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, married to the ultra-rich.

• 33:48Corinne Vien?

  Yes. So did he use the church's money then?

• 33:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No, he used his family's money.

• 33:53Corinne Vien?

  He used his family's money?

• 33:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. So I think him saying, I have to go check on the medical bill.

• 33:56Corinne Vien?

  Because the family money, I'm like, if you use the church's money, it would be more hidden than.

• 34:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Sure.

• 34:01Corinne Vien?

  And really, like, you're donating to churches for the churches to also do good back to the community. So if it's to help the different parishioners at certain times of need, like, I think that that is actually good use of the donations and the money, like, you help each other.

• 34:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think the point being is that when he says he has to go check on Mrs. Mills' medical bill. My theory is that it's a medical bill that he has paid for that Frances is aware of. But it's still, if you're having an affair, lie better, you know? Like, don't say you're going to check on Mrs. Mills.

• 34:30Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, like, he, he could have, not the word condoning it, but like, he could have hidden it maybe a little bit better.

• 34:34Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes.

• 34:34Corinne Vien?

  But maybe that was the point, is like, he's trying to.

• 34:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  As true, as close to the truth.

• 34:39Corinne Vien?

  Close to the truth as possible. So it's like, what do you mean? Like, you knew I was paying for her bills.

• 34:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. So anyway, Edward, this is around like seven forty, around eight PM on September fourteenth, Edward grabs his hat and heads out. Meanwhile, Eleanor is at home with her family, eating dinner. And after dinner, she tells her daughter that she's going on a walk. And I thought this was unusual, but I guess it's not, because it's also nineteen twenty. She gets dressed in a blue dress with red polka dots, black silk stockings, brown oxfords, and a blue velvet hat. I'm like, that's not an outfit for walking. But then they didn't have.

• 35:11Corinne Vien?

  In the nineteen twenties.

• 35:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Exactly. They didn't have like Lululemon and sweatpants.

• 35:14Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, yeah. But also in the nineteen twenties, I almost, maybe I'm like forgetting how fashion was. I feel like that's like a later, a later era outfit.

• 35:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, people, there was one thing that said that outfit would kind of blend in. It's not like a standout outfit.

• 35:29Corinne Vien?

  Hmm, okay.

• 35:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So she is trying to like disappear into the crowd or whatever. So she goes on her walk. Of course, neither of them were going or really doing what they told their families they were going to do. They were going to meet up at their favorite lover's lane spot on De Brusse's Lane. The two were never again seen alive. And their bodies weren't discovered until a full day and a half later on the morning of September sixteenth. Upon the discovery, a full investigation began, but so too did a media circus. So almost immediately after police showed up, even before that, so like the couple that found the body, like ran to the neighbor's house, the police were called. All this commotion is very quickly spreading through town.

• 36:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's a huge deal that a murder happened, especially when they find out it's the reverend. Like, again, he's a cornerstone of the society. People are driving up to this location to like, get a look at it, and.

• 36:23Corinne Vien?

  To people everyone knew. And everyone goes to the church, so everyone knows everyone.

• 36:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So the looky-loos and the people who were just curious only got worse as the case became more public. So the police were able to make note of a few things at the crime scene before ultimately the crime scene was trampled and completely contaminated. They determined, one, or they wrote down, made note of, one, the way the bodies were displayed, how performative and deliberate the placement of the love letters were, which was literally a message with a double meaning. They found a thirty-two caliber cartridge case that was discovered near the bodies. They also discovered a two-foot piece of iron pipe. Maggots were already infesting the bodies, indicating stages of decay had already began to happen. And then there was grass trampled near the crime scene, already.

• 37:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So they either start to, the police are like, either this is from the couple who found them earlier, or they've been out here for some time. People have kind of accidentally wandered upon them and scared, were too scared to call it in.

• 37:27Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Or this indicates like some type of fight that happened the night of the crime. Other than that, they didn't have much and never would, because before long, Lucky Lou's were literally stripping pieces of the crab apple tree for souvenirs and trampling all over the crime scene, contaminating it. There was one newspaper article from the nineteen twenties, like of this time, that said that cars were coming in a thousands.

• 37:52Corinne Vien?

  That's crazy.

• 37:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  This truly becomes sensational. It becomes a global story.

• 37:57Corinne Vien?

  Which is why people think- Kind of surprising. Like, I get that. It's like the reverend is having an affair and dies.

• 38:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, it's also this ultra-rich family.

• 38:04Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, yeah, I guess that's one of the missing pieces in my mind.

• 38:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it's these like-

• 38:08Corinne Vien?

  Unfortunately, like, people are murdered. Secret lover, like, this stuff happens.

• 38:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. But I think this is why it's also, and people think it was inspired Great Gatsby, because F. Scott Fitzgerald, who's around during this time, living, he's reading, these are front-page news. And it's front-page news for years.

• 38:26Corinne Vien?

  Wow.

• 38:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And as more details come out-

• 38:29Corinne Vien?

  It's like, basically, like, a celebrity, because they're so rich.

• 38:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, exactly. So, the bodies are taken to the morgue, and when the undertaker removes Reverend Hall's coat, another bullet fell to the floor. He noted discoloration on Edward's right hand and determined that based on decomposition, the estimated time of death was some thirty-six hours ago, meaning the murders took place on Thursday, September fourteenth, nineteen twenty-two, sometime between eight PM and midnight.

• 38:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So they had a timeframe.

• 38:58Corinne Vien?

  And that's like kind of a tight timeframe, like only four hours. That's good. It's not like it's the whole.

• 39:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. Not like the whole day.

• 39:03Corinne Vien?

  Day.

• 39:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Edward had been shot in the head once over the right ear with an exit wound at the back of his neck. So this indicated that someone had shot him from above, like kind of execution style.

• 39:13Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Eleanor.

• 39:15Corinne Vien?

  Someone in the trees or something when they go to meet in the lover's lane.

• 39:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I like your theories. It's hard to like talk about them because I know what happened.

• 39:22Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Eleanor had been shot three times, once between the eyes, another over the right temple, and another over the right ear, all with exit wounds in the back of the skull. And her throat had been cut from ear to ear. So it is like overkill, like you're saying.

• 39:39Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, she was overkill, up close and personal. He was shot from above.

• 39:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 39:43Corinne Vien?

  So it's her husband.

• 39:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You think it's her husband?

• 39:45Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay. Well, this is perfect segue into the suspects. So there wasn't a whole lot of terms of evidence, but the crime scene very clearly had a message. This was about revenge. So authorities were like, yeah, this is going to be an open, shut case. But it's 103 years later and it's still technically unsolved.

• 40:04Corinne Vien?

  Technically, so there's a lot of evidence pointing towards one specific person.

• 40:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So much. It's infuriating. So naturally, their prime suspects are the jilted spouses, the ones who had been wronged and would have the motive to kill them and then display the bodies with the levellers, James Mills and Frances Hawke. Police go to speak to James Mills, who he at first claims he had no knowledge of the affair. And he considered Edward to be a really close friend, so he.

• 40:30Corinne Vien?

  Wasn't he the one that made the joke, though?

• 40:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. So he lies to the police at first and says he had no knowledge. Suspicious, right?

• 40:36Corinne Vien?

  Very suspicious. Why lie?

• 40:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He says that Edward was too good a friend of mine. He would never have an affair with my wife. The reverend had even paid for one of Eleanor's major surgeries for him because he couldn't afford it. So he was like, the reverend's an amazing man. He actually has helped my family. But we all know that Edward did this because he was in love with Eleanor and he didn't want her to die. Despite lying about his knowledge of the affair, James was heartbroken when he found out they were dead. And he had an alibi.

• 41:06Corinne Vien?

  Oh.

• 41:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So on September 14th, the day of the murder, he basically has an alibi from like 5:00 PM till 11:00 PM or later. So at 5:45 on September 14th, he was sweeping at St. John's. And was late for dinner and didn't get home till six fifteen P M. His wife left the house to make a phone call to Reverend Hall and came back before leaving again. When she left for the final time, James asked where she was going and Eleanor said, this is like, I kind of am like, oh, not great for Eleanor to say, but these are the last words she ever said to James. Follow me and find out.

• 41:44Corinne Vien?

  Oh, wow. So they were really not in a good place?

• 41:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No. Choosing not to go follow Eleanor, James watches her leave and then spends.

• 41:53Corinne Vien?

  Did they have kids?

• 41:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They had two kids.

• 41:54Corinne Vien?

  So, okay, so they had two kids and then what about the Reverend?

• 41:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No.

• 41:57Corinne Vien?

  Okay.

• 41:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He watches her leave and then he spends a couple hours on the porch doing woodworking. That is seen, multiple witnesses see him on his porch for two hours.

• 42:07Corinne Vien?

  Blown off steam.

• 42:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And he has kids. They also confirmed that he's at home.

• 42:10Corinne Vien?

  How old are the kids?

• 42:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I don't know specifically.

• 42:12Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. So I'm like, she's spending a lot of time sneaking away.

• 42:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Corinne Vien?

  I can't imagine getting to leave my house until children are like fourteen.

• 42:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know.

• 42:23Corinne Vien?

  I could not escape.

• 42:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So he is working, he goes back inside and then he gets worried about Eleanor's whereabouts. So at ten thirty P M, he decides to go to the church to look for her. On the way to the church, he stops and gets a soda. All of this, he has witnesses. Again, when he gets to the church, he has witnesses. People see him there. He then returns home around like eleven P M and goes to bed. So from the time Eleanor left until about eleven P M on the night of the murder, James Mills has a pretty confirmed airtight alibi. From eleven to twelve, we don't know where he is.

• 42:58Corinne Vien?

  Hmm.

• 42:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But the police are kind of like, I don't think he's responsible. So he also tells the police that, he eventually confesses that he did know about the affair. And he tells the police that the next morning after Eleanor had not come home, so the morning of September fifteenth, he went to work as usual at the church and he ran into Frances, Edward's wife at the church. Frances makes a comment that the Reverend Edward never came home last night, which prompts James to make a joke, perhaps they ran off and eloped. But Frances responds, God knows, I think they're dead and can't come home. Oh, my God. So the police go to talk to Frances Hall.

• 43:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Frances tells the police that she believes robbery was the motive of the murder. Her husband's watch was missing and usually he carries a lot of cash on him, but none were, there was like cents found in his pocket. And she too claimed to have an alibi. She was playing solitaire, a game for one.

• 44:01Corinne Vien?

  A game for one. She is also the one with the super rich family. So she has people that work for her.

• 44:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yep.

• 44:08Corinne Vien?

  And will cover for her.

• 44:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Damn, I didn't think it was her.

• 44:13Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. At first I was like, okay, the only two suspects have to be the spouses.

• 44:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:17Corinne Vien?

  And I was just thinking about like the anger you would have. I just thought most of your anger would be towards your own spouse. Like, yes, you'd be, you'd hate the other person because you'd blame them too for like breaking up your marriage.

• 44:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Corinne Vien?

  But like in the act of like violence, I would assume a lot of the anger would go towards the person that you were closest to.

• 44:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right, because that's like a lot of crimes of passion.

• 44:39Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 44:40Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 44:40Corinne Vien?

  But I guess you're more comfortable, or some people might be more comfortable being more violent towards people they don't actually really know. And it's almost like a mercy kill of the people

• 44:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Corinne Vien?

  that they do love.

• 44:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 44:53Corinne Vien?

  Oh shit.

• 44:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay. I think we can all agree, James is not responsible.

• 44:58Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Our suspicions are planted now on Frances.

• 45:02Corinne Vien?

  Which you know what I'm glad about because then the kids don't have to lose their dad too.

• 45:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  True. So Frances claims that after Edward left around 8pm, she played solitaire for two hours uninterrupted by herself. But that's an alibi.

• 45:15Corinne Vien?

  Uninterrupted.

• 45:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  At around 10pm, her 50 year old brother Willie, who lived with them, came out of his room to say goodnight and then she went to bed. She woke up sometime, she claimed she woke up sometime in the middle of the night and saw her husband wasn't home. So at around 2:30am, she wakes up her brother Willie and they go to the church to look for Edward. Why are they up so late at night?

• 45:37Corinne Vien?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  The church was dark, so they walk past the Mills' house. It's also dark and they return home. The next morning, Frances calls the police.

• 45:46Corinne Vien?

  Was walking past the Mills' house, it's like a normal path to go, I wonder?

• 45:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I don't know.

• 45:52Corinne Vien?

  Or did they purposefully do it to say also like, oh, well, we also happened to walk there to like also give an alibi?

• 45:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, maybe. Or to say like, his house was dark, maybe he wasn't home, you know, I don't know.

• 46:03Corinne Vien?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Anyway, the next morning, she calls the police and asks if they've heard any reports. And there are no reports of Edward at all. A maid at the Hall home does confirm Frances' alibi. And she says that she saw Frances playing solitaire, a maid. So now police are like, I guess her alibi is good too. Yeah. And even if they have confusion, they have to start looking at other suspects. But a maid can easily be paid off by an ultra-rich family. Uh huh. Hold on to that. Okay. Or threatened, not even paid off, just threatened. Yep. You have to just keep that in mind. So police have no other choice. Now they start widening their web and they're like, who else could be suspects?

• 46:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Their next lead suspects are the brothers of Frances Hall. Henry Stevens and Willie Stevens. These two were fiercely protective of their sister. And remember, the affair between Edward and Eleanor wasn't exactly secretive. So the police theorize that maybe Frances' brothers knew of the affair and planned to take matters in their own hands. Or perhaps Frances asked them to take matters into their own hands. The actual logistics are uncertain, but they think that there's motive there. I think they ended up having alibis, like one of the brothers said that he was fishing with like the mayor of another town. But also, keep in mind, they are so well-connected. So they get to get away with things. Then the Ku Klux Klan was also considered a potential suspect because during this time- But these people are white.

• 47:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. But so during this time, they were picking up in the area and beyond their racial crusade that they were doing. They were also known to target people who they considered morally bankrupt. So would they have attacked especially the Reverend- Who's having an affair? Yeah. Who's literally not preaching what you're- Yeah. Doing what he preaches, practicing what he preaches. Yeah, there we go. But that was kind of like an unlikely suspect, but they were like, let's throw it out there. And then they threw out this idea and like theory. Apparently, there was like a rumor of these two Italian men who came through town with their guns, like showing off the guns that they had. So they hate Italians now? New Jersey hates Italians? What? Um, they hated these two Italians. But then there was just like, that was just thrown out, right? It's a rumor.

• 48:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But there were a couple of other suspects, even including the two lovers who had found the bodies. Like at some point, someone connected to them gets arrested. It's

• 48:26Corinne Vien?

  Damn.

• 48:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Drama. And I am skating over some of these details because this is such a big case, but I'm sharing the most like pertinent ones. So nearly two weeks go by without a break in the case. Grand juries are convened, the case is transferred between police departments because the police are theorizing that the bodies were killed somewhere else and then moved to beneath the crab apple tree, which would change like the districts or counties that were involved. Both victims, Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills, were buried and justice was no longer or no closer to being served. I think at some point, the bodies were disinterred and examined again.

• 49:02Corinne Vien?

  Wow.

• 49:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And they saw that Eleanor's esophagus had been slit, almost like she had been like screaming in dissonance or they did that.

• 49:11Corinne Vien?

  Geez.

• 49:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. And by this time, the case had become absolutely sensational. It was such a high profile case with high profile people involved in the media were eating it up, which I think felt very Gatsby-esque, which is why some people are like, oh, F. Scott Fitzgerald, he was reading this story. It naturally inspired his novel. Multiple people were arrested, ultimately never panning out. So things were very, very bleak. But then a witness came forward, someone who had seen everything. A woman, the papers deemed the pig woman, better known as Jane Gibson.

• 49:51Corinne Vien?

  Which how brave of her to come forward.

• 49:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. But keep in mind, the papers immediately call her, like headlines say, the pig woman. Who's going to take that seriously? If papers and media is calling this woman the pig woman.

• 50:03Corinne Vien?

  The pig woman.

• 50:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They're not giving credibility to her at all.

• 50:06Corinne Vien?

  Right. But also like I'm, I'm fearful of her because of the money involved with the family who potentially murdered.

• 50:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I mean, the family probably had media connections and was able to spin the story the way they wanted.

• 50:17Corinne Vien?

  True.

• 50:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it worked. So. Jane Gibson lived with her son William in a converted barn near DeRusi's Lane. She ran a pig farm. And for the days leading up to the Hall Mills murder, Jane Gibson had been dealing with thieves who kept sneaking onto her property and stealing crops. So for like, the couple of days leading up to this murder, Jane had like, decided to take matters into her own hands. Remember the urban legend where it was this pig farmer who was pissed at teens coming to her property? So Jane Gibson decides to like, basically sit at her window late at night to try to catch the thieves in the act. So you can see how it inspired that version.

• 50:54Corinne Vien?

  Okay, so she had reason for staying up and peeking at the windows.

• 51:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Being up late at night, she's literally on the property where this happened. So she is sitting up at night. Now, on the evening of September fourteenth, nineteen twenty-two, that's exactly what she's doing. She's sitting by her window, waiting, hoping to catch these thieves in the act. It's not clear what she initially told the police versus what she shared with news reporters. But in summary, this is like, the gist of what she witnessed. At around nine PM, Jane's dogs began barking. So she is like, I'm gonna catch the thieves. Like, my dogs are warning me that the thieves are in the, in the field now. So she's excited. She looks to the window and sees a man in the cornfield. And she mounts her mule named Jenny. And she starts riding Jenny towards the man in the field.

• 51:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She's gonna like accost and face the presumed thief. But as she approaches, still not close enough for them to see her, she realizes it's not just one man standing in the field, but there are several people standing there.

• 51:59Corinne Vien?

  Also, I'm like glad that she was riding Jenny because if they know that they're by a farm and they hear animals, they're probably not thinking anything of it. They're not thinking to go look.

• 52:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 52:08Corinne Vien?

  There's not random footsteps.

• 52:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right, like, thank God they didn't see her.

• 52:13Corinne Vien?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She then hears a woman yelling, "Don't, don't!", with absolute terror in her voice. So immediately Jane's like, oh wait, these aren't the thieves. Like, something is wrong, something is going on. And so she stops Jenny and she tries to stay quiet in the field and watches. She then counts four figures that she can see near the crab tree. And she claims that she hears another woman's voice ask, very different than the woman who was crying out, "Don't," asking, "How do you explain these notes?" What she heard next was terrifying. A gunshot and a figure slumped to the ground, accompanied with a woman shouting. And according to her, it sounded like the voice said, "Henry," which we'll get to in a minute.

• 52:55Corinne Vien?

  Hmm. Okay, just right now, with what you've painted, or what Pig Lady has painted, my theory is they went, she went with her brothers to confront them. There wasn't the intention to murder them yet, but then her own husband maybe tried to lunge forward for the letters or to do something in response because he's like caught red-handed. His life is flashing before his eyes. He's in total panic mode. He does something and they just immediately shoot him once.

• 53:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Why go out there with guns, though, if they're not intending to murder?

• 53:29Corinne Vien?

  Well, because you never know what's gonna happen.

• 53:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What lovers are gonna do?

• 53:34Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Maybe she didn't go with guns, so maybe her hothead brothers did.

• 53:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Sure.

• 53:39Corinne Vien?

  But then the overkill part, it's like, well, then why would you do that part? Okay, I'll sit and listen.

• 53:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  At least what I believe.

• 53:47Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Soon after, she witnesses a figure that looks female, running away. But then the other figures catch this woman and drag her back to the crab tree before Jane hears three more gunshots. So maybe the overkill is because she was trying to run away.

• 54:03Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Jane returned home terrified and unsure of what to do. But then she like around 1:00 AM realizes that she lost her moccasin. So she decides to like go back in the field to find her other moccasin. You couldn't wait till morning? But now it's around 1:00 AM and she sees or hears a woman crying at the crab tree. And she claimed the figure appeared to be a big lady with white hair. Jane claims that she tried to tell the police this story, but they paid her no mind because, and this is why I do feel bad for Jane and the Pig Woman. Not only is she now being called the Pig Woman because she owns a pig farm, but Jane was, prior to this, she's a poor pig farmer. And she had long been seen as an outcast, like kind of. mocked around town.

• 54:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She lived in isolation. She rode a frickin' mule, which I think is badass, but people made fun of her for doing. She was not the type of person accepted by society. So much so that reporters took to calling her the pig woman.

• 55:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So if that doesn't tell you right away of how people felt about her and then therefore her testimony and her eyewitness story. I don't know what else does. But Jane Gibson stuck to her story. She claimed the people she saw that night were Frances Hall, her two brothers, Henry and Willie Stevens, and their cousin, Henry Carpenter. Remember, she heard a woman call out the name Henry? Mm hmm. So maybe. But wasn't one of her brothers named Henry too? No, Willie and, oh yeah, you're right. Willie, Henry and Henry. Two Henrys, two Henrys. So maybe you're right. Maybe they weren't going out there to murder. But when something happened. Because the Henry was after the first shot. Yeah. So it's like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah.

• 55:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So you would think her story, her literally being a witness to the crime would break this case wide open. It'd be the nail in the coffin. What other phrases could you use? But no. A grand jury basically decided nah, there's no case. How much money did they get for saying that? Good question.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 57:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So here is a case that has little evidence because the crime scene was badly contaminated, and the only real witness is a outcast of society. The pick woman is accusing four people from one of the most prominent and wealthy families in town. Who do you think society and police are gonna side with?

• 57:27Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 57:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Who's bankrolling the police? Who's got them in their pocket?

• 57:30Corinne Vien?

  Well, I guess they can't make her go missing or kill her because then it would be very obvious that they actually did do it.

• 57:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They didn't have to because society already thought of her as odd.

• 57:39Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She's not like this, like, well-respected woman who's coming forward with a story and people are believing her. Immediately, people are writing her off.

• 57:47Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 57:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  For four whole years, this case remains open, going cold, although to me, obvious, who did it? But four years later, in 1926, an arrest and trial finally happened. And the reason why is absolutely bananas. Because a man who was divorcing his wife in 1926 spilled her secrets in the divorce proceedings. So you remember that woman, the maid who saw Francis playing solitaire?

• 58:14Corinne Vien?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, on July 3rd, 1926, her husband, Arthur S. Reel, and her were getting divorced. So Louise Geist had been the maid for Francis Hall.

• 58:24Corinne Vien?

  Okay.

• 58:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And Arthur and her are getting divorced.

• 58:27Corinne Vien?

  And this is just a couple of years later?

• 58:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Four years later.

• 58:30Corinne Vien?

  Four years later.

• 58:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She was working for the family back in 1922 and had confirmed Francis Hall's alibi, which is basically the reason that the juries have been saying there's no evidence to arrest her. Because she has an alibi with a witness. But the truth, as Arthur would tell it in his divorce proceedings, is that Louise lied and was actually involved in the murder plot. According to Arthur, Louise had gotten word that Edward and Eleanor back in 1922 were planning to elope.

• 58:57Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So she told Frances Mills, her employer, what she heard. And Frances, along with her brothers, came up with a plan to murder the two.

• 59:05Corinne Vien?

  Oh, so they did go out with the

• 59:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  According to the husband of an ex-wife. Louise apparently even drove with everyone to the murder. So Louise was in the car.

• 59:17Corinne Vien?

  Which still makes me feel like it wasn't, like they weren't going with the intent to murder. It was like, it's gonna be this intense confrontation.

• 59:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Either way, Louise was paid $5,000 to keep quiet. And

• 59:30Corinne Vien?

  Which is a lot of money in the twenties.

• 59:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  A shit ton of money. And all of this was kept quiet until, like, I imagine Arthur knew of this this entire time. And he must have been so excited to divorce her. He has no reason to make this up as a lie. He is divorcing her and in his divorce proceedings goes, she's a bad woman and a bad person. She was involved in a murder and outs her. So immediately, this is picked up by the news. And just like that, the sensational murder of this case was back in the world, back on front pages. It is painted everywhere. So finally, in July of 1926, the case is reopened or reinvigorated by the police. And a new investigator is in charge. When this new investigator goes to look at the evidence, almost all of it is missing.

• 1:00:14Corinne Vien?

  Corruption.

• 1:00:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Corruption. Yep.

• 1:00:18Corinne Vien?

  Ugh, man.

• 1:00:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Finally, Frances Hall, her two brothers, Henry and Willie Stevens, and their cousin, Henry Carpenter, are all arrested. I think they had, again, I'm not telling you all the logistics here. They had finagled away so that it was like two trials where Frances, Henry and Willie Stevens were all being tried together. And then Henry Carpenter was being tried separately. As expected, the trial becomes a major media sensation. It is so high profile that their main witness, Jane Gibson, the pig woman, as she's continued to be called and belittled in the news, is truly taken to a safe place out of town to protect her. But it's also crazy because by this time in 1926, Sadly, Jane Gibson is dying of cancer.

• 1:01:01Corinne Vien?

  Oh.

• 1:01:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And like, she is on death's doorstep.

• 1:01:05Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She is so close to death and in such bad shape that she is literally brought into court in a bed.

• 1:01:13Corinne Vien?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:01:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And there are photos of it.

• 1:01:16Corinne Vien?

  That's so wrong.

• 1:01:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is, but it's also like another part of this case that feels fictional.

• 1:01:23Corinne Vien?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Because it's like.

• 1:01:24Corinne Vien?

  I can't imagine that happening.

• 1:01:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 1:01:26Corinne Vien?

  Today.

• 1:01:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 1:01:27Corinne Vien?

  Like, go get a tape recorder, have the cross-examination happen there, play it back in court.

• 1:01:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, and I really wish I could say that justice was served. But no, by the end of the trial, which felt fictional, every single one of them was acquitted. Not a single person was found guilty.

• 1:01:48Corinne Vien?

  Which is so crazy.

• 1:01:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Because.

• 1:01:50Corinne Vien?

  Could they not?

• 1:01:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Probably paid off everyone off.

• 1:01:52Corinne Vien?

  Right, exactly. That's exactly it.

• 1:01:55Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Corinne Vien?

  Lack of evidence is really just.

• 1:01:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Missing.

• 1:01:57Corinne Vien?

  Missing evidence.

• 1:01:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Not only that, people are claiming Jane Gibson is a crazy lady. They start saying, not only was she already painted as this crazy lady, but she has cancer. So people are like, her memory is bad because of the cancer. Like, she's not reliable anymore. And her story keeps changing, which was somewhat true. Because over time, her story started to take on pieces of like what had been written in the news too.

• 1:02:20Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, I mean, that's normal with eyewitness testimony. It's not really the most reliable. You have to kind of like rely on what happened in the beginning.

• 1:02:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28Corinne Vien?

  Although, who was the lady that was weeping at 1 a.m.?

• 1:02:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think it was Frances Hall. She was an older, she was an older woman with white hair. And I think she came back to the crime scene and I think like cried to mourn her husband.

• 1:02:41Corinne Vien?

  Hmm. Oh, I didn't realize that they were older.

• 1:02:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, Edward was younger than Frances, so Frances was older. But not only is Jane just completely mocked. But witnesses are going missing. People were paid off. And yet again, let me remind you, at the center of this case, a center of all of this is a family with so much power, so much money, and ultimately influence.

• 1:03:00Corinne Vien?

  So scary. Like, I would not want to say anything.

• 1:03:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No. All of which led to them getting away with murder, literally. I believe they are guilty. Like, I can say that with such certainty, even though officially, they've never been found guilty in a court of law. So unfortunately, this makes the case technically an unsolved murder. And there are a lot more details about the case that I kind of skated over and you can totally read about them in books or online. But all that came from this case was tragedy. And a clear message that if you have enough power or money, you can literally get away with murder.

• 1:03:32Corinne Vien?

  Damn.

• 1:03:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And what else came from this tragedy was an urban legend. The birth of Pig Lady Road. Jane Gibson was made a mockery of. She truly became and was called the Pig Woman. That people, people knew the Pig Woman. They had no idea of her real name.

• 1:03:48Corinne Vien?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That's how much the Pig Woman was used in the news. She stopped being a real person in the public eye. She became a character. So long after the acquittal, people would speak of the Pig Woman roaming her farm, haunting DeRuce's lane, wandering the roads. And they would spew lies. So you can see how these rumors would then like spread throughout New Jersey and turn into the urban legend. Because adding like the Pig Woman with the horrors of Paul Mills murder.

• 1:04:13Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:04:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And like all the different elements. You can see how the urban legend was born.

• 1:04:18Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 1:04:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's wild.

• 1:04:20Corinne Vien?

  Oh, man.

• 1:04:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So, yes, all these stories throughout New Jersey and other towns. Children grew up hearing that isolated country roads with farmland was home to the horrifying Pig Lady. And unofficially, locals started calling those roads Pig Lady Road.

• 1:04:36Corinne Vien?

  Which honestly, the fact that like, it's like, oh, you have to annoy the Pig Lady to get her to come out. It's like, is she being annoyed or is she hearing a ruckus? And her spirit is coming to investigate and be witness again.

• 1:04:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. In addition, locals to New Brunswick do say that the site of the murder and the crime scene where Reverend Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills were found is haunted. That the air feels different, that there are cold spots, that people hear haunting cries or even see apparitions. Thankfully, and probably also a combination of the fact that when you searched this case, it was so sensational and big. The haunting parts are more just like this, like added dramatic detail. I don't necessarily think the hauntings are that common. I hope that they're not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that land does hold memory.

• 1:05:23Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is sad that this story, in real life true crime, inspired F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel, The Great Gatsby. The scandal of infidelity, the class divide, social hypocrisy, and gruesome betrayal. All shaped the like undercurrents of The Great Gatsby.

• 1:05:41Corinne Vien?

  Damn. That is a wild backstory to like the lore of a cryptid.

• 1:05:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Isn't it crazy?

• 1:05:48Corinne Vien?

  The pig lady in New Jersey.

• 1:05:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Corinne Vien?

  Shit.

• 1:05:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I had a lot of fun researching this one.

• 1:05:54Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, this is cra- it just, so this is like more proof when people are like, are you ever gonna run out of stories? It's like, no, how do we never, like, there are some big cases that we still have never covered or heard of.

• 1:06:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:05Corinne Vien?

  That's crazy.

• 1:06:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know, it's bananas.

• 1:06:08Corinne Vien?

  So, did you find this when you were flipping through your old Weird New Jersey book? Oh, I love that.

• 1:06:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Corinne Vien?

  So, do you have it up here?

• 1:06:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, it's on my bed right now. But I have so many Weird New Jersey stories for future episodes now.

• 1:06:19Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:06:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes, I have been inspired.

• 1:06:21Corinne Vien?

  Okay, I picked a story from New Jersey. Dear Corinne and Sabrina, my name is Alana and I live in the Philly suburbs. Uh, I was like, wait a second, where's the New Jersey part? I knew that there was. Okay, I love your podcast. My mom and I listen as we cook and clean. And what I do love about this is she CC'd her mom and her mom had followed up and was like, I just wanted to chime in, say my daughter and I are huge fans of the podcast. We've been listening for like weeks straight.

• 1:06:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What's her mom's name?

• 1:06:47Corinne Vien?

  Uh, Diane. So, shout out to Diane. And sent pictures of them in Salem together, which we won't show online because privacy, because, uh, children.

• 1:06:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Cute. Oh, my own love.

• 1:06:59Corinne Vien?

  Right, isn't this so sweet? I love this. Mom, daughter, a duo. Alana and Diane, we love you.

• 1:07:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Corinne Vien?

  And your pictures are great, but we won't put them, we won't put them on the episode.

• 1:07:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Corinne Vien?

  Okay. My name is Alana. I live in the Philly suburbs. Love your podcast. My mom and I listen as we cook and clean. We're only on episode seventeen currently, and this was back in March of 2024, so I hope that they're a little further.

• 1:07:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They just keep listening to episode seventeen?

• 1:07:21Corinne Vien?

  I'm listening to you as we speak. I'm only 10 years old, but I recently started to love spooky things. And I have a story from about a year ago that I would like to share with you.

• 1:07:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay.

• 1:07:31Corinne Vien?

  My uncle lives in a house in the New Jersey Pine Barrens. So of course, my mom brings up the New Jersey Devil sometimes.

• 1:07:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Home to the New Jersey Devil and a home to the mafia dumping ground.

• 1:07:43Corinne Vien?

  Oh, yeah. Back then, I hated scary things. Back then, a year ago. But when you hit 10, you're brave.

• 1:07:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  A long time.

• 1:07:50Corinne Vien?

  Back then, I hated scary things and I got really scared. I was jumpy the whole way there, which was about a three hour drive away. I went to sleep as soon as we got there, because by the time we got there, it was so dark in my uncle's backyard as a forest, and I was really scared.

• 1:08:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh.

• 1:08:03Corinne Vien?

  The next morning, I wasn't so scared, and I kind of forgot about it all. We went out to do some shopping and do some fun stuff until it got dark. When it got dark, we went to our car, and my mom turned on her navigation system and we started to drive. All of a sudden, the navigation system rerouted and told us to go down this access road.

• 1:08:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Nope.

• 1:08:23Corinne Vien?

  That goes straight through a cemetery.

• 1:08:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Why did it all of a sudden reroute?

• 1:08:28Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:08:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I feel like it's taking you to the 11 mile road.

• 1:08:30Corinne Vien?

  Seriously. So creepy. And like, just the amount of like, lost time people have in the Pine Barrens, like, just getting trapped. No cars were in front of us. No cars were behind us. So it wasn't trying to help us avoid traffic, but it definitely wanted to reroute us and drive us into the cemetery. I don't know if ghosts were trying to get us, or maybe the Jersey Devil hacked our navigation system, but I got really scared and I started to cry and tell my mom I just wanted to go home. It was 11 at night, so she refused. We had to go back to my uncle's house.

• 1:09:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We're not driving three hours right now.

• 1:09:02Corinne Vien?

  So I just watched my iPad until I eventually fell asleep. When we got back home, my mom researched that cemetery and found out that some of the pilgrims from the Mayflower were actually buried there.

• 1:09:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Whoa.

• 1:09:11Corinne Vien?

  The cemetery is very old and part of the Cold Spring Presbyterian Church and was built in the 1700s. I will never forget how horrified I felt that night. I hope this never happens again, but I do have to go back in the summer. Keep feeling spooky. Your fan, Alana.

• 1:09:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Alana, we need to know what happened in the summer.

• 1:09:30Corinne Vien?

  I know.

• 1:09:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What's the update?

• 1:09:32Corinne Vien?

  Maybe it was like-

• 1:09:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Especially now that Alana is like into it all.

• 1:09:35Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, and I don't know what time of year this was either when they went last time. Cause she had sent it in March of 2024, but it was about the year before. So I don't know if like summertime's less spooky, if this also happened during summertime.

• 1:09:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think the Pine Barrens are spooky year round.

• 1:09:49Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Ooh, how creepy though. It's like late at night and you're, it's like-

• 1:09:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know.

• 1:09:54Corinne Vien?

  Reroute, shorter route through the cemetery.

• 1:09:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Through this access road.

• 1:09:58Corinne Vien?

  Opposed to the main road where no cars are driving and there's no traffic and no accidents? Taking me deep into like the woods?

• 1:10:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That's scary.

• 1:10:06Corinne Vien?

  Hell no.

• 1:10:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Anytime you're in like that type of landscape and GPS reroutes you, I don't trust it.

• 1:10:12Corinne Vien?

  No.

• 1:10:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm like, something is trying to trick me.

• 1:10:15Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Well, Alana titled it Possessed GPS.

• 1:10:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think so.

• 1:10:20Corinne Vien?

  It definitely was. Weird New Jersey.

• 1:10:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We love ya.

• 1:10:23Corinne Vien?

  Keep it weird.

• 1:10:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's a part of my chemical makeup. I was born there.

• 1:10:27Corinne Vien?

  This is why you are the way you are.

• 1:10:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is.

• 1:10:28Corinne Vien?

  I mean, it explains me a little bit too, cause Vermont's little slogan is like, keep Vermont weird.

• 1:10:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Corinne Vien?

  Where the weirdos live.

• 1:10:34Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Corinne Vien?

  The Northeast.

• 1:10:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, we love you all and we especially, I, this episode is dedicated to all you weirdo New Jerseyans, weird New Jerseyans. And if you have any paranormal encounter, whether it's from Weird New Jersey or literally anywhere, or from anyone, please email it to us at [email protected]. We have Patreon where you can get episodes one week early and ad free, plus bonus content, plus campfire stories where you join us live to tell us your ghost stories, plus witch class, plus book club. I'm losing my ability to speak because there's so much over there. But yeah, it's a lot of fun to join us.

• 1:11:14Corinne Vien?

  And if you just want access to only the ad free episodes one week early, you can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts to get that one week early.

• 1:11:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yep. We love you all.

• 1:11:23Corinne Vien?

  Shout out to Jamie and Emma. We love you too. Thanks for being a part of our team.

• 1:11:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And we will-

• 1:11:29Corinne Vien?

  See you on the other side.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.