1016: More Bots Than Humans

Wes, Scott, and CJ break down the latest web dev news. From AI agents and coding tools to Deno Desktop, Nub, and predictive UX. They also discuss bot-filled social media, remote work debates, and a slick 3D bookstore experience. Show Notes 00:00 Intro 00:35 Welcome to Syntax! 01:43 Codex Design Smell 03:55 More Bots Than Humans Bot vs Human Post-smoke test software era 12:38 Social Media Is Nothing But Bots 19:55 Brought to you by Sentry 20:38 Vercel Launches Agent Framework Introducing Flue Flue Introducing eve eve 36:14 We Want Local AI Agents 47:22 Deno Desktop Deno Desktop App 01:01:40 Nub Replaces Bun Introducing Nub Nub 01:06:04 ForsightJS Predicts User Intent ForesightJS v4 PointerEvent: getPredictedEvents() method 01:12:43 Is WFH Fraud? Remote work is fraud 01:18:38 3D Book Store Explorer 3D Book Store Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now I'm just super skeptical when I'm on Reddit and I see a post that gets a bunch of upvotes, or I go to the comments and all of a sudden I'm reading comments that like I completely disagree with, or is also just like a overdone take. We're just interacting with bots on social media as well, which is a totally another problem as well.

• 0:17Wes Bos?

  People think that Reddit is this beautiful place, but it's not. It's, it's starting to get absolutely awful. Where do we now turn? I guess it's friends? Do we need friends now? Is that what it is?

• 0:35Wes Bos?

  What's up everybody? Thanks for joining Syntax Weekly. Tons of news has happened in the last seven days since you've joined us. We've got a lot to cover. We're gonna cover, there's more bots than humans on the internet. That certainly happened quicker than I thought. A couple new agent frameworks out. Versell has released their own agent framework called Eve, and Fred Schott, who's a creator of Astro, also released kind of a similar one. We're gonna be digging into those and seeing what they're at. Dino released an Electron type thing, a Deno desktop, which is really nifty, and a whole bunch of other stuff. My name is Wes. With me as always is CJ and Scott. How you doing today, guys?

• 1:14Scott Tolinski?

  What's up, what's up, what's up?

• 1:16Speaker 00

  You're good. Ready.

• 1:18Wes Bos?

  All right. Well, let us know down in the chat if you have anything else that we should be covering as well. We'd love to talk about it after this. We've got maybe 20 different things that we want to cover today. But should we get into the first one that we have here? Scott, more bots than humans?

• 1:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, more bots than humans. The bots are taking over. And actually, real quick, guys, I want to show you something real quick before I even mention this chart here. I was having Kodex work on some. I haven't used Kodex in a little while. And you know, Kodex has a very specific design smell to it, right? So, check this out. This is the most Kodex-assed design of all time. Like, this just like nails the Kodex aesthetic. The uppercase, the gradients, the unnecessary labels.

• 2:08Wes Bos?

  Yeah, letter spacing.

• 2:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Did you ask it for orange too, or did it just choose orange?

• 2:13Scott Tolinski?

  It just chose orange. It was like teenage engineering. Sure, let's throw some orange on this thing. But it's like, yeah, that's it. The cards within cards within cards within cards. It's, it's just so classic here. Uh, this is the, the modern stink of, uh, codex these days.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  I'll say I skipped over sharing some sites today because they looked exactly like this. And I was like, just put some effort in, like.

• 2:35Scott Tolinski?

  Just, come on.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:37Wes Bos?

  It's, it's too bad because this is not like a, it's not a bad looking design, right? Like it's not, uh, if, if you would have shown me this maybe a year ago, I would have been like, this is a decently clean sign. It's just the fact, and I, I know we talk about this so much, but it's like, they all look exactly the same. And my brain just immediately goes to, this might not be very good. Because knowing where it's, it's come from, which is kind of, we're kind of in a weird spot with all this right now.

• 3:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes. Uh, I, I made this, in contrast to the bots taking over things. This is made by a bot for a human because I didn't feel like I was getting enough out of my OPXY. And so I have the whatever hundred pages of manual for it. And I wanted it to build me individualized lessons to tell me what buttons to click on. And it even does like the overlay on what buttons here to do what.

• 3:32Wes Bos?

  What's an OPXY, Scott?

• 3:34Scott Tolinski?

  It's a sequencer by teenage engineering. Um, it's a little sequencer. So it's, it's very powerful and dope. Um, and I'm good at it, but I'm not great at it. So I was like, I wanna, I wanna like find into some of the functionality that's in the instructions that I, I'm not going to read an instruction booklet. You kidding me? Yes. So let's talk about this bots versus humans. The CloudFlare folks have had this radar dot cloudflare dot com for a little bit. And recently, I think in the past couple of weeks here, they've added this bot versus human traffic to show you what percentage of traffic going through CloudFlare is a bot versus a human.

• 4:14Scott Tolinski?

  And what's shocking here is that at some points it's as high as 63% bot getting up into, that's 63% of the traffic coming through as just.

• 4:27Scott Tolinski?

  From bots, and this is in the past seven days. The chart doesn't go back that far because of when they released this. Ooh, unknown error, that's always fun. I actually found this radar dot cloudflare dot com to be an interesting page anyways regards to just general internet traffic. But the bot stuff, the bot versus humans, has been making the rounds in terms of

• 4:51Scott Tolinski?

  the internet is now basically just a bunch of bots talking to each other with 40% of it being human interaction. Which feels like it's been something that people have been talking about for a long time, but I mean, here it is in a trend through Cloudflare.

• 5:08Wes Bos?

  How much of that do you think is legitimate web scraping that's just simply being piped into a prompt? Like, like the other day I was driving and my daughter asked when she could go to this like local ninja place. So I just, I just asked, we have Grok in the Tesla, so I just say, hey, when is the, what's the hours for that? And it goes off, it fetches the website, it parses it out, and then it tells us what the hours are. And I was like, that's like, that's a legitimate use case for this type of thing, because otherwise it would have just gone to the website directly. But how much of it, do you think it is like that legitimate part? And how much of it do you think is like people just simply just scraping it to try to figure out the training models or doing whatever other nefarious things?

• 5:52Scott Tolinski?

  I mean, I think it's all interesting because somebody asked this question directly to Matthew Prince, or at least they responded to it. And Matthew Prince, he's the CEO of Cloudflare, responded with, "Bot, crawler, agent are all synonyms depending on whether or not you want them to be a good or bad thing." Norma, normative, normatively. Man, I can't say normative. I can't even.

• 6:16Wes Bos?

  Normatively. That's a word I can say.

• 6:19Scott Tolinski?

  Is it a word?

• 6:19Wes Bos?

  My specifacity right here, yes.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  I don't even think it's a word.

• 6:22Scott Tolinski?

  Basically, the, the idea of bot crawler agents are all synonyms depending on if you want them or not. And, and I think that is, yeah. It is funny because people were asking for distinguishing between agents and scrapers and stuff. And it's like, it's just all, doesn't matter, it's all not human, you know?

• 6:41Wes Bos?

  Man, on the same thing, I was looking at my like bot traffic a while ago and I was actually seeing it sort of come in at real time. And I noticed that there was a lot of bot traffic coming from Apple. And this was probably six months ago. And now at the least, the most recent Apple announcement, they announced like, oh, they have, they said in a roundhouse way, we have our own like, like web index, meaning that like, like Apple now has a search, search engine, essentially just a search engine. And I wonder how many other people are trying to build their own search engines because not that they want to become a search engine, but everybody needs an index of the web now, because it's

• 7:25Wes Bos?

  very expensive to have to like, pay Google or Bing or one of these other people that have like an index of the internet and know where all the things are. Because essentially, as smart as this AI stuff is, it's not very good unless you like pipe real time websites into it that have actual real data.

• 7:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny, Wes, I set up on graffiti. I set it up so that when when humans visit the site, it gives you just normal HTML. But when agents visit the same URL, instead of doing like an llms.txt, it returns just markdown for the agents. So I essentially built a web surface, a client just for agents using the same code. Yeah.

• 8:11Wes Bos?

  Cloudflare even has like a setting for that as well. When an agent visits your website, should it just serve markdown? I think like you may lose some, you obviously lose some interaction there, right? It's like markdown is simply just straight up text. But for docs, that's, that's perfect.

• 8:27Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I mean, for doc sites, that's really what it was. Yeah. So. How are we feeling about this? I, I, I noticed one thing that was really funny here. This tweet shows the interest over time in the word smoke test. Or the phrase smoke test, which is a phrase I never used before AI. And now every other chat AI is like, well, do a smoke test for it.

• 8:52Wes Bos?

  Quick smoke test, yeah.

• 8:53Scott Tolinski?

  Smoke test, hand wavy, or like, what are some of the other ones that it's like, that we're going to see interest over time shoot up other than smoke test here?

• 9:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah, what there, there was a list of them I saw the other day. I'm, I'm forgetting, I'm blanking. Maybe the chat can help us out what those were. But there's certainly those sayings that you hear over and over again.

• 9:14Scott Tolinski?

  Over, yeah.

• 9:15Wes Bos?

  Are, are just peaking and they're, they're sort of like a smell, which sucks. It's, it's, it's the same thing with the M dash, right? Like it sucks for people who actually did use that type of writing, or the, the type of person who now I hear it all the time. It's not this, it's that. And it sucks because like that was, that was a good way of, of writing. And that was a kind of an interesting way of speaking. But now as soon as I hear that, the alarm bells in my head start going off. And it's the same thing with the web design. Like it's not a bad thing, just that a fact that it's overused.

• 9:49Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Wes Bos?

  Is, is making me think maybe it's not trustworthy or maybe it's not good anymore.

• 9:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. CJ, what are your thoughts here?

• 9:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, just getting back into bot traffic. Like I did, it definitely has to do with the fact that most people's interface to the internet now, or to the web is a chat interface. So whether that's Google AI or Claude or Gemini or whatever else. So I, I do think a lot of that traffic are these chat agents making requests to sites on behalf of users. And that has its downsides because now users aren't clicking directly through to sites. Right?

• 10:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  I mean, the example that you gave earlier, Wes, was like, you're just looking for the hours for something. And normally maybe you'd pull up Google Maps and you'd see the place, or you'd maybe go to their site. But now all of that's been skipped and you just got the information directly from an agent. So I think that's definitely where a lot of it's coming from. I kind of want to talk about like, The bots that we interact with on social media as well.

• 10:45Scott Tolinski?

  Well, actually, real quick, CJ.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 10:47Scott Tolinski?

  To back that up, the new Siri, I don't know if this will be able to be seen, but the new Siri doesn't, normally on iOS, when you pull down to do a search, Safari is like the number one thing, and if you were to just search and hit search, it would do a search on Safari. But now, it's not even an option. It only lets you do Siri, so.

• 11:09Wes Bos?

  And Siri's probably searching the web.

• 11:12Scott Tolinski?

  Right.

• 11:12Wes Bos?

  That's where a lot of that Apple traffic comes from.

• 11:15Scott Tolinski?

  Sources, but it's not a standard. I hope they fix that, because that sucks, I'll just say that.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:21Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  But it is, I mean, it's a sign of the times, and like, this is also why, kind of why the indie web is dying. Like, no one is directly browsing websites anymore. We're all talking to, I mean, I'm not. I'm trying my best to, I have an RSS feed, there's no algorithm. Like, I'm trying to click directly on things, but it's, it seems to be the trend. And I think if, if everyone's using an Apple phone or an Android phone, then that's two of the biggest companies that have control over this stuff. And they're basically our gateway into the web. It's basically the walled garden problem that we had in the early days of the internet. But now, they're basically just taking content that's on the web and telling us what it is, instead of showing us that content directly, so.

• 12:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I, I feel that way about like blog posts and things like that. I don't, I don't put stuff on my website anymore, hoping people will stumble across it. I put it out there, hoping that it will be consumed by these agents. And there's, there will probably be good output of that at some point, you know? Like, if you are the definitive resource for something specifically, I'm sure that we can get like listens or whatever out of that. But it is a crazy world to think about all of this.

• 12:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 12:34Wes Bos?

  But tell me about the the social media bots thoughts there CJ.

• 12:38Speaker 00

  And I'm sure you all have seen them too, but now I'm just super skeptical when I'm on Reddit and I see a post that gets a bunch of upvotes, or I go to the comments and all of a sudden I'm reading comments that like I completely disagree with, or is also just like a overdone take. And you'll start, you'll start to see the signs. So especially on Reddit, anybody that has like a generated username, and the thing is like, these aren't bot-generated usernames. It's like the default username that Reddit gives you when you sign up now, but it's like a noun, verb, number. But you see so many of these accounts in the comments and also submitting, like if you pay attention to like r slash programming humor, or even like r slash JavaScript, there

• 13:20Speaker 00

  are certain posts and certain memes that show up again every few months, and they get a bunch of traffic. And if you go to see who actually posted it, it's an account that does nothing but like repost things from like a year ago or two, two years ago.

• 13:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  And then you see the same thing in Instagram comments, like a number of comments that are just like from bots telling you to follow their accounts, or like trying to get engagement. So yeah, we're just interacting with bots on social media as well, which is a totally another problem as well.

• 13:50Wes Bos?

  It's, it's nuts. So on the Hamilton Reddit, which is like where I live, the other day, there was somebody that says, I just graduated and my parents were unable to make my graduation, so I'm feeling kind of down. I'm wondering where I can get late night sushi. And

• 14:09Scott Tolinski?

  By God.

• 14:10Wes Bos?

  And the people were chiming in, here are great spots for late night sushi. And then you went to that person's, oh no, you didn't even go. If you went to the Toronto subreddit, six hours before that, the exact same story from a different account was like, hey, I just graduated. I'm looking for a spot to get late night sushi in Toronto. And it's like, wow, that was clearly like somebody who owns a late night sushi restaurant in both of these cities is trying to drum up because like All AI is, is just something summarizing Reddit threads. You know, like, that's all it is. And now you have to make this fodder. And if you want people to come to your sushi restaurant,

• 14:55Wes Bos?

  you have to make this fodder on Reddit that will show up when people search it. And it just was just like, ugh. People think that Reddit is this beautiful place of like unmolested opinions, but it's not. It's, it's starting to get absolutely awful.

• 15:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's people bragging about creating, like, I created a, an open claw bot that has successfully gained X amount of karma on Reddit with, you know, whatever. And it's like, God, do you really have to do that? Like, do you have to do that? You know?

• 15:26Wes Bos?

  Just, yeah. Oh, people will always use it for the awful stuff. And I, I think unfortunately, that means that we're just going to adapt. I, I don't know what it will look like, but like I used to be able to say, yeah, I can, I'll go on Reddit and ask for some real people. You know, there's not this SEO spam that would, that's going to be on like, like you used to, if you wanted to like, say, I'm going to New York. Where should I eat? And you would just Google like best restaurants in New York. You would get pages and pages of these, like this blog spam of like SEO keyworded to the, to the, the ceiling, right? Now, so I just like never trusted travel blogs anymore. And then you would go to Reddit and ask where, where people were. And now you can't trust Reddit.

• 16:11Wes Bos?

  So like, like where do we now turn for this type of stuff? That you are unable to have people like molest and change it. I guess it's, I guess it's friends? Do we need friends now? Is that what it is?

• 16:24Scott Tolinski?

  Do we need a social network of people that you know, who have been to places that can recommend you things that you actually like or will like? Yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. It's all very crazy to me. I wonder, as a question to both of you, how high do you think this will get? So the high that I'm seeing in here is like 63% bot usage over human usage, which would be like a 30 or a, yeah, like a 36%. So how high do you think this bot number is going to go? Do you think we'll hit 70% this year at some point?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  This year? Probably. But I think long-term, if nothing changes, then 90%, 95%.

• 17:05Wes Bos?

  But

• 17:05Scott Tolinski?

  Crazy.

• 17:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah, once this is in the iPhone, it's gonna be everybody using it, right? Once people can simply just press a button and talk to their phone to get answers like I the how often I use it now that it's in our my car? Unbelievable. Um, and I'm because like Siri didn't really have a good one. The like, we asked Google Home a lot when we're at home, how what things are. Um, and it's gotten a little bit better now that it has like the the AI built into it. But like now that it's in my car, because that's that's like a huge use case where you're just driving and you're wondering something and you just press the button, you ask your

• 17:46Wes Bos?

  car these questions like I think it's aside from it ruining the internet, it's a great experience and I really enjoy it. So I think like it's gonna it's gonna catch on huge. Regular people are gonna be doing this like like crazy.

• 18:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, speaking of which, guys, uh, before we move on to the next topic here, uh, things getting better, you're just talking to browsing. I have a robot coming, so if you see me sprint out of here, it's because my robot has arrived. It says it's going to arrive sometime before noon, uh, mountain time here. So there's a good chance that a robot will be delivered to me live on stream here. So just

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Fascinating.

• 18:26Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Are we gonna get any hints? Is it a life size robot? It does it?

• 18:30Scott Tolinski?

  It's it's the Reechy Mini, so I think they're about like this this big. And he has camera. It's like a Google Home where you can hook it up to any AI provider. You can build apps for it and it has a camera and it can move and look at things. So it does not have arms and it does not have legs.

• 18:48Wes Bos?

  Oh, good.

• 18:49Scott Tolinski?

  But but it can

• 18:50Wes Bos?

  Don't give robots arms. No, at least don't give them thumbs.

• 18:53Scott Tolinski?

  Don't give them thumbs. Yeah, they can. Yeah. And certainly don't give them spider legs or or don't do that. I don't want that. I don't even mind spiders, but I don't want a robot with spider legs. That's right.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:06Wes Bos?

  All right, let's move on to the next one we have here, which is...

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Before we do that, I must say, um, proof that we, there are still real people on the internet. We got raided by the AOA channel, so shout out to AOA and uh, thank you. They brought over 19 viewers over on Twitch, so we appreciate that.

• 19:23Wes Bos?

  Hey!

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Um, and if you are a real person watching in chat, type one in the chat right now. Because...

• 19:30Wes Bos?

  If you're a robot, type zero.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you're a robot, type zero. Um, and so yeah, thanks to AOA, bringing over real people, not bots. We appreciate you. Uh, and if you're just joining us, this is Syntax Weekly, so we go live every Monday to chat about news, new libraries, the world of web dev, things we're interested in, that kind of stuff. And um, yeah, that's what we're doing. We just talked about how bots are taking over the internet. And uh, one bot that I will let take over the internet is Seer Bot, because everything we do here is brought to you by Sentry. So uh, if you've got code running in production, throw Sentry on there. Any errors that happen get reported back to the Sentry dashboard and Seer can chime in automatically and fix those bugs. Automatically add a PR and uh, you don't have to do anything, just set it up.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  So uh, sentry.io forward slash syntax, you can get two months free on the team plan.

• 20:23Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, CJ, I'm doing a deep dive into self-healing software on Sentry right now. Seer, a big part of that, obviously, so shout out to the folks over at Sentry working on self-healing software. I love it.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Love to see it.

• 20:36Wes Bos?

  Sick!

• 20:36Scott Tolinski?

  Well, let's get into the next one. Who's up next?

• 20:39Wes Bos?

  Yes, I got it here. Uh, last week, two agent frameworks were announced. So one from Vercel called Eve and a one from uh, Fred Schott, who was the creator of Astro, um, called Flu. And I haven't tried them out yet, but from like, I've been kind of looking at a lot of these like, that are popping up where people are like, we need something like NextJS or like, like we need like the easy framework for creating agents. And these are sort of two shots at that, right? And the idea with an agent is that...

• 21:20Scott Tolinski?

  I think there's one shot, one Fred shot.

• 21:22Wes Bos?

  One Fred shot and one Vercel shot at this type of thing. And I think this is kind of interesting because like if you think about like, like a lot of your workflows right now, you have like, you probably have like some MCP servers, right? And then that's how it can like access things. You probably have some skills which sort of describe what it can do. Or like how to approach things. And then maybe have like a bunch of like scripts or CLI's that it can use to like interact and go back and forth with things, right? But like the ability to like, package that all up, I don't think has been totally cracked just yet into like a nice tidy little agent.

• 22:06Wes Bos?

  And I think like, these are, these are kind of two interesting tackles at them. So the Versal one, the agent one, they say an agent is a directory, which I really like this because like, I was very much, I very much like the NextJS approach of like, just putting folders or files in the specific folders and then you can route them. By the way, update, Scott just went to the door. Robot is incoming. Very excited about that.

• 22:38Wes Bos?

  In the agent, you have an agent dot TS file, which is like, kind of like your main configuration there. And I'm assuming inside of that, you would also declare the specific, yeah, right here, the model that it runs on. So if you have a specific agent that doesn't need to use a very expensive model, it's nice to be able to pin that agent to us, like maybe a cheaper model or a model that it's, it's very good with. You get your instructions dot MD and then inside of that, you have tools.

• 23:10Wes Bos?

  So if you've got a bunch of scripts, I have seen a lot of people like shipping like scripts with their skills because a skill is a directory. So they'll often have like a skill that MD, but they'll also give it like, like some, some JavaScript that it can run, which is kind of neat. Then you have your skills, your subagents, your channels. So this is kind of where you're getting into like, almost like open claw territory of like, How does this thing connect to different like in how, in what way are you interacting with it? Right? Is this interacting with over Slack? Are you hooking up with Telegram? You know, did you build your own interface for it? Is there webhooks, all those types of things?

• 23:54Wes Bos?

  And then schedules as well? If you want to like, put some cron jobs in there. So, pretty nifty. I'm curious to see, what do you guys think?

• 24:05Scott Tolinski?

  I think the big difference here is the Open Agent Framework versus the Waldgarden Framework. And so if you're picking one.

• 24:15Wes Bos?

  Which one is Open Agent?

• 24:17Scott Tolinski?

  The one that is literally listed as the Open Agent Framework, which is the Flu Framework. That's like their heading on their site is.

• 24:25Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 24:26Scott Tolinski?

  Open Agent Framework.

• 24:27Wes Bos?

  Open Agent.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Is it some kind of specification that makes it open?

• 24:31Scott Tolinski?

  So, well, interestingly enough, CJ, the standard agent spec is a agent spec, which is not related to Flu, but another one of these. Standardagentspec.org. And that is not public yet. I do have access to it. And it again, it solves a lot of these same things, which is sandboxing the connected system between agents and subagents, easily getting it up, hosting somewhere, and just like the tools and how it all connects to optimizing for small tasks, for smaller models, etc. So, yeah, I don't know. I think they're all interesting.

• 25:10Scott Tolinski?

  One thing that I have found is that the sandboxing makes it kinda, obviously the sandboxing makes it inherently safer, but it also makes it inherently less useful out of the gate than something like Hermes or OpenClaw, which they're different systems for different things, right? You would use this as your API for agents and stuff, but I wouldn't use this as a personal assistant the same way I would like a Hermes or an OpenClaw.

• 25:40Wes Bos?

  I don't know. I, I, I, it's kind of interesting that we have all these different tools or your different apps for different use cases. I think we're going to end on just like, you just, you just have one thing. And like, sure, you can move your skills and whatever between these agents if you really want to. But I think that being able to pack them up nicely and just have like a single thing that you do all of your interactions through. Like right now, I'm even today, I've used Cursor, Claude Code. I use the Gemini chat interface to make an image. I use ChatGPT. And I was like, why am I bouncing around through all of these different things? You know, I really should just be doing one single thing.

• 26:21Wes Bos?

  The reason why it wouldn't be Claude Code is because maybe it's just like, that's only anthropic models. You want like some open framework that can connect to all of these different things.

• 26:33Scott Tolinski?

  I, that's what I was liking about the standard agent one. I know I haven't used flu yet, but as so my experience with these is with that. And one of the things you can do is you can create essentially your bundle of agents, subagents, tools and whatever. And essentially zip them up and share them with somebody else. So you could create like a workflow of connected subagents, different models, different tools. Wrap it all up, drop it into somebody else's and get them using it too, right? Like we could make a syntax one and it would be effortless to share that amongst each other.

• 27:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You just, you pop your API keys in and bam, we've got the syntax agent. And then we're all using the exact same one. I think that's probably what it will be is you join a team. You got your own personal agents, but then you also have like agents for your team. Maybe there's a customer support one, you know, and, and what interface you use to work with that. It really doesn't matter. Interesting thing about this is that there's, it comes with a front of UI for, for doing them. I don't think. I think that the Versal one is simply just like a like a software package, but Flu takes it even a step further to give you a UI for all of your, which I don't know. What do you think? Do we need that?

• 27:51Scott Tolinski?

  Hermes has got a UI and it's pretty dope. I ended up making my own, but it still has. It still has one and it's dope. One thing I really do, I I've actually been using Hermes to code lately. And the thing that I really appreciate about it is like the memory and things that you can get with agent systems like this.

• 28:07Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Scott Tolinski?

  But Flu, yeah, I don't, I, yeah, I don't know. What were people, what would people be using Flu for? Would they be using it to code with? Are they using it to have as their their AI service that is being interacted with for products? Are they like, what are what are people using this stuff for? Is it for personal use? Is it as a business use case? Like, what is it?

• 28:31Wes Bos?

  I I think I think the idea is that it will work with everything. I think the idea that you would have a single harness that you're using for coding and it's integrated with all of your things and you sort of have this like computer almost that just hooked up to everything that you need. And you can go ahead and do it and you've just got it all dialed in. Whether that will happen or not, because like I I just with all of this AI stuff, I just keep going back to will regular people use this? Like, or are regular people just going to simply type in the chat GPT boxes? I even think about that with like how much better using like Claude Code

• 29:13Wes Bos?

  or or Codex or any of these like CLI ones that have access to everything? How much better those are than just what people are using in ChatGPT? Because often you hear people being like, I don't really like AI. It's not very good. And it's just like, well, you don't, you're just using the like 10% watered down version that's in this walled garden of ChatGPT. You don't realize how actually awesome it can be if you get these things dialed in.

• 29:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that's why I like my Hermes setup that I have set up for Courtney. I mean, it is, it's using models for specific things, but it's all very tuned. And so now when she uses it, it feels like she's using ChatGPT, but it is, it's using the models or the the prompts or context seating or anything that I've set up for it. It has all the tools that I've given it and it. Does things really well, like way better than ChatGPT.

• 30:07Wes Bos?

  What models are you running that on? Do you have like specific models for specific things? Or are you just using them all on one provider?

• 30:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it depends. I am using right now, I have open router set up, so I'm still experimenting. The main agent for her currently is using GPT 5.5 as the model. Just because you can get OAuth set up with it really easily through the Codex Plan. And then I, you know, for like small little tasks and things like that, man, the Grok stuff is cheap through Open Router. And there's like somewhat reliable or I've been even using smaller anthropic or smaller, some of the older anthropic models on Open Router.

• 30:47Wes Bos?

  Sonnet.

• 30:48Scott Tolinski?

  Cheaper, yeah.

• 30:49Wes Bos?

  Haiku, Sonnet.

• 30:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I haven't gotten too into the the niche or models. I haven't.

• 30:54Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I've been I've been meaning to like dig into a lot of those like cheaper ones as well. Just because it's expensive now, right? And people are looking for alternatives and they seem to be fairly decent. Even like a lot of the the Grok build ones are, if you pay for like the checkmark on Twitter, then you have access to super Grok. I forget the names of all this stuff, but you may have, you might have like, like a like $30 a month worth of Grok that you can just use for specific things. I just hooked it up to my Warp because Warp just stopped like the free inference. And I was like, all right, well, I'll just I'll just hook it up to my Grok because I'm not not necessarily always using that.

• 31:39Scott Tolinski?

  Word.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but getting back to the frameworks, I, yeah, you guys talk too much. I just don't know when I can shut.

• 31:45Scott Tolinski?

  You gotta jump in CJ, this is the lion's den.

• 31:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  I'm not used to it. When we were, I'll say, when we were in person, it was so easy to like maybe talk and I don't know, it's harder. We're all remote, but just talking about like agent frameworks, this is early days. Like you could you could potentially compare this to the early days of JavaScript frameworks. I mean, it's a little bit later just because people are already have framework brain and and AI is already guiding them towards like building framework like things. But. I think anything that makes it easier for people to create agents without having to learn about like workflows or durable executions or retrys and all of this stuff that I could probably do and build manually, but if you have it built into the framework, it's going to make it a lot easier,

• 32:30Speaker 00

  especially for companies that are trying to create agentic flows. Like I haven't gotten into personal agents or like home agents yet. I'm thinking about trying it out with like local AI,

• 32:43Speaker 00

  but I'm still not sold that it's going to make my life any better. But I do see it for like companies that are trying to build agents into their company and their products. Any sort of standardization, I think, is better than none because then people can move from one company to the next and already know how to use a particular agent, that kind of thing.

• 33:03Wes Bos?

  Yeah, and you gotta, you gotta use something that has, like you said, the all of this retry and the durable like workflows built into it. Otherwise, like, people are gonna be like, oh, like, our company has agents, but it sucks, you know? I can't drag and drop an image into the UI, or like, I can't pay something, or I can't, you know, it's like, the people are used to this, like, chat GPT, and then you come into this company, and like, we have our own version of it, and it's not very good. It's so nice when it's built on top of something that has all of those pieces that come for free, and then you simply just need to hook all your integrations up, and you can let her rip.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. And I think that's why I'm seeing a framework from Vercel. So they built NextJS, we can kind of trust that they know about infrastructure and how to structure things. At the same time, I've seen some, some comments in the chat of like, it's potentially vendor lock-in. Like, if you use the Vercel agent framework, now you have to deploy your stuff to Vercel.

• 34:05Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  So that's why I would lean towards a more open agent framework, because maybe I want to deploy it wherever I want.

• 34:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  But the people building these things, I want to see that they have a track record of, of good architecture and good design decisions, because anybody can vibe code themselves up, like, an agent harness or whatever else, but all of these core engineering problems are the things that I want to see talented people work on, I guess.

• 34:34Wes Bos?

  Agreed.

• 34:35Scott Tolinski?

  I love it, guys.

• 34:38Scott Tolinski?

  I, CJ, I'm gonna, I can't wait for more local AI stuff from you. Cause I'm eagerly awaiting the new Mac Studio release just to, to throw on some, some local AI stuff going on for my, my base system, but.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Cause I'm big on privacy and I'm also trying to figure out like, how can I have cool, interesting daily summaries with my calendar and my email, but not give an agent access to absolutely everything? So like, how can I solve that problem of like selectively making my data available, but it also not sending all of that data all at once to these AI providers? Like Google already knows everything about me. I don't necessarily want Anthropic to know everything about me or have all my data in there, in the prompts as well. So I think that's a problem that needs to be solved is how do we do this locally with local models or in a much more privacy conscious way and in a way that doesn't just give an agent access to your entire life so that it can like really mess things up?

• 35:38Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Very much agree. I, I think about that a lot as well. Oh, I could, I could use some of these like new cheaper models for my, like I desperately need something that will tackle my email. I just get so much garbage, you know, it's like 99% garbage that comes in. I desperately need something that will help me process and filter and whatever, but I get so much that it, it's too expensive to run all this stuff through like one of the, those other models. And then I think like, okay.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  I'll pause you really quick because our stream went down. So I think Randy's working on it. All right. We're back everybody. Just say hey in the chat if you can see us. Stream Labs fault. We blame it on Stream Labs. We're using, we're using their multi-stream feature and everything looked good on our end, but all the streams went down everywhere else. So now we're only streaming on YouTube, unfortunately. But.

• 36:35Scott Tolinski?

  We are back. I wonder if the internet's going crazy right now because the steam machine, folks, the steam machine was just. Or announced for pre sign up, join the list, whatever. And like Steam as a site is like, I don't think it's just their traffic, but their, uh, their login is down.

• 36:54Wes Bos?

  There's some major core of, what's the website? I know people hate Down Detector. People who run infrastructure hate Down Detector, but personally, I very much enjoy Down Detector. Because it, it tells me when a website's down, you know, like the status page is never as fast as actual Down Detector. And it's, it's just like actual people clicking. Yeah, I have a problem with that. If, if we're on Down Detector right now, it does, doesn't seem like anything is.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Anything about Stream Labs?

• 37:32Wes Bos?

  No, I don't think enough people use Stream Labs.

• 37:36Scott Tolinski?

  It's not my fault. That's all I know.

• 37:38Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Scott Tolinski?

  It's not our fault, any of our faults. We didn't do anything. We didn't do anything.

• 37:41Wes Bos?

  YouTube had an uptick in the last, yeah, YouTube did have an uptick in the last little bit. So that maybe something has to do with Shopify had a little uptick as well. So perhaps something happened, but we are back. What we were talking about before we left was,

• 38:01Wes Bos?

  like running these agents, right? You want to be able to like pipe all of your stuff through. And I was saying like, yeah, I'm like, my email is personally a really sore spot for me right now, because I get so much of it and, and like spam detection is no longer, no longer works, right? Like it, every, I get all these emails that are like cold intros or just people like writing, like sales pitches, they all, they all slip through and it's so obnoxious because they, they put me through these like ringers where they'll follow up in, in three days, whatever. So I need something that's going to parse every single email. And I had it hooked up. I use Missive as like an email client and I had it hooked up with like an API, where every single email that came through, it would like parse it.

• 38:46Wes Bos?

  But it's just, it's too expensive to put all of your email through it. I get way too much. So we're, we're talking about like, what do you do with that? Can you run it through a local? Or could you put it through a cheaper LLM? Like I don't necessarily want to be piping all of my email through like a Chinese LLM. So I think the local is a move there, isn't it CJ?

• 39:08Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, I'm not listening.

• 39:11Wes Bos?

  Okay, no, I'm trying to include CJ for once. We keep cutting him off. We're not letting him talk. This is why CJ is not paying attention. Scott, do you, what do you agree?

• 39:21Speaker 00

  The stream went down, I'm trying to fix it, yeah.

• 39:23Wes Bos?

  You, you fix it. I'll talk to Scott here.

• 39:25Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, as well, the local stuff does feel like that's the key for a lot of the stuff for me, especially if you have personal assistant stuff. I certainly don't want to be sending every single thing that, you know, you want to be able to use these tools for what they're good at without them sending your social security number and whatever to

• 39:45Scott Tolinski?

  OpenAI, not like they already don't have it, but yeah.

• 39:47Wes Bos?

  This is why, why I'm so interested in getting CJ's take on these and getting him, him do it because like, like, are they gonna be faster? Because like, I was using, there's this like model for flux for generating image to image transformation. I was taking like a video of myself and then transforming it to like me with muscles. And if you host it on, if you use like the API, Web Socket API and stream it, you can get like 20 frames a second. And it's, it's sub-second generation, meaning that you're able to give it an image and say, put muscles on me, and it gives you an image back in like, I don't know, 400, 500 milliseconds, which is super fast.

• 40:31Wes Bos?

  And I was like, hmm, I wonder how fast I could run that on my MacBook Pro, M1 Pro Max, 64 gigs of RAM. So,

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:41Wes Bos?

  Five years old, but four or five years old, but still a pretty beefy machine, right? And that went from using the API, 400 milliseconds, to myself, 18 seconds, you know? Like, like probably 40 times slower to run it on my own hardware. And it made, it made me think like, are we, are we anywhere near? And I, if I had like maybe the newest MacBook Pro, maybe it would be even faster. If I have $4,000 graphics card. Could I ever get that to be that fast?

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's early days and I think especially for image generation and video generation, like for local, you need really beefy setups. But for instance, like running the GMA 27B or the Quinn 3.6 30B, I can get between like 40 and 60 tokens per second. Running those things locally and that's slightly faster than even ChatGPT or Gemini in a lot of cases. So we're closer with text and for smaller models.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Even so, if my rig has 128 gigabytes of unified memory. And so these 30B model, 30B and 27B models are anywhere from 20 to 30 gigabytes. But if I want to run at like a 70B model, that I'm usually only getting like 10 tokens per second, like it still runs, but it's a lot slower. So I don't, I don't see it happening anytime soon, especially because hardware is more expensive like, and to get the same speeds, you really do need so much more hardware. So using smaller models, maybe not have using or be being able to do image generation locally. I think that's where we're at right now. Yeah, I don't see it happening anytime soon of getting like

• 42:29Speaker 00

  cloud level speeds from your local home. Yeah.

• 42:34Wes Bos?

  You know what is one interesting, this is kind of related. Let me, let me show you. I'm sharing my screen. Randy, you throw that up.

• 42:44Wes Bos?

  And, and beware, I think that this is a lot of crypto bro stuff, which is not my intention here. So please be careful, but this Acurist has this like app that you can install on your phone and it lets people run compute on your phone. And if you're thinking like, if you're doing like weird stuff and you need like, like clean IPs or you need like, just like a whole bunch of like compute very quickly. I know this is like the, the plot of Silicon Valley, but it's kind of interesting to think like, yeah, I need to run a whole bunch of compute right now. I need to, I need to maybe run it in some sort of private sandbox.

• 43:23Wes Bos?

  Is it better to run it on 100 people's random Android phones that are in their pockets? And I don't know what the answer to that is, but I thought it was kind of an interesting take to see that this is actually possible.

• 43:39Scott Tolinski?

  I think there's a number of these things that are being announced like this or released for either sharing compute or hosting your own models or hosting your own compute and then making money off of it. So you can, if you have beefy GPUs, you can essentially rent out that compute and essentially get some of that money back that you spent. I'm actually very upset because I was going to be getting a beefy GPU and then it was eight grand, so beefy. And then it went up to like nine grand and I was like, okay, I'll just wait for it to go back down to eight. Obviously, it's not going to do that.

• 44:21Scott Tolinski?

  And it's now like, what, $12,000 for an RTX 6000 Blackwell?

• 44:28Wes Bos?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:30Scott Tolinski?

  That same GPU was $8,000 and I was thinking that was a little, you know, that was a little crazy. I could have been selling that compute, Wes.

• 44:39Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Eventually, it's gotta get cheaper. And then like, will people be putting like compute boxes on their house? And then when power is cheap overnight, like selling that compute?

• 44:52Speaker 00

  I'd love to see it. I mean, that's kind of what people do with electricity already.

• 44:56Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Like you get solar panels or whatever else you can feed back into the grid. I think if we can figure out a nice and secure way to do it, I mean, I'm sure Accurass or whatever this company is, has encryption or like, you also, if you're running your workloads on regular people's phones in this case, or whatever computers they've made available.

• 45:21Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  As somebody that gets added onto this network, I also don't want to be liable if somebody is doing some weird stuff.

• 45:27Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  So if they're distributing the compute and then it just so happens that my computer is used to do nefarious things, that's not great.

• 45:35Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You think about that, like where are all of these agents getting, like how are they all bypassing these like captures and stuff? And one of the ways they're doing is they're using residential proxies and they're running it. They're running it on like your TV when you're not using it. You know, you install these sketchy apps on your TV to get free compute, or you have like a, you go to the convenience store and the guy sells you a hundred dollar IPTV box. Those things are for sure also using your residential IP to like proxy nefarious traffic through. Not necessarily even nefarious, but like scraping, right?

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's a really good Dark Dead Diaries episode that talks about exactly that. Basically, I think even so Jack Reciter, his dad, I think even bought the box and like put it in their house. That gives you a bunch of free TV, but a whole bunch of people did research into it. And yes, it gives you free TV, but it also becomes a residential proxy. And it tries to hack all the devices on your, on your home network. So like, it's a thing. It's definitely a thing.

• 46:38Wes Bos?

  Too good to be true, huh?

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:41Wes Bos?

  Put it on a subnet, or like a, like not even a subnet, but like a private network.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:46Wes Bos?

  Would you do that for free TV? Maybe. I think your ISP would probably start getting complaints.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think if, if you're technically savvy enough to set that up, great. And, and I've just been learning how to do that. Like I've got an access point and I'm setting up VLANs. And I'm trying to isolate my networks, like my home automation network from my, in my cameras. I'm not trying to isolate that from my main network. But it's not easy. You have to.

• 47:12Wes Bos?

  No, regular people.

• 47:15Wes Bos?

  This, everything we talk about on this podcast always comes back to regular people ain't gonna do that.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:21Wes Bos?

  Yes. Dick, all right. CJ, what do you got for us?

• 47:26Speaker 00

  I got some things. I'll just mention to everybody that's watching, this is Syntax Weekly. Welcome in. Sorry, the stream went down, but I see a lot of people have trickled back in, so welcome, welcome. We've got, I've got one more thing for you and then we're just gonna bounce back and forth. We have a bunch of various news and stuffs like that. But what I have for you today is Deno Desktop. Let me share my screen real quick. So if you're familiar with Electron. Or Tari, or any of these ways to create cross-platform desktop apps using web technologies. Dino has released, currently in Canary, Deno Desktop. And so if you're not familiar, Dino is a JavaScript runtime, essentially like a replacement for Node.js or replacement for Bun, but it's from the original creator of Node.js.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  And they've been working on this a very long time. And they try to position themselves as like the more secure Node.js. There's a lot more ways that you essentially have to opt into network access or access to your ENVs or access to your file system, that kind of thing. And they're also Node.js compatible. So they've been working really hard to make it so that you can run apps within Dino, but you can use all of the same Node.js APIs that you're used to. So Dino Desktop is one more thing that's just built in. So from the command line, you can do dino desktop and it can turn any project into a desktop application. If you want to try it out right now, you do have to install their Canary build

• 48:52Speaker 00

  because right now Dino is version 2.8 and desktop won't be available until version 2.9. But the idea is you can have a very simple entry point. So I have an example app here, just a very simple main.js. And it's a dino serve that serves up some HTML. That's literally all the code that I need here. And then from the command line, I can do dino desktop. And it will launch a desktop app. Let me drag it over here. And so now this is the experience you're probably used to if you've used anything like Electron. And so I can go back, I can edit the codes. Let's make this font color white.

• 49:34Scott Tolinski?

  CJ loved me saying the word codes.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  I do. I used to not say codes like, because it sounds weird. But in the research community, they say codes a lot. And so that's why I started saying it. Yeah. So you get hot reloading, you can edit the text here. This example is super contrived because I literally have an HTML string that's being served up in the desktop app. But the cool things about this are Out of the box, it can use just the system web view. And so these are known as backends. And this is one of the reasons something like Tari got really popular is they ship with the system web view by default. I think in the latest version, maybe Scott, you know, are they switching to Chrome embedded? You can change it now? Okay. But Dino is shipping with that by default.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Essentially, if you're on a Mac, it'll use the Safari web view. If you're on Windows, it'll use the Edge web view. If you're on Linux, I think you have to install like Chrome embedded framework or something like that. But you can do that, but you also can use the Chromium embedded framework, which makes it so that on every system it uses Chrome and it'll automatically bundle that in. And so this is nice because then you know every desktop that's running your app is running Chrome. So you can be sure that for the most part, everything that works in Chrome is going to work on everywhere you're deploying your app to. But it's nice that they're shipping this on day one. You basically get to choose your backend.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  And the other aspect of this is you can use frameworks as well. So I just showed a super simple example where you just have an HTML string and you're serving that up with a Dino serve. It also has framework detection. So if you're in a folder that has a NextJS app or an Astro app, the docs here say that they support others. Right now in testing with Canary, I could only get it working with NextJS and Astro. But the idea is if you already have a SvelteKit app, let's say you want to turn that into a desktop app, you can literally just cd into that directory, do Deno desktop, and it will detect what your framework is and automatically set it up so that it has like the embedded local view and it starts up the server whenever the desktop app runs.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  So this is something else that I feel like where Dino has gone with a lot of these things is it's trying to be all in one and require way less config, right? If you wanted to do the same thing with, let's say Electron, there's a million and one starter kits, like there is like the Electron build framework, but that doesn't come by default and you have to find the docs on. To figure out how to build for different platforms, or if you want to get Veet going with Dino, they're shipping out of the box framework support, choose your backend. And so this kind of seems like another great unifier of being able to build desktop apps. So yeah, curious your guys' thoughts on this? And maybe we can dive into it a bit more. I can show you some of the stuff that I've seen.

• 52:27Wes Bos?

  My first thought was like, like, why do we need another one of these? But I'm just going through the documentation and it says bindings. So like bindings are you're able to call backend code from the front end. And that's really cool because you can like have like a database save method on the server, but you can just call it from the client, you know, like every, every framework has that. But it says bindings are not IPC. That's what you use in Electron. The Dino runtime and the rendering backend run as threads and processes inside of the same address space or coordinated process groups web view.

• 53:09Wes Bos?

  Calls go through the same process channels and the backend dispatches them from the run lift. In practical terms, bindings are fast enough. You do not need to worry about call frequency for typical app or work workload. So there's no, like, there's no socket where things are being called back and forth. I guess they run in the exact same process. I'm not exactly sure how that, how that works. It'd be kind of interesting to talk to Ryan about this, but that is interesting.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's one of the other selling points. So they do have a comparison table that talks about all these other frameworks. So you would compare this to Electron or Tari or Dioxus. But all of the other ones have like a multi-process model or like an IPC model, which is inter-process communication, where you have one process, that's the renderer. That's the thing that people see. And then one process, that's the backend. That's the actual thing running that you can maybe like write custom Rust code or custom Node JS code. And then what we're saying here with Dino is it's all in process. So you can use their bindings API that basically makes it so that you can define functions that can be called from your frontend. But when it's running all of this, it's all happening in the same process.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Those, those things, it's going to be a faster communication because it doesn't have to hop between processes, potentially easier sharing of like large amounts of data. And be also being able to use native things like a like a Node.js worker thread, or sorry, like a Dino thread and have all the benefits of that, but still be able to communicate from your front end codes. So aside from all the niceties and built ins, I think they've they've settled on a pretty cool architecture as well.

• 54:56Wes Bos?

  I wonder, does this also like, it just doesn't share memory, does it? Like, like, imagine you had a massive JSON object and then you need to send that to the front end to like, display. One thing is that, oh, now, now you have duplicated that object in memory, right? It lives on your server and on the on the front end. Is is that something that can be done with this? I know people were looking into that with web workers where like there the memory is shared. Like if you have a, again, if you have an object in a worker and you have an object in in the browser DOM, then you're simply you're duplicating it twice. And that that can be, that's usually not a big deal if it's just an object or

• 55:41Wes Bos?

  whatever. But if you have very big payloads, that can certainly be an issue. Now the browser has this idea of like a shared memory array or shared buffer. I forget what the exact name of it is. So I'm wondering if that plays in to this as well.

• 55:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm curious about how it connects to macOS APIs directly. Like the Tori space is always kind of crazy because you're needing somebody to create some kind of translation layer between Rust and the Apple ecosystem. Like, things like in-app payments in Tori and stuff for macOS are just a giant pain in the ass. So I like, wonder what that story is like. Because those are the things that nobody thinks about when they think about like, oh, the electron system is so, the electron ecosystem is so mature. They have those things all figured out. Like, if you want to connect directly to Apple's in-app payments, etc., then it just works. So.

• 56:37Scott Tolinski?

  Like, what is that story? The deployments and stuff? I, since this is my first time looking at it, I mean, they do have stuff about deployment and, and things inside of here. Bundling and all that stuff. So I would love to dive into this. I had no idea this was a thing, but man, I love, um, I love options in here because I certainly don't love Electron. It's just the best of the experience, given the ecosystems of it all.

• 57:04Wes Bos?

  And that's the crazy thing about AI right now is that people can spin up these things fairly quickly because they have ideas of how this should be implemented. And you have, we have all of these learnings from Electron. So like, I don't, I think like probably the days of Electron are likely numbered. There's a reason why so many people are on Electron. Everybody says it.

• 57:28Wes Bos?

  I hate Electron, but the ecosystem is the best. It's the most battle tested, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

• 57:35Wes Bos?

  Those are maybe not benefits anymore now that you can use an agent for a lot of this stuff.

• 57:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And people saying that they want to use the in-app browser or the Safari, the CEF, whatever, the people want to use the browser that comes onto the machine. I would urge you to think very carefully about that because if you don't control the environment that your front-end code is running in, then it makes debugging and testing very difficult. Because even the version of Safari that ships with my computer is different than the version of Safari that's on Wes's computer right now.

• 58:10Wes Bos?

  Sounds like web development, Scott.

• 58:11Scott Tolinski?

  It's, but it doesn't have to be because with Chrome, Wes, you can bundle it all together in a nice packaged version of the version of Chromium you want to use.

• 58:21Wes Bos?

  And or like a custom build as well. Like you want to turn HTML and Canvas on because you're doing some cool thing? Like Remotion does that. Remotion has a custom build of Chromium with all the flags and every, all the knobs turned exactly how they need it for their product.

• 58:38Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I will say Leo is in the chat. So Leo worked on this feature over at Dino. He's eating dinner, so he can't follow along closely. But he did say that there is no shared memory. So I'd have to dig deeper to see how really all of this is working. Cause I guess technically Chrome is running as a separate process. But I guess maybe what they mean is Like the code to actually communicate with that Chrome is still inside of Dino. I don't know how that would work, but apparently the memory isn't shared directly. So there is going to be some, some hot potatoing of data in between.

• 59:13Scott Tolinski?

  Which maybe you also want, like, shared memory is probably one of the biggest vectors for attack as well.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there is a question from AssetSpark that says, how is the built size or bundled size? If you look at their comparison table, you can see that if you're using the system web view, then it's about 40 megabytes. And that is because they bundle Dino with it. So like the actual Dino binary is going to ship with this, so that doesn't have to be installed on people's machines.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  And then, like, because if you compare that with Tari, they basically ship completely built apps. So like, they're not shipping the Dino runtime or anything like that. They're, there's, your built app is being shipped with like Rust modules themselves. So it's definitely going to be a little smaller. Yeah, compiled to native codes.

• 59:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  So this is like a good middle ground, right? It's not the, by default, that 40 megabytes is not going to be the same 100 megabyte payload, a little bit bigger than Tari. But if you do use Chrome embedded framework, you're looking more so like Electron sizes, like 150 megabytes or so.

• 1:00:16Scott Tolinski?

  I like that. This gives me a lot of hope. Yes.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  And I would say, check out their docs, install the Canary to give it a try. But they have all the APIs that you would expect. So they have ways of opening new browser windows. Like I said, they support frameworks, so out of the box, you can get like hot reloading with Veet and things like that.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  This was always hard for me to find in the world of Electron, but they have ways of creating app menus and status bars, status bar icons. And also you have control over what's in the dock on a Mac or in the tray on Windows. So they've thought about all this stuff. I'm excited to dig deeper into it.

• 1:00:54Scott Tolinski?

  You know what I don't see, CJ? The same thing that we had an issue with in Tari when we were building the syntax production assistant in Tari was deep link support. And we had to do all this crazy hacky stuff to get GitHub off working inside of the app and YouTube off working inside the app.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  That might actually be platform specific, so for, yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, if Leo is listening, that's a feature request is we want deep links. Otherwise, you're probably going to have to add platform specific code for like Windows or Mac to support deep linking. Yeah, because especially like OAuth flows like

• 1:01:31Scott Tolinski?

  That was crazy.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  You want somebody to log in, like open the browser, but then that should relaunch your app so that they can be logged in. We had to jump through a lot of hoops to get that going, that's for sure.

• 1:01:40Wes Bos?

  Should we get into some of the other news? Because I have another one that's related to this. Colin Hacks, he's the guy who created ZOD. He's the guy who created standard schema, TRPC. Also, a guy I didn't realize this, he worked on Bun. He's released NUB, which if you are keen, you will realize that that is Bun backwards.

• 1:02:06Scott Tolinski?

  We love a NUB.

• 1:02:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah, so he's releasing, I know you love a NUB, Scott. He's released this thing that is essentially adding all of the Bun like Dino nicety features to Node.js. So what it does is it augments Node.js by adding in everything instead of having a separate runtime. So NUB uses these to add Bun's best feature on top of stock Node.js, like non-erasable TypeScript syntax, meaning that like, yes, Node has TypeScript right now, but it only has like type stripping. It doesn't have like enums, which jury's out whether

• 1:02:49Wes Bos?

  you should want that or not, but it has it. TypeScript friendly module resolution, JSX. You know, like, that's another thing about the Node.js TypeScript support is that TypeScript is nowhere to be seen. So you just, you simply can't use it. Decorators dot env autoloading, that is something that Node has, but you have to throw a flag in there, right? YAML, TAML, using, etc., etc. And he claims it is, what, 24 times faster? So it also includes like a, just one of the items it includes is a PNPM replacement. Seems like everybody's building, what do you call, package manager these days. So NUB run, oh, I guess.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  I wonder if it uses, like, I wonder if you, when you say run, does it use P N P M instead? Like, is it almost like a Frankenstein of like?

• 1:03:42Wes Bos?

  But why is nub install? No, nub install is three times faster than P N P M install. So it doesn't, right? And I think I read somewhere.

• 1:03:51Scott Tolinski?

  Its own installer with a P N P M shaped CLI. A P N P M shaped CLI, yes. N P M, P N P M, Bun, Roundtrip, Yarn, Read-only.

• 1:04:02Wes Bos?

  He slop forked it. He slop forked P N P M and said, make it faster. And I, I mean that with all, like, this is, this is really interesting to me, right? Obviously, he releases something, I pay attention, he's a super smart guy and it's changed so much. You know, like, a lot of this AI stuff is all built on top of, of ZOD. So this is pretty interesting.

• 1:04:23Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, this showed up on my TL and it's one of those things, it's like, I ain't got time for this right now, but I do think it looks interesting.

• 1:04:29Wes Bos?

  What are you doing?

• 1:04:30Scott Tolinski?

  My timeline. Yes, it's thrown on my TL, my timeline, yes, my FYP, yes.

• 1:04:36Speaker 00

  No, it's exciting. I think anything that unifies the ecosystem and the idea here being that still use node for all the stuff it's good at, but then give all the extra little features that node hasn't taken the time to add. I think it's, I think it's a good direction.

• 1:04:51Scott Tolinski?

  So we nubbing? That's what we doing?

• 1:04:52Wes Bos?

  It's a version manager. This, this kind of also encroaches in the, like, the V plus area as well, right? Like, it's a, it's a version manager.

• 1:05:02Wes Bos?

  Everybody's competing for that CLI script. So it's, it's not a total replacement for V plus, but it does overlap quite a bit of the, the features.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Scott Tolinski?

  No, uh, no, uh, linting or that kind of stuff that you get.

• 1:05:20Wes Bos?

  No, no, none of that. And like no front end either, right? This is just a node thing. So I'd probably stick with. Ah, it's hard. Can I V plus a nub? Like, can you, can you nub to V plus to node? You know, can I go three levels deep? Is that possible?

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  It's a brand new, brand new sentence. Can I V plus a nub?

• 1:05:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Scott Tolinski?

  All right, what else we got?

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, shout out to ZBazella in the YouTube chat who says, "I've been listening to the podcast for years but never watched any videos before. None of you look anything like the images I built in my head of your voices alone."

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  Hello, welcome in.

• 1:06:03Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Cool. All right, I've got something to share. I don't know, have you guys heard of Forsight JS?

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  It essentially predicts user intent from mouse and keyboard cues. So if you're just on their landing page, so it's ForsightJS.com, as you move your mouse around, you can see that it projects this vector of like where your mouse is headed to.

• 1:06:29Scott Tolinski?

  I think this is cool as hell.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  So, but that information can be used to say, oh, the user is like 10 pixels away from this button and the mouse is headed in the direction of this button. So I'm going to go ahead and preload the content for that link that they're about to click on. So yeah, yeah, their tagline is "Prefetch Smarter." So Forsight JS predicts user intent to prefetch content before it's needed. It's fully configurable and traceable using different strategies for desktop and mobile users. So like on mobile, you would care more about like touch. And so you can tap into things like on-touch start. And wow, okay, yeah, so there's this playground down here. You can see it happening like as I start to scroll, like move my mouse to the left or to the right,

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  like these individual elements are being fetched according to like where my mouse is moving before it gets there. So this is one way to make your site feel faster. And the reason this is news is they just released version 4 a couple of weeks ago and they added React and Vue components. So on their homepage, you can see you can install the React or the Vue version.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  And that will let you do this stuff directly inside of React. And then if you are using any other framework like SvelteKit, you can still use their, um, their engine. They basically just give you events that you can tap into. Like you subscribe to specific events and then you can set it up for whatever framework. But, uh, fascinating stuff.

• 1:07:58Scott Tolinski?

  Slopporcas Svelte version. This looks dope. Yeah.

• 1:08:01Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Here, let me, let me show you a place where this will be killer. Cause like the prefetching stuff, very cool. Uh, but the simple mouse trajectory stuff needs to be in the browser. I, I think so. So like, look at this. I'm on Maker World and this happens all the time.

• 1:08:19Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, we don't see your browser. Oh, no, wait, sorry. We do. I'm done. No, I'm done. I'm looking at the wrong screen.

• 1:08:24Wes Bos?

  So Maker World has this like little dropdown where you can like click on your user profile. And if I want to go to my likes, I gotta like click here. And then for audio listeners, I'm just like hovering to a nested dropdown.

• 1:08:37Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, that sucks. Yeah.

• 1:08:39Wes Bos?

  And, and I want to go to my likes and like, what you have to do is you have to like, like make sure your mouse doesn't go outside the button. And then there's a little bit of gap in between, which will trigger off.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 1:08:51Wes Bos?

  So because there's, I'm sorry, there's margin in between it. So that, that triggered, that triggers the mouse off, right? So you gotta like move very quickly and like, like famously, Amazon did this like probably 10 years ago. As they figured out what the like hover triangle will be. Um, but this is, this is even one step further of like, if I just want to go very quickly to a nested menu, you shouldn't, ah, it's so frustrating that I have to like, like walk the plank to get to the button that I want. Whereas this Forsight JS like pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. Like it knows exactly where I want to go and just. Fetching, yes, but like not closing the menu if something,

• 1:09:33Wes Bos?

  if you have the foresight to think that somebody is going to hover over top of it.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  That makes perfect sense. So like instead of having like a hit area, it's more so like a hit area plus mouse direction plus a certain amount of time. And easy enough, now the modal just stays open instead of auto closing. So yeah, love it.

• 1:09:52Wes Bos?

  This will be very expensive. Who does this? The McMaster car? I did a video on this. McMaster car aggressively pre-loads and pre-renders a lot of their pages, which is why the McMaster car feels so fast. And they only do it on hover. And the other options are you can do them when the links get into the, like within the viewport, you can, you can figure out what are commonly used ones. There's a whole specification for pre-loading links based on if the browser thinks you're going to visit them. But all of these things aggressively prefetch. And if you're using bandwidth or compute,

• 1:10:33Wes Bos?

  anytime those are, you may be just throwing that in the garbage. So it's a delicate balance of like, am I okay with my hosting bill going up? As if it means like I'm selling more widgets or people are having a better experience.

• 1:10:49Scott Tolinski?

  Hey Wes, you see, you see this? This get predicted events from Alka TV posted, get predictive events was in baseline 2024. A method on the pointer event interface returns a sequence of pointer event instances that are estimated future pointer positions.

• 1:11:09Speaker 00

  Have it open on my screen. Yeah, it's baseline 2024. I have never heard of this.

• 1:11:13Scott Tolinski?

  Never heard of this. Alka, thank you. This is crazy.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Thanks, Alka. Shut up, Alka.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, get predictive events.

• 1:11:21Scott Tolinski?

  And they even have a little demo on MDN if you scroll to the bottom that will show you kind of similar where it shows you. It doesn't, it's not as cool as the little arrow example. They need, MDN, you do the little arrow example. I thought that was pretty, pretty nice way to say, you gotta move faster than this. Whoa, interesting. Mine looks different. Mine has like red circles on it.

• 1:11:39Wes Bos?

  Yeah, mine's red. No, it's just.

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:11:43Wes Bos?

  Interesting. It doesn't work as well as I thought it would. That's the frustrating part about a lot of these specs is like, yeah, that's what we want, but that doesn't actually look very good.

• 1:11:55Scott Tolinski?

  I don't think you know, because you haven't tried it. You just.

• 1:11:57Wes Bos?

  I should try it, but like, I'm looking at where the circles are and it, it just puts a bunch of random circles up or below my cursor. I'll try it. This is, I had no idea that this was an API and I, and I love obscure APIs and this is in every single one?

• 1:12:15Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Alka TV, this is crazy that you knew this. Uh, shut up.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  I wonder if, if Foresight is using some of that under the hood?

• 1:12:23Scott Tolinski?

  I did a search for this API in their repo and I didn't see anything, but it could have just been me searching poorly. I could have had a typo. Who knows?

• 1:12:32Wes Bos?

  Interesting. It's a, and it's pointer as well, meaning that it's will likely work for touch as well or gamepad, you know, it's everything.

• 1:12:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Okay. Sick. What else we got?

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  We got first, Wes, you got something?

• 1:12:48Wes Bos?

  Uh, what have we got here? Flexport CEO calls work from home fraud or white collar fraud.

• 1:12:58Scott Tolinski?

  That's stupid.

• 1:12:59Wes Bos?

  I, I want, so if you didn't, didn't see this, the Flexport CEO, which is like a shipping logistics company, um, he says like, like, I can't work from home. I have a huge house too. And I, I'm not able to like do work because I have my three and five year old just come in and bug me. I can't get any work done. It's, and so he, he obviously doesn't want any of his employees doing work from home. Um, obviously that's a dumb take, but in the same breath, I also think a lot of people working from home are, are just dicking around.

• 1:13:34Scott Tolinski?

  So Wes says people who work from home are lazy and he thinks they don't do anything.

• 1:13:39Wes Bos?

  But I, I don't think that a lot of people, I can, I can work from home very well. I've done it my entire career. I've never not worked from home, but I know a lot of people are just like not as productive as, as they hand. And yes, it is very frustrating to like have to commute in and it's very soul crushing, but I'm curious what you guys think. Like, can you be productive doing work from home?

• 1:14:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I think the right people can, absolutely.

• 1:14:06Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 1:14:07Scott Tolinski?

  Working from home for a very long time. And I do miss things about working in an office. But I think people like this guy should just shut up. I mean, like, I think that's for maybe, you know, it's like, people who are actually in the management of directly interacting with employees and connecting with them and working remotely. Like, I feel like, I feel like that is the type of opinion I value more in this instance. But, yes, there are certainly people who dick around when they work from home and that are probably not cut out for it.

• 1:14:42Wes Bos?

  Yeah, using mouse jigglers.

• 1:14:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. Like work.js and it keeps your screen going.

• 1:14:50Wes Bos?

  Is that what you use, CJ?

• 1:14:51Speaker 00

  I do, yeah. Because that's what I was gonna say. Like, there's nuance to this.

• 1:14:54Scott Tolinski?

  We have been waiting on your AI video to come out, CJ, so...

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  Exactly, that's what I'm saying. I just, I'm basically not doing any work. No, I'm working hard. It's coming out soon. It really is. But I think it comes down to the person and also the environment, right? Like, I have a separate workspace in my house. Like, my wife doesn't bother me when it's work hours. And I am working from home. I have worked at places that had a work-from-home policy, but people working there didn't treat it in the right way. Like, one time a dev was like, "I have to run to do some laundry. I'll be back later." And just because you're at home, like, so like, maybe you could throw some stuff in the dryer

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  because it's like, you're on the way, it's near your desk or something. But I think taking time out of your workday to do chores isn't like the definition of work from home. I think sometimes you can make that happen because it's like easier or maybe you are gonna take like a 10-minute break. But there are people that don't understand that work from home means sitting down and working at home.

• 1:16:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  It means to be like super flexible or whatever else. So, I see the argument, but there is nuance. There are people like us. Like, our entire team is remote and we get stuff done, so.

• 1:16:14Wes Bos?

  Somebody asked my wife the other day, she's like, "It must be so nice to have lunch with your husband every day." And she's like, "I never see him, my husband." And like even when I first started, like we were first moved in together, she thought like, "Yeah, we'll have like a lunch hour." You have a lunch hour and you sit down and you hang out. I was like, I like one hand a sandwich on the stairs back down to my, to my, my computer. I don't take a lunch break, you know, I'm just like, when I'm on, especially now with kids, you know, like the eight hours that I get to work is, is sacred to me and I don't have, I don't work weekends, I don't work evenings.

• 1:16:54Wes Bos?

  I need, when I have that time, I just wanna go, go, go. I don't, I'm not taking a lunch hour and hanging out with people or doing laundry or whatever.

• 1:17:03Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm a little Gollum in my office on my computer, like, "Get my work done." And then again, like my lights have to shut off at five o'clock, otherwise I would, would not even go in the house. So I, you know, I, I actually do, I have them shut off because I was like, I would like look down and be like, "Oh shoot, it's time for me to leave work."

• 1:17:21Wes Bos?

  Oh, I need to do that. My wife will often text me and be like, "It's five o'clock, 5:05, can you please come up?" Yeah. Kids are killing each other.

• 1:17:29Scott Tolinski?

  I, I get the, the, you know, the neck around the, the, or the thing around the neck from my, my lights in my office from my home assistant. "All right, time to get out of here."

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, I actually did talk to some people at JS Nation, like in person, that talked about, like, they really prefer going into the office because they can't focus at home. And I think that for certain people, that's, that's, that's fine. That, that seems to be the way it is. Like they can't find quiet or because they spend all their time at home, it doesn't feel like they can get work done there. So yeah. There are absolutely people that like need to go into the office to be productive, but again, there's nuance. I don't think it should be a blanket rule.

• 1:18:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I mean, I personally prefer to be in an office, even though I have worked from home for the past 10 years.

• 1:18:21Scott Tolinski?

  But there's benefits either, I mean, you know, my kids get sick or whatever, I can go get them. So I mean, there's a lot. And certainly being in the, the realm of audio recording 24/7, being in an office is just not practical to me unless I did have an office that was just a studio. So from that point, I might as well just work from my studio. Yeah.

• 1:18:38Wes Bos?

  That's all the links I have. What is it? Scott, CJ, do you guys have other stuff?

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  I have one fun thing to end on, if that's cool.

• 1:18:46Wes Bos?

  Let's get it.

• 1:18:47Scott Tolinski?

  Get some fun stuff.

• 1:18:48Speaker 00

  This was shared over on r slash web dev by user CookieDelivery. They built a 3D bookshop experience. You can walk around, pick up books, read the cover, a sample or the full book. And I've thought about building something like this before, but for like, for movies, like imagine tapping into like the IMDB API or Open Movie Database, and then making it look like a blockbuster.

• 1:19:13Scott Tolinski?

  Imagine that's your Plex is just a blockbuster.

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

  Exactly. So this is the app. You can, you can, you can walk around and for any book that you stumble on, you can, whoa, gotta control it here. But any book you stumble on, you can click on it. It's got the summary on the back of the book. And then you can click in to read the preview. So this is like a similar sample that you might get on Amazon. How sometimes it shows you like the first few pages or whatever. But then for some books that are like in the public domain, you can read their full contents like this. Pride and Prejudice.

• 1:19:48Scott Tolinski?

  See, I don't even like books and I like going into a bookstore to pick up the book. So, yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 00

  Exactly. Like it's a fun little experience. So yeah, this is fun. I think, like I said, I want to build this for movies. I think like, like what you were saying. Scott is like, this could have like your Plex library or your Jellyfin library. But then also like you could tap into some categorization APIs that give you like, like I would probably tap into Letterboxd. Cause Letterboxd, people create custom lists of like, uh, top movies with aliens or like, if they have like very specific lists. So that'd be cool to see.

• 1:20:27Scott Tolinski?

  Imagine this CJ. Imagine you tap into the Prowler or Radar or whatever. And then you see something directly from there and you say, ooh, I would like to download this Linux ISO. And then have that in my personal library.

• 1:20:41Wes Bos?

  This reminds me of, I think it was Shopify has an internal like poster board or like a utility pole where you can like staple like a poster to it. And I just looked for it. I can't find it. I think it was just a video I saw on Twitter at one point, but I love those things where it's like real time and like anybody can go in and staple up a poster.

• 1:21:03Scott Tolinski?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:04Wes Bos?

  I just love those like, the cursor camp was another one where you could just like walk around and see all the other people. I need to build something like that. I think those are so fun.

• 1:21:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:21:13Speaker 00

  The other thing I'll say here, so I actually went to the Van Gogh museum when I was in Amsterdam and they have one of Vincent's paintings that I saw there.

• 1:21:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, they have. Yes, I did see that painting as well. That museum was fantastic if anybody was ever in.

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think having an experience like this, I guess people have probably built a virtual museum that you can go through, but I would almost prefer it because like I don't like crowds and like I was in, the museum was great. To be able to see, to be able to see the paintings up close, awesome. But there are literally like 30 people all standing around with their phones out, taking a picture of a picture.

• 1:21:48Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:49Wes Bos?

  Right, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:21:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, so give me this digital experience.

• 1:21:51Scott Tolinski?

  Sit there and admire it.

• 1:21:52Wes Bos?

  Don't want a picture of a picture, but allow me to have a VR experience.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  And then I can like zoom in 50x times and like see the actual paint strokes and stuff.

• 1:22:01Scott Tolinski?

  Get your nose up in there. You could add some smell vision and smell the oils, ancient oils.

• 1:22:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes. I actually really like this idea as a person who does like VR and AR experiences. So for me, this does kind of hit something for me that I'm like, ooh, this is, this is kind of sick. So.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is fun. Great, that's all I got.

• 1:22:20Wes Bos?

  Cool.

• 1:22:22Scott Tolinski?

  Well, now I'm really inspired to go build my, my Blockbuster store because I do think that would be fun.

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 1:22:28Scott Tolinski?

  Sick. All right. Well, anybody else have anything, folks?

• 1:22:32Wes Bos?

  That's it. You want to wrap it up, Scott?

• 1:22:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Thank you so much for joining us for Syntax Live. We are here every single week, every single Monday. Next time, we will not have any technical difficulties. I can promise you that. And then check us out on, we have a podcast every single week. It's coming out on Wednesday and then we do videos on Friday. And CJ has a banger of a video coming up that I'm going to mention here just so he gets it out. But that's all I got. Check it out. Check us out, sentry.io, all that good stuff. We'll see you in the next one.

• 1:23:05Wes Bos?

  Peace.

• 1:23:06Speaker 00

  Peace.