#532: Zach Goldstein on Building The Best Pants

Zach Goldstein is the founder and CEO of Public Rec, which makes the most comfortable leisure apparel. He has an unique solo founder story and has now grown Public Rec into 8 figures in revenue annually. In this conversation, we discuss leaving investment banking, original idea for Public Rec, the initial kickstarter campaign, being a solo founder, self-funding the business, achieving profitability, and being a product-first founder. ======================= Remote makes it easy for companies of all sizes to employ global full-time employees and contractors. We take care of international payroll, benefits, taxes and local compliance, so you can focus on growing your business. Learn more about Remote and their new Remote for Startups program at http://www.remote.com. ======================= Choice is a new self-directed IRA product that I'm really excited about. If you are listening to this, you are likely part of the 7.1 million bitcoin owners who have retirement accounts with dollars in them, but not bitcoin. I was in that situation too. Now you can actually buy real Bitcoin in your retirement account. I'm talking about owning your private keys and using tax-advantaged dollars to do it too. Absolute game changer. https://www.retirewithchoice.com/pomp =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Zach Goldstein is the founder and CEO of Public Rec, which makes the most comfortable leisure apparel. He has a unique solo founder's story and has now grown Public Rec into eight figures in revenue annually. In this conversation, we discuss leaving investment banking, the original idea for Public Rec, the initial Kickstarter campaign, being a solo founder, self-funding the business, achieving profitability, and being a product-first founder. I really enjoyed this conversation with Zach, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into the episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Remote.com. In 2021, every business is a global business, but how do you pay your global team and comply

• 0:51Anthony Pompliano?

  with international labor laws? Remote handles payroll, benefits, taxes, and compliance to help companies of all sizes pay and manage full-time and contracted workers all over the world. No matter where your team lives and works, Remote's global employment solutions keep your team, your finances, and your intellectual property secure. Remote never charges percentages or fees, just best-in-class global employment solutions for a low, flat rate. The world's top global companies love Remote. GitLab, the world's largest all-remote organization, trusts Remote to manage their global team, and so should you. Remote is funded by Index Ventures, Sequoia Capital, and a host of other top-tier investors. You can learn more about Remote and their new Remote for Startups program at remote.com.

• 1:33Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:14Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:57Anthony Pompliano?

  without paying a dime in capital gains taxes. And if you want to hold your own keys all the way to the moon, you can do that, too. Either way, Choice is on a mission to give you full control over your retirement savings. So head on over to retirewithchoice.com/pomp. Again, that's retirewithchoice.com/pomp and sign up for an account today. And one more thing, you know how I feel about this, but if you have a pro that manages your money, don't take any BS. Choice has tools for them, too. Take back control today and visit retirewithchoice.com/pomp. Again, retirewithchoice.com/pomp. All right, let's get into this episode with Zach. I hope you guys really enjoy this one.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 4:02Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Zach here with me. Thanks so much for doing this, sir.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, no problem. Happy to be here.

• 4:08Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. So you are the only person I know in the world that was a solo founder and also solo employee of a business that you ran for multiple years. You eventually grew it to $7 million in revenue by yourself. What happened and how the hell did you do that?

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I was the only internal employee, but I had a lot of external help. Working with, you know, a lot of third-party agencies, you know, a production partner who was overseeing our manufacturing. And so, you know, was fortunate, I met a lot of helpful people along the way. And I was super sensitive to, you know, hiring too quickly, and I wanted to stay away from raising funding. And so that just kind of forced me to be as lean as possible. And so I wasn't ready to really bring on talent until I knew I could sustain them and the business could sustain them. And so, yeah, and then we were fortunate, we launched a product that kind of resonated right out the gate.

• 5:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And so during that three and a half years, if you're the only internal employee, you basically are doing everything. What did your day look like? Were you just awake for like 20 hours a day? Or kind of what were you doing?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, it was pretty intense. Um, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a lot, you know, a lot of customer support stuff that ended up being getting customer support got to a place where it was like, okay, I can't, obviously we need help there. Um, product development, you know, marketing, um, yeah, touching a lot of different areas. And, um, you know, it was kind of like doing part-time of what, you know, we have our employees do full-time now and just probably not being at a size where it required someone to be full-time. Um, but yeah, kind of all day thinking about the business and trying to advance it however best.

• 6:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so what was your background before you started Public Rec?

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Uh, I was working in finance beforehand. Uh, I previously directly worked for a private equity firm. And before that, I worked in investment banking for a few years out of school.

• 6:16Anthony Pompliano?

  And so was it just you had uncomfortable pants and you wanted more comfortable pants? Like what was the impetus? For the idea.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  Actually, I mean, a little bit. So, you know, sweatpants never fitted me well, me being shorter. And so like sweat, like in college, I gravitated towards one pair of sweatpants that actually ended up fitting. They happened to be my mom's and I was like, oh, why do these fit? Why do I like these more? Because they fit better. They're shorter in length. So I was like, why aren't, you know, leisure pants, sweatpants offered in a waist and inseam sizing? If they were, they could fit better. It felt like a problem that other brands were ignoring because of the inventory risk and the investment and like trying to do it differently. And so it felt like a way to differentiate the product was offer waist and length sizing for leisure pants.

• 7:01Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so when you go to launch this thing, you have a Kickstarter campaign, from my understanding, and you do six figures in revenue through that Kickstarter campaign. Why Kickstarter? And kind of what did you do to increase the odds of it being successful?

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, at the time Kickstarter felt like a good place to really test the market immediately and, you know, get feedback, understand if the message was resonating, if people were interested in the product at all. And then like also garner some PR. You know, at the time when you were having success on Kickstarter, and it still is, but like it's a very public display of your business and everyone can see the number that you've raised. And it's like, oh, this company, you know, they have credibility because they've done this much on Kickstarter or it's, you know, it's resonating with other customers. Maybe I should check them out. And so, yeah, I spent six months in advance of really dialing in the campaign, making the video,

• 8:02Speaker 03

  having a final prototype and feeling good about where I was with the manufacturer and the content and the story. And then also, you know, reaching out to writers in advance to kind of tell them this was coming and hope that maybe they may be interested enough to write about us.

• 8:17Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so when you think through kind of where you've evolved to today, how do you describe Public Rec and what you guys are doing?

• 8:25Speaker 03

  We're a leisure apparel brand, mainly direct to consumer online, making super comfortable clothes you can still feel good about wearing outside of the house.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, we, you know, I can go into it more directly, but yeah, we spend a ton of time making product and sourcing fabrics and making sure that whatever, you know, we're coming out with is different and better than than what's out there today.

• 8:50Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you think through the business, being D to C, obviously, I think has kind of swept through a bunch of these different industries, but it seems like every D to C company eventually tries to get into physical retail, retail locations. Why stay D to C for the most part?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  I think it was kind of just out of what was working and like where we felt the scale like, you know, we were, we were fortunate that the message was resonating kind of as we scaled our marketing budget digitally. And so I was like, you know, let's just keep doing this, you know, we see we spend a dollar, we get, you know, two and a half dollars, three dollars back in revenue. This is great. This makes sense for the business. It's profitable. You know, how much more can we push this? Okay, we need to get, we'll get more inventory to support. How much more we can push it? And so it was kind of just like, just keep doing kind of what's working for the time being. We, we launched one store in New York. It was open for about six months. Unfortunately, we closed it due to COVID and we kind of walked away from it.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  It's, it's a, you know, a strategy we're reassessing and probably will pursue at some point. But, you know, the capital required to do it and the amount of revenue it can drive versus just kind of building the brand online, it just felt like it made sense to stay focused on the web business.

• 10:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And what I think stands out about the product that you've built is you are product first, right? This idea of comfort, it's all over the marketing materials. It's literally when you describe the company, when you wear the clothes, they just feel better. Where does that kind of product obsession come from? And then kind of, do you do anything inside of the company to continue to just hammer that home to employees, partners, vendors, et cetera, about that kind of focus on quality of product?

• 10:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, to me it was like, you know, I only want to do this. I only want to start a company if, you know, I feel like we can make something that's better than what's out there today. Cause like, you know, we're starting with a no name brand. We're only gonna win and we're only gonna attract customers if our product is great. And then like, you know, everything else has to make sense and work and, and, but to me it was like, start with trying to make a product that we think is better than what's out there currently and that customers are gonna enjoy. Uh, and so, you know, the, the first product took a couple of years to make, uh, sourcing different fabrics, finding different factories. Finally got to a place where I felt good about the fabric, the fit. Um,

• 11:21Speaker 03

  and it's kind of been, you know, that way since we've launched products. We try to think of things as core. We don't think of them as seasonal or, or discount them. Um, and we try to, I mean, we'll spend anywhere from eighteen to thirty-six months, uh, from idea to the products and our fulfillment center and ready to sell to our customers because, uh, I just feel like we don't have the opportunity to get it wrong. Like, customers are trusting us. It's a leap of faith to try a new brand. If the product isn't excellent, they're not coming back. They're not talking about us to friends and family. And, and nothing else works if, uh, people don't love the product. Yeah. And so how do you measure whether people actually love it? Right? Obviously there's sales. Is there anything else that you guys look at, uh, to really measure how much people love the product?

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Uh, we look at repeat rate. Um, we look at, you know, customer feedback. We're getting reviews from customers. Um,

• 12:18Speaker 03

  we're looking at, you know, how people talk about the brand on, you know, different places. Um, you know, whether it be ads or responding to emails, the type of inbound we get. Um, and then it's like, You know, friends, family, all that, like, anyone who's experienced the brand, it's always interesting to get their perspective. Usually, you know, you gotta understand that a lot of it can be biased, because, you know, if they're friends or family, sometimes they don't want to be critical. Then there's like the friends or family who like, want to be super critical, which is, which is helpful. Uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, but, you know, try to listen to the customer as much as possible.

• 12:55Anthony Pompliano?

  So, when we talked today, uh, you've got, you know, uh, double-digit employees, uh, you're profitable, you've raised, uh, no kind of venture capital, uh, and, uh, you, you've really built a great business. Uh, we started this conversation off with the idea that, uh, you were a solo employee, up to $7 million in revenue. When did you know it was time to bring on other people? Like, was there a moment where you were like, "Oh, man, I am overwhelmed, uh, I really, really need help"? Like, what drove you to finally get another employee?

• 13:28Speaker 03

  It was, yeah, it was something I...

• 13:31Speaker 03

  Well, I remember, like, up until that time, it was like a big internal debate of like, "Should we hire? No, I can keep going, I can keep doing this." But then it was like, at some point, it was like, you know, "This isn't sustainable, you know, the goal is to build a big brand. Uh, I can, we can afford to hire someone and support that salary."

• 13:50Speaker 03

  So it was just, I think, everything just kind of tipped to like, "Okay, if we're gonna, if I'm gonna keep doing this for a long time and build a big brand, you know, I need to start hiring people, especially if the business can support it." Um, so, yeah. A few, a few different variables, kind of, were all telling me, you know, "Now is the time to, to hire."

• 14:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I absolutely love the fact that you did that. Uh, talk to me a little bit about the idea of not hi- or, uh, not raising any venture capital, right? Uh, you did Kickstarter, so there's kind of some initial, uh, funding, but it really was kind of this preorder model. Um, was it intentional not to raise venture capital? Uh, or did it just kind of happen? Like, what was that, uh, that story?

• 14:35Speaker 03

  I think in the beginning, I had saved a little bit from my previous jobs and I had done the Kickstarter. So, you know, I felt like I had a little runway to test out the idea and see, you know, what could become of it. At some point, I raised a small round from friends and family a couple of years in to support, you know, moving manufacturing overseas with higher minimums and to make more products than just the pants. But I, you know, we were fortunate. We had pretty quick growth over the first few years and it was, everything was moving so quickly that it was like, I didn't think that raising equity would really change the path we were on. And so it's like, you know, if we're

• 15:19Speaker 03

  growing quickly, I already feel like it's as risky as, you know, I'm comfortable with it as it is, given the pace we're moving at. So it's like, I don't want to put more fuel on the fire and, you know, accelerate the risk and maybe make some decisions that I'm not as comfortable with. And I'm happy with like the growth we're seeing. So in the beginning, it was just being okay with, you know, the growth rate at which we were on and not feeling like equity would really change that path. Yeah.

• 15:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you think about kind of that path, would you go back and do it differently? Would you have raised capital? Do you think that was the right way to do it? Would you be in a different position if you had raised capital?

• 16:04Speaker 03

  I don't think I would do it differently. I, you know, sometimes I think about what, where we would be if we had raised capital and, you know, would we be three to five years ahead of where we are today? But no, I mean, I chose the path and, you know, I have no regrets about the path and I think it's been right for us as a company. The one thing is like, You know, there are some brands that end up raising a ton of capital and they maybe find out that, you know, sometimes the financials don't make sense and they're scaling on financials or metrics, KPIs that don't make sense. I do think that we kind of have, you know,

• 16:48Speaker 03

  we're fortunate we have this product and we have KPIs that kind of makes sense now to scale and, you know, financing might kind of change where we are today, but yeah, no, I mean, it was a good path for us and I would pursue it again the same way.

• 17:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Talk to me about your supply chain. Obviously with COVID and kind of everything that's happened over the last year, I'm assuming that there was a ton of issues there and that you had to navigate, but just maybe explain a little bit about how the supply chain set up and then what you've had to navigate over the last year.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, we so we make everything. Most of our stuff is made in Thailand, Indonesia, and Peru. When COVID hit, we had a decent amount of inventory of kind of all of our products. So we didn't have a lot of POs that were coming. So it wasn't like we needed to shift, you know, when slowed down POs. We also, you know, we found out kind of later throughout COVID, we didn't really, we hadn't really tested what the capacity levels were in our factories because we weren't really placing a bunch of orders. And so something that we experienced was after the holidays, we had a good Q4, we had an encouraging holiday. And, you know, we wanted to order more. We found out kind of November, that stuff that

• 18:08Speaker 03

  was supposed to hit end of December wasn't going to hit and it was going to be six to eight weeks delayed. And so Q1 this year, January and February, we were out of product in a lot of our core SKUs because of factory delays. I think something that we experienced was a lot of our factories slowed down last summer. They laid people off unfortunately, and they didn't have the same capacities that they used to have. And then a lot of brands, I think, started seeing success. Q4 last year, we're starting to ramp up. The factories no longer had the same capacity, so they couldn't keep up. And so, yeah, it's been difficult for us the last, you know, four or five months, having product on hand, feeling good about, you know, continuing to keep product on hand. I think we're now

• 18:52Speaker 03

  at a point that will be, you know, hopefully good through the rest of the year. But yeah, it's been a challenge for sure.

• 18:59Anthony Pompliano?

  And part of having a really strong supply chain, not having raised capital, you know, really kind of working your ass off in terms of those first couple of years. One of the benefits of all that is you're profitable and you've been profitable for quite a while. Talk through maybe the pros and cons of being profitable early. Did that change some of the decision making that you may have made otherwise? And then how have you seen that as an advantage as you've built the business for the last few years?

• 19:30Speaker 03

  I think, I think so. The advantage is like,

• 19:35Speaker 03

  you know, we get to make our own decisions on where we want to go and what we want to do for the most part. We're not beholden to an investor. We're not beholden to trying to, you know, get more money from, you know, an outside person, institution, whatever it may be.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  Which has been super helpful in terms of like, you know, we're operating the business on a daily basis. And so everyone internally, you know, the team now today, we're making decisions on what we think makes sense for the business. And we're able to execute it without feeling like, you know, when you check with someone or when you do something differently.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  I think it's also, it's given us a little more room. You know, I, I think it's kept us disciplined in like how we think about marketing and where we want to go and,

• 20:19Speaker 03

  you know, the, the con or the drawback is maybe that like, you know, we've been less aggressive in our marketing. And so, you know, maybe we haven't grown as quickly as we otherwise would have if we had, you know, a bunch more capital to try to test things. But you know, obviously with the testing, you find out what works, you find out what doesn't. We've been able to test a good amount.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  But yeah, maybe, maybe, you know, the outside capital help makes us accelerate our testing a bit more and, you know, allows us to do things that we would find out that do work for us that we've been maybe hesitant to do.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk to me about the changes in consumer behavior that you've seen through the last 12 months, COVID, the economic crisis, et cetera. Are there specific things that stick out in your mind that maybe other people aren't aware of?

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Although, although people may, or to be aware of it, or you know, have heard it from others, you know, mid-March, those, mid-March up until really May, it was very slow for us, you know, and the website fell off in a way that it was like,

• 21:31Speaker 03

  you know, when you're experiencing it, we don't know what's going on with COVID, we don't know how long it's going to last, and it's at a point where it's like, if we keep seeing revenue like this on a daily basis, I don't know how long we can survive. Like, is this a six-month, a 12-month thing, where just, you know, people aren't spending or buying our clothes? And so that was super scary. We started to see an uptick throughout the summer. We saw people buying a lot of shorts. And then, you know, the fall was pretty good. We, again, we saw slowdown for the election, but I think that's, you know, outside of COVID, we probably would have seen that. And then, we had, we had a good holiday season, which I remember even going into Black Friday and Cyber Monday, not really knowing how it was going to go.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  And then, you know, seeing what the performance was like, and seeing what the, you know, consumer,

• 22:19Speaker 03

  what the consumer was buying, and that, you know, so that was exciting. And then, and then, of course, we find out shortly thereafter that, you know, the, the product's not going to hit that we thought for the restocks, and now we're going to be out of stock. And so,

• 22:32Speaker 03

  yeah, I mean, I think it's probably similar to what other businesses have experienced in terms of like, you know, a dramatic drop-off in demand, and then a slow rebound. And, you know, it's, it's feeling good now again, so.

• 22:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Well, it, it's incredible to, to kind of go through those peaks and valleys all in a short, compressed period of time, right? It takes the, the whole idea of being an entrepreneur and puts it on steroids when you've got the, the macro environment going so crazy. One of the things that I find fascinating about your business is this focus on comfort. But I got to ask, how do you measure comfort? Is it just you put the clothes on, and you're like, yep, this is comfortable? Nope, this is not? Do you have like a panel? Is it friends and family? Like, who is the determination factor around what is actually comfortable and what's not?

• 23:16Speaker 03

  It's a good question.

• 23:21Speaker 03

  I mean, it's friends and family. You know, I started a clothing company because I had a strong opinion in clothing and felt like I had a good barometer for that stuff. But of course, like, I'm only one person. I, you know, I don't have a background in clothing. So, uh, yeah, as prototypes come in, it's, you know, putting them on different people, seeing what their reaction is, you know, if it's friends or family and they're trying it, like, forcing them as much as possible to be critical and like, you know, not hold back.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  And then like, you know, as we've come out with products and we get feedback on what people are liking and not liking, then we can refine and dial it in and do more of or do less of.

• 24:00Anthony Pompliano?

  If you could go back and unpack kind of that first three and a half years when you were working by yourself, what are the things that kept you going? Was it something that you were telling yourself? Was it the fear of failure? Was it just every day you looked for one positive sign to kind of keep you moving forward? Like, what was the thing that kept you going for three and a half years by yourself? And really, from a perspective of, there's a lot of people listening to this who, they're early, right? Whether they're actually by themselves or it feels like they're by themselves, they're very, very early in that journey and they're constantly looking for the right signs, that they're on the right path and they can keep kind of pushing forward. What was it for you that that kept you there?

• 24:43Speaker 03

  I think, I mean, every day was exciting to me. Every day was something new. I still, I remember feeling like, you know, getting to the weekends and still like doing stuff that I could do myself over the weekends, but being so eager for it to be Monday because like then I know people were online and they'd be responding to emails or be able to take phone calls. And so that, I mean, like, it was, it was, I mean, it still is so exciting, but that was, you know, something that it was just like, I, it just didn't feel like a job at the time. It was like, you know, I am so dedicated to this. I'm loving it. And it's like, you know, still super stressful and, you know, making mistakes and not doing everything well and.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  But you know, the excitement and then, and then it's like, you know, if I'm not doing anything, nothing's getting done. So it's like, the only way that I can keep doing this and sustain the excitement and, you know, enjoy this is like, okay, we need to progress the business so we can, you know, get to a place where it's financially sustainable.

• 25:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And was there a moment when you said to yourself, it's working? Like, was it the Kickstarter and you're like, oh, you know, people want this? Uh, was there like a dollar figure in the bank or revenue or like, what was that moment when you were like, damn, like I actually make it, like make this work?

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Um, so I think probably when I made the first tire, when then it's like, when I was like, okay, this is working. Um, it's still like, even today, it's like, you know, I'm checking the numbers constantly. And if something doesn't look good for the last hour, it's like, what happened? Is the site down? You know, the lights could turn off in any minute and I still fear that fear. Um, yeah, I, yeah, it's still, I mean, like the goal is hopefully, you know, something bigger and, you know, hopefully just getting started. But yeah.

• 26:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Do, do you watch the numbers on like an hour by hour basis?

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do. It's not healthy.

• 26:39Anthony Pompliano?

  No, it, I actually think it's one of the best signs of you really understand the business, right? Like I could probably ask you, you know, what are the, uh, most popular hours of shopping versus not? And you intuitively just know, cause if you watch the numbers all day long, right?

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's, uh, when I started it, so we're on Shopify. Uh, and initially there's a Shopify app. So you, you could get a notification every time a purchase came through to your phone. And it was like a dopamine hit, like every, cause I would know what the vibration or the sound was. And now, I mean, I've turned that off, the, the notification at least. Uh, but yeah, I still check. Uh, you know, very often and part of it, part of it's like, now we're at a point where we have a team and like if something's going wrong, you know, someone will, someone will catch it. Our customer support team will catch it or, you know, the person who oversees our site will catch it. Uh, but in the beginning was like, I may be the only one who catches it. If it's like, you know, the last hour, we haven't had any traffic on the site, something,

• 27:37Speaker 03

  maybe the site's down or something. So that was part of it, I think.

• 27:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it, it's so funny. The, uh, that Shopify notification with the cash register noise. Uh, I, I've got a, uh, two friends, uh, who are the founders of Adams, the shoe company.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 27:52Anthony Pompliano?

  And I was over at their house, uh, six months ago, or maybe even a year ago at this point. And, uh, it kept going off and I just looked at it at one point. They're like, yeah, we're not shutting that off. It was just this thing of like, it was annoying, but it was like, hey, man, we just know that like, you know, these are working. And, uh, it's pretty cool to kind of see Shopify specifically, like their whole, uh, mentality of like arming the rebels, right? I've had, uh, Harley, the, uh, the president of Shopify on the podcast before, and I think that just hearing, uh, kind of their focus on celebrating entrepreneurship and really empowering entrepreneurs. Seems like you're like the quintessential story for a platform like Shopify, right? Where basically, uh, you didn't need a big team, uh, you simply needed the platform.

• 28:34Anthony Pompliano?

  And once you had the tools, then you kind of get to work and can build a business and, uh, and turn into something pretty special, create jobs for people. Uh, and, and really kind of, uh, embrace all that entrepreneurship, uh, that everyone always talks about.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Shopify has been a great platform for us. I remember, uh, in the beginning, it was like, you know, Shopify or Squarespace and at the time it was like, there wasn't, it was hard for me to tell the difference between them. Some people are on Squarespace and I'm, yeah, I feel fortunate that we went with Shopify. It's been a great platform for us.

• 29:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Uh, what's the most popular product that anyone buys?

• 29:11Speaker 03

  Most, our best seller is the all the everyday pant, um, which was our first product we started with.

• 29:18Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you decide to launch new products, uh, what do you have to see or like, how do you get the? Confidence to launch something new, knowing that that very first product is still the most popular one.

• 29:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think a lot about like what complements, what do we already have today? And like, you know, if we've got a certain product, do we have a top that you can wear with it? Or a bottom that you can wear with it? Then like on a higher level, I think about, you know, where are we as a brand today? And when we launched the brand, it was, you know, really focused on the leisure space, kind of trying to stay away from the active athletic space thing. And that space is more saturated. And then like on the other end of like, you know, business casual work. And so we've kind of gravitated more towards business casual and work.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  And so, you know, it's in buckets of, you know, where does it fit within our product offering? And then, you know, also what are we hearing from customers? And what do we think makes sense to complement what we already have out there?

• 30:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. What's your biggest regret over the last couple of years? If you go back and change one thing, is there anything that sticks out?

• 30:27Speaker 03

  I think, I mean, I know we've talked about, you know, the hiring a good amount and, you know, me being the only employee. I do wish that I had hired a bit sooner, both for customer support and then,

• 30:40Speaker 03

  you know, our head of operations, who was our first hire. It just became apparent that like, you know, getting good people on board and, you know, helping the business scale in that way really opens up a lot in terms of, you know, what I can focus on, what more we can be doing as a company.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, I think that's maybe my biggest regret is kind of wishing I had hired sooner.

• 31:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And when you think about that regret, that it makes me ask the opposite question, which is what is your favorite memory from the last couple of years?

• 31:18Speaker 03

  The memory that sticks out the most that is kind of funny now is we moved fulfillment centers. This was a few years ago. I'm still the only employee. And at the time, like I was, I had a good relationship with the existing fulfillment center. I was nervous to tell them that I wanted to leave. Ended up telling them. And I didn't even consider it, but I showed up with a U-Haul truck and I, you know, load the truck. They kind of helped me load it. And then I drive it from New York to Chicago with my brother to a new fulfillment center. And it was like, I didn't consider that I could have hired someone to, you know, help me load it, to drive. I had never, I hadn't driven a truck like that before and show up to new fulfillment center, get them. And it was like, all over the weekend so

• 32:03Speaker 03

  that we wouldn't have that much missed time to fulfill orders. Yeah, it's just, it's funny to think about.

• 32:11Anthony Pompliano?

  But those, to me, like, that story specifically is almost like the fun of it, right? Like, if you just hired people to do all that other stuff, like, it's almost like you wouldn't have that story or that memory. And so, sure, you'd have a successful business, but to some degree, like, that seems to be the, the fun part of actually building the company.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  Definitely, definitely.

• 32:28Anthony Pompliano?

  What did your brother, what did your brother think when you were like, hey, man, you're gonna come, come with me and go on this drive?

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Luckily, he's an entrepreneur himself, and he was, you know, happy to do it. And yeah, I mean, it was, it was fun. Once we had, like, the stuff loaded, we were on the road, it was, it was fun driving together.

• 32:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I, one of my brothers is, is thinking about moving, and we were just talking about this, this idea of like, hey, let's put it all on a U-Haul, and then we'll drive, and it'd be, you know, pretty long, 18-hour drive. And he literally told his girlfriend, he said, oh, we'll just like, play music and like, hang out and have a blast. And so, I don't think that she thought it was nearly gonna be as fun as we thought it was.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  That's funny.

• 33:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Before, before I let you go, I ask everyone the same three questions. You'll get to ask me one to finish up. What, uh? What's the most important book you've ever read?

• 33:20Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's the most important, but the one I've enjoyed a lot recently is Shoe Dog. You know, it's relevant, but it's a book that like I've read multiple times and then I'll read, you know, parts of it just to like enjoy, like reread some of the stuff that I love the most.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just for me, yeah, I really enjoy reading it.

• 33:42Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of it is, that story resonates with you because it is, you know, kind of an apparel like story or a company and some of the aspects of like the supply chain and the difficulties and complexities you resonate with, with compared to just like the entrepreneurship story in general?

• 34:01Speaker 03

  A lot. There's a lot of similarity. And it's like, you know, we're not Nike, like the dream is one day, 20 years, whatever, like 40 years. But yeah, there's a lot, that's maybe one of the reasons why I like it so much. It just feels like there's a lot of similarities between some of the problems he went through and what it feels like I'm going through.

• 34:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Wasn't even called Nike at the time, right?

• 34:24Speaker 03

  Right. That's right.

• 34:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Second question is about your sleep schedule. I'm going to break this up. I want, what was your sleep schedule? This comes from our friends over at Eight Sleep. So they've got this thermoregulation bed. I turn it super cold. My wife turns it really hot and I still make a baby now, but I used to only sleep, you know, five, six hours. What was your sleep schedule when you didn't have any employees? And then what has it transitioned into today?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  It's pretty similar. I've kind of always tried to get seven to eight hours of sleep. It's been something that like has just been important to me. I know that like, you know, if I go too many days without getting that, I won't be able to function. And so,

• 35:09Speaker 03

  yeah, I'm usually, yeah, trying to get seven or eight hours.

• 35:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. You were way ahead of the curve on that one.

• 35:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Last question you get to ask me one is aliens believer or non-believer?

• 35:27Speaker 03

  I'm a believer.

• 35:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Just like, you know, seeing some of the, seeing some of the dead out there, the research, it just feels like, and, and, you know, thinking about how big everything is, um, it feels more likely than not that there are another species out there.

• 35:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it feels like, uh, probabilistically, yes.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, what shape they are in, right? Are they intelligent or not? Uh, it is a whole different ballgame, but, uh, it, it just feels like, I, I even go as far as to say like, I bet you Mars has some sort of life. It just may not be what we're all thinking about, you know, the little green man walking around, right?

• 36:09Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 36:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, could, could be, uh, you know, literally cells or something. So who, who knows? I'm not a scientist, but, uh, but I agree with you. I think that it's gotta be life somewhere else.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What, uh, what one question you have for me to, uh, to wrap us up?

• 36:23Speaker 03

  I've got, so, uh, my question is, what keeps you up at night? What do you think about, or, yeah, curious what, you know, yeah.

• 36:33Anthony Pompliano?

  This is gonna sound insane, but this is like a new worry. Uh, I try to balance uh, happiness with ambition. And, uh, my nature is to go 110% hard charging. Uh, I wouldn't sleep if I thought that that was a smart thing to do anymore, right? Like, just like, just go for it all the time, bigger, faster, better. Um, but what I've noticed is like, there's a direct trade-off between like that type of mentality and, and, um, kind of pursuit with just peace of mind and like happiness. And so like where the balance is, uh, I'm not sure. Because if you just optimize completely for happiness in some way, you almost feel lazy. Like you, you feel like you're like not doing anything, uh, which is almost a

• 37:17Anthony Pompliano?

  test of happiness. Like, can you do nothing and be happy? Right? Um, but, but I think that, uh, that balance is, uh, almost one of these things where like you'll never actually get the right answer. Uh, but the constant pursuit of the balance between ambition and happiness seems to be, uh, uh, at least right now, you know, kind of top of mind. And, uh, i- i- it's funny to kind of hear you thinking through and talking about, you know, when you started to, uh, hire people versus not hire people, whatever. Some of it is, can you, you know, be ambitious, uh, and also maybe you don't have to do 100% of the work. Right? Like, is, is, does that kind of bring more happiness? Or if you've got to manage people, maybe that actually makes you unhappy. Right? Uh, it kind of depends on, on the situation, uh, the individuals and kind of what you're trying to accomplish.

• 38:01Anthony Pompliano?

  But I think that, that balance is probably the thing that, uh, that's been the most time I'm thinking about right now.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Super interesting. Yeah, that resonates with me for sure.

• 38:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 38:12Speaker 03

  I, I, I think, you know, similarly, it's like, can I be happy in the moment? Like, you know, I feel like the brand is, is, is doing well and we've accomplished a lot. And, you know, it's gotten to a place where, you know, a year, two or three years ago, it would have been a dream to get to this place and, and, you know, see the numbers and have the employees and, and it's hard to appreciate it and not want more of like, okay, we got to here, let's get to the next stage, let's get to the next stage. And it's like, I don't know, I think a lot about like, you know, how, you know, when do I feel like I've, I've made it or, you know, we're a success or, and what does that feel like? And, yeah.

• 38:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Uh, where can we send people to, uh, pick up some clothes? Well, hold on, first of all, before you tell us, I have to say, I've got a bunch of the pants, uh, shirt jacket. I said, the shit is actually really comfortable. Like, I know you're saying it and like you're, you literally are, are the founder of the company. So you're supposed to say it regardless, but like as somebody who, uh, I don't buy designer clothes. Like I'm like a $5 jeans from Walmart type guy, uh, literally just wear, you know, black t-shirts, et cetera. Uh, it's super comfortable. And so anyone who's listening to this, who's like, I don't know, like completely unfiltered advice, uh, or feedback. Like it's really, really comfortable.

• 39:35Anthony Pompliano?

  So where can people go, uh, purchase anything, uh, especially the pants? If, if that's what they want.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Nice. That's awesome to hear. Um, very cool. Uh, our website is, uh, publicrec.com. Rec is R E C, like recreation. So yeah, publicrec, R E C dot com.

• 39:53Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Before I let you go.

• 39:54Anthony Pompliano?

  You gotta tell me, where'd the name come from?

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Uh, wearing clothes in public during recreation, which was like the thought of it. And it was just like, at the time, it was a lot of back and forth with one of my friends who was like, I was like, you like this? And he would throw it. And so, um, I like the word public. Uh, and I think initially I tried to get public service and I couldn't get that cleared through IP. And so, uh, landed on public rec.

• 40:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it, man. You're building an absolute beast of a company. So keep going. I'm a big fan. Uh, I wear the clothes. And anyone who wants, go to publicrec.com and we'll have to get in the future.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  Awesome. Awesome. It's good talking to you.