Elite, Unrivaled Performance in the Mountains | How does Sitka do it?

Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow John Barklow: https://www.instagram.com/jbarklow/ Follow Sitka: https://www.instagram.com/sitkagear/ Timestamps: 00:00:00 Intro & Cam’s Journey with Camo 00:05:46 Base Layers 00:08:02 Pants 00:11:12 Active Insulation 00:13:34 Windstop Layer 00:16:36 Puffy Jackets: Synthetic & Down Insulation 00:21:52 Rain Gear 00:24:29 Developing the Best Gear 00:26:13 The 8-Piece System 00:29:17 Underwear Design 00:30:22 Outro

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Cameron Hanes?

  This is the Keep Hammering Collective with John Barklow. How you doing?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Good, man. Thanks for having me.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Clothing is your first line of defense against the elements ever since the first caveman put on a light cloth, right? So what I appreciate is like, I can come in, build great gear that for something I'm passionate about and then other people passionate about. And then when you get those aha moments, like we were talking about, like, man, I don't have to be cold and wet. It's like, no, you don't. You can actually go out and like actually kind of focus and have fun. I just kind of wanted to like, talk about how I approach things. Cause I've, I've thought about it long enough. I try to break it down into a simplest form. And then like some of the technology we use and then some fairly unique things I think we do that I think you'd be interested in. Cause you know, you're, you're

• 1:05Speaker 01

  performance oriented and like some of the things that I think we can just work with you on going forward. I think you'd really kind of think is cool. And, and we don't really talk about some of this stuff very much. Like I'm going to show you what we call split garments and how we test. Like how we test is such a big part of what we do, but it's all behind the scenes. And you know, unless we talk about it, nobody's ever going to know. But I think we should get some credit for it.

• 1:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you know, I agree. It's a, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. And I'll just, I'll just go over my journey real quick. My first, when I first started, I, I killed a spike bull in 89, but I used to buy camo at Action Surplus, right? And I remember I bought these wool pants that were probably two times as big as I needed. And I had a shoelace to do it. But I'm like, I have wool, dude. Do you know how serious wool is? This is like, this is what rich people wear.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01Cameron Hanes?

  And before that, it was like, I didn't, there was no Walmart, I don't think. But that's kind of where you got camo. It was just cotton, just, you know, tree bark on it probably. And then, then there were some Predator was like, oh Predator from Out West. This is sick, but still all cotton. And then all of a sudden, this performance stuff started coming in. But it was years after I had been bow hunting. I mean, many years. And You know, then it was like, oh, well, there's this better material. We're like, what do you mean? Like, what material? What's that gonna do? And then it was always like, Under Armour came on, saw him at a shot show in like 2003 or four,

• 2:45Cameron Hanes?

  and they had that first like tight that you'd wear under football pads. But they're like, Randy White was up there in a big picture and he had a Super Bowl ring and stuff.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I remember that, yeah.

• 2:55Cameron Hanes?

  And just looked jacked. And they're like, it's brown. So it's like, now you can wear this for hunting. Cause look, it's brown. And that was the first that I remember of kind of the wicking, that type of thought of like, this will, if you get wet, it'll wick. If you're sweating, it'll wick. And you're just like, that's where this technology first started to come. And I don't know when Sitka got on the scene, but I'll just say that I've tried, you know, obviously it's with Under Armour for a long time. Then Origin, you know, with Jaco is the co-founder of their camo line and, you know, things happen in business.

• 3:33Cameron Hanes?

  And we got to where I talked to everybody about, okay, the Origin thing wasn't working out. What am I gonna do? Talk to everybody, right? Talk to Steve with First Light, talk to you guys, talk to Born Primitive. Cause I just like, I hate switching around. I want to make good decisions and I just want to focus on hunting.

• 3:55Cameron Hanes?

  So we formed this partnership with Sitka and I didn't, I didn't know anybody at Sitka other than you. And I've known you, seen you in hunting camp, watched your, you know, you do your social media thing. For us, like, social media at our age is like,

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, probably not the most natural thing, but you love to talk about gear and educate people. So you just do what you do, right? And set the camera up and it's good. And I, so I know that. I'm like, no, well, fucking, John knows his shit. So whatever he's saying, cool. I wasn't working with Sitka, but I'd watch your stuff. Now I am. And so I finally got like the chance to use the, the equipment and gear and clothing that you design. And this year has been, I was telling you earlier, I don't, I didn't know you didn't have to be miserable out hunting. I thought, yeah, we're just cold and wet and miserable and that's just the way it goes. Then I was like, you sit up for late season blacktail and I'm like,

• 4:57Cameron Hanes?

  Wow, I, I didn't know I could actually enjoy this stuff.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:02Cameron Hanes?

  And now, you know, Spring Bear and things like that, but I've just really been impressed with, and maybe I, maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but it is so good, dude. It is so good. It's amazing. I used it even in my race, that long Coca Dona run, I was wearing Sick it because in that, it's all performance and all, it's gotta be light, it's gotta be warm, it's raining, this and that. It has to be the best. And that was like a verification of what I was learning on my first hunts wearing it. And I'm like blown away.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  When I saw the pieces you were wearing on that, on that race, I'm like, oh, that's exactly what I would wear too, you know, so like you either intuitively figured it out, but it certainly worked for you. So first of all, I say Sick is an investment. It's an investment in your hunting future. Like that's how you should look at your bow, your rifle, like any of it, right? And your clothing aside. Eight, eight pieces of clothing is all anybody really needs. It doesn't matter if you're mule deer elk hunting, whitetail hunting, waterfall hunting, it doesn't matter. Like eight pieces is about what you need. It always starts with a base layer. So base layer is like the foundation of this house. Like build a weak base layer, everything else you build on top of that, it's not going to work very well, right?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  So really all you're trying to do with modern clothing is manage moisture. And that's either from the inside out via sweat or outside in like from rain or snow. So that helps you regulate your body heat and then that puffy jacket assists with that, right? So all you're trying to do is manage moisture. Really not very complicated. That's all the base layer does.

• 6:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Something super lightweight. You sweat in a cold environment, it's going to pull it off your skin. If your skin's warm and dry, you're going to be warm and dry.

• 6:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  In a hot environment, so say down in San Carlos or something. It's gonna move that moisture and pull heat away through evaporative cooling. So either way it works.

• 7:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  This is the biggest mistake people make is like they buy some great stuff from say Sitka and then they wear their, you know, cotton briefs and t-shirt.

• 7:10Cameron Hanes?

  Fruit of the womb.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  And then they're like, why, why am I cold? I had this actually happened years ago in a whitetail camp. And so, you know, base layer, you have synthetic wool. This is treated with insect shield. So I don't know if you guys had this for your bear hunt, but like,

• 7:25Cameron Hanes?

  That would've been nice.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  You know, keep, keeping bugs away. So not just a chemical treatment, but also the fabric doesn't allow the mosquito to like, put his nose through and bite you.

• 7:36Cameron Hanes?

  Really? Even as thin as this is?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  It's crazy, right? And so there's a mechanical and a chemical property to that. So.

• 7:43Cameron Hanes?

  It's so light.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  But it gives you options. So you have synthetic, you have wool, you have stuff with insect shield, you know. I just like to say it's shooter's choice. Like it doesn't really matter. Just pick something. Just pick, pick some kind of technical base layer. And then everything you put on top of that, which is really an investment, um, is gonna work better. And then you got pants, right? And so soft shell pants are really your, they're kind of your uniform. They're, you know, it's something you, put on and probably don't take off when you're, you know, living out of a backpack. And you have so many options there. Removable knee pads, non-removable knee pads, um, hip vents, you know, whatever. This pant here, the intercept pant is what, uh, you said you were bear hunting in?

• 8:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Crazy, quiet, high-performance, durable, right? And so it's like, if you're a bow hunter, like the intercept pant to me is like, that's my go-to.

• 8:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  And then we got, you know, this new pant coming out with hip fence. This pant here, the, uh, this is a new, new pant as well, but like, really crazy lightweight, but when we were testing that originally, you know, I sent it on, I put it on two guys going on Cape Buffalo hunts. And they killed, you know, after 10 days or whatever and they they sent me back the pants. And I was like, hey, did you guys even wear them? And they're like, yeah, we sent you the kill photos. And I'm like, dude, they still look brand new.

• 9:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  And so, you know, again, just if you're out there in a lightweight pair of pants, because it's super hot and they fall off and get shredded from the knee down, like, who cares?

• 9:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Right? Like, you just, you wasted your money, right? So, but, but soft shell pants are a really important part.

• 9:21Cameron Hanes?

  Being on your knees, like for an elk, for actually for, for any animal, they're way less inclined to be spooked by some, by a human on their knees than standing, the standing profile of a silhouette of a human. They're so used to seeing that and being alarmed. When you're on your knees, especially if you're by a tree, and it's just, you can get away with so much more. So if knee pads help you, because people are like, might be they got sore knees or whatever, or it's hard to get down and up for some people. So they're like, I'm just gonna stand. That could cost you that opportunity.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Cameron Hanes?

  If you would have been on your knees and maybe the, the knee pads that come with some of these garments here, maybe that would allow you to make that decision and that would allow you to kill that bull of a lifetime. Again, it's these little tiny decisions that can make the difference on what you've been dreaming about your whole life. And one thing about pants and pants have been like a, a thorn in my side for a long time because it is hard finding a perfect bow hunting pant. A lot of times, like I remember back with the, in the Under Armour days, the bottoms of the pants were too big. And it's like, it's not like I walk where I'm hitting my, you know, it's a pet peeve of mine. So my pants aren't swishing together. But when they get wet and they're like, it's just weight kind

• 10:38Cameron Hanes?

  of moving around again, and it's not efficient, it's irritating.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:41Cameron Hanes?

  So I, I always wanted like, one time they had a version that was kind of like, uh, it was called Ridge Reaper. And I was like, finally. And it's like, they stopped making it. And that was the only good pant I've had for a hundred million years until these pants. And it's like, pants for a bow hunter, if you're active in the mounds, they have, it's critical that they work like they're supposed to. And to me, they're form fitting and athletic. And that, the pants that I wore on this last bear hunt, perfect bow hunting pant.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  So we were, we were talking a little bit about this. So. There's, there's two kinds of insulation. There's active insulation, which is what you're gonna wear when you're moving. So I believe that was one of the pieces you were wearing on the Coka Dona.

• 11:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love this. This like, it is, it is amazing how warm, you know, this reminds me of like, remember the old jean jackets with the sheepskin like everybody had back in high school, but it's kinda like that, but it is so, so light and so warm. And I could run with this and it was raining. I was out there for hours and whatever you guys did that here, wet, it still kept me warm.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we actually developed that insulation with Primaloff many years ago. And it was just, you know, heavyweight fleece, grid fleece, things like that. Like that's, that's a basic form of active insulation, but it doesn't really shed any precipitation or anything. And like, we knew it could be more durable. And so anyways, we, we built these, these are different weights of the same thing. And like I was telling you earlier, you could take that, soak it in a bucket of water, put it on and go for a run. And in 45 minutes, probably sooner, just with your body heat pushing that moisture out, that garment is going to be

• 12:32Speaker 01

  completely dry. So you're like, cool, that's great performance, but like it could also, that could be the difference in saving your life.

• 12:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  And then there's just different kinds. So this is, this is the Alpha fleece that just came out, right? So depending on what you're doing and, but these are all types of active insulation. So just to give people those options.

• 12:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  And, you know, cause not everything's going to be perfect for everyone and people do things differently. So, you know, you want to give options. But this Ambient, so that's the Ambient 75, that's the Ambient 100. Um, these, th- those are two of my absolute favorite pieces. You know, I, I, they're quiet enough to, to hunt in. I mean, I've, I've killed whitetail and, and elk and mule deer wearing those.

• 13:17Cameron Hanes?

  This on the outside is so quiet.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:20Cameron Hanes?

  And I, I put that down under this when it got cold and I was super wet. Cause the down, like the shell on the down is a little scratchier.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not gonna get you.

• 13:31Cameron Hanes?

  But this stuff.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Danger clothes.

• 13:32Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, dead quiet.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is something kinda unique and I don't know if you, you got that piece or not, but.

• 13:39Cameron Hanes?

  I haven't seen this one.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  So I, I think one of the most overlooked pieces within a clothing system is a windstopper layer.

• 13:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  So, you know.

• 13:48Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  If you understand that wind strips body heat through convective cooling, that you understand, well, I gotta block the wind.

• 13:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  And so a lot of guys who are in the mountains, outside, they're like, well, I'll just put on my rain jacket, but.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Rain jackets are not normally like quiet.

• 14:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Right? So guys will ask me all the time, like, hey, man, uh, you know, how do I stalk a. Mountain goat or, or sheep in the mountains when it's like, you know, kinda misty or like high humidity or maybe a little snow? And I'm like, windstopper. And so oftentimes, so this is the Mountain Evo jacket.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Super thin windstopper, no insulation. I'll have this on and then that Ambient 100 or 75, like I put it right over top. And I built it that way. So like, this will still give you that great like range of motion to draw your bow and like do all, all the athletic things you need to do. But then you put that Ambient over top. So I block in the wind, but now I can, uh, you know, keep quiet with the Ambient, but I can also reverse them. So let's say I'm hiking, but now maybe it's starting to rain a little bit more, or snow a little bit more. I can put this. Windstopper on the outside and it's gonna shed most of that precipitation, not rain gear, but I, I say it's like.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Probably 80, 85% solution is windstopper and, and you know, not a lot of people know about it.

• 15:13Cameron Hanes?

  What I would, what I noticed is I could put on these layers and I can still draw my bow. Cause I was so used to having, not talking about any brand specifically, but to me, I just had to put on more stuff if it was colder. You just put on more stuff and then a jacket over the top. It's like, there's sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I can draw this freaking bow when I'm cold. This, for whatever you've done with the range of motion and the layering and maybe just a, just a higher quality design or, or more thought put into it. I could pu- have on four different things, which, given the circumstance, you might have to, and still draw my bow easily.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yep. Cause what's the point if you're not gonna be able to draw your bow? Like, why are you out there?

• 15:53Cameron Hanes?

  That is huge. That, it's like, it's so, I think I told you at that time, it's like, this stuff's incredible as far as layering goes.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  You hear that all the time. It's like, you know, buck of a lifetime walks by, guy can't draw his bow. Right? Or, you know, or he has bowstring clearance or, you know, whatever it is, cause he hasn't practiced wearing all that stuff. So it's like, we wanna give the minimum effective dose, but like, not so much that you just can't be that athlete.

• 16:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. For that, for that tree stand hunt, I mean, whatever that has the zipper that goes sideways.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  The fanatic.

• 16:25Cameron Hanes?

  That shit is so warm, dude.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  The fanatic.

• 16:28Cameron Hanes?

  That jacket is so warm. That was like, that was the one that sent me over the top where I'm like, I didn't know I didn't have to be miserable.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  When we build a puffy jacket, I don't wanna just build a puffy jacket. Like, we got to some new insulation, down insulation, right? And this stuff literally has gold dust on it. Like, literally.

• 16:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Can we actually, here, can you hand me that new jacket and then my old jacket? Like, I think you just were talking about this. So, is this one mine?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:57Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. This is what, I was like, this jacket is sick, right? And this is like, I thought this was a sick puffy jacket. This isn't the camo, the money, money puffy that I was talking about, but I thought.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  This one.

• 17:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. This one.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  That, that's, this is the new one.

• 17:11Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So tell me the difference. I was impressed with this one. Tell me the difference between this one and the new one.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, when you're talking, puffy jackets, static insulation, they're designed, when you're just kinda sitting there, right? Like, behind the glass in camp, you know, on the stump or the lawn chair or whatever. Um, and you're just trying to be really stingy with giving up your body heat. So that's why they're kinda lofty. But when you start to look at the insulations, you kind of have two choices, synthetic and down.

• 17:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Okay, so this black one is synthetic and it's the most highly performance driven synthetic insulation that I know of in the world. Right. But this down is what I just talked to you about, which is super lightweight, super compressible, super warm, but one of the kind of downsides of down is if it gets wet. You guys live in coastal Oregon.

• 18:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  You were just up in a wet area in Alberta. That it can get wet and then that those feathers, they just lose their loft, right? And as soon as they lose that puffiness, they lose their warmth. And so this down insulation literally has this gold dust and water repellent treatment to it. To where if it does get wet, it's going to resist kind of that compression. And then it'll dry quicker than any other down. So all of a sudden I can say, no, hey, Cam, that's a perfect jacket for you to take on your moose hunt, on your bear hunt, on your elk hunt. Like you can just take that.

• 18:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  And don't have to think about it. Like just put it on, it's going to keep you warm. This jacket is an incredible jacket, not nearly as warm as this. But this jacket I could soak in a bucket of water, you know, swim to shore, whatever. And it's going to keep me warm. But when you talk synthetic insulations, it's not going to be quite as lightweight or as compressible, right? So there's always a give and take. There's always choices.

• 19:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I would say the black one, the synthetic, I call it the pickup truck. It's like the thing you're going to use 90% of the time. But now with these new insulations, this down insulation, it's like that all of a sudden that they had to change my, my, my paradigm. I'm like, well, now you can use down for almost pretty much anything. You know, we went so far, so you know, Adam Foss and I talked about that comfort lab. Like we went back, did a video last year where we got in that comfort lab. They drove the temperature down, I think like 25. Ambient and we had these big cattle troughs of water and they froze the water. And so the water, it was frozen like an inch thick, broke the ice with a hammer.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  And then with a clothing system that we're talking about, like got, didn't have the puffy on yet, but got in the water, like with our hiking clothes on. Stayed in there for five minutes and drove our body core temp down because we had swallowed these little microchips.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  And then got out and so you're soaked. And you're thinking, well, the first thing I want to do is like strip those clothes off. But depending on where you are, what you're doing, like maybe, you know, do you have extra clothes? Or can you build a fire? Chances are you can't. So we just put this puffy jacket and pants directly over that soaking wet clothing. And then got in the down sleeping bag, to your point earlier about it wetting out.

• 20:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Just losing its loft.

• 20:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And you could tell, I mean, you could tell by the way we reacted, but also the metrics of the, of the RFID chip. They're like our body core temp stopped dropping, started coming back. Cognitive function started coming back, which means you can make better decisions in the wilderness. But it's like, that is your immediate course of action. And now it's like, okay, we've, we've stabilized, you know, the initial shock of whatever, like falling in the creek or swimming or whatever. We're not going to die of hypothermia now. Now we're just uncomfortable.

• 21:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  We can dry this out with just our body heat. And, you know, now let's build the fire. Now let's build the shelter. Now let's hike back to the truck, whatever the case may be.

• 21:20Cameron Hanes?

  What a great test.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  I mean, these puffy jackets to me, I consider them part of my survival kit.

• 21:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  So it's like your mind's your best tool, then you got some other survival tools. But like this puffy jacket, like that and a rain jacket, I know I can stay dry and stay warm. If you solve for those two, you're good to go.

• 21:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  You know? Well, and so I showed you this, this isn't out yet, but this is like a lighter weighed version. This is even lighter. So it's like one for the early season, one for the late season, right? So this is kind of piece number six. And then the last two pieces are rain jacket pant, right? So that that rounds out eight pieces. Now, we use Gore-Tex, all different kinds of Gore-Tex depending on the application. I don't know if you're gonna go back up in Hunt Grizz or Brown Bear with Kip, you know, but we've got a burlier version. So this is Dew Point. We've got a burlier version of Dew Point for like those guys and guides who are busting Alder and brush.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And so it's one and a half pounds for the set.

• 22:25Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Jacket and pants, size large, it's one and a half pounds.

• 22:30Cameron Hanes?

  This jacket is so light.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Right?

• 22:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  So, and then we've got an even lighter one. I don't know if that was the one you wore on the Coca Dona or not. But, but you know, the Gore-Tex is just like, I mean, I've trusted my life to Gore-Tex, dry suits and obviously rain gear. Like, I always try to carry some type of rain jacket as well. I kinda, I call rain gear like car insurance.

• 22:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Especially like in this country.

• 22:55Cameron Hanes?

  It's usually at the bottom of my pack.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  That's where it should live. I hope to never wear it. Like, and that's the weird thing about rain gear. Like, you kinda need it to save your life if you need it, but you hope to never bring it.

• 23:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right. There's some hunts where it never comes out, but I got it.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope to never wear rain gear again, ever in my life. But I wanted to, I wanted to show you this, because I talked about those split garments.

• 23:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  So this is a really odd looking pair of rain pants. And I'll show you another pair here. So, you can see the difference in color. So these are actually, in the rain pants, those are two different Gore-Texes. And in this pair of soft shell pants, these are two materials. And so these are called split garments. So when we have a concept, so let's say you and I talk and you're like, hey, man, like such and such pant, really, and you kinda frame up the, the concept. Like, here's the problem I'm having, like, can you solve this? And we're like, alright. And maybe we come down to two fabrics, and you don't know which one. Well, we'd make a split garment, just like this.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And give it to you or a field tester, myself, and we'd go out and the beautiful thing about this is on the same day, same environmental conditions, same activity, you can literally compare and contrast leg to leg and you're like, this, this was more durable than this, or this dried out quicker than that, or you know, whatever. And when you do that, although it takes a little more time, it costs a little more because the factory's got to do all this. You really start to dial in. So then when you get that intercept pant, you know that that is the exact right fabric for you.

• 24:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  But, uh, but, but this is kind of the level. So I talked about going into that comfort lab. And like, you know, we can put treadmills in there and, and, and all kinds of stuff. So you start in the lab. You, you start to validate there, but you hunt in the field. So then you take these garments, you put them in the field, you start here. And then you start dialing it in. So then you get down to one fabric, then you get the design, then you get the fit. And then eventually it ends up on you and you kill that bull, right? You don't, you don't, nobody has to know that.

• 24:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  But like, that is the level. And so we're putting on average, two years of development into anything we do. Some things, four to five, like, um, it, it just depends. And sometimes I'm, I'm three years in and, and for whatever reason, it just doesn't work out. And like, you just got to kill the project.

• 25:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, oh, technology isn't there. Maybe it's too expensive or whatever.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  But, but that's the level to when, when the consumer gets it and they're, you know, hunting their elk or sitting in the tree stand, hunting that blacktail like,

• 25:31Speaker 01

  that's the confidence they should have that like, we've done our due diligence upfront. To like, get them in the best thing we can.

• 25:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's just what it takes. It's like, you know, my goal, no matter what the odds are, no matter what success rates are, I mean, my, my goal is to kill on every single hunt. And I'm not satisfied unless I do. It's like, I want the animal that I'm after. I want an old animal. I want a mature animal. And I want to kill every time I go. That's my expectation. Anything less than that is a failure. I need, I need my equipment and what I do has to allow me to have that goal and to have that be achievable, have that be realistic and. Yeah, so it looks like we're on the same page with that.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Cameron Hanes?

  So that's, that's the eight piece system, huh?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  That's the eight piece system. That's all you need. People think it, it's no more complicated than that. And they're like, eight layers? I'm like, no, eight pieces.

• 26:22Cameron Hanes?

  So.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  You need base layer.

• 26:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  You need a pair of pants.

• 26:26Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  So base layer, top and bottom. You need a pair of pants. You need active insulated top. You need some type of wind stopper. You need that static puffy jacket and a rain jacket and pant. That's it. Eight pieces.

• 26:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  And I think we've all just made it a little more complicated than it needed to be. And you know, there's lots of nuance with every one of those layers, but like at the end of the day, that's all you need. So if you don't have all eight, start somewhere and then slowly over time you can get there.

• 26:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  You know, I think more, more importantly, people should go hunt and get experience and make sure they have everything exact. It's like you'll learn over time.

• 27:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  We sweat every little detail.

• 27:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  And, and a lot of them are gonna go unnoticed by the consumer, but like, I, I know, me and the team, like, we sweat every single detail. You never want to get the reputation of testing on your consumer. Like, somebody's gonna spend good money on something and we say, you know, it does this or that, like, it, it better deliver on that.

• 27:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  You know? And you can get away with a lot on, in the good weather, but you start going to the north country and stuff. Like, it's uncompromised.

• 27:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  You know, you're in the middle of nowhere.

• 27:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Like, you're not calling for a rescue anytime soon. And, and so there's that aspect. But if all of a sudden, like, you're distracted because the water's wicked up into your chest. And like, now maybe you got cold and then now maybe you're not shooting as accurately as you need to. And you have to make like the best shot of your life.

• 27:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't want to be, I don't want to be to blame for that.

• 27:54Cameron Hanes?

  And whether it's on a bear hunt or in the mountains on an elk hunt, you gotta punch that clock as long as you can every day. The more you're out there, the greater your success. And Sitka, I think, from what I've, my experience, it helps keep you out there longer. I noticed like a lot of little things like that, like a hundred years ago, there was this jacket I used to wear. And it was, because there's a big thing about, you know, your bow arm, and so it had a zipper right here. And it would just kind of suck it down. I think I remember, I don't know who, yeah, but I remember that, yeah. Something like that, but. Oh, yeah. What I remember about that zipper, this is why like details matter to me is because it had that zipper, which had more fabric along the zipper, that would gather moisture.

• 28:38Cameron Hanes?

  On that, just on that seam right there. So you're, whatever you had on would get, or that would get wet. Then it would just start wicking up. It's like, pretty soon you're all wet. But it was a great idea to, to suck that in. So your bowstring's not hitting that. Yep. But this was supposed to be an all-weather jacket and that was kind of sabotaging it. What I've noticed is I don't, I haven't noticed things like that, that kind of sabotaged the goal in the Sitka Designs. You know, it's just like, everything works.

• 29:14Cameron Hanes?

  Let me see something here.

• 29:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So he- here's one thing. So this is a, a good design and I'll just tell you, I've had, if you have underwear like this and the ones I've had, had this seam was here. Okay. Kind of comes like that. This seam holds moisture. When it holds moisture, when you're sweating, it holds sweat. When there's sweat, like on this side, that's rubbing. I've, I've rubbed my ass raw because of sweat in this seam when I'm running, you know, for hundreds of miles. So this design right here, you're not, that seam doesn't move like, like this,

• 29:57Cameron Hanes?

  like your legs, your leg action moves those seams. So salt holding in these little, so I noticed stuff like that. And that's, I hadn't looked at these because I don't think I even have any of these, but to me, I would look at this and be like, that's how it's supposed to work because I can be active, I can sweat. That's not going to tear up my skin. Yeah. Little shit like that. It's not one big thing to get you off the mountains. It's a hundred little things. Great discussion, John. I mean, so impressed. I loved going through all this. I think people are gonna, you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm like anybody else. I've been, I've tried everything. I've been through everything. Yes, I've been in the industry and I've had these relationships with other companies, but it, for whatever reason,

• 30:40Cameron Hanes?

  I'm at this point right now and to be able to share what I know, what I've learned, the hard lessons.

• 30:48Cameron Hanes?

  And just, just to just explain like this process to people. Cause I learned a lot today even and it's like, I think it's just gonna be very useful. And I think people are gonna really enjoy it. So thank you very much.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, cool. Thanks.

• 31:02Cameron Hanes?

  Thanks. All right.