Dave Smith: Mossad, WWII Myths, FBI Cover-Ups, and Trump’s Critical Next Move in Iran

Dave Smith on the fall of empire. (00:00) Who's Telling the Truth and Who's Lying? (09:12) The Massive Decline in Support for Israel (56:31) The Real Reason Antisemitism Is on the Rise (1:05:19) The Israel Lobby (1:25:51 ) Is Democracy Dead? (1:29:46) Are There Upsides to This War? Paid partnerships with: Good Ranchers: Use code TUCKER to get an additional $25 off your first order at https://go.goodranchers.com/tucker Joi + Blokes: Use code TUCKER for 50% off your labs and 20% off all supplements at https://joiandblokes.com/tucker American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.196% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www. AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Ethos: Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes at https://ethos.com/TUCKER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Tucker Carlson?

  So it does seem like in addition to everything... First of all, Dave, thank you. As always, we're late because we just had such a long breakfast, two and a half hour breakfast. I hope this conversation could be as interesting as our breakfast just was. But in addition to everything else changing, you made such a smart point a minute ago about the means of convincing the public. The propaganda machine is completely broken. And so what does that mean? You're in the middle of a war. You're in the middle of a massive power shift globally. Like, everything is changing. The economy, military strength, like, everything. And it's impossible to know who is telling the truth. Like, who comes out more credible in this, in the media?

• 1:18Tucker Carlson?

  Like, who are the people you listen to? What's that look like?

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Well, I think everybody who's being authentic, I think, is who's coming out ahead of this. It seems like if you look at, like, the podcast numbers, you know what I mean? Like, it's the people who are being critical of the regime's policies. It's the, you know, from my perspective, the people who are telling the truth. And so in the media world, I think there's been this... You know, as you know, because you were in the old media world for so long...

• 1:50Tucker Carlson?

  Only 35 years, not...

• 1:51Speaker 02

  There you go. Not that long. A little bit. You put a little bit of time in.

• 1:54Tucker Carlson?

  I'm implicated, yes.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  But look, I always thought, and I mean this, I used to watch you back on your MSNBC show. And you were always... One of the very few kind of authentic people, you know, when you were wrong about stuff and things that you look back on and you're like, oh, I've changed my mind about all that. But it's an incredibly phony world, like, like news in general, there's something about it that's very, you know, it's very, welcome back to the six o'clock news and, you know, like, it's just like, what is that? That's not how you talk.

• 2:23Tucker Carlson?

  Credibility doesn't derive from being right about everything. Credibility derives from being honest.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. But so I think after, um, after the first 20 years or so, first 15 years of the 21st century, and, you know, at this point, what it were 26 years into the 21st century now, it's, uh, the government, every single crises that that's happened, and we've had quite a few, you know, at nine 11, and we had the global war on terrorism, we had the huge financial crash in 2008, we had COVID, we had that. Okay. So on every single crises, the government and the media just lied through their teeth to the American people and got exposed. Like, it's not like anyone now thinks, like, maybe Saddam really did have weapons of mass destruction. Like, we all know, we all know if you get the vaccine, you can get

• 3:11Speaker 02

  COVID. Turns out, you can get COVID even after having the vaccine, as everyone who got the vaccine also got COVID, or just about. Um, and, and so it was like, all these phonies in media, lying us, on behalf of power, lying to us about these policies. And at the same time, as they were getting exposed for all of this, and I do think COVID did it almost more than anything, because the global war on terrorism was over there, but COVID was over here and affected everyone. Also, obviously, the, you know, covering for a clearly, um, senile president was a pretty easy one for everyone to see through. But so, while all that was happening, also, the technology, you know, simultaneously got to a point where,

• 3:56Speaker 02

  you know, you can do this. For a reasonable amount of money, you know what I mean? Like, it's not, in 1980, if you wanted to set up your own TV studio, you needed a corporation to get behind you because who had the resources? Whereas everyone now can open their computer. If you have a phone, you can record yourself and put it out there. So the technology allowed for tremendous parody, and the lying us into all of these disasters resulted in people really craving authenticity. And so, you know, it's just like, the propaganda machine got broken. Now, to your point, the policies are still going on, and that just creates a very interesting new time.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Like, there just, there never was, I cannot imagine if, while George W. Bush was trying to, you know, push the war in Iraq, let's say for all of 2002, they spent the full year building the case for what? Well, imagine every day, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity were calling out George W. Bush for his lies. Like, the people who George W. Bush voters trusted the most were hearing their favorite newscaster calling it, telling the truth, doing news. Well, you can't even fathom what that would be like. Well, that's what it's like now. Now, that's the situation. And I don't know what that means exactly,

• 5:19Speaker 02

  but I know that governments all around the world have invested heavily in propaganda campaigns for a reason, because they think that's really important. They think it's important that they don't just go invade Iraq, but that they convince you first that he's got nuclear weapons, and he's in bed with the terrorists, and they're, you know, whatever Condoleezza Rice, "We don't want the warning to be in the form of a mushroom cloud from the bomb that doesn't exist." His terrorist friends who he hates, who he's not friends with at all, but, um, but, so now we're in this new world, and it's very exciting as someone who's a part of it, and it's, it's an exciting moment to be alive, but it is certainly a dangerous one. You know, they say the most dangerous time for a woman to leave, uh,

• 6:02Speaker 02

  the most dangerous time for an abused woman is when she tries to leave.

• 6:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Right? Like, that's when he might kill you. And that's kind of how I feel about the government right now.

• 6:11Tucker Carlson?

  I think you're, I think that's, first of all, so well put, and also so true, because it can't actually last that much longer, because the disparity in power is too great. So I think a lot of people who have podcasts... Um, I've been in so many different kinds of media, it's hard to remember what this one's called. It's podcasting. It's the same, you know.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Sure. It's a kind of silly term that doesn't really make sense.

• 6:32Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  We don't have iPods anymore. I don't know why. It just, that one just stuck for whatever reason.

• 6:37Tucker Carlson?

  It's so true, but people who have, you know, in independent media feel like they have a lot of power. I've got so much power. They have no power. They don't control the, the medium, really. They don't control YouTube.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:50Tucker Carlson?

  They don't have the FBI at their disposal. They don't have nuclear weapons. So actually they are powerless. And through a quirk of history, because we're in a change moment, that's not obvious, but it has to be obvious. There's too much at stake, right?

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, there was a.

• 7:07Tucker Carlson?

  Don't they have to be crushed?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  I think it was the CNN lady. She used to work for Vice, I believe, but the, the girl who was like known for interviewing like the alt-right figures and she interviewed Tim Dillon last year and it was right after Trump, uh, won his election and, or shortly after. And she said, you know, something like, you guys are the real, uh, the power center now, you know? And she's like, yeah, you podcasters, you guys are the ones with power. Cause I guess, well, okay, the more people watch these shows than watch the traditional shows.

• 7:36Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  And Trump came and did a bunch of them and then he won reelection and Kamala Harris was too scared for wisely. People say, that was a real mistake. She should have done Rogan. No, it wasn't. It was a really good call. It was a really, really good call by her team to not do Rogan, actually. It's like after 2016, when they were like, well, you know, Hillary Clinton's campaign is so stupid. She didn't visit Wisconsin more. And you're like, you really think they're that stupid? No, her numbers went down every time she went. So they're like, stop going.

• 8:03Tucker Carlson?

  They didn't like her. That's why she didn't go.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  That's which it was actually the, her best chance was that. Um, but anyway, but so the, so, you know, they say, oh, you guys, you know, since you guys got President Trump elected, you're the real power center now. And it's like, pretty sure the CIA still has a little bit of power. I think there's still like a little bit hanging on in the Pentagon. I'm not quite sure. It's all in Theo Von's hands at this point, you know? Um, but yes, so, so that's the dynamic.

• 8:28Tucker Carlson?

  Can't continue. I mean, let's be totally honest. If you, what everyone forgets about Tank Man in Tiananmen Square is like, he probably got, we don't even know what happened to him. We don't know his name. Probably crushed by the tank, actually.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Almost certainly, yes.

• 8:42Tucker Carlson?

  Almost certainly. I'm not laughing. I am laughing because just the delusion that people have. I've got a voice. It's like, oh.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Well, but that's the weird, it's very strange for both these things to be going on at the same time. That's why I said to you at breakfast, my analogy is the, you know, on the Road Runner cartoons, when you run off the side of the cliff.

• 9:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  But you're still in air for a moment and then you look down and realize, oh, it's like we're there. Like, how can you keep doing this? So those people, I mean, and, you know, obviously for me personally, like, it's kind of fascinating because I've been in this world and over the last two and a half years or so, I've done, I mean, like, if you count, like, all the, you know, debates and the Pierce Morgan debates or Oxford-style debates, I've done, like, thirty-five, forty debates on, you know, just Israel or the warfare state or whatever it is, Ukraine, a lot of these things. And I've never, it's like, the side, broadly speaking, because there's a lot of differences

• 9:46Speaker 02

  amongst people who disagree with, say, the war in Iran or US support for Israel destroying Gaza. But broadly speaking, it's not only like we've won the debate, we've, like, just crushed the, you know, and it's not just me, there's lots of people involved in this, you more so probably than anyone, but when you see, like, you look at the polls, there was this one poll I saw, and this is just one poll, but there's a lot that back this up, but that it was before October 7th, they'd ask, who do you sympathize with more, the Israelis or the Palestinians? And it was plus forty-eight for the Israelis.

• 10:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  It's now plus-one for the Palestinians.

• 10:30Tucker Carlson?

  In the US.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  In the US. And to just think, so basically a fifty-point shift in a little over two years. And Tucker, I mean, I don't know, you've been... You were doing this for longer than me. When does that ever happen? When does any issue ever swing by 50 points in two years? It would be like if you, if I were to tell you in two years, this country would be 95% pro-life. You'd be like, whoa, what happened in those two years? Well, I mean, the pro-lifers must have really won the argument. You know what I mean? Like, and so now that we've had for the first time ever, a media environment where, say, Israel is not completely protected. Like, what were the debates about supporting Israel on MSNBC or CNN? No, they don't exist.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  They never happen. You're not allowed to have those debates there. There's not, maybe like one kind of critical of Israel host will slip in here or there. But if he says too much, he's getting fired pretty quickly. And so, so we essentially won the debate. We, it's not close. It's not, there's not a question of-

• 11:32Tucker Carlson?

  But it's happened so fast.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yes, in a very short period of time, because there was actually a fair, open media system now, where, you know, it was really democratized in a way. And so you can't look and go, does, you know, are, you're bigger than you've ever been before. Candace Owens is bigger than she's ever been before. I know, I'm bigger than I've ever been before. Ben Shapiro is weaker and more of a laughing stock than ever before. You know, like, it's just very, but then, at the same time, who won the policy game? Mark Levin. You know, the president is tweeting, "Go watch Mark Levin's show today." And his, his base, his voters are going, "I think I'll check out Tucker Carlson, you know, I think I'll..." And so, so anyway, there's just this very weird thing where like,

• 12:18Speaker 02

  we won the argument. We had the national debate. We, and we won. And yet we're at war with Iran on behalf of Israel. And I think what you're getting at is like, that does just feel totally unsustainable. Like, there's either you gotta clamp down on these guys like us, or you gotta reverse the policy. And I'm really hoping it's the latter.

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• 15:32Speaker 02

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• 15:33Tucker Carlson?

  People don't like to be criticized for their mistakes, and I know this from having a wife and children. Totally fine to be, you know, criticized for something you feel confident is the right thing. But if you screw something up and someone says, say, say, I told you, you want to shoot the person. It's, it's very hard for people to, to deal with that. And so if you have a war like this, which is obviously, you know, is one of the most profound moments of my lifetime. This is much more profound than nine 11, I think. Thankfully, not as, you know, very relatively few Americans have died, but you can see that this is the end of something. And the consequences are very, very serious.

• 16:11Tucker Carlson?

  In the middle of that, to criticize the decision to start the process that led to this, it feels like you're going to be punished for that.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:20Tucker Carlson?

  Do you feel that?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I know exactly what you mean. And I, you know, I, I almost, um, like on some, I don't know. In some way, I feel like, I like the political thing or the, the wise calculation here would almost be to be like, uh, Mr. President Trump, you did such a phenomenal job with this and it's such a success that we should just stop right now and declare victory or something like, you know what I mean? But I'm just no good at being a political operative. I'm only good at telling the truth. Like it's all I, I only have one speed. You know, Ben, Ben Shapiro, uh, called me out recently and called me a bunch of names and then, uh, said, she said, I know, I can hear Dave right now saying, debate me, bro. If you believe this, why don't you debate me?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  And he goes, no, no, I don't debate with, but he's kind of right in a way that that is my response.

• 17:07Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I only have one speed. It's all I know how to do. Like come podcast with me. Like, I don't know anything else. So, um,

• 17:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, because you're rooted in kind of the old America where, you know, there was a free market, not just in the economy, but like intellectually, free market of ideas.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're supposed to have it at least.

• 17:24Tucker Carlson?

  Um, yeah, that the whole country was built on that.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, but so that is,

• 17:28Tucker Carlson?

  Shapiro and et cetera, they don't share that view at all.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  He knows the ideas can't hold up. I mean, he'll, he'll debate a 19 year old gender confused kid because he knows he can win that debate. You know, it's not that that kid's more serious than me, you know, that's not really the issue. But the, but anyway, I guess, so just that, like, I only have one speed. I only know how to just tell you what I think is, is really going on here. And, and I think you're right. I think it's, this is such a disaster because. Donald Trump, first of all, it'd be very difficult at this point, even if he wanted to just stop the thing, which I think he does at this point, want to stop the thing. I think he, it seems to me like he believed this could be quick and easy like Venezuela, and we're way past that at this point. But he can't just stop now.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Obviously, there's the Iranians and the Israelis are involved in this too, and it doesn't, it doesn't seem like either of them want to stop right now. So there, you got a big problem. But also, look, this isn't Venezuela. There's, I don't know what the latest CENTCOM numbers are. Thirteen dead Americans was the last I saw. The 150-plus wounded number came out weeks ago. I don't know what that's up to now. Our bases and, you know, in the region have been very badly damaged. The damage to the global economy is, so it's not Venezuela, you know, you can't just come out of this and then pretend something really great happened. If he stops right now, then it's like, oh, you just started a disaster for no reason on behalf of a foreign country.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Like, this is just awful. And then there's a couple of factors, I've seen this play, I know you've seen this over the years, certainly during the global war on terrorism, where there is, I guess what you could call, like, the sunk cost fallacy of war, which is the worst of all sunk cost fallacies. You know, but it's, you go, you go, well, those boys died for nothing if we don't finish the job. And it's like, oh, man, is that a bad trap to get into? Because the reality is that those boys died for nothing. That's over. And if you continue this, more boys will die for nothing.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  And so no one, you know, Pierce Morgan had a panel once, or a debate between Scott Horton, who is the, as you know, you've had him on the show, the most incredible foreign policy guy in the country, like, just unbelievable levels of brilliance. And his books, Enough Already, Fools' Errand, which are about the global war on terrorism, are the best books written on the subject. His book Provoked, about the war in Ukraine, is the best book written on the subject.

• 20:02Tucker Carlson?

  They're literally exhaustive. I only know Scott Horton because of you and what... Improvement to my life.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he's the, he is the, he's been such an incredible resource, like, he's a good, great friend of mine. Uh, one of my closest friends, but he's also just been, he's like my mentor in the foreign policy stuff. And he's just so great because he's like, he's such a tool because he's got a photographic memory. So like, I can literally just call him at any point and you'll just be like, when Iran invaded Iraq in 1980, in 1982, weren't they fighting here? And then he'll just be like, yeah, they were fighting here and here. And then this guy has all their names and everything. It's really incredible. But, so he was debating Wesley Clark on Pierce Morgan's show. Talk about the new media world that we live in and how crazy it is now that Scott Horton gets to square off with a four-star general.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  And Wesley Clark, who, you know, look, I have my issues with him, but he did give us that great admission about the seven countries in five years. So I'll always kind of be grateful to him now. He tries to walk that back, but we all heard what you said. But he goes at one point, talking about, uh, I believe it was Gaza, if I'm getting this correct. He, and he said this was while it was still, you know, in intensely going on. And he goes, but if we just leave now, then Hamas gets to say they won. And you're like, sir, general, that's your opinion on war? But that's a recipe to be in forever war always. We can't ever leave anywhere because, so what happens is you get this thing where it's like,

• 21:30Speaker 02

  there's the sunk cost fallacy. We can't leave now because we, we have to win. And then Donald Trump is now, of course, he put his entire presidency on the line for this, which was really foolish. And so now he's just, he's, he's got to get a win. Let me get a win and then I can get out, you know? So let's do a big thing. But then you do a big thing and they respond with a big thing. And then you go, shoot, now we got to respond to that. And this is the escalation trap, right? Like that, and, and this was what people like me and you have been talking about for years. And at the, all the warhawks in the country really enjoyed mocking me and you for the last seven months,

• 22:08Speaker 02

  or whatever it's been from between the 12-day war and, and this latest war in Iran going, oh, you guys were acting like this was going to be a disaster. And look, it wasn't a disaster. Okay, we're back in it now and it's a disaster. And precisely zero of those people are going, oh, I guess I was wrong about that.

• 22:25Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, they'll, they'll be clamoring for you to be arrested and imprisoned.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:29Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, right? Because, you know, your existence is a mark of shame. Because you remember, right? So anyone who remembers has to be taken off the board. I'm just interested not, I never think about, um, you know, those, those people, the Mark Levin. I say a prayer for Mark Levin every day because it's my religion I'm supposed to. But he's not, I mean, Mark Levin's an idiot. He's not pulling any strings. He's a tool of larger forces here. What I'm fascinated by are the assumptions that like ordinary, non-Mark Levin Americans have about the United States, the nature of power, history, that allowed us to make the greatest mistake of my lifetime, which is this war. What are those, and a lot of this has to do with the Second World War.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 23:13Tucker Carlson?

  So we're reading the wrong lessons into that. And I just want to say for the hundredth time, I'm the opposite of pro-Nazi. I'm against authoritarianism in all its forms. But why is it that we look at the Second World War and then make a bunch of false assumptions that get us into engagements like this that hurt us? What is that? What are the myths?

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Well, I think the way, the way I look at it, right? And, um, this is, you know, I've defended Daryl Cooper quite publicly, quite often for what he said on your show, which really it was, by the way, it's so revealing and totally proves his point, the response to that. Because there's just no reason why that should have been such a huge thing, you know? But like, the thing is that-

• 24:00Tucker Carlson?

  Hey, Daryl Cooper, did Hitler kill a lot of Jews? Yeah, he did. He did like hours of podcasts on it.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:05Tucker Carlson?

  Of course Hitler killed a lot of Jews. I mean, what? That's not even-

• 24:08Speaker 02

  He just, he just put out, uh, episode two of his new, uh, series on World War II, which I have not, I heard the first one. I've not gotten a chance to listen to the second one yet. The first one's so good. They're all so good.

• 24:17Tucker Carlson?

  It's not really about that. I don't think any sane person, I've never heard anybody in my life say Hitler didn't kill a ton of Jews or Hitler, like, love the Jews. No, Hitler hated the Jews, killed a ton of Jews. That's bad. Everyone agrees with that. It's not really the Holocaust that they're mad about. That's not-

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Well, look, I mean-

• 24:34Tucker Carlson?

  The threat.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Right.

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• 26:18Speaker 06

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• 26:46Speaker 02

  So World War II was, objectively speaking, the worst thing that's ever happened in the world.

• 26:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Right, is the biggest bloodbath in human history.

• 26:55Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  And destroyed Europe and go, it's just so, it's so horrible you think about that, that humanity reached such a height in the 19th century. The 19th century, there's two things that happened that could not have been predicted, you would have seemed insane if you had predicted it beforehand. Probably the two greatest achievements in human history are that, well, there's the Industrial Revolution and for the first time ever, there like, there's economic growth. You know, like if you, if you look at economic growth on a chart, it basically doesn't exist until the Industrial Revolution.

• 27:30Tucker Carlson?

  There's just different apportionments of wealth.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So for the first time ever, human beings escaped like the back brushing, backbreaking poverty of nature. You know what I mean?

• 27:41Tucker Carlson?

  Or they escaped zero sum economics.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yes, they were right, zero sum economics, but just.

• 27:46Tucker Carlson?

  Or people got rich by looting. Now you could get rich by creating things that didn't exist before.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  And we could raise the standard of living in a meaningful way, in very basic, you know, ways. And also there was the abolition of slavery, which just would have seemed like that, that was the way of the world for all of human history. And I'm saying the abolition of slavery in the West, obviously there are other parts of the world that still had it.

• 28:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  And the Industrial Revolution was in the West also, so you know, but these amazing things happen. And then in the 20th century, we take that industrial capacity to go to total war with each other. And in the case of the First World War, just over nonsense, I mean, over a political assassination.

• 28:22Tucker Carlson?

  It's not even clear.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not like somehow this thing spins into this catastrophe. But so after World War II, that's even bloodier than World War I, which was supposed to be the war to end all wars. And it wasn't. It was the war to create the conditions for the worst war in human history. And of course, as you've talked about and gotten a lot of heat for, civilians were targeted on all sides. Now, of course, we didn't go genocidal in the way that Adolf Hitler went.

• 28:48Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  But we targeted cities where we knew the military was out, you know, targeting women and children, dropping nuclear bombs on, on cities. And so, and also, um, the kind of.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  The, the military industrial complex, the national security apparatus were truly created in, in the aftermath of, of World War II. Like there were intelligence, but the CIA is created. And that, you know, the form of government that we actually live under was kind of erected during and after World War II. And so you've got the most profoundly awful thing that's ever happened. And this new government, plus a new government in Israel, a couple of years later that are, are created. And so it, when you have something like that, you really got to tell yourself a damn good story about why that is justified. And that's not, when you say this, sometimes people go, oh, so are you saying the Holocaust didn't really happen? It's like, no, they don't. It really

• 29:45Speaker 02

  happened. It really happened. The point is that, yes, the point is that the Holocaust happened in a context of 60 million people dying. You know what I mean?

• 29:54Tucker Carlson?

  It's just so funny. It's all reduced to the, okay, just to be totally clear, not denying the Holocaust. Okay. It's not about that. The thing, the immediate post-war changes that you just listed, the deindustrialization of the West, the partition of India, the, you know, the creation of the national security state, if I could say, an authoritarian national security state in the West, the, you know, delivering half of Europe to the Soviets.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:21Tucker Carlson?

  The partition of Germany, like, these are all the genocide of German civilians after, genocide of German civilians after the war.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Mass, mass ethnic cleansing, mass, mass rapes and murders, all types of horrible stuff.

• 30:34Tucker Carlson?

  So none of, it's not a defense of Hitler, whom I oppose, to say, all of those are bad. It's just kind of interesting that this war, which was supposedly so great, gave birth to things that are just objectively the worst things.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and

• 30:48Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Well, look, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a disaster of, of government, you know, total power. And there, but look, even like, if you say like, if you're talking about the Revolutionary War, like, let's just say, like, back in the 1980s, or something like, it's a, a school teacher's teaching kids about the Revolutionary War. They don't go like, Well, you know, the King of England was taxing a little bit more than he should. And then the framers kind of had these wild conspiracy theories about what he was gonna come do. None of that was really true. And anyway, they got into the, you know, they tell you George Washington never told a lie. And when he chopped down the apple tree, he said to his pa, I can't lie to you. Cause like, human beings just need this narrative. Of course.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  And so what ended up happening was that the, the very, when you challenge World War II orthodoxies, you're challenging what Daryl calls the load bearing myths, you know, the, the load bearing pillars. Right. Of the existence of the most powerful forces in the world. And, you know, you know, look, it's, it's very clear. Like, again, the reaction to Daryl is the proof of the claim. Like, what is this? If, if somebody were to say, you know, this is how you find out what the national religion really is. You know, I could sit here and trash Thomas Jefferson for raping his slaves. Doesn't matter what you say about him. It doesn't matter. This isn't gonna generate any outrage at all, you know? Um, in fact, it might generate some applause from in different quarters. And so, but, but you

• 32:17Speaker 02

  talk about this and it's very, very different. And then, as you've seen, as we've all seen, it's used to justify every subsequent war. I mean, like, everybody is Hitler. To justify authoritarianism. Yeah, that's right. Everybody is Adolf Hitler. I've lived through the, the, you know, um, it's Saddam Hussein was Adolf Hitler, Noriega was Adolf Hitler, Bashar al-Assad is Adolf Hitler, Vladimir Putin's Adolf Hitler, you're Adolf Hitler, Nick Fuentes is Adolf Hitler. Like, every, every time they wanna smear someone, that's the smear they go with. Donald Trump got the same treatment. Um, and, and anytime you oppose a war, well, you're Neville Chamberlain.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  You know, if I, if I think like, hey, we should just put in writing that will never bring Ukraine into NATO. Cause man, this is causing all these problems. Okay Neville Chamberlain, you would have just given Czechoslovakia. It's like, dude, that's not the only lesson in history. The only lesson in history is not always go with aggression, never go with de-escalation. But so that's kind of what this has been turned into and I do think, um.

• 33:23Tucker Carlson?

  But I would just say, big picture, if it was such a victory, why are all the winners falling apart less than a hundred years later?

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point.

• 33:33Tucker Carlson?

  I don't, again, shut up, you're pro Hitler for the fifth time, not pro Hitler in any sense.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Well, to quote.

• 33:40Tucker Carlson?

  What's the answer to that question?

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Well, there's a brilliant philosopher named Rosie Perez. And in the film White Men Can't Jump, she said, sometimes when you win, you really lose.

• 33:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  And you know, it is, it is such a simple, but very, very true statement. And there is something about, well, isn't it kind of interesting that the United States of America started as the experiment in restrained government? Right? Like there had really never been a government that was created that was so restrained. And the whole idea of it was like, we're going to take the power of a king and then we're going to scatter that amongst three different branches in the federal government. And the federal government really only oversees all these state governments that have their own autonomy. And we are these United States of America. And even as we became more centralized, obviously the Articles of Confederation got overthrown and the constitution gets put in.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  And, and then, you know, but even say like, if you look after this, from the end of the civil war. This was always the best stuff about like Milton Friedman books and stuff, but there, in this part, I really think those Chicago guys got it right. That if you look from the end of the civil war, so like 19, or excuse me, 1865 to around, say, 1910. Okay. In this period of time. The, you know, try to imagine that this was our government, okay? The, the US government, the, the federal government spent like, maybe like one and a half or two percent of the national income, a tiny amount of spatter. There was no mass federal regulation or anything like that. There was no central bank, there was no income tax.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Just try to imagine, like, this was truly in the closest to a real experiment in free market capitalism that humanity had ever seen. And the result of that was the biggest economic expansion in human history, the greatest raising of the, of the lot and life of the average person, you know, like where the average person could actually have a pretty nice life and you could work at the factory and your wife didn't have to work and you owned a house and you sent your kids to college and you drove a couple cars, you played poker on the weekends with your buddy, like you had a good life. And if you look at the United States of America today, it is the most powerful government in the history of the world. Like somehow this thing that started as an experiment in the smallest government became the biggest government that the world's ever known.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  And so there's almost something where, well, what happens is these free markets create so much prosperity that there's so much more of a tax base. And now the political class can tax you more and more and more and you're still living a pretty good life even though they're getting fat off of you, you know what I mean? And so similarly, sometimes, something like after World War II, you see this with America and then you really see it after the collapse of the Soviet Union, where it's like because you win, you get so much power. But as Lord Atkins said, that power tends to corrupt. And so you get all this power, but then it totally corrupts your own soul. And I think that's kind of the story of America.

• 36:42Tucker Carlson?

  And I think it's the story of our lives. I mean, the number of men I know who've gotten what they wanted, what they worked for, the job, the exit, you know, sale of whatever they built, all of a sudden they, they win and then they fall apart. I've seen that so much. I felt it in my own life, by the way. For sure, you know, easy success is not good for you at all. Struggle is good for you. And so I wonder if the United States was hollowed out by its own victory. This loss, and unfortunately, I think we can say already. It's hard to imagine getting out of this without being diminished.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, what is, what is a victory here? I mean, you know, it's also a terrible situation where victory might, victory, might be the worst case scenario. I mean, like, you know, like victory, like if the whole goal is to topple the regime. You're like, okay, but every other time we've toppled a regime in this neck of the woods. It's led to migrant crises and death and terrorism.

• 37:42Tucker Carlson?

  You can't topple a regime in the Persian Gulf because the world's energy supply needs to move through it. You have to extract it, refine it, make it into petrochemicals, do whatever you fertilize, do whatever you want in the Persian Gulf, and then you have to get it out of the Persian Gulf. So that means you have to have a controlling authority. You have to have strong governments there or else some rebel group, Houthis with drones, will shut the whole thing down. You have to have, you can't have chaos in Iran.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, they call it the Persian Gulf for a reason.

• 38:10Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. You can call it the Arabian Gulf, the other half is Persian. It doesn't matter. Chaos in the Persian Gulf means no energy or fertilizer from the Persian Gulf, period. So you're going to piracy there. So I just, so the option to that is keeping an Iranian regime in place. And that means that Iran is more powerful than it was when the war started. This is also obvious, unless you nuke them, which is, I think, an option. And, and then you set off a chain reaction that, you know, is the worst thing imaginable. Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary. You work 40, 50 hours a week just to buy groceries and gas, things you used to be able to afford without thinking that much about it. Then the banks charge you 20% interest. If the system is designed to keep you underwater, it's working, but there's another option.

• 38:56Tucker Carlson?

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• 39:41Tucker Carlson?

  America's home for

• 39:42Speaker 00

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• 40:12Speaker 07

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• 40:27Tucker Carlson?

  Home Loans. So, anyway, I think there's no way to see this as a win. I pray it is, but I don't see it. If it is a loss, maybe that is not all bad for the US?

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Well, there is, uh, I think sometimes things need to get really bad before they get better. You know, that things need to get bad so that people wake up even more. There's no question, people have woken up a lot, but maybe people just need to get angrier, you know? And, and I, I don't know. I don't know what

• 40:59Tucker Carlson?

  I'm trying to see this in the fullness of history and God's plan, but I just, because it feels like such a disaster, it's affecting my sleep. I love America. I have kids. I don't want this to happen. I'm not in control, obviously. So, but I do think that, like, You're often surprised by the downstream results of things. I think people who return from Normandy would be shocked by the condition of the United States and Great Britain 80 years later. They are shocked. Have you seen them interviewed some 100 year old guys like, "We died for this?"

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, it's, and it's totally, I mean, like, talk about just disgracing their sacrifice.

• 41:32Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it's the greatest disgrace. Our self-abasement is an insult to their, to their sacrifice on our behalf. But I wonder if the opposite isn't also true, that maybe in your defeat, there are things that, I know this is true for me. Every time I've gotten sick or gotten fired, like, I just, I understand the world better and I become more joyful and stronger. Do you feel that?

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, for sure. I mean, many times in my life, and yeah, you lose, you learn a lot more from your losses.

• 42:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, your defeats are actually your victories in retrospect.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  That's right. And, but, you know, the problem is just, this is, man, we're just playing with fire with this thing because it's so dangerous. You know, it's, um,

• 42:14Tucker Carlson?

  What worries you most?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Well, I guess, I'd say, number one, I, what we're doing to those people over there, I mean, I think is just like horrible. And I don't say this as, like, I'm not trying to like virtue signal that I care so much more than other people, but like when your government takes your money and just starts slaughtering people in, in poor countries compared to us, you know, it's just so profoundly wrong.

• 42:44Tucker Carlson?

  What you do to others will be done to you. That's a physics principle. You can't get away from that. So that's just true.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Well, imagine, imagine like, uh, there was a guy who was, uh, like a convicted pedophile, and he had molested a bunch of like Iraqi children or a bunch of Iranian children. And then you were like, well, I'm gonna have him babysit my kids. He only does it over there. You know what I mean? Like, you only, you only, you're like, what? No, dude. He's hurt children. You can't let him anywhere near your children. Okay, well, these, these same monsters in government are the ones who are ruling over me and my family and my country. And the idea that you just go kill, like, you know, uh, I know, I said this on, on Rogan's show the other day about the, the school that we had, where he killed like 165 or 170, uh, little girls. And then people, you know, give me shit, those numbers haven't been verified. That's just the claim of the Iranian government goes, well, our government's not denying it.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  And in fact, they did an investigation and concluded it was almost certainly us. It was a tomahawk missile. What, what's the question here? We know where this came from. The only question left is like, who gave it that coordinates or, or did it miss or was that intentional? Whatever. But like, kill a whole bunch of eight-year-old girls? I mean, Jesus, man, is there anything more evil you could do than that? So just on a, on a basic human level, you know, there's like, this is horrible.

• 44:01Tucker Carlson?

  Anyone who would do that, I think it was clearly accidental. But I also think having done a lot of accidental things, it's essential to apologize for it.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:09Tucker Carlson?

  And anyone who doesn't apologize for it's a dangerous person.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Well, also even-

• 44:13Tucker Carlson?

  If you do that to them, you'll do it to my kids.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and it also, it stretches the definition of accidental a little bit because even if very specifically, like, we were trying to hit this building, but instead we hit this building. And there's a point I've been making largely through the, um, Israel's destruction of Gaza, which is, was not that at all. They were just leveling the place. But you go, look, man, like, you start, you start dropping bombs on people, you start blowing things up, and you know innocent people are gonna end up dying in that. So in that sense, it is intentional and maybe you didn't mean to hit that exact, you know, target or kill that many people. But like, if, I'm just saying, if you, if you, you know, if you blew up a building, you know, that you, you suspected somebody else was in,

• 44:58Speaker 02

  but then it turned out that there were a bunch of little kids there, it's still a pretty profound crime. Um, but then, of course, on, on top of that, I, I really worry about getting trapped into a, a broader war, a wider war. There is not, I, and I don't, I'm not saying that I think this is gonna be like Iraq or Afghanistan. I think already this is very different than Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan did not have the ability to do what Iran is doing right now, for one. Number two, I just don't- I don't think it's gonna be that. I don't think, I think it would be more the Libya or Syria model than than the Iraq or Afghanistan model, which did require a small amount of

• 45:39Speaker 02

  ground forces. So we used head chopping Bin Ladenites in both of those cases and put the Bin Ladenites in power in Syria. But just to be clear, our country would not survive another Iraq or Afghanistan. There's no United States of America coming out of that. We don't have a 20-year catastrophic ground invasion in us. Like, it will, it will bankrupt the country, it will destroy the culture, the country culturally. So like, so that's a very scary thing. We don't have, you know, in, in the launch of the global war on terrorism, we were coming out of the 1990s. This was a different country in the 1990s, you know? And, and anyone who was alive then knows this. Different people lived here.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Different people, different culture, different economic realities, different military realities. Now, then the other thing that I really, really worry about with all of this is that we've never really had, we've never dealt with a full, like, Shiite Jihad war against the West. You know, our beef was always with the Sunni radicals. Those were the terrorists. We had to worry about the Al Qaeda and ISIS and stuff like that. And that was quite a big problem. You know, we, we had a map, a lot of terrorist attacks in America and in, in Europe, particularly ISIS-inspired attacks, Al Qaeda as well. And,

• 47:03Speaker 02

  you know, so I've, I've kind of called out some of these, some of these people. I'll do it again here because they're, they're like some of the biggest frauds in the country, these like pretend intellectuals, like Sam Harris and Gad Saad and guys like this who have spent a career demonizing Muslims. Their entire career has been talking about what irrational, violent people Muslims are, how awful the religion is. And, and, you know, and look, there's been some points that I agree with them on, you know? If someone, you know, writes a cartoon about Muhammad, you don't have the right to kill them. Sorry. You want to be in the West, these are our rules here. We value free speech and I can make a cartoon about whatever the hell I want to make a cartoon about. Okay, but if

• 47:45Speaker 02

  you spent your whole career arguing how violent and irrational the Muslims are, what, what does killing an Ayatollah mean?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  You know, you know, that's not just a political figure. You know, you murder in Ayatollah and his entire family. And we've already had a couple terrorist attacks over here that at least seem like there was the shooting in Austin, Texas that came like the day after we launched the war. And the guy was wearing like an Allah Akbar t-shirt. I'm assuming that might be related. And so, you know, then you have this real issue of like, there's unfortunately in in the old like controlled American media and all the, you know, the, all the people like Mark Levin and all these guys, when they talk to their audience, whatever audience they got left, and they always love to talk about how Iran chants "Death to America", you know, which they do.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  And I'd like it if they stopped doing that. It's not the nicest chant. But none of them ever even try to say, to even approach the question of why? Why do they chant "Death to America"? Why do they hate us so much? And this was always- Well, they hate us for our freedoms. Yes, right.

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• 49:59Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 50:28Speaker 08

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• 50:43Speaker 02

  This was after, this is so funny, that it is so funny that that was, funny in a dark way, but that that was actually the question. I remember, I was 18 when 9/11 happened. I remember asking that question with all sincerity. And that was actually the national conversation. That was the first question before it got answered with, they had, when 9/11 happened, the average Joe Sixpack American went, "Why do they hate us?" That's how ignorant we were of our own position in the world. We didn't even know there was a beef. You go, "What are we talking?" We thought Bill Clinton was the time of peace and prosperity. That's what Americans considered that time, the time of peace. Iraqis did not consider that a time of peace. Hundreds of thousands of them were getting killed due to the blockade, Clinton's bombing campaign. It wasn't peace in Serbia. You know what I mean?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  It wasn't like there, but to us, it was like, "Oh, that has to have been little wars." They didn't really mean anything, you know? But it wasn't, now, all you gotta do is ask that question. And I'm sure it's almost like implicit in the Mark Levin world that, "Well, why do they hate us?" "Well, I don't know, because they're crazy Durkha Durka people, and they hate us, you know? They're Islamo fascists, I don't know." That's what they do, they hate. But if you ask Iranians, and not the ones who are, you know, paid by Mossad to promote wars, but like if you, they'll tell you very quickly why they hate us. And the whole beef, right, goes back to 1953. We overthrew their government. We installed a dictator who they did not like very much, who was not very kind to his political opponents, to put it mildly.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  And then the other big thing that they point out all the time is in 1980, Saddam Hussein invaded Iraq. Now, a lot of people from my generation remember this because this is actually what the neocons would, would, they would often like vaguely cite this when they were trying to push the war against Iraq. They're like, he used chemical weapons against civilians. Like, yeah, what they leave out is that they were backing him when he did that. They facilitated the sale of those chemical weapons to him. And they backed and gave the green light for Saddam Hussein to invade the country. And so, you know, Iranians remember that. Like, they remember that.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  There was, I think, 500 or 600,000 Iranians died in that war. Like, they remember this very well. By the way, another lesson from that war is they never surrendered. Even after taking losses like that, these Shiites are not playing around when it comes to matters like that. They fought and fought and fought. And so, anyway, I say all that just to say that it's like, these things do inspire hatred. And they inspire hatred for generations and generations.

• 53:21Tucker Carlson?

  Cause and effect is real?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it turns out.

• 53:23Tucker Carlson?

  In 2002, a letter emerged written by Osama bin Laden, who of course was then still alive, that he had written right after 9/11 in Kandahar, before he fled to Tora Bora. And it came out a year later in the Wall Street Journal. And I worked at CNN at the time and I read it on the air to answer that question. What is this about? Why did he do this? And the letter, which briefly became famous before it was pulled off the internet, said, you know, I'm mad that you have troops in Saudi, where Mecca and Medina are. And I'm mad about your support for Israel. And that's why I did this. I wasn't trying to justify nine eleven. It can't be justified, in my opinion.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:59Tucker Carlson?

  But I think it's important to know why things happen because you don't want them to happen again. Well, a group of rabbis got together and called me an anti Semite, which I wasn't then and I'm not now, and tried to get me fired from my job. I'll never forget that. And CNN called me, the corporate, the lawyer called me, you know, they're all mad at you. And I'm like, I wasn't attacking anybody, of course.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:24Tucker Carlson?

  I just think it's more than Americans don't know. I think they've been prevented from knowing.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 54:31Tucker Carlson?

  That, you know, actions have reactions.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Well, that's why, you know, the, the term blowback that was coined by the CIA and what they described it as was it's, it's not just like we do a thing and then there's a reaction to it. It's that we do a covert thing and then there's a reaction to it. And then the American people have no idea what this is even in response to. It's just like, whoa, out of nowhere, these guys attacked us. And, you know, when that.

• 54:59Tucker Carlson?

  But we're going to need a police state to protect ourselves from the blowback of this war.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's a real concern.

• 55:05Tucker Carlson?

  That's the problem.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a real concern.

• 55:07Tucker Carlson?

  We're so vulnerable. I mean, this country's wide open.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  And.

• 55:10Tucker Carlson?

  All of our infrastructure, our energy infrastructure, our food, our water, all of it's unguarded. And the only way to protect ourselves from the inevitable blowback, the Shia terrorism that we're gonna get, of course, after killing the Ayatollah, is gonna be to turn this into a surveillance state even more than it is.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and of course, also on top of that, coming off of the Biden years where we don't even know who's, who's here. We have no, like, I mean, it's just the, the mix of these policies, the mix of the, of having forever wars and open borders is just gotta be the, the.

• 55:46Tucker Carlson?

  And a welfare state.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I mean, like, just throw everything in. And a drug war on top of that, too. And a drug war so that drugs are illegal. There's a black market. The, the gangs want to smuggle the drugs and like, every single policy on top of it just makes this situation like so much worse. But yeah, you know, when that, when Osama bin Laden. 's letter to America went viral on TikTok before it was.

• 56:08Tucker Carlson?

  Many, many, many years later. For my aborted attempt to bring it to the country.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Yes, to be clear, this is written in 2002. It was like a couple of years ago when it went super viral on TikTok. And all the young leftists were like sharing it and they were going like, oh my God, look at this. Turns out now, of course, they're leftist. So. It always, they always think too collectively, right? And so I saw a bunch of people going, turns out he was right. Or he was the good guy. And you're like, no, no, no, that is not the takeaway from this. Like, you know, there was that, uh, that, that one time. The guy, uh, Hassan Piker, who's like a left, uh, lefty, like a, a streamer. And he had said that America deserved nine 11 and that was like what got him in a lot of trouble for it. And it's like. But no, stop speaking like a leftist. We're not, uh, we're not collectively, we're individuals.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  And the individuals who had nothing to do with these policies did not have it coming.

• 57:00Tucker Carlson?

  Having breakfast at windows on the world and get killed. How do you deserve it?

• 57:03Speaker 02

  No, you don't do the whole part. Now, but what Osama bin Laden said, I don't think this was in the letter to America. I think it was in, it might've been. It was either that or in his declaration of war. He had two declarations of war against America also. But what he said is that civilians are fair game because you vote for, you know, you vote the Bill Clintons and the George Bushes in. Who slaughter all of our children and so you're fair game. Now that's the logic of Osama bin Laden. The psychopathic, uh, you know, terrorist. And that's, and the whole point of why we're against all this shit is because we reject that. We don't agree with that. That's not, and you know who else used that same logic? Every goddamn Zionist who said they elected Hamas in Gaza.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Oh, by the way, they don't even have regular elections in Gaza. They had one election 20 years ago where Hamas won with pluralities. But that was enough for them to say.

• 57:55Tucker Carlson?

  To kill their kids in good conscience.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  And so, so no, the whole point is that, no, it does, you don't have the right to take vengeance on innocent people. That is the standard of civilization.

• 58:07Tucker Carlson?

  I have said that, you know, pretty consistently for the past couple of years and. I thought that was like just a baseline understanding that everyone in America knew and believed. I thought that was the whole point of America. That's what civilization is. You can't punish the innocent.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:21Tucker Carlson?

  And that turns out to be incredibly antisemitic.

• 58:26Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't know that. By the way, I've never, up until recently, all the Jews I knew were 100% on board with that. I mean, I can just like hear a rabbi going, "You can't kill the innocent." Amen, brother.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Except in this one.

• 58:41Tucker Carlson?

  But now, it's like, all of a sudden, these, you know, I don't know. I don't think it's about any specific group. In fact, by definition, it's not. It's a human standard, to which we should all be held and do our best to hold others. You can't kill the innocent.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also, it's not, you know, it's not about one specific group, because...

• 58:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, by definition, it's not about one specific group. It's about all humans.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  It's also just not, you know, and this is the problem where, when, when people try to make it about the Jews, and it's so weird, the dynamic, because you, I watch you, you literally bend over backward to say that it's not about the Jews as much as possible.

• 59:17Tucker Carlson?

  Because it's not.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  To the point, and as, as someone who's like a Jewish fan of yours, I find myself going like, "You could stop making that, but you've said it enough." You know what I mean? But you do every opportunity, you go, "I don't believe in blood guilt."

• 59:28Tucker Carlson?

  It's not because I'm afraid of Jews at all. Or anybody, I'm not afraid of anybody. It's because I think it's the standard that we have to uphold.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  Well, also, everyone is insisting that that's what you're really saying. And so you want to go, "No, I'm not saying that."

• 59:41Tucker Carlson?

  I just, that's why I've been defending Muslims. It's not because I'm Muslim or taking money from Qatar. Too late now, we wrecked their economy. But it's because I think these are human rights bestowed by God, and they apply to every person, because they're inherent in every person, because every person's created in the image of God. That's the point I'm trying to make.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I completely agree with you. I also think it's just frankly inaccurate. I mean, it's not, look, I know, I saw one poll today that said 60% of American Jews support the war in Iran, which, hey, that's a lot higher than the, the general population, but that means 40% of them don't. You know what I mean? And so like, that's a huge, huge percentage of them. I think a third of Jews in New York voted for this Mom Donnie guy. Now, I'm annoyed with them for other reasons, because he's a crazy socialist, but they're clearly not on board with the Israel lobby's plan here. And then, of course, as you've done a better... Job of exposing than anyone I've ever seen. There is a lot of like Ted Cruzes and Mike Huckabee's out there. Who, as you, I think correctly pointed out, are different animals, right?

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Like Ted Cruz is a cynical, lying politician. Mike Huckabee is like a true believer of sorts. I'm not sure which is worse. They're both

• 1:00:52Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Pretty rough and both totally humiliated themselves when they, when you interviewed them. But there's also like, the point is that the Israel lobby encompasses a lot of non-Jews. And then there's a lot of Jews, there's, there's the Max Blumenthal's and Norman Finkelsteins and Glenn Greenwald's and all. So it's just, to just say it's like this group, nah, you're missing the point entirely.

• 1:01:17Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I would say that the advocates for the war are primarily responsible for that. And speaking of blowback, speaking of blowback, I mean, it's hardly my job to like defend Jewish Americans, but I want to defend all Americans. And I definitely want to defend the principle that we should be judged on our own terms, not by people who look like us or we're related to. Like, I think that's the most important thing. But, I mean, I do think you offer your anti-Semitism is on the rise. I, I agree with that.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Tucker Carlson?

  And I, and I wish it wasn't true, but that is absolutely real. And I know that I'm blamed for it. Okay. But I'm

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  I think, I think you're, I think you're one of the

• 1:01:57Tucker Carlson?

  I'm really

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  I know people will, people will mock me for saying this, but I genuinely think it's true. I think you are one of the leading fighters against anti-Semitism in the country.

• 1:02:07Tucker Carlson?

  I think so.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  And I think, I think I do what I can to, to be that as well. I think if you really want to see a, a decrease in Jew hatred, then I think maybe it would be good to have Jewish people saying, hey, I am totally against this. I am not for this, but also it is, and I'm not defending collectivism of any stripe, but it is very predictable and it is just human nature. You know, if you have

• 1:02:33Tucker Carlson?

  It's, that's why it's so scary.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:35Tucker Carlson?

  It is human nature. That's exactly right.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  If you, if there, let's say you just have a neighborhood, okay? There's like a neighborhood, all things being equal or whatever, and a bunch of black teenagers, uh, black young men are going around and mugging and beating up people.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Do you think anti-black racism is going to go up, go down, or stay the same? Crime causes racism. This is right. I've said that for years. Now, shut up. Yeah, but now, is it fair to the black guy who didn't mug or beat up anyone that there's any, no, it's not fair to him. It's also a predictable and frankly, at times, an understandable response I get it. From someone who was a victim of getting mugged and beat up. And so if you're, you know, if you're a black person who's like in the public eye, it might be reasonable at that point to go, hey, guys, we gotta stop mugging people and beating them up. Otherwise, they're gonna hate us. And the way I always looked at it, this, this always just came very natural to me. Like, this was so obvious.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm Jewish. I love Jewish people. I love Jewish culture. It's, it's who I am. It's a big part of me. And I think some of the best things about me I got from Jewish culture, valuing intellectual curiosity and family and hard work and a lot of humor and a lot of things that really define who I am are very much a part of Jewish culture. Total refusal to go along with whatever else is saying. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Also, just whining about things, complaining, fetching, you know, this is all part of me. It's what I do for a living. It turned it into a pretty nice career. But, but that being said, it's like, I just look at it, I go, okay, so we're, all the stories I've heard from my family and our history are how we were brutally oppressed

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  here and killed here and kicked out of here and relocated here and then we came to America. Now, I have grown up in the United States of America. This is where my kids live. It's where they are gonna grow up. As you say all the time, that's the only thing that matters to me, is that my kids have the best life I can give them. Literally the only thing that matters to me. Everything is a very distant second from that. And I go, okay, so I'm, we're 2% of the population in America. We are, by all objective standards, thriving. We're doing great. Jews are not an oppressed minority in America. We're doing better than the average American is, is doing substantially. And I've never once, um...

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know. I've had like people on Twitter say things to me or something like that, but there's never once been an obstacle put in my way because I was Jewish. I never couldn't go to this school or couldn't get this job or couldn't do anything like that. And I've had a really great life here. In fact, probably the most like antisemitism I've ever dealt with is from the pro-Israel people who call me like a capo every day because I don't support another reckless war. Um, so

• 1:05:32Tucker Carlson?

  Capos with the Jewish

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  Jewish collaborators with the Nazis.

• 1:05:35Tucker Carlson?

  In the ghettos.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, right. So, um, it was a really nasty thing to call somebody, but whatever. That's the game we're in. So, so my perspective was like, okay, so you're telling me the whole world treated us like crap. We've come here to America where we've been just very successful and treated very well. My default position is to love the country for that. Like, oh, well, then we should be really grateful to this country. That should be the attitude, not going around lecturing people about whether they've been to the museum about our suffering from decades ago. Like, what is that? It just seems like such a, and, and look, again, I'm not, a lot of the critics of Israel are left-wingers. I'm not coming at this from a left-wing perspective. I'm a crotchety old right-winger. Like, I

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  don't agree with any of that. I'm sitting here and saying, if we, if any self-respecting conservative or self-respecting right-winger saw any other minority group complaining about their mistreatment in another continent, in another country, in another century, you'd go, hey, shut up. Get over it. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That's like what I'm saying. And then, by the way, with Jews, like, oh, you already did. You pulled yourself up by your bootstraps. So like, what are we even talking about here? Why, and, and I don't think, I, I don't think like obsessing over past trauma is always the correct answer and certainly not insisting that everybody else suffer over or, or obsess over your

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  past trauma. So I just always, it was always very natural to me that like, I'm on Team America. I'm rooting for this country to succeed.

• 1:07:12Tucker Carlson?

  The country that Fought the Nazis.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Tucker Carlson?

  By the way.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Tucker Carlson?

  Lost a lot of Americans fighting the Nazis. Why are you lecturing me about the Nazis?

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Tucker Carlson?

  My country fought them.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  And, and to almost anybody, like anybody at Fox News. Now, again, maybe I talk about like Mark Levin and Fox News and these guys like too much. Like, they really are irrelevant, but I guess it's just that I'm stuck in the old, you know, I'm the age I am. And so to me, it's still like, hey, you're, this is Fox. But any one of them would completely agree with me on this if we were talking about any other group of people. You know, if we were talking about any other group of people, talking about victimhood or any of that. You know, if you, if they were, um, if, if there was some black, you know, uh, guy talking about how racist this country is because of slavery. They would have made your exact point. They'd go, we fought a war to end slavery. Hundreds of thousands of us died, but you know what I mean? Like they would, they would right away.

• 1:08:05Tucker Carlson?

  Even here, so back off.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, right.

• 1:08:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, I, I couldn't agree more. And, and underneath all of this, and the reason that I really do worry that the country is going to become like openly tribal. Uh, and that leads to violence every time is that the, a lot of the same people who are upset about the rise in antisemitism, which again, I think is real. I mean, I can tell it's real and I don't like it either. Are the ones who have embedded all the anti-white hate for so long, which is still not being addressed. The Trump administration sued Harvard over its anti-Jewish discrimination, which is like.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:08:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's drained.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  What a slap in the face to white people, man.

• 1:08:45Tucker Carlson?

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:46Tucker Carlson?

  And, um, and of course, the anti-white hate is still totally embedded at every level of our government and in business. And most famously in schools. So that's like an attempt to hurt people on the basis of their race. And no one has said anything about it. And my point is these are either universal principles, they apply to every human being endowed with human rights by the Creator. Or they're just preferences. It's just your tribe against mine and then I'm allowed to. Fight your tribe for the benefit of my tribe, like, and it just evolves into Rwanda. So like, I think we could diffuse a lot of this if, like, the head of the A D L would be like, I'm every bit as opposed to anti-white hate as I am to anti-Jewish hate. We could all just agree that it's all wrong, then we decelerate. But until then, how can I take you seriously?

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's, and I think along with that is, we just, we have to stop fighting wars on behalf of Israel, and we have to have some type of separation. I mean, I'm not saying that, like, I'm not saying we, we should be enemies with Israel, or that we should go to war with Israel or anything like that. But the, it just, the relationship, the special relationship between the U.S. and Israel is so freaking weird. And now, in this new media environment, it's been exposed. I don't think you can put that toothpaste back in the tube. Um, it is something that I think a lot of people were kind of happy to look the other way about for years.

• 1:10:15Tucker Carlson?

  I was, I was. You came on my show, you came to Maine a couple of years ago to do something on Ukraine, and Greenwald too, who I love and have known a long time. And both of you, like, had a moment where you're like, yeah, Israel's probably, and I'm like, ugh. I agree, but like, I don't want to, you know, there's, I just want to pretend this isn't happening. It's not worth it. I don't want to be denounced by Habbat or whatever. I just don't want to have the fight.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  Well, you let me or Glenn, Glenn Greenwald in your door, and that will not be happening.

• 1:10:41Tucker Carlson?

  I was.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Yes, I get it.

• 1:10:42Tucker Carlson?

  I was part of that, like, it's, it's just not worth it.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Well, look, even the, in my opinion, the greatest living American hero, Ron Paul, used, even he would kind of like, try to say it in a gentle way. Like, he would go, well, look, let's let them fight their own fights, and we'll just kind of be over here being non-interventionist. Because, of course, on, on one hand, it's like, there's a lot of things. First of all, in, I, I don't know if people who are listening to this show can appreciate this, but you know this much better than I do. But there was a time, you know, Donald Trump will kind of say this out loud. He'll say that, you know, AIPAC used to totally control Congress, and now they don't control them anymore. Like, he'll just say it, which is so wild. They give me hundreds of millions of dollars, and I do whatever they want. It's like, all right, dude, you're just saying that out loud.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  I thought that was like an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. That's just something the president says.

• 1:11:34Tucker Carlson?

  He said it in the kinesis of all places.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. But, the thing is, right?

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  In the old order, before there were podcasts like this, and look, if you think about like, I used to always point to the example because I thought it was so interesting about where the technology, where social media was, is when Bill O'Reilly was the number one show at Fox News, the number one show in cable news, and at the 8 p.m. hour, you were also the number one show at Fox News, the number one show in cable news at the 8 p.m. hour. When they fired Bill O'Reilly, Bill O'Reilly went from being like, one of the biggest voices in the national conversation, to being like relegated over to the sidelines, who's like, you know, he still has a show somewhere, but he's not like really moving the needle at all. You got bigger than you were there. And, and part of that was who you were, who your audience was. But a big part, a big part of it was that you had, you had another platform to go right to.

• 1:12:25Tucker Carlson?

  I would, I would be fly fishing full time if it weren't for the technology.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  So maybe, in that sense, maybe the technology ruined your life. You could have just gone and had a happy life. They pulled you back in. But I don't know that people appreciate how much in the old order, in the old days when Bill, getting fired, took you out of the conversation with Bill O'Reilly days, or whatever, before that, getting the Israel lobby on your back would ruin you. It would absolutely ruin you. And it didn't matter who you were.

• 1:12:52Tucker Carlson?

  You could absolutely sleep with the makeup artist. You could not fight with the ADL.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  That's right. I mean, that was just it. That was just it. I mean, and there's so much, you know, I mean, whether it's the ADL, or the Southern Poverty Law Center, or AIPAC, or, you know, whatever, the American Enterprise Institute, or National Review, or the, I mean, the Israel lobby is like this huge, powerful thing. And back then, I mean, it didn't matter. If you were Pat Buchanan, you're like, dude, I'm Pat Buchanan. I've been in four White Houses.

• 1:13:20Tucker Carlson?

  I won the New Hampshire primary.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  I won the New Hampshire primary. I've been in four different presidential, three or four different presidential administrations, a New York Times bestseller, a fixture in America. I mean, he hosted Crossfire when Crossfire first started, you know. Doesn't matter. They could take you out. They could take Ron Paul. They could take all it. And so there was for many years, almost, I feel like a leftover residue of like, you just don't want this fight because man, is this going to get ugly and you're going to be smeared as every vicious name in the book. But at a certain point, it was like, oh, well, you know, you kind of can talk about these things now. And in fact, the people who do talk about them are being rewarded by their viewers because it's refreshing that someone's talking about the thing you weren't allowed to talk about. But now that that has been

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  exposed and the toothpaste can't be put back in the tube, it's too, it's just too much. You cannot have, and I know you talk about this a lot. You look at examples like, and these examples are countless. You look at Ted Cruz saying to your face, as he said at other places, that the reason he ran for Senate was to be Israel's number one defender. You got Tammy Bruce saying, America's the second best country to Israel. Kind of tongue in cheek, still a really weird thing for an official from the administration to say. You got Donald Trump saying that Sheldon and now Miriam Adelson, give him hundreds of millions of dollars and all they want, they come in every day asking for stuff on

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  behalf of a foreign country and he gives it to them. Which they love more than America. Yes. Well, Sheldon was on tape. Have you seen this? Yes. He was on tape. He said his greatest regret in life is that he wore the US military uniform rather than the IDF uniform. Now, I'm sorry, that is intolerable from any just sane perspective. This has nothing to do with hating Jews or even hating any other country. If people were talking like this about Norway, we'd be like, yo, what are you doing? This isn't Norway. This is America. I agree. And like, there's Move to Norway. Yeah, like, fine, go ahead. But no, you can't. And then to have, you know, people

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  like Mike Huckabee saying that God promised Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to Netanyahu. Like, I'm sorry, but there's just no, this is simply not how public

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Policemaker, I guess not a policymaker, but a politician, an ambassador to this country? You can't be talking this way. This is insane. Like, we don't let anybody just dictate their policy off, "God told me to do this," and then a very weird, "God told me something on behalf of a foreign country." So I think we're at a point where if, and this is kind of my rejoinder to a lot of those, you know, people who call me and you anti-Semi. I guess I'm a self-hating Jew and you're an anti-Semi. Because, listen, man, there is a rise of Jew hatred. And if you really do care about that, the only way to combat that is that we gotta end this. You know, like, the same way we needed a separation of church and state so we don't

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  fight religious wars anymore, we need a separation of the Israel lobby and the United States of America.

• 1:16:32Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's, I think it's tough. I think it's tough. As a non-Israel hater, I don't hate anyone. I'm not gonna allow myself to hate anyone, period. But I'm just, being as honest as I can be, you know, we're very enmeshed, like, more than people understand. Representatives, official and non-official, of the Israeli government, throughout the US government, at every single level, state and federal, okay, there's that. In our institutions, that would include the Pentagon and CIA, our biggest and most important. And then there's the question of, like, what does that mean for Israel? Like, do they just allow the United States to be like, you know, you're just like, whatever, France now, or Spain, we're gonna treat you like, you know, an ally, but not, not a sibling. I think that we get punished

• 1:17:17Tucker Carlson?

  for that. People are afraid of Israel. That's the difference between Israel and Spain. Everyone loves Spain, it's great. The Spanish, we can have bases there, you can put missiles there, it's all great. But no one thinks if you pull back aid from Spain, they're gonna hurt you. But everyone is afraid of being physically hurt by Israel. Maybe they're overstating, maybe they're all anti-Semitic and paranoid. I don't know. I can just tell you, from living in DC, there is a fear of them. Real fear. And anyone who says this, I'm sure is freaking lying.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  No, it's like saying there's a fear of the intelligence agencies. Like, that's a fact. It's a fact.

• 1:17:51Tucker Carlson?

  I think we're pretty out in the open about that now.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's right. That's right. And it's, um, you know, so if, if that's the case, that it's almost like there's, our leaders are just too afraid to do something.

• 1:18:04Tucker Carlson?

  Well, of course they're afraid. And I don't know the genesis of that fear. Like, maybe, again, maybe they're all just reading the protocols elders design and maybe they're all anti Semites and they're overstating the influence of Jews or whatever. I mean, that's totally possible. People do make crazy calculations. Maybe there really is a physical threat, but it's, it's not arguable that US policymakers at every level are afraid. This is not all voluntary at all.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's, it's, um, there's something about like the, you know, I like Megyn Kelly. I think she was the one who said this. I don't know if she coined the term, but she was the first one I heard say it, but she, I think it was with you, where she said the, uh, the Israel firsters. And that was how she described it. I was like, oh, that's a good, that's a really good term for them. Cause you know, the, the thing is that, you know, John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, like they call it the Israel lobby. But then when you say that, a lot of people just think you're talking about AIPAC. But they're not just talking about AIPAC. They're talking about this whole different, all these different organizations and individuals.

• 1:19:04Tucker Carlson?

  Heritage Foundation and Washington Post and know everybody.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  Washington Institute for Near East Policy and the, you know, all of these, these organizations and then all these individuals who clearly are here to, that is their number one issue. And it, the thing I almost resent most about them is like, it's like, just admit that. Just admit that this is what you care about more than anything else. Barry Weiss, clearly you do, right? Like this is so.

• 1:19:26Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Because then in effect, you are like a foreign spy. You're, you're kind of like an agent for a different government. And the point is that, you know, cause people will try to argue the technicalities of this, but the point is that all of the whole global war on terrorism was all a bunch of Israel firsters who pushed the administration into that at every level. You know, this is, by the way, you'll, you'll like this just cause some people don't get this, but you'll, so David Wormsor. Who, you know, worked for Dick Cheney and was, he's the author of the clean break memo. So he, so I talk about this all the time, a lot of different podcasts on yours, on Rogan's. I brought up the clean break and how that's what this whole real strategy is. It's what the clean break morphed into is essentially, and you could look at this,

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  David Wormser and Richard Pearl and Douglas Fife wrote the clean break memo to Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996 was first became prime minister for his first term. And he had written a book, which is worth reading called Fighting Terrorism. Very easy read, by the way, it's a little book that Benjamin Netanyahu had written the year before. And essentially the break was from Oslo, was from the peace process. The break was from Yitzhak Rabin, who had now been murdered by a Benjamin Netanyahu fan. After Benjamin Netanyahu really pushed, I mean, that's a whole other can of worms, by the way. But I know like if Yitzhak Rabin's wife, I believe, still blames Benjamin Netanyahu for his death.

• 1:20:44Tucker Carlson?

  Many in Israel do.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Tucker Carlson?

  And now there's a lobbying campaign to get the murderer out of prison.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Well, they, so I mean, they were, he was given anti Rabin like marches and they were holding coffins before he died, like they were like implying like someone should kill this guy. Because he had said, not that he was really ever going to do this, but he had said, we got to find a two-state solution. We got to give the Palestinians their own state and we'll start working toward that. Now, the clean break was the neoconservatives brilliant idea. The Israel firsters here that, well, no, no, no, see, you got this all wrong. You think you need to make peace with the Palestinians because that's the only way that you'll have, you'll normalize relations with the broader Arab world. But no, no, no, no, we just got to go topple the broader Arab world and overthrow all those governments. And then you never have to make peace with the Palestinians. Okay. So it's essentially a blueprint for greater Israel. And this was their whole strategy, pre nine 11.

• 1:21:34Tucker Carlson?

  And for regional hegemony.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:21:36Tucker Carlson?

  It's not just about controlling the West Bank. It's about controlling the Middle East.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. And so now, because we live in this crazy world we live in now, David Wormser did a podcast where he responded to me. Now, Dave, now, from my perspective, I'm little old me, some stand-up comedian who just talks about all this stuff. This is David Worms. This is the guy who's the author of The Clean Break Memo. But to the new internet world, he has like 300 followers on Twitter. Nobody saw this. Nobody knows about it. But so David Worms, and he's there to debunk my interpretation of The Clean Break Memo. This is the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. And so the host brings him on to be like, oh, this Dave Smith guy's out here saying that all these wars were about Israel and blah, blah, blah. And this

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  is ridiculous, right? So why don't you just tell them that this is all not true? And his response was he just goes into like a monologue about how Israel is the cradle of civilization, and that all of Western civilization is downstream from Israel, and that we always must protect. So anyway, in the attempt to prove me wrong, he just totally exposes that like, yeah, this is the mentality that all of these guys have. So when, if Mike Huckabee supports a war for Israel, in his mind, that's not, that's not selling out your country for another country. This is God's plan. You know what I mean? Like this. So they're all so, it's like, like the fish doesn't know he's in water. Like,

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  they don't even realize they're the Israel lobby. They go, what are you talking about?

• 1:23:09Tucker Carlson?

  So this is what, what Jeff Sachs said to me. Jeff Sachs, who's often attacked, Jeff Sachs is really smart. And I think

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Very smart.

• 1:23:16Tucker Carlson?

  is a decent guy. And we don't agree on everything, but like, he's a, he's an honest guy. Like, he just says, so I say to him, you've been watching this all these years. What do you think this is about? Why does this tiny country have so much control over our giant continent-sized country? And he said, well, you know, a lot of contributions. There are threats or questions with the Kennedy assassination, like that they're willing to use force in assassinations to get what they want. He goes, but I don't think that, I don't think that explains it. I don't think either one of those bribery or threats, a carrot or stick, I don't think that actually is the whole picture. There's a spell of some kind. There's like a supernatural quality to this. Good people, like, I don't think Mike Huckabee is like in favor of genocide. I just don't think that. Pretty nice guy, very nice guy, actually. But he believes with this fervor that suggests that he's

• 1:24:00Tucker Carlson?

  not thinking clearly. Like, there's, there's another quality here. And do you, do you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, 100%.

• 1:24:07Tucker Carlson?

  And I think Jeff Sacks is a pretty secular guy, by the way. I don't know, but I don't, Jeff's, Jeff's not a religious extremist, that I can say that.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:24:13Tucker Carlson?

  Right, okay.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they, but everyone recognizes, like I told you last, there's no such thing as atheist. They, they think they are atheists, but no one, no one really is.

• 1:24:21Tucker Carlson?

  But you were an atheist.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  No, but I wasn't, but I thought I was. But you never really are. It's not like you can't.

• 1:24:26Tucker Carlson?

  Why did you think you were?

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  Well, because I would just say, I don't really believe in any of that, and I don't think that that's real. But of course, like, as I told you the story last time I was here, then, when my daughter is born and I'm worried about her life, I immediately find, and it's like, I always knew. I, that was always in there on some level. So, I remember one time, hearing this debate, and I wish I could remember who it was, but it was like a theist atheist debate. And, um, it might have been at Christopher Hitchens or something like, oh, maybe not. But it was one of those, like, does God exist debates? And so, the, the guy arguing that God does exist, said something about how there are spiritual forces in the world and blah, blah, blah, and there are, or there are evil spirits, he said. There are evil spirits. And then, the atheist guy goes, uh, he goes, look, like, we all know that

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  there is depression, and there's this, and there's this. We all know that there's dark forces in the world, but you don't need a supernatural explanation. I'm like, did you just say dark forces? What, like, dark forces? I mean, what is, you're saying the same thing in a different language, man. Like, it's just like, there's actually no gap here between, anyway. Um, but so, yeah, I do think there's a spiritual component to all of this, for sure.

• 1:25:33Tucker Carlson?

  It feels that way, because I don't want to be the kind of person who imputes the worst motives to my opponents, okay? But I am, because most people are, like, why is this person doing something that's insane, doesn't make sense, it's irrational, getting paid? Like, that's always the first explanation that people come to, and I have myself thought that. But then, if you know someone really well, I don't, I'm not intimate with Huckabee, but I've known him for so many, you know, 30 years, more than. It's like, I don't think Huckabee, you know, he's into money, I get it, but I don't think he's like...

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Totally motivated by greed. I just don't believe that. No, I think there's, well, look, I think. And I don't think he's evil, but he's defending evil. So what is that? I think a few things can be true at the same time, right? So it could, it can be that you're under a spell, that there's a spiritual aspect to it. And then it can also be that there's soft incentives for you to continue being under that spell. Right? And so the, you know, the history of, of Jewish influence, Israeli influence. I mean, look, obviously, much of this goes back to the fact that Jews dominated finance for many years. And part of this was because Christians weren't allowed to lend money. Usury was.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Credit, right? But there is now, there is a form, obviously, of like abusive usury, right? There are loan sharks out there. There are, some of them are even credit card companies that will charge you like 30% interest or 29.9, whatever they're allowed to do on, you know, which is like kind of a crazy interest rate. And they, they kind of prey on desperate people. Now, they're not necessarily, like even the loan shark or the credit card companies, they're just kind of benefiting off your desperation because it's not like if the credit card company wasn't there, it's not like, oh, now everything's okay. The American, the reason they're putting necessities on the credit card to begin with is because other conditions have, you know, led them to this desperate place. Totally. But, but the problem, so then you had for much of Christendom, right?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  It's completely banned to lend money at any interest, which is that, you know, I do not think is abusive to have any interest rate on your money because that's actually a very necessary part of an economy. There are, there are people who have a very good idea, but don't have any capital. And then there's people sitting with capital and they go, well, look, I can't just give this to you because if you lose it, then I just lose my money. And if you pay me back, all I've gotten is that I get my money later rather than having it right now. If you have my money, then I can't use it. Right, right. For whatever thing I want to build. So there's a cost to me to lending you my money. However, if I go, hey, I'll lend this to you, but you pay me back a little bit of interest, this is, this actually is really facilitates economic growth because, you know, or just good businesses being created because like, oh yeah, the guy with a good

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  idea, but with no capital now could, so anyway, so. So Jewish bankers ended up kind of filling this void. And then you had very powerful Jewish groups who became very, very wealthy in banking and yada, yada, a lot of things later banking got very, very corrupt. But again, it's important to keep in mind, this wasn't most Jews. Most Jews were living in poverty. This was, but like, the Balfour Declaration is written to the Rothschilds, right? Like, it's not, the creation of Israel was at least part, they had international finance backing them. And so that's also true in America, that much of the, the largest banking institutions had some Jewish influence. It's also the case that after the creation of the state of Israel, there, you have the Mossad, right?

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Or you have Israeli intelligence. And, no, Jews are smart, not like that much smarter than everybody else, but they're a pretty smart group. And then the Mossad had an advantage over every other intelligence organization that would really be a dream for any intelligence organization. But the Mossad had a diaspora of people all spread out in the world that were Jewish, right? And so, and also, there was this wide cultural belief amongst Jews that the Holocaust is what gave birth to the state of Israel and that the state of Israel is the guarantor of another Holocaust not happening. And so you could very, like, imagine the CIA had that. Imagine you just had little Americans in every single country, you know, little groups

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  of Americans, maybe not every single country, but you had pockets of them in lots of different places, and they really passionately believed that the existence of the United States of America was the most important thing in the world. What an advantage for them. Go around, hey, find any American somewhere, you want to serve your country, you want to do that? And so, I think, between finance, between the Mossad, and then, the, when the neoconservatives, who really were not Old money when they first came into it, right?

• 1:30:16Tucker Carlson?

  Not at all.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  Like if you know the first generation of neoconservatives, they were, they were having their debates at City College, not at Harvard, you know what I mean?

• 1:30:23Tucker Carlson?

  Literally City College.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yes, these were, these were, uh, middle-class guys.

• 1:30:27Tucker Carlson?

  Working class, yeah.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  They weren't, they weren't the Rockefeller guys or the Morgan guys. They weren't at the Council on Foreign Relations, but what they did was they went and they made their relationships with the military industrial complex themselves. And a lot of this was, you know, the problem is that you create this empire, you create this military industrial complex, this big government scheme, and then it's ripe for someone to take it over. And if you go look at like every last one of those Bill Kristol think tanks, where Bill Kristol needs to have 16 think tanks, he doesn't have a thought in his head, but he's got all of it, literally, never.

• 1:31:02Tucker Carlson?

  Couldn't even write a New York Times column.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, like his dad was smart for all his problems, but Bill Kristol was never smart. He was revered as the smart guy, never, never said anything smart.

• 1:31:10Tucker Carlson?

  Dan Quayle's brain.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, literally. Um, but every last one of those think tanks is funded by Lockheed Martin or, you know, Raytheon or whatever. So it's like, the thing is that a lot of times in government, there's, it's, it's a very different thing to be like swim with the current than to swim against the current. You know, there's no such thing as a Fabian libertarian. You don't, you know, you have, you might have some hardcore communists and then you have like an AOC who's like, I want incrementally more government. You can't get incrementally less government because there's no, that's asking the government to have less power.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Now, if you're the neoconservatives and you come around with like, hey, I've got a plan to fight forever wars. You know, I've got a plan to go topple all of these different countries, you're going to get some money from weapons companies. And so, anyway, just saying, aside from the spiritual.

• 1:32:05Tucker Carlson?

  Fascism, I thought that's what fascism, I mean, leaving aside the anti-Semitic component, um, of the Nazis, which was a big component, but the idea of fascism that the state. You know, merges with the industrial powers.

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is what it is. And also just swap out the Jew hatred and make it Muslim hatred, or make it German hatred, or Russian hatred, or whatever it is. You know, they always pick another thing to some ethnic hatred. So, yeah, it's not, but that's exactly right. Fascism won. Man, it's so, it's so ironic, the same when, sometimes when you win, you really lose. You know, you could, they could say on paper, and I'm sure there's some historian professor who would say, no, like capitalism and communism won the Second World War, and fascism was defeated. Except what arose out of it was the fascist model for everybody, essentially, right? Which is, and again, it's fascism is kind of ill-defined, but.

• 1:32:58Tucker Carlson?

  Kind of ill-defined.

• 1:32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, but broadly speaking, I mean, what are we talking about? The FDR and the entire progressive movement, the original progressive movement, this is what they were advocating for, right? It's like, it's, we gotta get away from laissez-faire free markets. We're not going total communist, but we need a strong, powerful state, powerful enough to regulate the economy and the country, and then also fight wars abroad. I mean.

• 1:33:26Tucker Carlson?

  Without majority support.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just don't really see what, and we can cling to this idea of democracy, which is always really an illusion, you know, it's never really true. It doesn't really, in fact, there was a study done, I want to say this was at Princeton, if I'm remembering correctly, this was like 15, 20 years ago, but they did a study where they said, they just concluded that we're an oligarchy, not a democracy, and they literally just went through it empirically and were like, the American people's feeling has no impact on.

• 1:33:56Tucker Carlson?

  No bearing whatsoever.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  You could say we have elections, and if you really don't like George W. Bush, you can vote for Barack Obama instead of John McCain, but what'd you vote for him for? Because he said he'd close Guantanamo Bay and end the wars.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  Guantanamo Bay is still open today and we're on the seventh war of Wesley Clark's seven wars in five countries. None of that stopped. What did we get during Obama? We got a massive escalation in Afghanistan. We got wars in Libya, in Syria, in Yemen. Drone bombing campaigns in Pakistan, continued the war in Iraq, ended the war in Iraq, then reinvaded Iraq when his, when his pet ISIS left over from the war in Syria.

• 1:34:36Tucker Carlson?

  So I think you're describing the upside of all of this. Again, I haven't, I haven't slept eight hours in a month. I'm so distressed. I'm in no sense for this. I argued against it, obviously. But it's happening and this is the end of the empire as we knew it. Hopefully it'll, you know, shrink back into something manageable that serves our interests. But who knows what will happen. But we're definitely not going back to where we were a month ago. We know that. So what are the upsides? Well, one upside is you might wind up at some point with presidents who want to run the United States. No president wants to run the United States because why would you want to run the US when you can run the world?

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Tucker Carlson?

  By the way, you don't know the people you manage when you run the world. They don't like come to your office and complain about your treatment of them. It's like there's no cost. It's all upside. You're just, you're the king of the world. I don't think future presidents will have that option. And so maybe we'll get people like, you know, LaGuardia Airport smells. The Miami Airport is like an atrocity. Maybe we should fix that. Don't you think?

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, well.

• 1:35:36Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe this will cause like a reorientation back to what matters, which is our country.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, quite possibly. And, and that's the, yeah, that's really the best case scenario. And, you know, like, I try to, well, I look at.

• 1:35:48Tucker Carlson?

  No, you're right.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Models like, you know, when the Soviet Union collapsed, right? There's, I remember there was a, so Murray Rothbard talked about this in a speech once. Murray Rothbard, for people who don't know, is in my opinion, like, the most brilliant political theorist of the 20th century. He's a genius. And he was, you know, of course, he ended up supporting Pat Buchanan in 1992.

• 1:36:11Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I remember.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  He was an economist and historian and a philosopher. And so he was talking about, I guess this was like the speech he gave shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And he was talking about how. He had seen like a, a, a video of a Chinese family under Chinese communism at the time. I guess maybe this was back, he was talking about from like before Mao Zedong died. And he said that, uh, the, you know, the interviewer asked him questions. They were just talking about how much they loved the regime and how, he said, would you rather your kids had a, um, it was something like, would you rather your kids had a prosperous life or were loyal servants of the regime and had a very difficult life? And he says, loyal servants of the regime and a very difficult life, no problem. And so Murray Rothbard

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  said, he watched this and he was like, my God, I mean, this is just so horrible. Like they've actually done it. They've created the communist man and destroyed the human soul. And then he's talking to his buddy who's another genius who went to China a lot and was like a China expert. And he goes, no, that's what they say when the cameras are there. That's all that is. It's like, that isn't believe that. You know what I mean? They just know this is on tape. You can't say anything else. And so that's what you say. And then they go about their day, not really caring what the regime says. And so like when the Soviet Union collapsed, um, from all like I've read about it, like that was essentially the state of the Soviet Union was like, no one believed the government anymore. They just all knew they were liars. They all knew this was bullshit. And they were really actually-

• 1:37:35Tucker Carlson?

  We're in the Brezhnev era here.

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  That, right. And so now, of course, the, the war hawks and the neoconservatives, they always viewed, uh, us luring the Soviets into Afghanistan and getting them bogged down there fighting the, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, including the foreign Arab Mujahideen and Osama bin Laden, who we were supporting. But they always viewed this as a great success because it brought down the Soviet Union. And I'm, I'm, I don't know enough about what factor led to what, I mean, communism is not an effective economic system. And, but I'm sure the war did hurt them a lot. I know how costly wars can be and how much they can degrade our country. I know wars in Afghanistan can degrade your country. So I'm sure that was part of it. But my point is that it wasn't like America

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  went in and toppled the USSR, right? Like they collapsed on their own, partly as a result of fighting foreign wars and partly as a result of, you know, just government lying and terrible economic policies. But at a certain point-

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  Like the soldiers just weren't willing to fire. You know, like there, there were attempted, uh, um.

• 1:38:39Tucker Carlson?

  Counter coups, yeah.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Yes, there, there were attempted coups in the past where they did fire and they were like, no, you're not leaving the Soviet Union. But by this point in 89 or whatever it was, as the people started rising up, they were like, we're just not, we're not doing this anymore. They themselves don't believe it anymore. The government and, and so I guess it's a long way to get to what I'm saying, but like at a certain point, we might just, we might hit a point where like the people just aren't believing this anymore. The law enforcement, whether military or police, just aren't going to crack down on the American people in that way. And that would maybe lead to a rise of a real president who actually ran the country. And I don't know, I think if I'm not mistaken, I believe in, um, when there was like German

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  reunification, they didn't, from what I understand, I don't think, they didn't really punish like the people in the communist government. They kept them on their pensions.

• 1:39:31Tucker Carlson?

  Absolutely.

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  They went kind of, and I feel like we almost need something like that. I know Curtis Yarvin's talked about this a bit, but something where it's like, look, man, I think there are some people at the absolute top who need to be criminally prosecuted. But like, we got to find a transition from here to there. Like if we're, if we're buying off bureaucrats, that would be cheaper than continuing this system. You know what I mean? Like there's almost something where if a president could come up and say like, hey, all you guys working in the intelligence agencies who were working to undermine presidents, you all have amnesty, but you got to pack up and go home right now. Like that's it. In, in a weird way, we need, as you said, we need an actual president who's actually running the country.

• 1:40:12Tucker Carlson?

  And who can restore peace here? I mean, I think older Americans believe their country is more united and cohesive than it really is. You've got an entire generation of people who weren't born here, whose parents weren't born here, who came here on the promise that can't be fulfilled, which is that, you know, of. A better life economically, and I think it's going to be tough to make good on that promise, honestly. And so what do you do with that? What do you do with dashed expectations at scale? Millions of people who kind of thought they were getting something and didn't get it.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:45Tucker Carlson?

  A country where half of all households get a government check. Half of all households. So.

• 1:40:50Speaker 02

  And the average age of the first time homeowner, uh, the first time homeowner is forty.

• 1:40:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Exactly. So you've got a lot of issues here and all of our attention is there. It's in the Persian Gulf or China or Venezuela, wherever. But once you readjust and start thinking about how does this country deal with dashed expectations and remain coherent? How does it prevent the rise of like a, like a truly dangerous demagogue?

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, also it's not like the two, it's not just that we're focused over there and so we're not taking care of what's going on here. It's the focus over there is destroying over here.

• 1:41:26Tucker Carlson?

  A hundred percent. And so always does.

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  Okay. So the angriest I've ever been at you was when you said that, uh, you said Lindsey Graham's views are, uh, war everywhere and Austrian economics at home. And I was like, no.

• 1:41:39Tucker Carlson?

  No, you're right. You're right.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  Austrian economics. No, but look, I mean, cause and, and it's not just, I don't care about just like the term, but it's, it's the, the idea is that essentially what's going on.

• 1:41:49Tucker Carlson?

  Monopoly capitalism.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. But the opposite of Austrian economics.

• 1:41:53Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  Big government, central banking, record, you know, record high government spending every single year. And so what happens essentially is, and this is what also why I'm so furious at this administration over, over this stuff. And, you know, I don't know, it's, you're in more of a, uh, you're, you're in a tougher position than I am where you were the guy in Trump's ear trying to convince him not to do this, or one of the guys who got to meet with him and convince him not to do this.

• 1:42:19Tucker Carlson?

  I think the only one.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Well, the last one is no longer with us. Um, so, uh, you know, there's that. And.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, but you know, so the thing is like me, I like, I'm no good at being a political strategist. Like I said, I'm just good at being a podcast.

• 1:42:37Tucker Carlson?

  Flash of rage that was so intense. I lost, I lost my vision.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  No, I understand. It all, well, it's worth it. There's some things worth being that angry over. But so, you know, I kind of go, I don't know political strategy stuff, but I go, I think you should just like, you know, try your best to stay being able to, at least he has one person who's telling them to do this. But the thing is that I'm just not capable of doing that. And I'm not close to the administration. So I'm just like red behind the eyes furious. But one of the big things I'm furious about is that they're, they're handing this country right back over to the Democrats who really are every bit the threat that we were making them out to be over the last decade. And they're going to come in more authoritarian and more angry because they are furious that we disobeyed them and put Donald Trump back in the White House. There's all time and like

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  all their plan. I mean, look, we saw what they did through COVID. We saw what they did with tech censorship. And I don't want to find out what a central bank digital currency looks like and what carbon, you know, social credit scores look like. And the thing is that what look at you watch the Democrats as they're winning now, right? Like you could look at the races when Mumdani won in New York, when the new governor won in New Jersey, the new governor in Virginia, there had been a couple of races in Texas where they were like outperforming what they should be performing in Texas. Every last one of them is running on what they now call unaffordability. It's like they just made up a new term because they, and literally none of them, I don't, I just really don't think if I had one of them sitting where you're sitting right here and I was grilling them and I could go, what

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  is unaffordability? I don't think one of them has an answer. I don't even think they know the term currency debasement. I don't even think they know that that's what it is.

• 1:44:16Tucker Carlson?

  Human rights at all.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  Oh, no, none.

• 1:44:18Tucker Carlson?

  Here in Virginia, which was conservative or normal 20 minutes ago, they bring in some guy literally born in India from another country to lead the effort to confiscate people's guns and no more self-defense in the state. This just happened. I mean, it was like, Not long, I mean, a year ago, they had a Republican governor. So it's an evenly, not much of one, but it's still, it's an evenly divided state. The second they take power, you can't defend yourself.

• 1:44:43Speaker 02

  Right. Well, but look, this is-

• 1:44:44Tucker Carlson?

  And just to humiliate you, to bring some guy from another country to lecture you about your country where your family was born, you don't have the right to have a gun?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  Yep. No, that's, it's such an outrage. I mean, it's just like unbelievable. But, look, but the thing is that-

• 1:44:57Tucker Carlson?

  It's gonna happen fast when they take over.

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  Running on unaffordability is winning for them, obviously, because that is the issue, right? Now, they don't understand that unaffordability means price inflation. It means you've debased your currency, right? And so, this is, so the thing is now, we're handing them this thing to run on while Donald Trump is talking about, you know, working with the Ayatollah about the Strait of Hormuz or whatever, your local Democrat is going, hey, why are your grocery prices so high? Why is that? By the way, all the price inflation from the Joe, but you know, the way this stuff works, it's cumulative. So Donald Trump, we live in an inflationary economy because of the central bank. It doesn't matter what they will-

• 1:45:35Tucker Carlson?

  Inflation means an inflation of the money supply.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  Right. Because they, they will, no matter what, print enough money so that we don't fall into a deflationary, you know, economy. That's, they're gonna do that. And they, they, they're just, they're not even printing the money. They're just typing into a computer these days. So they can get ahead of it. And so Donald Trump might brag that the CPI is only at 2% and not at 9% where Joe Biden was. But for every regular American, we lived through all of those price increases, and now it's just 2% more expensive than it was under Joe Biden. So you haven't been helped any. The prices aren't going down, they're just going up at a slower rate. It's like, I think it was Michael Malice who had the, the phrase where he goes, when they go, they go, we cut inflation in half, and they go, it's literally on the level of if you knew somebody who gained 100 pounds in a

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  year, and then the next year they gained 50 pounds, and they go, I'm getting thinner. And you're like, no, you are not. You are getting fatter, sir. Like, the goal is not to slow down how much weight you put on. But it really does just come down to this, right? Is that we have a government that we cannot afford. We cannot even come close to affording the size of government we have, because it's the biggest government in human history. It's the biggest organization in human history, as you often point out. And that organization is parasitical in nature. It gets its money from taking that money, from expropriating that money from the American people. But you can't tax them enough, and you can't borrow enough. And so we have to print the money. And so we have to print the money, because

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  we can't afford the size of government. And so then that makes the price of everything go up and up and up. And so essentially, the point I'm getting at, and this is why I just, I just point out that, to say it's Austrian economics gets, because the, what guys like Mumdani can come in and do now, is say, hey, look, everything's so unaffordable. And you know what the answer to that is? A government program. More government. More government. More government. More free buses and government supermarkets. And on the surface, that kind of probably sounds reasonable to some people. But the thing is that we're here because government is too big. That's what's got us to this place. And so like, I think it's important to just like, point that out to people. That it's like, no, this is the, the thing is

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  that we cannot afford, here's the real hard, honest truth that Americans don't want to hear, or at least maybe the first part they want to hear. People are okay with me saying this. We can't afford the world empire. We can't afford it. We don't have the money for it. We, the only, we're pretending we have it. We're, we're just devaluing our currency, and therefore, by the way, destroying young people's lives. Nowadays, I know a bunch of young people, like in my family and friends, who are literally like, good people. Go to work every day, make 70K a year. And they're like, how am I going to settle down and start a family, dude? No chance. I mean, like, the average house around me is going for 800 grand. You make 70 grand a year. That, that math simply does not work. And this is not, I'm not saying the bum on

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  welfare. I'm saying like, the young man who's getting up and going to work every day. And So we cannot afford this empire. And the other thing is, which no one, including Republicans, ever wants to say, we also can't afford the entitlement programs. No way. And they're insane. They're the most indefensible thing in the world. I mean, leaving aside Medicaid for a second, but Social Security and Medicare are from a different time, from a different country, that are totally indefensible. They were indefensible then, but they're really indefensible now. Or disability. Yeah. You're telling me you have a wealth transfer program from a poorer group to a richer group?

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, the seniors aren't the ones who need the help right now. That's for sure. It's the young people. And I think that I would love if some politician, I think Ron Paul's the only one I've ever seen. I'm sure Massey would would agree with me if I said this to him. But I wish somebody would just run on that. Unlike, yeah, you know, they used to say that's the third rail of politics. Like, why? Because boomers just need to get everything. Everything has to be rigged in favor of them. I mean, I'm sorry, like, the thing is, you kind of have these, like, abstract political debates sometimes, which I'm a nerd for this stuff. I really like them. But so you'd have like, you know, you'd have like a Keynesian debate a Chicago school guy,

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  or you'd have a socialist debate a free market guy. And like, the free market guy would argue that, you know, there's a better allocation of resources in a free market. And then the socialist would argue that some people fall behind. And so you need redistributive policies to take from the wealthy, to give to the people who have fallen behind. But who argues that you should have a redistributive policy from the poor to the rich? That's the whole United States of America. That's all of central banking. That's all of government spending. All it is, is they take money from the working people and they give it to millionaires. Go look at any of the suburbs of Washington DC. None of them make anything. They're all in three million dollar houses. Because government spending is north of $7 trillion. Of course.

• 1:50:34Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that unfortunately, it's getting to the point where that kind of is our economy.

• 1:50:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:39Tucker Carlson?

  So you'd really need to reorder things on the, beginning with the foundations.

• 1:50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, well.

• 1:50:45Tucker Carlson?

  But two good things are happening. One, the empire is by necessity shrinking. And so that's a cost savings. And that's a reorientation back where the attention belongs, which is here. And two, you have the baby boom going away. Which is 1946, 1964. So people born in the middle in 1956 are now 70.

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:07Tucker Carlson?

  So they'll be 80 in 10 years. So you, that generation, clearly, I think everyone agrees, not everyone in it, but as a generation destroyed the country.

• 1:51:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Just the worst.

• 1:51:15Tucker Carlson?

  And annoyed the country.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  With some notable exceptions.

• 1:51:18Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  My mom included. She's cool, but the rest of them.

• 1:51:22Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, many, many notable exceptions. I know a million baby boomers that I, not a million, but I've met baby boomers I like.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Well, I just couldn't, I mean, the thing about it.

• 1:51:29Tucker Carlson?

  Not that many though.

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  There's Jeff Deist is a really, really brilliant guy. He was the, he ran the Mises Institute for years. He's over at Monetary Metals now. But he's a really, really brilliant guy. He had this speech one time where he was talking about the boomers and like the evolution of the generation and what they believed at the time. And it's so, it is just the most self-absorbed, selfish generation ever. I mean, they literally, their slogan was, don't trust anyone over 30 until they turned 30.

• 1:51:56Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  And then he does like, Jeff Deist like went through the whole thing. I don't remember all of it, but then by the end, they were the ones pushing COVID. Like they started out as the, don't trust anyone over 30. And then they said, shut down the schools so that I don't get sick. Like take from my grandchildren's generation so that I'm protected. And yeah, I mean.

• 1:52:17Tucker Carlson?

  But the dumbest too. I mean, the thing about their narcissism is the core sin. Like that's their, that's their main problem is they're all about themselves. The thing you notice about people who are all about themselves is how unwise and badly informed they are because they don't pay attention to other people. Therefore, they never learn. Therefore, and I've noticed this since I was a child, because these were my teachers, the baby boom. They'll fall for anything. They're the most easily manipulated people who've ever lived in this country. They are the most dominated by their herd instinct. All the kids are wearing masks. All the kids are taking the shots. All the kids are going into fights. Whatever all the other people are doing, they will do. They're the Mickey Mouse Club generation.

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:52Tucker Carlson?

  They are truly without creative impulse. They're just not impressive in addition to being super annoying.

• 1:53:02Tucker Carlson?

  One of the least attractive generations, like, there's a lot about them that we can, the least attached to their own children.

• 1:53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:07Tucker Carlson?

  You've got two houses, but your kids have no house? How does that work?

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the generation of no-fault divorce, the generation of, I gotta be me, I gotta pursue my own happiness, when you got little kids.

• 1:53:17Tucker Carlson?

  But you is not that interesting.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:19Tucker Carlson?

  But the more you think about you, the dumber you get. That's just what I've, I've just always noticed.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  It's like, one of the most profound ironies in life, like, this kind of counterintuitive thing, where, like, if you're only concerned with yourself, yourself is gonna suffer for that. You know, like, it's, it's really true, like, and, and you, you watch this all the time with people.

• 1:53:40Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:53:41Speaker 02

  With people who really have, like, um, you know, like, really bad depression, and are just, like, miserable, and they're constantly talking about their mood today, it's like, hey, step number one, stop thinking about your mood. Your mood is not that important. Here's step number one, start thinking about other people. How about this, try doing something productive for someone else other than yourself, and don't think about your mood once while you're doing it. And, you know, I'll tell you, I've, you know, I've, I've been on this earth for about forty-three years, and I haven't learned that much. I got a few things. Um, there's, I've never been anywhere near as happy since I got married and had kids. Like, once my life became about a family, and not just about me, you know what I mean? And, and I, I think I was in this generation that was-

• 1:54:25Tucker Carlson?

  Did you expect that?

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  No, man, I mean, I don't know, I always thought, before I met my wife, it was always to me, like, everything in my mind was like, like, professional success.

• 1:54:36Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  You know, like, that was, well, I wanted to be a successful comedian, and I wanted to, I wanted to talk about politics and all this stuff, and I wanted, I always wanted that. And, um, you know, it's weird now, because I've kind of, like, I've kind of gotten everything I, I really wanted in all those years, and it's, it's nice, don't get me wrong, I really love my career, I love what I do, I love this, I love doing shows with you, and it's, it's great. But, like, it's so unimportant compared to family. I mean, you know, like, it's just not even, it, it's not, the older you get, the more you realize, it's like, that's all that really matters. All that really matters are your, your wife, your children, the close friends that you have around you, like, the good people in your life, connection to other people, connection to God, that's all that really matters in life.

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  All the rest of it is kind of just part of the journey and part of the thing, but, um-

• 1:55:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, you do your best, knowing you're probably not gonna move the ball that far.

• 1:55:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, I read this, um- There was this really great book by, I believe the author's name, I, you know, I don't know if I've ever actually heard it pronounced, I've just read it, but it's like a Jean Twenge or Twenge or something, right? They're saying, now, I don't know about her, I think she was on Bill Maher's show recently, and she said one thing that I thought was really stupid and I turned it off, because I was like, I really liked her book, I just don't wanna, I don't wanna know, you know how you feel, you're like, I don't wanna, don't, but she wrote this book called, I think it was called The Me Generation, Generation Me, something like that, it was really great. I thought it was a really, really good book, and it was kind of about my generation who was raised by the boomers, and, you know, the way I was raised, and again, I'm not, not, I had a really great mother, she was really great, and instilled a lot of really

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  good things in me, this was bigger than her, this was just the culture, but we were raised, and I didn't think it was so unique at the time, but I was really kind of a, a child of the, you know, a child of the unipolar moment, I guess you could say, and then teenager, young adult.

• 1:56:28Tucker Carlson?

  Opposed to Berlin Wall.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I was, I remember watching it, watching the Berlin Wall come down, I was at my grandfather's house, and my grandfather, as I told you before, was from Germany, and I just, my only memory of it was, I was a little kid, I was born in eighty-three, so I guess I would have been six years old when this happened, so I'm a little kid, and I just remember, I was being a little kid and probably being loud in the living room or something, or walked in front of the TV, and I remember he snapped at me, I went, shh, and I, and I just remember being like.

• 1:56:55Tucker Carlson?

  How old was your grandfather when he left Germany?

• 1:56:57Speaker 02

  Uh, he would have been, I wanna say, like, fifteen, maybe?

• 1:57:02Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, wow, so old enough to remember?

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, old enough to remember some really vicious things, he got out in nineteen thirty-eight, but, so, anyway, he, so, so I just remember like, oh, this is really serious to grandpa, what's happening, and it was the Berlin Wall being coming down, yeah, it was a big deal to him, I'm not sure he liked it that much, I think he was a little concerned about German reunification.

• 1:57:24Tucker Carlson?

  Many were.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  You know, as, as you can imagine, but, uh, it turned out to be a good thing, uh, but, anyway, so, you know, I was, I kinda grew up in that time, in the eighties and the nineties, and there was...

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  We didn't have things that I think almost every other generation had like we weren't raised with like God, chivalry, nation, country, you know, there wasn't this, it was like you go to school and you know, get your homework done. So no one's mad at you and then you can go play basketball outside or there's a new video game out. It was let's, let's hang out with our friends and have fun. There wasn't like this, this, this like purpose, you know, like put into your life, which most people have in most of human history, even if it's just

• 1:58:07Tucker Carlson?

  They call it culture.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, culture, your religious views, you know, like, you know, important things. And I think there were a lot of people in, in my generation were like that, that it was almost like, again, like we said before, you can't, you can't take God out of the equation because something else just becomes God. And, and in a weird, like, I know I've heard you say this before, but it's so true. It's like the, the desire to worship is so hardwired into the DNA of the human soul that you just can't, you could say you're an atheist if you want to, but then like, I'll find out what your religion is pretty quickly. And oftentimes it just becomes yourself. You know, when you don't have other things, it becomes like, well, let me have fun. Let me go get this. But that is, like I said, 43

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  years, I haven't learned much in life. One thing I have learned for certain is that if your highest goal in life is your own pleasure, you will be a miserable, miserable human being.

• 1:59:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, I've learned that. I've learned that too. So as you look around at 43, among people you know who are your age grew up in the same world you grew up in, how many are thinking about the existence of God right now?

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  I think a lot more than ever were.

• 1:59:19Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever know any religious people growing up?

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I knew, I knew some, um, but it was very few and far between. Like that were really like religious or talked about it or what, you know, like I knew, um, you know, even like I, I went to a like Hebrew school, but I went for like a year to like my mom wanted me to be bar mitzvah, but it wasn't really like a deep religious conviction. It was more like, this is what our people have always done, you know, and like out of respect to your father and your father's father and your father's father's father, you know, like, and like I could kind of understand that. And so I went. Um, but it was like a reformed, you know, uh, temple where I went there. And I remember even the rabbi, like, you know, like some of the kids would be like, well, do you believe in God? He's like, eh, you know, everything that's good is God and everything, you know, it's just

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  total like, like Jewish, you know, like essentially atheism. And

• 2:00:08Tucker Carlson?

  I grew up around so many people like that.

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was just, you know, there was, there was just a lot of that. And I, I don't, you know, I certainly think that one of the things I really focus on as a father, and I have little kids, so, but I will focus on this more over the years is like instilling the idea of purpose, instilling the idea of like God and, and not just God, but like what that represents, that like, hey, you're, you know, you're here, we're all here in this life together. This life is a little bit of a mystery. We don't know everything about it.

• 2:00:41Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly right.

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  But we do know that like we, other people exist too, as we exist. And human beings can be, we have this amazing capacity to be demonic or angelic, you know, like you can really, you, one person, you know, there, there's little moments in life where, you know, whatever it is, like you're at the post office and it's 501 and you had to get this letter out today, or you're getting fired. And you're like, yo, my life is ruined. If you're talking to some person on the other end, can you please just take this one pack? You know, I'm just coming up with a scenario. And that person could go, all right, come here, give me the package. And you're like, yo, you just saved my life. You know what I mean? Like you have no idea what you just did for me. And like, you can do that for other people. You could try your best to

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  throughout your day and your career and your life, be like, yo, let me help this guy and be that person. Or, you know, you can be what Benjamin Netanyahu is to the Palestinians, you know, like just a monster, the guy who just like ruined their family's life. And so if we're kind of given this world and we don't have all of the answers to it, but we kind of know that we have like inability to be either one of those things. Hey, really focus on being the angel for people, really focus on trying to help others. And I think that makes you a much happier person, the more you focus on that.

• 2:01:59Tucker Carlson?

  Completely. And do you find that people you knew in the secular world growing up are reaching similar conclusions?

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I, I know several people, uh, like that. And I do, I think that, um, You know, he had a, an amazing meteoric rise and a really tragic fall, but I think this is why Jordan Peterson was such a phenomenon for years, that it was like, you know, going around and telling young men that you should search out purpose and search out God in life. It's amazing how, how like powerful that is.

• 2:02:30Tucker Carlson?

  I love that.

• 2:02:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 2:02:32Tucker Carlson?

  He takes a lot of abuse and, um, you know, he's against me or whatever. I don't even, I could care less, but I will always appreciate that about Jordan Peterson.

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 2:02:41Tucker Carlson?

  That he did that.

• 2:02:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I like, um, I, I, in a way, he was a guy who I always really wanted to talk to and never did. Um, he was, uh, you know, obviously, I mean, him joining the Daily Wire and, and going on that side was just really, really tragic mistake. And, um, I think he threw away all of the credibility that he had with the younger generation when, when they really could have used his voice, you know?

• 2:03:05Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree with that.

• 2:03:05Speaker 02

  He was never much as a political actor. He was always something else.

• 2:03:09Tucker Carlson?

  No, he's like a Canadian psychologist.

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, like this, this wasn't, you know.

• 2:03:12Tucker Carlson?

  Sit that part out.

• 2:03:13Speaker 02

  He missed the mark on a lot of his political points, but I mean, you know, when you're on record telling Benjamin Netanyahu to give them hell, uh, that's, that's really hard to come back from. But he came on, you know, he came on Joe Rogan's show, the episode after I debated Douglas Murray. I believe it was the next one was Jordan Peterson. And I remember watching it and I did feel like, I was like, oh man, I think he's gonna like say, you know what I mean? Like, I think he's gonna say something, you know, nasty about me because he's Ben Shapiro and Netanyahu's guy now, and they just had this big debate. And, and he didn't. Um, he kinda said, oh, I thought, he didn't name me. He mentioned Douglas and Joe, and he said, I thought, I thought everyone involved did a good job.

• 2:03:55Tucker Carlson?

  Good for him.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  So I was like, okay, that kinda, that was nice to me in a way that I was like, oh, he had, you know, from someone at the Daily Wire, that's about as good as I can expect.

• 2:04:02Tucker Carlson?

  He was a pretty charitable guy. I mean, I, you know, I thought he had flaws, but I was never, I, you know, I always said charitable and still do have charitable feelings toward him. Douglas Murray, however.

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  That's a different one.

• 2:04:12Tucker Carlson?

  What happened to Doug? Is he still, is he still living in this country?

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  No, he's doing great. I think he got a gig writing speeches for the Israeli government.

• 2:04:19Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, we did.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  From what I heard, yeah.

• 2:04:20Tucker Carlson?

  He did.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  Can I just, I don't know if I've, have I said this on your show before? I don't think so. Um, because I think last time we spoke was right after that debate, or last time we spoke on the podcast, not spoke.

• 2:04:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  In life, but uh, last time we, we were doing the show was right after that debate, but before this came out and it was, uh, Ryan Grim. And the guys over at Dropsite who, who published this, but so if you remember the famous, you've never been, uh, argument. Well, I got, I'm sorry. I should not call that an argument. There's, it's not an argument.

• 2:04:48Tucker Carlson?

  Didn't rise to the level.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  But what he said, what, what he was trying to say, which was really, you know, kind of silly, but he was like, uh, you know, he goes, well, uh, he said, I have the journalistic courtesy of visiting a place before I talk about that place. This was, he was lecturing me about journalistic ethics. Now, I'm not a journalist, Tucker. I'm a stand-up comedian. You, you've been a journalist for many years, so maybe you can fill me in on this. I don't, I'm not an expert, uh, in journalistic ethics. What are the ethics of covering a country and not disclosing that you work for the government? Is that up there?

• 2:05:24Tucker Carlson?

  It, you know, I would, I would have to consult like a professor of ethics, like Sam Bakman Freed's parents.

• 2:05:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:05:31Tucker Carlson?

  I think his mother does that for a living. So we have a whole infrastructure designed to answer complex questions like that, Dave. But I-

• 2:05:38Speaker 02

  By the way, how about I have the courtesy of, um, of not advocating for wars that I'm not willing to fight in myself. That's my professional, uh, courtesy, but I think-

• 2:05:49Tucker Carlson?

  That is a much better standard.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  Well, who spends, I mean, what type of person, and look, I, I-

• 2:05:53Tucker Carlson?

  But he kind of went away, didn't he? I mean, Douglas Murray was like, uh, I took him seriously. By the way, I knew him well. And, um, I thought he had, you know, there were things about him that I felt sorry for him, uh, because of them, but in general, it's smart. And I never had a problem with him at all. Had a couple of fun dinners with him. That debate, which you were proclaimed the loser of by a lot of people, I think that just destroyed his life.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, again, it was like, no one except the people who already had made up their mind that Israel is the greatest country ever, none, no one except them thought that he won the debate. A few of them seemed to celebrate that. The comment section under the video was just torching him, like every regular person went, oh, he just destroyed himself. And then I will say, a lot of people, including some prominent people who you listener know, including Charlie Kirk, by the way, texted me after that debate and were like, yo, dude, he just destroyed his credibility or like, or you, like, that was crazy that he came at you like that.

• 2:06:59Speaker 02

  I had people, you know, like this, whatever, I won't name all of them because I don't want to give out private information. Maybe I shouldn't have. I, I mentioned that about Charlie Kirk because Candace, months back, had, had called on me to like, to release whatever private communications I have that might be relevant. And I thought one of the things was relevant was that he said after the debate that he largely agreed with me, after the Douglas Murray debate.

• 2:07:20Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he certainly did. I talked to him on this topic.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  So I did think that was relevant into like where his mind state was, but other people, like, I think a lot of people kind of expected him to be like, they were like, okay, Dave, you've been blowing through these debates, but this is the best guy on the other side. So he's going to come really give you a challenge.

• 2:07:36Tucker Carlson?

  He had a British accent, so there was no chance that

• 2:07:38Speaker 02

  Well, that's right.

• 2:07:39Tucker Carlson?

  Someone from Brooklyn was going to beat him.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I guess that's the first, the first advantage that he had. But, you know, there's a weird thing where, again, kind of back to what I was saying before, you see this thing where, so after that debate happens, I have this huge, like, groundswell of support from people. Then Donald Trump tweets out, you gotta go get Douglas Murray's new book, like, two days after the debate or something like that. And it just, I thought there was an interesting parallel between that and when Donald Trump just tweeted the other day about how great, not the one to watch the show, but he tweeted last week about how wonderful Mark Levin is and how everyone arguing with him is awful or something like that. And if you look on Twitter, I'm not saying Twitter is everything, but it's one little, you know, glimpse into things.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  I mean, Mark Levin gets ratioed by random people. Like, not even like, like you or Megyn Kelly or someone like that. I'm saying like, some random guy will just call Mark Levin an idiot. And way more people like his tweet than like, like Mark Levin's tweet. He's out there, he's feuding it with Megyn Kelly. And he's calling you and me every name in the book. And then the entire audience is just going with us. And then Trump comes out and says, we're all in with him.

• 2:08:54Tucker Carlson?

  So I saw that when, when Trump tweeted that about you read, you know, Douglas Murray's dumb books. And I kind of willfully ignored it because I was so focused. Well, because I like Trump, but also because I was so focused on the Iran thing and just have to prevent a war with Iran.

• 2:09:12Speaker 02

  That's more important.

• 2:09:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know, though. I mean, that, that was foreshadowing. That actually there was a lot of, why would the President of the United States be promoting Douglas Murray? Who, you know, is not even American and he's like totally discredited. Why would the president be promoting him?

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, doing Mark Levin is much worse. I mean, look, Douglas Murray, I do think he, he was ridiculous and he kind of made an ass out of himself in that debate. But Mark Levin has gone to a level of retardation that I've never seen out of. You know, like, I, listen, I was never to, I, I was somewhat impressed by the first generation of neo cons. You know, I think.

• 2:09:51Tucker Carlson?

  I worked for them.

• 2:09:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I, I know.

• 2:09:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I was one.

• 2:09:54Speaker 02

  But I think, well, sorry. No, but I mean, like, I mean, like Leo Strauss and Irving Kristol and those guys, right? And, and, but then I always thought like, I always kind of went, you know, if you remember the, um, Fox News. Now, he wasn't really on your show a lot, but if you remember the reverence people used to have for Charles Krauthammer.

• 2:10:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:13Speaker 02

  Like, they would all talk about him, like, to his face, they'd be like, the genius is here. And then I'd be like, I've never heard him say anything interesting ever. I just don't, I don't know what the, but all of those guys, so I was always like.

• 2:10:24Tucker Carlson?

  One thing I'll say about Charles, who I knew really well, he was a very nice man. And he was a nice man because he had had to reckon with, you know, being paralyzed from the chest down from medical school. And, um.

• 2:10:37Tucker Carlson?

  And so he just had a perspective on life. I spent hours, hours talking to him and I knew his wife and I really liked him as a man, but his views were, you know, impossible to defend if you cared about the United States.

• 2:10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that right. But anyway, I guess with all of them, I was never particularly intellectually impressed with any of them.

• 2:10:55Tucker Carlson?

  No, I agree.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  If you want to see, by the way, if you want to see, if you've never watched, man, Scott Horton debating Bill Kristol at the Soho Forum.

• 2:11:02Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's unfair.

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  It was, you really exposed just how much Bill Kristol has nothing. No knowledge, no argument, nothing. He literally, I've never seen it happen before. He threw in the towel in the debate, essentially. He literally, at one point, Scott makes some argument, there was like a back and forth section, and Scott makes some argument and he goes, "Well, we just have fundamentally different worldviews." And you're like, "Yeah, that's why you're debating."

• 2:11:26Tucker Carlson?

  But Bill-

• 2:11:27Speaker 02

  You have to make an argument. And then-

• 2:11:28Tucker Carlson?

  Bill will never explain what his worldview is.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  And then in his, in his closing, there was still like three minutes on the clock and he just stopped. Anyway, I say all of this to say-

• 2:11:35Tucker Carlson?

  He doesn't care though.

• 2:11:36Speaker 02

  I've, I've seen some dumb arguments from neocons over the years. I have never seen anyone go full-blown Mark Levin, the way he goes. Like, it is, he's literally just a ranting old man yelling insults, unattached to any argument at all. Like, his whole show is just like, "Yeah, this little punk wants to come and talk to me, you little fascist." Like, it's like, what is this, dude? Like, and so, there is something about Donald Trump promoting that, that is, that's like several levels worse than promoting Douglas Murray.

• 2:12:11Tucker Carlson?

  No, but it's, so then you have to ask like, well, what actually is it?

• 2:12:14Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:15Tucker Carlson?

  It's not designed to win people over, it's designed to increase hatred. Anti-Semitism, by the way, absolutely. I mean, if you were, if you were, you know, whoever Mark thinks he's working for, the Israelis, I guess, you would look at this and say, "This is not helping us, don't do this."

• 2:12:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:12:31Tucker Carlson?

  You know, get some articulate, decent, hot woman on there to make the case, or whatever. You do a marketing thing. This is anti-marketing. This is designed to repel people. So why would you want that? I don't know the answer, but it's clearly true. Second, his relationship with the president is bizarre. You think Trump likes that? There was a, there was a moment at some anti, stop anti-Semitism event of some kind, or Hanukkah celebration, or some Jewish-themed White House event. Where Trump is there with Mark Levin and Levin comes over and puts his arm around the president's neck and pulls him in now. I know Trump well. I mean, I wouldn't like that and I'm not even the president or a germaphobe.

• 2:13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:14Tucker Carlson?

  What is that? And under normal circumstances, Trump would never put up with that. You just what you're you're doing the dominance move over the president of the United States.

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  And over Donald Trump.

• 2:13:24Tucker Carlson?

  Are you?

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  Not just the president, but Donald Trump, the most dominant alpha male guy.

• 2:13:29Tucker Carlson?

  That's a dominant.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Does that to other people.

• 2:13:31Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 2:13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:32Tucker Carlson?

  But even Trump, who is very much about dominance, obviously, most powerful men are. He would, Trump would never throw his arm around someone and give him a headlock like that.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I hope pull you in while he shakes your hand.

• 2:13:44Tucker Carlson?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:13:44Speaker 02

  Or he'll do the thing, what did he do at one of the G seven meetings or whatever, where he cuts in front of some other world leader? But like there are, by the, this is another thing that I am totally.

• 2:13:52Tucker Carlson?

  That's breaking the rules, dude.

• 2:13:54Speaker 02

  But I'm oblivious to this thing, but this is, as you said, powerful men are like this. Where there's like alpha moves.

• 2:14:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:14:00Speaker 02

  Like taking your thing and just make it, you know, like whatever, like if you have a little thing of peanuts here that you're eating and I just reach in and tail, you know what I mean? Like, but to do that to Donald Trump, I understand, I'm not trying to make too much of a little thing.

• 2:14:11Tucker Carlson?

  It's not a little thing.

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  But that was, there was something symbolic and then proclaims him the first Jewish president.

• 2:14:19Tucker Carlson?

  You gotta think.

• 2:14:19Speaker 02

  Very strange.

• 2:14:20Tucker Carlson?

  That Trump, he never said this to me, but just knowing him, you gotta think he's filled with rage. Someone doing that to him.

• 2:14:27Speaker 02

  Well, look.

• 2:14:28Tucker Carlson?

  But he puts up with it anyway. So, and but why would you do that to him? So if you want to exert influence over someone who's powerful, like there's a way to do it. But the last way to do it is to be like, I'm in charge here, just so you know.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:40Tucker Carlson?

  I'm more powerful than the president of the United States. That's what Levin is saying and Trump is putting up with it. This is either, it's a form of sadomasochism, but it also reveals like the true architecture of power in a way that's like, what?

• 2:14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think.

• 2:14:54Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 2:14:55Speaker 02

  Well, here, I'll say this, and I'm just to preface this, I'm not saying anything other than what I'm saying. I'm not implying something that I don't know any more than this and maybe you know more than I do. But I will say, you know, people used to say when Donald Trump was first rising to political, uh, his political career in 2016, when he was running, when he was first president. I, I remember liberals used to always say that he's dog whistling bigotry.

• 2:15:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  And, you know, we always thought this was so always like a dog whistle, but it's like a thing where you kind of. First of all, it's kind of weird because you're like, well, then wouldn't you not hear it? If it's a dog whistle because wouldn't only the bigots hear it? Isn't that the idea? Also, that seems like a very convenient way of saying, even though there's nothing I can actually point to that you said, he's also raised. But what I always thought was that what Donald Trump did was he would very often stoke or give a wink and a nod to conspiracies.

• 2:15:54Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, big time.

• 2:15:55Speaker 02

  Look, he went out there about Obama's birth certificate. He obviously called out the whole Russiagate thing, which was a legit conspiracy to unseat the sitting president.

• 2:16:05Tucker Carlson?

  No, but the Q thing.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  The Q thing. He'd float out the, obviously, the election being stolen, but all the witch hunt. And of course now with Epstein, when it's not really, well, it is a conspiracy, but it's a legitimate one. But he's saying, oh, it's, you know, there's a democratic hoax. He is very quick to any time it will help him look good to be like, it's a conspiracy against me. Never once with Butler. Never once. And it's kind of crazy, man. Like, we don't, we have like no informa-, they haven't even like attempted to give us a national story that puts a little bow on top of like who this guy was or what happened,

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  how there was such a security failure that could allow a sniper 130 yards away to get a clean shot at the president, a former president and current candidate's head. What the, just kind of, no internet history, can't get into his phones. Ah, he wanted to kill anyone he could. That's all, nothing to see here. And it's just a little bizarre to me that you would think, like, all other things making sense, you would just think you would hear Donald Trump going, they tried to kill me. They tried to do this, they tried to do, but, I mean, days afterward, he just thanked the Secret Service for what a great job they did. And I don't know what any of that means.

• 2:17:24Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I know a lot about it. And I'll just say this, which we said publicly is I, you know, I got a call from somebody who said, I've got a lot of material from the gunman. I'm not disputing he's the gunman, by the way, seems like the gunman. Question is like, was he working in concert with anyone else? Were there other people involved?

• 2:17:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's the same with Charlie Kirk. It's not a question of, you know, I don't know anything. But the question is never just did the guy pull the trigger.

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 2:17:51Tucker Carlson?

  Prove or disprove that with the videotape that we don't have from the Charlie Kirk assassination for some reason, but whatever. The point is, that's only one part of the story. The question was, were there other people involved? And in the case of Butler, I got this corpus of information from a guy almost off the street. We showed that it was real. Always skeptical of this stuff, very skeptical, but it turns out this was actually from Thomas Crooks's YouTube account. And the FBI claimed that this didn't exist. Well, of course, they knew it existed. So then, then the question becomes, well, why are they, since the man is dead in this sole shooter crime, there's lone gunman, and the lone gunman's gone. Why would we hold back anything, any evidence we have? But they did.

• 2:18:37Tucker Carlson?

  And that would include video surveillance of the shooting range where he trained to shoot a pretty good shot over 100 yards with a 223. I should have 223. That's like, everyone's, all these SEALs are like, oh, that's nothing. But like, for a non SEAL.

• 2:18:49Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:18:51Tucker Carlson?

  It's a decent shot. So there's videotape from the shooting range. Did he train alone? Who was with him? Never been released. And the investigation was shut down, shut down. So what does that mean? I don't know. But, I mean, like, what is going on?

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I gotta say.

• 2:19:09Tucker Carlson?

  Why can't we know?

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  Well, hearing the heroic former director of counterterrorism come on your show and kind of say the same thing does just have a lot more weight to it when the guy was literally the director of counterterrorism and going like, hey, what's going on here? We have not gotten answers over these things.

• 2:19:28Tucker Carlson?

  He tied those facts, those are facts. He stated facts. By the way, when he, now we've just heard the FBI is not actually investigating him, that was all fake. He retained his security clearance until the morning he left. So if he was under investigation for treason or something, he wouldn't have held his clearance and had access to highest level intelligence, which he retained until the day he, the moment he resigned. So, okay, that was all a lie. But he said point blank, one of the most informed people in the United States with clearances higher, I think even than Mark Levin's.

• 2:19:59Tucker Carlson?

  There's a connection between Trump's decision to go to war in Iran and these not fully explained acts of violence. He said that. So, okay, before we denounce him as crazy, which maybe he is, I don't know, doesn't seem to be, but I hold open any possibility. What is he talking about? And there has not only been zero interest from like the people in charge of ginning up interest, like the internet, the influencers.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:28Tucker Carlson?

  There's been calculated discouragement and attacks on anyone who persists in asking the question.

• 2:20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, like-

• 2:20:35Tucker Carlson?

  And I haven't gotten involved because I know everybody and it's, it's so emotional to me, but at a certain point, I'm gonna, you know, whatever, I feel like I've got a pretty close vantage on all this stuff and I'm getting a little sick of it because every American has a right to justice, not just for himself, but for any other American citizen. Our whole system rests on the idea that there will be justice affected by the US government and we have a right to know. You have no right to keep that from me. On what grounds are you keeping that from me? You can't browbeat me into it by screaming Candace Owens again and again and again.

• 2:21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:21:07Tucker Carlson?

  Or whatever.

• 2:21:08Speaker 02

  And, and look, like-

• 2:21:09Tucker Carlson?

  Sick of this.

• 2:21:10Speaker 02

  To me, I've, I've tried-

• 2:21:11Tucker Carlson?

  It's outrageous, actually.

• 2:21:12Speaker 02

  No, absolutely. And I, listen, I'll say just, just personally, like, I, uh, you know, and I, I knew Charlie and, um, not super well, we weren't like close friends, but like I'd done a show a few times and we texted a few times and he had me at that, that last, uh, had me do the debate there and we hung out for a little bit while we were there. And, you know, it's, uh, I wasn't as close with him as, as you were, but it's even just like being friends with someone like that, it's, it's, first off, it's like, it's very jarring, uh, to see that happen and then he's got a wife and little kids, really tragic, horrible situation. And I'm like, my incentives on all of this is like, I just don't wanna believe that this was anything more than like one crazy guy with a transfurry boyfriend or whatever like that.

• 2:21:57Speaker 02

  That actually is much more comforting to me than it's some conspiracy. Half of Twitter seem to think I was the one who got him killed or something like that, or me and you and Meghan or something.

• 2:22:06Tucker Carlson?

  I very much vehemently wanna believe that.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  Yes, right. So like, we don't want that. I will say, so, and, and I have not done like deep dives and, and watched all of Candace's shows on this or something, but like there's little pieces of information, just like, it's been confirmed by a few different people that he was texting them, "They're gonna kill me." Like, hey, man, that's gotta be like totally exhausted, didn't investigate it. I mean, what is this here? This is a pretty big deal. You've really got to get to the bottom of stuff like that. And look, as you're sitting here, and you know, it's almost like sometimes people will, will call, you know, they'll call you out for being a conspiracy theorist or something, or you know, you, they say the just asking questions.

• 2:22:46Tucker Carlson?

  You know what's worse than being a conspiracy theorist is having no curiosity.

• 2:22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:49Tucker Carlson?

  About questions that have not been answered.

• 2:22:51Speaker 02

  Well, also, it's, there's just something.

• 2:22:52Tucker Carlson?

  And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I believe in curiosity and skepticism. And I've encouraged that in a lot of people, and some have been very resistant to be curious.

• 2:23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:00Tucker Carlson?

  Or skeptical. And there are two sides to this. There's not simply the people who are coming up with conspiracy theories. Some of them obviously fantastical and wrong, I would think. There's also the government side, which is telling you, shut up, we have this solved. And I think we should apply the same skepticism to their claims as well. There's no reason that the FBI should get an automat, on the basis of what?

• 2:23:19Speaker 02

  Well, also.

• 2:23:20Tucker Carlson?

  Their track record of always telling the truth to people?

• 2:23:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:23:22Tucker Carlson?

  Like, what are you even talking about?

• 2:23:24Speaker 02

  Well, that's.

• 2:23:24Tucker Carlson?

  And how dare you threaten me and call me names? I mean, I'm not getting paid for this. I, you know, I've stayed out of it. I'm just getting too mad.

• 2:23:33Speaker 02

  Well, even.

• 2:23:34Tucker Carlson?

  Watching this.

• 2:23:34Speaker 02

  So even before the Epstein files got released, back when Podesta emails were, were released and the original pizza gate theory was, was born. And, you know, if you look through some of those Podesta emails, look, they're clearly talking in code. Now, what is the code? I mean, people are speculating that it was about children. Now, I have absolutely no reason to believe that, but they're not planning pizza parties. You know what I mean? Like, they're speaking in code.

• 2:24:07Tucker Carlson?

  When Epstein's urologist, who's just prescribed him erectile dysfunction drugs, says, take the pills and then meet me for pizza and grape soda, I, that's in the Epstein files. Maybe there, maybe it has nothing to do with sex, maybe they're actually, you get wicked hungry after you take a boner pill. I don't know. But the fact that nobody cares to find out or even interview the urologist or spring them in and say, hey, what is this?

• 2:24:34Speaker 02

  That's right. And I felt the same way back then.

• 2:24:35Tucker Carlson?

  Who drinks grape soda? What are you even talking? There's no white person in America who drinks grape soda. Stop.

• 2:24:40Speaker 02

  I haven't had grapes. I maybe had grape soda when I was a child once.

• 2:24:43Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not against it. I'm just saying, like, talk to the urologist.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  No, well, right. Exactly. So it's, the thing about it is, right, like even with the original pizza gate thing, the position of like the corporate media was to sit there and go, you're an idiot if you think this code is about, oh, you're a conspiracy theorist if you think, instead of putting a microphone in front of John Podesta and going, hey, you're clearly speaking in code here. People are assuming that that code is for raping children, so clear this up, because it can't be any worse than what people are speculating. So what is it, sir? And no one ever even thinks to do that in this, in this phony media.

• 2:25:19Tucker Carlson?

  And all the hostility is aimed at people who are asking the questions. And that, that's a tell right there. You know, there's people, here you have gunshots ringing out in my country, people getting killed or an attempted murder, couple of attempted murders, there will be more, unfortunately. And anyone who's interested in like finding out or doesn't automatically trust the government, which we're supposed to be skeptical of, that person is the villain?

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And, and you know, in, in a similar thing, there, I don't know, I, maybe I'm going to struggle to like word this the right way, but there's certain things that in a vacuum might be true, but aren't true in all circumstances. So in, in other words, like, if you, typically speaking, you'd go, hey, before you want to start, you know, believing something, you got to see strong evidence for it or something like that. Or you can't just start theorizing and speculating about things without like some indication or something pointing you in that direction. But then like, if me and you both just wake up, uh, together and we, we're blacked out for the last 10 hours and we're chained up in a prison somewhere or something like that, and you start going like,

• 2:26:30Speaker 02

  We gotta start speculating about how the hell we got here because this is so crazy. You know what I mean? And then I'd be like, hey, my neighbor said something this morning to me about how like, I bet it's gonna be a rough day, you know? And I'm like, we gotta think maybe my neighbor had something to do with this. Now, then some skeptic could come along and go, your neighbor saying it's gonna be a bad day doesn't act, isn't actually evidence. And you're like, okay, but we're here, like, we gotta. And so, in a sense, there's like, okay, yes, you could, you can be skeptical and it's good to be skeptical of some of these claims. But at the same time, we're sitting here watching, it's so crazy to watch, right? But the never Trumpers are now the biggest hardcore Trump supporters as they're destroying

• 2:27:15Speaker 02

  the coalition that they were afraid of, right? Destroying Trump himself? Right. And so, you've watched this happen and that does lead you to go, how exactly did they pull this off? How is it that people like, you know, so I, you know, look, I'm a little bit more hot-headed than you at times and maybe this is because, you know, I'm a little, I'm a decade younger than you and I still drink big glasses of whiskey at night and I still, and I'm just furious about a lot of things and I'm, maybe I should, you know, let some of that go. But, you know, like, I'm still furious at Ben Shapiro and the only reason I hate Ben Shapiro's guts is because he called Ron Paul a Jew hater back in the day when it was totally just ridiculous. You read some of these tweets recently, I think.

• 2:27:58Speaker 02

  Ron Paul is up there talking about how it's not wise to fight multiple wars, this is what brings down nation and Ben Shapiro goes, I bet you just wanna strangle a Jew. You know, he's like, fuck you, dude. How dare you speak to a man so much better than you that way? Anyway, but, so I was furious over the 12-day war last summer. I was too. And I went on Breaking Points, great show, with Crystal and Sager, who I love very much. He's so smart, man. Great. I literally love Sager to death. He's just great. Someone I'm really happy to call a friend. And, so I went on their show right after it and I called for Trump's impeachment. I said he should be impeached and removed for this. He's launched a war of aggression, it's illegal, it's for a foreign country, it's what he

• 2:28:43Speaker 02

  promised not to do. You know, I was very angry. I still stand by that, but I was angry. And then, of course, all of them. All the guys, you know, Josh Hammer and Ben Shapiro and Mark Levin, they all just start talking shit about me. Look, this guy doesn't support Trump. Oh, he voted for Trump last time, but he's calling for his impeachment now. As if I don't remember where all you guys were in 2016, when National Review was running their Never Trump edition, and Ben Shapiro promised for, for deeply held principled reasons, he could never support Donald Trump. And Mark Levin was never Trump. All these guys were never Trump. Now that he's become a warhawk, what he explicitly ran against being in every election, now that he's become

• 2:29:27Speaker 02

  that, they all love him to death, and they're destroy, like, so anyway, my point is, sorry, sometimes you see facts like that, and you go, that's worth speculating about. I do have some questions I'd like to ask on how exactly these guys were able to infiltrate this movement, destroy it from within, and, you know, set our country on this trajectory toward another catastrophic war. There's, there's, there's a lot that went into that happening.

• 2:29:51Tucker Carlson?

  I couldn't agree more. I guess the only last thing I would say about it is, you started by saying the legacy media covered for the crimes of their masters, the ruling class. Okay, got it. I mean, that's what they exist to do. That's why we have NBC News. That's why CNN exists. No, I totally, that's why Fox is here. But to see people in independent media doing that, and I understand it's very easy to get sidetracked, like you're mad at one person, and so anyone who is asking similar questions to that person, like, must be on that side or something, but like, try to retain independence in your head, like, don't get sidetracked. Certain questions have to be answered, no matter who's asking them, right?

• 2:30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:35Tucker Carlson?

  One of the questions I still can't answer is, why is it that all the neocons are the ones leading the screaming and anyone who asks questions about Charlie Kirk's death, when Charlie Kirk was an enemy of the neocons, like, open enemy of the neocons, invited you. To TPUSA, like you don't invite, and he didn't, it's not because the kids at TPUSA are like, "Oh, I grew up loving Dave Smith."

• 2:31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's, I said that, I've said this on other shows too, but I said this to you, that it's like, there was something about inviting, you know, inviting you or Megyn Kelly.

• 2:31:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, we're on Fox News, it's fine.

• 2:31:09Speaker 02

  And huge.

• 2:31:10Tucker Carlson?

  Famous, yeah.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  Stars on Fox News, not just like someone on Fox News, like two of the biggest shows.

• 2:31:15Tucker Carlson?

  There's no reason to invite you to a Turning Point event unless he wants the kids in the audience to hear your views.

• 2:31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:22Tucker Carlson?

  Which he did because he substantively agreed with them. And I would know, because I talk to him about this a lot, like a lot, a lot, over years. So for the neo-cons whom he at best didn't trust and mostly really didn't like, I never talk about what I think Charlie thought, because it feels so weird because he's gone. But I just have to say this, they're the ones leading the charge on, "Shut up, don't ask any questions." You tell me what this is.

• 2:31:46Speaker 02

  Well, that's.

• 2:31:47Tucker Carlson?

  And I'm not going to take orders from them. Who are these people, anyway?

• 2:31:50Speaker 02

  This is the same reason why, this is the reason why I read that text message that he, he sent me, and it was because, well, part of it was because Candace asked, and I'm friends with Candace, and she was very, she lost someone she was very close to. But part of it was that, you know, because it's a weird thing to do, it's a weird thing to share private text messages with anyone.

• 2:32:08Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I agree, I agree.

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  Especially someone who just died, and I got some pushback for that, and I understand why people, like, I get their point. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, I'm not sure, but, you know, it was the thing where, like, Netanyahu immediately is trying to hijack his legacy. Josh Hammer and all these guys are immediately trying to hijack his, and so it's kind of like.

• 2:32:24Tucker Carlson?

  And selling their books, by the way, at the same time.

• 2:32:25Speaker 02

  Right, right. Literally, dude, it's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in my life. Josh Hammer did three interviews immediately after, the only reason anyone's interviewing him is because he was friends with Charlie Kirk, or he was close around his circle or whatever, and every single time he mentioned how much Charlie loved his book. It's like, Jesus, dude, I mean, I just could never imagine getting here.

• 2:32:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I think it's a little strong to say.

• 2:32:44Speaker 02

  Everybody, you know, the last thing.

• 2:32:45Tucker Carlson?

  Charlie was friends with Josh Hammer.

• 2:32:46Speaker 02

  Well, okay, well, he, he had him in his circles, or whatever, his handler, or whatever it was, but, you know, I remember, you know, right before Charlie died, he called me and he said, "Man, I just wish everyone would listen to your podcast." It's like, this is so crazy of a thing to say.

• 2:32:59Tucker Carlson?

  Unbelievable.

• 2:33:00Speaker 02

  But the reason I I released that is because I'm like, look, I don't know exactly where Charlie was on his evolution on this topic. Obviously, he had at one point been a diehard pro-Israel guy, but a lot of people were that and then kind of woke up over the last couple of years. But I know that he texted me after my debate with Douglas Murray, that he said he thought I did a great job, and he really did. He said something like, I read it verbatim on my show, but he said something like, I believe it or not, I really didn't disagree with almost anything you said.

• 2:33:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:26Speaker 02

  And I'm just saying, Ben Shapiro wasn't sending me that text.

• 2:33:29Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 2:33:29Speaker 02

  So for people to try to pretend there was no daylight between the two of them is just not true.

• 2:33:34Tucker Carlson?

  No, there was hostility.

• 2:33:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:33:38Tucker Carlson?

  Big time. And not just with, you know, those guys. Hostility. I mean, I don't want to overstate it. I'm not saying he hated them as people, but I mean, he did not agree at all.

• 2:33:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:33:48Tucker Carlson?

  And

• 2:33:49Speaker 02

  And certainly didn't agree with war with Iran.

• 2:33:51Tucker Carlson?

  At all. And with also, honestly, some of the Christian Zionist leaders. I mean, Charlie was very, he loved Israel as a country, for sure. And I think he had a complicated theology, which I did not fully understand and still don't fully understand. But the idea that you would put another country before your own, like, he just rejected that flat out. And some of those, some of the Christian Zionist leaders, men are very aggressive and shark-like, and very money-oriented and pushy.

• 2:34:19Speaker 02

  And he started talking about that openly.

• 2:34:21Tucker Carlson?

  He talked about it with me a lot.

• 2:34:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, he talked about it on Megyn Kelly's show. I mean, talked about the reaction he got from

• 2:34:26Tucker Carlson?

  From evangelical leaders?

• 2:34:27Speaker 02

  From, well, maybe not from the evangelical

• 2:34:29Tucker Carlson?

  It wasn't. It was a mix. It was a mixture

• 2:34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was probably, yeah, yeah, probably a mix of both.

• 2:34:32Tucker Carlson?

  Of, you know, Jewish Zionists, like, like the guys you mentioned, but also the people he grew up with, who were evangelical leaders. And he was upset with them. I mean, I talked to him about it at length. It's, I could name names with who was upset. I'm not going to, but, because he's gone. But, yeah, that's just real. And, I don't know. I, I don't even like talking about this, but I'm just offended by where this is going. And the bottom line is, every American has an interest in every murder getting solved. And not just in getting solved, but fully solved.

• 2:35:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:05Tucker Carlson?

  And if you have a government agency that's shutting down a legitimate line of inquiry, at very least, you have to answer the question, why are you doing that? And they, and Joe Kent has said in public multiple times, including to me, the FBI shut down any effort to look into international connections here, within days of the killing. So someone should ask the FBI, like, why'd you do that? And no one seems willing to ask.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  And look, we also know what we know about this FBI, uh, who I just could not be more disgusted with. And, you know, um, I know you saw when.

• 2:35:40Tucker Carlson?

  Everyone's afraid of them.

• 2:35:41Speaker 02

  Well, when Dan Bongino was talking all types of shit to me on Twitter or whatever, but it's, it's like, look, man, you just, you, you know, there was a thing where people were saying, uh, they were trying to go Dan Bongino into debating me because he was talking shit about me and, you know, as I was, I think I responded in kind. Um, but the thing is like, he can't, uh, Dan Bongino, not only can he not come debate me, Dan Bongino can't ever do a difficult interview ever again for the rest of his life because he's ended in one question. I literally one question ends it. I just go, hey, okay. So you looked the American people in the eyes and you swore that you had seen the proof that Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.

• 2:36:24Speaker 02

  Well, it's been declassified by an act of Congress now, so go ahead and tell us, what'd you say? What's the proof? It's all declassified now. There, but it doesn't, it doesn't, what are the, the few exceptions in the rule? If it's national security or if it harms the victims or something like that? How would it possibly be any of those for you to just tell me what you saw that made you comfortable enough to go out there and swear that you had seen proof that he killed himself? Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, any, but these guys specifically, and this is one of the big things I think that.

• 2:36:55Tucker Carlson?

  I just want to interject, I'm not, this is not even anyone in particular, but, um, you know, we say we know things, but I would always add the caveat to the extent you can know things.

• 2:37:05Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:37:06Tucker Carlson?

  Like, I've known many things, I've turned out to be wrong, you know, so I could be wrong, but this is sincere. I believe I can say with certainty that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered.

• 2:37:16Tucker Carlson?

  So I, so, I mean, but of course, I'm always open to countervailing evidence, always.

• 2:37:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:37:21Tucker Carlson?

  Because I'm ever mindful of my capacity for being wrong. But I can say if you could x-ray my heart, you would find that I believe with total certainty, he was murdered and the people in the US government knew that he was murdered. I don't want that to be true, but I believe it is true. So like, it's gonna take a lot, you're gonna have to show me that that's false.

• 2:37:38Speaker 02

  Well, the, the reason why I have so much contempt for, uh, Dan Bongino and Cash Patel, particularly, um, and Pam Bondi too, but more so the other two, is that these guys went around, and really Dan Bongino, I mean, Cash did many podcasts and stuff, but Dan Bongino got rich doing his show, had a really big show, and he flamed that Epstein stuff for so long, was like, "Don't let go of this one, this is a huge scandal, we're gonna get in there and expose it." And I gotta say, every bit as much as the war in Iran, maybe not quite as much as this most recent one, but the covering up the Epstein scandal did so much to damage this administration.

• 2:38:23Tucker Carlson?

  Totally agree.

• 2:38:23Speaker 02

  Because it went to something very fundamental, the, the fundamental promise of Donald Trump, and the reason why Donald Trump, uh, I, I believe the main reason that he rode to political success and won the presidency twice, was that, uh, was that he said he was going to "drain the swamp." "Drain the swamp" was an incredibly effective campaign slogan. It was essentially saying, "Look, man, on some level, almost all Americans know this, this city in DC is filled with corruption, and the people in political power have committed profound crimes against the American people, and none of them have been held accountable for it, and we're gonna hold them accountable for this."

• 2:39:05Speaker 02

  And for this Justice Department now to go in and put up zero deep state arrests, I mean, dude, if you just think about the fact that the intelligence agencies framed the sitting president for treason for four years, I mean, in obvious deep state coup to, uh, to overthrow- Or an attempted deep state coup to attempt to overthrow a democratically elected president. Like it is, it was an outrage that they did it to him on the campaign, but it is a little bit different. When he's a presidential candidate than when he is the commander in chief, the president of the United States of America. They framed him for being a Russian spy. Donald Trump is a lot of things. He is not a Russian spy.

• 2:39:46Speaker 02

  Okay, there has never been one. It was the most ridiculous thing ever. It was all complete phony evidence and they knew it. They knowingly went forward with that and um, Andrew, Andrew McCabe admitted on 60 Minutes. That he said their plan was to invoke the 25th amendment, but they realized they couldn't get enough people to go along with that. And so they settled for Robert Mueller. They settled for a special investigation that would tie him down. And not let him get his America first uh, agenda through. So there's that, there's COVID. There's, you know what I'm saying? There's the Epstein stuff. There's all types of crap. I mean, COVID, you think about it. We free, they freaking locked down the country and didn't disclose that they made it.

• 2:40:27Speaker 02

  They made the germ themselves. Fauci was like the hero of the response for like a year and a half before they finally came out that it was him who made it. I mean, just, and, and they have just at every turn protected power. And again, like with the Epstein thing, man, like you don't have to, you only have to know, like, I don't know. You, you just know, like, even if you know, like five or six things about it, you're like, okay, this is some type of huge conspiracy. You know, like, I don't know exactly what it is. And by the way, the files being released did shake up my interpretation of the whole thing. I tweeted this once, but I kind of, I mean, I was saying it tongue in cheek, but I kind of meant it sincerely. That I used to speculate that Jeffrey Epstein worked for Mossad.

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  And after the files came out, it's looking a lot more like the Mossad worked for Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, I did not think he was the, the Rothschilds guy. I didn't realize that, you know? And so like, this thing is a gigantic conspiracy. It's a, it's an interesting, limited look into how power really works. And, and you know what I mean? Like what's really going on?

• 2:41:32Tucker Carlson?

  Looking through a stained glass window. You don't get a clear picture, but you see the shapes and you realize this is not what I thought it was. I actually came away from reading a lot of the Epstein stuff. With the view of Israel that was diminished, I thought Israel had less power. Of course, he was working with Mossad. I said that and got called a Jew hater, whatever. It was just true. So we're also working with CIA and intelligence services from around the world. But what he really was doing was acting as an employee of others as a kind of communications hub

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:42:03Tucker Carlson?

  Between the biggest stakeholders in the West. And so what you really saw was that governments aren't in charge. There's no meaningful nation state with full sovereignty. Like, that's just not a thing. There's a suprastructure whose outlines I can't fully see or even partly see. But it's clearly there. And it's not all being run from the Levant by Netanyahu, who's probably got an IQ of 110. He's not a genius. So like, do you know what I mean?

• 2:42:29Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, 100%.

• 2:42:31Tucker Carlson?

  It's way bigger than Israel. Israel is just like a place to, you know, hide out if you've been accused of a crime, get a passport, do some money laundering, you know, whatever. It's a lot of things, but it's not, Israel's not running the world.

• 2:42:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, there's something that you're absolutely right. There is, there is, there are power structures that we do not fully know about that are way more important than a senator.

• 2:42:52Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, because we bought the biggest lie of all, which is a competition between nation states and you know what I mean?

• 2:42:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:42:58Tucker Carlson?

  Ghana's got its own interests, but so does Singapore and China and India. And it's like, yeah, to some extent, but that's not, as soon as you have the free flow of capital, a globalized economy, then you have a globalized government. It's just a fact. And by government, I mean a governing body, which may be informal or have blurry edges, but it's still totally real. It's way more real than countries.

• 2:43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:21Tucker Carlson?

  How are countries, like, that's like almost a medieval view.

• 2:43:25Speaker 02

  Well, even, but even-

• 2:43:26Tucker Carlson?

  Countries with kings and armies. It's like so dumb.

• 2:43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's right. And, and maybe it was, you know, it's like, it probably wasn't even true in medieval times, you know what I mean?

• 2:43:35Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it literally wasn't, but like after 1848, like after you had like the creation of like real, the resemblance or the, maybe the fiction of nation states. I mean, I think it's more complicated than I'm making it sound, but-

• 2:43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:49Tucker Carlson?

  It's clearly not as simple as everyone else assumes.

• 2:43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I know-

• 2:43:53Tucker Carlson?

  Countries actually in their own interests. Come on.

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  It's, and there's this really great book written by Murray Rothbard, who I mentioned earlier, called The Progressive Era. And it's about, you know, the, it's about, I think that goes from- It might like Theodore Roosevelt.

• 2:44:08Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 2:44:09Speaker 02

  Woodrow Wilson, FDR. And one of the things that they talk about is that there was, and this really is true, is that there were like, there were real people who really like meant well and were kind of, in my opinion, got it wrong. But you know, the, the kind of moderate socialist types or the progressives who, who were like, hey, we're such a wealthy country.

• 2:44:30Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  We should have more of a managed economy so that we can make sure it's working for, for everybody. But really what ends up happening in the progressive era is then all the, you know, all, all the titans of industry, all the robber barons, as they call it, they all got on board with it. And they went, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. We should have a managed economy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll be doing the managing. You know, it was all, it was like all the money interests that they supposedly wanted to rein in were the guys who ended up getting control of the government anyway. And so that's just, this is how it

• 2:45:00Tucker Carlson?

  works. It's Black Lives Matter as sponsored by Microsoft.

• 2:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. That's right.

• 2:45:05Tucker Carlson?

  It's always the same.

• 2:45:06Speaker 02

  The gay pride parade has like a Bank of America float coming through it. And you're like, I mean, I know there is some leftist out there who really believes in the gay pride parade, but like something bigger is going on than what you're paying attention to.

• 2:45:17Tucker Carlson?

  Dave, no, really, it's liberation. Just trust me. This is gonna be liberation.

• 2:45:20Speaker 02

  It's too ridiculous, man.

• 2:45:23Tucker Carlson?

  I know. Ah, well, good. Thank you for everything you're doing. And I'm sorry if that got, I never get emotional, but I'm sorry to start yelling at you, but that's just stuff just.

• 2:45:31Speaker 02

  I enjoy it. It's literally, nothing makes me happier than to be held at in agreement.

• 2:45:35Tucker Carlson?

  You got me worried now. Dave Smith, you're the best. Thank you.

• 2:45:39Speaker 02

  Thank you, sir.