21: Idaho 4: Finally a Motive?, Second Murderer and Staged Crime Scene?

After Bryan Kohberger admitted to murdering University of Idaho students Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, this case is once again sending shockwaves through the true crime world. Newly unsealed records are exposing chilling new details about the brutality of the killings, while fresh debate is erupting over possible motive, whether parts of the crime scene could have been staged, and what may have never come out without a trial. At the same time, the victims’ families are now taking aggressive legal action that could reveal what warning signs may have existed before the murders ever happened…. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources ABC News | AP News | Biography.com | BRIAN ENTIN INVESTIGATES | Court TV | Crime Stories with Nancy Grace | E News | Fox News | Idaho News | NBC News | News Nation | People | Reddit | The Independent••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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• 1:16Annie Elise?

  You know those cases that you think you're finally done with? Like, you've gone through all of the court system steps, the sentencing, you know? You feel like you know everything there is to know about the case, but then it just pops back up again with even more insane details that you never expected to see? Well, yeah, that's where we're at with today's case. The ass-crap wad, I don't know if that's a new term, but like, the complete loser, scumbag, in my opinion, incel that he is, Brian Koberger. I don't know how this guy keeps managing to, like, resurface, like, the fucking plague, but here we are. There's more details, more barbaric things, as if it could even get any more awful than it was, and there's a lot that we need to go over.

• 1:59Annie Elise?

  We have been talking about this case for literal years now, but let me just say, if you're new here, or if you haven't heard of it, we are gonna do just a very, very brief little recap. For you, but let's rewind and go back in time for a moment. Four University of Idaho students, Kaylee Goncalves, Matty Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin were horrifically and brutally stabbed to death in their off-campus house back in November of 2022. Brian Koberger, douche canoe douche lord of the world, also a criminology PhD student who was living just a few miles away, was ultimately arrested and he pled guilty in 2025 and he got four life sentences without the possibility of parole.

• 2:44Annie Elise?

  That was a part of this plea deal, which still infuriates me to this day, but I digress. He was facing the death penalty, but when he pleaded guilty, that was removed. It was taken off the table. But here's the thing, over three years later now, new information keeps coming out and it's kind of just being talked about in bits and pieces here and there and not in like one singular way, which you know me, you know, I love these big comprehensive videos where you get all the information and it's not like piecemeal. So I really wanted to put it in one place for you. So that's what we're going to do. Today, we are going to be breaking down all the new information coming out. Because in recent weeks, newly released records have now brought forward some of the most gruesome details about the murders themselves,

• 3:28Annie Elise?

  about how the investigators believe the murders unfolded and what the medical findings actually show. And some of that information, I just want to warn you, it is pretty heavy. And at the same time, the victims' families have now taken legal action, filing a lawsuit tied not just to Brian Koberger himself, but to the school that he attended, Washington State University. It has raised serious questions about what may have been known about him, when it was known, and whether anything could have been done differently. Alongside all of this, there have also been a lot of theories popping back up that we were seeing when Brian was first arrested. I mean, theories about a second killer, possibly a sexual motive, a lot of different things.

• 4:12Annie Elise?

  Now, a lot of this obviously is just speculation, but it's being talked about right now in a pretty big way also. And then there's also this whole separate conversation that has also been floating around online, reports and rumors that Brian Koberger could potentially be transferred out of Idaho to another prison system in a different state altogether. Now, officials are pushing back on that, but the fact that it's even being discussed. It has people asking questions because he has been complaining from day one in his prison cell and like, I don't want this skeezy a-hole to get anything that he wants. So today, what I want to do is I want to walk through what's actually new, what's been confirmed by credible sources and what is still being so heavily debated now three

• 4:54Annie Elise?

  years later, all of these years later, and after he already has pled guilty. Because to a lot of people, this case doesn't feel fully settled. So, hey guys, I'm Annie Elise and we are going to jump right in.

• 5:20Annie Elise?

  So let's get into the part of this case that's really responsible for bringing it back into the spotlight right now. And that's the autopsy details and the medical findings that have been coming out now over the last couple of weeks. Because these are things that the public didn't really have access to before. And now that they're out there, they are giving people a much clearer, much honest, darker picture of what happened inside that house. According to reports, based on these unsealed documents and the unsealed autopsies, the four victims suffered more than 150 stab wounds. That's combined between all four of them during this horrific attack that, remember, just happened within minutes. And when you break down the 150 stab wound number, it is very staggering. Xana, she

• 6:05Annie Elise?

  had the highest number with about 67 stab wounds. We know that she fought back. We heard early on that some of her fingers were almost completely severed from fighting back, but still, I mean, 67 stab wounds. Kaylee Goncalves had around 38 stab wounds. Maddie Mogen, about 28. And Ethan Chapin had about 17 stab wounds, based on these autopsy summaries. And look, it's not just about how many times these young adults were stabbed, it was also about where. Because across all four of these victims, the injuries, they weren't random. They were concentrated in some of the most vulnerable areas of the body. See, all four victims- Suffered severe injuries to the upper body,

• 6:49Annie Elise?

  specifically the head, face, neck, chest, and scalp. Now, these weren't just defensive wounds to arms or hands. Many of these injuries were to the areas that are immediately life threatening. And that's why the investigators have consistently described this attack as extremely violent and also targeted. Which, think about that. And I'm not going to go into the exact amount, but I would say around 50% if not more of the stab wounds to each victim was focused on the face, neck, and scalp. Now, in Kaylee's case specifically, the autopsy report actually said that she had at least 24 stab wounds to that area, then 11 to her chest and three stab wounds to her arms.

• 7:32Annie Elise?

  As we know, she also had blunt force trauma to her head as well. Now, based on those findings, experts said that her injuries were so severe and severe enough that she was or could have been classified as disfigured. That detail has come up over and over again, too, because it's unusual, even in stabbing cases. And it suggests a level of force way beyond what would actually be needed to incapacitate someone, to disfigure them. You know, it's next level. Maddie also suffered multiple sharp force injuries to her upper torso and her neck area. The report says that she suffered approximately 13 wounds to her scalp, face, and neck area, five to her chest, and 10 to her arms. Now, in Maddie's case, there were also wounds to the lungs,

• 8:16Annie Elise?

  liver, chest wall, and some major veins and arteries. Investigators have said that her wounds were consistent with a very sudden, very fatal attack while she was in bed. So, we can only hope that it was quick enough, that she wasn't suffering, that she didn't know exactly what was going on the whole time, and that it was just fast and as painless as possible. But this is also where I have to just pause for a second, because this next detail, it's terrifying and it's also kind of confusing, but it is raising a lot of questions recently. According to a defense expert, Maddie and Kaylee's bodies may have been moved, posed, or staged.

• 8:56Annie Elise?

  They were killed. This defense expert pointed out that when Matty and Kaylee were found, they were lying together in the same bed, which is fine, but that they were partially covered by a comforter. They also indicate that Kaylee's head was moved from being on the pillow to being on top of Matty. So based on that positioning, the expert suggested that it was possible that one or both of them had been adjusted or repositioned after this attack, or that maybe the bedding had been pulled up on top of them afterward to hide what had happened or, you know, conceal it some way.

• 9:29Speaker 06

  There was talk from one of the experts that was potentially going to be called in this case, that there might be evidence to suggest that Kaylee and Matty's bodies were posed after they were killed. Do you think there's anything to support that?

• 9:43Speaker 07

  Well, I think that one of the subjects, and I can't remember, forgive me, the name is escaping me, which one, but a head had been moved off of a pillow and then on to essentially the surface of another body. And that would be glaringly obvious.

• 10:00Speaker 06

  It was Kaylee onto Matty, but yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 07

  Right, so Kaylee onto Matty, and Kaylee's head, according to this expert, was actually resting on the pillow. And I can get into all of the technicalities here. And just very briefly, the way you try to understand that hair in particular that is super saturated with blood, if you think about, if you think about a dirty mop string, and this is the way we kind of describe it to our students, it leaves behind almost this kind of spaghetti pattern behind it. You would have lifted the head off of that and then placed it on to another surface. And that's indicative of the movement that they're talking about.

• 10:41Speaker 07

  I can only imagine, again, I have not seen this, but I can only imagine that that's the conclusion this individual drew. Now, there's also an indication that The bodies, plural, had been covered with a comforter. And again, you know, we don't know if faces were concealed. There's a thing that we call in death investigation called face covering, where if you have recognition of somebody, it's a way to, you know, kind of block them out so you don't have to look. You know, because as humans, we identify with one another this way, which is an interesting, interesting insight into the interior of this home.

• 11:24Annie Elise?

  However, prosecutors have pushed back on this pretty firmly, and here's why. They said that, of course, being found together in bed, even under bedding, does not automatically mean that somebody intentionally posed these bodies, but that in violent scenes like this one, bodies can end up in positions that do look deliberate, even if they're not. That people can collapse together, that bedding can shift during an attack, and that blankets can move as a result of movement in the room, or even during first responder access. But still, the reason that this keeps coming up is because the defense didn't have to point that detail out. It wouldn't have been advantageous for the defense to point that out, if I'm being honest. But then, once they did, I mean, it introduced a whole new set of questions about what happened in those final moments.

• 12:10Annie Elise?

  Even though prosecutors rejected the interpretation of this, the idea itself stuck. And it's one of the details that a lot of people just can't quite shake. And I have to say, too, it's kind of wild that it came from the defense's side. Because once that document came out showing that a defense expert suggested that the bodies may have been posed, a lot of people immediately kind of have like this, oh shit moment, right? I mean, granted, there was no trial, and the testimony was never given in court, but you can imagine the way that it could have backfired if it was said in front of a jury. Now, let's talk about Xana's injuries for a moment, because her injuries were very different from the other three victims. Her wounds were spread across her entire body, including her chest, upper body, other extremities.

• 12:54Annie Elise?

  However, her autopsy says that she also suffered significant wounds to her head and face. The number and area... areas of her injuries are in part why investigators do believe that she was awake and she was moving and fighting back during this attack rather than being attacked while asleep like Maddie and Kaylee. According to her autopsy, Xana had 23 stab wounds to her face, scalp, and neck, seven to her chest, four to her abdomen, and three cuts and stab wounds on her back. She also had five on her legs and at least 25 cuts to her arms. Now, those cuts, most of those wounds actually in general, not just the cuts on her arms, were defensive wounds. And we also know based on the findings that Xana fought back hard.

• 13:38Annie Elise?

  And Ethan, while he had much fewer wounds overall compared to the others, he still suffered fatal sharp force injuries to critical areas of his body, including, too, his face, scalp, and chest and neck. He suffered 17 wounds in total, the balance being to his arms and to his legs. Now, what really stands out to investigators and to medical experts isn't just the fact that there were head and facial injuries, or even how many there were, but it's how consistent those injury locations were across four different victims. Severe wounds to the head, neck, and face, I mean, it often suggests close-range attacks, right? Focused on disabling somebody immediately rather than just random or panicked strikes and motions.

• 14:23Annie Elise?

  So that's why these injuries keep coming back up now that this has been unsealed and why people are talking about the discussions about his method. And there's also a lot of arguments about weapons and in broader conversations about what this attack actually looked like inside that house. The medical findings don't answer every question, of course, but they do show a level of violence and intensity that continues to raise new questions even years later. And that kind of brings us a little bit back again to Kaylee's injuries, because like I said earlier, her autopsy is the one that keeps getting revisited, not just because of how many injuries she had, but because of the type of injuries she had. Because according to the autopsy, Kaylee didn't just have stab wounds.

• 15:06Annie Elise?

  Yeah, she did have multiple sharp force injuries, but she also had blunt force trauma. To her head and face. So now you've got two different kinds of trauma showing up in the same set of injuries. And that really is what has gotten people talking. Like we talked about a minute ago, a lot of Kaylee's wounds were concentrated around her face, scalp, and neck. And some of those injuries were severe enough to be described as disfiguring, which that's not language that gets used lightly in autopsy discussions. Truly, it's not. And it's part of why defense experts really zeroed in on her case in particular. So the defense argument was basically this. When you see sharp force injuries and blunt force trauma together, it opens the door to questions about whether more than one

• 15:50Annie Elise?

  type of force, or even more than one type of weapon could have been involved. Now, they weren't saying that this definitively proved anything, but they were saying that the injury patterns certainly didn't rule it out. Kaylee's dad, Steve Gonzalez, also had said after Brian Koberger's sentencing last year, that he was told that there may have been a second weapon used against Kaylee, but they didn't know what it was. Some people, on the other hand, are pushing back pretty hard on that, too, saying, you know, the blunt force injuries can happen because of forceful contact, strikes with hands, even someone's head being slammed into a hard surface during the attack. In their view, these injuries wouldn't require a separate weapon at all. But early on, too, one of

• 16:32Annie Elise?

  the things that people thought was that Brian had worn, you know, those tactical gloves, where it's a hard shell on the outside, and that that's what could have caused these injuries.

• 16:40Speaker 07

  You've got these, uh, uh, just horrific injuries that are to Xana's body. Uh, she stabbed on multiple planes of her body, by the way, with a K-bar knife, which is, in fact, a, um, a combat knife that's been used by our brave Marines since World War II. All right. And this thing can be used not just for the purposes of stabbing, slicing, but also pummeling people. You can actually turn this thing around on the butt of it, and it makes one hell of a hammer. Uh, this thing weighs almost a pound. The blade is just over seven inches.

• 17:21Speaker 07

  And length that's wide and it is meant to kill people with. You know, we've recently had the the Reiner case. I think maybe a kitchen knife was used in that. It certainly doesn't marry up to what you're talking about with a cable.

• 17:39Speaker 06

  So just to be clear, that would explain why you could have different impacts of on Kaylee, right? Blunt force.

• 17:45Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:46Annie Elise?

  But the truth is, without a full trial where medical experts are actually weighing in and questioned in front of a jury, these disagreements are playing out through speculation and media interpretation instead. So when you hear these people just talking online, you know, about this second weapon, it's not something that came out of thin air, but it's also not something that the investigators have ever quite truly confirmed. But I mean, could there have been a second weapon? Absolutely. We haven't even found the first one. We don't even know truly what Brian Koberger actually did inside that house because he's never given a full confession. He's only admitted guilt when he took that plea deal. So we don't know what truly happened. Which, speaking of Brian Koberger admitting guilt, there's another theory that has surfaced

• 18:30Annie Elise?

  again since all of this information has come out. And that is the second killer theory.

• 18:35Speaker 08

  Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

• 19:05Annie Elise?

  Now, law enforcement has consistently, consistently maintained that they believe that one person acted alone, Brian Kober. And they also say that that position has not changed. But in a recent unsealed filing, the defense's forensic expert, Dr. Brent Tarvey, basically said that the medical evidence and some other details involved make it seem like two attackers were involved in this crime, not just one. He claimed that the use of multiple weapons, different kinds of force, and the timeline inside the house, that it could signal at least two suspects. He said that it would have been difficult for a single person to pull all of this off in the window that the investigators believe the attack occurred. And I mean, as you can imagine, once that idea hit the public,

• 19:49Annie Elise?

  people online took it and ran with it. I mean, on Reddit, for example, there are tons and tons of threads pushing alternate perpetrator ideas with people saying things like, you know, this should have been allowed as evidence, saying that the defense should have brought up the alternate perpetrator theories during court proceedings, which, if you remember, rewinding it back a little bit, the defense did try to do that, but they were shot down. And that all happened very shortly before Brian Koberger took his plea deal. But now that we know that they actually had experts that were prepared to testify on this to try to prove it, everyone is talking about it. And all of that gets even messier with no full trial. Well, you know, a trial where these questions could have been hashed out in front of a jury, people could get more information because

• 20:33Annie Elise?

  now a lot of this is still being argued in filings, online, in public forums, in these public settings where people are just like, you know, duking it out. I mean, it's pretty wild in the streets right now online when it comes to this case because so many people believe not only that there was a second perpetrator, but that Brian is innocent, which then is he not even one of the two perpetrators? Why would he have taken a plea deal? How does that make sense? I don't know. I could talk for hours about that, but let's move on. Now that we've walked through the injuries and some of the unusual patterns in this case, I want to talk about the one question that everybody is still asking. Why did this happen? What was the motive? And the frustrating part is the motive in this case is still officially unknown, and we may never know it. That's the truth. Prosecutors

• 21:17Annie Elise?

  have said over and over that investigators never found a clear reason. No documented relationship between Brian Koberger and the victim. No personal connection, nothing that definitively explains why these four students were targeted. Brian Koberger's plea hearing, the Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, flat out said there was no evidence of a sexual component, no evidence of a sexual assault, an attempted sexual assault, nothing tied to these murders. And yet, the idea of a sexual motive, it just keeps coming back. Some of that also comes from the families themselves. Kaylee's dad has publicly said that he believes that there was a sexual angle here.

• 21:58Annie Elise?

  He talked about information, he says too, that he was told by people close to the investigation, including claims that Brian Koberger had what he described as, quote, "weird porn fetishes", with terms like drunk, passed out, gagging girls. And we saw some of this come out, when was it, several months ago, when some of the documents started being unsealed, where he was searching things about like having sex with girls while they were passed out, incoherent, couldn't consent, things like that. And Steve has said that he connects that to what he believes he sees in the crime scene and the injury patterns. And he has been very open to about disagreeing with how prosecutors have framed the motive in this case. Now, that is his interpretation, based on what he says and what he was told,

• 22:43Annie Elise?

  and it also does directly conflict with the prosecutor's public statements. So it's something that people will hear, they will sit with, but it's also not something that has ever been backed up with evidence in court. Now, another place that this idea has surfaced is in recent media coverage since all of this new information has come out. There was recently a forensic analyst that said that this case could be interpreted as having a, quote, "sexual dimension", before fear then took over. That maybe Koberger went in there having some kind of sexual motive, running on adrenaline, but then when the situation wasn't what he expected, he went into adrenaline overdrive, or something like that. And that's how everything transpired.

• 23:25Annie Elise?

  Which, based on what we know, either Maddie or Kaylee are believed to be the original target. So the question becomes, did he go into that room with that sex? But then see that there was another girl there, perhaps Kaylee, that he didn't expect to be there. And that's when he got furious and enraged and decided to kill them because, you know, she was in his way of his plan. That's what a lot of the debate and the conversation is centered around when it comes to the motive theory. But regardless, this forensic analyst's point wasn't that this was the proven motive. It was more that based on certain behaviors and certain parts of the evidence, he believes a sexual motive is one of these several possibilities.

• 24:07Annie Elise?

  Something that just can't be completely ruled out when trying to understand what caused Brian Koberger to attack these four victims. And all of this also directly feeds into why motive in this case has become such a huge part of the conversation. The why. And honestly, the fact that so many different angles keep getting floated, it tells you exactly why people are still digging years later, right? They want to know, they want answers. There never was a trial to get these answers. And now into this next part, I think that we have mentioned before on headline highlights a little bit about this, but it's been getting a lot more serious recently. But the lawsuits that the victims' families have now filed and who they're pointing the finger at does start to shed some light. Because at this point, this isn't just about Brian Koberger anymore.

• 24:52Annie Elise?

  This is about whether there were missed warning signs and whether the system around him failed in a way that ultimately had deadly consequences. The family of some of the victims have now filed a civil lawsuit against WSU, the school that Koberger was attending as a criminology student for his PhD program at the time of the murders. And the core argument that they're making is that the university knew, or should have known, that Brian was exhibiting very troubling behavior, but that they didn't do enough about it. According to the lawsuit, there were complaints, concerns raised by faculty, reports made that Koberger was making people uncomfortable, especially women, a lot of different things. So the families argue that these weren't isolated incidents

• 25:36Annie Elise?

  and that there were plenty of opportunities to step in and these opportunities were dismissed. They're essentially saying that if concerns had been taken more seriously, escalated properly, or addressed earlier, that there's a chance that this tragedy could have been prevented. And that is a very heavy accusation, but one that many people agree with.

• 25:56Speaker 09

  Washington State University, where convicted murderer Brian Koberger attended college, is now facing litigation of its own from the families of the Idaho students who were brutally killed at the hands of Koberger. The murder victims, 21-year-olds Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen, as well as 20-year-old Xana Kernodl and Ethan Chapin's families, are all suing Washington State for gross negligence and wrongful death in a lawsuit made public January 7. In a complaint obtained by multiple outlets, the families accuse WSU of violating Title IX, the federal law that prohibits sex-based discrimination at public universities, saying

• 26:36Speaker 09

  the school and faculty remained "idle in the face of known extreme and repeated instances of discrimination, sexual harassment, and stalking by Koberger occurring in its educational program." Adding that Koberger, who was a PhD student and a teaching assistant in the school's Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology before the murders, had "developed a reputation for discriminatory harassing and stalking behavior." The complaint also argues the school's alleged lack of action against the convicted killer "ultimately culminated in Koberger stalking and murdering the decedents."

• 27:12Annie Elise?

  Lawsuit also makes it a point to state that Brian Koberger was studying criminology, literally learning about criminal behavior while allegedly displaying behavior that not only raised red flags but could potentially be considered criminal itself. The families argue that this made the situation even more concerning, not less. Now WSU has pushed back, saying they followed policy, that they couldn't have predicted what Koberger would have done, what he wasn't going to do, and that the murders were not foreseeable based on the information that they had at the time. In other words, they're saying that this, yes, was a horrific crime, but not one that they could have prevented or one that they can be held responsible for. But still, the families are not backing down. And for them, this lawsuit isn't just about money.

• 27:56Annie Elise?

  It's about accountability. It's about forcing major institutions to take complaints seriously, to act earlier, and to prevent something like this from ever- Happening again. And truthfully, when you like zoom out of all of it, this lawsuit fits right into the bigger theme of this case. Unanswered questions, pieces that never fully came out in court. And a lot of people left wondering how somebody like this, Brian Koberger, how he was able to fly under the radar for as long as he did. And there's another thing that I want to touch on here, too, because I keep seeing questions about this. And there's been a lot of back and forth from both sides on this. It's about the prison system and the media and the inside sources and all of that. And that's the prison transfer discussion.

• 28:40Annie Elise?

  Over the past few weeks, there has been a lot of chatter online about whether Brian Koberger could be moved out of Idaho and then transferred to another prison in another state. And anytime you hear something like that, people immediately jump to, you know, why, when, what does that mean? So here's what we actually know about it. Okay? Right now, Brian Koberger is being held within the Idaho Department of Correction. And officials have publicly stated that there is no confirmed transfer in place. That part is very important. There has been no official announcement that he is being moved, no paperwork released, nothing showing a transfer order, nothing like that. However, that said, the idea of him being transferred, it didn't come out of thin air either. In cases involving inmates who are deemed high profile

• 29:25Annie Elise?

  or serving multiple life sentences or even considered a security concern, states sometimes do explore out of state housing options. That can be for a multitude of reasons. Safety reasons, staffing issues, to reduce attention on a particular facility. It's not unusual, but it's also not automatic.

• 29:44Speaker 10

  Chris, good to see you. Um, all right. What, what are you hearing? Um, and, um, what's your, what do you have to tell us? In terms of Koberger potentially moving?

• 29:57Speaker 11

  Yeah. So, good morning, Ted. Um, so I have a reliable source inside the prison system that has shared with me that IDOC is currently considering possibly transferring him to another facility via an interstate pact agreement, which basically is an MOU.

• 30:16Speaker 11

  Between prisons to, you know, house other inmates. You know, this is already going on through IDOC, where they house hundreds of other inmates out of state, primarily in Arizona, Texas, and Colorado. So this is not unusual for these types of conversations to be taking place.

• 30:37Speaker 10

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 30:38Speaker 11

  The main driver.

• 30:39Speaker 10

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One example is Richard Allen, the Delphi killer out of Indiana. He's now in Oklahoma. What does, yeah, I guess you were just getting to that. What does motivate an institution to say, you know what? Let's dump this guy.

• 30:59Speaker 11

  Well, in this particular conversation that I've been made aware of, it's primarily because of overcrowding and the fact that he's such a high maintenance, right? The capacity was designed, or the IDOC prison was designed for about 8,000 inmates. And currently, they're carrying about 10,000, and they're also short-staffed. So this is the overcrowding conversation, which is the key factor. I believe that would probably be considering this type of a move.

• 31:32Speaker 10

  And for the institution, having someone like him does take more resources just because of the nature of his high-profile crimes and the fact that he's a target. They basically have to protect him, which is ironic, but true.

• 31:51Speaker 11

  Yeah, exactly, Ted. And, you know, my source indicates that, you know, they're aggressively pursuing this. However, ultimately, it is up to the facility. And they also have to get another facility to agree to accept him. Based on what you just said, he is such a high-risk inmate. Do they put him, you know, from one problem to the next in another facility?

• 32:15Annie Elise?

  So officials have pushed back on claims that a transfer is happening, saying that, you know, housing decisions are internal and rumors online are actually getting ahead of any actual facts. In other words, people are speculating before anything has actually happened. And even if a transfer did happen someday, it wouldn't change Brian Koberger's sentence. It wouldn't affect the plea deal at all. It wouldn't reopen the case. It would simply mean that he's serving his four life sentences somewhere else and not in Idaho. Although for me, that kind of bums me out because I know how much he hates the facility he's in and I would very much like him to stay there personally. So for right now, that's very much just like a something to watch, not something to run with type of situation. It's being talked about because this case never really stops being talked about,

• 32:59Annie Elise?

  if we're being honest, not necessarily being talked about because there's like a major change that has been confirmed. And that all kind of honestly brings us full circle. I mean, between the newly released medical details, the debates over motive and method, the lawsuits from the families, and now even prison logistics becoming a topic of conversation, this case still feels unfinished to a lot of people, even though legally it has been resolved. But at the end of the day, I understand why. Four young lives were lost, their families, they're still fighting for answers, for accountability, yet years later, here we are, still uncovering pieces that never fully came out in the open, questions that never fully got answered.

• 33:41Annie Elise?

  And I don't think that this case will ever stop being talked about until those answers are out there, if they ever are out there. I mean, look at John Benet, for example. I know it's a little bit different, but like, that's a case everybody continues to talk about, continues to speculate on, because we never got the resolution, we never got the answers. I think this might be one of those cases where we just may never know, because I don't think that Koberger himself is ever going to talk. So I don't know. We will see. I'm curious to know what you guys think about all of this. Do you think it definitively proves one way or another if there is a second murderer? If there is concrete motive, what it means by where the injuries were mostly inflicted on each victim? What does it mean? Does it mean anything?

• 34:23Annie Elise?

  Or was it just a frenzied attack, a panicked attack, a lot of adrenaline, and he was going for where he knew that he would be able to incapacitate them the quickest? Possibly? I don't know. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget, subscribe before you head out so that you don't miss any more of these new episodes or these little bonus episodes that I drop, and I'll make sure to keep you updated. All right, until the next one. Stay safe. Bye.

• 34:50Speaker 12

  Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman, where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love, like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.

• 35:25Speaker 13

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