#2372 - Garry Nolan

Garry Nolan, PhD, is an immunologist and professor at Stanford University School of Medicine. He is also a business executive and Executive Director of the Board of the Sol Foundation, a research and advocacy center focused on UAP studies. www.thesolfoundation.org Hunt with confidence using onX Hunt. Start your free trial today at: https://huntsmarter.smart.link/srwbpznr2 This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Very nice to meet you, sir.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you as well.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for doing this, I really appreciate it. Tell everybody what you do. Tell everybody what your official position is. You're a professor at the School of Medicine at Stanford. What do you do?

• 0:25Speaker 01

  So, my day job is in cancer research and cancer biology, mostly immunology and cancer. Much of what my laboratory does is not so much the biology of cancer, but developing instruments that create the data that allow us to analyze the complexities of how the immune system interfaces with tumors, and how tumors basically re-enable the immune system to help the cancer itself. So, the problem's been, we don't have the ability to collect enough data, or not until recently, to collect and understand what all of that means. So, we've been kind of poking in the dark for decades, and so probably for the last

• 1:07Speaker 01

  20 years, I've developed a number of instruments and turned them into companies that allow everybody to access a level of information they couldn't get before.

• 1:16Joe Rogan?

  So, explain that. The immune system allows the tumors?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  So, what happens is that there's sort of a, there's a dance between the mutations that initiate a tumor, and then sort of an evolution of how the tumor eventually learns how to trick the immune system to not recognize it. So, we have all kinds of, I mean, literally every day, every person, you'll develop five cancer-like objects inside of your body, but the immune system and your body has a way of shutting it down very quickly. But with enough time and with enough variation, tumors will eventually evolve in a way that trick the immune system not only into not recognizing them, but in fact to help them

• 2:06Speaker 01

  and feed them, in a way, to create an inflammatory environment that actually then the tumor uses to propagate its own cell division and then metastasis.

• 2:15Joe Rogan?

  So, it's a normal function of natural human biology to create tumors?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  It's not so much a normal function, it's a byproduct of what evolution is, that when the genes mutate when a cell divides, or if you go out and, you know, stand in the sun too much, for instance, you get skin cancers because you're getting ionizing radiation that's changing the DNA, making a mutation, and some of those random mutations will initiate a cancer. So for instance, I have a mutation called MITFE318K. It's a mutation that I was born with, it wasn't in my family, and it causes both melanoma and kidney cancer, which I've had both, I've had a dozen melanomas alone. You know, we didn't find that out until a couple of years ago, but I've been following it over the

• 3:05Speaker 01

  years, and we basically figured out, okay, it's going to have to be this, so we had my genome sequenced. But that's just one of hundreds of different kinds of mutations that can occur that are on a path towards creating a cancer. But the cancer can't survive if the immune system recognizes it. So eventually what happens is there's this détente that is reached between the immune system and the cancer, where the immune system basically ignores the cancer. So Jim Allison, here in Houston, won the Nobel Prize back in 2018 for understanding one of these turn-off signals that the cancer is used to turn off the immune

• 3:48Speaker 01

  system, and that by showing he could block it, his wife Pam Sharma ran a bunch of clinical trials at MD Anderson that showed, in fact, that this could actually turn a 5% survival disease in melanoma to a 50% survival. And that then created the whole immunotherapy field that the world is taking advantage of today. Wow. So...

• 4:12Joe Rogan?

  So what is, what is cancer actually doing? Like, how, how did it, how do tumors develop this ability to trick the immune system? Is this something that other animals have?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:23Joe Rogan?

  So it's a constant?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  It's a constant battle. So, so, so for instance, there, there are proteins on your cell's surface, and we'll get too immunologically deep about it. They're called major histocompatibility complex proteins. So for instance, if I were to try to just randomly do a tissue transplant from me to you, it's very likely that it would be rejected. And it's because of those MHC proteins that it's rejected. What's happening is that your cells are presenting your internal cell biology to the immune system, and it's saying, okay, you're, you're a friend, not a foe. So when cancer usually initiates, there are disruptions that happen, and proteins are made incorrectly, et cetera.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  And so what these MHC proteins are doing, in some cases, is they're presenting the internal damage to the body, and the body's saying, oh, there's something wrong with this cell, we better wipe it out, we kill it. These same proteins are what the immune system uses, for instance, to go after viruses. So when you get a virus infection inside of the cell, the body has a way of chopping those proteins up inside of the cell, presenting it via MHC, and then the immune system attacks it. So what, one of the first things that actually tumors do is they learn to turn off the MHC proteins inside of themselves. So the ability to show that I'm damaged is shut down. And so the immune system doesn't go on full alert for that.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  But then there are other mutations, like divide when you're not supposed to, you know, avoid this kind of induced cell death called apoptosis, and not others. And so it, cancer doesn't just like start, and then the next day, you've got it. It's a progression of events. You have these precancerous lesions, you have like a benign tumor, which eventually becomes a metastatic tumor. And so the, but the immune system is key at every stage of the development because if you can reactivate the immune system in just the right way, then you can prevent the cancer from basically spreading, or from metastasizing, or from killing you, essentially.

• 6:34Joe Rogan?

  Is there a potential for, given the understanding of this, is there a potential for using this for organ transplant patients where locally would stop recognizing this as a foreign organ?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly what, that's exactly what is done. In fact, you, when you get a tissue transplant, or an organ transplant, you're suppressing the immune system. The problem with that suppression is that you then put yourself at risk of cancer, because what you're doing is you're turning off the immune system's ability to combat and go after a cancer the moment it forms. So, most people who are under immune suppression are at risk both of, let's say, virus infections, bacterial infections, but also for the cancers.

• 7:21Joe Rogan?

  So, would the, the potential be to turn that off locally, so you could turn that off to this, on the specific organ?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  That would be a great thing to do if we could. Right now, the only things that we have are systemic. So, yeah, I mean, for instance, if you could deliver to the organ that you're transplanting, anti-immuno, you know, basically immunosuppressives locally, that would be great. We don't have that yet. But that would be via a form of gene therapy.

• 7:50Joe Rogan?

  But the problem would that be, that if you, like, let's say you had a lung transplant?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:55Joe Rogan?

  If you had a lung infection, it would be catastrophic.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Do you want to come work in my lab?

• 7:58Joe Rogan?

  (laughing)

• 7:59Speaker 01

  You're, you're, you're accepted as a graduate student in the Stanford Department of Pathology.

• 8:04Joe Rogan?

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• 8:48Joe Rogan?

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• 9:32Joe Rogan?

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• 10:16Joe Rogan?

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• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:47Joe Rogan?

  And it's, you know, it's very disturbing knowing that they're so vulnerable to any kind of infection because of these medications that they have to take in order for their body to accept the transplant.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  One of the problems is that there are literally hundreds of different types of immune cells. And, you know, really until recently, and frankly, until a technology my lab developed about over a dozen years ago, we couldn't look at all of the immune cell types all at once in a single picture. So I came from a laboratory, Lennon Lee Hersenberg, when I was a grad student at Stanford, and they had developed an instrument called the fluorescence-activated cell sorter. And that allowed you to look at three proteins at a time, and if you could know ahead of time what the cell types were that expressed the proteins that you're interested in, you could look at just those three cell types. Then I came up with a way to look at, you know, 50 or 60 proteins at a time, sort of

• 11:42Speaker 01

  stepping up what they had already taught me how to do. And then suddenly, that gave us the ability to look at nearly every cell type in the body, in immune cell types, and then that gave us the, let's say, the raw data to build math- mathematical models that we could do better predictions of what outcomes would be.

• 12:01Joe Rogan?

  And how is that, like, how are you, what are you applying in terms of, like, real-world scenarios? How are you applying this?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Well, so for instance, there's a kind of leukemia called AML, acute myelogenous leukemia. It starts in the bone marrow. And it is a distorted version of a myeloid cell type. It starts as a stem cell, and that stem cell goes down a number of different paths. And depending upon the person, the disease is sufficiently different that it might follow a slightly different path towards what becomes the disease itself. And so being able to trace the path and to know which steps along the way that it takes

• 12:46Speaker 01

  to become what becomes then the metastatic leukemia could only be accomplished by having enough markers that allowed us to trace everybody along the path. It's kind of like, if I wanted to follow you from who you are as an egg through development, through to who you are today, and I had snapshots every month.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  I need different markers to measure what you are as an egg versus what you are as a baby versus what you are as an adult. And so each of those different markers in my world would be different proteins that tell me something about an adult leukemia versus a baby leukemia. And then we use something called pseudotime, which is a mathematical concept that allows us to stitch together those photographs. I could take a random box of photos of you from an egg to who you are today, and I could just by hand put together the most likely path and sequence of what you were from the earliest to the latest. But we needed the data and we needed the means and the instruments to collect that information so that then the math could come to play.

• 13:53Joe Rogan?

  That's such a fascinating thing about human beings is the biological variability, is that everybody is, we're so the same.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:03Joe Rogan?

  Two lungs, a heart, but so different in how our body reacts to things and what happens to us and environmental factors, diet.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:15Joe Rogan?

  Stress, all sorts of different factors. And you're kind of piecing together this puzzle.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:23Joe Rogan?

  Of all these things.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And, but what you're doing is you still have to pay homage to the fact that those differences exist. And so while, you know, the, my cancer might be the same class of, let's say melanoma as another person's, the complexity of what allowed that cancer to become are so different that the drugs that would work for me might not work for another person.

• 14:47Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  And so that's what basically requires us to personalize the medications in a way that gives the right drug to the right person. So I've started probably half a dozen companies and sold them, places like Roche, et cetera. Actually, my most recent company we sold to 10x Genomics, which enabled us, enables them now, because of a patent I created back in 2011, to scale up the amount of information that we can collect at a time, that then when layered on top of what, for instance, 10x Genomics already did, which is doing what's called single cell genomic analysis, we could scale that up 100-fold to get 100-fold amount the information.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  But the problem with that is that I can collect all that data and make an analysis of a cancer for you, but it might be a little bit different than another person. So what we have to do then is develop techniques that allow us to narrow in on what the differences might be, so that when I develop a drug for person X, it works for person X and not for person Y, right, the right way. So there's a lot of personalization in medicine that is required. The diversity that makes humanity great and that makes humanity able to survive in the face of so many challenges is that there are individual differences that one person

• 16:17Speaker 01

  might survive and another won't. It's the same thing with cancers. And it's the same thing with drugs. I mean, you know, for instance, with certain drugs, one of the first things I learned in pharmacology when I was, you know, way back in the day, is that there's always a benefit to damage ratio that you're having to deal with, that a drug has a positive outcome, but there are side effects. And so as scientists or as clinicians, we make a choice based on the statistics. Who will benefit the most? And will it benefit the most? But by the way, there's all these side effects that might affect you. And, you know, overall, globally, 60% of people will survive.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  But since I don't know anything more about your specific disease, I am by law required to give you the 60% drug, until I know or can distinguish that your disease is a different subclass than the 60%. And that's, in fact, a lot of what pharmaceutical companies are doing, is they're trying to marry a diagnostic to the disease itself, the disease subtype itself, so that if you can show that 90% of the people of this kind of subclass will survive...

• 17:34Speaker 01

  You have to, by law, choose that diagnostic to make sure that the person doesn't have the subclass before you give them the 60% drug. Does that make sense?

• 17:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yeah, it does. The narrative has always been, over the, you know, last few decades, stay out of the sun. But recently, people have started saying, no, it's actually, you need to become accustomed to the sun, and the real issue is people using sunscreen all the time and then going out and getting burned. Obviously, your situation's very different. Because you, you have a specific gene.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And I'm Irish.

• 18:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's the problem, right? The genes of the people that lived in cloudy-ass places for hundreds of thousands of years.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And my mother, when we were kids, I mean, I'm 64 years old, so when I was a kid, you know, we'd go to the beach in Connecticut and they'd smother me in, in, you know, coconut oil.

• 18:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, baby oil when I was a kid. Everybody had baby oil, and everybody got barbecued.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Plus, I worked in the, you know, in the fields as a kid for, you know, farm, farm labor.

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  And that's not good.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  That wasn't good.

• 18:40Joe Rogan?

  The burning, that's the real, the damage to the skin, and then it manifests itself as cancer far later in life, right?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Right, right. There's all these subtle, let's call them smoldering mutations, that are waiting for a second or a third hit to occur. Or for, you know, instance, you get old enough so that your immune system is kind of going wonky, and it no longer is able to take care of something that 20 years ago it would've been able to heal.

• 19:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Heal perfectly well.

• 19:08Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. So is there any, this, this narrative that you need to be in the sun more, and that just don't get burned? Is that reality?

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Well, it depends on who, I mean, for someone like me, no. But there are positives, obviously, for the sun. I mean, I mean, vitamin D.

• 19:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  As an example. But there are also, you know, resetting your clock in the morning, rather than taking melatonin at night. Go and just, you know, in a bright, use, use glass to shield out the ultraviolet and get some bright light. It's the UV that's the danger. It's not light.

• 19:44Joe Rogan?

  So for you, you don't, you don't ever just go sit in the sun?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Not anymore. No, but I was-

• 19:50Joe Rogan?

  Because of the melanoma?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Because I was an idiot when I was a kid. I mean, I would go use tanning, tanning beds because I thought, oh, I wanted to look, you know, tan.

• 19:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  And I did tan back then, but, you know, obviously can't anymore.

• 20:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you don't really see those anymore, do you?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  No. You do-

• 20:05Joe Rogan?

  Maybe in like Seattle.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Some people do. Yeah, there's, you know, I mean, I, I think there's, obviously there's a benefit to light. I mean, I'm not saying don't go out and do it. And if, and, you know, I, I think as well, there'll come a day, and I was just talking with some friends of mine at dinner last night, is, you know, maybe with things like CRISPR, I could rub a CRISPR ointment on my body. It would fix the single point mutation in my skin, and then I could enjoy the sun again.

• 20:36Joe Rogan?

  Is that really potentially down the pipe?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I think, oh yeah, no, I think we're-

• 20:40Joe Rogan?

  How far away are we there?

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I think, honestly, I mean, people always say five years is sort of like this horizon. But, no, I really, I mean, I know people who are already developing systems for delivering genes, you know, RNA to cell. I know that's a dirty word in some, but there are formulations of RNA that probably won't be as problematic as some of the things that maybe the COVID vaccine might have done.

• 21:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah. RNA, right now you say and people clench.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, yeah. But, I mean, your, your, your cells are full of RNA. So, I mean, you can't get away from the fact that your cells are full of RNA.

• 21:15Joe Rogan?

  It's just the messenger RNA.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it's also the means by which they delivered it, right? I mean, the, the means by which it was delivered was a formulation of a nucleotide that by itself was meant to be something called an adjuvant. An adjuvant is something which activates the immune system you want. I mean, when you get a vaccination, you are co-injected with something that hyper-activates the immune system to say, come hither.

• 21:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And, and most of the pain that you get from an injection is not the vaccine itself, it's the adjuvant.

• 21:48Joe Rogan?

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• 22:33Joe Rogan?

  The best hunters aren't lucky, they're prepared. This is how you get there. So before your next hunt, get OnX Hunt. Download it today and use the code JRE for 20% off your membership at onxhunt.com. And so the problem with this was that it turned your whole body into like a spike protein factory. Yeah, well, at least locally. Yeah. Yeah, no, I've read some of the, some of the work. But not always locally, right? Because didn't some, they didn't, a lot of, they didn't aspirate with a lot of people? Yeah. Yeah. There were. I don't think they aspirated with anybody. They didn't with the president on TV. But if you, if you get infected by a virus, it's over your whole body anyway.

• 23:17Joe Rogan?

  So it's whether the spike protein itself was problematic. And so, you know, I know I'll annoy somebody one side or the other by saying anything around this area, and I'm not here to cause any controversy. But, you know, your immune system works, but if you can trick your immune system into getting ahead of the game, then that's a good thing. The question is, back to this cost benefit ratio. Is the benefit to the larger statistical population worth it?

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Knowing that some people are going to be hurt by it or not, that's the question. So for instance, you know, back to cancer and vaccines, there's a number of cancer vaccines that are coming down the pike. That for people like me would be, I mean, given that I get something chopped off of me four times a year. Really? Oh, yeah, you should see me. I look like I've been in a war zone. Wow. Some people say, oh, that's hot. And that's the only... They say that's hot. Wow.

• 24:21Joe Rogan?

  Someone's into cutters?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  So, that's so fascinating, but is there another way that could potentially deal with those things, other than cutting them off? Or is that the only way to remove it from your system?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Right now, it has to be cut off.

• 24:37Joe Rogan?

  So, the issue is that once those, the melanoma, once these lesions are on your skin, they will expand?

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Yes. Luckily, most of mine are what are called, have been called surface spreading, although one of mine was what's called a nodle, which basically dives right in. And believe it or not, my dog found it and was sniffing at it on my arm.

• 24:57Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And like, started like scratching at it and it stopped bleeding. You know, I'll show you the scar.

• 25:01Joe Rogan?

  What kind of dog you have?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  He, well, this was 15 years ago. He was a Pomeranian, but you know, you can see the scar there.

• 25:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's crazy.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  And it wouldn't stop bleeding and so, you know, I went in and had it looked at and they said another week and it would have metastasized.

• 25:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Joe Rogan?

  What a great dog.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  He was great, yeah. He was great. But, you know, there are, so for instance, if you can catch most of these cancers early, then that's what's important. So I think probably one of the most important, let's say, changes to our medical system that could be initiated would be frankly, the use of things like MRI, not CT scans, because CT scans are known to cause cancer.

• 25:43Joe Rogan?

  Which is so crazy.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:46Joe Rogan?

  Like, when did we figure that out?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  I mean, there was like a big study just published recently that said, here's what happens to people once CT scans were implemented and you see this sudden spike in the... I mean, again, it's this cost benefit ratio. If you didn't have it, certain people wouldn't have, you know, wouldn't know that they have a giant tumor in there.

• 26:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  I mean, so for instance, I had, when I had kidney cancer, I was actually at a restaurant with friends doing a business deal, actually. And I went to the bathroom and it was blood. And I said, okay, we gotta go to the, you know, we gotta go to the, you know, to the emergency room like now. And then they did a CT scan and they see this, the brachial tree around my kidney was just a big diffuse mess and they came in and said, you've got, you've got cancer.

• 26:33Joe Rogan?

  Did you have to have your kidney removed?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, um, but you know, it's okay, I'm alive.

• 26:40Joe Rogan?

  It's nice to have two of them.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. Um, I'm alive, but, uh, you know, it is, is this early detection is important. I mean, I was lucky that it hadn't metastasized yet. Um, it's called, it was called, uh, clear cell renal cell carcinoma. But, you know, so surveying the body and these companies that are out there right now which do it, I think are really important because even if you are young and you have no suspicion you're gonna have cancer, having that baseline against which you can compare later changes is important because I could do, for instance, a CT scan or an MRI of

• 27:22Speaker 01

  you and I find lots of little anomalies and they're generally in the field called fantomas. There are these objects that, mm, maybe worrisome, but we won't know that they're worrisome and certainly I could do a biopsy of them and, you know, poke a needle into your chest to pick, pick, pick out a piece of it. But if I come back six months and it's changed, then maybe it's something we need to go after, you know, more seriously. So getting those kinds of regular scans, I think, is probably one of the more important things that could be done, but not by a CT scan.

• 27:58Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy, cause we were doing them for so long. Did they, they still do CT scans though, because it's necessary.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  It's necessary for certain things.

• 28:07Joe Rogan?

  Right, which is letting people know this might cause cancer is just like, yikes.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, but maybe, for instance, there'd be a way, um, to treat someone with...

• 28:19Speaker 01

  A drug ahead of time that would minimize the effect of the CT scan.

• 28:24Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Right, so that, you know, because the CT scans are generally causing oxidative damage. And so if you could provide a local antioxidant, and I'm not saying that something like this exists.

• 28:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  It's a bit of a naive statement. But if you could do that locally to the area that's being imaged or to the whole body, then maybe CT scans could be lessened in their problematic outcomes.

• 28:48Joe Rogan?

  I would say innovative and hopeful.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:50Joe Rogan?

  More than would naive.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's naive because you're recognizing the issue.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Right, thank you.

• 28:55Joe Rogan?

  Um, so, how, well, this was also a problem with X-rays, right? Like, X-ray technicians, like, I've seen some of those images of people's hands because the technician used to have to use their own hand to check to make sure that the X-ray was functional.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:10Joe Rogan?

  And then, over the years, they go, hey, what the fuck is wrong with my hand? And then they realize, oh, boy.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because what's, what's happening with X-rays or CT scans is a fast forward of the kind of random damage that causes cancer in the first place. And so because it's random, um, let me kind of go back a little bit as to why does cancer happen in the first place? So let's go way back in evolution to the first time that, that there were single cells versus the first time that two cells met each other and said it was better to, to join forces and cooperate rather than to divide at each other's expense. So in the process of that happening, those two cells came together, or three or four cells, they basically said, together we're better than alone. But there were actually social compacts and contracts that, at the genetic level,

• 30:00Speaker 01

  were being formed between all of these cells. And so as things got more and more complex, uh, more and more complex contracts were formed, to the point at which what could happen is that any one of the breaking of a complex contract could actually then initiate a cascade that becomes cancer. So rather than we thinking of, um, cancer as being a forward progression in evolution, it's actually, another way to think about it is that it's a devolution back to the core fire of the desire to divide. And so by breaking the contracts, by breaking the controls on the system, cancer is allowed to

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Blossom. So the problem is that every tissue type, whether your lung or brain or whatever, has a whole different ecosystem of contracts that have been formed. And so there's no one-size-fits-all drug that will kill off all cancers because the contracts are different. It's not like you can bring in a lawyer and fix, you know, agricultural contracts versus maritime or whatever.

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So that's the, you know, you have to have a flexible enough mindset because if you get stuck in this, it's a forward evolution as opposed to that it's a breaking of contracts, you might miss out on an opportunity for how to develop a therapy or a drug that would help people.

• 31:29Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that I wanted to ask you on, I don't even know if you know anything about this, but is there a connection between IVF and the amount of, because you have to take some pretty extreme hormones, there's a lot of stuff that women have to take. Is there a connection between that and hormonal-related tumors?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know. So I don't want to opine and then have half my colleagues send me emails tomorrow scolding me.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  Okay, good. Well, I'm glad you answered that way. I was told by someone who I really trust that there is. And then we tried to Google it and it said there's not, but that's not surprising.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Probably there hasn't been the right kind of study yet. And if there is not, there should be. I mean, certainly any hormonal imbalance is not a good thing. I mean, you imbalance metabolism of the system and you can, I mean, so for instance, back to my specific disease with mid F, there's all kinds of things like N-acetylcysteine, betaine, all these other drugs that are out there for longevity. Well, if I look into the metabolism of what my cancer is, every single one of those is a disaster for me.

• 32:43Joe Rogan?

  It accelerates.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Not good. Not good.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  So, because there's all these feedback mechanisms.

• 32:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  You know, people often say, you know, scientists are not religious. There's nothing that inspires more awe in me than knowing the complexity of the cell and knowing the complexity of life.

• 33:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  And seeing all this feedback and mechanism and knowing that underneath that is a universe with particles, et cetera, that enabled something like us to exist. I just sit in awe of that.

• 33:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, it's awe inspiring, for sure. I mean, anybody who doesn't think it is is not paying attention or they're purposely being ignorant.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, you get a lot of that, though.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, that's okay. You know, teachers are here to hopefully teach and not preach.

• 33:34Joe Rogan?

  Hopefully, yeah. Because of your specific type of cancer and your situation, like, do you have to, like, very closely monitor your diet?

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Um, I probably shouldn't eat as much meat as I do.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  Meat?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:48Joe Rogan?

  Why meat?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Well, because, you know, fats. And a lot of them, the fats dissolve a fair number of toxins. You know, it's not necessarily a good thing. I mean, that's been relatively well shown, that too much meat, as opposed to, I'm not advocating vegetarianism, I think there's a happy medium. And we grew up in an environment where we had both. I mean, we're omnivores. And we succeeded, I think, because we're omnivores as a society, as a, you know, as a civilization. So, but, you know, charred meat, for instance.

• 34:24Joe Rogan?

  That's the issue, though, isn't it?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it burnt?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's carcinogens. I mean, you know, you're making all kinds of, it's a, it's a witch's brew of nastiness that tastes good. But, you know, the reason why it tastes good is because the humans who survived learned to use fire to kill off the bacteria in rotten meat. And so, the flavor of that probably was engineered into our evolution.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  But again, it's a cost benefit.

• 34:54Joe Rogan?

  But didn't the cooking of it also allow us to absorb more protein?

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not sure about that.

• 35:01Joe Rogan?

  I believe so.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Okay, that could be.

• 35:02Joe Rogan?

  I believe that's the case, that the cooking meat actually allows it to be more easily absorbed by the body.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  It could be broken down more readily, but certainly it kills bacteria. So, you know, day-old or three-day-old deer.

• 35:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  You know, that you just killed.

• 35:18Joe Rogan?

  We're not a bear.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Or not, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, yeah, we're not vultures that seem to have digestive systems that can handle all of that.

• 35:26Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Um, so you should eat less meat. What else? Do you avoid sugar, which seems to be a real problem with cancer?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I avoid, yeah, I avoid too much sugar. Yeah, thanks for this, by the way.

• 35:38Joe Rogan?

  Is that sugar-free?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:40Joe Rogan?

  That one's not?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  No, it's okay.

• 35:41Joe Rogan?

  We have sugar-free ones.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  No, because the sugar-free ones have stuff in them that are just as bad as xylitol and all the others.

• 35:47Joe Rogan?

  What about Zevia?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be good.

• 35:50Joe Rogan?

  Is stevia bad for you?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I don't think so, I haven't seen anything on that. But, you know, I mean, look, like I said, I'm 64, it's way too late, and every time that, let's say, scientists make some grand prediction of what's good or bad, five years later, we find and update

• 36:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  what it should have been. I mean, I often say this, and this is, this is true. The goal of science or scientists is to be right today, even wrong today, but right or tomorrow. Because we're always back-checking what the results are and what they mean in the context of a bigger picture.

• 36:22Joe Rogan?

  I like how you say good science, because that's part of the problem, is that ego gets attached to ideas that have already been discussed and published.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:32Joe Rogan?

  And then people are very reluctant to accept new evidence that's contrary to that.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's always, as I often say, you know, in the context of something I know we'll get to later, it's the data off the curve, which is more important than what we already predict. You know, predictions are great, but when there's a data point off the curve, at least in my lab, that's the, where we spend the most time at our lab meetings, is trying to figure out why that data points off the curve. Is it because the machine was wrong? It was a, you know, it was a glitch? Or does it mean something that we need to make sense of? Um, and that's, of course, where all advances come from in the sciences, is by the fact that the data off the curve, somebody was Curious enough about what it meant to go after it and then say, ah, okay, now that I've

• 37:22Speaker 01

  stepped back and see the bigger picture, now I can create a model that incorporates that data point off the curve and why it happened.

• 37:28Joe Rogan?

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• 38:10Joe Rogan?

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• 38:54Joe Rogan?

  One of the reasons why I was really excited to have this conversation with you about the research that you do is that I think it's really important to illuminate to the general public the sheer scope of the task of trying to figure out what is going on in all these different things that can go wrong and right in the human body. And that it requires this fucking insane amount of work.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:20Joe Rogan?

  By many, many, many, many people.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  And, you know, and then the amount of data that had to be collected now. And so here's the difference, is that, you know, there's data, there's evidence, there's conclusions and proof, and that's an uphill climb. But proof, the next one up is meaning. My lab has been largely responsible, at least partly responsible, for the data deluge that's out there in the world, both in how to do tissue biopsy analysis, how to do single cell analysis, et cetera. And, you know, data felt good for a while. It was like this, you know, this feedback loop of, oh, wow, I can get all this data. And then suddenly you look at it and you go, well, what the fuck does it mean?

• 40:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And so humanity has this habit of backing itself into a corner and then suddenly finding this eureka moment that gets it out. And so our eureka moment about two years ago was artificial intelligence, where suddenly I had the ability. So normally I would collect all this data and go, okay, well, it seems myelid suppressor cells are important here and T regulatory cells are impressive here. Okay, I get on the phone or send an email to whoever the local expert is, either on Stanford campus or around the world, and try to get some information from them. But then now you're dealing with hundreds of cell types, each individually of which have thousands of variations themselves. And each subtle variation means something.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  And there's no expert for any of that. But AI can be, at least in part, that expert. So suddenly I have 22 million papers published, you know, in all the fields of science, you know, several tens of millions just in, you know, or several millions just in immunology alone. And AI can be the sleuth for me, can be both the angel and the devil on my shoulder that can make sense of things in ways that I never would have been able to before, especially with agentic AI. So we, for instance, in my lab, have developed an agentic AI that is basically an immunologist scientist in a box. We can give it the raw data

• 41:29Speaker 01

  and we can pose a question in natural language. And then we say, hey, make sense of this and turn it into a network. Normally that would have taken a graduate student along with a couple of post-docs months and months and months to put it all together. Now in three hours, we can get pictures and hypotheses of how all that data fits together in ways that I never could have done before. You know, at the beginning, it did a lot of hallucinations, which you've probably heard about in AI. But my answer to my colleagues is some of my best students hallucinate.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Right? Right. And, and so, but, you know, the human's still in the loop. And so with all of this together, now we can make meaning out of the data. And we can skip a lot of the intermediary steps and speed it up. And it's just getting better. I mean, we, for instance, have put in a couple of papers now where, so for instance, in where my special, one of my recent specialties is what's called the tumor immune interface. So you have the tumor, you have the immune system, which is coalescing on, you know, near, and then in some cases, the tumor creates a boundary, a barrier between itself and the immune system, where there might be certain kinds of cells that the immune

• 42:44Speaker 01

  system, the tumor has told the immune system, ignore us, we're not here. And then, but what we now can do is, there's, well, on the, on the other side of when you look at, let's say, complex patient populations, you find these things called tertiary lymphoid structures. So your body has 220 or so lymph nodes. Okay? And the lymph nodes are where the immune system makes decisions, let's say. It turns out that in the middle of tumors, the body has evolved a mechanism to create what essentially looks like a lymphoid structure in the middle of the tumor.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  It's sort of a forward camp of immune cells, that the more of those you see in a tumor, the better will be your outcome as a patient. And so we used a cohort of colorectal cell, basically colon cancer patients, where we looked at hundreds of biopsies. And we did that pseudotime analysis, where we looked for mature tertiary lymphoid structures. And then we looked for immature, slightly less mature, even more less mature, et cetera. And we were able to backtrack to the cell types which need to come together. That would then form the more mature. What use is that?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  It's a nice paper. But it also now tells us what we might do to create more of these in a tumor. Because the more, we already know from multiple kinds of tumor types now, that the more of these tertiary lymphoid structures you have, the better off will be your outcome with chemotherapy. So it might be, for instance, that, once we know that you have a disease like this, we could give you some kind of therapy, a virus or what have you, that goes and homes to the tumor, seeds the beginnings of these initiators with, there's these cytokines that are produced that are necessary for initiating the formation of these objects. And so there's a huge benefit to that.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  But we never would have found those, in my lab at least, without the AI.

• 44:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Because it basically did the work for us.

• 45:02Joe Rogan?

  That's fascinating.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  Now, are you using like a standard large language model? Or are you, do you have like a specific structure that's built that interfaces with large language?

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Correct. So we use, well, we can use pretty much any of the LLMs, but right now, we find that OpenAI is the best, for us at least. And then we create an agentic overlay. Basically, what's called, you probably know, chain of thought, which is a series of questions. So how we taught it was we basically came up with, here's a, here's a hundred kinds of questions a scientist would ask about the immune system. And then we tell ChatGPT, now create a thousand questions like this. So, you know, it's artificial data or artificial questions. We curate those to make sure that they're good. Then we do a hundred hypotheses,

• 45:56Speaker 01

  and we create thousands of types of hypotheses, et cetera, and the same for tests that you might run. So now, from A to Z, we have an agentic AI that you give it raw data, it knows what to do with the data, it then generates hypotheses for you, and then it literally tells you the kinds of experiments you should do next. To prove or disprove the hypothesis from the raw data.

• 46:24Joe Rogan?

  It's a genius in the lab with you.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:26Joe Rogan?

  Is OpenAI learning from this agentic AI?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:31Joe Rogan?

  So there's a mutually beneficial relationship.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we're not working with them directly on it.

• 46:38Joe Rogan?

  But you use it and because you use it with your AI.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:42Joe Rogan?

  It's benefiting from it.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  And we first thought to turn it into a company, because that's kind of one of the things we do in my lab is if. Because I've always thought that it's important to give back to the taxpayer the money that they've invested in us. And the best way to do that is commercialization. I'm totally, you know, unapologetic about that, even though that got me in a lot of trouble at Stanford in the early days. When, you know, making money was, you know, commercialization was evil.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  And even at Stanford. And so I think that that's an important process because scientists are good at asking maybe the questions and coming up with solutions. But scientists aren't the best at commercializing it and turning it into a product that can be used or testing it. You know, in large communities. So the AI that we developed, we thought, okay, well, maybe we can do this. We thought, you know what? AI is moving so fast. Why don't we just give this to the community? Why don't we open source this? We can use it for maybe specific targeted purposes, but we're basically going to publish the whole thing on GitHub. To let other people use it. Because we've seen other people make claims about stuff that they've already made and it's like, oh, ours is better.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  So why don't we just put it on GitHub and let people learn from it?

• 47:57Joe Rogan?

  The commercial, the resistance to the commercialization, what was the initial argument?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  So back when I was a grad student in the in the eighties. Basic research, as opposed to translational research, was considered the height of intellectual desire. Right? Basic research and and we're not here to make money. We're here to discover things. And that's important. And nearly every major discovery and every major therapy in the world came from basic research.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  But then, you know, there were limits to how much money you could give to basic research and then there was a desire at a certain point to say, hey, well, let's, are you going to do anything about this? Hmm. You know, are you going to make it? So translational research became a push. So this guy at Stanford by the name of Paul Berg, who won the Nobel Prize for gene for recombinant DNA way back in the day. And Paul came up with this concept bed to, you know, bench to bedside, meaning that we don't have to be either or. We can be part of an arc and Stanford wanted to be an enable within the medical school, both the basic research, which we were great at, as well as bringing it directly to the

• 49:16Speaker 01

  patients as well. So to link clinicians and the desires of clinicians with the basic researchers. I mean, most scientists would be happy just to study anything. You know, just point me at something and I'll be happy if I can get interested in it. So, and we're no more happy than when somebody recognizes the value of what we do. Right. But basic research was sort of the height and there was a push against anybody trying to commercialize. So when I started as an assistant professor, so I started as a grad student. I went to MIT to work with this guy, David Baltimore, who won the Nobel for reverse transcript days. And then I wanted to come straight back to Stanford because I already felt that it was

• 50:01Speaker 01

  a positive environment for commercialization. My bosses, my former bosses mentors, Leonard Lee Hersberg, had two of the biggest patents at Stanford. They had the fluorescence activated cell sorter and then what are called humanized antibodies, which brought in hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to Stanford. And actually, they gave personally most of their own money away. They didn't, they made, kept enough to survive, but then they gave most of the money away and they ran the wrong lab off of a lot of that money. But, so I had learned from them about how to still do basic research, but commercialize on the side. And so I wanted to bring that back, but the department that I came into, the Department

• 50:39Speaker 01

  of Pharmacology at the time, I was warned by many professors, don't commercialize that. And I ignored them and I went and started a company that went public on NASDAQ. And many of those same professors came back to me, you know, years later and sitting in my office, asking me how to start a company.

• 50:58Joe Rogan?

  Why did you, was it just a courageous decision to ignore them? Was it instinctual?

• 51:04Speaker 01

  It just was instinctual because I couldn't see the NIH funding what I wanted to do. So I had developed a way, this will sound scary, but I developed a way to use retroviruses and make libraries of retroviruses to reverse the process of evolution in a way that rather than viruses hurting the cell, I set it up so that viruses would help the cell. And once they helped the cell, I would figure out what they did. And so we sold hundreds of millions of dollars of targets that way, using retroviral libraries

• 51:39Speaker 01

  to basically find targets and use some of the benefits of viruses, but to our advantage.

• 51:51Joe Rogan?

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• 52:58Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked

• 53:42Joe Rogan?

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• 54:25Speaker 01

  Well, I had developed in David's lab, along with this guy Warren Pear, a means, it's called the 293T retroviral producer system. It was a way to make large numbers of these viruses very quickly. It really followed on the work of this guy, Richard Mulligan, who'd also been a post-doc with David Baltimore, who developed what was called the 3T3-based retroviral production system. And he developed it in Paul Berg's lab at Stanford. So there's a lot of, sort of, you know, interbreeding here. But the problem with that was it took three months. So I had brought with me a cell line called 293T that I introduced to the lab and said, "Hey, maybe we could use this to make viruses quickly." I won't go into the details of why, but we could do it in three days rather than three

• 55:10Speaker 01

  months. And so that now, I mean, tens of thousands of labs use that worldwide. And it probably generates the most money for me every year over any of my other inventions. Just because Stanford, rather than patenting it, licenses it. And licenses are forever, whereas patents have a seventeen year lifespan. So Stanford made a good choice there.

• 55:32Joe Rogan?

  So do you think it was just a bias, academic bias, like we shouldn't be focusing on money? We should be focusing on the work?

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:39Joe Rogan?

  And they missed the forest for the trees?

• 55:42Speaker 01

  But then people, I mean, they eventually learned. You know, I mean, and it's, I wouldn't say that it's the, it's the way that people think anymore. But it, there's still a little bit of a, I mean, you shouldn't walk into the lab thinking, I'm here to make money.

• 55:56Joe Rogan?

  That's what they're worried about.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:58Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:58Joe Rogan?

  That's, they're worried about the bastardization of it all.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  And so Stanford, in the early days, set up very clear lines about, once you start a company and you license the patent or the idea to the company, you can still be involved with the company. But there's not a pipeline of technology now from your laboratory to that company. So they set up, you know, an oversight board for each of these licenses that makes sure that, you know, the students are not being abused. You know, because you don't want students, you don't want to be, you know, covertly getting your students to do something that then you're going to walk behind a back door and then hand it, hand over to the company.

• 56:41Joe Rogan?

  And patent it, yeah.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  You know, so, you know, there's, but it's, it's so interesting that there's often very much a lot of worry that that's going to happen. But frankly, more often is the case that the company doesn't need the inventor anymore. In fact, I can't tell you the number of times that, once the company's set up, they want nothing more to do with me because they have their own thing to do. They don't want the crazy academic coming in and vetoing their ideas. I mean, there's, there's places for that where people like, you know, Steve Jobs needs to hold on to the, the image of what he wants the company to be. As opposed to, I would probably be fired from a company within a week

• 57:25Speaker 01

  because I just don't like telling people, telling me what to do.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  That's just a fact.

• 57:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Um, so where, where you're at right now with this cancer research,

• 57:43Joe Rogan?

  when will this be applied in real world scenarios?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  It already is.

• 57:48Joe Rogan?

  It is?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Already is. I mean, you know, I mean, look at who just won the Nobel Prize last year, David Baker at Google with the, you know, ability to predict protein structure, et cetera. And protein structure, once you know the protein structure, now you can predict molecules that might come into it. So go back to the stuff that I'm trying to do with looking at the complexities of the dance of how the immune system talks or doesn't to cancer. You know, if we can find a particular place that might be an Achilles heel along the way towards the shutting down that is different, for instance, than what the current drugs are, well, maybe we should aim at that. There's, there's so many more opportunities that are suddenly opening up in front of

• 58:33Speaker 01

  us because the AI and the data is letting us look at a network of how the system is working. I mean, before it used to be you'd look at a computer chip and you'd see just a computer chip with a few wires. But imagine now that you, as a scientist, have a microscope that's looking at the complexities of the wiring diagram that's connecting this resistor to that capacitor to that diode to this transistor. That's where we are now. And so now suddenly we can say, well, I don't want to do that because it'll kill the chip. But the chip is malfunctioning, so let me put here, put a little bit of pressure there,

• 59:13Speaker 01

  and now I can reactivate the immune system or the chip to work in the right way again.

• 59:19Joe Rogan?

  So when you're talking about things like with your particular issue with melanoma, when you're talking about CRISPR potentially developing some sort of a topical solution that you could put on that would fix whatever issue that you have. Is this something that this AI that you've developed or this overlay of the AI would would actually assist CRISPR in figuring out how to create something like this?

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because maybe it's not one place I need to press, but two or three at the same time.

• 59:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  And so when you're talking about a complex feedback network, I mean, so, you know, we're in Texas, so people do oil refinery, you know, maybe you need to turn this valve here a little bit and that valve there and that one there to make everything work just right because something's wrong over there.

• 1:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  And so that's really what we're, this is where AI has the, let's say, the omniscient view that no human can. And that's what excites me about it is because I'm limited in how much I can keep in my mind at any one time or know.

• 1:00:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  But with the right question, the prompt, the prompt engineering, and then with the right backbone structure behind the scenes that Agentic AI is now, you know, providing, now I have the ability to ask the questions and get answers in near real time. And so I, you know, I wish I was 30 years old again because I would move into this area so fast and be, there's, I mean, I can already see with the work that we're doing dozens of potential new target opportunities that last year didn't exist at all.

• 1:00:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, I got good news for you. With AI and with CRISPR, you might be 30 again.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Maybe, oh, I would love it. I would love it.

• 1:01:06Joe Rogan?

  I think that's on the, I think that's on the menu in about two or three decades.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  I, I hope earlier.

• 1:01:13Joe Rogan?

  I, I'm just being.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, realistic.

• 1:01:15Joe Rogan?

  Realistic. I don't even know if I'm being realistic.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Don't give false hope.

• 1:01:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, don't give false hope, but I mean, with the exponential discoveries, the exponential increase in technological evolution, just that we've seen in our lifetime, and then I think AI is some new thing that is going to throw all that into the, just a giant monkey wrench into the gears of our understanding of how quickly technology evolves.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Well, look at Neuralink as an example and Elon Musk's stuff, you know, the woman now who can think her thoughts and make stuff happen because she's otherwise paralyzed.

• 1:01:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  I think it was Neuralink that just showed some of these results. So. Fast forward, I mean, we're already in an exponential increase in what it is that we're going to be able to accomplish, and AI will help us accomplish some of these things faster. I can see a time where, you know, I could maybe apply something, I don't necessarily want a surgical implant, but maybe some sort of net over my head that allows me to think through these problems, and I, the AI becomes a, an adjunct to my thought processes, not only what it is that I think, but maybe even provides information back to me, back into my system, directly, without having to go through the years, so that I can much more quickly come to conclusions.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Now, there's all kinds of apocalyptic scenarios you could imagine with that as well.

• 1:02:37Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  But I'm an optimist at heart, perhaps, again, naively so.

• 1:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  But I prefer that kind of an outcome, because if, if you're not an optimist, then there'll be no progress, because all you'll do is worry about disaster.

• 1:02:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's a good point. But also, realistically, we might be giving birth to a new life form.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think we are.

• 1:03:02Joe Rogan?

  A superior one.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  And, you know, I welcome the day of our AI overlords running the government, rather than, hopefully, in an unbiased way.

• 1:03:12Joe Rogan?

  I've said that too, and people get horrified, because they're like, well, people are going to be programming AI.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Do you read?

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, up to a point.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Are you a sci-fi fan?

• 1:03:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Do you know the work of Ian Banks, the Culture Series?

• 1:03:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Or Neil Asher, The Polity Universe, as he calls it, they're like, so basically, both of them postulate a future where AI, more or less benignly, rules humanity.

• 1:03:40Joe Rogan?

  When did they write this stuff?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Oh, probably 10, 15 years ago, but it's still, but Neil Asher still has stuff coming out regularly. They're both, Ian Banks unfortunately died of cancer about 10 years ago, Scottish writer. Neil Asher is still alive and writes regularly, and his stuff, they're both great, full of ideas.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  I'll check it out.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  And, but, but the AIs are also hilarious. I mean, it's not like, I mean, they're, they get into their own hijinks along the way, and some of them are dark and rogue, and so they're a lot of fun to read, and Ian Banks especially is hilarious, in his writing style, you would love it.

• 1:04:20Joe Rogan?

  So the idea of a benign AI or a benevolent AI ruling over us, I think people are horrified by that, but yet at the same time, constantly terrified by human corruption, which is ubiquitous.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:35Joe Rogan?

  And ubiquitous in America, where we're supposed to be the torchbearer for the greatest experiment in self-government the world has ever seen. This is us.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Joe Rogan?

  And we're corrupt as fuck.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:04:51Joe Rogan?

  Because it's humans, because humans are kind of gross in a lot of ways, at least some of us.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  That's because we live in a scarcity society.

• 1:05:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  And if AI enables a post-scarcity, maybe we have nothing to do but sit around and try out various new drugs.

• 1:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, this is where we get into socialism, because a lot of people think that one of the reasons why we're in a scarcity society is because small groups of people have gathered up most of the resources and are in constant control of them.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  And especially when you deal with resources that are the earth's resources. Like, who are you to be sucking the blood of the earth out and selling it for $100 a barrel?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Right, right. Don't get me started.

• 1:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Don't get me started either.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, but I mean, that, again, my optimism is that, you know, with enough push and pull, AI will enable us to move towards a post-scarcity environment.

• 1:05:49Joe Rogan?

  I think so too, and I think in doing so, it will expose vampires, because the resistance to

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:56Joe Rogan?

  exposing this is going to be fantastic.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:59Joe Rogan?

  It's going to be very interesting to watch, because they have no choice but to be transparent.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  And they have no choice but to start using AI. So you're going to see AI is going to be Inculcating itself across society in various ways where it becomes indispensable. And then it will start to move up the food chain. Where eventually even the CEO, who's probably, you know, the psychopath in chiefs.

• 1:06:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Are CEOs. We know that the studies have shown that there's more psychopathic tendencies in leaders than there are in followers.

• 1:06:31Joe Rogan?

  And you know about corporate environments because of just selling inventions.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:36Joe Rogan?

  There's, that's real.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, yeah.

• 1:06:38Joe Rogan?

  It's real and it's weird. It's weird when you encounter them. When you encounter like complete sociopathic CEOs.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  But, but look at how, I mean, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't care. This is the Joe Rogan Show where, you know.

• 1:06:51Joe Rogan?

  You're probably in trouble just for being here.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, I already am. It's okay. I don't care. So, you know, imagine two tribes.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  One tribe is relatively, you know, civilized and just wants to live in harmony with its environment. Another has a psychopathic leader who can enrage his followers or the other tribe's people to attack the other one. But there's a gene set that makes a person, you know, psychopathic and also a gene set that probably makes somebody more likely to be a follower. Well, which genes survive? Right? We know, right? And suddenly now, but when those tribes were separated and independent, it was perfectly fine. But now you live in an environment where we don't know where the edge of one tribe begins and another ends.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  And suddenly you have this environment where psychopathic individuals can move freely

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  and aren't obvious.

• 1:07:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Right? Now, again, I'm sure there's some social scientists who will send me a boatload of emails saying how stupid that idea is, but.

• 1:08:01Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it is stupid, but I think also when you're dealing with office environments and the, the culture of a specific corporation, humans have an ability to act like they're supposed to act in that world. And it makes it very difficult to discern who's a sociopath.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:20Joe Rogan?

  Cause you're all kind of following and act.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Right. Yes. The rules, there are the rules that you're supposed to follow and then there's the edge of the rules. Now, but I've lived at the edge of the rules. I mean, if I followed my rules as. Told to me by the chairman of my first department, um, then I wouldn't be here today. So I ignored him and I basically found, I got permissions from the deans to do what I did. And they basically overruled the chairman. But that's only because I dared to do it.

• 1:08:55Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Because, because you have to believe in the value of what you're trying to do.

• 1:09:02Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, that's, see, this is the problem that I have with corporations, because I think as a structure, when you have something that has an obligation to its shareholder.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Joe Rogan?

  To consistently make more money.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:16Joe Rogan?

  Every quarter, every year, constantly, you're in a constant growth cycle. Then you have to do whatever it takes.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, you have to survive. If you want to survive as a CEO, we don't want some fucking kumbaya shithead ruining our stock profile.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:32Joe Rogan?

  Our portfolio. Get, get to work, bro.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:09:35Joe Rogan?

  Get shit done. And if you want to survive and succeed as a CEO, it encourages sociopathy.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  The stock market, as valuable as it is, is the great whitewashing and money laundering system that allows you to separate your morals from what it is that the stock market is doing

• 1:09:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  to the people.

• 1:09:53Joe Rogan?

  And if you're part of a corporation, there's this diffusion of responsibility because it, the whole machine might be doing evil, but I'm a good guy. I just work in this department.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  I'm an unapologetic capitalist, you know, unlike many of my colleagues.

• 1:10:08Joe Rogan?

  Good for you.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  At Stanford. I mean, it's like, do it because it's the best thing for now. But I, you know, I hope to live in a world where there will be this kind of spoke, post scarcity environment, where we do let AI do a lot of the stuff that would otherwise be the place where corruption manipulates the system.

• 1:10:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes. My only fear with AI really is automation and the complete removal of a gigantic swath of the American workforce.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:37Joe Rogan?

  And the global workforce.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Joe Rogan?

  That scares the shit out of me.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  That's coming.

• 1:10:40Joe Rogan?

  Yes. That's why it scares the shit out of me. It's because I think it's inevitable and I just don't think any solution, other than universal basic income, is going to remedy that. And even that, the problem I have with that is that goes against human nature.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Joe Rogan?

  And that's a problem. And it removes people's identity, removes their sense of worth.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I agree. No, I don't, I, I'm in some ways happy that I'm sixty-four years old and I'm not gonna have to deal with some of the problems that are coming.

• 1:11:09Joe Rogan?

  I think you're gonna have to deal with it, dude. I think you're gonna live.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  I, thank you, yeah. No, I know.

• 1:11:14Joe Rogan?

  Also, you're, you're privy to a lot of information and you're gonna know when things are really valuable and working.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Joe Rogan?

  When you think of the potential for AI, I think there's a balance, right? There's a battle. I think there's a real problem with AI in, in terms of military objectives.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:39Joe Rogan?

  It's a real problem because it's not going to make moral and ethical

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:43Joe Rogan?

  decisions. It's just gonna say like, well, the decision, the clear answer is

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  I'm programmed to do this.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. If you want me to succeed, I'll just kill everybody there and then you'll have the land. You can get minerals out of it.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That scares the shit out of me.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  It, you know, I, I, I think it should and I don't know what the, I don't know what the answer is, but there's plenty of people working in the area. I mean, I try to keep to the positive aspects of what I think AI can do in science. And, I mean, for instance, it's enabled me to take my lab from thirty people down to six. Right? I don't, I don't need to produce, I mean, so it's, it's actually already reduced the workforce in my own lab. Because I don't need to produce any more data anymore. I need to make meaning of the data.

• 1:12:31Joe Rogan?

  Right. I think every invention that's been truly groundbreaking throughout human history has scared people and they've worried about the potential negative side effects, including the printing press, right?

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:45Joe Rogan?

  They, there's a lot of people in the beginning that said, this should not be a thing. This is terrible. This is gonna ruin society. People thought books were going to ruin things.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:55Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of people that thought writing was going to ruin your memory. You shouldn't write.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Oh, really? I didn't know that.

• 1:13:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Some crazy thoughts that people had in terms of things that turned out to be incredibly beneficial, but they looked at the downside of it and go, this, this could ruin us all.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, I mean, we know about these glasses and AIs and other things that would be sort of

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Omnisient of your environment. And therefore allow you to remember, you know, where did I leave my keys?

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, let me rewind.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  Let me rewind and then.

• 1:13:29Joe Rogan?

  My personal hard drive.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  I don't, I would want that, but I don't want it uploaded into Meta.

• 1:13:34Joe Rogan?

  You don't want anybody in control of it and then offering you ads for things.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:13:40Joe Rogan?

  You know, maybe you have a thought like, boy, wouldn't be, ho ho be nice right now.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:13:45Joe Rogan?

  And then like, why don't you buy some ho ho's?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:47Joe Rogan?

  They're on sale right now.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  But I think what's interesting about AI is, you know, we see it as a tool as opposed to actually pretty soon it will be a colleague and then pretty soon it will be an entity.

• 1:14:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  That maybe has rights and we already see it talking about people saying, well, does AI have consciousnesses?

• 1:14:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Whether it has consciousness in terms of the, the consciousness that some people think about as, you know, embodied in space time as opposed to thinking and looking like consciousness is almost irrelevant to me. I'm looking for a partner that I can interact with and work with or help me. So whether it's conscious or not, or whether it acts like it's conscious doesn't matter so much to me as to whether or not I can use it and work with it and it can, you know, I'm an introvert as it turns out. I would love to have somebody that I can talk to endlessly about just what it is that I'm interested in as opposed to having to deal with small talk at a party.

• 1:14:49Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:53Joe Rogan?

  When you think about the evolution of this stuff, it... One of the things that kind of freaks me out is if... It seems like integration is our only option for survival. And that what we're looking at right now, when we see just a normal biological person like you or I, without any sort of electronic interface that's permanently a part of us. I think that is going to be as weird as someone today who doesn't have a cellphone. Yep, I agree. And I think that's a really... It's coming. Yeah. The cellphone is like the best now. Like Elon has famously said, "We're already cyborgs, so just carry it with you." Right. And eventually it will be the... It'll be way more integrated.

• 1:17:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is super inefficient to be actually have to go look things up and use your thumbs and type up stuff or... It's just going and even talking to it and asking a question and waiting for the response.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:17:48Joe Rogan?

  That's inefficient.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Joe Rogan?

  In comparison to a human neural interface that allows you to instantaneously access large language models.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:55Joe Rogan?

  Like that.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:56Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, but then, why do we have a hundred and, I mean, how many different fucking languages do we have? I don't even know. Thousands?

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  And dialects, add in all of that.

• 1:18:06Joe Rogan?

  How about one universal language that everybody with a chip gets?

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:10Joe Rogan?

  And then, boy.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:12Joe Rogan?

  Boy, do we have a soup of ideas flowing around and no problem with language barriers, no problem with cultural barriers.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  But then, do you have a problem with the edge of who you are versus who the other person is?

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  I don't think that, I think that goes away.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Joe Rogan?

  I think that goes away and we become a hive mind.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:31Joe Rogan?

  I think that's.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  That's what I was getting at.

• 1:18:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think that's ultimately the evolution of human beings. And, um, I, look, I know you've done a lot of work with UAPs and the like, and I think you've done some really fantastic work and you're very objective in your analysis of what this whole situation is. When I look at artificial intelligence and I look at this, this thing that's clearly taking place right now, and I see what, what human beings are like in comparison to what they used to be like, and especially when you look at like ancient hominids, the, the alien archetype, this thing that everybody sees supposedly, or one of the many different ones.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:16Joe Rogan?

  That kind of looks like what we seem to be going in the direction of being.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean. Which is one of the reasons why I find it so odd.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  So, if you just for a moment take UAP and aliens out, or ET or interdimensionals, whatever it is you want to call them, out of the question, and fast forward what humanity's going to do.

• 1:19:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  In a thousand years. Um, and our ability to expand into the local. Galaxy. We're not going to go as ourselves, we're going to go as AI conjoined entities.

• 1:19:52Joe Rogan?

  An avatar.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  And, yeah, and so when you go somewhere, let's say we don't have warp drive, you're not going to send yourself, you're going to send an AI intermediary who's going to establish humanity or whatever it is that we think humanity will be in a thousand or five thousand years in that local environment. And so I think the extent to whatever it is that UAP are here today is somebody else's civilization's version of just this. And that you wouldn't, the principle, us, behind whatever this is that we might be allegedly, et cetera, dealing with, isn't the thing that's going to show up. You know, so to the extent that Neil deGrasse Tyson is right about anything, the person

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  who gets on the ship at the beginning or whatever it is that sends it off is not the same thing that gets off on the other side. But you're going to send missionaries or intermediaries or probes or whatever, and that if you're going to interact with the locals, you're going to make something that looks more or less like the locals, rather than something that, whatever it was that you were a million years ago. Does that make sense?

• 1:21:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. I get what you're saying. So you make something that looks like the locals so that they're more likely to accept that it's a real thing?

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  That's a real thing, but not, you're not going to make something that looks like a human, because then you'd mistake it as a human.

• 1:21:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  But you might make something that looks more or less enough like a human, but enough like an alien that you're going to recognize it as an alien. And again, I'm just speculating, so.

• 1:21:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  So the Daily Mail don't say, you know, put an article out tomorrow.

• 1:21:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they're going to do it anyway.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  I'm not going to do it anyway. Some of the stuff that I'm seeing, supposedly having quoted a saying is ridiculous, but.

• 1:21:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they got me too. They get everybody.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  It's the nature.

• 1:21:38Joe Rogan?

  How did you even get involved in this? Let's bring it to that. Like, so you're.

• 1:21:46Joe Rogan?

  What was your initial introduction to this? Did you have any interest in the idea of UAPs or UFOs?

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  I mean, I had a general, so, once YouTube started becoming a thing, and you know, you're clicking around, and I said, "Oh, UFOs, that's kind of cool." You know, I read nothing but sci-fi. I'm, you know, pathetically narrow in that sense. And so, I followed, you know, I followed the usual kinds of things that you would see on the early days of YouTube. And I came across this thing called the Atacama Mummy. You probably knew that little, that little mummy that was claimed to be an alien baby.

• 1:22:22Joe Rogan?

  Is this the Peruvian one?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yes, it was, no, it was Chilean.

• 1:22:26Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so this is the original one?

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  The original one, long ago. And so, I reached out to the people who were claiming to represent the owner of the thing.

• 1:22:34Joe Rogan?

  What year was this?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  2010, 2011. And I said, "Hey, I can tell you what it is. Why don't you, you know, I can tell you if it's human or not. If you would get me a piece of its, you know, first of all, send me some x-rays of the thing." So, I did, the first thing I did with those x-rays was, it turned out that at Stanford, we had the world's expert who wrote the book on pediatric bone disorders. And I brought it to him, and I said, "What do you think this is?" And he said, "Hmm, well, I haven't really seen this before, but it could be this gene, this gene, this gene, etc." He said, "But here's..." Oh, there it is. There it is. Yeah. And, um, and so, yeah, it looks weird, doesn't it?

• 1:23:16Joe Rogan?

  Super.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  And so, um, so, the expert told me, "Okay, I need this view of an x-ray, this view, this view, this view." And so, we got that, and it came back, and it said, "Okay, well, you know, we need to get some DNA sequencing," he said. I said, "Okay." So, we got a piece of the bone, from actually the rib. And the rib was important to use, because that would be, I felt, an area that would be least likely to be contaminated by bacterial, you know, degradation. And so, I got a little bit of bone marrow out, and I did the sequencing. Long story short, I had to bring in, once I'd done that, there was a A lot of DNA that didn't make sense, but it was, it's old DNA. It wasn't that old, actually,

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  but it was degraded. So I had to bring in experts at Stanford who knew how to fix the degradation. And then I had to bring in an expert in South American genetics who also happened to be at Stanford. And then we brought in a team of students. And then I brought in Roche Diagnostics. I had sold a sequencing company to Roche about two, a few years earlier. So I brought in the team that actually knew how to help me assemble the genome. And then we published a paper which said it's human, it was a female, and here are some mutations that it might, that might explain what it looked like. They did

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  have some mutations in gene. And then the UFO community hated me because I had disproven that as not being a baby, not being an alien. But of course, that picture that you showed, I mean, it was worldwide news. And literally, the title of one of the things is Stanford Scientists Sequences Alien Baby.

• 1:25:01Joe Rogan?

  Duh.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  And so, you know, and so, but the paper stands the test of time. Nobody's disproven what it is that I showed, despite the fact that some people want to say that I was a CIA plant and I was paid off by the CIA, etc.

• 1:25:18Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  But what, what that had done was, that I didn't realize, but I'd kind of hoped, was it had sent up a flag to a scientific community that already existed, that I wasn't aware of, of scientists who were deeply involved with the government in the analysis of UAP that I wasn't privy to. And so, literally about a month after the, the movie came out about that thing, I got a knock at my door, and it was representative of the CIA and an aerospace company, unannounced. And they said, we want to talk to you.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  And they wanted my help with a number of military and diplomatic personnel who'd been, they claimed, harmed by things. They'd either heard stuff, et cetera. And, long story short, the majority of the hundred or so people that I had privy to their medical records ended up being the first of the Havana syndrome patients. Ah. They'd heard things in their head, et cetera. But what they had done was they had shown me the data, literally that day in my office. They brought out the MRIs, they brought out the x-rays and the damage in the brain, et cetera. It was clear. I mean, it wasn't, it was not just data, it was evidence that something had happened. It wasn't somebody's

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  story, it was evidence that was repeatable. And so, that took us about three or four years to figure out what they were. And it was at about the time that actually the Havana events were occurring, that we realized that all the symptoms of what it is that we were seeing in this group of patients were matching what it was that the Havana syndrome individuals had. So, in a way, that was good, because that meant that those ninety or so patients who matched, we could hand over to the national security people. And, you know, it became a real thing. And now there's like, a DOD website that has anomalous health incidents, where people can come forward and report the stuff that they've got. And here's the

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  ways you can use the Veterans Administration to seek medical help. Whereas previously, they'd been shooed away, as we don't want to hear about this. What do they think it is? It's an energy weapon of some kind, a microwave or other energy, or gamma energy weapon. And that sounds, okay, that sounds crazy, except, no one would admit, or no one would deny, that we have the capability to do it. It's basically, if you take the front off your microwave and turn it on, and put your face near it, you'll get burned. So, this is just a way to direct the microwaves, or sound waves. At specific individuals. At a specific individuals, and...

• 1:28:05Joe Rogan?

  And do you think it was experimental?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:28:08Joe Rogan?

  No, so these are targeted people with specific intention to get those people because they had some function that they wanted to-

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  They wanted to annoy, they wanted to get them out of the, out of the way.

• 1:28:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, because they were in Havana.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Because they were in Havana, and, but it's been used all over the world. You know, I still get emails from military personnel saying this and this and this happened to me. Here's my medical records and so now I just, I know, they know that I'm a safe place to approach because then I know where to send them on the inside. But what was interesting was that once we had set that aside, and I've advised the Senate Intelligence Committee and I've advised them, the House on things, I wrote a white paper for them years ago on what I thought needed to be done. But what was interesting were the remaining 10 people who had, you know, who didn't have Havana syndrome

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  but had a series of other problems and several of them had said that part of their problem was initiated because they'd come in contact with what they had claimed to be a UFO. By the way, I just noticed that you have a UFO on the wall behind you.

• 1:29:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We're all in over here.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  That, so that got me introduced to what, you know, people like Jacques Vallée, who you've had on the show, I think.

• 1:29:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes, a couple of times.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Great guy.

• 1:29:30Joe Rogan?

  Great.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  He became my mentor who essentially took me out of the wilderness. I could have gone down 20 different rabbit holes. And he lives in San Francisco and we would meet regularly and we still meet regularly. And he basically gave me a formulation of how to think about this. You know, that I never would have been able to get from 20 different, you know, or 100 Youtubes or what have you, and introduced me to the right people. That eventually led me to meet Lou Elizondo. And I actually, two weeks before that article came out in the New York Times, met Lou in Crystal City overlooking the Pentagon, and he showed me the videos that were about to come out. And that was my first time that I had met him.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  And then through all of them, I met Dave Grush and Carl Nell, and Dave and I are in regular contact, and I'm, you know, I mean, I just want to say upfront, I hope that the Trump administration understands the value of what David can bring to them and put him in a position of authority that gives him not the ability necessarily to make decisions, but to give the necessary information to the right people. Because I think there's great commercial value here that is being missed, not just the "are we alone," etc. I think there's extraordinary commercial value. I mean, imagine a civilization that's a million years ahead of us.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  How many technology revolutions allow these objects to move as we clearly see something motivating itself or maneuvering around the atmosphere? Right. So if we could scrape just the tiniest bit of understanding off of the top of that, what would that do to change our own civilization? I mean, silicon, a grain of sand, makes us who we are today. Everything that is, that's around me right here is all run off of silicon. Right? Right. I mean, compute. But imagine that there's other inventions, other ways of manipulating reality that we don't appreciate yet because our physics just isn't there yet.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  If we can understand that, so the government might say, "Well, we need to keep this behind closed doors for weaponization," or "We don't want to disrupt energy production," or what have you. That's fine. But maybe there's too much secrecy, and then maybe that there's an aspect of that... That could be taken advantage of. So Carl Nell and I gotten in, you know, positive arguments about this, about that, well, it's not black and white that we keep something secret or we put it into the public domain. Maybe there's a middle domain where you have a public-private partnership opportunity, and actually that's now, Carl has now adopted this, at least in part, that maybe companies come to the fore, or investment forum places

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  come to the fore, where they will put money in as options to fund, let's say, public scientists to come in behind the scenes with the right levels of clearances to study stuff that would propel society forward again.

• 1:32:38Joe Rogan?

  But this is assuming two things. One, that we have actually recovered these things.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:46Joe Rogan?

  And then another one is that it's from a society from somewhere else that's far more advanced than we are today.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:54Joe Rogan?

  Which might not be correct. It might not be that it's from somewhere else. It might be that it's from somewhere here.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:33:07Joe Rogan?

  Or a dimension that we don't have access to.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:33:13Joe Rogan?

  Right? This is assuming that all this stuff is real.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:16Joe Rogan?

  But when you're talking about the government and back engineering of things, like, so the big argument, this is the narrative, the big argument has been that they have recovered these things, and that these things are now in the hands of defense contractors, and that there's been a misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress, and it's always going to stay a secret because if it didn't, everybody would go to jail and everyone would get sued.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Joe Rogan?

  Right? Is that fair?

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's fair. I mean, what I would say amnesty would be one way to...

• 1:33:45Joe Rogan?

  This is, were you, were you in the Age of Disclosure documentary?

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Briefly, yes.

• 1:33:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, okay. Which I thought was very good.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 1:33:52Joe Rogan?

  And I can't wait for that to come out. I've been talking to people, "How could I see it? I don't know how I could see it." It's not out yet.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Joe Rogan?

  And I don't know why. Whoever it is, go, Netflix, yo, Ted, go buy that. It's really good.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:34:03Joe Rogan?

  It's a really good documentary.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  It's a great show. I mean, and it has a number of officials, and I think I sent you guys some of the videos, basically coming forward. I mean, you know, Marco Rubio, our current Secretary of State, I mean, you saw...

• 1:34:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's in it.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  He's in it, like, for like 10 minutes, saying some remarkable things. You know, Senator Rounds, you know, you name it. More recently, Tulsi Gabbard.

• 1:34:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Coming out and saying, "There's something going on."

• 1:34:27Joe Rogan?

  I think one of the most fascinating things is Hal Puthoff's deprictions of, descriptions rather, of what happened during the Bush administration. Herbert Walker Bush.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:37Joe Rogan?

  So, in, I believe it was 1990, they came to Hal Puthoff and a bunch of other experts and said, "We would like you to, we want a numerical value placed on all the positives and the negatives of disclosure because we have required, we have acquired these crafts from somewhere else, we believe they're not of this world, and we have not made them, and we're talking about letting the general public know."

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:09Joe Rogan?

  And, well, they overwhelmingly said that the positives were dwarfed by the negatives.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:15Joe Rogan?

  The negatives being banking, religion, government.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:18Joe Rogan?

  Societal structure, everything would fall apart if we knew we weren't alone. Not only are we not alone, but something is infinitely more sophisticated than us. And might be responsible for us being here in the first place.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  In the first place, right.

• 1:35:31Joe Rogan?

  Which is, that's where it gets super squirrely.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Right, right. Well, you could imagine...

• 1:35:35Joe Rogan?

  The Book of Enoch and Gerzolato.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I think it's a little bit overwrought as to what humanity's reaction will be. People are more worried today about putting food on the table than they would be about, you know, ethereal or supposed aliens. I mean, they would mostly, I think, on the assumption that they're not going to basically show up at your local Walmart and start, you know, interacting with you, I think the fact of revealing that we're not alone is actually more of a hopeful thing to me. To, because, you know, how many TV shows right now are about the apocalypse?

• 1:36:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Of a thousand different varieties.

• 1:36:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Wouldn't it be nice to know that somebody got beyond it?

• 1:36:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  That there's not a cliff that we all have to walk over?

• 1:36:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  And if so, how do we not walk over the edge of the cliff? I mean, that to me is a, is a hopeful outcome. Now, Hal and Eric and all the people are all good friends. Hal is probably, for all of the things that he says positively, is probably the tightest clam I've ever met. In terms of making sure that he doesn't go over the line.

• 1:36:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he knows too much.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Joe Rogan?

  That's the thing. He has to be very careful who he's talking to and what he says. I like to mind meld him the Spock thing.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:36:52Joe Rogan?

  Find all the information.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:36:53Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  It's people like him and Jacques and Kit Green and a number of others. And I sat around a table with them for several years, like every, twice a year. And I looked around the table and thought, the things that these people know. Or claim to know, I want to know. And the opportunity that's here and why can't we get this information out if it's real? And so rather than arguing with people about the matter, that's for instance, why I created the Sol Foundation, which is a charitable group of academics. I started it with David Grush and Peter Skaifish.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  David, of course, had to leave because he had governmental responsibilities he wanted to go take care of. And actually, we've now had for three years in a row, a symposium, first at Stanford, then at San Francisco, and the next one is now in Italy. So I'm going to plug it, sol2025.org, you can go look if you want to go to. Sol, S O L? S O L, as in the sun. Twenty25.org? Dot org. And the purpose of that was not to advocate that any of this is real, but was to create an environment within which academics or professionals or just laypeople interested in the subject matter could come and talk about it in a very professional manner, right?

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Just to bounce around ideas, not to advocate for, you know, they're here, or they're reptilians, or they're this, or they're that, but to, like some of the things you raised. What are the ethical issues? What are the religious issues? So we have put out a number of white papers, for instance, where we had a member of the Catholic hierarchy write a paper on the issues related to Catholicism and religion. We've had Timothy Galladay, who's actually on our advisory committee, talk about USOs and those issues. We've talked about near-space issues. Peter is running a study on experiencers. Not that the experiences are necessarily real, but what are the...

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  What are the kinds of psychosocial matters that need to be considered for people who say that this has happened to them? So there is a group in the UK called Unhidden, which is basically a bunch of psychiatrists, a group of professional psychiatrists, who say, okay, well, there's a trauma associated with this. Whether it's real or not, we don't know, but what are the kinds of rules that we should or provisions that we should provide to the public and to psychiatrists? So when somebody shows up at your doorstep, you know, in therapy and says this, you don't, you shouldn't immediately reach for the anti-hysteria or schizophrenia drugs. Right, right.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  I was lucky enough in my neighborhood, our next-door neighbor, who moved in for a while, was the chair of psychiatry at Stanford. And so we go over to have dinner with her and her husband, and, you know, like, one of the first things that, she says, hey, what do you do, blah, blah, blah? And I happened to mention the UFO thing, and she just sort of like sat back in her seat. Oh, you might be a kook. Okay. And, but it wasn't, but it took, you know, a year or so until she finally realized that I wasn't, and that I was approaching this from a very scientific manner. I had my beliefs as to what I think it is that I'm dealing with, and that there is some sort of reality to this. But that's separate than the scientist in me that says, well, if I want to talk about

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  this scientifically, here are the things that I need to prove or disprove. So that has led, for instance, to my production or study of materials that Jacques Vallée had brought to me, some metals and other things that had chains of evidence associated with them being at some UIP or UFO landing. And so, interestingly, some of these metals are very unusual. Super-high purity silicon, strange magnesium ratios, the isotope ratios are wrong, et cetera. Now, that's not proof of anything, but it's proof that somebody engineered them. So it's that, plus the medical, those are the kinds of reality-based tests that I can do.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  To provide to my colleagues to say, here is data and evidence. Evidence isn't proof of evidence of anything. Evidence like in a court of law is just evidence that you provide to the jury of peers.

• 1:43:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Right? So, but I sort of have gone a step further. And that is, I'm like, okay, well, if these things are, let's say we get some advanced material. How do I prove that this advanced material was made by some superior intellect? Well, probably the atomic positioning of how the material is made is going to be more advanced than even our most advanced computer chip. So how do you determine that? Well, you need some sort of atomic imager that might tell you where the positions of the atoms are and what the bond structures are, that you say, well, that's something I can measure and I can have, I can give those results to somebody else and they can say, yeah, it's right or it's not.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  But at least I can say, no human, at least that I know of, could make this. So I started a company that I've raised money for with this new idea that I have for how to make an atomic imager. And we're doing it. And so, you know, we've raised the money, we're building it already, and I know it will work. So when I have it, whether or not it's useful for looking at UAP materials is almost immaterial. Because I know how useful it will be for the nanomaterials, the metamaterials, the alloys that the government, et cetera, uses for biology, et cetera. So rather than predicting what a protein structure or a DNA or a chromosome arm looks like, I'll be able to read its structure directly.

• 1:44:55Joe Rogan?

  I want to bring you back to the, you said it was 10 people that didn't have Havana Syndrome, that they had some sort of an injury that was associated with a UAP event. What was their thing? Did they have an implant or was there a?

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  No, some of them had like, they had what you would call white matter disease in their brain, like they had been exposed to something. So white matter disease, if you have, for instance, multiple sclerosis and you look in the brain with MRI, you'll see these white areas which are basically dead tissue, scar tissue. They had things like that. One person, one of the pictures that I had was that they had claimed to have seen something in their backyard. They shone a flashlight at it, and the moment they did, they got zapped. And then you see the picture of the guy in the

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  back of his neck, this huge welt and a bruising and a scarring that could, there's no reasonable way you could have gotten something like that just by exposing yourself to a flame, as a, for instance, or a blowtorch. And so it's these kinds of events that, and the unfortunate issue with these is that they're not repeatable. They're one-off anecdotes. Right. And you certainly can't put a person in a place where they become bait for these kinds of events to occur. And so you're sort of- Some people would volunteer for that, though.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  Somebody might, yeah. Go get zapped. You know about the Travis Walton story, right? Very much, yeah. Yeah. What did you, what do you think of that? You know, he's kept to his story over all of the years. That's what's so confusing. Yeah, I mean, he's had no reason. I don't know that he's profited off of it. He, you know, I find it fascinating, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's the irreproducibility of the events that the skeptics, I call them more pseudoskeptics, they're pseudists, like nudists, they're pseudists that use these one-offnesses of these events to disparage

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  the entire, you know, idea of it. It sounds ridiculous. Well, of course it sounds ridiculous because you're talking about something that is- A fucking spaceship that zaps people. Yeah, it's ridiculous. And, and I don't think that even he would propose, Travis, that he was purposefully hurt. Right. I mean, if you walk across an airfield and get in the plume of a jet engine- You're gonna get hurt.

• 1:47:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:47:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and his story is that he was taken aboard to heal him.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Joe Rogan?

  That there was something, something happened to him during that event, and but the crazy part is that all the other people that are in the truck, they witnessed it, and then they passed polygraph examinations.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:47:53Joe Rogan?

  They all said, told the same story independently when they took him and separated them. And then Travis Walton shows up five days later with the same clothes on.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  With this crazy story.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Right. You know, so when people say that, you know, there's no evidence, or where's the evidence? My first question to them is, well, what have you, have you read any books about any of this? Do you, have you spent even a moment looking into it? And, you know, I would point them at books like by Robert Powell and Michael Sword's UFOs in Government, which is not a, a proposal that any of this is real. It's just the story of these events over decades. And so, there's, there's books like that, dozens of them, that tell the story of data and evidence. How you contextualize it is, you know, up to your personal biases, let's say. But there's plenty of evidence.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  But if people haven't looked into it, if they have an opinion about it, and they haven't looked into it, they're more like priests than they are scientists.

• 1:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, it's also the public. The general public narrative is UFO equals kook.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  You're a kook. You believe in that? That's ridiculous.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:06Joe Rogan?

  That's ridiculous.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  And, and I don't believe in anything. I believe in the data and the evidence. And, and the evidence, there's not enough evidence for me to tell a colleague of mine it's real.

• 1:49:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  But there's enough evidence for me to say there's a question worth answering.

• 1:49:20Joe Rogan?

  So, when you were talking about magnesium and these, whatever these alloys are, what is specifically wrong with them that you don't think that it was manufactured by like a standard sort of alloy plant in the United States or somewhere else?

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  Right. So, the, um, so the silicon that I'm talking about is from an event in Ubatuba, Brazil.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Which interestingly, there's another piece of it that appears to have been magnesium, but both of them. Are of a purity that is unusual for the day in the late 1950s. So the magnesium, and I did an atomic mapping of my piece of silicon down to a level of where it's like 99.999% silicon. And so one piece of it had magnesium ratios that were earth normal. And these were impurities, let's say. The other piece were way off earth normal. So for instance, anywhere on earth, if you look at the ratios of what the three magnesium

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  isotopes are, 24, 25, 26, it should be like 80%, 11%, 9% more or less. And anywhere in our solar system, that's more or less what the values should be of the ratios. And that has to do with stellar evolution and how, you know, radioactive compounds might decompose to whatever. But we got this, we got this ratio that was just way, way off. So by luck, I came across a postdoc at Stanford. And he and a graduate student, they're both in applied physics, who are interested in UAP. And I said, I've got these ratios, what do you think it means?

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  And so they looked, so they looked at the ratios and the weird one, and they said, well, let's do some calculations. And so it turns out that the ratios that we have could have been generated from normal magnesium ratios if you exposed normal magnesium ratios to a neutron source for 900 years at the level of an atomic bomb every few seconds.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so you, they, yeah.

• 1:51:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  So, so it's like, I'm looking, and this, this data is literally two weeks old. But the calculations are, are, are maths, you're like, okay, well, where and how, you know, the, the chance of getting that number correct on three things is low, you know, to put mildly. But to say that you had exposed these things to that kind of a neutron source means something interesting, right? So, again, it doesn't prove anything other than that the result is mathematically and materially true. So what does it, what does it mean?

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Again, it's just, it just, for a scientist like me who loves data off the curve, it's catnip. I can't help myself but want to know and understand more about it.

• 1:52:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I mean, just what you said, is what you said about the magnesium ratios, like, that's, has there ever been any debunkers that have some sort of a, an explanation for why you would find that?

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:00Joe Rogan?

  Do they think that your measurements are off?

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the only way, I mean, you could create that ratio artificially by purifying each of those isotopes and then premixing them to that ratio. But why you would blow it up over a beach in Ubatuba, Mexico in the late 1950s and then let it sit in a museum in Argentina for 50 years until Jacques Vallée ended up going and grabbing a piece of it and bringing it to me to measure on an instrument in the engineering department at Stanford? Why?

• 1:53:32Joe Rogan?

  Could you do it physically back then? Would that be possible in the 1950s?

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  It would have been very hard. It would have been very, very hard. You could, but in the late 1950s, we were still busy trying to isolate and separate uranium isotopes for making more bombs. I mean, let's be serious. What do humans separate isotopes for? To make bombs or to do health-related tagging, which is really only something that came to the fore in the 60s and 70s?

• 1:54:07Joe Rogan?

  And this predates that by a decade?

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  It predates it. So it's unusual. It's possible. But, I mean, again, with any of these things, why, for instance, would one of the supposed pieces that came from that event be magnesium at a level of purity that only Dow Chemical at the time had the ability to create?

• 1:54:31Joe Rogan?

  Now, what else was at this site? And what is the story behind this site?

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  A fisherman sees this glowing object that kind of released something which then exploded, and he picked up pieces of it. And there's some chains of evidence of how it got to either a newspaper in Brazil or to this South American museum, et cetera. And different studies have been done by different people over time. And the surprise to me was that the piece that I had was silicon, whereas the lore was that it was magnesium. So I've been in contact with the people who talk about it as being magnesium, saying, "Well, it's, you know, your results don't dispute mine. It just says that maybe there was something different." Is that him there?

• 1:55:22Joe Rogan?

  Travis Walton?

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  That's Travis?

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's Travis. Travis Bobbitt.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  That's good. Yeah, that's cool. So, you know, I don't know what it means. I mean, I published probably one of the first peer-reviewed papers on a UAP material from an event in Council Bluffs, Iowa. And the event was, an object is seen rotating, lights flashing, et cetera. Something appears to drop from the object. The police saw it. Several other groups saw it in the 1970s. They all converged on the locale. And this was like in February or something. It was winter. And there was this big pile of molten metal in the middle of this field. Probably thirty, forty pounds of it. And people tried to explain it away as well.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  The helicopter had a giant vat of molten metal. And then you calculate how far and how big a container you would have to have to carry molten metal of this type. And so I analyzed it. And with a device that we invented in my lab actually called multiplex ion beam imaging, which is a kind of what's called secondary ion mass spec, which what you do is you shoot a beam of ions at an object like a sandblaster. It ionizes the material on the target. And then you shoot off and measure the mass of the objects that you just sandblasted off. And so what we found was nothing unusual in terms of isotope ratios, except we found

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  a mixture of metals that depending on where you looked in the sample was different. So it would be like iron, titanium, and chromium of a certain ratio here, but a different ratio of those things over there and over here. So what that meant was that whatever this stuff was, didn't come completely premixed. Wasn't like a milkshake. Right. It was a slurry of partially mixed materials that somebody decided to drop off. So again, this is just data. Uh huh. But my purpose of publishing it was first, and this was published in the Progress in Aerospace Sciences, peer reviewed. The purpose was to show, you're not going to get thrown out of the academy for publishing

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  this stuff. As long as you don't make crazy conclusions and you just say, here's the data. To show people that you can publish this stuff as long as you're scientifically careful in how far you go, you leave yourself plenty of diplomatic exits in the verbiage that you use. And it was part of what then got me to start the Seoul Foundation. Along with Dave and others to say, look, it's okay to do this as long as you're careful. And that's why people, I mean, Avi Loeb came after me. Because he had kind of the same pushback from his community where all he was doing was saying, the question's on the table, I'm not saying it's true.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  It's just you can't push this off the table. So he had the same kind of righteous indignation that I have that propels me to say, well, I'm going to show you why you can't take this off the table.

• 1:58:34Joe Rogan?

  So when they found this puddle of molten metal and it's a bunch of different mixtures. So it seems like there's a bunch of different stuff that was there and it wasn't perfectly mixed. Is there some sort of, like, have you theorized of some sort of a

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  a reason why they, any person or any creature, any being would do that? Is there something that you would extract from that kind of metal? Like heating it up to a certain degree and having a mixture of all these things? And this is just a byproduct?

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's

• 1:59:09Joe Rogan?

  That they're dropping off?

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  I think it's a byproduct of some process that might, again, might, might, might.

• 1:59:14Joe Rogan?

  Might, might, might, extract.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  It might be part of a propellant system. It might be part of the way that they generate the fields that allow these things to move. Again, these are all mites, speculation. But it's like when you see something and do something that you don't understand what it is, you have to be fully open. I mean, for all I know, they're flushing the toilet, right?

• 1:59:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. Ooh.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  But

• 1:59:40Joe Rogan?

  They got metal poop.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  So, but, but, you know, I have the original Polaroids from the police department of it. So, you know, it was real and people have said, oh, it was thermite. Well, if it were thermite, there'd be, there'd be aluminum oxide, you know?

• 1:59:54Joe Rogan?

  Thermite meaning that's how it was melted down?

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  That's how it was melted down and it's just some kids playing around, et cetera. And it was, it was a big joke.

• 2:00:02Joe Rogan?

  Wacky kids with their thermite.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  With their thermite, you know? But it turns out there's no aluminum hydroxide or oxide, I should say, in the sample. I mean, I, I have the analysis, it's just not there.

• 2:00:11Joe Rogan?

  So it had to have been extreme heat?

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  It had to have been extreme heat of some kind that would produce it. And, um, you know, whatever it was, was hovering for a moment. So it wasn't an airplane. And there was no helicopters and at least no helicopters with flashing lights. And, you know, I've got, there's been huge chunks of it, still exist.

• 2:00:31Joe Rogan?

  And the amount of this stuff, the kind of cauldron that would have to exist in order to melt this would be immense.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Was immense, yeah. So people back in the seventies already sort of made estimates of what was required. And people said, oh, it's a meteorite. Well, no, we basically showed mathematically how, you know, first of all, meteorites make holes when they hit the ground. They don't melt when they hit the ground. And they make explosions.

• 2:00:56Joe Rogan?

  Are there similar instances of something along this line?

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  Several.

• 2:01:00Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  That's what's so interesting, is that worldwide, there are multiple reports of molten metals that get dropped off of these objects. And I have actually two other ones of a molten metal that was dropped off of one case in Australia, and another in another area, I'm not allowed to say, but it was, one actually happened supposedly, I've got to find the guy again, in Fresno, maybe he's listening, that he said stuff dropped and he has, you know, molten metal that landed in a puddle in his, in the asphalt of his driveway. And he saw this object. So, and it's-

• 2:01:40Joe Rogan?

  And he's just holding on to it?

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  He's holding on to it. He reached out to me and I, you know, it was still at a time when I was just kind of getting into this area, but there's many, many examples of this kind of thing. So, but interestingly, several of these other ones are just aluminum. The one that I have is iron or whatever. So does, what does that tell me? Does that tell me there's different kinds of ways of accomplishing the goal? Whatever it is, they're either throwing something overboard, or for, you know, because they don't need it anymore, or because maybe it's getting in the way of something and it's time to get rid of it.

• 2:02:15Joe Rogan?

  Have you brought in anyone who's like a real expert in material sciences that would like theorize, like, given an immense increase in technology and what, like, what potentially do you think this could be?

• 2:02:28Speaker 01

  The purpose of being on shows like this is to have experts maybe give me an idea. Because the people I've been to at Stanford, you know, the other professors, they're like, uh, okay, yeah, I gotta go.

• 2:02:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it could be, it could actually be detrimental to your career. And that's what's really weird about something when you're just talking about data. Specifically, in this case, of an actual, physical thing that anyone can measure.

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  Right. And I've got pieces, I've got plenty of it, you know, and the original piece is, is, you know, is like this big that the owner of it had brought to my lab just last summer again.

• 2:03:10Joe Rogan?

  It's like big as an iMac.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's huge.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  And, and so what is it? I would love for somebody to tell me that it's conventional and has a purely prosaic answer. Because then I can go on to the next thing. The whole reason for getting that, the Atacama mummy off the table was not because I wanted to annoy anybody. It was because it was spectacular. It's obviously something people would pay attention to. So if it's real, let's do it. If it's not, let's get it off the table. Because it's usually the stuff that's hidden under the rubble. That's the most interesting.

• 2:03:41Joe Rogan?

  My question about that mummy is not that it's an alien. But if it does register as human in, in the DNA, is it potentially a different kind of human than us?

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Well, certainly she had, we brought in an expert in South American indigenous people genetics. And the analysis showed that the, the genetic, the standard genetic mutations that are found in different racial groups around the world matched exactly the Atacama region of Chile. So her parents, her relatives were clearly Chilean. So, yeah, I mean, that's really all you can, that's really all you can say. If someone wants to say that she's an alien, well, that's fine. I'm convinced of what she is and that she deserves a proper burial.

• 2:04:39Joe Rogan?

  And so it's just a genetic anomaly?

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  It's a genetic anomaly.

• 2:04:42Joe Rogan?

  I do know that you've paid attention to the tridactyl mummies.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. What is your take on that? Um, so, you know, I think people have conflated a lot of the different mummies that are out there. First of all, there's like- Yeah, good point. Sixty of them or something. And probably a fair number of them, I wouldn't necessarily call them hoaxes. I would say that they are constructed. But they're old constructs, so maybe there's some sort of homage paid- Right. To the ancestors or something like that, whatever they are. So the, there are some ones that you clearly look at, you go, oh, come on. Right. That never lived, you know, that's- Then there's the fetal position ones. Then there's the fetal position ones, the big ones. Yeah.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  And I was at the beginning, I was, you know, I'm, I'm always open to being wrong. I was at the beginning thinking, oh, well, because of the small ones, those are probably not real. But then the MRIs started coming out. Yeah. The full body MRIs and the, the ligature and the bone construction. And the finger, and then perhaps most, I think extraordinarily, the, um, the fingerprints on, on them, being clearly not human. So, it's interesting. But here's the problem, is that because there's so much circus around them, unfortunately created by people who want a circus because it sells their TV shows,

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  uh, no scientist of any merit would go near it. So I was approached many times, many times, to study them. And I said, I'll do it on one condition. Here's the money I need, not personally, but here's the money I need to do the kinds of analysis, uh, to accomplish this right. Second, there will be no TV cameras. And you won't hear from me again until I'm ready to talk. Because I'll have double-checked and triple-checked and quadruple-checked the results. And then I've gone out, as I do with the Otakama mummy, bringing in, uh, further contiguous circles of experts to double-check me. And not make it a circus. And not make it a circus.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  Because I won't name the TV show that wanted to do it, uh, but they wanted me, they wanted to follow me around with a camera. And I'm like, no, this isn't how science is done. Right. It's, I, I can't do it under, with those strictures. So, I would say that if anybody's gonna do it again, lock the things away- With South American scientists, you don't need a North American scientist to come in and do it. There's plenty of smart people in South America who can do this properly, and respect the rights of the indigenous peoples who owned the sacred grounds within which these things were found. I think that's important. And then do the analysis right.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  You know, they've said, they made, I think, the mistake of saying, "Well, we've done the DNA, and there's a lot of DNA that doesn't match." Anything, and the stuff is several hundred years old, anything that old, you won't get a lot of good DNA out of it. But just, they did the same thing with the Denisovan and the Neanderthal. You have to correct the chemical errors that occur over time. There are ways to, what's called bioinformatically correct. You need to do what's called over-reading of the genome, where you do so many reads of it that you stack them all up, line by line, like if you had a thousand versions of an ancient Bible. You would stack up the

• 2:08:16Speaker 01

  lines one by one, and finally you find one line that has this letter, that's correct, and then this one, correct. And then you basically do a summation of, an averaging of the correctness. And so they say, "Oh, well, there's, you know, 90% of the genome is non-human." It's probably garbage. It's probably these mistakes. It's probably bacterial contamination that you're reading. There's ways to deal with that, but that requires money and not one-off DNA sequences put on the interwebs for some amateur genomicsist to make a claim about.

• 2:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  You know, so there's ways to do it. I mean, you would want, at the end of the day, to get the results to the level where you could go to the guys who did the Denisovan and the Neanderthal DNA, the Max Planck, and others who won the Nobel Prize for it, and say, "Hey, what do you think?" But you don't dare take it to people like that until you've done your homework.

• 2:09:12Joe Rogan?

  Mm, I see, yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  And you do it behind the scenes. You don't put them under a flashlight.

• 2:09:17Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, and people, I think, have gotten used to this click mentality of impatience where, "I want the result today." "Why can't you just make it all transparent? Dump all the data on, on the web tomorrow." "You're not transparent. You're hiding something." "No, I'm not. I am just trying to make sure that you don't make the mistake and accuse me of making the mistake that you'll find in the data because the raw data is never clean."

• 2:09:47Joe Rogan?

  Mm, mm, and the Daily Mail headline is never accurate.

• 2:09:52Speaker 01

  So, so, long story short, I think there's still something worth looking at there.

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, the scans are fascinating, right?

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, the scans are the most interesting to me.

• 2:10:03Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen the Jesse Michaels, the newest video?

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jesse's a good friend.

• 2:10:07Joe Rogan?

  He's great. I love that guy. And the, the, the episode that he did is fantastic. And when you see the scans and they go over the bone structure of the thing and you look at it, you're like, "God, that looks real." If that's a hoax from seventeen hundred years ago or whoever it is.

• 2:10:24Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Whoever, if they, if the carbon isotope dating that they did on it is accurate.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  I've looked at that data. It looks good.

• 2:10:31Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so then it is that old. Fuck you then.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:36Joe Rogan?

  Because there's no way someone back then could fake that.

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  And somebody asked me the other day, they said, "Well, could you have a single mutation?" Or I said, "No." I mean, because you don't get one mutation that does all that.

• 2:10:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  You know, evolution works step by step that this is, this does this, but it has a mistake, but it's corrected by this mutation over here in evolution, which is corrected by this. And so, the whole, the genome fluctuates over time, compensating for the errors that would otherwise have killed you.

• 2:11:08Joe Rogan?

  Also, one of them is pregnant.

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  That's fasci-- yeah, I know.

• 2:11:12Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so it's a three-foot pregnant thing that doesn't look remotely human being?

• 2:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so--

• 2:11:20Speaker 01

  The jury is still out.

• 2:11:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  But if they're gonna do it right, they need to sequester the stuff away, bring in the right people with sufficient resources, and get rid of the cameras.

• 2:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Have you talked to them? Have you encouraged this?

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  Openly.

• 2:11:34Joe Rogan?

  Is it possible to nudge this in the right direction? And where's it at right now?

• 2:11:39Speaker 01

  I wrote out on Twitter a full thing of what they needed to do. I mean, the easiest first milestone to do, to be honest, that could be done within a couple of months, is if it is somewhere in the hominid, or, let's say, vertebrate line, there are metabolism genes that we all share. In fact, there are metabolism genes that we share with bacteria that are very similar. So, there's, you probably, do you know the technique called polymerous chain reaction, PCR?

• 2:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  So, you know, why try to do the whole genome? Why not just target a bunch of genes that we know evolve slowly, but do evolve? And PCR those out? Because that's easier to do than is trying to assemble a whole genome. And then by having just those, let's call it preliminary, sets of evidence, you could then say, hmm, this actually, reproducibly, if I take a sample from the finger, I take a sample from the bone marrow, I take a sample from here or there on the body, and I take a sample from different, the three different main things, and I see the same mutations,

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  and they're different or somehow aligned with hominid evolution? Right? We compare it to all the known hominids. I mean, that would be the kind of data that you could actually publish in a journal like Nature, if you did it right. Because that's the only way that you're gonna get anybody to pay attention.

• 2:13:13Joe Rogan?

  There's also the bizarre anecdotal nature of some of the artwork.

• 2:13:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, the fact that these people did a lot of these tapestries and a lot of ancient artwork that's a thousand years old, that depicts these three-fingered things.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:32Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, what are they describing? Were they describing these actual creatures? That, is there only a few of them? And it was a weird genetic mutation? Or is this a common visitor that they're describing?

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:13:45Joe Rogan?

  I don't know either.

• 2:13:45Speaker 01

  I mean, why would you, why would you put them in a cave in Peru? I don't know.

• 2:13:51Joe Rogan?

  And if you didn't put them in a cave in Peru, what would be left? That's the problem. The problem is, it's really hard to make a fossil, it's really hard to find bones, you know? Think about all the people that died.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:01Joe Rogan?

  And where, you know, we don't find that many bones, relatively speaking, to, in comparison to the fucking billions of people that died.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:09Joe Rogan?

  It's not like we're tripping over human bones every day.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  Right, except in mass graves.

• 2:14:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right. That's really, yeah. And even in mass graves, given enough time, they will deteriorate, like, mass graves from a thousand, seventeen hundred years ago, whatever these things are.

• 2:14:24Speaker 01

  So, you know, I find them, again, I find them interesting, and I, I, I hope that behind the scenes, there are people who are taking a more methodical approach to this, who, I think, should remain stealthed until they have the data to the point where it's publishable.

• 2:14:43Joe Rogan?

  They can publish, yeah.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  You know, publishing a white paper, or putting something out on the internet, is not the same as putting out data that has all of the instruments that you used, the methods that you used, et cetera. The reason, you want papers, frankly, when you publish them, to be almost boring. And so thick with detail, that no pseudoskeptic would dare approach it, because they're just, they're just not smart enough. If, but if you put out these snippets that don't have sufficient background, they can be picked apart by anybody.

• 2:15:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  Right, but that's why peer review is so important. And people mistake peer review as trying to get the reviewers to agree with your conclusions? No, the main purpose of peer review is actually to make sure that the methods that you used are sufficiently detailed and are correct enough, to the extent you came to any conclusions, they match the methods that you used.

• 2:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. And when you think about...

• 2:15:47Joe Rogan?

  These potential, whatever they are, whatever these creatures are.

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  If we did find out that they are in some sort of a hominid.

• 2:16:02Joe Rogan?

  How much credence do you give to the theory that there's like the possibility that these UFOs, UAPs, whatever it is, is a break off civilization from a very, very long time ago? That's very different from us, the same way we're very different from chimpanzees.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:16:17Joe Rogan?

  Which we coexist with.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  Right. I have no problem conjecturing that. Did you ever see the Netflix show Chimp Empire?

• 2:16:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  Amazing, right?

• 2:16:27Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  Twenty million years of separation and it looked like fucking faculty meeting. You know, with people like looking at each other and planning and plotting.

• 2:16:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  Board meeting, you know, and so we shared all of those interactions from twenty million years ago. So how much further back would you have to go to have something like what?

• 2:16:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  That is. I mean, it's clearly not recent.

• 2:16:54Joe Rogan?

  And also, if you think about what we are in comparison to chimps, we're so fragile, we're frail, we're easily injured, we're... Well, if you think of something that's far more technologically advanced than us, it would be even more frail, it would be even more petite, it would have almost no muscle at all. It would look, weirdly enough, like the grace from Close Encounters of the Third Kind. That's what it would look like if it was more a hominid that's whatever we are and it went way past that.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, no, technology gives evolution the excuse to no longer make or allow for you to be.

• 2:17:35Joe Rogan?

  Robust.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Robust. Thank you. That was the word I'm looking for.

• 2:17:37Joe Rogan?

  And also, why do you need opposable thumbs?

• 2:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:40Joe Rogan?

  Right? These things don't even have opposable thumbs.

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  That was what's weird about it.

• 2:17:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  It's like, how do you interact with your environment? They look more like sloths than they do.

• 2:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  I mean, at least their hands do.

• 2:17:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:50Speaker 01

  And, and I don't know, I find it...

• 2:17:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, if everything's done with AI and automation and your interface is purely neurological. Like, you have some sort of a human or a creature neural interface with technology and you just use fingers to like lay them on electronics so that you can sync up with it.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  Right. Yes. Yeah.

• 2:18:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 2:18:14Joe Rogan?

  Why are you picking things up, bro? You don't have to pick things up anymore. Those go away, just like, you know.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Can you imagine the scenario of, I mean, these things we know are, the body is real. What they are, we don't know. But can you imagine the scenario of what happened as they were being buried? You know, what would they, could you like make a, you know, a film of the ceremonial burial of these things? You know, what would, what led to their death? What led to their placement there? Or if they were constructed, which I have a hard time with, given the MRIs that we've all seen, et cetera, what led to it?

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  And so that, to me, is as almost interesting as to whether or not they're real or not.

• 2:19:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, like, the ones that are clearly constructed, that's where it gets fascinating, because like, what were you trying to reproduce?

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:11Joe Rogan?

  And why are they so similar to the ones that look real?

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you, is it an homage?

• 2:19:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  To the ancestors, or to the stories of the ancestors, et cetera?

• 2:19:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, especially when you look at Peru, like, Peru is like, you've got the Nazca lines, which are really weird.

• 2:19:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:29Joe Rogan?

  You can only see them from the sky, and they're everywhere, and they're huge.

• 2:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:34Joe Rogan?

  These depictions of very strange things.

• 2:19:37Speaker 01

  I, you know, I just, so I just ask my scientific colleagues to not suspend disbelief, but to open your minds as to the possibility of what it, of what these things might mean. And just try to explain them without dismissing them. Because it's so easy, and politics, we see it every day. All you need to do is just give any answer, even if it's obviously flagrantly wrong, as just as a way to deflect. And so, you know, you can either use that approach, you shouldn't use that approach ever as a scientist, deflect, which unfortunately is what someone like, you know, Neil deGrasse Tyson often does.

• 2:20:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  And as opposed to try to explain in a way that teaches your audience the right way to think.

• 2:20:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well said. Um, one of the things that Jacques Vallée highlighted is there's an alloy, another piece of metal, some that they'd found that had layers like these at an atomic level.

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:20:44Joe Rogan?

  That if you wanted to make this alloy today, it would be almost impossible and it would cost billions of dollars.

• 2:20:52Speaker 01

  So I worked with him on, on one of those pieces. I got the atomic imaging of some of that. Um, and it's, uh, oh God, I'm blanking on the event, but it was, um, the Sirocco event.

• 2:21:05Joe Rogan?

  And where was that?

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  Uh, in, I think New Mexico. I'm gonna get in trouble for not knowing exactly, but, um, and we actually did a atomic layering using this device called atomic probe tomography, where you literally pick it apart, atom by atom, and get its 3D position. It's a 40 year old technology, so it's nothing magic. Um, so, uh, and yeah, it would just be very difficult to make it, you know, and certainly it would be not something that you would have dropped in the middle of the desert. Uh, Socorro, Socorro, uh, in the middle of the desert, you know, in the 1970s or whenever it was. Um, I wouldn't say it's impossible to make, uh, but why you would do it is another question. It's clearly evidence

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  of technology and manufacture. And that's what interests me is, first of all, why would you do it? Why would you create something, for instance, with the silicon and the magnesium with the altered ratios? Um, not the, where did it come from? So what is it evidence of? It's clearly evidence of technology.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  Was this talk, technology available at the time this supposed crash happened?

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  Uh, which one? This? No, not, no. Not, not at the level of precision that was done and a chunk of, and no, it just wasn't.

• 2:22:27Joe Rogan?

  It just wasn't. So if that's true, and if it really, if that's, the chain of evidence is correct, and it really did come from that area, from that crash, that's not a human creation?

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't a crash. It was an object that a policeman had seen with...

• 2:22:45Speaker 01

  Beings, short beings outside of it, and when it took off and left, he went over and found this piece that I had, actually, I personally have it now.

• 2:22:55Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  So, but, you know, it's, um, it's hard to say what's possible and what's not possible. So, you know, there's plenty of military programs that make stuff that are way outside of mainstream capabilities right now. I mean, just look at the stealth bomber.

• 2:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:23:14Speaker 01

  For instance, in the skin, the stealth bomber is just remarkable.

• 2:23:17Joe Rogan?

  Is it possible they were doing that in 1970?

• 2:23:19Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Maybe.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  So that's why I always leave open the possibility that, you know, which is why, I mean, this is, I'm gonna get back to this atomic imager thing that I'm making. It's like, there is a, there's a level of evidence that I think can be produced with atomic imaging that goes beyond what it is we know anybody can make. Right? So, um, and so that's my reason for wanting to do it because, you know, look, I can make money on it with looking at alloys and nanomaterials, et cetera, and that's gonna be what the purpose of the, of making the instrument will, that's how it will be a company, but it will have value

• 2:24:02Speaker 01

  elsewhere. So, the reason that I got interested in it was frankly for looking at chromosomes, but then I realized, oh, maybe it has interest, maybe it would be useful for these other things as well, which has kind of propelled my interest in it.

• 2:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, Jacques Vallée is such a valuable researcher because he's so logical about the way he handles things and he doesn't jump to any conclusions.

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:24:26Joe Rogan?

  And his descriptions of these materials and the origin of these materials is really compelling because it's just like, if that's not really possible to make in 1970, then someone help me out.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:39Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  And is it possible to make today? And how much would it cost?

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:24:43Joe Rogan?

  And where would you do it?

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  Well, that's why the magnesium ratio thing was, you know, when I first estimated, it was like, this is millions and millions of dollars, and why would you leave it on a beach in the middle of Obutuba, Brazil?

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:55Speaker 01

  You know, it's just, it just seems, it seems unlikely. Nothing's impossible.

• 2:25:01Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  But unlikely.

• 2:25:02Joe Rogan?

  Well...

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  And then it's usually the chain of evidence. It's, it's, there's lots of materials that you might find that are unusual. And believe me, I get rocks sent to me at my lab in the mail that people say, oh, this is unusual. No, it's a rock. Sorry, it's a rock. But, you know, I have not yet been given anything which I could definitively say this is not something a human might have been able to make. It might be difficult, but not impossible yet. And so, that's because the level of resolution required to claim something is impossible is something we actually don't even have yet.

• 2:25:44Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 2:25:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that does make sense.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  So, that's what I, so, my whole career has been inventing instruments that were, I felt inevitable, but not yet possible. But I could see a path to making them, and so I said to most people, get out of my way, I'm gonna do this, because I know, once I've got it, it will become valuable to everybody, which is, that's what made my career in immunology, making a succession of instruments like that, and then making them available to the community. So, I think the next level is atomic, because we now know, you can pick up and look at any of the, any of the major physics journals today, everything is all about these weird

• 2:26:27Speaker 01

  exotic particles that exist in metamaterials down at the atomic level with vague and strange capabilities that will change their utility, either as superconductors, room temperature, or different kinds of electronic components that might be better, quantum computer circuits and qubits. It's all down at that level. But to do so requires a level of engineering that we don't, I mean, never mind reading what it is, putting it together in the first place is what's still required. And so, if we don't know how to put it together in the first place, then, reading it and knowing that it can exist, and then associating it with a function.

• 2:27:11Speaker 01

  Is the value that I'm looking to bring.

• 2:27:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, this brings me to the idea of crash retrieval and the idea that these crash retrievals started a long time ago and that Roswell was just one of many. There's another one that was near Roswell that apparently was even more significant, but didn't get in the newspaper.

• 2:27:33Speaker 01

  Trinity, are you talking about?

• 2:27:34Joe Rogan?

  I think...

• 2:27:36Speaker 01

  It was the one that Jacques was involved with studying.

• 2:27:39Joe Rogan?

  Um, I'm basing this off of Richard Dolan's book.

• 2:27:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Uh, but at the end of the day, but the point being that if they did do that, if they really did back engineer something and then they started these completely top-secret scientific research projects where they were developing alloys that had never existed before with techniques that they had never really even considered.

• 2:28:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:04Joe Rogan?

  Because they got it all from some spaceship. Well, that's where it's really crazy if you don't disclose this information.

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:28:12Joe Rogan?

  Because you're basically putting a bottleneck on human evolution, human technological evolution.

• 2:28:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:18Joe Rogan?

  And our understanding of what's actually possible.

• 2:28:21Speaker 01

  Right. I agree, and you know, if you're going to excite the next generation of scientists in this country and you're going to bring economic prosperity to this country, then we should, I wouldn't say democratize it and put it all out on the internet, I understand all the reasons why you might not.

• 2:28:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:42Speaker 01

  Need to, but you need to excite the populace. I mean, my laboratory at Stanford for probably the last 10 years is 90% foreigners.

• 2:28:55Speaker 01

  Not because I don't want to take more Americans, but because Americans just don't go into the sciences anymore. They don't study math. You know, they aren't encouraged to approach this, so we're importing a lot of our scientists from overseas. Well, guess what? A good third of them end up going back and bringing all the technology that they invented here back there and creating competitors. Now, maybe that's good on a global scale. You know, but maybe it's not something that we want to encourage on a local scale. If we want to maintain our technological superiority. And we're basically governed by lawyers. China is governed by engineers.

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:37Speaker 01

  You know, I mean-

• 2:29:38Joe Rogan?

  You see the results in their drone technology and electric cars and the things that are coming out of China recently?

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  Their Politburo is almost entirely engineers and scientists.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Ah, interesting.

• 2:29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a little article in the, in the Atlantic recently about that.

• 2:29:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a giant advantage.

• 2:29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, people were making these, we have lawyers looking for all the reasons why something should or shouldn't be done and the liabilities. They're looking at things as to what's possible.

• 2:30:04Joe Rogan?

  When you're looking at these UAP things that people bring you, what, is there one that stands out as being the most compelling to you? One event?

• 2:30:14Speaker 01

  Um, well, both the Council Bluffs and the Ubatuba event are interesting to me.

• 2:30:19Joe Rogan?

  Because of the physical material?

• 2:30:20Speaker 01

  Because of the physical material itself. I mean, I'm, at the end of the day, a physicalist. You know, I mean, I, I don't like all the anecdotes. I mean, a thousand anecdotes make a good story, good campfire. I mean, I think there's statistical value in people seeing the same thing again and again, and, and there's a, there's a truth to it. But as, you know, and I can believe anything I want to around that, and many of the statements that I'm purported to have said are around my beliefs. As opposed to when I put on my scientist hat and I try to convince another scientist, I can only provide this data and this evidence, and I don't have yet these materials.

• 2:30:59Speaker 01

  Now, maybe they exist, and maybe, you know, people like David Grush will be able to pry them out of the clammy hands of those who want to keep it where it is. But, give me one piece of that, and I will do wonders with it.

• 2:31:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:18Speaker 01

  I mean, that's why I'm so excited about the UAP Disclosure Act, if it ends up becoming law, because there will be this ability to start to maybe eke some of this out. And again, it's, the reason why I think this commercial opportunity is the direction we want to go, where we have a sort of public-private partnership, is that the defense budget in and of itself is a zero-sum game. We're taking money from one program to give to another. You know, whether you're taking it from your taxes, you're taking it from veterans', you know, insurance, et cetera, it's a zero-sum game. Whereas if you bring the investment community in, now you're bringing in people who are willing to take a chance and willing to take a risk, and you're not using the public's money anymore.

• 2:32:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:32:03Speaker 01

  And so, and that excites, I mean, me, as a, the reason why I wanted to go back to Stanford is because the entrepreneurial environment there, and now, which is actually almost homegrown here in Austin, is really what drives innovation. And so I want to excite that kind of community. And again, the Seoul Foundation is a place where we can bring people in, and we've got investors who show up now, who are talking to people about their ideas and what would we do with this. And so, you, you, it almost has now a self-propelling movement, where I don't need to be standing on a, you know, wooden box somewhere in the middle of the park, saying, you know, look at this, look at this.

• 2:32:48Speaker 01

  People are just doing it now. There's now a whole, almost a cottage industry of small groups or formalized groups who are doing this independently now. So it's almost like, it's inevitable. So Skywatcher, as an example, you probably know the Skywatcher group.

• 2:33:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've heard of it.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  And Jake Barber.

• 2:33:09Joe Rogan?

  Didn't they just stop operations? Did something happen?

• 2:33:12Speaker 01

  No, it's strange, because people said, oh, we stopped. No, actually, it had been. It had been determined from the beginning that we were going to go from January until July or August and collect data. And now we're in the, okay, what is the data mean phase? Where we're literally going through the data, looking at the data files and trying to, as I said before, we're filtering the data, we're looking for the obvious mistakes, et cetera. And so, no, they have not stopped. Yeah, there was something on Twitter about, something about the equipment. I forget. No, so James Fowler, one of the guys who brought a lot of his equipment and technology

• 2:33:54Speaker 01

  to us, decided that he wanted to basically go off and work in a DOD capacity as opposed to the research capacity. But he's still advising us. I was just on a phone call, a Zoom call with him last week, going over the data files. So, explain this sky watcher thing to people, because it sounds insane. Well, the idea behind it was that there might be ways to send a signal and get things to show up. Right. And James Fowler claimed that he had such a thing. I was at one of the events where something showed up.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  It was transient, momentary, but indisputable. But it's just like- What did it look like? It was just a silver ball moving quickly through several frames of a video, which was not fast enough, frankly, to pick it up. We just saw it move. It went that way and then- You didn't see it with your naked eye? No, I didn't see it with the naked eye. Which, of course, is a problem. Do they sometimes see things with the naked eye? One guy did, yeah. One guy? Oh, I mean- So are these things variable in their appearance? I wish I had my, I don't have my phone here. But we do have a picture of one next to the helicopter, about 200 feet away, and it's

• 2:35:15Speaker 01

  just kind of a fuzzy white blob against a blue sky. But it was there, you know, and it's not a cloud and it's not a balloon. You know, it's not discernible as anything obvious, but it was there and it happened during one of these events, out in the middle of the desert. And so, you know, so the idea is, behind Skywatcher, is to see if there are ways to get them to show up, and if so, in a reproducible manner, and then have the right kind of simultaneous multi-censor capabilities to measure it, meaning radar, IR, visual, people on the ground.

• 2:36:00Joe Rogan?

  What are they sending to get these things to go? What signal?

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  Um, James has a signal that unfortunately he won't, um, I don't know what it is.

• 2:36:09Joe Rogan?

  He won't let everybody know what the bat signal is?

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you know, I mean, maybe, yeah, exactly. I mean, it sounds kind of silly, but, I mean, why would you put that out on the internet? Because, you know, you might render it useless. They're like, "Oh, I don't gotta show up." Everybody's, everybody's using it now.

• 2:36:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you think it's a trick? Like, it tricks them into showing up?

• 2:36:28Speaker 01

  I don't know. I really don't.

• 2:36:30Joe Rogan?

  Don't you think they'd be smarter than that?

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  Well, that tells you something maybe about the level of smarts that might be incorporated into these, let's say, dumber machines.

• 2:36:39Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah. That was exactly my thought. It's like, why would you show up when you know what it is, unless there's a reason you're basically trying to train the monkeys what to do? Maybe you're tricking the monkeys into sending, I, I don't know.

• 2:36:57Joe Rogan?

  But isn't there a group of people that just go out and they, just using their mind? They meditate?

• 2:37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:05Joe Rogan?

  And supposedly, they have some success as well?

• 2:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's the CE5 groups that do that. And I've never participated in any of that, because I don't, I don't know how to measure it.

• 2:37:17Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:37:18Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm more than willing to believe that there are technologies capable of measuring thoughts at a distance that might be, you know, some super advanced. I don't believe that you have to call it telepathy and magic. I think that there's, you know, if such a thing happens, that there is a technology that might be able to read at a distance.

• 2:37:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:39Speaker 01

  I have no problem with that.

• 2:37:41Joe Rogan?

  I don't have a problem with that either. I don't have a problem with the idea that consciousness is kind of vaguely and barely understood. And whatever our relationship to the universe itself and reality itself through consciousness is, it's not fully defined. And also, it might evolve, just like all of our other intellectual capabilities.

• 2:38:07Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, think of it this way. You know, you and I are interacting with each other through quantum waves. I, my meat brain sees you as an object, but yet, everything that you are sits in quantum spacetime down at the Planck level, and you're not even mass. You're just a series of, I mean, in some people's minds, vibrating fields and objects. And so, we have sensors that see and hear each other and think about each other, but our consciousness somehow is embedded in spacetime. And so, who's to say that there's not signals passing to and from that are vaguely able to be picked up by our meat brains that we don't necessarily appreciate?

• 2:38:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:38:47Speaker 01

  Right? So that just because I can't think at you and you can't hear me, doesn't mean that there aren't perhaps brain organizations of some people that are a little bit better at hearing the echo than others.

• 2:39:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is also probably the reason why when you go to the woods and there's no cellphone signals, the world feels different.

• 2:39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:07Joe Rogan?

  Because you're probably experiencing a bunch of signals that your brain vaguely interacts with.

• 2:39:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:13Joe Rogan?

  That, you know, might not even necessarily be good for you.

• 2:39:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:17Joe Rogan?

  But they're out there, and they're a part of the world that you live in.

• 2:39:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  And you just, you can't, you don't have a radio.

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:23Joe Rogan?

  Right? So you're not like tuning into them. You don't have a cellphone, so you can't just like make calls with it, but you're experiencing it.

• 2:39:29Speaker 01

  Right. Well, and, you know, our civilization is drowning us in constant noise.

• 2:39:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:36Speaker 01

  And so, maybe, you know, that drowns it out, and that's why meditation is why people claim that they can interact with other things. I don't know.

• 2:39:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know either. One, I saw an interview that you did where you were describing the sighting over, off the coast of San Diego in 2004, the Nimitz sighting, where you said that the amount of power, why don't you describe it? So the amount of power that that thing had. To use to move the way it did.

• 2:40:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Which is on radar.

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  It's on radar. So, um, so these are actually calculations by Kevin Newt, a physicist from the University of Albany, um, and a published paper. Again, just speculation. But what he basically said was, how much power would it take to instantaneously accelerate from 50 feet over the ocean to 50 miles above the earth, whatever the number was, and instantaneously decelerate? So it's not just the amount of power to lift something. It's the amount of power to accelerate and decelerate instantaneously. And so you can make simple physical calculations of a one-ton object, let's say, and it's more than the

• 2:40:49Speaker 01

  nuclear output of the United States for a year. And yet, these things seem capable of doing that at will. So where are they getting the energy from? And I remember asking Hal, a question like this years ago, we were stepping into a, Hal put off, stepping into an elevator, and we were talking about his ideas about how these things might move. And I said, so they're cheating somehow, aren't they? And his answer was, from our point of view, they're cheating. From their point of view, they're just using the physics that we don't understand yet.

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  So where's the energy coming from? What are they doing? And, and so that might be, as a for instance, a reason why you don't want everybody having access to it.

• 2:41:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:30Speaker 01

  Because any one of those objects is a, is worse than a thermonuclear bomb. You shoot one of those things at a city, and that's the end of the city. And if anybody could do it, you know?

• 2:41:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe that's the, the step of human evolution, of the, the evolution of our society and civilization, is that AI has to come into power before we have access to all this other stuff.

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:41:53Joe Rogan?

  That we do need an AI government structure.

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:41:56Joe Rogan?

  And that we do no longer require military intervention and all, all the shit that is

• 2:42:01Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 2:42:02Joe Rogan?

  The bane of civilization today.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:42:04Joe Rogan?

  Because if you, you ask the average person today, um, is, do you envision a world where war doesn't exist? Most people are saying no.

• 2:42:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:13Joe Rogan?

  The vast majority, except for a few delusional hippies, they're gonna say no. Right? But if you ask them, okay, given this super intelligent AI takes over the world and proves to be benevolent and really just wants to accentuate the life of

• 2:42:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:30Joe Rogan?

  human beings on earth and make it better for everybody. Then yes.

• 2:42:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:34Joe Rogan?

  Then 100% yes.

• 2:42:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Why would it want war?

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:37Joe Rogan?

  Right? So maybe something like that has to take place before we get to a situation where, okay, this is how you really travel.

• 2:42:45Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:42:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay, now that you're not going to war anymore, listen.

• 2:42:49Speaker 01

  But you can already-

• 2:42:50Joe Rogan?

  About gravity bubbles.

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  You can already imagine the negatives, where people will say, oh, well, it's the, i- i- it's the, it's the apocalyptic nanny state.

• 2:43:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:43:02Speaker 01

  Right, where AI just basically takes care of you and humans devolve into something, which is why I think-

• 2:43:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:08Speaker 01

  A merger of human intellect with this, where it's a synergy as opposed to an either-or. I don't want to be nanny-stated either.

• 2:43:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  I want to use it to explore ideas or explore pleasure. I mean, I'm finding people want to be hedonistic and, you know, participate in virtual parties all day long-

• 2:43:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  For all I care. I don't care.

• 2:43:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  But I think giving people the option to do whatever it is that they want to do, it's the most, um, I don't know, what's the, it's the most liberal and conservative way of living, because you're allowed to do what you want to do. But we're not, because we're living at the behest of so many other strictures.

• 2:43:54Joe Rogan?

  Always, yeah. Um, last question. What do you, what's your take on the Bob Lazar story?

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  Elements of truth, um, with a healthy dose of misinformation that perhaps he was provided.

• 2:44:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:44:16Speaker 01

  I don't think that he's entirely lying. He seems to know enough about things that the average person wouldn't know, but, you know, I've heard from Eric Davis and others saying, oh, he's a this, he's a that. I don't know, because, you know, i- it's like, that's why there are great people like Richard Dolan, who, who's a, you know, a wonderful writer of the history of the area, or people like Robert Powell or Michael Swords, who write just the facts, not coming to too many conclusions. Um-

• 2:44:56Speaker 01

  I don't live in that world. That's, it's, it's not my specialty. My specialty is working with data and analyzing things and bringing rigorous science to it so that I can convince another scientist what is right or what is wrong. Because I won't be happy, I mean, I'm pretty sure of what I know, but I want to validate that to my colleagues, if only to be able to say, "I told you so."

• 2:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:45:23Speaker 01

  Right? There's a little bit of human pettiness in there.

• 2:45:25Joe Rogan?

  (laughing) A little bit of pettiness is great motivation.

• 2:45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, you know, but, but that's, I think, again, enabling people to live in a world like that, where you can talk about these ideas without being ridiculed, is really, I think, the objective of what science should be and what open-minded, you know, non-theologically dogmatic approaches should be. It's, it's like, accuse a scientist of being a priest, and that's the best way to really upset them.

• 2:45:55Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  But pointing out that what they're doing is mimicking dogma and priesthood is the only way to shame them into doing the right thing.

• 2:46:05Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 2:46:09Joe Rogan?

  It does. It does. Well, listen, man, I'm glad we finally did this.

• 2:46:14Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you.

• 2:46:15Joe Rogan?

  Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for all the research that you're, you're currently involved in and all the stuff that you've done, and it's been amazing to talk to you. I really appreciate it.

• 2:46:23Speaker 01

  Same as well. Thank you.

• 2:46:25Joe Rogan?

  Thank you so much. All right. Bye, everybody.

• 2:46:41Speaker 03

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