The Great Condiment Showdown, Joe’s Big Restaurant Gamble, and Major Food Influencer Controversy

This week of The Chef’s Cut kicks off with an important debate: which condiment in your fridge would come out on top in a battle of the bottles? They tell us which condiment ranks atop their own favorites, and throw it to the listeners to help build a bracket of champions. Plus, we discuss: Fork It or Forget It: Dining al fresco Whisk Takers: Joe tell us about the biggest career bet he made on himself Line Check: Discussing the San Francisco chef who lost his job after calling out an influencer in his own restaurant Walk-In Confession: Adrienne shares the story of her most successful kitchen prank Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hello, welcome back to The Chef's Cut. I'm Adrian Cheatham.

• 0:07Joe Flamm?

  And I'm Joe Flamm. Always great to be back.

• 0:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  So good to see you again.

• 0:12Joe Flamm?

  Absolute pleasure.

• 0:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it's good to be home. God, traveling for so long. I'm so happy to be back.

• 0:18Joe Flamm?

  You said you were traveling for work.

• 0:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, some vacation, but two work projects.

• 0:23Joe Flamm?

  But like, what is work in Portugal?

• 0:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe!

• 0:27Joe Flamm?

  Portuguese. Do you have Portugal skills? What are you, tinning fish with the locals?

• 0:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  And building fires and grilling sardines.

• 0:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like what was, what was work?

• 0:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, Joe, like you know what I do.

• 0:38Joe Flamm?

  No one knows what you do. No one knows what you do.

• 0:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, you absolutely know what I do.

• 0:43Joe Flamm?

  You told me, you like told me once what you, I think you actually do. And it was like, you know, like on Top Chef, we didn't have phones. I couldn't record it and look it up. So it's like, you know, it's one of those things like, I'm assuming you work for, you know, the DOJ in some capacity that you're not allowed to speak about.

• 0:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  I work in that white building downtown, you know?

• 1:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like I'm a nondescript floor.

• 1:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, exactly. A floor that doesn't exist. Oh, stop. You're crazy. You know what I do. And we'll talk about it someday. Just, just not today.

• 1:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

• 1:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  But I am so, so glad to be back. Getting some recipe testing done, getting ready for this food festival, um, the family reunion, which your sous chef is coming to work with me.

• 1:25Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, you're taking taco to the family reunion.

• 1:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, I can't wait. Taekwon is great. We're gonna have a good time.

• 1:31Joe Flamm?

  Gonna be awesome. He's gonna.

• 1:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  I hope he's, he's good to do a thousand portions of lobster beignets, so.

• 1:37Joe Flamm?

  Oh, dude, my boy stays ready.

• 1:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Good.

• 1:39Joe Flamm?

  He'll be, he'll be, he only, he knows, he only knows how to run, so it'll be.

• 1:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Have knives, will travel.

• 1:44Joe Flamm?

  That's it. That's it, man. That's, that's the deal.

• 1:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you've been super busy. You had a ton of events recently.

• 1:50Joe Flamm?

  Man, we had the Girl to Goat 15th Anniversary Dinner, which was crazy. It was Steph there. Crazy that that place is 15 years old. We had our event for the Joey Fecchi Foundation. We had, I had a friend in town, we just did a dinner the other night, who was in town from Charleston, from his restaurant, Connie Pazo. Steph and I did another charity dinner together, too.

• 2:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:10Joe Flamm?

  Somewhere.

• 2:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're a celebrity chef. You're like the busiest man in restaurant business.

• 2:14Joe Flamm?

  You know, July was slapping. It's, it's not that I'm the busiest man. I might be the worst at scheduling men in restaurants. I think it's more, more of it. It's, you know, but you know how it is. I feel like with us in this business, it's always this very feast or famine. You have 100 things going on or you got nothing going on.

• 2:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that is so true. That is so true. And with that in mind, we've got a lot of really fun topics. This week, we're going to talk about the condiment showdown, that we are introducing the worldwide battle to determine the winner across all nations. We're going to debate dining al fresco versus indoors. Which side are you on? And we're going to introduce a new segment called Whisk Takers, where we talk about career risks, swinging for the fences, and praying to God it all works out. We're also going to get into the influencer debate about the San Francisco influencer and the chef that kicked her out and got fired as a result. So, as you know, I was traveling, Joe, and one thing that I really took for granted, that I would have never thought that I would have missed,

• 3:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  until I came back home and saw it in my refrigerator, you know what it is? Yellow mustard.

• 3:20Joe Flamm?

  Yellow mustard? Really? That's the one?

• 3:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's, I was like, holy shit. I've had the same thing of yellow mustard for probably three, four years in my fridge. And I reached past it for like spicy brown, Dijon, horseradish mustard, all grainy mustard.

• 3:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I'm like a six mustard fridge.

• 3:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. But the yellow mustard has just been chilling there. And I felt like I really neglected my yellow mustard. And I started using it again this week, since I've been back. And I'm, I, I, I love yellow mustard.

• 3:52Joe Flamm?

  The yellow mustard is so, it's the crisp white tea of condiments. You know what I mean? Like you don't appreciate it till you don't have it.

• 4:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 4:01Joe Flamm?

  Man, all I really need in this bag to travel with is like a crisp white tea.

• 4:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 4:07Joe Flamm?

  Fine for any occasion.

• 4:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 4:09Joe Flamm?

  I mean, it does so much, you know, it's a binder. You can make a vinaigrette out of it. It's, it makes everything kinda taste good.

• 4:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? That turkey's like a day older than it should be. That mustard on it, that'd be alright.

• 4:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I mean, what are expiration dates?

• 4:22Joe Flamm?

  Throw a little onion in that bad boy, you know what I mean? Like, I got a dipping sauce.

• 4:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Man, you can, I literally, it is like the workhorse of my condiment selection and I have like shelves of, I have more condiments than anything else in my refrigerator, like legit.

• 4:35Joe Flamm?

  Let me ask you a question.

• 4:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 4:38Joe Flamm?

  Do you have ketchup in your fridge?

• 4:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  I actually, I think I do, but I don't use it that much, but I have it because you have to have it. How can you not have it?

• 4:47Joe Flamm?

  We, I, we never had ketchup in our fridge until we had kids.

• 4:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Really?

• 4:51Joe Flamm?

  And I remember, and we didn't even realize it. I had some, I had a friend over, we were doing something, uh, where we lived at our apartment together, be my wife, and they were like, oh, like, and they were like, on the fridge. I'm like, what are you looking for? And they were like, ketchup. And I was like,

• 5:06Joe Flamm?

  Do you not have ketchup? I was like, I don't think so.

• 5:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's crazy.

• 5:10Joe Flamm?

  Have ketchup? I'm like, I don't know. We've never owned any ketchup.

• 5:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Do you, so you don't put it on anything? Like, that's true. Day to day, what are you putting it on?

• 5:19Joe Flamm?

  Um, if you're a six-year-old child, everything.

• 5:23Joe Flamm?

  Everything. You're like, oh, I'll have some cinnamon toast with ketchup.

• 5:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:28Joe Flamm?

  But yeah, it's just a condiment I never really use. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's one of those weird ones. But now that I have kids, it's like, especially if other people's kids come to my house, they're like, oh, do you have ketchup?

• 5:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 5:38Joe Flamm?

  I made you a peanut butter and jelly.

• 5:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  The last container of ketchup I had actually started to turn brown. That's how long I had it and didn't use it. And I went to finally use it one day and I squeezed some out and I was like, oh dear God, it should not be that color. I ruined like half of my french fries too.

• 5:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  So that was, that was a bummer. So I do keep some ketchup around, but I can't say I use it that much. So Joe, speaking of condiments though, what, to you, what is the best condiment ever created?

• 6:10Joe Flamm?

  Okay, I guess my question is, is mayonnaise considered a condiment?

• 6:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm, I would say it is.

• 6:19Joe Flamm?

  Cause it's hard to go against, I think, much akin to yellow mustard. And I mean, you could make the case that yellow mustard, you can make mayonnaise with yellow mustard, right? You could throw one together. So therefore, I think by transitive powers, it has to be the greatest condiment. I think, but if you're talking like actual condiments, like an actual sauce, like it's a made sauce of some sort. It's a ketchup barbecue sauce, maipoi, whatever, any of those things.

• 6:47Joe Flamm?

  Barbecue sauce is hard to beat, man.

• 6:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ooh.

• 6:50Joe Flamm?

  Like really good barbecue sauce is hard to beat. It makes everything good.

• 6:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Joe Flamm?

  And like, like, you know, it would be you and Eric, we're talking like late night food after work. It's like, you know, you have something, it's supposed to sit in the fridge a couple of days. It gets a little bit dry, you know what I mean? Cause it's like a pork chop that's like got three days on it. It's like you throw that shit in some barbecue sauce, you heat that up a little bit.

• 7:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Joe Flamm?

  And you're like, you're like halfway to pulled pork in your mind at least. You're like, even if it's tough as shit.

• 7:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Like I've eaten all the legs and thighs off my chicken and I'm just left with like two dried chicken breasts on this like store bought rotisserie chicken. Some barbecue sauce will cure that. That's true.

• 7:27Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it'll cure a lot of problems. So that's why it's like the barbecue sauce for me. And it's also like, I'm not a ketchup and fries person. I'm a barbecue sauce and fries person.

• 7:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 7:38Joe Flamm?

  And I will say, one of my favorite things is when I was 15, I worked at this steakhouse for like three months. That was like, you know, on 111th street, like across the street from the cemetery. And my older sister worked there. So she would like drive me to work. Like I was a busboy in the smoking section.

• 7:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God.

• 7:54Joe Flamm?

  But for lunch, they would let you order a sandwich, but the sandwiches came with these chips. And the chips were like house made chips that were super good. And then a cup of warm barbecue sauce on the side. And like just dipping fresh chips and warm barbecue sauce. Like it's still like, like when I have those two things together, it's like so weirdly nostalgic and like sadly delicious to me. It's like one of my favorite like flavor combinations of like super simple things.

• 8:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's how I feel about opening up a small bag of chips, like a personal size and shaking some Tabasco into it. Cause you never know which chips are gonna have a lot, which chips are gonna have a little. You'll have a little pool of it at the bottom and a couple of chips might be soggy and super spicy, but oh, that is how I feel.

• 8:41Joe Flamm?

  Are you, are you doing that over a salt and vinegar chip too?

• 8:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no, that, that's, that's like, that's assault. That is palate assault. That is like class one felony. Like, I'm sure it's delicious, but like, I wouldn't be able to taste anything. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to taste anything for the rest of the day.

• 8:59Joe Flamm?

  Move I've literally only seen on public transit.

• 9:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a hard life right there. It's, you, you're trying to feel something.

• 9:09Joe Flamm?

  So what's, what's your one? What's your one?

• 9:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, okay. So out of the regular, mayonnaise is heavy in my rotation because I do, I hated it as a kid. Absolutely would not touch it. And then one day in like my thirties or twenties or something, I was like, I kinda like mayonnaise. So I do wind up using that a lot. Tuna salad, chicken salad, potato salad, a little smear on a sandwich. I dip my french fries in it. I love it. But the condiment that I replace in my refrigerator more than anything else I've noticed is actually chili crisp.

• 9:42Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 9:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Laogun Ma chili crisp. I'm not talking about one of these like fancy chefy chili crisps, which are good. Don't get me wrong. But I want that six ninety-nine Laogun Ma. Couldn't get it for like two years. They weren't shipping it out of the country, you know, into the US. And I was like losing my mind. Luckily I had a backup in my pantry, but that is the condiment that I realize I go through the absolute most.

• 10:09Joe Flamm?

  I also feel though, just uh, I, I'm not, I love that one, but I also feel like with that one, you have to use a lot of it.

• 10:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Joe Flamm?

  You rip through it. You know what I mean?

• 10:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's true.

• 10:20Joe Flamm?

  Like if you do that on eggs, you're using four tablespoons.

• 10:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 10:24Joe Flamm?

  You ate four tablespoons of barbecue sauce at eggs, people would like talk about you until you.

• 10:32Joe Flamm?

  That would be the only thing people spoke about at your funeral. They'd be like, oh yeah, she was super nice. But it's like, did you remember how you she used to fucking eat eggs? For like four tablespoons of barbecue sauce? It's like, yeah, what was fucking? Is that what killed?

• 10:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God. Yeah, I you're right. It's like you do have to use so much of it and it's weirdly addictive. Like it's got just enough of that, like MSG kind of feeling that your body's like, oh, I need another hit. Oh, I need another hit.

• 10:57Joe Flamm?

  Textural too.

• 10:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Joe Flamm?

  So you're like, oh, I'll take some more of that. I want a little more crunch. I want a little more heat. And it's not like spicy spicy.

• 11:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 11:05Joe Flamm?

  You're just like, oh, I can keep ripping through this. But yeah, that's, that's a good one. And that's a workhorse one. And kind of like when we were talking churri with Eric, where it's like, that's a three meals.

• 11:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Legit, legit chimichurri. I can picture that on every meal of the day from breakfast to dinner. Chili crisp. I can also see on eggs in the morning, on a sandwich or something for lunch. I can see it. You know, on a bowl of rice or some plain protein at night, like when I get home from work.

• 11:32Joe Flamm?

  It's like you throw that shit in mayonnaise and it's like, oh, look at me, look at me chefing over here.

• 11:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Heaven.

• 11:39Joe Flamm?

  Young Paul Perdomo over here.

• 11:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that. So you know what, Joe? I say we take this to social media and see what other people think. I will pull the top sixteen global condiments. I'll check them out based on sales and popularity.

• 11:53Joe Flamm?

  Soy, soy sauce, soy sauce, a condiment?

• 11:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I, I mean, I think it should be in there.

• 11:59Joe Flamm?

  If that is, it's gotta be, that's gotta be a top, a top.

• 12:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that'd be like a one seed.

• 12:04Joe Flamm?

  Like, like global condiments.

• 12:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:07Joe Flamm?

  That's gotta be up there.

• 12:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's gotta be a one seed.

• 12:10Joe Flamm?

  That's gotta be a super high ranking, uh, the global condiment scale. I imagine some sort of aioli mayonnaise type thing has to be up there. And some sort of hot sauce condiment has to be up there. Barbecue sauce is not going to be a top five because that's like purely American.

• 12:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay, that's a good point. The closest thing is like HP sauce in the UK.

• 12:33Joe Flamm?

  No.

• 12:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's more like a one, like steak sauce to me.

• 12:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 12:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's the closest I can think of.

• 12:40Joe Flamm?

  That is outrageous statement.

• 12:45Joe Flamm?

  That's the equivalent of saying like, oh, like this is the kind of closest thing they have to professional basketball here and like pointing at a game of cricket.

• 12:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 12:57Joe Flamm?

  Like, that is, that is absolute insane work that HP sauce is close to barbecue sauce.

• 13:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I said, it's the closest thing I can think of.

• 13:06Joe Flamm?

  Your Irish ancestors are punching the earth right now that you said that.

• 13:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  They probably are. I've said a lot of things that get their goat. But you know what? Let's take this to Instagram. We'll do a poll. We'll get people's thoughts on their favorite condiments. And then we will create brackets, Joe. I know you're a big sports fan, so we will create brackets and we will have these condiments go head to head until we settle the debate on the global winner. How about that?

• 13:32Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I am. I am curious what's number one just by the numbers, though.

• 13:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, me too. I'll report back with that.

• 13:38Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we'll have to put that. We'll get that live.

• 13:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, yeah.

• 13:43Joe Flamm?

  So first today, let's start with a little conflict.

• 13:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ooh, I'm here for it.

• 13:47Joe Flamm?

  A little bit of fork and then forget it age.

• 13:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yes. Ooh, what do you got?

• 13:51Joe Flamm?

  We've had some controversial ones lately. We've, uh, we've really got the people going.

• 13:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  We really have.

• 13:58Joe Flamm?

  And I told you the other day when I, when I, when I lined up that raw milk one, it was gonna be spicy. And boy, oh, boy, that was the spiciest glass of milk anybody ever did have.

• 14:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, yeah. But you know what? I said what I said. I, I can't drink milk, just like you. So barrel proof, but.

• 14:15Joe Flamm?

  All right. So I got one for you today. Not quite as controversial, but it is the time of year for this conversation. I feel like it's conver- it's controversial, especially if you're in a relationship and one of you is this person or one of you isn't. Fork it or forget it, eating outside.

• 14:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like at a restaurant?

• 14:33Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Are you a patio person?

• 14:37Joe Flamm?

  Summertime, it's New York, we're walking through Cafe Balloon, walk up, they got a two top. Let's cheat them. Would you like to be inside or outside?

• 14:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  I would prefer inside.

• 14:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  I prefer to eat in. I don't know what it is. I do like if I'm having a cup of coffee, okay, I'll sit outside. But if I'm eating a full meal, I don't know. It's just, I don't want all the exhaust from people's cars like blowing on my food. I don't know. It's just, it's, it doesn't appeal to me in the same way. I see gangs of people eating outside and I'm like, a bird could just fly over you right now.

• 15:10Joe Flamm?

  There's two camps here. There's people who are like, it is fifty-five degrees, like give me that outside table.

• 15:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 15:16Joe Flamm?

  I gotta have it. It's a hundred and five degrees. They're like, oh, man, just, it's fine.

• 15:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Joe Flamm?

  Put an umbrella up. I'm good.

• 15:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'm a forget it.

• 15:24Joe Flamm?

  Pour me some water, I'll roll with.

• 15:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  I, I say forget it, but that's just me. Again, coffee, outside.

• 15:30Joe Flamm?

  I'm with you. I feel like especially like, you know, my, my thing is like, if a fork and knife is involved, I would like to be inside.

• 15:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a good threshold.

• 15:39Joe Flamm?

  That's, that's my threshold. You know, like drinks patio, fuck yeah, that's awesome. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if it's thirty-two degrees outside, like having beers by a mountain. I've, I've sat in my backyard with friends when it was, you know, three inches of snow on the ground and we had a fire going. And you know what I mean? Hung out all night. It was fantastic.

• 15:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Chicago shit right there.

• 15:58Joe Flamm?

  Like, yeah. And it, it's great, but it's like, I feel like a fork and knife's involved. If I have the option, I'd like to be inside. Now, if it's a handheld, we're eating smoked shrimp on the hood of my car at Kellyman Fisheries, like down, let's go. Let's grow. Throw them fucking shells off the bridge, H. All day.

• 16:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  All day.

• 16:16Joe Flamm?

  But if I gotta use a fork and knife, and they're like, would you like to be inside or outside? It's like, you, you can put my sweaty ass inside. Thank you very much. Save that table outside for somebody who wants it.

• 16:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I couldn't articulate it that way, but I love using that as a threshold. If a fork and knife is involved, boom, inside. Cause I can do drinks outside, like you said, maybe even, maybe even a basket of fries. But if I'm getting a Caesar salad with my fries, I'm inside.

• 16:41Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I'm, so I'm, I'm married to a let's eat outside person.

• 16:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 16:46Joe Flamm?

  So this has come to a head over years and, uh, we were, we were in Puerto Rico at one time. And we went to this restaurant. It's really cute on the beach, right? Like made the reservation and, uh, we get there and she knows I don't want to eat outside. It's like feet in the sand too, which I'm just like. No, I'm not in. So we walk in, they're like, hey, you have a reservation? We're like, yeah. And they're like, would you like to eat inside or outside? She's like, it's okay. We can eat inside. I know you don't really want to eat outside. I'm like, that's fine. It's whatever. And they were like, well, we don't actually have any reservations inside.

• 17:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 17:21Joe Flamm?

  So you have to eat outside. I was like, all right. And so then they they walked us in and this this restaurant was like maybe thirty seats. So we walk in, we realize they have a wedding going on inside. So every seat inside is filled with this wedding. All these people dressed in white, like beach wedding, right? So they bring us outside. We go sit outside. We're sitting on the beach under a palm tree. It's very beautiful. And we're sitting there for a while. We're having a drink and she's like, what? I go, it's just weird to me. I go, it's just wild. You take reservations for outside. When I go, I'm like, I'm like, they don't have a seat inside for anyone.

• 17:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 17:57Joe Flamm?

  What if something happens?

• 17:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 17:59Joe Flamm?

  I go, what if it rains? She's like, I don't know. Just like it must not rain here. I'm like, it it rains here.

• 18:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's tropical.

• 18:08Joe Flamm?

  She's like, I don't know. I guess they're not worried about it. Like, I don't know why you're worried about it. You don't work here. And I'm like, oh, just whatever. So we're we get into our meal. We're halfway through our meal and

• 18:20Joe Flamm?

  starts pouring, right?

• 18:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God.

• 18:22Joe Flamm?

  I've never, I don't know if I've ever been happier in my life. Cause I was just like, this is the perfect scenario of like proving my point.

• 18:30Joe Flamm?

  So they come and get us. I'm laughing hysterically. They're like, come on, come on, we'll move you inside. And we're like, no, like you can't move us inside. There's nowhere to move us. But we're only halfway through our dinner and this was like pre-Uber. So the only way out of there was getting a taxi. So they had a call for us. So they're like, no, no, no, your meal's not over yet. Cause they wanted us to pay for the whole dinner.

• 18:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, yeah.

• 18:51Joe Flamm?

  So like they wouldn't call us a taxi. So they move us inside.

• 18:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they're holding you hostage.

• 18:56Joe Flamm?

  So then it's me, hell, and this wedding.

• 19:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's not awkward at all.

• 19:02Joe Flamm?

  And we're just jammed in the corner of this wedding. And like, at one point, I had to go up to the bathroom, and it's one of those restaurants where there's like, one unisex bathroom. So I'm like, waiting in line with all like, the aunts and uncles just standing there. I'm the only one not wearing all white. And I'm also like, huge. So I look ridiculous. And I'm just like, and it looks like I crashed their wedding. And like, I'm in the wrong on this. And I'm like, I want to leave so bad. So bad.

• 19:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  I want to leave as much as you don't want me here.

• 19:27Joe Flamm?

  Right. I will swim across this ocean to get out of this restaurant right now. But it's, that's what I always think of, what I think of, like, the, the great debate of eating inside or outside, where it's like, I'm gonna take the inside of it.

• 19:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yep. Because you know what? If it does start raining, you're good.

• 19:41Joe Flamm?

  Wow, we actually agree, Adrienne.

• 19:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, that's rare. That is so rare. Who knew a controversial topic would land on this side?

• 19:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  So this week, I want to get your thoughts. Let's introduce a new segment, and I'd like to call this one Whisk Takers. Ah, I get it.

• 19:58Joe Flamm?

  Did you say whisk?

• 19:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  I did. Like whisk, but like risk takers?

• 20:02Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, I get it. That, like...

• 20:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Come on, you know me.

• 20:08Joe Flamm?

  What, uh, why, though? Like, what, what do we, okay, first of all, what the fuck?

• 20:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  You have no sense of humor.

• 20:14Joe Flamm?

  I, I do. Uh, but like, one, what are we, what are we talking about? What is whisk takers? Is this times when we just like dunked on pastry chefs? Or like, where, where, where are we at here?

• 20:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  We stole their equipment? Well, funny, you should mention it.

• 20:29Joe Flamm?

  Time I sold snacks for pastry chefs could be a trillion episodes.

• 20:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, oh, we should get some of those on here for sure. But the point is that, like, in our careers, in everybody's careers, there's risks, there's gambles, and we pray that they work out. And you've taken some big swings in your career. And to me, it looks like they've all paid off. And you've been very successful with your restaurants, with your career in general. But maybe when you were starting these things, it didn't seem so certain at the time. So I want to talk about a risk that you took in your career, and was it worth it? Did it work out? What if it didn't work out? Would the risk have been worth it?

• 21:07Joe Flamm?

  Do we have to call it whisk takers?

• 21:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm calling it whisk takers.

• 21:12Joe Flamm?

  I think it is a really good thing. I think, I mean, we, this is... Like, our careers are basically just taking risks, right? You know, I remember, you know, my best friend opened his first restaurant and he was like, I called him the night before and he was really nervous about it. And it's like, yeah, the whole thing's a gamble, right? Because like, if this doesn't work out, then the house you bought didn't work out. And then the other things you have to pay for didn't work out. And it's a domino effect. And I remember, you know, we were talking about it and we're like, but that's the whole play, right? You know, when we come through this industry, if you don't have money, if you don't have anything else, like, your only bet is you. So at some point, the idea is, you gotta push all the chips.

• 21:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well said. So you're betting on yourself. I like that.

• 21:52Joe Flamm?

  That's it. You know, that's what I talk to my cooks about still to this day. It's like, this is all an investment in yourself because that's the only bet you got, right? Is that you're just gonna take you, throw that out there and hope for the best. And I think for me, you know, obviously when I came off a top chef, I was, I was running Spiaja still and I knew I wanted to open my own restaurant. And so I had talked to some groups, I talked to some different people. And I was working for a really big restaurant group at the time. I was working for Levy and they're, they're a massive, massive group. You know, they're a $2 billion company. And I'd been there for five and a half years. I had a great relationship with them. I loved running Spiaja. You know what I mean? I love my job. You came in there a bunch of times. You know, you'd know how fun it was.

• 22:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that was a great place to hang out.

• 22:36Joe Flamm?

  And it was great people, you know what I mean? And so they had sat me down and they said, hey, we'll give you a restaurant. Whatever you want, wherever you want, like, we'll write a check. Like, just let us know. And there was a lot of security there, right? Because it was like, it was a good job. I made good money. You know what I mean? It was like, everything was good. I knew what it was. But in the back of my head, I was like, I won't really own that restaurant.

• 23:03Joe Flamm?

  Like, I wanted a seat at the table. I wanted to be able to figure out not only... How like if I if I built a restaurant, like how that restaurant functioned and moved and operated, how we dealt with each other, but also like if we grew from that, like I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to be a part of ownership. I wanted to have a full seat at the table of like, I'm not just deciding the fate of my restaurant, but like if we have a group like that group.

• 23:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah.

• 23:30Joe Flamm?

  And so there was a lot of known entities in town, big groups who I talked to who were interested in doing something with me that were, you know, I was like, these are really safe bets. You know what I mean? I know they're great. There were people I liked. And when I opened my restaurant, I ended up partnering with three people who they had one restaurant in town and I didn't even really know them that well. I knew one of them, my partner Kara. She did PR for me when I was at Spiaja when I first started. And that's how Kara and I met. She left PR to open a restaurant with her husband and her husband's cousin, Steve, who are all my three business partners right now. And their background wasn't restaurants, you know? Frank's a lawyer, Steve's an accountant, Kara did PR.

• 24:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 24:09Joe Flamm?

  But I liked the idea of that, you know, all four of us were the same age and we were all kind of at the same point. And I was like, this will be a real voice for me if I go with these people. But it wasn't something tried and true. It was like, this is a really big risk. Everybody's like, oh, you know, I had worked for Boca Restaurant Group. People are like, you know, that's who Steph's with. They're like, are you going to go back to that?

• 24:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah.

• 24:31Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, and I had a great relationship with those guys. I still do. I, you know what I mean? They've been awesome to me my whole career. So for me, you know, the biggest risk was taking a chance on some unknowns. And it was even, you know, it was like, okay, these three people. And it's like, you know, when you open a restaurant together, when you form, you know, it's a partnership, it's a relationship. It's saying like, hey, we're all in this together. We're all betting on each other. And it's not just, you know, like monetarily.

• 24:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And as a chef, like, that's huge because you're already taking a risk by opening your own restaurant. That's a big risk there, but you're not doing it with operators who have a playbook, who've done this back to back. You have a playbook as a chef and you know how to open a restaurant. You know how to run operations. You know how to do all that, but you're opening a restaurant, your own, for the first time. And you're not doing it with a safe bet group behind you. Like, that is scary.

• 25:28Joe Flamm?

  Right. And for them, it's scary too, because like, they don't really know me. And I'm saying like, hey, just give me like, all the money.

• 25:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Give me the money. Give me the room. I got it.

• 25:38Joe Flamm?

  And like, you know, like, just trust me that like, I'm gonna make this work.

• 25:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 25:43Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? And so, you know, fortunately, like, you know, and it's like, you also have to remember, like, we signed the lease for Rosemary February fifteenth of twenty twenty.

• 25:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God, did you?

• 25:55Joe Flamm?

  There was a point that summer, you know, and again, like, I didn't know these people that well. And I remember, like, we hadn't talked in a couple of months and like, the world had gone completely crazy. Every restaurant in Chicago was closed. And I remember calling my partner Frank, like, in July, and I was like, you know, and I knew they had another restaurant. So I was like, man, like, what if, you know, the money they were gonna put into mine is like now getting all sucked into that because they're closed? And I was just like, hey, man, like, what's going on? Like, do we, like, are we still gonna do this? I was like, we can't do this. Like, I understand. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is, nobody predicted this. Like, you know, if you guys are out, I understand. I'm like, basically, like, I was like, I just need to know if I need to get a job.

• 26:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:36Joe Flamm?

  Like, and it was like, that was like, the biggest one where I was like, man, I left this massive group. Where it's like, I would have been fine, and I know they got money for days to like, keep things afloat and wait till whatever it needs to open. Now I just, I have three partners. You know, we had no outside money. So now I just have three people. And I'm like, are we still do this? Frank was like, no, like, we're still in. The funny thing I didn't know at the time was they were all thinking I was out.

• 27:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, really?

• 27:01Joe Flamm?

  Because like, we just hadn't talked. It's like, life had gotten so crazy. And they're like, oh, man, like, maybe Joe's out now. Like, maybe we're not doing this, like, blah. So we were both having the same, like, internal dread.

• 27:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  About each other.

• 27:13Joe Flamm?

  About each other. And, you know, we kind of regrouped and we're like, all right, we're just gonna do this. Like, we're just gonna like, you know, we waited another, you know, month or two, and then we're like, let's just start building.

• 27:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  So then you started construction?

• 27:27Joe Flamm?

  We went Field of Dreams style.

• 27:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, man.

• 27:29Joe Flamm?

  If you build it, they will come. So then we just started construction. We're like, we'll just build this thing and, you know, we'll wait. Like, we're not gonna open it till the city gets to at least fifty percent capacity. Because at the time, it was zero.

• 27:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 27:42Joe Flamm?

  And then it went to twenty five.

• 27:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:44Joe Flamm?

  And so we're like, if it gets to fifty, we think we can pay our bills at least.

• 27:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 27:49Joe Flamm?

  Like, and we'll be operating.

• 27:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Good.

• 27:51Joe Flamm?

  So that was the plan. So it was like, all of it was like, a massive, like, okay, we're already taking this big risk of opening a restaurant. Now COVID happens. Now. We're just gonna start building when you can't even open a restaurant.

• 28:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's crazy.

• 28:05Joe Flamm?

  And hope that like, you know,

• 28:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  It works out.

• 28:09Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it was like building a bridge from two sides.

• 28:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 28:12Joe Flamm?

  We hope this other team shows up in the middle when we're done.

• 28:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 28:15Joe Flamm?

  Like, otherwise, we're walking off the end of this.

• 28:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's crazy, because we talked, I knew that you had left Spiaja at that, at that time, I knew you were working on something, but I didn't know that it was a new restaurant group. I didn't know all the details of it. I just knew that like, you were gonna be opening something at some point, and it was probably a little delayed.

• 28:35Joe Flamm?

  Right. I, I, I left Spiaja and I was like, I'm gonna be, you know, Luca was almost one. And I was like, I'll be a stay-at-home dad for like six months. I'll be like cute. You know what I mean?

• 28:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 28:44Joe Flamm?

  Do stuff, hang out. And I ended up being home for a year and a half. I was a stay-at-home dad for a year and a half.

• 28:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's nerve-wracking.

• 28:50Joe Flamm?

  And so it was like, and I had not worked since I was 15 years old. And so for the first time since I was 15, I was, you know, unemployed. I was a stay-at-home dad. Every single one of my friends basically was unemployed.

• 29:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 29:07Joe Flamm?

  And so it was just like a crazy time, but it was like, you just kinda, and it was also like, I felt like, oh, I'm in my prime now. I'm just coming off Top Chef. I'm just coming off Spiaja. And like, I'm on the bench.

• 29:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Joe Flamm?

  Huge fear in me of like, am I not gonna be sharp? When this opens? I haven't cooked in a restaurant in a year and a half. I haven't expedited a service in a year.

• 29:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like riding a bike.

• 29:27Joe Flamm?

  And it is, and it is, it is, but it's like,

• 29:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's, that's scary though.

• 29:31Joe Flamm?

  I think we all have that pit in our stomach, right? We never know when this is done. And that's the scariest thing with restaurants, right? You could be lightning hot, and then one day you're not.

• 29:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:41Joe Flamm?

  I think from outsiders, it was very easy, like friends and family and, you know, people just, you know, watchers were like, oh, you're gonna kill it, you're gonna kill it, you're gonna kill it. And it's like, man, I hope you're fucking right. Like, you know what I mean? And, but I think we all, you know, me and my team and my partners, and we all went into with the mentality of like, we have to.

• 30:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Joe Flamm?

  Like, there's no, There's no other option.

• 30:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's true, because if it were a bigger restaurant group that had more money to float during that uncertain time of the early days of COVID, when restaurants couldn't have people in, and some restaurants couldn't pivot to takeout and delivery, like, that just wasn't an option for a lot of places, sadly. And a bigger group could have said, you know what? We want to keep our resources with the restaurants that we have that are established, so let's pull it. So even though a bigger restaurant group seems like it could have been a safer bet. I mean, the way things worked out, that could have been an even bigger risk. And the three people that you partnered with, they're like, no, we have to do this. Like, we have no choice. We are in.

• 30:43Joe Flamm?

  Right. So that was, I think, whenever you open a restaurant, I think people downplay like the vulnerability. You, you, you, you open yourself up for.

• 30:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 30:52Joe Flamm?

  Of putting yourself out there on that level of like, you know, our review, review, we go back and forth. And it's a joke, but it's like, you're opening yourself up to anyone and everyone.

• 31:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Joe Flamm?

  For a pretty low cost of admission to come judge what you've spent your whole life working on.

• 31:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you're, it's, it's also.

• 31:08Joe Flamm?

  And I don't like you.

• 31:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Identity. Right.

• 31:10Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 31:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  I hate everything about this, which translates to you hate everything about me.

• 31:14Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 31:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's so, it's not just, it's, I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my shit. But it's also like, this is me. This is my identity. This is who I am. This is what I do. And if you don't like it.

• 31:25Joe Flamm?

  This is my livelihood.

• 31:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Joe Flamm?

  It's impossible to not take it personal.

• 31:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:30Joe Flamm?

  Like, maybe you can. Maybe there's chefs out there who can, but I, I can't.

• 31:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nah.

• 31:34Joe Flamm?

  I mean, for me, that was definitely the biggest risk and obviously it paid off. You know what I mean? Four plus years later.

• 31:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 31:39Joe Flamm?

  We're, we're, we're fortunate enough to, you know, be so well supported by this city, by this industry, by people who come in. It's still every day, come to Rosemary and come.

• 31:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're hometown champ, dude. Like, come on.

• 31:51Joe Flamm?

  It's, uh, we're, we're, we're so fortunate, but that's definitely, you know, the biggest risk.

• 31:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  But you know what?

• 31:57Joe Flamm?

  Still standing. Still standing, baby. Let's go.

• 31:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Go. Yes.

• 32:00Joe Flamm?

  Let's go.

• 32:03Joe Flamm?

  Moving out of that, how about a little line check today? I feel like we haven't done line check in a while.

• 32:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, we haven't. We have neglected line check and there is a lot happening in our industry.

• 32:13Joe Flamm?

  Can't neglect those line checks, H.

• 32:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  We cannot.

• 32:15Joe Flamm?

  I know you've been off the line for a minute doing whatever it is you do that you're still widely unspecific about. But the biggest thing I'm seeing everywhere, this is crazy and it's like there's more and more coming out about it. But this chef in SF who got fired for his interaction with an influencer.

• 32:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, he got fired from his own restaurant.

• 32:39Joe Flamm?

  From his own restaurant and then now the restaurant's closed.

• 32:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, are they they're rebranding or they're gonna reopen at some point or?

• 32:46Joe Flamm?

  I don't know, but it's just, it's a wild cross section of where we are, right? Because like, you know, you hear more and more parts of it and the chef like issued an apology, right? But the whole basis was influencer came in and you know, these influencers come in, they do these free meals. They do these collaborations around restaurants, you know, as part of marketing. You know what I mean? Some places do it, some places don't.

• 33:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 33:08Joe Flamm?

  And like, you know, we've done it for like, like when we launched brunch at Boulevard. You know what I mean?

• 33:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Smart, yeah.

• 33:15Joe Flamm?

  You know, some influencers in like they take nice pictures and you know, put it on their social.

• 33:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, and you want to get the word out that you're offering this thing. And what better way to show it? Cause not everybody's gonna read either or the local newspaper, the this. So you gotta meet people where they are.

• 33:30Joe Flamm?

  You can't control how people consume their media, right?

• 33:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 33:33Joe Flamm?

  So like, you know, with Rosemary and Carchofo, I've never really done it. Um, and it's like you have influencers come in, some like it, some don't. You know what I mean? I've had influencers reach out and like, some of them are crazy. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, hey, like especially when we opened Rosemary where they'd be like, uh, this is my package. And they'd send you like, oh, you like fly me out, put me up in a hotel and give me dinner for two. But I was like, uh, no, no.

• 33:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nah, not up in here.

• 33:59Joe Flamm?

  Um, not happening, you know, but the whole kind of crux of this one was, is that this guy said to her basically like, you're not famous enough to get a free meal here because you don't have enough followers. Which is like, it's such a weird insult of our time. You know, if like, I just can't imagine anyone like coming at me about like my amount of followers.

• 34:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 34:21Joe Flamm?

  Like me also caring about that. You know, I don't know. Those are imagination.

• 34:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's the thing. So this woman was actually invited to the restaurant by whatever PR or marketing.

• 34:34Joe Flamm?

  Whatever.

• 34:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Front of house. Right. But the chef didn't know that she was.

• 34:38Joe Flamm?

  He knew, but wasn't happy about it. This was was my take from this is this dude did not know. And then when he found out and was like, I have to cook a free lunch for this person who only has, you know, whatever 15,000 followers, whatever it may be.

• 34:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  And what I've read about the interaction also, because you're right, like this is everywhere. So another thing that it seemed like when they started off talking, he asked her, like, do you know who I am? And told her she didn't do her homework because she didn't know that he was the chef.

• 35:07Joe Flamm?

  Hmm.

• 35:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, so not that it's not saying that he's wrong, but he's like, I'm the chef of this restaurant. You don't even know who I am, but I have to cook you a free meal. And I can see where that rubbed him the wrong way. But damn.

• 35:23Joe Flamm?

  That's kind of an old school mentality to it, though.

• 35:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 35:26Joe Flamm?

  It would be like, those are the chefs, you know, we came up working for where it was like, I remember going online cook interviews and them asking me like, what do you know about the chef?

• 35:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:36Joe Flamm?

  And like, if you didn't do your homework, they were like, get out.

• 35:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 35:40Joe Flamm?

  But that's not the world we live in.

• 35:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, and she's not applying for a job.

• 35:44Joe Flamm?

  I have line cooks come in and I walk up and, you know, and they're new and I'm saying, hey, I'm Joe. And they're like, oh, hey, I'm, you know, whatever, you know, I'm Garrison. I'm like, all right, you know what I mean? And they're like, oh, what do you do here? And I'm like, oh, I'm, you know, the chef. This is my restaurant, you know, like, this is, you know, welcome. You know what I mean?

• 35:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  But 10 years ago, there was no world in which you, somebody would walk into a restaurant, applying for a job and not know that you were the chef.

• 36:06Joe Flamm?

  Right. And but that's what it is now. And it's like, kind of like, you know, I think like, do these influencers have like too much power and like in some things? And it's like, yes. And I've dealt with ones who are very, very nice. And they've been like, hey, like, you know, I didn't know they were coming in and they come up and they're like, hey, I'm like this person, whatever I do this. They're like, will you like, talk to me for 10 minutes? I was like, yeah, sure. I don't care. And then ones who are like, I think if the people who try to leverage it too aggressively, and I think from both sides of the aisles, from chefs being too much like, do you know who I am? To influencers being like, do you know who I am?

• 36:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I don't go into restaurants. I'm like, oh, I was, you know, this was my position or

• 36:45Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 36:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  You know, I, I was on top, like, that's not

• 36:47Joe Flamm?

  Do you know who I am? Do you know what I do? Cause no one does.

• 36:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you know what I do? Stop it. Oh, you're crazy.

• 36:58Joe Flamm?

  They're like, actually, no, we're wildly confused. What do you do? You're like, mind your business. That's what I do.

• 37:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 37:03Joe Flamm?

  Give me a table.

• 37:05Joe Flamm?

  Adrian, cheat him.

• 37:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  If your, if your team had booked an influencer to come in and you didn't know about it and they told you about it, what would you have done? Like, would you have disagreed with your team that set this up?

• 37:19Joe Flamm?

  I think I would have, like, that would have been targeted at them. You know what I mean? I would have been like, I'd be like, why are you fucking doing this? You know what I mean? But I think it's just one of those things. Like, this is a tough business and it's hard and you got emotions running and it's like, so it's like you react the wrong way.

• 37:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 37:32Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? I think this dude just generally reacted the wrong way. Like, from his apology and everything he read, and then everything, you know, goes viral and gets blown out of proportion. It's like, and he's like, you know, and I'm basically like, I read his apology this morning. He was basically like, yeah, I was a dick. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? He wrote it a lot nicer than that, obviously. But it was like, you know, he was like, I shouldn't have been a dick. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that girl didn't deserve that. It's not her fault. He's like, I'm not mad at her.

• 37:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 37:55Joe Flamm?

  I'm mad that this industry, that this guy's been cooking a long time. You know what I mean? He was like, I think a James Beard nominee in like oh, three, oh, four.

• 38:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? So it's like, it's probably hard to sit there and be like, I now have to, I used to have to worry about the, you know, the critics from Michelin, from, you know, the SF Chronicle or whatever. I don't know what the fucking newspaper is.

• 38:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  And now it could be anybody walking in off the street.

• 38:18Joe Flamm?

  Right. And now it's like, now I have to care about this person because they have, you know what I mean? Like 15,000 followers on, you know what I mean? A platform?

• 38:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Joe Flamm?

  And I think that's tough and weird. And it's like, you know, and I think like, that's where it's a weird rub in it, right? Where it's like, it's one of those situations where it's like, You know, I don't think dude was right, but like you get it.

• 38:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 38:43Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like the intrusive thoughts won. And like, you know what I mean? Like it is just like, I think it's like the chef version of when keeping it real goes wrong.

• 38:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, a hundred percent.

• 38:54Joe Flamm?

  It's like the chef version is like when the intrusive thoughts went.

• 38:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  The thing that I don't agree with his reaction, I understand, like you said, his intrusive thoughts and being caught up in this situation that he didn't know about and then he's caught in the middle of and this person is here, but he didn't know what was going on and like, what? So I, I get his perspective, but it's, it's like, it reminds me of what my mom used to say, just don't be a dick.

• 39:19Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 39:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like, just don't be an asshole to anybody.

• 39:22Joe Flamm?

  And like, people are like, oh, how could he not know? It's like, man, I don't know shit all the time. Like I walk in and they're like, you're like, oh, this person's here for this thing. And I'm like.

• 39:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. But that's the thing. He should have talked to his team, directed that, those intrusive thoughts to the team.

• 39:36Joe Flamm?

  Right. I've showed up to work and realized I've had a new segment in 30 minutes. I'm like, oh yeah, okay. Let's go do this. Like, am I guilty of those things? Like a thousand percent.

• 39:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  You? No.

• 39:47Joe Flamm?

  So we gotta go. We got, we got one last thing to do today, Hage. And it's time to, time to take a walk downstairs to the walk-in.

• 39:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. So you know what? You're right. It is my turn to be up for walking confessions. Um, you've shared with us some gems, by the way, and I, I appreciate that. So I'll share with you, and this is something that I never really took responsibility for.

• 40:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Never really admitted when I was in the wrong for doing something and the intrusive thoughts might have won a little bit. So I was at La Berta Den, I had just gotten promoted to chef de partie of hot apps or the second course line, big deal, lot of pressure. And the person who worked the AM lunch of that station was mad that he didn't get promoted to PM chef de partie. So each shift, you know, AM and PM counterparts, you have a prep list. You have things you do for your own service. You have things you do for the other person's service because on lunch, you've got five or six hours to prep and maybe two hours of service. Dinner, you've got maybe four hours to prep and eight or nine hours of service.

• 40:57Joe Flamm?

  Okay, but I will say, I think it's worth mentioning. AM and PM are counterparts, but also like mortal enemies.

• 41:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, yes.

• 41:06Joe Flamm?

  Lunch, shift and dinner shift. Not work in a lunch, dinner shift restaurant. It's like, those are your coworkers, those are your comrades, but also those are like, you're sworn enemies in a weird way.

• 41:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent.

• 41:19Joe Flamm?

  We're on the same team, but like, not at all. And like, I kinda hate you and you hate me. And like, that's our vibe.

• 41:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Everybody thinks their shift is more important and everybody thinks their shift is more difficult. And the thing was, at the time, for the lunch service, there was only a prefix menu, two courses on savory and then dessert. So hot appetizers, you might pick up three dishes a day because at lunch, most people are ordering crudos, tartars for their first course, not hot appetizers. PM shift, on the other hand.

• 41:50Joe Flamm?

  You're right.

• 41:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  We're doing three course prefix, so you're gonna have everybody's second course. We're doing two tasting menus, so every single ticket that comes in the kitchen, we're picking up two to three dishes and two to three courses. It's literally, you're sweating, you're coordinating timing with other tables or other, other stations and other lines. You are fighting for your life in the trenches every single night.

• 42:15Joe Flamm?

  It's the classic dichotomy of the PM doesn't prep anything and the AM doesn't fucking cook anything.

• 42:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 42:22Joe Flamm?

  That is the ying and the yang.

• 42:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent.

• 42:25Joe Flamm?

  The dinner cooks come in and they don't prep anything.

• 42:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  They don't prep anything.

• 42:28Joe Flamm?

  And then you're like, the AM cooks, you know, didn't prep it up, they barely had to cook.

• 42:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. You picked up what, two dishes today? Congratulations, life is so hard. So that's what me and my AM guy kept getting into arguments about. And one day, we had, we had had it with each other, we were done. I was fed up. I'm like yelling at him and he's like six, two tall German guy. And I'm yelling at him, I'm like, you may cook two dishes a day. Like, you don't even have to move your equipment. You can leave, you don't even have to change the water in your rinse bin because you don't pick up enough dishes every day.

• 43:02Joe Flamm?

  That's such a specific shit on someone that's so good. Being like, you don't even change your bane water.

• 43:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 43:08Joe Flamm?

  That's so wildly specific. It's such a deep cut. That's such, I would be like.

• 43:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, you know, when I, when I bring it, when it's gonna get brought, um, it's going down. But, you know, he pretty much told me to go fuck myself. Um, and so the next day, I'd been ruminating on this all night long. I came in around 12:30, lunch service is getting started as usual. That's pretty much the time I got in every day. 12:30 to 12:30 or 1 was like my day. And he's chilling like usual, joking around with the waiters, brown nosing the sous chef who's expediting and just generally not doing anything. So,

• 43:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  I gather my things that I'm gonna go to the prep kitchen to get ready for service. I take a little tube of crazy glue out of my knife roll that I always kept in there for cuts and stuff like that. And I walked over to the station. He wasn't there. This is his fault. He wasn't on the station. I put the crazy glue on the bottom of his spoon bane. And a spoon bane is sitting there. It's all the spatulas. It's all the small pieces of equipment that you're using to plate and cook during service. So I crazy glue it, the stainless steel container, to the stainless steel countertop and I top off the water. So it's just, just at the brim.

• 44:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then I go to the prep kitchen to get ready for service. So lunch shift is wrapping up. I come back to the main kitchen and he is milking the clock. Like he is, he has not even scrubbed up the station. He is not getting ready to go. And I give him a little bit of shit. He says something sharp and witty about how I just generally suck. And then he grabs his spoon bane to go off the station and it was like a cartoon. How hard. He got snapped back. It was hilarious. This like big, tall, lanky guy was like,

• 45:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  got snatched back and there's water splashing everywhere. And instead of just saying like, oh God, something's up, he starts shaking it. So now there's water flying everywhere. There's spoons and spatulas rattling around in this like little metal container and that caught the chef's attention, obviously.

• 45:28Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 45:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  And the chef is like, what are you complaining about? By the way, have you clocked out yet? So he starts,

• 45:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  the chef starts yelling at him to go clock out and figure out whatever is going on later. So this guy is grumbling and yelling and fussing on his way to go clock out. And the chef comes over and he's like, cheat him. Like what is going on? What is happening here? And this guy is of course, like he's blaming me. And the chef is like, AC, what's going on? I'm like, oh my God, that's so crazy. It must be a prank by one of those front of house guys. Like you know how those waiters are. He's always joking around with them. I don't know what happened chef. I was prepping my station. I'm just trying to get set up for dinner service.

• 46:12Joe Flamm?

  I was in the basement. Check the cameras, Doc.

• 46:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Check tape. Check tape. You saw me. I came in. I got my stuff. I left.

• 46:19Joe Flamm?

  The front of the house, under the bus combo on that too, is so good.

• 46:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm sorry. I was a dirtbag. I was a dirtbag for that. I'm sorry.

• 46:27Joe Flamm?

  That's like, you know, like I said, we're all chefs now, but we were all dirtbag line cooks.

• 46:33Joe Flamm?

  That is some, that is filthy. That's so good. I love it. I absolutely a thousand percent approve that move.

• 46:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  I appreciate that. If he actually did have to cook a dish during service, he wouldn't have been messed up. I wouldn't have slowed him down or sabotaged anything. But when you get ready to go, you're gonna know something's up.

• 46:53Joe Flamm?

  See, I think I would have liked, I would have liked, I would have liked, removed it real quick while he was gone too. So that when he came back over, he like totally looked like a dick. And you're like, dude, what do you mean? Just like picked it up.

• 47:06Joe Flamm?

  Did you try lifting it?

• 47:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Have you, I mean, what's wrong with you?

• 47:11Joe Flamm?

  This is your first job, right?

• 47:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm half your size.

• 47:13Joe Flamm?

  It's alright, I remember my first time in the kitchen. It's, this stuff's hard, it's confusing. It's probably, it was probably cold, maybe the cold and the metal, you know? We're the north, it's cold.

• 47:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  They just fused?

• 47:23Joe Flamm?

  It's New York.

• 47:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Briefly, and the thing was, like, he wound up, you know how like you scrape the plancha sometimes, the flat top with the the paint scraper? He had to get one of the paint scrapers to pry his spoon bane off of the counter, it was

• 47:37Joe Flamm?

  And then it's LB, so you probably have to like, scratch pad that surface afterwards. You know what I mean? Like, get the stainless steel polish out, make sure it's like, perfect.

• 47:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Going in the same direction.

• 47:47Joe Flamm?

  Shit out by everyone. And it's like the best of like, being a line cook of like, something that's so not your fault, but like, now is like, everyone's mad at you for getting pranked.

• 47:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yes, as he's grumbling.

• 47:58Joe Flamm?

  For some reason, like, that's your fault, because you

• 47:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Everybody.

• 48:00Joe Flamm?

  You a thousand percent deserved it. So it's like, dude, like, you're a dick, you got yourself pranked. You let somebody come out, it's also like, you let somebody come on your station, dude, that's your dojo. Like, you let somebody in your house, long enough that they could do that to you, like, that's on you.

• 48:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, the PM cooks, though, like, they knew, even though I was on the second course line, like, the guys on the entree line, the sous chefs, the people on garde maje, like, everybody knew we were having this ongoing battle and we kept getting into it. So for the next few weeks, like, everybody just kept giving him shit, like, oh, are you able to get your equipment today? Oh, somebody throw me that crazy glue? Like, people were messing with him for weeks. It was awesome. I never felt so much solidarity with my shift, like, until that moment, I was like, y'all got my back.

• 48:47Joe Flamm?

  A little, little anarchy goes a long way to really bond a team. You know what I mean? There's nothing like a mutual disdain for the AM squad to really get the PM squad together. They can agree on one thing, it's that, it's like, they're our enemy. Brings the people together.

• 49:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent. Nothing like a common enemy to piss everybody off.

• 49:05Joe Flamm?

  I love that. I love that. That uh, that made my line click hard. Age, uh, this was a blast. As always, thank you for sharing. What an awful, awful person you were on the line.

• 49:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, you know, it's always a pleasure hanging out and sharing these stories, you know, it's, it's, it's the highlight of the week. What can I say?

• 49:22Joe Flamm?

  Highlight of the week.

• 49:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you know, we do this every week. Episodes come out every Tuesday, so don't forget to subscribe, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe. New ones drop every Tuesday. And so you don't miss out on anything, personal or professional. Joe, where can people find you?

• 49:39Joe Flamm?

  Uh, they can find me in real life at Boulevard Il Cartofo and Rosemary, all in Chicago. They can find me at Instaflam, uh, and you can find both of us at the Chef Scott Pod on Instagram.

• 49:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Joe Flamm?

  So make sure to give that a follow. So, um, you can comment on all the things we're doing that are making you upset or making you super happy. Uh, Age, how do they find you, uh, when you're not in your clandestine operations?

• 50:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can find me on IG at Chef Adrian Cheatham. You can check out the Sunday Best Cookbook. Check out all the polls we have on our IG. We'd love to get your opinions on some of these things and these thoughts. Keep it respectful.

• 50:14Joe Flamm?

  All right. For this week, I am Joe Flammen. For Adrian Cheatham, this has been the Chef Scott.

• 50:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Life beyond the past.