‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is.

Sean and Amanda are joined by Juliet Litman and return to the (not so) wonderful world of Oz to cover John M. Chu’s ‘Wicked: For Good,’ starring Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. Before diving in, they react to new movie trailers for Charli XCX’s ‘The Moment’ (1:02) and ‘The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping’ (10:54). Then, they discuss ‘Wicked: For Good,’ which they found deeply frustrating due to its bizarre story choices and one-dimensional characters (18:22). They hypothesize its potential box office, compare this year’s press tour to last year’s, and weigh its Academy Award chances (1:07:44). Next, Sean and Amanda briefly examine Clint Bentley’s ‘Train Dreams,’ starring Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones, a deeply earnest and sincere portrayal of grief with some beautiful digital photography and an amazing collection of character actors (1:22:55). Finally, Bentley joins the show to discuss his new film and explains why he initially thought the original material was unadaptable, how he put a lot of intent behind capturing the logging scenes in the movie, and shares his feelings on the current state of independent film (1:34:28). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Clint Bentley and Juliet Litman Producer: Jack Sanders Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn Ads. You can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull spend, advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture. That's LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture.

• 0:46Sean Fennessey?

  Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle, whether you call it fall, autumn or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today.

• 1:21Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 1:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 1:23Sean Fennessey?

  And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about because I knew you. On today's episode, we're discussing two new releases, Wicked for Good, the epic conclusion of the musical adaptation directed by John M. Chu. It's here, it's one of the biggest movies of the year. Juliette Leman is here to discuss it with us, break it all down. We'll share our deepest to darkest feelings about the Wicked franchise. Then Amanda and I will discuss Train Dreams, which is a Sundance sensation that is now out on Netflix, an adaptation of a Dennis Johnson novella. Later in this episode, I'll have the director of Train Dreams, Clint Bentley, to join me. Arguably the nicest person in the history of guests on this show. Wonderful conversation with him. I hope people stick around for that and that conversation about that movie.

• 2:04Sean Fennessey?

  But before we get into Wicked for Good, a couple of trailers, a couple of jam session coded trailers, I would say.

• 2:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Here we are.

• 2:11Sean Fennessey?

  Certainly the first one, the first one is The Moment, which is the forthcoming feature acting debut of Charli XCX. It's a kind of mockumentary about her and her most recent tour and Brad Summer and everything that's transpired with her over the last couple of years. It's directed by Aidan Zamiri. We saw the trailer this morning. Amanda, Juliet, you guys have talked about Charli XCX agnauzium the last 18 months. What did you think of this?

• 2:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Guests first, Juliet. I thought it seemed pretty charming. I'm looking forward to it. I also thought it seemed confusing and too close to life for a mockumentary, but that's great. Maybe she's gonna reinvent the form. Yeah, maybe that's where the art comes from. I'm obviously deeply, deeply, deeply on board for this.

• 2:59Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:59Amanda Dobbins?

  As a huge Charli XCX fan and a person who likes somewhat meta, but are they joking type experiences. I would say that my relationship to like pop star documentaries is filtered through the lens of our guest Juliet Litman. That's a huge honor. Thank you so much. In that sense, I'm just excited to talk about it with Juliet.

• 3:23Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 3:23Amanda Dobbins?

  And I like a big picture jam session crossover moment.

• 3:25Sean Fennessey?

  It was notable this morning that this hit and we haven't potted together. When's the last time the three of us potted together? It's gotta be years.

• 3:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I think a very long time.

• 3:34Sean Fennessey?

  It's stunning and sad for me in so many ways.

• 3:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't remember the last time. Oh, I think for the Hamilton movie on Disney Plus, which I also referenced last time was on the big picture one year ago.

• 3:43Sean Fennessey?

  Holy shit. We only bring you on for big musical events and The Moment may be the next time you have to come on. That's a musical event as well.

• 3:50Amanda Dobbins?

  What about Moana, directed by Thomas Kail?

• 3:52Sean Fennessey?

  I have some serious concerns about Moana. I gotta tell you, that trailer did not inspire me at all.

• 4:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I follow the work of all Hamilton alum, so I'll be seeing it. Juliet, where are you on Moana, the original film, though?

• 4:08Speaker 03

  I like to sing "You're Welcome" over and over, but I don't know any other words to Moana.

• 4:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da, you're welcome.

• 4:18Amanda Dobbins?

  We're in the same place, except I didn't even know that. That was beautiful, though.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 4:23Sean Fennessey?

  You know, earlier this week, Amanda was asking me about the songs from Moana, and I was saying I could sing "Where I'll Go" at any moment, at any time of the day, you know, and just consider the coconut, you know, consider its leaves.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that, is that a knowing David Foster Wallace reference?

• 4:39Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think so.

• 4:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 4:41Sean Fennessey?

  But I could be wrong, perhaps.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  It's written by Lin-Manuel Miranda, right?

• 4:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  I think it could be.

• 4:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  I think, I think he's a very well-read gentleman.

• 4:49Sean Fennessey?

  Did David Foster Wallace invent the "consider the..."

• 4:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably not. It's probably like a Samuel, like Peppis or whatever reference. I don't even know. Did I like conflate two names right then? What was Peppis's first name?

• 5:01Speaker 03

  It was Samuel.

• 5:03Amanda Dobbins?

  In my mind, it is a "consider the lobster" reference.

• 5:05Sean Fennessey?

  If there's David Foster Wallace in Moana, all the better. That's how I feel about that. The moment, I think, is, it looks pretty fun. I think this is hard to pull off.

• 5:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:16Sean Fennessey?

  And we're in this funny moment in the aftermath of like the Eras Tour film, the Beyonce Renaissance movie, the Taylor Swift album release party, whatever the fuck that was that happened two months ago.

• 5:27Sean Fennessey?

  All this-

• 5:27Speaker 03

  The Taylor Swift six episodes plus documentary coming for us very soon.

• 5:31Sean Fennessey?

  Is that a thing that's happening?

• 5:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  On Disney Plus. On Disney Plus. Six episodes of her final performance of the Eras Tour.

• 5:38Amanda Dobbins?

  She gives them content, or she like gives her her own movie whenever she finally wants to make it.

• 5:42Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  How could I be great, how could I be breaking this news to you?

• 5:45Sean Fennessey?

  Well, hard to believe I didn't get the Taylor Swift news. That is, that's not surprising, and that's fine. And I do think Charli XCX, even as a pop star, seems to be kind of taking the piss out of what it means to be a pop star while also trying to have all the spoils of being a pop star. So, and, you know, I thought of Madonna "Truth or Dare", watching this mockumentary a little bit, and I feel like she is like a kind of an ancestor to whatever Charli XCX is trying to do. This sort of like the knowingness of her persona. And I also thought of "Waiting for Guffman". So if we get a "Truth or Dare" meets "Waiting for Guffman",

• 6:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I love it.

• 6:18Sean Fennessey?

  I'm in. I probably won't be that good, but you never know.

• 6:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think Charlie would come on this podcast to talk to you about The Moment?

• 6:25Sean Fennessey?

  She loves cinema.

• 6:26Amanda Dobbins?

  She loves it. She's on Substack. She's on Letterboxd.

• 6:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 6:30Amanda Dobbins?

  She is everywhere, just watching. She's on TikTok.

• 6:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 6:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Casting Final Destination movies. Like, I, Charlie XCX, come on the podcast. I wouldn't want to meet her because I don't like meeting my heroes.

• 6:40Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I will go with her to Tenants of the Trees afterwards.

• 6:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 6:43Amanda Dobbins?

  If she would like that.

• 6:45Sean Fennessey?

  Let's do a quick run-through.

• 6:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 6:47Sean Fennessey?

  Charlie's November on Letterboxd, okay?

• 6:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 6:50Sean Fennessey?

  This is gonna be a really good use of time. First of all, she's logged 219 movies. Fucking A. That's what it's all about.

• 6:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 6:57Sean Fennessey?

  That's what these fucking pop stars need to be doing, is logging these films. How many movies has Taylor Swift logged this year? I ask you that.

• 7:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It's an ongoing discussion on Jam Session of how many films she's seen. But she actually, she does like the work of Paul Thomas Anderson. She shouted it out on whatever late-night show that was.

• 7:14Sean Fennessey?

  I take it all back.

• 7:15Amanda Dobbins?

  She said, what was the direct quote?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  I don't know, but I would, I don't know. Do you remember it?

• 7:21Amanda Dobbins?

  I think it was, "We're so lucky to be alive at the same time as Paul Thomas Anderson," is a real thing she said.

• 7:26Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 7:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  I think we landed on on Jam Session that she watches a lot of movies.

• 7:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  The open question is, how many does Travis watch with her?

• 7:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Correct.

• 7:33Sean Fennessey?

  I see. Right.

• 7:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 7:35Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think he's seen, like, Sentimental Value and Begonia and had some deep thoughts about those films?

• 7:39Amanda Dobbins?

  No, Barbie is his favorite Greta Gerwig film. That is something we know from the No Hearts Feeling podcast.

• 7:44Sean Fennessey?

  Very cool.

• 7:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 7:45Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, okay, November for Charlie on Letterboxd, very quickly. There's a lot of films here, guys, and frankly, it's, there's something for all of us in this mix. On November 1st, she watched The Moment, this film that we're talking about.

• 7:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Great. Okay.

• 7:56Sean Fennessey?

  The same day, she watched Bram Stoker's Dracula.

• 7:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 7:59Sean Fennessey?

  Salute. We have to salute you.

• 8:01Amanda Dobbins?

  We do, though I do need to ask, for 219 films in one month.

• 8:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know if this is like a Steven Soderbergh Cultural Diary level of, like, real time, or whether she's maybe logging things she's already seen. Because that is something, Letterboxd asks you, like, hey, have you seen this? Do you wanna?

• 8:17Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think so. If you're, I think if you're applying the date, I don't think she's trying to just identify, because you can just click watched. You don't have to click the date that you watched it. You can just say that you, I believe. So like, for example, she and I were in the same screening room on October 28th. We saw Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, the Jarmusch film. So she logged it, like, moments either before or after me, so I think she's doing it in real time.

• 8:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Wait, so she's 219 total or in November?

• 8:42Sean Fennessey?

  No, in the, in the year of 2025.

• 8:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  I thought you said in November.

• 8:45Amanda Dobbins?

  So did I.

• 8:45Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, no, no.

• 8:46Amanda Dobbins?

  That makes more sense.

• 8:47Sean Fennessey?

  Imagine if I just listed 219 films that you guys? No, but I think it's north of 20 films.

• 8:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Welcome to the big picture.

• 8:53Sean Fennessey?

  That is one of my favorite hobbies. So Bram Stoker's Dracula, the next day she watched the Naked Gun remake.

• 8:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 8:58Sean Fennessey?

  The day after that, she watched Simon Killer. Do you know who the star of Simon Killer is?

• 9:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't.

• 9:03Sean Fennessey?

  A little man named Brady Corby.

• 9:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 9:07Sean Fennessey?

  November 5th, Four Weddings and a Funeral.

• 9:09Amanda Dobbins?

  That's my girl.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 9:10Sean Fennessey?

  November 7th, Woody Allen's Husbands and Wives.

• 9:13Amanda Dobbins?

  That's my girl.

• 9:14Sean Fennessey?

  November 7th, The Devil All The Time. November 7th, Friendship, the 2025 comedy. November 8th, To Live and Die in L.A. I See You, Charlie. November 8th, Caught Stealing. Tough one, no rating on that one, I'll notice.

• 9:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, you gotta keep up with what your friends are up to.

• 9:28Sean Fennessey?

  November 9th, she watched Michael Mann's The Keep.

• 9:31Amanda Dobbins?

  That's beautiful.

• 9:32Sean Fennessey?

  What? Have you guys seen that? You probably haven't seen that movie.

• 9:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, like, Charlie is, is recently married and happily partnered, so I don't know why she's doing the Michael Mann deep dives. But I'm, I'm happy for her.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  Maybe for him. Isn't that possible?

• 9:44Sean Fennessey?

  There's more to come, guys. November 11th, Begonia, respect it.

• 9:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Love it.

• 9:48Sean Fennessey?

  November 12th, another Woody Allen film, Love and Death.

• 9:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:50Sean Fennessey?

  November 12th, After School. November 14th, La Ventura. November 14th, Mighty Aphrodite. That's three Woody Allen movies in 14 days. November 16th, The Long Goodbye, Robert Altman. Charlie. Good lord. And then November 19th, she watched John Huston's The Dead, which was recently announced to be a part of the Criterion Collection soon. We, I just, you just, you'd love to see it. You love to see it.

• 10:13Amanda Dobbins?

  It is very cool. It is very just started dating a boy in, like, college who really is into movies, but that's cool. But I guess that is like, we have bottled that experience and turned it into an app, and it's called Letterboxd, and that's awesome.

• 10:27Sean Fennessey?

  It's nice. It's nice that everyone can have their own little boyfriend in this app.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  It seems like they're both not on tour, probably, and so just like seeing a lot of movies together would be my guess in her.

• 10:37Sean Fennessey?

  What's her husband's deal? What does he do?

• 10:38Amanda Dobbins?

  George, he's, he's the drummer of the 1975.

• 10:41Sean Fennessey?

  What?

• 10:41Amanda Dobbins?

  That's, that's how, that's how the Charlie Taylor thing happened.

• 10:46Sean Fennessey?

  Oh.

• 10:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And that's because, like, and Charlie did some songs about Taylor but didn't name her, uh, because of the whole, what was that guy's name?

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Matty Healy.

• 10:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:57Sean Fennessey?

  Does Taylor know that being on coke has created some of the greatest films of all time? Is she aware of that? Has anyone mentioned that to her?

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Um, I think that it probably came up while they were writing this most recent album. I just, I just feel like, you know, she was trying to like get a little edgier. So I'm sure they discussed the important role of cocaine.

• 11:15Sean Fennessey?

  Got it. I'm in a great mood in this, for this episode. Okay. The next thing we're going to talk about, this is The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, Juliette. Do you care about The Hunger Games?

• 11:23Speaker 03

  You know, I do.

• 11:24Sean Fennessey?

  I thought you did.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  I do, actually. Um, I feel like it's a great part of culture and I enjoyed those movies a lot. You know, I'm, I'm very invested in the Hemsworths all the time. So like, I just continue to, to, to carry a torch for Liam Hemsworth as Gail. I was actually just thinking about that, Team Gail and Team PETA. Feels like a long time ago.

• 11:43Sean Fennessey?

  And Hutcherson really back in the mix lately with I Love LA. Have you been watching I Love LA?

• 11:47Speaker 03

  I saw the first episode and I was like, alright.

• 11:50Sean Fennessey?

  Second episode I thought was very funny. First episode was okay.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll do back.

• 11:54Sean Fennessey?

  Some really good Hutch in the, in the second episode as the sort of stifled boyfriend.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  I look forward to it. I've been, I've been tied up with Secret Lives of Mormon Wife, so it's just been a little busy over here.

• 12:03Sean Fennessey?

  I see. Haven't seen that show. This new Hunger Games movie, no, no Hutcherson in this movie, no Jennifer Lawrence. This, this is, um, it's called Sunrise on the Reaping, which is just an epic slogan. Um, it's the sixth one. It's both a sequel to The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, which was the movie that, with Rachel Zegler that came out in 2023.

• 12:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Juliette, have you seen that one?

• 12:25Speaker 03

  No, I haven't.

• 12:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  I, no, I didn't really enjoy it, but like Rachel Zegler is sort of like fronting a

• 12:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Lumineers style band while also being part of one of The Hunger Games.

• 12:36Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 12:37Amanda Dobbins?

  So it just wasn't my preferred musical experience.

• 12:40Sean Fennessey?

  Wasn't my favorite either.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Isn't she starring on the West End right now in London? Isn't she in?

• 12:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Evita?

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I believe so.

• 12:48Sean Fennessey?

  Rachel Zegler is starring as Evita? That's actually inspired.

• 12:50Amanda Dobbins?

  You gotta get on our internet. I know that I say this a lot. This is really rewarding also because most of the time on this show, it's you and your pals talking about video games and I'm like, uh huh.

• 13:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's not true.

• 13:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's just, Juliette, thank you for coming and, and joining and welcoming Sean into the world.

• 13:07Sean Fennessey?

  I invited Juliette. What are you talking about?

• 13:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Actually, you'll find, uh, the text messages will show that I did. I communicated what was said on a spreadsheet at 11:30 PM to Juliette.

• 13:18Sean Fennessey?

  It was my idea to invite Juliette.

• 13:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And I made the scheduling happen, but that's fine.

• 13:22Sean Fennessey?

  Let's keep it moving. This movie is directed by Francis Lawrence. He's directed the last five Hunger Games films. Gary Ross directed the first one. You know what else he directed? Chris Ryan's favorite movie, Sea Biscuit. He stepped away from these films and Lawrence has been making them. Lawrence also made The Long Walk this year, which was kind of an interesting movie. You didn't see that one?

• 13:42Amanda Dobbins?

  No, but I know how it ends because you told me. I think Alive on a podcast.

• 13:45Sean Fennessey?

  Billy Ray is the screenwriter of this movie. You guys familiar with the work of Billy Ray?

• 13:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 13:50Sean Fennessey?

  He wrote Shattered Glass and he wrote the Comey Rule adaptation.

• 13:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah. Your favorite pandemic watch for sure.

• 14:00Sean Fennessey?

  That was pretty good, actually. I thought that was quite interesting. James Comey, is he in prison yet? What's going on with that?

• 14:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I really...

• 14:06Speaker 03

  I believe there's a counter suit related to the indictment against him.

• 14:09Sean Fennessey?

  I knew you would know exactly where that story stands. Thank you, Juliette. You are really on the right episode today, I must say.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  I'm delighted to be here.

• 14:17Sean Fennessey?

  The cast of Sunrise on the Reaping is insane. So because it's a prequel to the original Hunger Games film, you have a lot of characters that we saw in the original Hunger Games films, including President Coriolanus Snow, who is played by Donald Sutherland in the other films. In this film, he's played by Rafe Fiennes. Rafe Fiennes in the sixth Hunger Games movie?

• 14:37Amanda Dobbins?

  He likes to work.

• 14:38Sean Fennessey?

  I know.

• 14:38Amanda Dobbins?

  He likes to show up and have a great time.

• 14:40Sean Fennessey?

  I love to get money too. I get it, Rafe. Jesse Plemons as Plutarch Heavensby, who was portrayed by Philip Seymour Hoffman. Ingenious casting, of course. Plemons once played Philip Seymour Hoffman's son in a movie, The Master. Elle Fanning is in this movie, having an insane run right now with Predator: Badlands and Sentimental Value. Kieran Culkin, Academy Award winner. I think this is his first role on screen?

• 15:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Great for him.

• 15:02Sean Fennessey?

  Since that win, he's playing the host of The Hunger Games, Caesar Flickerman. The names in this series remain unmatched. Caesar Flickerman?

• 15:09Amanda Dobbins?

  It's very good.

• 15:10Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Glenn Close?

• 15:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yep. Speaking of people who will show up for money.

• 15:13Sean Fennessey?

  She loves to work. She plays Drew Silla Sickle, who I guess is kind of like an Effie Trinket-style announcer of The Hunger Games. Billy Porter's in this movie. Kelvin Harrison, Maya Hawke.

• 15:24Amanda Dobbins?

  I think you'll find that Effie Trinket was the stylist.

• 15:27Sean Fennessey?

  Was she?

• 15:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 15:28Sean Fennessey?

  Who was Elizabeth Banks's character?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  I thought she was Effie Trinket, but I'm gonna look it up right now, guys.

• 15:33Amanda Dobbins?

  And Effie Trinket was a stylist because, you know, the opulent nature of the costumes in The Hunger Games and getting someone on your side, like the style and your visual presentation is such an important part of your positioning.

• 15:44Sean Fennessey?

  Did you love The Hunger Games?

• 15:46Amanda Dobbins?

  No, but I read the three books and I saw them.

• 15:49Sean Fennessey?

  But didn't she also sort of like, wasn't she present for the selection of the tributes in the first film? In the same role that Glenn Close plays in this trailer?

• 15:57Speaker 03

  She's like, like walks alongside Jennifer Lawrence's character, like out to the front.

• 16:01Amanda Dobbins?

  She's a publicist stylist, but like, I think she's, she's introduced as a stylist because they understand that the visual, like accoutrement are an important part of the messaging.

• 16:11Sean Fennessey?

  It's very exciting.

• 16:11Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, because it's a comment on our society.

• 16:14Sean Fennessey?

  What?

• 16:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know if you've heard this, I mean, like the materialization.

• 16:17Sean Fennessey?

  The Hunger Games? I thought it was just a rollicking adventure series. Um, there's three other young actors who are portraying the tributes. One I have never heard of, Joseph Zada, who I think is basically the star of this movie, who is meant to be Haymitch Abernathy, who is Woody Harrelson's character from the original Hunger Games.

• 16:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I will say, when I Googled Hunger Games trailer this morning.

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Me too, Amanda.

• 16:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, and then I clicked on the Lionsgate link and it was Hunger Games sunrise, whatever title. And then the one name in the title along with the title of this movie was Joseph Zada.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  I was like, are there other, are there other trailers that have someone else's name in them? Like, is this just the first one to come? I thought that was very confusing. It also lives on YouTube.

• 17:01Sean Fennessey?

  Very odd. Uh, another one of the tributes will be played by McKenna Grace, who Amanda and I just saw in the Colleen Hoover adaptation, Regretting You, which will make for an incredible conversation on this pod very soon.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  I truly, truly can't wait for this podcast.

• 17:13Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, and Ben Wong, who plays Wyatt Callow in this, in this new Hunger Games movie, who I just saw on the long walk and was very good, sort of the third lead of that movie behind, um, David Johnson and Cooper Hoffman. So that's coming out literally this time next year, November 20th, 2026.

• 17:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Happy Thanksgiving.

• 17:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, I guess so.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  That seems good. Do you guys ever review the, um, music video list or filmography of Francis Lawrence?

• 17:38Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I mean, I know he's directed a great many music videos. He was a guest on this show, actually, some time ago.

• 17:43Amanda Dobbins?

  When you say review, do you mean, what do you mean by that?

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Well, like, every time he's brought up in relation to The Hunger Games, I just think of every time he was on MTV for like, you know, Inside, what was the name of that show? Like Inside the Music Video or whatever, Making the Video?

• 17:57Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm, Making the Video, yes.

• 18:00Speaker 03

  It's an astonishing list of of music videos. Like, he has really had a stranglehold on on pop culture for a long time. It's like, pretty, it's like, shocking.

• 18:10Sean Fennessey?

  It looks, it looks like his first credited music video is Gone Till November by Wyclef Jean, which I must tell you, in 1997, had culture in a chokehold.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  It had so, so much importance to me.

• 18:21Sean Fennessey?

  I'll bet.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Like, so much.

• 18:23Sean Fennessey?

  Did you, did you enjoy the carnival, that album by Wyclef Jean?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Sean, you have, you have no idea. To the extent you could, like, break a CD from over, overuse, that's where I was at the carnival.

• 18:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, he, he directed both Cry Me A River and Jenny From The Block.

• 18:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:39Amanda Dobbins?

  This is, no, it's incredibly important.

• 18:41Sean Fennessey?

  He directed Back At One by Brian McKnight, he directed Warning by Green Day. I mean, this guy had range as a music video director.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  Adia by Sarah McLachlan.

• 18:49Sean Fennessey?

  Sure.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Like, it's kind of shocking. Like, he has such a big impact.

• 18:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Unrelated to the videography of Frances Lawrence, but just related to music videos and Juliette being here, I recently saw the music video for Justin Timberlake's Mirror for the first time.

• 19:03Sean Fennessey?

  Sure. Isn't it mirrors?

• 19:04Speaker 03

  He's like, holding his arms out?

• 19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, but then there's like, the old couple that has, I don't really know what's going on. I was quite taken aback. We, it was a strange time.

• 19:14Sean Fennessey?

  Why did you see that video?

• 19:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I was getting my nails done, and that's what happens, is that the thing, I just-

• 19:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, just play music videos.

• 19:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and you watch them and you're like, huh, that's the world we lived in.

• 19:22Sean Fennessey?

  It really all came tumbling down with the 2020 experience. That was like, he was really riding a wave and then it just completely toppled.

• 19:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Sean Fennessey?

  Anyhow, this is a whole other podcast we could do about, uh, growing up, listening to pop music in the 90s and 2000s.

• 19:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 19:34Sean Fennessey?

  Should we pivot to Wicked For Good?

• 19:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm ready.

• 19:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so, this, as I said, is the second installment in the Wicked films. It's again directed by John M. Chu, screenplay by Winnie Holsman and Dana Fox. It's based on Wicked by Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holsman, the smash stage musical, uh, which is also based on the novel Wicked by Gregory, Gregory Maguire. Now, as I said, last time Juliette and I spoke about the first Wicked film, I've not read the novel, I've not seen the stage show. I come to this, learning all of the material in real time as I'm seeing the movie. I think that's true for you as well?

• 20:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we're, we're learning and we're growing all together.

• 20:09Sean Fennessey?

  I am shrinking, I am shrinking all the time.

• 20:14Amanda Dobbins?

  May I just say that last year's episode about the first installment, Wicked, just, that's the title, right?

• 20:20Sean Fennessey?

  Just Wicked, yes.

• 20:22Amanda Dobbins?

  That you and Juliette did together while I was on leave was wonderful and very insightful. And I recommend that anyone who did not listen to it, seek that out before joining us for part two.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  That's really nice, Amanda. Thank you.

• 20:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I learned a lot.

• 20:37Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I mean Juliette is a, you know, maybe you should just restate your bona fides before we start talking about the second installment.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure. I am Juliette. I am Amanda's co-host of Jam Session.

• 20:49Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you don't have to go all the way back to the beginning.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  I really love Wicked the Musical, the stage show. I also like, in general, love musicals as a feeling, as an experience, as an idea, as a medium. I think they're like important and special and like love the opportunity to get in touch with my inner theater kid. And Wicked really draws that out. It has for like, you know, millions upon millions of people, so I'm not alone. And yeah, I'm definitely not like a Broadway expert, but I am a Broadway superfan. And also just like have the benefit of growing up in New York and having been able to see a lot of musicals, which I feel like just is an unfair advantage.

• 21:27Sean Fennessey?

  So is there, is there anything you want to state about yourself before we start discussing this film?

• 21:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I was on leave for Wicked Part One. I did see it in theaters.

• 21:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yep. You were, you were canvassing for the Republican Party during that time.

• 21:42Amanda Dobbins?

  And then I guess we spoke about Wicked, the original.

• 21:46Sean Fennessey?

  You came on like a house on fire when you came back.

• 21:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 21:49Sean Fennessey?

  You had some strong words for the film. I did too. I really did not like the first film.

• 21:53Amanda Dobbins?

  But like you, I am not a person who has seen the stage show. I think generationally for me and Juliette, it was definitely a thing for a lot of people.

• 22:05Sean Fennessey?

  You guys are two years younger than me.

• 22:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, well, that was, right. That was also like my way of saying like for girls, you know, without being like super gendered, but um, and I, you know, and also I don't, I don't mean to exclude the many men who also feel a real connection to the show.

• 22:23Amanda Dobbins?

  But it was a thing and like our, our jam session producer Jade Whaley is also a huge Wicked head because they did it, a version of it in her high school. Is that right Juliet? I don't want to-

• 22:33Speaker 03

  I believe so.

• 22:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, so it's a phenomenon.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  The show is big and yeah, and it was, it's, it's so big. It's been a lot, around for so long. It's now been 21 years. It had like multiple national tours and it still sells out all the time in New York and you know, I think, I think it's been to like every major city in the world. There's been a production of Wicked. It's a international phenomenon.

• 22:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And, but I was not a part of that phenomenon. Don't, I had, Defying Gravity, which is the song from the first act, the climactic song that closes the first installment, had like made its way to me. Like I, you know, I know who Idina Menzel and Chris and China with are, but I, I was not a part of this and didn't really seek it out before Wicked the film, or this adaptation, I should say.

• 23:19Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we've cleared the decks on all those. Any, anything else you want to note Juliet?

• 23:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's one, I, one other thing, which is that I think I have an unpopular opinion of, I love the second act of Wicked. I, I like really enjoy a lot of the songs in it. And I think the kind of conventional idea is the first act is much better, but I actually really love act two. I think the music is great. Um, we'll talk about the songs. There's, everyone loves For Good. It's like, you know, it's like part of the American songbook now. I also really love another song, which I'll, I'll save a big reveal. And so I was like excited about this movie because I really like the music of act two.

• 23:54Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. This new film essentially returns the entire cast from the previous film. That includes Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, who were both Academy, were nominated for their performances. Jonathan Bailey, Jeff Goldblum, Marissa Bowden, Ethan Slater, Michelle Yeoh. They're all back. The story, you know, was literally cleaved in half at the end of the first film. I guess there was a sort of a cliffhanger and this movie picks up years later. I'm not quite sure how many years later and we can talk about that, but Elphaba is now known throughout Oz as the wicked witch of the West. She's continuing to fight for animal rights in her journeys through Oz, living in a tree. Um, Glinda is now Glinda the- Good. She is sort of like an avatar of the decency that Oz wants to present to this

• 24:38Sean Fennessey?

  culture. The Wizard is ruling alongside Madame Morrible. They are gonna come to blows here because, you know, Elphaba needs to seek her revenge for the way that she's been betrayed. And also, there's gonna be some significant convergence with the Wizard of Oz 1939 film and its characters in this movie. Juliet, I'll start with you. What did you think of Wicked for Good?

• 25:02Speaker 03

  I found it frustrating. I just didn't know why a lot of the decisions were made. And I think there was like, as someone who loves the musical, there was two things in particular that really bothered me, which I'm, should I share them now?

• 25:14Sean Fennessey?

  If you'd like.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Go for it. One, I think there's, there's two. One is in execution and one is sort of like in principle. And I think one of the reasons people love For Good, the song, is because it really solidifies that the musical can be very heavily seen through this lens of friendship and like the idea of how much, you know, the women in your life can make a difference. And that's like the real love story. And I think there was also a lot of conversation around the first movie around sort of like the homoeroticism of the first one and the connection between Elphaba and Glinda. And I thought that was like interesting and also like a good take, if you will. I really found it so frustrating

• 26:00Speaker 03

  that there, like a lot of the fighting between Elphaba and Glinda, and there's like literal fighting, like the fights and everything, was it felt so much more like the impact of Fierro was amplified and they were like fighting over a boy, whereas I really don't think that is such a strong theme in the musical. And I was just like, what the fuck is this? Like, who, who cares about this guy made of straw now? I mean, I, I think that like the musical, Fierro is more interested in Elphaba than Elphaba is in him. And like, while they do have a love story, it's not, it's not the main love story of, of the musical. So I found that like, super disappointing. And then secondly, in execution, this is a musical.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  And it felt like they made a conscious decision to make a superhero movie and rush through the musical numbers. And I thought that like, um, Thank Goodness and As Long As You're Mine,

• 26:55Speaker 03

  and For Good were all super rushed and there was no like showstopper musical number. And that is just a crime in a musical movie.

• 27:04Sean Fennessey?

  So by frustrating, would you say you did not enjoy the movie? Or did you still have fun with it?

• 27:10Speaker 03

  No, I didn't. But I'm also like, was I in a bad mood? I'm like, I'm doing a lot of self-reflection on this because I really did not enjoy it. And I was like, maybe I was in a bad mood, but also I really think they fucked it up. Like, I really find it like sad.

• 27:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Can I, can I respond to that? Just in the sense of I, I was baffled throughout this experience, much as I was during the first and much as I am when beholding the wicked extravaganza experience. I think I had more fun in this one. I, so I don't know why. I, I, I have some thoughts and what Juliet said kind of started jogging.

• 27:49Sean Fennessey?

  This is a wild Zach.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  I'm excited about it.

• 27:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I really did not have any fun in the first one. I was like very baffled by it. And then like, you know, as I said, a goat started singing. And also to Juliet's points about the music, musical numbers. I thought that they were very poorly handled in the first. And the things like choreography and cinematography and how you communicate a musical on screen. I'm not as much of a stage musical person as Juliet, but we all know how much Hollywood and old Hollywood musicals mean to me. And I, I thought it was just like very jumbled, very confusing. I don't really love the songs, but I didn't think the songs were very well communicated. Like even Defying Gravity, which is this like triumphant number. They, they start the superhero stuff. They cut it through.

• 28:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And she's like flying around and then it turns out like they spoiled the ending in the trailer. So it, it was confusing and there's also a lot of like expository setup in part one that I like didn't really know what was going on. This was at least on like a basic level legible of.

• 28:58Amanda Dobbins?

  This person is against these other people and who is gonna team up with who. And the lack of musical numbers, I think honestly was to its benefit to me because anytime they had like the full stage number and all the extras like doing their choreography, uh-uh. Like I really, I, you know, I think John Chu has directed like many much better musical adaptations and much better dancing and I don't care for this one. And to your point about the, the emphasis on Fierro versus the real love story being the friendship, I not knowing anything, once they actually do get to for good and are singing lovingly each other, I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in these movies despite everything else that's going on around them.

• 29:43Amanda Dobbins?

  And I had my like very, you know, dumb movie watcher moment sitting in there being like, oh, they're the real love story. That's beautiful. So in at least that case, it communicates it to me. It was also just so plot confusing that I had fun being like, wait, now what's going on? I'd like to ask you a lot of questions about how magic works in Oz, Juliet.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 30:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, I mean, just like-

• 30:06Speaker 03

  I don't know if I can answer, but I'll try.

• 30:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. I mean, and maybe there is no answer, but like, is Elphaba the only magical person? Like what, how does magic, how are magical powers bestowed?

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Certain people have them.

• 30:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  And Elphaba's mother had them. Plus there's like this elixir.

• 30:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. The wizard has-

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I remember, we all-

• 30:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, her sister, Madame Morrible.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, certain people have it.

• 30:31Sean Fennessey?

  Many, many characters have it, yeah.

• 30:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, but Elphaba has like more of it?

• 30:35Sean Fennessey?

  She's just very powerful.

• 30:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 30:37Sean Fennessey?

  Which is explained at the end of the film why she's very powerful. We don't have to spoil that quite yet.

• 30:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:42Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I mean, it's fair to, I think it's reasonable to be confused by some of the plotting. Like I, I have- Ocean waves of confusion about the plotting of this movie. And just like the, particularly the ways in which this movie is trying to retcon what The Wizard of Oz is.

• 30:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, that stuff is just.

• 31:00Sean Fennessey?

  It is like abominable to me, and I guess this has all been known because people have been reading this novel and seeing a stage show for years. But this, again, as I said, this is all new to me. And so, you know, for the, to start, I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in this for the most part. But I don't think their performances are very well handled by the direction. And I think it's kind of number to number, how much I even buy what's going on between them. So that's just like, that's at the forefront of the story. And a lot of people love the first movie. And you can already see in the reaction to this new movie that there's a lot of like either letdown or frustration or outright, kind of like, God, you really, you fucked this, you know?

• 31:43Sean Fennessey?

  And but to me, I'm just like, this is just a continuation of where I was at the end of the first one. Which is that these, the films don't look very good, the way that they're lit is bizarre, given the way, the amount of detail and time that has been put into the production design and costuming. But to me, the ultimate issue is just, it feels like a real problem of story. And that it has like completely upended something, and this is just personal to me. But The Wizard of Oz is very personal to me. And what that book is about and what that movie is about are two very distinct things that found a way to kind of coexist. The book is this, you know, big allegorical story about really money in, in America in the late 1800s.

• 32:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 32:26Sean Fennessey?

  And the.

• 32:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Follow the yellow brick road.

• 32:27Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 32:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 32:28Sean Fennessey?

  Which is all about the gold standard and the silver standard. And it's like a book about populism and, you know, it's all, in the text, if you read it, you can see it's like Animal Farm. It's just like, it's very clearly metaphorically about something in society. The movie is not clearly about that. The movie is really more this like exploration of this girl's mind. And it's, it's this fantasia, it's a dream sequence where people from her real life find their way into this dream world. It's like an amazing adaptation of a book. It's very different. And if the book mattered to you a lot, you might sound like me, talking about The Wizard of Oz and the way that Wicked makes me feel. So I'm, again, I'll just say this is completely subjective to me. But the actual execution of the story is just so weird and stupid. Like, I really can't believe that this is what this story is and that everyone loves this. It makes me feel a little crazy.

• 33:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Following off what he said, maybe as the Wicked expert, you could answer the question for us. What is the moral of Wicked, this stage? Like, what? How does it end and what are you supposed to take away with? Take away from it?

• 33:28Speaker 03

  The moral of Wicked is that, like, you know, power is abused to, like, ostracize a certain class of person or animal. And I forgot to note that there was far too many animals in Wicked for Good. And also, the sense that is about the relationship. Like, the whole, the story of Wicked is the story of Elphaba and Glinda. And I think that, like, the first movie captured that in the marketing, as well as in the movie, pretty well. And the second movie, I think, really loses that. And I think the fact that, like, even for you, Amanda, that, like, it took to, like, almost the end of Act Three of the movie to get the, like, oh, this is the real love story. Like, that is a real fumble.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  And I think part of that is because another, I think, failure of the movie is so many people are alone and they only, like, intersect with, like, someone else in the movie for, like, a big lurch forward.

• 34:26Sean Fennessey?

  It's a really good point.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  And so it's just, like, a lot of parallel lines that then, like, swerve to cross. And so I think it's, you don't get that because you don't get sort of sense of, like, like, any kind of, like, interconnectivity between these people. And I think it's also shown why, like, it feels so insane that you're like, so that guy is now the Tin Man? You're like, what the fuck?

• 34:48Sean Fennessey?

  It just feels so strained and, like, they're really, like, bending so hard to try to make something fit into this world that they have decided to tell this story about these two characters in. But can I answer the, like, how I perceive this story based on my limited experience of just Wicked and Wicked for Good?

• 35:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I mean, I wanted her to speak to what the stage version is about because, as we've discussed, this stage is a two-act, two-and-a-half-hour show, and this is four-and-a-half hours. So a lot is added, and I don't really know how faithful this absolutely bonkers, baffling adaptation, which, like, I agree with you. I had a decent time, but I was like, what is going on? I mean, and where did the lion come from? But we'll get back to that. So, but I'm just curious about what the people, all the people who love Wicked were actually responding to in the text.

• 35:35Sean Fennessey?

  Well, so- You can tell me if this is also a critical part of the idea. This, even before I knew there was going to be a movie adaptation, just by looking at the cover of the book or images from the stage musical, my perception of this was just like, this is a story that is meant to see the world through the eyes of a villain. And the way that someone who we understand to be a villain could be better understood with empathy, and that if you see what their experiences were, and see how they got to the place where they are, and see the way that society ostracizes like you're describing, that maybe we would have a little bit of a different perspective on how we all relate to one another.

• 36:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but like, is that, is that, so is Elphaba a villain, though?

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Um, I think she sort of like reclaimed. I think, I think neither is really a villain or a hero. Like, I think they kind of swap places frequently, Glinda and Elphaba. And I do think that like, one of the reasons why the, the musical and the first movie are so popular is because people really find a lot of stories of acceptance, like, from the, like, from, you know, identifying with Elphaba, or identifying, you know, with like, some, like, the animals or whatever.

• 36:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and it, it just feels like completely spring-loaded to be projected onto the queer experience, or, uh, communities that have been cast out, like, and so that, that character, the Elphaba character, you know, and then it's kind of double-charged by, you know, shifting from Idina Menzel to Cynthia Erivo.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 36:59Sean Fennessey?

  A black performer, and then that loads the movie up even more so by saying like, "Hey, if you put that valence on it, this can be a very deep story." Which I think has power. Like, I think that conception of that idea is really interesting, and you know, we're talking about comic book movies and superhero stuff, like, this is something that good superhero stories can do. They can say like, "You think that this person is the bad guy, the vigilante, but actual", I mean, that's fucking Batman. Batman is like, at the beginning of this Batman story, it's like, "This fucking guy keeps thinking he can be better than a police officer." And then you see, so it's a, it's a very common structure. The problem that I have with it in this movie specifically is that it's totally undermined by the one-dimensionality of the wizard and Madame Morrible, and the fact that like, in order for a movie to movie, there still has to be this-

• 37:43Sean Fennessey?

  Undynamic, good versus evil structure. Where you're like, what does the wizard even want? Where does he come from? What does Madame Morrible want? What does she represent? Why do they hate animals? Like, we don't know anything about all of this stuff.

• 37:57Amanda Dobbins?

  My friend Gilbert Cruz from the New York Times, like, what is the political structure of Oz? Like, what am I even trying to, like, seriously?

• 38:02Sean Fennessey?

  I can't understand it.

• 38:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Who's the governor? Like, what is, but that's an inherited position? Like, what's Muchenland districting? Like, I don't understand.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  I don't have a lot of answers on that. I was just gonna say, like, I think that also, for me, that's why I was so annoyed that Fierro's role. Like, when Glinda's crying over Fierro, or like, you know, Fierro and Alphabet together, I was just like, this is such a distraction from like, what this was like, sort of supposed to be about, and moved away from it. But to answer your question about the political structure of Oz, I think that also, in part of the stretching, and like, I thought of this last year too. I always think of it as like, Silly Putty. It's like, it's like when you print something on Silly Putty, and then you stretch it out, so it's all still there.

• 38:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  That's exactly what this movie feels like to me. And I kind of cannot understand how the same writer wrote the stage musical that wrote the movie. Because I'm like, why would you destroy your own work this way? Like, I do not get it. Because they added, you know, they added in the two new songs. And I think that, like, forever, whatever reason.

• 39:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Which are the two new, yeah?

• 39:04Speaker 03

  Yes, Ariana Grande's solo, and Cynthia Erivo's solo that is not No Good Deed. I forgot the name of it. I'll look it up in a second. But they each get a song for themselves. It's in the first half of the movie. So they use it for like, exposition.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  And

• 39:22Amanda Dobbins?

  No Place Like Home is one of the new songs. I wondered.

• 39:25Sean Fennessey?

  Heinous.

• 39:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, yeah.

• 39:27Sean Fennessey?

  Fucking heinous.

• 39:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I was like, this feels like they wrote this for a tie-in.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think that those two songs get the most, like, pause. They get the most gravity, excuse the pun, in the movie. And I just think it's like a total waste. They contribute nothing, and they're totally forgettable songs. But I think in adding in all this extra stuff, you really lose the sense of the world, and it feels so disconnected. Because like, I thought that the reveal of Oz in the first movie was kind of exciting. You're like, oh, this is like, this, you know, pretty like magical place and whatever. But then it just becomes like this like dark cave that it feels like they were turned to time and again. And you have like no idea what the geography is like either. Like, how long does it take to get from Munchkinland to Oz? Like, I thought it took Dorothy a while on Yellow Brick Road.

• 40:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Are those the only two places in Oz?

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Um, I believe there's others, but those are the two that we know of.

• 40:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 40:18Sean Fennessey?

  Is Shiz located in Munchkinland?

• 40:21Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 40:21Sean Fennessey?

  Is this a difference? These things like don't matter unless there's failure in the storytelling, which makes you ask those questions. That's really the part that I'm making is like, if you're going to build out this whole world and try to fit. Because nobody was watching The Wizard of Oz in 1939 and saying like, what is the governing body of the wizard? Like, the movie just sweeps you away, you know? And this movie doesn't sweep you away. This movie makes you go, what?

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:43Sean Fennessey?

  Why is that happening? And that's a huge problem with the storytelling. And I think you're right that it's probably mostly in the scripting and...

• 40:51Speaker 03

  It's a problem, yeah. I just think like, they added in so much literalism too. It's just like, it doesn't need to be so literal. Like, people will get it. I don't know.

• 41:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's my whole thing with, with The Wizard of Oz, components of it, because if you accept that both versions of the story are very metaphorical, then trying to understand why there's this desire. I, I, I honestly couldn't make heads or tails of it. I, I was watching it and I watched it with my, my four-year-old daughter and she was like, this is probably the best movie that has ever been made. You know, there's just a tremendous amount of Glinda in this movie. This is very much Glinda's movie.

• 41:26Amanda Dobbins?

  The pink dresses are wonderful.

• 41:27Sean Fennessey?

  She, the bubble is like, is crack, you know? There's, there's things in the movie, of course, that are cool. Like, there's cool, really cool design in this movie. Some of the songs are good. I do think For Good is really, really good. We listened to that in the car as soon as we went home. Like, it's not like a zero. The movie is not like a disaster, but it raised such frustration, which is the first word that you used, Juliette.

• 41:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Sean Fennessey?

  And such, it's, I just found it really enervating trying to understand what it's trying to accomplish.

• 41:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, I mean, I agree. And that's why I asked Juliette, what is the, at least the original stage production that has resonated with millions of people trying to accomplish? Because the movie could not communicate it to me.

• 42:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 42:05Amanda Dobbins?

  And let's be clear, once they bring in like the Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins. I preposterous, just absolutely silly, you know?

• 42:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. So is Dorothy a component in, in the stage musical?

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Yes, but not like, no, someone like plays her, but you like only see like allusions to her. Like she's not like a, a, a walking body like she is in Wicked for Good.

• 42:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, her, she's kind of introduced as like a side villain in the story. It's like, this is just some girl who landed in a tornado. It like, it literalizes the tornado and like the, the bridge between worlds. Like it's very like Thor, the dark world where you're like, she could ride on a rainbow all the way to Oz. Like that's not what this fucking Wizard of Oz is about. It's a dream. Am I crazy?

• 42:52Amanda Dobbins?

  No, and then she literally kills Elphaba's sister, who's definitely like a petty fascist. So again, I don't understand how she got her power to enact all of that stuff.

• 43:03Sean Fennessey?

  Because her mother was magical.

• 43:04Amanda Dobbins?

  No, her father was the governor and she inherited the job from the father, which I read on like one of the little poster news printouts, like Munchkin Gazette or whatever.

• 43:14Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  I think you're using two different definitions of power. Amanda's referring to her political power and Sean's referring to her wizardry.

• 43:20Sean Fennessey?

  Right. You served as the opinion editor at the Munchkin Gazette for six years or nine years? How long was it?

• 43:27Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I was working on the tabloid that the SpongeBob steals at some point to learn that he has to go to the wedding to convene everyone.

• 43:35Sean Fennessey?

  All right. B O Q.

• 43:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. So, but so they literally kill her.

• 43:40Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 43:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and then also she's like, so Dorothy is like a murderer in the text of Wicked for Good. And then, and then when they finally get to the song for good, she is just like a real girl trapped in a basement cellar, like in a cellar, suffocating for the extent of like three songs. And I kept being like, but Dorothy can't breathe and you're gonna have to let her out if you want everything else to continue. So I, I, they really literalized it way too much for me.

• 44:15Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, in terms of it being stretched. Can you give me an example besides the two songs of something that's been added to this story? Like, is there a set piece? Or a, because going from two and a half hours to four and a half hours is insane. And I just want to pitch like a theory about this. That because the first act is so important and so big, and the first film is two hours and 40 minutes. I wonder if there's just a ton of padding in the back half so that the second movie turned out to be not one hour and 27 minutes, which would seem uneven relative to the previous kind of expansive epic experience of the first film.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Well, I even just felt like the last 10 minutes, I was like, it's taken a really long time to get her back in that bubble that we saw the beginning of the first movie. Um, I think the way that it stretches, like, they just add in, like, there was more around As Long As Your Mind, which is like the love song between Elphaba and Jonathan Bailey, uh, Fierro. Um, which I, and like, I think that they really, they do this in both movies. They kind of interrupt the songs to have some movie action and then go back to the song. So I would say they sort of like add in scenes like here and there without, and then the two wholesale new songs. But so it's not necessarily like, this is like a brand new thing, but it's like along the path, they add in extra scenes of how they got there.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  And then the main thing I would say that is really, really turned up is the animals. Like, there's not, there's not like all of these confrontations with the animals. Elphaba does like find Dr. Dilemma into the goat again and like realize that he's, you know, can't speak or whatever. But there's just way, way, way more animal interactivity. And there's not really like, as I recall, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't really recall the equivalent of like a Noah's Ark kind of scene happening in the stage show.

• 45:59Amanda Dobbins?

  So this thing where the goat can't speak is text-based and not that Peter Dinklage was no longer available?

• 46:07Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 46:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I definitely thought I was like, oh, they, they didn't want to, there was like a scheduling or a money thing. And I know they filmed this all at once, but that's what I assumed.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's, uh, it's canon, if you will.

• 46:19Sean Fennessey?

  I'm genuinely astonished by your soft zag on Wicked for Good because there's so much animal stuff in it. I know you hated that in the first film.

• 46:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, they don't sing. Um, and they don't sing.

• 46:29Sean Fennessey?

  I have a question about that.

• 46:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 46:31Sean Fennessey?

  Why do the animals forget how to speak when they're in captivity?

• 46:37Speaker 03

  I think, I think that they like do something to them, like give them like drugs or whatever.

• 46:41Sean Fennessey?

  Do we see that at some point?

• 46:43Speaker 03

  To maim them. Um, no, I don't think so.

• 46:46Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, I'm.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  But it's similar.

• 46:48Sean Fennessey?

  So we just have to assume that like because their like animalhood has been taken from them that they can no longer speak?

• 46:53Speaker 03

  I think so. I mean.

• 46:54Sean Fennessey?

  What is this world?

• 46:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Like what?

• 46:56Speaker 03

  As you know, I'm not pro animals. So that's very tricky for me.

• 47:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I, it's same, like we should be nice to them. You know, they shouldn't suffer. And obviously they're, they're like in a very amorphous metaphor here, you know, for like all things that are not.

• 47:10Sean Fennessey?

  You dismissively saying animals should not suffer is really, you guys are bordering on evil. Like animals are obviously incredibly important to this ecosystem and to our ability to relate to living creatures. Okay.

• 47:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, but so the animals, so there's the Noah's Ark scene, but, but that nice bear needs to talk to Elphaba. And that's like a family, point of family connection. I'm also softer on bears because of Paddington right now.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 47:33Amanda Dobbins?

  That's big in our house. So I guess those other animals were wandering around, but like that didn't read to me as like the animals have taken control. There was no goat singing. Um, also, you know, I had seen the original Wicked, so I knew that a goat singing was a possibility. Then there's the scene with the cages, but like that was pretty quick, you know?

• 47:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, but even that like I think stretches it out. And then I think a lot of this stuff between Elphaba and Fiero is also sort of, um.

• 48:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Are there animals? What'd you say? There aren't animals in that.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  No, but I'm just saying in terms of like what's longer. But the, but there are some like that, that like Noah's Ark scene, maybe I just hated it. I was like, this feels long. Um, and I think there's some other times where like, just like Elphaba's alone. That was my takeaway is like Elphaba's alone a lot in this movie.

• 48:23Amanda Dobbins?

  She definitely has like save the animals scribbled on various posters in her tree room just for her, like.

• 48:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, big time Krasinski whiteboard in a quiet place energy there where it's like, I'm pretty sure she'd remembered to, to save the animals. If that was the guiding principle of her life for several years in which she was living in exile. I, this movie is idiotic, guys. Like, what is going on?

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Another thing that I think was just like stretched out was like the fight scene, which I thought in some ways was really charming. Like they do like meet again after, you know, Nessa dies and everything. But like that was stretched out too. Like there's just like more fluff in there. There's not like Glinda, there's not like one of them just like looking around and then the other arrives. Like they just, they just add stuff in like at every juncture, basically, every step along the way to make it feel longer. Um, yeah. In the play or in the musical, why, so Nessa turns evil because? Of Bach, yeah. Oh, because of Bach?

• 49:23Sean Fennessey?

  Because she's been rejected.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, okay.

• 49:26Sean Fennessey?

  Because she's in love with him.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 49:28Sean Fennessey?

  And he's in love with Glinda.

• 49:29Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 49:29Sean Fennessey?

  And he finally comes clean about that. And then she,

• 49:34Sean Fennessey?

  you know, creates like an ice-like circumstance in which all the munchkins are not allowed to leave the country.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 49:40Sean Fennessey?

  And that whole plotline is extremely strange.

• 49:43Speaker 03

  And then-

• 49:44Sean Fennessey?

  And that explains why the munchkins are extremely happy that the wicked witch of the east has been killed. Like, these are the kind of plot contrivances that like happen over and over again in the last hour of this movie. Same with Bach becoming the Tin Man where Nessa Rose channels her hidden magical powers to make him a man made of tin. Because why?

• 50:04Speaker 03

  What happens is, and so this is also stretched, in the musical, I believe, I'm sorry if I get some of this wrong. I'm very afraid of the wizard, the wicked fandom, but I believe in the musical, Nessa is holding, like, won't let Bach leave, but has not, not created this ice-like conditions. It's more focused on Bach. And she is, she's less dictatorial, though she is, you know, grieving the loss of her father and very focused on Bach. But it is almost, that is the actual, like, this boy doesn't love me. That's not Glinda. It's, it's Nessa Rose. And so what happens is Bach tries to leave and then she try, uh, Nessa casts a spell

• 50:43Speaker 03

  that to like change how his heart feels and then to, um, save the botched job by Nessa Rose, Elphaba accidentally turns it into the, into the Tin Man.

• 50:54Sean Fennessey?

  But like, why a man made out of tin? Like, in the novel-

• 50:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Because he doesn't need a heart. That's what she says. She's like, "Don't worry, he's not gonna need a heart in this new one because the Tin Man wants the heart," you know? I mean, I didn't-

• 51:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's just so stra- I know, I know. It's just so straining, like-

• 51:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I honestly, when Fierro shows up, the Scarecrow was when I was just like, "Get out of here," because-

• 51:14Speaker 03

  That happens at the very end of the musical, if I recall correctly. Like, he's not really in it that much after As Long As Your Mind, and it's sort of like a reveal. Part of the reveal of the end is that they get to be together. It's not just like, "Oh, she's alive," but like, that's more-

• 51:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Um, clear. Also, there's no, like, Terence Malick imagery of, like, walking across the horizon in the musical, in the backstage musical.

• 51:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I was like, "Oh, so we've moved into Dune 3?"

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Like, I was just like, "This is not, this is not for me."

• 51:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Um, but that is all, like, you know, extended as well. And I, I, I think, you know, you guys talked about Ariana Grande and like, how she's still so good in this. She is. She's really robbed of the best song. Like, in the musical, it starts with, um, "Thank Goodness," which is like this really rueful song Amanda and I-

• 51:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Previewed this on Jam Session. I was really looking forward to it. It's such a beautiful song about faking happy, basically, and like, you think you're happy, but you're actually not. And, you know, she seemingly has everything that she wants. And then the musical, it's like, so, it's not just about like, "Oh, you finally engaged to this guy, like, great." It's more about like, you have everyone's adoration and you're in charge, but she's like, still not that happy.

• 52:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  And I feel like they just, they took away all of the nuance. So that, like, you're, Sean, you're right. It's actually like, we're questioning all these plot points. It's because there's no, like, ambiguity to live in here. Nothing that's like, fun to be like, "Well, maybe it's this, or maybe it's that."

• 52:32Sean Fennessey?

  They're just trying to tie everything up that is part of what is magical about the film, but if you know the book, you know that there's rational explanations for why those characters exist. Like, the Tin Man and the Scarecrow are metaphors for industrial workers and farmers. Like, that's the idea. And so you can like, port that idea over to the movie where you're like, "They live on a farm. There's this time of like, economic crisis in America in the 1930s." Like, there's all of these things that make coherent sense, so you accept the magical quality of the story. This movie is like, "We're gonna tie up all those loose threads." So you can be like, "Here's why he's a Tin Man." Like, that's not, that's not important. That's not interesting. And the movie goes to great lengths. And, and, but then furthermore, like, I had this experience, because after the movie's over, my daughter's like-

• 53:16Sean Fennessey?

  Wait, so why is Fiero the scarecrow? And so now she's gonna go back and watch The Wizard of Oz and be like, "That's Fiero." I'm like, "That's not fucking Fiero." That's some guy who works on Dorothy's farm. Alright, come on. Why are we doing this? I'm sorry, I could not do this episode without just being like, "You have mangled something." That is very true and very deep. And you have ruined it. I'm sorry.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  I think that's why, you know, I've said this before. I'm not, I don't have an emotional connection to The Wizard of Oz. And I think Wicked is better enjoyed, like, separate from The Wizard of Oz. Because then you don't have to carry any of like, the burden of like, "Well, this is actually how it goes in this true classic." So...

• 53:58Sean Fennessey?

  I actually would have been content to do that, I think, as much as I could have, if it didn't insist that it actually was The Wizard of Oz. You know, and that is really what the final hour of the movie is about.

• 54:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, and like Dorothy's running around and like, the profile is just not Judy Garland's.

• 54:11Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 54:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And like, they skated too close, but then they do a whole shadow thing and you understand why. But I was like, "Nope, I can tell that the profile..." I don't understand, uh, most of the allusions, but I was completely baffled by the ruby slipper stuff and I'd like to talk about it.

• 54:28Sean Fennessey?

  Right, so in this version of the story, uh, the ruby slippers, who do they actually go to? Nessarose at first.

• 54:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, they're, yeah, they're Nessaroses.

• 54:37Sean Fennessey?

  And they're white, they're not red.

• 54:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Not anything that's silver you'll find.

• 54:41Sean Fennessey?

  Silver, silver. And they're, they become red when she channels her magical powers? Or channels her rage?

• 54:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Or Elphaba gives her, gives them power, right?

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, Elphaba just like, "I'm gonna make you happy by helping you walk or like levitate."

• 54:56Amanda Dobbins?

  And feel the way you felt when Bach liked you or something.

• 55:00Sean Fennessey?

  But do we see Dorothy wearing them and they're silver at a certain point? So why is that?

• 55:03Amanda Dobbins?

  She sets off on the Elbric Road and they're silver. And they're silver for the rest of the time. I don't know.

• 55:06Sean Fennessey?

  What does that represent? I'm sure there's wicked heads who know.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  They don't have the power anymore, is my guess. Like, when they're not helping you feel a certain way or something. I don't know, it was very confusing. I don't have an explanation.

• 55:17Sean Fennessey?

  What?

• 55:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know!

• 55:19Sean Fennessey?

  I'm sure there's an idea there that I'm not getting, but

• 55:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I really, I really didn't get it.

• 55:23Sean Fennessey?

  Such a dramatic and iconic change is very odd.

• 55:26Amanda Dobbins?

  But then there's like the close up of her walking away with the silver shoes and the little socks.

• 55:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Amanda Dobbins?

  And I was like, that's on trend, but they're not red.

• 55:33Sean Fennessey?

  Can we, can we talk about the ending?

• 55:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you, Juliet.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  You sure can.

• 55:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, first of all, the 45 endings. Truly what on God's earth is happening at the end of this film?

• 55:45Sean Fennessey?

  Well, okay, so at the, at the, I don't know if this is what number ending this is for you, but nearer to the end, we learn that Elphaba, when she is actually, when she's been melted by Dorothy, when she throws water on her at the end of the Wizard of Oz, that she actually fakes her own death, pulled a kind of now you see me situation where she went into a trap door.

• 56:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Where Dorothy was previously suffocating to death while they sang for good. Let me ask, before we do that, was Dorothy in on the plot?

• 56:14Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think so.

• 56:16Amanda Dobbins?

  On the faking of the death?

• 56:18Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 56:18Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think so. It doesn't seem that way. So then Elphaba.

• 56:23Speaker 03

  Just ask your questions.

• 56:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No bad questions in a brainstorm, which is literally what the script of this movie is.

• 56:27Sean Fennessey?

  But it's like, so Elphaba fakes her own death so that she can run off with the scarecrow and have sex forever in solitude. And, but she can never return to Oz and she can never be accepted and she's willing to live in infamy for eternity as a true representation of evil in Munchkinland, while Glinda gets to exist as the beautiful, perfect, white avatar of grace and decency inside of this world.

• 56:58Amanda Dobbins?

  But she lets the animals come out of their hovels.

• 57:01Sean Fennessey?

  Right. But like, what, what is that message? What the hell is the movie trying to tell us?

• 57:08Speaker 03

  Well, I think Glinda's been changed for good and she'll be leading with goodness. So Elphaba is her, and her values and morals will live on through Glinda. As you noted, the white savior, not green.

• 57:21Sean Fennessey?

  But. There's a moment where Glenda could say, no, she was my friend. And she actually wasn't that bad, but she chooses to say, I knew her.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  I think that-

• 57:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Because I knew you. See, even I knew it. Even I got it.

• 57:36Sean Fennessey?

  Why, i- if Glenda is, has learned the lessons of Elphaba, why would she not say to the munchkins, no, actually Elphaba was decent and she was thrust into this power game by the wizard?

• 57:45Speaker 03

  She's still figuring it out, you know? She's, she can only be her, but she's trying to be a good version of her. Glenda the good. I don't disagree.

• 57:53Sean Fennessey?

  Does the play, does the musical end like this?

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Yes, it does.

• 57:57Amanda Dobbins?

  I had the same, I, the only, the other credit I'll give to the film is that there was about four minutes there when I thought that the film, I, I don't know, I was living in a delusional dream state, much like this film, but I thought it was gonna end with the first ending. And so I was like, what? Elphaba just dies? What the fuck is that? And, but it at least had me, you know, in its grip of like, oh, wow, they're killing off Elphaba. I don't know if this lesson is any better, which is she's not dead. She is just like getting it on with the scarecrow. I'd like to talk about their, well, I'd like to, I'd like to talk about all of them, but the, what is the line? It's not lying, it's looking at things through different eyes?

• 58:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I find that condescending and upsetting.

• 58:43Sean Fennessey?

  But that's the whole theme of the movie.

• 58:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but like, that's not, it's, what about use your own eyes to a different understanding, dumbasses?

• 58:50Sean Fennessey?

  Whoa.

• 58:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, all right. The real news. That's some Tucker Carlson shit right there. There's only one truth.

• 58:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, I was like, that is, that is a really mean thing to say to both people. I did also feel that turning Jonathan Bailey into the scarecrow was upsetting for me personally, because that man is adorable.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Just not enough Jonathan Bailey in this movie. So disappointing.

• 59:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Wonderful. He didn't really pop for me in the first one, and the second one, I was like, oh, look at this guy, you know?

• 59:18Speaker 03

  He's so great. Every time he's on, on can screen, I'm like, okay, this is nice, but he's so charming.

• 59:24Sean Fennessey?

  I can't say that, that wasn't the most credible post-sex scene I've ever seen in a movie. I'm just gonna put that out there. I, I wasn't like, wow, they- They definitely just banged. There was not a lot of heat between those two actors.

• 59:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Absolutely none. But I still was like, I was interested enough that I did think to myself, I guess I should watch this season of Bridgerton. While watching.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  No, just go back and watch season two.

• 59:46Amanda Dobbins?

  No, that's what I meant, his season, his season of Bridgerton, because you talk about it so much and you're like, he's great. So I'm pro Jonathan Bailey, but so the double whammy of number one, they've like retconned the scarecrow into this. Because I don't know, they care about farmers rights or whatever. And then.

• 1:00:03Sean Fennessey?

  They don't, that's the point.

• 1:00:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:00:05Sean Fennessey?

  They're like, this guy can be saved by making him a scarecrow?

• 1:00:09Amanda Dobbins?

  But then they've also.

• 1:00:10Sean Fennessey?

  What?

• 1:00:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Put like all of this Patrick on him and that, and the crazy, you know, scarecrow wig. And like, shout out to hair and makeup who had quite a time and are doing great work. But I was like, no, I want to see Jonathan Bailey. But that is why I came to the theater.

• 1:00:25Sean Fennessey?

  What about the whole part where he gets a brain from the wizard in the Wizard of Oz? And then does, does that actually happen in this world? And then does he have a brain with Elphaba? Or is he just a brainless scarecrow? Who's gonna, he's like a fuck buddy forever with no, like, ability to make decisions?

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  They don't literalize the Dorothy travel party in the musical stage version.

• 1:00:47Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  And so you don't really have to ask this question. You're just sort of like, oh, they've been reunited.

• 1:00:51Sean Fennessey?

  But they literally show us this in the movie, though.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. It's sort of.

• 1:00:55Amanda Dobbins?

  So he's not the scarecrow.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  What'd you say?

• 1:00:58Amanda Dobbins?

  He's not the scarecrow in the stage musical.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  He is, but they don't, they don't have you like these interstitials of Dorothy and the scarecrow and the lion and the Tin Man like walking down the Elbruck Road and then arriving in Oz. Like, you don't really see this stuff happening. Like, like, you're not part of their journey in Wicked, the musical, stage musical. So it's like, not a distraction.

• 1:01:17Sean Fennessey?

  I just want to say, so maybe so the listeners understand, like, I do get that the stage musical can kind of exist as extratextual, like outside of the experience of the novel and the original film. And you can be like, this is its own standalone thing. It's like a reinterpretation of this mythology in this world. And I would have been totally cool with that if the movie didn't bend over backwards in an incredibly like base, cheap. Marketing way to be like, this is the Wizard of Oz. And just so you know, this is what the Wizard of Oz is actually all about.

• 1:01:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And what they want is the reaction of your wonderful four-year-old daughter to go home and be like, well, now I guess I gotta look for Fierro.

• 1:01:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:01:54Amanda Dobbins?

  In the 1939 Wizard of Oz.

• 1:01:56Sean Fennessey?

  That to me is the mistake of the movie that makes me kinda crazy on this episode. Where I'm just like, why are you making me think about all this stuff if you don't really have the follow-through in terms of the connective tissue?

• 1:02:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm sorry to name names, but I think that's a John M. Chu problem. And as you know, I'm a longtime fan of John M. Chu. But I read a lot of his interviews and I think that he was, he has said he's a huge fan of the Wizard of Oz. And I feel like he had a desire to really make his mark on this version of Wicked by integrating the Wizard of Oz in more fully. He teased it in the press tour around the first movie. He came back to it time and again. And I really feel like, obviously, he didn't write the script. But I do think there's a lot of ways in which the Wizard of Oz is involved in like, in like a non-scripted way where you're just like seeing it.

• 1:02:40Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:02:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And I, I, I really think those are a lot of his choices. I, I guess I am blaming him, but I'm just maybe trying to like, explain why I think that comes up so much.

• 1:02:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, the movie itself is obviously like, it's an ingenious thing that Universal has done by splitting this into two parts, by making an event out of it. They marketed it so brilliantly for the first film last year. The connection between Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo, I heard you guys talking about that terrible thing that happened to Ariana Grande on jam session. Like, their bond is cool, like, I like that in the world that they've become close. All of that stuff is really smart. It's just, um, it's the Avengers-ification now of like, stories outside of that stuff. But like, I didn't, I didn't invent comic book movies, you know? Like, me liking comic book movies doesn't mean that every movie event now needs to have this big mythological connective tissue to stories that go back 100 years. That's, you know.

• 1:03:31Amanda Dobbins?

  But we live in a dumb world where that worked in, for comic book movies and just like thus for the movie industry. And so Hollywood is terrible at being like, oh, look, that worked that way. So now we're gonna make 45 different versions of it just like that.

• 1:03:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:03:46Amanda Dobbins?

  And in one sense, it was a good decision because it did work. Like, I don't think this movie is gonna make as much money as the original Wicked. And we should talk, I would like to talk about the press tour, Oscar chances, all of that sort of stuff. But like, to your point, this is like a success for Universal.

• 1:04:00Sean Fennessey?

  Totally.

• 1:04:00Amanda Dobbins?

  And this will make money. Is it successful artistically? I don't think anybody on this podcast thinks so.

• 1:04:06Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  No, I don't think so. I think also the other thing that's just really lost is that there's no sense of camp in this movie, whereas the first one had it. The first one with like more of the choreography, honestly, more Bowen Yang, like

• 1:04:20Sean Fennessey?

  I thought the fight scene was the one time when it was very camp. And there were a lot of laughs in my theater during that sequence, you know.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  And that was fun, I thought, and felt like appropriate. I think the superheroification of the movie really eliminated that and made it too dark and like didn't allow you to like really have the same kind of fun. And like there's not going to be a viral dance trend that comes out of this movie. And I feel like that was such a win for the first one.

• 1:04:46Amanda Dobbins?

  What was the viral dance trend in the first?

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  With the books, when they're singing, I think it's popular. It's Ariana Grande and Bowen Yang.

• 1:04:55Amanda Dobbins?

  So it wasn't when they were doing the mine stuff?

• 1:04:58Sean Fennessey?

  Oz dust.

• 1:04:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:04:59Sean Fennessey?

  Popular, that's a banger. That's a banger. That might be my favorite song.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so anyway, I just feel like that, it's not fun. Like they like really lost the sort of like silly, light fun that is the main tone of Wicked, even though the like ideas around acceptance and friendship is sort of, I think, why people get sentimental over it.

• 1:05:20Sean Fennessey?

  It's an interesting thing because, you know, Ariana Grande obviously has been super praised for her performance in both movies. She has a really, really good comic touch as an actress. Like you can see this if you watch her on SNL. She's really adept. And it's like, it's kind of Disney kid stuff, you know? Where like you kind of learn that there is a, there is a performance style that is necessary and material like this, I think, to make this stuff work. I don't think Cynthia Erivo has it as much, but it's okay because of kind of who Elphaba is as a character, that the storminess of that character doesn't necessitate it as much. But for all the time we spent with Glenda in the movie, she doesn't get to be that fun or funny in the movie because she's kind of in this mode of crisis. She's trying to figure out like what is the right way to exist in this world. And so it totally diminishes all the things that you're describing, Juliet.

• 1:06:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I also, so she's in charge of, like, what are, what are her roles or in responsibilities as Glenda the good?

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  I think she's the figurehead of all of Oz, now that the wizard is gone.

• 1:06:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, what about before? Because when the wizard's still around, when the film starts, but she is Glenda the good.

• 1:06:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, she's kind of the Hillary Clinton of this world.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, she's Secretary of State and now she's president.

• 1:06:28Sean Fennessey?

  I did write in the notes that I did see Madame Morable as the Marjorie Taylor Greene of this place. I just want to say, listen. Yo, Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yeoh are wonderful performers and have been great in movies that we have all loved. They are terribly miscast in these movies. Like, they can't sing all lick.

• 1:06:48Amanda Dobbins?

  It is, it is really, really, really tough sledding, especially with Michelle Yeoh, who like, who like, looks amazing. And I was like, I have a lot of questions about this regime, this regiment, and also this regime. But I, it's, it's just not a fit. It is not a fit.

• 1:07:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's crazy.

• 1:07:08Speaker 03

  I think he's okay. Like, I think, I think because he doesn't sing with anyone else, it's sort of like, this is the silly wizard. And I just find him so fun to watch. It's like, whatever. Michelle Yeoh, like, impacts really good songs because she's like, singing with Ariana Grande. And it's just like, no, this is not, this is not working. It was very disappointing, and thank goodness. It's a great song.

• 1:07:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, that's just a trick of the casting. And obviously, Michelle Yeoh had amazing success in Crazy Rich Asians with John Chu. You can see why they would cast her in this part. But it's just like, she's, she's literally singing a song with Ariana Grande, who is like, in the S tier of great movie musical performers alive right now.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Totally. Yeah. She sounds amazing in this movie, too. Like, she finds a different register. It's incredible. I actually like Jeff, like Jeff Goldblum, though. In defense of Jeff Goldblum over here.

• 1:07:56Sean Fennessey?

  I think he has, obviously, the oddity of the wizard.

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, the kookiness.

• 1:08:00Sean Fennessey?

  But his one singing moment, I was like, gosh, this is just, this, it just felt like amateur hour. Like, I, I was like, this is a $180 million movie. You let these people sing in the movie? Just dub them.

• 1:08:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I was just also like, why are we spending time with him? Because I know what's gonna happen to him. Like, there's no tension here whatsoever. So it just felt like filler.

• 1:08:22Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your passions.

• 1:08:27Sean Fennessey?

  Think of all of the times on this show when you've had to sit here and listen to me talk about my love for physical media and all of my recent Blu-ray splurges.

• 1:08:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. Like those friends and like me, State Farm is there to help you along the way. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have support in finding what fits for you. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:08:55Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, you mentioned you think this movie is gonna make less than the previous film. I wanted to ask you both about this. So Wicked made $758 million.

• 1:09:03Amanda Dobbins?

  So wild.

• 1:09:04Sean Fennessey?

  And it made $474 million in this country, which is a staggering amount of money for a movie musical in 2024.

• 1:09:15Sean Fennessey?

  So you think under 800 million?

• 1:09:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. It does not seem like the juice is there even within the Wicked fan community in the same way that it was. I went to a fan screening, an early fan screening, last night. Pretty much silent in my theater throughout.

• 1:09:32Sean Fennessey?

  It was pretty silent in mine, too.

• 1:09:34Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, like, no laughs, no cheering, no nothing. And, like, people were in pink and green. Like, I was there among the faithful. So the word-

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  It's a mess if you like the movie. It's, like, kinda heartbreaking. You're like, you fucked this up. You drop, just, like, drop the ball.

• 1:09:48Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think that will be the general sentiment among super fans?

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  I do. I've talked to two other people not on this podcast who've seen the movie, and they both were like, yeah, this ain't it. One of them was like, I can't sleep. I'm so mad at how bad this is.

• 1:10:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's so interesting. So the pre-sales for the movie have been incredible. Like, because people loved the first film so much. You know, you and I were very much on the outside on that one, where most people really liked that first movie. And so I think what you could see here is, like, an insane first weekend performance, like, 130, 150 million dollars. And then possibly a steep decline, but I don't know. You never know. Like, it's been a very quiet last six weeks at the box office. And I think people have been waiting for this, for Zootopia 2, for some of the awards movies to open more widely over the next two weeks, and then all leading up to Avatar. So, like, in theory-

• 1:10:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Woo! Yeah, you gestured at me, but you gotta gesture at Julia Levin.

• 1:10:38Sean Fennessey?

  I was so pleased to hear you repping for Fire and Ash. I know.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  No pun intended, once again.

• 1:10:44Amanda Dobbins?

  See, let's just-

• 1:10:45Sean Fennessey?

  Can I tell you what I did last night? I started watching a four-and-a-half-hour documentary about the movie Aliens, called Aliens Expanded.

• 1:10:51Amanda Dobbins?

  All right.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  That sounds good.

• 1:10:52Sean Fennessey?

  And it features, at great length, James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver talking about the movie. And I was just like, Jim Cameron is the fucking man. He speaks so directly and overconfidently about everything. It's genuinely, genuinely inspiring.

• 1:11:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Sigourney Weaver, forever.

• 1:11:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, she's great.

• 1:11:08Speaker 03

  Sean, how much time have you spent watching him do the press tour around the submersible that, uh-

• 1:11:13Sean Fennessey?

  You know, that's a little outside my personal interest, but I know it's in your zone.

• 1:11:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Very much in mine. And if you'd like to discuss it, I'm available later.

• 1:11:20Sean Fennessey?

  Sounds good.

• 1:11:21Amanda Dobbins?

  No, but let's talk about this press tour a little bit.

• 1:11:23Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, yeah, go ahead.

• 1:11:24Amanda Dobbins?

  As Juliette and I talked a little bit about on gym session, it has been in a lower key.

• 1:11:27Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, mostly because of like the series of like unfortunate and scary incidents that have

• 1:11:37Amanda Dobbins?

  affected Ariana Grande and as a result Cynthia Erivo as well because they are very bonded. But we haven't had the, you know, the viral moments.

• 1:11:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the holding space.

• 1:11:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And just like the, the good fun juju that was around for the first one. And there just like hasn't been as much. So I do wonder whether, you know, I think there is enough awareness from the last one and it's close enough together. Like, you're right. People who went to see the first one will go see the second one.

• 1:12:06Sean Fennessey?

  I think so.

• 1:12:07Amanda Dobbins?

  But it doesn't have the same like, like national curiosity aspect of like, well, what's going on there? Or this has taken it over in the way that the first did.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Also, don't you think part of the box office the first time was people saw it many times?

• 1:12:22Sean Fennessey?

  That is, that obviously is always a factor when a movie is getting up over $300 million domestically. You've got to have repeat viewings.

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Like sing-alongs and stuff. Like, I just don't see that happening at all.

• 1:12:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. I mean, this, I really would not want to be in a sing-along theater for this because it's either people trying to hit those notes with Ariana Grande or nothing.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just, and I know they're doing some like back-to-back screening so you can basically experience the whole thing together. But like, that's a huge time commitment in a different way. So.

• 1:12:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I'm just trying to, I'm looking at, so historically what you get is the sequel usually makes more, sometimes significantly more than the original film. And like, let's just use the, uh, the Lord of the Rings movies as a comp because I think that that's a fair kind of.

• 1:13:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Why not go to Avatar one and Avatar two?

• 1:13:06Sean Fennessey?

  Well, there was a huge gap between movies there. So I'm thinking more like-

• 1:13:08Speaker 03

  That was a joke, Sean. Just love Avatar.

• 1:13:10Sean Fennessey?

  The Way of Water did very- did The Way of Water make more money than? It probably did just because of inflation.

• 1:13:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Sean Fennessey?

  But so the first Lord of the Rings movie made 900 million worldwide, the second made 920, and the third made 1.1 billion.

• 1:13:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:13:21Sean Fennessey?

  So I think it's, it'll be interesting. If it makes less, that's a big indictment on the movie. That's pretty uncommon for something like that to happen, but we'll see.

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  I think with the marketing, the vibes are just, it's just so bad. I was thinking about it. Amanda and I touched on this on Jam Session. The New York premiere, Cynthia Erivo was sick, allegedly, and so then Ariana Grande also declined to do interviews. The more that I thought about that after we talked on it, I was just like, that's super weird. She's like out of solidarity. That's not the same as like the holding space moment. And I'm just like, there's gotta be something going on behind the scenes there that's just like, this has really gone awry. I also would not be surprised if Ariana Grande was like, keep me away from everyone after what happened in Singapore. Um, plus, I mean, you know, the gossip, the rumors that she and, and, um, Bach, uh, Ethan Slater have broken up, which I think that has to be hard. Like, I mean, very high-profile relationship.

• 1:14:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Has he been on the trail?

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  Um, it's been kind of funny. Yes, he has. And apparently they're always like far apart. I watched, um, the Wicked Wonderful Night special and like, it's like a very big, like everyone's in an armchair and it's like the whole 10-person cast and they're like far away from each other. So I think there's been no interaction. That said, there was no public interaction between them from the first movie either.

• 1:14:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  But I think there's a lot more like reading between the lines right now.

• 1:14:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:14:37Sean Fennessey?

  It's hard to say whether something like that affects it or not. There's been this big discussion about whether or not being available in, in for all these press opportunities is a good thing or a bad thing for movies. And, you know, it's funny that, you know, I know Matt Bellany wrote about this recently. It's been discussed quite a bit. I think Chris and Andy talked about it on their show too. I just think it's like about the material. Like if people are interested in the movie, like no, people are not interested in Die My Love because it's a very difficult art house film.

• 1:15:01Speaker 03

  Well, yeah. I mean, a number of things went wrong with that, including that you, they used Katniss Everdeen and Robert Pattinson and then people walk into a very small movie that opened in 2000 theaters, which is also like insane.

• 1:15:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Yeah. But this is a different story where like, I don't know if people could have gotten enough. of Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo around the first Wicked film. They loved seeing them together all the time.

• 1:15:21Amanda Dobbins?

  And I do think that it buoyed it, but it's

• 1:15:23Sean Fennessey?

  Totally.

• 1:15:23Amanda Dobbins?

  but they were promoting something that in Wicked that has its own fan base and its own.

• 1:15:28Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:15:28Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's like awareness of a lot of things.

• 1:15:30Sean Fennessey?

  And it was like intertwined in the film.

• 1:15:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and I think that that's where it works. I think that they they help the IP and the IP helps them.

• 1:15:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:15:38Amanda Dobbins?

  But to do it without any IP at this point.

• 1:15:41Sean Fennessey?

  That's a lesson to all the movie marketers. It's like, don't just like play flip cup with your two stars, like unless there's flip cup in the movie. You know what I mean? Like they're kind of, you need to make it about what the experience of the thing is going to be about. Um, let's briefly talk about the Academy Awards. Um, I heard you say this actually on Jam Session and you know, we've been slotting Wicked for Good pretty comfortably into Best Picture for two months now because the first film got 10 Academy Award nominations. It won two Oscars for costume design and best production design. And it's obviously, it was very hugely appreciated by the community of movie makers. I think all of the branches found something to like about the movie. And then now we're like, ah, maybe it'll disappoint a little bit at the box office. It's clearly like lower on the critical reception.

• 1:16:24Sean Fennessey?

  The super fans may not feel strongly about it. Like, is there a world where this is not nominated for Best Picture?

• 1:16:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I have started wondering about it.

• 1:16:31Speaker 03

  Doesn't deserve it, that's for sure.

• 1:16:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but that deserve don't don't count when it comes to the Best Picture.

• 1:16:38Sean Fennessey?

  I I'm not sure yet. I'm not ready to write it off.

• 1:16:40Amanda Dobbins?

  But I do also, the that conversation on Jam Session came up in light of the marketing run and the and the and the bad vibes, which would affect an awards campaign. And I do think that they ran a great, you know, they went straight from the press campaign for the movie into the press campaign for the Oscars and Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande. Especially were just out and about working it.

• 1:17:06Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:07Amanda Dobbins?

  And I think understandably, they might not want to do that again.

• 1:17:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they will be nominated again, though, both of them. I'm pretty sure both of them will be. Maybe Cynthia Erivo is a little in danger, but I don't think so. I think they both will. And because of that, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to hoof it, you know, like that's a lot of work to spend three months trying to tell people that you deserve to get a gold statue.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  And Ariana Grande has signaled in every way possible that explicitly saying it that she's basically done with music and just wants to be an actress. So I feel like this is very much what she wants right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if like, you know, she does get nominated to see her working for it. Right. I do feel like it's slightly different with Cynthia Erivo because she's like, has a different kind of esteem. I'm sure she wants an Oscar, not to like denigrate that, but as a Tony winner, it's just like a little bit different, I think.

• 1:17:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  How you approach it.

• 1:17:52Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I don't, it's impossible to know either of their motivations in terms of the award season. I do think that Ariana Grande has a significant chance to win.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Sean Fennessey?

  And...

• 1:18:01Speaker 03

  She is great. She is so good in this role.

• 1:18:03Sean Fennessey?

  She's gonna get...

• 1:18:04Speaker 03

  It's so fun to watch.

• 1:18:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And she's gonna get a lot of the high marks and because she's at the center of so much of the story. So like, I think it's probably reasonable to again, expect costume design and production design to be nominated. I think makeup and hairstyling will get nominations.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe score, but I don't think so because score is super competitive this year. Sound and visual effects, maybe. I definitely don't think best editing is in play this year. It got best editing last year, which is just fucking heinous. Supporting actress, here's who we're talking about, okay? I don't know if, you probably haven't seen all these movies, Julia, but just hang with us on this.

• 1:18:36Speaker 03

  Almost impossible that I've seen any of them.

• 1:18:38Sean Fennessey?

  So, both, so Tiana Taylor for One Battle After Another, Amy Madigan for Weapons, Ariana Grande for Wicked, Inga Ibs' daughter, Lilias, from Sentimental Value, Elle Fanning from Sentimental Value, Glenn Close from Wake Up Dead Man, Odessa Azian from Marty Supreme, we have not talked about her, speaking of I Love LA, Won Me Musako from Sinners, Gwyneth Paltrow from Marty Supreme, I don't see that happening, or Gina Hall, but this is kind of the bottom of the list. It's very possible that there's a big one battle swoon and that Tiana Taylor is a part of that swoon and it becomes a night where that movie wins seven awards. It's also possible it goes the exact other way. We haven't seen a lot of years where a film wins five, six, seven Oscars. Now they tend to spread the wealth. This would be the way.

• 1:19:23Sean Fennessey?

  To recognize Wicked would be to award Ariana Grande. I could see that happening.

• 1:19:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I can too. Um, I would be tough for that to win over Tiana Taylor in one battle after another. For me personally, also, and just, you know, politically.

• 1:19:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And in everything that implies.

• 1:19:40Sean Fennessey?

  Literally the white avatar princess of Oz reigning.

• 1:19:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Dude, you're just like, just really, really not good. Um, but she is very good in it. And I think if, I hope she gets a couple of weeks off. It seems unlikely. But um, give, let her rest for a little bit and then get back in the game for, for Golden Globes. And, and start the campaign and it could happen.

• 1:20:02Sean Fennessey?

  Have you seen Marty Supreme yet, Juliet?

• 1:20:04Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I'm looking forward to it though.

• 1:20:06Sean Fennessey?

  Some, some, so I know, I heard you say Uncut Gems was not your flavor, but there is a distinct New York energy in Marty Supreme.

• 1:20:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  There wasn't Uncut Gems too.

• 1:20:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  I'm surprised to hear myself say I'm looking forward to it. Sometimes, some days I am, some days I'm not. Today I'm like, yeah, that sounds kind of good. The Gwyneth Paltrow of it is appealing to me.

• 1:20:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, she's.

• 1:20:24Amanda Dobbins?

  She's good, but I.

• 1:20:25Sean Fennessey?

  It's Odessa Azian's.

• 1:20:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Sean Fennessey?

  Time in that movie.

• 1:20:28Amanda Dobbins?

  And you know, you if.

• 1:20:29Sean Fennessey?

  Movie rocks.

• 1:20:30Amanda Dobbins?

  If you didn't like the 18 minute marketing stunt though, I don't know whether this is gonna be the experience that you're looking for. I love Marty Supreme.

• 1:20:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's really great. Um, okay.

• 1:20:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I want a jacket, but like they gave one to Tom Brady instead.

• 1:20:44Sean Fennessey?

  A Marty Supreme jacket? Tom Brady was wearing a Marty Supreme jacket?

• 1:20:47Amanda Dobbins?

  He's part of like the greatest campaign. I know it's tough.

• 1:20:49Sean Fennessey?

  That's just not at all what I want to hear.

• 1:20:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen.

• 1:20:52Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm gonna call Josh and tell him, take that jacket off that New England Patriot.

• 1:20:56Amanda Dobbins?

  We should probably have a thing where just like for five minutes. Juliet and I have YouTube corner where she just tells me what she's watching on YouTube. And I guess I should just tell you what's happening on Instagram, like once a week for five minutes. That happened on Instagram.

• 1:21:09Sean Fennessey?

  That would be a good social media strategy. Yeah. Just, just keeping, keeping Sean up to date with the, the comings and goings of social media.

• 1:21:16Speaker 03

  And then you clip it and then you do hashtag Tom Brady, hashtag Marty Supreme. See what you get.

• 1:21:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:22Sean Fennessey?

  That sounds really good. That sounds excellent. I did want to share this one tidbit that I thought was really interesting that Scott Feinberg from the THR had, which is that Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande could become the seventh and eighth performers to land multiple acting nominations for playing the same part in different years. Now, you already read this, right? This would have been a good quiz for you. I should have set it up as a quiz.

• 1:21:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, but I don't remember, so I...

• 1:21:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, can you... You want to try to guess?

• 1:21:45Amanda Dobbins?

  The two I remember, because I just read them, were Sylvester Stallone for Rocky and Creed.

• 1:21:50Sean Fennessey?

  And Creed.

• 1:21:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and then Kate Blanchett for Elizabeth and Elizabeth the Golden Age.

• 1:21:57Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:21:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so, but I don't remember any of the others. Juliet, jump in as well.

• 1:22:02Speaker 03

  How many others are there?

• 1:22:03Sean Fennessey?

  That is... There's... That's two. There's four more.

• 1:22:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Four more. Uh...

• 1:22:08Sean Fennessey?

  There's one very famous Oscar win in the second appearance of this actor's character.

• 1:22:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Paul Newman, Hud and, uh... Not, no, not Hud. Hustler and Color of Money.

• 1:22:17Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:22:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, do, do, do. Okay, so, let's see.

• 1:22:22Sean Fennessey?

  There's a tremendously iconic version of this.

• 1:22:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, Fran... Is it a franchise-type thing?

• 1:22:29Sean Fennessey?

  Sort of.

• 1:22:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, is it a Godfather situation?

• 1:22:32Sean Fennessey?

  It is, yes.

• 1:22:32Amanda Dobbins?

  So, it would be Pacino, right?

• 1:22:35Sean Fennessey?

  Pacino, Godfather and Godfather Part II.

• 1:22:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, and then...

• 1:22:39Sean Fennessey?

  We've got one more that you may not get, but you admire.

• 1:22:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, I did read this.

• 1:22:44Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:22:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Because it's Peter O'Toole and it's Lion and Winter and then I honestly did it, like Samuel Beckett, something?

• 1:22:50Sean Fennessey?

  Beckett, no, it's just Beckett, yeah.

• 1:22:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and then the last one, for the real heads, is Bing Crosby for Going My Way and The Bells of St. Mary's, which, just like Wicked and Wicked for Good, came out in consecutive years. He won for Going My Way and then appeared again in Bells. Have you seen The Bells of St. Mary?

• 1:23:08Speaker 03

  No, but should I check it out tonight?

• 1:23:09Sean Fennessey?

  It's not a bad film. It's about a priest. It's about an Irish priest.

• 1:23:12Amanda Dobbins?

  It's also a song on the Phil Spector Christmas album.

• 1:23:15Sean Fennessey?

  Is it?

• 1:23:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Bells of St. Mary, yeah.

• 1:23:19Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, okay, cool. Um, did you see all the people who went to go see the Pope? What'd you think about that? All the cinema people?

• 1:23:25Speaker 03

  Uh, I thought it was cool, honestly.

• 1:23:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  I thought it was cool. I think this Pope seems pretty great.

• 1:23:29Sean Fennessey?

  He opened his arms to the artistic community and cinema. And frankly, we love to see it.

• 1:23:33Speaker 03

  And Chicago sports. Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 1:23:34Sean Fennessey?

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  Uh, he seems like a great guy. Good choice, everybody.

• 1:23:38Sean Fennessey?

  Where can we find you on, on, on the internet and on podcasts?

• 1:23:42Speaker 03

  On Mondays and Thursdays, you can find me on Bachelor Party. On Tuesdays, you can find me on Jam Session. And on Fridays, you can find me on Food News.

• 1:23:51Sean Fennessey?

  Wow, a podcasting freak. You're all over the place.

• 1:23:54Speaker 03

  Honestly, too many. I know you're all thinking.

• 1:23:58Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, okay, Juliet, thank you for your time. Thank you for your wicked insights.

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  It's an honor. Have a great rest of your podcast.

• 1:24:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Thanks, Juliet. See you Tuesday.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  When the sun goes down, the appetizers come out. Yeah, you heard that right. Late night half-price appetizers are here at Applebee's. Saucy, sweet and spicy boneless wings. Crispy, cheesy mozzarella sticks. Creamy spinach and artichoke dip. Your favorite apps half-price available every single night because why should appetizers have curfews? Tap the banner to learn more. Dining only for a limited time at participating locations. Restrictions apply. Copyright 2026 Applebee's Restaurant LLC.

• 1:24:38Speaker 04

  Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10" once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at carvana.com.

• 1:25:09Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, just me and you now.

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:25:11Sean Fennessey?

  Tell the truth, you, you actually loved Wicked Part Two. You didn't want to reveal it in front of Juliet because you knew she was frustrated. It's your favorite movie of the year.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:25:18Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:25:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, I've got the family costume for next year all set to go.

• 1:25:22Sean Fennessey?

  You're playing the lion.

• 1:25:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I was gonna say, I'm the scarecrow.

• 1:25:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I'm the nice bear with all the stuff on her back.

• 1:25:29Sean Fennessey?

  You kinda have that energy.

• 1:25:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, I think you.

• 1:25:31Sean Fennessey?

  The sweet bear, that's what I think of when I think of you.

• 1:25:33Amanda Dobbins?

  My family nickname is actually bear, that's what Zach calls me.

• 1:25:35Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, that's nice. That's not your energy at all. More of a cheetah, I would say. Um, okay. Train Dreams. Let's talk about this movie. I've been telling you about Train Dreams.

• 1:25:45Amanda Dobbins?

  For like honestly nine months.

• 1:25:47Sean Fennessey?

  Since January.

• 1:25:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Sean Fennessey?

  Now, I saw the movie on my couch during virtual Sundance. And I did the thing that I always do, which is like, I've had a full day, I've been podcasting, I get home, pick up my daughter from school, play with her for three hours, go to bed, eat dinner, and then fire.

• 1:26:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Go to bed, eat dinner?

• 1:26:02Sean Fennessey?

  Go downstairs, put her to bed. I don't go to bed.

• 1:26:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:26:06Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, and then fire up three Sundance movies in a row from, you know, 8:00 PM through 1:00 AM.

• 1:26:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Terrible system.

• 1:26:11Sean Fennessey?

  And I think it is really a bad system, but I think I started watching this movie at like 10:30 PM. And usually when that happens, I get really tired and I'm like, I'll finish this tomorrow or something. And I stayed up all the way till 1:30 in the morning for this one and was really moved, really knocked out.

• 1:26:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:26:26Sean Fennessey?

  Um, it's directed by Clint Bentley. I mentioned it's co-written by Bentley and Greg Quedar. Greg was on the show last year. Because these two guys have this partnership where they make movies and they kind of trade year to year who's the director and who's the co-writer-producer. Last year, their movie was Sing Sing, which we both really liked a lot. So, if you liked Sing Sing, or if you saw Jockey, which is Clint's first film, you know that they're, it's very sincere guys, very, very kind of like direct emotional filmmakers who are really interested in the human condition. This new movie is based on this Dennis Johnson novella, which I had not read prior to seeing the movie and then kind of read through a little bit after I saw the film the first time. It's about, um, a logger named Robert Grenier who works to build the railroads across the United States. And so he's constantly moving away from his home.

• 1:27:11Sean Fennessey?

  And, you know, he eventually starts a family and he moves away from his family. And we watch really this entire guy's life unfold over roughly two hours. And the film's shot beautifully. It's very much a kind of a naturalistic look at the world in the early 1900s.

• 1:27:29Sean Fennessey?

  What did you think of Train Dreams?

• 1:27:31Amanda Dobbins?

  So you have been talking about this for 10 months and you just keep saying it's like a beautiful movie about logging and the Pacific Northwest and like all this stuff. And you are not the film's best marketer, you know, is what I would say. Or you were not marketing well to me because I rolled my eyes every time you talked about this. And then I saw this movie and it is beautiful and wonderful. And I guess it like is about a logger and they're, I mean, sure, their logging happens.

• 1:27:58Sean Fennessey?

  There's a lot of logging in the film.

• 1:28:00Amanda Dobbins?

  There is a lot of-

• 1:28:00Sean Fennessey?

  And I'm not talking about Letterboxd.

• 1:28:02Amanda Dobbins?

  There is a lot of logging, but it is also, it's a movie about a family. And I thought, and a man dealing with his family. And it was absolutely upsetting and like, and beautiful. And one of those things where you, you feel the emotions that you're supposed to feel like very early on in the, in the film. And it does like keep grabbing you. It like, it really connects with the audience.

• 1:28:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's an interesting thing because the novella, just like the movie is very episodic. And so it's kind of like beat to beat, job to job for Robert. Or, you know, he meets his eventual wife and played by Felicity Jones.

• 1:28:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is another thing, you didn't even tell me till I sat down. And I am, I'm a pretty black licorice with Felicity Jones. And I was like, oh no, she was wonderful in this.

• 1:28:46Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I was afraid you were gonna hate it.

• 1:28:47Amanda Dobbins?

  She was wonderful in this.

• 1:28:48Sean Fennessey?

  I think she's, I mean, I do like her and have always liked her, so I was happy to see her. But I was a little worried that you were gonna be like, I can't with this because I think this is such a nice movie. And, you know, I didn't want you to hate it honestly. Sometimes I don't care if you hate a movie, but this was one where I was like, I really hope she doesn't get on the bottom. Be like, fuck this.

• 1:29:03Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:29:03Sean Fennessey?

  But I, I think the book is very strange and the movie takes some liberties with the book that I honestly don't love. Definitely, the Robert Corning your character is not in the book, this like beautiful, innocent, almost like angel type figure moving through this period in existence. He's kind of more complicit in some of the more unfortunate stuff that happens in the book. And so I think it does, it puts a different valence on the story.

• 1:29:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:29:30Sean Fennessey?

  Where this is more like a kind of a very innocent man trying to move through a very uninnocent world. Whereas in the book, it's more like the world is cruel and it moves quickly. And it's hard to live simply. And it's not a bad thing, but it is a very different perspective on it, especially in the first part of the book. Some of which, some specific things that they changed. Nevertheless, like- Joel Edgerton is kind of my Felicity Jones. I never liked Joel Edgerton. I've said on multiple pods, like if you just take him out of other movies he's in and replace him with, you know, count the list of names, you know, you're Jake Gyllenhaal, Andrew Garfield, like a bunch of other actors who I just like more.

• 1:30:09Amanda Dobbins?

  That's definitely how you save Baz Luhrmann's The Great Gatsby.

• 1:30:13Sean Fennessey?

  That wouldn't save it, but you know, it would improve it in my opinion. But I usually just can't really connect to him as an actor. I thought he was very, very good in this and it's a challenging part because he doesn't say a lot, this character. You really have to kind of like live through his pain experience. He has a lot of trauma in the movie. I thought he was very, very good and it's not as showy as a lot of the best actor candidates that we've been talking about in the last couple of weeks. But he's, he's, he gives a great performance in this.

• 1:30:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it, it is, it is, I guess, a movie about trauma, but it doesn't, I don't think it ever says the word trauma, which is great. I think in general, you can Ctrl F any script in the world and if it actually has the word trauma stated, like bad movie, change it, even use your little thesaurus, but like once we're stating it as text, that's the sign of, you know, over simplistic structure. And this is just about, this is about loss. And so I, you know, I didn't read the novella and so I don't have that point of comparison. But I didn't mind like the, the innocence or the almost obliviousness of-

• 1:31:19Sean Fennessey?

  Like an aw shucks-iness to him.

• 1:31:20Amanda Dobbins?

  The character because I thought it created a portal just into the, what happens when like, when you lose something?

• 1:31:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:31:29Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and, and that is something that happens to all of us, but no matter how much evidence you have in life around you, like you don't expect it and you don't know how to navigate it.

• 1:31:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Amanda Dobbins?

  And so like almost just like a lost person going through, I mean, you know, literally a lost person. It, it, to me, it was a novel recreation of it and very affecting. Like, I, I was really fucking upset.

• 1:31:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's very upsetting.

• 1:31:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Sean Fennessey?

  There's stretches of the movie that are just deeply sad.

• 1:31:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:55Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and then there's a, there's a couple of things that are extraordinary about it, too. One, it's this amazing collection of character actors and actresses. You've got William H. Macy, one of the, probably, probably the best performance he's given in years.

• 1:32:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, it's so good.

• 1:32:07Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I haven't, I didn't watch Shameless. I know he spent like 10 years making Shameless, but it, when we were teenagers, William H. Macy was the best character actor in America. Like, he really was, in that stretch in the 90s and 2000s, as good as we got. And he's really quite good in this film as a fellow logger. Nathaniel Arcand in this movie, John Deere, a character actor I've always loved, Paul Schneider, Clifton Collins, who was the star, um, of, of Clint Bentley's last movie, Jockey. Like, just really kind of A-plus figures. My girl Carrie Condon swoops in for a minute.

• 1:32:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:36Sean Fennessey?

  Um, trying to do an American accent, she's doing her best. You know, it's not one of her skills.

• 1:32:40Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:32:40Sean Fennessey?

  It's just not something she's great at. Um, I got her back, though. She's trying. Um, I, when we first talked about the movie in January, I kept saying, there's a shot in the movie.

• 1:32:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:50Sean Fennessey?

  That I never saw before.

• 1:32:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:51Sean Fennessey?

  Where the camera is a, is strapped to a log.

• 1:32:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah, that was cool.

• 1:32:55Sean Fennessey?

  And at the very beginning of the movie, you see the, the, the camera following the log. It's kind of similar to how the camera is strapped to car doors all throughout One Battle.

• 1:33:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:33:02Sean Fennessey?

  There's like, every time somebody gets in a car, you can feel the door swinging closed. Those kind of perspective shots of inanimate objects that, there's not a lot of terrain of, I've not seen that before.

• 1:33:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:12Sean Fennessey?

  I really love an I've not seen that before.

• 1:33:13Amanda Dobbins?

  But you were into that one.

• 1:33:14Sean Fennessey?

  There's a couple of cool ones. And then, without ruining the movie, the, the movie has a final 10 minutes where it really takes advantage of its digital photography and puts the character in a couple of positions that seem completely outside of the experience he's been having in this very natural, simple log cabin world that he's been living in, that just like swept me up, you know? Like, you can, might feel the movie like drag a little bit, kind of into the beginning of the third act. And then by the end, I was like, just mo, deeply moved.

• 1:33:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:42Sean Fennessey?

  You know, just like, hit me like a, like a ton of bricks. So, I think, I think, just think this is a really good film. Um, it's a, it's a real paradox with Netflix, because it's a movie that, on a big screen, would just take you down the river, you know? Like, it really would be super powerful.

• 1:33:57Amanda Dobbins?

  But you watched it at home.

• 1:33:58Sean Fennessey?

  I did.

• 1:33:58Amanda Dobbins?

  On your Sundance couch.

• 1:33:59Sean Fennessey?

  And it worked, and it worked.

• 1:34:00Amanda Dobbins?

  And it, yeah.

• 1:34:01Sean Fennessey?

  And it can work and it should work, and people should watch it on Netflix, but...

• 1:34:06Sean Fennessey?

  I can't imagine it was made specifically to be seen as a streaming movie. It's great that more people will see it that way, but it doesn't feel like the ideal execution.

• 1:34:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think I know of a good movie that was made specifically for streaming. Maybe with the exception of Triple Frontier.

• 1:34:23Sean Fennessey?

  That's the thing, there is a kind of movie that works well on that experience.

• 1:34:25Amanda Dobbins?

  That's literally the only one. Even all the streaming rom-coms, I'm like, what if you had made this, though, to like be good? Instead of on streaming and then I just watched it on streaming.

• 1:34:33Sean Fennessey?

  It's a really good point. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Especially after seeing Regretting You. I've got a lot of feelings.

• 1:34:39Amanda Dobbins?

  I just couldn't be more excited.

• 1:34:42Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Oscar chances for Train Dreams before we get to my conversation with Clint.

• 1:34:45Amanda Dobbins?

  It seems in the mix. You and I were talking on the way out of a recording the other day about the international features category this year and also our assumptions about which international or non-English language features would make it into Best Picture. We have been, based on previous years and based on me always yelling at you, like, it's an international academy, academy, counting big, reserving two, maybe even three slots. I don't know if that's gonna happen in the same way and we're gonna talk about, so that's the next episode, right?

• 1:35:16Sean Fennessey?

  We'll go back to Best Picture power rankings and sentimental value in the next episode.

• 1:35:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And Regretting You. So it's sentimental value.

• 1:35:22Sean Fennessey?

  They're perfectly matched in so many ways. Like, I honestly can't believe how close they are, even though they could not have less in common.

• 1:35:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Sean Fennessey?

  I, yeah, we don't have to have that power ranking conversation yet, but I agree that there is a spot for a movie like Train Dreams, because it is a movie that, I've not met a person who's like, I didn't like that.

• 1:35:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:38Sean Fennessey?

  And that's really what you need. You need this movie to show up in like the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots, to get bumped up and up, because a couple of these movies are gonna be divisive, you know? I think Frankenstein's divisive. I think Wicked for Good's gonna be divisive. I think Avatar's gonna be divisive. These movies that feel on the bubble, when you get a movie like this, where everybody's like, damn, that was pretty good.

• 1:35:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Sean Fennessey?

  I think Jay Kelly's divisive, you know, like a bunch of these movies.

• 1:36:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, it's, we, as you said, we've got three that we feel pretty confident about, though, for the life of me, I can't remember what the third one is right now, so. Two, oh no, I remember the third. Okay, because I forgot about Hamlet, but Hamlet, yes. When is that coming out?

• 1:36:16Sean Fennessey?

  It opens November 26th and limited, wide on December 12th, so we're gonna wait on this show to do it until the film is made widely available.

• 1:36:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Buckle up.

• 1:36:24Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's the right thing to do.

• 1:36:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:36:26Sean Fennessey?

  That'll be an interesting conversation as well. Any other thoughts on Train Dreams before we go? I thought it was lovely. It's a nice movie. Let's go to my conversation now with a very nice guy, Clint Bentley.

• 1:36:40Sean Fennessey?

  Very happy to have Clint Bentley here. You're here with Train Dreams. We didn't speak for Jockey, but I liked Jockey quite a bit. And then I talked to Greg Queedare, your writing partner, producing partner for Sing Sing.

• 1:36:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:36:51Sean Fennessey?

  Another film that you were significantly a part of, but you're here now to talk about Train Dreams.

• 1:36:56Speaker 05

  I'm excited to be here. I'm a big fan.

• 1:36:57Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:36:58Speaker 05

  I'll try not to geek out.

• 1:37:00Sean Fennessey?

  Please do. I encourage you to geek out as much as possible. I do want to start with Dennis Johnson, who is an author that I like quite a bit, and I assume you do as well, since you adapted this novella. What's the first thing you ever read by him?

• 1:37:11Speaker 05

  Actually, this.

• 1:37:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah?

• 1:37:12Speaker 05

  Back when it came out. I think it came out like 2014 or something like that.

• 1:37:18Speaker 05

  And it was just like one of the books to read that year, you know? And so I read it. I didn't know who Dennis Johnson was. I was on the road, I think, at the time. And it was a nice little slim. It's like 117 pages. And I read it. It blew my mind. And I just loved it so much. And it sent me down a path of reading everything I could by Dennis Johnson. I became a huge super fan.

• 1:37:42Sean Fennessey?

  This is kind of a great place to start because it's very conquerable, you know? Like trying to start with Tree of Smoke is much more challenging.

• 1:37:48Speaker 05

  In some ways, but then in other ways, like Tree of Smoke is so narratively, if you were thinking about like pulling one and thinking like, all right, which book of his am I gonna adapt? Like, that one at least is more narratively straightforward. It's a much bigger canvas. At the same time, though, this one's 85 years in a guy's life. And

• 1:38:06Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 1:38:07Speaker 05

  But the stream of consciousness, nature of Train Dreams and the way it shifts all over the place, I actually never would have probably had the courage to think, okay, I'll adapt that one. If somebody had said, take any book of his and adapt it, you know, I don't know that I would have had the courage to say this one.

• 1:38:25Sean Fennessey?

  So what happened?

• 1:38:26Speaker 05

  Well, uh, some producers had the rights to the book. And, um, Marissa McMahon, Ashley Schleifer and Will Janowitz, who are producers on the film, they saw Jockey at Sundance. And they'd been trying to make it for a while and trying to find a filmmaker for it. And, um, lucky for me, uh, they hadn't been able to crack it. And, um, and so they reached out and, and asked if I'd be interested in adapting it.

• 1:38:49Sean Fennessey?

  And you said, I read this book and it's not adaptable.

• 1:38:51Speaker 05

  I said, it's impossible.

• 1:38:53Sean Fennessey?

  So, so like, how do you conceive of it? Cause I, I definitely have some questions about kind of like how faithful you tried to stay. And then where you made excursions away from the source material.

• 1:39:01Speaker 05

  I went back at first, I, my memory of it was, it was funny, cause like even in the years between like getting that call and, and, and like having read it initially is one of those books that like, just things would bubble up from, from time to time from it. Like scenes would come up in my mind randomly. And it just was one of those things that like, really stuck with me, one of those pieces of work.

• 1:39:24Speaker 05

  And so I went back and at first I thought like, maybe this one is unadaptable. It's like a Sound, Sound of the Fury or, um, or Hundred Years of Solitude or something like that. Um, that's, uh, but I went back and reread it with an eye towards like thinking about it as a film. And one, I just got so excited about the, the potential of it, of, of the landscape and the things that it could, that, that I could use the film to talk about.

• 1:39:53Speaker 05

  And some of the themes, the story of Robert Grenier, like this guy who, who kind of has a life, um, that's, no one would like build a statue for or anything, yet it's very beautiful and rich. And pretty quickly I felt, I felt like there was a shape for it, a narrative shape for it that, that could make it a bit more like digestible as a film, but not lose some of that wooliness that's so special about the novel or about the novella. Um, and that came pretty quickly and that stayed intact into the film. But then it was a very like, uh, difficult process with Greg of like actually doing that and, and, and actually, you know, executing it as a script was a difficult, long process. But, um, yeah.

• 1:40:38Sean Fennessey?

  I want to hear about that. But so when you're saying that you're figuring out like the appropriate structure, are you saying like, okay, I want to have?

• 1:40:45Sean Fennessey?

  These five incidents happen in Robert's life and will build the movie as like a pathway through those incidents? Like, how were you thinking about it specifically?

• 1:40:53Speaker 05

  I think generally thinking about it, I had heard an interview a while back with Paul Schrader, and he was talking about, it unlocked something about screenwriting for me, where he was talking about that screenwriting comes from the oral tradition, not from the written tradition, you know, the form of screenwriting. And he talks a lot about like, you should say your, you should just say the story of your movie to a friend or to somebody like that when you're trying to work it out. And then you'll realize very quickly like, what's interesting, what's not, what you have figured out and what you don't, what questions arise, what you forgot to talk about, and therefore it's not that interesting. And so just coming up with the shape of the general structure of the film, as to like,

• 1:41:37Speaker 05

  okay, it's gonna start with the first half, and not giving anything away, no spoilers for this, but like, the first half of the movie is going to be this section of him trying to figure out, how do you make it work with a family at home while also having to travel far away for work? And, and, and like, the push and pull of that. And the specialness of being at home, while also all the fun and the camaraderie of like, being on a logging crew with a bunch of random weirdos. And then some big event, which I won't give away, happens in the middle. And then, and then the la, the back half of the film is then, like, the narrative breaks,

• 1:42:21Speaker 05

  and the back half of the film then becomes, how do you pick up the pieces of your life and move on after unspeakable grief and tragedy? And where do you find hope?

• 1:42:32Sean Fennessey?

  So, for lack of a better word. Did you figure that out by talking through that with Greg and the oral tradition? Like, is that how you guys land on the structure, or is that something that you're doing to yourself?

• 1:42:43Speaker 05

  Again, that one like came, uh, that, they don't all come like this with our films. But it came pretty quickly like that. After going back and reading it and then sitting with it, reading the book and then sitting with it for a minute, that came pretty quickly. And then I could say that when Greg and I always use each other as like the first contact of like, is this a movie or not? You know, whether it's when he found the article for Sing Sing, um, and then sent it over and was like, okay, and here's what I'm thinking the movie could be, or with this one. And, and so I was able to say that pretty quickly, that general structure. Again, then, then the devil's in the details of like, how do you actually do that?

• 1:43:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Jockey is seemingly a very personal movie. Your father was a jockey. I just feel like you poured a lot of experience in that world into this. This is a slightly different exploration. It's a, you know, a hundred years ago and it's a world. I don't know how familiar you are with the world of logging in the Pacific Northwest. But like, how do you make yourself an expert so that you can portray it?

• 1:43:42Speaker 05

  It's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of research that, that went into it.

• 1:43:47Speaker 05

  Excuse me. Um. The things I loved about the novella were actually the things that were very personal. I think in, in some ways of like the things that he's struggling, that Grenier is struggling with of like, doing this thing that you love and this work that takes you far away from home while also wanting to be with your family. Like I experienced that as a filmmaker a lot and, and struggle with that.

• 1:44:10Speaker 05

  I was raised on a ranch and, uh, and my uncle was a logger. And I used to ride in the log trucks with him, um, on the weekends. And there's a lot of like, this question of like, how, what is our responsibility to in our relationship with nature? As, as people who live not over top of it, but really alongside of it.

• 1:44:35Speaker 05

  And then the nature of grief, like, like dealing, like, like a lot of us, like, I've dealt with some real, like, debilitating loss in my life. And that was a big thing. I think we started writing it on the tail end of COVID. And when, like, just life had completely changed for all of us. And, and there was a lot of that that went into it of just, like, trying to kind of figure out, like, where do we go from here? And, and what does it look like? Yeah, there was just so much about the, that, about the book and reading the novella that felt, not only that I could personally relate to in my own personal life, but that I felt like, even though it was telling this story of this guy who lived in the early part of the 20th century in the Pacific Northwest and was a logger,

• 1:45:20Speaker 05

  so much felt so pertinent to today. In terms of, you know, this guy feeling like a relic of another time, even while he's still alive, technology's passing him by. He doesn't know, you know, how to kind of keep up with life. Life feels like it's moving faster and faster. Like, all these things, it just felt like, this really feels like, maybe a really stunning way to talk about a lot of things we're going through today. Through this lens of, of, of this character.

• 1:45:49Sean Fennessey?

  Can you talk about actually portraying this person's vocation? And how you recreate this work? The movie opens with this, you know, really, not, doesn't open, but one of the very first things you see is the camera fixed to a, to a tree. It's being cut down. And, and the first time I saw the movie, I was like, I've not seen that, that shot before, that image before, in this exact way, which is like, I've seen a lot of movies.

• 1:46:14Speaker 05

  We've all seen a lot of images in our lives.

• 1:46:16Sean Fennessey?

  And, and that, you know, that just grabbed me. It took my breath away.

• 1:46:19Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:46:20Sean Fennessey?

  But it felt like there was a lot of intentionality in terms of showing how this work is done. I assume it's got to be challenging to recreate that environment, make it look authentic, but then not damage the, the environment that you're, that you're in.

• 1:46:34Speaker 05

  Not doing the same thing that we're, that we're criticizing here.

• 1:46:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:46:38Speaker 05

  It was a similar, like, And also like doing it safely and like having a bunch of people swinging axes and stuff like that.

• 1:46:46Sean Fennessey?

  The only other logging movie I could think of was Sometimes Agreed Notion.

• 1:46:50Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:46:50Sean Fennessey?

  Which has like one of the most devastating death scenes.

• 1:46:53Speaker 05

  The drowning.

• 1:46:54Sean Fennessey?

  The drowning, yeah.

• 1:46:54Speaker 05

  It's brutal.

• 1:46:55Sean Fennessey?

  It's insane, but you know, it's like that that movie is, you know, it's a mixed bag, but it is an amazing representation of this very dangerous world.

• 1:47:03Speaker 05

  It is, and it's also like made in the seventies and so they could just like throw logs down a hill and shit like that.

• 1:47:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, and you can't do that.

• 1:47:10Speaker 05

  And you shouldn't do it. Cannot, but should not.

• 1:47:13Sean Fennessey?

  So what did you do?

• 1:47:15Speaker 05

  Took a lot of lessons from Jockey, you know, honestly, where we were going into a space also with with in horse racing, where one, we didn't have the budget to like set up horse races in a way. And so you just, we just found ways to, we just filmed that that movie on a working racetrack and just had our scenes happening with the racing in the background, right? And we're folding our actors into those moments.

• 1:47:42Speaker 05

  And so it took a similar approach here to the trees. There are only a few trees that are are cut down in the film and all of those, we went into logging areas where they're already cutting down trees and just said, which ones are you cutting down next week on Tuesday when we want to film the scene? And they're like, that one, that one, that one. And we're like, okay, can we bolt a camera to a tree while you cut down that tree that you're already going to cut down? And so trying to be thoughtful of that, of in terms of that perspective, also our production designer and her team, Alex Schaller, they were amazing. We, there are a few scenes where they're cutting into these big old trees and laying in a notch of one.

• 1:48:22Speaker 05

  And that is a like wooden and fiberglass tree that they made. They made a big like 12 foot tall stump that then we could have our actors sawing into and then we extend the top with VFX and.

• 1:48:37Sean Fennessey?

  That is seamless. I would have never guessed that.

• 1:48:40Speaker 05

  There's a ton of VFX. I mean, our production design team is amazing in terms of what they did, and giving us big stumps that we could just place in different areas, you know, that look very real. And then our VFX supervisor, Ilya Mokhterizawa, is amazing. And there's a lot of VFX. I'm proud to say, like, there's a lot of VFX in the movie, and you wouldn't know it by watching it.

• 1:49:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's really impressive.

• 1:49:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, which is hard VFX to do.

• 1:49:03Sean Fennessey?

  Did I ask you about shooting on digital? Which, like, you would think, I don't know what your feelings are about film versus digital, if you could have shot on film, but it had this surprising effect on me that, watching it for a second time, because digital kind of draws out a lot of detail.

• 1:49:19Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:19Sean Fennessey?

  And this is a film about, like, a different time, like, a lack of, like, the changing modernity, right, that this character is walking through. And you would think that it would be like a contrast to some of the ideas in this, you know, portrayal of natural beauty that the film is after. And yet, like, I find it to be really effective in this particular case. And I'm curious just to hear your thoughts about shooting in that way, the challenges of it, what are the upsides of it?

• 1:49:47Speaker 05

  I think we wouldn't, we explored shooting on film, and that was something that I, like, Adolfo and I, my cinematographer, Adolfo Veloso, we had talked about doing. The reality is, like, we couldn't have done the film on film, the way that we did it. And part of that was, we shot the film in 29 days. And so we're moving very quickly, we're using available light wherever we can. All of the fire scenes that are lit by fires are lit by fires, you know, and are lit by candles and lanterns. And so, in that environment, like, we couldn't, if we had more time or more money, we could have shot it on film and had lighting packages and things like that,

• 1:50:32Speaker 05

  or more time to do lighting setups. But as it was, like, we needed to move quickly, and we needed to shoot in a lot of really low-light environments, and digital just made the most sense for that.

• 1:50:47Speaker 05

  And yet, like, uh, we, I don't know, you don't want it to look digital, you know? You don't want it to, you want it to look, ha- have this like special look to it. And Adolfo's brilliant in how he shoots it to get that. And then also the colors that we work with. Sergio Pascualano is, is amazing at like, coming up with a look that feels softer than, than, than the hard edges of digital. But really like as, as quickly as we were moving and like, you know, following around Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones with a bunch of chickens at sunset. Like you can't, it's tough to do that with, with film cameras. You can, but you just need more time than we had.

• 1:51:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's, I'm, I'm sure it's helped by the fact that you're not just sitting in modern rooms with black walls. Like you are in an incredible location capturing this, the world as it is.

• 1:51:36Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, totally. And the detail, there is something very beautiful because Netflix was kind enough to, to do a 35 millimeter print of the film. And it's really beautiful and I'm, I'm really proud of it and I'm, I'm excited for people to see it on that. And yet, like, just because the nature of the medium, there's some, there is some detail, there's some really like special detail to the, to the spaces that, that is lost. In that, in that exhibition format.

• 1:52:00Sean Fennessey?

  We have long running dialogues on this show about the use of narration in films.

• 1:52:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:06Sean Fennessey?

  And it can be a crutch, it can be a.

• 1:52:09Speaker 05

  It's a very bad way to do it.

• 1:52:10Sean Fennessey?

  There's a very bad way to do it. And it can be a way to deliver information that was not originally part of the intention of the story.

• 1:52:18Sean Fennessey?

  This is a, a, the narration in this film to me makes it very unusual because it does make it very literate and almost like literature. And I don't feel the structure of a traditional three act movie.

• 1:52:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:52:31Sean Fennessey?

  Because of the narration, but I, I was curious to hear you talk about writing it and kind of when to include it. The decision to use Will Patton, which is so inspired and he's amazing.

• 1:52:40Speaker 05

  He's incredible.

• 1:52:40Sean Fennessey?

  Keeps you like very emotionally tied to the work.

• 1:52:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:52:44Sean Fennessey?

  But can you just talk about why you included it in the way that you did?

• 1:52:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, it was a few things that came from just the story itself. One was you've got this character in Robert Gurneer, who Joel Edgerton plays, who is a man of few words. And I wanted to portray this character as he is in the book, but also like thinking about like my dad and my grandfathers and, and, and men like that. Who had very deep feelings and deep thoughts, but didn't always have the vocabulary to say it, you know? And so that was one aspect of just having this character who you want to portray to an audience that there's a very deep undercurrent running through there and he's trying to figure out the world around him and yet doesn't have the words to say, hey, I'm dealing with trauma and loss.

• 1:53:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:53:32Speaker 05

  As soon as he breaks the character, as soon as he starts doing that. So that was one aspect. The other aspect was thinking about what was special about the novella and trying to bring that across. And part of the thing was just Dennis Johnson's voice and his, he's got these like clever turns of phrase and this subtle kind of irony that he puts in at times that just makes the story come alive, even though it's so spare in terms of the, in terms of the fiction. It's so deep and that's part of it is because of his voice and just trying to pull that across in there. And then like, you know, you don't want to do narration badly and be like, and he was sad that day.

• 1:54:11Sean Fennessey?

  Right, right.

• 1:54:12Speaker 05

  And I thought about like the narrators from like Jules and Jim and E2 Mamatambi N, who are just like characters in their own right. And wanted this character to feel like if you, like we're in some bar in a logging town late at night and some guy sits down next to you and is like, let me tell you about Robert Grenier after he's had a few beers. Wanted it to feel like that, you know? And that he can take a side, so he can take these like tangents and talk about a comet for some reason. You're like, wait, what does that have to do with what we're talking about?

• 1:54:39Sean Fennessey?

  I love that.

• 1:54:40Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, let's get back on track.

• 1:54:42Sean Fennessey?

  That's great. I mean, he really does feel like he is someone you know, but just met and has a lot of things to share, which is a nice way to feel about the narrator, instead of it being, if it was in Joel's voice and it was first person, you'd be like, exactly.

• 1:54:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. If he's like, I was, you know, three years old when this happened and then it's all of a sudden, we've, we've felt it before. And I think that like, taking that approach to every, every part of it, the structure, the way you set up shots, the way that like, I don't know, any scene between two characters go. And just try not to do the thing that's, that's expected with it. And, you know, I think that, that like applies to the whole process.

• 1:55:24Sean Fennessey?

  So I have a confession. I, I have always been a little bit immune to Joel Edgerton as a performer.

• 1:55:30Speaker 05

  How?

• 1:55:31Sean Fennessey?

  Many people say that. It's, I'm on like the outside on that one. This is the, probably the first movie that I have felt emotionally connected to him.

• 1:55:41Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 1:55:41Sean Fennessey?

  So I'm curious.

• 1:55:44Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not curious about why I feel that way, but I'm curious why you put him, chose, chose him to be Robert in this film.

• 1:55:50Speaker 05

  I, I felt respectfully the opposite of that. And I, I found him to be like, with loving especially, but with several of his roles. Just found him so like fascinating as an actor. And, and again, felt like there was so much depth there that maybe like we hadn't seen all of it.

• 1:56:17Speaker 05

  And, and then just like this very rare, he's a very rare actor who feels like he could be from any time period. And I always love that when it like, you could put Joel in the 30s, you could put Joel in the 60s and the 70s. You can put him today and he fits right in wherever like

• 1:56:33Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 1:56:34Speaker 05

  Whatever era of film, you know, he could be right there alongside Jimmy Cagney and you'd be like, yeah, that fits. And, uh, and there's something just very kind of timeless and beautiful about him. And having somebody who can like, you believe him as a logger chopping down trees, but then you also believe him as like a sweet family man. You know, hanging out with the kid and, and, and holding the baby, trying to burp the baby. Like, that's a very rare gift. And then again, like not, you know, I could, I could spend the rest of the thing talking about how great Joel is, but like also having somebody who can do a lot with a little. You know, and doesn't need to be busy as an actor and doesn't need to like say a lot, but can get so much across with his eyes.

• 1:57:19Speaker 05

  And, and, and, and with a look, that's a very rare gift.

• 1:57:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:57:24Speaker 05

  Slash talent.

• 1:57:25Sean Fennessey?

  You've convinced me.

• 1:57:27Sean Fennessey?

  I wanted to ask you about the phrase Malickian, cause you, you have this like great compliment and great burden of being compared to Terrence Malick. Because of this movie, because I think in part because of what the movie is looking to explore.

• 1:57:41Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 1:57:41Sean Fennessey?

  How some of the visual representation. You live in Texas.

• 1:57:45Speaker 05

  I live in Texas.

• 1:57:46Sean Fennessey?

  Terrence Malick.

• 1:57:46Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 1:57:47Sean Fennessey?

  How do you feel about that? How do you feel about that comparison?

• 1:57:54Speaker 05

  I mean, he's one of the greatest filmmakers to have ever, you know, lived. And it's very like, I, it's hard not to, I think, be a filmmaker trying to do something poetic, especially with nature. Whether you're making films or you're making Tide commercials, it's hard not to be influenced by what he's done. He changed the language of cinema. He created a new form, like one of those rare filmmakers that, that, that turned the medium in a new direction, you know?

• 1:58:30Speaker 05

  There's not many of them. And, uh,

• 1:58:36Speaker 05

  so yeah, I'm, I'm a big fan, trying to do my own thing, but, but it, I don't know. If I'm mentioned in the same sentence as him, it's, I'm very honored.

• 1:58:48Sean Fennessey?

  It's a good answer. I really like the choice of actors in small parts in this movie. I feel like you have like an incredible eye for one scene heroes. You know, Clifton, obviously you worked with in the past, but seeing, you know, Paul Schneider and John Deal, I love John Deal. Uh, obviously William H. Macy is getting a lot of love for his work in this movie. There's many others. Uh, how do you cast? I talked with Greg, I think, a bit about this too, because things saying it's such an extraordinary act of casting, but how do you, how do you think about casting?

• 1:59:19Speaker 05

  I mean, I was lucky to like make some mistakes on short films casting, where you get too caught up in like, the look of a character that you have in your head, or an age of a character, or something like that. And, and then you cast incorrectly. But like, I think just thinking about like, what is the spirit of this character? And who can pull that across? And then, and then looking for that. And, and letting go of like, what, how the character was written on, on the surface, you know?

• 1:59:54Speaker 05

  And I don't know, just thinking like this was such a joy like it's the it's what every filmmaker kind of dreams of to be able to have like Paul Schneider come in for a day and just be able to play with him or John Deal come in for a few days and and deliver some heartbreaking performance, you know, like it's a it's a dream come true. But then also, all the people who have, you know, some of them have never acted and and turned beautiful things, beautiful performances in the film. And it's just trying to treat everybody, trying to think about what's what what you need to get across with the character, and then finding the right person that you want to watch in an audition tape, or you want to sit across from if you

• 2:00:36Speaker 05

  meet them at a at a audition room or in a coffee shop, that you want to just like hear whatever they're gonna say next, whatever it is. And then and then figure out a way to tailor the moment and the way you shoot the moment to just bring out the best in them. And Nathaniel Arcand is another, he plays Ignatius Jack, he's another example of that, where he's just like a really special person that you just want to like, put him on screen, you know. And if you want to hang out with that person and talk to them, chances are like, you know, the audience is gonna feel that way as well.

• 2:01:09Sean Fennessey?

  It's interesting. I always think of that as like a way to understand what a filmmaker is interested in is who they pick to be in their movie. You know, obviously you're working with other people, but it's like indicative of of an energy that is trying to be communicated by the energy of the actor. Like when you put John Deal in your movie, you're like saying something, because he's an interesting kind of actor, where he can be very sinister.

• 2:01:28Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:01:29Sean Fennessey?

  And he can be very warm.

• 2:01:30Speaker 05

  Yeah. And he's a sweetheart of a man. But yeah, growing up, watching the stuff he did with Michael Mann and and Stargate and all of that, and he's like, can be a scary dude.

• 2:01:40Sean Fennessey?

  For sure.

• 2:01:41Speaker 05

  But then also like, but seeing him trying to tie his shoes is like one of the most heartbreaking things.

• 2:01:45Sean Fennessey?

  I'm curious what your experience with Sing Sing taught you about this larger apparatus? Because that's a movie that is somewhat similar to this one insofar as like, It played at a festival. It was acquired. It had a long run up to its release. You're in the awards conversation. That's a complicated thing to be plunged into over a long period of time. Like, what is that? I don't know. What did you learn from it? What does that mentality teach you about how to be a successful filmmaker now? Setting aside what happens when you're on set or cutting the movie.

• 2:02:15Speaker 05

  From the, from the production standpoint or from the release standpoint?

• 2:02:18Sean Fennessey?

  Just the, just this being a vocation for you. This being something that you do for, for a living.

• 2:02:23Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Only very recently for a living.

• 2:02:28Speaker 05

  In terms of like being able to make it work. I think actually Jockey was the big one where I remember we had, before we got into Sundance with Jockey, we'd gotten rejected from several festivals. And, and Greg and I had, like, we had a little money left over in the budget and we were putting together a plan for like self-distribution and hoping we would get a festival release and all of that. And I remember making that, making a decision there where I was just like, this is what I want to do as a trade and, and as an, as a, as an art form. And it's probably never gonna work out in terms of making a lot of money at it. I was doing a lot of stuff like editing insurance videos on the side and things like that.

• 2:03:12Speaker 05

  And, and doing some script work with Greg that we could get paid for. And I was like, you know, I'll like maybe work at the post office or, or work a contracting job. And then, and then, you know, every few years, get a couple hundred thousand dollars and make a little movie and, and that's fine. That's great. Like, and that's where Jockey, like, that, that, that happened before anything happened with Sundance and, and all of that.

• 2:03:37Speaker 05

  And then it was also interesting to watch with Sing Sing, it was interesting to watch that process because that was an eight-year process. And Greg knew immediately after Transpacos, very quickly after, that he wanted to do that movie and found that subject matter. And then there were a lot of reasons, I think in the, in the universe, that that got pushed back and, and it was better that, that he made it when he made it. And that it took the time that it did. But it was interesting to watch, like, that was a movie that, like, a lot of the industry told Greg not to do that movie. You know? They were like, no, no, no. You did a thriller with Transpac. Like, do another thriller like that. And.

• 2:04:18Speaker 05

  And that was an interesting thing to see that like when it finally came back around and he made the the movie that he wanted to make initially and followed his gut and and um and we put that movie out like the response that it got and how special it was and all that that was that was a really interesting lesson. You don't always know how the outcome is going to be but but but just to like make what you want to make and what you feel drawn to make and don't try and reverse engineer some version of success financially or critically or anything like that.

• 2:04:49Sean Fennessey?

  Requires patience. It's funny like I think about from my very small little experience with Jockey, I had almost the opposite viewpoint where I was like this movie is not getting enough attention because it's covid and you know like I watched it in virtual Sundance and it's a very good film and it's a film that like in even in 2014 it would have been easier to exhibit that movie and draw an audience and things have changed a lot in independent film over this, you know, since you guys have been at this.

• 2:05:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:05:15Sean Fennessey?

  What how do you feel about the state of it? What do you make of it? Your film is obviously premiering on the largest streaming platform in the universe, which is very exciting, but also different than I imagine how you were thinking about it when you were developing Jockey, for example.

• 2:05:30Speaker 05

  I don't know. It's one of those things of like with this one in particular, it's I'm I'm in a very lucky position where I get to have my cake and eat it too where where I am they're giving the film a robust theatrical release and and doing a 35 millimeter print of it and and Netflix is taking very good care on that side on the theatrical side and going to let it run as long as people are going to the theaters to see it, you know. And then but then also it's going to go out on the platform and I have family members who, you know, live out in the country who've like never seen my films, you know, because they don't have a theater near them or something like that. But they have Netflix and and thinking about like Adolfo's

• 2:06:12Speaker 05

  family in Brazil is going to be able to watch this the same day as my family in in, you know, North Florida is going to be able to watch it like I'm excited about that. That's a beautiful thing. The landscape overall, especially as an independent filmmaker, it's like one of those things where it's a weird time and I think like there's.

• 2:06:32Speaker 05

  It's a very strange time to think about bringing films out. And it's odd because like there's more ways to get your film out than ever to people. And there's no lack of desire, there's no lack of audience out there. There's no lack of desire of people to watch them. And yet, there's fewer and fewer distributors. And I think the whole industry is just trying to figure out what's what. You know, what's up from down in terms of how to put a movie out. But at the same time, like, I don't know. As independent filmmakers, we're kind of like alley cats anyways. Where you're just like, you just make do with whatever you got at the time. And like, don't think too much about it. And like, I don't know, just try and make something good and hope that people see it.

• 2:07:13Sean Fennessey?

  It's funny though, because you were saying that you didn't really see this as an occupation until recently. But now you're probably in this situation where you'll get a script sent to you and it'll be a studio movie. And you'll get to say, yeah, I do want to make a movie that costs $75 million and does X, Y. Like, do you feel yourself transitioning into that phase? Or do you think you guys will keep working in the way that you have been?

• 2:07:37Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 2:07:39Sean Fennessey?

  When does your Marvel movie start?

• 2:07:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm trying to think if I can break the news now or not. Just kidding. I don't know that anybody would look at Train Dreams and be like, you know what? We need him to do is the new Ant-Man.

• 2:07:50Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know, man. Somebody looked at Nomadland and they did, you know? Like, it happens. It definitely happens.

• 2:07:57Speaker 05

  That's true. I, I don't know. I really like, it'd be nice to have a little more money, but at the same time, than we did on Train Dreams. But at the same time, it's a nice space to be. And I think looking at like, looking at my, the filmmakers who I would like, love to have a career like, or some sort of like body of work, like, like how the Coen Brothers came up, you know? Or like,

• 2:08:29Speaker 05

  Or Malik as well, like in terms of outside of like a 20 year gap. But like, taking, taking like stair steps up and, and kind of staying in your lane. And, and figuring out like what your voice is or how Fellini came up, you know, like a step at a time. I think is just like, it's typically more interesting that way. And that's not to say it's, it's not to make big jumps. A lot of filmmakers do it and do, and do great at it.

• 2:09:00Speaker 05

  But I'm kind of a slow learner myself.

• 2:09:03Sean Fennessey?

  So Ant-Man 4?

• 2:09:04Speaker 05

  Yes. Is that what we're on?

• 2:09:06Sean Fennessey?

  I think so. I think it's four. Yeah. Good luck.

• 2:09:08Speaker 05

  Thanks.

• 2:09:10Sean Fennessey?

  We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Are you seeing much as you are exhibiting the movie around the world?

• 2:09:18Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, because like, I'm like on the road, like exhibiting this movie and then I've got a four month old at home.

• 2:09:25Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, congrats. That's insane timing.

• 2:09:28Speaker 05

  And so the last great one I watched was How Green Is My Valley with John.

• 2:09:32Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:09:33Speaker 05

  How Green Was My Valley.

• 2:09:34Sean Fennessey?

  Definitely a movie with some relationship to your film.

• 2:09:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:09:37Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of similar themes.

• 2:09:39Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And.

• 2:09:42Sean Fennessey?

  It's a very good film. It's much maligned historically because it beats Citizen Kane.

• 2:09:45Speaker 05

  I know. I didn't realize that. But it's a beautiful film.

• 2:09:48Sean Fennessey?

  Gorgeous. I think one of Ford's best movies.

• 2:09:50Speaker 05

  I agree. And, and just so, I found myself like the last half, just crying through the last half.

• 2:09:57Speaker 05

  It's hard when you have years like that where we have to have a best and you've got like Susan Cain in that movie. It's like, what do you do? But I think in terms of new releases, like, I mean, just like every, just jumping in the choir here of one battle after another.

• 2:10:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. You're like the ninth person to say it on the show.

• 2:10:13Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 2:10:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. It's pretty cool though. What did you like about One Battle?

• 2:10:17Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm inclined to like anything that PTA does. And, and so I enjoyed it, but just like, I don't know, the, the freshness of it. I could like, Benicio Toro's character, I could, I need a whole movie of him. Like, it was just, I loved it.

• 2:10:33Sean Fennessey?

  Clint, your film is beautiful. Congratulations. Thanks for being here.

• 2:10:36Speaker 05

  Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. This was really fun.

• 2:10:40Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you to Clint Bentley. Thanks to Juliette Littman. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Next week, Amanda and I will talk about sentimental value and regretting you and take stock of the Best Picture race. We'll see you then.

• 2:11:09Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you.