Khan Academy: Sal Khan

In 2009, Sal Khan walked away from a high-paying job to start a business that had no way of making money. His idea to launch a non-profit teaching platform was ignited five years earlier, when he was helping his young cousins do math homework over the computer. They loved his clear explanations and soon he was posting free tutorials on Youtube, where they started to attract the attention of thousands of users around the world. Sal realized he could help democratize learning by building a free platform to teach math, science, and the humanities. Today, Khan Academy offers hundreds of free recorded tutorials in dozens of languages. During the pandemic, its popularity has surged to 30 million users a month. Order the How I Built This book at: https://smarturl.it/HowIBuiltThisSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

  But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes

• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

• 2:14Guy Raz?

  So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.

• 2:54Guy Raz?

  Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.

• 3:36Guy Raz?

  The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 4:21Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 5:06Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey, it's Guy here. Have you ever thought about starting a business? And if so, what would it be? How do you come up with an idea? How do you find the money to start? How do you get the word out about your product or service? What do you do if your idea isn't working? And how do you pivot? Well, to answer those questions, I've written a book. It's called What Else? How I Built This. And it's full of inspiring stories

• 5:50Guy Raz?

  from some of the greatest entrepreneurs in the world who've been through the trenches, made big mistakes, and lived to tell the tale. If you're looking to start something or just want to be inspired by those who've built incredible things, pick up How I Built This now, wherever you buy your books or by visiting guyraz.com.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  It was incredibly stressful. And we were digging into our savings about $5,000 or $6,000 a month. And, you know, but my male ego was trying to shelter my family from it. So I was putting on a strong face to my friends and family. And, you know, you can imagine my mother, who, you know, when I told her I'd quit my job, I, you know, I started, her first word was, "What?"

• 6:41Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 6:52Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how a random decision to help a cousin with her math homework led Sal Khan to build Khan Academy, a free online teaching platform with nearly 30 million users a month.

• 7:17Guy Raz?

  So, most of the products and services we've talked about on the show have been innovative or disruptive in some way. But some of them, and you've heard me say this before, have fundamentally changed the way we live. I mean, Lyft, Airbnb, Starbucks, Shopify, Wayfair. These brands have transformed the way that many of us shop and travel and work. But every now and then, a founder comes along that seems to want to do something even more ambitious, even more transformative. Like, remember Pat Brown? He founded Impossible Foods to create meat out of plants.

• 7:57Guy Raz?

  Meat so meat-like that even the most diehard carnivores would want to eat it. Pat wants to put a stop to meat production, period, because of the damage it's doing to the planet. And essentially, and I don't think I'm overstating this, he set out from day one to change the world. But still, Pat Brown stands to make a lot of money from ...his company. Same with most of the founders who've been on this show. And I don't think any of them are motivated primarily to make money, but it is part of the story. They make a product or offer a service, sell it to you and me, and they also get rich. Perfectly fine. But what about someone who makes a product or offers

• 8:41Guy Raz?

  a service that is equally transformational, maybe even more so, but makes it 100% free? To do that, you have to make personal sacrifices, starting by earning a lot less money, which is just part of what makes Sal Khan so incredibly remarkable. Over the past 12 years, he's built Khan Academy into a powerhouse, a massive online learning platform that offers free tutorials to anyone, anywhere. And from the very beginning, Sal decided his academy would be a nonprofit, that it should never be tempted to compromise on its values. But

• 9:23Guy Raz?

  before he launched Khan Academy, Sal didn't anticipate any of this. He was just trying to help a younger cousin with her sixth grade math lessons. At the time, he was working for a hedge fund. But from those early days of doing one-on-one tutorials, Sal gradually built a platform that offers hundreds of classes in dozens of languages. Nearly 30 million people use Khan Academy every month to learn math, science, the arts, even SAT prep, all for free. And Khan Academy has inspired the launch of many other online learning platforms, but many of them are for-profit operations that charge money.

• 10:06Guy Raz?

  But we'll get to all of that in a moment. First, let's back up just a little bit. Sal Khan grew up in Metairie, Louisiana. His mom was from India and his dad was from Bangladesh. And the marriage ended when Sal was pretty young.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  My parents, you know, had issues. And so they separated when I was probably about 18 months old, two years old. And then I had really never, you know, seen my father again. I saw him once for an evening when I was 13, and then he passed away the next year. So it was really my mother who raised us as a single mother.

• 10:44Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 10:46Guy Raz?

  Was there a community of of South Asian families in in Metairie when you were growing up?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, you know, when my parents separated, we actually lived with my young uncles at the time. They were in their twenties. And so they all were kind of like father figures and almost like older siblings to me as well. And in a lot of ways, they were not your stereotypical, you know, just come to the US, study, you know, get a job, save money, kind of prudent immigrant story. They were they were much more embracing of New Orleans culture. And I would say they're the most New Orleanian South Asians you will ever find in your life. I had a very colorful childhood, you know, late night parties, people singing and dancing. You know, for for me, it

• 11:34Speaker 01

  felt like a, I remember my third birthday that my uncles got a belly dancer. I still remember Habiba, you know. So it was definitely a different type of childhood, but it was in some ways a really rich one.

• 11:45Guy Raz?

  So what did your mom do for a living?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  The first job that I remember her having, she she was the the person who takes the change out of the vending machine at the at the local hospital, actually, the hospital where I was born. And she took me to work a couple of times because she didn't have childcare. And I thought at the time, I remember, you know, watching her do that, and think it was like the coolest job on earth, because you have this key that you can open up the vending machine and like quarters just pour out of it. So she did that for a little bit. And then essentially, was a cashier at a series of convenience stores, just kind of doing, you know, one minimum wage job after another. And then I was in high school. She had remarried. Her and my stepdad at the time were able to kind of cobble together to get a small convenience store in Metairie.

• 12:34Guy Raz?

  In your book, you write, Louisiana was as close to South Asia as the United States could get. It had spicy food, humidity, giant cockroaches, and a corrupt government. Which is both funny, but somewhat true, I guess, right? I mean, you grew up at a time when like David Duke was the representative in the state legislature.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, the part of Metairie where we had our store, it was called Seminole Convenience Store on Seminole Avenue, and it's called our Metairie called Bucktown. That was kind of the heart of David Duke's base, so to speak. I remember, you know, right outside of our store, across the street, was the largest David Duke for president sign I've ever seen. And so it was a, you know, the folks who lived in the neighborhood, who were frankly, you know, super David Duke supporters, you know, in some ways, it was lucky. This was pre 9/11. They didn't really know what to make of my family at the time. You know, we've had a few conversations, I remember, with people at the store where they openly told us that they were trying to decide whether we were white or the N-word. You know, we were confusing them.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  But, you know, growing up, I was, you know, the only brown kid in the classroom. But I never felt in school at all like folks were in any way biased or racist against me. If anything, I have to give the school system, the Jefferson Parish school system, a lot of credit. You know, I think a lot of what I am today is because they gave me opportunities. There were teachers that believed in me. I had a really good friend circle. So I have no, you know, I don't feel like it was a tough childhood.

• 14:16Guy Raz?

  So was your mom, did she have very strict expectations for you? I mean, she had come from India to the United States, made a lot of sacrifices. Did she sort of, you know, would she say, you have to be an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer? Like, was there any kind of talk like that at home when you were a kid?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  You know, my mother definitely did instill some really strong values, you know, just seeing her operate. My mom is a very courageous person. And, you know, we were the only family that, that in our friend circle where, you know, we were kind of not well off, or at least not middle class. But I think that was helpful, too, because the family friends we had, many of them were the stereotypical doctors and engineers. And, you know, you obviously can see where you live, and you see where those kids live, and you can see kind of our financial insecurity. I still remember, I must have been eight or nine years old at, at Kmart, and I was being a brat. I really wanted to be, you know, buy this Hot Wheel set. And I was throwing a tantrum in the Kmart. And I remember that

• 15:20Speaker 01

  was the first time that my mom kind of just, kind of broke down a little bit, says, don't you realize we have no money? And, you know, one of my uncles, they had a, they had a food store in a really rough neighborhood in New Orleans. He got shot. You know, people, you know, we thought he was gonna die. I think I was about eight years old at the time. So I was just like, I don't, I don't want that life. I'd rather have the life of, of my other South Asian friends who are, whose parents are, you know, who are professionals.

• 15:51Guy Raz?

  Sal, I'm trying to figure out where your framing comes from. The way you frame your childhood is pretty remarkable, because I think you can also, I mean, I mean, somebody with the same, same experience could say, actually, it was really hard. You know, we were financially insecure. My uncles had a convenience store. My mom did. It was not safe. There were robberies. We were, you know, the only brown-skinned people in our neighborhood. There was racism. I mean, the way you frame your childhood is totally different from the way I think a lot of people would frame it. And I wonder, would you attribute that to? I mean, where does that come from?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I genuinely think it was a it was a rich and colorful childhood and there was definitely hard aspects of it, but I think everyone has their their own flavor of hardships. And for the most part, I think whatever hardships or constraints we had helped grow me and it gives you a perspective on life. And I wouldn't describe my childhood as idyllic by any stretch of the imagination, but I would I would I would describe it as colorful and rich and it definitely I had experiences that, you know, a lot of kids didn't have, which I think were actually in hindsight, quite incredible.

• 17:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I read that when you were in high school, you were in a heavy metal band or death metal band, or I don't know which one, which one was it? Is that true?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I was the lead singer, but you know, singing is is being very generous to what I was doing. It was more of yelling or growling.

• 17:28Guy Raz?

  You were the lead growler of the death metal band?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I was the lead growler of a death metal band.

• 17:32Guy Raz?

  What was the band called?

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Original name, and I cringe when I say these things now, it was Malignancy. But then we had to change our name because there was a band in Florida called Malignancy. And so anyway, you know, it was me and and three other guys.

• 17:51Guy Raz?

  All right. So you were in this band and but it sounds like school was pretty easy for you that you were doing pretty well.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was the kid that kind of did just whatever I needed to do to to get a decent grade. And it was about ninth or 10th grade that I started getting really serious about studies. And I remember in 10th grade, I kind of lived lived this double life where I was on kind of the academic teams and Quiz Bowl and Science Olympiad. And I was chosen to be on representing Louisiana at National Academic Games. And it was the same weekend as our first big gig as a death metal band. And so I had this kind of path. I had this choice that I had to pick.

• 18:31Guy Raz?

  This was this was Malignancy's first main?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had an opportunity to open up for paralysis, which is a big deal.

• 18:38Guy Raz?

  And Malignancy opens for paralysis.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's definitely and you know, some of my the people who were in my band, they were starting to get into trouble. Some of them started. Doing some drugs, you know, getting, getting a little bit into, I would call a scary crowd. And that frankly, you know, I had my, I had my Quiz Bowl and academic games friends. And then, and then I had, I had some of my, my other friends who were, you know, their, their life was getting really tough and they were starting to, to, I would say, get into trouble. And that, that scared me.

• 19:11Guy Raz?

  Huh. So when it came time to apply to college, were you encouraged to aim pretty high, like, like to a prestigious school?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I give a lot of credit to my sister, you know, she was always a little ahead of me. And, you know, I looked at the schools that she was applying for when she was graduating from high school. I was in middle school or, or freshman at the time. And she was applying to places like Brown University. And I was like, Farah, have you looked at the tuition at Brown University? There's no way we're going to be able to afford that. And she's like, no, there's something called financial aid and you can get loans and, and all of this. And she ended up going to Brown and that completely opened up my mind of what's possible. And to give my mom fair credit, she definitely, you know, I think, South Asian culture, Indian culture, whatever you want to call it, you know, there is this very, you could call it positive or negative peer pressure of like, oh, so what are your kids doing? So and so's kids going to med school. What, you know, someone's kid got a, has

• 20:01Speaker 01

  a, has a, has a perfect GPA, is valedictorian, is your kid only this alluditorian. So she kind of would often tell us stuff like, you know, you should be valedictorian, just like Thuheen. Thuheen was this kid we knew who was 10 years older, who had, I think by the time he was 18, he had a PhD from Tulane. So, you know, it's, I think he now has two PhDs and an MB. So, so I remember there's a lot, I heard a lot about Thuheen.

• 20:22Guy Raz?

  So I guess your mom was pretty happy because you wound up going to MIT. And, and when you got there, was it just so exciting?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  It was for me. You know, when, when I got there, I was, it, it did feel like heaven on so many levels for me. You know, it was the first environment that I had been in that really are like, you know, you shouldn't be ashamed if you're getting excited in an organic chemistry class. I still remember one of my friends, Dorender, who I actually met in the organic chemistry class. Like, I literally saw him getting excited about what was being talked about. He was having epiphanies as, as we were talking about like the aldol reaction. And it's the closest thing to Hogwarts in the real world where, you know, science is magic and you can walk down, you know, the main hallway in MIT is called the infinite corridor and you're just seeing, you know, people with like, that some of them

• 21:14Speaker 01

  are a little bit unusual in their affect and all this, but they all have these magical superpowers and there's professors who are inventing things and building things. And this is right in the late 90s where the internet and computer science was, was starting to become very relevant to broader, to society as a whole. So it's, it's, MIT was and I think continues to be an incredibly exciting place.

• 21:36Guy Raz?

  You graduated MIT with a master's degree. You like doubled, tripled up on classes and I guess just were insanely productive and, and got a degree in computer science. What did you do after you graduated?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Well, I remember my senior year, this was about November of my senior year, I talked to a friend who was a year older and he had just gotten a job at Oracle and I, I was kind of nosy. I was like, well, how much are they paying you? And, and he said a hundred thousand dollars. And for me at the time, I was like, what?

• 22:10Guy Raz?

  Your mind was blown.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  My mind was blown. My mom was making sixteen thousand dollars a year. I had about twenty five thousand dollars in debt, which at the time felt like all the money in the world. So I was getting stressed about it. And I was, and I literally, I remember thinking like, it would be irresponsible for me not to try to make that type of money, pay off my debt, help out my family and just get a little bit more financial security. So I remember that's when I went to my advisor and saying, I think I need to finish the masters this year. And they all thought I was a little bit crazy, but it, it happened and I actually ended up working at Oracle. That's my first job.

• 22:44Guy Raz?

  Wow. So you, you moved to Silicon Valley to work, to California, to, to, to work for Oracle, I guess.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, moved out to the Bay Area and you get to, you know, about a year into my tenure there, it's 1999 now, we're at the peak of the dot com bubble. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who was on an H1B visa from India and, and he said, Sal, why are you here? I was like, well, you know, it pays really good. He's like, I'm here because I have to get my, I have to get my immigration, but like you're a citizen. Like if I were you, I'd be do, I'd be starting a company right now. This is the late 90s. And so, yeah, I ended up joining a startup. It was a startup to, it was going to democratize venture capitals called MeVC where the, the idea was, you know, you had all these IPOs that were popping. So a lot of people were trying to get into the venture capital market, but it obviously

• 23:38Speaker 01

  was hard for people to get into it. And so these two bankers from Robertson Stevens at the time, they had come up with a structure that could be a publicly traded venture capital fund. And, and so that was the startup and it was going to have a tech aspect of it where people could see the investments, et cetera, et cetera. So that was what I was supposed to build and did build.

• 23:55Guy Raz?

  Huh. It's a great idea, but, but it still hasn't been democratized to this day. What happened to the startup?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  You know, while the NASDAQ was roaring, was doing quite well. It, it grew to 40 employees. It raised its first fund, which I think was a several hundred million dollars. But then, you know, I still remember that day and I believe it was, you know, spring of 2000 when the NASDAQ collapsed. And, you know, and with that, I saw the, the other side of the startup world where, you know, every week we'd have to lay off a few folks and it was incredibly, incredibly painful and political and stressful. And that was around the time that I was like, yeah, maybe I should take shelter someplace.

• 24:36Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  So I started looking up applications for business school.

• 24:39Guy Raz?

  So you decided to leave Silicon Valley and the startup world for at least a time being and go to business school. You went to, back to Massachusetts to Harvard Business School.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:51Guy Raz?

  And what was the, what was the idea? Was your idea like, all right, I'll do this and then I'll go back into the startup world or I'll go into finance and get a stable job and, you know, make a stable, good income. Like, did you have a sense of what you wanted to do?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  I mean, if I'm really honest, I was I was lonely. I was out in Silicon Valley. I mean, the male female ratio in Silicon Valley back then was horrendous. I also felt traumatized to a large degree by my startup experience because it was it was so painful and political. And and and I actually told myself that I didn't I didn't have the fortitude to be an entrepreneur. That that it is, it's just, it's just so emotionally taxing. Let me go to business school and, you know, maybe broaden my resume a little bit. So people just don't perceive me as the tech guy or the the quant guy. And it was while I was in business school, I started taking finance classes and started seeing that, wow, there's a real beauty to finance.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  That it has its quantitative aspect, but it also has a huge psychological and historical aspect to it that I loved. And I remember taking a capital markets class and that was probably the the math heaviest class offered in business school. And and the professor's name is George Chaco. I remember going to him after class one day. I was like, you know, I really like this class. And he's like, yeah, you really have a knack for capital markets and things like this. I was like, well, what should I do with this? Like, what what kind of career is this for? He's like, I think you should go work at a hedge fund. And I said, wow, that sounds great. What's a hedge fund? And and he explained, you know, it's it's like a mutual fund, but there's a lot more flexibility in how you invest the money. You can get into exotic things. You can short, you can buy and sell options.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  And I talked to some friends who are either who had worked in hedge funds or who were going to work in hedge funds and said, you know, so what what's the pay like? Is it good? And they kind of looked at me like, are you crazy? It's like, it's about as good as it gets.

• 26:43Guy Raz?

  So so I guess you you decided to do exactly that, to get a job at a hedge fund. And was it easy to land one?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  No, I got, you know, you know, my application got rejected hundreds of times. My resume did not look like a hedge fund resume. I was getting people in tech who wanted me to be a product manager or something like that. But at that time, I had. There was a girl I had a crush on from MIT. She was now in med school in New York. And so I was also like, I need to work in New York. And so I was, I literally went through the directory of any hedge fund in New York. And I was, I was getting one rejection after another. And then eventually there was this guy, Dan Wool, based in, in Boston, who was apparently kind of getting his hedge fund off the ground.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And Dan, at the time, was 32 years old, I think, or 33 years old. And I interviewed with him and he hired me. And he later told me he hired me because I didn't have a background in finance. He liked that I seemed to be kind of a out of the box type of personality. And, you know, it was, it's one of these ironies that I had then fallen back into essentially a startup. Cause it was me and Dan and we were looking for office space. And, you know, making sure that the office was dog friendly. Cause he had this large dog that we had to, we had to accommodate.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, that, that was my first job in finance.

• 28:09Guy Raz?

  How'd it go? How, how did you do?

• 28:11Speaker 01

  You know, I gotta say, you know, it was, it was a fascinating job. Because what we would do is we would screen the market for things that looked just intriguing. And we would try to understand that business. And the best way to understand that business was try to get the, the management team on, on the phone to explain their business to us.

• 28:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  And, and so it was intellectually, I was like a kid in a candy shop. Because I was able to, every day, I mean, it's kind of like being a journalist. You're able to really dive deeply into these. And, and my job was actually to be kind of a hyper learner. Cause you know, the first half of the calls, I would always say like, it was a little bit of like, gee whiz. So how does this work? How do logistics work and all that? And then the second half of the call, I would, I would turn up the knob a little bit. And I was like, what, you know, what you're saying doesn't make sense. And push, and push the management teams a little bit harder.

• 28:58Guy Raz?

  And I mean, while you're doing all this, you're, you're also sort of starting what would become Khan Academy. I mean, you're working there in Boston and I guess this is around 2004. Like the story, I guess, that I've heard is that your sister's daughter has, is like having trouble with math. Is that, is that sort of the story?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  It was a cousin. It was a year, I was a year out of business school, had just gotten married to the to the umama, the person that I was trying to move to New York for. And, and the wedding was in New Jersey, which is where my wife grew up. But then, family was visiting from New Orleans and they had, they wanted to visit Boston during 4th of July. And so I was showing them around town and I just came on a conversation that my 12 year old cousin Nadia, her mother, Nazr Thanti, was telling me that she was having trouble in math. And she's like, Sal, if there's anything you can do, I know, you know, you're more knowledgeable about these types of things. And so I, I talked to Nadia and Nadia said that she was having trouble. She took a placement test at the end of sixth grade, had a lot of unit conversion in it.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  She felt that she just couldn't understand unit conversion. And so I told Nadia, I was like, I'm 100% sure you're capable of learning unit conversion. How about when you go back to New Orleans, I'm happy to tutor you remotely. And she was up for it. And so that's, that was August of 2004, when I started tutoring Nadia.

• 30:18Guy Raz?

  All right. So remotely sounds fine today, like in the era of Zoom and Slack and stuff. But how did you do that in 2004? Was it, was it over the phone?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was over the phone. And we'd use Yahoo Instant Messenger to type messages or to type questions. And Yahoo Instant Messenger at the time had this feature called Yahoo Doodle, where you could actually with your mouse scribble something and someone on the other side could see what you scribbled. And you could imagine writing math equations with a mouse was pretty painful. And so I got myself and I got Nadia a, you know, like a, I think it was $60 pen tablet so that you could write. But it was on a little, little part of your Instant Messenger window, but that's still enough that you could write things like 3X is equal to 6, you know, what does X equal? So that's, that's how we did it.

• 31:09Guy Raz?

  And this was just something you were doing at night and, and you know, kind of after work.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was doing it every day, about 30 minutes, getting on the phone. And after frankly, a few weeks, Nadia, the first few weeks was just deprogramming her own lack of self-esteem. But then, after she got through that, she started to believe that she was capable of learning. Unit conversion actually came quite easily to her. Then she got caught up with her class. She came a little ahead of her class. At that point, I became what I call a tiger cousin. I called up her school. I said, you know, I really think Nadia Raman should be able to retake that placement test from last year. They said, who are you? I said, I'm her cousin. And surprisingly, they let her retake that placement test. And the same Nadia, who was only a few months ago, put into a remedial class, was now put into an advanced math class.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  And I was hooked.

• 31:59Guy Raz?

  Wow. And what was the secret? I mean, how did you get her from a remedial class to an advanced class in a matter of months?

• 32:08Speaker 01

  I would love to believe that I'm some type of super tutor or something, but I think the reality is there's actually a lot of research to back this up. If you do have one-on-one tutoring, and that tutor is able to identify what your gaps are, and fill in those gaps, especially in subjects like mathematics, that most kids can actually, probably all kids could be accelerated dramatically. And that's all that was happening with Nadia. I mean, there was some of it was just motivational. She had almost given up on herself, so I had to just re-motivate her a little bit. And I think a little bit of the secret, you know, this might sound a little bit of like a, once again, a tiger cousin or tiger parent thing to do, but when you allow a student to get a little ahead of their class, two things happen. One, when they see it in class, they're like, oh, I've seen this before.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  So it builds a little bit of cushion. It also builds confidence. There's just, you know, once you start to realize that you can actually get a little ahead of your class, you're like, oh, maybe this is my thing. Maybe I'm a math person.

• 33:04Guy Raz?

  And I guess, like, the word gets out in the family, in Louisiana, and other relatives are like, "Hey, can you help my kid, or can you help me?" Is that sort of what happened?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, puts it exactly as you described, word spread that free tutoring was going on. Before, you know, and I was getting requests from, from, from family members all over the country. And by, by 2006, I was tutoring on a given day, anywhere between five and 15 cousins, family, friends.

• 33:38Guy Raz?

  On a given day?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  On a given day, yeah, they would all get on the speakerphone together. I would answer questions they had and, you know, I, one, one thing I saw with my cousins, the way that math is often taught and especially learned is it's like these fragmented concepts that you have to memorize formulas and patterns and things like that. And what, the thing that really served me while growing up is that if you just ponder the math a little bit, it all connects, it all makes intuitive sense. It's all just a way of thinking. And so I was really trying to do what I, what I could to, to support them all.

• 34:08Guy Raz?

  And meantime, you were still working at a hedge fund, right?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I was, and, and I have to give extra credit to Dan because in the early days when I was working for Wool Capital, Dan's startup hedge fund, it was just me and him, I had bought into the stereotype that you have to work 80 hours a week to make it in finance. So I was ready to do that. And I remember this is probably a month or two into the starting my job, Dan's like, "Why are you still here? Why aren't you going home?" I was like, "No, no, Dan, I'm, I'm ready to, you know, I'm, I'm gonna look for more investment ideas." He's like, "No, go home." I was like, "Okay." I was like, "Okay, I'll go home and I'll look for investment ideas." He's like, "No, Sal, you're not gonna help anybody by just, you know, having the appearance of motion. It's not about just churning yourself and tying yourself out because then you're just more likely to make bad decisions. Our whole goal is to avoid bad decisions.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And the best way to do that is when you're at work, you know, have your game face on, have your game energy, but to do that, you're gonna have to have other things in your life. You should read interesting books, you know, recharge. And actually, that recharging is going to keep your mind open and, and, and keep you creative and not fall into the group think that a lot of people do. And so Dan kind of forced me to have a life. And that's what gave me the space in, in my life to, to offer to Nadia, say, "Yeah, you know, after markets close, I'm, I'm actually pretty free to, to work with you."

• 35:30Guy Raz?

  So you're doing this tutoring these kids and it's over the phone. And this is like around 2006. And somebody suggests that you make videos and you put it on YouTube. Is that, did that happen around that time?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, even before the videos happened in around late 2005. You know, I have this background in software. And in the back of my mind, I have always been fascinated by can software play a role in improving human potential? And when I was in college, almost every job I did was in some way related to education or how tech and education could be useful. I remember I worked for the, some Spanish professors to help teach people Spanish. Then the, the next summer I worked on some software to, to help kids with attention deficit disorder learn math. And I created this little thing called Math Planet. So my brain was there throughout for a long time. And so when I started working with my cousins, I was like, wow, you know, it's hard for me

• 36:29Speaker 01

  to find good practice problems for them on the internet. Let me write some software for them that could generate practice problems and that then can give them hints and solutions and immediate feedback and that could give me as their tutor data on how they're performing and how long things are taking them. And I wrote it as a hobby. And that was, that was the first Khan Academy, you know, I set it up as a website.

• 36:52Guy Raz?

  And, and you just, it was not very expensive presumably? You just kind of did it yourself and offered it to, to these kids?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I remember, you know, a lot of my friends was like, well, is this a business? I was like, no, no, not a business. I'm not a startup guy. I'll never do that again. This is, this, this is my family project. That was my way of frankly, protecting it emotionally. And I was at a dinner party and my friend, his name's Zuli, Zuli Ramzan, give him full credit. He's like, well, this is cool, Sal, but how are you scaling your actual lessons? And I said, you're right, Zuli, it's hard to do with 10 cousins, what I was originally doing with just Nadia and her brothers. And he says, well, why don't you record some of your lessons as videos and upload them onto YouTube for your family? And I immediately, you know, my technologist side said, well, that's such a low tech solution. And then I, I'd vocalized him, I was like, no, that's like, YouTube's for cats playing piano. It's for dogs on skateboard.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  It it's not for learning.

• 37:45Guy Raz?

  And I went home that weekend and I I think I probably had explained least common multiple to a cousin for like the eighth time.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  And I was like, maybe Zulie's got a point. Maybe I should make a video on least common multiples for my cousins. And and then it was just a, how do I make the video? I, you know, back in 2006, cell phones weren't particularly good. I didn't have a video camera and and I, you know, you do Google search, you realize, oh, there's something called screen capture software. And so I downloaded some, you know, free screen capture software and I started just essentially recording some of my digital scribbles using my pen tablet. Yeah, but you can hear my voiceover while I'm talking.

• 38:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  And it was, they were done very extemporaneously, you know, they're from my cousins. And I started uploading them onto YouTube and telling them, watch this at your own time and pace. And then we can, we can dig deeper when we get on the phone. And wow, after about a month, I asked them for feedback and they, they famously told me they liked me better on YouTube than in person.

• 38:40Guy Raz?

  Really?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yes, they just really liked having an on demand version of their cousin that they could watch as much as they want. There was no shame in reviewing a concept that they should have learned in fourth grade. And I started to realize, you know, this, this type of thing, especially math, and I was doing math and I started doing some physics and chemistry and biology as well. It's pretty evergreen content. If, once you have a good explanation of adding fractions with unlike denominators, pretty much everyone in the world could use it and you don't really have to refresh it unless you figure out a better way of explaining adding fractions with unlike, unlike denominators.

• 39:16Guy Raz?

  I mean, I'm trying to figure out how you were thinking about this because, I mean, clearly you were motivated to help your relatives and and these kids in your extended family and and friends of friends. But I have to think that a part of you was like, maybe there's something bigger here. Or or were you just not even thinking that at all?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Oh, there was for sure something. My, my brain, it oscillates between these like mega delusional, you know, space opera, science fiction ideas and like, Sal, you're being crazy. Focus on, on what you can do in the here and now. And so, you know, the reason why I was always fascinated by software, technology and education is that it's not hard to imagine that if you, you make something that can increase human potential by 10%, 20% or 100%. And if it scales like technology can, there's no reason why it can't affect all of, all of humanity one day. And, you know, I was super inspired when I was young in seventh grade, I read, I read the foundation series, Isaac Asimov, and the protagonist is someone named

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Harry Seldon, who's kind of a new form of academic. That's a combination of mathematics, economics, history, psychology, and he's able to predict large scale historical movements. And he sees through his science that the galactic empire is about to enter into a 10,000 year dark ages. And he decides to do something about it. He can't stop it from happening, but he can shorten it to a thousand years. And the way he does that is by taking the galaxy's knowledge and putting it into a foundation at the periphery of the galaxy. And I remember when I was seventh grade and I read that, I thought two things. One, why don't more people think on those scales? Like that, it feels so inspiring and epic

• 41:03Speaker 01

  to think on that scale well beyond ourselves, you know? And when I went to the hedge fund world, I realized most people don't even think beyond the next earnings period, much less, much less generational or over centuries or over thousands of years. And then the other aha from that book in seventh grade was like, yeah, Harry Seldon's right. Like the way to preserve civilization is really through knowledge. It like, that is what defines a civilization. That is what defines human potential. And so, you know, while I was working on this in 2006 and now 2007, and I started getting thank you letters from folks around the world, you know, people who are soldiers in Iraq saying, I'm, I'm using your content while I'm, while I'm in Iraq to, to prepare for college so I can go back to college. People who dropped out of high school.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I was like, maybe, maybe this project could be like the foundation. It could be this thing that keeps us from going into dark ages or maybe entering into a new age. Who knows?

• 41:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm wondering. When you started putting these videos out on YouTube, on the internet, would you like wake up and see like 200 views and then 600 views the next day? Like,

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's pretty accurate. That's about what I,

• 42:08Guy Raz?

  Were you surprised? Were you like, what is going on? Who's, who's watching this?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  I, I was hoping that something like that would happen. I mean, you know, when, when I put it on YouTube and it asked whether I want to make it public. I was like, yeah, I guess it would be pretty cool if other people could, could, could benefit from this. Uh, but then when you start getting, you know, not just the views, but for, I would say the comments especially, you know, people like opening up on the YouTube message boards or opening up on, you know, they'll, they can do the private messaging on, on YouTube and they'll tell you their life story and how that one video unlocked their perspective. I'm like, oh my God, this is, this is a, for that person, that video was a big deal. And I didn't really have to do anything extra for that person. Uh, it's really inspiring and, and I just got more and more hooked on it.

• 42:50Guy Raz?

  Huh. Meanwhile, as you mentioned, I mean, you, you're still with Dan at this point at the hedge fund. And then I guess at some point he decides to move the fund to California, right?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. We had moved out to Silicon Valley. Dan's wife had become a professor at Stanford, which is why we had moved out here. And, uh, so my wife was able to finish her fourth year at med school, doing a bunch of rotations out here in, in the Bay area. So we, you know, and now that we were on the West Coast, I was working from 5:00 AM till about two in the afternoon. So before our first child was born, I had a lot of time on my hands. So I was spending about, you know, that four hours, that four to five hours that I was spending after work, I was spending about half of it making videos and about half of it continuing to write code, write that software, that practice software for my family, that, that other people were now using. And by 2007, 2008, it was in the tens of thousands of people.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  And by 2009, it was in the hundreds of thousands of people were using it on a, on a regular basis.

• 43:51Guy Raz?

  At what point did you say to yourself, I think I want to do this. I think I want to do this full time. I think I actually want to turn this into something.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  There were many moments, you know, you can imagine in the investing world, you have your share of not so great days. You're like, maybe this is not what I should do. Maybe I should be, you know, this virtual tutor. And then you're like, okay, stop dreaming, Sal. You know, look, you got to pay off your debt, pay off your mortgage, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I'd had multiple cycles of that over the years. People in Silicon Valley, they do understand quitting your job. You know, some angel investor writes $100,000 check and you're off to the races. But I did incorporate it as a not for profit in 2008 to protect it.

• 44:31Guy Raz?

  From the get go, you said this is going to be a nonprofit even before you decided to make this your full time job?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  In my mind, it was almost, it was initially an emotional thing to do, which, you know, I was getting these letters from folks saying how it helped them. And that was such a precious thing, people's trust in me, that I never wanted them to even suspect that I'm doing it for any other reason. Now, look, there's a lot of for profits in many industries that do incredible things. And even in education, there's for profits that do good things. You know, obviously I was working at a hedge fund. I believe in capitalism. I believe in markets. But while I was at a hedge fund, I saw how much capital structure and incentives can really drive what an organization does.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  And the only organizations that really do stay true to some social bottom line over long periods of time are nonprofits. I did have some folks who were reaching out to me by 2008 saying, hey, our kids have been using your stuff. We think it's great. We think this is going to be the next big play in ed tech. Can I write a check and we'll start this thing?

• 45:40Guy Raz?

  I'm sure.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And it was tempting. But then by the second conversation, it was always like, okay, we'll give this stuff for free, hook people. And then you have the freemium content.

• 45:51Guy Raz?

  We'll sell it.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that just felt a little queasy to me. So, but even when I set it up as a nonprofit, I said, you know, I'm not going to quit my day job. I have a great day job. You know, this hedge fund thing, I can, I can make a lot of money. What I can do as a nonprofit is maybe get other volunteers who want to help. Maybe if we get some philanthropy, maybe I can help hire other people. And maybe if, you know, if I could be on a trajectory like Dan was, you know, Dan, if he kept at it, could have easily become, you know, the next Warren Buffett. But, uh, you know, he, he decided to kind of pseudo-retire at, at 40 to, uh, focus, focus on his family when, if he kept going, he could have easily become a multi-billionaire.

• 46:32Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  And I'm like, maybe I can retire early and be, you know, reasonably well off. So that, that I could, I could do this at that point.

• 46:41Guy Raz?

  That, I mean, that makes sense. So the plan was, let me, uh, make the money I need to make and be financially secure, and then I can devote my life to this thing and not worry about money.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 46:53Guy Raz?

  So, so what, how did you decide to leave that relatively secure and stable, not stable, but, you know, this, this path towards immense riches and jump into this full-time? What, what happened? What was the catalyst?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  You know, there's this guy, Jeremiah Hennessy, who's the founder of BJ's Restaurants. He got my email address, uh, and, and emailed me. And I was like, oh, this guy runs a large restaurant chain, publicly traded. Yeah, it seems legitimate. I should talk to him. And he's, I started having like these therapy conversations with him, almost like on a weekly basis. And he would just keep calling me and say, Sal, your purpose in life is not to, to be a hedge fund investor. I'm sure you're good at it, but that's not your purpose in life. You don't realize the content you've made, what it's done for my own family, what it could do for the world. You need to be doing this. And he's like, there's got to be some way that, that someone will fund this as a nonprofit. This, you know, the impact on the world could be so huge.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  And so when a legitimate person tells you that this is a legitimate thing to do, you start saying, maybe, but then you go home, you look at your, you know, my, my son was born in February of 2009. And I'm like, okay, no, I have, I have another mouth to feed. We, you know, we, um, we were renting a house, you know, that the rent had gone up because we had to move to a larger house. My mother-in-law had moved with, in with us as well. I'm like, there's no way I could do this right now.

• 48:18Guy Raz?

  You were not a millionaire.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  I was not a millionaire.

• 48:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  And then by, um, fall of 2009.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  There were several hundred thousand folks who were using the stuff I was making on a regular basis. I got a call from the local tech museum. They had this annual award ceremony, which is a pretty high profile thing called the Tech Awards. And they called and said, you've been nominated, one of three entities nominated to win this year's tech award. And I was like, wow. And so I was getting that validation that like, well, people are trying to take notice of this thing. And then CNN had called around the exact same time. I mean, if everyone remembers the context, the market was falling apart. And it turns out, I had made videos on, not just on math and science, I actually had made videos explaining the stock market and videos explaining what mortgage backed securities were and credit

• 49:09Speaker 01

  default swaps and collateralized debt obligations. And I started getting media houses contacting me saying, we are watching your explanations before reporting on the financial crisis.

• 49:19Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  And we think they're the best explanations out there. And then I remember Rick Sanchez on CNN reached out to me, says, I want you to come onto my show for 20 minutes and explain the financial crisis to America. So I'm like, wow, like, people are paying attention. So that was like my first signs from the universe that maybe this is what I should be doing.

• 49:42Guy Raz?

  Your wife, I think, was not yet a doctor. She was still in residency or maybe?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  She was, yeah, she was in fellowship at this point.

• 49:50Guy Raz?

  When you said, hey, I'm gonna leave finance and do this, was she nervous? I mean, was she like, sound like, it's great, but I mean, we don't have enough cash? Or did she say, okay, do it, but just for a short period of time?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a process. And, you know, look, every marriage, there's, I would call it moods or weather to the marriage. And, you know, if I caught her at a bad moment, it'd be like, I just got a weird look. But if I caught her at a good moment, she'd be like, no, you know, like, you've been showing me these letters you've been getting. They are incredible. And it does seem like you're on to something. But then, let's look at our finances. And we would look at it, you know, our rent, to rent a four bedroom house out here. At the time, it seemed like a lot. It was $4,000 a month. We were, you know, she was making probably $40,000 a year as a fellow.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  My mother-in-law was living with us. We had a child. We were hoping to have more children. Our expenses were only going higher. So she saw that I was having trouble focusing on anything else.

• 51:00Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  You know, that down payment we were saving, we said like, okay, maybe we can dig into that for a little bit for a year. I also say that a couple of philanthropists had reached out and said, we're interested in what you're doing. And so, you know, I was like, oh, surely one of these people will fund it. So let me.

• 51:19Guy Raz?

  And it'll be, and we're off to the races, right?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  And we're off to the races.

• 51:22Guy Raz?

  Million bucks and we're good to go.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I quit the job and then it doesn't work that way, work out that way.

• 51:28Guy Raz?

  All right. So you jump into this with both feet and did the money start to come in immediately? Did you start to get donors sending you checks?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Kind of, you know, those early, those early funders who seemed promising, you know, by conversation four or five, I started getting, well, this is really exciting, but it doesn't really fit in our portfolio or our budgets are already allocated. And so you go several months into it. I did have this little donate button on my website and there were people starting to donate. It was amounting to a few hundred dollars every month. If it was anyone listening, thank you for that. But we were digging into our savings about five or $6,000 a month. So it was incredibly stressful and, you know, but my male ego was trying to shelter my family from it. So I was putting on a strong face to my friends and family. And you can imagine my mother,

• 52:21Speaker 01

  who, you know, when I told her I'd quit my job, I, you know, I still, her first word was what? It was literally in that, in that, in that tone because, you know, as we talked about, I had now fallen into a really lucrative career and then to give that up and to do that for something that was like, not something that she could tell her friends at the next Indian party. You know, not only was there a monetary aspect to it, there was probably a shame aspect to this as well. That, that, you know, was, was, was hard.

• 52:53Guy Raz?

  Love, love your mom. Yeah, no, right. I mean, she came to the United States with nothing and really, you know, kind of was scraping by most of her career. And her son goes to MIT and then Harvard Business School.

• 53:11Guy Raz?

  And now he's calling mom and saying, um, yeah, I'm gonna do this nonprofit thing.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that no one that no one has funded this nonprofit thing that no one has funded. And I'm living off of savings. Would you like to see your grandson child that I really can't support? It's not, it's, it's a, you know, we'd go to gatherings and, um, you know, I, I remember one, at one party and they kind of asked what, what, what I do for a living. And I said, well, you know, I used to do this, uh, but you know, now I do this thing where I make math videos and I write the software as a nonprofit. And, you know, and they're asking all these questions. How is it funded? What's the model? I was like, yeah, I'm still working on this. I'm still figuring it out. And I remember when they were walking away, I mean, they literally said this, like, well, you know, he's lucky that his wife is a physician, you know? And it's like this, it's like a punch to the gut of your like fragile male ego.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  It's like, no, I can support my family too. You, you wait, you wait.

• 54:07Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, how Sal gets his first big donation for Khan Academy, and how he eventually winds up having a slightly surreal meeting with Bill Gates. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 54:29Guy Raz?

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• 55:14Guy Raz?

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• 56:00Guy Raz?

  What are some of the key traits that successful entrepreneurs have in common? Why do some people succeed when others fail? How do you build something with no connections, no money, and no experience? And can you learn to develop the skills and traits it takes to become an entrepreneur? To find out the answers to all these questions, pick up a copy of my new book, How I Built This. If you love this show, you will love this book. How I Built This, the book, is available everywhere books are sold. We're at guyraz.com.

• 56:40Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2009, and Sal has just left his high-paying job at a hedge fund to focus on Khan Academy full-time. And since it's just him, no other coders, no other teachers, this new venture is not costing him a lot of money. But what is costing him is the fact that he's no longer making any money.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  You know, the first three months, you're euphoric. You're, you know, you're super excited about your new lifestyle. It's this nonprofit do-gooder and all of that. I would say by month seven or eight, I couldn't sleep. I mean, I literally couldn't sleep.

• 57:23Guy Raz?

  Anxiety?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I was, yeah, I was getting anxious. I was waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweats. I was, you know, I would, I would look at my bank account over and over again and look at, you know, look at our expenses. I would run financial models for my family. You know, and my wife would say, oh, what are you? I was like, oh, nothing. You know, like, I mean, in hindsight, I was like, I shouldn't have been so, kept it just to myself. But I wasn't, I was in a really bad place mentally. And the stress and the anxiety was, was, was killing me.

• 57:53Guy Raz?

  Was there also that kind of maybe residual fear of like, Failing?

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's, you know, we talked a lot about childhood and, you know, not having a lot of resources growing up. I think I, and I frankly, still have a fear of being one catastrophe away from financial hardship.

• 58:12Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  And, you know, in 2009, I was like, I made the catastrophe happen. Like, I, it wasn't like a hurricane or something that's ruined our finances. It's not a fire. It's, it's like, I quit a good job. And like, the type of job that I had is not easy to get. These are highly sought after jobs. If I really had to, I could probably go get a job. But would I be able to get as good of a job as what I had? That, that actually probably was, was unlikely. And, you know, I would try to channel whatever nervous energy or anxiety I had into the work. I was like, let me make more videos. Let me, let, let me make more content. Let me write more code and, and hope that eventually someone will notice.

• 58:58Guy Raz?

  I guess, like, sort of, maybe it was a kind of a low point that you hit and a wealthy, very wealthy person reached out to you. This is Ann Dorr, the wife of John Dorr, the billionaire venture capitalist, kind of reached out to make a donation. What, what was the story?

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, you know, I have this theory that benevolent aliens are, are helping me so that Khan Academy can help prepare humanity for first contact. And, you know, the Ann Dorr coming into my life and then, you know, what happened shortly afterwards? It was May of 2010 and, you know, I was getting these donations off of PayPal and people donating $10, $20 every now and then a $50 donation would come in. That was pretty exciting. And then I saw a $10,000 donation come in.

• 59:47Guy Raz?

  Oh, it came in through the site, just $10,000, just like that?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was I, I mean, just like I got a email notification from PayPal that's like a donation has come in. I was like, oh, is this gonna be a 50? I was like, oh, it's a 10,000. And, and then, you know, I immediately did a Google search. And I was like, oh, wow, like Anne Doris, she's like a real philanthropist. And I immediately emailed her and I said, you know, thank you so much for this incredibly generous donation. This is the largest donation that Khan Academy has ever received. I tried to project like I'm a real institution. And if we were a physical school, you would now have a building named after you. And, and Anne immediately emails back and says, well, you know, I didn't realize that you weren't getting this kind of donations. I see that you're based in

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Mountain View. You know, I've been using your stuff with my daughters. I've been using it even myself to understand the financial crisis and accounting and finance. If you have time, I would love to grab lunch with you. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And so, a week later, maybe a few days later, we were in downtown Palo Alto at an Indian buffet restaurant. She asks me over lunch, so what, what's your goal here? And I told her, when I filled out the paperwork with the IRS to become a nonprofit, that little part of the form was like mission colon, and they give you a line and a half, I filled out a free world-class education for anyone, anywhere. And she looked at me, she's like,

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  well, that's ambitious. How do you see yourself doing that? And I told her, you know, to be very clear, that's a mission. I don't think I'm just going to be able to check it off this weekend and then move on to healthcare or something. But I showed her, you know, she was already familiar with the content I was making. I showed her the exercise, the software platform I was making. I said, look, videos are nice, and I want to keep making videos. I really enjoy that. I want to translate it into the languages of the world. But the real learning happens when students are able to work on exercises, get immediate feedback. Ideally, teachers and parents can get dashboards to understand where their kids are and how to do more interventions. You know, I've by this point been rejected by so many major foundations, probably about 20 of them. So, but in

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Preparation for all of them. I had a binder of testimonials from around the world. I mean, it was literally several hundreds of pages thick. And you know, these letters, so I showed it to her. I showed her how the the usage was growing exponentially. And I was like, you know, I think this could eventually reach like all of humanity. She's like, well, you you've made a lot of progress. How I only have one question. How are you supporting yourself?

• 1:02:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  And as proud of a way as possible, I said, I'm not. And she kind of processes that.

• 1:02:35Guy Raz?

  Cause she's thinking you're a big shot. You you're like doing TV interviews and hundreds of thousands of people using this like, right?

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I had been on CNN and I didn't realize there was actually, there was a buzz about Khan Academy in Silicon Valley at the time that I didn't know about. No one, they weren't, I wasn't in the know. I wasn't even in the right circles to be experiencing the buzz. And so anyways, you know, she she she offered to pay the bill and I I said, oh, if you insist. And and, you know, 10 minutes later, I'm I'm driving into my my driveway and I get a text message from Ann. And it says, you really need to be supporting yourself. I've just wired you $100,000.

• 1:03:17Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  That was just, you know, it's like one of those moments where you just like stare at the phone and you sit in your driveway for like the next half an hour.

• 1:03:24Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Like, you know, holy crap.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I I think I was, I might have cried, you know, like it was that type of because you, you know, all that stress that builds up over the months, all of a sudden it just gets released. You know, and it's not that 100,000 was all of a sudden gonna like change everything forever, but it's like, okay, I can now pay my bills. We're not gonna have to dip into savings. You know, it made it gave a, like, I can do this for a few more months, at least for a year at least, or maybe even a little longer.

• 1:03:59Guy Raz?

  So she fires you a $100,000 check. And I guess that same year, 2010, the Aspen Ideas Festival happens. And Bill Gates is there. And he's telling the audience that he uses this thing called Khan Academy. How did you find out about Bill Gates mentioning you at Aspen?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  So I started getting text messages from Ann, which you can imagine I now take very seriously. And she, there were four or five of them, and they were kind of cryptic, as text messages often are. And they said, this is Ann writing, "I'm at the Aspen Ideas Festival, main pavilion, Walter Isaacson interviewing Bill Gates. Gates' last five minutes talking about Khan Academy."

• 1:04:47Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  And once, I just kind of stared. I was like, what is she talking about? And I started doing a web search for Aspen, Gates, Khan Academy. After about 10 minutes, I actually found the delayed recording of the interview. And Walter Isaacson asks Bill Gates, "What are you excited about right now?"

• 1:05:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  He didn't even say anything. And he says, "Well, there's this one guy, I think his name is Sal Khan, and he's created this thing called Khan Academy. I've been using it with my kids. I've been using it myself, and it's really great." And it was clear, not only was he using it, but he was eerily familiar with my story. He's like, "Yeah, this one guy, his wife let him quit his job. He was making stuff for his cousins." You know, it's just one of those moments where you're just like, is this really happening?

• 1:05:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah. What, did you have any idea that Bill Gates was using this with his children?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  I had no idea at all. I mean, it was, it definitely gelled with some of the delusions that I've had over time. But it, you know, I had no clue. And I remember that night I went home, I immediately showed my wife the video when she got home from her fellowship. And, you know, we both kind of stared at each other a little bit. And I was just like, what do I do now? You know? Do I call him? How do I contact? I'm sure he's not listed.

• 1:06:14Guy Raz?

  Right. How do you contact Bill Gates?

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Wasn't obvious. And so simultaneously, a reporter from Fortune had reached out, actually before this happened, saying, oh, you know, there's this thing you're doing. It's really interesting. We'd like to do a story about it. And so I was already talking to the reporter and that reporter calls and he's like, did you know that Bill Gates uses Khan Academy? I was like, I had no idea. And then the reporter, Robert Kaplan with Fortune, he says, I'm going to call Bill up. I'm like, if you think you can call Bill up and do that. And so he calls me like two days later. He's like, Bill took my call. He, I just interviewed Bill Gates about you. And, and, and it's like this really surreal thing, because this person that's obviously like a lifetime hero, like, you know, you

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  grew up in computer science, reading about Bill Gates. And, and then the Fortune article came out, and I still had not met Bill yet, or even had any contact with them. And the article said something like, the title was Bill Gates's favorite teacher.

• 1:07:14Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  You know, and, you know, the press sometimes writes these hyperbolic headlines to, and I almost felt insecure. I was like, am I his favorite teacher? Like, did he say that? Are they misrepresenting? Like, I felt serious imposter syndrome. And then I got a call, my cell phone rings right when I'm going to record a video. And I answer, I say, hello, and I hear, you know, this is Larry Cohen, I'm Bill Gates, Chief of Staff. You might have heard that Bill's a fan. And I was like, yeah, I heard that. And if you're, if you're free over the next couple of weeks, would love to fly you up to Seattle and learn more about what you're doing, maybe ways we could work together. And I was looking at my calendar for the month, it was completely blank. And I said, yeah, maybe next Wednesday, you know,

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  I've got to cut my nails, do some laundry. I'm happy to meet, happy, happy to meet with Bill, can make that work. So yeah, I flew up and, and, and we had that meeting.

• 1:08:08Guy Raz?

  What was that like?

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  And it was a little bit awkward. There wasn't like an obvious like, oh, you know, I love what you're doing. It was like, oh, so, you know, there was a little bit of a prompt. I think Larry might have said, oh, so tell Bill what you're up to. And then I just started into, I had my laminated slides that showed and with me.

• 1:08:28Guy Raz?

  I love it. You didn't bring a laptop. You brought laminated slides. I love that.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  I mean, there's an irony to it that, you know, I'm obviously someone involved in technology, kind of kind of based on technology. I'm presenting to the creator of PowerPoint. So yeah, I went through it and, and at the end, and you know, he didn't give during the presentation, a lot of feedback. So I just kind of kept going and it's one of those moments where, you know, 20% of your brain is trying to do what it needs to do. And then the other 80% of your brain's saying, you're talking to Bill Gates. That's Bill Gates. He's three feet away. Don't mess this up, Sal. Don't mess this up. You're about to mess this up. Don't mess this up. And then when I was kind of done, he kind of nods. He's like, yeah, no, this makes a ton of sense. This is great. This is great. And I'm like, oh my God, this, you know, and then I got overconfident. I remember I threw out another idea. He's like, no, that doesn't make sense. I was like, oh yeah, you're right.

• 1:09:22Guy Raz?

  Wow. But was there any like, and here's a plan on how we could collaborate? Was there any of that at all?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  No, they asked, they, Bill said, well, what would you do with more resources? And, you know, I was like, this is a question I have to answer really well. And I said, look, you know, it's just me in a closet right now with more resources. We could translate this to the languages of the world. We could build out the software platform. So more people can access it. We could build tools for teachers. And, you know, I said, I think we could, we're reaching hundreds of thousands now. I think we could reach a million folks by the end of this year, and it could be 10 or 100 million, you know, by the end of the decade. They said, well, what do you need for that? And, you know, I said, look, if I, if I could hire up about five, six engineers and educators and content folks, I think we'll be up and running. So, you know,

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  fully loaded costs in Silicon Valley, that'd be a million, million and a half dollars a year. And so they said, yeah, well, we'll, we'll think about that. That seems reasonable. So, and then a few days later, they said, yeah, that's, they feel that they could do that. So I started talking to the Gates Foundation about, about that, that grant. And simultaneously, folks from Google had reached out.

• 1:10:33Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  You know, Google had made this promise in 2008, which was the 10 year anniversary of Google, that it would donate $10 million to five projects that had the potential to change the world. And they determined that one of those projects has to be a project that has a chance to educate the world. And they on their own said, we've done a lot of research and we think what you are doing has the best chance of helping to educate the world. And I was like, okay, well, I'm glad you've been listening in on my delusions. And by fall of 2010, both the Google and the Gates Foundation each gave about $2 million.

• 1:11:09Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  So we had a $4 million initial funding for that first two years to hire up a team, internationalize and start scaling Khan Academy.

• 1:11:18Guy Raz?

  Wow, more than $4 million.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Guy Raz?

  So now you've got to grow, you've got to build, you've got to get office space, you've got to hire people, you've got to really turn this thing that was just you into a thing. So what did you do? I mean, that's kind of overwhelming, right? I mean, isn't it?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. I mean, I immediately call one of my closest friends, Shantanu Sinha. He was someone I first met actually in Louisiana. He beat me at a math competition in 10th grade. And then we were on the same team of representing Louisiana at national academic games. So that's how I got to know him. He ended up becoming my roommate freshman year at MIT. So, you know, we're, we're, we're pretty much like brothers. And I, I said, hey, Shantanu, I need help. Like, I know this wasn't on your career path to start it, to, to help me kind of get this thing off the ground, but like, I need your help and I think it'll be fun.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, I, he, he took a couple of days to think about it and, um, he decided to, to take the plunge with me. And so he quit his McKinsey job and, uh, joined Khan Academy as, as a president and COO to essentially help me turn into a real organization. At the same time, there were these two engineers. I mean, it's once again, it's really eerie how these people came out of the woodwork. These two engineers that summer. Ben Kamens and Jason Rozoff, they had volunteered for Khan Academy. And I just assumed they were some young kids who were looking for some experience. But when they were volunteering, I'm like, these guys are incredible. Like, these are some of the best engineers and designers I've ever worked with in my life. Who are they? And then I realized they're actually like known figures.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  They were like, you know, really well-known engineers and designers. And so they were shunned through my next call, who said, hey, would you guys want to work full-time for Khan Academy? I think we're going to get funding. And they, after a few months, we were able to convince them. They worked initially remotely from New York, but then they were able to move out to the Bay Area.

• 1:13:23Guy Raz?

  So as you began to grow and scale and hire more people, I'm assuming you kind of wanted to professionalize it a little bit more and maybe kind of start to replace some of those early screen capture videos that you'd made in 2006 and '07?

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the interesting, there's a constant tension as an organization grows of how do you make sure you do what's right from a professionalization point of view, from a scaling, from a managerial point of view? But how do you make sure that you're not just doing the things that everyone else does that ends up creating these large bureaucratic organizations that, you know, aren't always the most innovative? And how do you make sure you don't lose whatever secret sauce you had that made you a success initially? And a lot of Khan Academy's, I can say not-so-secret sauce, I believe, was its eccentricity, its quirkiness, its informality, coupled with its depth and intuition and desire to, you know, show the wonder in the universe and the curiosity.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  And so, you know, the last 10 years for me have just been, how do I balance that? You know, can I bring in other people who also complement us? But we do not lose that entrepreneurial, that creativity, that curiosity, that eccentricity, that quirkiness that made Khan Academy what it is.

• 1:14:41Guy Raz?

  Was the, I mean, at that point, you were still, what you were offering was still mainly math and finance. Was the ambition to? To offer as much as you possibly could offer in as many subject areas as possible.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember writing kind of these envisioning docs back in 2008, 2009 and says, "Okay, we want to create a world where anyone on the planet has access to all the core academic learning they need from pre-K through the core of college across subjects and grades." It was part of the initial vision that, yeah, one day we would try to figure out, you know, language arts, humanities, et cetera, et cetera, because they're important, early learning. And then we'll just keep running experiments to see how they go and, you know, we're still on that journey.

• 1:15:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:32Guy Raz?

  I interviewed the founders of Headspace, which is a different, obviously, it's a for-profit company, it's a meditation app, but initially, all the meditations were Andy, Andy Puttycomb, if you're familiar with it.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  I'm very, I'm very familiar with it.

• 1:15:44Guy Raz?

  Right, right. And initially, all the videos were Sal Khan, but Sal Khan is not scalable. You cannot make tens of thousands of videos. Was that clear to you pretty, pretty soon after you started, the funding started to come in, that you needed to get other people to make videos to your standards?

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Now, you know, we don't have a lot of folks making videos. I still make a lot of them. I, I pretty much make all of the math and science video, and then we have a few other folks who are doing some history videos and some language arts videos.

• 1:16:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  And, and one of the reasons why we, we were, we became a little sensitive of, like, not just outsourcing it to 500 folks is we got a lot of feedback that, you know, education, even when it's done in this kind of distance way or asynchronous, you have to really trust your teacher. You have to trust that they're, they're going to get me to someplace that I, I know is going to be insightful and there's going to be an aha moment that you're willing to invest in it. And we've had moments where, you know, there's a video from me, a video from me, and then there's a video from someone else. And it just, even though they might be explaining that better than I could have, it could be dissonant for the student where they're feeling, wait, I really got connected that my teacher and now a substitute showed up. So, but we've been trying to balance that.

• 1:16:59Guy Raz?

  It's amazing. I met David Coleman a couple of years ago, the head of the College Board, and he talked about the partnership that they did with Khan Academy where you offer free SAT prep, which it essentially really had a pretty big impact on the for-profit SAT prep industry because you're essentially offering this product and service for free.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's, um, I think all of these players, they're trying to do what they can in the context that they're doing it. But David Coleman reached out, and it was really, I think, David's brainchild when he took over the College Board, that, you know, the College Board, the folks who administer the SAT and the AP exams, you know, it was, the College Board was a non-for-profit that came into existence to try to level the playing field. That, you know, 100 years ago, the only kids who were getting into Ivy League schools were kids of legacy, kids who-

• 1:17:50Guy Raz?

  Prep schools.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Went to the right schools.

• 1:17:51Guy Raz?

  Exactly.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  And the notion of the SAT is, let's give a chance for the kid in Metairie, Louisiana to, to, to compete with the kids from Andover, or Choate, or Deerfield. But over time, as we know, this whole industry, this billion-dollar industry came up around what looked like creating a perceived and maybe actual advantage for the, for the, you know, upper-middle-class or affluent. And, you know, David said, "Look, we've been secretly observing Khan Academy, and what we really like about Khan Academy is y'all are about really learning the material." I had actually made some SAT videos for Navia and my cousins. I actually went through the SAT practice book, and I did every problem in the book on video for my cousins. So that it was a 400-something problems, and I was afraid that the College Board was going to

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  sue me because I didn't take their permission to, like, screen capture their problems. But Dave is like, "I watched that, and what I really liked about it is, at no point did you say, 'Oh, this is how you guess.'" You always said, "Oh, this is a concept you need to learn to be ready for college. This is where you learn it. This is how you learn it." There was a little bit of test-taking strategy. He's like, "That's what test prep should be. It should be something that genuinely makes you better, genuinely makes you more prepared for college, and, and how you perform the SAT is just going to be a byproduct of that."

• 1:19:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  So he said, "How about we partner to create the world's best test prep that happens to be free?" And it made sense to me, and over time, the relationship has evolved where they actually pay us resources to create free test prep, which is, you know, that's, that's the type of revenue I love because it's, it helps sustain us, but it's, it's free to the student.

• 1:19:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah. This year, the most challenging year for school aged kids for many decades. And it's looking like this year probably will be remote, most of the year will be remote for many, many, if not most, kids in the United States. I have to imagine that you have seen a dramatic uptick in users, usage this year.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we first caught wind in February, this past February, that, you know, something interesting was happening. We got a letter from a teacher in South Korea telling us that he was heavily dependent on Khan Academy as they had their nationwide school closures. And that was the first time I was like, wow, a whole country's closing schools because of this COVID thing? That's, that's wild. And a few weeks later, you know, I live here in Santa Clara County, which is, I think it was the first community spread happened here.

• 1:20:23Guy Raz?

  Right, right.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  And a local private school had to shut down due to contact tracing. That's when it first dawned on us, it's like, wow, this, this might hit the US, which even then seemed like science fiction in early March. But, you know, it was one of those moments where you look left and you look right and you realize, I think this is us. Because if schools have to shut down physically in the United States, people are going to need something clearly online. It would have to cover multiple subjects and grades, it would have to have efficacy research behind it, it would have to be trusted, you know, it should be accessible on mobile devices and computers, everything. It was clear we were going to, we're going to have a big role to play. So we started, you know, asking our engineering team to stress test the servers, make sure we can handle more server load. And then the next week, you know, California was one of the first states to say that they were going to close.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  And then by the end of this week, pretty much most of the country and the world had shut down. You know, we normally see about, pre-COVID, it was about 20 million students were coming per month, and that increased to 30 million. And then they were also spending 50% more time on the site. And then, you know, our registrations went through the roof, you know, they, those went 10x of, of normal on a daily basis. And I think right now, we're sitting at around 110 million registered users.

• 1:21:33Guy Raz?

  What is your, what is your operating budget, your annual operating budget?

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Our annual operating budget now is in the the high 50 million, which every time I say it gives me a cortisol spike.

• 1:21:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  But about 5 million of our of our funding comes from a few hundred thousand people donating on average 20, 30 dollars. So there's a lot of people donating because hopefully.

• 1:21:56Guy Raz?

  Still hitting the donate button on the site.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, asking people for money is a very humbling thing to do. My hope was always let me show people how great this is. I have to become a little bit more explicit saying that I have a need, but and then hopefully people would show up.

• 1:22:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Guy Raz?

  I think last time I checked, it's more than this now. Khan Academy videos have been viewed like almost 2 billion times, which is insane.

• 1:22:29Guy Raz?

  I have to imagine, Sal, over the last few years, as the kind of ed tech sector has exploded, right? And lots of schools buy these programs, Dreambox and other for-profit programs that are available to help children with math and other language skills, et cetera. I mean, I'm sure people came to you and said, Sal, let's spin off a for-profit channel here. You've got something big here, you know, there's, there's, you know, and then you won't have to worry about raising money for for Khan Academy, you know, you can still do that, but let's, let's do that. I mean, that must have happened, that must still happen.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, we do oftentimes, you know, sometimes I'll go to a potential philanthropist and they're like, well, I'd rather invest than donate, something like that. And, you know, people, I think there's some creative ideas that I would entertain. They're like, well, you know, Khan Academy's brand is so valuable, you know, what if we could take that brand and do it in this tangential spaces, you know, and Khan Academy can have equity and maybe they can help build an endowment for, you know, and I'm always open to ideas. But what I always remind myself, and look, I'm, I'm not someone who has transcended, you know, material desires. I try to transcend material desires, but I'm, you know, I, I have now and then go to a friend who's, you know, done well with their IPO or something and they've, they've got the new Tesla or they're living in a, you know, they're living slightly upstream,

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  the, the income gradient in our name, you know, and, and, and they're a little higher up the hill.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  But I remind myself, one, I consider myself incredibly fortunate to be able to do what I am doing. And, you know, the way I think about it is, I've done my philanthropy in reverse order. And, you know, I could have stayed in the hedge fund world and, you know, maybe one day become a multimillionaire or larger. And then, but then what would I have done with that Monday? You know, I'm not someone who wants that much. You know, I want to be able to, you know, have a backyard, be able to, you know, support the family, you know, go on a vacation once or twice a year.

• 1:24:26Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  And anything above that, if I did become a billionaire, I frankly would have donated it to an effort like Khan Academy. So you might as well just cut out the middleman, you know, just time shift it and work on it. And I do generally think that it has benefited the mission and the vision, because once, you know, people hopefully are viewing it as an institution, they do, they're rooting for it, because they realize that it's not, it doesn't have an ulterior motive.

• 1:24:50Guy Raz?

  You know, everybody I've had on the show over the past four years that you are most like is Jimmy Wales. Jimmy Wales has had an incredibly enormous influence on the world with Wikipedia, right? Had they done this as a for-profit, he could have been a multimillionaire. His argument was it wouldn't have worked. You had to make it a nonprofit. And by the way, he said, look, I don't really care about having lots of money. I have a really interesting life. I get to meet really interesting people. Interesting people want to meet me. I get to have, get exposed to all these ideas. That, to me, is worth more than any amount of money I could ever have. And that's really stuck with me, because I think he's right. I think he's right.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  I agree with him. I mean, you know, I, like Jimmy Wales, by virtue of this adventure I've been on, I get lenses into really interesting parts of the world, which for the most part have made me more optimistic about the world. You know, every now and then I'm, you know, get invited to various conferences that, you know, where, you know, very powerful people are talking about the problems of society and how to fix them. And when you, when you get into these circles, you realize, most of these people are honestly just trying to help. You might not agree with everyone, et cetera, et cetera, but it's actually been very, it's made me more optimistic about the world, not less.

• 1:26:14Guy Raz?

  When you think about this, just this incredible journey and the amazing success of Khan Academy, how much do you think it has to do with, you know, your skill and how hard you worked and your intelligence and how much do you attribute it to luck?

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  It's all of the above. I mean, it's, you know, one person can call it luck. One person might call it benevolent aliens working in your favor to prepare humanity for first contact. But yeah, there's something, you know, that I can't, I mean, there's a lot that I can't take credit for. I mean, and above and beyond luck, there's, I guess it's luck where I was born, where I was born, I had the teachers I had, had the friendship supports that I had, and then, you know, fell into things at the right time. And but every now and then you see a door crack open, you say, I think there's something interesting on the other side of the door, and you've got to sprint through it. And so I try not to overthink when when there are signs in my life that like, that door is open. Don't,

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  don't make someone have to force you through the door. Like, run through that door.

• 1:27:20Guy Raz?

  That's Salman Khan, founder of Khan Academy. By the way, if you Google his full name, Salman Khan, you will find at least one other famous person who has exactly the same name. That other Salman Khan is one of the most popular Bollywood actors in the world.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  And actually, I was, I was in India five years ago, and I met him. I think it's just because, you know, people from the subcontinent like just get a kick out of things like that. Let's get this guy and that guy to hang out together.

• 1:27:48Guy Raz?

  Let's get Salman Khan and Salman Khan together.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's, there's some YouTube videos of us, you know, having, getting co-interviewed. He's a, he's a big star and

• 1:27:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah, he's like a big heartthrob. He's like a major heartthrob.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's also very well known for his physique. He's kind of the, the guy that, that taught Bollywood that, you know, Indians don't all have to look like software engineers.

• 1:28:09Guy Raz?

  And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can write to us at [email protected]. Our Twitter handles are at How I Built This or at Guy Raz. Our Instagram accounts are at Guy.Raz or at How I Built This NPR. Our show was produced this week by Jed Anderson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Julia Carney, Candace Lim, Derris Gales, J.C. Howard, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.