He Saw Four TIC TAC UFOs - Then AARO Came Calling

It’s easy to demand that UFO witnesses step forward. It’s considerably harder to live with what happens after they do. Senior Chief Alex Wiggins never intended to become part of UFO history. In February 2023, while serving aboard the USS Jackson off the coast of Southern California, Wiggins detected an unusual radar contact and went outside to investigate. What he says he witnessed was extraordinary: an unidentified object apparently emerging from the ocean, joining three similar Tic Tac-shaped objects, and then moving with them in coordinated formation. Navy sensors captured part of the encounter before all four objects rapidly departed. Wiggins eventually stepped forward, told his story publicly on WEAPONIZED, and testified before Congress in September 2025. The U. S. Navy supported his decision to testify, assisted with his travel, and backed one of its own as he described under oath what he and other sailors witnessed. But according to Wiggins, what happened afterward was very different. In this episode of WEAPONIZED, Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp share their previously unreleased live conversation with Wiggins at Contact in the Desert, where the active-duty Senior Chief describes what he characterizes as coercion and intimidation from AARO. Wiggins says that after he declined requests to repeat his account inside a SCIF, AARO contacted his chain of command and eventually raised the possibility of escalating the matter to Secretary of War Pete Hegseth in order to compel his participation. Why would a government office tasked with investigating UAP push an active-duty witness who had already testified publicly before Congress to recount the same information inside a classified environment? Wiggins explains why that prospect concerned him, what his Navy leadership did in response, and why he continues to stand behind what he witnessed aboard the USS Jackson. Jeremy and George also examine the larger battle over UFO transparency, the risks faced by military witnesses and whistleblowers, what remains hidden in government UAP archives, and why the public should keep demanding the evidence behind extraordinary claims. The witnesses are talking. The question is whether the government actually wants us to hear them. GOT A TIP? Leave a message for us at +1 (323) 484-4738Reach out to us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠•••MERCH : https://Weaponized-Shop. Fourthwall.comMAIN : https://YouTube.com/@JeremyCorbellCLIPS : https://YouTube.com/@WEAPONIZEDclipsMORE : https://WeaponizedPodcast.com•••Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠•••You can now watch all of Corbell's movies for free on YouTube here :BOB LAZAR : AREA 51 & FLYING SAUCERS⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/sZaE5rIavVA⁠⁠⁠⁠HUNT FOR THE SKINWALKER⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/TczkJ6UAQ8A⁠⁠⁠⁠PATIENT SEVENTEEN⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/gDVX0kRqXxE⁠⁠⁠⁠•••For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Streaming October 30th on Paramount Plus.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you.

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  You're having a midlife crisis.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  I'm not ready for that.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  He's back.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  I'm older. I'm wiser.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  And sharper than ever.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Dexter Resurrection, new season October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 1:00George Knapp?

  Chief Wiggins comes along and sees not one Tic Tac, but four.

• 1:04Speaker 05

  Senior Chief Operations Specialist in the United States Navy.

• 1:07George Knapp?

  Evidence of four of them off the coast of Southern California.

• 1:11Speaker 06

  As he's sluing to that location, that's when we realized this light is meeting up with other Tic Tacs. And that's where you see the video kick in. They're moving as if they're being controlled by the same thing because they're making the same movements at the same time. But it was so quick that indescribable. When you go to the school for OS, you have to learn silhouettes. In a lot of rates, you have to learn silhouettes and you just have to know that's a DDG. This is, you know, a prowler, different aircraft, different submarines. You have to learn this when you're first coming into the Navy and a lot of the schools. I've been seeing different silhouettes of air, surface and subsurface my whole career.

• 1:51Speaker 06

  Looking at that day and understanding that there were no plumes, there was nothing I was able to see on that day when I described to my, my fellow watchstanders. Some of the skeptics onboard the ship were like, oh, well, that's just another, you know, commercial comm nav radar, as we would call it. I think maybe 30, 45 seconds pass and a commercial navigation pops up on my radar. And I say, okay, zoom into that on, on there. And you see the plume, you see the wings.

• 2:28George Knapp?

  This is Weaponized. I'm George Knapp, hanging out here in Las Vegas. Kind of a cool day, joined by my friend and colleague, Jeremy Corbell. Jeremy, there was supposed to be a hurricane slamming into Southern California over Labor Day weekend. Did that happen?

• 2:42Speaker 07

  Uh, no, so, so I haven't noticed that, you know, but yeah, it can't be weather change, right? Climate change?

• 2:48George Knapp?

  Oh, no, no, don't say that. Not allowed to say that. It's, it's cool here. It's, it's overcast. There was some rain this morning, sprinkles. Whatever caused it, thank God it, it happened because we just came through like the hottest summer ever recorded in Las Vegas ever. And again, I'm not saying that's climate change, just one of those things, sunspots or whatever caused it. We're coming up on a big anniversary. So a year ago this week, Chief Wiggins, Chief Alex Wiggins and four other witnesses, me included, were in front of Congress. It was the last public UFO hearing, UFO related hearing. And maybe there'll be another one someday, but there hasn't been since then. And that was a big, big splash or could have been if, if the news gods hadn't changed

• 3:32George Knapp?

  things around in the middle of that week. But Chief Wiggins testimony, I think was key. And, um, you know, there've been a lot of changes in his life and challenges that have popped up because he had the courage to come forward, right?

• 3:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, and that, that was pretty cool because the Navy got behind it. So just so people understand, when you're doing these hearings, and it was an amazing hearing, and that was where you, Senior Chief Wiggins and, and everybody else was, was testifying. It was the last one almost a year ago. Are we going to have more? Are more gonna help? Would Jay Stratton testifying in the future help? I think the public wants to hear directly from these people. So I do think there's a lot of value in having more hearings. But at that hearing, having Alexandra Wiggins, Senior Chief Wiggins, it was kind of a protective maneuver. It's like, get it all out, get there in front of the American public, tell everything that you know. There's this lengthy process that you have to go to where people have to get validated

• 4:28Speaker 07

  that they, their story is important, that, that certain aspects of it can be validated, that it is worthy of being a testimony and that, and that you can do it. And, um, that's what we went through with Chief Wiggins. What was different with him was that the Navy really got behind it. And that was really cool. The Navy's always been really, uh, in my experience, more open when you go ask questions about this compared to like air force. So to have him there and have the Navy behind him, they even said, we'll protect you. Like, if you don't want to do this, if you don't want to talk to people, let us know. He goes, no, I'll do it. I feel like it's my duty. That, that's what he said. So it was a really cool hearing. The news did change. The Charlie Kirk murder happened. I was on the way back on the plane and I was supposed to go to NBC or something.

• 5:11Speaker 07

  And it was just, everything was canceled because the news did get takeover. But those clips, George, have lived on. So when people have posted about what you and the others have said, that really got a lot of traction is one of the most important hearings that we've had.

• 5:27George Knapp?

  So September 9th is the anniversary date, uh, one year since that hearing. And of course, there've been some challenges that have popped up in the life of Chief Wiggins since he stepped forward. He's not a whistleblower. He's not spilling inside info or, or deep dark government secrets. He's a witness and he's a witness to something similar to the most significant UFO event maybe ever, the Tic Tac case. And, and you know, there, there may be cases that are better documented, although the, the documentation for the original Tic Tac is really good. November 2004, Dave Fravor, Chief Underwood, Commander Underwood, a lot of radar data that was collected. There was a report put together for OSAP, the first investigation of Tic Tac.

• 6:11George Knapp?

  I mean, it's really important because the impact it had, that was the centerpiece of the New York Times story that came out in 2017. And boom, it blew things open, uh, in regarding to the, the legitimacy of the UFO, UAP subject matter. Chief Wiggins comes along more than 20 years later and sees not one Tic Tac, but four evidence of four of them, uh, off the coast of Southern California, similar to the area where the original was seen. And wow, um, the release of that video, we did it on Weaponized here and showed it to the world. And he came forward and testified again with the blessings of the US Navy, which is in the forefront of transparency on this issue.

• 6:54George Knapp?

  But things have popped up in his life since he did what he thought was the right thing, right? And we, we had a chance to interview him at Contact in the Desert. Never shared publicly what happened on that stage, but we're gonna do that now, right?

• 7:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's show his interview. I think it's really important. You're gonna hear more from him, but he told everybody publicly what happened. And, um, yeah, his case is very significant and our government is treating it as very significant. So let's, let's hear what he has to say and we'll come back and wrap up about it.

• 7:23Speaker 06

  Thank you. Thank you both. Let's give it up for, uh, the legendary George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell. Please.

• 7:34George Knapp?

  You're not getting away with that. Get away with that. You're not getting away with that. Turn on his mic, man. Two, one. Hello?

• 7:41Speaker 06

  All right. So walk us through what you saw.

• 7:46George Knapp?

  Walk us through what you, walk us through what you saw.

• 7:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:49George Knapp?

  And what was on that video?

• 7:51Speaker 06

  In that video that you just saw, um, it was surreal to see craft like that, you know, we, growing up in Las Vegas, those that don't know, I grew up in Las Vegas. I grew up watching George Knapp my whole life.

• 8:07George Knapp?

  I'm sorry.

• 8:09Speaker 06

  So, uh, and as Jeremy mentioned, you know, um, I, I grew up, uh, my dad worked at what's now Area 51. So this is nothing new to me as far as having insight as far as like being skeptical, right? But that day onboard the ship, the USS Jackson, um, seeing what we saw was surreal. And, um, we don't have, at, at least at the time, we didn't have anything in place to make reports, to be able to talk about that kind of stuff. So we didn't know what to do, you know? It was, is, is this thing coming towards the ship? Is it something I should report to higher headquarters? Didn't know.

• 8:47Speaker 06

  So, um, after the video ends there, I think it's like a 35 second video. It's near instantaneous. There are four of them and they all just take off, you know, coastally towards the coast. Surreal. I, I would have never thought I'd see something like that.

• 9:07George Knapp?

  How does it start? I mean, somebody sees it on a screen or somebody sees it come out of the water with their eyes they see it or, or you, it was on a sensor? Walk us through it.

• 9:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, uh, the position that I was in was the air controller. So, uh, I am still active duty Navy, um, not on the Jackson anymore. So as an air controller.

• 9:27George Knapp?

  I'm sorry? Did you have to? Get permission to be here from the Navy?

• 9:31Speaker 06

  No, I mean, I'm not in uniform, so not wearing my uniform today. It's the weekend. So, doing it for you guys.

• 9:42George Knapp?

  You're speaking for yourself?

• 9:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, speaking for myself, and you know, I did get permission from the Navy when I testified in Congress, so I got permission in 2025. They were very, very leaning forward to help me, and it came down the chain of command, which was very helpful to be able to testify and share what I witnessed on the February.

• 10:05George Knapp?

  Back to the event, though. So, were you up on Tic Tacs? Do you know what they looked like? Were you familiar with the 2004 event? And did you recognize it as soon as you saw it, either with your eyes or on video?

• 10:16Speaker 06

  Originally, I didn't recognize it because I was looking at my radar, and so I had a radar contact and decided to go check it out on the port bridge wing and see what was going on, just to verify. We're off the coast of San Diego, so I'm not thinking anything is out of the norm. We go underway, ships go underway all the time, just to do routine operations. So, going out there to check, it was nighttime-ish, getting dark, and I wanted to take a look and see what light I could see, because I saw the altitude was really low on my kinematics on my radar. So, going out there, seeing a light surface,

• 10:56Speaker 06

  was a little skeptical. I've been air controlling for 20 years, so the only thing I can come up with was either a helicopter with a solid light, which they don't have, or something dredging and coming up with the crane, and I was like, it can't be either one of these. But to see it surface from the water at that distance and continue to rise, at that point, I was like, this, I can't be seeing what I'm seeing.

• 11:22George Knapp?

  And then you and your colleagues realized there's more than one of them?

• 11:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that one light started moving starboard of the ship, and I'd only seen that one light. So, I went to our camera operator, and he decided to, I kind of gave him direction to slew sapphire. Sapphire is the actual system, the camera system. So, I said, slew to this location relative to the ship. And as he's sluing to that location, that's when we realized this light is meeting up with other Tic Tacs. And that's where you see the video kick in, where we kind of zoom in. I tell him, hey, zoom in. So, he zooms in twice to get the one Tic Tac that we were following, and we start realizing

• 12:08Speaker 06

  there are more out there. And there were a total of four, all together grouped together. And they're moving in such a way, the way I kind of described it is, they're moving as if they're being controlled by the same thing, because they're making the same movements at the same time. So, it's as if I had a remote control in my hand, and I'm controlling all four at the same time. I couldn't explain it. There was no better way to explain it at the moment.

• 12:36George Knapp?

  And then just poof, they're gone?

• 12:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. After we zoomed out, and the video ends about 30 seconds later, you just see them. It wasn't instant, because I imagine instant, if I were to describe instant, it's as if you closed your eyes, blinked your eyes, and opened your eyes, and it's gone. It wasn't that. We saw the direction in which it went, but it was so quick that indescribable. But you saw the direction, all four at the same time. Poof.

• 13:05Speaker 07

  That's exactly what Commander Fravor, can you hear me? That's exactly what Commander Fravor described, and a lot of people described to me. It's like, you can tell the direction in which it went, and it moves impossibly fast, but there's an indication of what direction it was going. It's not like it's there, and then it's gone on the screen. There's like this movement. I showed Commander Fravor the footage, you know, because it is interesting. And he said, when he testified in front of Congress, he says, "We don't have the technology

• 13:44Speaker 07

  to build that now. We didn't have the technology to build it then, in 2004." And he says, "We're not even thinking about to build the technology to do that today." And he said something like that in the hearing. Now, Commander Fravor is speaking from an informed opinion. He has a classified job right now that would give him access to that understanding. So, when you have somebody like Commander Fravor see that, chase UFO, say it's not ours, it's not any known technological nation, they've said it's not Russia, it's not China. Remember, 2019, we had over 100 UAP swarm, 10 Navy warships in a 95 to 100 mile circle.

• 14:29Speaker 07

  George and I broke that story, reported on it, right? Then, we get Senior Chief Wiggins, and he's telling you, as a, what, 20 years on that, you said 20 years you've been doing that?

• 14:40Speaker 06

  Yes, 20 years as an air controller.

• 14:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, so he's what I call a reliable witness, right? And a trained witness. So, when he talks to me about it, I'm like, damn, you were there. I recognize your voice. I know other people on the ship, too. It's no secret. You get these intelligence agencies coming to me and George and asking, hey, can you connect us with the people on the ships? They have a log of everybody. They don't need to call me and George, these reporters, to find out who was on the ship. They're trying to get in through false friendship, right? So, why would they put pressure on anybody who's just telling the truth, right? So, here's Senior Chief Wiggins. He described to you, seeing an object lifting what appeared

• 15:26Speaker 07

  to be out of the water, glowing. He got curious. There's a part I want you to tell. And then he goes to the screens. Now, none of these people, not all of these people on the ship are hip to the UFO thing, right? Senior Chief is dancing real lightly. He's like, what do you think that is? And somebody said, oh, I think it's a plane. I want him to tell that story, but he goes, hey, go look at that plane. Tell me what you see. Will you tell that story so people can define the difference? Because what people online say is, even though they can't find it on a tracker, and it's not a plane, they try to just dismiss you, dismiss your reporting, dismiss what you said in Congress under oath. And I'm curious, did you like push people on the ship to like identify the difference between plane and the Tic Tac?

• 16:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, so as an operations specialist, I went to operations specialist school in Virginia and damn neck back in 2003. And part of good old eighth school, I see some of my Navy folks here, when you go to the school for OS, you have to learn silhouettes. In a lot of rates, you have to learn silhouettes, and you just have to know that's a DDG, this is, you know, a prowler, different aircraft, different submarines. You have to learn this when you're first coming into the Navy in a lot of the schools. I've been seeing different silhouettes of air, surface, and subsurface my whole career. So, looking at that day and understanding that there were no plumes, there was nothing I was able to see on that

• 16:54Speaker 06

  day, when I described to my fellow watchstanders, we saw the Tic Tac. And so, some of the skeptics onboard the ship were like, oh, well, that's just another, you know, commercial comm nav radar, as we would call it. It's just a typical commercial navigation aircraft. So, once all four of the Tic Tacs disappeared, I think maybe 30, 45 seconds pass, and a commercial navigation pops up on my radar, and I say, okay, zoom into that on there. And you see the plume, you see the wings, you see the nose, you see it perfect. And so, I turn

• 17:35Speaker 06

  around to them, and I'm like, and I was like, you guys are now one of me. You're one of me, so you have nothing to say. And they were like, oh. They kind of kindly sat back down on their station and was like, I don't know what to say now. Yeah.

• 17:49George Knapp?

  So, eventually, the video gets out, and then your name gets out, and Jeremy invades your life and won't leave you alone. Is that about how it went?

• 17:59Speaker 06

  I was okay with that. I was perfectly okay, yes.

• 18:01George Knapp?

  And then, you know, the Navy was incredibly supportive. You even got permission to talk to us unweaponized. You got permission, it was okay to be interviewed by me for KLAS. And you got nothing but positive feedback, correct?

• 18:15Speaker 06

  Yes, yes. I was surprised at first, because this is something I never tackled before. I didn't think that the Navy would be okay. I think they would want me to focus, just focus on the mission, on what I'm doing at my current command. But once the information got to my commanding officer down the chain of command, they were helpful. They asked me, is there anything you need in your transition to going to Washington and testifying? So, shout out to the Navy and everybody who's...

• 18:46George Knapp?

  Yeah, props to the US Navy. Anyway, active duty Navy chief is going to testify before Congress in this internationally televised hearing, and they're okay with it?

• 18:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, they were perfectly okay. They helped me. They actually helped me. I didn't have to pay for anything. So, they helped me on my flight there, and I was very thankful because they knew what we were doing was going to be for the good of those that needed to know.

• 19:14George Knapp?

  Well, the Navy also stepped up big time in where this story goes from here that you have not heard.

• 19:22Speaker 07

  Oh, shit. Okay, here, that's a, I mean, I'll make sure I do this right. But yeah, so, there are many, you know, there are many ways in which this can go. When I call people, when I called Jeff, when I called you Jeff, and I said, will you testify in front of Congress, you know, his response is, fuck, yes. I've been waiting for this day. Let's fucking go. That's not always the response, you know. I have to like, they tell me they need people. So, I called Senior Chief Wiggins, and we talked about it. We really did, because you become friends with people when you've been in the trenches, you've been in the war, you know what they're against, what they're up against, you know. And, God, the courage, man, because he's a single father, you know, he's a career military guy. How

• 20:07Speaker 07

  much longer you got?

• 20:09Speaker 06

  Next year. It'll be 25 years retiring.

• 20:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 07

  So I know when I call people, I'm asking them to risk all of that. And it sucks. But I, you know, I ask them, I don't tell them, I ask them, will you do it? And man, there was no hesitation, there was thoughtful processing, I'll say, from Senior Chief. But there was no hesitation, right? And I think that's like a build upon thing when you have Commander David Fravor, right? It gives you courage, gives you strength. Navy as well. The Navy was so helpful, and I'll just tell you behind the scenes process when I'm talking with the national security people trying to entrap me, saying, "You can't record this conversation." I'm like, "I'm fucking recording it." And they try to stop people from testifying.

• 21:02Speaker 07

  Well, I'm not talking to the Congress people. They're amazing. Rep Luna, Rep Burchett, Rep Burleson, you know. And they kick ass. Now, this is not political. There's a lot of Democrats involved who you don't know. That's the thing. You get loud voices and you think, "That's it. Oh, man, there's an army of whistleblowers." And there is an army within Senate, within the congressional system that want to fight for this. So Senior Chief and the Navy, man, they, I think you told me, let's see if this is true. You're like, "He asked me, 'Do you want to testify?'" And you're like, "Yes." And then he's like, "Okay." But it was like, they were asking you, "Should we support you?" And then they did. That's not the way it is with like, Air Force and other agencies for other people. Is that what you were talking about, was that they really supported him?

• 21:47Speaker 07

  Navy has always been at the center of this. Bob Lazar, all the way back in the day, Office of Naval Intelligence, you'd done been told. But here we are today, Navy has always been supportive, and I want to thank the Navy officially for that.

• 22:00George Knapp?

  What I was, yeah. What I was leading toward was something a little more sinister. So, but there actually has been sort of a dark side that raised its, raised its head in dealing with you. Do you want to get into that or not?

• 22:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, um, it, there was a bit of a pushback. It wasn't necessarily from the Navy. There was, I was contacted to...

• 22:29Speaker 07

  I mean, it was, it was not from the Navy, and this is a very important distinguishing mark. And when you say a little pushback, I call it coercion. That's going to be my word.

• 22:39George Knapp?

  Intimidation.

• 22:40Speaker 07

  Intimidation. But, so we're talking active Navy, and he testifies and tells his whole story. Now, I got a bunch of calls, bunch of calls after he testified. But actually, he got some too. And so, it's up to you if you want to talk about it, but I think it's fine, it's all true, so go for it.

• 22:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, um, there was a, yeah, it was, there were some coercion there when it came to, uh, afterwards, uh, being asked to, I guess, go into a SCIF and pretty much tell the same story that I've told already, um, by Arrow. So, I was contacted, um, by Arrow, and it was more of a coercion thing and telling me, uh, "We need you to come into a SCIF." And I politely declined, a lot of stuff going on. As Jeremy mentioned, I'm a father that takes care of his kids, it's just me and my kids, college student, active duty, like, I have too many things going on. So, uh, I politely declined, and it didn't end there because, uh, they didn't give me

• 23:41Speaker 06

  the opportunity to politely decline, and they contacted, uh, my chain of command and pretty much compelled them to force me, uh, to talk about everything I've talked about already, uh, but in a SCIF. And I kind of understood what they were getting to. They wanted to have what I was going to say in my testimony, uh, under classified document, under classified audio, so then that way they can tell me, "Well, now you can no longer talk about what you've talked about because it's now classified." Um, and, uh, at one point, I was actually told that, uh, my captain called me into his office and, and kind of told me that he spoke to, uh, someone in Arrow that told

• 24:24Speaker 06

  him, uh, "Well, if we can't get him to talk with us, uh, we may need to compel the Department of War, Pete Hegseth himself, to force him to talk to us." Uh, actual, so that was actually told to me. Uh, of course, as an active duty service member, that sounds scary, that's as high up my chain of command, other than the Vice President and President. Um, so, I didn't know what to do.

• 24:51George Knapp?

  So, get this, Arrow, which is, you know, under Sean Kirkpatrick, it's like the Roach Motel, UFO info goes out, but it never comes out. It goes in, but it never gets out. So, Arrow, uh, you know, which doesn't have a great reputation, starts calling him up, "Hey, we'd really, hey, old buddy, old pal, let's talk about that Tic Tac incident and that video, and can you come in and testify in a SCIF?" And, and he says, "No." And they keep asking him, and he says, "No." And they go to his captain, and they ask him, and he says, "No." And so, they threaten, "I'm going to call Pete Hegseth and force you to do it." Is that, Pete Hegseth is going to...

• 25:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's the actual words that they used, uh, to my captain. And my captain told me, me and my captain have a very good work relationship, uh, and so he said, "You know, I'll, I'll let you know that." You know, that's what they told me, because he was himself curious and said, "What if my Senior Chief doesn't want to? He's not having to, does he?" And he said, "No." But, "What if he doesn't want to, in all honesty?" And they said, "Well, we'll, we'll get Pete Hegseth if we need to, to compel him to talk."

• 25:52George Knapp?

  But here you are, you got 24 years in, you got a year to go, and you're going to have retirement benefits, and they're threatening to get the Secretary of Defense that, to, Secretary of War, to, uh, to go ahead and intimidate you.

• 26:03Speaker 07

  Let, let me drive this point home. So, Arrow and whistleblowers are people that come forward, they're supposed to be protected, right? So you're seeing Arrow go to an active Senior Chief and tell his boss that if he politely declines again, that we're going to get the head of the Department of War to force him to go into a SCIF. Now, why would they do that? Now, they're, you know, they're supposed to protect and support whistleblowers, that's what Arrow says, "We're open, right? We're open." So you understand, what they are doing is they are harassing, this is my words, not yours, okay?

• 26:46Speaker 07

  They are harassing and intimidating a Navy, active Navy officer who testified in front of Congress so that nobody fucking else talks to you. That's it. That's what they're trying to do. And, and it is disgusting, I wish it was illegal, and that's what you're hearing right now. And we haven't talked about that yet. We're talking about this for the first time, I didn't know if you wanted to talk about it. Personal, right? But that's what they're doing. Now, Arrow turns over a new leaf, new director, great, everybody high fives in a photo on Twitter, great. The, the point is this, why? Why are they doing that? Why, when Arrow was stood up by Congress, are they trying to intimidate the witnesses?

• 27:30Speaker 07

  And it gets a lot worse than that. Tomorrow, you're going to hear something about somebody that was, they're trying, they tried to pin treason on one, and they tried to pin counter espionage and American assets on another. Whistleblowers, they're supposed to be protected. That's why George and I brought them in. So, that is my take on Senior Chief Wiggins' situation. Luckily, he doesn't give a fuck. He just decided to tell you? Yeah, go ahead, give him applause. I, I just want to drive that home, that these guys, um, and hopefully, men and women that

• 28:14Speaker 07

  come forward soon, they're putting it out there because it's the right thing to do. As simple as that. You, you actually said that to me at one point. I said, "Why are you doing this? Is it the right thing to do? Do you remember that?"

• 28:25Speaker 00

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• 29:09Speaker 00

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• 30:29George Knapp?

  So, uh, this weekend, what we're gonna try to do in this, in this session and in what's to come, is to try to give you some perspective. So, everyone here, you're all likely the crazy UFO nut in your family, right? You're the, you're the UFO nut in your office, that guy won't stop talking about UFOs at the water cooler, they're driving me crazy, you're, you're that person, all of you here. So, you're watching all this UFO-related news that's breaking out, and you're probably thinking, "Wow, this is, this is going great. Media's covering it, we're having, you know, nightly newscasts and podcasts, and everybody's talking UFOs, President Trump issued a directive, "Release the files." Things are going great. Yeah, yeah, at the same time, things like

• 31:10George Knapp?

  this are happening behind the scenes to Alex and to other witnesses and whistleblowers that we'll be talking about this weekend. And in the main time, in the meantime, you know, I li, I'm always the glasses-half-full guy, right? I live on the sunny side of the street.

• 31:24Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 31:25George Knapp?

  Very optimistic, I'm kidding. Um, you know, so, a presidential directive is issued, "Release the files." Great, and we've had two releases of these files so far. Great. Uh, these are not only lay, low-hanging fruit, this is fruit that's been laying on the ground rotten for a while. It's like, uh, seventy percent, seventy percent of the stuff that's been released, the files, has already been public. Uh, videos were, several of them we've released, and several of them were in the, uh, the movie, "Smoking Dog."

• 31:56Speaker 07

  Hold on, hold on, this is so funny, he always calls the mo, the movie "Smoking Dog" because he's got it in his head from "Skinwalker Red," it's called "Sleeping Dog."

• 32:04George Knapp?

  Right. But, you know, it looks good, and, you know, media's covering it, podcasters can't keep up with it, there's so much UFO news. In the old days, you know, like when I would walk to snow, to, to school, thirty miles in the snow uphill both ways, you could catch all the UFO news in one journal of the, the, the MUFON journal that comes out a month, every month, and, or one conference, and you've got all the news. And now, you can't keep up with it all, there's so much. And in a lot of ways, that's good, but also, you know, you're being snowed a little bit, these, the files and stuff that's being released, they've been released already, the videos are being released with no analysis, they're, they're specifically stripped of any metadata, you can't analyze it all, there are reports

• 32:45George Knapp?

  on these things, that are background reports, that are not being released. Here, have fun, you know, um, and it, there's no, it's a presidential directive, that's great, that's the good side of it, but there's no executive order, there's no declassification authority behind it. We keep being told, "Be patient, the, the good stuff is coming." Good, well, I'll be patient, you know, I'm also very patient, as I am optimistic, but, um, which is not very much. Uh, let's see it, you know, uh, so, it's nice to be enthusiastic about the topic, but really, there are powerful forces who don't want this stuff coming out. And we might get more low-hanging fruit, we might get more files, more videos, but are we gonna get the stuff that you want, the stuff that you want? There's no such thing

• 33:29George Knapp?

  as disclosure without the crash stuff, the saucers, the bodies, the reverse engineering. I seriously doubt we're ever gonna get that, I seriously doubt.

• 33:39Speaker 07

  And I think we can provoke it. So, so, I, I think that people, we are much, applaud for that, we're gonna fucking provoke it, right? Let's fucking go, let's fucking go. So, I, I think we are much smarter than we are given, well, definitely, I look dumb, but like I, like people underestimate me, which I love, right? They underestimated you here. People are starting to realize that seven of the eight videos that I show in "Sleeping Dog," this is a real situation, by the way, I'm like, George and I bury shit in the desert, we forget where it goes, though, if you ever ask me, I don't know where it is, but we bury shit all the time in the desert. I mean, I'm the muscle, but, you know.

• 34:22Speaker 07

  If you look at the movie, people are starting to realize that that was a provocation. The gov, call and response, our government is starting to release to you footage we already put out, they started to release to you shit they knew was coming out, because it was in the movie, seven of the eight. Now, we did get some extra stuff with a pilot report for instantaneous acceleration, most important UFO video that I have seen with my own eyes that is public to you now, okay? Instantaneous acceleration, Syria, 2021, UAP. But people are picking up on it, you're picking up on it, you're realizing that they're provoked, that if you look at the file nodes and file structures of what George and I have obtained

• 35:06Speaker 07

  over the years, we don't know, some of it might be bullshit, that's why we haven't put it out, we're looking at it, we're just looking at it, and in the movie, you see some of it, but that's real life. I want you to understand that, that's real life. George and I have to decide, is this gonna move the needle, is this appropriate to put out, will it hurt national security? We have seen some shit, you guys, and you should be able to see it too, but it's not on us. Every time we release a video together, it puts our sources at risk. What if you can see a reflection of a face inside of a, a, a black screen? What if you capture the yellow bar at top and you see how somebody accessed something? I

• 35:46Speaker 07

  don't wanna put whistleblowers at risk anymore. It's, the onus, new word I learned, onus, is on our government, who said they're gonna give you transparency on UFOs, presidentially mandated. So now it's time, let's push, because ultimately, David Grush went up there, and he said, "I have direct knowledge of crash retrieval, reverse engineering, exploitation programs, and biologics, bodies." So what are we talking about? Videos of like, lights and mushroom-shaped things that shoot off to the side? Show us that stuff, let's fucking go. And if you watch the movie, you'll see that there are file nodes that talk about

• 36:27Speaker 07

  biologics. So I don't know where this is going, but I do know we're on the ride together, and what I really wanna know is what you wanna know, because I have a sickness, my curiosity is weaponized. It is time for Q and A, and you got Senior Chief Wiggins, for the first time, at a public thing, who will answer your questions in detail. I'm putting it all on him. Come up to the mic, ask some questions, because I know the out time, twenty-nine after the hour, so let's go. Where is the mic getting? I don't know, where the fuck's the mic?

• 37:11Speaker 07

  Go be weird over in the corner, that's so bizarre, yeah. Um, but you have a cool hat, darling, I'm loving that. My mom had one of those, she was gonna come to contact in the, or she was gonna come to, uh, Oregon with me, and, uh, she couldn't make it. My mom's like eighty-one, she got all into UFOs, now she was wearing a hat like that, I said, "Come ride in the parade," but she couldn't make it. Okay, here we go, serious question, don't tell me your life story, ask Senior Chief a question. Or George. Spotlight. I know, when they don't turn on your mic, it's super weird. Is this thing on? Can you hear me? Let's light this candle.

• 37:56Speaker 07

  I appreciate you being here, I have a question for, um, Jeremy and George, if that's okay. Um, at the beginning of this talk, you, uh, referred to the Tic Tac, and it's like, definitely, NHI, um, technology. No, I said it's not Lockheed Martin. Okay. I said it's not Lockheed Martin, that you're being lied to, that we didn't make it, China didn't make it, Russia didn't make it, so don't mix my words, let's go. I apologize. So, um, you guys are on like, my Mount Rushmore for UFO journalism, and I thank you for your work. Um, but then, like, Ross is up there too, but Ross is saying,

• 38:39Speaker 07

  "I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the Tic Tac is Lockheed Martin." Uh, he walked that back. He did? Oh, then, all right, well, I- I'm gonna be straight, he walked that back, ask him, call him up, let's call him. He walked that back. So how does he know? So, so I'm not pushing on anybody, I'm just saying, when you say something- Yeah. Provide evidence. I have Commander David Fravor in front of Congress, telling you from a position of knowledge, it wasn't ours. So I think he walked that back. He's a great journalist, man, he's going after it, he's dogged, I fucking love that guy, I'll drink beers with that guy and a kangaroo any day, I love him, but, when you say something, you gotta be able to back it up, right? Yeah. So what is your question?

• 39:24Speaker 07

  Um, that was the preface to my question, is, who do you point to, uh, colleagues in the field that you have on Mount Rushmore, and are you able to call out people that we should just kind of not be listening to, and like, naming, naming names? Yeah, I can do that, that's super rude, but I can do that. But I mean, I like, it's like, my mind is open, it's been for years- Yeah, I'm not as, I'm not as socialized as George, George is super nice, and he's like, "Jeremy, you're not gonna have any friends if you keep, um, saying this shit to people," and like, but yeah, we can do that in like, a private conversation, I'll tell you, because you asked, no problem, I'll tell you who to avoid, but here's who I trust. I trust George Knapp- Yeah. -because of his legacy, because he has corrected himself when he's wrong- Hell yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 07

  -because he's fucking fought for it, because he's been right ninety-nine percent of the time, and like, uh, but, but here's the deal, let me be inclusive, because I can feel George's fucking zen right here. Um, every single one of you that wants to know the truth, if you're not a bitch, and you're not lying, okay, then, then I'm with you. You get it wrong, I'll pick you up if you fall down, you pick, I'll fall sometime, you pick me up, but like, we need different people. Uh, I went on Chris Ramses, everybody said I was high, because I had glasses, motherfuckers had a migraine. So, so, so here's the deal, every single person, I see UAP Gurb right there, I don't trust you completely yet, but I like you, I like you. Um, every single person has a role to play- Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 07

  And it, the, they, tell me if I'm wrong, the diversity of everybody fighting for this, as long as they're fucking doing it real and trying to get to the truth, I support you, I salute you, let's fucking go. But if you say something, you better back it up, or try. That's it. Who do you listen to? Use your own barometer, bro. I'm not, I get it wrong all the time. Just trust yourself- Yeah. -ask for the receipts, I'm obsessive about that, I give my friends receipts for like, if I park the car. Like, just do it, man, we're all in this together, like it or not, often not, go. Do you, did I answer your question? You did. Okay, then move along. Is there, is there anybody specific that you should say, "Let's turn the volume down on them, they're getting too much airplane?"

• 41:37Speaker 07

  Uh, you mumbled, but you're a nice guy, and we're gonna drink beer later. Go for it, sir. Hey, good afternoon. Ask them a question. My question's for Chief Wiggins, um, of all the different imagery we've seen from Navy platforms and others, are, are you reasonably confident that there's a whole lot of other multispectral data packages that we have not seen and will- Probably never see that has enabled the Navy to understand a lot more about what they're seeing than they're generally saying, even non legacy program Navy personnel and institutions.

• 42:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, when I look at, yes, I think there is a collection of what the Navy has, but like myself during the time in February 2023, they just don't know the right way that they're supposed to put it out, you know, for those that have been in the military or those that are still in, there's, there's been nothing listed on how we're supposed to report all the way up and eventually to the American people. So I think if it does exist on servers somewhere on Navy ships or, or buildings, they, they, the Navy probably needs to find the proper way to release that data.

• 42:46Speaker 06

  I don't think we have a proper listing or a proper instructions on how to do it yet. We just don't.

• 42:51Speaker 07

  Okay, thank you.

• 42:52Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 42:53Speaker 07

  Good question, bro. Chief Wiggins, thanks for your service. We applaud you as a fellow Las Vegasian and this directed to Mr. Knapp, given the recent land grab around Tecuhabeak, when is your story coming out about that? Because it happened in 1995, you, you know, reported on it then, but where is it now? And what can we do about it? I was all set to do the hike last week, but.

• 43:19George Knapp?

  Yeah, I was, I was out there two days ago and so probably next week we'll have a story about it. But here's the story is that I'll take you back in time first in 1984, Area 51, US Air Force seized 89,000 acres of public land around Groom Lake. It was land that was public, you could camp on it, hike on it, whatever. One day, the next day you come out with no notice at all. It was illegally seized. There's guys with machine guns or M1s or whatever, and you couldn't, it was just took it. And then a couple of months later, there was a congressional hearing to get permission for it. In 1994, it happened again. There was a place called Whitesides Mountain, which I actually climbed at one point to

• 44:01George Knapp?

  look down on the basin and Freedom Ridge, and they took that land as well. And then as of three weeks ago, they seized 26,000 acres of land, public land, that's 25 miles away from Area 51. The BLM is the one that did it. Suddenly one day there's signs that says you can't go up there anymore. It's temporarily closed while they try to go through the legal procedure. I mean, there's Native American petroglyph sites, people hike there, they camp there, they do off-roading, there's hunting, there's a national, it's called the National Basin and Range, a monument, a permanent monument that was carved out by Harry Reid as sort of the last great legislation that he ever enacted, and they've taken a half of that.

• 44:43George Knapp?

  So, yeah, it, the public got no notice, there was no hearing, there's no environmental review, nothing whatsoever. BLM is pretending that it's for the public's own good because people could get hurt hiking up there, which is, you know, how many people die in Yosemite every year? They don't close it down because people fall off of, off of that, that mountain up there or fall into the Grand Canyon. So, yeah, we're working on a story about it. I think it's outrageous. I don't know if it could be stopped, but we're gonna try.

• 45:09Speaker 07

  It smells like a setup already because they, they arrested that Polish guy for the photographer, but they didn't put him in jail and it was all planned that they needed, because, you know, I was up there a couple of months ago. Now you're telling the story, she got a question, but check this out, it's dude, my, my dude. We're on it. You just, George Knapp is on it, he's been on it for 40 years, he fucking just went out there, I was calling him at Area 51, it was fucking crazy, let's go.

• 45:31Speaker 05

  Hello, gentlemen, I just want to say that you have reached the housewives officially. So thank you to you, I'm here representing all the ladies. But my question's for Senior Chief Wiggins, I'm wondering if your disclosure has inspired any of your fellow colleagues in the military?

• 45:55Speaker 06

  That's a very good question. Thank you for asking that. I have a good friend, retired Admiral Tim Gallaudet, he has reached out to me, for those that know Tim, also testified, yeah. He's reached out to me and told me that, yes, in fact, due to the hearing that we had last year, that other service members are starting to reach out to him. So, yes, absolutely. So I, I'm happy, yeah. I'm excited and happy to have opened that door for those service members that see something and want to say something.

• 46:32George Knapp?

  By the way, these guys form a bond, you know, the witnesses, Jeff and, and Dylan and, and Matt and Alex and there are a couple of others, a small group, when you go through this stuff and you know the kind of pressure that you're under and that your life is never going to be the same again after coming forward and the people know your name and your face, they form a really good bond and it's, it was, it's been great to see it happen.

• 46:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's so cool, man.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  That's cool.

• 46:57Speaker 07

  Thanks.

• 46:58Speaker 05

  And best sightseeing, UFO sightseeing in San Diego, I'm from San Diego.

• 47:02Speaker 06

  Well, if you can, if you can get on a cruise ship and go out to the coast of San Diego, maybe you'll see something like we did.

• 47:09George Knapp?

  Channel Islands, yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 47:11Speaker 07

  Just look up, it's so easy.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  I try, man, I try.

• 47:16Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  Thank you. Jeremy, George, Chief Wiggins, thank you. You're fucking heroes. Thank you. You too, Jeff. But I am angry, I am pissed off at how we're being treated.

• 47:31Speaker 00

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• 48:32Speaker 01

  Streaming October 30th on Paramount Plus.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  You're having a midlife crisis.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  I'm not ready for that.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  He's back.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  I'm older, I'm wiser.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  And sharper than ever.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Things are gonna get messy, but if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Dexter Resurrection, new season October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 49:02Speaker 07

  These, the government is meant to, you know, not really tell us what to think, but give us some guidance, give us some analysis, all of your tools, what is it telling you these objects are? Why are you treating us like children? Why are you supporting Chief Wiggins testifying and then trying to take his ankles away so he can't even stand up? But you said something important to the first person that asked the question, you said it's not Lockheed, it's not Russia. So I want to know, Jeremy, and importantly, you said it's not necessarily NHI. So I want to know, who is it? Are we talking about Uganda? The Knights of Malta? Who are we talking about? Name them. Hey, man, um, most, I, I always assume I'm not the smartest person in the room. That means I'm super dumb because all of you, right, are on the case.

• 49:47Speaker 07

  I don't know the ultimate answer. George taught me that, right? The first day I met him, man. I don't know, but, but I do know what's eliminated and the process of elimination is important. I would suspect that there's a technologically advanced civilization that has been here a long time. I'm just gonna put the cards on the table. I suspect, I can't prove it, there's a technologically advanced civilization that has been in contact with humanity since the beginning of recorded human history and our government absolutely fucking knows about this. When I say our government, like certain groups within the government, and it is being held

• 50:30Speaker 07

  back from you and it's bullshit. And you're a big boy and we never asked for daddy to hold back the truth of reality. And I don't know what that truth is and I learned that from George. I don't know. And it might be strange, but I'm down. Let's fucking go.

• 50:48George Knapp?

  I, I think the default position for our government, the people who work on this stuff, they think of it as ET. It says it in, in, in documents and reports and things, they assume it. But I, I think, I'm not sure they really know for sure. And it's more likely that's more than one answer. As reporters, I, I don't want to lock myself into it. I've said aliens because that was sort of a placeholder term for it, but I don't know what aliens mean. Is that extraterrestrial, interdimensional, ultra-terrestrial, time travelers, all the above? Jacques Vallée was here, the first time I met him in 1990, he said, look, if they can manipulate space-time in ways that we have seen them do, they can be ET and interdimensionals

• 51:32George Knapp?

  and extraterrestrials and all the above and maybe something more exotic. It's not us and it's been here a long time. Our government knows it's not us, but whether there are factions of the government that know for sure who they are, even if they've got bodies, it doesn't necessarily tell them where it's from. So, you know, as a reporter, I don't want to lock myself in and say aliens. Our government plays that game all the time, this word game where they say, oh, there's no evidence of extraterrestrials, there's no evidence of space aliens. It's just a game, you know, it's, it's a, to avoid what evidence they do have. It's evidence that it's not us, it's technology that we don't have, so I don't know what the answer is. Sure, I hope I live long enough to find out.

• 52:13Speaker 07

  You, you will. And, and by the way, it's, it's, you are being lied to and you have a reason to be angry and you should be angry, but channel that anger not into violence, but into, just make them comply. Capitulate's a new word I've been working on, make them capitulate. It worked. We used it in Sleeping Dog, it fucking works, man. So just make them give you the answers. I don't know how you do it, go and make your podcast that you do, just make some noise, man, because you are being lied to and you should be angry. I'm angry. When George realized he was being lied to about this topic, he got angry and that's the first step is getting angry. Then you gotta get focused and I'm fucking focused.

• 52:58Speaker 07

  Let's go. Thank you, guys.

• 53:06Speaker 06

  Thank you three for your time and being here and everything you've done. It's been your inspirations to me as I've gone on the Hill and been to the last hearing and really fought for truth and you know, I'm not fucking giving this up, you know, and I know we have to keep putting pressure and so, you know, I'm volunteering with Citizens for Disclosure. That's been a really great grassroots program, but I would love as we kind of merge our strategies to kind of be one big...

• 53:38Speaker 07

  We're never gonna be a big happy family. Everybody in fights. We're human beings, man.

• 53:41Speaker 06

  And I think that's valid, but I think, how can we, like, in the ways that we can unite?

• 53:47Speaker 07

  Do your thing, do it well, don't stop, never fucking relent.

• 53:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, just keep going.

• 53:53Speaker 07

  Yes, sir.

• 53:54Speaker 06

  But how can we come together, like, in this...

• 53:56Speaker 07

  We're not gonna come together. That's human nature. Everybody's gonna try to say, can I trust him? Can I trust...I'm the worst. Can I trust this guy? Can I trust that guy? Don't worry about harmony, man. Just focus, fight, do your thing, and if you're a good dude, people will support you. Simple as that.

• 54:12Speaker 06

  Okay. What about the citizens, the movements that the whistleblowers are building?

• 54:17Speaker 07

  Well, look, man, the whistleblowers, we are collecting. When I say there's an army, there's an army.

• 54:23Speaker 06

  Yes, sir.

• 54:24Speaker 07

  There's a gigantic number of people you've never heard from, and you will see numerous people here this weekend with me and George, and I think that's powerful and I think that's beautiful. But, you know, look, also, we forget our history, we repeat the problem. So I don't know your organization.

• 54:38Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 54:39Speaker 07

  But some other gentleman asked me who to avoid. Oh, there are people to avoid here, absolutely. They have stolen from people, they have used your curiosity, they have weaponized it against you, and they've tried to take advantage of you. And I'll give you those names. Let's sit down, have a beer. I'm a loudmouth.

• 54:54Speaker 06

  Let's do it.

• 54:55Speaker 07

  Right? Because maybe you don't know you've got a snake in the grass, and George can tell you, and I can tell you, because he's lived it before. I have no problem telling you. This is not a popularity competition, because I've already lost, apparently, if you read Twitter like my mom.

• 55:08George Knapp?

  Yeah, there's no unity anywhere. I mean, you know, I remember at the starting, going to the first MUFON conference in 89, I'm thinking, geez, these people are nuts. They all hate each other. What it needs is, you know, a good reporter, I'll have this whipped into shape in six months. And, you know, that was 38 years ago. You know, the Bigfoot people all hate each other. The ghost hunters hate each other. The Loch Ness monster hate each other. They all hate the UFO people. So, and it's probably that way on UFO or Twitter, X, math people. Math students hate each other. I mean, I think there's so much anger in every field, and looking for unity in UFO world is never gonna happen. And maybe that's a good thing.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  Well, thank you, I appreciate your time. I believe in democracy, and I believe the best way to make a change is to participate, and I encourage everybody here to listen to these guys. They're definitely leading with a lot of wisdom and tenacity, and I'd like to continue to support you in any way we can, so thank you very much.

• 56:04Speaker 07

  Just be loud, that's how you support, be loud. Do your own thing, man, I'm with you though. You got Senior Chief Wiggins, guys, ask a question, don't yell out. Ask your question to Senior Chief.

• 56:15George Knapp?

  Sorry, Jeremy, I got one for George again. George, in the broad field of ufology, what's one area or under-researched case that you think is deserving of more attention and why? Well, I can give an area. It's the abductees, the people who had contact, direct contact. What happened to that? Where is it? You know, whatever this intelligence is, and it's here among us, there are thousands, tens of thousands, maybe millions of people who've had direct face-to-face contact, physical contact, or at least psychic contact. That seems to be the heart of the mystery to me, much more than crashed saucers and dead bodies. And I just think it was a really hot, central focus of the research for a long time, and

• 56:59George Knapp?

  then it's kind of just drifted off as we were focusing instead on cover-up stuff and intimidation of whistleblowers, which are all justifiably so, but the search for crashed saucers has kind of taken over. And I think the one-on-one contact and human experience with these beings is really the heart of this thing.

• 57:17Speaker 07

  We have four minutes and 19 seconds remaining in this room, but I do want to tell you something, because then he'll have to hold to it, which is that at 6:30, George is gonna be over where they got the sleeping dog t-shirts, and we'll be there for 30 minutes. So if you don't get your question, come talk to us. We have four minutes and probably, or three minutes and 50 seconds now, so let's ask a couple more questions.

• 57:38Speaker 06

  Thanks, guys.

• 57:39Speaker 07

  Senior Chief is here, I'd ask him something, although you might see him again if you're lucky.

• 57:43Speaker 06

  Hi, I do have a question for Senior Chief Wiggins, so thank you for testifying. When you saw the anomalous object for the first time, did that affect your worldview? Or how did that change what you believed previous to that experience? Thank you. Yeah, so it did change my worldview, because this was my first time experiencing something that I thought I've seen from both of these gentlemen on the internet, and so to see it live and to be what I didn't know, part of, you know, history, it changed. It changed a lot, the way that I see things. It changed just my perception of physics, it changed my perception of science.

• 58:25Speaker 06

  How can I see something take off that fast and I have no knowledge, I don't think the world has knowledge on how that actually happened? So, yeah, it completely changed the way I see things. I've already saw things in a different way already, but it opened the aperture. It was, it had me understanding, or I guess not understanding, what else is possible.

• 58:50Speaker 07

  Hey, I got a question for Senior Chief Wiggins. Let me preface it by, so you don't think I'm some asshole skeptic, I'm an experiencer too. That's okay, it's okay to be a skeptic. It's not okay to be an asshole, and you have two minutes and 11 seconds. Got it. So, I have heard that there are these systems we have that can create essentially these plasmas in the air, and they can sort of, the purpose of them is to sort of spoof-rate our systems, throw off target locks, or whatever. You said you saw four of these objects that were all sort of moving in unison, and when Fravor talked about his experience, he was talking about how the Tic Tac was like jittery, which to me sounds like it maybe it could be like a ball of fire in the air. It was not jittering the way you're describing. I'm sorry, I know him, that's not the fact.

• 59:34Speaker 07

  Okay, but do you think there's any possibility that maybe it's not Lockheed, but it could be some sort of system, either by our government or another terrestrial government, essentially something mundane, meant to trick our systems and have us lock onto something that's not really there? Thank you.

• 59:50Speaker 06

  So, that is a good question. One thing I learned from one of my old captains is he would always ask me and say, if I gave him a report, or if I gave him anything, he would ask me, what's the value added? He would ask me every time, why are you giving me this? What would be the point of you handing this to your captain? So, I really applied that to almost everything that I do now, and I would ask myself, using that question, what would be the value added behind having some sort of system that would do exactly what you kind of described, right? What would be the value added for me to be onboard a ship and to witness something, but it's from my government or from a foreign government, just to spoof and throw us off the coast of San Diego for absolutely no reason?

• 1:00:34Speaker 06

  I don't think that would be anything any government would care to do, this is my own personal opinion. And to add to that, to have the level of sophistication when this thing is taking off, just to be something to throw me off the sniff, to throw the Navy off the sniff, I don't think there would be any value added.

• 1:00:52George Knapp?

  Is there a spoof technology that would both, you could see it visually and show up on radar?

• 1:00:57Speaker 06

  No, yeah, on top of that, you know, we don't, nothing that we have even onboard ships would give me the kinematics to tell me altitude, to tell me IFF, for those that know their airside. It wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to have that, because each individual aircraft has their own specific IFF.

• 1:01:16George Knapp?

  You know, it takes courage for him to step forward and speak before Congress. I mean, I think probably there were people that told him it's not a good idea. I mean, there are risks to his career, he's a single dad, he's got kids, he can't put his pension or his job at risk, and you never know how things are gonna go. And as we now know, since he came forward and told the world what he had seen, there have been repercussions for him. Why don't you fill us in on that a little bit?

• 1:01:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, so, so many people, you know, come to us, George, and just last week, I think it was three...

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• 1:02:18Speaker 07

  ...of military professionals that, you know, kind of reported to you and me about some of their in-combat sightings and how it's picked up on multiple systems, and that, you know, there's even footage involved. And a lot of these people just don't want to come forward, you know, there may be, one individual's 23 years in, and is finishing within a year, and doesn't want to kind of get involved. They've seen, they've all seen people, for stupid reasons, they've said, just a grudge... You know, people's whole careers ruined. So it is a big thing to go up in front of cameras, in front of the public. You know how many people that we've talked to, but also that we've vetted through Congress, that we've put through the process that weren't chosen. And then they

• 1:03:01Speaker 07

  kind of become exposed. At one point, there was a leak to Arrow, because I asked that nobody that I bring forward, that when we go through this process, choose them or not, should be acknowledged to Arrow in any way. They don't want that. Well, one after the other, started getting calls from representatives of Arrow with almost each of the hearings. And, you know, one of the representatives called me up, said, "We got a leak." I'm like, "I know. I know we got a leak." So it is really putting yourself out there to do this. They want to tell, everybody that testified, they want to tell their little sliver what they know. And that includes Chief Wiggins. But it is a risk, and he knew that before. And he did think about it for a few days. But his eventual answer was, you know, "It's

• 1:03:45Speaker 07

  my duty to do so." It happened. I saw it. It was extraordinary. We're talking about transmedium craft that aren't on any normal systems, coming up out of the water, sinking up in the air, and then shooting off altogether. And I wish we had that part of the footage. It's like the curse, George, of UFO studies, right? Is that the best footage, what you want, seems to be elusive at times.

• 1:04:09George Knapp?

  But the footage that has been made public is pretty darn good. It's pretty amazing. And there's been a lot of analysis done on what it could be, what it is not. Our buddy Marek, who's done a lot of investigation and analysis of it, has done a pretty good defense of what it is and what it isn't. And it's not so easy to dismiss. And of course, four Tic Tacs leaving together, that's a fairly significant case and a fairly significant incident. I think what's happened to Chief Wiggins now is intimidation. There's no other way to look at it, you know? He's already said what he knows. Arrow threatening to go to Pete Hegseth and demand that his commander bring him forward and force him to testify under oath, to go back there to Arrow to speak to him, sounds like intimidation to

• 1:04:53George Knapp?

  me. He's already told the story. He told it to Congress. He's told it to us and a couple of other interviews. And why do they need him to come forward? What is it that they want? I suspect, as you do, that they want to force him to say something about who might have recorded the video and how it got leaked to the public and go after him. I mean, in the year since that hearing, it's pretty clear, we know who Arrow is. There's no question about who Arrow is and what they have done and what their true interests are. Dr. Kozloski, the new head of Arrow, is a far cry better than the predecessor. But it is what it is. It's a tiny agency inside the Department of War that's supposed

• 1:05:34George Knapp?

  to investigate its boss, which is preposterous. We also know in the year since then, what ODNI is and what they represent. I mean, you and I were called to go meet them the day after that hearing. And we met up with them, and we thought it was going to be, "Ooh, this sounds really good. They're going to investigate UFOs, get to the bottom of it, find out where the goodies are stashed." We know that now that that's not going to happen, that they're very much like, excuse me, very much like Arrow in their approach to this topic. We know the CIA is where it's always been on this topic, so it's sort of the heart of the cover-up. You know, so in a sense, what's happened in the year since then has revealed who the players really are, at least some of the key ones.

• 1:06:14Speaker 07

  Yeah. And when you bring witnesses like Alexander Wiggins, and he does testify, it is a layer of protection. If you recall, George, we immediately called Congress, and they will throw down, they took it super seriously, that if an active service member has testified, they've given their full reports to everybody internally, externally, that they're not going to be sidebarred and taken out and tried to be entrapped, brought into a skiff, so that everything that they talk about is now classified, and they can't talk about it anymore. And that is the fear. The fear is, from a lot of these witnesses, not just those witnesses, that once they do that step, that everything can be reversed, classified, and they can't talk about it anymore. So that was a concern for Wiggins, and Congress wasn't having any of it. They were ready to launch and remain ready to

• 1:06:59Speaker 07

  launch if he does get any more pushback about, you know, providing testimony.

• 1:07:05George Knapp?

  Kudos again to the US Navy and to Chief Wiggins' commanding officers, who stood their ground and have defended him, and are not going to force him to go sit down and talk to Arrow and go under oath with them. And, you know, they, as you mentioned earlier, the Navy has been on the forefront of actual transparency and being truthful, which is pretty rare within the Department of War these days. And thank God that he was in the Navy and not in the Air Force, because his life might be very different. I don't know what's going to happen to him. I know he's still a little bit nervous about the remainder of his Navy career there. But I think he's in pretty good hands compared to service members and in other branches of the service.

• 1:07:48Speaker 07

  Yeah. And his account is important, because like the Tic Tac UFO event in 2004, there was footage. That was Commander Chad Underwood filmed that. And so having that footage with the action reports and everything, and direct witnesses, it's a powerful case. You know, we might not always get all the footage. And this reminds me, George, I just talked with another military witness that was able to view the jellyfish UAP full footage. So the footage of where it went in and came out of the water unsolicited, talking with a military contact that, you know, I've kind of been talking with for a little while. And separately from their experience, what they saw, they affirmed

• 1:08:28Speaker 07

  to me that that footage exists, that they saw it too, and that it's not presented in the archive through Pursue. And that's so frustrating. We know that footage exists, and it just was eliminated or deleted from what was set up public. So it's a disingenuous thing, and it really bothers me. One day, I hope we get that public footage, but today is not that day.

• 1:08:51George Knapp?

  Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that. I should have mentioned also, you know, Alex has had repercussions from his testimony. The other witnesses, and the behind-the-scenes people who were there, whistleblowers who came forward to us and that we made public, who were nervous about stepping into the public arena. Dylan Borland, he's taken some grief of late. And Matthew Brown, who has taken all kinds of grief, had break-ins at his house. They formed an organization called Vanguard to protect other whistleblowers. We know Jeff Nusseteli has also come forward. And now those guys are doing other interviews on other platforms. They're invited to UFO conferences and are kind of spreading their

• 1:09:34George Knapp?

  wings and sharing their message with a broader audience. And I'm so happy how things have worked out for them. But of course, again, there's a cost that comes with it.

• 1:09:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, we get to hear more of their philosophies. You know, when we broke the story, we kind of go just for the main points. But recently, Matthew Brown did an interview on the Jesse Michaels podcast, and it's cool, because he gets to extrapolate. You know, we're in a different time since he first came out. So I think that's essential, that you keep talking, you tell what you know, but you also tell people what you think. And so it's really cool to see a lot of those interviews. I hope that they, and they will keep talking. I hope Vanguard is very successful. People should look that up. And what they're trying to do for whistleblowers is give people the support systems that they simply didn't have, which we lived through, seeing all that, bringing them forward from anonymous all the way up to, you know, at least with Dylan, you know, in front of Congress. I

• 1:10:27Speaker 07

  hope one day Matthew Brown is able to testify to the American public, you know, through a congressional hearing. We got to hear, you know, kind of his experiences through his words and through these interviews. But it's a different thing when you're under oath and you're up there testifying to what you know. And he has other things I think he really would love to tackle, would love to tell, you know, other things he was exposed to, to some degree. So, I don't know, man. I think we just keep pushing forward. We keep with all of these things. We do more hearings, more releases, just keep fostering the transparency on all of this.

• 1:10:59George Knapp?

  Yeah. So September 9th is the one-year anniversary. Either raise a glass out there, folks, to what's happened in the year since then, or do a mental toast or whatever. Just keep it in your mind, because we know that there's more good stuff coming real soon.

• 1:11:14Speaker 07

  All right, man. Well, you and I got a trip to take, so it's going to be exciting. We'll report on that after we're back, okay?

• 1:11:19George Knapp?

  Yeah, it's going to be a good week coming up.