For Colin O'Brady, Infinite Love Fuels Human Potential

Returning for his fourth appearance on the podcast, Colin O'Brady is here to elaborate. Longtime listeners are well acquainted with Colin's story from burn victim to boundary eclipsing adventurer. Even if you're new to the podcast, chances are stumbled across his story by way of his appearances everywhere, from the Today show to the Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon. If you missed our previous conversations (RRP#207, RRP#235 and RRP#439), they're an excavation of Colin's origin story growing up on a commune. How he survived an almost lethal burn accident that left him unlikely to walk again. His phoenix-like transformation into a professional ITU triathlete and Olympic hopeful. And how he morphed into a mountaineer with the audacity to attempt such incomprehensible feats of adventure athleticism is well worth the time invested. Today we pick up where our ongoing series last left off. Note: we recorded this conversation many months ago on January 18. My initial plan was to share this episode on February 9. However, on February 2, National Geographic published an article entitled The Problem With Colin O’Brady - a 7,000 word take down that accuses Colin of embellishing his accomplishments. It’s an upsetting piece that left me confused. I’ve known Colin for many years. I’ve spent quite a bit of time with him and his wife Jenna. I consider him a good friend. And myself a decent judge of character. However, in light of this development, it also felt tone deaf to release the podcast as scheduled. So I put a pin it. Two weeks later, Colin published a thorough, 16-page point-by-point refutation of the National Geographic article. I thought it only fair to provide Colin an opportunity to comment on the allegations. So, on March 8 (still pre-pandemic), we sat down again for a subsequent conversation to discuss the controversy particulars. Today I share both conversations. First, the original interview we conducted in January. It's an exploration the hows and whys behind The Impossible Row. The intention behind his new book and the process of birthing it. And a deep dive into human potential and the infinite love that fuels his. Immediately following this initial exchange is an additional 30-minute discourse specific to the National Geographic scuffle appended to the audio version of the podcast and viewable as a stand-alone piece here & below. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube -- where we separated the main podcast conversation and Colin’s thoughts in response to the article into two distinct videos. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. As Colin and I are both fond of repeating, we all sit atop mountains of untapped potential. May this conversation help you tap yours. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Colin O'Brady?

  The biggest thing I want is when people set down this book, The Impossible First, it's not to call me up and be like, "Wow, Colin, that was so amazing across the Arctic." I want people to set this book down and go, "Wow, you did something that people said was impossible, now I can go do that and take that into my own life." These reservoirs of untapped potential reside inside of all of us. And I say that the muscle that's the most important to any of us is the six inches between our ears. It's within our minds, it's what we can create, and I think that that really dictates a lot of this. I am giving this wisdom, I'm sharing my story, in the hope that someone takes The Impossible First book, sets it down, and starts off on their own Impossible First.

• 1:37Rich Roll?

  That's Colin O'Brien, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  Greetings, earthlings of the apocalypse. My name is Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome. I hope this finds you well, safe, mentally and emotionally sound, intact, as we collectively and quite delicately tread these uncharted waters. And listen, if you're not feeling it, if you're depressed, if you're having a crisis of motivation, I get it. It's part of the human condition. We're all trying to figure this out. Give yourself a break. Be gentle on yourself. My guest today is Colin O'Brady. Colin is returning for his fourth appearance on the podcast. You can catch him on Episodes 207,

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  235, and 439, if you missed him the first time around. Longtime listeners, of course, know Colin well, but even if you're new, there's a good chance you may have heard of his story, or are at least familiar with his boundary pushing feats of adventure. But for the few who might not know who I'm talking about, Colin is a former Yale swimmer turned professional triathlete, turned elite adventure athlete with a slew of world records to his name. Among his palmares, Colin is both the youngest and the fastest to complete the Explorers Grand Slam, which basically entails scaling the highest mountains on

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  each of the seven continents, and treks to both the North and the South Poles, breaking the previous record by a quite astonishing 53 days. Then, about a year and a half ago, Colin became the first person in history to cross the continent of Antarctica solo, unsupported, and unaided, pulling a 300-pound sled 932 miles in just 54 days, a feat he dubbed "The Impossible First," and I got more on that in a minute. But in his latest adventure first, this past December, Colin and five crewmates became the first and only

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  human-powered ocean row across the Drake Passage, which is a treacherous 13-day, 600-nautical-mile excursion from the southern tip of South America to the edge of Antarctica. That accomplishment coincided with the release of his book titled The Impossible First, which is essentially his memoir that chronicles his incredible life from his triumphant recovery from a tragic accident, all the way through last year's landmark Antarctica crossing, and the many lessons he learned along the way about human potential, possibility, and the power of infinite love. I got several important things that remain to be mentioned

• 4:40Rich Roll?

  about the conversation to come, but first.

• 4:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, Colin O'Brady. So, if you missed our earlier conversations, Colin's origin story is really quite something, from his unique upbringing on a commune, his experiences swimming for Yale, how he survived an almost lethal burn accident that left him unlikely to walk again, and then this Phoenix-like transformation into a professional ITU triathlete and Olympic hopeful, and how he then morphed into this mountaineer with the audacity to attempt such incomprehensible feats of adventure athleticism. Good news, you can read all about it in his new book, The Impossible First, which, along with his recent Drake Passage

• 5:34Rich Roll?

  Crossing, forms the focus of today's conversation. One important note, worthy of mention, we recorded this conversation quite a long time ago, back on January 18th. Seems like forever ago at this point. And my initial plan at that point was to publish the episode on February 9th. However, on February 2nd, National Geographic published an article called "The Problem with Colin O'Brady," which is essentially this 7,000-word takedown, sort of character assassination, that accuses Colin of embellishing his accomplishments, among other things. It's

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  an upsetting piece. It left me confused because I've known Colin for many years. I've spent quite a bit of time with him and his wife, Jenna. I consider him a friend, a good friend, but it would have been utterly tone-deaf and irresponsible, I think, to publish the podcast as scheduled in light of that development. So, I put a pin on it. Two weeks later, Colin published a very thorough, point-by-point rebuttal of the National Geographic article, and I thought it only fair to provide him an opportunity to comment on the allegations. So we sat down again for

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  a second conversation on March 8th, still pre-pandemic, for a subsequent exchange to discuss all of this. So this is how this is going to go. First up is the original interview we conducted in January, completely unedited, followed immediately by the subsequent exchange, an additional 30-minute conversation discourse on the aforementioned issue, which is appended at the end. I hope that makes sense. You can also watch it all go down at youtube.com/RichRoll, where we decided to separate the main podcast conversation and Colin's thoughts

• 7:37Rich Roll?

  in response to the article into two distinct videos. So that's it. Here we go. This is me and Colin O'Brien.

• 7:49Rich Roll?

  Well, great to see you again. We're here for round three. So excited to talk to you.

• 7:54Colin O'Brady?

  I think it might be round four.

• 7:54Rich Roll?

  Is it four?

• 7:55Colin O'Brady?

  I think it might be.

• 7:56Rich Roll?

  One, two, three. Is it?

• 7:58Colin O'Brady?

  I'm honored.

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  Four. Wow. So I told you this beforehand, but I woke up this morning and thought, you know, Colin's been on a bunch of times. We never run out of things to say. You're such a great guest. It's going to be awesome, no matter what, but you're always so quick to talk about Jenna and what an integral, amazing part. She, you know, she plays in this whole thing as your partner, you know, in every aspect of what you do. And I thought, well, let's, let's hear from her directly. So I set it up with an extra mic and had it all ready to go because I'm pretty sure every other time I've seen you, you've, you guys have been together. So I had no reason to think that she wouldn't be coming, as I knew she came to LA.

• 8:41Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, we are pretty much always together, but she hopped on a plane last night.

• 8:48Colin O'Brady?

  To go get our dog and bring him back to Jackson Hole. So.

• 8:51Rich Roll?

  So now I feel bad that I didn't think of this a couple of days ago.

• 8:55Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, I'm bummed because I think hearing from Jenna is the most important.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  Well, Jenna, I always have a chair for you here and we'll see how this goes today. If it goes well, then, or maybe I'll just bring Jenna back without you.

• 9:08Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, I think that that would be.

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  I'm done with you, dude. We've talked enough.

• 9:11Colin O'Brady?

  A good conversation and you know, if this goes well, we'll just delete it and we'll just come back.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  I did hit play today though. As far as I can tell right now it's recording, so that's good. Congrats, man. So many, so many things to congratulate you on. The book, the 12 year anniversary of Surviving the Burns, which you just passed that date a couple of days ago, right?

• 9:34Colin O'Brady?

  Same as the book pub date.

• 9:35Rich Roll?

  Came out this past week and also the Drake Crossing, which we're going to talk about as well.

• 9:40Colin O'Brady?

  Yes.

• 9:41Rich Roll?

  That's, that's a lot, man.

• 9:42Colin O'Brady?

  It's been, it's been a busy period of time, but yeah, it was coincidental that, as you know, books, books published on Tuesdays. That's a thing apparently.

• 9:49Rich Roll?

  I don't know why that's the rule, but that's the way it works.

• 9:52Colin O'Brady?

  I didn't know that. It's my first book, but it turns out all books are published on Tuesdays. And January 14th happened to be a Tuesday this year, which coincided with the 12 year anniversary of my burn accident.

• 10:02Rich Roll?

  Was that coincidental or when you looked at dates, did you work that out with the publisher?

• 10:08Colin O'Brady?

  Completely coincidental. We actually originally, the pub date was February 4th, which is the day after the Democratic primary in Iowa caucuses. So I thought that might not be the best date. So we moved it to January 28th. But then when I was in the middle of the row, kind of momentum was building towards the finish line of that. And the publisher decided to move it up to the 14th and Jenna said, okay, we could do that. Just so you know, it's a really, you know, special day in Colin's life. So it was actually completely coincidental. But as one of my more tragic moments of my life, probably the most tragic on December or January 14th. It's nice to have a beautiful rebirth of creativity and art to put into the world on that day. So nice to have that memory going forward.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  So a year ago, around this time, I bumped into you in a hotel lobby. You had just gotten back from your solo expedition across Antarctica and you were doing a little press around it. You hadn't even gone home yet. And now, one year later, you've got another crazy adventure under your belt and a book to celebrate it. And I look at the Drake Crossing and I'm like, that's the greatest book marketing trick of all time. Right? Not only do I have a book coming out, I actually have something amazing that I can tell all these media people. So there you are, back on the Today Show, back on, you know, Jimmy Fallon, doing the rounds, the whole thing. You just came from New York.

• 11:28Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, it's been certainly humbling, the interest and excitement in all of this, and just really grateful to be able to have this book out in the world. And I'm sure we'll get into it, but you know, the book's called The Impossible First, but really, my biggest return on investment for this book, and I've been saying this, but I really mean it, which is I'm grateful people that want to hear my story about my life. And as you mentioned, it's really not just about mine, it's about Jenna's, it's about overcoming obstacles, it's hardships, it's how we built this, it's our heart, it's our creativity, it's all this. But the biggest thing I want is when people set down this book, The Impossible First, it's not to call me up and be like, wow, Colin, that was so amazing, you crossed Antarctica. I want people to set this book down and go, wow, you did something that people said was impossible. Now I can go do that and take that into my own life. So

• 12:08Rich Roll?

  That's the goal, man. That's the beauty. That's the poetry in the whole thing. How was the writing process for you?

• 12:15Colin O'Brady?

  Man, you know, I, people think, you know, you've set these world records, you walked across Antarctica solo, now rode a boat across Drake Passage. But I would say, writing a book may have been the hardest thing I've ever done, or certainly up there. It really challenged me to, you know, flex a different muscle in the mind, the creative process. And also, I've been, I've been journaling since I was a kid. So I've been journaling, you know, back into my early teenage years, maybe even before that. So I have all these journals and video recordings, audio recordings of my life. And so it was cool and cathartic to go back through that. But it also kind of brings up different things when you're writing, you know, like I said, it's not just a memoir of this, you know, 54 days of crossing Antarctica. But as I'm in Antarctica, and I'm having all these vivid memories in my mind, I kind of flashback to all these, you know, important moments through my life.

• 13:00Colin O'Brady?

  And so to sift through that and to, you know, decide on which ones to share and how to bring those to life and, you know, maybe have deeper conversations with my family and other people that experienced those moments, like, you know, my parents divorce and different things in my life. Ultimately, I'm really proud of how it came out, but it was a challenging process and a beautiful one.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what you get from most people.

• 13:22Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Rich Roll?

  That write a book. I mean, David Goggins said the same thing. I mean, it certainly was my experience writing a book.

• 13:28Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Rich Roll?

  It's, it's a lot harder, I think, than people think.

• 13:31Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 13:31Rich Roll?

  Um, and we had, we, we share another thing in common, which is that we had the same editor.

• 13:36Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, we did. Shout out to Rick Horgan.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  Rick Horgan.

• 13:39Colin O'Brady?

  What a guy. What a guy. And I say, Rich, I'm grateful. Rich's name is on the back of my book.

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  I know. Where's the, wait, the book, it, one of you guys go grab, it's in the, it's in the container. I thought I had it sitting here. Well, one of you guys go grab it. So we have it sitting out here. Yeah, that's the most important thing. My blurb on the back cover.

• 13:54Colin O'Brady?

  The most important thing is that Rich Roll's name is actually on my book. But no, shout out to Rick Horgan. We both worked with the same editor that you worked with many years ago. Complete coincidence that's the case, but what a guy.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  He did a great job on my book. He certainly made it a lot better and he devoted a lot of time to it.

• 14:11Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Rich Roll?

  I think he's a really great editor.

• 14:13Colin O'Brady?

  Super talented to roll up the sleeves and kind of get in there and kind of live that side by side was, I'm grateful to have him and amazing that we both had him work on both of our books.

• 14:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And how's it doing? I mean, it came out Tuesday. It's killing it on Amazon. I checked the numbers.

• 14:27Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 14:27Rich Roll?

  I'm sure you have. You're very, here's the thing about you, straight up, dude. You're like, super friendly, you know, jovial guy, conversational, charismatic, but you're a stone cold killer. You are, man. There is no way that you do what you do without having like the eyes on the prize, man.

• 14:48Colin O'Brady?

  I appreciate, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna choose to take that as a compliment.

• 14:50Rich Roll?

  That was what I wanted Jenna here to talk about. I was like, come on, tell me what it's like when, you know, back at home when no one's looking and you're plotting. It's like, this, this dude is competitive.

• 15:00Colin O'Brady?

  Well, I mean, yes, I guess I'm gonna choose to take that as a compliment. There is a, I'll tell you, the book writing process is interesting in that, um, you know, there's times and as you know, kind of, I do think that I orient towards the positive and towards the positivity in that. And as we dive into the roll up the sleeves in the book, I'm working with my publisher, Rick, and the whole Scribner team over there, um, you know, is helping me with the editing process and, you know, choosing the photos that we choose and all this kind of stuff. And there was times in the work session, there, there would be some tensions or, it's not negative, but just implicit, you know, collaboration type of tensions. And a couple of times I turned them and I was like, You hired, you, you bought this idea of a book of a guy who walked across Antarctica by himself. You did realize that there was like intense, overly hyper-focused element.

• 15:45Colin O'Brady?

  I mean, they were like, they were like, yeah, I guess that makes sense.

• 15:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:48Colin O'Brady?

  So yeah, of course, there is the duality of that, but I think that it-

• 15:51Rich Roll?

  So you had to flex a little bit here and there.

• 15:53Colin O'Brady?

  Not flex, but I just, I just care. I know that some people, I mean, I'm not, I can't say for anyone specific, but I imagine there have been books written where people haven't cared as much maybe, or have said like, oh, I want to write this. I want it to be good or whatever, but I'm doing 10 other things. And I'm not like hyper-focused on it. For me, if I was ever going to sit down and write a book, I really wanted, you know, I cared about every word, every sentence, every-

• 16:14Rich Roll?

  It's the story of your life.

• 16:16Colin O'Brady?

  Exactly.

• 16:16Rich Roll?

  This is the chronicle of your life. I think also, a lot of authors, particularly first-time authors, don't realize that they have any power in the, in the conversation. Like, well, these are the publishers. They know. They say you should do this. So I guess that's what you're supposed to do. And they end up with a weird cover.

• 16:32Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Rich Roll?

  You know, something that doesn't work or, because they didn't feel like they, they could actually assert themselves and be part of that conversation. Of course, the publisher is going to have final approval over, over all of this stuff. But, you know, I found that if you pick your battles and, and you're strong about the things that are most important, that, you know, you can have a say. You should have a say.

• 16:52Colin O'Brady?

  And I think that the thing to me ultimately that I'm most proud of about this book-

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  Here's what you need to see, right there.

• 16:58Colin O'Brady?

  There it is. Ritual's name on the back cover of the hardcover.

• 17:01Rich Roll?

  Forget about this part.

• 17:02Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, it's just right there on the back. No, but the thing that I think was the most important to me in this creative process, that might've been initially at odds with the publisher, but I think ultimately everyone is very pleased, including, you know, Rick and the whole team are really pleased with the outcome, was on the surface, it was like, wow, you crossed Antarctica solo. There is a genre of books that are about edge of your seat adventure memoirs. And I, by the way, I love that genre. I'm very well-read in that genre. I read voraciously and like, I've, I've read them all. I love, I love that category.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  The crack hour kind of-

• 17:34Colin O'Brady?

  Hundred percent. Or, you know, in, you know, Endurance, the, you know, about the Shackleton book. I mean, there's so many in that category that again, I love, you know, Touching the Void or these books, that chronicle like an epic, intense like thing. And my book, The Impossible First, of course, is about that. It uses Antarctica as this, you know, sort of through line of the entire chronology of the book. But to me, that is not the book that I wanted to write. The book that I wanted to write in the last chapter of the book is titled Infinite Love, which might not be what someone might expect out of a book about, you know, a male guy doing this hard thing alone in Antarctica. And so there is these gritty elements and the vulnerability of the intense things that

• 18:16Colin O'Brady?

  I went to, but it's woven through with, you know, relationships. There's a lot of people who have read this book, who, you know, female audience, you know, you know, single mother from wherever, saying like, hey, I don't really read the genre, but this touched me because of these universal elements of love or compassion, or there's a whole piece on entrepreneurship and how we actually built behind the scenes, built this. And so to me, that was a little bit at odds initially with someone saying like, we wanted you to write a book about a hardcore adventure. And I don't think the hardcore adventure audience will be disappointed by this book, but I think there is just a much broader reach to it, which was super important to me because that's the elements, the human elements that I deeply care about sharing.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, one of the conversations that I had at length with Rick when I was working on my book, something he pointed out to me that I still think about all the time, is the difference between inspirational and aspirational. And he, you know, he's like, listen, you know, LeBron James, you know, Michael Jordan, they're like inspirational. Like you can read about them, you can be inspired by their example, but that reader can't aspire to be that person. And he's like, you're, he was talking to me, he was like, you're aspirational. Like you've done some really hard things, but you, people can see some version of their own story in your story. And so the narrative really, that was kind of like the architecture around, you know, that kind of informed how I helped

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  to tell this story. And I see, like, what you've done is much crazier and more difficult and all these world records and all of that. But there is, you know, with kind of overcoming the obstacles and the burn, you know, like all the things that you've gone through in your life, there is a, there is a thread of that, I think, that, that makes you relatable. To an average person, so they they're not going to go across Antarctica. But I think in reading this, and you did a phenomenal job, you can see, you know, aspects of your own self and your shortcomings and your victories in the way that you tell the story. And I think that that's the launchpad from which people can find their own, you know, inspiration to

• 20:17Colin O'Brady?

  A hundred percent. Achieve things in their own lives. A hundred percent. And like I say, you know, it's a you started off with mentioning Jenna. You know, I always say it's a shame that my name is the the name on the front or cover of this book because it's not just my story. It's my story. It's Jenna's story. It's a story of my family. It's, you know, the ups and downs of, you know, divorce in our family, but ultimately this amicable, crazy Ohana loving family. Um, but, you know, from the outside, potentially broken look, you know, into that. And there's a lot of different elements that are just were important for me to share, which is just kind of my truth and my journey. And hopefully that connects with people in a way, even if it's not direct to, like I said, the walk. If you want to walk across Antarctica by yourself, I highly recommend it. I have got lots of tips and a piece of advice. I'd love to love to see some

• 20:56Rich Roll?

  This is not a how to book.

• 20:57Colin O'Brady?

  But this is not a how to book on crossing Antarctica. And, you know, you talk about like the creative process a little bit. We've been talking about, and one of the concepts that we talk about in there is this idea of, you know, Jenna and I sitting down with a whiteboard, you know, mapping out our idea. And we would talk about in the book as from whiteboard into reality. And one of the questions that I've got from so many people, including, you know, people who have reached out from hearing me on this podcast, it says like, I have a big idea. I want to do this incredible thing. I want to run across America or I want to, you know, could be anything. I want to just take a trip around the world with my best friend or something like that. And I get I do get this how to question, which is like, so how did you do it? Were you just born with a trust fund? Do you have like a ton of money and you can just do whatever you want? So I'm like, you know, a quote unquote, real job. And in this book, and I do my best to answer those people's questions.

• 21:43Colin O'Brady?

  I love it when people reach out and I try to respond as many people as I possibly can. But in this book, we dive in this process of Jenna and I literally, you know, bring you to this room. And so, you know, one bedroom apartment, we've got a whiteboard on the wall. We're writing our ideas and I want to set a world record, want to start a nonprofit and inspire kids like, you know, want to reach people in this way, this. And then like the bare bones facts come down. It's like, but you need a few hundred thousand dollars to do this. How do you even start a nonprofit? All this red tape or whatever. And the book also brings you through. Pieces of that journey of us, you know, taking our idea from the whiteboard and the struggles and the challenges and the thousand doors that slammed in our face of people saying, "You're not going to do this," and our interior dialogue of us doubting ourselves and ultimately

• 22:24Colin O'Brady?

  being able to come together with her and I and this sort of just perseverance through not just the Antarctica crossing itself, but the perseverance of actually taking an idea into action. And that's the piece that I do think as many as others, but certainly one of the pieces that I think connects widely in that, "I don't care who you are, you're listening this, I know you have a big idea inside of you. I know you have your own impossible for something you want to achieve, something that's out there, but maybe in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "Oh, I don't know, maybe I'm not the right person for it." And if I listened to the first 999 people that told me that too, we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. And the book kind of brings through that process. And like I said, hopefully someone sets the book down and goes, "You know what? I'm going to actually go after that impossible first now because I believe I can do it."

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  But doing it through storytelling, not through, "Here's the 10 steps."

• 23:09Colin O'Brady?

  No.

• 23:10Rich Roll?

  It's like, it's like, "This is how we did it. Let me walk you through like the nonlinear, ineligent, you know, two steps forward, five steps backwards."

• 23:18Colin O'Brady?

  No, the book is not a how-to. It's not a how-to prescriptive book. It is a memoir written in prose and storytelling the entire time, but can read between the lines of just our story. And hopefully people take inspiration from it. Like I said, it was a humbling process to be asked to write a book and I'm grateful to be able to share it with the world and hopefully it is well received.

• 23:40Rich Roll?

  And now it's in the world.

• 23:41Colin O'Brady?

  It's in the world, just like that.

• 23:42Rich Roll?

  I was watching the Today Show and a clip that you shared after doing your interview, you're outside and you're signing books and you're kind of like shaking hands with the people, you know, the people that kind of congregate outside the show. And I was like, "Wow, that's so crazy." Like, I was just thinking, it was only a year ago when I ran into you in New York and you were taking meetings on the book. Like, it wasn't that long ago. And like, look what you've done in a year.

• 24:05Colin O'Brady?

  It was through a process.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  To make that happen. It was, it's crazy.

• 24:08Colin O'Brady?

  I know you're interviewing me, but I actually would like to interview you for a second.

• 24:12Rich Roll?

  It's about you, dude.

• 24:13Colin O'Brady?

  No, no, no. When we were, so you said, so Rich and I,

• 24:18Colin O'Brady?

  We've been friends for several years now, but we coincidentally, you were in New York City, I was in New York City when I got back from Antarctica. And you had texted me and you said, hey, congratulations, this, see you in New York. You're probably slammed, but where are you? And we text each other, we realized we're actually in the same hotel room on like two different floors. We run into each other in an elevator coming down. But then, the, what was amazing is a group of my friends had asked to kind of come together and kind of hear the story after the press, the media. It was not like a press event, it was just like my friends in the townhouse apartment, kind of a fireside chat, totally Q and A, before I had done a bunch of interviews or been asked about this story a million times. And you came that night.

• 25:01Colin O'Brady?

  And that was, first of all, it was just really special to me that you came and sat there with my, you know, group of close friends. And I was just, it's one thing to talk to a roomful of strangers, which I do a lot in my public speaking, but there's something about the intimacy of the actual people in your close community who you have deep connections with, asking questions. There's, first to me, there's an added level of vulnerability to that. And a question I guess I have for you, since I'm interviewing you now for 10 minutes, five minutes. I guess you are. I'm only permitting this so far. Yeah, which is, I'm just curious, for me, the anchor point, the anchor point for me writing this book, actually was writing that I did myself and journaling that I did in the immediate aftermath.

• 25:43Colin O'Brady?

  So before I even left Antarctica, and I'll call it in through that first week or so in New York, not to say that my brain or anything was like polluted from the authenticity of the experience, but as you know, with many things that you've done in your life, like you get a little bit further away from it. And so I kept coming back to come to those anchors, and particularly some of the writing that I did, just myself and my journal, alone on the ice before I even got picked up and flown away. But I reflect on that moment, that room that you happened to actually be sitting in, as one of the...

• 26:13Colin O'Brady?

  I guess really pure moments of that entire experience for me to be able to sit there and share in the way I did. And not that I don't think it's pure now, but there was just something about, I guess that it was just, I was still hadn't slept in my own bed at that moment. It was a wild moment.

• 26:29Rich Roll?

  I have a vivid memory of that, that evening. And, you know, a couple of things. First of all, yeah, you, it was literally right after you completed this. So.

• 26:38Colin O'Brady?

  Been alone in the wake of for how long? And now I'm in New York City and I'm like deer in the headlights.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  Straight to New York City. You hadn't even gone home yet. You still had all your gear. And, and yeah, so I show up at this townhouse. And I think these were people that you had gone to Israel with.

• 26:53Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, on the reality community and Israel and a couple of other things. Yeah.

• 26:57Rich Roll?

  And so it was a small group of people gathered around you and you began to share your story. And my recollection of that was that I was so impressed with how, how much command you had over the story already, like it had just happened. But you rifled, you were telling these stories and you were kind of relating the experience, but you had such a command over what was important about it to convey with everybody else. And I've seen you give your keynote that you go around and do frequently now, in the wake of that. And it's not that different than what you delivered on that night. It's pretty much the same thing. Yeah. So I just remember thinking like, wow, he already has a grip

• 27:41Rich Roll?

  on like, how to tell this. Not only is do it, like, he already knows how to tell the story. Like, sometimes it takes a while for you to figure out, like, okay, well, what is it about this that people are interested in? And you're gonna have to play around with it in front of a live audience to figure out what those important things are. And the more you tell it, the more you, the more it starts to inform you about what's, what's interesting and what's not interesting.

• 28:04Colin O'Brady?

  So I have the piece of writing that I was referring to, I'll go a little bit deeper there, because I think it's actually pretty interesting. 10 years ago, it's not something I've really, I'm sure I've ever talked about this publicly, but 10 years ago, a buddy of mine named Kip, it was 2008, I was living in Chicago at the time, he wrote a handwritten letter to seven guys from his life. He was, at the time, I was in my early twenties and he was about 10 years older than me. So he's in his early thirties, around the same age that I'm 34 now. He might've been a little younger than I am, 31, 32, probably. And he writes a letter to seven of his friends. Handwritten letter and he says, um, hey, one you each of you don't, you don't all know each other, but each of you are a really close person from my life of a different phase of

• 28:46Colin O'Brady?

  my life. It was like a college roommate. It was like the guy he sat next to at his first job. Um, I have a really new friend of his. He had just moved to Portland at the time and like we had become fast friends. We'd only known each other about six months and there were seven of these guys. And he said, but as we spread apart in our lives and we start having kids and get married and go these other places of our life, I realized we're going to see each other less and I'm afraid I'm going to lose touch with some of you, but I love you dearly. So I'm going to write you a handwritten letter about what's going on in my life. And at the very end of the letter, he sends, and I'm actually getting goosebumps telling this story because it's the nicest story I've ever told. Um, he, uh, he, he writes a handwritten letter, a note at the bottom. He goes, if anybody wants to send, um, a letter to the rest of the other guys, here's everyone else's address.

• 29:28Colin O'Brady?

  You don't know each other, but if you want to send it just out in the world, send it. Here's a CD.

• 29:33Rich Roll?

  To his other friends.

• 29:34Colin O'Brady?

  To his other friends.

• 29:34Rich Roll?

  That these people don't necessarily know.

• 29:37Colin O'Brady?

  Don't necessarily know. Everyone like maybe knew one of the other people because they're his group of friends. So maybe you've met a friend of a friend, but they're spread out across the country. I'm living in Chicago at the time, not near any of these people. I only knew Kip and one of the other guys. And I was like, this is a cool idea. And so the next month I penned this a handwritten letter, put a CD in the mail of the music I had listened to. It dates the story because it was actually a burned CD. Um, I didn't send like a Spotify playlist or something. Um, and I send it back out to these guys. What ends up happening is every single month, one of these guys writes back a letter and it ends up forming into this group. It's been through a few phases, but it's this group that we now call the fellas. And what happened is we added a few couple, a few

• 30:18Colin O'Brady?

  other people over time and it's a locked in group, but I honestly highly recommend anyone doing this because it's been one of the most meaningful things in my life. And I'll bring this back to why I'm telling this story. It's such a random tangent. Um, but is that there's 12 of us guys in this group, the fellas. And a lot, not everyone has even met everyone, although we do try to get together once in a while. But once per month, we each have a month now because there's 12 of us. My month is always December, which is why it's pertinent to the story. And we've made a lifelong commitment to one another. And the lifelong commitment is, we are going to each share. We've digitized it. It used to be handwritten, but we have, we have a locked online forum blog. You can't see it, but we have a password to sign in.

• 30:58Colin O'Brady?

  And we each send once per month, a life update, or a poem, or just something about our life. With the idea being that over the course of a full lifetime commitment of sharing vulnerably in kind of a men's group format, that this, you know, pieces of our life will form this long form tapestry as we go through life together. And now it's been 12 years. And so we've seen people get married, have their first child, you know, career ups and downs, success, heartbreak, you know, losing parents, you know, people getting sick, whatever that is, or just joyful celebrations. Sometimes, you know, someone will just write for their month like, yo, I've been like really into cooking and these are the five recipes that I'm cooking. It's not always like this, you know, really intense thing. But my month was December.

• 31:42Colin O'Brady?

  And I finished my Antarctica crossing that I wrote the book about on December 26th, so the day after Christmas. And I'm sitting alone in my tent for a few days, waiting to congratulate Lou Rudd on his crossing, as well as waiting to be picked up in the airplane. And I sit down there and I realize it's my month for the fellas post. And I've always been, it's a super vulnerable forum to be able to share openly with this group of guys. And so I sit there and I write this piece that says, the six things I learned the most, the most important six things that I learned about in Antarctica. And the top of the line, as I mentioned it already before, was infinite love. This connection to this resonant energy that I experience out there and this peak experience

• 32:23Colin O'Brady?

  of just infinite love and compassion and empathy and joy and this flow state that I experienced. And the next was the importance of Jenna in my life. And the next was the importance of family. And I was so grateful to this forum that I had with these guys, because although I've been journeying avidly throughout my life, it was just like, it happened to be, it was my month and it was the due date and I'm really big on not missing deadlines. And so I sat in my tent and wrote my vulnerable fellas post out to this other group of 11 guys, the 12 of us total. And that piece of writing, although it's not explicitly in the book, actually formed the bedrock of what I wrote this book about because it was just my truth and the purity

• 33:06Colin O'Brady?

  of that moment and the experience that you and I had together in that townhouse, just, you know, a week later, whatever it was. And the stories I was telling, not, and I didn't think I put the dots together at the time, but the stories you told me, heard me tell vulnerably were derivative of taking that moment to actually kind of, I don't know, sit with it and think about it and write.

• 33:26Rich Roll?

  Right. Distilling out, you know, what was most important about it for you.

• 33:30Colin O'Brady?

  And what's beautiful about it for me was that, I guess, why it's a sacred piece of writing for me that ultimately poured my heart and soul into the book itself was that the forum, the format of the fellas is this sacred space where none of the writing, it's not narrative. It's not like, let me show you the highlight reel of my life. It's not, it's not necessarily implicitly bad or good, but it's raw. Like, the point of the fellas and what Kip did when he sent this letter out to all of us in 2008 was unknowingly, he opened up this space. And a lot of these guys aren't guys that are, you know, maybe, you know, in men's groups or doing men's works or doing ceremony or stuff like this. You know, there's a pretty like, you know, normal cross-section of, you know, amazing human beings, but you know, as you know, as men in our culture oftentimes pretty guarded,

• 34:13Colin O'Brady?

  and it's become this really sacred space. And the posts are never shared. It's not like anyone could ever see it. So I know that the writing that I put down there was just coming, was pouring out of my heart with purity. And it was so important for me, as we talked about, the editors and different people in the room or other people sharing ideas, I think your book might, should be about this, or that, or the other thing, to have this anchor point to go, I wrote this down in the pureness and the authenticity of this experience, and I want to make sure that the end product, which I'm proud it does, is reflective of those emotions.

• 34:47Rich Roll?

  That that, those themes are what infused this and breathed life into the narrative.

• 34:51Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 34:52Rich Roll?

  That's beautiful, man. I love that. That's a very... Like rare thing to be able to maintain that level of connection, especially amongst guys.

• 35:02Colin O'Brady?

  And it's beautiful. It's like it kind of developed organically. And then there was kind of a line in the sand moment. Um, not in a bad way, but it was just like, if you're in, you're in this is a life, like an explicit, like this is a lifelong commitment.

• 35:16Rich Roll?

  Did anybody like miss their month or like, or like, you know, you're out?

• 35:20Colin O'Brady?

  No one's ever missed it. Um, uh, the, in the first year, one guy felt the commitment was too much and, and rightfully so, just said, you know, this isn't for me. And, and the 12 kind of callous, when we've had the 12 locked in around it, it's been, we've been there the whole time on this journey together. And it's, it's funny because we're 12 years into this kind of art piece or this project together. And it's a really, I'm an impatient person. As you can see, I wrote a book in a, in a, it's a calendar year. Like, I gotta get this out. I gotta get this down on paper. But for me, it's actually one of the beautiful things in my life to go like, oh, we're 12 years into this project and like, we're just getting started. Like I picture these moments, sitting around with these guys decades from now and, uh, you know, reading posts from the, go the good old aughts. Remember back in 2009, when you wrote this or that, you know, and it's 2050 or whatever.

• 36:04Colin O'Brady?

  If we're fortunate to continue to live healthy lives.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  It's the private digital forum version of Richard Linklater's Brotherhood.

• 36:11Colin O'Brady?

  Exactly.

• 36:14Rich Roll?

  I thought you were going to tell me that all 12 dudes showed up at that townhouse that night.

• 36:19Colin O'Brady?

  No, no, none of them there. And it's, and all I've, I've, I've been in person with all of them, the 12 of us, actually.

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Boyhood, not Brotherhood.

• 36:27Colin O'Brady?

  The 12 of us have actually never even been all in one place together. I think eight or nine is the most we've had. We try to get together, uh, every year, every other couple of years, but it really is a more than anything, a, uh, kind of a writing club. And of course we're in touch, but it is, um, it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. And anyways, I, I would, would, uh, love anyone to, uh, copy the format because it's been an amazing experience in my life. And, uh, yeah.

• 36:50Rich Roll?

  Well, I would say that's one of at least three Ohana's that you have. You have your Ohana Ohana, your family, family that you alluded to earlier. I would consider that a certain kind of Ohana.

• 37:00Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  And then we have this other Ohana that likes to, uh, be rode across.

• 37:07Rich Roll?

  Stormy waters, right?

• 37:10Colin O'Brady?

  Yes.

• 37:10Rich Roll?

  So how does this whole Drake Passage? Let's break this down.

• 37:14Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, let's get into it.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  How does this whole thing come together?

• 37:16Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so the project that I just completed, Christmas Day of this past year, so a few weeks ago, really, not even a month ago. It's just coincident that the possible first solo crossing was pitched on December 26th, and then this Drake row happened 364 days later. We finished on that. But the objective was as a team to see if we could be the first team to row a boat across Drake Passage. So that's from the southern tip of South America, starting at Cape Horn, in a tiny little rowboat, so no motor, no sail, nothing. 29-foot rowboat, about 29 feet long, about 4 and 1/2 feet wide. I mean, for six dudes.

• 37:52Rich Roll?

  For a rowboat is pretty big.

• 37:54Colin O'Brady?

  Okay.

• 37:54Rich Roll?

  Because you think of a rowboat, you know, like a dude in a lake, you know?

• 37:57Colin O'Brady?

  Okay, yeah, fair enough. For a rowboat to sail for a normal boat.

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  Professional rowboat. Yeah, I know. It's not like a... It's not like a seafaring vessel.

• 38:05Colin O'Brady?

  No, no, no. You look at that and you're like, I don't want to see 40-foot swells in that thing. And let me tell you, I did see 40-foot swells in that, and it was pretty freaking scary. But that was the objective. And then to row that boat all the way to the Antarctic Peninsula, which is across Drake Passage roughly, you know, 600, 700 miles. And Drake Passage is known as kind of the most ferocious waterway in the world because it's the convergence of the Atlantic, the Pacific, and the Southern Ocean all kind of get funneled together through this Drake Passage. And as of course, as you get close to Antarctica, you're looking at icebergs, you're looking at, you know, huge swells, you know, freezing cold water. The water is, I mean, 1 degree Celsius or 33 Fahrenheit. I mean, it's literally close to as freezing as you can get. And the goal kind of came together.

• 38:49Colin O'Brady?

  So the project itself had been kind of a little bit in the dreaming for a long time by this guy named Fionn Paul, who is pretty...

• 38:59Rich Roll?

  Who's like your captain.

• 39:00Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so he's, no, it's worthy of noting that I have never rowed a boat anywhere in my life.

• 39:06Rich Roll?

  Right. Let me just interject one thing here. Like, when you were back in Portland, like, training with your trainer, what's the guy's name again?

• 39:12Colin O'Brady?

  Mike McCassol.

• 39:14Rich Roll?

  You're doing these crazy exercises, and you kind of put it out on social media. Like, guess what? I'm getting ready for a big expedition. I'm gonna let you know in T minus five days or whatever. And you'd be doing the, and you're like, what do you think it is? And you're getting all these, people are saying crazy stuff. But I was like, there's a lot of core going on here. There seems to be like a lot of lat work. I'm like, this is, this definitely involves some kind of water. You know, like cold water.

• 39:37Colin O'Brady?

  Yes.

• 39:37Rich Roll?

  I think I said you were gonna windsurf, you know,

• 39:39Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  The Arctic Circle or something.

• 39:41Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Rich Roll?

  I was pretty close.

• 39:42Colin O'Brady?

  You were pretty close. People were guessing water. People were guessing this. One of the funniest guess. So I said, I'm gonna give someone an emoji trophy on the comments of who gets the funniest one. And one kid said, you're gonna try to eat at every single Waffle House in the course of a month. Which, for those of you on the West Coast, maybe don't know it, but it's the, you know, diner chain on the Southeast. If you've been to the Southeast ever, you've seen Waffle House. And the funniest thing, I, so I posted that on social. I said, I was like, winner, that's the most hilarious one. Maybe I should take that into consideration, just kinda joking around. Day later, my phone rings, random phone number, answer the phone.

• 40:16Rich Roll?

  CEO of Waffle House.

• 40:21Colin O'Brady?

  We have a thousand or eleven hundred different restaurants. Are you interested in actually trying to eat on them? I was like, maybe the next expedition. I'm focused on this rowing project right now. So it's hilarious, but.

• 40:31Rich Roll?

  But why this? Like, why, why did you have your sights set on this?

• 40:34Colin O'Brady?

  So a couple of reasons. One was, I have always been fascinated by the ocean. You and I both share the love of the water. We're both collegiate swimmers. And my dad has been living in Hawaii for 20 years or so. So I spent a lot of time in the open water coastally, but I've never been in the wide open ocean, never. I've never been on a sailboat in the open ocean, certainly never been on a rowboat. And so I've always just kinda been fascinated by exploring that part of the world, which I haven't explored before. And then also there was.

• 41:00Rich Roll?

  Huh, sea level. This is interesting. I'm not used to this.

• 41:05Colin O'Brady?

  And then the other piece of it that was kind of interesting for me was, you know, I had this kind of curiosity or this thesis of saying, I have, you know, built up these skills, if you, if you call them this, you know, swimming and then swimming into truffle and took truffle on into mountaineering and mountaineering into polar travel, which are all somewhat different from each other, but there's somewhat of a through line, certainly cold places or, you know, you know, Everest and crossing Antarctica are a lot closer together than crossing Antarctica is to rowing a boat across the ocean. And I was wondering if I could take that kind of with this beginner's mindset or a growth mindset of saying, is it possible in a short period of time to, I don't know, master would be not a fair word, but to be good enough or strong enough at a new

• 41:48Colin O'Brady?

  discipline in a short period of time to then take that to its highest extreme and still be successful. And then also, most of my other projects, clearly the solo Antarctica project is this, although, like I said, it's really a huge team, including Jenna and others around me to make these things possible. The athletic feat itself has always been a solo experience. It was swimming.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  Swimming, triathlon.

• 42:10Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, it's been a pretty individual path for me. You know, you swam on Stanford. It's like there's, you know, the Stanford swim team. At the end of the day, like you're lining up swimming the 200 butterfly. It's you in the lane, like swimming the race, you know? And so for me, it was interesting to say like, oh, I wonder what it'd be like to do a true team project. Like, that is also flexing and exercising a different muscle for me in the athletic space. That, of course, you know, on one hand, when I was suffering from all the solitude in Antarctica, would have been like, God, it'd been great to have some people around. On the other hand, of course, having six different people on a tiny little rowboat and different personalities and from different parts of the country, whatever, of course, is going to come with it some implicit challenges. And can we come together

• 42:50Colin O'Brady?

  as a high-performing team and be able to be successful together? So that was really the intrigue for me, was to kind of take a lot of lessons from previous expeditions, but apply it in this, A, new discipline of rowing, something I'd never done, the ocean, something I'd never done, and a team environment, something I'd never done, to see if we could be successful in doing that.

• 43:18Rich Roll?

  So, accomplished endurance athlete, certainly accomplished adventure athlete, but never a rower.

• 43:25Colin O'Brady?

  Never.

• 43:25Rich Roll?

  Right? And so you're depositing yourself into this team environment where, like...

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  You know, there's an argument to be made that you're the weak link, like you're the least experienced person in this boat, right? Because all these other guys are like vastly experienced ocean rowers and collegiate rowers, competitive rowers.

• 43:42Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so it was interesting, kind of.

• 43:44Rich Roll?

  I don't mean that in a pejorative way, but like, so my first, I want you to answer what you say, whatever you're going to say, but on top of that, like, how are these guys, you know, taking you in? Like, oh, we're going to do this like super hard thing that we're potentially putting our lives on the line and we got this guy who's never rowed a boat before, thinks he's all that.

• 44:05Colin O'Brady?

  So it was interesting. So the, you know, in the formation of the team, so Fionn, Paul, who was very accomplished, you know, the most accomplished ocean rower in the world at this point.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  He's done like the rowing version of what you did with the mountains.

• 44:18Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so I mean, he's the rowing grand slam. I'm not sure if that, like, it's kind of a new thing that he's coined, but he's the only person to have rowed and now set records, I believe, as well on every ocean. So the Indian, the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Southern Ocean, also the Arctic Ocean. So really, really accomplished, this Icelandic guy. Been thinking about this project for quite some time, looking at the Drake Passage as an objective. And via another guy that had been thinking about the project with him, a guy named Andrew Towne, he, we went to college together. So he rode at Yale and I swam there. We didn't really know each other in college, but like, because we were kind of both there at the same time, had some mutual friends and things like that. And he had climbed the Seven Summits. We were kind of aware of each other, had a few phone calls over the years, but like, wasn't like, oh, my buddy that I hung out with every

• 45:00Colin O'Brady?

  day in college or anything like that. So pretty unfamiliar with him as well. But he calls me up right after I get back from the solo crushing. I finally did go home and sleep in my own bed just after I saw you in New York. But the phone call happened like, I want to say like that week or something like that. And I get this phone call from Andrew Towne and he says like, hey, man, I know you just got back from Antarctica. It's super cool what you did there. You know, I'm kind of brainstorming on another expedition, like, wondering if you might be interested. And I'm like, what is it? He's like, you know, to go back to Antarctica in a rowboat. And I was like, delete my phone number.

• 45:33Colin O'Brady?

  I was like, I'm good. I'm not going back to Antarctica. But then, of course, I got into thinking and talking to them about it and kind of what plans they had made and what, you know, what was it going to take to get there? And what we quickly realized, of course, my interests were piqued as I thought about it a little bit more. But also, what they had kind of come to me with is like, a really interesting idea for a project. But these projects and what Jenna and I, and certainly I would say what Jenna is exceptional at, and a couple of other people that work with us now, a guy named Blake Brinker, who's extraordinary at this kind of stuff as well, is problem solving these expeditions. And it turns out that actually the logistics to do this project are really complicated. So you need this rowboat, you need this like custom-built rowboat, basically, that's like custom-built for all this cold weather.

• 46:17Colin O'Brady?

  There are ocean rowing vessels, but we needed to actually have it like retrofitted for like, you know, if we hit an iceberg and all this kind of crazy stuff. The only boat we could find is in the UK. That boat needs to be like imported to southern Chile via the Panama Canal, but to be able to go to Antarctica in a rowboat, you can't just like rock up to Antarctica in a rowboat because Antarctica, for good reasons, and I hope it is always this way, is one of the most environmentally protected, if not the most environmentally protected place on the planet. So unable to go there to get all this permitting, Antarctica is not an autonomous, you know, country, so you actually have to apply for one of the, through the, one of the treaty nations. And in this case, we had to have a supervising vessel, which meant to have a larger vessel with us, not providing us any support from the second we left shore. They weren't able to give us anything or touch us or anything like that, but they

• 47:00Colin O'Brady?

  provided the overall permitting to allow us to be in Antarctica, Antarctic waters, without creating all these problems. And that's like, you know, pun intended, I guess, that's the tip of the iceberg here with the complications of this. And so these guys have been dreaming up this project, but it was kind of like, but to pull this off, not only is it going to be very expensive, challenging to pull it off, but this is like a full-time effort of sort of deep, deep knowledge of how to run and facilitate logistics. And so myself, but really more than anyone, Jenna and Blake rolled up their sleeves and took, kind of took the CD, I said, said to Fiona, like, hey, can we like run with this? Can we like, you know, sink in and dig into this and see like the feasibility of this? And they, you know, they worked on it. Jenna and Blake worked on it all year long, basically every single day to pull together

• 47:44Colin O'Brady?

  these logistics and field adaptations. That's one thing that I brought to the table. And the other thing was, as you mentioned, Andrew Towne, another guy, John Peterson, who also wrote it, was the captain of the rowing team when I was there. Incredible athlete, like just absolutely outstanding athlete, collegiate athlete, etc. But he's a college principal, like since being a collegiate, or sorry, a high school principal.

• 48:04Rich Roll?

  High school principal.

• 48:04Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, a school principal.

• 48:05Rich Roll?

  He's the one who lives in Oakland?

• 48:06Colin O'Brady?

  He lives in Oakland. High school, might be, I can't remember if it's a high school or a high school principal. Incredible guy, but admittedly, he's like, I was the captain of the rowing team. I can put some big numbers up on a rowing erg. He's like, but I've never been on an expedition, other than a couple hunting trips with his dad. He's barely, you know, he's not been on big camping trips, or big mountaineering trips, or big expeditions or stuff like that. So it was interesting.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  He's like a Henley guy.

• 48:31Colin O'Brady?

  Right. And so it was interesting to say, I never looked at this team of, you know, maybe they looked at me as the weak link, maybe not, I have no idea. It's neither here nor there, really. It was that every single person is coming together. It's like Fionn, visionary of the project, dreamed it up, knew everything about the ocean rowing, and realized that no one had ever done this. Like, amazing. And obviously, when we're on the ocean, he's going to have some really important skills, but didn't quite have the ability to facilitate actual logistics of pulling off this large scale of a project. Jenna and I come in and understand that, have a lot of relationships through, been going to Antarctica several times.

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  And you have the profile, to in general, a lot of confidence with the discoveries of the world, right?

• 49:10Colin O'Brady?

  100%. Yeah. And then Discovery got behind it to do a big film project, which was cool. We talked about that because it was super interesting to kind of have that experience. Jenna was on the supporting, or the supervising vessel throughout the journey. So she actually crossed the Drake as well. There's a whole other story about that we can get into. But then, then you've got these, you know, great rowers, but without the expedition experience. So it actually ended up being.

• 49:30Rich Roll?

  They got the engine.

• 49:31Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah. So it was like, those guys can crank, but like, when the swells got up to 40 feet, and they're wet and cold and sleep deprived. So we were rowing 90 minutes on, 90 minutes off the entire time, because we had to keep the boat moving the entire time. You know, that was new water for them, because these guys used to crank it on a rowboat for five minutes or something like that. And that's like a max effort. So. It was really cool to, I mean, it was challenging, of course, but ultimately really cool to see everyone and because every single person really brought something exceptional to this project and we were definitely stronger as a collective whole than we would have been separately.

• 50:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, on paper, you look at it and you're like, this could either work really well because everyone's bringing their own unique skill set to this equation and that could make it sing and make it make the sum much greater than the sum of its parts, or it could just be a total disaster.

• 50:18Colin O'Brady?

  Totally.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  Right? And like in reading about this, it's like you guys, it's, you know, the press says not a single argument. Like, how is that possible? Like, you're facing these crazy obstacles and these swells and everything, you know, that we can get into about what happened during the crossing, but to be able to maintain your equanimity and your composure and to, you know, make sure that you're communicating effectively and all of that to like get through this, that's pretty amazing.

• 50:44Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, I mean, it, I mean, they're definitely inevitably, you're gonna have some tension points or just tense moments, not necessarily interpersonally, but like we got out in some pretty bad storms. I mean, there was a couple of times when the swells were 40 foot high. Certainly for me, that was pushing the edges of my comfort zone for sure.

• 51:01Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's crazy.

• 51:02Colin O'Brady?

  And one of the things that was interesting is that a lot of people, you know, the supervising vessel that was there with the permitting and stuff and also was housing the Discovery Channel film crew that was filming the entire thing, which was really cool because we were able to share this in real time on social media, basically as it was happening, you could tune in from, you were in Australia, I guess, and you were like, oh, I'm warm in the summer and Colin's, you know, freezing wet and cold in this tiny little rowboat.

• 51:23Rich Roll?

  I know, we had some texts beforehand, I was like, have a good time, man, I'm gonna be in Australia at the beach. I'll be, I'll be tuning in.

• 51:30Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so it was cool to be able to share that in real time, but what we quickly realized is with, you know, some people, I kind of imagined it and I can maybe in the back of my mind even imagine it this way, it's like, oh, there's this other boat there, so if we capsize or flip over, they can just like come easily scoop us out of the water and like, we'll be fine.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's my thought, that was my thought, like, it must give you, you could like- You know, if you get into real trouble, like you got the boat, right?

• 51:53Colin O'Brady?

  So there's, there's two sides of that same coin. One is these guys on this boat, that boat was our boat. The rowboat was called Ohana, um, which is, you know, the, the word that's been really special and throughout my life and not my own word, obviously a Hawaiian word to mean family. And that was the essence of this project was the family, the six of us coming together. But also their boat was called the Braveheart and that was the boat that Jenna was aboard the entire time, um, as well as the film crew and the, and the Braveheart crew. Came pretty, pretty obvious to me the second we got out there that yes, of course, in an extreme emergency, we wouldn't have been alone. There would have been another boat there and would have done their very best to help us. They had a Zodiac on board. They have a life raft on board and stuff like that. They never touched us. They never offered us any support.

• 52:38Colin O'Brady?

  And so we did be able to complete it without taking any support from them throughout the entire time, but worst case scenario, they would have been there. However, when I started looking at the mechanics, when I'm in this rowboat and there's this huge boat next to me, I'm going like, if that boat gets anywhere near us, it's way more of a disaster than it is a help. Like 40 foot 12, it's not like you can just like cruise up next to it and be like, hey guys, come aboard. Like you're going to be, they're going to just get, you know, capsize you even more. And so there was like a yes, ultimately was it safer because they were there? I'm sure it was, but there wasn't like this easy exit strategy. They're like, we might try to like throw you something and then we'll be here and we can call in the coast guard, you know, whatever that is. And so, um, it was certainly a benefit. I'm not trying to pretend like that wasn't an extra safety valve, but it wasn't as simple

• 53:22Colin O'Brady?

  as like, we have a crane and we can just pull your boat out if something happens in a massive storm. It was like, you guys are going to be in this storm and things are going to get crazy. The boat itself was, our boat, uh, was built to self-right. And so really our first line of defense was get inside the cabins, which we pretty much couldn't fit inside. Really only five out of the six of us could get inside. We're like all spooning each other, some funny video clips of us like basically lying on top of each other and let the boat either flip or roll or get bashed around these swells and the boat itself. And we tested it beforehand, actually, you know, hopefully comes back up, upright and self-right. So that was, uh, that was more or less the first line of defense is just hang on for dear life and hope the boat comes back upright.

• 54:00Rich Roll?

  So in those 40, 50 foot swell moments or days or hours when, look, you're not going to be rowing through that, right? Like you just all hunker down and you're like, well, just ride it out and then lay down here and let it pitch us however it's going to pitch us?

• 54:14Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so the, um, a couple of things. One, you know, I'm new to seafaring, but also learned a lot through training for this project and ultimately executing it. Um, so when the swell is lined up in the right direction, we actually, there was a couple of times when just coincidentally, it was like, we're basically on a southeast heading and the, you know, 40 plus foot swell, we're coming the right way.

• 54:35Rich Roll?

  Turbocharged.

• 54:36Colin O'Brady?

  We could go with it.

• 54:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Colin O'Brady?

  And it was like wild. It was like riding like the wildest roller coaster of all time. I felt like going down Splash Mountain or something like when you're a kid, you're like flying like slow, like luge. You can feel the wave, just like you're basically essentially surfing these waves and coming up over these swells. And some of the shots that the discovery took from the other boat, you would like see us up on the crest of the wave and then a full, I mean, 29 foot's not huge. We see a full 29 foot sailboat or rowboat completely disappear in the ocean, can't see it at all. And then it would come back out and the full thing would disappear. And you're like, wow, that gives you a perspective on how big these swells were. So that was a, then, then one of the reasons this crossing is as challenging as it is in a rowboat, um, compared to say crossing the Atlantic or something like that would be, um, that, not to say crossing Atlantic is easy, but

• 55:20Colin O'Brady?

  if you cross the Atlantic from the east to west, my understanding is the swell and the predominant winds or the trade winds go usually, um, east to west across that.

• 55:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Colin O'Brady?

  Um, whereas in the Drake Passage, the wind shifts pretty much every single day in every single different direction. So there were several times when the waves would either be side to our boat, which could easily roll us if we approached to the waves, um, or completely against us. And in those instances, way, way, way too unsafe to row at all. And our only choice was to basically throw this thing off our boat called a sea anchor. Um, for those that don't know what that is, because I didn't know what that is before I started rowing a boat, um, was basically a big parachute that fills with, you know, seawater, but it holds you directionally into the, into the swell. So it basically point the, uh, bow of the boat into the swell and kind of, we couldn't row at all, but we would get inside these tiny little cabins and hunker down. Now, There was three seats for-

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  It happened a couple of times.

• 56:12Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so there was three seats for rowing and there was three of us not rowing at any given time, so six of us alternating 90 minutes on, 90 minutes off. The cabins were tiny, you know, two people in one cabin, the bow cabin, and then Fionn and I were alternating in the stern cabin because that had all the navigation and the radio and stuff like that. So him and I were the people on that, kind of, you know, him as the captain and me as the first mate, you know, kind of operating those controls on our, you know, alternating shifts. And that cabin was tiny for one person. Now, when Fionn and I had to get in there, just picture this, I, super strapping Icelandic dude, like six foot two, six foot three, I don't know, he's tall, he's got, you know, his really wide shoulders, you're like, that's a guy I want to help row a boat. You're like, that's amazing.

• 56:54Colin O'Brady?

  You're like, that is not the guy that I want to cuddle up with next to in a space like the size of, you know, it's like two foot tall and like four foot long and we're like both in the fetal position curled up next to each other. And it's not like we get in there, we're like, you know, look for the weather report. When's the weather gonna turn? Uh, check back in 22 hours. And the boat's just, wah, wah, wah, just bashing around, smashing around. And here and I, Fionn and I, just jammed this wedge in this little cabin, just hanging on for dear life, you know, literally cuddling each other, big spoon, little spoon, the whole deal. It was quite an adventure.

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  I'm getting claustrophobic and seasick thinking about it. And I want to get into like the sleep stuff and the, you know, the, you know, how do you poop and all that kind of stuff that everyone wants to know about. But one thing I want to point out, and I actually didn't realize this until this morning when I was kind of looking into your expedition a little bit more in depth, the day before you guys push off, a Chilean C-130 disappears with 38 people on it.

• 57:56Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 57:56Rich Roll?

  I did not know that.

• 57:57Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, it was a really eerie and obviously ultimately-

• 58:00Rich Roll?

  Going across the Drake Passage.

• 58:02Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so we were staging our expedition in the town of Punta Arenas, Chile. We flew down there early with, you know, we got our rowboat through customs there and we were doing, you know, packing the boat until we all arrived at Punta Arenas, Chile, which is the same town that I actually left for to go to Antarctica the two other times I've been there for the solo crossing and the Explorers Grand Slam projects. So we staged that there partially because Jen and I have some relationships down there that could help facilitate that built up from the years. So it's made sense. And also it's either that or Ushuaia, Argentina would be the kind of two ports that you could imagine staging this from to get down to Cape Horn. So we staged out of Punta Arenas and the day that we're leaving on the Braveheart, so Braveheart takes us from Punta Arenas and actually takes us to Cape Horn, the actual starting point for the rowboat, we're all aboard the Braveheart.

• 58:45Colin O'Brady?

  We find out about that day that we're leaving that a plane crashed in the middle of Drake Passage, a C-130 as you mentioned, and that plane actually had left from Punta Arenas. So a plane took off basically where we are, flying towards Antarctica. It was a Chilean military plane and crashed in the middle of Drake Passage and ultimately 38 people lost their lives, which is terribly sad, terribly tragic. And then an interesting kind of chain of events unfolded from there for us, which is after a year of Blake and Jenna filling out all this permitting, all this requirements, dotting the i's, crossing every t's, super complicated process to get us to this point. We're driving south on the Braveheart towards Cape Horn and a Chilean military boat pulls up right beside us and contacts our captain,

• 59:30Colin O'Brady?

  asks us to pull over and they board the ship. And they ask us what we're doing, what are we doing there? What's this rowboat thing that you have attached to your, outside of your boat? Like what the heck is going on? And we talked to them and they ultimately are like, "You do know about this plane that just crashed, right?" And we're like, "Yeah, we're aware of that." They're like, "We're not sure that we can let this project go. We're gonna detain, not detain you in a bad way, but like we need to divert you to our military base." So that was step one then. Eight hours kind of out of our way to go to this town called Puerto Williams, where we had, there's a larger military outpost there of the Chilean military. And then our captain had to get off the boat and meet with the Chilean military and they're like, "Look, like all of our search and rescue is diverted towards,

• 1:00:13Colin O'Brady?

  you know, doing a grid-like formation to find any remnants of the plane or survivors or any of this in the middle of Drake Passage." You can understand from our point of view, while we wouldn't want someone else to launch seemingly kind of dangerous expedition.

• 1:00:27Colin O'Brady?

  While this is happening.

• 1:00:28Rich Roll?

  Their resources are dispersed.

• 1:00:29Colin O'Brady?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  They would be able to help you.

• 1:00:31Colin O'Brady?

  And candidly, obviously, as disappointed as I felt like, wow, we planned all of this stuff and now it looks like we're not going to be able to go. If I'm sitting in the same shoes as the Chilean, you know, military guy, I'm looking at this and thinking the same thing. I'm thinking like, we can't, like, why would we, you know, allow this to go forward?

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and then the potential for two, you know, gigantic disasters to happen back to back.

• 1:00:54Colin O'Brady?

  Exactly, just right on top of each other. So we were there for a day, about a day, I guess it was, and really a testament to the entire team, you know, Jenna and Blake and the people who worked on the permitting for us logistics and this is they kind of, they, they were like, okay, if we're gonna let you do this, we need to come on your boat and just do like a top to bottom survey of what you guys have going on. So, we're, come on, we want to see the full row, but we want to see all of your survival suits. Fion had designed these custom survival suits for us that we could row in, these like bright orange suits that we have these photos in, which ended up being amazing.

• 1:01:27Rich Roll?

  Is that different from the dry suits?

• 1:01:29Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Rich Roll?

  They're special dry suits too, right?

• 1:01:31Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so this is the same thing that I'm talking about, but usually a dry suit, you wouldn't be able to row in. It was like really kind of bulky and so he designed specialty with all of his years of ocean knowledge experience, that just special custom built suit that allowed us to both row but have the safety of a dry suit. And they were like, you know, the Chilean military is like, okay, well, while you've thought that through, that's interesting. And then they see all our flares and our e-purb and all our safety protocol and that everything's registered correctly and that like, you know, they look up all of our resumes and they're like, okay, like, this guy is incredible, this person's cross Antarctica. You know, some of the other guys we haven't even mentioned, like, you know, Cameron Bellamy is like a world renowned, you know, open water swimmer, you know, legendary open water swimmer. And they're kind of looking, okay, okay, like, the crew is like a legitimate group of guys attempting this.

• 1:02:14Colin O'Brady?

  And then they do top to bottom on Braveheart, you know, all their safety protocols, all this stuff. And in the paperwork that we had built with them, you know, Jenna and them had worked really closely together and actually built this kind of dossier, it was ended up being like a 30-page thing of all the different safety protocols. If A happens, B happens, if C happens, you know, all this kind of things. And so fortunately for us, certainly still deeply tragic of the people who lost their life up there, but they took a look at it and they said, you know what, like you guys actually, you know, have every piece of paperwork you need. You've got the right resume. You have all the safety protocols. You have the backup safety protocols. You know, we're going to let you launch this boat. So ultimately we were only delayed by a day, but it was a very kind of, you know, nervous thing and also just surreal and tragically sad for

• 1:02:58Colin O'Brady?

  the people that lost their life and the, the search and rescue that was going on.

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So that was going on kind of all swirling around you when you guys pushed off, right? Did, did they recover any of the passengers or?

• 1:03:09Colin O'Brady?

  Um, I'm not, I don't think they found any survivors, unfortunately. I know they did find a few pieces of the wreckage ultimately, but it was, um, you know, not that much was recovered. One of the other interesting things that did happen that was, you know, challenging for us is they said, we will let you launch this. However, here is this area and they gave us four weight points that basically formed a square and said, this is the grid where we're looking for wreckage. You know, this is where boats and planes are flying over and all this kind of stuff. And they drew it out on the map and it's literally like the entirety of the whole center of Drake Passage. So like the first hundred or so miles off of Cape Horn, we were fine, but really quickly we were going to get into that space. And they said, if you want to do this, you can't come into this area until

• 1:03:52Colin O'Brady?

  we call off the search. And so when we did launch, um, we kind of had to just make the call of like, hey, like we're going to row in this direction. We actually changed our course on a western heading to see if we might have to add distance to avoid this, but we didn't know which way the current was going to sweep. We ultimately got lucky and the, the current and wind pushed that grid area kind of, you know, further away and we were able to continue our course. But even though just the first cut, it's almost like, um, you know, you like, you know, jump off and begin a project and you just don't know if like, you know, three days later it's just going to completely, yeah, it's going to happen. So.

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  Two things. I mean, first of all, why would you sort of, you know, passing through that area be problematic for the search and rescue?

• 1:04:31Colin O'Brady?

  Because they just didn't want any other traffic in there, any other boat, any other thing. They're, they're trying to spot stuff from airplanes. Like, oh my God, what's that little thing down there? Is that a piece of wreckage? Is that a piece of the plane? Just to like, they're like, stay. We probably shouldn't be letting you do this anyways. If we're gonna let you do this, like just stay out of our, you know, zone. Totally understandable.

• 1:04:49Rich Roll?

  Second thing, just from, you know, a mental perspective, like, all right, we're getting ready to do this thing. And then like this plane crashes, you know, and 38p, it's go missing, presumably dead. And you're like a day away from like, do it. That's, and from what I understand, the weather conditions were not that bad that day, right? It was like, it was supposedly fairly clear. So it was surprising.

• 1:05:10Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, it was clear. There was some, some higher winds, but it was really unclear as to why that happened. Yeah.

• 1:05:15Rich Roll?

  That had to rent some crazy space in your head.

• 1:05:17Colin O'Brady?

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  Was anybody like, hey, man, I don't know. Like, I might, I might be pulling out of this.

• 1:05:23Colin O'Brady?

  I mean, it definitely gave us, it gave us all pause. I will say that. And I've heard Andrew and John reflect on the moment when the Chilean military boarded us and said, hey, this might not go like at first. And Andrew and John were telling me afterwards, I can't remember which one, I think it was Andrew, was telling me this. And he said, he was like, you know, really upset and bummed. But he realized in his subconscious, he was like, kind of relieved. Like, it kind of had been like,

• 1:05:48Rich Roll?

  It's gonna get off the hook.

• 1:05:49Colin O'Brady?

  You know what, like,

• 1:05:50Rich Roll?

  It's not my fault.

• 1:05:51Colin O'Brady?

  It's not my fault. Like this. And so the, the captain of the Braveheart, after meeting with the Chilean, you know, was gonna come back, we're having a group meal. And that's when he was gonna share the news. And actually, I had kind of readied myself, given the circumstances for at best case scenario, they're gonna be like, maybe in a week, try again. And we were gonna run out of, we didn't have that time because we were renting this big boat and we couldn't afford to just keep renting indefinitely. And he basically, he comes in and he's like, I've got good news for you. We're gonna be able to go. And Andrew said to me that it was that moment that he was like, oh, we have to go.

• 1:06:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause once you, once you mentally check out a little bit, trying to get back into that,

• 1:06:34Colin O'Brady?

  Totally.

• 1:06:34Rich Roll?

  Game headspace.

• 1:06:36Colin O'Brady?

  Ultimately, Andrew was an absolute amazing, super strong and got his mind and body right. But a momentary moment of like, oh, oh, wow, this is, this is real. And it does. I mean, you know, people, of course, in, in looking what I've done and You know, obviously, I'm not going to sit here and say what I've done is the safest choices in all of the land. I try to prepare, I try to plan, I try to put the safety protocols in place around the things that I'm doing, but there's some implicit risk in the activities that I've imparted. And after the Antarctica crossing, the Solo crossing, people said to me, they were like, you've done this, you set the speed record in the Seven Summits, you've done some of these other things, like, you think you're good now?

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, take a beat.

• 1:07:16Colin O'Brady?

  Like, don't try to be the next Evel Knievel and keep one-upping this. And that's never been my desire, to just do stunts or feats or anything like that. But as this was unfolding, I'll be honest, my own in-earner dialogue was like, is this a step too far? Like, Drake Passage, rowboat, you know, this idea of doing something I've never done? Ultimately, we know how it turned out, Positive was able to achieve it, but I have moments of doubt. And my internal dialogue was definitely triggered a little bit in that moment of kind of like, wait a second, wait a second, is this madness?

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  Is that when you, you know, turn to Jenna and say, like, is this, are we on the right course here?

• 1:07:56Colin O'Brady?

  So Jenna said to me, it might not have been right in that moment, but within the last day or so before launch, there had been a lot of actual, I mean, there had been a lot of challenges in getting this thing to launch, and just complications, just with, you know, the column bars that I use in Antarctica, the special bars. By the way, I was entirely vegan the entire row.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  There you go.

• 1:08:17Colin O'Brady?

  But I was. I was entirely vegan the whole row. The column bars, which are kind of specialty bars that my sponsor, Standard Process, created for me and this time for the entire team, those got stuck in Chilean customs and we couldn't get them out. It looked like our food wasn't going to arrive. There, you know, a number of things happened with like packing the boat and getting the boat and the logistics and people's flights delayed and like all this kind of stuff. And then this plane crashes. And Jenna looks over at me and she says, it's kind of this interesting moment where she's like, Well, this is one of two things that's happening right now. There are so many red flags, and this is the final red flag actually telling us, you know what? Pack it in. Get on a plane, go home, go spend Christmas with the family.

• 1:09:01Colin O'Brady?

  Like, you know, enough is enough. She goes, it's either that, or, the eternal optimist that she is, or it's a stacking of all of these obstacles overcome, and this is the final one to overcome before being able to kind of be set free and do this journey. And she kind of asked me, which one do you think it is?

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  And knowing the difference.

• 1:09:19Colin O'Brady?

  Knowing the difference.

• 1:09:20Rich Roll?

  Is, is the difference between life and death. Honestly, like, that's so tricky, right? Because it can go either way. It's like, look, all the evidence was there. The universe was trying to tell you, man. With the heat, you know, that volume.

• 1:09:35Colin O'Brady?

  How many more times can I?

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  All right, I just crashed a plane. You know, like, what else do you need to know about why this is a bad idea? Or like, hey, man, life is about like overcoming these obstacles when they get around at you. And can you just, can you maintain that level of focus?

• 1:09:50Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, yeah. And I'm ultimately proud that we were able to come together and stick together, and the team on the rowboat stuck together. The Braveheart team was amazing. Jenna's supervising role from the Braveheart, you know, worked out, but it was hard earned. And some of these, you know, circling back on the concept I said, you know, whiteboard into reality, or something I read out in the, in the book, it's amazing to talk about the epic adventure, the 40-foot swells, or being alone in Antarctica, what it felt to be pulling a 375-pound sled, you know, 12 hours a day alone across Antarctica. You know, those are the, you know, edge of the seat moments here. And I, of course, love experiencing them, and I love talking about them. But there's a place that's maybe a little bit less sexy between writing the idea on the whiteboard and actually executing on your dreams.

• 1:10:35Colin O'Brady?

  And it's like toiling in those moments of that grind, and they're not always as high stakes as, you know, what we're talking about here. But it's like, are you willing to just keep putting your head down? When, you know, oh, to get a Chilean boat, into Chilean customs, you need these 17 pieces of paperwork and this thing.

• 1:10:52Rich Roll?

  A lot of bureaucracy.

• 1:10:53Colin O'Brady?

  You know, and you're like, are you willing to sit there for a month and like fill that out? Like, you know, like, that stuff's not sexy, and no one ever wants to, it's not cool to talk about this or whatever. Like, that is, that is the difference between dreaming up to something. Versus dreaming up and actually doing the thing is being able to put all of those steps together.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  And just knocking out those little things one by one. Because when you look at it from 10,000 feet, or somebody just randomly happened upon your Instagram stories during this, it looks like, oh, he's some kind of, you know, Richard Branson billionaire guy, he's got all this money, and he's got this boat. And it, you know, it's really hard to see the reality of it, because the grandeur is what you're kind of smacked in the face with.

• 1:11:36Colin O'Brady?

  Right, right, yeah. And I, I mean, I love storytelling just in general, but I think that something I often point to is the NBC coverage of the Olympics. It's like, I don't know all the sports in the Olympics, I love the Olympics, but you may have seen in the book, Pablo Morales, your college teammate, played a really significant role, inspiring the heck out of me when I was a little kid. But, you know, you turn on, it's the fencing or something like that, and you're like, I don't know anything about this, but you get this backstory of actual guy, and it's his village back home, training for this, and all of a sudden, like, you're engaged in that. And it's not just, at least for me, when I look at high performance in sports, as I've gotten closer and closer and lived to it in my own life, as much as I love seeing the guy sprint the 100-meter dash and win the gold medal with his hands in the air, whatever,

• 1:12:19Colin O'Brady?

  I look at that, and the first thing I think about is not the, you know, 9.6 seconds or whatever it just took him to run that race. I'm like, huh, I wonder, like, what was that journey? Like, where was the first race? Where was the time he broke his ankle? Where was when no one cared? When was then, he lost the race to his, you know, the best guy in his high school, and he came back again? You know, what is that entire process? Where was the people in his life that said, you can't do this, you're not going to do this? Those quiet moments alone, full of doubt, full of fear, but what was it that made him get up when his alarm went off the next day at 5:00 a.m. and get out to the track? Because that is ultimately what is manifest in those, you know, 10 seconds.

• 1:12:53Rich Roll?

  And there isn't, there isn't one athlete in that situation that doesn't have an incredible story. And, you know, that led them to that point. And NBC does an incredible job of, you know, finding the best of those stories and telling them well. And that's what, that's what, like, lights that Olympic. Spirit fire and people.

• 1:13:09Colin O'Brady?

  Totally.

• 1:13:10Rich Roll?

  When you're like, cause now you under, it's like, I don't follow fencing, but if you tell me that story, like I'm all in, you know, like I, I'm a hundred percent there for that person.

• 1:13:18Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Rich Roll?

  It's so, it's so like infectious.

• 1:13:21Colin O'Brady?

  I, I love that stuff and I, you know, not, not an NBC documentary by any means, but certainly uh, through the book, it's like, it's not just like, let me tell you about 54 days crossing the Arctic. It's let me tell you about the totality of the life and experience and the mentors and the people that, you know, cause to me, I think that that's the, the, the things I've read and the things that I watch and things that I consume. If they don't have the fabric of the reality of the journey and the story, then it falls a little bit flat.

• 1:13:45Rich Roll?

  You're a natural storyteller and I knew that when I was in that townhouse and you had just gotten back from that experience and you told the story so well. You had such a command over, you know, what that narrative, you know, was and, and what was impactful about it. And you've done that in the book as well. And you, you really do it on the daily on, on Instagram. Like you're relentless. Like you're, you're always like making sure that, you know, you're telling a good story, you know, it's not just like a clip of this. Like there's a story that's unfolding always. Um, you know, through these adventures that you're having, but, and I was, once again, like, I was like, how is he doing this on the, like, how is this working? There's no, there's no like cell service or internet and the Drake pack, you know, passage.

• 1:14:27Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:28Rich Roll?

  And you're not allowed to like do anything with the Braveheart boat.

• 1:14:32Colin O'Brady?

  Right.

• 1:14:32Rich Roll?

  So how is, how did all that work?

• 1:14:34Colin O'Brady?

  So it was pretty cool. Um, you know, we're talking about storytelling and that's something, um, and I quickly alluded to, but I'm going to double click on it, which is, um, I have been so inspired by other people's stories in my life. Um, people who I've never met, but that's reading a book, that's watching a film, that's watching the Olympics, you know, whatever that is. Um, and so I've realized that one of my great passions is, you know, in the duality of pushing my body in these extreme environments. But sharing that in a storytelling medium, and now we have the ability of social media and real-time storytelling to bring people into that story while it's happening with the hope of having that ripple effect of positivity. We had, you know, 600,000 students are enrolled in my nonprofit programs of STEM curriculums, and they're following along

• 1:15:17Colin O'Brady?

  every single day. They're learning about science, technology, engineering, math, building scale models of the boat, or learning about weather, or climate change, or the ocean temperatures,

• 1:15:25Rich Roll?

  or this. Is that through Beyond72?

• 1:15:26Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, it's my nonprofit Beyond72. And we built these curriculums, but these students, all of a sudden, their mind is lit up because they're like, wait, this is a real thing that's happening right now. It's not a dusty textbook of something that happened like way back when. And that's the power of storytelling. Or for me, as a young person, I mentioned Pablo Morales. You know, when I was seven years old, the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, I was a seven-year-old kid, didn't have much money in my family, you know, really kind of, you know, basic childhood growing up. My mother was young when she had me, so, you know, she was a young mother. And we have a TV set. And there's a TV set showing me the Olympics, you know, halfway around the world in this city called Barcelona, Spain, that might as well been on a different planet compared, you know, I never traveled when

• 1:16:09Colin O'Brady?

  I was a kid. And I see this 100-meter butterfly and this guy win this gold medal. And it sparked a fire inside of me. My mom was like, she just said to me, you know, my mom's incredible in her guidance she gave me throughout my entire life, including with the burn accident, which you and I have talked about in depth. But, you know, she says to me, she's not like, oh, that was this cool thing we watched on TV. She was like, that inspired you? Like, do you want to join the local swim team? Like, we could do that. And like, she remember her saying, like, it's 1992, what's the peak age for a swimmer in the Olympics? And I was like, I don't know, for men, maybe. You know, we went and looked it up, and, you know, maybe it's 19, or 23, or 27. She's like, okay, so what Olympics might you be able to swim at? Is it 2008? Is it 2012? Like, my mom walked me down the path. But where

• 1:16:52Colin O'Brady?

  I'm going with that is the storytelling. The element of somebody sharing their story, NBC in this case, sharing Pablo Morales's story with a seven-year-old boy sitting in Portland, Oregon, changed the entire trajectory of my life, what I believed in, and whatever. And so with my expeditions, I've always done my best to share the stories in real time. And with this expedition in particular, as we realized the need for this supervising vessel, we all of a sudden realized that we were going to have the best capability we've ever had to tell a live story in real time. And that's when this amazing partnership came to life with Discovery Channel. And they said, "We want to shoot this long-form documentary of this thing, and we can shoot it from the Braveheart." And we're like, "That's amazing."

• 1:17:34Colin O'Brady?

  But what about in addition to that, we invest in the best satellite technology possible to be able to beam social media content? So as you're watching Instagram stories of me getting bashed around in my little cabin on Christmas Day, or arriving, penguins jumping off the side of the boat, or all the things I was able to just capture with my iPhone, we could send that out. Or, in their case, they created also 14 what they called mid-form episodes, about five or 10-minute episodes that you can go see on YouTube, or you can see the long-form documentaries, not out yet. And the same thing, they actually had an editor onboard. So the guys were shooting, editor onboard, Iridium, partner with us as well. It's a satellite company to have the best, most powerful satellite. You still

• 1:18:15Colin O'Brady?

  can't send a ton. It's not like you could just beam content right and left as if a normal internet connection, but they could get enough content out to share these little clips, these little episodes, these little things. And it was really cool to bring that to life. I mean, it took having a massive partner like a Discovery, it took Iridium believing in the project, it took a lot of different bigger pieces that we were able to pull together. But ultimately, it gave, hopefully, the experience of, like I said, those 600,000 students following along this visceral, real experience, that just people who are following along on my Instagram and things like that, a way to connect with the story as it's unfolding. And my heroes in exploration are the heroes of 100 years ago, and they'd go away for three years, like Shackleton or someone like that, and

• 1:19:00Colin O'Brady?

  come back and maybe have a couple really grainy images, and their journals that they could have transcribed or something like that.

• 1:19:07Rich Roll?

  And telling their story at the Yale Club.

• 1:19:09Colin O'Brady?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:19:10Rich Roll?

  What is it about Yale?

• 1:19:11Colin O'Brady?

  I don't know. I'm like the least Yale Yale guy ever. But the thing about...

• 1:19:19Colin O'Brady?

  The thing about now, and trust me, I think there's a lot of things that are negative about social media. And I've had my addictions and vices in the world of social media and going down the rabbit hole of a phone for sure. And I see the pitfalls of it. I do think to see the beauty of it. I do see the beauty of being able to share stories at scale and impact people in that positive way. And I know you do as well. And it's a cool thing.

• 1:19:40Rich Roll?

  I love that it all goes back to Pablo. I mean, that's just, that's beautiful. You know, I remember that 100 meter butterfly race in Barcelona, like I could recount every second of that. I've watched it so many times. And, you know, I was somebody who, who, who grew up with pictures of Pablo on my wall as a kid, even though I'm older than you, and then had the opportunity to, to train and be a teammate of his at, at Stanford. And I watched somebody who, you know, he was the most dominant swimmer in NC2A history. I think he won, like, he won all of his races at NC2A championships, except maybe one, like, he almost had a perfect record.

• 1:20:16Colin O'Brady?

  Wow.

• 1:20:17Rich Roll?

  Between 84 and 88, the most dominant, you know, American swimmer there was. Goes into the 88 Olympic trials with the expectation that he'll not only make the team, but he's going to be the captain of the team. And whether he overtrained, or had a bad day, or whatever, he shows up at Olympic trials and he doesn't make the team.

• 1:20:34Colin O'Brady?

  Crazy.

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  It's the craziest thing, right? So then he goes to law school.

• 1:20:38Colin O'Brady?

  And swimming's brutal like that. There's no like, oh, your coach's selection. It's like, you didn't perform in the day. You didn't make one or top one or two in your event.

• 1:20:45Rich Roll?

  Career's over. So he goes to law school at Cornell, does two years at Cornell, and then decides, hey, I miss my family. I've got some family stuff. I'm going to go back home for a while. Dips his toe back in the water and is like, maybe I can swim a little bit, you know, starts swimming a little bit without any agenda. It's like, I feel pretty good, and decides to go for it again. And against all odds, makes the team in 92, and then wins the gold medal. This is a guy who is, whose parents were, were immigrants from Cuba. His dad, like, very, you know, salt of the earth people, like, the nicest people in the world. And Pablo is one of the most humble people you will ever meet for being such an incredibly talented, you know.

• 1:21:32Rich Roll?

  athlete. I mean, when you watch him swim, it's like poetry. It's a beautiful, beautiful

• 1:21:36Colin O'Brady?

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:36Rich Roll?

  And when he won that gold medal and they cut to his dad in the stands, it's just, I can't, you know, I cry every time I see that.

• 1:21:43Colin O'Brady?

  I have goosebumps just hearing it. And I mean, I am sitting here as a product of the guy who could have given up in 88, who could have not come back to swimming. And literally for me, never met Pablo Morales, but deep, deep, deep gratitude for him continuing on his path and be able to shine in the entire world. And for me to be able to beam that signal from the other side of, you know, Europe into my living room to experience that moment. You know, as a little kid, it certainly changed my life. And it's funny, I didn't, you know, when I first picked up your book several years ago, I had no idea about, you know, the Stanford swimmer thing, but I didn't think of the orientation. And I remember there's a photo of him and you graduating from law school together or something in your book.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  Well, so then, then we, so then I went to Cornell Law School, but I was there while he was back training. So like, he did two years and then I show up after he stopped out.

• 1:22:33Colin O'Brady?

  Right.

• 1:22:33Rich Roll?

  And then we did our final year together.

• 1:22:35Colin O'Brady?

  That's what it was. And so I remember when I read your book the first time, opened it up, like, no way, Rich Roll, Pablo Morales. Like, it's just crazy how the, all those different kind of tentacles intertwine.

• 1:22:45Rich Roll?

  To be clear, all right, just so there's no confusion. When I was swimming at Stanford, you know, they would like skip through the coach, where he's like, all right, get in the lane with Pablo, you know, it's like, all right, you know, and I'm behind him, just watching his feet get further and further ahead of me. Like, it's not like I was going toe to toe with this guy. Like, I could not train at his level.

• 1:23:05Colin O'Brady?

  But you were in the same lane, which is very cool.

• 1:23:07Rich Roll?

  I was. And that's what I wanted. That's what I had to work, you know?

• 1:23:09Colin O'Brady?

  What's Pablo up to these days?

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  He, he has been the head coach of the swim team at University of Nebraska for quite some time.

• 1:23:16Colin O'Brady?

  Oh, cool. That's awesome.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  So he graduated from law school, he practiced law for a little bit and was like, this isn't for me. And got the head coaching gig at Nebraska. And he's been there for a long time.

• 1:23:25Colin O'Brady?

  Well, if you ever talk to him, send him my deepest love and gratitude for inspiring the seven real version of myself.

• 1:23:31Rich Roll?

  I love that.

• 1:23:40Rich Roll?

  Um, alright. How'd you poop?

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  How'd you go to the bathroom?

• 1:23:45Colin O'Brady?

  You must be reading the Instagram comments.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:23:47Colin O'Brady?

  It's certainly the most asked question.

• 1:23:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. I know the answer, but like, you know, just in case anybody's listening.

• 1:23:53Colin O'Brady?

  Everybody wants to know. There was no toilet facilities on the boat. There was no amenities really of any kind on the boat. There's three seats on the boat for the rowing. There's what's called the stroke seat, which is by the stern cabin. Obviously, when you row, you're facing backwards the direction that you're going. Same as like a rowing crew boat on a river. I sat in the bow seat, so I was sitting towards the front of the boat, but the third person in the line, if that makes sense. Next to the bow seat, we had our fancy toilet. Literally one inch from where I was sitting the entirety of this expedition, which lasted just under two weeks. We had a five gallon bucket. And inside that five gallon bucket was how we used the bathroom. So someone would say, either me while I was rowing, or you know, the guy Cameron or Jamie, who was one of the two other guys that I rowed with.

• 1:24:38Colin O'Brady?

  They would say, "Hey, man, I gotta go to the bathroom. Get out of your seat." I would get up, I'd switch into their seat. You'd take care of their business and simple as that. Not glamorous, but...

• 1:24:48Rich Roll?

  And then you'd just bail the bucket out?

• 1:24:50Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, bail the bucket out. Obviously not throwing any trash into the ocean, but the human waste went over into the ocean. And that's kind of the standard protocol of that. It's not... A lot of people want to know that. It's, you know, yeah, we had to go to the bathroom.

• 1:25:02Rich Roll?

  I mean, how do you think?

• 1:25:03Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh.

• 1:25:04Rich Roll?

  It's a bucket, man.

• 1:25:06Colin O'Brady?

  A bucket, simple as that.

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  So there was one day where one of the dudes, it must have been Cameron, went swimming?

• 1:25:13Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  And it looked like, was he not wearing a wetsuit?

• 1:25:17Colin O'Brady?

  No, Cameron Bellamy is just a legendary human being. You would love this guy.

• 1:25:25Colin O'Brady?

  I, yeah, he, gosh, what a guy. He's a South African guy, lives in San Francisco now. He's rowed for the national team of South Africa when he's, I think he's 38 or something now, but when he was kind of early twenties. So he's a really accomplished rower. And then later in life, you can appreciate this, much later in life, in his late twenties, maybe early thirties, he got into swimming. Like, wasn't a pool swimmer, didn't swim. And you know, you know how hard it is from your triathlon audience, people just to kind of learn how to swim like later in life. But if you don't learn it well at a young age. Yeah, it's tough. It's super tough. And he just got way, way, way into swimming. And so for the last several years, he's accomplished a ton in the world of ocean water swimming. So he's done, I hope I don't get this wrong, but he's done like whatever the ocean swimming

• 1:26:07Colin O'Brady?

  Grand Slam is. So he swam all the major channels. It's called something slightly different than that. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Like you do the Strait of Gibraltar. Yeah, exactly. You swim across the English Channel and you know all the major big passages, the one in Japan. Done that. Crazy stories from that, all these jellyfish stings and all this. No wet suit, always no wet suit. And a couple of those. The one, I think the one between the Ireland and the UK maybe is that one. I might, again, I might be getting this wrong. Forgive me, ocean swimming community for getting it, not the detail specific. That one was like freezing cold. That's like 50 degree waters or something like that, or low 50s and. Did no wet suit. No wet suit. Just put on a ton of weight? Yeah, ocean swimming is, is no wet suit. Put the Vaseline on? Ton of Vaseline on. So then what he did is he swam around the entire circumference

• 1:26:50Colin O'Brady?

  of Barbados, which no one had ever done that before. And that was last year. And then this year, while we were training for the row, he actually was a lot more focused on a swimming project that he was doing. And he completed what I believe is the longest, or certainly one of the longest, might be the longest, open ocean swim crossing ever, which was 57 hours straight from Saint, from Barbados to Saint Lucia. He originally was trying to do the Cuba to Florida swim, but permitting and with, you know, the stuff with Trump and the Cuban stuff just kind of fell apart. And so he pivoted, but it was like a hundred and. A hundred and five miles, something, something like that. Again, I'm probably getting a few of these details a little wrong, but it was like exceptional.

• 1:27:30Colin O'Brady?

  And the stories he has from that, obviously, I wrote about this guy, you know, 12 hours a day for, you know, two weeks. I heard all of his stories. Such an incredible guy, great spirit, really, really warm person. He's like, he's got like, he was telling me every 30 minutes, he got so many rashes on his mouth from being in the water for so long, for 50 some hours. He's taking these gobs of Vaseline and he's literally putting like handfuls and fistfuls of Vaseline into his mouth. And it would like deteriorate with the saltwater and so he'd keep extra smeared around his beard and he would like, kind of like suction it from his beard into his mouth. And then get another handful of Vaseline. I mean, it was like brutal. He ended up in the, he finished it, which is extraordinary. But then I think he ended up in the hospital for a few days just because of like the jellyfish stings and this. But talk about a guy who is a mental and physical absolute stallion.

• 1:28:16Colin O'Brady?

  So we're on Sea Anchor this day, day five or day six or something like that. One of the days when we had to wait out one of the storms, when the storms and the winds were against us. And we're getting ready to pull up to Sea Anchor. So the storm is finally cleared enough that we think it's, we're going to be able to row in the next couple of hours. So it's not huge swells at the time, but we're kind of coming off an intense storm on the rowboat. And he's this renowned ocean water swimmer at this point. And he's like, hey Colin, how cold do you think the water is? And I was like, whoa. Cold enough to not want to know anymore. I don't know. It splashed across my face in that storm last night. It was like, you know, the coldest thing ever. Like it felt horrible. No one wants to be wet and cold splashing in the face. We're taking this on.

• 1:28:54Colin O'Brady?

  And I was like, I was like, I know we're not fully to Antarctica and I know there it's, you know, one degree. So I don't know, like maybe, maybe it's like 38 Fahrenheit or you know, four Celsius or whatever the conversion is, like something like that. I was like, I don't know, something stupid cold. Right. You know, and he's like, he's like, I think I'm gonna go for a swim. And I was like, what? And he's like, dude, we're in the middle of trade passage, man. Like you only live once, man. Like when am I ever going to be back here? Like I love swimming. Like I'm going to swim. And at first I was like, I think he's serious. And I was like, if you're gonna do this, let me grab my iPhone. It's like I'll film this. But second of all, it's like, but dude, think this through first because like you gotta get back in the rowboat and there's no like warming you up.

• 1:29:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how is he gonna warm up?

• 1:29:37Colin O'Brady?

  There's no like heater, there's no this that like could jeopardize kind of all of this. He was like, he was like, dude, like, I've got it. And I was like, if you believe in yourself, bro, like, all for it. I will be here cheering you on. And so sure enough, strips down, butt naked. He put his, he has a, he brought a swim cap and goggles, which I didn't know. So he must've been thinking about this. Pulls out a swim cap and goggles from the basement thing, the South African flag on his head, goggles on, nothing else, completely butt naked. And just does a full, you know, dive, jumps into the ocean, you know, swims around. He wasn't in there for a long time, you know, maybe 30 seconds or a minute, but plenty long. Trust me, I wasn't looking to go for a swim there. And so what a legend, man. He swam in the middle of Drake passage. It's been one of the episodes that that discovery did. And I'm sure it'll be in the feature.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  And then how did he, so he gets out, does he get right into the dry suit? Like, how does that work?

• 1:30:23Colin O'Brady?

  Gets out and he had.

• 1:30:25Rich Roll?

  He must be like a big dude with a lot of.

• 1:30:27Colin O'Brady?

  He's a, he's a big dude. Yeah. He's like 220 pounds, like kind of broad, you know, tall. He put on some weight for the rowing project specifically. He's done some other roads where he's lost some weight. So, you know, he had some weight on him. He's strong, fit guy more than anything. He's not like fat at all, but um, I don't know, man. He's just a beast. Like he's just, he just got out with like a big, guy kept smiling the entire time. He just gets out like, oh, that was cool, man. Like whatever. And we, uh, we, uh, you know, had a Canada Goose as a sponsor. So he jives in the bow cabin, wraps himself in a bunch of down jackets and shivers a little bit. And he's like, so we rowing? Let's go. Like he's just ready to go. It's complete savage.

• 1:31:03Rich Roll?

  Uh, on the other side of that, your boy Andrew had a little trouble with his ankle, right?

• 1:31:09Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:09Rich Roll?

  What happened there?

• 1:31:11Colin O'Brady?

  I think you're, um, I think maybe you're thinking of Jamie. Um, yeah. So.

• 1:31:15Rich Roll?

  Oh yeah, it was Jamie. Yeah.

• 1:31:16Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, no, he, uh, so we got these boots, um, and none of us had ever, and it's a silly thing, but we actually hadn't tried them out because we did a test row together in Scotland for a day, but it wasn't like super, super wet and rainy as Scotland always is. It was like 55 degrees. So we kind of researched the best ocean rowing or ocean boot that we could find. It was for like cold water sailing. Um, and we had, none of us had actually ever tried them on. And before this row, because we just, there was no climate to actually truly test them in. And all my like mountaineering expeditions, things like that, I always try to test my gear. But this is like one piece of gear, there's no like opportune time to test. And there's no, since no one's ever done this before, it wasn't like asking the guy like, so what boot did you wear when you rode a boat across Drake Passage?

• 1:32:01Colin O'Brady?

  So you got these boots and they just started digging into his ankle like super, super, super bad. And I, he never mentioned it. I mean, God, Jamie is, it was amazing to be with a group of guys that actually had such an orientation towards positivity because Jamie sat right in front of me and then Cameron was right in front of me. The three of us were on our shift and then John, Andrew and Fionn were on the opposite shift. And Jamie sat right in front of me, so closest to me and didn't say anything about it, laughing, playing, joking around, whatever. He's like, oh, and finally at one point, he's like, kind of like, you know, my ankle hurts. And I, you know, and I'm like, you all right? And he's like, oh, it just kind of feels like maybe there's a little blister or this or that. Finally, after like 10 days or something like that, he finally takes off

• 1:32:41Colin O'Brady?

  his boot and shows somebody and he is like literally like ripped off all of the skin, all of everything. Feet have been wet and cold for so long. And we were getting in the cabin on our 90 minute downtimes, myself included. We weren't like taking off our gear. We had these like, these crazy, you know, dry suits on, we had these boots on, we this. So we'd just be soaking wet and just like lie down and try to eat something real quick and get, you know, get to sleep for a few minutes. And so he had been doing the same thing that any of the rest of us has, but turns out, I mean, I don't know how he got through it, but he had just ripped apart his ankle. And so when he finally pulled it off, it was Yeah, I read that it was down to the bone. Yeah, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty gnarly. And for him to like not say anything? Yeah. And like, it wasn't like he didn't say anything, but then stopped rowing or

• 1:33:24Colin O'Brady?

  didn't say anything of this. Like he rode the entire time with, you know, a smile on his face. And this, I mean, he is a, he is, he's, he's an interesting lineage. His grandfather actually was the first person to fly over Mount Everest in a fixed plane in like the 1930s. And those photographs were actually used to help Sir Edmund Hillary on the initial climb. He's from Scotland. Jamie is a just interesting story with kind of exploration in general and his family lineage. But, but yeah, somehow, I mean, he was just like locked in and was like, oh, my ankle hurts a little bit. Like me, the one time I heard of it and like, bro, like.

• 1:34:01Colin O'Brady?

  At what point you're just like, hey, could someone help me?

• 1:34:03Rich Roll?

  I'd be like, you know, twenty minutes in, like, this boot doesn't feel good.

• 1:34:07Colin O'Brady?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:34:10Rich Roll?

  Wow. What was the gnarliest part? Like, was there ever a moment where you thought you were just in over your head here? Literally, figuratively?

• 1:34:17Colin O'Brady?

  To me, there were two moments. Um, I mean, there's a lot of moments, but I've had to like, kind of circle on, you know, two really kind of full-on moments. Um, one was the first, like, major storm we rowed in. And for me, it was, you know, a, I'd never been in the open ocean like that. And all of a sudden, like, it's three days in, or three or four days, I can't remember the exact day, they kind of all blend together since there's 24-hour, non-stop of rowing, um, weird sleep schedule. But, um, just massive swells kicked up. Like I said, that feeling of like, riding this roller coaster, and it's like, fun for a little bit. And then I remember this moment, so John and I, John was the school principal, um, we would switch the same seat as each other. Like, he was always in the bow seat on the opposite shift. And I remember the middle of the storm, and to get to my seat is like, you know,

• 1:35:01Colin O'Brady?

  just like getting jostled around, just like switching into my seat. You think I might, that's when you could easily fall off the ball that we were clipped in with a safety line. And John looks over at me, and he's also, you know, amazing rower, like I said, but he's not been in a massive storm like this either. And he kind of looks at me with like, this death-defying look, and he's like, he's like, "How do we get out? How do we make this stop?" You know? And I was like, "I think we just keep rowing." Like, it was just kind of one of those moments of just like, uh, inarticulate, but like, I think it was, uh, the subtext was, "I'm afraid, I think the only way to stay safe is to keep rowing, or keep our, the boat from turning and getting rolled over in this." And so that was a really intense-

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  Because you're like, rowing, but it's, it's not exactly making you go forward or anything.

• 1:35:39Colin O'Brady?

  No, and it's like, building and the swell's, you know, you, obviously it builds, right? And so it's like, "Oh, this is getting back. Oh, this is pretty big. Oh, this is really big. Oh, is, is it gonna keep getting bigger like this?" And the craziest thing happened in that moment, which is ultimately kind of joyful in reflection, but it was bizarre. It was this ma, this storm, really cloudy and, you know, gray, and it was getting dark. There's not a lot of darkness, but when they're a little bit further north, we had about two or three hours of darkness in the first week or so. And it was, you know, getting, getting towards dark or dusk anyways. And all of a sudden, this huge cruise ship comes like out of like a ghost ship out of this. And we hear this

• 1:36:20Colin O'Brady?

  And at first we were freaks. I'm like, oh my God, it looks like they're coming like straight for us. They don't see us. Thankfully, they actually have been tracking the project. And it was a cruise ship that was like taking passengers to the Antarctic Peninsula. And they came by to like, we heard that there's these crazy knuckleheads, you know, rowing a boat across Drake Passage. And they came to like, check us out. So we're in the middle of this storm, kind of like hanging out with Dear Life John. I'm like, how do we get out of this? All of a sudden, there's a cruise ship like These people on vacation. And people are on the deck and like dressed in these, all these nice coats. And they're just waving and they're like, hey, like, it's like the most bizarre feeling. I actually just started crying in this moment. I'm not sure why. I've just the kind of pure like strange, bizarre, scared, happy, elated. The juxtaposition of those two things.

• 1:37:04Colin O'Brady?

  It was just a super weird. And then the other point, the other piece that for me actually was the absolute scariest part of the entire expedition was the very last day. We are, we're getting close to Antarctica. So there's outer islands of Antarctica, actually, that are off the peninsula. And so about 100 miles from our finish point, we wanted to finish on the actual continent of Antarctica, on the actual true landmass on the peninsula. There's outer islands. And so we finally approached those. And when we saw land, it was amazing. You know, I hadn't seen land for, you know, 12 days or 11 days, or whatever it was. And it was like, oh my God, there it is. There's just, I mean, Antarctica, particularly, I'd never seen, you know, the peninsula like this. And it's just, you know, all of a sudden, you've got icebergs jutting out, you've got, you know, tons of sea life, penguins,

• 1:37:48Colin O'Brady?

  you've got these huge mountains. It's just like kind of a dream landscape. And it's amazing to see that after not seeing anything for so many days. But we still have 100 miles to go. So it's kind of like, we're here. Oh, we're not here because we still have to row for like a day and a half. And the weather's actually looking like it might turn and all these things. So we keep rowing. And finally, we're within about, you know, I remember maybe eight hours from, you know, proposed, we're maybe like within 20 miles or 15 miles or something like that of the finish. And the weather is not great. And what's happening is there's basically, there's big icebergs, you know, there's some big massive icebergs, which are a little bit easier to steer around. But there's also some smaller pieces of ice and things like that. And obviously, we don't want to damage our boat right at the end. And this is kind of one of the trickier spots. So what was happening is

• 1:38:33Colin O'Brady?

  Fionn and I were alternating each other being in the stern cabin, you know, with the navigation. We had a rudder that we could like control and we could put on GPS or we could like do it manually. And so we were communicating, whichever one wasn't rowing would be like, okay, even though our course would take us towards that iceberg, turn 10 degrees to the right or turn 10 degrees to the left or whatever. And it would kind of like, we'd be able to steer around it. Because you can't see where you're going because you're rowing backwards, right? And so I had been doing that. And this time, we were all so sleep deprived. It was like 4:30 in the morning. We hadn't slept in so long. And I had been like trying to steer while, and so I'm not sleeping during my shift because I'm trying to help steer. Then all of a sudden, we start going, me, Cameron and Jamie on our shift, and we're rowing, we're rowing, rowing. Now we're like, you know, five hours away from the finish. We're kind of getting pretty excited. And we're kind of putting a lot of power into

• 1:39:18Colin O'Brady?

  ours, just kind of cranking on it and whatever. And then all of a sudden, we hear the alarm of the Braveheart, the supervising vessel, just go as loud as possible. And we're like, oh, my God, like, what is that? Like, is there an emergency like on their boat? And thank God, like Jamie looks over his left shoulder, and we're like 10 feet away from a massive iceberg. And I'm talking like, I mean, you say the tip of the iceberg is, you know, like 90% of it's underwater. But even what was above water was like, you know, God, I don't know, like. Three, four stories high and like a hundred foot wide and I can just see this ocean current just getting like sucked underneath it in the bow, which we were jamming to it.

• 1:39:59Colin O'Brady?

  Andrew and Cameron are like blissfully, or John Cameron, or John, excuse me, John and Andrew are like blissfully asleep in the cabin. It was like we smashed into it, this iceberg is just gonna crash the front of our boat and like just split it in half. And all of a sudden, it was like, back up, back up, back up, back up. We're trying to paddle and reverse in the other direction. So. How does it come up on you so quickly, though? I mean, I know you're not, you're not, you're looking backwards, but like, something that large? It's two things. We're just out in the middle of nowhere? Yeah, so we're, two things. One is that Fionn had fallen asleep. And again, we were delirious. And that's not me pointing the blame. Like he had, like, we're gone all like in and out of this like weird consciousness. And it was like, I mean, I'd fallen asleep for a few minutes and, you know, looking out there and as well as you

• 1:40:42Colin O'Brady?

  were just, we're just locked in. So we're going backwards. And again, it was probably our fault as well as like not, you know, we had some mirrors that we actually could try to see, but they were like fogged up. It was just kind of a lot of things conspiring. But also, more than anything, it would be, what I would say, it is so easy to let your guard down towards the end of an expedition. You're like, we've made it. Like, we're in Antarctic waters, whatever. And a similar thing. It falls flat. Totally. And the, a, the interesting parallel in my own life, I did a crossing of Greenland, um, when I was, uh, praying for the Antarctic expedition. It's, you know, a month long crossing 400 miles of Greenland. And I got to what was my last day, my last night. I'm like, oh, tomorrow I'm gonna complete this, or I'm gonna finish this and get out of here and get picked up and leave. I'm 27 days in and fine the entire time. And that

• 1:41:26Colin O'Brady?

  night, I go to bed and every single night, I had been diligently pushing around to find crevasses or things like that. Make sure I didn't set up my tent in the wrong place, whatever. I'm like, oh, it's my last night, whatever. I've been out here in Greenland, that's what's happened. I set up my, getting ready to set up my tent, all this kind of stuff, taking my tent out of my sled. It was calm weather, so I wasn't like too worried about stuff blowing away. I just kind of like let my guard down. All of a sudden, boom, fall through a crevasse all the way to my shoulders. I put my arms out and catch myself and I look down and my entire body is hanging over 200 feet of nothing underneath me. I had fallen in this crevasse, like no one's finding me down there. I don't have my sat phone, I don't have any of my gear, like nothing. Um, fortunately, literally up to my shoulders, I, you know, grabbed myself, arms completely out, pulled my dick, I was able to pull myself out. Laying flat on the snow and the ice.

• 1:42:11Colin O'Brady?

  Um, and it was, you know, a close call and nothing tragic happened, but it's, you know, an inch from failure in that moment. And it's another example. I guess I should have learned the lesson the first time and not have to learn it again on the Drake. But it's like so easy. You're like, ah, I'm nearly there. Great. Or like last few hours of rowing, this is like two more shifts. Let's just put our back into it whenever like smash into an iceberg, like just so close and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, it's a definitely a good lesson. And that was, that was that iceberg moment was definitely a scary one, the scariest moments, you know, period.

• 1:42:41Rich Roll?

  So 12 days, 600 miles? How many miles was it?

• 1:42:45Colin O'Brady?

  So it's hard because I think the crossing is defined specifically, the distance we did in a straight line was 650 miles.

• 1:42:52Rich Roll?

  But I saw the map, you're tacking all over the place.

• 1:42:55Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah. So I think we actually rode something more like 750, whatever. But I had in the classification of the record. And ultimately I think there were six world records and three world firsts associated with the crossing and the derivative records of each other. Um, I don't pay too much attention to little granular details of that, but the way that the ocean rowing society, which is a world that I'm actually not that familiar with, obviously. They calculate it just what's the straight line distance. So the straight line distance 650 miles. I think we rode something like a couple of times on sea acre. We got blown back like 15 miles and rode forward to the side with the winds and currents and stuff like that. So, um, far enough.

• 1:43:28Rich Roll?

  So you finish and in another stroke of marketing genius, you pull like a copy of the book that you had in the boat.

• 1:43:37Rich Roll?

  And I'm like, come on, man. Really? I was like, that is unbelievable. And you're like, you could win a copy of the book. I brought it with you. You gotta let me laugh about it a little bit, man.

• 1:43:49Colin O'Brady?

  You can laugh at me.

• 1:43:50Rich Roll?

  I was like, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. How many? You brought a couple of copies with you, right?

• 1:43:54Colin O'Brady?

  I brought three copies. Uh, they were actually the advanced reader copies. They weren't the final draft and they actually say published date 1/28/20, which, you know, they moved the publication date up. So there's three copies. We were doing a preorder campaign. Anyone who pre-ordered the book was entered to a win one of the signed copies that actually came to Drake. So my book about Antarctica, Return to Antarctica. Um, and, uh, of course we had to take a photo and share it out in the world.

• 1:44:17Rich Roll?

  Of course, man. Who, who won those copies?

• 1:44:19Colin O'Brady?

  Um, some amazing people. Yeah. There was, uh, uh, they got, got caught spread around. Um, this are really, um, really cool girl named Inez Galmiche. I was like, I'm so about the names, right? I think I mispronounced them. Um, she had one, we, you know, everyone that. Sent into this email address that we set up, got entered in the contest with the preorder and then we did a random drawing from that, but it was really cool, you know, some people that won had just kind of written something in there like, oh, hey, like this and we emailed back and forth and she had a really cool story that kind of touched my heart. She said her and her brother, her brother had started following me, I guess, on my Antarctic crossing last year and she had never heard of this, but he kind of came home every night and was like really like talking about this over their family holiday because it coincided with Christmas and the holidays and stuff like that. And, you know, she felt feeling

• 1:45:04Colin O'Brady?

  a little bit disconnected from her brother, she said, and that like really brought them closer together, just kind of having this thing to check in with every single day and talk about and all this kind of stuff. So she entered for the drawing so that she could give it as a gift to her brother. And so it was super cool. And then one another, another guy, this, this touched me. His name was, I think it's Dave Goatsman, I remember because his Instagram handle was the at the underscore goat man. I think he's like ultra runner, something like that in New York State, but he, you know, most people were sending in like Amazon preorder links and stuff like that, which is awesome, great, a normal way to preorder a book for sure, but you can also preorder it, of course, on independent booksellers and other places around and that's where all the books is sold. And he, and I think

• 1:45:49Colin O'Brady?

  he lived in Lake Placid in an hour at a local bookstore. And so he had called up the local bookstore to preorder the book to the local bookstore, which, which touched me because I was like, oh, wow, my book is, you know, in the small bookstore in Lake Placid. So that's a new experience for me. I suppose you've experienced that yourself, seeing your own book in other places, but that was new for me. And he had said, he had sent this funny, you know, we randomly selected the email, we opened the email just to check to make sure that it had like the right, you know, actually pre order the book and whatever, so we could send him the prize. And he had sent like a text message chain and like a picture of a receipt from this little bookstore. And he was like, does this count? Like, I just want to make sure like this is actually the preorder, but from like, you know, like a handwritten receipt and whatever, it was totally legit. He actually

• 1:46:32Colin O'Brady?

  did preorder the book, but I just thought it was cool that, you know, he went to his like local shop and it was in there as well. So there's some amazing people wanted, I was just grateful for the love and support around the book. And it's, you know, just, just getting out into the world now, their last five days or so. So it's just, I guess it's just beginning, but.

• 1:46:49Rich Roll?

  So you're doing the thing, you're in New York, you're, you know, doing all the shows and all that kind of stuff. And most of that stuff is, you know, the five minute, you know, thing, you're kind of in, you're out, they ask you the same question, what's next? And all of that. What do you think like? Like, do you ever leave those experiences thinking like, like, I wish they'd asked me this? Or why doesn't, you know, here's what I think people are missing. Like, do you think you're ever like misunderstood? Or is there anything that like, you feel like you wish you were asked more, but it doesn't come up? Or like, where are people like not connecting in the way that you want them to connect?

• 1:47:25Colin O'Brady?

  I mean, I will say this now, and this is not just lip service because I'm sitting here in front of you. Because I've told you this in when you and I have spending time in Prague, when you and I are climbing, you know, 29029 together, Utah this summer, or, you know, the other times you spent this, that I genuinely think in the cover of Outside Magazine calling you the Oprah of endurance sports, I think is actually very apropos because you are an extraordinary interviewer and actually go in extreme depth. So I've been humbled to be a guest on your show. And I think the question, although I know you weren't asking it in a self-serving way at all, but I genuinely think you are just extraordinary, exceptional at this. And it's a gift. It's a beautiful gift of your insight and your presence with all of your guests. I have been not just a guest, but a massive fan of your podcast for a long time, but.

• 1:48:05Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. That was not, I wasn't fishing, you know, I wasn't like doing that, but.

• 1:48:09Colin O'Brady?

  But I think that.

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  It is like when you, if you're going to talk for two hours.

• 1:48:12Colin O'Brady?

  Totally, totally. But what I do think, and I think particularly around the book that I do, you know, I, this book is a harrowing tale. Like, it is me raw. There is some crazy things that happen out there that I had, you know, never really, you know, spoke super openly or at least super in-depth about, about this story. And I wanted to be raw and real, and I wanted it to read in a way that kept people's attention. So I, you know, hopefully, and certainly the feedback we've gotten is that it's page turning and it's engaging. It's not a how-to book. It's not a prescriptive, you know, self-help book by any means. It is, you know, edge of your seat type of book. But sometimes in these interviews, like that quick, you know, you know, three-minute, four-minute spots, I'm grateful for that, you know, attention.

• 1:48:54Colin O'Brady?

  I do think that people want to like, they're like, so we're here with adrenaline daredevil crazy, you know, thrill seeker Colin O'Brien. And I think. Even the headline on the Today Show, which was so cool to be on the Today Show and be able to share this when the book launches, but I think then they put it up online, it said like Daredevil Colin O'Brady Returns from whatever. And to me, that does a little bit miss the point of what's going on here. I think that I'm going out in the world and obviously pushing my body and, you know, trying to stretch limits of my own potential out in the world, but there is so much more to that. And so with the book, it's not frustrating, but you know, for me, your question was, do people miss something? And it's, it's that if they do miss the essence of what this real, this story is about, and I've

• 1:49:38Colin O'Brady?

  been, you know, grateful to see some reviews and stuff of the book go much deeper than saying like, wow, like I thought I was reading this, but actually this book kept my attention as an adventure enthusiast, but it was so interesting to see all these other layers in the fabric of this book. And it had me crying and it had me laughing and it had me this. And I don't think sometimes I wish that people would kind of go to that. And I understand why they wouldn't initially, you know, in a three minute interview, but you know, that's the part of stuff that I really care about.

• 1:50:05Rich Roll?

  Click, click, click.

• 1:50:06Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it requires bandwidth and subtlety, you know, to really grok the whole thing.

• 1:50:14Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:15Rich Roll?

  And that's why I love doing it this way.

• 1:50:17Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:50:18Rich Roll?

  Well, let's round this out and end it with some thoughts on the untapped reservoirs of human potential that reside within all of us. I think those are, those are themes that we share in our advocacy and in our work and in our writing and in our speaking. So maybe reflect on that a little bit. And maybe also, since you've just come out of this Drake experience, has any of that like shifted or, or changed a little bit from when you wrote it in the book or where you were at last year compared to this year?

• 1:50:53Colin O'Brady?

  You mean the sort of

• 1:50:55Rich Roll?

  Just in terms of how you kind of reflect on, on, on transformation?

• 1:51:00Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  And, you know, the potential that resides within us and, and, you know, how we can, how we can better access and express that in our lives.

• 1:51:07Colin O'Brady?

  You know, it's something that I've certainly said a lot and something that I know that you've said a lot and something that I've Inspired by in your work as well is like that advocacy around that that belief that you know each one of us have these reservoirs of untapped potential inside of us. The Drake Crossing was interesting. And you know, I've been asked this question and derivative is, you know, Colin, like, are you a superhuman or oh, like, what's your physiology that makes you so much different? But I also get this really funny thing. And it actually happened to me.

• 1:51:37Colin O'Brady?

  Two days ago in DC, I was doing this interview. And journalist was interviewing me for Fox. And he's like, you know, I don't really, I don't mean to say something, hope I'm not offending. He's like stumbling over as I've had people say the same thing. I kind of know what I was expecting. I'm like, it's just that when I read your story, I don't take this the wrong way. But you're like a regular size, normal looking guy.

• 1:52:06Colin O'Brady?

  I'm like, I'm not offended. He was like, it's just that like, I figured like, you know, some like six.

• 1:52:11Rich Roll?

  Guy's gonna come out, it's a Winkleville.

• 1:52:16Colin O'Brady?

  And I've had people come up to me after speeches and things like that and say that. And to me, which certainly is not offensive.

• 1:52:22Rich Roll?

  Although I will say, in the in the photos in the book, there's a picture of you on the bike, like racing ITU, and your shoulders are looking pretty dead.

• 1:52:29Colin O'Brady?

  That's because I just came out of a crazy open water swim. It's like full of blood.

• 1:52:34Colin O'Brady?

  No, that's not not to say that I've like, I'm not fit. I haven't this. It's just that like, you're not like, oh, God, you're like some like specimen.

• 1:52:40Rich Roll?

  Physically imposing person.

• 1:52:41Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah. And.

• 1:52:43Rich Roll?

  It goes back to that the aspirational aspect of.

• 1:52:46Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Rich Roll?

  What you do.

• 1:52:47Colin O'Brady?

  And I think that, you know, in, you know, I've said it kind of tongue in cheek, but I do believe it as well. And I do believe it actually not just tongue in cheek, but in truth and say like, Colin, are you superhuman? I'm like, yeah, I'm a superhuman. And so are you. Like, these reservoirs of untapped potential reside inside of all of us. And the Drake Passage Row, to kind of have that through line was for me in writing this book about the impossible first, which obviously I wrote before I did the Drake Passage Row. I. Really was, you know, I still have this thesis of saying like, okay, like I am giving this wisdom, I'm sharing my story in the hope that someone takes the impossible first book, sets it down and starts off on their own impossible first. But where is the proof in the pudding of that in my own story? Obviously, there's a lot of through lines being burned in a fire, being told never walk in, recovering, etc.

• 1:53:32Colin O'Brady?

  But the Drake row was actually an exercising at this point in my life of this thesis of saying, okay, I tell people all of the time, you have a massive goal, but you haven't started on it yet, or you're a beginner, or you have this huge idea, but you're a novice and you look at all the other people who are so much better than you. Like, I'm sure people say to you all the time, like, God, I want to start a podcast, but like podcasts are so saturated right now, where like, you know, you've already got millions of listeners, like, how could I ever catch up to you? And you're like, yeah, but like in 2012, or whenever it was, I was sitting in Kauai in like a garage and I like hit play on a tape recorder with my kids around and like started talking into a microphone. And so for me, the Drake row was my own way of saying like, yes, I'm not trying to pretend like I don't have other accomplishments in my past.

• 1:54:13Colin O'Brady?

  We all have a path that has led us to today, to this moment, who we are. But can you then put something on the proverbial whiteboard for yourself that allows you to stretch and reach and to grow, that actually exercises that muscle of taking that step towards it? And for me, it was to step into a place of endurance sports that I've never touched, not even tangentially with ocean and rowing and etc. And so I believe, I mean, I core believe that we have these reservoirs of untapped potential and the muscle, it's not the physical imposition, imposing, you know, character that I could or couldn't be, I guess, just the person that I am. But I say that the muscle that's the most important to any of us is the six inches between our ears.

• 1:54:55Colin O'Brady?

  It's within our minds, it's what we can create, and I think that that really dictates a lot of this. I, yeah, that's what I believe.

• 1:55:02Rich Roll?

  Phenomenally articulated. I mean, I look at the Drake. Passage experience as basically the manifestation or a manifestation of this sort of Angela Duckworth, Carol Dweck, like growth mindset. Like you're not a rower, right? Like you're an athlete. Like it would have been easier for you to pick some other kind of like expedition with, which is you just, you know, doing what you've always kind of done.

• 1:55:28Colin O'Brady?

  People like you're gonna do a bigger expedition in the North Pole.

• 1:55:30Rich Roll?

  Whatever. Right, exactly. But to put yourself in a situation that, that, you know, in many ways is just completely unfamiliar and new. I think it's really cool and impressive. And I think that does convey that message of like, hey, man, I, you know, like, I'm, you know, I'm trying to learn this stuff as well. And I'm gonna put, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be, you know, I'm going to walk the talk, basically.

• 1:55:50Colin O'Brady?

  Totally. And I think also, the other thing is, I think we've all had that kind of, you know, imposter syndrome of in a room of certain people, you're like, well, I don't belong here. I'm not good enough to be here. I think anyone has ever walked into a cocktail party or something has had that feeling at some point in their life. You know, I certainly have a lot of times. And, you know, even on my Instagram, if you saw when I posted, hey, I'm doing this project and here's this amazing team that have come together and here's what all these other guys have accomplished. I mean, you brought it up earlier in this interview. I'm not offended by it at all. And someone's like, well, you're obviously the weak link, like in all of this. And so the easiest thing for me to do would have been to say, I was literally the first person in history ever to cross Antarctica solo. People have died

• 1:56:30Colin O'Brady?

  attempting this exact crossing and I did it. So let me be now the master of that domain. Why would I line myself side by side up in a situation next to guys who are like, been spending decades crushing this sport that they're exceptionally good with, with world record hold, you know, records around their neck and accolades, you know, you know, list of accolades is, you know, a page long. But it's like, having the humility to say like, but I still want to grow. I still want to learn. I still want to like, learn from them. And hopefully, I am bringing something, you know, valuable to the table beyond just, you know, sort of the logistics or resources to be able to do something like this. And, but humbly, I'm going to come into this. And I think, you know, if they were sitting here, they would say, well, yeah, like from a physical level, mental level, we all learned

• 1:57:15Colin O'Brady?

  something from each other. But it takes, it's a humbling moment to go, when I don't have to go stand next to people in this other domain, be able to be in my own little area. And so I think. In any avenue, as we begin to set out on things, people can feel that way. People can feel like, oh, you know, like you were, you're like, you're probably a great lawyer at what you were doing. You hated it.

• 1:57:37Rich Roll?

  Not so much.

• 1:57:38Colin O'Brady?

  Whatever. I mean, you have done it for quite a long time, you know, and to like, just redefine your identity, you know, you turn into an incredible endurance athlete. But I imagine, I don't know the story of your very first triathlon, but I imagine it was like, you were like, I'm just a guy at a triathlon. How do you like, put my shoes on, you know, whatever. And so it's, it's taking that, but that is how these interesting moments grow. And so don't be held back by being like, I don't know how to do this right now. I'm not good at this. My neighbor's better than me at the guy around the water cooler. He's the expert at this, that, or the other thing. It's like, why not? Start somewhere. He started somewhere. He had day one at his job or his expert or his skill at some point as well. Like your day could be today.

• 1:58:16Rich Roll?

  I thought you'd be bigger.

• 1:58:19Colin O'Brady?

  Sorry to disappoint.

• 1:58:21Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man. Thank you. Beautiful. I love you, Colin O'Brady.

• 1:58:26Colin O'Brady?

  I love you too, my man.

• 1:58:26Rich Roll?

  Thank you for your example, all the incredible work and advocacy that you do, and I know will continue to do. The book is Extraordinary, The Impossible First. I love it, man. And I'm just, I'm happy to be in your life.

• 1:58:39Colin O'Brady?

  Likewise.

• 1:58:40Rich Roll?

  Grateful for our friendship and I wish you the best of luck. Please pick up, oh, you have Angela Duckworth right there on the cover. Author of great.

• 1:58:49Colin O'Brady?

  Thought you were ripping off that.

• 1:58:50Rich Roll?

  No, no, no. I was like, well, you were talking about growth mindset, so I had that on my brain.

• 1:58:54Colin O'Brady?

  I was deeply grateful for her.

• 1:58:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's very cool. Phenomenal, man. If you want to hook up with Colin, at Colin O'Brady on Instagram is probably the best place, right? You have your website, colinobrady.com.

• 1:59:07Colin O'Brady?

  ColinOBrady.com, yep.

• 1:59:08Rich Roll?

  Boom. All right. Love you. Peace.

• 1:59:14Rich Roll?

  All right. Hope you guys enjoyed that. Now, as promised, I give you our subsequent exchange in which Colin and I discuss the National Geographic piece on Colin and his response.

• 1:59:27Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Colin O'Brady back in the house. How's it going? Good, man. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for taking the time to come back here and fill in the gaps a little bit. Always a pleasure, my friend. You know, being in the Rich Roll Podcast studio, it's like a second home. Love this place. It's been an interesting month for you. Some high highs and some hiccups along the way. And I thought it the right thing to do, the wise thing to do, to provide you the opportunity to come in and fill in the gaps and, you know, provide us with your perspective on the events that have kind of unfolded over the last month or so. Yeah, absolutely. No, I appreciate it. Of course, man. Of course.

• 2:00:09Rich Roll?

  Just for context, and so everyone kind of understands what we're talking about, let's provide a little timeline. So you came in, well, first of all, you did the Drake Passage between December 9th and 25th, right? Yes, of this, of 2019. Right. So you finished that like Christmas time. Exactly. I was in Australia. I invited you to come back on the podcast. You came in on January 18th. We recorded the conversation that you just listened to. And I planned to publish that podcast on February 9th, but on February 2nd is when National Geographic published this article

• 2:00:49Rich Roll?

  about you that we're going to talk about. And I made the decision at that time to kind of put a pin in the podcast and table it until I got, you know, a sense of the lay of the land. It just didn't feel, it felt like had I put that podcast up at that time, it would have been tone deaf without really understanding the terrain. And also, I mean, not in service to the audience, but also, you know, not in service to you as well. We talked about it. And in the wake of that conversation, then you published a response to the Nat Geo article that was on the 14th. We talked again. The Polar Explorer community

• 2:01:31Rich Roll?

  has also issued their perspective on this. That went up a couple of days ago. And let's talk about it, man.

• 2:01:39Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's like you said, it's been, it's been an interesting month for sure. You know, I think when I was on the podcast, like you said, it's January 18th. My book had come out on January 14th. You know, poured my heart and soul into writing this book, which I'm so, so deeply proud of, and certainly stand behind every single word that I wrote. And then I'm literally walking my dog. I think you said February 2nd, in my mind, it was February 3rd, but it's one of those dates.

• 2:02:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right around there.

• 2:02:07Colin O'Brady?

  I was walking my dog, Jack, with my wife Jenna, back at home in Jackson Hole. And we had just heard the news a few days earlier that my book had hit the New York Times Bestsellers list. You know, kind of obviously a proud moment for us. And that Friday, I was going to be back at my hometown bookstore in Portland, Oregon, Powell's Books, which most people know about books, even if you've never been to Portland, have kind of heard of that bookstore. And so I was just looking forward, you know, being home, walked around that bookstore my entire life, you know, as a kid, and all of a sudden I'm going back to address my hometown audience as a New York Times bestselling author, very humbling and kind of proud moment. And then, you know, ping Google alert, you know, comes in and there's this National Geographic article

• 2:02:50Colin O'Brady?

  that is long form, 7,000 words, which is, you know, takes you a half hour to read it or something like that. And, you know, it's, it's incredibly scathing. And what was the most shocking for me is that it was just widely, widely inaccurate. And, you know, as a human being, it's, it's hurtful, obviously.

• 2:03:08Rich Roll?

  Right, so the article is called "The Problem with Colin O'Brien." And it, it sets about sort of deconstructing this narrative around kind of what you've accomplished and what it means. And they have a variety of arguments, and I think it would be good to kind of just walk our, walk our way through them. And we should say at the outset that there's nothing in the article, and there's nobody out there sort of saying, like, you didn't do what you did. Like, you crossed Antarctica, 932 miles, 54 days, 300 pound slide, like, nobody's saying you didn't do any, like, the feat stands, right? So it's, it's more about the story around the feat and how it's been positioned,

• 2:03:51Rich Roll?

  and, and also how it's been, your story has been received by the explorer community.

• 2:03:58Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, we can definitely go through that. I think the kind of initial, obviously, you know, reading through the article as it hits, you know, Google Alerts and whatnot and it pops up, you know, two paragraphs in, the second paragraph of the entire article gives you kind of a sense of the level of unethical journalism out there. You know, you've got two paragraphs, two quotes from my book, one from page 50 and one from page 214, conflated into one singular message that were about completely separate parts. And so the totality of the article kind of follows the same methodology, which is I was never, I was never properly interviewed for this, it was never fact-checked, I was never contacted by a fact-checker in the conflating quotes. I mean, it was a shame overall. But really, kind of what it boils down to, and what kind of makes me the most

• 2:04:40Colin O'Brady?

  sad about this entire thing, is there's kind of this mainline premise that I'm somehow taking something away from this incredible Norwegian explorer by the name of Borgaussland. And so who Borgaussland is, is a Norwegian explorer who in 1996, 1997, over the course of that Antarctic season, so, you know, 20 years long before I, you know, even knew about really exploration in Antarctica the way I do now, obviously, I was 10, 11 years old, he did this crossing of Antarctica, which is absolutely extraordinary. He crossed not only the landmass of Antarctica, which is what I crossed, 932 miles, but he also crossed the ice shelves. So there's these ice shelves, the Raannai shelf and the Ross

• 2:05:25Colin O'Brady?

  Ice Shelf, and his entire journey was about 1,800 miles. And, you know, one of the premises of the article is that I never give him enough credit, or I haven't congratulated him enough on his epic accomplishment, I don't speak about him, which is just, you know, factually inaccurate and untrue, and it's really a shame. Even you and I, actually, on our podcast, I think a year ago, talked about Borgaussland and my admiration for him. I haven't re-listened to that, but I'm pretty certain that you and I talked about it actually a year ago, even on this podcast. And I've been a vocal advocate. What separates the two of us and why they're different is that there's, you know, ALE, which is Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions, the people that facilitate the logistics have a very specific

• 2:06:07Colin O'Brady?

  Criteria of what considers solo, both Borg and I were both solo, so the same there. What constitutes unsupported, so unsupported means, and it's very explicit on their website, it's not like somebody making up, it's hand, you know, very explicit, unsupported means no use of resupplies, so no food or fuel or anything, no depot, so you're taking everything you can with you, hence why my sleds start at 375 pounds and Borg, as I believe, was, you know, over 400 pounds because he was going even further distance. But the kind of distinction between the two of us is something called unassisted, which again is very explicit on Antarctica Logistics and Expeditions website, it's posted everywhere. And what that pertains to is they consider an assisted expedition, something that uses more than just human power to propel them.

• 2:06:50Colin O'Brady?

  And so in this instance, a kite is the main sort of wind aid in this case. And Borga Ausland very famously did this crossing using two very large kites.

• 2:07:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, two?

• 2:07:02Colin O'Brady?

  Yes, so this is something that I've actually come to realize even going deeper into this, and it was never my desire to debunk him, but...

• 2:07:09Rich Roll?

  The article made it, made it sound like the kite was of nominal assistance. I think, I can't remember the exact phraseology, but it's something along the lines of, you know, he pulled it out from time to time and he kind of jerry-rigged it on the spot and it was, it wasn't that beneficial. But when you look at the distances covered over the number of days, I mean, he almost, he did almost double the distance that you did.

• 2:07:33Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:34Rich Roll?

  So how many?

• 2:07:35Colin O'Brady?

  He did about double the distance that I did.

• 2:07:36Rich Roll?

  Eight hundred miles?

• 2:07:37Colin O'Brady?

  Eight hundred miles, I think, eight hundred and fifty, something like that.

• 2:07:39Rich Roll?

  Sixty-four days?

• 2:07:40Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, and I did 932 in fifty-four days. And he talks about it, again, what's interesting, and again, it makes me sad, it feels like, you know, the journalist himself clearly didn't read my book, and I'll definitely gonna read a page from it because it talks about how I'm really admiring Borg Ausland in my own book, in my own words. But also Borg Ausland wrote a book that has, you know, published in 1997 that I've had, you know, had a chance to have a look at now recently, actually. And there's photographs of this kite, actually these two kites, one's 12 square meters, the other is 24 square meters. The big one, he actually calls big boy and talks about it, you know... Over and over again, but then when he's quoted in the article, it says, oh, it's this jerry-rigged

• 2:08:21Colin O'Brady?

  thing. Or he also says in a New York Times op-ed that was written a year ago, that it was like, "a tiny square piece of cloth that I pulled out from time to time." Now, National Geographic, after I wrote a 16-page letter in response to this, which anyone can see linked to my Instagram, it's very thorough. It's not like a argumentative, "he said, he said" type of thing. It's just a very concise, well, it's not concise, it's 16 pages.

• 2:08:45Rich Roll?

  It reads like a legal brief.

• 2:08:47Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, I mean, it's citations, documentation.

• 2:08:50Rich Roll?

  You must add help writing that. I mean, that's quite a comprehensive document.

• 2:08:53Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, you know, as most things do, it's me and Jenna and a few other people helping out.

• 2:08:57Rich Roll?

  We should say, I mean, there was a call, you know, there was a, that was accompanied by a request that Nat Geo pull the article. They've declined to pull the article. Apparently, they made a few alterations or changes to it.

• 2:09:07Colin O'Brady?

  Right, and so one of the things that they have made as a correction is this thing about the jury-rigged kite. They've actually said, you know what, we got that wrong. This was a manufactured kite. And what they still, I guess, have, are getting wrong is that it's not just one kite, but it was actually two large sails. And these are things like, these photographs are in Borga Ausland's own book. You know, he talks, and as he should, with great pride, that on a single day, over the course of 15 or 16 hours, he covered 226 kilometers, which is roughly 125, 130 miles.

• 2:09:37Rich Roll?

  In a day, in a 24-hour period.

• 2:09:39Colin O'Brady?

  In a 15-hour period. So he also slept in there.

• 2:09:42Rich Roll?

  You're hauling ass. I mean, I'm sure there were days where he wasn't moving very much at all, but that's a huge day. I mean, clearly, you know, the kite played a large role in that.

• 2:09:50Colin O'Brady?

  They're just two different things.

• 2:09:51Rich Roll?

  What do you, like, so why do you suspect then that Borga is one of the people who's taking issue with your account of this?

• 2:10:00Colin O'Brady?

  You know, we'll get into that in a second, but I think it's important to note, just like, for this, is that like, you know, they say in the article, one of the key premises is Colin does not acknowledge Borga Ausland, right? But on page 49 of my own book, this is my book in my own words, there couldn't be more clear, it says, "The Norwegian adventurer Borga Ausland in many ways defined the terrain of astonishing modern Antarctic feats, becoming the first person across Antarctica solo when he traveled 1,800 miles alone in 63 days from late 1996 to early 1997." Not only did he cross the entire landmass of Antarctica, but he also crossed the full Ron and Ross Ice shelves from the ocean's edge. Alson's expedition, which had deeply inspired me, was unsupported in that he'd hauled all his food and fuel with no resupplies,

• 2:10:44Colin O'Brady?

  but importantly assisted in that he used a parachute chute-like kite called a parrot wing, harnessing the wind to pull him across in the ice. And the thing is, I think the thing that's the saddest part about all of this for me, I mean, there's a number of things that are sad about it, but like, I think what Borga Alson did was extraordinary. The day after I finished my crossing, not, I didn't wait to write my book and put a paragraph in there about there. The day after I finished my crossing, it's December 26th, the day I finished, and on December 27th, my Instagram post, I'm still sitting alone in my tent in Antarctica, had no contact with the outside world, other than like a, you know, brief phone call with Jenna and my family. I write an Instagram post called "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants", which was a very humble post that acknowledges Borga Alson,

• 2:11:27Colin O'Brady?

  as well as many other pioneering Antarctic explorers in saying, hey, like, you know, I'm really proud of this thing, but there's no way I could have done this without the inspiration from so many people who've done extraordinary things on this continent, you know, over time. And so I think there's a deep sadness for me, and even in this conversation, you know, it's very clear to me what the difference distinction is between using a kite and the fact that he went 226 kilometers in a single day, and that it wasn't just a scrappy piece of cloth that he like jury rigged. It's a, you know, manufactured thing, whatever, but like, even in that, my purpose here is not to tear down or asterix somebody as extraordinary as Borga Alson. My hope in doing any of this is to spread positivity and inspiration, but of course I have to stand my ground, which is like,

• 2:12:11Colin O'Brady?

  as you said from the top of this, no one is debating. I walked 932 miles by myself, across the landmass of Antarctica, um, you know, unsupported, unassisted by kites or dogs, and, you know, completed that, and no one in human history had ever done that specific thing before.

• 2:12:26Rich Roll?

  Some of the controversy appears to stem from the fact that the, the sort of, um...

• 2:12:33Rich Roll?

  Southern, you know, the final chapter in the adventure was on like this graded, what's it called, the Leverett?

• 2:12:41Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so it's the Leverett Glacier.

• 2:12:43Rich Roll?

  It's like, they characterize it as a bit of a graded road. I mean, even in one of your Instagram posts, you can kind of see that there's some grading in there. And this sense that that, that that on some level constitutes assistance that, you know, may or may not measure up to having a sail, but qualifies as, you know, something that should have been put more in the forefront.

• 2:13:08Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so, I mean, again, I write about it in my book. It's called, the Leverett Glacier is the actual land map or the feature of the terrain, but the traverse that you're talking about is called the SPOT traverse. It's an acronym for the South Pole Overland Traverse. And so McMurdo Station, which is on the coast, the US military, or sorry, US government station on the coast, resupplies the South Pole Station every season by driving this like convoy up there. So it's funny, the use of the word road is a little bit, bit of hyperbole in that, yes, big trucks drive on this section of Antarctica, but it is frozen ice and snow. And the second Antarctica blows, it's, you know, the crazy wind that it blows out there, it's pretty quickly blown over.

• 2:13:51Colin O'Brady?

  But yeah, absolutely, there's, there's some flagging out there. They have, I never saw this vehicle, I'm sorry, any of the vehicles of the convoy myself out there. But certainly I saw traces of, you know, this South Pole Overland Traverse. I, you know, there's a photograph of me in, during my crossing, then I talk about it in my book. The point being is, it's not something that was like hidden from public view. Again, I write about it in my book. The only distinction here, and the reason that's a little bit disappointing, is that everyone in the polar community knew the route I was doing when I left to do it. And it was acknowledged as being fairly within the Antarctica logistics and expeditions. Distinctions that the quote unquote South Pole overland traverse was not something

• 2:14:35Colin O'Brady?

  that was considered aid in their qualifications of unassisted and unsupported. Even more so, which is really disappointing from the National Geographic article, is that I was not the first person to attempt this exact same goal using the Leverett Glacier. So there's a guy by the name of Ben Saunders, who the year before I set off, attempted a crossing. He started at a slightly different spot, so the front half of his was about 70 miles longer in duration to reach the South Pole, but his intended route from the South Pole to complete what he was calling the first unsupported, unassisted crossing, which in my mind, it 100% would have been, in the mind of everyone else following, it would have been as well, was to go down the Leverett Glacier using the South Pole overland traverse. And this is something that's widely in the public domain. Anyone

• 2:15:20Colin O'Brady?

  in Polar exploration would have known this. And the journalist says that he interviewed 70 different experts in polar history. He wrote 7,000 words about this and fails to mention that the year before I did this, a very, very highly respected polar explorer by the name of Ben Saunders was attempting the same thing. And somehow paints both me, and let's be honest, Captain Lou Rudd, who also did the exact same thing as me. And unfortunately, I mean, fortunately for him, and of course, I don't want Lou's name to get drug through the mud because I, you know, he's a friend, and I think what he did was amazing. But Lou and I both did the exact same thing, and Lou is a very, very highly regarded polar explorer as well. So it's not as if like, I came up with some random thing that no one had thought about. I vetted this. I talked to many polar explorers. I have, you know,

• 2:16:02Colin O'Brady?

  emails and links to people saying, yep, that's a great route. Yep, that qualifies. And all those things are in my 16-page thing. And the fact that National Geographic wrote this article at 7,000 words and fails to, you know, conveniently not mention this other very, you know, proud polar explorer who is attempting the same thing on the same route, you know, kind of is just, to me, very unfair treatment, and I don't really understand that.

• 2:16:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, well, Lou Rudd declined to comment for the piece, as far as I could tell, except he did say one thing, which was that, and it has to do with the idea that you were unable to be rescued if something went wrong, right? And he, he sort of said, look, you know, I've never said that, you know, I was in that position, and there were all these other people who are saying... Look, he could have been, you know, they could have landed a plane there, or they could have gotten some kind of vehicle to you.

• 2:16:59Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:59Rich Roll?

  If you ran into that kind of trouble. And then I know in your response, you've got text messages and screen grabs of this and that to kind of state your case. So, explain to me what's going on with that.

• 2:17:11Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so again, you know, one of the other, to me, very unfair pieces of the National Geographic article is they try to make the claim that getting picked up or rescued is equivalent of calling an Uber, which is just a really, really ludicrous thing to say when you're talking about one of the most, most remote places in the world. So, there's Antarctica Logistics and Expeditions, the same company that facilitates logistics, the same company that dropped me off, the same company that dropped Borgaussland off 20 years before. It's basically this one company that has somewhat of a monopoly on the facilitation of logistics in this part of the world. They have this plane, it's called a Twin Otter plane. It's a small, little plane that's equipped with a ski landing gear. So, imagine you've probably seen a float plane like land on water, it'd be like that, but landing on ice and snow.

• 2:17:53Colin O'Brady?

  As you can probably picture from that, it's pretty amazing that this plane can land in all of these, you know, hard to reach places. Now, that becomes nearly impossible, if not impossible, in certain circumstances. For example, really high winds that are creating whiteout. Sestruji, which is these huge kind of speed bumps that are on the snow, basically this ice and snow formations that create like endless, you know, fields of speed bumps. And so, I was told by a number of people, including Antarctica Logistics and Expeditions, which I talk about in my book, which is that there were certain areas of the continent, particularly in this area called the Sestruji National Park, which is kind of a, you know, a pet name for this area that has really bad sestruji. That rescue in that area is, you know, very, very, very unlikely to happen and not in

• 2:18:37Colin O'Brady?

  any sort of timeframe that would, you know, be able to make sense. So, you lose your tent in a storm and they're saying, "Oh, you can call an Uber and a plane lands." It's like, no, 50 mile per hour winds, sestruji everywhere, like, there's no plane landing. And you, you know, you mentioned that I kind of make this, they are kind of making the case that I sort of, you know, made up, there's no rescue zones, but this is something that has been like widely reported by all sorts of people, including Borgaussland.

• 2:19:02Colin O'Brady?

  Like, including the guy that's like, on one hand, speaking out against me, it's like, they're trying to like, talk out of both sides of their mouth. I mean, Borg Olsen writes in a response to a question in 2018, this is not like 20 years ago, this is very recently, he said, "What would happen in certain areas of the continent in terms of rescue?" And he writes, "In some places, rescue is just hours away. Other places on the route are beyond rescue. For example, in the Sestruji fields that stretch for several hundred kilometers, no plane can land there." And there's several other quotations I have in my 16-page article, including one from Ben Saunders, who they conveniently left out of this article, Felicity Aston, who's an incredible female British explorer who was on the Leverett Glacier, the same part that they're talking about here, and she wrote, "Now I felt stripped of..." She writes this in her own book, "Now I felt stripped of all safety nets. Whatever happened

• 2:19:47Colin O'Brady?

  on this glacier, there would be nobody coming to rescue me, no one there to help." And so what I'm reporting has been reported by the same people who have been on the same part in Antarctica, Ben Saunders and Felicity Aston specifically on the Leverett Glacier, Borg Olsen, of course, on a slightly different part of Antarctica, but talking about the challenging for plane landings. But even like furthermore, you know, Captain Lou Rudd and I, when we were initially supposed to be dropped off on the Messner start, which is where we began our expedition, both in the same plane, our plane actually had to abort landing us the very first time they tried to attempt, and landed us two days later, because there was not even a bad storm, but there was just low clouds in this area. And the plane dived down and tried to land and pulled up, dived down and tried to land. So

• 2:20:30Colin O'Brady?

  I've actually been in a Twin Otter plane in not even severe conditions, and the pilot looks over at us and is like, "Uh, we're flying back to the base, no can do." And so, it's not just like this kind of made up thing. And I think the thing that's probably the most frustrating in this, I guess, obviously, was the pattern with this journalist over and over. I was never properly interviewed for it.

• 2:20:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, why is... Explain to me how, why you're not, why you didn't get, you know, your say in this article. Like, did he not reach out to you? Did he just decide that he wanted to, you know, print it without getting your input, or what went down?

• 2:21:03Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, so I mean, we'll definitely talk about it. So let me finish that last, that which is kind of dovetails into that, which is, you know... Specifically, you know, if you don't even want to believe my quotations or the quotations from all these different explorers on this topic, there is a document that Antarctica Logistics and Expeditions sent to me on this exact same thing. It's a actual proper document that they sent me and I sent this to the journalist and they, you know, basically, and I don't have it right here actually, but it's on my 16-page thing. And I have the screen grab of sending it to the journalist and it says, "In Sestruki National Park," I'm paraphrasing, you can see the exact quote, "off-stripped plane landings are not normally possible."

• 2:21:45Colin O'Brady?

  So literally, there's a document from the people who own and fly the planes that is sent to me, that I sent to the journalist. I have a screen grab of him and I talking about this and just instead, he chooses to just like not put this in the article at all. And so that, I think, goes into your question, which is, I was never really formally interviewed for this at all. The first time I ever heard from the journalist was on a, the afternoon, I believe it was of the 16th of January. I forget the exact date, but I obviously have it in my, in my notes. And he says, "I'm researching this thing. It's publishing by end of business day to day. It was 1:00 PM on the East Coast when I got this. Do you care to comment on these four things or five things in an email?" And basically,

• 2:22:29Colin O'Brady?

  like, "You have an hour or two to respond to this and I'm publishing this article." And the comments were, the things he was asking were, you know, somewhat alarming because he was, you know, trying to say certain people were contradicting me and all this kind of stuff and I was very confused. But more than anything, I was confused that an article was, you know, being researched or written and the only first time I was hearing about it was, you know, an hour or two under time pressure. And I'm on my book tour, I'm in the middle of a bunch of events and stuff like that. And I'm actually about to board a plane in Washington DC for the West Coast. And so I picked up the phone and I called him and I said, "Hey, I just got your email. You know, I've got a lot to say on this topic. Would you like to set up a formal interview to talk about this long form?" And he's like, "No, no, no. Like, you know, I don't just, I want you to comment on these two things."

• 2:23:13Colin O'Brady?

  And I was like, "Okay." Like, I have documentation, including actually what we were just talking about, the talking about the no-rescue zones and that ALE, you know, sent me these specifics things on this topic. And I send it to him while I'm sitting on the, you know, on the plane. And, you know, I said, "But hey, I'm happy," you know, over and over again, "Happy to set up a formal interview. Sounds like you want to talk through all this. Like, I'm happy to do this." No word, never, never set up a formal interview. And then the only other time that I spoke to him, I guess he just chose not to publish the article, even though he was kind of pressuring me that day, was a couple of weeks later and I got a text message from him that said, "Hey, I've just got a quick question for you." And I wrote back, "Hey, I'm on my book tour. I have five minutes before my next event, but I can give you a quick call."

• 2:23:59Colin O'Brady?

  And gave him a quick call and we spoke for, I think about four and a half minutes as I'm walking into another meeting. And again, he comes at me with a very sort of aggressive line of questioning. And I said, "Oh, wow. Sounds like you want to have a long form conversation about this. I'm super happy to schedule this. Let's schedule a conversation. You know, we can get on my schedule. I'm in the middle of my book tour. I'm like back to back on a number of things." And again, he declined to grant me a formal interview for this. And so, you know, kind of when I look at those couple of things, it's like, you know, if you're going to write 7,000 word article about somebody, it seems like you'd probably want to just, you know, say that. He says he interviewed 70 different people. He says he researched it for over three months. Yet, you know, the things like the main person in the article.

• 2:24:41Rich Roll?

  Couldn't find a time to talk to you. I mean, after he said he was publishing it like the following day and then a couple of weeks went by, did you just think it went away or did you, what were your?

• 2:24:51Colin O'Brady?

  You know, like so many things were going on in my own life. So like, it wasn't like the thing I was thinking about every second of every single day. Obviously, I get contacted by a different journalist. I'm always very cooperative and happy to talk. And still in this case, I'm very happy to sit down and have a long form formal interview and go through all of this. But in that case, you know, he had said a couple of things that he's commenting on. I sent him documentation that kind of disproved the thing that he was asking. And I thought, oh, maybe like, oh, he just, he had it wrong. And now he's seen the document, which obviously he chose not to publish, actually. But in my mind, I was like, oh, well, maybe, you know, that's all cleared up. Great, you know, we're good to go. I'm going to continue on my life.

• 2:25:24Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, clearly he had, you know, a narrative that he wanted to spin. It's unfortunate that, you know, he didn't give you the opportunity to speak to him. My sense is that on some level, this is a, um, a reaction to you being a relative newcomer to the explorer community. It's a, uh, you know, look, it's a subculture that's steeped in tradition and. I would imagine certain rules of etiquette and you kind of come up in a certain way and you approached it from a different tack and accelerated your trajectory upward and perhaps that ruffles some feathers or you didn't comport yourself in a manner, you

• 2:26:09Rich Roll?

  know, that that is expected of somebody who kind of does what you do. In either case, it's positioned you as somebody who's incredibly accomplished, but also kind of an interloper to the community. Is that, is that fair? Or what do you, how does that?

• 2:26:28Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, you know, I think there's probably a generational difference. If you look at the people that have like come down.

• 2:26:35Rich Roll?

  I mean, Conrad Anker is a friend of mine. You know what I mean? Like, and he's, you know, a legend. You know what I mean? And so when I see that he's, you know, where he's lining up on this, it's like, it's disheartening to me because I'm friends, I'm a friend, you know, I'm your friend, dude. Like, I, you know, it was important to me to be able to have you come here and tell your side of the story. And, you know, I'm not part of that community. Although I have friends in that community. So.

• 2:26:58Colin O'Brady?

  No, and look, I mean, just like Borg Alson, I have the most respect in the world for Conrad and him and I have actually been messaging this week and we're talking, I think tomorrow as we have a scheduled conversation. And I said, hey, man, like, I have all the respect in the world for you, you know, let's talk this through. And he's been nothing but actually, once I've engaged in that level, gentle and kind in the way that I, you know, anticipate him to be because he really is, you know, someone who I have a great deal of respect for and his accomplishments, as well as his stewardship of the environment and things like that are definitely worthy of applause. And so, you know, you know, what this all boils down to, you know, I'm not so sure. What I do know is, you know, is disappointing that Nat Geo is not willing to, you know, retract the entirety of the

• 2:27:39Colin O'Brady?

  article, but the editor in chief did make very clear when she responded, she says, Colin, your 932 mile crossing Antarctica is, you know, quote from her, worthy of respect. And you followed all of the regulations of the ALE guidelines that set forth at the time, which is, you know, again, that's a little bit of polar nuance, but basically, you followed all the rules that you said you were going to follow. And so for me, it's not. As full of resolution as I would like to see because certainly this, you know, the entirety and the slant it buys this article is left a negative taste in some people's mouth that haven't kind of, you know, looked at the entirety of the thing. But I think it is very telling to at least have the editor in chief of National Geographic

• 2:28:22Colin O'Brady?

  say like, hey, like, we're going to correct these things, which they made some corrections, and also, you know, what you did is worthy of respect. And yes, you're not like this horrible human being. You actually did follow all the rules transparently the way that you said they were. Now, is there a debate within the Polar community at large, you know, ex post facto of this whole thing about how they might want to re, you know, classify or characterize different things? Like, that's up for them. Like, that's up for them to debate and discuss. I know there's a lot of ongoing things, but like, to vilify me for explicitly following all of the rules, you know, consulting with a number of Polar experts, working with the company, doing something that the venerated Captain Lou Rudd, who's, you know, is worthy

• 2:29:07Colin O'Brady?

  of praise in what he's done. And of course, I talk about him long form in my book and all of the, you know, all of our relationship. I was on the phone with him last week, like, we're friends. Like, he also did the same thing as me. He wasn't doing, there's not like some crazy weird thing that he was doing. Like, he looked at the entirety of Antarctica. He's been going to Antarctica for a decade and decided this was a worthy thing to attempt to do the first solo unsupported, unassisted crossing of the landmass of Antarctica. And we both, you know, accomplished that, and I'm proud of our accomplishments. And I think that, you know, for me, the lasting impression, one of the things that I think that is possible is clear that the journalist himself didn't, you know, read my book, given he didn't, you know, quote that I was talking about Borg Alson. But also, if you read my book, which I know you have, and you blurb did and things like

• 2:29:50Colin O'Brady?

  that, like, I don't even, the end of the book, not to give it away to listeners, but at the end of the book.

• 2:29:56Rich Roll?

  He survives.

• 2:29:58Colin O'Brady?

  Yes. The end of the book. I actually stopped the last chapter ends a quarter mile from me finishing this journey. There's of course, an epilogue that has to like wrap up some of the details. But there's no part in this book where I'm even actually crossing the finish line, i.e. beating my chest, I just did this amazing thing that no one's ever done. Like, the last chapter of my book is called Infinite Love. It is about the inspiration that I gathered, the positive energy that I want to spread in the world, the ripple effect of positivity and energy. And I've said this over and over, and I'll say it again here, which is the best thing and compliment that anyone could ever give me for writing this book is not, wow, your accomplishments are extraordinary. You're better than this other polar explorer. Like, I don't care about any of that.

• 2:30:43Colin O'Brady?

  What I care is someone puts this book down and they're inspired to break through the own boundaries in their own life, to go after their own impossible first. And that's really the essence of this book. And so it's sad to be somehow mischaracterized as if I wrote some like a book that's like me pounding the chest of the greatest, whatever. I walked 932 miles across Antarctica by myself. It was a deeply introspective journey. I learned a ton of things about myself and growing. And my really hope is to spread inspiration and positivity to people all around the world. And it's a shame that this, this has come out to really mischaracterize all of those things.

• 2:31:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, two insights on that. I mean, the first is that subcultures, you know, tend to have, you know, rulebooks for how they do things. I alluded to that earlier, like in the open water swimming community, you know, when Diana Nyad, you know, attempts to swim from Cuba to Florida, I think she put her hand on the side of the boat or something like that, and it created like a huge uproar. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a little bit of losing for, details matter. And it's important to have standards and to understand, you know, the lay of the land so that everybody's clear about who's first and all of that. But sometimes we lose the forest for the trees.

• 2:31:59Rich Roll?

  And to the extent that this story has been extrapolated upon to, to, you know, kind of undermine, you know, what you did, which is not in dispute, is disheartening. And I think second to that is You know, how this article closes with a bit of a character assassination, you know, and I've known you for years. I've seen you in groups of people. We did the 29029 thing together. So I've done like, you know, it's not crossing Antarctica, but I've seen you, you know, physically exert yourself in a community of people and and I pay attention to how people interact with others. And at no point, like, I think I even, I mean, we did our podcast a little while ago, I'm pretty sure I said to you, like, dude, you're a nice affable guy, but but I know you're a killer because like, you don't do

• 2:32:42Rich Roll?

  what you you don't accomplish what you've accomplished without being, you know, you know, ferocious in your in your in your healthy ambition to achieve your goals. But that doesn't mean that you're an asshole. I've never seen you comport yourself in that way. And the examples that are laid out in that article are kind of strange because it shows you like switching expeditions, perhaps at the last minute, but because you're in pursuit of a world record and you found yourself with groups of people that are there for vacation or for other purposes, like, it just, you guys were on different tacks. Like, to me, I look at that and I was like, well, it makes sense. Like, he's, he's trying to do this as quickly as possible. And he's with groups of people that have other, you

• 2:33:26Rich Roll?

  know, rationales for what they're doing. I could see how, you know, perhaps some friction arose there. But, you know, I I've never seen any indicia in all the time we've spent together, and it's quite a bit, of you being somebody who who, you know, is lashing out at people and treating people, you know, in a in a not so nice way.

• 2:33:44Colin O'Brady?

  No, and I appreciate that.

• 2:33:45Rich Roll?

  But I haven't seen you under incredible strain either.

• 2:33:48Colin O'Brady?

  No, I appreciate that. And you're alluding to, you know, a North Pole expedition that I did in 2016. And that's exactly what happened. It wasn't, you know, necessarily a negative thing at all. It was just that we were some kind of logistics lined up for me to be with this family of people. And then we got stuck there because of the this cracking of the sea ice delayed us for eight days. And all of a sudden, they weren't going to complete the full expedition that I needed to complete for my world record. And so, you know, we found an alternative solution to that. And, you know, what I regard as a pretty affable way, I'm still friends with the two young British kids. So I guess they're not so young anymore, but they're in their early 20s at the time. It was five years ago.

• 2:34:24Rich Roll?

  Those are the guys who were with their dad?

• 2:34:25Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was a family. It was a guy, you know, and his two dad and his two kids. I mean, they're, you know, grown kids, 2022, something like that. But You know, I think to your greater point, you know, which is, you know, that is not my character, you know, am I a human being who at times throughout my thirty, you know, nearly thirty-five years on this planet has, you know, gotten upset at some point or lost my temper or, you know, I've hurt someone's feelings? I'm sure that's the case and for every one of those instances, you know, I'm deeply sorry, you know, I'm a, you know, I'm a complete human being with good days and bad days and ups and downs and all of the rest that we all go through. But in general, I would say, and I appreciate, you know, what you've said and knowing me all these years is that, you know, my orientation is towards the positive. My orientation is towards uplifting other people.

• 2:35:10Colin O'Brady?

  My orientation in terms of writing this book, again, is not about me, but is about inspiring other people to break through. And I think, you know, 2029 is a great example of that and what you just talked about. It's this, you know, it's this event where we actually explicitly in founding the event say, this is not a race, this is you against you and you against yourself. And, you know, you were there with me when we're, you know, at the finish line and people are finishing, you know, in tears and every single person is getting a hug from me, a high five from me, we're congratulating and celebrating every single person's success. And to me, that's really my orientation towards the world. I want to see every single person achieve their own personal goals, their own personal best and uplift other people.

• 2:35:51Colin O'Brady?

  And I think that in a time right now where, you know, we've got, you know, partisan politics ripping apart the country, we've got so much divisiveness and whatever, like, I really orient towards, you know, how can we bring people together? How can we unify even people that see different perspectives on the world? How can we share and evolve in a way that is uplifting, inspiring everyone? And, you know, this entire situation that we're discussing right here is sad to me because in a time when we could be focused on things like, you know, climate change and uniting around really positive outcomes in the world and uplifting each other and celebrating so many people's accomplishments, it seems like over the last month, we've been stuck, you know, debating the finer points of nuance of, you know, who's better than the other person. Honestly, you know, that's not really of a huge concern to me.

• 2:36:35Colin O'Brady?

  I think everyone should be celebrated for what they've done and we should move together in a positive and united way.

• 2:36:42Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, thank you for elucidating.

• 2:36:45Colin O'Brady?

  Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure, my brother.

• 2:36:48Rich Roll?

  Anything, any final remarks you want to make or anything like that?

• 2:36:51Colin O'Brady?

  No, I think it's great. I really appreciate it and look forward to the whole conversation from a month ago and this one being put up.

• 2:36:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I'm glad we have the opportunity to do this. So thanks for coming.

• 2:37:01Colin O'Brady?

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:37:01Rich Roll?

  All right, man.

• 2:37:02Colin O'Brady?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:02Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:37:08Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. A twofer. What do you guys think? How'd that go for you? Share your thoughts with Colin directly, at Colin O'Brady on Twitter and Instagram. Pick up his new book, The Impossible First. And don't forget to check out the show notes, where I've got tons of information, including links to everything that we discussed today. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe, rate and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube. Hit that subscribe button on YouTube, people. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I appreciate my team who endeavored mightily to put on and produce today's show. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production,

• 2:37:53Rich Roll?

  show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for videoing and editing the podcast. Margot is now out on maternity leave. She's about to have a baby. So what's up, Margot? Hope you're feeling good. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ally Rogers for portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK for advertiser relationships. And theme music, as always, by Tyler and Trapper Pyatt and Hari Mathis. Appreciate you all. Thanks for the love. See you back here in a couple of days, a few days. Let's just call it shortly. Until then, peace.