The Monster He Made: Murdoch, Trump, and the Price of Power (Part 4)

What was the nature of the relationship between Fox News and Donald Trump? What, or who, caused Rupert Murdoch's marriage to Wendi Deng to end? What were the consequences of Fox News promoting election fraud conspiracies after the 2020 election? Alastair is joined by two-time Rupert Murdoch biographer, Michael Wolff, to discuss all this and more. To enjoy the full series right now, claim your FREE TRIAL for The Rest Is Politics Plus at therestispolitics.com. The Rest Is Politics Plus grants you exclusive bonus content, miniseries, early access to Question Time episodes and live show tickets, ad free listening for both TRIP and Leading, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. For all these benefits, please join us direct at therestispolitics.com. Written & Produced by: Nicole Maslen Video Editor: Charlie Rodwell Social Producer: Celine Charles Filmed by: Charlie Rodwell Senior Producer: Callum Hill Artwork: Alistair Dixon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alastair Campbell?

  Hi there, it's Alistair here. And in the penultimate episode of our mini-series on media magnet Rupert Murdoch, we look at his big power base in the United States, Fox News. The rise of Fox News over the past couple of decades has influenced so much of American politics, and frankly facilitated the rise of one Donald J. Trump. If you're interested in more, we've included a clip here from this week's episode. But if you want the whole thing and get all the benefits of Trip+ membership, sign up at therestispolitics.com. There's an amazing line in your, in your book, which makes me think of Trump. But this is you writing about Murdoch. He is, and this is a fundamental entrepreneurial talent, a master illusionist.

• 0:46Alastair Campbell?

  It's the essential entrepreneurial skill to convince people that you are what you have yet to become. So it's back to this point about people aching to believe that he's not as bad as everybody says. He'll be good for the Wall Street Journal. He'll respect the rules that we put in place. And then every time he lets them down. Is that his, is that his great skill?

• 1:08Michael Wolff?

  I think Rupert has a lot of skills. In the end, as, as mendacious as you certainly, and I would, I would agree, you want to characterize Murdoch, you have to say somehow he accomplishes what he sets out to do. And this becomes a perfect, you know, the, the, the means justify the ends. You know, most people, most people never get to the end and, and

• 1:34Alastair Campbell?

  They give up.

• 1:34Michael Wolff?

  And he manages to. It's like he just sits there just until it gets done.

• 1:39Alastair Campbell?

  He never goes up. So that's his purchase of Dow Jones. It's a big, big thing in the American media landscape. But in a sense, what's had the really big influence, certainly on American politics, is Fox News. And we mentioned

• 1:52Michael Wolff?

  And just, just before you get there, because I think it's important, he buys the Wall Street Journal at the top of the market. So, you know, it's still in his head. He's pursuing something that other people in the media business know has passed. And, and he will, he will overpay, overpay by a factor of probably three for the Wall Street Journal. And they will write down almost the entire value of that business within a year, within, I guess, eighteen months.

• 2:24Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. So he's actually not just doing this about money. This is about owning the vehicles that allow him to have greater command of a political space as well.

• 2:34Michael Wolff?

  Even that, I think it's just owning newspapers, just the love of newspapers.

• 2:39Alastair Campbell?

  Okay. We mentioned briefly in the last episode Roger Ailes. I don't think I ever met Roger Ailes. He might have been at one thing I spoke at in Mexico. I can't remember.

• 2:49Michael Wolff?

  I came to know Roger very well and, and to like him considerably. And he was, and yes, and he was even more mendacious than, than Rupert himself.

• 2:58Alastair Campbell?

  Why do you like these lying people? What is it, Michael, about these liars that attract you?

• 3:03Michael Wolff?

  Oh, God, it's a, it's a really, really good question because they are, I don't know, because they are so vivid and cynical and in their own ways, honest.

• 3:15Alastair Campbell?

  Right. Honest because he doesn't hide the fact that he's a liar.

• 3:20Michael Wolff?

  Exactly. And out of the other side of his mouth, he will tell you the truth. They're incredible storytellers also.

• 3:27Alastair Campbell?

  Roger Ailes was a storyteller.

• 3:28Michael Wolff?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:29Alastair Campbell?

  But Murdoch is not a great storyteller.

• 3:30Michael Wolff?

  No, no.

• 3:31Alastair Campbell?

  He's a mythmaker.

• 3:32Michael Wolff?

  He's, my feelings about Murdoch is I actually, I actually like Murdoch when you're, when you're with him, you know, because first thing, first thing, he actually tells you what he's, what he's thinking at the moment. He just doesn't have any self-awareness. So he can't tell you why he's done, done something. You're not really drawn to, to Murdoch because, you know, he's, he's closed off. Somebody like Roger Ailes is not.

• 4:00Alastair Campbell?

  And Roger Ailes is somebody who's well-known, pretty well-known in the political world. He's worked for Ronald Reagan. He's worked for George H. W. Bush. He's, he worked for Rudy Giuliani when he was running for mayor in, in New York. Why does Murdoch hire him?

• 4:12Michael Wolff?

  Okay, let me, let me just, just dip back a second here. So in the mid nineties, Murdoch is actually trying to buy CNN. CNN, they won't sell it to him. So in a kind of a Murdoch knee jerk reaction, it's like, okay, you won't sell it to me, then I'm going to start my own. So he starts his own 24 seven news network, which is incredibly expensive. He hires a large, he doesn't know him. Roger Ailes is a, you know, conservative political

• 4:47Alastair Campbell?

  Why did he choose him then?

• 4:48Michael Wolff?

  Guy, because he was available. He had been working for NBC. He was a, you know, well-known television guy who had political experience. He was working for NBC and had just been fired from NBC, actually for making an anti-Semitic comment about someone, someone else in the company. Actually, that's someone else in the company is a guy by the name of David Zaslove, who now runs Warner Discovery. So one of the big people in the, in the industry. So he was out of a job and available and Murdoch got together with him. They hit it off and Murdoch hired him.

• 5:30Alastair Campbell?

  Some of the people Ailes did not hit it off with were Murdoch's kids.

• 5:35Michael Wolff?

  Later, I mean, at the moment, so at the moment Fox is, Fox begins, it's kind of nothing and

• 5:41Alastair Campbell?

  For how long is it nothing?

• 5:42Michael Wolff?

  It, it makes its bones on Clinton, Monica Lewinsky. It gets out front of that and, and it immediately, the tabloid culture comes out in a television news product. And again, tabloidism has never worked for Murdoch in the US. It does in the form of Fox News, although not because of Murdoch. So Fox News is started, Ailes asks for basically carte blanche on the editorial side. Murdoch gives it to him and he goes to town. Now, and Murdoch doesn't

• 6:18Alastair Campbell?

  Just on that though, Michael, what is it in Roger Ailes that it seems to me throughout Murdoch's life story uniquely amongst these media executives, Murdoch goes along with that, doesn't intimidate, doesn't interfere.

• 6:35Alastair Campbell?

  Is that Ailes' force of personality?

• 6:37Michael Wolff?

  It's yes, but more importantly, it's television.

• 6:40Alastair Campbell?

  And Murdoch doesn't get it.

• 6:41Michael Wolff?

  Murdoch doesn't get television. His only interest in television is that it make money for him. The exclusive charm of the business for Murdoch, cash flow. Ailes almost immediately starts to produce this. The numbers start to go up and because of, again, this tabloid thing, Clinton, Monica Lewinsky starts to go up. So within it starts in 96 and by 2000, 2001 is beating CNN.

• 7:12Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. And that's when Ailes, I think this is in your book, said, you know, he wanted CNN, but I've given him Fox News.

• 7:21Michael Wolff?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Alastair Campbell?

  How long before Murdoch starts to feel a bit queasy? Because what's amazing about your book, I get the feeling he doesn't really like Fox News very much.

• 7:28Michael Wolff?

  He doesn't really care about Fox News. It's kind of a low rent thing.

• 7:32Alastair Campbell?

  Right.

• 7:33Michael Wolff?

  But it starts to make money. It starts to get numbers. He's pleased with it because it's making money. He doesn't have to spend a lot of time with it. It's not horrible at this point. It's, it's.

• 7:47Alastair Campbell?

  It's okay.

• 7:48Michael Wolff?

  It's, yeah, it is what it is. It's a kind of tabloid thing.

• 7:53Alastair Campbell?

  When does it become very political? When do we get to the point? And tell me this is true. Somebody once told me that, I was at one of these Murdoch events and somebody told me that Roger Ailes, every morning, sent out a note to all staff that these are the propaganda points that we're making today.

• 8:11Michael Wolff?

  Roger's a good storyteller. He's very, he sees television as a coherent thing. He sees news as a, it's not CNN, it's not a running a newsroom. It's very top down. You know, I, I'm speaking to an audience. I'm not, I'm, I'm not telling, giving the world the news. I'm giving an audience what it is, what it comes here to get. It starts to become something else, something more aggressive, more toxic, more clearly agenda driven. In 2008, what happens then? Obama becomes president.

• 8:54Michael Wolff?

  In 2008, during the campaign, Murdoch becomes, and everybody in his family is an Obama person.

• 9:03Alastair Campbell?

  The children willingly, and Rupert maybe.

• 9:06Michael Wolff?

  Well, he's brought along, and Wendy too, particularly. And the whole world, remember that world, just to go back, it's very hard to remember now. 2008, there's an incredible moment. Obama is.

• 9:22Alastair Campbell?

  Optimism.

• 9:23Michael Wolff?

  Yes. During the campaign, Murdoch has been trying to get a meeting with Obama. Obama won't meet with him, but finally agrees. They show up, I think this is in New York, and Murdoch brings Ailes along. First, Murdoch sits down with Obama, and they have a good meeting. And actually, Murdoch says to him, the one thing that I've learned, I've known every president. Something Murdoch is very proud of.

• 9:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but you know what's really interesting about that? I can remember George W. Bush, I'm sure of this, saying to us once, what's this guy Murdoch like? I don't really know.

• 10:00Michael Wolff?

  I don't know. I mean, I know that Murdoch has said, point of pride, I've known every president. Whether he's forgotten one, very possible. But he says to Obama this, I've known every president, I have one piece of advice for you. And that's, you have six months. That's the moment when you can do something. And then Obama curiously talks to him about his father. I mean, I asked Rupert about Rupert's father, Keith. So they have a perfectly civil, respectful discussion, and I think they get along. Then he brings Ailes in, and Obama goes to town on him.

• 10:40Alastair Campbell?

  Good for him.

• 10:41Michael Wolff?

  I mean, rips him apart. You know, you've accused me of being a Muslim, just a full, full force attack.

• 10:49Alastair Campbell?

  Which, hold on, Murdoch probably didn't enjoy.

• 10:51Michael Wolff?

  I don't know if that's true, and I've wondered if maybe he staged this. Because he's.

• 10:58Alastair Campbell?

  Nice.

• 10:59Michael Wolff?

  No, it's not, he would like to bring Ailes under control. And he would like, you know, as I say, the family, including Murdoch, has decided they are supporting Obama.

• 11:11Alastair Campbell?

  Because I'll tell you why I say that. I was once in Tony Blair's flat in Downing Street, and.

• 11:18Alastair Campbell?

  Rupert Murdoch came with the two sons, Lachlan and James, and we ended up talking about the Middle East. And James started speaking really quite passionately from a pro Palestinian perspective and got quite, you know, aerated about about Israel. And of course Murdoch is, you know, full, very, very pro Israeli. I remember I said in my diary that I was quite impressed by the way that even though there's the prime minister sitting there, Murdoch kind of let James do a lot of the talking. But then when it got where he could sense that Tony was maybe just thinking this was going a bit far, and James started swearing and saying the fucking Israelis and this sort of stuff. And that was the only, that was the first point when Rupert Murdoch stepped

• 12:03Alastair Campbell?

  in and said, James, you don't talk like that in the prime minister's house. But I, so I always feel he doesn't quite like those really.

• 12:08Michael Wolff?

  No, no, he, well, he's a conflict averse, but um, but if somebody else is conducting the the confrontation.

• 12:16Alastair Campbell?

  He can sit back.

• 12:17Michael Wolff?

  Yes. So, but at any rate, I think that this phenomenally backfired on all concerned because.

• 12:24Alastair Campbell?

  Obama as well.

• 12:25Michael Wolff?

  Because, yes, because Ailes just.

• 12:27Alastair Campbell?

  Became an enemy.

• 12:27Michael Wolff?

  Just doubled down. And it gave Fox a whole new edge, the Obama thing.

• 12:33Alastair Campbell?

  And if you go back to our first discussion of when, when I was talking about how the way Murdoch operated with his editors and he, he threw out hints and, and off they went and thought like he did. Ailes is not doing that. Ailes is thinking like Ailes thinks, not how Murdoch thinks.

• 12:49Michael Wolff?

  Completely. And Ailes is, is undermining, to a large degree undermining Murdoch.

• 12:56Alastair Campbell?

  And when he said, sort of, there's this, this phrase, this sentence that Ailes comes out with, with, once it has become the Fox News that we know today, it's not enough that conservatives like us, but that liberals hate us. In his head, liberals includes Lachlan Murdoch, James Murdoch, Elizabeth Murdoch.

• 13:13Michael Wolff?

  Ailes is always.

• 13:16Michael Wolff?

  I mean, I mean, takes a visceral dislike and and opposition to the children. They spend the money I make, Ailes says.

• 13:28Alastair Campbell?

  He also says at one point that Rupert Murdoch is kind of pathetic around those children.

• 13:32Michael Wolff?

  Completely, yeah. So Lachlan Murdoch, who was brought back from Australia to be sort of, you know, his father's lieutenant, the number two, he's forced, basically forced out of the company, or Ailes and another executive, Peter Chernin, force Rupert to decide it's us or him.

• 13:53Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know what Ailes's kind of social views were, but he's sort of, he's pretty profoundly homophobic. He's constantly sort of running the line that both the boys are gay.

• 14:06Michael Wolff?

  Totally, and then he has evidence and pictures.

• 14:09Alastair Campbell?

  Which we've never seen.

• 14:10Michael Wolff?

  No.

• 14:10Alastair Campbell?

  So he probably doesn't have.

• 14:11Michael Wolff?

  Of course not.

• 14:12Alastair Campbell?

  Would Rupert Murdoch be remotely jealous of the fact that Ailes is?

• 14:16Michael Wolff?

  He becomes increasingly, he's becomes increasingly, because this is, and this is painful to Murdoch, is that the the news accomplishment of his life, and remember Murdoch sees I'm a newsman, is Fox News, and he has nothing to do with it. It's not his, and there's no way he can claim that it is his. It is Roger Ailes's creation, and everything happens there because of Roger Ailes. Murdoch doesn't know what to do about this. So, so when, when I was writing my, my book, the only stipulation, I could do anything, I could say there was no, they had no control over it, the only stipulation was that I not

• 15:01Michael Wolff?

  speak to Ailes, because Rupert clearly thought he was going to claim the credit here.

• 15:07Alastair Campbell?

  And I assume you spoke to Ailes?

• 15:08Michael Wolff?

  I didn't.

• 15:09Alastair Campbell?

  Oh.

• 15:09Michael Wolff?

  I didn't.

• 15:10Alastair Campbell?

  You did it, you were told, Michael.

• 15:12Michael Wolff?

  And I was friends with Ailes before this. I always liked him, and matter of fact, he hired my, once hired my daughter, and, which was an Ailes thing, very godfather-like, I'll take care of you.

• 15:25Alastair Campbell?

  And you remember, remember we talked when, about the, the Titanic, that Murdoch was really pissed off that? You know, was it Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet were getting these sort of mega bucks? Did he get pissed off that Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson and these people became multimillionaires from?

• 15:42Michael Wolff?

  They they don't become multimillionaires until later. So we're still in the period in which Fox is running at a, you know, is it is a cheap place?

• 15:54Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, so he's growing.

• 15:55Michael Wolff?

  People at CNN are still are still making a making a lot of money. Yes, and and later, so Ailes will be ousted in two thousand and sixteen. And then this whole salary scales change at at at Fox.

• 16:13Alastair Campbell?

  And but does that piss him off? Or is because you get the I get the sense with Fox News that it's almost like it becomes a bigger brand than any of the titles.

• 16:25Michael Wolff?

  Everything is complicated about about Fox News as it for vis a vis Murdoch. As it will be complicated about about Donald Trump.

• 16:33Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Michael Wolff?

  I mean, these are things which he theoretically should control but can't control anymore. They have a life of their own. So Fox is set in motion, set in motion by Ailes. Ailes creates this fiefdom which which only which only he controls. And all of the people at Fox are loyal to Ailes. They're not loyal to Murdoch. Murdoch is just a kind of a remote unpleasant cloud somewhere out there.

• 17:02Alastair Campbell?

  And today, with Trump in charge again, it's become a given that we talk about a very polarized America. What's your assessment of the role of Fox News?

• 17:13Michael Wolff?

  It becomes elemental. It teaches a whole population of the country a new catechism. And it's a right wing, nationalistic, xenophobic way of thinking. It is articulated by Fox. It's um. It's propagandized by Fox. It's the repetitions of Fox drilled into the, the, the, the heads of people who become only Fox listeners. It becomes cult like.

• 17:46Alastair Campbell?

  So you've got the Rupert Murdoch there, you've got the kids who are feeling a bit kind of bruised by stuff. They don't like Ailes, they don't like Fox. They're still sort of probably back of their mind thinking, dad's getting on a bit, this succession stuff's going to be real. How are they dealing with all this?

• 18:01Michael Wolff?

  I'm not sure that they know how to deal with it yet, but their first step and the first thing that they respond to is Fox News. I mean, and this is, this becomes, I mean, I mean, Fox News, and this is by about 2012. Fox News is a, is a major power and it is a disruptive power and a toxic power. And the kids take a stand against it. This is done by a statement from Matthew Freud, who we've spoken about before. I mean, he becomes in, in his relation, his position in the family is an interesting one and he's working this and, and he has his own agenda.

• 18:43Michael Wolff?

  But he steps forward and becomes the, the spokesman for the children and issues a statement about Fox News, which is devastating.

• 18:54Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, you're absolutely right. The New York Times and Matthew Freud on the record, he's married to Elizabeth and he's also openly speaking for her and her siblings. And he says, I am by no means alone within the family or the company in being ashamed and sickened by Roger Ailes's horrendous and sustained disregard of the journalistic standards that news corporation, its founder and every other global media business aspires to. It's quite strong stuff.

• 19:23Michael Wolff?

  You know, he's throwing down a a a a flag here. Um, and it is an open challenge now, and it immediately backfires. Because Ailes goes to Rupert and says, you're fucking children. Um, I'm gonna quit if you don't do something.

• 19:45Alastair Campbell?

  And what happens?

• 19:46Michael Wolff?

  Rupert gives them a new contract worth significantly more money.

• 19:49Alastair Campbell?

  And where did the kids go?

• 19:50Michael Wolff?

  They stew this, this goes on to create more dissension. And the kids vowed to do something about this.

• 19:58Alastair Campbell?

  Well, we'll come, we'll come on briefly shortly to to when they finally see the back of of Ailes. But meanwhile, Rupert's third marriage is falling apart. You think it's already fallen apart, but that's now becoming public and it's ending.

• 20:14Michael Wolff?

  Yes, but even that surprises everyone. Um, I I remember, actually, I was in, I was in London and um, um, and I remember the moment people started to call. Uh, they they could not believe it that again, um, a Murdoch marriage was breaking up now. And now, in in hindsight, there have been so many marriages that have broken up. Why should this be a surprise? But there's just something about Murdoch that it it you you just don't expect him to have that kind of dramatic personal life, which it turns out he does.

• 20:50Alastair Campbell?

  The age gap was not good. Come on, be honest. And she's she's quite a vibrant socializer.

• 20:55Michael Wolff?

  I mean, she's a social being, a social climber. She's out there. And I think living with Rupert would be frankly very difficult because, you know, he is only interested in work. Um, and he's only interested in talking about the media business. And he is, again, I mean, I can't imagine Rupert's personal life, the cause, the, uh, you know, and this is, this is gonna be an awkward moment here, but the proximate cause is a um, an affair that she has said to have had that Murdoch certainly believes she has had and believes he has evidence of with Tony Blair.