Jade Goody | The Exec Behind Big Brother’s Most Explosive Era | 4

Executive Producer Paul Osborne takes Alice and Matt behind the scenes and into the key decisions made during the Jade Goody years. Paul worked on Big Brother 3, where he first met Jade during her home visit before she entered the house. He later became Executive Producer of the controversial Celebrity Big Brother 5 featuring Jade Goody and Shilpa Shetty - a series that sparked international headlines and one of the biggest racism controversies in British television history. Paul explains how housemates were selected, the thinking behind the show’s most memorable tasks, and how producers responded to the intense media scrutiny surrounding Celebrity Big Brother 5. How accurate was the version viewers saw on screen? What really happened as producers and editors handled the escalating controversy? And what about Jade herself? Was Big Brother the making of her, or did it ultimately destroy her? Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:09Alice Levine?

  I'm Alice Levine.

• 0:10Matt Forde?

  And I'm Matt Ford.

• 0:12Alice Levine?

  And this is British Scandal, an Audible original. And this is episode four in the Jade Goody series.

• 0:27Alice Levine?

  So, Matt, Big Brother made Jade Goody the biggest reality star this country has ever seen. But it was far from sunshine and rainbows. What did you take from looking back?

• 0:36Matt Forde?

  I think my main takeaway is that four Oxo cubes is definitely too much for pasta.

• 0:41Alice Levine?

  Yes, that's the real scandal. You'd be up all night drinking pints of water. But it is always about food with you, isn't it? Is that all you took from it?

• 0:49Matt Forde?

  I obviously took serious lessons as well. And it is incredible, the impact that it had on conversations about racism and bullying in class. Not just in the UK, but then incredibly around the world. And obviously, it was horrific at the time. Revisiting it reminds you just of how vivid it all was. And it's very easy to judge things in retrospect. You hope now, many years later, that lessons have been learned.

• 1:13Alice Levine?

  And what about Jade? What did you think of her in the end?

• 1:17Matt Forde?

  Well, she obviously made massive mistakes. And the good thing is that the show, in a way, revealed her true character. And ultimately, it's about her response to that controversy that is the making of her. Because she was genuinely mortified, she was apologetic, and she wanted to make amends. That doesn't take away from the prejudice that she displayed or the offence and the hurt that was caused. But I just think if Shilpa Shetty could find it within herself to forgive her, then I guess I can too. And I just think all of us are imperfect. And the real risk with all these things is it's very easy to sit at home and judge. But put in a high pressure situation on television, around people, effectively cast to bring out your worst elements and your best, but your worst as well.

• 2:00Matt Forde?

  But who amongst us can honestly say that our less favourable elements of our personality wouldn't be displayed there? And who are we really to judge her? Because she'd had a very difficult life, she hadn't had the sort of education that a lot of her detractors had enjoyed. And a lot of those people are racist anyway. Everyone has their own prejudices. And I think in the end, I really felt for her. I was very fond of her. I didn't like the way she behaved, but I thought her reaction to it was wonderful. And it was just really sad the way it ended for her. But I think overall, she was a really special person.

• 2:30Alice Levine?

  It's so hard to discuss Jade without discussing reality television and vice versa, because she really became the face of a whole new medium, a whole new revolution in television. And I know a lot of people listening will be interested in the making of Jade via television, how the shows were produced, how decisions were made about her portrayal. Which is why today, we're speaking to a man who not only watched it all unfold firsthand, but was part of that team making those decisions, Paul Osborne. Paul first met Jade during her initial application process for Big Brother, and then went on to be the executive producer of her Celebrity Big Brother return. Paul Osborne joins us after this.

• 3:18Alice Levine?

  Paul, thank you so much for joining us.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 3:21Alice Levine?

  So you worked as a producer on Big Brother from the very first series. When did you first hear about it and what made you want to work on it and get involved?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  It was an interesting one for me because I had been on a working holiday in Australia in like 1999, 2000. Prior to that, I'd worked on The Big Breakfast and a couple of other shows. And I wasn't kind of sure if I wanted to work in TV. And on the plane back to the UK, all the newspapers that were laid out were covering the press launch of the first ever series. And so lots of pictures of Davina, the first stirrings of controversy over what this brand new genre of TV would bring. But I remember reading it or reading some of the articles and thinking, God, I wish I was working on that. I wish I was around when it was being crewed up.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Ruth Wrigley, who was the exec on that first season, she'd worked on The Big Breakfast, I'd been there as well. And so I sensed that I might have been in that circle and might have been able to actually get a role on it. But I remember I came onto the show quite late. The premiere of the first episode was happening. Just as I was coming in to work on the show, someone had left and I took over their role as the task guy. And I remember watching it with some friends and it was the first episode, so therefore it was the first 30 minute cut down of the show. And I remember watching it and we just didn't know what was happening. We're like, well, where's Davina? Why isn't she there? How does this

• 4:54Speaker 02

  work? I do remember feeling at the time how brand new and completely alien it was as a concept.

• 5:02Matt Forde?

  So for series three in 2002, you were sent to vet Jade.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:07Matt Forde?

  What was your first impression of her?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Bubbly, funny, energetic, nervous, very anxious about this big brother producer coming into her home and, you know, I think realised that, you know, this was a final step in the kind of audition process. So, yeah, she was like, she was a ball of energy, basically, but ultimately quite anxious and nervous that she didn't want to do anything wrong.

• 5:31Alice Levine?

  And at that point, what was home life like for her?

• 5:35Speaker 02

  I mean, when I met her, she was at her mum's house in Bermondsey. And I remember walking in and Jackie was at the stove, you know, making a chicken drumstick curry. She had like a sort of like pink bath towel around her, like acting like an apron. And yeah, she, I mean, it was just a regular little flat in Bermondsey. Jade's bedroom was pretty sparse. I'm not sure, I'm not sure if she was living there at the time, but she did have her sunbed, like actually in her bedroom. So she, Jade loved a tan.

• 6:07Matt Forde?

  And did you think then, I found a star?

• 6:11Speaker 02

  I think Jade was compelling in many ways. Like I said, she was funny, she was bubbly, she was charming. She stood out. That's what she did, is she stood out. And oftentimes when you're going through those sort of audition processes for big brothers, really people will just stand out like that. And she was definitely one of them. I didn't think she was going to be a star at that point. Who knew? But we knew that she was a great personality.

• 6:37Alice Levine?

  Was there anything in that meeting that made you think she might be divisive?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  I mean, I think Jade was just generally quite polarizing, like, you know, she was polarizing from the outset. You either, you know, sort of like really took to her and loved her warmth and her bubbly-ness, but you could also be like, you know, a little, she could be a lot.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  And so that was, you know, you're sort of looking at her thinking, could I live with this person? Not that that's the criteria for casting someone, but you.

• 7:08Alice Levine?

  In fact, the opposite.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  In fact, in many ways, the opposite. We were looking for a real mix of characters and she was so, so different from anyone else. Because Big Brother at that time was such a huge show and it was such a massive opportunity for just ordinary people to become something just by sort of being themselves. So you're kind of conscious of that from the outset. This is like a possible life-changing moment for people.

• 7:38Alice Levine?

  And when you're going on that initial visit, or even when you're looking at audition tapes and things, is part of your decision-making at that point, is this person going to cope well with the experience? Any fragility that you sense? How is that going to react with that very unusual setup of the format?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Well, I think the first thing I would say is that it's not like, you know, one person making the decision. It's a collective group of producers from, you know, senior to the lower level of producers. So everyone is responsible in many ways for putting together the cast on Big Brother. But yes, no, there's a hugely robust psychological screening process that everyone goes through. And, you know, and also from a producer's responsibility aspect, you're making sure that you, you know, that these people are going to be able to handle the experience because obviously it is quite intense.

• 8:29Alice Levine?

  And it's unprecedented. You know, you can't really prepare them because it's such a strange setup.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Totally. I mean, from the outset, though, like, you know, they send their videotapes in back in the day when you had to buy a video camera or borrow one. You know, from the moment that we receive the application videos and we start talking to them and then when we invite them to the sort of group audition days, and then throughout that process, as it gets closer and closer to the selection part of it, they're constantly made aware of the intensity of the experience and the fact that, you know, that you're putting yourself out there to be judged, both internally within the house and externally with the public. So that's definitely a consideration all the way through.

• 9:11Matt Forde?

  What was it that made Jade so popular in the end?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  In the end, because initially, obviously, she was vilified in the press. And also, that first episode or that first week or so of Big Brother was kind of a brand new twist idea that we opened the phone lines and the public would vote for who they wanted to save and the people with the least votes would then go up for eviction. They didn't know that. And she was one of the two at the bottom. So obviously, initially, she wasn't popular with the public. Then she wasn't popular with the press and she wasn't hugely popular within the house in many ways either. But I think people started to see her vulnerability as the show went on. And also, I think, became sympathetic towards her because she had no

• 9:57Speaker 02

  idea what people were saying outside of the house. And so there was an element of empathy for her as a person. But I think her vulnerability was a key factor in turning the tide towards her.

• 10:09Alice Levine?

  Do you think there was a classist element to that reaction from the public or maybe more importantly, from the press?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Hundred percent, yes. I think it was classist. I think people thought she was bright and bubbly and had lots of common sense, but she wasn't educated and she got a lot of things wrong. And that became part of the comedy of her with East Anglia comments and all that sort of stuff. I think there was a little bit of misogyny as well, like, you know, they took screenshots of her when she was yawning, like, you know, they were literally saying in the papers, you know, evict the pig. You know, that's horrific.

• 10:46Alice Levine?

  Totally shocking, yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Which she would never get away with these days. But back in the day, apparently, that was fair game. People definitely looked down their noses at Jade and her inclusion in the show. I mean, the show itself was looked down upon. So the show was looked down upon and she was looked down upon, but turned it around.

• 11:06Matt Forde?

  And she's a particular type of working class person. You've had working class people on before. Craig had won the first series of working class, Scouser, obviously from Liverpool. It was the type of working class she was, wasn't it, that drove that snobbery? She was the wrong type of working class.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yes, I think probably that's true. I mean Jade didn't have a solid upbringing. You know, she had struggled when she was a kid and throughout her adolescence and she was bullied at school. And, you know, she'd managed to make something of herself in the sense that she'd got, you know, a decent job. She was a dental hygienist and, but yeah, people were looking down on her. She's sort of like an underclass, right? So she, you know, I'm working class myself, so I could identify with her. But she just hadn't had the opportunities that a lot of other people had had. With that came her personality. Jade had no boundaries, right? You know, she had, she was honest to a fault. And I think the combination of that, plus the fact that, you know,

• 12:08Speaker 02

  people on Big Brother were becoming famous for being themselves. Famous for being famous is the, is the usual thing that's thrown at it, but it's just famous for being you. And so because there was lots of criticisms about that they had no discernible talent. So why would they, why should they be on the TV every night? And Big Brother had had that for, for a couple of years by that point. And so they just thought that that was, it vindicated the detractors' perspective on the show through her.

• 12:36Matt Forde?

  And what's the reaction in the production office when you see a contestant going through that sort of public and, and media opprobrium?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Well, the sense of protection, really.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  But also you're making the show and you are, you know, the core concept of Big Brother is you show life in real time, who people really are. And so there was an element of protectionism, but we're still just making the show. And also you have to, you know, there's a balance required. You can't be just focused on Jade the entire time. So you're focused on all the other contestants as well. And just, it's an unfolding soap opera that she was one cast member of. I mean, it was proven, right? So I said that she stood out in the audition process and then in the show itself, again, she stood out. So that's who she was. She was the standout. Character.

• 13:23Alice Levine?

  And obviously, some of those moments are completely innocuous, you know. East Anglia is a fu- that's a funny moment and you're probably delighted that episode to have that, you know, that mistake in and, and that becomes like a really enjoyable, you know, moment or thread for her. So I suppose one thing is trying to, to filter out moments that you think may or may not be humiliating. But another thing is, like you say, it's a patchwork. It's a patchwork of people and you're filming all day, every day. I mean, that's the part that I kind of forget now. You've got so much material.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Filming all day, every day. And let's not forget, back in those days, it was streamed as well. I think at that time, the streaming, you, you also had the opportunity to choose which feed you wanted. So there was a constant streaming. You could access the show in real time, albeit, you know, legally compliant. And then also back in the day, the shows were half hour long. They were half hours. So you're condensing 24 hours of material that a lot of people have already seen, down to the sort of 30 minute edit of the days.

• 14:30Alice Levine?

  You could say there's a transparency to having the stream, you know, the receipts are there.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yes, true. I mean, you have to follow that transparency as well. I mean, Big Brother as well, chronological, right? You know, you don't move things around. You start at the top of the day and you end at the bottom of the day. And that's your day five, whatever it is in the Big Brother house. You're following it chronologically. You're not even like moving diary rooms around. Like, you know, it's like you show them coming to the diary room at the time that they came. You show what's going on at the same time as that diary room is taking place. There was definitely an element of, you know, staying truthful about what's going on in the house and balanced.

• 15:19Alice Levine?

  So we should talk about the innovation in the format that was Celebrity Big Brother. In 2007, you were executive producer. How was the casting for that decided? You know, there was an incredible mix of people, iconic mix of people, from a variety of backgrounds. How are you creating that mood board of people?

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, with Celebrity Big Brother, people have to be willing to take part. Obviously, that's the first kind of hurdle. I think one of the earliest people we had in that cast was Ken Russell, because he was a huge fan of the show.

• 15:52Alice Levine?

  Mind blowing.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  And it just became, our casting person, became aware of the fact that Ken Russell would like to take part. So that's the first thing. And then you're kind of looking for, you want a few big household or recognizable name stars in there. So you've got Jermaine Jackson. You know, we liked to have those kind of like throwback pop culture cast members as well. Again, you're just, you're throwing the rope out and hoping someone's going to grab it. And then the inclusion of Jade. Jade was a huge star, like, you know, she was the biggest reality TV star that had ever been and probably has ever been in this country.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  And the previous year, we had had Chantel Houghton go in, pretend to be a celebrity. We'd started rolling with the idea that it's kind of interesting to play around with what the concept of celebrity actually is. You know, in that series, could she convince celebrities that she was in fact a celebrity? And so similarly, in Jade's year, we thought bringing in someone that Big Brother had turned into a celebrity would be fascinating and interesting. By the same turn, we thought it would be interesting with Shilpa, because Shilpa was a huge Bollywood star, the biggest film industry in the world, and yet unknown outside of

• 17:17Speaker 02

  India or the Indian diaspora. And so that was another sort of like, I guess, meta comment on celebrity. It was definitely part of... What we thought would be interesting, all those things combined was how we were putting the cast together.

• 17:32Matt Forde?

  Probably the most famous challenge in that series is the masters and servants dividing the house, which obviously, given the class dynamics that we've already discussed, highly controversial and obviously a very tempting task to put to those people. When you're designing a task like that, you're obviously thinking of entertainment values, subverting people's positions in society and how people are going to react to power and all the rest of it. Does it occur to you that actually this could have potentially explosive consequences?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  It's like upstairs, downstairs, right? No, I mean, very innocent. Like, you know, we'd had the rich, poor side previously, I think in the previous Celebrity Big Brother, or the one before that even, there was like a sort of royal hierarchy with Queen Mother Jackie Stallone and going all the way down to bedwarmers and all that sort of stuff. So it had been done before, it was just another way of sort of creating an interesting dynamic in the house and to see how people would react. And also a commentary on Jade's celebrity status. I mean, you know, we're aware that her celebrity status wouldn't necessarily be looked at by these very professional people who had, you know, careers in entertainment, that they wouldn't equate their own celebrity status with that.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  So we were sort of, you know, playing around with that concept a little bit as well. And we had no idea it was going to lead to what it led to, of course. Otherwise, we'd been done.

• 18:54Alice Levine?

  How accurate was what people saw on TV compared to what was happening in the house? And I guess behind the scenes as well with the levers that you're pulling as producers?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  We always stayed as true to what was happening as we possibly could within the confines of having to put together an edited version of the show. It was always a kind of, sort of a sacred cow, a big brother, that you told the truth. So it was as accurate as it could be. And also, again, that was also streaming live, you could tune into that at any point. So you, it was always something that we strove to do, but it was something that you also had to do because, you know, the public at large and journalists getting their stories are watching the streaming and that, you know, utilizing that material for stories in the press and forming opinions about. You know, what's going on in the house and who people are and whether they like them or not.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  So it's, you know, pretty accurate, as accurate as it gets in a, in an edited show.

• 19:51Alice Levine?

  I mean, I've been in and around the show myself. It really is an ecosystem all of its own, but you were there in sort of the most famous years. What is the makeup of that team? How is that getting put together? How many people have got eyes on that stream and then finally, you know, are churning out the final episode?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  At the time, at least, there was a team of, a rotating team of 12 producers and your responsibilities where you were either running the gallery, the control room and therefore being Big Brother and talking to the housemates. But also, you know, when conflicts arose or intensity increased, then a lot of the housemates would come to the diary room. They would talk to the producers as Big Brother. So that was part of your, those were part of your responsibilities. And then your other responsibility is that once every 12 days, because it's a rotating team of 12 producers, you'll be sort of in charge of, or the, the main set of eyes on the goings on in the house and therefore the next night's show. Big Brother's Little Brother, that entire team is also watching everything that's going on.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  They're looking for unseen material that they can utilise. Legal teams, like the streaming was complied by lawyers and so it's in a 15 minute delay. So those people are watching, the directors that are putting together all the shots and following everything, they're watching, everyone's watching. I mean, you've seen it.

• 21:10Alice Levine?

  It's a village.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  It's a village, yes.

• 21:12Matt Forde?

  And are there ever any discussions about narratives and saying, well, hang on, he's basically the bad guy. So if there are moments in the day that contradict that narrative, we're more likely to leave them out. Or is it not approached like that?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  No, it's not approached like that, actually. You're always looking for balance and you don't want to be accused of creating a character that the public then like or dislike based on your choices. So you're always looking for balance.

• 21:41Alice Levine?

  I suppose the other thing we haven't mentioned is for a lot of the day, the housemates aren't doing an awful lot. So a lot of what you're leaving out is, you know, that there'll, there'll be a snippet of that conversation that's interesting or relates back to what happened the day before. There is also quite a lot of lying on the sofa.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  There's a lot lying on the sofa, there's also a lot of mundane everyday life, but sometimes that's also a great inclusion. Like, I was doing a little bit of watching back a few things in advance of this, and it's like, there's a whole story about Kate boiling her pants in a saucepan. That made it into the show. Like, there's a lot of mundane things going on that are humorous, funny, character revealing. But yes, of course, there's things going on that don't make it into the show for many obvious reasons.

• 22:30Matt Forde?

  In retrospect, perhaps, these viewers formed that reality TV around this time was basically becoming sadistic, and that people were cast to deliberately reveal the worst parts of their personalities, and TV producers were thinking of every inventive ways to create conflict. I remember one in, I think it was in the civilian series of Big Brother, where people would just start with the nuts and bolts, and it was basically a pointless task.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Maxwell.

• 22:54Matt Forde?

  Yeah, you went mad. Obviously, alcohol played a part as well. But, you know, did you ever work with people where you thought, oh, God, I think they're getting off on the tension too much? Or are you basically just trying to have fun and think of new inventive ways? Because it's a TV show that has to evolve. And only in retrospect are the public, who were loving it at the time, now saying, oh, actually, this was awful, you know, crossed a line.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  I mean, it's inherently quite an interesting format without any of those twists, right? The nomination process, the popularity contest of it all, the fact that they're cut off from the outside world, and nobody really knows how they're being perceived by the audience outside. That in itself does create, you know, great, interesting TV. The great thing about Big Brother is it is a timeless format, but you can build on top of it without ruining the core aspect of it. Twists were something that were kind of like really introduced on that series with Jade, and then that's become part of the format both here and everywhere in the world. Either there's a twist, or there's a theme, or there's something that gives that series an identity of its own. And that

• 23:59Speaker 02

  one was rich poor.

• 24:00Alice Levine?

  As you've said, friction and tension is good drama, you know, that is good TV. But we should talk about Jade and Shilpa and how things went beyond that, and it turned nasty, to say the least. Some of the scenes, we've been watching back for the purposes of this series, and they're incredibly hard to watch. The three girls ganging up on Shilpa is obviously what springs to mind. Do you remember at the time, watching those scenes and how you felt then?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yes, I do remember. Good start. How I felt.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Early on, it didn't seem unprecedented that we'd had that kind of bitchiness going on. And usually, those things were dealt with in some way or another via the interior of the house and the housemates themselves, or by the public voting in evictions.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  And so, early on, it felt like bitching that we'd seen quite a few times before and that usually resulted in whoever was orchestrating the bitching being evicted from the house. And then, of course, when it blew up and when things got a little different after that, it felt, well, it felt hard to watch because it was Jade and we knew her and she was part of the Big Brother history. And then it became quite overwhelming as things spiraled in the outside world and quite difficult to deal with.

• 25:35Matt Forde?

  And how do you decide what parts of that to broadcast?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  It's a collective decision and, you know, it crosses all sort of editorial and legal boundaries and broadcast guidelines and everything. But ultimately, you're trying to put everything in as much context as you possibly can to make sure that it is fair to all concerned.

• 25:58Alice Levine?

  When you talk about the outside response, what exactly were you seeing? Obviously, there were headlines, but I mean, how was it escalating and what was the pace of that? Because obviously, this blew up within, this is real time, as you've described. Because of streaming, this was a sort of real time reaction.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. I remember coming in one morning and Sky News were broadcasting live from outside of the studios. That's probably the first sign that things were like, snowballing. The studios were right next to the house in Elstree. And so, I'm up in my office, kind of like, editing down the voiceover script. And then suddenly, there is a helicopter literally coming past the window.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Your first thought is, well, they can't see that because they can't have any contact with the outside world. So you're kind of like, you know, getting the housemates inside the house and putting the shutters down, which you've seen in the programme. But yeah, that was when it became pretty clear that it was becoming a massive news story. And obviously, a lot of people involved in dealing with that. At the same time, you're also rushing to get a show out in the, you know, the manner that you normally do, which is you've got a viewing in the morning. It gets, you know, sort of finessed and edited down for the broadcast that evening. Like I said, there's a voiceover script to edit and, you know, decisions to be made editorially. So on top of all of that, you have the, you know, the outside world having an impact

• 27:26Speaker 02

  on how you deal with what has been taking place in the house. And this is before the argument.

• 27:33Matt Forde?

  And what was the feeling within the team at that point? Because you're simultaneously, you've got, by any measure, now the most talked about TV show on the planet. But it's a point of kind of maximum peril because you simultaneously create a hit and a massive international news story that the Prime Minister gets drawn into. So are you thinking in some way this is success? Or are you thinking we are seconds away from being closed down?

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Again, I would say at some moments with, before it became quite vile, it wasn't unfamiliar that it was holding a mirror up to Britain in many ways. I don't think anyone, I certainly wasn't thinking, oh, this is great, this is a hit.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Your main concern is for the housemates themselves. And then secondary to that, you know, you need to get a show out. You need to, you need to make sure that you're doing your job.

• 28:32Matt Forde?

  So were you surprised that it became such a major diplomatic row? Rather than just a sort of TV reality row.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  That's literally the line from one of the news reports, isn't it? Major diplomatic row.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  It was a confluence of so many things, wasn't it? Like, obviously, there was the Ofcom complaints that were coming in. There was the, you know, there was the behaviour of what was going on inside the house. And then, completely by coincidence, Gordon Brown is arriving in India at the same time. Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, I think it was already part of the news that he was, you know, he was in line for the prime ministership. And then, yes, then making Prime Minister's Question Time and Tony Blair having to make a comment on it. Yeah, that was all unprecedented. The early stages of it, I think, were a little bit more familiar and then it just kind of snowballed and took over.

• 29:23Alice Levine?

  I mean, just to put it in context for people, eight million people watched Jade leave the house and Ofcom received over 40,000 complaints, the third highest number of complaints they'd ever had. You were one of many on the team, as you've said, you know, this is a network of people making constant decisions, you know, throughout the series. But did you have personal feelings, as you've said, you know, she was, for want of a better expression, part of the family and then she's out in the world and has no idea what this reaction has been. Did you have personal feelings about that?

• 29:56Speaker 02

  I mean, yes, it's kind of like, you know,

• 30:01Speaker 02

  you're sort of like, you know, shaking your head and, you know,

• 30:07Speaker 02

  wishing that she and the others weren't making it worse. So again, I felt protective towards her, but then I also, you know, I knew that I had responsibilities as a producer to make the show and to make it fair and balanced. And that, you know, there was a collective responsibility to decide what was legally and ethically fit for broadcast, whilst it was moving really, really fast. And again, it was unprecedented. We had had controversy before, but it had never been to that scale.

• 30:45Alice Levine?

  Would it have felt inappropriate then to you and the team to remove it from the edit? Leave it in the stream, but you know, be ready for people to ask the question why it wasn't there, but kind of have it justified because it was hateful?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  There's legal and editorial guidelines coming together to decide what is going into the show with, you know, a time limit on when those decisions can be made.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  So it was always about contextualising what was happening and taking sort of, you know, legal guidelines about what was fit for broadcast.

• 31:24Alice Levine?

  And I guess previously, nothing of high drama or nothing of high controversy would have been taken out. Of course, that would have gone in the episode.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  If it could be contextualised within the broadcasting code and it was truthful and necessary, then it would go into the show. Yeah.

• 31:43Matt Forde?

  Because there are ethical considerations with leaving something out as well, aren't there? You would be manipulating the truth. You know, removing something like that, which would then reflect far more favourably on the people that had crossed a line. You could make the case that that's ethically worse than than broadcasting it.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  I think you could make that case. I mean, I think, obviously, you know, reflecting back on it, there were interventions that, you know, could and should be made. But yeah, again, it was being streamed live. That also could be an argument. People were watching that. I mean, it wasn't all broadcast because it happened in the daytime. But people were aware that that had happened because it was on streaming.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  And also, you have to be fair to Shilpa. You know, you have to give the context of that argument and, and, you know, the sort of levels of anger that were being displayed, that, you know, sort of forced heart had responded and reacted. You had to make sure that everyone was aware of what had led to that. But yeah, I mean, you could argue that. But I think you're always making decisions based on a duty of care to the housemates and also following the broadcasting code where you can.

• 32:57Matt Forde?

  And it's obviously easy in hindsight to say, oh, this should have happened. But what could have been done differently at the time to either protect Shilpa or indeed, you know, protect Jade?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  We certainly could have challenged them a little bit more. In hindsight, very easy to say this. They could have been challenged more on what might have been termed at the time as casual racism, but is now, I think, widely regarded as simply racism. But they could have been challenged, I think, on that. And we did challenge them on quite a few things, but, you know, not 100% effective at the time.

• 33:37Alice Levine?

  I don't think it's too strong to say that many people hated Jade. You know, there was, there was real vitriol in the press and in the public. But a lot of people also felt really sorry for her. I'm wondering what your reaction was when you heard that Jade was going on Big Boss in India, hosted by Shil Peshati.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  I thought that's exactly the right thing to do. Well done.

• 34:02Alice Levine?

  Okay, go on.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  The one thing that Jade, I think that people forget about the whole furore around it was that Jade, she held herself accountable in a way that was quite

• 34:18Speaker 02

  intelligent and thoughtful. Her interview afterwards, she really held herself accountable to the comments that she had made. I think she recognized a part of her character that she didn't like, but she knew it was her. And she knew it was her behavior. And I think when she decided to do Big Boss, that was a chance for her to, in the environment that she was very used to being in, a chance for her to show the other side of her and to show accountability for her wrongs, essentially.

• 35:14Matt Forde?

  Did you ever imagine that Big Brother would be the mega hit that it was?

• 35:18Speaker 02

  No, I don't think anyone knew. I mean, I think there was definitely a buzz around it, hence the newspapers and the plane. And it wasn't big in the first instance as well. I can't remember, it was getting like 2 million viewers maybe, which I think was quite big for Channel 4 at the time. But it steadily built and steadily built as people sort of became familiar with the format. And then I think, obviously, nasty Nick Bateman's role was what blew it up. And remember, at that time as well, even that first series was streaming on the internet. That was relatively new as well, to a certain extent. People didn't, you know, you didn't have smartphones in your hand. I got a lot of texts from people during the build-up with Nick

• 36:02Speaker 02

  that sort of indicated that people were very, very interested in what was happening and couldn't wait until the show.

• 36:08Matt Forde?

  You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

• 36:12Alice Levine?

  As you say, serious strength of feeling. What do you think it said about society at the time that people were so consumed by it? I mean, kind of addicted to it. People couldn't not watch the stream.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  I think that it's interesting when you think about the reason that Nick Bateman became such a kind of villain figure was because he was cheating. And he wasn't playing fair. And he wasn't being himself. And he was lying. So, you know, the British sense of fair play is like, how dare they, how dare someone play a game in a game? And I think that kind of like, that became a kind of an aspect of what a popular and positive characteristic would be if you were going into Big Brother, is that you are yourself. And you don't play games and you don't cheat. Jade really believed in that?

• 37:04Speaker 02

  She really believed that you've got to be yourself, warts and all, every facet of your personality, just be honest, never be fake. It was always a big thing she always talked about. You know, it set off that row with Shilpa, that fakery aspect of it, the game playing. And the not showing who you really are. I think she saw Big Brother as a real leveler. Like, you know, she was working class, undereducated, had a really tough life, but she could be sharing a house with someone that had, as she put it, silver spoons and... You know, servants and all that sort of stuff. So I think that aspect of it really sort of permeates through those early series.

• 37:47Alice Levine?

  And other reality TV, I think, that authenticity, honesty thing becomes a very important characteristic of being on a reality show, which is kind of ironic because a lot of the reality shows that came later were constructed reality. But I feel like that was a hallmark of successful people on reality TV that people felt like they were being themselves.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Being themselves, absolutely authentic, yes, absolutely. To, you know, to a positive and negative reaction, depending on who that self was.

• 38:15Alice Levine?

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  You know that you're going in to be judged, to be, you know, liked or disliked, and that the public will participate in your success or failure based on that. That's social media. Likes, dislikes, cancelled for this, cancelled for that. Diary rooms where you, down a lens, talking to people at home directly, in the same way that you do now, with a phone in front of your face if you're an influencer.

• 38:47Alice Levine?

  And it was very human. Often, that was almost your only opportunity in Big Brother to speak freely. I feel like people had those conversations feeling like it was more off the record than any of the other conversations in the house.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Well, it was like, it was a very kind of intimate relationship between Big Brother and the housemates. Like, you know, that you're, it is an opportunity to talk in a kind of therapeutic sense about how things, you know, how things are unfolding in the house, your general kind of experience with certain people. Most housemates really felt that when they came to the diary room, it was like an offloading of things that they wouldn't say in front of other people, feelings they didn't want to hurt, or conflict they didn't want to be part of. So there was an element of therapy about it, I think.

• 39:35Alice Levine?

  Was there any part of you or the team that felt like they could have used that diary room time with Jade or with the other women who clubbed together against Shilpa to sort of redirect or kind of give them some tools to, to see the error of their ways?

• 39:51Speaker 02

  We would always give them tools like that. That was that from from day dot, it was always, have you spoken to your housemates about this? Um, is there anyone in the house that you could speak to that you could confide in? So those would have been ongoing, but that house was so divided and it was divided in a way that you had kind of almost boundaryless bitching and gossiping and name calling on one side. And the other side that were didn't want to engage with that and make it a thing. And I think that's, you know, potentially what didn't I didn't allow the house to come together and explore how

• 40:35Speaker 02

  harmony could be restored. It just continued along a divided line, which was unusual.

• 40:41Matt Forde?

  As you say, people go in knowing full well, they're going to be judged, they may be popular, they may be unpopular. But when you've got contestants that are then vilified and they're having to be evicted in an empty, it looks like a car park, but you know, that that Big Brother lot where even the crowds aren't allowed in. What sort of support do they get from productions in reality telly? Because I used to watch Jeremy Kyle and Big Brother and stuff. And Jeremy Kyle would always say, oh, Graham in the aftercare team. And I used to think they're not getting much support after this. You know, it feels like they're going to be left to their own devices. I don't know how much help Big Brother would have given someone like Jamie.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Fully supported, fully supported. Um, celebrity is a little bit different because they have agents and managers. So it kind of becomes a discussion. In the early stages of Big Brother, they had, we had a sort of interim agency that would help the housemates navigate the journey from housemate to ex-housemate. And, you know, they would field offers from newspapers and from other agencies that wanted to represent them. So there was a kind of interim agency. So from an agency and a PR and a marketing perspective, that was in place. And then the psychologists that had been instrumental in their assessments prior to going into the house were, that was the first person they met when they came out of the house.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  And then that aftercare continued throughout after that. And I think it's got even more and more robust as the years have gone on.

• 42:06Alice Levine?

  How do you think that Big Brother has changed the culture on the whole?

• 42:12Speaker 02

  We're in a kind of a post Big Brother world to a certain extent. Whether you're an influencer or not, or a commentator, or journalists, you know, you utilise social media to put their viewpoint out there and in response get either judged positively or negatively. Nowadays, people often thrive on the negativity that becomes their MO, is to stir things up because it gets them more followers and it gets them more traction. And so I think it is, yeah, it's like a sort of post-Big Brother world.

• 42:49Matt Forde?

  What's the right conclusion to draw about the effect of Big Brother on Jade Goody's life? Is it that it transformed her and gave her everything she'd ever dreamed of? Or is it that effectively it destroyed her?

• 43:02Speaker 02

  I think unfortunately you can't get a proper answer to that question because you would need to ask Jade. I think what definitely happened is she went through several redemption arcs before her untimely death. But she sort of started off as the girl that everyone laughed at and mocked, and ended up as the girl that everyone, most people, grieved. And I think, you know, that trajectory is pretty powerful.

• 43:33Matt Forde?

  I guess it's a bit of both, isn't it? It's, you know, it gave her everything and that in a way then is the strength and the weakness, isn't it? It completely exposes you for all your strengths and weaknesses. It gave her financial security for her children that she would never have been able to give them otherwise. It gave her the fame she craved and the love that she craved, but also it sort of put her flaws out there for the world to see.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yes, and but then she also, you know, she exploited that for her own gain. Like you said, you know, that was her, obviously her main objective in those sort of last months was to make sure that her kids were well set up. But, you know, she launched a business, she launched her perfume, she wrote biographies and she had her show on Living and she made the most of her opportunities right up until the very end, I think.

• 44:22Matt Forde?

  She the savviest Big Brother contestant of all time?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Possibly, possibly. I think she just understood what her life would have been like without it.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  And so she grabbed everything when it came her way, including going back in.

• 44:43Alice Levine?

  Finally, Paul, would you go on reality television?

• 44:47Speaker 02

  I would go on reality TV only if it wasn't televised.

• 44:51Alice Levine?

  I think you fundamentally misunderstand.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  I used to think that's something that I would have applied for if I hadn't been working in television, Big Brother specifically. And I've worked on a lot of shows since. I think if there was one show, which I've also worked on, I would love to experience Survivor.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I think it's, it really is another great leveler. There's no public vote in that, it's all internal. You know, it's internal decisions as to who goes and who stays. Meanwhile, you're also surviving on a remote island. I'd probably want to do that.

• 45:28Alice Levine?

  Would you make good telly?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. Probably not a big standout character, really.

• 45:37Alice Levine?

  You've got to be more controversial, Paul, come on. That was so brilliant. Thank you so much for shedding light on a story that we've been fascinated by for the last few weeks. It's been incredible. Thank you.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  No worries.

• 45:49Matt Forde?

  That was brilliant.

• 45:53Alice Levine?

  Thank you so much to Paul Osborne. Okay, Matt, what do you have for me next time?

• 45:57Matt Forde?

  Alice, we are taking a trip to Wales in the mid 70s.

• 46:01Alice Levine?

  Oh no, what happened to the sheep?

• 46:03Matt Forde?

  Oh my god. I genuinely thought better of you, but not quite, although a farm was involved. Think psychedelic.

• 46:10Alice Levine?

  Oh, you'll feel right at home with that out film.

• 46:13Matt Forde?

  It has occasionally been said, but no. Another clue is hippies who thought they could change the world.

• 46:19Alice Levine?

  This isn't about an oatcake empire, is it?

• 46:22Matt Forde?

  Alice, you're so innocent. No, this is about LSD.

• 46:26Alice Levine?

  Oh, I see. So this is about drugs.

• 46:28Matt Forde?

  Yes, I'm talking about one of the world's biggest drugs busts. Millions of pounds of LSD, but at the heart of it are a group of people who thought they were saving the world through chemistry. Acid King is up next.

• 46:40Alice Levine?

  From Audible Originals and Samizdat Audio, this is the fourth and final episode in our series Jade Goody. British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.

• 46:50Matt Forde?

  And me, Matt Ford.

• 46:51Alice Levine?

  For Samizdat, the producer was Louise Mason. Our series producer was Chica Rares. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Estelle Doyle.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  On January 24, 2023, in Ducksbury, Massachusetts, Patrick Clancy called 911. He had found his wife Lindsay badly injured and his three children dead and dying. What followed would become one of the most searing and complicated cases in recent memory, raising hard questions about motherhood, mental illness, and how far our justice system will go to understand what really happened. I'm Candace DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Lindsay Clancy, the postpartum psychosis defense, the courtroom battle, and the trial that just ended in a stunning

• 47:53Speaker 03

  mistrial. Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead To real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  Listen to Over My Dead Body, Operation Side Swipe, wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.