Carl Nassib Former NFL star reflects on being the first openly gay football player in league, a story of true courage, breaking barriers, locker room acceptance and his game vs Lamar Jackson being historically recognized

“I hope there’s a world where you don’t have to come out of the closet because you never have to go in. We get to see each other for humanity and not what makes us different.” Carl Nassib former NFL player In a groundbreaking and deeply personal episode of The Pivot Podcast, Ryan Clark, Fred Taylor, and Channing Crowder sit down with Carl Nassib — former NFL defensive end, entrepreneur, and trailblazer — for an unfiltered conversation about football, identity, and forging your own path. Carl, who was the first active NFL player to come out as gay in 2021, may be tied to that moment forever but his purpose and legacy on and off the field goes far beyond all of that. From his early days at Penn State to making NFL history with the Las Vegas Raiders, the guys go through his football journey and explore the courage, challenges, and cultural impact of Nassib’s voice in society and sports. Carl opens up about the moment that changed his life and the NFL forever: becoming the first active player to come out as gay. He discusses the weight of that decision, the support he received, and the backlash he had to navigate. The conversation takes us through Carl’s mindset through his playing days with the Browns, Raiders, and Buccaneers, the highs and lows of being a professional athlete, and how his personal journey intersected with his career. But this episode goes beyond headlines. Carl shares insight into his post-football ventures, including his work with The Trevor Project and his foray into the world of finance and entrepreneurship. With honesty and humor, he talks about what it means to live authentically, redefine masculinity, and make space for others to do the same. He talks on how he misses the brotherhood of the NFL locker room, the bond with his coaches and teammates, his historical game vs Lamar Jackson and how his jersey will be a part of history at the Smithsonian museum. Carl's story has reshaped the conversation around LGBTQ+ representation in professional sports as well as opened the minds of others who for so long couldn't grasp the idea while inspiring a new generation of athletes to live authentically. Tap in for a powerful and thought-provoking discussion that challenges assumptions, celebrates courage, and highlights the strength it takes to pivot — both on and off the field. Full episode streaming now on YouTube and don't forget to hit the subscribe button and comment your thoughts below! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Ryan Clark?

  You get taller when you come in, though.

• 0:31Channing Crowder?

  You're not gonna get taller.

• 0:33Ryan Clark?

  I could look taller.

• 0:34Channing Crowder?

  He got you by a foot.

• 0:36Ryan Clark?

  A whole, like a foot. You know what I'm saying? God, look. Don't be scared.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  What's up, guys?

• 0:41Ryan Clark?

  What's happening, man? Good to see you. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Last time I saw you was in the airport, man. I was? Leaving, leaving Europe, I believe. Oh, yeah. That was a good trip. Cam was great. Yeah. Pretty nice. Yeah. Pretty good.

• 1:15Ryan Clark?

  Well, Carl Nassim, welcome to the show.

• 1:17Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:18Ryan Clark?

  Welcome to the Pivot. This is Fred Taylor. This is Channing Crowder. I'm Ryan Clark, Pivot fan. Thank you for pivoting with us. Man, a seven-year career, right? Played for three different teams.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29Ryan Clark?

  The one thing I thought was really cool, though, and I want to get to it later, was you thanking Spy Tech and Light for helping you with your career.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  100%. Twice.

• 1:39Ryan Clark?

  Twice.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Twice.

• 1:40Ryan Clark?

  You know, we'll get to it. You walk in, man, we talked about how tall you were.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44Ryan Clark?

  Right? And we know length is a part of playing the defensive line. How does the eventual Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year have to enter Penn State as a walk-on?

• 1:53Speaker 03

  Great question. I was, you know, technically like a late bloomer. You know, I was 5'9" as a freshman in high school. And by the time I left high school, I was like 6'6". But I never started a game in high school. Was a little bit of a nerd. I love school. All my best friends were nerds. And, you know, it was weird. Like, my older brother was a star quarterback. He was, you know, playing at Syracuse. And then there I was, this like lanky kid who, you know, I was a good player, but, you know, wasn't, wasn't a starter, wasn't a big name on the team. And then I got kind of lucky. I played against Skylar Morningwig. He was a court, like he was, you remember Morningwig? He was a OC for the, for the Birds for a while.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  So my last game in high school, I played against his son and I had like three sacks. And it was like, I was like, I'm, you know, I got in the local newspaper. And that was kind of what got me the walk-on spot. It was, I got really lucky.

• 2:48Channing Crowder?

  When did it click though? Cause Big Ten deepest player of the year, you, we were walk-on. When, when did you know it clicked?

• 2:54Speaker 03

  I don't know. I like, I remember when I got to Penn State. If you've ever been to the Penn State football building, they have this huge wall of All-Americans. Have you seen it? And it goes back to like the late 1800s.

• 3:05Channing Crowder?

  My dad is on that.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  No way.

• 3:06Channing Crowder?

  My dad went to Penn State. He was the first, first black captain ever to play for Penn State back in 1971 or something crazy.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  That's incredible, man.

• 3:16Channing Crowder?

  I visited Penn State, but they [__] up because they brought me up in January.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 3:21Channing Crowder?

  It was four feet of snow on the ground. Me and Courtney Brown.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:25Channing Crowder?

  Sat in a room and the girls, and we sat there and watched the sitcom. And I was like, this is the worst school ever.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  No, that's bad. That's a bad, that's a bad look. That's why they have spring games. Why, why didn't they bring you up in the spring?

• 3:36Channing Crowder?

  Brought me up there January 11th.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a bad look. I mean, I remember those winter workouts at 5:00 AM, you know, really tested you. They were the worst that could possibly imagine. He's on that wall with me. That's amazing. But I remember being like 18 years old and walking by that wall every day. And I was like, I want to be on that [__] wall.

• 3:52Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  For years, like that I was there, I was a walk-on. And this wasn't like the fun days now of walk-ons that they get brand deals, that they're doing all these cool things. Like I had to pay to eat with the team. We didn't even work out with the scholarship kids. Like it was a different time for walk-ons and I still wanted to be on that wall.

• 4:08Fred Taylor?

  I have some history with, it was pretty tough. Billy O'Brien, Billy O. Yeah, talk about the moment in the spring game when you told him you were going to make it to the NFL? And he kicked you out of his office or something?

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:21Fred Taylor?

  Disrespectful?

• 4:22Speaker 03

  That was the worst. Kind of moment where you know you tell somebody your dream and they just kind of shoot you down. So this was, I think I was like 19 at the time, but this was after the spring game, right after the spring game. Where you do those like exit meetings, like after spring ball, like you go to the head coach. And I was a walk on, I hadn't played yet, I hadn't even like sniffed the field. And but I knew I wanted to play in the league like my brother was quarterback, he was about to get drafted. And so I go to his office and I say, hey, coach, you know, I haven't played here much, but my dream is to play in the NFL. He's like, let me stop you right there. I was like, oh shit. He was like, for you to play here on scout team at Penn State would be a miracle.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  He's like, for you to tell me you want to play in the NFL is consulting, get the fuck out. And I left and I was like, man, I have never been, you know, told something like that from somebody who knows the game. Like that dude won three Super Bowls with Brady, you know what I mean? And there wasn't some like chump in the stands talking shit like it was, you know, it was a pretty tough moment. Didn't really tell anybody about it for years because it was so embarrassing. That summer, right after the spring game, that summer, you know, every day I was benching. I was like, you know, picturing his face, you know what I mean? And so that summer I like gained like 15 pounds of muscle, lost 10 pounds of fat and then kind of turned my career around. So it was a catalyst to really, you know, accelerate my time at Penn State.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  And, you know, that camp, I had like 60 sacks in like a couple of weeks. I was like camp player of the year. The craziest part about it was at the end of that camp, right before the season, like I had run out of money. I was paying for school myself, like taking out loans. And then I got a call on like the week before our first game. And it was like, yo, head coach wants to see you. I was like, damn, like it's over. I, they're gonna know I didn't pay my bill, like this was fun. I'm glad I went out on a high note, like I had a great time in camp. And then I get called up and one of my best friends Darren was, you know, walking up with me. He's like, what the hell's going on? And I get up to the top where the coaches offices and then my buddy Devin is walking out of his office. I'm like, what the hell's going on? And Devin looks at us, he goes, I just got put on scholarship.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  So me and my buddy Darren are like, is this happening for us? Is this happening? Cause he was a walk-on too. We were all walk-ons together. Darren walks in first, I'm shaken. He walks out, doesn't even look at me. You know, and he just like walks out. So I go back into, you know, Billy O's, Billy O's office. And he's like, you know, man, like, I know we had a tough conversation a couple of, few months ago. Like you proved me wrong and like, we're going to put you on scholarship.

• 6:51Ryan Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  It was like, and anybody knows football, knows what it's like to be a walk-on, knows like, like how hard walk-ons work. Like that was one of the best, if not the best moment in my football career. Because it was so make or break. And then I walk back down to locker room. Darren is like sitting in my locker like this. And like, we just like hugged it out. It was cool. Yeah. So it was a, it was a big moment.

• 7:12Fred Taylor?

  Carl, but it's, it's so easy to quit though. Like after hearing that, being a walk-on, knowing how hard it is, seeing what the other guys are going through.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:20Fred Taylor?

  You could have easily said, you know what? He's right. He's seen it all. He's patriot, the dynasty, but you didn't. Why not?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  I think I've kind of always had this mentality. I never wanted to be mediocre in anything. I hate losing a lot more than I like winning. When I win at something, I have to like actively try and celebrate things. Because I just feel like winning is something I'm supposed to do. And I feel like that's a lot of athletes, you know? I don't think I'm that unique when it comes to pro athletes, college athletes. Where you hear things that you have to have a really good positive self-talk. And that carries you through a lot of things. But I think when players lose that positive self-talk and they lose that confidence. And I had no reason to have the confidence either. Like I had never played. You know what I mean? Like you were looking at me. When I got to pass A, people were like, oh shit, we got a new punter. This kid's tall as hell. You know what I mean? I was like, ah, no, I'm a D end tight end. I don't know where I'm going to fit in yet.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  But I think the positive self-talk was what really kept me in it.

• 8:16Ryan Clark?

  You know, you mentioned in that positive self-talk, I was undrafted guy.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:20Ryan Clark?

  Right? And so when I wouldn't make the team or when I'd get cut and get put on practice squad. I always had the fight that, you know, this is why they didn't draft you in the first place.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:30Ryan Clark?

  Or they still believed the things they believed about you then. And it was always. Not difficult, but it was always intentional for me to not fall into that mindset.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:40Ryan Clark?

  To not believe those things about myself. You know, you talked about that positive self-talk though. How did you use that when you got to the league and you were let go? Because when you come from being a walk-on to getting to that position.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:53Ryan Clark?

  You could easily go, damn, I got cut. Maybe I was never as good as they thought I was when I was winning awards in college.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  I always wanted to be the best and I had coaches tell me, stop saying that. Like be the best you can be. And I was like, man, that is the worst advice you could give anybody.

• 9:11Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Like strive to be the best you can be. Lame. You know what I mean? Just, I wanted to be the best and was I the best? By no shot was I the best. But like, I know that I hung my helmet up. Like I gave it everything I could. And I feel like if you're aiming for the best you can be, that can get kind of, you know, blurry of like what you're striving for. And if you're always comparing yourself to the best and not just making up fake milestones. It just really carried me through a lot more. But getting fired multiple times is pretty humbling. I got fired on Hard Knocks. Have you guys ever been fired on Hard Knocks?

• 9:46Ryan Clark?

  No, I know that.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Okay, I got that. I got that one on you guys. Yeah, that was tough. International television, got fired. But then I got picked up right by the Bucks. Jason Light picked me up and I think Spy Tech's now with the Raiders too. I gotta text them. But twice they picked me up after I got cut. So those guys are the men.

• 10:01Channing Crowder?

  I'm sure at your size, you could have went to a smaller school than Penn State. Like you said, it's funny you say that, like set your goals of being the best you can be and all this stuff. You could have went to Western Kentucky and had a scholarship. You could have went somewhere and had a scholarship. But those guys that set their goals to play at Penn State, a lot of dudes ain't gonna be like you, bro. They're not gonna be called up in the office.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, when I was a senior in high school, I was like, again, I was kind of a nerd. Like I wanted to go to med school. You know, I got my degree in biology. I got all my med school prereqs. I think that's kind of the track that I wanted to go in. And so when I got the call from my dad, hey, Penn State offered you a walk-on spot. I was like, oh shoot, let's go there. I was gonna go to a school in Philly and just become a doctor in Philly. So I wasn't even thinking about playing college ball because my high school experience was so shitty. And then when I got the call to Penn State, it was like, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. Penn State's, you know, as you know, the guys is like one of the best football programs in America. So I couldn't pass that up.

• 10:59Ryan Clark?

  You really are a nerd, man.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:01Ryan Clark?

  Like you, bro, I remember seeing you on Hard Knocks.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:04Ryan Clark?

  Right, and you're on the board and you're telling people, you're like, hey, man, so if you got a million dollars and it increases by this, and then it increases by this.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  It's crazy though.

• 11:13Ryan Clark?

  And you're like, in this many years, you'll have this. And then everybody was like, well, Miles got 30 million.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Put that on the board. I remember that, man.

• 11:21Ryan Clark?

  What was that moment about? And how did you forget that the cameras were rolling? Because you're giving a freaking financial TED Talk to football players.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  I will give that talk whenever, however. I mean, it's so important. A friend of mine just gave me a Tony Robbins book and it taught me, I remember reading like the math over 30 years, what if you just invested at 7%, you know, 7% to 10% every year for, you know, as a long-term investor, what that can do for you in creating generational wealth for, you know, marginalized communities, what that could do. And I was like, this needs to be talked about. I said it in a very interesting way. You know, I was emphatic, to say the least, about, you know, I do curse a lot, but that was one of the more colorful lessons that have been told. And it's important. I mean, like, financial literacy, financial wellness is wildly important. I've been trying to be an advocate for that for like years.

• 12:11Ryan Clark?

  How does that go over? Because I'll say I was the wild strip club, man, get the hell out of here with this. I was the wild guy. So that clip of you doing that, I'd have been doing it back like, what the hell is this big ass white boy talking about, man? Get out of here. How did that go over?

• 12:28Speaker 03

  It was great.

• 12:29Ryan Clark?

  But being a, I guess, being a nerd in NFL locker room.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  There were some other nerds too. Like, there were some Ivy League, there were some Ivy, I got some Ivy League school friends that were some nerds in there too. I wasn't nearly the smartest guy on the team. But, you know, I think as a millennial growing up and like you lived through the 2008 housing market crash, you kind of feel what it's like to feel financial stress. It's like, I never want to feel that again. You know what I mean? And being super frugal is like the best way to insulate yourself from, you know, stuff that's happening in the market today. Right? Like, people who don't do a good job at budgeting and like taking care of their finances, they are sweating bullets right now. But for people who do it day to day, in the, you know, best of times, they're, they're, you know, keeping, keeping their budget, they're chilling in times like this. Like, I really, you know, you talk about the strip club, I've never, I think I've

• 13:17Speaker 03

  been to a strip club a couple of times. But, you know, I lived in Vegas for two years. It was incredible. It was so fun. Like, I'm a king of blackjack. But... You know, we would be at the marquee lounge at the Casa Palatino. You guys ever been there? You know, like, there was, you know, friggin', Lil' John was playing. That was DJ. I was like, this is incredible. And I'm sitting there with my vodka sodas and having a great time. And then I see all these guys, they have tables. You know what I mean? They're, all the sparklers are getting all of it. And I'm like, I go to my friend, I'm like, yo, are we living life wrong? Like, should we be doing that? Because we know we're, you know, we're making eight figures and this, these nerds are like here for a bachelor party or something. Right? Like, we should be doing stuff like this. And he goes, hey, man, like, they buy bottles, we buy properties.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  And that kind of stuck with me. You know what I mean? And that, that was some gangster shit right there. Like, that was... And to this day, I mean, I bought a property here in New York last year. And I own, and I'm really proud of that because the only reason why I could afford it was because how tight I was with my budget for seven years in the league. Like, I was tight with it. And I just encourage all athletes, and now that these college kids can make money, they need to be really good with it, too.

• 14:23Fred Taylor?

  We kind of skipped over it a little bit, but you went from wanting to be drafted, being overconfident for a moment, to finally getting drafted. Go back to draft night, that experience, and then the locker room. Actually getting there and going from being confident to, was there ever a moment you felt intimidated?

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. I got drafted to the Browns and I had to go against Joe Thomas in camp. That's, that is humbling. You know what I mean? That's intimidating. And he's a nice guy. Like, Joe's the best tackle of all time, and he could have been the meanest guy. And he's a, he's a great dude. But I do remember, I think my first preseason game was at Lambeau. And I remember like walking out onto the field with my buddies, being like, oh, shit, we're in the NFL. Like, this is crazy. A year ago, I hadn't even started a football game since eighth grade. You know what I mean? That's a crazy year. Right before my senior year of college, I never started a game since eighth grade. And then I was walking out of the tunnel of Lambeau Field a year later. You know, it was pretty incredible. And I wasn't so much intimidated because I did kind of feel like I was that dude. You know, leaving college, I had like all the, you know, excitement of it.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  But we did go 1-31 my first two years in the league.

• 15:30Fred Taylor?

  That's crazy.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  That was tough. Like, that was really tough. Because all athletes, we just want to be winners. You know what I mean? And then, you know, when you win a championship... When you aren't a good playoff team, those guys like stick around. You know what I mean? But when you're like on a losing team, people, oh, that guy's been a part of a losing culture. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't know how to win. So it's kind of a lot, a lot tougher than you think to be on those losing teams early on.

• 15:56Ryan Clark?

  Carl, to go back to the Hard Knocks moment, the financial stability.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:00Ryan Clark?

  Talk and part of that sort of education for those young men, you say, yeah, and I was going to meet Taylor Swift and I almost bought a roly. But I didn't because of this. And what I want to get to is, in that moment, did you feel like you had to bring up a woman? Or sort of phrase it that I was going to meet Taylor Swift and here's my roly because that's what you did in locker rooms?

• 16:24Speaker 03

  It's a great question. It's a really good question. First off, I gotta say, I've been a Taylor Swift fan way longer than all these other bandwagon fans. Excuse me. And also, the closet door was made of glass. I mean, I was the biggest Taylor Swift fan my entire life and I don't know how anybody didn't, didn't see that.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  I don't know, man. I'd never been asked that question before. That's a good question. I think there was probably some, I mean, there was a ton of things that I would say to like curate, you know, a look of like, oh, I was straight. Oh, I wasn't gay, obviously. Didn't have a guaranteed contract. I was very worried about getting outed and I didn't want to, you know, have all the work that I put in at Penn State my entire life kind of be taken away. So I guess that is one of the more funny moments of where I was kind of putting on a little fake show to try and, you know, show that I was.

• 17:12Ryan Clark?

  If you had been trying to put on a fake show for so long.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:16Ryan Clark?

  What finally made you comfortable on June 21st of 2021? To be very straightforward and say, oh, by the way, guys, I'm gay.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. I knew I wanted to do it for like years before that. There was a few catalysts that really were like, yo, you gotta do this. Two big ones. First one was my uncle, who was my mom's youngest brother, was gay. And my mom was 112 Irish Catholic. And so he passed away in about 2019, end of 2019. And I was only out to like my siblings and my close friends at this point and my parents. And when he was passing away of cancer, my mom called me and she was like, you gotta go down and see Uncle Bill. So I was playing the Seahawks. I tore my, I didn't tear my groin, but I like pulled my groin bad in Seattle. So I get the call. Fly back to Tampa, then I had to fly the next day back to or up to DC to go see him.

• 18:06Speaker 03

  And he was doing better like the year before, but you know, I saw him on his deathbed and he was in a really bad shape and you know, I came out to him. We were from a huge family, 44 first cousins. And he was the only gay guy and the gay person in the entire family. When I came out to him, he and his husband were there and he was like, this is the biggest weight off of my chest. He's like, I'm not the only one. And like those words, I'm like, man, there's probably so many people out there that are going to feel that same way. And so that was, I felt really charged after that. And you know, I do feel, I'm not regret, but I was like, oh, if I could in a perfect world, I could have come out earlier and like kind of been his backup. You know what I mean? Kind of could have been there for him a lot more than than I was. And that really spurred like, hey, I gotta do this, you know?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  And then five months later, I signed a great contract with the Raiders, had a bunch of guaranteed money. And I felt like, damn, like now they can't touch me, right? So there was no like, I was like, this isn't even like something I want to do. This is something I need to do. You know what I mean? I have been gifted so many rights, so many freedoms that the previous generation in my community did not have. It's like, I can't just sit on these and rake it in, especially when I have the guaranteed money, especially when I have a really hard touch point of what it was like, you know what I mean? For the generation before me through my uncle. And then COVID hit. And then, you know, right before that, I think George Floyd got killed.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  And so there was a lot of turmoil with, you know, with the NFL, with social justice, with COVID. There's a lot going on. So I actually read The Room in 2020. I was like, this isn't the time, Carl. Like you do not need to add anything to this. So then I waited until 2021. I knew I wanted to take a lot of that attention and bring it to the Trevor Project. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with the Trevor Project.

• 19:52Ryan Clark?

  You donated like a hundred thousand dollars right away?

• 19:54Speaker 03

  And then the NFL mashed it, you know, I'm now on the board of the Trevor Project, which is great. They're an amazing organization, but I knew it would get a lot of attention. So I wanted to make sure that attention got put to a good place.

• 20:04Ryan Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 20:05Channing Crowder?

  I've never heard the closet door was glass.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:09Channing Crowder?

  Did people know, I've never heard that phrase.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  I'm at a Taylor Swift concert and like losing my mind and like everyone's like, oh, that's cool. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. So, yeah.

• 20:21Ryan Clark?

  He said, everybody was like, oh, that's cool.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  But I remember, I'm really annoyed about that because I remember I had great tickets. And I met her before the concert. I met her parents. Like, they're great. They're awesome people. And I couldn't get one of my teammates to come with me. And then now the Eras Tour is like this huge moment and everybody was going. A bunch of nerds, man. Pissing me off.

• 20:42Channing Crowder?

  Did teammates know I had dudes in college that I knew were gay?

• 20:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:47Channing Crowder?

  And I don't know why they would tell or tell me, but like, we knew when we'd ask and they'd say it. But they weren't, like I was saying, that was, I was in college in early 2000s.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's different.

• 20:58Channing Crowder?

  They weren't ready for that.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 20:59Channing Crowder?

  Did people know before you were?

• 21:02Speaker 03

  I have no idea. Maybe. I don't think so. I mean, I wouldn't have a girlfriend for a long time. They'd be like, you know, you get weird looks. So it was like, I have no idea. I couldn't, I can do a poll. You know what I mean? And see, and I could ask people like, hey, did you know before I told you? I have no idea. Yeah, it kind of all went down as perfectly as it could have. I feel very lucky. And really blessed and grateful that I got to come out and be supported. So many people before me came out and they got ostracized. They got fired. They got all these different things. And so that's a big reason why I work at the Trevor Project is we help, you know, the LGBTQ youth. And I was like, well, I gotta pass this down, right?

• 21:38Speaker 00

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• 22:08Fred Taylor?

  Even in that community support, like after you came out, your coaches, teammates, was there any one moment that you felt like it truly touched? You know what I mean?

• 22:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:19Fred Taylor?

  My reactions.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  It's cool when my family gets approached by people saying like, hey, you know, well, Carl did like really help me come out, help me, you know, have a tough conversation with my family. Those are really cool and I've, it's the biggest blessing in the world. I've had so many people come up to me still to this day. I mean, it's about to be four years later and it goes by like that. And we're still talking about it. You guys, you know, are great allies, like give a voice to people like me. So like it's, they're all, all these moments are still happening. I would have to make a very, very long list. Yeah, it's just, I can't even count how many cool moments have come from it.

• 22:54Ryan Clark?

  So kind of full circle for you right now, it could be Kalen Saunders of the New Orleans Saints.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  The man, I just DM'd him the other day.

• 23:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, so his brother.

• 23:04Speaker 03

  What an ally.

• 23:04Ryan Clark?

  A backup dancer.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  For T. Swift.

• 23:06Ryan Clark?

  For Taylor Swift.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:08Ryan Clark?

  And he's now putting on an LGBTQ friendly camp.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  10 out of 10.

• 23:13Ryan Clark?

  When you think about where you were and trying to make sure you were secure before telling the world.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:20Ryan Clark?

  That you were gay, what does it say about the progression of football? That now an active football player could be doing this for the LGBTQ community?

• 23:31Speaker 03

  It's incredible. Shout out to their parents for like having two incredibly successful sons in two very different industries. Like they're, those guys are killing it. You know, I had so many people send me that and I was so proud, so thankful that he was doing that. It goes a long way and the fact that it's like, it's a, it's a camp where, and I say this a lot, the pipeline to the NFL and to pro sports, it's actually a lot more homophobic than pro sports because we're adults, this is where we go to feed our family, like people aren't immature and stupid. But, you know, high school, college route, I feel like there can be a lot of change there. And so what they're doing is really strategic, it's really impactful. I just kind of love that I kind of found out about it later, like it's not even through me. Like I don't have to be the gateway to do all these things.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  It's like they're happening without me. I think that's 10, it's amazing.

• 24:18Ryan Clark?

  How much pressure did you feel as the gateway gay guy? You know what I mean? Like it's almost like. Because you know how it is when you become the first of anything, right? Like when, if you're a black man and you're the first to do this, now everybody points to you or wants to pull on you.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  I know what you mean, yeah.

• 24:35Ryan Clark?

  And wants to pull on you because, hey, you, you did it and you did it first. How much, you know, you gotta give back.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Such a great question.

• 24:41Ryan Clark?

  Hey, Carl, now you, you've done it and, and you've said that you were gay, so you gotta be with us in everything. How much pressure was it on you, once you did make the announcement to be like, I have to be everywhere, I have to do everything, I have to touch all the people?

• 24:55Speaker 03

  You see it in different aspects. First woman to do this, first black man to do this, first gay person to do this. You see it in all, in different industries where people have not had the opportunities to get to the top. And you want the focus to be, you even see this with black coaches in the NFL. Like, still today, they're like, hey, like, Todd Bowles going against Tomlin, what does that mean? Like, that was, I remember that was like last year.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 25:20Ryan Clark?

  Right, back when I was black.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  Like, Doris, you know what I mean? Like, Todd is my favorite coach I've ever had. Like, I remember, Tomlin is like maybe my favorite coach.

• 25:30Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  I remember coming out in the draft and I was at the Combine and I was meeting him. He was the coolest guy ever. Like, I was like, man, I wanna play for this guy. Like, this is cool, even though I grew up a Birds fan. But it's interesting because you don't wanna discredit all the work that people have done before you to, you know, give you this opportunity. And, but at the same time, you wanna be remembered for your work and you wanna be remembered for your accomplishments. And so, I remember before coming out, it was the biggest thing that I was worried about. I was like, oh shit. Like, I was, first walk on and become an All-American, I broke three records at Penn State, I won five national awards, I liked it, all these things, right? And the only thing I wanna be remembered for is like being the token gay guy. And that was really tough for me to like overcome.

• 26:14Speaker 03

  And then I was like, if this is the only thing that I'm gonna, like, is it gonna be the only negative, I still gotta do it. Cause there are people out there in like way tougher positions than me. But it's, you know, it's a balance, you know? I get called up for a bunch of different things. I finance things for LGBTQ issues, football stuff. Like, I'm now a tech founder and I still talk about football stuff. So it's, I, you know, you can be multifaceted and that's okay. Early on, I did feel like, ooh, maybe when is it, like, when is there gonna be a chance where I just get remembered only for like my accomplishments, you know?

• 26:44Ryan Clark?

  I would tell you.

• 26:46Channing Crowder?

  That I went back and looked at your accomplishments when you were the first gay guy that came out.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:52Channing Crowder?

  Like even at Penn State and all, like I was, I'm a grown man now. Like I'm not worried about college kids, but when you came, then I went back and I saw you play and I'm like, okay. And we went back and looked, so I guess the negative of how you were saying, I don't want to, this be forgotten.

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:05Channing Crowder?

  I think a lot of people now know your career better.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  That's a great point.

• 27:08Channing Crowder?

  With the front of it.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 27:10Channing Crowder?

  Because now it's like, damn. He could play. Motherfucking Big Ten player, yeah. Big Ten is a nigga.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:15Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, so I think it was different than that, but RC brings up the first of things, and we've all seen 42. With Jackie Robinson, right? Did you have any of those moments, remember when they let Jackie in and now the ignorance? And I almost don't want a bad story because everybody think football players are these big meatheads that don't understand anything.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:34Channing Crowder?

  Like, did, did?

• 27:35Speaker 03

  I got funny stories.

• 27:36Channing Crowder?

  Are there the meatheads out there?

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Nah, man, I got a few funny stories that are so hilarious. This was 2020, I was on the Raiders and we were playing the Browns. And I think Baker was a quarterback and he's a very mobile quarterback, but they ran like three bootlegs away from me. And you know when you're on the opposite end of a bootleg, you gotta chase it all the way over there. And they did three bootlegs in a row to start the second, second half. I was so mad and these are all my former teammates. And so I'm chasing the third one, I said, stop the gay ass bootlegs. The entire Browns O-line turn around and be like, you can't say that. And I was like, oh man, the league is ready for this, you know what I mean? Like, oh, they are ready for me. Like, we got some allies here. You know what I mean? I was like, this is so funny.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  Like the, the guy that's about to come out saying a word gay, getting shut down by five massive dudes. Like it was like in stereo, you can't say that. And like, he's just like all like started running after the ball. It was hysterical. So like, well, I had, I have to acknowledge like my own moment where I was a little bit ignorant. But stop running boots, you know what I mean? Like, stick in the pocket. You know, one of my favorite things was right after I came out, I came back to Vegas. And one of my buddies, I don't even remember his name, this is messed up. He was a rookie, undrafted guy, and I can't remember his name. But it was so funny when I got back, he was like, "Hey Carl, how was your gaycation?" And I was like, "That is the funniest shit I've ever heard in my entire life." And it's a quote from The Office. I don't know if you guys have ever watched The Office.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  But no, man, like, I like, it was very few and far between. And people are very, very weary to talk shit to me in person. You know what I mean? Like, people, you know, Twitter fingers are live to this day, but not many people will say things in person. Yeah.

• 29:22Fred Taylor?

  Like thus, you're on a full-time, well, I guess not. But you're on a full-time gaycation in post-career.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 29:30Fred Taylor?

  Did I say it right?

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's good, I like it.

• 29:32Fred Taylor?

  Okay, what are your post-career?

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Hey, man. Listen, we want to be to do these shows after Carl now, too.

• 29:39Fred Taylor?

  He made it light, I'm not making it light.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  No, you're good, that's good, I like it.

• 29:42Fred Taylor?

  So, no, but no, you're...

• 29:44Speaker 03

  I'm retired, I'm retired. Don't let him grab you now. That's a big old some bitch right there now.

• 29:50Fred Taylor?

  I'm not running up on him. But no, in your, in your post-career.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:54Fred Taylor?

  Is there anything that keeps you going? Like, what's your direction right now?

• 29:57Speaker 03

  I actually started a, you know, a software startup that I mentioned earlier. It's called RAYZE, R-A-Y-Z-E. You know, we're a mobile app and software platform, and we try to accelerate all different types of philanthropy. We try and connect people and businesses to nonprofits. And, you know, in America, people really have no clue how important the philanthropy and nonprofit industry is. You know, it's a $3 trillion industry. And America, you know, we're a capitalistic society where, you know, you get what you earn. It's all about like, how much output can you put in? And we don't do the best job at like, providing for our most vulnerable.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  And that's where, you know, nonprofits come in, churches come in, schools come in, social programs come in. And less and less people are giving, less and less people, you know, corporations are pulling back. So, my mission is to make those interactions as seamless as possible with RAYZE. And hopefully, get more people involved, get more companies involved, and get more funding to people that need it the most. But yeah.

• 31:01Fred Taylor?

  Did you struggle at all post-football?

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Nothing too serious. I mean, I love my job now. Being surrounded by athletes, they're the most passionate, hardworking people in the world. Now I get to talk with nonprofit CEOs and nonprofit people every day. Those people are the most passionate people I ever meet. They take low salaries to help out people in really tough situations, and they do it because out of the kindness of their hearts. They could go into the private sector and make much more money. And so I feel very fulfilled, very excited that I get to work with Raise and try and help nonprofits. But there are huge aspects of football that I miss, you know what I mean?

• 31:38Ryan Clark?

  How much of your journey went into you wanting Raise to be about nonprofits? You know, and being able to help people who in some times may not have the means or the resources, or even be in a place to help themselves?

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Totally. I first got involved with nonprofits through the Special Olympics, Penn State and a little bit in high school. I loved working in Special Olympics. It was so much fun to see these athletes just love the game more than anybody. But then when I was volunteering in Tampa, this was actually with the team. We were volunteering at a local juvie center, and it was half a mile from our facility. You know, we spent the day with these kids. Some of them were like 12, 13 years old. And they're like in jail cells because they were running away from a violent home environment, right? They didn't even like commit a crime. They were just like picked off the street. And they just like wanted books to read, and it was a really, really tough day. You know, a lot of us, it was really emotional, really hard. But the crazy part was that this facility, this was, this center was a half a mile from the Bucks facility.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  And I drove by it every day for two years, and none of us knew that it was there. So like, this can't keep going. I wanted there to be an app on my phone where I can look up all the volunteering opportunities near me. I can get involved. Kind of be like the open table of volunteering. Where you're looking for a restaurant, just as easy as you see pizza near me. You can see, alright, I want to work with veterans. I want to work with animals. Like, you can find that easy. And that's kind of what started Raise. This is what started Raise. It was like, there needs to be more volunteering. But then I got more into the industry, and I learned that there's way more work to be done. And that's kind of what brought it out, yeah.

• 33:12Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, you know, you talk about the work being done and we've kind of moved past your football career a little bit because you are, you know, a lot more fascinating than that. But your first game playing after you came out as gay was against the Baltimore Ravens and Lamar Jackson. You got a sack in that game.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:31Ryan Clark?

  A sack fumble, actually, in that game and you guys win with the Raiders. What was it like to be back on the field in a regular season game and now there were no more secrets on your back?

• 33:43Speaker 03

  That was a sick game. That was the first game in Las Vegas with fans. It was after COVID. So it was like, Allegia Stadium was rocking and that is like a club. It is like the best stadium, one of the best stadiums, maybe the best in the NFL. I didn't really think about it that way. I thought about it like, hey, man, like I can now not just only represent the name on my back, the jersey, like the team, the team logo, but also my community. And kind of this can be like a, you know, an ode to everybody that came before me. I keep, you know, I kind of keep reiterating that, but I do mean it. And it's like a thank you. Like I'm out here because of y'all that came before me and paved the way. You know, Lamar is probably my favorite player right now. He's been my favorite player for a long time. I played on the Browns and then, you know, I played, I played him many times and I should have had so many sacks.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Luckily, that game, I actually got him down in overtime, but it was one of the best games I've ever, I'll ever remember. It was a huge moment for me. Yeah, it means a lot.

• 34:33Channing Crowder?

  They called me the pocket watcher on this show, so I looked up your contracts and yeah, you're not doing too bad in life. But with coming out, a community was gained. That's what made me think about, you said, you know, the, the community that's gained. Did you see the difference in the fans or the, you know, the, the gay football fans that now supported you more when coming out? Because I would think, I remember, I remember like they were, they were coming out, they were, they had flags and everything and I was jacked up about it. I'm like, yeah, you got a dude now. Go, go support your dude. Did you see that everywhere?

• 35:08Speaker 03

  I used to get hit in the head for a living, so I can't really remember. Yeah. And I mean, most games, if not all games, there was somebody there like with the sign with something, you know, something encouraging to say. And it happened all the time and it was just, you know, even more fun. Like the game is the most fun for the, for the players. You work 365 for a few, like for 12 or now it's, that's in college, but in the league, it's now 17 three-hour periods.

• 35:31Channing Crowder?

  You played for the Browns, so it was only 16, but.

• 35:33Ryan Clark?

  They get 17 now.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  I know, it's so bad. I am praying, I'm praying for a team to go 0-17. So like, we're not the worst record, you know what I mean? Like, us and the Lions are 0-16. I'm like, can somebody go 0-17, please?

• 35:48Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  But no, it was, it was awesome to see the fans that came out to support me, um, after coming out.

• 35:53Channing Crowder?

  I was asking that to say like, the negativity of it, like you're saying, the Twitter thing. Nobody's gonna walk up to you on the damn street downstairs and say nothing. But the negativity that you did get, the positivity offset it. And that was, it was almost surprising to me. Like, I love watching how the, the, the community embraced you for being the first.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And I was, I was a walk-on at Penn State, and I was on the Browns 0-16. Like, I have heard it all, you know what I mean? It wasn't an easy journey for me to get to be, you know, on the Raiders to come out. So, I had some pretty thick skin, but 10, like, it was 10 times out of 10, the positives outweigh the negatives. I do kind of want that to be like a takeaway for people, like, hey, people are gonna say shit, but the positives are gonna outweigh the negatives, you know, tenfold.

• 36:34Fred Taylor?

  When you do look back on everything, you know, your career, your post-career right now, building, uh, Rays and everything that you're doing.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:43Fred Taylor?

  Who do you, who do you see? And what's the difference in the person you see versus the person who you were prior to being drafted and, and, and coming up?

• 36:53Speaker 03

  I definitely feel like I'm a lot wiser. I can now engage in conversations that I didn't feel comfortable engaging in, you know, 10 years ago. I often tell people that you, like, it's very underestimated how much you can learn from a conversation. And I've had great conversations over the last, uh, seven, 10 years. But now, being out, being able to have more meaningful conversations, I've definitely learned a lot more, a lot wiser than I was, you know? Just to have a better perspective of life, like, what actually matters, um, what's important. And it's cool to look back. I was just, you know, had dinner with a friend last night, and we're like, damn, time moves very, very quickly. You know what I mean? It moves very, very fast. And it's good every once in a while to look past, you know, I always look forward to the future.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  But it is good to look back and make sure that you have grown and that you have become wiser, because a lot of people go through their entire lives and they're still stupid as hell. You know what I mean?

• 37:44Ryan Clark?

  Speaking of looking back, there's gonna be something really cool done with the jersey.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  Hell yeah.

• 37:48Ryan Clark?

  You wore in your first game after coming out. Talk a little bit about that.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, very excited to announce. So that jersey that I wore against the Ravens, my first game as an now player, will now be displayed at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History in DC. And they reached out to me last year. They said, hey, we would love to add this to our collection. I said, absolutely. Like, this is huge. You know, a little bit about me, I love museums. I love history. I love football, and I love the gays. You know what I mean? So this is a, this is a combination. It's a combination of everything.

• 38:21Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  It really is. Like, I don't get excited about a lot of things, but this is so dope, and I'm really excited. And it gets, you know, it gets put on display May 21st. I can't wait for my family to go see it, like, all my friends to go see it. And again, it's like, it's like, hey, this is, this is a thank you to people that came before me. And like, I really didn't do much for it. I was gifted all this, right? I was gifted these, gifted these opportunities. Like, I earned my spot as a football player, but like, I was gifted all these opportunities. And, you know, a big shout out to the museum for, you know, having that representation and telling gay stories, because history is not an accurate depiction of a sequence of events. It is actually curated stories. Like, people choose

• 39:03Speaker 03

  what stories and how they get told, you know, subjectively. It's not objective. So I really appreciate the Smithsonian for saying, hey, this is an important story. We want to make sure this gets remembered, because there's a lot of stories throughout gay history that don't really get included. So I feel very thankful. That's dope. I'm really pumped. I love DC. I love the Raiders. And I, you know, I just, I couldn't be happier.

• 39:24Speaker 05

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• 39:54Ryan Clark?

  In the gay community, is dating a football player a flex? You know, because like when, because Channing wasn't cute.

• 40:01Fred Taylor?

  Don't talk bad about me.

• 40:02Ryan Clark?

  Chan wasn't cute, but he played football.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:05Ryan Clark?

  Right? So because he played football, had money, was on TV on Sundays, he had opportunities to date people.

• 40:11Fred Taylor?

  What are you speaking?

• 40:12Speaker 03

  I'm retired now, so like, I'm old news. I'm old news. I don't know. I wish, you know what I mean? Yeah, you would see these ugly ass dudes bearing around like the most beautiful women. I was like, they don't like you.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  But I will say this, like, I'm a funny person objectively. Like, I think I'm one of the funnier people that I know. When I got to the NFL, I would tell stories or jokes that maybe were like B jokes, maybe C+, like, they weren't like good jokes. And I would get the biggest laughs. And I was like, you guys are not laughing at me for the right reasons. You know, I know my A-plus material will hit time and time again. So like, it wasn't so much like, oh, I needed it from people that I wanted to date. It was like, average people were, you know, buttering up to you. So NFL players, athletes, they don't think that you're funny. They don't think that you're good-looking. They just like, they want status, yeah.

• 40:59Fred Taylor?

  To that point.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  And you experienced this personally.

• 41:01Fred Taylor?

  How's that? Me, listen, I'm funny as shit and I'm beautiful.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Yes, you are.

• 41:05Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  You got it.

• 41:06Fred Taylor?

  I got my teeth done too. Shit.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Same, Invisalign?

• 41:09Fred Taylor?

  No, I got them. I got veneers. I got them to shave them bitches down and put new ones in.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Killing it.

• 41:14Ryan Clark?

  When you look at your life now, though, do you, do you feel like it's the same if you never take that moment in 2021?

• 41:25Speaker 03

  I'm sure something, a lot of things would be different. I would still be out, still be kind of living my best life. I do think that I wouldn't have had all the great moments and connections with people that I did over the last few years. Um, so, yeah, there's got to be a ton of things that would have been different, but I'm super thankful that I did it the way I did.

• 41:42Fred Taylor?

  And with that, what do you say to the, the next Carl? You know, like a young person that's just grinding it out, but somewhat unsure of who they are and sort of having those struggles? Like, how would you help them in their situation?

• 41:55Speaker 03

  I was a pro at ignoring the noise, you know what I mean? And if you can get really good at that and just focus on your craft, um, and keep it the main thing, the main thing, then you'll be very successful. One thing that will give you the most confidence in any situation is preparation, and you can always control your preparation. So when you're... Incredibly prepared, you're incredibly confident. And then when you're confident, you can really succeed. If you're worried about what could affect your career, then just make sure your career is bulletproof. That's the first way to do it, and that's kind of what I did. Like, my career was essentially bulletproof when I came out. And for people that their career might not be bulletproof, and you still want to take the leap, you know, just, you know, make sure you have a good community of people around you

• 42:40Speaker 03

  that will support you no matter what happens.

• 42:42Channing Crowder?

  I think we missed this part.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:44Channing Crowder?

  When did you know?

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Like, my whole life. Yeah.

• 42:47Channing Crowder?

  From what age, like? Because you don't even think, like, I don't think about girls. I didn't think about girls at three.

• 42:53Ryan Clark?

  This is a very...

• 42:54Speaker 03

  This is great. I mean, this is great.

• 42:55Ryan Clark?

  Very heterosexual questions.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  No, I just love it. I love it. I love it. Like, it's just, it's good. I, uh, I love it.

• 43:00Ryan Clark?

  You know what this is, Carl?

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Well, I'm like your guys' first gay friend.

• 43:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, no, no.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  I like, I just can't wait to get, like, three of my white buddies and ask my, you know, one of my black friends, "When did you know that you were black?" You know what I mean? Something like that, like, you just know, you know what I mean?

• 43:13Channing Crowder?

  About nine, Carl.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Like, when do you, when do you, when do you get... Seriously, when you get introduced

• 43:18Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  to the concept of race, when you get introduced to the concept of, like, "Oh, you're different."

• 43:23Ryan Clark?

  Yep.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like, at one point, you just, you're, you're existing the way that you were programmed to exist, and then you hear about, "Oh, you shouldn't be this way. This is how you have to be." You get, you know, parameters put on you that you didn't really, you weren't really born with. And so, you just kind of have to, like, fall into line of what you hear and what you think that people expect from you. You don't really think about it until someone tells you that it's, you're, you're different, you know?

• 43:46Channing Crowder?

  Her first name was Rachel. I remember I was at Rainbow Elementary in Atlanta, and I saw Rachel, and I was like, "That excites me." It was the first time, fifth grade, 10 years old.

• 43:57Ryan Clark?

  You talked like that, conversation private. Where you realized he liked girls.

• 44:00Channing Crowder?

  In 10th grade, I...

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. I was so confused. I had no idea what we were talking about. I was like, is this Rachel person a famous person?

• 44:06Channing Crowder?

  No, so you're talking about, like, like, I knew I was black probably about eight or nine. Like, I started knowing race about eight or nine. I knew it 10 years, 10 years old in the fifth grade that I looked at Rachel. Before that, I didn't care. I like, we were, everybody's just friends. And then Rachel, she started to develop, and I was like, "Hey, that's attractive."

• 44:26Speaker 03

  I love that for you.

• 44:27Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  I think that's actually a little unique that you like you have a memory of like the first time you were attracted to another human being.

• 44:33Channing Crowder?

  We were on the second floor.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:35Channing Crowder?

  Right up the stairs.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Killing it.

• 44:37Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, man, yeah.

• 44:38Ryan Clark?

  Rachel must have been like that.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  I can't pinpoint it like that. I don't have that.

• 44:42Channing Crowder?

  But you asked for the age, so that's what it's like when you say when it is like their whole life, but sexuality doesn't happen at three, four, five years old.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  No.

• 44:50Channing Crowder?

  And that was kind of like that. That's kind of where I was getting after where it was something a certain time or age where it was like, hey, I'm not looking at her. I started looking at him.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  I have no idea. Well, I've been asked the question of like, oh, when did you know? I was like, I was just kind of always known. You know what I mean? But never like who is the first person that you were attracted to? I don't know. No idea.

• 45:12Ryan Clark?

  The black thing kind of brings me to a connection at home. Actually, in 2020, I went to this, it was kind of a panel, right, about social justice.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 45:23Ryan Clark?

  We were talking about everything with George Floyd, and there was an LGBTQ advocate that was there. And I was much like this. I was very inquisitive and curious because I felt like if I could consistently speak up for black people and what they deserve and how we should be treated, then other causes should be important to me as well. And in asking those questions, she started to talk to me about the high murder rate in black trans that were in Louisiana. Having that conversation, and it made me say, okay, how do we now learn more about the LGBTQ community? We have so much further to go now, but I know especially when you were coming up.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:02Ryan Clark?

  There was a long way and a lot of understanding that needed to be had from the LGBT community to the rest of the world.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 46:11Ryan Clark?

  How difficult was it for you to assimilate or to?

• 46:17Ryan Clark?

  Keep part of your life hidden throughout your life.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  It was definitely difficult, but you become a great code switcher. You know what I mean? Everybody's a little bit of a chameleon.

• 46:25Ryan Clark?

  Everybody has to.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? You have like different shades of your personality depending on who you're with. You know, like when you're around football guys, you kind of talk a little bit differently. Then you're with, you know, executives and marketing people, right? Like you're a little more polished. And so you learn that as a young person. And I'm a very naturally masculine person, but for, you know, my gay friends who are more flamboyant and like maybe have a higher pitched voice, like they really had a tougher time to assimilate and to really dodge, you know, the insults, dodge kind of the snickering. But for most, you know, people in the gay community, it's tough. Like America is a very Christian society and, you know, people pull a few verses out and they like really use them against you. And it's way better now.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  Like you said, like it's, we've come such a long way. You know, but 30 years ago, like you lose your family, you get kicked out. You know, you get put on the street. It wasn't really like a choice to assimilate. It was you had to do it. And so for me, I just, I love sports. I was kind of always myself, you know, and I just didn't reveal like the whole part of it. You know what I mean? I was like 90%, right? I still feel like I'm the same person. I'm just dating the people I want to date now.

• 47:38Ryan Clark?

  How more difficult decision to tell your family or to tell the world?

• 47:43Speaker 03

  Well, the way I told my family is pretty hilarious and it involves this chain. So this is kind of like my coming out chain. I always wanted a gold Cuban link. Like I always wanted one. I love gold. I think like, I'm not, I'm not a flashy person, but I always wanted a really clean Cuban link chain. I was so neurotic about how I presented every day. I was like, I can't get out it. I can't let, like I have to be so on point day in, day out. And it bled into so many other aspects to where like I was so consumed with what other people thought about me. And I thought that if I got it, if I got the gold chain that I wanted, that people would say, oh, Carl's changed. Oh, like Carl can't pull that off. He looks like an idiot, like whatever.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  And so I didn't get one for years. I didn't get like, I wanted one so bad when I got drafted, didn't get one till, you know, my fourth year. One day I was in Tampa and I was leaving for the gym and it was at this point, I was like so neurotic that. I would wear a, you know, workout clothes to the gym. And I thought I looked too gay. So then I would go back in the house, change to some like baggier clothes. Then I went back out to my car, I was like, oh, this is too baggy. Then I went, I swear to God, and then I went back in my house. I changed four times. And then I like yelled out, I was like, dude, do what you want. And I got in my car, drove to the mall, great mall in Tampa. Got to the jeweler, tried on like three different chains. Put this chain on, bought it there.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  Um, and came out to my entire family that day. Like all my siblings, parents, best friends. Because this was like the first time that I did something that I really wanted to do. And I was wearing the chain and called everybody up. It was exhausting, you know, I've got four siblings, I called my best friends. It was like 10 phone calls later. It was all because just like one moment of, hey, wait, do what you want to do, be who you want to be. And it really was like a spark to coming out. But much less dramatic than the way I came out publicly. Yeah.

• 49:40Channing Crowder?

  Build up to it.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:41Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  Isn't that funny? You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a flashy person, but I do love, I love, I love a chain. Like, I love a nice, clean.

• 49:49Ryan Clark?

  I think it's funnier that you changed four times to go to the gym. Cause now I work out in a public gym, Carl, and there is nobody there.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  We gotta talk about.

• 49:57Ryan Clark?

  To impress.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  We gotta talk about public gyms, by the way.

• 49:59Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, like.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Post-retirement, it's the worst.

• 50:02Ryan Clark?

  He don't work out, he don't know.

• 50:04Speaker 03

  He don't work out?

• 50:05Channing Crowder?

  Why would I?

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Healthy, you gotta stay healthy, man. Health is the most important thing.

• 50:08Channing Crowder?

  Look, you see me?

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Okay, how's your blood pressure? Good, good, killing it.

• 50:12Channing Crowder?

  Blood pressure? I don't even go to the doctor, Carl. But.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  You should go to the doctor. Everybody should be healthy. Go work out. Yeah.

• 50:20Fred Taylor?

  Like, when you talk about the public gym, I was a public gym guy. I did spin class, I do the little stretching classes, the yoga. I was doing all of that. And it, the conversation does get a little heavy sometimes. You got people who want to come up, talk about your career and all that stuff. So what I ended up doing was, I took full advantage of the NFL Trust. They have the thing at the YMCA where it's free memberships.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 50:44Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, for your entire family, you or your entire family. They take care of all of that. So I got the free membership at the Y, so I don't hesitate to sneak into the Y. So it's not as like overbearing as like the public gym. Cause it's less people.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 51:00Ryan Clark?

  Why do you hate the public gym so much, though?

• 51:02Speaker 03

  The etiquette is atrocious. These people have no idea how to work out. And.

• 51:09Speaker 03

  They grunt with 25 bench presses and I'm gonna lose it. You know what I mean? I'm rep, this is yesterday and I was repping out 225 like it was nothing yesterday. Listening to like a sad Taylor Swift song. You know what I mean? And I got this nerd next to me benching 95 pounds slamming it back. And like I turned, I look at him like give him the death stare. It's terrible. The etiquette, you know what I mean? In normal people gyms needs to be studied. Okay, if we're gonna like change culture, it's gotta start there. It's so bad. Let me vent here really quickly.

• 51:42Channing Crowder?

  Are you a gym snob?

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Nah, I'm a gym rat. Like it's the swole factory for me. Like I'm in there to throw weight around. I get in and get out. I, you know, I don't, I'm not on my phone. Everyone's on their phones for way too long in the gym too. You know what I mean? And like I'm sure you guys love this, but like why are women in underwear? Like why are women in bras? You know what I mean? Like they're butt naked. Like you guys like, good for you guys. You know what I mean? But like, give me a break. Like what are we doing? And I just like, I'm in the gym yesterday and these like beautiful women walk by in bras. In the public, and they're just working out. So I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big feminist. Like the girls and the gays, we got it, we got it locked down. And so I don't really get it.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  But the gym etiquette is atrocious in America and we need to fix it.

• 52:31Ryan Clark?

  Carl, I'm be honest, man. Like you weren't gay until like just then.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  Oh yeah? A little bit of, you know, the code switching went in?

• 52:38Ryan Clark?

  You know, lead up a little bit out. He was like, I'm benching, I'm throwing around 225, listening to a sad Taylor Swift song.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. It was outrageous. The guy was slamming thing. I'm pissed. You know what I mean? You know when like somebody gets angry, like their like inner something comes out? You know what I mean? Like it's probably what happens, you know?

• 52:58Fred Taylor?

  I really wanna ask you, are you a fan of Taylor and Travis? Like that whole union?

• 53:04Speaker 03

  I'm a big fan of T-Swift. The Chiefs beat the crap out of us so many times. So I think Travis is a great player. He's one of the best tight ends of all time. And I, I hope that like they're the best. I mean, I don't really care about like public relationships, but I love that they're happy. That's awesome. They're like kind of the biggest power couple I've ever seen. Damn, like.

• 53:26Fred Taylor?

  Jay-Z, Beyonce?

• 53:27Speaker 03

  That's number one.

• 53:28Fred Taylor?

  My man.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Actually, I don't know.

• 53:31Ryan Clark?

  What?

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Jay-Z is the best rapper of all time, I think.

• 53:34Ryan Clark?

  Back to power couples. Are we gonna see Carl Nassib power couple come out and like have big nuptials and?

• 53:41Speaker 03

  I'm single, I don't know. I have no idea. I'm a very private person when it comes to that stuff, so I don't feel like I'll be one of those people that like invites a magazine to their wedding or some shit like that, yeah.

• 53:52Ryan Clark?

  People are gonna want to get the picture of your wedding.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  I'll be irrelevant by then, you know what I mean?

• 53:57Fred Taylor?

  He said it, even people, but like People Magazine and all these other...

• 54:02Ryan Clark?

  I'm talking about, yeah.

• 54:03Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 03

  No, they won't get a picture from me.

• 54:05Ryan Clark?

  The rest of your life, you're gonna be the first openly gay active football player.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:11Ryan Clark?

  That is never gonna change and we're, you know, they're gonna talk about race and they're gonna talk about being a walk-on, the conversation with Bill O'Brien. All those things are gonna happen, but at some point in the header, that's what it's going to read. And so when you get married, bro, it's gonna be a big thing. Or if you're ever just even caught walking down the New York streets, holding hands, it's gonna be a big deal. You're not gonna be able to outrun that.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  I don't think so. I mean, I've been in relationships where I walked down the street holding hands, nobody's ever stopped me. It's not that big of a deal and that's kinda like my thing is like, I hope in the future it's not a big deal and it is irrelevant. And I hope that there's a future where like people don't even feel like they have to get in the closet because people go into the closet because they're afraid. They're hiding part of themselves, right? And so I remember when I came out, I said, you know, I hope there's a world where you don't have to come out. And the reason you don't have to come out is because you never have to go in, right? So like kinda what I view as future is that we kinda just see each other for our shared humanity and not what makes us different. That would be really cool to see down the future, you know?

• 55:13Fred Taylor?

  Carl, we always ask our guests their biggest pivot in life. That's that one moment you can look back on and say, with this happening to me or for me, I wouldn't be who I am right now.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  I think the biggest thing for me was getting my scholarship, for sure. That was such a, I don't wanna sound like it's, that was such a pivotal moment for me, getting my scholarship, it was. If I didn't get that scholarship, I don't think I would've stayed at Penn State. I think I would've had to drop out. I think I would have to go on school, like at a community college and like finish my degree there. You know, luckily, I was able to prove that I was worthy of a scholarship and had a good career. So without a doubt, that was the best moment.

• 55:53Ryan Clark?

  Well, man, you know, we've been trying to get this done for almost a year.

• 55:55Speaker 03

  We really have, yes.

• 55:56Ryan Clark?

  I've really wanted to get this sit down and, you know, I think you have a perception of what someone could be and how they may be. And then you get to sit with them and there's so much more than that, man. I appreciate your openness, your candidness, your humor. And also, though, like the ability to show people that this is actually what a locker room looks like, you know, people who have commonalities, people who have differences, but those differences don't matter when you got good-hearted people sitting around chopping it up and how I have one goal.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  I miss this part of football where you like make fun of each other. You're just like, it's so honest, it's so nice, so lighthearted. And, you know, this was awesome. One of my best, you know, favorite interviews.

• 56:37Ryan Clark?

  Man, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Hey, my dog. You're the man, man. They can't shit. He's funny as hell. I'm like hot. Yeah.

• 56:46Ryan Clark?

  I appreciate you.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  You guys are awesome. You guys got great questions.

• 56:50Ryan Clark?

  We try, bro.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  We try to work. I get the worst questions ever. I get, what was it like playing with Tom Brady? Some nerds asking me dumb fucking questions. I'm like, he played with me.