Gugu Mbatha-Raw - ‘Have I ever worked with an awful co-star? Maybe one or two’

Friendship advice: ‘Are you a radiator or a drain?’ To hear more from Gugu tackling your failures join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Gugu Mbatha-Raw is an actor who firmly resists typecasting: her West End debut was as Ophelia in Hamlet; while on-screen she has tackled everything from Belle, to a victim of sexual assault in the hit drama The Morning Show. Her co-stars have included Jennifer Aniston, Matthew McConaughey, Kiefer Sutherland and Will Smith. Now, Mbatha-Raw returns to Apple TV+ with the second season of psychological thriller Surface. Although consistently a high-achiever, Gugu’s failures have shaped her in important ways - including one failure she shares in common with a former HTF guest, namely Mr Jamie Dornan… ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:20 The Empathy Discussion 04:51 Navigating Fame and Criticism 06:54 Running Point and Glorious 12:56 The Fear of Failure 15:01 Music and Personal Growth 19:33 Relationships and Self-Discovery 28:12 Self-Validation and Personal Growth 28:28 Understanding and Processing Trauma 29:57 Therapy and Taking Breaks 30:57 Finding Love with Dani 34:00 The Importance of Family Values 40:19 Parenting Challenges and Lessons 46:49 Navigating Infertility and Step-Parenting 50:24 Business Failures and Lessons Learned Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 2:03Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that believes that most failures can teach us something meaningful. Before we get on to the main episode today, I just wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast, Failing With Friends, where my special guest and I answer listener questions and offer our advice on your failures. This week, I am joined by the one and only Gugu Umbara-Raw.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Ultimately, do you still feel energised by it, or is it actually consistently getting you down?

• 2:34Elizabeth Day?

  Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes where you can send me an email, or look out for my monthly callouts on Instagram for quickfire questions.

• 2:46Elizabeth Day?

  Gugu Umbara-Raw is an actress who firmly resists typecasting. Growing up in Oxford, the daughter of a South African doctor and an English nurse, she started ballet at the age of four. But it wasn't until starring as Dorothy in a local drama production of The Wizard of Oz that she decided she wanted to be a performer. After graduating from RADA in 2004, she has taken on a fascinating range of roles. Her West End debut was as Ophelia in Hamlet, while onscreen, she's tackled everything from Belle, the biracial daughter of an admiral raised in 18th century England in Amma Asandi's movie of the same name, to Hannah, a victim of sexual assault in the hit Apple TV+ drama, The Morning

• 3:30Elizabeth Day?

  Show. Now, Gugu returns to Apple TV+ with the second season of psychological thriller, Surface, in which she reprises her role as Sophie Ellis, a woman piecing together her life after losing her memory in a traumatic incident. She's also, for the first time, an executive producer on the project. Alongside acting, she's a global goodwill ambassador for the UN. Influenced perhaps by her father's years as an ANC activist opposing apartheid in South Africa. Early on in her career, she came under pressure to change her name, but refused, as she puts it, because you don't give away your identity that easily.

• 4:13Elizabeth Day?

  I'm the first Gugu I know of in this industry, and it's a gift to be able to celebrate that originality.

• 4:22Elizabeth Day?

  Gugu Mbatha Ror, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. It was so wonderful hearing all of that.

• 4:28Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, it's so wonderful to have you in the studio. I don't normally say this, but looking a vision in crocus yellow.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Come on, spring.

• 4:37Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, you are willing it, you are manifesting it into existence. I wanted to end on that quote because I wanted to ask you about the meaning of your name, because I know it's got a very specific meaning.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yes, Gugu is short for Guguletu, which means our pride in Zulu.

• 4:54Elizabeth Day?

  And what better reason than that for sticking to your name?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Right, exactly, exactly. You've got to be proud of it. And it's funny, just looking at this mug, which says fail better on the back that you have here, it just reminds me of, my dad always said to me, great men try and fail, but they never fail to try. That was one of, and it just, when you were talking about my dad just then, it reminded me of that, that quote. So anyway.

• 5:19Elizabeth Day?

  How beautiful. What else did he teach you?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Well, that was when I failed my driver's test, a driver's licence test. You just reminded me of him. I mean, he taught me so much, I think resilience and I guess a global awareness. You know, growing up in Oxfordshire, I think him coming from South Africa and what he went through just gave me an awareness of the world outside of my town and outside of my experience quite early.

• 5:48Elizabeth Day?

  Did he talk much about his time in the ANC and as an activist against apartheid?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Not really. When I was a child, I didn't really understand it. I think he would talk about discrimination, but I think it wasn't really actually until I worked as a goodwill ambassador with UNHCR and refugees, that he started to talk more about his experiences, I think, because UNHCR had helped him. And I didn't even know that. That was, that was something he held very, very close, close to him. So, so yeah, I think it was, as, as my cousins would say, a kind of ancestral call, bringing, bringing me into that world for refugees, as he considered himself a political refugee himself.

• 6:33Elizabeth Day?

  And how had they helped him?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Well, it was to do with him getting a visa, I guess, or a sort of passport when he was finishing his medical training in Zambia, I think, long before I was born. But, you know, when he fled South Africa as a medical student. So he had to get all of his papers in order and to finish to become a doctor.

• 6:59Elizabeth Day?

  Um, sorry, I got off track.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:01Elizabeth Day?

  Because, because we are partly here to talk about surface, which I just told you, my husband and I have binged.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 7:06Elizabeth Day?

  And it's very rare that our TV interests coalesce. So thank you for that gift. And you play this fascinating character of Sophie Ellis, who, without giving too much away, if you haven't seen the first season, but you lose your long-term memory.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:21Elizabeth Day?

  What I find fascinating about the characters that you gravitate towards and that you choose, including Sophie, is that they are often women trapped in social constructs whose life is affected by unspoken power dynamics. And often those power dynamics are to do with gender.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:44Elizabeth Day?

  And I wonder if you've intentionally thought about that, or it's a coincidence, or whether that is something that really you gravitate towards.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's a great analysis. I, I, I think it's chicken and egg, really. Sometimes I think, you know, I look at some of the projects I've done, and a lot of them do explore identity. And certainly Sophie is grappling with her identity, not least this other persona of Tess that she believes people know her by. But, um, but I think those are really interesting areas to explore. I think since I did Belle, which was very much sort of the collision of, you know, identity, race, class and gender, and would talk with Amira Sante about those themes. Um, I think that they are really interesting subjects to explore in drama.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  And I think if you're a lead as a woman on screen, those themes can't help but intersect with the story somehow. Um, so yeah, I, I, I don't know if it's conscious or not, but I seem to magnetize those, those kind of stories.

• 8:51Elizabeth Day?

  And how do you feel playing those roles has impacted your own sense of self? And how do you think maybe that's also been helped by getting older?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I think you grow in confidence. And I think certainly on surface, I'm now an executive producer on the show, which has been an amazing thing that has come with experience and also getting the chance to work with Hello Sunshine, Reese Witherspoon's production company, and that that being the ethos of their company. I would say it's one of the most diverse crews that I've worked in. And so looking at that, you do feel a sense of getting older or just a sense of the industry changing beneath your feet, but also kind of a pride that you have also been part of that evolution.

• 9:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it feels like your choices are very intentional, not just in the roles that you take on, but the people that you work with. I'm very struck by how many female directors you've worked with, for instance. Are you always thinking about that?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I think initially it was female directors that just gave me the best roles, without sounding like...

• 9:59Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, give me that!

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I know, I know. You know, when I think about Belle with Amorante, when I think about Beyond the Lights with Gina Prince Bythewood, you know, working on Fast Color with Julia Hart, working with Ava DuVernay, I feel like that those stories, it was sort of a meeting of not just the story itself, but the point of view. And I think for me, you can have a great female role, but it can still be with the male gaze. What was really interesting with those directors that I was working with, certainly in my first leads in film, is that it very much felt like it was the female gaze, you know, and that the perspective of the story was coming through this woman's, you know, the

• 10:45Speaker 01

  way this woman was seeing the world and how the world was seeing her.

• 10:48Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your failures. Your first failure is your failure to be a ballet dancer.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 10:54Elizabeth Day?

  So when did you start learning how to dance?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I was probably always leaping around the living room. There's pictures of me as a child in a tutu, but I feel like I probably...

• 11:07Speaker 01

  First had ballet lessons when I was four, you know, and I was an only child. My mum took me to ballet initially, I think, because, well, she went to ballet as a little girl and, you know, and she was a nurse and, and I think she probably would have loved to have done something more creative. But, but also I just had so much energy. Being an only child, it was a way to kind of burn off my energy after school. And then I wanted to go to tap and then I wanted to go to jazz and then I wanted to join the musical theatre club. So, but, but I loved ballet so much, I think because of the discipline. I think that there was so much structure to it. You know, you started with the bar work and your plies and by the end of the class, you were leaping across

• 11:49Speaker 01

  the room in a sweat. And I took it really seriously. A certain stage around sort of between 11, I mean, I remember age 11, coming to London and being fitted for my first pair of pointe shoes in Covent Garden, you know, that was, it was so magical. But I, I took about five ballet classes a week, you know, between 11 and 15. You do all your grades, grades one to sort of seven or eight, then you do pre elementary and then you do your elementary. And that elementary, even though it sounds like so, such a beginners, it's, it's, it's actually sort of the semi-professional. If you pass your elementary, you can get into the Royal Ballet and you can go to ballet school. And

• 12:28Speaker 01

  all the other grades, you'd get sort of, you know, a whole pass merit, you know, distinction. There was a, you know, but the elementary was just pass or fail. And, and I'd always got distinction from all my other ballet grades. And I did my elementary and I failed. And I was 15 and I was such a high achiever at school. I was, you know, a student just doing, you know, school in my spare time and, you know, dance and drama after school. And, and it was the first time that I'd really failed at anything. And I guess aware that that's a real privileged position to be in. But, but for me, it sort of was a

• 13:12Speaker 01

  huge moment of reassessing, oh, right, like, it's not just going to be one smooth trajectory to the Royal Ballet, you know, actually, that was tough. And, oh, wow, like, I'm, I'm not going to be a ballet dancer. I have to actually think about what I love about dancing and. Can I do something else that's close to it? And then I was like, oh, well, I like being on stage still and and and I like musicals. And there's dancing in musicals. You just have to sing and do a bit of acting as well. So, you know, and it sort of opened me up to to that. And and then I became a huge musical theatre nerd and thought I wanted to do that for another three years. And then but then that brought me to acting.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  And I think at the time then I was doing my A levels and was doing art and English literature and just got introduced to Shakespeare. And so it sort of led me to an awareness of plays and literature and acting and sort of finding my voice as opposed to just expressing myself physically. So in a way, I'm really thankful to that first failure because if I was a ballet dancer, I'd be retired by now, long retired, wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

• 14:26Elizabeth Day?

  So interesting for a number of reasons. I'm a big believer that any rejection is redirection.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:33Elizabeth Day?

  And I think you've expressed that so beautifully with that anecdote. That first experience of something not going according to plan when you've put in so much work is heartbreaking.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:46Elizabeth Day?

  And do you still, can you still access that feeling that you had?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I think stories that we're sort of told this sort of, you know, this narrative of beginning, middle, end, and it's all going to go in a certain trajectory. But yeah, I absolutely kind of think I'm still quite a physical performer. I think things have got more and more distilled. And I think, you know, from theatre to being on screen, stillness is valued more in a way, but you can still have all of that stuff fizzling underneath. But still now, I'll, yeah, I'll do things and I'll sit in a certain way or I'll, you know, even doing a fight scene or something and a stunt coordinator will be like. Did you used to do dancing because you know, you just pointed your toe and we really want you to actually kick some ass, not like point, you point your toe, you know, the muscle memory is, is, is deep, you know, or how you sit in a chair and move.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  How you carry yourself. I think it really, it's still within me somewhere.

• 15:39Elizabeth Day?

  It's in you. I, when I was doing research for this interview, I watched a video of you being interviewed on Facebook and I don't always look at comments, particularly not on social media, but for some reason I did on this one. And the first comment was from someone who went to school with you.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 15:53Elizabeth Day?

  And said the loveliest things about you.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 15:55Elizabeth Day?

  And said you were so, you were always so lovely and kind at school and it's so wonderful to see you succeed. What were you like? How do you recall school?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  I mean, this is probably not popular, but I loved school.

• 16:07Elizabeth Day?

  Did you?

• 16:10Elizabeth Day?

  School loved you.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Nobody ever says that stuff, but I loved school. I think I, I was an only child, like I, and I was sort of vivacious and enthusiastic and at school I got to be around my friends, like, and I got to be around people. And I think, um, I just found it fascinating and fun. And I think I, I was quite a hard worker and I wasn't popular at school. I wasn't, and I wasn't sort of nerdy or bullied or excluded. I was one of those really in between people. I ended up being head girl at my school. And I, I went to my local comprehensive, you know, so that, that meant, you know, you were sort of voted for by your, the teachers and your, the sixth form at your school.

• 17:03Elizabeth Day?

  We've spoken about your father and I'm just aware that I'd really like to speak about your mother, just to give her equal billing.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:09Elizabeth Day?

  And I get a strong sense of her already from someone who took you to ballet classes and that was important. What, what's she like?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my mum. She is wonderful. She's one of the best friends in life that I have. And she is hardworking. She was a, she was a nurse when I was growing up, working really hard and creative and artistic. And I think she would have probably loved to have had more of a creative life than she did in some ways. That wasn't really accessible to her. And she's always supported me, but she's never pushed me. I think, you know, I always, she would often worry that I was taking on too much. So she's always really given me confidence.

• 17:52Elizabeth Day?

  And your parents split up when you were very, very young.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:55Elizabeth Day?

  So would it be fair to describe her as a single mother or was your father?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yes, no, a hundred percent. I grew up pretty much with my mum and I saw my dad regularly. But they, I don't really remember them together. I think there is that quite intense only child, single mum, mother, daughter vibe, which is that you, certainly as you get a bit older, you sort of become a team. And I realise now as I get older that it's quite intense. Like, I think it's maybe more intense than some other dynamics that you might have if you've got siblings or if there's a dad in the house on a daily basis.

• 18:33Elizabeth Day?

  What an amazing woman.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:34Elizabeth Day?

  And I, I just, I can't even imagine how proud your parents must be. I mean, to see you thrive in the way that you are.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, they are really still supportive and I think they keep me grounded as well. You know, there's certain things you go home and, you know, certain things that don't change and they treat me exactly the same.

• 18:54Elizabeth Day?

  So before we get on to your second failure, you are redirected into acting and you end up at RADA.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 19:01Elizabeth Day?

  What was RADA like?

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I was seventeen when I auditioned and I got in.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  When I was eighteen and I'd never left home before. So a lot of people that were there were maybe twenty one, had been to university and I came straight from my A levels. In fact, I came straight from Japan because I was doing National Youth Music Theatre in Japan. Oh my goodness. When I got the call from my mum on the landline from the hostel that we were staying at in Japan with the youth theatre company to say that I'd got in and I only had sort of two weeks after I got back from this Japan tour to sort of move to London and I'd nowhere to live. I ended up living in a hostel that was run by nuns in Maribor. Like it was so sort of, I realise now probably I was, I was young to go, to go there, but I, I was quite determined.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  And, you know, and I just sort of figured it out. And I think so many people at RADA had much more life experience than I did. For RADA, you kind of, it was like a twelve hour day, like nearly every day, you know, and, and, and I think for me, coming straight from school, that wasn't as hard to get into because I'd already been doing so many extracurricular things. So yeah, I mean, I, I loved RADA. It was very much a theatre training, you know, it, it, there wasn't, certainly when I was there, there was a sort of TV term course in the second year, but it was very much like you were just recording a scene

• 20:33Speaker 01

  with a friend. Considering how much film and television I've actually done in my career, that, the technique of all of that I learnt on the job. I mean, I remember the first or third round audition, I remember the sort of deputy head of RADA at the time, he's not there anymore, said, don't smile so much. You shouldn't smile so much. And I remember that really was sort of, and I hadn't even got in yet, but that was a really weird thing to say. And I thought, oh, that's, I didn't know I was smiling and is that wrong and what does that mean? But I, I, and perhaps a rather blunt thing to say to an eighteen year old, but I think I was just so enthusiastic. And I think. Perhaps what he was really trying to get at was that kind of putting, keeping

• 21:18Speaker 01

  the lid on the bubbling pot thing of, you know, and again, very English kind of restraint, withholding something or having that, that secret underneath is, is more mysterious, perhaps, and more, more interesting as a performer than just being so thrilled to be there and, and giving everything away.

• 21:40Elizabeth Day?

  That's fascinating, but I'm still hung up on the hostel run by nuns.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. What, what do you want to know?

• 21:50Elizabeth Day?

  How long were you there for? What was it like?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I got, I got there, I got to RADA and as I say, I had two weeks before it started, term started. I had nowhere to live in London and they don't have, unlike university, there's no halls of residence. You're just in London figuring it out.

• 22:04Elizabeth Day?

  And it's super expensive.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Super expensive. And there was the bursar, Pat Myers, who was a legend. You know, she, I got a scholarship to go there as well. And, you know, so we were going through, okay, I've got a scholarship, but now I need somewhere to live. And she was going through the list of sort of dig, the digs list or whatever. And then she's like, well, wait a minute, I, you're, you're Catholic, aren't you? And I was like, well, I, yes, I mean, kind of. I, I went to, you know, Catholic primary school. And she's like, well, if you're Catholic, there is, there is a hostel in Marylebone and there is another girl in your year called Amy, who also needs somewhere to live just for the first term or the first few weeks. You could be roommates there. And if you become friendly, you can then get, get a house together or whatever. So, so yeah, it was in Marylebone, in quite a

• 22:50Speaker 01

  bougie area, I now realise, but it was, it was run by nuns. I mean, the problem was there was a, there was a curfew. And it was so early. It was something like you had to be back at like 11. And I was 18, just moved to London. I mean, every weekend I was kipping on somebody's sofa because I didn't get home in time. My friend Amy one time had to break me in to the hostel.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Getting back too late. I mean, it was kind of, kind of, it sounds so, I guess naive and sort of idyllic now. We would walk along New Cavendish Street from Marylebone to Rada every day. It was always a temporary measure. And I think it was just until I sort of found my feet in London as a teenager. And I mean, I'm still really good friends with Amy to this day. We shared a room and everything. And, and by Christmas, I'd figured it out and I joined a flat share in North London with some third years. And then I was away, I was, you know, living in a different apartment every six months, pretty much. But, but it was an amazing start, I think, to, to being in central London. Because as I say, I could walk everywhere. And apart from not being able to, to, to come home like crazy late

• 24:01Speaker 01

  at night, it was sort of, it was sort of an enchanted time, really.

• 24:04Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Failure to be a nun is not one of your failures. However, the next failure is your failure to be a painter.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 24:13Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me why you picked this one.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  It's because alongside the love of acting and dancing, I really was obsessed with art growing up. And I think I sort of was at school and did my GCSEs along the time of the young British artists, Tracey Emin and, you know, Damien Hirst and Jenny Saville, who, who really caught my eye, who was just painted these figures that were so fleshy and, you know, like Lucy and Freud, kind of meaty, human flesh and bodies. And, and I just found that such a compelling way to express yourself through painting. I just

• 24:54Speaker 01

  thought it was real and it wasn't trying to be beautiful. And I, again, I tried, I tried to get into goldsmiths, actually, to do drama because of them, because of the young British artists and because of that whole scene. And I thought, and they rejected me. But I, I also just, I loved painting because it's sort of, and I didn't really realise it at the time, but I, it gave me a headspace to. To go into where I would really sort of lose track of time, I guess I now sort of know that as the flow state or, you know, essentially a very focused but challenging but flowy

• 25:34Speaker 01

  state of mind. And but I knew I I knew I could be very solitary when I was painting and and drawing and I didn't need anybody and and somehow acting felt like it would bring me out of myself a bit more. So I sort of, even though I I knew I was sort of talented at art, I sort of let it go and I sort of pursued acting. And so it wasn't really until the pandemic where I kind of, I couldn't act anymore. I was in the middle of filming Loki, first season of Loki in Atlanta, and we were on hiatus for five months in the end. And I was digging out an old cupboard and I found a set of paints and a, you know,

• 26:19Speaker 01

  that had had been neglected and I and I just started painting and it was, it felt like it was my creative expression in that time of having all of this creative energy that that couldn't go anywhere with the acting. And so I sort of sprung a leak back into painting and it had been years since I'd done it. And and I really had this very focused several months of doing portraits of my friends and doing portraits of, you know, figures in in in culture and in the news and and things that were really just inspiring me at that time. And it just, it just reminded me of that focus that I had and and just what a sort of therapeutic experience it was to paint.

• 27:01Elizabeth Day?

  You mentioned there that you started off painting pictures from, I think it was your phone library for family and friends.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:08Elizabeth Day?

  And then your attention was drawn to the news.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:12Elizabeth Day?

  And specifically Black Lives Matter.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 27:14Elizabeth Day?

  And the horrendous and tragic murder of George Floyd. And you painted a portrait of him.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 27:21Elizabeth Day?

  And then of other people, Breonna Taylor.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:23Elizabeth Day?

  And what was it about them that made it important for you to paint their faces?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, I was painting every day at that point, you know, and I I was in the rhythm of sitting down and painting. And as you said, you know, from my my camera roll of friends that I wanted to see but couldn't see because we were, you know, all so isolated at the time. And then I think in that time, it was such a A crazy time, but such a focused time as well. And I felt like seeing that murder that happened and, you know, all the imagery around it, the most natural way for me to process it was to paint it. It just felt like that was a way also of slowing down everything that was seemingly happening in the world and just this veil that had been

• 28:13Speaker 01

  pulled across or away from the idea of America and the idea of the world we're living in and actually just the cracks beneath all of that were being revealed. And so for me, it was it was sort of a way to process that and also just slow time down and sort of metabolize those ideas whilst we couldn't leave our homes. We couldn't really walk along the street and people would cross the street to avoid you if you were just taking your daily walk. I mean, it was such a bizarre time. But it was also an opportunity, I think, for me to sort of raise awareness for that for that issue. You know, I auctioned some

• 28:58Speaker 01

  of the paintings for those charities and it just felt like a way to be active, creatively active in a time when we were, you know, so separate from each other.

• 29:09Elizabeth Day?

  I think you put that so beautifully. And I wonder if part of it also is when someone finds themselves at the centre of a news story and then a global movement, you can sometimes forget their individuality almost. They become a political moment rather than a human person. And I think that your portraits, from what I've seen of them online, really did such a profound job of giving them back their individuality.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think there is something about portraiture, it's kind of weird and unnatural, the intensity of which you will look at somebody when you're going to paint them. You would never look at somebody that intensely or for that long in real life.

• 29:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Staring at an image, staring at somebody's face for sort of four hours. You would never do that. It's too weird. It's too intense. But to be able to do that, it's intimate. It's like a connection with that person. You see the details, the grooves in their eyes and their forehead and the light, how the light catches in their irises and all of those kind of details. In a way, like acting, it's, you know, you are still kind of painting a portrait of somebody. Just you're using, you're not using a brush. It's not going onto paper or a canvas. You are using yourself. It's a portrait of a character that you're creating. So I sort of see the link of that, you know, the, the psychology of somebody and, and what makes them tick

• 30:39Speaker 01

  and, and how their face can tell a story. I think they're sort of connected in a way.

• 30:44Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever painted a self-portrait?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Not for ages. I used to do that a lot when I was, when I was doing my art A level. I had a massive self-portrait that I did of myself kind of in, in a box, like trying to push out of this box. I think, and it was such a big, a big portrait. And I was like naked in this or nude in this box. And, and yeah, it was so big, I didn't even take it home because it wouldn't have fitted in, in our house. So I think it still belongs, it's still at the school. Or I don't know if they recycled it or I just left it in the art block in the end.

• 31:21Elizabeth Day?

  Isn't it interesting that I started your introduction saying that you defy categorization as an actor? And there's this clearly this recurring theme, this part of you, which is like, don't box me in.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yes. Oh, my God. I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't thought of that. And I was doing that when I was 17.

• 31:39Elizabeth Day?

  Wow. Did you feel boxed in? I mean, I know I'm taking this super literally and it was like your art A level.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  No, no, but I think it did come from some, you know, we were studying the expressionists at the time. And I think, you know, it was coming from an expression of emotion. And I think I probably felt like I was ready to leave my hometown. You know, I mean, I was ready to leave my hometown when I was 12. I did ask my mom if I could go to drama school when I was 12.

• 32:02Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever felt boxed in, in your professional life, in this industry? Which I imagine it takes quite a long time to change. I mean, we spoke at the beginning about how you feel the change is now coming and it's positive. But I imagine there must have been times along the way where you did feel you were being offered certain parts? Or did you feel boxed in in that way?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I mean, never boxed in, but I think probably frustrated at the pace of change at times. I think that when I did Belle, I was sort of, it was such a life-changing role for me and such a life-changing lead role moment. And I did Beyond the Lights after that, which actually didn't come out in the UK, but was out in the US. And then I was sort of like, okay, where's my next lead role? And, and it didn't materialize just like that. You know, I think the next couple of things I did, I sort of played the wife of two big movie stars, you know, like Matthew McConaughey in Free State of Jones and Will Smith in Concussion. And as much as that, those were great jobs and

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I learnt a lot from working with, you know, actors and movie stars of their calibre. The roles themselves weren't as meaty as I, I had hoped, you know, after, after Belle and, and Beyond the Lights. I, I had hoped that, you know, well, then they'll be more of the same, you know, just, and, you know, similarly to passing that ballet exam, you know, just, you just sort of expect that that's the next, the next step. And, and that sort of felt like, um, not a sideways step because, you know, those were big movies in their own way. But I think certainly I made a promise after those films that I wasn't going to play any more wife roles in that way. And, and, you know, and both

• 33:49Speaker 01

  movies had interesting conversations around them, you know, and, you know, reconstruction in, in, in the time of slavery and, and, you know, basically brain damage in the NFL. And, you know, so there was, there was stuff to talk around the, the projects. But I think I was very, um, very much looking for the next meaty role. And that, and that didn't, that didn't come as easily.

• 34:18Elizabeth Day?

  No, and it's a, it's a, it's a brave decision to make in many ways because it opens you up to not getting those roles. You have to have a certain level of self-possession to be able to do that and to navigate the course of your career. And so that's very impressive.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks. Well, I, I think I just also have this awareness that You know, we don't have endless amounts of time. And I think when you commit to a film or a TV project, sometimes you're getting up at four thirty in the morning or earlier. You know, you're, you're living away from home and, and you're committing hours and hours of your life to tell a story. And so I, you want that to be, to be worth it at the end of the day.

• 35:01Elizabeth Day?

  You've worked, as you mentioned there, with some amazing co-stars, Will Smith, Matthew McConaughey, but also Jennifer Aniston, Kiefer Sutherland. You don't have to name names. Have you ever worked with a terrible co-star? Like who, who were like, no, I just can't carry on doing this job?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I can't, I can't name names.

• 35:20Elizabeth Day?

  No, no, no.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  But I've, I've, I've met a couple, I've worked with maybe one or two people who I've, I've seen behaviour, you know, just behaviour where, and you can see how it happens where people get surrounded by other people that nobody ever says no to them, that they are given a sense of sort of grandiosity and, and then, you know, they'll be tired or ready for lunch and suddenly somebody will snap and it'll be in, you know, in front of a child actor or something. And you're thinking, that, that, how can that level of awareness, how can you not realise that that child is absorbing everything you're doing and idolises you and you have just, you know, had a tantrum in front of them? There's only been a few

• 36:06Speaker 01

  moments like that, but I, I'm always very aware, certainly as an actor and as a leading actor, now that I am a leading actor, you know, on a TV show, you know, everybody's looking to you to set the tone. And I think, and it's, it's in a subconscious way, you know, you set, you set the pace, you set the energy, you set what's acceptable on set, you, you know, you set all of that. And, and, and if you allow, you know, a certain kind of energy or a certain kind of behaviour, it's sort of, it trickles down from the top in that way. And I've seen it happen.

• 36:43Elizabeth Day?

  Very interesting. Cause as someone who's never been on a set, it's, it's so interesting to understand that the magnitude of that, of that lack of self-awareness. And I know exactly what you're describing, because I've sort of been in that, not me personally, obviously, but I've been adjacent to that sort of bubble of entitlement. And

• 37:03Elizabeth Day?

  It's a very specific flavour.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:06Elizabeth Day?

  And you seem to me to stand in total opposition to all of that. And so I imagine it's a great set. Surface must be a great set to be on.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  I hope so. I hope so. I mean, it was challenging because we had a five month.

• 37:17Elizabeth Day?

  Oliver Jackson-Covering, was he a nightmare?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  A nightmare.

• 37:20Elizabeth Day?

  Absolute nightmare, yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Nightmare. But, you know, it was tough, you know, because we did have a long hiatus with the actor's strike, the SAG strike and the writer's strike, right in the middle of filming for five months. To be able to feel like team leader to kind of pick the momentum up again and say, okay, guys, we're going to finish this. You know, we're still here. And, and, you know, knowing at a time in the industry where, you know, after COVID and then the strikes, you know, a lot of people were losing their jobs and just leaving the industry because they couldn't be without a job for a month, not able to pay the rent, not able to kind of, you know, exist when, when a lot of shows shut down, not knowing when they were coming back.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  So I do feel a response of, a sense of responsibility in that way, not just to the other actors, but also to the crew.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions, but a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights.

• 38:27Elizabeth Day?

  Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen, available now on The Binge.

• 38:46Speaker 04

  Two Girls, One Ghost. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. Where each week we dive into all things strange, spooky and supernatural and share stories of paranormal encounters from our community of listeners. Satisfy that spooky itch and entertain your inner witch with Two Girls, One Ghost. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts and check us out on YouTube at Two Girls, One Ghost. But be warned, side effects might include a haunting or two. Listen at your own risk.

• 39:16Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure is such a brilliant one and I hate to name drop again, but I'm going to. Jamie Dornan had the same one.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 39:23Elizabeth Day?

  When he came on How to Fail. Yes, he's the only other person.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:28Elizabeth Day?

  Don't worry, it's a good, it's a good group to be in. It's your failure to stay still. But I wonder if you mean it in a different way. What do you mean when you say failure to stay still?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  I think that I am very busy and I think that I am very curious and I think that sometimes I wish I could slow time down a little bit and, you know, and I, I, I've meditated and I've done yoga and written in a journal and, you know, I've done all these things that helped me kind of slow time down a bit, but I also realise that I am maybe just a little bit more sort of antsy and restless than a lot of people. Not a lot of people in our industry, but, but

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I feel like I, I sometimes think, how on earth did I get through school? Because I can't really even barely sit in a chair now with, without, you know, for a day or, you know, if I have to sit on Zoom or, or, or sit in front of a laptop, I, I don't know how to do it. I'm so, um, as I say, not restless in, um, in a sort of a flippant, irritable way, but I mean, I guess I'm just curious about the world and I feel like I've still got so much to do.

• 40:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I know exactly what you mean and that's different from Jamie Dornan. So you're still unique.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  How was his?

• 40:54Elizabeth Day?

  His was literally just, I jiggle my leg loads. And it drives my wife mad. Okay.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  That's the kind of nervous energy that's not going somewhere. Yes.

• 41:03Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, but I completely relate to what you're saying and to me it sounds like, I mean, I don't know if this resonates, but this is, I think where I come to with my own drive, I suppose it is, is.

• 41:15Elizabeth Day?

  A sort of relentless curiosity combined with an awareness that life is finite.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yes, and it can be great, but it can also be a problem. I think it can force you to kind of overachieve and not appreciate the time, you know, or not, you know, and so I'm very aware of it, but I also feel like there is, it's also, I feel like the work sometimes is a place to sort of channel my rage as well. You know, I put it all in there. I put all the, all of the energy that I have goes into the work that I do because I feel, you know, there's certain things in the world that I can't control, but I feel like, you know, the stories that I tell and, and how I spend my energy is, is down to me and the

• 42:01Speaker 01

  energy I bring into a space. And so, so yeah, I, I don't know if it's a failure exactly, but it's sort of, it's, it's one of those things that I'm sort of curious about myself about like, why am I like that?

• 42:13Elizabeth Day?

  But does it give you time to pursue relationships, other relationships in your like friendships or?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I work really hard at that. I think, you know, I'm very aware, having lived in LA for nearly 10 years, you know, between 2010 and 2020, pretty much, you know, I became very aware and sort of going into these projects where sometimes you're in New Orleans for six months doing a TV show and then you're, you know, in Albuquerque, then you're in Bristol, then you're in Jamaica, or, you know, wherever, wherever you are, that if you don't make the effort with your friendships, they will fall away. And, and so I, I've been very committed to, to making the time for my friends and my family when, when I'm around and, you know, trying to kind of stay, stay in touch, not just stay

• 43:04Speaker 01

  in touch, like in terms of. Being together, but just be in each other's lives, you know, and really, and it's, it's a challenge sometimes because I think it's, you know, the make believe world can be intoxicating. And then the other side of, of the industry, you know, when you've made the project, the publicity and the red carpet and the fashion and, and, you know, all of that side of things is, is almost like another job as well and, and sort of takes you away from reality sometimes.

• 43:36Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. What I appreciate about your three failures is that they are so positive ultimately. The outcome is so positive. Your failure to be a ballet dancer has made you the actor you are, which we're all so grateful for. Your failure to be painter isn't really a failure because you are a painter. I mean, you have been painting.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:53Elizabeth Day?

  And your failure to stay still is the, is the thing that keeps you questing.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:58Elizabeth Day?

  So basically, in summary, you're a perfect human.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Not true, not true. Oh, well, I, again, and it, I think it's all about how you look at these things, isn't it? It's all about how you frame them. And I think things that maybe felt like a failure in the moment, um, you know, I love what you say about redirecting you because I think that is something I've really learnt in life. Not to say that there isn't ever such a thing as a failure, but I think some things, I truly believe some things are meant for you and some things are not meant for you. And I think you have to kind of cultivate that as an actor because there's just so much rejection. You're like, oh, right, it wasn't meant for me. The stars weren't aligning and, you know, um, so I don't know if it's just self preservation to have that relentless positivity, but I,

• 44:46Speaker 01

  I feel like, you know, and I've had some crushing disappointments and, you know, you don't get to this point in life without going through sad and challenging and weird things. But, um, but I choose to, to sort of.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Try and learn from them and try and, and try and see what they were there to teach me.

• 45:09Elizabeth Day?

  Beautiful. And you're dispensing more advice like that on failing with friends.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:13Elizabeth Day?

  Because you're going to stick around and answer listener questions. But for now, I can't thank you enough for coming on How to Fail. Thank you so much.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 45:21Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.