Tatum Suffers a Devastating Injury, and Dallas Wins a Wild NBA Lottery With J. Kyle Mann and Joe House

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by J. Kyle Mann and Joe House to react to the Celtics losing Game 4 against the Knicks after Jayson Tatum went down with an injury (1:44). Then, they discuss the NBA draft lottery and the Mavericks landing pick no. 1 (13:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: J. Kyle Mann and Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends, America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip, then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMER or visit rg-help.com.

• 0:43Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, this went from, it was supposed to be a really fun podcast to not a fun podcast at all, but we're going to try to go through it next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th.

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Dewey Watch, I'll be coming for you on Tuesday night. We did Death Wish at his big ass 70's month. I am going to be on Zach Lowe's podcast on Tuesday late morning because he has Tales from the Lottery. Hopefully we'll find out what happened to Jason Tatum because he got hurt at the end of game four today and it did not seem good. And we're about to talk about that as well as one of the craziest lotteries in the history of the week with Joe House and Jay Cowan. That is all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 2:34Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're live. I really wanted to cancel this. Tonight was not a good night for Celtic fans. Holy shit. Uh, really tough loss in MSG. I don't know how long. Jerk, Jay Kyle Man is here. Joe House is here. We're gonna talk about the lottery later. We're gonna play off the next Celtics game as well. Not gonna speculate too much on the Tatum thing, but it did not look good. It, worst case scenario is an Achilles. Best case scenario is like torn ligaments in his ankle or some sort of bad ankle injury, but either way, like, done for the series and God only knows for how long. What was your reaction when you saw Kyle? Did you think Achilles right away?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  I mean, just, I've had a lot of sports injuries, but I'm not gonna pretend to know these kind of things. But the fact that we were arguing about, you know, ankle or not, I mean, the fact that he was neutral and there was the plant and then the reverse angle where you see the pressure and then you just kind of see him, his ankle just kind of wobble, like the stability gave out, which made me worry. And, but you and I were saying that, you know, the pain part of it was the interesting reaction because to me, I've never torn that, God, you know, God willing, I don't go, go there, but uh, he, his reaction to it was what made me think, because every basketball player fears that, right? I mean, it's, it's increasingly getting more, you know, doable and navigable, but with surgery and everything.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  But I think his reaction was, he knew, that's kind of my speculation. It was, he, he knew what it was and it was just that like, holy shit, why me? Kind of a thing. Less than a writhing in pain type thing.

• 4:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, House, usually with the Achilles, the guy almost doesn't seem like they knew it happened. And they grab like for something behind their thing. So I was, I was studying it like, well, he's grabbing the side of his ankle. Maybe it's not, but. It doesn't look great. And the irony of it was that was one of the best games of his career up to that point. I mean, he's single-handedly kept the Celtics in that game for three-plus quarters and was outrageously good.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  That's the bummer. We were being treated finally in this game four to the mono-y mono that we basketball fans deserve. We were waiting for a Brunson game and then, you know, Tatum was there to match him blow for blow, shot for shot. And, you know, that fourth quarter was, was, was getting very exciting down that stretch there. And that's it. It's over. The season's over for the Celtics and who knows what happens over the summer and next season.

• 5:00Bill Simmons?

  It looked like the Knicks were about to pull away when that play happened. And the irony, normal pass to Jaylen Brown, who just, you know, just didn't have it the whole night. He was fouls, turnovers, and for some reason, the pass just to flex off him goes back to Tatum. Tatum jumps for it, has the injury. But the Knicks, you know, it was really just Tatum and White tonight for the Celtics. Even before that injury, nobody else really showed up. The Porzingis minutes were horrible. The two older guys, Horford and Drew Holiday, brought nothing to the table. Pritchard didn't really give them the boost off the bench. And then conversely, Brunson was awesome. Bridges made some big, big, big little eight, 10 footers. OG made a couple threes. Towns had some big minutes, even though he was getting

• 5:45Bill Simmons?

  torched on defense. Robinson had a couple rebounds. The Knicks just, God, they just looked like a better all-around team up until the injury.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Porzingis thing was really glaring. I mean, in every facet, he was slow to the ball on the glass. But I know what I noticed was, you know, on the season, it was a lot of Mikail Bridges, his strengths, his things that he's already pretty good at were just being, you know, exacerbated, I think amplified in this situation where he's really good at those dribble pull-up twos. And this is something that goes back to his Phoenix days that I remember in particular, CP3, and he would kill Porzingis with that, that left to right, where they would sort of go through the middle, snake through the middle of that pick and roll and get to that dribble pull-up shot. I mean, he was just killing Porzingis with that because Porzingis wasn't moving laterally really well. Horford wasn't either, but yeah, 48.1% on the season, I looked it up, dribble pull-up too. So that's his strength. And man, he killed him with it.

• 6:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was worried. I was really worried about this game for a bunch of different reasons, but the one day rest for the older guys on the Celtics versus like having the home game and then having to do it again on Wednesday night. House, when you're before the injury, you're watching it.

• 6:56Bill Simmons?

  And I was saying to you, I was worried about this game because the Knicks hadn't played a good game in this series yet. And what were the odds? They were just going to go through two weeks and not have a good game. I thought they were pretty good tonight.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  But they were good, but you know, the key, and I'm not here to, you know, rub it in anybody's face. If Porzingis isn't effective than the Celtics, it makes it super duper hard for them to compete. They just don't have enough dudes. The Hauser injury turns out to be really impactful. And if Porzingis is this version of Porzingis, then it's tough because the Knicks do have six dudes. They have six. That's exactly the number. They don't have more. Maybe even just call it five and a half, but they are dudes. They're all dudes. And look, here's the crazy thing to me. I'm looking at the numbers here. How did the Knicks get up 13 more shots? They had 13 more attempts from the field. I know. That's right. They beat them by 12 on the boards. That's the answer. It's crazy

• 7:50Speaker 02

  because the turnovers were pretty even and the Celtics were getting to the free throw line. That wasn't an issue and they both shot, you know, good from three, 38% for the Celtics, 35% for the Knicks. Those are good, good numbers, but 13 more attempts because the Knicks own the boards. And this is the second consecutive game where that happened. And, you know, it just goes, it's very basic. It goes, comes back to like, you know, your dudes, who are your dudes? Who's going to go get a rebound when you need it?

• 8:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there was one point I looked at Tatum and Wade were a combined 13 for 25 from three. And then the Celtics were still like down by a point. I'm like, that's not a good sign. If you had told me. That that was gonna be the number with six minutes, seven minutes left in the fourth quarter, that those two guys are gonna have that and they would still be losing. So Jalen roller coaster game. Before Tatum got hurt, I just thought he was so good on both sides. I mean, he had, he had five steals, two blocks. He was all over the place, just over and over again, attacking towns, attacking towns, attacking towns. And, uh, and really kept them in it. And the irony would happen late was that it felt like this was going to be, you know, potentially another version of the Jason Tatum game.

• 9:03Bill Simmons?

  He's had a couple of those, like he had the game in Milwaukee, he had the game in Philly, but this was, I thought the best all around game I had seen him play. Couple dumb threes here and there, but for the most part, uh, was, was awesome. Did the Knicks seem like a finals team to you, Kyle?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  I mean, based on what's on the board, yeah.

• 9:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I guess, I guess if Tatum's gonna be down.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I thought, I just thought as for as brilliantly as Tatum played though, you know, he was living a tough life. I mean, you know, nine isolations on the game and a lot of it was working. If you, they talked a lot about on the broadcast that, you know, Carl is really vulnerable in drop. He's really vulnerable side to side, but he is decent at kind of staying down. And like, he's long enough to contest. They were talking about how he bothered Durant. Tatum just kept working hard and he wasn't really getting by him. And a lot of the shots that he was getting to, he was making them, but, uh, he was just kind of doing his thing where he, he steps backwards. I don't know, it was, uh, he was, it seemed like he was burning a lot of calories to, to just take tough shots. Sometimes they go in, but that's just kind of the, the Jason Tatum experience.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  But hey, if they all go in and he finishes that, yeah, I definitely think it's a, it's a notch in, in his like legacy, you know, bullet point list.

• 10:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the offense just fell apart, um, in the last quarter and a half of the game where you could just feel it. You can feel when that, the ISO ball stuff starts, the balls, they stop running plays. They stop going, oh, let's post up holiday on this player. Let's run a little pick and pop with Derrick Way. And it just becomes all one-on-one stuff, clear out, you know, the one for. Kind of offense, which I don't know.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  I, well, that offense fed into a run by the Knicks. The Knicks scored 70 points in the second half. They had 37 points in the third quarter.

• 10:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Brunson made some great, great, great shots. And the Celtics fell asleep too, a couple of times. Like they left him open from three. They didn't switch over in time and they just kind of let him get into a groove. Cause you can kind of always feel when he's about to go on one of his little runs. But I thought Bridges really helped too.

• 11:07Bill Simmons?

  And it, you know, I, I didn't think Tibbs did a good job offensively the first three games, but I thought they mixed it up better in this game. It felt like everybody was a little, a little more involved. So this could, uh, this could go down as, we'll see what happens with Tatum, but this could go down as one of the, one of the darker Celtic days. I mean, honestly, cause especially the timing of, you know, not to mention he's at the peak of his career. He's never had a major injury, Tatum. And if this is like a, a major one, um, it doesn't just take him out for this playoffs, but it takes him out for, I think all of next year too. Uh, as you said, he is late twenties and you just wonder like, is he going to be able to get back to the point that he was at tonight?

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  So we'll find out.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Shame of it is the Celtics should have just tanked down the stretch, got themselves into the play in, lost in the play in game and then used a half of a percent chances. They're like a half percent. It's a miracle what happens in the NBA. Miracles happen, Bill Simmons.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  It's amazing how it shifted though, from what you were talking about, Bill. Like the conversation that we were, we were on this nice. And if you're lucky, you get to have this conversation about your career and everything has to go right. And it just speaks how difficult it is. But Tatum gets to this point in his, in his mid to late twenties where we're starting to have this conversation about like, well, what are the levels are there left? And now it's like, do we get to have that conversation again? You know, now it's shifted to like, you just spelled it out. Can he, it shifts to, can he get back? And yeah, that's, I mean, that's a huge fucking bummer, man. Because, um, and I was just thinking, I was talking to Howell about this before we got on that. Can you ever remember one night where there were more fan bases that were just absolutely depressed for a wide variety of reasons than tonight? Because I can't.

• 12:51Bill Simmons?

  Somehow, somehow House's fan base didn't crack the top two for, for, uh, most depressed. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens with, with Tatum, but I, you know, this speaks to A, how hard, how hard it is to win a title. B, how important injury luck is and C, how hard it is to just put together some really good years in a row. Like even to be in the finals two years in a row with how basketball's played down, how physical and intense it is. And you know, Tatum was playing 40, 43 minutes a night and doing everything. He was the leading rebounder in the team. He was guarding Brunson, you know, a few times in this series. And today, he was kind of their best option to guard Brunson.

• 13:32Bill Simmons?

  He was the point forward. Over and over again, he's attacking the rim. I thought when Hart tripped him, I couldn't, I thought that was a dirty play. They didn't even review it. But he, you know, he was getting pounded on the whole game. And, uh, you know, you need some luck with this stuff. We're gonna take, we're gonna take a break for the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant. Remember last year, people got really bad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula? One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? Degree listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. And thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes.

• 14:14Bill Simmons?

  And it's in Walmart, Target, and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some. Find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on, especially we're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back, and it smells like victory for all of us. The real reason you, you guys are on is because we're going to talk lottery. But for the, uh, I'm going on Zach Lowe's podcast tomorrow. Um, we're gonna, Zach went to the lottery, and I'm basically gonna set picks and rebounds for him as he's gonna talk about what it was like to be behind the scenes for that. So House, you had- What were your odds? You had the second best odds?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Well, it was a flat 14% for the three worst teams. That's how they flatten out the odds to disincentivize egregious tanking. But, you know, we're allowed to curse on this thing.

• 15:09Bill Simmons?

  Please curse.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't fucking matter. The fat thumb comes out when the fat thumb comes out. Now, I certainly understand, you know, there's a code and it's impossible to rig the balls, except for the last 30 fucking years have had a stunning number of miracles. I mean, let's go back to 2011, when the NBA owned the motherfucking New Orleans Hornets and somehow, miraculously, they find an owner. David Stern vetoes a trade for Chris Paul to go to the Lakers because it's going to tilt the competitive balance of the league. David Stern vetoed it

• 15:52Speaker 02

  for basketball reasons. They finally find a buyer for the New Orleans Hornets. Somebody steps in and buys it from the NBA. Lo and behold, the New Orleans Hornets get the number one overall draft pick in the league, and it's Anthony Davis. Can you believe it? Can you believe the good luck? I mean, we'll just go through it. I'm not going to sit here and do the whole thing. But 2013, 2014, back-to-back Cleveland number one overall picks, and LeBron comes back in 2014, and that number one pick turns into Kevin Love. Man, that's interesting. That's some interesting history right there. 2019.

• 16:29Bill Simmons?

  You forgot about 2011, when they had the decision, and then the year after, Cleveland won the lottery and got Kyrie Irving.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I didn't forget. I'm just saying, I don't want to subject us to the entire litany here, but I did have Tim Donahue with me downstairs, helping me remember some of these things. We're kind of mapping out, you know, some of the very interesting. It's really a league of miracles, this NBA of ours. But, you know, yes, New Orleans trades Anthony Davis to the Lakers, and miraculously, it's another miracle. I mean, you know, a league full of miracles. They jump, New Orleans jumps from the seventh spot in terms of the pre-draft, where they should have been right up to the number one.

• 17:11Bill Simmons?

  So the best way to get the pick is to trade your best guy to the Lakers? And then the miracles will align.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  First of all, you're a

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Sacrifice of a fat cat.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're the son of a bitch who said that this was all gonna happen back in March.

• 17:27Bill Simmons?

  I know. We had a worst contracts pod and I did a 35 second spiel on how we had to bet on Dallas to win the lottery because it was clearly how we were headed. It's all in one of the podcasts. Come on, that's crazy. And it's like, it's not crazy. It's like 100 one odds. Let's bet it. Of course, we didn't bet it.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  No, we didn't bet it.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  It was 40 to one today. Should have bet it.

• 17:52Bill Simmons?

  Come in. I had a whole conspiracy bill outfit I was gonna wear that my daughter helped picked out, but I'm so depressed after the Tatum thing. I'm not, I'm not doing any props. I'm just playing it straight.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Do you want to cry on your, on your props?

• 18:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I, I'm not gonna wear the props, but this was just a hilarious outcome. I just, I couldn't believe it when they, when they leapt into the top four. First of all, who, who did the, who did it for ESPN? Kevin Nagandi? He screwed up. He said Philly lost their pick and Philly had it. We hadn't even found out what was gonna happen. And then Philly goes in there. So we have three people jump into there and it's Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, and then Charlotte was the only one that belonged. And it's just, we go to commercial and it's like, come on, Dallas is gonna win this. Come on. There's no way. There's no way this is gonna be the outcome. Stop it. Come on. What were you thinking as we got to the final four, other than our buddy Charks?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Well, I was gonna say, if you saw like a live satellite image, I'm sure there were just like fires that just sort of lit up all across the map during that commercial break.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I noted in my, my notes are pretty funny here. Well, first I was just like, why is Zion repping the Pelicans? And then Chicago, well, when Dallas started to climb at like 10, I guess, I noted it. I was like, whoa, I was like, even then I was, and then as they just continued, you know, the Wizards obviously plummet, the Jazz plummet. It remind, what Nico has done here, it reminded me, his ability to, you know, navigate is the heavy, heaviest quotes imaginable. For him to go from that to where we were tonight, it reminded me of my wife and I were on the interstate in like a torrential downpour one time and this minivan lost control and hydroplaned and somehow miraculously avoided hitting another car and the minivan we watched

• 19:42Speaker 01

  go up ahead of us and there happened to be a ramp for a tow truck on the side of the road and the minivan came to a complete stop unharmed on the ramp on the side of the road and we were like, how the fuck? It was like Final Destination. That's the equivalent of what Nico just did. Like he somehow survived. Did he survive? I think we've opened up a whole, like, there's a whole other slew of questions and options from here. But I mean, it's just, it's, I mean, I can't help but think of the fans that have, I don't know, what is ethical? Rob tweeted out that there are no basketball gods and this is proof of it. And that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. I'm feeling, I'm feeling the

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  This is the all time night for me to feel that way. Yeah, listen, they had 8.5% odds to move into the top four and 1.8 to win the thing. So when we went in a commercial, I was like, all right, 8.5 makes sense. Charlotte had 14. Charlotte's probably going to win. Dallas will get like two, three or four. I was more mad that Philly somehow got, you know, got their bacon saved and ended up staying in the top six. I think that was another thing House for conspiracy bill. They couldn't let OKC have the seventh pick in the draft. They had to maybe do something on that, but.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll just interrupt you for a second. This, another miracle, Daryl Morey and Nico Harrison both get rewarded. Two of the top three worst contract responsible for the worst outcomes in terms of their franchises during the course of this season. And both, it's just a miracle that both of them, you know, land where they land. I mean, JKM had to use a real life miracle to make the analogy to the miracle.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  I liked yours over text, Joe. I don't know if you're willing to say it, but yours was pretty good.

• 21:24Bill Simmons?

  I'll give you the, I'll give you the actual numbers. 0.014 for that top three to go the way it did, which I think, I think says it all. And Utah somehow falls to five and House's stupid team, the Wizards, who were either one of the worst or second worst teams of the season, and they fall to six.

• 21:46Bill Simmons?

  And you can't make this shit up, House.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  I mean, I had the good fortune of going on with Kyle on the NBA draft show last week and he, he was very kind. He said, let's, let's do a state of the Wizards. Um, within all reason, we think that they're going to get one of the top four picks, like at the very outside. You know what pick we didn't discuss under any circumstances whatsoever? The sixth fucking pick. We didn't talk about number six.

• 22:14Bill Simmons?

  You didn't talk about three teams jumping you?

• 22:17Speaker 02

  We, we, we didn't, we didn't because.

• 22:19Bill Simmons?

  Four teams.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I thought we played the karma game pretty wisely. I mean, I, you know, we were conceding like probably not the first. Let's talk about some of the lower guys, but I just didn't conceive of this outcome, House. I'm sorry, man. Really sorry.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Well, cause it's, it's inconceivable really when it, when it comes out.

• 22:35Bill Simmons?

  Can we go through, can we go through some of the Dallas stuff?

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  Topic number one. Did Dallas now win the trade? They traded Anthony Davis?

• 22:48Bill Simmons?

  Or they traded, uh, Luka Doncic for Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag? If I presented that trade to you in January, we at least would have had a phone call about the house.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Sure. Like.

• 22:58Bill Simmons?

  I'm not saying they intentionally won the trade. I'm just saying history, the way it works out. It's like, all right, if we're going to trade Luka Doncic, we get Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  It really, you know, just makes you really wonder because it was a no bid trade, right? It wasn't, he didn't go around and canvass the league. There's not a lot of evidence that other teams were consulted. What would you be willing to give up for, for Luka?

• 23:25Bill Simmons?

  A trade that everybody thought was the fishiest trade in the history of the league, but it happened. And now it's paid off for Dallas. But Kyle, just on paper, Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag for Luka Doncic is in the realm of a fair basketball trade.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I don't bristle so much at that. Yeah. I'm just like, yeah, we, we have something for now and we have something in Cooper Flag. Odds are he'll be ready to go sooner than later, based on everything that we've seen, but you know, you can kind of bring him in.

• 23:51Bill Simmons?

  Didn't seem happy by the way.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:54Bill Simmons?

  I didn't, I didn't, do you notice the look on his face?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Two things, two things. First of all, there's no way that Nico doesn't take Cooper, right? That would be the funniest thing. He took.

• 24:02Bill Simmons?

  Loves defense.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Would that be the funniest thing? That would be the funniest thing.

• 24:06Bill Simmons?

  Now.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  But the second thing is Dallas isn't a great fit for a brand new play, like the other, only other young guy there, timeline wise, is lively. Like they're super in transition. They don't have a point guard. They don't have a starting point guard right now.

• 24:21Bill Simmons?

  He's Kyle, just make the 45 second case that how much better he is than the next possible prospect in the lottery. Like you have to take him, right?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, the simplest way to put it is he's the most well-rounded prospect of my, I mean, other than he's on a short list. I would say him and LeBron, I'm saying, but LeBron had the shooting issues. He had a lot of things to figure out. Even though the highs are higher with some of the guys, you know, but it's just Cooper is the most well-rounded prospect of my lifetime. That's the simplest way to put it. And the other guys in this.

• 24:49Bill Simmons?

  And he grew, he grew an inch.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And, and he has offensive upside to max out in some different areas. And we just haven't seen a lot of guys like that. So I just, the big question for the Mavs for me is just what's nailed down? I mean, they, are they going to just completely start over, you know, because it's like Kyrie's coming back. What, what is out of the realm of possibility for them in terms of what they could, what they could do to just, uh, to, you know, springboard off of this?

• 25:14Bill Simmons?

  Well.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Well, and that other thing with him, he just turned 18. Like, yeah, he grew, he grew because he just turned 18. I mean, he's a young, young, young fella, but go ahead.

• 25:22Bill Simmons?

  Right. He's still taking like the long naps and getting up at three in the, three in the afternoon. I think he can play right away next year and be good. So for what they're, what they're trying to do, the question for me now is, could they flip Gafford or Lively and try to get one more score and try to buy time and, and just be in the playoff picture? And then hope that Kyrie can come back April range and be in really good shape. I do wonder, there's two trades. Actually, there's three trades. And I don't think they should trade flag. I think they should keep him. I'm just gonna.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  You gotta.

• 25:53Bill Simmons?

  Say that.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Bill Simmons?

  But would you, would you trade him to get Luca back would be the first trade? That would be the funniest outcome of all of it, right?

• 26:01Speaker 02

  That's the funniest.

• 26:04Bill Simmons?

  No. That would be hilarious. I mean, they'd have to throw in contracts, but like, what would the Lakers do if they called and said, "Hey, we want Luca back. We'll give you Cooper flag and some contracts." Second, now can I, I just, I'll do a quick Yanis thing. That story today, I don't know what the hell that story was about. Yanis is now open to discussions about maybe what can happen down the road in the, this summer and this season. Did he ask for a trade? No.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  He's actively open minded, Bill. Have you never found yourself in that?

• 26:34Bill Simmons?

  About his future? Who the fuck isn't? And by the way, he almost asked for a trade two years ago. I would assume every player who's one of the best players in the league, who hasn't made the conference finals in four years, and who the second best player in his team just had a season ending injury and probably isn't playing next year. I would assume they're probably open minded about some things about their future. Did he ask for a trade? No. How is this a story? This is what I call the Monday news thump house. We have the Friday news dump. The Monday news thump. Monday news thump. Let's start the news cycle on a Monday morning with a story that's not really a story, but we get a whole day of conversation out of it.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  You know who is actively open minded? Frank in White Lotus and Rockwell. He was actively open minded.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  I was trying to think of a guy for that.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Tonight, I'm telling you about how actively open minded I am.

• 27:29Bill Simmons?

  I'm only laughing so I don't cry.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Offense. Great job. Great job, Yanis.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  I think you could ask Nico before the lottery and he would have said he was actively open minded about getting the number one pick. It's just like, yeah, well, just.

• 27:43Bill Simmons?

  Oh wait, so Yanis is open minded about maybe some other alternatives than playing for a 43 and 39 team? Really? He's gonna take some time to think about that? Anyway, if they tried to offer this pick for Yanis, which would be more on the Thailand, that timeline that Kyle May had mentioned.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  You said Thailand.

• 28:02Bill Simmons?

  And Thailand.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  So I put it out in the paper for a white guy who looked like me.

• 28:10Bill Simmons?

  They'd have to match some contracts back, but Anthony Davis with Giannis, that's not nothing. Then the third thing is, and I don't think they should do this either. So I vote no on the first two trades.

• 28:21Bill Simmons?

  What would they have to throw in with the number two, if you're San Antonio, to move up one spot?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 28:28Bill Simmons?

  Now it gets interesting. If you really, and again, I would not trade flag, but if San Antonio was like, we'll just flip spots and here's a whole bunch of stuff.

• 28:39Bill Simmons?

  Like they have a war chest of picks. I probably would include anyone except Castle and obviously Wemba Yama. But, but I just wonder, like, could Dallas, like, actually turn this into a real haul? And, you know? You didn't exclude the Aaron Fox? You're putting him on the table? Well, what am I gonna do with him and Kyrie? Kyrie's still on the team. Kyrie ain't playing next year, buddy. I know, I know it's not. The Aaron Fox could play.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  You should see Kyrie's ever the same again, but I'm not, I'm not ready to assume that at his age, you know? I just think the Mavs, the Mavs, the more you think about the roster, they are gonna have some, they have some dissonance in the Gafford. I know that it's kind of up in the air, the Gafford lively AD like flag thing, even if they did somehow get into the Giannis conversation. Giannis and AD is fun to think about, but do we, do we talk about the aging curve for Giannis enough, though? He's 31 years old. He's a heavily downhill player. You know, the shooting.

• 29:38Bill Simmons?

  Can't really shoot. Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Is how is, I love him to death, but I just wonder how his game is gonna age and you think, you just start to think about trading him and what's, what's the upside? How much time are you really gonna get? I don't know about, I don't know about.

• 29:51Bill Simmons?

  Can I ask you a Cooper flag roster question?

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's go.

• 29:54Bill Simmons?

  Could you play him at small forward?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Bill Simmons?

  Why not?

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Totally agree. Think that's the honestly, the best spot for him to get his NBA.

• 30:03Bill Simmons?

  So they could trot out lively with Anthony Davis and flag and that's their frontline and he could guard, you know, perimeter scorers, right? And get away with it. No, why are you making gestures?

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Cause I want to hear Kyle's defense of Cooper's defense. If he's going to play that shooting guard spot, you know, that small forward spot.

• 30:25Bill Simmons?

  Larry Bird played it.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  He's out guarding, he's out guarding perimeter players in the modern NBA with the, with the slash ability of a lot of the modern NBA. What's your, what's your honest assessment, Kyle?

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Jacoby and I were texting about this because he noticed that the one thing, if you wanted to nitpick Cooper's defense is that he does bend at his back a little bit in his posture. He doesn't sit as low as some, and it, but he is also a generationally special help defender. So the, and so if you think about having, my God, if you, if you just think about having AD and flag on the floor together, um, those are two of the best help. I mean, those are two of the best space covering disruptive defenders of the last ever. I mean, on the same, another thing too, is that flag is a really good lob thrower. So you're putting on the, you're putting another guy on the floor that can throw to AD. So those two things are interesting. In terms of like guarding the ball, I mean, he can guard threes and fours. I don't see any problem with that.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 31:22Bill Simmons?

  Also, he can grow into it. Maybe he's like a 25 to 20 minutes. I, I, listen, there's no centers. Everybody needs a center. And if they wanted to shop Gafford, I mean, ironically, the Lakers are a team that could use a center. Maybe we could have a little Gafford, Austin Reeves trade finally and the Mavs could throw in more stuff.

• 31:44Bill Simmons?

  I, uh,

• 31:47Bill Simmons?

  oh, the last Dallas thing. House mentioned it earlier. They made the playing game and won the lottery.

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  They were in the playing game and one Cooper flag. What if Memphis had just beaten them? Then they're the eight seed. Remember that game? I think House and I bet on Dallas.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  No, Memphis did beat them.

• 32:09Bill Simmons?

  That's what I'm saying. That's how they ended up in the lottery. Did we bet on Dallas in that playing game?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  I can't remember now. We bet on Dallas definitely to beat Sacramento. But then I think I laid away because the Memphis game was in Memphis. And it was like a chance for Memphis to prove that the whole season wasn't a waste. So I think we decided to stay away.

• 32:28Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead. But what if you went to Cancun with Expedia? Save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. 123 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV.

• 33:14Bill Simmons?

  Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what? You're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. Well, House did this earlier and I'm going to do my version of. I'm not saying these lotteries were rigged. But if we ever found out 60 years later that a lottery was rigged, these would be my candidates.

• 33:56Bill Simmons?

  Here's my list. Number one, Patrick Ewing, New York Knicks, 1985 with the seven envelopes. And whether they froze the side of one of them, it would have been the easiest one to rig. Put it that way. Uh, number two is the Kyrie Cleveland, 2011. After LeBron went to Miami. Number three was the 2019. Thanks for trading Anthony Davis to the Lakers. Now here's Zion Williamson. Number four was, thanks for buying the, the, uh, the New Orleans basketball team. Here's young Anthony Davis as your prize, 2012. Number five was the 2014. Man, LeBron just needs one more asset and he might go back to Cleveland.

• 34:37Bill Simmons?

  Ah, we'll give them number one pick. And then number six for me would be LeBron in Cleveland in 2003. Sending him.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Home.

• 34:45Bill Simmons?

  Back to Ohio, home versus sending him to Memphis. So I'm not saying the NBA rigs the lotteries. I'm just saying, if we ever found out 60 years from now that there was more than one shooter for JFK and there was one rigged lottery. Those would be my, uh, my choices. Okay.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  The magic, the magic getting Penny was pretty crazy or getting Weber ultimately was pretty crazy percentage too. Wasn't it? Wasn't it down there in the, was it like 4% or something crazy like that? But I don't know. But that's like, I mean, that works against your argument, I guess, right? Any, any freak sort of, you know, movement in the odds.

• 35:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The against the arguments was how San Antonio just got Tim Duncan and Victor Wembiehan somehow. Right? Those would be the two.

• 35:31Bill Simmons?

  Uh, San Antonio at number two, Kyle. So they're, they get, I mean, there's so much basketball news today. The Knicks are up 3-1. Tatum, God only knows how bad that injury was. We still don't know. Flag goes to Dallas. Nico Harrison, I guess saves his job.

• 35:48Bill Simmons?

  And yet buried in underneath all of this is, oh shit, I hope San Antonio doesn't get another awesome pick. And they end up getting number two, which you think is going to be Dylan Harper, right?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. I thought a lot about it. And, you know, I think for them, if San Antonio does stay in the thinking that we were just talking about where they are definitely, they could play this a number of ways. They could play this where they could potentially look at getting a bigger piece because we know Victor is ready to roll. I mean, he's, he's, he's ready. He has been ready sooner than we thought. You know, he's already on that defensive player of the year, you know, track. They go and they get De'Aaron Fox to show their seriousness. Are they going to make one more move? But I think taking Harper, if you look at it just in the right now basketball sense, I wrote in our mock draft that just went up. If you want to check that out, we're going to talk about it more on the Ringer NBA Draft Show tomorrow. But he can play with Fox, he can play, he can play

• 36:41Speaker 01

  with any, they can bring him along slowly, because he has such great positional size. But I also think that he's, if they do choose to make a move, I think he's the best asset available. So he kind of serves both purposes because Harper isn't quite the flag level. You know, he's probably more on the Cade level of a number one pick type player if, if, if flag wasn't there. But I think he's the most attractive asset for if there's a team out there that is heartbroken, that wants to make a move, that wants to start over, let's say hypothetically, just pulling the name out of the hat, Milwaukee, a great square one starting point. I think Harper, you know, serves that purpose. So I think they can do both there. I don't think I would go any other direction than Harper there.

• 37:21Bill Simmons?

  Hey, news just broke that Giannis is open minded about barbecue tonight.

• 37:28Bill Simmons?

  But would also consider Ty.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  So did Frank.

• 37:33Bill Simmons?

  House, would you, what, what needs to be in a Giannis trade if the number two pick is the prize of the trade to get Giannis? What else needs to be in there? Do I have to get Castle if I'm Milwaukee? Is it number two and I have to get both?

• 37:48Bill Simmons?

  Am I good with number two and a bunch of picks? Does Devin Vassell have to be in that trade? Who else needs to be in it? For you?

• 37:55Speaker 02

  The hard thing is like, what are you trying to tell your fans? Isn't it better to tell your fans? We had an awesome run. Giannis was with us. The title that he delivered, we had a once in a generation, once in a lifetime player here. He was loyal. He hasn't done anything wrong. He committed, he extended, he extended. They tried to build a good team for him to compete. If he goes, I think it's better to just be brutally bad. I just think it's better to start over as many picks as you can get.

• 38:28Bill Simmons?

  But they don't have their own picks is the problem.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  They have to get as many picks as they can. That's, that's what I'm saying. They need every pick that they can get and just jettison everybody. Cause otherwise, you know, what's the point of 32 wins? Like, what's the point of, you know, just, just Castle? Is Castle and Harper on the same, basically the same timeline? Is that like a, a, a good starting point? Does that like prime the pump a little bit for what a rehab rebuild looks like?

• 38:57Speaker 01

  You're still gonna be bad. I think if those are two, I mean, the league, yeah, the, the, the bar, the bar is such that I think they're still gonna be bad enough to, to, to pick. And you know, I, yeah, go get the picks. But if I'm, if I'm Milwaukee in this hypothetical scenario, yeah, I'm trying to get, I'm gonna try to get Vassell. I'm trying to think, Johnson seems like he's gonna be expendable to whatever they're doing here.

• 39:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, you need contracts to put in for Giannis trade is part of the problem. If I'm San Antonio, if I think Harper is gonna be this good, Wemby's, what is Wemby? Like 21?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  So young.

• 39:33Bill Simmons?

  Like what, what kind of timetable am I in anyway? Like, and I'm the king of, hey, if you have somebody who's awesome, the timetable should start like pretty soon, but Wemby's still pretty young. For, from a Harper standpoint, like your absolute ceiling on him, could he be the second best guy on the title team? Like, is that the ceiling or would you say third best guy?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I think he could be the second best. I mean, if you think the big thing for him is the dribble pull-up shooting, if he can shoot the ball off the dribble because he shot it pretty well off the catch in a really abysmal Rutgers offense. Like, I cannot emphasize enough how bad.

• 40:12Bill Simmons?

  So they just had the worst coach ever? Like, how do you have two top four picks?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  I think it's whenever, whenever, I think there are a lot of factors at play. I think whenever you're a program that doesn't typically have those types of players, I just think they, they were top-heavy in what they could pay for. I think just the whole rest of the supporting cast just did, could not. Their bigs were awful, their passing, and it hurt, it hurt Bailey even more than it hurt Harper. But yeah, I think if he, if he can improve the dribble pull-up shooting, he gets downhill, he can pass. Tom Creanum, our show, was talking about how he needs to pass with his right hand a little bit better. But, you know, those are, those are nitpicks. I think he's gonna get there. But man, his, his footwork in the paint is really, really exceptional, really, really special, special. I mean, he, he shot something like 72% at the rim on like, really, really high ball. Those, that's like, you know, big guy numbers.

• 41:02Bill Simmons?

  So you had for player comps?

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Ron Harper.

• 41:07Bill Simmons?

  Little, like a little James Harden-ish? There's like a whiff of James Harden in there?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  I, I didn't, I don't remember what I had in my, we, we, we both allowed each other the liberty to make our picks, so he would have to explain his thinking on it. But I kinda, I mean, my, my one that I was, that I had in my notebook is, I said that he could thread a needle between Cade Cunningham and Jalen Brunson because his feet remind me of Jalen, but he's bigger.

• 41:32Bill Simmons?

  That sounds like James Harden.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  He's bigger. Yeah. I mean, he's not quite the natural passer that, that James is, but yeah, his downhill stuff is exceptional. Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Would have been really good on the Wizards. Sorry, House. Sorry.

• 41:43Bill Simmons?

  House, what do you want, what do you want San Antonio to do? Just the long haul?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Bill Simmons?

  Just keep adding young pieces, then you can maybe lure a free agent in two years?

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  And Fox is a tremendous trade asset. Like, you know, it's kinda stupid. They just acquired him and we're already, I'm already ready to trade him, but I am ready to trade him.

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but House, that was a wink, wink special, though.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  What's that mean?

• 42:06Bill Simmons?

  We'll trade for you now and we'll give you a big contract in the summer or whatever. That's already a done.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Talk about De'Aaron Fox?

• 42:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Harper and Fox can play together, I think.

• 42:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Okay, all right.

• 42:18Bill Simmons?

  Good.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 42:20Bill Simmons?

  I forget who, I forget who said this on my pod. I really apologize. I think it might've been Goldsberry. Can't remember. About Fox playing with Sabonis, two lefties rolling off with the, throwing the lob. Is that you, Kyle, man?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  No, I think Kirk said that. I remember his sound like a Goldsberry.

• 42:36Bill Simmons?

  How weird it is to have a lefty driving left, but throwing lobs to a lefty where it's like now you have the Wemba Yama and it just like makes more sense for the lobs. Um, Philadelphia number three. Oh, one more thing on San Antonio. So we end up beefing up those two teams. We might've lost Jason Tatum tonight for a year. Cleveland's completely self-combusted. And the West just, we always have, we go in these phases where it seems like finally the West, we're finally gonna get a league with a little more balance. And now the league feels more imbalanced than it's ever been. You know? Think like we're gonna have an Indiana, New York Eastern Conference Finals potentially, unless the Celtics can miraculously come back,

• 43:20Bill Simmons?

  which I wouldn't necessarily bet on. But, uh, now you look at like the two best guys in this draft that everybody feels the best about. We're both going to the West, combined with Lucas still there, et cetera, et cetera. All right, Philly. So I asked you to send me a mock draft, Kyle, of just the top six or seven. And you had Ace Bailey going here to Philly, who is the most polarizing, high draft prospect I can remember. People don't know what to make of this dude. And I gotta admit, I haven't done the full deep dive of him yet, but pretty unusual. One of those guys who could have 27 points, zero rebounds and zero assists. And that could just be his box score.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this is one we can kind of, I think your points that you've made about him are valid based on what Maury has liked in the past. I think there's a couple of ways to think about this. If Philly-

• 44:13Bill Simmons?

  We gotta say what those points were, because I was texting them to you.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 44:17Bill Simmons?

  I was saying, Daryl loves fill the box score guys.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:22Bill Simmons?

  He loves like the 18 points, eight rebounds, seven assists, three steals, and Ace-

• 44:27Speaker 01

  What's not to love?

• 44:28Bill Simmons?

  Ace is kind of the opposite. And but Kyle, you had Ace going to the Sixers anyway, but I thought you had a good case for it.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, if you're thinking about the Sixers and you, I'll throw this to some of you for you guys for how you feel about what they're going to be thinking about, you know, are they going to make a serious run at rebooting this in the short term? I mean, you might as well, in turn, well, the Embiid thing is a whole other conversation, but I'm thinking of, if you're going to run this back and try one more time, Bailey does fit with with what they would be doing because their ball, their touches are spoken for with Embiid, with Paul George, with Maxey, with McCain when he comes back. Bailey, you know, Bailey is a guy who, for people who haven't watched him, the most similar guy in terms of his shot diet is is Michael Porter Jr. And the fact that he makes a lot, he's a non-

• 45:23Speaker 01

  You both made faces. He's a tough shot maker, you know, and I think he's somebody, and one of the, his efficiencies were hurt by what we were talking about before. He can, he loves to, he's somebody that like at the end of the clock, he can just make something out of nothing. So he has that, but he's also a pretty good athlete. There was a lot of, Zach and I were talking about his measurement coming in. There were people that thought he was six foot 10. I had heard that he was closer to six foot eight and a quarter. It turns out that's kind of closer to what he is, but he's somebody, he's a supplementary kind of a guy, but he's long and explosive off of one step. So he can kind of block shots. But my thing that I was saying to you about VJ, which is what you thought, VJ absolutely could fit the bill in what you're talking about in terms of he could, he could turn, he's somebody that's not going to be really role insistent

• 46:06Speaker 01

  early on. He's going to be able to play off the ball. He's a crazy athlete. He measured really well. I think it's six foot five. I need to get the exact number.

• 46:13Bill Simmons?

  We needed him to get to six foot five to be, I think, the third pick, right? Because you were worried he was going to basically be like a two guard. Yeah, we needed him to be a little bit bigger so he could guard basically every position.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I was worried he was gonna be like a Ben Gordon type where it's like, oh, he's a great athlete. And it's like, ah, shit, he's like 6'2 and 1/2 with it. But no, he's he measured well. My thing was, I kind of wondered about McCain, Maxey, and Edgecombe together. I just the way that those guys play together, they're a little on the smaller side, all three of them are. And when you're moving forward, but I, you know, I could honestly, that one, I could kind of go either way. But I thought Ace fit more into what they have right now, and he could improve a lot over time.

• 46:53Bill Simmons?

  My money would be on Edgecombe. Just feels like more of a Daryl pick. Hey, meanwhile, House, you're not getting either guy.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  That's a true story.

• 47:00Bill Simmons?

  Both of them are off the board by the time Wizards are out.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  The Sixers really earned it, you know, the Sixers really, you know, they, they, they have a vision with their franchise. They're, you know, in this development. This is my one question, and I guess I'll go into the Philly message boards to get this. What's the track record for this iteration of the Philadelphia coaching staff in terms of development? Because either Ace or Newcomb, those are both development players. They're not NBA ready, in my humble opinion. They can come in and be on the floor, but they're not NBA competitive ready. So what is, in the first place, Philadelphia has to answer, who are we? What are we going to do this upcoming season? Are we going to try and, you know, make a deep run in the playoffs? Or is this a transition year? And then question two, how are we going to develop this kid that we're going to get at number three?

• 47:48Bill Simmons?

  Or do you package three and Paul George and try to get somebody?

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Love that. Love that. That is, that's a Daryl Morey.

• 47:57Bill Simmons?

  It's like, hey, any interest in the last three years of Paul George's contract? But you also get the number three pick in the draft? And then, you know, I wish Rudy was on the Zoom quick, so I could throw out the Franz Wagner for Paul George in number three.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Oh, that's not fair.

• 48:11Bill Simmons?

  That's not, not, not an interesting trade.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  What about, I mean, Miami needs it more.

• 48:17Bill Simmons?

  Miami doesn't have any assets other than Bam.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  They have nothing. Miami has nothing.

• 48:22Bill Simmons?

  That's my favorite one team, when people list the Giannis teams, they're like, in Miami. It's like, what the fuck is Miami trading? They're trading Bam out of bio for Giannis, and then he has, Giannis has nobody on his team.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  Couple more interesting, interesting things about Philly. Two GMs saved their jobs tonight, it feels like. Cause if that pick falls to seven, I don't think Daryl gets fired tomorrow, but I think he really needed that pick. Um, now, now there's positive momentum in a whole bunch of different ways. And then Nico Harrison, obviously we were headed toward, you know, God only knows what, you know, we didn't talk about this with the Dallas piece. I forgot to mention it. I know a lot of Mavs fans, uh, I won't, I won't name two of them that have told me this, that, um, after the Luca trade, just did not want to root for the team anymore.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't say that wasn't, that wasn't.

• 49:14Bill Simmons?

  But literally it was like, I'm out. And then they got flag.

• 49:19Bill Simmons?

  And they're like, I'm still out.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Oh, you've got, you got that message tonight?

• 49:25Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if I believe that. I think that's just, that's just somebody being wounded, but I think, I think they come back for flag. I just think.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  They feel the way, they're going to go through the phase of mad at Nico for it working out for him. Like I think we're going to go through that phase and then they'll slowly be softened into sort of a, I don't know, a blissful nihilism or something. I don't know. It just seems like, it seems like that's the reaction immediately, right?

• 49:49Speaker 02

  It's late night on, on the BS pod. Can I say that he's the white fit? I mean, you go from, from Dirk to Luca to Cooper, there's a certain through line, a certain commonality there that seems like it might suit the situation.

• 50:03Bill Simmons?

  The league is built around luck.

• 50:06Bill Simmons?

  You can make the worst trade, recent history of professional sports, and then it works out. You can be playing the best game, one of the best games of your career, and all of a sudden be rolling around in a heap. Now I'm depressed again. Um, I can't believe this Jason Tatum thing. I feel like I'm like one of those things where I'm in shock and it hasn't set in yet. And then I'm going to look back two hours from now and be like, how did I do an hour long YouTube live?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  It's called shock. Yeah.

• 50:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, could Philly be good next year would be another question.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  You said positive momentum. I'm like, the more we're talking about it, it's like, is it that positive?

• 50:42Bill Simmons?

  They got McCain and the number three pick coming back next year, and then maybe keep your fingers crossed. Who knows? Embiid possibly sort of maybe.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Let's set the over under for number of games he plays in the regular season, 2025, 2026. I'll set it at 35 and a half.

• 51:02Bill Simmons?

  How he is what 31?

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Does it matter? I don't know. 30, 31, 32, whatever he is.

• 51:09Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything,

• 51:54Bill Simmons?

  and whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now, that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Charlotte ends up with the fourth pick, and that's going to be whoever Philly doesn't take between Bailey and Edgecombe, or is that, is there a Trey Johnson potential there?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  31, by the way. You said, Charlotte's.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Fourth pick Charlotte. They should just change their name. Fourth pick Charlotte.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  I had him taking Edgecombe because I thought that he was a nice, he's a nice balance between if they really are going to lean in and keep, keep the Brandon Miller, LaMelo thing going. That's, those two are god, big wings who can handle and pass and dribble, pull, shoot. I think they needed somebody to get downhill. They really need something to balance out that trio. And I think Edgecombe is a guy who is less usage insistent compared to those two guys. I think he'll be happy to play the role that he'll play. So, and also, he's a lob threat, too. I don't think people understand. I compared him to the way he jumps. He's incredibly fast off the floor. Have you gotten even see Edgecombe yet? Just, he is fucking Superman.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  You encouraged me to do so, but I saved it. Because I thought we were going to get one, two, or three. I was saving my Edgecombe. I was like, oh, downside scenario. I don't want to jinx it. I don't want to look at the guy who's going to get taken fourth, because my team's not going to get, not going to be drafting fourth, you know? So, no, I haven't looked at him.

• 53:27Bill Simmons?

  There's no chance he can go second, right? That you would just rule that out, cross it off, it's not happening.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Anything's possible. I mean, he.

• 53:36Bill Simmons?

  Like, do you think Harper has second locked up?

• 53:42Bill Simmons?

  Cause I think, I, I think when teams work out edge come and really look at the, it's just the kind of guy you need and the kind of guy you've needed in the NBA for 20 years, you know?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  He's a little, he's a shade. They're roughly, they're a push in terms of their age. I, I just think that Harper is just so much more advanced than him in terms of like his on ball creation and stuff like that. But the counter is, you know, BJ, BJ was a pretty good, if you watch him shoot the ball, he kind of looks like an athlete who has learned to shoot. It's not as natural. It's, but I'm not down, he will get there. I mean, you see like OG has developed into a great shooter, but obviously apples and oranges on that. But I mean, BJ, I, I still feel like Harper is a solid number two. The Spurs though, I mean.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  Who knows? Yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  They always seem to kind of have their own board. And you talk to some of these teams, I've talked to teams who'd be like, you know, we had so and so number two and just kind of are bowled back by that. You get, you can get a little drunk and misled by the, the public, thinking that the public discourse is the same as the behind closed doors discourse. And I, I think people would be a little shocked by how different it can be sometimes.

• 54:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you have Conklinipal going to Utah at five. And I just want to say, he's my, he's my favorite in this draft. Um, just cause I like him, cause he's a listener. So shout out to him.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 55:03Bill Simmons?

  He listens to the show? Yeah, he listens. There's a picture of him, um, reading my book when he's like eight years old. So he's about now my favorite player in the draft because I'm selfish.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  You didn't tell me that. Did you know that from the beginning?

• 55:15Bill Simmons?

  I only found it out last week because I kept talking about how much I liked him. Cause remember I, I kept saying that I thought he was going to go five spots too late. But now it seems like he's not going to go five spots too late. You think he's going to go in the top seven.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's an awesome player. And I think he's gonna, he's gonna do both. He has great size. He can, they need passing and they need shooting and he is gonna be a great fit in that, in that sense. Like, he's gonna immediately.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm super in on him. He can play basketball.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  He's a Hooper.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  He, he, he's a Hooper. Um, I love that he's always trying to get to the paint. He's not like, um, dilly-dallying out here. Let me see. No, man's going downhill. He's trying to get to the paint. He's welcoming the contact. He's got that big body, 6'7", 220. That's a baller. And, you know, his, his instincts, uh, in terms of offensive rebounding, I don't know what the numbers are. I'd let Kyle, um, share. I just felt like he was always around the basket when Duke needed, you know, a hand on a ball, a tip, something like that.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Big KK fan.

• 56:17Bill Simmons?

  That leads us to, uh, the Wizards, the number six.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  What do you got, Kyle? Uh, Canipal, I wanted to add this on their 49% on spot up looks this year and, uh, 39% on off screen. Yeah, he's a, he's a dynamic shooter.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  And how old is he? Is he? What's, what's the age for him?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Uh, Canipal's almost 20. Yeah, but it can vary a lot.

• 56:41Bill Simmons?

  This is the picture of him reading my book.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  But let's get Utah to send us.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna have him on. I gotta have him on, right?

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Well, I want to, I want a Canipal jersey. Get Utah to send us some Canipal jerseys.

• 56:54Bill Simmons?

  He's my favorite player. It's a picture of him as a kid reading my book. That's all I need. I don't need any, any other, any other data.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  And I can corroborate, Bill texted well before he got that news.

• 57:03Bill Simmons?

  I did. I just, you, you could just tell. You know, my certain, the, the people who are always moving without the ball and are additive. Those are always the guys I'm gonna be drawn to. So number six.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. House didn't seem to like this, but I was thinking, I think there could be some serious movement. I think there could be, I like the hypothetical of what they could add here because Sar is this hypothetical, there's that word again, take a drink, stretch big, he obviously is not super comfortable around the basket yet, playing with force, that's been an issue, are you, are you waiting for me to call on you?

• 57:37Speaker 02

  No, I'm waiting because I am going to surprise you. Okay, okay. Please complete your thought.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  I think they have a chance here, now that you've fallen, you can really lean into an identity of just being gigantic, I think that if you put Malawatch next to Sar, next to Kula Bali, that already is a crazy young, huge front court, but also at six, I could see, like, Atlanta really needs a guy like Malawatch, I could see them, I could see somebody reaching up if that, who needs an anchor, like, they're one example, I haven't heard a ton of buzz about that, but that's, that's one just kind of hypothetical idea that I was thinking about for the, for the whiz, lean into being huge.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  I fucking love Malawatch, not only do I love him, this is an honest, honest to God truth, I tried to make the case for him during the NCAA tournament because of how impactful he was controlling the defensive boards and his shot blocking early in the tournament, I tried to convince my guys on East Coast bias to join me on like, I think it was like 175 to one for him to win most outstanding player in the final four, because the way that he can control the, on defense, the impactfulness, I think it's an incredible fit, he's exactly on the timeline that these young guys are on, they're all basically

• 58:58Speaker 02

  the same age, between 18 and a half and 20 and a half at best, and he, what they are missing is indeed a defensive presence, a low post shot blocker, rim protector, because Sar wants to be out on the perimeter and that's fine, his feet are good, he can go out and defend threes and fours a little bit, and Kula Bali, you know, if he, if he just needs, he needs a little more ass on him, I might have to take him out eating here in DC, I got some spots for him, we need some calories for the man.

• 59:29Bill Simmons?

  But isn't the whole point of Sar is like, he, he's basically could be Serge Ibaka, right? You can play those two together.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely, you can. Yes.

• 59:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's just, I don't think he gets past six.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  I'm bullish.

• 59:43Bill Simmons?

  And I have done admittedly not nearly enough work on this draft yet, but it felt, it felt like the five guys. And then I would throw in, I think Trey Johnson's gonna go, I, I, I think you probably have can nipple two spots too high. I think I'd be surprised if he goes top five because I think Trey Johnson will be the other one that rises up. And I think teams will, and I say this, having the most can nipple stock. As we get closer to the draft, he's the type of guy teams start talking themselves out of because they go to the combine. So like, oh, man, this guy jumped 43 inches. Oh, now I have a fifth.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Start looking at those spreadsheets and talking to yourself.

• 1:00:23Bill Simmons?

  There's gonna be two guys that climb, right? And so can nipple will probably be in that seven to nine range would be my guess, which, by the way, some, some decent teams in there, including New Orleans, poor Brooklyn, by the way, not poor Brooklyn, because they, it was all self inflicted, but, you know, they, they, they were trying to tank more than anybody. Their coach was Dennis Schroder. They had these guys winning games early. They had, they had to get rid of guys, dump guys. And then ended up kind of in the vicinity of everybody else. And now they're eight. So not awesome. And then the other one was Houston, I guess, that had it, you know, had, was having dreams of maybe climbing up in the top four, but was not able to do that. All right, House. So it seems like we figured out who you want to draft.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  I love, I love it.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  The seven foot two guy?

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Yes. Out of all the possibilities that that would help soothe some of these wounds.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  He did suggest that we draw a butthole for the God, though. I just think people should know that. I don't know, House.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  No, no, it wasn't with respect to any particular player that may be there. My suggestion was there was an artistic rendering for sort of each player. And my recommendation to Kyle was for six, for Washington, for them falling there. Just take, do a pencil etching of my butthole. Just put that in there. You don't need the face of any.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I don't want the reference image for that. So, you know, I don't. I don't know.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Frank from White Lotus gets it.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Frank gets it. Angry, Bill, is this a normal thing is angry how he gets in the graph of of Joe being angry and his funniness, the lines just kind of go side by side.

• 1:01:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, usually there's drinks too. Yeah, if you're doing the house formula, there's probably some cocktails. Were there cocktails tonight?

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it's my birthday. It's for another forty five minutes.

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  Your birthday was today? I should probably have known that since we've been friends since nineteen eighty eight.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  We're old, man. We were good as middle aged. We don't be counting.

• 1:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Listen, we made it to another birthday house.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  I know. It's another excuse to go grab a couple of drinks. I'll tell you that much. And I did have a couple. And then and then I then I doubled when when I saw that we fell to six. But we're in good shape.

• 1:02:26Bill Simmons?

  For a birthday present, Adam Silver delivered the number six pick to house.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  He did a pencil etching of my butthole.

• 1:02:34Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're gonna pack it in. Thanks for thanks for joining me. Don't forget, I'm gonna be on Zach Lowe's podcast tomorrow. He's gonna talk about behind the scenes. He said it was pretty crazy as people were realizing what was happening with the balls. So I'll be on there tomorrow. Thanks to Gahal. Thanks to Eduardo as well. I really hope by some sort of miracle, Jason Tatum, it wasn't as bad as it seemed, but I guess we will find out tomorrow morning. Thanks to everybody who stayed on the YouTube stream as well. See you next time.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  Must be twenty one plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call one eight hundred GAMBLER or visit rg-help dot com. Call one eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccpg dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma dot org or call eight hundred three two seven fifty fifty for twenty four seven support in Massachusetts or call one eight seven seven eight hope NY or text hope NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wildhorse nine, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp weighted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner.

• 1:04:03Bill Simmons?

  Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.