#350 Mike Hayes - The Navy SEAL in Obama’s Situation Room During the Captain Phillips Rescue

Mike Hayes is a retired Navy SEAL commander, national security leader, and business executive. He spent 20 years in the SEALs, ultimately serving as commanding officer of SEAL Team TWO and leading a 2,000-person special operations task force in Afghanistan. He later served on the National Security Council for Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama where he worked on the START Treaty and led the White House response to the Maersk Alabama hijacking. Today, he is a Managing Director at Insight Partners and the bestselling author of Never Enough and Mission Driven. Hayes draws on his experience across combat, government, and business to speak on leadership, decision-making, and purpose. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Privacy Isn't Paranoia. It's Protection. https://theglacierapp.com Get firearm security redesigned and save 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code SRS at https://stopboxusa.com/SRS #stopboxpod All 8 episodes of The Terminal List Season 2 are out now, exclusively on Prime Video. Go to https://drinkag1.com/SRS and for a limited time, get a free Immune Support Bundle, including a bottle of Omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of Vitamin D3K2, with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. Find your forever cookware @hexclad and get 10% off at https://hexclad.com/SRS! #hexcladpartner Mike Hayes Links: Official Website - https://www.thisismikehayes.com The 1162 Foundation - https://givebutter.com/1162foundation Books: Mission Driven - https://a.co/d/09BklBVU Never Enough - https://a.co/d/0akzYknd Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisis.mikehayes X - https://x.com/thisismikehayes LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-hayes-733688 National Medal of Honor Museum - https://mohmuseum.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shawn Ryan?

  When we first started building the Sean Ryan Show storefront, we didn't have everything figured out. We had products, merch, ideas, and a growing audience. But turning that into something people could actually shop from and keep them coming back, that takes the right setup. And that's why we built it on Shopify. Shopify gives you what you need to start selling without having to piece a bunch of different systems together. You can build the storefront, manage products, take payments, track orders, and keep the business moving from one place. And if you're just getting started, you don't need to know everything on day one. Shopify makes it simple to launch your store and start selling in a few steps. They also have design templates and AI site building tools to help you get

• 0:45Shawn Ryan?

  the storefront looking right without starting from scratch. And once people are ready to buy, Shop Pay makes checkout fast and easy, which is huge. You don't want somebody ready to support your business and then lose them because you got a clunky checkout. I like Shopify's products so much, it's so simple, I had the CEO and founder Toby on my show. So if you've been sitting on an idea, waiting until you have it figured out, stop waiting. You can start simple, learn as you go, and build it from there. If you're ready to hear the "beep" of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com/SRS to start your free

• 1:24Shawn Ryan?

  trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.com/SRS. That's Shopify.com/SRS.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Into the wild, the Calteer Panther encounters a shimmering crocodile, a lonely lovebird, a breathless zebra, and a restless tiger.

• 1:55Shawn Ryan?

  Mike Hayes, welcome to the show.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Sean Ryan, pleasure to be here, my friend.

• 2:01Shawn Ryan?

  It's awesome to have you. So, we kinda, I guess we didn't really cross paths. I saw, I can't remember, I think it was in a New York magazine, and one that I had been in, and I saw, yeah, that's what it was. I saw a post on Instagram about a former SEAL officer who was paying off Gold Star wives mortgages. And I think I commented under it. And then about five minutes later, I guess we have mutual friend, Chris Fettis, texted me and said, "Oh, Mike Hayes is an awesome, he's a badass, he's awesome." And I was like, "Who is, who is Mike Hayes?" He's like, "That's the guy's, he's, you just commented under his thing." I said, "Oh, is this the guy that is paying off the Gold Star families'

• 2:45Shawn Ryan?

  houses and mortgages?" And he said, "Yeah." So, I called him up and we had a chat, and he said, "We should reach out." And so, amazing that you're doing that. I mean, incredible, incredible.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, Sean, first of all, thank you for all your incredible inspiration and impact you've had on me and on so many in this great nation. And the first thing I'd say is, clearly Chris Fettis doesn't know me then. So, but no, we've got so many mutual friends. I'm so close with so many of the people that have sat in this chair over the years, and thank you for all.

• 3:24Shawn Ryan?

  No, thank you for saying that. And yeah, we definitely missed each other by hair several different times in the teams. And yeah, it was pretty cool at dinner last night to hear all the places where we almost connected. And it's, it's just, it's an honor to have you here.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  No, it honors mine, really. Genuinely looking forward to this, man. This is gonna be fun.

• 3:48Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. And man, amazing careers, plural, and life arc. And we just have so much to cover, from business to the teams, leadership, your life. And so I'm gonna start you off with an introduction here. Mike Hayes, you're retired Navy SEAL commander and former commanding officer of SEAL Team Two, with a 20-year career spanning South America, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan. You've served at the White House under Presidents Bush and Obama, working on START Treaty or negotiations with Russia and the response to the Captain Phillips hijacking. You've commanded a 2,000-person Special Operations Task Force in Afghanistan

• 4:33Shawn Ryan?

  and previously served as deputy commander for Special Operations in Anbar Province, Iraq. After the military, you've worked for Bridgewater, became COO of VMware, and are now the managing director at Insight Partners with over $90 billion in regulatory assets under management. You're also the author of Never Enough and Mission Driven, and funded the 1162 Foundation to pay off mortgages for Gold Star families. And as I found out last night, and we talked on the phone, the Medal of Honor

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Museum.

• 5:07Shawn Ryan?

  Museum, and, which that place looks beautiful. I can't wait to see it someday. And, and so much more. So, once again, welcome to the show.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Sean, really. It's ready to jump in whichever direction you want to go.

• 5:23Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do it. Well, I got a gift for you first.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  I might know what it is.

• 5:27Shawn Ryan?

  What is it?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Dummy bears?

• 5:29Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I do know.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Amazing. Thank you.

• 5:33Shawn Ryan?

  Got some dummy bears. And I got something else. So, you know, what do you give a guy like yourself who has access to pretty much everybody and everything? So I think I got something.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  This is exciting already. Feel like a kid on Christmas morning.

• 5:54Shawn Ryan?

  So you can't get one of these?

• 5:59Shawn Ryan?

  Unless you come here.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I'm thrilled to be here. So, I'm out of here now, man. Let's go hit the range.

• 6:05Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. So, yeah, let me know what you think. Pick it up. So that is a Sig Sauer P385. That's not even, that, the only one of those that is outside the factory is right here. Nobody knows about it yet. It's not been released. It's not for sale. I don't know when it's going up for sale, but that's the newest, that's the newest design.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Wow. Yeah, and as a New Hampshire resident, this is super meaningful. I'm looking forward to getting over to Sig with you. I know you pop up there from time to time, but love to, love to visit over there. Thank you so much. This is amazing.

• 6:45Shawn Ryan?

  My pleasure, my pleasure. And you know, just one thing, like, we're talking about

• 6:53Shawn Ryan?

  giving back, paying it forward, a lot of that kind of stuff at dinner last night. And one thing I love about this company, other than the firearms that they manufacture, is

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  they just always back me. Like, we were talking about the roadblocks thing, you know, earlier, and the letter that Schlepp's mother sent me. And I don't know if you watched that episode or not, but he screen recorded the fact that they have reenacted every active shooter event in the US. And you can go in there and kill the avatars of the kids that were killed in Sandy Hook, Uofalvi, and they actually put their names above the victims. And they were using Sig firearms. So I called my buddy Jason, and he got legal involved to yank all that shit out of the game. And then another thing that they did that I think

• 7:47Shawn Ryan?

  is really cool is there's a, there's a sheriff's department that's adjacent to this county here.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  I've heard you talk about their donation.

• 7:56Shawn Ryan?

  Tennessee. And they have like no funding, massive meth problem, their firearms are shit. They're all, it's just hodgepodge stuff. It's like 20, 25 years old. And I have a friend who runs a SWAT team over there. And he was telling me about this. It just enraged me. So I called my buddy Jason of Sig up and told him about this. And I was like, "Look, I don't know if you guys have anything laying around that's like old stock, but I'll buy it and I'll give it to them. Just give it to me, you know, at, at, at your cost." And he was like, "Yeah, no problem. Give me a couple of days." And so he called me back and he's like, "Well, we're not gonna do old stock crap." But he goes, "We're gonna do these brand new AR rifles. We're gonna put suppresses on them. We're gonna put optics

• 8:41Shawn Ryan?

  on them. We're gonna kit them out, lights, everything, and outfit the whole SWAT team with them." And I was like, "Dude, that's fucking awesome. Like, that's just cool." You know what I mean? Like, just one phone call, done.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are the people you just want to be around, right? That's amazing.

• 8:58Shawn Ryan?

  It's good business. It's good, it's good, good. It's a, it's a good wholesome business that gives a shit about people. And so, I love them.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if I can ever be helpful there, say the word. And hopefully, maybe he'll be listening. So, but it sounds like, I always say, you know, we have Americans and Americans. He sounds like an American.

• 9:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. So anyways.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Well, I've got something for you.

• 9:22Shawn Ryan?

  Oh.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Can I, it's not nearly as nice, but as, as you mentioned, I wrote, wrote two books. And I never wanted to be an author. We can talk about this later on. But I donate all the profits from, from my books to the charity I started that has now paid off 12 Gold Star Widow mortgages. I get overpaid to speak in public from time to time in the corporate world, and just donate every penny. I've never profited from these books. And they've both been bestsellers. This debuted as number four in the world. This is a personal note. I'm not gonna read on air, but I'd love to read this one to you if I could. Sean, thank you, brother, for helping so many great Americans find purpose and meaning. Isaiah 6:8, "Whom shall I send? Here I am, Lord. Send me." God bless you always, Mike.

• 10:07Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 10:11Shawn Ryan?

  Appreciate that.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Thank you, brother.

• 10:12Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you. All right. You ready to get into it?

• 10:17Speaker 02

  It's rock.

• 10:19Shawn Ryan?

  So as a SEAL with SEAL Team Four,

• 10:24Shawn Ryan?

  you told me a story last night about being held at gunpoint, maybe hostage down in Peru. I would like to start right there.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 10:34Shawn Ryan?

  What was that about?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's, let's jump in my, so BUDS class 192 graduated in, in 94. First SEAL Team was SEAL Team Four. You know, took a, I don't know, a year, year and a half, whatever it was to get on my first deployment. It was down, downrange and bouncing around the different countries in South America. Landed in a three, four week exchange training event with the Peruvian SEALs. Great guys, you know, and, um, in those days, the Shining Path, Sendero Luminoso, was the terrorist organization. And the Peruvian SEALs had captured a guy named Guzman, who was the leader of the, the Shining Path. And so the Peruvian SEALs were being somewhat, you know, targeted. And we were training this, those Peruvian, that unit on, on how to be better.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Uh, we were traveling in like a squad size. It was seven or eight guys. The second half of the trip was down to Iquitos, Peru, which is in, on an offshoot of the Amazon River, down, down deep in the jungle. But myself and a friend named Ken, the LPO of my platoon stayed back because we need, in Lima, to outbrief with the, um, the embassy just for a couple, a couple of hours. And we were like, we'll just go join you guys in Iquitos. We'll see you there in a couple of days. So we were, dude, we were just eating in a, I remember it was a Tony Roma's, uh, you know, restaurant and driving a really nice big SUV. And, uh, we weren't armed. We were just minding our own business. I was driving and got immediately pinned in by, by cop cars.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Like, like, and, and you remember third phase of BUDS, you learn what's the elements of a successful ambush? It's a surprise, superior firepower and violence of action. Man, they had all three. And so outjumped what, what guys dressed as cops. And I was like, oh, these, these guys have us confused for somebody else. Put my hands up and so they wouldn't think I was reaching for anything. I had nothing to reach for. But, um, first guy opens the, the, uh, the door to the vehicle. And, and this was, I still can see this in my, in slow motion, but finger on the trigger, weapon off safe. You know, like a Belgian FNFAO kind of 762 rifle. He muzzle strokes me behind my ear and in my head. And, um, and I was like, whoa, this is not the police.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  And, uh, and the only thing we could do at that point was like, just comply and act like this happens all the time. And hey, we know you guys get the vehicle and, and, and we get to live.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  They put Ken in the way back of the, of the SUV, uh, me in the, in the, the middle row. And started driving us around the city and interrogating us. I'm fluent in Spanish. And, um, and I, I just was thinking to myself, the only thing we could do is to act like I would want a victim of mine to act if I were them. And so kind of falling back immediately on, on the training that we had and thinking, okay, don't look at them, don't compromise them and don't make it necessary for them to kill us. Uh, they'd say, hey, what are you doing here? And I'm like, uh, somos economistas, you know, we're, we're economists, we're desk workers. We're working at the embassy, you know, like we have nothing to do with the Peruvian SEALs.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Basically every answer was like the answer that would like make them not need to kill us. Drove us around the city for like an hour and it was, I mean, they were threatening us with torture, execution, you know, like all kinds, just the worst things you could, you could, you'd want to hear about what, what your, the end of your life would be. And, um, and I just remember thinking,

• 14:03Speaker 02

  yeah, I, I'm prepared to die, but I, I was just thinking about, I was engaged at the time, thinking about my fiance, thinking about my, my immediate family and, and, and legit in a near death situation. There came a point, Sean, where the vehicle slowed down to maybe 20 or 25 miles an hour. I had an easy opportunity to jump out of the vehicle and save my life. And I super vividly remember thinking, I could never live with myself if I jumped out of this vehicle and they killed my friend Ken. So, you know, we'll come, come back to that in the, in a minute. But they continued to drive us around and they got, came to a point where we were deep in a dark neighborhood and they brought us out at gunpoint. And, um, I was like, okay, our bodies are either going to be in the side of the ditch.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  And this is all pre, obviously pre-cell phone, you know, nobody was going to know where we were. And, um, you know, one of the lessons that I learned was, you know, be missed. And I was already thinking like, we're, we're not going to be missed. No, the, the rest of the guys will know we didn't show up, but they're not going to know where we are. You know, they won't know that we're missing for 48 hours. And so, um, you know, we, um, basically I said, hey, Ken, let's just keep walking. You know, we just kept, put as much, my, my mindset was the longer the shot for them, the more chance there is of it, of, of it, you know, just injuring me instead of killing me instantly. And so we just walked forward really fast. And I was like, it's either going to be now or never. And we got lucky, we jumped behind a tree and, um, and, uh, those guys jumped back in the car and they drove off and they stole the vehicle and, um,

• 15:30Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think they let you go?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  I think they determined that we weren't a threat or, or, you know, I, uh, you know, I, my, my fiance gave me this nice St. Christopher medal that said, you know, safe in my heart always. And, um, you know, I've, I've always grown up, you know, guardian angels or, you know, prayer or whatnot. I mean, I think, you know, maybe the, maybe the big man upstairs still had more for me to do, you know, at, and, and it just wasn't my time. I, I don't really have a good answer to that question. Um, other than the fact that, you know, those guys just determined we weren't actually training the Peruvian SEALs and they didn't need to kill us. But what happened, we learned later, the day, the next day, that this happened to another woman

• 16:14Speaker 02

  on the streets, uh, driving on the same streets. And she freaked out and they just killed her and they shoved her body out of the, out of the car, onto the street. And, um, and they, they took the car. So, um, I, I, I don't know. It was a, it was a real, a real, like, I don't think I really knew what's, what happened, like really thought about what happened until later, just like any team guy. Uh, you know, you, you finish some hard thing and you don't think about what could have happened in the moment. You know, you just never do, that's not how we're wired. And, um, I, I really feel in many ways fortunate to know at a very young age that at the, potentially at the expense of my own life, I wouldn't leave my swim buddy.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  And, and, and I'm, I just wouldn't, that's just not who I am. And a lot of people can say that, but I got to learn that about myself at a young age.

• 17:11Shawn Ryan?

  It's 3:00 AM. You hear a noise in the house and in that moment, you do not want to be fumbling around, looking for keys, hoping a battery still works or trying to figure out a plan for the first time. That's exactly why I like StopBox. The StopBox Pro gives you a way to safely store your firearm while still keeping it accessible when you actually need it. It's completely mechanical, so there are no batteries and no keys. And the five-button interface is designed around muscle memory. So you can open it fast with one hand while still keeping others out. What I like is it gives you a practical middle ground. You're being responsible about storage, but you're not making access complicated in a situation where seconds matter.

• 17:52Shawn Ryan?

  StopBox is also made in the USA and they've got a new StopBox UCAN, which uses the same mechanical locking system, but gives you more room for your firearm, ammo and other gear. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at StopBox when you use code SRS at checkout. Head to StopBoxUSA.com and use code SRS for 10% off your entire order. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  He destroyed three Flock cameras. Concerns regarding automated license plate readers are on the rise.

• 18:32Shawn Ryan?

  Whether you know it or not, Flock had crossed 100,000 active cameras, the largest surveillance network in the country. The surveillance footprint isn't shrinking, it's just rebranding. In Evanston, Illinois, the city ordered its Flock cameras removed entirely. Flock quietly reinstalled the cameras anyway. What if you have a drone just hovering over your residence at all hours of the day surveilling you?

• 19:04Shawn Ryan?

  We're already sighting a number north of 120,000. Most of these cities aren't dropping license plate readers, they're switching vendors. Growth and revolt happening in the same news cycle.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  You have plans to continue to take down these Flock units?

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Absolutely. No, absolutely. They are a clear and present threat to public safety.

• 19:24Shawn Ryan?

  That tension is the real story here. Not a company in collapse, but a company facing its first serious wave of customer backlash. At the exact moment, it's also hitting its biggest growth milestone ever.

• 19:55Shawn Ryan?

  How many near-death experiences do you think you've had?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  It just depends how you count. I mean, I don't really, I, I, um, you know, on, in my 2007 Iraq deployment, you know, there, there were something like 35 Marines killed in the first 30 days that we were there. And I wasn't, to be clear, like, you've had a lot of operators who've sat here and gone on way more hairier missions, done way more than me. I was an officer that, yeah, I did seven deployments of six months or more and was always at SEAL teams. But, man, I'm an, I, I haven't done anything compared to so many of these guys who have sat in this chair. But, um, but I've also done some things, you know? And, uh, and so, like, in Iraq, I made it a point to go out on the ops, maybe every third or fourth day. The guys didn't need me on any op. They didn't need me at

• 20:44Speaker 02

  all. But if I'm gonna be, you know, the, at the time, the executive officer of a SEAL team and be the deputy commander of all the special forces in Anbar Province, Iraq, like, man, like, I can't sit behind my desk the whole time. That's not, how do you lead people like that, you know? And, and so, um, that, like, how do you count those types of situations? In Afghanistan, when I was commander there, there, these vehicle-borne IEDs were driving through gates and just blowing themselves up. And there's so much explosives that you just don't even know you got vaporized. And so, I mean, I've got videos that I took just for the fun of it, sitting in the front seat of Humvees in Afghanistan, where it's like, man, it looks like nuclear bombs went off on the road. I know a lot of people who

• 21:25Speaker 02

  listen to your, to this platform, will have the same experience of riding over roads that could just instantly vaporize you. And I've done that so many times, you just think to yourself, like, will I even know that I died? But, uh, you know, I've, I, I, I've, I've, I mean, I could, I could-

• 21:43Shawn Ryan?

  Reason I'm asking is I'm just curious, you know, is there a commonality about the, you know, for you? I know for me there are, but it has changed over the years. And, and, and, and what goes through your head, you know, at the moment that you think, like, you do, and it sounds like in your mind, when you were taken hostage, and they muscle stroked your head, that you're pretty certain this is, this is how it ends?

• 22:11Speaker 02

  I thought that was how, I thought it was, yeah.

• 22:14Shawn Ryan?

  So what, was it the same the next time it happened?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  You know, let me come back and answer that for a split second, because I think I had maybe two or three weeks after that, I was like, man, if that didn't get me, I'm freaking invincible. Like, there's nothing that's gonna get me. And it's funny, there was another new guy in a sister platoon that was in a helicopter crash on our, on our deployment. And, and I remember talking to him and saying, like, hey, like, he thought he was gonna be at his end. And, and he had the same experience of, like, man, if that didn't get me nothing, well, and I think, you know, I don't want to say you, you feel invincible, but you just feel like, um, like, you just compartmentalize. And so I think all of us in the line of business, not just SEALs, anybody in the military, you just get really damn good at compartmentalizing. And, uh, and so, I think that, you know, in this

• 23:03Speaker 02

  particular instance with the hijacking, yeah, dude, I, I thought I was gone. However, I also will, like, never, never give up without a fight. The, the, a lot of people said, gosh, it's too bad you weren't armed. Honestly, if we were armed, I'd be, wouldn't be here. Like, there's no question in my mind that if we were armed, they'd be like, why were you guys armed? It actually, probably the only reason we're here is because we weren't armed. And it's funny, there's a policy from the embassy that we disagreed so strongly with at the time, that was, you don't ride around on the streets armed. And we, we disagreed with that policy. And honestly, it probably saved my life.

• 23:39Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, interesting. You know, um, we were gonna talk about the Christian Craighead interview last night, you know, and it sounds, you had listened to it. And in his interview, one of the victims, you know, that he saved, came on. And to hear, I, I've never heard, I talked about this with him, but I'd never heard that kind of a perspective, where it's, you know, the bomb goes off, you hear the shooting start, this, you shut down. And she, her name's Mailey, and she shut down. And, you know, just, that was it. She couldn't think, you know, she called, she called, like, a number, you know, from Google, like, it's like a crisis hotline or some shit like that. But,

• 24:24Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, wasn't really able to clearly think. And, and, you know, I, I, I just, it was interesting to hear that perspective, because I'm so used to perspectives like, you're, I'm not gonna give up without a fight. We're, we're gonna figure out a way to take as many of these people out with us, or to get out of this entire thing, and to win. And I've been in multiple situations where I, I thought I was never gonna come out the other end alive. But there's still, like, a, a planning process that goes, that goes through your head. And, and all the contingency plans, and all the what-ifs, and everything. And I, I think that, I don't know, it's just, I guess what I'm saying is

• 25:07Shawn Ryan?

  just, it, it, it, when I heard her talking, I was like, holy shit, this is, this is actually a rarity. Like, I've never talked to, and I, and she is the majority-

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:18Shawn Ryan?

  -of humanity.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, the rarity is actually guys like us, who don't shut down. And so, like, what happened to me in, in those moments when I had, you know, my head down and gun at my head, and, and Ken behind me couldn't understand any Spanish, I wanted to make sure he complied. And so what I did was, I explained to the, the, there were one, two, three guys in my, three, I'll say, you know, dirt, more than dirty cops, but, uh, in my vehicle that had us captive. And I, I explained that I needed to translate for Ken so that he could comply. And as I translated, I took a gamble, I figured they wouldn't speak English. And I, I'd say, hey, Ken, they want you to turn around and, and spin the other way, and four, three, four, three thousand, embassy switchboard. You know, and, and I, that's a real number. Like, it's still, like, it was in my head from, it'll be in

• 26:02Speaker 02

  my head forever. Like, because when you're going out, you're like, what are your contingency plans? And so I did these little, like, plain English data bursts, and we set rally points around the, around the, the city. So if we got separated, we'd know where to look for each other. Again, pre-cell phone, pre-easy comms, you know? And so, like, those little things that you can do are the way that guys like, like, I say, it's not because we're special, it's just because we got trained really well, and we got to be around guys that were incredibly capable, and we learned from them, you know, so-

• 26:34Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think that comes from training, or do you think people are born with that mindset?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  I, you know, the nature versus nurture question's a good one. I think it's a little both. I think of it like this. I, um, I think we all have some kind of, like, cone of possible, like, outcomes we can become in the world. And then training puts us on the steepest part of that, like, possibility. You know, I, it's like, I think you have to have some God-given ability in order to have multiple thoughts at the same time, to, to be able to weigh risk and options, and, and to, um, and to stay calm, you know, calm breeds calm, excitement breeds excitement, you know, and, and those things, like, but then, a lot of it is also the training that you go through. Like,

• 27:21Speaker 02

  it's funny, because in Iraq, I remember jumping out of a building that was rigged to explode. And I was next to a friend, Josh, um, there were maybe 14 of us or so, roughly, in this house. And we got the, over the, the comms came avalanche, avalanche, avalanche, you know, and that was our, our call sign at the time for, for HBID, houseborne, i.e. improvised explosive device, because the tactics and techniques and procedures of the enemy at the time were blowing up entire houses. Like, bait, bait a force into the house and blow it up. And so when we heard that call, we were like, oh my, like, that's a call you don't mess around with. And, um, so I was kinda halfway up the first and the second, um, the stairwell, halfway up the stairwell, window right

• 28:03Speaker 02

  next to us, this guy Josh, Josh Cox and I, I don't know if you listened, but we dove out the same window, we landed on the ground, and, and you don't feel an ounce of pain when you're going through that. And we landed, and our feet were crossed, and our mouths were open, like dirt, like the whistle drills that you do in Hell Week. And we're just like, like, we were waiting for the explosion, and we're like, our Hell Week training kinda kicked in, and you're just like, we just started laughing. We're just like, like, the ones the house didn't blow up, we were like, dude, we're like kids in BUDs right now, you know? Uh, but I think that training really always stays deep in you.

• 28:35Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and then, I just, I wanna ask you this, I mean, being able to devise a plan and operate under that kind of pressure, I mean, how do you think that has carried into your business career? It's, I mean, I think about it, and I, I didn't, I guess what I'm, I'm just now kinda starting to realize that that mindset is not very common. And so, just for me and my business-

• 29:03Shawn Ryan?

  Whatever crisis comes, like I, I, I see a lot of people and they just shut down. They're, they're like, they cancel the day, they cancel the week, they think it's over like, and I can't go to sleep until I come up with 10 different plans. All right. Like whatever the crisis is, somebody walks out, we're getting sued, like advertisers will leave. I know whatever it is, you know what I mean? And some of these crises, I mean, I'm sure you dealt with probably way worse than I have a business. But it's like, it's, it can be debilitating and, and, and, and I think it all comes from like, being in those type of situations where it's like, well, I'm not, we're going to find a way out of it.

• 29:47Shawn Ryan?

  We're going to find multiple avenues that could be ways out of this. And we're just going to start going through it one by one until we figure out which one works.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  I, I think that's, um, it's because guys like you, you're a doer, you know, you're, you're, I, I think the world has doers and beers, you know? Beer is just like the title and like the response, like, like the responsibility, but not the actual work. And the reason you've built such success is because you're a doer, you know? And so the doer can't go to sleep without thinking of the contingencies, making the list, coming up with a plan, you know? And, and I think that, uh, that's, that's just inherent in, in successful people. You can't sit still and rest until you kind of have things back in order. So I, I think a, a really good analogy is thinking back on our, our shared training and SEAL training. You know, it's like, what did the instructors do? They stretched us past our limits and made us comfortable.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  They stretched us past our limits again and made us comfortable. And the limits that we live with, that we're capable of keep stretching. And this is true of probably any military training. I'm just using SEAL training as an example. But you know, you, you keep stretching your limits and people, when you, like, when I speak in public, people are like, oh yeah, I get it. Your limits get, get stretched more and more. And I'm like, yeah, true, but that's not the big deal. The big deal is that you get used to working outside your comfort zone in a way that you have, you can't pattern match the situation you're in with anything else. But you, your, your value system is one where you become quickly calm. Because you know, you're going to have a better solution if you're calm. You know, you're, you're going to think about all the multiple possibilities of, of, of what's in front of you. You're going to have clarity around what is success.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  You know, I think like one of the, the, the biggest challenges for people is they don't, they can't define success. So when you're in a crisis, people kind of flock to activity. And, and I, I always say never confuse outcomes with activity. You know, people feel good when they take activity and make inaction. But sometimes like, are you taking the right activity or action? There was a grad school professor of mine who said, you know, stuck with me, obviously. Mike, beware of fast trains to the wrong station. You know, it's like, do you slow down and say, okay, I'm really going to create clarity around what success looks like in this moment? And then the activities, do they, are they the highest and best use in order to achieve that outcome? And I think that, that is in business, like the exact same as combat.

• 32:10Shawn Ryan?

  Well put, well put. Well, what got you interested in the SEAL teams to begin with?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Wow. Um, first of all, my grandfather was Naval Academy class of 40 and of a career naval officer. And I grew up with a hero in my family, you know, and he was at Pearl Harbor the day it happened. Uh, he was the, the, the first heli, the, the commanding officer of the first helicopter squadron in the Navy. Like my grandfather was just the man, you know? And, you know, he, he was, um, he was on the USS Maryland. Actually, we've got time, these are pretty long interviews, but the quick version is on Sunday morning when they got bombed. He, like a good, you know, Irish Catholic drinking family, like he was, you know, 24 years old or whatever, 23. And woke up in some, you know, Quonset hut with seven of his buddies.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  And, and wave one had hit, um, and then he commandeered a jeep in order to, to try and try to rally his friends to get back to their battle stations. And only one of them would jump in the jeep with them. Everybody else stayed in the Quonset hut off base and because there was some big, you know, dance and drinking thing the night before. And, uh, and, and he told me that the, the scariest thing of Pearl Harbor that day for him was driving past the marine gate guard at like 40 miles an hour without stopping. He was like, please don't shoot me, you know? And so, uh, he made it back to his ship for the second wave. And during the second wave, he was getting back, he was in charge of, of, of one of the turrets on the Maryland. And, uh, and he was there for the third wave and, um, and

• 33:46Speaker 02

  after that was over, he said, you know, I'm in the wrong line of business. I need to get up there and become a pilot. He put in for flight school and then, you know, they cranked him through flight, flight school. And I don't know, it was like three months or something like that. Went to the Aleutians three months later. Now it's like 1945 ish or something, um, 44. And, um,

• 34:09Speaker 02

  his commanding officer got shot down. And so at, at a very young age, he became the commanding officer of a 35 plane bomber squadron, flying and bombs out of the Aleutians and, and dropping them on the Japanese. In the days of like the, the bomber can carry like two 500 pound bombs, you know? And, and so anyways, growing up with my grandfather was a real amazing influence. He never once said, Mike, go join the Navy, not once. Uh, my father was a career naval officer and he was a, a supply officer who got, whose first duty station was on a submarine. And he got qualified as a regular engineering officer, the watch, uh, officer of the deck. And so he was a, they don't do this anymore, but he was a sup, sup, supply officer with like normal dolphins.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  And so he kind of had a mixed career over time of different, different roles. And so I just grew up knowing what service meant. Uh, I'm the oldest of four, four kids. And I just, I was just aware that there was an ROTC scholarship that was out there and it would pay for college. And I thought, you know, you know, anybody in the military, you're like some middle-class family in Newport, Rhode Island. Like save, save the money if I can get the scholarship so my siblings can go to college. And I started in ROTC from day one at Holy Cross in, in Worcester, Mass. And, uh, we, you know, and this is 1989, I'm class of 93 undergrad. And so in 1989, as, as you well know, uh, we invaded Panama and we lost four SEALs on the runway in, in Patia.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  So as a freshman, they, there was a, a ceremony in the church on campus to, uh, to recognize John Connors, who was a Lieutenant JG SEAL killed on the runway. And he was a, a part of the Holy Cross ROTC unit. He went to Worcester Polytech as his college, but he did ROTC at Holy Cross because that's where the unit was. And, uh, man, I was like some 170 pound, six foot four, like couldn't do, you know, freshman who could maybe do half of a push-up and no pull-ups. You know, and I, I, I just saw the SEAL community come together and honor one of its own and, and honor the family. And I was just like really moved.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  And so I just thought that's really a, an amazing community, but never did I think I could even ever become a SEAL. Uh, there was a Reader's Digest article that came out, it was called The Measure of a Man. It's about John Connors. Uh, it's worth, worth a quick read. It's a quick read. But, um, so like from, so from freshman year on, that's how I got exposed to the SEALs. And remember again, this is pre-internet, there's like one book out, it's Rogue Warrior from Marenko, you know? And like, there's nothing else out there as opposed to, you know, all these other guys you write, random guys that write books. But, uh, uh, you know, as I aged through, through college, the summer between junior and senior year

• 36:59Speaker 02

  in ROTC, you have to do these like summer cruises to three weeks of, of, you know, play Navy for a, a real Navy person for three weeks. And so between junior and senior year, I did three weeks on an aircraft carrier with an A6 squadron. I got to fly off the carrier and, uh, you know, a couple of times, like, you know, picked up the plane, the, the ship in like Naples, Italy and left from like Mallorca or something like some crazy, you know, super fun college-y, you know, trip and two catapult shots off the carrier. And I was like, man, Top Gun had recently been out. So it was like free drinks everywhere. And I was, I was like, man, this is the life. I'm going to be a pilot. Um, but then I also that summer did mini BUDs, which was a three-week kind of exposure to BUDs.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  And then I had to decide that, that, that was an optional, uh, optional summer cruise. And, and I became perversely attracted to the challenge of the man versus man problem. As opposed to the man versus machine problem of being a pilot. And so I just was like, man, I really want to lean in and be the best human I can be. And I think that path is SEAL training. And I just worked my ass off, like just to be the kid that could at least, I think I did 12 pull-ups at my max or something like that. I, I could swim and run real fast and do all that stuff, but man, like I am not God's gift to the pull-up bar. And, uh, and so I put in and I, I think it was one of, it was like 12 or 14 officers that were picked from ROTC that year.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And then classed up with class 192 with a, um, bunch of guys. And then one of 19 graduates out of the class of 120, just like same, same as all of us, just put your head down and get through.

• 38:37Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. One of 19 graduates?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, our class got 19 original from the class of 190, class 192.

• 38:44Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Wow. Of course we had the hardest class, Sean.

• 38:51Shawn Ryan?

  So then you show up to, you get through training and you go to SEAL Team Four?

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:56Shawn Ryan?

  Go to Peru?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:57Shawn Ryan?

  And then next one is a UCOM, right?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Next thing I do is, is um, leave, uh, I go to DLI for nine months for German and I get stationed at Naval Special Warfare Unit Two for a, a staff tour actually between my AOIC and OIC tour. I kinda made that choice because at the time, as an officer, you only got to deploy twice. You got to be in AOIC once and OIC once, and that was it. Of course, pre nine eleven, you know, there was, like, you got two operational roles. So my thought process was, I want to be the best possible platoon commander I can be. So two years more of experience, kinda seeing things where the platoons deploy and come over to Stuttgart, Germany and, and see how they get employed. I'm just gonna grow and learn and I'll be a better platoon commander. And so

• 39:42Speaker 02

  I um, I uh, I did that and that was around the time of, you know, Bosnia, Kosovo and, and while the SEAL platoons came over and went in, you know, Dam Neck was doing those, the Pifwick snatches, the persons indicted for war crimes. And, you know, the, the regular teams were sometimes supporting operations like that. And so I was exposed to, to that theater and, and it just made me a better platoon commander. So that was, you know, two years of, of, of hard work, but also some really fun travel with my, my at the time new wife, uh, you know, got married in ninety six. And so we've been, we're coming up on thirty years this year. And um, and uh, you know, it was great because you hit Prague, you hit France, you hit, you know, it was a really, really fun two-year tour.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  And then went to SEAL Team Eight in uh, in ninety-nine after that.

• 40:28Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, so do, what did your parents think when you joined the SEAL teams or when you wanted to go?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Supportive, like immediately supportive, immediately supportive. And I don't think, because there's not a lot, there was not a lot of um, available media about what it really is. I think it probably kept my mom from worrying a little bit. I would imagine that moms and dads these days probably worry more, a little bit more about their kids joining the SEAL teams than, than the generation than when I came in. Um, but no, they were, they were immediately supportive of, of, of service.

• 41:02Shawn Ryan?

  What did your parents do?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  My dad, uh, twenty years in the, in the Navy. He retired in Newport. Uh, my mom got her masters as a, a psychologist, as a um, a counselor. So she has her masters in uh, social work and she's been a counselor for many, many years now, so.

• 41:19Shawn Ryan?

  Where you guys today?

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Very, we're a very tight family.

• 41:21Shawn Ryan?

  How about your, yeah, your, your siblings too?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're a tight family. It's, it's uh, we moved around a lot. And so, you know, um, it's, you know, just the military families, when you land in a new area, you kinda get really good at, at number one, being tight with your family. But number two, also,

• 41:41Speaker 02

  you know, wel- welcoming others when they move and hopefully being welcomed when you move. Cause these highly transitory areas that we moved to were just like, you, you had to become friends quickly or you didn't have friends. So it was a very um, a very uh, high EQ kind of like upbringing.

• 42:02Shawn Ryan?

  So you move over to SEAL Team Eight?

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:05Shawn Ryan?

  What are you doing there?

• 42:07Speaker 02

  First job was to, to, to be a platoon commander. And, and uh, you know, that was preparing for a, a deployment to Kosovo and did the standard kinda workup thing and deployed to Kosovo. Again, this is all obviously pre nine eleven. And at the time, you know, we had a, a great, great deployment. Toward the end of that workup, I was already starting to think, okay, what will I do after this platoon? Because the officer career path kinda turns into like all staff guys and, and whatnot afterward. And I was like, do I want to stay in? Do I want to get out? What do I want to do? And uh, you know, I screened for Dam Neck because that was the, the coolest, like, that's where, that's where, if you want to

• 42:48Speaker 02

  do anything, that's where it's at. And, and I still remember, uh, I screened positive out of a, a decent number of guys that screened. And there was a guy, uh, I just remember Commander Sullivan. I don't even know his first name and I don't even really know the guy. But he called me and said, hey, Mike, congrats. You're one of, you know, three or four officers we're gonna bring over for Green Team. And uh, I said, great, I have a little bit of an issue. My deployment like takes me four weeks after Green Team starts. I'm gonna try to get home in time. You know, ask my commanding officer of SEAL Team Eight if I can come home just a few, few weeks early from deployment so I can make Green Team. And he said, great, let me know. It's non-negotiable, you know, and uh, and uh, George Coleman, who, who I think the world of, was the commander of SEAL Team Eight. And uh, he wouldn't let

• 43:29Speaker 02

  me come home early. And uh, and so I, my, my, my Dam Neck path was immediately closed. And it was super frustrating. Um,

• 43:37Shawn Ryan?

  You think the world of the guy that wouldn't let you go home early to go?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Well, I thought, I thought the world of him. Sorry, I should've used the past tense. Um, I, I was extremely frustrated that um, that he wouldn't let me come home. But you know, I, I kind of, I try not to dwell on such things. When, when you want something really bad, there's often a reason, you know? And so I try to just stay mature and grounded with the whole, like, there's a plan and, and I just can't see it right now. But, you know, there's, there's a, you know, so I just like, okay, what, what are my options? And what am I gonna do? I came home and, and, and this, and he said, listen, Mike, here's the deal. We're gonna reorganize here in the teams and all, for officers, we're gonna start doing something called um, Task Force Commanders. They were later called Troop Commanders,

• 44:22Speaker 02

  but we're, you can be in charge of two SEAL platoons. And so, do you want to do another deployment? You can do the whole workup and a deployment being in charge of two platoons. And I was like, okay, that sounds, that's the next best thing. And um, and so I got, I stayed at SEAL Team Eight for five years and did, did two cycles there.

• 44:39Shawn Ryan?

  Well, hold on. So before we go home, what were you guys doing in Kosovo?

• 44:43Speaker 02

  We were doing three-day SR options, Special Reconnaissance options. And so, our, our operations, we had three units there. It was two SEAL units and then the Ranger Recon detachment. And what we would do is, you, you did a three days, uh, first of all, the, the mission was enforcing the Dayton Peace Accords and, and capturing information about whether the, the um, agreed um, conditions were being met on the ground. And so, you know, we were, we were in a sector, obviously, remember we had, you know, um, you, you basically had Albanians and, and um, and effectively Serbians that were all, you know, mixing it up in Kosovo. And the Dayton Peace Accords kinda put people back on their sides and say,

• 45:28Speaker 02

  hey, hey, everybody, like, get back in your corners and, and stop messing with each other and, and let's create some peace. But there were a lot of like little skirmishy kinda things that were going on. And in fact, so, so these, we, we would, you know, go out in the, the, the middle of the winter and, and these, you know, negative, what are her, crazy cold conditions and just basically lay around and take pictures and, and for like three days straight. A lot of times you saw nothing. It's a very unglorious mission. But then sometimes when you saw things, it was really, really strategic information. You know, we um, had one operation where, uh, well, before I get to that, let me just explain the flow. You had a three-day mission where you're the, the, you're the team in

• 46:10Speaker 02

  the field that's doing the thing, you know? And then you had a QRF. So there's another, you, and then there was like an, an off cycle. So you just rotated between three days. You were on for three days, you were QRF for three days, you were off for three days. And that cycle just kept going non-stop. And uh, and so among, and, and, and, you know, my, my SEAL platoon was both, you know, the, the infield SR unit and then the QRF. So, and then we, and then the, and then the Rangers. And we all supported each other as if we were just one big unit. And um, and it, and it went great. We had one particular operation where we uh, we were right on the border and we observed, the, the quick version is,

• 46:53Speaker 02

  we observed the Russians transferring arms to illegally and we got pictures of it. And this is early, early, early in the day of like night photography and near, near instant, like satellite image transfer. And we were sending images back of, of what, of this illegal arms transfer from the Russians to the, the Serb, effectively Serbians and the Kosovo Serbians, basically. And that's, that's, it wasn't supposed to be happening. We were kitted out for a, a special reconnaissance mission, not a direct action mission, you know, just as well as anybody. When you're, you have a hundred and ten pound pack, you're not gonna go fight. And this um, this uh, we called, we called it in and this major,

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Army Major who was in charge of kind of all of the special operations in, in Kosovo, uh, was, was back and said, hey, continue mission, you know? And, and uh, and uh, we were like, yeah, no problem. Of course, we're gonna continue mission. We're not, you know, we're, we're gonna keep taking pictures. And then all of a sudden,

• 47:55Speaker 02

  What happened is he said, I'm going to send in another, a special forces unit to come in and action the target. And we're like, we're like doing SR like extremely close to that target. You can't mix those, you know, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna call like, we need it, we need a better plan. And, you know, these guys came in, banged up the target, broke windows, you know, did searches. They didn't find anybody. The Russians were already long gone, but the, the, the Serbians in the morning, when they woke up, they realized they'd been hit. And the reason we were in the still in the field was because I had to make a really hard decision. That major said, continue mission. And I, I remember typing back on the, on the computer, actually. And I said, hey, we have in the SEALs a saying,

• 48:38Speaker 02

  if you think you've been compromised, assume you have. And if you have, exfil. And he said, Roger, copy, continue mission. And I was like, you know, this is like a Trident board question. Like when you have a mission that you know you shouldn't do, you've got higher authority saying, do it, what do you do? And what I did was I just kind of consulted the five guys I was in the field with. We had two guys at one operating outpost, two guys at another, and then myself and a comms guy, a little bit like we were not, myself and the comms guy were not eyes on target. And, and we had internal comms. And I said, hey, guys, like the, they're telling us to continue mission. What do we want to do? Well, I'll get us out of here and over and not follow orders if

• 49:21Speaker 02

  that's what we think. And we talked about it. And we were like, hey, listen, it's the, the risk isn't crazy high. Let's just continue the mission. And Sean, not like an hour later, we had, we counted 19 armed dudes like hunting us, actively hunting us. And I was, I never forget, like weapon off safe, you know, finger on the trigger, a guy walking closer to me than you are now, and being like, please don't make me have to shoot this guy. Because if I shoot this dude, it's going to be game on with 18 other dudes that are hunting us. And, and it was really, really sketchy. And it turns out, we got lucky, like three, they, they couldn't really find us. They started kind of ineffective fire spraying down the, the, the tree line that we were in. And, and I also

• 50:04Speaker 02

  remember one of the guys in the OP Chad Wilkinson, who you know, who was in your platoon, like I remember him calling me on comms and saying, hey, sir, I've got a guy with night vision, methodically working his way down the tree line. Do you want me to take him out? And my answer was, Chad, you are in a better position to make that call than I am. I am behind you. You know, whatever, like, like, it, like, you know, your call. And, and Chad also didn't shoot the guy. And, and honestly, like the reason, the fact that none of us ever had to pull the trigger on that op is why we're still here. And it's funny, Jimmy Graham, I think you said, you know Jimmy Graham, but he was our comms guy. And it's funny, like a year earlier, we had, we were supposed to be doing some maritime training, and it was lightning. And, you know, we didn't, it was, it

• 50:49Speaker 02

  was like weather conditions didn't allow us to train. Jimmy threw, instead of going home or playing Xbox, or whatever the Xbox of the day was, Jimmy said, listen, no, we're not, we need to do comms training. And, and so he put us all through some additional extra comms training, you know, blindfold, put take your radios apart, tune in a freak, blindfold it, all that kind of stuff. And because never miss an opportunity to train. Jimmy, on his own, as the comms guy, wants to do some advanced training. And he's like reminding himself of like antenna, you know, the HF antennas, they need to be cut a certain, a certain length in order to propagate a certain frequency the right way. And the function, the length is a function of the frequency. And Jimmy's like

• 51:28Speaker 02

  studying all these crazy antennas. Well, like on this op, Jimmy somehow rigs an antenna, gets a hold of a helicopter, a Kiowa Warrior, an OH 58 helicopter comes in, it comes in and starts reading out like where all the enemy forces are. Chad Wilkinson's a point man, just massively quickly plotting, he's so freaking good. And this other guy, Adam Newbold, and they were just like, like machines, like I could never have done what they did, you know, and they just let us right out. And, and we got out safely. And, and so those were the kinds of operations that we were on in Kosovo, which was important, but in the grand scheme of things, like, okay, we got pictures of the Russians giving arms to the people we probably knew they were giving arms to

• 52:11Speaker 02

  anyways, was, was that risk really worth it? I don't know.

• 52:14Shawn Ryan?

  Did anything come of it?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  We, we heard, we heard, and I actually know this to be true, that it made the presidential daily briefing, like that, that, that intelligence the next morning, including some of the pictures that we took and sent back. And so that was cool, like as a 26 or 27, whatever, 28 year old SEAL and a five other knuckleheads on a meeting, or on a mission in Kosovo, you're, you're doing things that, that, that does help provide intelligence back to policymakers. But that was pretty much it.

• 52:46Shawn Ryan?

  Mike, let's take a quick break.

• 52:51Shawn Ryan?

  Chris Pratt is back as James Reese in the prime original series, The Terminal List, season two, based on Jack Carr's True Believer. The season picks up nine months after Reese finishes his vendetta. He's hiding out in Mozambique to keep a low profile. But in order to clear his name, Reese must work with the CIA to track down the terrorists behind a wave of attacks across the West. That mission takes him through Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. And along the way, he reconnects with brothers he thought he'd left behind. But here's what I respect about this series. They've brought in people who actually lived that life to help tell the story. Seventeen military veterans worked on this season, both in front of and behind the camera.

• 53:36Shawn Ryan?

  Jack Carr and former Navy SEAL Ray Mendoza were part of that team, with veterans working as writers, directors, technical advisors, and cast members. That matters, especially when telling a story about service and the people who carry that experience with them. There's plenty of action, but what's at the center of it is loyalty, sacrifice, family, and that bond with the guys you served alongside. That doesn't go away because your service ends. The Terminal List, season two, watch now only on Prime.

• 54:13Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Mike, we're back from the break. And so we're wrapping up Kosovo. You got denied to go back home early to go screen for dev group. Where do we go from here?

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Well, actually, another thing I would, I would say is I also didn't get to go home for my daughter's birth on that deployment. And, and she was born in 2000, February of 2001. And, you know, it was like, we were doing these very scheduled ops, like I described, I could have easily gone home on those three, like, in that three, four day window, gone back home, at least been there for the birth and back and not missed a thing. And, and that was always really frustrating

• 54:54Shawn Ryan?

  They wouldn't let you go back for your daughter's birth?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  No, nope.

• 54:57Shawn Ryan?

  Was there any reason?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  You know, I think the teams used to be a lot less people friendly. And maybe it's gone in cycles or whatnot, but like, that really shaped me because I was like, I will never let anybody around me miss their child's birth. And so it was really, it was tough. But, you know, it was, what can you do? You, you, you, you can't, you can only control what you can control. And so

• 55:23Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, that was, that was a bummer.

• 55:27Shawn Ryan?

  How did you handle that? What, what did you do? Were you, were you on the phone?

• 55:32Speaker 02

  I got on the phone, it was a guy named Chaz Heron, rest his soul, who was the commander at Unit Two, and, and just didn't want to pull people off the, a leadership, pull leadership off the line, you know, and, and I tried explaining, like, he knew the rotations and stuff. And he's like, listen, I, I hear your request, but the answer is no. And I just, it was very disappointing. So I just, like I said, I just vowed that nobody would be in this situation. Anything that I could control for anybody else, they wouldn't have happened to them what happened to me.

• 56:06Shawn Ryan?

  How did your wife handle that?

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Like a good military spouse and just like, you know, it's, it's, it's service for the whole family, right? You know, and, and, you know, we eventually rotated back to Germany. I got to meet my daughter when she was maybe two months, month and a half, two months old, you know, something like that. My, my wife flew her over when, when I got to get back to Germany for a little bit. So, but she handled it well.

• 56:32Shawn Ryan?

  This was at the beginning of the deployment?

• 56:33Speaker 02

  It was, it was, it was more, more middle. Yeah. And so, because for the last, you know, we, it was toward, it was a little bit after, right around the middle. So.

• 56:45Shawn Ryan?

  When did you hear your daughter for the first time?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Man, that's a good question. Because there was no FaceTime or anything like that then, you know, I honestly don't remember the answer. I should know the answer to that, but I just don't.

• 56:56Shawn Ryan?

  When's the first time you talked to your wife after the birth?

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Pretty quickly after, on the phone. Yeah. Like, it was, you know, how did it go? It's like you're half a world away. And you're like, hey, how'd it go?

• 57:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Is that what you asked? How did it go?

• 57:13Speaker 02

  You know, I don't remember exactly what I asked. I probably was, you know, I, I just always appreciated that, you know, my wife was incredibly supportive of, of, of me. And, and I'll never forget that, you know, and, and it's hard. Service is hard, as you know. And, and the thing is, what leadership is, is making service as easy for others as possible. We don't need to make service harder for people. You know, and of course, there's risk about pulling people kind of off the line or whatever, but like, there's also common sense. And there was no common sense.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  So, so that, that, you know, kind of led me to the

• 57:56Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like seeing your daughter for the first time?

• 57:58Speaker 02

  You know, it was just overwhelming, overwhelming. My wife coming through the civilian airport in Stuttgart with this little, you know, carrier. It's like, I hadn't seen my wife for so long and it's the classic, you know, you go right to the kid and, and it was just really special.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just got a hotel, you know, I, we, I had a room in the barracks on the, on Panzerkurschern in Boeling in Germany, right next to Stuttgart, where Unit Two was, but we just got a hotel room and I stayed, we all stayed in one hotel room and this is back in the days of, you know, having no money whatsoever and just figuring out ways to make it work and, and, and so that was, I mean, I just loved being woken up at three in the morning to cries. It was, it was a real gift.

• 58:46Shawn Ryan?

  Man. So where do we go from here?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Well, I guess, into the two platoon world, like I, I, as mentioned, I didn't get to go to Darmstadt. I was frustrated. Do I get out? What do I do? And then when, when the CO, George Coleman said, hey, you can now be in charge of two platoons.

• 59:03Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the same guy that denied you coming home early?

• 59:05Speaker 02

  No, it's a different guy. It's like the, the Unit Two CO is who denied me from coming home. It's the SEAL Team Eight CO who denied me to come home early to go to Green Team. And, you know, these could have been common sense decisions, but they weren't. And okay, what do we do? Like we try like hell to get the right decision. And then once you know it's not happening and you can't control it, you just salute smartly and drive on, you know, and, and that's what I did. And so I just entered another workup, you know, a year and a half or whatever it was, a year, a year and a half, until we went over and deployed again. And this time, you know, we were overseas in, uh, this would have been early, like, like a little bit after nine 11 ish, you know, and, um, and

• 59:49Shawn Ryan?

  Where were you when nine 11 happened?

• 59:51Speaker 02

  I was at the pull up bars at SEAL Team Eight, not doing pull ups.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  So, uh, you know, I was, I was doing my half a pull up, Sean. Uh, no, we were at PT on the grinder at SEAL Team Eight and, and we found out and we all kind of ran inside and just got glued to the TV and, and, um, you know, we were saying, do we, do we grab Stinger missiles and protect the bases around? You know, there was a, a lot of like quick, like what's the base defense kind of plan? These are in the days, there was no homeland defense kind of mindset because it just wasn't a thing. And so we were just like, I remember I went to some like bogus, like one week Stinger course at one point in my career and, and, uh, so I was like then a Stinger expert and they're like, hey, you know, can you go lead a Stinger unit and sit outside of Naval Base Norfolk and make sure our ships don't hit, get hit? It didn't, we didn't end up actually doing that, but it was discussed and things like that were kicked around. But as you know, it,

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  it, it wasn't like some immediate, like break glass and we all fly away kind of response. You know, we just continued on our workup as we saw, you know, as we saw other forces go overseas.

• 1:00:51Shawn Ryan?

  And you were already a task unit commander at the time?

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  I was a task unit commander at SEAL Team Eight.

• 1:00:55Shawn Ryan?

  Can you explain what that is?

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, in charge of SEAL, two SEAL platoons. And so it's, it was a first kind of reorientation in the SEALs. Well, I'm sure we, it probably had happened sometime in the decades prior, but in my career, it was the first time where an officer would be in charge of two SEAL platoons. And so the thought process was, you know, kind of deploy with a little more seniority overseas, whether it's to a naval special warfare unit or onto a ship, you know, you have a, a, a more seasoned and savvy kind of like group that can represent itself and make sure the SEAL troop gets employed, or I said troop, it was task unit at the time, the SEAL task unit gets employed like it should.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  So it was just a

• 1:01:36Shawn Ryan?

  And this happened post nine 11?

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  It, it was pre and post. So like, I kind of, like, we were doing our stateside workup. Nine 11 happens, we continue the workup for a bit. And then I, I'm, I'm embarrassed to say, I can't remember exactly what month or, or we, we deployed and when exactly that was, but we went to, when it was time to go for our six month deployment, we deployed to Germany. And it was two SEAL platoons sitting in Germany and the invasion of Iraq was just getting, getting ready to kick off. And I guess, um, so this would have been like late 02 or early 03, uh, some, I'm, embarrassed that I don't remember the

• 1:02:15Shawn Ryan?

  Early 03.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  It was early 03? Yeah. Okay. So we were sitting around in Germany and, and, and all of the planning in late 02 and early 03 saying, okay, we're going to be the force that comes in through Turkey into Northern Iraq. That was the plan. And we were all geared up. We were like, okay, we're gonna, that's, we're gonna get the call for the big, the big mish. And, uh, what happened was Turkey said, hey, nope, no, no US forces are coming through, um, through Turkey into Northern Iraq. So we ended up sitting in Stuttgart with a full SEAL platoon, like trained for war, ready for war, eager to contribute to the nation in the ways that we've been trained.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  And, um, found out that we weren't getting the call. And so we were super demoralized. And in fact, I know from your wall up there, you have Ted, Tim Beamer in one of your platoons, Tim and I, Tim was, uh, was with me. And a couple of, a couple of us were like, what can we do? What can we do? And I, you know, being the officer geek that I was, I was looking at the message, the deployment order of a very limited number of forces that were still going to go to, um, Diabakur, Turkey and set up a base there. And then be ready to kind of do small missions from, from there into Northern Iraq. And I was reading this message, three, four page, you know, just mostly mumbo jumbo.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  And at the bottom of the very last page, it said, you know, the, written by Major so and so, and here's the phone number in the Pentagon for the major. So I was like, okay, let me, uh, let me just call the guy. And I called him and I said, you know, hey, sir, this is, you know, Lieutenant Mike Hayes from, from, uh, Stuttgart. You, you, you have a mistake in your message. You were, um, you, you missed listing the task force of SEALs that's attached to Unit Two on your deployment order. Could you please fix that and reissue the, reissue the message? It was like the ultimate end run, right? And who the, I mean, who the hell am I? Some little lieutenant sitting in Stuttgart, Germany with a thousand people between like the chain of command, but, but I completely didn't care.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  And, uh, the guy was like, actually appreciative. I remember him, it was actually almost too easy. He was like, yeah, sure. I'm really sorry that I missed you guys. Let me fix that and type that line in and reissue the message. And, and about maybe four hours later, the commander of, of Unit Two came, you know, storming over to me and he was like, Hayes, like, you're, you're going, like, how did this happen? Like you guys are going, you guys are going to war and, and you're going to go. And I, and I just, I was just like, I don't know how it happened, shit, you know? And, uh, hey, that's great, sir. You know, let's start packing. So now everybody in the, in the, in the task force is like, holy shit, Hayes is a freaking genius, you know, like how the hell did this happen?

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  I'm like, guys, you can't tell anybody this. Like, and they're like, we got your back. Let's get out of here. Let's go to Turkey. And then like four more hours later, uh, this guy, Commander Weers, Jerry Weers comes down and just rips, rips me a new one. And he's like, now I know how it happened. You called the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, staff to just get yourself inserted and he just like, he was like, that's not how you work. It just like the, the ass chewing from hell, you know? But I was like, okay, whatever. What are you going to do? Take away my birthday? You know, I'm gonna try to get our SEALs employed into, into the way we're supposed to be employed. And it, and it ultimately didn't work, but for a while there, it was some ups and downs and we ultimately did nothing. And again, I was just like, okay, like, here I am, a SEAL again overseas, not really

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  being employed, like war, full on war is kicking off and, and I'm, I'm not anywhere near it. Like what's my life going to be when I get home and?

• 1:05:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that happened to me.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  It did?

• 1:06:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I, I decided I was getting out on my first platoon.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Shawn Ryan?

  Because we were sitting on our ass in Germany doing nothing.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Germany's a fun place.

• 1:06:09Shawn Ryan?

  You know how many people, I wonder how many people have gotten out because of that exact scenario?

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  It's because

• 1:06:15Shawn Ryan?

  It was a fucking joke.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  Well, when you hire people who want to do the work they're trained to do.

• 1:06:20Shawn Ryan?

  But why? Like, do you have any insight into that? Why? Why are we fucking sitting in Germany doing nothing? Listening to the rest of the team over there blowing shit up or other units blowing shit up, killing bad guys, doing the job. And I'm sitting on my ass in Germany, going to the Irish pub.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Shawn Ryan?

  Getting drunk every night.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  I mean,

• 1:06:43Shawn Ryan?

  While I do nothing, because they need me there. To get drunk.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  The Irish pub needed you there. You know, it's like,

• 1:06:50Shawn Ryan?

  That's how I, I was just like, this is a fucking joke.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  That's how we all felt.

• 1:06:54Shawn Ryan?

  You're like 22 years old. I was like, this shit isn't for me.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, I'm at the time, I don't know, 29 or something, 30, I don't know. And, um, and responsible for every, I was responsible for 35 people or whatever it was that were all in the same boat. And so the, um, there's the individual response that you just described, but then I also had the, like, the weight of like make, trying to make it right for everybody else. And it's like, like, gosh, what are we doing here? We got, we've got capable people not being used.

• 1:07:27Shawn Ryan?

  But what, what were we doing there? Like, that's what I'm asking you as an officer. Do you have any insight on why are we, like, it just seems like a gross misuse of a very capable asset that could have been

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Sean, I, I mean, I agree. It's just, it's like supply and demand, right? They, they, there's somebody who assesses demand of what's needed on the battlefield. And then there's supply, which is like all the units that could go help meet that demand. And there's somebody who's kind of matching resources and, and helping supply meet demand. And, um, and, and I think the question really is, are you assessing those the right way? And, and that's the, that's what leads to frustration. You know, um, So I was, I was just saying to myself, hey, I'm, I'm gonna get out. I, I gotta figure out something else to go do. And I was, this is again, early days of kind of the internet here, but um, well, of like, of infrastructure around Navy,

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  the Navy's internet. And I was poking around and I saw this program called the Paul Mill Fellowship, Politico Military Fellowship. And it was two years of fully funded graduate school. And the Navy picks one officer per year for this two years of grad school. And I'm sitting doing nothing in Germany and I'm like, well, I got time on my hands. I can write my application for this and just turn it in. And I mean, I can, rather than going to the Irish pub for the seventh night in a row or whatever, I'll just sit in my room and, and, and apply for this program. And um, and I did, and I was, I found out on deployment, like, I don't know, I, I was, I was the first SEAL ever picked for this two-year program.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  And so I was ecstatic, you know, because it had always been a big Navy guy. I'd always been a pilot or some, you know, somebody who really mattered to the Navy. And um, and you know, SEALs were just coming into their heyday. And I think part of the reason I got picked is because it was, you know, it was the right time for a SEAL to be picked. And so it's not like I'm anyone special. I just had a good application and it was in the right, right time, right place, right time. And, and uh, you, you can go to whatever school you apply to and get in. And so then I was like, oh man, pressure's on. I've got the Navy's uh, like award, but now I've got to go get into somewhere respectable for school. Uh, I applied at Harvard Kennedy School for the Masters in Public Policy. And I was like, I'm going all in, you know, and I just,

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  applied and I got lucky and got in there. And then I, I spent oh three to oh five, I, I, in, in Cambridge, Mass, you know, doing a Masters in Public Policy. And, and I, even to this day, I joke around saying like, those are my best two years in the team, you know?

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  But uh, it was uh, but it, but it was hard because, you know, that's, you just have all your friends that are deploying. And of course, when you're in grad school, oh three to oh five, you're constantly talking to all your peers. And you know, you're seeing people come and go and doing all cool things and going overseas. Because look, eventually, that supply and demand thing that I talked about, it caught up. It just took a while. And, and all of us had way more work than we could handle, pretty shortly thereafter. And so seeing everybody kind of ramping up, you know, I, it was, it was um, I could kind of see that their wars weren't going anywhere. And so I uh, you know, I, I was, I graduated in June of two thousand and five. And of course, you know, Red Wings on June twenty eighth.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  I had orders to SEAL Team Ten, which was the, the unit that, that lost the helicopter uh, on, on Red Wings. And you know, the task unit commander of that force was a guy named Eric Christiansen. And I, I led, I did his triad board, I don't know, five or so years earlier at SEAL Team Eight. Like, I'm the one who certified Eric as a SEAL, as a SEAL officer. Cause we used to do that on the East Coast. Now it's all done on the West Coast as part of like the SQT pipeline or S, you know, I did STT. Just always got to change acronyms and names over the years. But, but uh, I, I knew all the guys that were in the helicopter that got shot down. I was at SEAL Team Eight with most of them.

• 1:11:29Shawn Ryan?

  Do you want to talk about that event real quick for the people that aren't familiar with it?

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, sure. Absolutely. Sorry. Um, of course, I'm, I'm presuming context that a lot of people probably don't have. The, on June twenty eighth, two thousand and five, we lost uh, eleven SEALs. And um, and I think it was eight, eight night stalkers. Um, uh, and so we, so at the time, it was the largest loss of life in the special operations community. There were, you know, three guys on the, on the, well, four, four guys on the ground, uh, three were killed in action. The lone survivor, Marcus Latrell. Um, obviously he made it out. He as the, as the lone survivor. And um, one of the, the helicopters that was responding to go help,

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  in response to Lieutenant Mike Murphy's satcom call for which Michael was awarded the Medal of Honor, uh, posthumously. But the, the helicopter, the two helicopters responded and one got shot down. And, and all, all lives, all souls on board were perished. And so it was extremely difficult. I was sitting in Cambridge, Mass, uh, moved quickly getting to Virginia Beach to try to, um, figure out what I could do. I, I talked to Commander Kent Perro, who was the commander of SEAL Team Ten at the time. And I, I called Kent and I said, hey, sir, I, I'm, I'm checking into SEAL Team Ten, you know, any minute. Now what do you, what do you need me to do? How can I help? And uh, at the time SEAL Team Ten had four SEAL platoons.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Two were um, in combat and two were not. One, one of the two in combat, there was one platoon in, in Baghdad and then one platoon in Afghanistan. And each of the platoon, they did a three-month rotation. So you got basically, if you were in one of those SEAL platoons, you got three months of combat in either Iraq or Afghanistan at the time. And so Kent said, hey, Mike, can you take over for Eric and just reconstitute the force and take over for the guys that are all in Germany? And uh, dude, it was super hard.

• 1:13:23Shawn Ryan?

  What was that like showing up there after that?

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Man.

• 1:13:27Shawn Ryan?

  Was it, was it?

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  You know,

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  to some degree, I felt like I was, I was like, born for a moment like that, you know? Um,

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  first of all, you got a lot of friends that are gone. And, but second of all, all your friends who are gone, all they want is, is the survivors to, you know, continue to thrive. You know, and, and continue to, to, to be, um, be well. And, and there was a lot of not wellness. There was a lot of, you know, everybody kind of had their own things, whether it was nightmares and not being able, literally not being able to sleep, because these guys all helped with the recovery. These guys all went to the crash site. Rangers secured the crash site, but SEAL, this, that's, the, the SEALs who lived through that also went to that crash site. They put their own friends, the, the, the pieces and the parts of their friends that they could find in body bags.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  And uh, and, and those images must have, I didn't see them personally live like these guys did. And uh, and I could just imagine what they were going through. And so what I did was, called back to the States and I said, hey, I need a chaplain and a psychologist out here like ASAP. I'm out of my depth here. Like, I'm helping a lot and I'm talking to all these guys and, you know, they're all, you know, day drinking, non-stop. It's, it's like, or literally can't sleep or, you know, just excessive behaviors, you know? And uh, and so I got, there was, uh, maybe I shouldn't use their names. I don't know if they'd want me to, but there was a really amazing psychologist. I'll just call him JB.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  And uh, and then um, and then uh, a chaplain who I know would be fine with it, Corey Cathcart, who was just the man. Like, the, the, the, the two of those guys came out. I got all the, the SEALs together and I said, hey, fellas, here's the deal.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  We're all trying to, trying to heal and, and honor our lost brothers.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  None of you are going to want to sit with the chaplain or the psychologist because you think that, you know, you're too cool for that or you don't need that. I'm going to tell you it's not an option. Because I don't want there to be any sort of,

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  chitter chatter on who spoke to the psych, who didn't, who opted in, who opted out. Everybody's in. And I don't care if you walk in and you say hello and your name and your rank and your serial number, and shake hands and be nice and pleasant and appreciate the person coming in and decide that you need to walk back out. But everybody will sit with both the chaplain and the psychologist and just talk.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  And this is the beginning, like Sean, I think this was the first, time that we ever had any sort of real psychologist or real chaplain, involved so closely in a SEAL situ, a real SEAL or a real special operations situation. I'm sure in the longer arc of, of, of, of special operations, many, many, many times, but, but at that point, it hadn't happened for a while and it was kind of breaking some new cultural ground. And uh, in fact, if you watch In Waves in War, you know, Matty Roberts, who was one of the guys there, you know, he talked about, how he was kind of forced to talk to the chaplain and the psych. That was me that made him do it. And uh, and I love Matt. I love the guy. Um, I loved all those guys. I love all those guys. But, not but, and.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  Uh, the chaplain and the psych were very careful to not tell me individuals and situations, but give me the overall picture of how people were doing. And we just kind of the three of us constantly conferred of like, what can we be doing to help these guys heal?

• 1:17:06Shawn Ryan?

  And you know. What was the overall consensus?

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  Just more talking. It was keep people talking. You know, keep people, just let them.

• 1:17:15Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, would they tell you how the guys are doing?

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Yeah. Like not by name of like, hey, this person is clearly like, you know, using drugs, but the general consensus of like, like, yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent.

• 1:17:27Shawn Ryan?

  What was it? Broken?

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Broken.

• 1:17:30Shawn Ryan?

  Ready for more?

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Broken is the best word for it. Broken, but like, you know, you've got that, you, but everybody's got the seal in them, meaning like, there's a mission to do. We still need to be kind of like mission ready, sitting here in Stuttgart in case something else happened. You know, cause the whole, you were still on deployment. That was the deployed for force to, to European command and the goal was to stay mission ready. And so it's, it's, um, that was really, really, really tough. And, and I'll tell you, we needed to extend the chaplain and the psychologist like three extra weeks. They were going to come out and I think their original trip was scheduled for like three or four days. They stayed for a month. And, uh, and to this day, I think a lot of us are, are, are still really tight with both those guys.

• 1:18:16Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have any insight into the planning that went into that operation?

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  I wasn't part of it. I was sitting in, in Cambridge, Mass for grad school. I've heard a lot of it anecdotally, you know, but it's all secondhand.

• 1:18:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, what I'll say is, maybe this isn't popular, but, um, okay. Remember the Bosnia operation that I just talked about around the special reconnaissance? The, the, the, the adage that I learned from SEALs elder, older than me growing up was that if you've been compromised, assume you have, and if you have exfil.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  What happened at Red Wings is those guys were compromised. They did not exfil. I'm not throwing stones. I didn't exfil either. Like just to be clear, like I'm, I am not judging. Those guys made an operational call. Not my place to, to, to judge them. But it's just a fact. They didn't, they didn't exfil. And if they, if they would have, it would not have been the same situation. And.

• 1:19:17Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of, uh, I mean, there's a lot of chatter about what they were doing out there to begin with too. Because if I remember correctly, Dev Group actually turned the operation down because it was, it was, it was too hairy, correct?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  I don't know the specific facts around that. I know they were operating in the area at the same time. I know the guy who was the troop commander, um, from red squadron who was out there. And yeah, they, they didn't think it was a smart thing to put that big bird out in that kind of a situation. Um, I, I know there was, was disagreement with, with that decision. But again, you know, like any of these things, like hindsight's always 2020, you know, it's really easy to say that now. And, um, you know, it's, it's not unlike, you know, for the, again, I want to be careful that I, nobody hears this, thinks that I'm in any way judging, you know, Jonas Kelso was on the deployment with me in Iraq. He was a, a, the bravest, most badass young SEAL.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Like he and Lou Langlis decided to infill in one helicopter, which turned into extortion 17. There's no question like that, that they made a tactical decision that to me seems like, like the right decision. I mean, um, I'm not one of them, but I'm not some layperson with no knowledge either. I'm somewhere in the middle and, and being pretty informed like I am, like it makes a lot of sense of what decision they made, but they lost everybody because they were all on one helicopter, you know? And, um, and, uh, again, we, it's really, I will never be somebody to, to look back and well, we want to look back and learn and say what could or should we have done differently, but I won't look back and judge.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  So that was, um, so with, with Red Wings, in fact, like, I don't want to jump ahead, but like in Afghanistan, there was a special, we, we had a really amazing mission that was a combination of actually SEALs and Green Berets, which was, we didn't do super often. But there were four guys doing this special reconnaissance mission overlooking this site where there were like 40 Taliban. And they were just waiting for everybody to get kind of like, I'll just say kind of like lined up just right to kind of drop a couple 500 pound JDAM, you know, kind of big, big bombs on these guys and take them out. But they also, they also had a couple of Taliban working up this hill and, and potentially looking for them. And man, I canceled that operation like six hours into it or something like that. And it would have been really great to kill 40 Taliban, but it would have been like,

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  I don't care about 40 Taliban as much as I care about the Green Berets and the SEALs that are on the ground. And I had learned that as a young SEAL in Kosovo. And so when I like years and years later, when I'm a commander of SEAL Team Two, that's just risk we didn't need to take. And man, those guys got back and they were so fricking frustrated with me for canceling the mission and they thought I was weak or, or, um, you know, risk averse. You know, they're working for the risk averse commander that doesn't want to get after it. Nothing was further from the truth, but I sat down, I, I actually flew out to them. I got on a helicopter and flew to them after the mission. And I sat down with those guys and I said, guys, let me walk you through what happened to me in Kosovo and tell you what I, I could have just saved you. And even if it's one time out of a hundred, I'll take that all day long because

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  you can go back out tomorrow and go find those 40 Taliban. I care too much about your lives and, and your families and, and this mission, because you need, if you're not here to do the mission, then there is no mission. You know, and I think there was like sharing, just like anything, when you have a strong disagreement about something, you got to slow down and say, well, what's the other side of this?

• 1:22:40Shawn Ryan?

  How do you, I mean, as a, as a leader, how do you determine when the risk outweighs the reward and vice versa?

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a really.

• 1:22:49Shawn Ryan?

  How do you determine that?

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  It's a, there's no, there's no formulaic answer. There, it's, it's a, because you're, you're always taking risk. I mean, we were doing ops every single night, you know? And so, um, but, but at some point, you know, you just have these risk parameters of it's, um, you know, our, our job as, as special operators is to never fight fair, right? Always ethically, always legally, always the way, the way, the, um, but, but never fair. And how do you stack the odds in our favor as much as you humanly can? And so when that becomes proportionate, like, why do you want to go, why do you want to go into a situation where you don't have the advantage? You know, and, and, um, and plus the other thing that I think human brains get

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  wrong is that they underestimate how quickly something can turn bad.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  It's, um, it's real like, I, you know, it's only two guys coming up the hill. Yeah. But these freaking Taliban that were, that have been running up and down these mountains all their lives and they're not wearing 40 pounds of kit. They're wearing, they have, they have a gun and two magazines. They can get up those, the, the, the 4,000 feet that you're sitting at, they can climb that and before we can have a helicopter out to you. And you could have 50 guys overrunning you. Cause all they have to do is get on one of their, their ICOM, their intercoms and, and call all their cousins and friends. And now you've got Taliban overrunning you and you're at the top of a mountain with not that much munitions. Um, and, and it's, it's also a function, Sean, of like, what are the supporting assets that you have?

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Do you have the AC 130 or jets? Do you have helicopters? Where, where, what's, how far off is your medevac? Like this is where by the time you get to be a SEAL Team Commander, you're, you're, you have such a great sense for like all of these risk factors individually. And then you aggregate that and you synthesize it into kind of one yes, no, cancel kind of question.

• 1:24:40Shawn Ryan?

  Well, how would your mindset changed if it had? How would your mindset change from when you were sitting in Germany and almost got your guys into Turkey to do some cross border shit into Iraq to now you're in Afghanistan and calling off a mission? Had, had it changed?

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:24:58Shawn Ryan?

  Or was it different circumstances?

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  It was just different inputs, you know, like, because the, the get, get from Germany into the, into the war was more of like, are we in proximity of the, of the, of the fight? And it's not like we would have been out there by ourselves. There were, there were other units that were around and whatnot. This particular reconnaissance mission in Afghanistan was one isolated mission by one small unit on one given night. There were 25 outstations that, that fell under SOTF Southeast. That was actually like 22 or something like that, that were either SEALs or Green Berets. And I, you know, we, um,

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  we, we had about a third of those out doing some sort of a mission at any given time. And so like, who cares about what, like, like that, that one mission isn't going to make or break our overall performance over, like I was in command for 10 months in, in, in Afghanistan in 2012, the timeframe we're talking about. And, uh, and no single mission is worth, like, is worth losing one of these guys, but

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  the, the pace that we were working at and the effects that we were having across the, the entire battlefield, we were, we were, we were doing what we were there to do.

• 1:26:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, then I'm curious, why did you feel the need to? If it was just one mission and it was that busy, why did you feel the need to give them such a detailed explanation on why they didn't do that exact?

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  That's a great question, Sean. I think it's because it's growth. It's it's principles, it's a principle based approach to like, like helping, like I always say, we don't teach SEALs what to think, we teach them how to think. And there's a big difference. If I come in and just say, like after an op, hey, jackass, you turned left, you should have turned right. You're not going to learn anything. But let's say, hey, Sean, when you came in out of that mud hut, help me understand, why did you turn left? And you'll be like, well, Mike, because, you know, I had, you know, three enemy up high on a second floor in in hut, in mud huts that were like over there. I had, you know, sixty eight percent of loom. I had,

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  you know, I I knew I had, you know, another force trying to flank us and da da da. And and you, when you unpack that logic of what you were thinking, then you can say, oh, I understand what you're talking, understand what you were thinking. But here's a different way to look at it. You put your weight on this, but I would have put my weight on that. And like, it's interesting, because like in my private sector career, right out of the SEALs, I went to Bridgewater. And it's really like thinking about from the hedge fund world, you separate your data from your logic, from your opinion or your your answer. And and so we might be looking at different data. You know, and I don't mean ones and zeros. I mean, if you're coming off of a mission, that just, how are you looking at the situation on the ground?

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  And or what's your logic, the why you turned left or right? And then where does that lead you? And that way, in those debriefs, you can say, actually, you know, Sean, I think you were missing some, some, some information. You didn't see X, Y, Z. You didn't have the same, we didn't have the same data. We're not on the same, the reason we're not agreeing. Let's not talk about do we agree or not? Let's back up and say, are we looking at the same thing? And then what's the logic? And then you can say, well, gosh, when you take the logic and apply it to the data, it might bring you to A and me to B. Why is that? Those are the debrief conversations that are really robust because you think about,

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  you you really learn. And to me, it was worth, I was always, by the way, like in these debriefs, doesn't mean I'm right. Like, I'll go out there and say, here's what I was thinking. I might have been missing things. I might be wrong, you know? But but that's, if I'm wrong, I'll go, hey, I learned. You know what? Like, I could have, yeah. So you know what, guys? Sorry, I missed that. I canceled the op. Sorry, it was in, it was in your best, in my opinion at the time, in your best interest. You're right. With what you just told me, I would have made a different decision and I'm sorry. That's how I operated. Now, in that particular situation, that wasn't the case, but that's the way to approach leadership to me.

• 1:29:11Shawn Ryan?

  Let's backtrack a little bit.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Shawn Ryan?

  What was your relationship with Brian Willett?

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  Um, when I checked into SEAL Team Four, I pulled up and um, and the team was just coming home from PT, you know, whatever, nine in the morning. I'm, I'm the new guy. And you can imagine in ninety four, it's like game on, you know, and uh, Brian Willett was one of the loudest guys you could possibly imagine and just like, not new guy friendly. And uh, that's the polite way to say it. Uh, and he had the thickest Massachusetts accent you could ever imagine. And so I'm just, you know, just roll with it. I'm the new guy, no big deal. I just coming from Bud's, you can't hurt me, bring the pain, whatever.

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  You know, but uh, but then I see him in the hall and I'm like, I'm like, hey, you're some asshole, aren't you? And uh, and uh, this is like later that day and he's like, yeah. And I, hey, I'm Mike Hayes, you know, I'm Brian Willett. And I'm like, okay, well, like you were pretty much an asshole earlier today, but I think you're probably not as much of an asshole as you came across as out there. You know, and just introduce myself, you know, hey, tell me about yourself. Let me, let me, you know, somebody to learn from, whatever. So Brian and I had a good, healthy respect for each other and um, and uh, there were a lot of, a lot of guys like that at SEAL Team Four. It was a special time there and then in the early nineties, earlyish nineties. But then, um,

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll jump forward like to when I was in grad school. And again, we're at two thousand three to two thousand five in Cambridge, Mass. Uh, I've grown up, I'm fifty five years old. I've been a Sox and a Pats fan for fifty six years, you know, and um, and uh, and so being there in two thousand, in in two thousand four, the Red Sox were always trying to reverse the curse. They hadn't won a World Series forever. But uh, Brian was killed in action in a Humvee. He was blown up in an IED along with three others. And it really shook me. You know, I'm sitting in Cambridge and a guy who I respected the hell out of was just instantly vaporized. And uh, and I was like, what can I do? You know, what can I do?

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  Brian's got seven, I think it was, siblings that were all from the greater Boston area. Both of his parents were from, from the area. And there was a reporter who is famous in kind of the Boston Globe, Shaughnessy. And his email address was always at the bottom of every article he wrote. And I emailed him and said, hey, here's who I am, here's what's just happened. You know the Red Sox really well. I don't know anybody at the Red Sox. I I want to get a game dedicated to my friend Brian. And um, just a cold email to the guy. And he said, hey, Mike, so sorry for the, your loss and the country's loss. And here's, I I've connected you with, you know, so and so from, from the Red Sox organization. Got on the phone with her and I said, hey, here's what I like to do.

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  This family is like Boston proud. And uh, can we set up a game where we get a whole bunch of SEALs and the family like in the, in the stands? And this was the, you know, toward the tail, it was toward, I don't remember exactly what month, but roughly call it like, like September-ish, you know, toward the end of the baseball season. Red Sox were uh, in contention for a wild card uh, to make the playoffs. And um, and so the, the rest of the year was sold out. There were no seats left and we were trying to get fifty seats, you know, or something like that. And she's like, man, this is gonna be impossible. And I was like, nothing's impossible. Can we talk to the players? They all get allocated, you know,

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

  tickets and maybe I'm giving you the too long version here, but uh, I said, can you get the players to donate the family tickets for a game? And so that at least like we can just take over the family section. There's always a way to solve some, something. And um, and uh, so she did it. And we got whatever fifty or so tickets and we got um, the whole Willett family at at Red Sox, you know, at Fenway Park. And um, got his mom and dad and family on the, on the mound for um, for the beginning of the game. Put his, the, the, put a picture of Brian up on the big screen. I wrote a nice paragraph about him that the, that the announcer read. And

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  dude, the standing ovation that his family got was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen in my entire life. Um, it was almost four minutes long, just nonstop. No one sat down. And his family was out on the mound. I was just kind of over the, the, the fence on the field taking pictures and just bawling. You know, it's like the kind of cry where the tears are coming nonstop, but your throat's not crying. You know, and and it was just overwhelmingly amazing to see his family recognized. And to see thirty five thousand people in the stands

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  recognizing what was happening with war and with loss for the nation. Because it was one of, it was one of Boston's own. And today in Waltham, there's a square named after Brian, um, which I, whenever I'm in the area, I drive through and I stop my car and I pause and I say a little prayer. That's Brian.

• 1:34:51Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all have a thousand Bryans. I got, I got a lot of Bryans, unfortunately. Yeah. But it was really um, meaningful to be able to at least set something up where, you know, I haven't spoken to any of his family members in years, but uh, but one thing I'm certain of is they'll never forget that. They'll never forget. And I don't mean the me part of it. I mean, the thirty five thousand people part of it.

• 1:35:21Shawn Ryan?

  That's incredible.

• 1:35:27Shawn Ryan?

  I've only seen one thing like that, to be honest with you. And it was, uh, did you know Scotty Wertz by chance?

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  I I know the name. I don't know him.

• 1:35:35Shawn Ryan?

  Scotty Wertz is um, he was the, he was contracting for DIA when uh, Joe Kent's wife was killed. And uh, that, when the suicide bomber had him in Afghanistan. And he was from St. Louis and I went to his, his service and man, ev- every overpass that you drove under on the highway from the church to to the cemetery was packed, was packed with people.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  Doesn't it make you proud to be an American in those moments?

• 1:36:10Shawn Ryan?

  It does. I'd never, I mean, I've been to funerals. I'd never seen anything like that. Like the whole town came together. It was,

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:19Shawn Ryan?

  St. Louis is a rough town.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  But uh, that was incredible.

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  Well, this is why anytime I'm driving, I make it an absolute inviolable thing to do is when I see a road or something named after somebody, I Google that person. And more often than not, it's ninety percent of the roads that are named after someone, it's some sort of a service person. Sometimes World War Two, sometimes whatever. But every time I say, who was that? And I just try to remember. And I, of course, you never know the person, but you just, I just pause and say, thank you.

• 1:36:59Shawn Ryan?

  October is when routines start getting tested. Schedule changes, mornings get darker, travel picks up, training can start slipping and it gets easy to feel like your body is just trying to keep up instead of staying ahead of it. That's why I use AG One Pro. AG One Pro is built on the same foundation as AG One Next Gen, but it does more. One pack, cold water, every morning before anything else. That's important to me because I don't want a countertop full of different products. I want something simple that I can stay consistent with. AG1 Pro brings together 80 plus vitamins and minerals, gut health support,

• 1:37:44Shawn Ryan?

  whole food sourced ingredients and creatine, all in one daily drink. It's formulated to help maintain lean muscle mass and support muscle recovery. So when life gets busy, the season doesn't set you back in the gym. And AG1 Pro carries forward the same immune supporting ingredients from AG1 Next Gen. Like vitamin C and zinc for less than a dollar more per serving. I use AG1 Pro because I want my morning routine to support how I train, how I recover, and how I show up every day. Go to drinkag1.com/srs and for a limited time,

• 1:38:26Shawn Ryan?

  get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/srs.

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  Hey Sean, I forgot almost some of the best punchline from the Brian Willett story. The, um, the game that the Sox were at, they won.

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  They won the wild card that year and they did reverse the curse. They won the world, they, they won the world series in 2004. And the reason they won, according to Mrs. Willett, is three things. Number one, the game was dedicated to Brian. And in that game, there were two other really cool things that happened. There was a barkeep at Fenway Park who had been working there like for generations. And that night, for whatever reason, he was cleaning under his bar and felt something stuck there. And it was a penny from the year that Babe Ruth was traded away from the Red Sox. And he chipped that penny off. And so that reversed the curse. The other thing that happened that game is there was a foul ball that got hit down the third base line,

• 1:40:14Speaker 02

  hit a kid, I want to say in the head, I'm probably exaggerating, but like, and maybe it hit him in the arm or who knows? But, but that kid lived in the house in either Lynn or Revere in north of Boston where Babe Ruth lived also.

• 1:40:30Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  And so Mrs. Willett is like, Brian reversed the curse and they won the world series because of Brian.

• 1:40:38Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's cool. That is cool. Wow.

• 1:40:44Shawn Ryan?

  So let's move on to, I think you did a augment with Red Squadron.

• 1:40:50Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:40:51Shawn Ryan?

  How was that?

• 1:40:52Speaker 02

  Super educational. So yeah, so I finished like, like Red Wings was done. We came home and now we're in a workup to get ready to deploy to Iraq. I had never been to Iraq. This is now 2006. The war had been going on for quite some time. I'd never even stepped foot there yet. So, um, I had the opportunity to go out with, uh, to, um, well, to, to Western Iraq with, with Red Squadron. And, um, I knew a bunch of the guys there and, you know, guys that I'd grown up with or whatever. And, um, and just got to learn, you know, what's the operational environment like? What are people dealing with? What kinds of, of, what kinds of, you know?

• 1:41:32Speaker 02

  How can you learn to prepare to bring your task force, my task force back to, you know, Fallujah? You know, a year later and, uh, and, you know, I, I got to the privilege of, of, you know, certainly sat in the, in the, in the jock, the talk, whatever, the operating center, whatever we were calling it those days, a lot. But, um, but also got the opportunity to go out on a couple of ops with those guys. And, and it was, it was really, um, that was like my, my first, in fact, my first op in, in Iraq was, uh, it was amazing. You know, these guys are so dialed in, they're just a machine, machines are just so fricking impressive. And I'm just kind of like, you know, I'm the strap hanger that's, you know, lucky to be on the op and, and glad to have that opportunity.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  And the, one of the troop commanders was a guy named Frank Frankie, who I grew up with at SEAL Team Four. Like we were good, good, good friends. He's an amazing human. Uh, Wyman Howard was the commander of Red Squadron at the time, knew Wyman really well. And this particular, my first op that I got to go out on, you know, after finally sitting in the jock for a month or something like that.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  You know, you just don't want to mess up. Like I'm just like, how do I stay out of everybody's way? Kind of observe and, you know, maybe pick up rear security or something like that, you know? And, uh, I was in the command and control element with Frank, Frank Frankie. And there were, the plan was to have, basically there were three buildings that were going to hit, get hit simultaneously. And Frank's busy kind of command and control stuff. And we were at a building, like a, I say building, it's just like frigging mud hut. But there was like a little piece of electric wire with a string light on it. And Frank's like, hey Mike, take care of the light, would you? Like do me a favor, take care of that light. And I'm letting, like, I don't want to bother him. I'm like, okay, yeah, of course. And then I'm like, wait a minute, like we haven't gone hard yet. Like I can't, I don't want to make a noise. I don't want to like,

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  is he asking me to do that now before we go, you know? And I'm like, overthinking this now, right? And I'm like, okay, I could take my spider co and cut the electric wire, but then I could see myself frying myself and like laying on the ground and be like some, you know, casualty on my first cool guy op with damn neck. And, uh, and, and then, uh, I'm like, okay, I got it. I was the kid in third grade who everybody paid to throw the softball at the dunk tank and dunk the, the teachers, you know? Like I have a pretty good arm and I'm, I'm pretty good throwing grenades and stuff. And, and I'm like, okay, I'll just throw a rock and hit the, and hit the light and, and, um, the light bulb. So right when the guys were like, it's, it's like seconds away from going, going live, I have a rock.

• 1:44:04Speaker 02

  And Sean, I go to throw a rock at this light and my arm gets caught on my sling and my hand goes and the rock like falls one feet and one foot in front of me. And I was like, dude, did anybody see that? I just looked like the, the, the like biggest loser on the entire planet. And I was just like, here's my first damn neck op. And I'm like, you know, just complete loser. And so, uh, that, that was a, but I, I, I say that, but like, man, lots of really good, good, uh, learning. And then in preparation to kind of come back for what was a very serious deployment in 2007.

• 1:44:39Shawn Ryan?

  What did you notice the differences were?

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  Between damn neck and us? Oh dude, just like speed and agility and precision. Like just, you know, you could say, oh, maybe better kit or this or that, or funded better. But no, it's, it boils down to like the, the, um,

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  uh, exactly what I just said, but I would also say being able to execute without communication.

• 1:45:06Speaker 02

  You know, less like, you know, and you think you're good at doing things without communicating. You know, I speak to some pro teams now. I spoke to the Pittsburgh Steelers a few, few weeks ago and, um, or, or like I'm really close with Dan Hurley, the coach of the UConn basketball team. And I'm, when I talk to sports teams now, it's like, like really the thing that makes you elite is being able to know what your teammate is going to do without communicating. So if you're in the secondary, I, you know, in, in football or you're, you're on the basketball court, like, do you know your teammate so well that you know what he's going to do without having to communicate? And how do you get there? And it kind of ties back to that, like the, the teaching people how to think, what not, what to think. Once we go through these debriefs enough times, I'm going to understand how your brain works.

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  And I, I'm going to know what way you're going to cut. You're going to make a read a certain way or whatever. And it's no different. Like those guys were so fricking dialed in. It was really impressive.

• 1:45:57Shawn Ryan?

  How long did you spend with them?

• 1:45:58Speaker 02

  I was there three months, maybe. I want to say, I can't remember precisely, but three months I might've got to go out with them. I don't know, seven, eight, 10 times, not 10 probably, but, but more than five.

• 1:46:10Shawn Ryan?

  And so you brought some of that home to your.

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  As much as I could, you know, but, but a lot of it was, we're not going to be them from a, immediately from a, um, a finely tuned, the, the speed, the agility, the communication. But how do you take from that and transfer as much as you can back over to your organization? But I think like, that was all great, but I think what really helped was seeing the operational environment. Cause we're operating like, we're operating in the same, like it's, it's the same enemy basically, you know? And so what's the enemy doing? And it just gave me a really good sight picture into like, how do we need to be preparing as a team? Um, you know, we had our, our deployment in 2007 from SEAL Team 10. You know, part of the team went to Baghdad and then, um,

• 1:46:56Speaker 02

  part of the team stayed in, in Western Iraq, Fallujah, Anbar, all through Anbar province. And, uh, yeah, there was a lot of,

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  and we went out, I mean, it was every single night, every night. And I probably on that, on that deployment, I mean, I should look, the guys never needed me on a single op, like, like they, they just didn't. But, but, um, I, I went out with them every third or fourth night and I used to.

• 1:47:23Shawn Ryan?

  This is a 10?

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  This is that SEAL Team 10. So 2007 deployment to, to Iraq.

• 1:47:29Shawn Ryan?

  So how many deployments have you done up to this point?

• 1:47:32Speaker 02

  Um, I would say that was my sixth, I think.

• 1:47:34Shawn Ryan?

  How's your wife doing?

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  Great. I mean, look, I mean,

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  she's solid.

• 1:47:41Shawn Ryan?

  How old's your water, your daughter now?

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  Uh, so 2007, she's six.

• 1:47:47Shawn Ryan?

  How did you meet your wife?

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  In Virginia Beach shortly after I, I, I checked in, you know, I, I had, um, a really good friend that we went through, I, we started out in the same class. He got, got rolled to the next class, Job Price. And we decided we would be roommates at SEAL Team, when, when we both, we had orders of SEAL Team Four. And so he was arriving two or three months after me. And so I kind of crashed in another friend's house here and there and kind of like, you know, you don't have much, it's, it sounds silly, but like that, I don't know, at the time, $1,600 lease, like I could carry the $800, but I couldn't afford the whole $1,600 until he came out and could pay half the lease, you know? And so, um, I just kind of lung it, slept on friends' couches and stuff like that for a while. And, and, um, and then eventually signed a lease with, with Job.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  And, uh, and so my wife had moved to Virginia Beach at the same time and, and we met down there.

• 1:48:42Shawn Ryan?

  How'd you propose to her?

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Actually in Puerto Rico on a, on a, on a vacation before deployment. So that SEAL Team Four deployment was in 1996. And I proposed right before going on deployment. Came home and got married like three days after going home. So like the, the, I, I had the ma- either the master stroke or the worst like logic on wedding prep. You know, like I was not in the country for any of it. So, um, no, she's, she was a champ, like just.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Like the, the service that like, a lot of people think you need to wear a uniform when they say service. And I just think like, no, you like, everybody serves like that. And that's one of the things that, that drives me now is like.

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  How do you just get off the sideline and serve? We are, we're all here to serve each other, you know? And, and certainly I'll tell you like my wife and daughter served, you know, it's like whether, you know, they worked double and triple time while I wasn't there to cut the grass and do all the things that every single service.

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  Person, every, everybody in the whole military family understands so well, you know? It's a, it's a sacrifice for the whole family.

• 1:49:56Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how are you handling doing? Six month deployments, three month deployments, coming home? I mean, I've got little kids right now. I can see how much they can change in a month, a week.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  I don't think I knew better. I don't think I knew better. Like it's just the life that I knew. You know, and it wasn't, it was always hard. Like the hardest days of your life are like going to the team and saying goodbye to the family, you know? And, and I remember super vividly for that, that deployment to Iraq thinking like. Man, I hope I come home from this, you know? And, um. And we could talk about things on that deployment. There was a lot to talk about, but, um, but coming home from that deployment. You know, there's always the question of did the wives meet you at the airport or they meet at the team, you know? And we decided that deployment, they'd meet at the team and we took a bus home from the airfield and, um, we flew into not Oceana, into the, the naval base Norfolk and jumped on some buses.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  And I remember I was trying to hide this and I don't know that anybody ever saw it, but like. Um, being on a bus going from, on roads that weren't going to blow up. I just broke down on, and, and just lost it on. Like I'm back in America. I don't need to worry about this road blowing up anymore. I did it, I made it home. You know, it was a really.

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  It was a really powerful moment to appreciate something as simple as a road that doesn't blow up. And what America is.

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  And just, you know, I'm a sucker for those like military videos where like the kid throws out the first pitch and the dad just came home from deployment. He peels off the catcher's mask and it's him, you know? Or any of the, like all of those like family reuniting things like we felt that so vividly so many times that those. It just brings me right back to those places where, you know, you get that come back together as a family thing. And it's, dude, it all.

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

  It's just powerful. It's something that so many people who will listen to this understand. You know, our family's no different. It's a family unit that comes together and sacrifices so much. And I just wish that the America that doesn't know what it means to serve could actually appreciate and understand the depth of, the depth and the intensity of what it takes, not just from the service members, but from the, I'll say wives, but spouses. It's mostly wives and the kids. It's a real toll.

• 1:52:24Shawn Ryan?

  How old was your daughter when you stopped deploying?

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Uh, 12, 13, 13.

• 1:52:30Shawn Ryan?

  13 years old.

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause my last deployment was the commanding officer SEAL Team Two. I came home, I got out and I moved to Westport, Connecticut.

• 1:52:38Shawn Ryan?

  So, I mean.

• 1:52:41Shawn Ryan?

  Does she ever talk to you about that?

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think she's like.

• 1:52:45Shawn Ryan?

  What does she say?

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  I think she understands that that was her component of service. It in many ways has made her who she is.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  She understands what sacrifice is, um, you know, I, uh.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  We'll jump around a little bit here. I, I don't know if this, this really fits in right now, but I'll just, just, just do it. The, uh.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  When I was at SEAL, in command of SEAL Team Two, you know, in Afghanistan in 2012, I got ready to leave and my, that first roommate, Job Price, uh, was like, hey, Mike, you know, I'll be there for the family. And, and he was, while I was deployed in command of SOTF Southeast and he was constantly checking in on my family. And, uh, and I super appreciated that like, cause it's like, you can't be there and you got like a brother of yours to, to be there for, for your family and like, hey guys, what do you need? And how can I help? And, or just to tell a joke or to make light of things and, and, um.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  And so then I came, Job and his team deployed over to Afghanistan. You know, the, the outstations kind of do their first turnover and the last thing to turn over is the, is the headquarters. I'm skipping a lot of stuff from that deployment right now, just to focus on this particular story. That was a really hard, really hard deployment and, uh, we, we didn't. We didn't lose anybody. I, I had guys get, you know, shot, wounded, you know? I amputated a teammate's leg that deployment, like just a lot of craziness on that command deployment. But, uh. But, uh, we didn't lose anybody and, um, it's probably worth a little bit of a conversation later on on that too. But, but for this, I just took it very seriously to tell Job everything that we did to not lose someone.

• 1:54:30Speaker 02

  And Job was like, man, it feels so much pressure to, to not lose somebody also. And, uh, in the first, I don't know, four weeks or so of his deployment, he lost three or four guys, four guys in like three different situ- uh, incidents.

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  And, you know, when Job's family deployed, my daughter made what she called a deployment box for Job's daughter, who was like one year younger than her. Uh, maybe two years younger than her, something like that. And my wife and I did not ask our daughter to create some deployment box. And what it was, was a cardboard thing that where she wrote a three by five note card for what would be every day of deployment, 10 months. So 300 note cards with different thoughts on it. Things like when, um, in the concept was while your dad is gone, reach into the deployment box and take out a three by five card for every day he's gone. And like on that, on like the card said things like,

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  when you miss your dad, go into his, his drawer and take out a T-shirt, put it on and pretend it's a hug from him.

• 1:55:40Speaker 02

  Like those kinds of things like, and, um, and so, you know, so, so his daughter had, had the deployment box and about, well, it was December 20th or 21st, a month. He'd been in, in command overseas in Afghanistan for about a month ish, maybe a month and a half. And I was picking up the phone at SEAL Team, back, back home at SEAL Team Two to call him. We have these, you know, there's like red lines and yellow lines, like secret and top secret. I had a yellow line under my desk and, and it rings, it rang right into his bedroom or into the operations center. I knew both phone numbers by heart and I'm like, he's either in his bedroom or in his operations center. And, uh, and I tried to just call him and check in on him.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  And you needed, there was some new policy where you needed a four digit PIN in order to be able to make a call from that. It's Friday afternoon and the team's like, I'm literally like the only guy. I'm not going to call the comms guy to come fix my PIN and give me a new PIN. And, and I was like, I'll just call Job on Monday when I get back in. And, um, the next day, you know, in the bed that I had slept in for the last 10 months, Job took his own life. And, uh.

• 1:56:57Shawn Ryan?

  Sorry, man.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's like I said, we all have, we have a lot of friends, we all have a lot of things like this, but. You know, that was my first roommate in the teams and, um.

• 1:57:08Speaker 02

  And, uh, we went over to his house and I will never get his daughter's screams out of my head of like, he promised he would come home.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  And I looked up in her bedroom and there was the deployment box that my daughter had put on, on her counter.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  And I just thought the rest of those cards don't matter, you know? And my daughter was there at the house consoling her.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  And at, you know.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  And I just remember thinking things like it was myself and one other SEAL who was her godfather and who's an incredible guy. I don't know if he'd want to be named, so I won't right now, but but uh we were the only two in the house like like we were we was it was just us and me, meaning like my it was me, my wife, my daughter and this other SEAL and um and then Job's wife and daughter and uh it was super hard, Sean, and uh we had to quickly figure out things like when do you tell a child that her dad committed suicide? Is it in the moment at that or is it five or 10 years later? You know, and

• 1:58:23Speaker 02

  like, how do you do the how do you do the right thing for her?

• 1:58:28Speaker 02

  And uh and I just and even to this day, man, I just think like I'm the only person who could have heard anything in his voice when I if I could have just got through to him that day. I know. I know that I would have detected it.

• 1:58:46Speaker 02

  And so I get, you know, I I I live knowing that there's more I could have done. You know?

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  But I also don't I try not to I don't beat myself up over it. I know he wouldn't want me to. It's just, you know, but uh but it's just a fact. I could have done more and it is what it is, you know, and uh and uh

• 1:59:12Speaker 02

  and so all we can do is try to learn from that and become better people. And so what did I what do you learn? What? How do you? And this is in one in in in Never Enough, I wrote be intrusive in other people's lives. You know, nowadays, like since things like that, I flat out ask friends like, have you ever considered harm to self? And it's a really uncomfortable question. But I'll take 99 awkward for the one person that's like, yeah, actually, Mike, I have. And in the last whatever 13 years since I've been out of the teams, man, I'm so still super close to not just SEALs, but other military friends. And man, I ask that every time. And I've had dozens of situations where that answer is yes.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  And then it's like, man, how do we get in there and help the person in the in the ways in the best way we can?

• 2:00:02Shawn Ryan?

  Have you?

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  Have I ever considered harm to self? No, I haven't. Uh, my grandfather told me, Mike, don't die for your country. Go on living for it.

• 2:00:13Speaker 02

  I'm here to do the greatest good that I can for others.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  I didn't want to write books, you know, Sean, I I wrote books so that I could help others. And uh, of course, like you heard, the prophets literally, I mean, step I have the nonprofit foundation that I started, the 1162 Foundation, 1162 is the date Kennedy started the SEALs. And uh, 11 kind of signifies renewal, you know, everybody, January 1st, like new year, new me. And so

• 2:00:44Speaker 02

  I don't talk about the names of the women whose mortgages I've paid off. It's their story to tell. I don't have a website with pictures. If you Google the 1162 Foundation, you will find one website that on Give Butter that is a little like if you wanted to donate, you could. There's there is um nothing but just quiet help. When the women, if they decide to tell the story to others, that's their story to tell. In this particular situation, Steph Price has told other people that that that I paid that that my foundation paid off her mortgage. And um and I'm proud of that, you know, I'm I'm I'm in many ways, I think, you know, we were talking at dinner last night, like we can't sit still like we're people who can't sit still and and I

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  I have dozens of other stories that, you know, that are similar to what I just described, as do a lot of people who will hear this, you know, I'm no different than anybody who's lived through the global war on terror kind of years. And um and so I think that

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  I know if I weren't here, what I'd hope my friends would do for my family.

• 2:01:54Speaker 02

  And I just live a life trying to do the same for them.

• 2:01:59Shawn Ryan?

  You're doing a damn good job.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  Trying.

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  But it's rough when you lose that first teammate in the in the your first roommate, your first, you know? And uh, you know, we have a mutual name that we know so well, Chad Wilkinson, your your platoon, like same thing, man, I was Chad's platoon commander. He was on that operation I described in Kosovo. Nobody in the team saw that coming. Like if it happened to Chad, that's when it scared all of us. Because like if it can happen to Chad, it can literally happen to any of us at any time.

• 2:02:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  And that's why I think we have to talk about it. That's why I think we have to become comfortable asking other people like, hey, have you thought about harm to self? Appreciate you asking me, you know, that's what teammates do for each other.

• 2:02:48Shawn Ryan?

  What do you do if they say yes?

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Well, I don't let them go. I don't let them out of my arms to start, you know, and um and I and I dig in a little harder. The first thing is like, what like, do you understanding, does someone actually have a plan? Because yes is one thing. And then is there a plan is another. And then I I'm no expert in this field. I make sure that they talk to somebody who is. You know, but I I quickly try to mobilize resources around that person. You know, not everybody wants to talk, you know, I I think um like, like for me, like I've never considered harm to self, but but um but a lot of people say like, hey, have you ever done talk therapy? I haven't like I don't want to sit around and talk to somebody about, you know,

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  I just, I don't know, I don't think it'll help me. I don't think I have um I just don't, I don't know, I maybe this is arrogant, but it's like, I don't need the help. I'm just gonna drive on and keep trying to do great things for other people. You know, and and um you know, I watched the Alex West, I don't know Alex at all. Holy cow, what an impressive dude. If anybody listening to this hasn't listened to the Alex West episode a couple episodes ago, go listen to that man. He's a great man. You know, pivoting into the the go help people. And then one of the things he talked about was as he's now in the same world that my mom is in.

• 2:04:12Speaker 02

  As Alex helps others, he said something very interesting to me, which was I can, I started out on this path, and I'm paraphrasing here, obviously, sorry, Alex, if you listen, and I don't get this exactly right, but I I started out on this path uh because I wanted to help my fellow teammates and my veterans and first responders and whatnot. But what I realize is my caseload, I can only have about one third of that category because it just drains me too much. You know, I think that's really incredible self-awareness and um and uh and it makes it resonates with me, you know, it's like who who wants to be? You know, I'm a glasses half full, look forward, don't look backward guy, you know, like, how do we just drive on and continue to make great things happen for people?

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  And I think like one of the questions early on uh for the the Patreon was um does does service to others and helping others? I'm paraphrasing here, but help you avoid

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  focusing on yourself. And I think the answer is yes.

• 2:05:15Speaker 02

  You know, like, why am I on a long haul flight to Bangalore, India for work and instead of streaming the seventh show in a some series, why am I working on, you know, my book?

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  Because that book is going to make money for a Gold Star Widow who doesn't have a house paid off right now. Or that book is like the words on the page will hopefully help somebody. You know?

• 2:05:42Speaker 02

  So how can we use our time for anything other than doing the best that we can for others?

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  Sorry, that was a monologue.

• 2:05:52Shawn Ryan?

  All good. Well put. Let's go back to Iraq deployment.

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:59Shawn Ryan?

  With 10.

• 2:06:02Shawn Ryan?

  Lot of significant stuff happened on that deployment.

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:05Shawn Ryan?

  How did it start?

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  Well, gosh, it started with our advanced party. Couple of guys from the team who went out early to augment SEAL Team Four, who was there before us. And uh and it was an operation where there was a heavy, intense exchange of gunfire and

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  I don't know, to my brothers of the team, I hope I'm not mixing operations right here, but that was the operation where Mike Day got shot like 27 times. We had a guy from our team get shot through the arm.

• 2:06:40Speaker 02

  There was a guy named Clark Schwedler who was killed in action. I didn't know Clark, but I've learned about him since. He seems amazing. So like, right before we deployed, we knew it was serious. And and so it started before we even got on our first planes overseas because, you know, there were very serious incidents happening. And then as soon as we got over there, there were 35 Marines killed in the first 30 days I was that our our task force was there in Fallujah. Some of them getting, you know, just at on watch at some outpost at 3 o'clock in the afternoon in broad daylight, you know, some I don't know, some Marine giving another Marine a haircut at an outpost and takes a round through the head or, you know, like, those are the things that were happening. And it was and some were were were

• 2:07:26Speaker 02

  all kinds of different, but losses, but the Marines were taking heavies in in 07.

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  And uh, I went down to the Marine who was in charge and I said, hey, sir, I've got one of the world's best snipers and I've got a really capable force. We want to help you to clean up this problem. So that your great Marines, we can take some pressure off of your great Marines. And dude, I don't want to use this guy's name, but like he said, no, we'll solve our own problems.

• 2:07:56Speaker 02

  And I was just like, he was one rank higher. I was Lieutenant Commander. This guy was a a lieutenant colonel, you know, Marine Lieutenant Colonel.

• 2:08:05Speaker 02

  And I was like, sir, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

• 2:08:09Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  We're here to help you. And your ego isn't going to let SEALs go help the Marines. I go, I want you to think about, it was just me and him, just he and I. And I said, I want you to think about what your answer just was and ask if that should be your real answer. And if that's what serves your Marines best.

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  I'll be back tomorrow.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  And I went back to his office the next day. And I said, hey, sir, I just, sir, let's de-escalate. You're in your battle space, you're the, you know, you're the, you're the, the, the HMFC, you know, the, the dude in charge.

• 2:08:50Speaker 02

  And I'm here to help. I know I came on strong.

• 2:08:55Speaker 02

  But please read me coming on strong as my unit's desire to help your unit. Can we start again?

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he was like, hey, Mike, thanks, man. He goes, also, like, I also was too quick to,

• 2:09:13Speaker 02

  and I let ego get in the way. And I was like, thank you. How can we help? Let's talk about it. Let's get our best guys together in a room. And let's figure out what we can do together.

• 2:09:24Speaker 02

  And then, uh, and we just got after it, man. Like, it was night after night after night. It was vampire hours. It was just sunsets. SEAL platoon's only question was, do you get in vehicles? Or do you get in helicopters? Do you go straight to the, to the, to the X? Do you offset infill and walk in? You know, it's just like, these were the, like, but it was just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And, uh,

• 2:09:50Speaker 02

  and it was, it was heavy. And,

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  you know, and the other thing that was happening was that, you know, we'd be up all night, the, the, the guys would come home. Now, I'm the deputy commander responsible for a lot of different outstations in, in Anbar Province, Iraq. But I'm co-located with a SEAL

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  troop. I don't remember if we call them task forces or troops, but two SEAL platoons were co-located with me in Fallujah. And

• 2:10:18Speaker 02

  everybody was going out every night, but that, that, that group, like every third night, like I said, I would head out with them. And I'd, I'd joke around and be like, hey, fellows, I already wrote my award. I just got to go do the operation, you know?

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  And

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  and it was just full of really good dudes. You've had DJ Shipley on this, you know, sit in this chair. You've, you've, we've got a lot of guys who aren't here also from, from that, that troop. Kyle Milliken, uh, Mark Weiss, you know, um, I, I, I don't need to name everybody right now, but the, uh, there was one, as we were there, we would sleep from like, I don't know, six in the morning until maybe 11:00 in the morning, 10:00 in the morning, and just get right after the intelligence cycle and get ready to go out again.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, Fallujah had this Fallujah Surgical, which was where all the level one trauma cases came and, and, or the KIA's came, made it back to Fallujah Surgical. And the loudspeaker would constantly be like, anybody with A positive blood, come immediately to Fallujah Surgical. Like, it was every, probably three times a day, there was a call for blood. And, you know, when you're only sleeping literally three, four hours a night and your, your blood type gets called,

• 2:11:42Speaker 02

  and you lay there and you're like, dude, there's like a thousand 500 Marines on this base. Like, do I really have to get my ass up? You know, and like, that's a hard pro, like, that's a hard problem. You know, because you, you get up and now you, you're compromising your sleep for your own performance the next day. You're a bad teammate and bad American, not missing an opportunity to go help someone else. You can only give blood so many times. There's only so many people that can give blood so often. And there was one night where I was like, my, my, um, blood type got called and I was like, it was just me. I just jumped in the truck. It was like, you know, you know, I'm just going to go up there. And

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  I'll never forget, under like the red lens, the darkness, like the, the tenty kind of like, like, you know, body parts everywhere, being like, I gotta give blood to whoever needs it. I walk in thinking I'm like the only guy from probably the SEAL task force that's going up. And I, and I look in a chair, not unlike, I mean, not this quality, but this kind of like sit back and, and there's Kyle Milliken already sitting there with a needle in his arm, giving his blood. One of my teammates. And it was funny because like Kyle and I didn't even talk. We just kind of did that, like nod, you know? And that dude was the man. And, uh, he was later killed in Somalia on a mission.

• 2:13:02Speaker 02

  And it was, that affected me a lot, affected a lot of us, just one of the greatest guys on the planet.

• 2:13:08Shawn Ryan?

  Man, it was that bad. They were calling out people to donate blood every night.

• 2:13:13Speaker 02

  Three times a day.

• 2:13:16Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was. And it's really hard to figure out, like, do you go or not?

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  And, uh, you know, this, on, on that deployment cycle, you know, um, we had, things mostly went very well, the whole deployment. You know, I, I wasn't on the operation the night that you think, you know, we both have a mutual friend, Jason Redmond, Matt Roberts, you know, there was an operation where Jason got shot a whole bunch of times. And he's a, just such an incredible American and.

• 2:13:46Shawn Ryan?

  Do you want to talk about that?

• 2:13:47Speaker 02

  We can. Uh, I mean, there's a lot out there about that. Um, from my perspective, we can, I mean, sure, I'm not opposed to it.

• 2:13:56Speaker 02

  You know, ultimately, every, every operation that happened was my decision of do we say, do we go or no go? I didn't go on the op that night. I wasn't out there, but I was watching, you know, the whole thing unfold from the operation center and, and, uh,

• 2:14:11Speaker 02

  amazing heroism. Amazing heroism. You know?

• 2:14:17Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the most heroic thing you've seen?

• 2:14:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:14:21Shawn Ryan?

  What is the most heroic thing you've seen?

• 2:14:25Speaker 02

  When I were, I think, oh, there are a lot, but I'd say

• 2:14:34Speaker 02

  it depends if I know the, if the answer has to be, I know the person or I don't know the person. You know, and so I'd, I'd, I'd answer it kind of two ways. I'd say on deployment, I had to, we had an operation in, when I, sorry, uh, in command of SEAL Team Two in Afghanistan. It was, it was a lot of kinetic activity, a lot of engagements with the Taliban. You know, a lot of governance too, a lot of tea drinking and speeches in villages and stuff like that. It wasn't all, it was, it was different lines of operation, but the, on that deployment, we had somebody step on a, a pressure, pressure plate IED and, uh, lost most of his leg. The next guy, and these are guys I know super well. These are guys I'm responsible for.

• 2:15:19Speaker 02

  And, you know, just completely, I don't want to be too gruesome, but like the most charred, gruesome, black face you can possibly imagine. And, and, and the, the, the question for the platoon commander on scene is always like, do you send your medic back with the, the wounded? And it was about a, you know, eight or 10 minute helo flight back to my location where I had three doctors and about a 15, 20 person medical staff on, under my command. And so we were that highest level of care before they moved back to Germany. So we got a lot of mass casualties from not areas that weren't under my command, come to my, my, my element. But this particular one, we had two SEALs,

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  uh, who were, who were wounded in action. And I would say not a month earlier, you know, I had told the docs, like, listen, on a night when it's quiet, when there's nothing going on, I want to come down and scrub in for an operation with you guys and just appreciate you and understand life from your perspective. And this guy Tucker came running up to the talk. He said, hey, sir, we, we, we're treating some Afghan soldiers, the, the friendly, friendly soldiers that were kind of on our team, if you will. And he said, we're going to need to, he's got a broken, um, a broken leg below the knee. And just come on down. It's going to be a, a, we're going to put a, um, what do you call it? Like a metal tube in his leg to put his bones back together.

• 2:16:45Speaker 02

  So I get down there, I scrub in and they have a Sharpie drawn on his knee and they hand me the, the scalpel. And they're like, just cut his kneecap off. And I was like, okay, I said scrub in, but like, I don't want to mess this guy up. And they're like, no, no, no, we're going to supervise this. You're going to do it. So I cut the kneecap, the guy's kneecap off. They handed me this big ass drill with a drill bit that goes all the way down the inside of the bone. I drilled the inside of his bone on his, on his leg. And then I hammered the, what do you call it? Like a,

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  like a metal tube, like metal tube that basically that fixes the inside of the bone. And then sewed them up. It was by maybe a three hour operation. And I was the, the, like, I'd say I was, I was the lead doctor, of course, not lead. But like, I was the primary hands-on.

• 2:17:33Shawn Ryan?

  Surgeon.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. And it was some of the best experience that I think I've ever had. You know, I had done the tactical first responder, you know, the shoot the goats and bring them back and try to make them live as long as you can. And all that stuff with live tissue training with, and, uh, and, and nothing replace, nothing gets you ready for humans, like working on humans. So I had such appreciation for how good our medic, our docs were.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  That the next, like a couple nights later, the task force that the two SEAL platoons located with me in Taran Kout, Afghanistan, at our headquarters were like playing Xbox that night. They weren't going out on a mission. And for the guys, I pulled aside and I'm like, guys, what you doing tonight? And they're like, hey, we're, you know, I don't know, like our 40th game of our Madden Football League or something. And I'm like, wrong, wrong. I want you guys to go into the, the medical unit and just hang out there tonight and you're just gonna learn. And sure enough, some mass, you know, there were some Afghans that got blown up and things and they were hands on, not quite like what I just described, but like they, they, they saw all the doctors in action. And all four of these guys, the next day were like,

• 2:18:48Speaker 02

  sir, thank you for making us go in there. We never would have volunteered, wouldn't have thought of it. But like, man, that was, that was a really educational experience and, and thank you. So a month later, when this operation, these guys got blown up, two of them had already been in that unit helping. So even though they couldn't see and they were almost out of it, they knew where they were. And months after, you know, after they kind of, I saw them again, months later, they were like, you know, they were so comforted knowing where they were because they'd already been in there. And, um, and I met, there were only maybe three or four SEALs in the headquarters, the night that, that they got blown up. Because every, we had to throw the kitchen sink at the, out, out, out in the field. It was like me, the command master chief and like,

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  I don't even know, maybe one or two other SEALs on the, on the, in the headquarters. And, you know, when you get mass casualty call, like, I'm, any of the SEALs are some of the more medically trained people on the, on the thing. So I, I went and I met the bird. And there was no medic on the bird coming back. It was just tourniquets that had everything tied off. And one of the guys who was, whose leg was missing to about here, had like four tourniquets on and dude, arterial bleeding, none of them were working. And so like, I just right away had to get my hand in the middle of his leg, stop the arterial bleeding.

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  He's yelling at me. He's got a fentanyl lollipop in his mouth and, uh, and, uh, and he's still like screaming, Mr. Hayes, have them put me out, have them put me out, you know, and I'm like, Bo, wait, then I, I just remembered like, I'm not a doctor, but like, understanding someone's response to pain is a very important medical, um, set of like information that the doctors need. So I'm like, I'm not gonna like give this guy more fentanyl or, or morphine or anything. Like I'm, I basically carried him while stopping the bleeding. And my master chief drove us down to the, to the, to the gurneys down in the medical unit and, and there were so many people down there that like, I had to cut the rest of his leg off, you know, and so, so when you say like, that's a dude who,

• 2:20:56Speaker 02

  you know,

• 2:21:01Speaker 02

  who I cared a lot for, you know, and, and, and, um, and I knew really, really well, like I knew his, his wife at the time, you know, my wife knew her and, uh, and there you are cutting off a guy's leg, you know, you know, that sucks. You, you don't think about in the moment, like in the moment, you're just like, you do what you have to do. Like there's no, it sucks in the moment. I mean, and I'll never forget looking at this other guy's,

• 2:21:25Shawn Ryan?

  how do you cut it off?

• 2:21:27Speaker 02

  I just, um, the doctor, like he would come, this, this guy Tucker came over and said, here's what we need off.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  You know, he, he, he kind of guided me. I wouldn't have known what to do. Like he was just like, he knew I, because that operation I did a month ago or three weeks ago or whatever, he knew I could handle it. And he's got, he's working other mass casualty stuff. You know, and so

• 2:21:50Speaker 02

  it, it was basically like, he was gonna be a at the knee amputee for the rest of his life. And so it, it, like you just, and the, they needed to get into basically, you know, I guess, not I guess, like cauterize, cauterize what was left and, and stop the bleeding. So they needed to cut some back in order to cauterize the wound. And I, I just followed the, it was paint by numbers. You know, the guy was like, hey, do this, do this. And then he'd come back and check on me every little bit. And I'm just like, hacking away, you know?

• 2:22:22Shawn Ryan?

  Hacking away with what?

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  A scalpel, like a proper medical, I mean, I'm in the unit, like, yeah. I mean, yeah. So that like,

• 2:22:29Shawn Ryan?

  Need to cut his leg and clean off?

• 2:22:32Speaker 02

  Well, he was missing his, it was all like, I don't want to be too gruesome, but like it was,

• 2:22:37Speaker 02

  like he came in with it like here, but so jacked up that everything from knee to here needed to come off.

• 2:22:45Speaker 02

  So, um,

• 2:22:50Speaker 02

  but I was like, you know, I know, I knew he was gonna be okay. He, that was his only wound. And I'm like, he's gonna live, he's gonna be an amputee. And it turned out he actually, he, he had his other leg at the time. They needed to take his other leg, actually, his other leg from the knee down when he went back to Germany. Because there was nerve damage that we didn't know about at the time. He's a double amputee now. And, um, another SEAL who was on that operation, like, I think maybe the most gruesome thing I saw was looking into his eyes. I don't want to, I, I, for the sake of people listening, I won't even describe it, but it was the worst thing I've ever seen.

• 2:23:26Shawn Ryan?

  Looking into his eyes?

• 2:23:27Speaker 02

  Cause his face was blown up. And he couldn't see. Uh, I'll just leave it at that. I mean, right now he's got partial vision in one eye and he himself is a doctor now.

• 2:23:40Speaker 02

  So he's,

• 2:23:43Speaker 02

  and, uh, what kind of sucks is that as I bring up all these guys, like I haven't talked to either of these guys in like, one of them, I traded voicemails with him maybe three months ago or so, as he officially finished residency to become a doctor. And you know, it's like, you just can't, you just have this desire to kind of keep up with everybody and help everybody. But at this point, you just know so many people like this, it's impossible. You know, but that same deployment, we,

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  I know, I know we were on Iraq and I'm on Afghanistan now. So we were on O7 Iraq with like, I'm jump thematically, it's all the same. But, uh, in, on that 2012 deployment to Afghanistan, there, the, the mass casualties came up to our spot and, and the SOTF South commander became a really, we were just, there was no Green Beret SEAL bullshit. It was one team, you know, how do we help each other? You know, it's like, and that's what I love. I have such respect for the Army Green Berets, man. They were just some really, really, really awesome dudes. Um, you know, when I was younger, it was like, like when you first graduate from BUDS, it's like, I'm a SEAL, you're no one else, you're not.

• 2:24:52Speaker 02

  And the faster you lose that mentality is the beginning of your success. Until you lose that mentality, you weren't successful. And, um, and so we had, I remember one night where like this, this guy Rich who ran SOTF South would call me and he's like, Mike, I'm sending you, you know, three WIA because the, he little, the helicopter ride was closer to my medical unit than to his in Kandahar.

• 2:25:17Speaker 02

  And these guys were massively shot and blown up. And I remember one dude, like I physically was peeling, um, frag out of his intestines that was outside of his body. You know, and, and, uh, and, and what, what goes through my head sometimes is like, man, I don't even remember that guy's name. I knew their names for a while. But there's some human out there like who was an SF dude at that deployment who, you know, I had my hands on his intestines trying to help clean him up and

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  I just don't even know who he is now. You know, it's really weird. Like that, like that combat stuff, it, it gets, it gets pretty real and pretty heavy pretty quick.

• 2:26:04Speaker 02

  I mean, another,

• 2:26:08Speaker 02

  can I, can I share another interesting like story from that deployment on the, uh, so that, that SEAL Team Two deployment? You know, we're on, while we're on, like, I think the people listening, you know, you read about combat or you read things and you know intellectually that it's hard on people, but the, uh, I think sometimes some of these stories making it real, like, I think it's probably net helpful. I mean, you don't have to, you can always tune out if you don't want to hear things, but uh, I mean,

• 2:26:38Speaker 02

  there was one situation where there was a, a truck, a, a army vehicle was blown up. And the guys got their bell rung really bad. They came to our medical unit. I went down to, to, to see, to check in on them. The medical unit was literally like

• 2:26:57Speaker 02

  80 yards from our operation center. So it was a very easy, you know, like crunchy rock walk, you know, with no lights and everything. And you just learn the pattern of how to get there and,

• 2:27:08Speaker 02

  and, uh, and I went in there and I was like, okay, thank God, these guys are okay. They, they were two from a, an ODA team that I had not had any knowledge of. They were part of the, the SOTF South Task Force. And one of the guys' bell was rung pretty bad. And I pulled the docs aside and I was like, hey, guys, like, what's like, I don't want to send someone back to combat if they're so like excessively concussed in like in TBI land, you know, traumatic brain injury land, like let's make sure we do the right thing here. And on this one, they were like, you know, sir, this is like a 50 50 call. Like this is like, the docs, even the amazing docs that we had, they were like,

• 2:27:52Speaker 02

  this is truly 50 50. You got, they're like, boss, you gotta make the call on this one. And I was like, who am I to make this decision? You know, and so I don't want to use this guy's name for a reason I'll get into in a second. Remember this so vividly. But I grabbed his rifle, his kit and you know, I'm a commander. This guy's like a Army E4, E5 or something. He's, you know, yes or no, sir, three bags full. That's not who I am and how I live and whatnot, but you know, military hierarchy and whatnot. I grabbed his stuff and he's very uncomfortable with me carrying his helmet, his, his rifle and his, his kit. And I'm like, no, listen dude, like let me do this for you. We're gonna go back to my office.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  I had a little, in our plywood palace kind of office is like four in the morning. There weren't a lot of ops. There was not a, there was, I sat down with just him. And I said, I gotta give this guy a fake name so I can say his name. I'll just say, uh, I'll just, I'll just, uh, let me think. I'll call him,

• 2:28:50Speaker 02

  uh, I'll call, just call him Ed, whatever.

• 2:28:54Speaker 02

  So I'm like, hey, Ed, listen, here's the deal. You got your bell rung really bad. I don't want to send you back. If, um, you're gonna have any sort of long-term damage, I don't want to send you back to the unit. I also don't, I also want to respect that that might be all that you want.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  And I just want to talk to you, like, how are you doing? Like you, you can tell me, I will never let this conversation go anywhere. Do you want to go to Germany and get checked out?

• 2:29:26Speaker 02

  And he said, sir, that would kill me.

• 2:29:32Speaker 02

  Like, if I can't serve with my unit, I might as well be dead. And I was like, whoa.

• 2:29:40Speaker 02

  And I said, wow, like, the dedication this dude had to his teammates was simultaneously not surprising, but also so impressive to me. And I leaned in and I asked him the same questions a hundred ways to hear like the little nuance of like, is he just, is he bullshitting me? Like, is he just trying to give that reflexive answer that any soldier knows they're supposed to give? Or what is it? Does he really mean it? Because you got to draw that out, you know?

• 2:30:10Speaker 02

  And I felt like I had a really confident picture of what this guy wanted to do and he really wanted to go back to his unit. And I was like, thinking to myself, okay, the docs are saying 50/50, like, he can choose. And so I said, all right, hey, I leaned in and I said, I actually put my hand on his shoulder, I still remember very, very distinctly. And I said, hey, Ed, I got a question for you, dude.

• 2:30:35Speaker 02

  What's a hero?

• 2:30:38Speaker 02

  And he's like, sir?

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  And I said, you know what? You're my hero. Like, being able to serve with somebody like you, who just wants to get back to your teammates and help serve your teammates? I go, you're a hero.

• 2:30:55Speaker 02

  I said, let me walk you to the bird and we'll get you out of here and back to your unit. Okay, so he goes, he goes, flies back to his unit.

• 2:31:03Speaker 02

  Three weeks later, somewhere in sort of south, there's another mass casualty situation, three guys come to my medical unit. Two of them need to be put out right away, major surgery. Another guy is like, he's only shot like through the ass, you know, and he's trying desperately to give intel to me. So that like, because he's thinking, what can I still be doing for my friends? And hey, here's the situation, like, he didn't know, like, the whole situation was under control. But he's just out of like pure desire and intent to do the most that he can. He's trying to fill me in and I'm just letting him, letting him run.

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he said, but you know, we had on this op, we have three WIA, me and my two guys here, but we had one KIA. And I was like, oh shit, okay, that sucks. And I said, well, like, how did this happen? And he said, well, it was a, um, a green on blue situation, meaning an Afghan that, you know what that means, but for everybody, an Afghan that we were working with and training as a good Afghan

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  turned his weapon on to the SF guys and just started, from an elevated position, just started shooting at them nonstop. And so this green on blue situation, those are really, really hard to stop. And he said that there was a guy who, in their unit, who proactively, like, I don't know the exact details, but basically proactively made a movement to try to go shoot this guy and take him out. And that guy was killed in action. And I said, hey, I wouldn't know who your teammate is, I don't know your guys, but, uh, but let's honor him for a second. And what was his name?

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  And it was Ed.

• 2:32:54Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 2:32:57Speaker 02

  Who I had just sent back three weeks earlier.

• 2:32:58Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:05Speaker 02

  Those are the decisions you have to make, you know?

• 2:33:09Speaker 02

  And Ed would be here if I didn't, if I would have sent him to Germany.

• 2:33:16Shawn Ryan?

  Or maybe he wouldn't be.

• 2:33:17Speaker 02

  Or maybe he wouldn't be, right? But you know, Sean, like,

• 2:33:24Speaker 02

  I didn't prepare much for this conversation. I was just like, let it fly and just think, but I did think about this particular story that I'm talking about right now and

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  something I'll share, which is like, I'm not, I don't think I'll ever really want to read the comments on, on whether it's Instagram or TikTok or wherever, or on this kind of, but, but something I'd love help on from people listening is that,

• 2:33:48Speaker 02

  you know, I've never told his wife this story.

• 2:33:52Speaker 02

  And I've always wrestled with whether I should or I shouldn't.

• 2:33:59Speaker 02

  The argument for it is just be transparent and as forthcoming

• 2:34:05Speaker 02

  as possible. And I'm a very transparent person, usually, by default. The risk

• 2:34:13Speaker 02

  is that I open up old wounds,

• 2:34:17Speaker 02

  I cause frustration from that spouse, prior spouse to be frustrated that he decided to go back when he had a ticket out.

• 2:34:30Speaker 02

  And like, my only thing that drives me is what's the greatest good here?

• 2:34:35Speaker 02

  And I don't know the answer. And because I've never been able to, like, answer this for myself, I've always erred on the side of inaction rather than action.

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  Anyways, just a, another struggle.

• 2:34:55Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 2:34:57Shawn Ryan?

  I think you should tell her.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:02Shawn Ryan?

  I think she would want to know.

• 2:35:09Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know?

• 2:35:10Speaker 02

  I, I know her name. I've never talked to her, I've never contacted her, I know how to find her. I don't know where she is now, I have no idea, but I know I can find her.

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  I get to where, I get to like, when you say that, I'm like, yeah, you're right, I totally should, like, let me, let me go do that later today.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  At the same time, like, what happens is, like, I'll get conviction, feeling like it's the right thing, but I'm like, man, like,

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  could mess her up.

• 2:35:42Shawn Ryan?

  It's been a long time.

• 2:35:44Speaker 02

  True.

• 2:35:49Shawn Ryan?

  Did he have kids?

• 2:35:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:35:56Speaker 02

  But that dude was a hero.

• 2:36:10Shawn Ryan?

  It's a tough call.

• 2:36:12Speaker 02

  It is, right? You can see both sides, right?

• 2:36:19Speaker 02

  I'm usually pretty decisive. I haven't, obviously haven't been on this one.

• 2:36:24Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think he would want her to know?

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  I don't know, I didn't know him well enough. You know, I only knew him from my conversation for an hour, one random night at four in the morning in Afghanistan. That's literally the only time I've ever talked to the guy.

• 2:36:38Shawn Ryan?

  Would you want your wife to know?

• 2:36:42Speaker 02

  That's an interesting question, that I haven't thought of it that way. But I want her to know.

• 2:36:52Speaker 02

  But I want my wife to know that I could have come home and didn't.

• 2:36:59Speaker 02

  Probably, but I don't know.

• 2:37:09Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 2:37:14Shawn Ryan?

  You thought he was a hero because of it?

• 2:37:18Speaker 02

  Well, I thought he was.

• 2:37:19Shawn Ryan?

  Probably will too.

• 2:37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:24Speaker 02

  I think you're right.

• 2:37:34Speaker 02

  I'll keep thinking on it.

• 2:37:51Shawn Ryan?

  Do you want to go back to?

• 2:37:54Shawn Ryan?

  Team 10?

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were back in Iraq and I know, I jumped to Afghanistan.

• 2:38:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just was really, I just think back on that time and I just think how fortunate was I? Uh, there was, to serve with such men. You know, the, uh, there was, there's a, is a, I mean, I think a funny story, but first of all, even among all that, we played some crazy, good practical jokes. Like I, I know we're not in the practical joke mode right now, but like, we were tight, you know, and, um,

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  but the, uh,

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  the number two most wanted guy in Western Iraq, his name at the time, these things changed all the time, but based on who was captured, killed, or became worse. There was a guy who went by Abu Talha, T A L H A. And, you know, he was always on our like, most wanted list and how can we get him and whatnot. And there was one op where at the last second, I was like, you know what? There's not a lot of other stuff going on. I'm gonna roll out with the guys. There was always, there was, when you go Hilo, you can always, there's always room for one more guy. So I walk in a little bit late, but we've been doing so much that like, you know, we, we were just in such a mode of operating that it wasn't like, hey, I hadn't been in mission planning since, you know, 2:00 PM in the afternoon and it's 11:00 PM getting ready to go out. It was maybe like,

• 2:39:21Speaker 02

  I'm gonna make this up, maybe like 8:00 PM and we're just getting ready to do the brief and it's like 7:55 and I'm like, hey, throw my name on chalk three on bird two or whatever, you know?

• 2:39:31Speaker 02

  So like, okay, cool. And the guy, you know, and I always, always like, I don't need to be the one man or the two man, like put me with the command and control element, like I don't need to be, put me wherever I'm most out of the way, wherever it's like least intrusive and, and, and in this particular night,

• 2:39:47Speaker 02

  I was going, uh, there were two or three buildings that were gonna get hit simultaneously and the command and control element was going to this like little, you know, outstation that looked like some, not like a little shack, if you will, like a, almost like a, where you'd store your lawnmower, if you had a lawnmower in Iraq, you know?

• 2:40:06Speaker 02

  And so it was myself, a guy named Scott, a guy named Jay, and I think that was it, three of us, maybe there was one more. And so as the, the three elements kinda got to their set point for their three different buildings, the three of us made our way to the place where we were going to, uh,

• 2:40:25Speaker 02

  plant the command and control element.

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  The, the three elements kinda do their thing. They, they all go hard at the same time, make, make, for, make noise and, and start the operation at the same time. And myself and the two others start going and I, I realize, I, I see in my, in my, we're all on 100% nods, night vision. I see a little, like an outs, a bed, everybody sleeps outside at that time of year and there's a, a man, a woman and a kid-ish, maybe a 10, 15-year-old, I couldn't tell from that far away. The guy's on the end and I see him roll over and start reaching for a weapon. And I remember back in, in training, at least what I got taught was 21 feet is the magic number. You're 21 feet and closer, you close on the person with a, with a weapon, 20

• 2:41:13Speaker 02

  weight and one feet and further, you, you know, you, this is like, or you, you, you don't, you know, you go, you either shoot or you move the other way or whatever you decide to do. And, um, and, uh, you know, of course, could've just put a round in the guy's head or whatever, but I'm like, man, like, like we're all good shots, but I've got like his daughter in bed right there or, or son, I don't know, and like wife right there and I'm like next to him. And I'm like, there's no need to, to shoot this guy. I, I'm faster than he's gonna be able to get there. And so I remember just saying, J J J, just so somebody would know where I was going. I sprint forward and I make it to the dude to get my foot on it, like basically as he's pulling up his weapon, I basically get my, I don't even remember exactly the physical human moves,

• 2:41:54Speaker 02

  but somehow I got, like I got the weapon back down to the ground, my foot on it, on his arm and the weapon so that it couldn't engage us. And I put my muzzle right on the dude and, um, and basically, you know, Jay comes up and we would zip tie the guy and, and, and we bring him and, and we, once the, all the targets are secure and we're sorting through, who did we find, who did we not find?

• 2:42:19Speaker 02

  That dude was Abu Talha.

• 2:42:21Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 2:42:23Speaker 02

  And I talked so much shit. I'm like, fellas, when you need the officer to come and grab Abu Talha, like you just let me know. I just wrote my award, you know, I did some shooter statements of how cool I am, you know, I never let the guys, the whole rest of the deployment, man, I was like, you know, it was all kinds of shit talking and it was so fun. It was, but you know, you know as well as I do and anybody listening, dude, blind lock, blind lock, like it's not, not skill at all. And, uh, but we, we had, we had a lot of, um, we had a lot of good times and,

• 2:43:01Speaker 02

  and impactful times. Like we made a, well, at the time, we thought we made a difference and you know, we, I've, I've heard some of your prior episodes and I'm probably somewhat aligned of like, you know, the answering the what is, was it all worth it question is so complicated and multi-layered. I don't know if we wanna get it. I don't wanna necessarily go there unless you really want to, but,

• 2:43:21Speaker 02

  but nonetheless, like we had a mission and, and that group at that time was really good and,

• 2:43:28Speaker 02

  and then, uh, you know, as an officer, like you don't get to do the next deployment at that level. You gotta go find some other job to go do. And that's where I decided to, I, I applied for the White House, a thing called the White House Fellowship where you, at an atypically young age, you get a, a really senior job in, in somewhere in the executive branch and, uh, that was kinda the next chapter.

• 2:43:53Shawn Ryan?

  Well, before we go there, let's take a break.

• 2:43:58Shawn Ryan?

  Fall is here. Football is back. And that means people are going to end up in your kitchen, whether you planned for it or not. Burgers before kickoff, wings before the game, breakfast before a full day of football, or just trying to feed everybody hanging around the house. And when you're cooking like that, bad pans make everything harder. And that's why I use Hexclad. Hexclad gives you the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick in one pan. You get great heat control, easy food release and cleanup that does not turn into an all-night project. And you don't have to baby these pans. They're metal, utensil safe, dishwasher safe,

• 2:44:43Shawn Ryan?

  oven safe up to 900 degrees and built with stay cool stainless steel handles. If you're ready for a full upgrade, Hexclad's 12-piece set gives you the pans, sauce pans, stock pot and lids you need for hosting family dinners and better meals during the week. And if you just want the everyday essentials, the six-piece set is a great place to start. Over 1 million customers, more than 50,000 five-star reviews and every Hexclad product comes with a lifetime warranty. Don't go into football season with cookware that makes game day meals harder than they need to be. Upgrade your kitchen with Hexclad and make cooking, hosting and cleanup

• 2:45:26Shawn Ryan?

  easier all season long. For a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off your order with our exclusive link. Just head to hexclad.com/srs. Support our show and check them out at H E X C L A D dot com forward slash S R S. Make sure to let them know we sent you.

• 2:45:53Speaker 01

  In deepest jungle, Cartier's panther spies a wandering bird that circles the skies. A lovebird, lost and missing his mate, is far from his path in lonely state. Dry your tears, now there's a start. Follow my steps to heal your heart. Panther stalks through the leaves with silent grace. Through the power of scent, she finds the trace. Behold, two lovers reunite in the skies. A most precious thrill sparkling in their eyes. Together forever, they shine each day, bound by the beauty of Cartier.

• 2:46:37Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Mike, we're back from the break and I think we're getting ready to get into the White House and the Bush administration. How did that happen?

• 2:46:48Speaker 02

  I applied for a program called the White House Fellowship toward the tail end of my time at SEAL Team Ten, because in the officer career path, you basically can only deploy so much. You can rise up to kind of be the third in charge of a team, then you need a diversity tour, then you can be the second in charge of a team, then you need a diversity tour. So my first diversity tour was graduate school. And then for my next diversity tour, I was like, let me apply for this White House Fellowship. I learned about that, actually, when I was at the Kennedy School in Cambridge, Mass. There was a guy who was a White House Fellow who came and spoke about how cool the program was. There were probably 150 Harvard students that sat there drooling about how cool this

• 2:47:33Speaker 02

  program is. And honestly, I sat there and I was like, I'll just do that in three years. I'm just gonna do that. It's very competitive. 5,000 people apply, they pick 14 a year, you know, plus or minus. And it was weird. I don't mean to sound like the president of my own fan club or arrogant, I'm not. But it's like in life when you're like, I will go do that. And when the time is right. And after my Iraq deployment, it was the right time. And through my name in the hat, you know, stayed up nights and weekends and putting together a very hard application package. It's, there were probably 10 essays or so, and some of them are the 200-word essays, which it's way harder to write a 200-word essay than to write a book about yourself. You know, every word counts.

• 2:48:17Speaker 02

  And I remember one of the questions was, why do you want to be a White House Fellow? Very distinctly remember my answer was that I don't just want to help people, I want to help people to help others. And that way, you have that nonlinear positive impact on the world. So I just saw that as a really great program to continue to build the foundation. Even now in my life, I feel like I'm still building the foundation and the walls and the roof can come later, you know? And I just think if you lean into the really hard things and that's where all the learning and growth comes from, and I just saw the White House Fellowship as that.

• 2:48:55Speaker 02

  And the program is based on, it's been around since the early 60s, but you basically spend a year at a very atypically senior role in government, in the executive branch somewhere. The application or the selection process is 5,000 written applications or so. It's all alumni that read and get it down to about 100 applications. You have regional interviews for one day with all pretty esteemed panelists that do the interviewing, many of them White House Fellow alumni or some prominent people. It's like, call it like 100 people in 10 cities around the country, that eventually

• 2:49:37Speaker 02

  each city kind of pushes two or three people forward for the finals, the final interviews. If you make the round of the finals, you just move from 100 down to 32. And in those three days, they're gonna pick the 14 from the 32. So any of the 32 could be White House Fellows, but what they're really doing is also kind of curating a class, different experiences, different kind of backgrounds. Probably my class had three, one, two, three, four, four out of the 14 were military. 10 of them had nothing to do with the military.

• 2:50:09Shawn Ryan?

  Oh shit, so this isn't even just military?

• 2:50:11Speaker 02

  Oh, this is like, like one of my-

• 2:50:13Shawn Ryan?

  The whole country?

• 2:50:14Speaker 02

  Whole country. Like, one of my classmates, Dan Fletcher, was like, mad professor, hair up to here, awesome dude, like, actually funny vegetarian story about Dan if we get into it, but this guy, Dan Fletcher, was like the youngest tenured professor at Berkeley, and he was, like, when I met him, I'm like, hey, what's your work? And he's like, oh, I'm just trying to reverse the O2 to CO2 cycle, and you know, like, okay. It's like, like people that are just amazing, amazing experiences. And so, the year is, once you're selected, the year is kind of founded on three things. One is, like, I get to spend the year with 13 really amazing people and learn from them.

• 2:50:56Speaker 02

  The other are like speakers where you get to go into the Oval with the President, the Vice President, Cabinet Secretaries, Supreme Court Justices, and you get, you know, off-the-record conversations that are totally candid, and you just learn from being around these people in these really amazing roles. And then the third pillar is you get a real job for the year. Now, you get some agency over where you work. What happens is your name gets put in the ring across a bunch of departments and agencies, and any department or agency will say, I want to talk, interview these four people. So I had interviews at Department of Commerce, Small Business Administration, Department of State, National Security Council.

• 2:51:39Speaker 02

  And the biggest question for the year that we all have to make is, do you go deeper in what you've already done, or do you diversify and learn something new? I had an offer to kind of, to be, to run the desk in the Department of Commerce that was responsible for all trade with China. And I was like, man, like, that would be really cool. I was super interested in that. Then the next day, I went and I had an interview with the National Security Council with the Deputy National Security Advisor, this guy Jim Jeffries at the time. And small little office in the basement of the West Wing. And he said, hey, Mike, you know, nice to meet you, great to hear, fellow, congratulations, and I'm sure you'll have a great place to land. I've got an open role that is an incredibly senior role. It's the Director for Defense Policy and Strategy.

• 2:52:22Speaker 02

  It's a really important role. I'm interviewing two real people who've been in DC their whole lives, and I'm just interviewing you in the off-chance that, you know, like, just kind of, almost, my word's not his, like, you're a throwaway interview kind of thing to interview. And so he said, for example, Mike, you know, this role will be responsible for the START Treaty. Well, excuse me, he said, this role will be responsible for all international treaties that the nation has with anywhere around the globe, among many, many other things. But, you know, the START Treaty, for example, runs out later this year, and so one of the things that'll need to get done is we need to rewrite the new START Treaty, and it's stuck in the interagency right now. What do you know about the START Treaty?

• 2:53:04Speaker 02

  And I looked at him and I said, well, sir, I know how to spell it. And I was like dead serious. And he was like so taken aback, because in Washington DC, in many places, there's just a bunch of like chest thumpers that are like, listen to how smart I am. And I think it, like, so, like, it was so, such a different answer. And I said, listen, like, let me explain, like, I've been a Navy SEAL for a really long time. I'm the guy who knows how to run a process to get to the best answer. Like, when you have a SEAL operation, just because I'm the commander, in fact, the chances of me having the best idea as the commander is almost zero.

• 2:53:48Speaker 02

  I just run the process that gets all of the ideas for a mission together, and get the best idea for the mission to rise to the top and select it and then execute it as well as possible. So when you say you're interviewing, you're not actually interviewing for a START Treaty expert. What you're actually interviewing for is somebody who knows how to run a process and lead to an outcome. And he called me like, or actually, he didn't call me, like, the office for the White House Fellows called me the next day, and they're like, they really want you to go to National Security Council and take that job. And I was like, geez, I have really two great, great options, but, you know, the opportunity to work in the West Wing and run meetings in the Situation Room, you can't say no to that.

• 2:54:30Speaker 02

  And I was like, I'll just go deeper in national security, and I'll learn a lot more and be a lot better for it. And so, probably the most, I'll say, transformational year of my life, from a growth perspective. You know, I had done a lot in the SEALs, but to see how the national policy process really works and to be part of it was incredible with the START Treaty. For example, I ran my first meeting, maybe on the 10th day or so at the White-

• 2:55:00Shawn Ryan?

  What was the START Treaty?

• 2:55:01Speaker 02

  Sorry, I should have, thank you.

• 2:55:03Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know more about it other than how to spell it yet?

• 2:55:06Speaker 02

  I know a little, I know, I now know what it stands for, that's about it, you know? It's the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty. It's the treaty that governed the, basically the nuclear portfolio between the US and Russia.

• 2:55:22Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:55:23Speaker 02

  So it was, it was the treaty for all things US/Russia. Operationally deployed strategic nuclear warheads, how many, what type, how can you, what are the limits that each country can do? Because, you know, ideally, you don't want an arms race with nuclear weapons. You know, it's, once each country has mutually assured destruction, why do you want to pour a bunch of resources into seeing who can have more weapons? Like, just as a nation, both nations are better off if you can come to a verifiable limit for both nations. Now, you could ask, is it actually verifiable? And we could have that conversation, like, that's a different.

• 2:56:03Speaker 02

  But at the time, I didn't know anything about it, and I remember very vividly in my 10th day or 14th day or something like that, I ran my first meeting in the White House Situation Room. And this is the room, where there's a big room, medium room, and small room. It's since been renovated, I haven't been in there recently, so it might be different. But at the time, this was the room. I'm at the head of the table, and then around the table is basically like number threes from all of the organizations around DC. Like, State, Defense, the Intelligence Community, Department of Energy, et cetera, et cetera.

• 2:56:44Speaker 02

  And I started my first meeting saying, and it was all men, I said, hey, listen, guys, here's the deal. I know that there's 150 or more years of DC experience sitting at this table. In 15 minutes or less of experience at the head of this table, but here's the deal. I've been a Navy SEAL for 15 years and what I'm really good at is keeping those two doors closed until we all figure this out together. And because these, this group of people were stuck. They were hitting issues that were binary that you couldn't really compromise on. Legal structure of the text, how should it be written? Or do you give telemetry data for the rockets that get tested? Do you share those with the other nation? Things that were a zero or a one.

• 2:57:29Speaker 02

  And so we had to have those conversations and figure it out. And, and I said, listen, uh, my other observation in my 15 minutes of DC is that this group at the table is, is smarter than your bosses on these topics. Your bosses have to be responsible for a bunch more and their bosses are all the deputies, the number two, DepSec State, DepSec Def, Dep, you know, deputy. And I said, listen, do me a favor, guys. Raise your hand right now if your boss is smarter than you on this topic. Of course, no one raises their hand, right? Great. So we got the smartest people in Washington DC at this table right now.

• 2:58:08Speaker 02

  If we as Americans can't figure this out, then it is our failure as citizens and as, as patriots. Now let's dig in and roll the sleeves up and figure it out. Dude, like seven days later, 10 days later, we had everything hammered out. And then I got asked by the deputy national security advisor to lead the delegation to Moscow to go negotiate that treaty across the table from the Russians. So here I am, a 35 year old dude, something like that, and responsible to bring this delegation over. Now, look, everybody who is on that delegation knew way more than I did about this thing, but on paper, I was kind of like the senior dude from the White House. There was one other White House guy that went on this too.

• 2:58:52Speaker 02

  But, uh, so in fairness, it was, it was co, co-lead, but, but, um, showed up in Moscow, you know, with the little things that you see in the movies with the microphones and push the red button and interpreters and all that. And, and, uh, it was just quite an experience to, to, to do that.

• 2:59:13Shawn Ryan?

  What's that pressure feel like? I mean, that's a big, big deal.

• 2:59:18Speaker 02

  It is a big deal. And at the same time, I was, I think we were all realistic, knowing that the Russians aren't going to sign a new nuclear treaty with the Americans like three months before Bush leaves office. So they would just stall and engage with the next, drag things out. So we were not like, we were realistic about what, what a good outcome could be. But still, I mean,

• 2:59:40Shawn Ryan?

  What was a good outcome?

• 2:59:41Speaker 02

  Well, a good outcome would have been limiting nuclear weapons to, for both sides in verifiable ways. Like, you know, without, I don't want to get into numbers and things like that, but knowing what our arsenal is. And, and the thing is, as it's in our national best interest to make sure that we don't set up rules that, that bind ourselves and then unbind the, the, I'll say the opponent, you know? And so how do you, trust but fair, it's Reagan, trust but verify. So, um, I, I would say it really wasn't that much pressure because this guy Anatoly Antonov, his name's popped up from time to time. He was the ambassador in DC for a while, but at the, for this event, he was the head Russian.

• 3:00:25Speaker 02

  He was fashionably late to, to our meeting. His whole team was sitting there. He walks out with a printed, I don't know what it was, 60, I'll make this up, 60 pages of the text that we wrote for the treaty. He comes in and without sitting down, he throws the, the, the paper down on, on the, the table. And he's like, you know what this smells like? Pause for effect. It's like, this smells like the Cold War all over again. And he just goes on a rant and I'm just like, you know what this smells like? It smells like a comedy movie. You know? Like, like, it's like, so anyways, it was, it was going nowhere, but it was a great

• 3:01:09Speaker 02

  experience as a, in that role. Months later, you know, President Bush's administration goes home, Obama's administration comes in. I'm the only person at my level that stayed, at least that I know of. I'm 99% sure that's right, but the, because I was not a political appointee, I was a White House fellow. Everybody else at my level, like was mostly everybody at my level was a political appointee. Some people detailed from departments and agencies. So thinking back, I'm sure I was, there, there, there would have been a handful, you know, not, I'm, I'm probably hyperbole for effect there a little bit, but just mostly everybody went home. So in comes the Obama administration and there's only a handful of us that know where the light switches in the bathrooms are.

• 3:01:54Speaker 02

  And they came in with a lot of energy, you know, two blackberries in each hand and like boom, boom, boom, like, and it was off to the races. And it was really interesting and a real privilege to be a person who got to see and witness firsthand a transition of presidential power where on one day it's one administration, on the next day it's another. And, you know, we could, and then, you know, I had a lot of, I mean, we could, got into a lot of really interesting things when, when the Obama administration came in. You know, it's, um, there was a, I'll say natural, natural mistrust of the, of the military, maybe somewhat unnatural, I don't know.

• 3:02:35Speaker 02

  But the, pardon me, I was asked to lead a sensitive review of all classified operations that the Department of Defense did. And as you know, from like top secret land, very, things get compartmentalized and by nature you need, you don't have one person who knows everything. And so I had to go to the Pentagon and say, hi guys, I'm Mike. I need to get right into every single thing that we do.

• 3:03:04Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what does that even mean? How, how is that even possible? For one person to dig into every single classified program that the DoD is involved in?

• 3:03:16Speaker 02

  There's a way to do it systematically and there's something called, and, and the, this is public, just to be, but it's, it's, um, the, Stephen Hadley was the national security advisor for President Bush, and he wrote memos like the Al Qaeda network execute order. And so that gave the authorities to the Department of Defense of what can you do and what can't you do? And so there were these, what was affectionately called the Hadley memos that, that allowed the, the parameters, the policy parameters of what are you allowed to do in the Department of Defense under Title 10 authority? And that's the, that's, that's the, the area, the legal, the legal word might be wrong,

• 3:03:58Speaker 02

  but that's where the code is written of what the Department of Defense is chartered to do. And so Title 10 is what gives Department of Defense its authorities. And so what can happen under the DoD authorities? And as you know, you spent time at the agency, Title 50 authorities are where the agency's authorities are laid out. And sometimes there are ways to kind of, um, connect those. But what President Obama's staff, like senior staff was trying to do is just get their head around it. You know, just what's the lay of the land? What's the what is? Not the what should be, what's the what is? And so I had to kind of help go through, I won't use a number because that is classified,

• 3:04:41Speaker 02

  but I had to go through, I'll say more than a dozen of these excerpts, more than a dozen, less than a hundred, kind of that's the range of like what, what authorities reside in the Department of Defense.

• 3:04:56Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:04:57Speaker 02

  So it just meant I had to get right in and get familiar, go to the staff officer who was in charge of this program, spend time with the staff officer in charge of that program and say, hey, tell me what you do. And just learn. And it took quite some time to, to do that. But in the meantime, a couple of months later, so, so Obama came in, I don't remember the exact day, but January of 09, just say the 20th or whatever it is. The, um, a couple of months later, my BlackBerry is going off at like three in the morning. Of course, you know, this is, you know, we're not on the iPhone, in iPhone world yet. And I didn't really wake up to it all the time. Like my role was a policy role. It wasn't a crisis role. Yeah.

• 3:05:41Speaker 02

  So there was really nothing that should have woken me up at three, three in the morning and mattered. It wasn't the Fallujah, like, oh my gosh, I gotta get up and be springing to action in two seconds. It was, but this particular night, I read what was, I was like, what's happening? Cause the, the BlackBerry kept buzzing and I saw that there was a guy who was hijacked on a ship off of Somalia, a ship that was hijacked by pirates. And I thought to myself, jeez, this is a really serious situation. I drew back to my experience being hijacked in Peru in 1996. And I'm like, I know what this feels like, but set that aside for a second and just think very logically, you've got pirates who want money.

• 3:06:25Speaker 02

  And then whatever it was, 40, 50 nautical miles away, I don't remember exactly how far, you have Al Shabab, the terrorist group sitting in Somalia with money. If, if pirates can bring, you know, Americans to Somalia, there's a really interesting trade for both those parties. And we have Americans in the hands of Al Shabab. And I'm like, we cannot let that happen. So at three in the morning, I called a friend of mine, Chris, who was sitting on a alert at Red Squadron at Dam Neck. And I said, hey, brother, as you know, there's a million, a million layers of chain of

• 3:07:05Speaker 02

  command between us, but you need to start looking at this situation and start preparing to do something. I don't have any details other than what, very limited details about operational details and, but like, you need to put all of your intelligence assets and everything that you can do to start figuring this problem set out. And he's like, Roger that, you know? So I go, put my suit on, I go over to the, the basement of the Pentagon, the NMCC, the National Military Command Center.

• 3:07:37Speaker 02

  There was a Marine three-star general who was the operations officer for the Pentagon, if you will, you know, he's the J three. And I said, I introduced myself, I'm wearing a suit. Hey, sir, I'm Commander Mike Hayes in the SEALs. I know I'm dressed in a suit, but I'm, I'm one of us. I'm not one of them. But I'm here on behalf of, I told him my role, which is like positionally senior to the Department of Defense. And, um, and, um, I used every ounce of EQ and humility that I could to just say, listen, sir, here's a really serious situation. I'm sure you're tracking it. What are you thinking about doing here? And he very derogatorily said,

• 3:08:20Speaker 02

  like, Mike, we're not doing anything with this. Or Commander, not even first name kind of guy, just Commander Hayes, we're not doing anything with this. And I was like, wait, Mr. I explained to him like what I just said about pirate and Al Shabab. And I'm like, I don't understand. Like you're really like, you're not. And I know where his head was in his defense. He was like, listen, as soon as we have to go cap, like help every knucklehead in, in, in that gets captured at sea, like the Department of Defense will be forever chasing a civilian problem. But that wasn't the right strategic way to look at this because this is a little bit different. And I, I got to the point where it's like, I'm not going to get anywhere with this guy. He's talking down to me and like, he's the smartest guy in the room. And, and so I just got my, got back on the little metro that takes me back to the, on the orange line and walk out of, uh, what is it, Faragad East

• 3:09:05Speaker 02

  or something, stop or north or whatever it was, and walk my block back into my office in the White House. And I only did this two times in the two years that I was there, but the, I waited probably 20 minutes just to seem like a bunch of time, like enough time had passed and I called him back. And I said, hey, sir, it's Commander Hayes again. I'm calling with White House guidance. You know, the White House needs you to prepare courses of action, military courses of action for this problem. And that's White House guidance. And so now he's thinking by definition that I can't, I can't make White House guidance. Of course I can. It's my judgment of whether I say that or whether I let the national

• 3:09:49Speaker 02

  security advisor say that or the president say that. But it's like 6:45 in the morning. No one like, it's not like people rolled into work at, I don't know, seven, like early, they're hard workers in every White House. But I just didn't have like, first of all, I knew what people would say. I knew people would trust me to make the right call and whatnot. So then that spun up a bunch of people to start planning and that's what kicked the, this into gear. And then it, it famously became the, uh, the Captain Phillips situation, which turned into the movie and whatnot. But I, I, I ran that from the White House Situation Room.

• 3:10:25Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was so like

• 3:10:30Shawn Ryan?

  House guidance.

• 3:10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I take this as White House guidance, sir. Um, the, uh, the cool thing was, I remember we had secure video, we used to call them civets, SVTC, secure VTCs. There's always a different name for it, but a, a 6:00 AM and a 6:00 PM or maybe with 7:00 PM, 7:00 AM, 7:00 PM, something like that, like twice daily calls with the whole interagency. So, you know, Department of Defense, State, Justice, everybody's plugged in. And man, I am just running the show from the White House Situation Room, just like it's like command and control central. And I remember very vividly, the depart, like I said to Department of Justice, I said, okay, listen, guys, here's the deal. We're going to have

• 3:11:16Speaker 02

  one of two outcomes here. We're going to have live pirates or dead pirates. If we have live pirates, where are we prosecuting them? If we have dead pirates, how are we going to bury them so that we don't have a tactical victory, but a strategic loss? And they're like, oh, we don't really have an answer to that. Okay, okay, good. I'm glad you don't have the answer, but we got to think ahead and see around corners and think about what will happen. So I need you to have an answer on our next call in 12 hours and just have the answer so that we can just go into execution mode whenever the time is right. And President Obama walked in to hear that little blip. There were probably four of us from the White House that were involved in this, maybe five. It was, um,

• 3:11:58Speaker 02

  yeah, President Obama, it was Dennis McDonough, who later became the White House Chief of Staff. It was John Brennan, who later become the Director of the CIA. It was myself. It would have been Brian Lozzy, another SEAL, but he was on the road for something. Uh, he was actually the guy responsible for all things piracy, but I stood in for him. Incredible leader. The, and then there was one other guy who, a staffer who, who didn't really have much to do with it. But, but when it was all said and done, everybody knows how that, that turned out, that, that operation landed. But the President Obama, actually, I think I, I grabbed a screenshot, Sean. President Obama wrote me this really nice note card that I wanted to share with you right here. It's, I've got that in my safe

• 3:12:43Speaker 02

  at home.

• 3:12:49Shawn Ryan?

  Mike, great job on the Somali situation. You made a family very happy on Easter. Barack Obama.

• 3:13:01Shawn Ryan?

  That's pretty badass.

• 3:13:01Speaker 02

  That, that felt pretty cool. I was at Easter, I remember, I was at Easter Mass at Holy Family, I think that's the name of the church at Georgetown on Sunday morning. And like this thing had been dragging on and I needed to like, it was like out of, it was like out of the movies. It was like one of the coolest experiences I had in my life. But I was like, oh my gosh, so I got to get back to work right now. I didn't want to miss Easter Mass with my family. But I remember I had to leave Easter Mass and grab a taxi real quick and get back into, into the, the Situation Room and, and, uh, for, for different reasons. And it was just a lifetime experience. I like to say, I've lived hundreds of once in a lifetime experiences, but that particular operation really put SEALs on the map with

• 3:13:42Speaker 02

  that administration. So I got pulled personally into a whole bunch of things after that. And hey, get Mike down here to the West Wing or the Sit Room or whatever. And what does Mike think on this? Or, you know, it just, it just gave a credibility and it wasn't about me, Sean. It sounds like it's about me. It's like, I felt great because I was representing not just the SEALs, but the military, representing the military to this civilian administration and, and hopefully doing us right to show what can we do as a, as a Department of Defense when things are done right now?

• 3:14:13Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Does that general know? Or the, yeah, does that

• 3:14:17Speaker 02

  I could name him right now and be like, but, uh, he, I mean, I never, I, you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm not a person that needs to, I told you so.

• 3:14:27Shawn Ryan?

  I'm just curious.

• 3:14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it's not complicated. He was the J, his last name was Paxton. You know, he was the J three when I was there. I was, we know what year it is. It's not hard to look up. But, uh, look, that was my only interaction with the guy. I'm not judging him. I think he was difficult in this situation and made a wrong decision. And I'm sure he made plenty of right decisions and was a great American and served in so many other different ways. But on this one, uh, it took me forcing his hand and that's the right thing happened for the country. And that's what the system of checks and balances is.

• 3:14:56Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's amazing.

• 3:14:59Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Damn. So that led to, I mean, that probably played, it wound up playing a role in the, in the Osama bin Laden raid and everything.

• 3:15:11Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I certainly wouldn't, I, I think that, though, I think the right way to say it is, it's certainly built trust and confidence in what special operations could do. And so when it came time, like I, I think Obama made a very bold bet to give the green light to that operation. And I don't care what somebody thinks about Obama, what side of the, I'm not making a political statement here at all. As an individual man, as an individual leader, that was a bold call. That's not in dispute. And I think that you can make bold calls, you make bold calls as a leader based on the confidence that you have in someone's, in an organization's ability to execute.

• 3:15:53Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:15:56Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what, what was it like for you just coming off the battlefield, straight, straight into that? I mean, that's a staunch difference.

• 3:16:06Speaker 02

  It was. What was it like?

• 3:16:09Shawn Ryan?

  Different person. I mean, totally different personalities.

• 3:16:13Speaker 02

  I had to like chameleon into a whole different like battlefield was like

• 3:16:17Shawn Ryan?

  Totally different culture.

• 3:16:19Speaker 02

  Like I took very seriously, like I'm in the lunch line. Let me talk to the person in front of me. There's a little, little like buffet in the basement and I, I didn't have time to, uh, normally to run out and get something to eat. And I would just meet the person next to me. I'm the, I'm the person in the elevator that if the two of us are in the elevator, I can't stay quiet. I'm going to say hello. How's your day? You know, I'm probably too extroverted, you know? Uh, and, but with, every personality type has its pros and cons, but one of the pros of that is that you just are comfortable meeting other people and saying, what do you do? What do you learn? And you learn how the White House as an institution works because you say, hey, listen, let's, uh, grab a coffee sometime. I'd like, like to hear more about your role in your office and what you do.

• 3:17:04Speaker 02

  And then when you do these like lunches or coffees or things like that, you quickly learn how, how, learn an organization and you learn how to navigate it.

• 3:17:21Shawn Ryan?

  When it comes to the classified review or AAR, is there anything that you can discuss about that?

• 3:17:28Speaker 02

  Um, sure. I mean, obviously without crossing truly classified lines and getting myself in trouble. I think that

• 3:17:42Speaker 02

  I think it's easy to be skeptical about and rightfully so in some situations about like either the institution or specific people. Skepticism is healthy. But you know, in the national security world, when you go from one party to another, as you get read into the real intelligence in and around something, you realize that there's less party politics around problems than you would imagine.

• 3:18:12Speaker 02

  Because the military problems are just the military problems, or the policy problems are just the policy problems, and they don't care if you're Democrat or Republican. And so it's harder to be partisan with the truly national security issues than you'd imagine. And so as the administration learned more about the Hadley memos and what was done. This is my take on it. Others in the administration might disagree. There wouldn't be very many people that knew about this, but a couple. I think that there was, you know,

• 3:18:42Speaker 02

  more confidence than less that that the Department of Defense is a pretty damn professional organization.

• 3:18:54Shawn Ryan?

  So you go there to commanding SEAL Team Two.

• 3:18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:19:00Shawn Ryan?

  To Afghanistan, which same deployment we were discussing earlier, just a little out of order. But where did we leave off with Afghanistan?

• 3:19:11Speaker 02

  Well,

• 3:19:14Speaker 02

  I jumped around a little bit. Let me go slightly chronologically here because there's an interesting story. First of all, when it was time to leave the White House.

• 3:19:22Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:19:23Speaker 02

  I was ready, like two years of like nonstop, long hours, like the learning curve had flattened out. Would I keep learning, of course? But the SEAL community called me and said, hey, Mike, can you extract yourself from your role? And um, let me, sorry, I left one thing out. After the Captain Phillips thing, President Obama said to me, hey, man, like, that was amazing. Where'd you come from? And I said, don't worry, sir. I was here with the last administration, just as, because I knew, just as a, what I thought was a joke. But um,

• 3:19:53Speaker 02

  the, I said, but don't worry, sir. I'm actually a White House fellow. I'm not a political appointee. I'm not partisan, you know? And I'm here to serve. And he said, dude, like, that was amazing. Can you just stay my whole administration?

• 3:20:07Speaker 02

  And it got to the point where like I was involved in a bunch of really fun, cool things. And and when it was time to extract myself, I didn't need to speak personally to the president, but I needed to talk to the right people in the administration and say, the SEAL community has an important role for me running SEAL Team Two. I want to go do this. I want to make sure it's cool to go. Whether that presidential personnel kind of conversation was just stuck there or it got raised higher, I don't know. I don't need to know. And I got clearance to kind of leave, to leave the White House. So, and to go move into, into the role as commander of SEAL Team Two. The SEAL teams at that time were just beginning to be in charge of all of Special Operations Task Force Southeast.

• 3:20:51Speaker 02

  So as, as we well know, we're usually, as much as the public might think SEALs are cool, we never own our own battle space. We're always like under the thumb of like big army and, which sometimes work well, but sometimes it works really, really horribly wrong because of unnecessary friction. But we were going to be in charge of this whole battle space. And it would be an opportunity to bring my whole SEAL team overseas. I wasn't the first SEAL commander to be in charge of SOLO Southeast. Uh, I think I was the second or third or something like that, but the, uh, it's just like I did with Iraq, going over to augment Red Squadron and try to learn. What I did right away was

• 3:21:36Speaker 02

  was to go bring the leadership of SEAL Team Two over to Afghanistan for three-ish weeks or something like that. And learn the battlefield. And say, what's unique about Afghanistan right now? Where are we? What's working? What's not working? And, and so I went over there and right away, as soon as I landed, there was a helicopter that killed three SEALs, I believe it was. I'd have to look back at it, but there was a guy Brendan Looney who was killed in a helicopter crash. We could, we could piece that back together with, but I, I didn't know these guys didn't work for my team, but I was there for a memorial service. There was like a, a crypto tech. And of course, a lot of air crew passed away. I don't remember all the details of this. You know, we've been around so much

• 3:22:20Speaker 02

  loss that a lot of these days that should be really crystal clear in my brain just start running together, unfortunately.

• 3:22:27Shawn Ryan?

  Real, real quick, I'm just curious. Why did you feel like it was more important to go back and lead SEAL Team Two?

• 3:22:33Speaker 02

  Than to be at the White House?

• 3:22:35Shawn Ryan?

  To be at the White House when you when you obviously had the START Treaty.

• 3:22:43Shawn Ryan?

  The Pirate, you know, the Alabama. He obviously had a tremendous amount of respect for you. He asked you to stay. But you don't, how did you weigh that decision?

• 3:22:56Speaker 02

  That's a great question. I

• 3:23:02Speaker 02

  while it was an attractive, kind of cool policy, you know, role. I mean, I'm a SEAL at my core. You know, the opportunity to command a SEAL team into combat

• 3:23:16Speaker 02

  is

• 3:23:18Speaker 02

  at the time, what I, at the time, I would tell you, that's what I was put here to do. Cause I'm really good, I'm, I'm bad at more things than I'm good at, but I'm really good at weighing risk decisions and what should we be doing? I'm really good with vision, with strategy, and then saying, what actions do we take or not take in order to achieve said vision and strategy? And I think about all of the lives that our nations, you know, parents or siblings entrust into the military. You have to have people that are really good at risk decisions in charge. And so everything that I had learned up in my life to that point, I think put me in a very unique ability to make those risk decisions really well. And I felt like

• 3:24:04Speaker 02

  that would be a more of a capstone type of deployment or, or command opportunity than any number of years, more years at the White House.

• 3:24:14Speaker 02

  I think that you're putting your finger on a really good tension though, because I think if I'm being honest, I would have had more impact for the nation, probably staying at the White House.

• 3:24:25Speaker 02

  Maybe it was, um, but it's also a machine, you know, it's also like, you could, you could argue like, hey, somebody else came in behind me and took my job and probably did better than I would have done, you know? I don't know. I don't remember who it was, but

• 3:24:41Speaker 02

  but I was just ready and the opportunity, it's kind of like, if you're in the minor leagues your whole life and you get that call to the major leagues, or they're like, hey, do you want to, you know, come do something different? You're going to want to go to the major leagues. And so commanding a SEAL team, when you get to bring your whole team in, into, into combat, it was a no brainer for me.

• 3:24:57Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:25:00Speaker 02

  So we did this advance party with the leadership. And right away, I'm at a memorial service for a bunch of great Americans. You know, and I was like, holy shit, this is real again. And I circulated around to a couple of different places and, you know, asked about different operations. I just asked all kinds of questions and just the the inquisitive like learning me was like, let me learn as much as I can so that I can prepare our team to come over here, come back here in a year. And the thing that I remember the most about that, that trip was actually my return flight from Kandahar back to Germany.

• 3:25:46Speaker 02

  We were having trouble getting our own aircraft out and all of a sudden there was a medevac bird, like it was like a KC one, it was like a 135 platform. It might've been a KC 135, but it's normally it was a refueler platform, but reconfigured to be medevac and it had like a bunch of gurneys on it and, and there was room for us to kind of basically ride the ambulance back to, from Kandahar back to, to Germany.

• 3:26:11Speaker 02

  And so we jumped on the, when you're ready to get home, any trip you're on, you're ready to get home. And we were like, let's just jump on the medevac, you know? And we got on and I remember maybe 10 patients or so being on there and I, I was toward the aft end of the plane. I don't know, aft is a ship term. I don't know if it's a plane term, but the, the back end of the plane. There was a gurney with a, a soldier, you know, elevated maybe four or five feet and, and just laying flat. Head like all kinds of ace bandages around his head. Completely out of it. And like, like medically induced coma, kind of like borderline coma. And there are of course nurses that are flying. They're each responsible for, I think, two of the patients or something like that.

• 3:26:57Speaker 02

  And I was, I had a seat basically right next to this guy who was in this medically induced coma. And I asked the, the nurse, I said, you know, you know, what happened? And she said, yeah, he was in IED. They, he, right now, his, his skull is, is just sit like cut open, his, his brain was exposed. He's going to pass away, but we're just flying him back to, to Germany so that he can pass away next to his family.

• 3:27:26Speaker 02

  Shit. And I'm just thinking to myself, Jesus, man, like it was like some young soldier who, I mean, people were dying, like many people a day. So it's on the one hand, you get numb to it. But I just remember putting my hand on him and praying for him and talking to him.

• 3:27:48Speaker 02

  It's like the unknown soldier, man. Like, I don't know who that guy was. But that kid gave his life for the nation. And I was like, the least I can do is talk to him and pray for him for seven straight hours or six hours, whatever that flight is from Kandahar to to a launch duel to Frankfurt, Germany. I slept underneath the gurney for maybe a little bit, but I stayed right with him. And, uh, and I had

• 3:28:19Speaker 02

  such an intense drive to say, this will not be any of my guys when I come back to when I come back to command here in Afghanistan. I will do whatever it fucking takes to not have any of my guys look like this on the way home. You can't outwork me. And, and that's how I approached the next year of my life.

• 3:28:41Speaker 02

  And we went to Afghanistan a year later. And I think, you know, and I'm really proud to say, like, we brought everybody home. It was really hard. It was nonstop. It was the hardest time of my life. That 10 month deployment, by far the hardest 10 months of my life. I don't think I slept more than three hours straight for 10 months. I was, you know, at that time of the war, I was the guy who decided when we drop bombs from planes onto the ground. That was my decision. And, you know, today with the limited kinetic activities that those decisions get made way higher. But when you're dropping all kinds of bombs all the time, you need to delegate decisions down. And in 2012, 2012,

• 3:29:27Speaker 02

  that was the O5 commander's decision. And we dropped more than 1,000 times. And I'm proud to say we never harmed anybody we shouldn't harm. And we harmed a lot of people we should harm. And, you know, it's interesting because like when I speak in the business world, I talk about decision making systems and how to think about things like this. A lot of the like, what I built from a decision making system and how to do that was, um, I carry into the business world. But, you know, it was waking up at on a moment's notice, running down the 40 foot hall into the operation center. And very distinctly not having a

• 3:30:09Speaker 02

  job. I always joke around the L and seal stands for lazy. But like, I say that because like, I need to come in there and be able to think about what we're missing. When you have an operation center, everybody gets so focused on the positive space, you know, like, like the things that they have to do, and they're overwhelmed with all the things they have to do. Organizationally, you have to have somebody who sits back and thinks about what you're missing. What aren't we thinking of? And, and then you have to separate, like, I'm ultimately the decider on that bomb, but I'm also an input. And the thing is, if my decision is always the same as my input, then by definition, I don't need

• 3:30:50Speaker 02

  anybody else in that room. That's a bad system. You know, and so what that means is out of 1,000 times, I need to be the input, but then listen to the other inputs. And then my decision sometimes is going to be different than my individual input. And probably, it was maybe five or 10 times, we did something that I like, we did, we, I reversed my decision based on other people's inputs. And I think that trait of surrounding yourself with people who aren't afraid to speak their mind, who tell you what you think, who really have the experience, who know how to ask the right questions, who know how to communicate, who are quick, agile, like, that's the kind of thing that, that, uh, that allowed, that

• 3:31:30Speaker 02

  keeps people safe in the field. So, you know, that, that Afghanistan deployment was incredibly, incredibly intense. You know, when I got there, Sean, I was doing a turnover with the previous team. I had all my deployment bags. I'm in the commander gets his own room. And I actually even have an internet line at the time, like a, a unclassed internet and classified in my room. I'm really lucky. And, uh, I was unpacking and, and I found my grandfather's mask card from his, his, uh, from when he passed away in 2009. So at the time, three years earlier. And I was just like, you know, my grandfather gave

• 3:32:15Speaker 02

  me so much wisdom along the way. Again, the Pearl Harbor survivor and everything. And then, and it just felt really nice because I thought like, hey, my grandfather's with me. This is gonna be, this will be about, this will be the hardest 10 months of my life. And I knew it coming into it. And, uh, and it just felt great because I felt like he was watching me.

• 3:32:37Speaker 01

  In deepest jungle, Cartier's panther spies a wandering bird that circles the skies. A lovebird, lost and missing his mate, is far from his past in lonely state. Dry your tears now there's a start. Follow my steps to heal your heart. Panther stalks through the leaves with silent grace. Through the power of scent, she finds the trace. Behold, two lovers reunite in the skies. A most precious thrill sparkling in their eyes. Together forever, they shine each day, bound by the beauty of Cartier.

• 3:33:21Speaker 06

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head turning style. Or take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value, built on a reputation for quality and reliability. So when it's

• 3:34:05Speaker 06

  time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 3:34:21Speaker 02

  And, um,

• 3:34:26Speaker 02

  and I'll jump ahead just to keep continuity of a story with my grandfather here. But middle of the deployment,

• 3:34:32Speaker 02

  I had a really hard day. If you said, how many times have I felt real true stress in my life? I think it's one day. And this one day comes like, comes to mind. We had all kinds of crazy shit happening tactically, strategically on the battlefield. People being, you know, attacked, etc., etc. Sometimes we had five different or six different units in troops in contact situations. I also had just found out that my met my wife had a medical situation back home. And I wanted to go home. I really wanted to go home and be with her. But I also knew that I'm better at these risk decisions than anybody else in the organization. And not to sound arrogant, I just had done it more. You know, and the

• 3:35:14Speaker 02

  organization isn't the same. Like, sure, it would have been fine. My number two, my executive officer, Rocky Russell, the best guy on the planet, and he could have easily been me. But the two of us are better than one of us would be alone. And I didn't, I didn't. So I was just really conflicted. And I just felt a lot of pressure. And I called a really good friend of mine, who was a White House fellow classmate of mine, who was a badass doctor. This guy, Brian Alexander, shout out to Brian. I called him.

• 3:35:45Speaker 02

  Just buried the weight of the world on him. And I was like, dude, I need help. And he never heard me like that. And I explained what I needed with my wife. And dude, like, this is when you find out your friends are. I don't want to go into detail what it was, but my friend Brian made magic happen. And just did everything that like, if, if you call me at three in the morning, and you have whatever your highest expectations are of your friends of what help you need, like, brother, I got your back. That's the way I am. Unfortunately, not everybody lives that way. But, but when you live that way, when you do need that help, it's, you get it. You know, and you don't always get it

• 3:36:29Speaker 02

  from the same place you give it. But it's like that karma concept. And this guy Brian like, really, really allowed me to focus on what was happening in Afghanistan. So I felt really, really, really pressured. And, you know, one of the things my grandfather taught me was a poem that he read, he had, his dad made him memorize as a little boy. It's called "If" by Rudyard Kipling. I'd be tempted to read the whole poem here. It's not that long, but I really recommend people listening, Google Rudyard Kipling's "If", it's an amazing poem that kind of, it, it's, what does it mean to be a man, is the, the, the essence of the poem. Like, you know, can you hang out with, these are my words,

• 3:37:12Speaker 02

  not Rudyard Kipling's, but can you hang out with kings? And can you hang out with plumbers? Can you be around people? Like, can you tolerate people lying about you and talking distaste or distrustful things about you? And like, in all of these hard situations, you know, if, if this, if this, if this, if, if all these things, you'll be a man, my son, is the way the poem ends. Nobody knew in my, like, the significance of that poem. In my, in my, I didn't talk much about this kind of stuff with my, my teammates. And I just felt, Sean, like the such extreme stress and pressure and everything. And I, I log on to my computer and I have to show you this. This is what was in my inbox.

• 3:38:02Speaker 02

  This is a, this is an email. I'll, I'll, maybe we

• 3:38:17Speaker 02

  This is my buddy Rocky, my XO.

• 3:38:23Speaker 02

  He sent me the poem "If."

• 3:38:28Speaker 02

  That's June 7th, 2012. He didn't even write anything. He just copied, pasted, and sent me "If", without knowing its significance at all to me. That was an email from my grandfather in heaven.

• 3:38:52Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that sounded coincidence.

• 3:38:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:38:57Speaker 02

  You know, I've heard you talk a lot about guardian angels. I believe so deeply in that. But I also believe that in many ways, my grandfather is my guardian angel.

• 3:39:13Speaker 02

  Isn't that mind blowing? Of all the things he could do, how would he ever know? Like, he just couldn't know. There's no way. And this just lands in my inbox at the time, the greatest time of stress in my life.

• 3:39:25Shawn Ryan?

  Did you ever ask him?

• 3:39:27Speaker 02

  I said, "Yeah." I said, "Rock, what made you pick that?" He's like, "I don't know, just great poem." You know, like, dude, great poem. Like, I had, I was so overwhelmed. I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't even, like, tell him the significance. So...

• 3:39:49Speaker 02

  I mean...

• 3:39:55Speaker 02

  Powerful.

• 3:39:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:40:00Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:40:05Shawn Ryan?

  You still talk to him?

• 3:40:06Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 3:40:07Shawn Ryan?

  Did you tell him the significance of that poem to you?

• 3:40:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah. So, we had an Australian, like, we were right next to the, in Taran Kaut, Afghanistan, where my headquarters was. We had the Australian SAS and Commando Task Force right next to us. Man, those guys are bad to the bone. Like, and their commander became a friend of mine. He still is to this day. They had a Catholic priest assigned to their unit. He came over to our, in our compound, which was like a stone's throw away, every, I don't know, Saturday at 4 o'clock or whatever. And we had Catholic Mass every day on deployment. And it was the same five or six of us in the task force that would be at Mass. And it's kind of a weird feeling when you're like, like...

• 3:40:54Speaker 02

  We got rocketed for the first 30 days of that deployment at that headquarters. Like, they were sometimes effective, sometimes many times ineffective. But, you know, you're just like in cammies and you got a gun on your side and your long gun sitting, you know, at the entrance to the makeshift room. That's the chapel, if you will, the church.

• 3:41:14Speaker 02

  And...

• 3:41:16Speaker 02

  And then there you are, like, able to pray, able to have Mass, able to take communion, able, like, to... And so Rocky also, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, also Catholic and also at that Mass every single week with me.

• 3:41:33Speaker 02

  He's a great man, Rocky Russell.

• 3:41:37Speaker 02

  But like, it was a lot of, like, the first 30 days when we got rocketed, like, man, there were, there were vehicle IEDs that were, like, the big technique, procedure, tactic, whatever you want to call it, from the enemy was to get these big gas trucks because, you know, we were so dependent on generators. There was contracted vehicles that would fill up the generators, but some of them had been hijacked or taken over by the enemy. They would drive in and then just blow themselves up and then just blow, I mean, just vaporize buildings on compounds. I slept in that room that had, like, my concrete was maybe six inches thick. And every night you go to bed, you're like, well, I even know I died.

• 3:42:22Speaker 02

  Every single night.

• 3:42:28Speaker 02

  And in those first 30 days of getting rocketed, like, look, I wasn't like scared about the getting rocketed. I was worried about it hitting somebody randomly on our camp. Because I'm responsible for everybody.

• 3:42:42Speaker 02

  But there was one night I was on Skype. Nobody uses Skype anymore. It's not a thing. But at the time, that's how I was able to Skype home. And we were so used to getting rocketed that I was on video and audio with my wife and daughter. And the alarm started going off about incoming, incoming, incoming, you know? And it's like this, it was anyways. It was not a human. It was one of our systems that helped us know that. And...

• 3:43:10Speaker 02

  The explosion was super close. I assessed from the sound, it was maybe 5, 10 meters outside my wall.

• 3:43:15Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez.

• 3:43:17Speaker 02

  And, and I was like, on video with the family and I was like, um, I was like, "Oh, I gotta go," very calmly, like, "Oh, I gotta go." And they're like, "What was that?" My wife or my daughter, I don't remember who asked it, one of them. And I said, "Oh, no big deal. We're just getting rocketed again, but I gotta go check this out."

• 3:43:35Speaker 02

  Dumbest thing I've ever said in my whole life. I've said a lot of dumb things.

• 3:43:41Speaker 02

  The worst, to have your wife and daughter sitting home and be like, "Oh, no big deal, honey. We're just getting rocketed again." Happens all the time.

• 3:43:52Speaker 02

  IQ zero. You know?

• 3:43:56Speaker 02

  So that didn't help the stress on the home front. I mean, they didn't show it, but anyways.

• 3:44:03Speaker 02

  But, um... But I think that...

• 3:44:10Speaker 02

  We underestimate the pressure on the families.

• 3:44:17Speaker 02

  Got another really good...

• 3:44:20Speaker 02

  Faith story, if you will, from that deployment, if I could.

• 3:44:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:27Speaker 02

  So, at the time, there was, we had finally figured out, the more innocent people you accidentally kill, the more the populace doesn't like you. Like, hello, not rocket science.

• 3:44:40Speaker 02

  But there was a policy that was implemented called Boots on the Ground BDA, Battle Damage Assessment. So, after you drop a bomb, you were supposed to somehow get boots on the ground, people, humans, to go verify that you didn't kill any civilians. And, and like, I was, that was a... Sometimes, like, you have a force in the field that calls in bombs and they can just be like, you know, through some sort of optics, be like, "Nope, boots on the ground, BDA, negative. We're good." There was a night where we did a, what's, this is early in the days of this, or a Type 3 CAS, close air support. So what that means is, there wasn't a human on the ground.

• 3:45:23Speaker 02

  There was an Army A-Team that knew their battle space cold. Man, the, the, the... Just stuttered 17 times. The A-Team guys, the Green Beret guys, really are great with knowing their terrain and their battle space. And...

• 3:45:42Speaker 02

  3:00 in the morning, whatever it was, these guys call up and they're like, "We have nine Taliban that are, some of whom are planting IEDs on this road. And these guys know this space really well, and they know the patterns of life. And you have to be careful. Is it farmers? Is it a backhoe? Is it, you know, or, you know, the classic things you need to worry about." But, man, I trust these guys. Like, these are great Green Berets. And, but we get a, they're not, they're looking at it through a drone.

• 3:46:15Speaker 02

  They call me up and say, "Sir, can we do Type 3 CAS? We can clear the battle space, we can clear the battle space visually through the optics of the drone." So I'm like, "That's a pretty badass move. Let's do it." You know? But how sure are we that there's no civilians? And we talk through that, like, I'm talking actually on the phone to the senior guy from that outstation, maybe 20 kilometers away from me, that's it, maybe, maybe less. And I get to the point where I'm comfortable.

• 3:46:49Speaker 02

  Missiles away, kill eight Taliban, nine Taliban, whatever it was.

• 3:46:55Speaker 02

  Now, higher headquarters in Afghanistan, who monitors all the Satcom channels, calls down to my headquarters, one of his staff, like, the Colonel, his Colonel staffer calls down and goes, "Okay, hey, great effects on the battlefield. Get us your boots on the ground BDA as soon as you can." And I'm like, "We are not going to send humans down this one-channelized road."

• 3:47:17Speaker 02

  But I call the, I call the Green Beret team out there and I say, "Hey, guys, listen, like, let's just talk about this Boots on the Ground BDA." Like, they were, they were more against it than me. Like, they were like, "This, no effing way, we'll die." Like, that's a, we just saw IEDs being planted there. We know the terrain. It's channelized. It's a perfect place for an ambush. Like, no friggin' way. That's stupid. And I'm like, "Okay, that's what I thought. I just want to hear you say it."

• 3:47:41Speaker 02

  So, so the, I call back personally to the Colonel. And I'm like, "Hey, sir, we're, this is going to be a unique situation. We are not doing Boots on the Ground BDA. Makes no sense." And he's like...

• 3:47:58Speaker 02

  People kinda knew I came from the White House and I was like, you know, I know strategy and like they knew I worked Afghan. Like, like, like, I had a lot of credibility with, with, you know, not like everybody knew me. I don't mean to sound more important than I was, but uh, I had some credibility. And this Colonel was like, hey, that's not, that's out of policy. Like, you know, well, let me, I'll, I'll, I'll talk to the general or general about it. But I knew what he was gonna do. Probably the same thing I did when I was at the White House is go just pretend he talked to the general. And I just laid down the law and I'm like, hey, listen, I'm, no, we are not going back. We will not do it. Like, and, and he, and he had the, the, um, the general called down and, and it was, and it was an order.

• 3:48:41Speaker 02

  This was an order to put our guy, these army, this Green Beret team to go do the boots on the ground BDA. And I was like, sir, this is a terrible risk decision and it doesn't make sense. And, um, and we left it in the way that it was kinda like, I wasn't yet like subordinate to the point where I was telling him like F no, final, this is it. But I was like, you know, but it also, he knew my position and I, it was basically like, let me just go get some more information and I'll call you back in a few minutes, kinda thing. And I'm like, really what I need to do is think, you know, don't say something I don't wanna say, cuz I know I'm in one of those moments where time doesn't actually matter. I can take the time to make sure I make an informed decision. Sean, I go back to my room.

• 3:49:26Speaker 02

  And I do what my mom taught me when I was a kid, which is, you know, you flip through the Bible. This is my Trident worn off kinda Bible that I had on deployment with me. And my mom always said, you know, when you wanna get some guidance from the big man upstairs, just flip through and, you know, close your eyes and put your finger on a spot and just read what comes up. So I do that.

• 3:49:50Speaker 02

  This is what I get.

• 3:49:53Speaker 02

  Matthew 24 26. So if anyone tells you, there he is out in the desert, do not go out.

• 3:50:03Speaker 02

  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

• 3:50:09Speaker 02

  From the Bible, Sean. So if anyone, if anyone tells you, there he is out in the desert, I mean, the desert.

• 3:50:20Speaker 02

  Do not go out. Like plain as day, do not go out. So I'm like,

• 3:50:30Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:50:33Speaker 02

  So, okay, so I, so I don't, I've got so many pages like this, this could be a show in itself, but.

• 3:50:41Speaker 02

  So I called the general back and I'm like, hey, sir, final, you, you know, we're not, we're not going out. And he said, and he was pissed. And he said, okay, well, well, Mike, I have the Afghan commando general here, or I don't commando, the Afghan, one of the Afghan local forces general here. I'm gonna order, I'm gonna have him order the Afghans to go do it. I think he was trying to give me elegantly, give me a way out. I don't compare, I don't command the Afghans, like, that's a different chain of command. The Afghans getting their vehicle, they go down that road. Three vehicles, two of them blown up, one to smithereens, three die, three, four, I, my, this is the, this is the thing, like, I, my details on this are so fuzzy, a little bit too, I might be off by a person.

• 3:51:24Speaker 02

  But like three or four Afghans die, which is horrible. We lost good men, good humans.

• 3:51:33Speaker 02

  A bunch of the guys got like wounded in action, mangled up and like, why? So unnecessary.

• 3:51:44Shawn Ryan?

  The leadership is too detached from the ground.

• 3:51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's what I'm there to help. That's what I, that's why you need to rely on your people who are closer to the ground to make the decisions. So I'm deeply disturbed. I'm, I'm, first of all,

• 3:51:57Shawn Ryan?

  Pete Blaber came on to talk about this. Do you know Pete Blaber?

• 3:52:00Speaker 02

  I, I know who he is. I, I, yeah, yeah.

• 3:52:05Speaker 02

  It was, so.

• 3:52:09Speaker 02

  The next day I get on the helicopter.

• 3:52:12Speaker 02

  I fly out to that Green Beret team.

• 3:52:17Speaker 02

  I walk in, that team, the team is assembled, it's just me and them.

• 3:52:22Speaker 02

  I forget, seven of them, nine of them, something like that.

• 3:52:29Speaker 02

  I walk in and it's dead silent.

• 3:52:35Speaker 02

  And their leader, their, their captain says, sir, you made a decision that so few officers would ever, ever make.

• 3:52:46Speaker 02

  At least three of us are here today in this room. Because you had a backbone and you made the right call. And like, we can't thank you enough. And when you ask me what's the thing I'm proudest of in my life? It's making decisions that have enabled people to still be here. And I, I like,

• 3:53:13Speaker 02

  I can't even describe the emotions of hearing those words.

• 3:53:18Speaker 02

  In the, I don't even want, I didn't even wanna be proud about it because it was a situation I wish none of us were in. But like, man. You talk about consequential decisions. Like not caving into the orders the general gave me.

• 3:53:37Speaker 02

  And, and admittedly, I was like, this is a potential career decision. This guy can say, not following orders, you go home. We don't want you here anymore. What about on the next plane home?

• 3:53:49Speaker 02

  But I was like, you know what?

• 3:53:52Speaker 02

  I know what right is, right is right. And sometimes you just gotta go against the grain and do what right is.

• 3:53:59Speaker 02

  And I'll never forget

• 3:54:01Speaker 02

  that moment.

• 3:54:07Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 3:54:08Speaker 02

  But can you believe that Bible reading? Do not go out.

• 3:54:16Shawn Ryan?

  Clear as day.

• 3:54:24Shawn Ryan?

  Clear as day.

• 3:54:38Shawn Ryan?

  And that's happened quite a few times, huh?

• 3:54:40Speaker 02

  Things like that.

• 3:54:47Speaker 02

  You know, you just,

• 3:54:51Speaker 02

  get some wisdom that you wouldn't have otherwise had. You get another perspective. Look, sometimes my mom's wrong and it doesn't mean anything. And you're like, what the hell does this say? Like, I'm confused. I don't know what this says. It does not helping, but you know, a lot of times it helps.

• 3:55:07Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:55:13Shawn Ryan?

  Pretty cool in that exact moment.

• 3:55:28Speaker 02

  That feeling, Sean, of lifting up

• 3:55:32Speaker 02

  on the C-17, the last bird out of there, not having lost anybody. Now granted, we had guys who, who certainly, as you've heard, you know, wounded in action and missing legs and stuff like that, but everybody came home. A lot of us came home with, you know, certainly invisible wounds from war, but everybody was alive. And

• 3:55:57Speaker 02

  it's funny because the last bird out, I remember it was really bad weather and the Tarrin count runway is really short for a C-17.

• 3:56:06Speaker 02

  It had to do this like crazy landing to get in and we weren't sure it was gonna get in. It was like really bad visibility and, and

• 3:56:14Speaker 02

  it landed and then we're like, well, if it lands, it can definitely take off, you know, taking off is easier than landing and, and, and, uh, so we were just praying for this bird to get down. It had done like eight passes.

• 3:56:27Speaker 02

  And it, it landed. And myself, Rocky, who you just heard about, this guy Owen, my supply officer, who was the, one of the greatest humans on the planet and just like the, the rest of the head shed, if you will.

• 3:56:42Speaker 02

  Getting on that plane and then when you're finally out of small arms range, because the C-17s got hit with small arms all the time. Coming out of that runway, like, once you were out of small arms altitude. Like, I can't even describe the weight that came off of me.

• 3:56:59Shawn Ryan?

  I'll bet.

• 3:57:00Speaker 02

  I just, I just,

• 3:57:04Speaker 02

  I just hugged Rocky for the longest uncomfortable man hug that you could possibly imagine, you know? And same thing with Owen and, and the guys that I was with. It was just, we did it. We brought everyone home. Where do we go from here?

• 3:57:19Shawn Ryan?

  You're a hovel eater, Mike.

• 3:57:26Shawn Ryan?

  You've seen the movie. Guy walks through a train station, pulls a phone out of his jacket, makes one call, drops it in a trash can and keeps walking. Clean. That's not Hollywood. That's tradecraft. And the principle behind it is simple. Never let one piece of your life connect to another. Here's your problem. You've got one number. It's on your bank account. It's on your kid's school forms. The pizza place, the dating app, the guy who sold you your truck. One number and every part of your life is wired to it. That's not a phone. That's a map to your front door and it's for sale. Glacier gives you burner numbers.

• 3:58:09Shawn Ryan?

  Any US area code you want. Hand it out, use it, and the second it starts filling up with spam calls or somebody you'd rather not hear from again, you delete it. It's gone. Make another one. That's the loud half. Here's the quiet half. Right now, sitting in your pocket, your phone is talking. Apps you're not even using are calling out to servers you've never heard of. Telling them where you are, what you look at, what you buy. You never approved it. It just happens all day, every day. Glacier's secure DNS cuts those calls before they connect. Not after, before. Two days after we launched, I checked my own phone.

• 3:58:54Shawn Ryan?

  Eight hundred and thirty-seven trackers blocked before lunch. This is intelligence-grade protection. The kind of thing that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars a phone and only went to people with clearances. Now it's an app and it could be yours. And I want to be straight with you. I'm not reading somebody else's ad. I'm a co-founder of this company. I put my name, my money and a year of my life into building this alongside the people who did the work for real. I use it every single day. Install the app, hit connect and you're protected. That's it. It's that simple. TheGlacierApp.com or find Glacier in the App Store.

• 3:59:40Shawn Ryan?

  Remember, privacy isn't paranoia. It's protection.

• 3:59:53Speaker 01

  In deepest jungle, Cartier's panther spies a wandering bird that circles the skies. A lovebird, lost and missing his mate, is far from his path in lonely state. Dry your tears now, there's a start. Follow my steps to heal your heart. Panther stalks through the leaves with silent grace. Through the power of scent, she finds the trace. Behold, two lovers reunite in the skies. A most precious thrill sparkling in their eyes. Together forever, they shine each day, bound by the beauty of Cartier.

• 4:00:37Shawn Ryan?

  What happens when you get home?

• 4:00:41Speaker 02

  Um, well, about maybe two months before the end of deployment. I forget exactly when, but like the, the commanders all get a fit. Like every rank you get, as you remember, you get a fitness report or an evaluation on your performance once a year.

• 4:01:05Speaker 02

  I, my whole career was like one of X. You know, I was always like the, the early promote or like the, meaning like whenever there were like competitive like situations, I don't think of it as, I never thought of as a competition, me and other guys. It was me versus self of go be the best person you can be. But I always was the one of X. Like I could lay my fitness reports out here and like somebody who looked at it, be like, yeah, the guy's right. Except when, uh, or so not except, but when I, I got my, my fit rep as, when I was in command of SEAL Team Two, eight months or so into this deployment that you and everybody's heard a, a good bit, probably too much about now, today.

• 4:01:46Speaker 02

  Tim Semensky, Commodore Captain, Tim Semensky, who is a great human and a great friend, but, uh, he, he sent me the, my fitness report. I have like the one of, I think it was six or seven commanders. Uh, and I was like, okay, you know, great, you know, that, that kind of put, keeps you on the track for the next, the next wickets, the next command promotion, et cetera. And I, cause I, I just never saw myself getting out. I never, at that point I was having fun, doing well, et cetera, et cetera. He called, so he sends me the fitness report. It's signed, it's one of six or, I'm top rank guy. And then he calls me the next day and he goes, hey, Mike, I need to pull that fitness report back and make you number two.

• 4:02:33Speaker 02

  And I'm like, huh? Like you already signed this, like, like, what do you mean number two? Like, can you explain? He's like, well, we have one of the other commanders who will not do a deployment, won't have a combat deployment in command like you do. And I'm going to make you guys the same average. So that your, your averages are the same, but you'll be, he'll be one and you'll be two and it won't matter to your career. I'm going to make sure you screen for major command and promotion and et cetera, et cetera. But I need to do this because if I don't do this, this other guy won't get promoted.

• 4:03:10Speaker 02

  And, and I was like, I was really taken aback.

• 4:03:16Shawn Ryan?

  Cause he didn't do a combat deployment.

• 4:03:19Speaker 02

  He didn't have the opportunity, like it wasn't his fault that he didn't. It was his timing in command.

• 4:03:23Shawn Ryan?

  So?

• 4:03:24Speaker 02

  I know. My thoughts exactly, but, um, what, what Tim Semensky was trying to do was get two of his guys promoted and moved, moved upward instead of just one. That was his intention and it's a good intention. But it's not a good intention when, like for me, it certainly didn't feel right or feel good. Like here I am busting my ass, not sleeping, like, you know.

• 4:03:52Shawn Ryan?

  Is it a good intention?

• 4:03:54Speaker 02

  Well, not toward me, but his, it's a net.

• 4:03:56Shawn Ryan?

  Is it a good intention to put somebody without combat experience in charge of whatever he was going to be in charge of?

• 4:04:03Speaker 02

  Well, you could.

• 4:04:04Shawn Ryan?

  Is that a good intention? Well, is that a good intention for the guys that are under him?

• 4:04:09Speaker 02

  Well, I understand what you're.

• 4:04:10Shawn Ryan?

  Is that a lack of respect? Is there a reason why combat experience?

• 4:04:15Speaker 02

  Well.

• 4:04:15Shawn Ryan?

  Like be important in a promotion at a SEAL command?

• 4:04:21Speaker 02

  Trust me, I had all of those thoughts.

• 4:04:23Shawn Ryan?

  Cause the surest shit would matter to me is, is a, is an enlisted guy.

• 4:04:27Speaker 02

  Let me, let me put, not saying I, let me argue the counterfactual just for argument's sake. This guy had combat experience earlier in his career in Iraq and like he's a combat proven SEAL. He just didn't have the opportunity to deploy as a, as a commander in combat. And so now I would argue like, hey, command in combat is different than everything else. And so your point, I think is right.

• 4:04:58Speaker 02

  And so what I told, told, uh, Tim was I said, hey, boss, like totally your prerogative. You can do whatever you want. I'm just going to tell you that I'm getting out. Like right there, I was like, I will not like stick around. And, and at this point, this isn't a statement to try to make you change your mind because I just made my mind up.

• 4:05:18Speaker 02

  And of course there's the old saying like never make a, a career decision on deployment. I've, I've given that advice so many times in my life and I just, I failed to take it myself. I'm really great at giving advice and not good at taking my own advice. But on that call, like I was just like, I could see it so clearly because one of two things would happen. I don't want him to change his mind. He's already made his mind up. Like you've already like, I don't want to force, I don't want to be back to the number one because I've just threatened the guy that I'm going to get out. That's not the way that I want my, my, that's not, that's against my values, you know? And so I, um, I told him verbally, I said, I'm getting out. Of, of course I'm going to finish this deployment, super strong and everything, but I'm done.

• 4:06:03Speaker 02

  He was so taken aback, like never in a million years did he think that was a possibility.

• 4:06:10Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think he didn't think that was a possibility?

• 4:06:13Speaker 02

  I just don't think he considered how seriously I took, you know, the situation or the issue. You know, it's, to him, it was like, oh, no big deal. You're, you're same average and this and that, like big deal to me. I'm not going to stick around if I'm, there's, the, the world is a meritocracy. I got plenty of things that I can go do outside the SEALs if, you know, and, and, uh, I didn't know what at the time. I didn't have, I didn't have a plan or anything, but I'd seen at the White House or through the White House fellowship, I saw plenty of people that had really cool things that they were doing. And I was like, look, look, in a grand scheme of things, like I don't, I love the SEALs. I love the military. I loved everything, but like everything happens for a reason.

• 4:06:54Speaker 02

  And I probably shouldn't say this, but you know, my, when I, I, uh, my wife was like, hey, the first million dollars you earn, we'll just call that your first Semensky.

• 4:07:09Speaker 02

  I have the screenshot from when my bank account finally, you know, when it hit that, it is on my home screen on my, on my desktop to this day.

• 4:07:20Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 4:07:23Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 4:07:26Speaker 02

  And so that, like, I knew I was getting out.

• 4:07:33Speaker 02

  So I came home.

• 4:07:35Speaker 02

  Myself, another guy Scott Moore and another guy Britt Slabinski, two other amazing humans, amazing SEALs, slab Medal of Honor recipient. Scott Moore, your admiral, like, we were all kind of getting out at the same time. They put the three of us in one office for like three months where we worked out and stretched and like figured out what we were doing with our lives and, and I just kind of, I didn't even do a retirement ceremony.

• 4:07:57Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 4:07:59Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm out. I just quietly faded away.

• 4:08:03Speaker 02

  And I was pissed at the teams for a long time, but like in the words of one of the detailers, he said, Mike, you know,

• 4:08:12Speaker 02

  this is an institution made of individuals and, and

• 4:08:19Speaker 02

  you know, it's not like, it's not like the Navy just kicked you out, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's not like you've decided to get out. You're getting out on your own terms. We want you in. You're still going to have a crazy, good career continuing in the team. Everybody tried to convince me to stay in. Everybody tried to convince me to stay in, but I like, just, maybe I'm stubborn or, or just, or just maybe, maybe the ego was too high. And I was like, hey, I can't, I would just, hey, as soon as I'm not number one, I'm out, whatever. I don't, I didn't just, I didn't really give it that much deep thought. I was just,

• 4:09:01Shawn Ryan?

  And you think it was your ego or you think that maybe the

• 4:09:06Shawn Ryan?

  value system?

• 4:09:08Speaker 02

  Well, I'm being generous to think of other possibilities. I think, I think it's, if something's truly a meritocracy, I would have, I would have not been in the situation that I was in, but I think, look, I mean, I am so glad that happened to me right now. I'm so glad. It's hard in life when you get these things that happen to see it as

• 4:09:28Speaker 02

  a blessing.

• 4:09:30Speaker 02

  You know, and to go through these, like, I had a hard transition out of the military and, um, um, and thinking through like, I didn't have a job. I don't, and I had, three months later, I had a mortgage to pay and like, what am I going to go do, you know? But I was just like, I've heard, you know, Sean, you, you talk about, we talked about it personally last night, and then I've heard you on, on this platform, talk about how hard you had it starting this platform.

• 4:09:57Speaker 02

  Like, nothing good comes from not taking risk and working really, really hard. You've built this with all kinds of probably pressures and stresses that no one can appreciate, but you and your wife.

• 4:10:11Speaker 02

  You know, and, and, uh, and I certainly had that in different ways. And, you know, I was really lucky though. When I was getting ready to deploy, I thought about

• 4:10:26Speaker 02

  our spouses who, who stay home. And I thought, you know, if there's only a way to get our spouses some babysitter coverage when we deploy, that'd be amazing.

• 4:10:41Speaker 02

  I thought if we gave the spouses $300 or so, like, they wouldn't spend it on babysitting. So I was like, I need to come up with a system that gives people use or lose babysitting hours.

• 4:10:52Speaker 02

  And that's it. You can either use it or you just get nothing. And then every one of the spouses will use the 10 hours per month that I was thinking about getting. And there was a, a service in Virginia Beach where they, they had like, you could, you could text and get a babysitter on short notice. It was like a, like a bring a babysitter kind of thing, you know? And, and I thought, what if we could get that? I did the math and I thought of, you know, how many spouses do we have? How many hour, how many months will we be gone? How much we need to raise? We need to raise $800,000 to get every spouse at SEAL Team Two, 10 hours of the use or lose babysitting hours per month. And I thought, geez, how am I going to get 800 grand? That's an astronomical number to me at that time. I was a lifetime member of the Council on, I am a lifetime member of the Council on

• 4:11:36Speaker 02

  Foreign Relations and, um, and I had a buddy who did a trip down to SEAL Team Two. And I called him, he was from Goldman Sachs, and I said, hey, Tim, I need to, I'm not allowed to raise money as an active duty naval officer, but you can for me. Like, I'll come up to, to New York and, and talk anywhere that you need me to talk and we got to collectively raise 800 grand. We, um, I don't remember our final number, but we were, we were close, but not quite there, but we had all that money go to the Navy SEAL Foundation. And then the Navy SEAL Foundation, which of course nonprofit, so everybody's donations were tax deductible. They paid, they covered. You know, that became the payment mechanism to go pay for the babysitting use or lose hours.

• 4:12:19Speaker 02

  And so when we were, when we were on deployment, everybody, every spouse got that. And I had spoken for, I don't know, three or four straight days to different groups up in Goldman or other New York groups.

• 4:12:33Speaker 02

  And, you know, where we are back at the tail end of the deployment, you know, when I'm going through all this, I'm getting out kind of stuff with, with only my, like, I didn't even tell Rocky my number two that. I was just like, this is just for me to know. I don't need anybody else to be distracted right now, and I don't want them to think I'm distracted because I'm not. And, um,

• 4:12:54Speaker 02

  and I got this email randomly from Goldman Sachs, like, two months before coming home, saying, hey, Mike, a bunch of people heard you speak here a year and a half, a year, year and a half ago. We're doing a really big event. It's going to be a who's who speaker thing. It's the first annual Builders and Innovators Conference. We want you to be a keynote speaker.

• 4:13:19Speaker 02

  And I was like, hey, I'm flattered. Thank you, but I'll be just getting home from Afghanistan with my wife and daughter. I'm emailing you from Afghanistan.

• 4:13:26Speaker 02

  And the guy coordinating it said, no, no, no, you don't understand. You can't say no to this. Bring your wife and daughter out. It's going to be President Clinton, you know, Deepak Chopra, uh, like Larry Ellison from Oracle. It's, uh, Ryan Seacrest. He's like, bring your daughter, she'll meet President Clinton and Ryan Seacrest. And, you know, it's like, we'll make this such a cool homecoming thing for your family. It was out in California, Newport Beach. So I said, okay. So I did that. I prepared really hard of like, what should I talk about? And then just got up on stage without notes and just kind of wung it.

• 4:14:01Speaker 02

  And it went, it went really, really well. And the CEO and the president of, of Goldman, Lloyd Blankfein and Gary Cohen came up to me afterwards and they said, hey, listen, that was so amazing. You are coming to Goldman as soon as you're out in another month or two. And they, they, they said a number that I'd be too embarrassed to state publicly here on, on multiples of my salary, you know? That was just mind-blowingly different. And I was like, okay, that's great. Like, good. And I said to them, I said, look, that's great. Thank you. I'll either, in two years, I'll either be good or more likely I'll be from Goldman. You know, you guys, you know? And they didn't think it was funny, but I sure did. So I said it again.

• 4:14:44Speaker 02

  But I made my rounds at like a couple of different meetings at Goldman Sachs. And then I had met Jamie Dimon when I was a White House Fellow. And he had said to me, Mike, anytime you get out of the SEALs, let me know. I, I'd be glad to help you land a role. So I was like, as long as I'm talking to Goldman, I might as well talk to JP Morgan Chase. I emailed Jamie, just like, hey, Mr. Diamond, here, here's where we met. Reminder, three years ago, we met, here's what you told me. And he emailed back like within 10 minutes and said, it was like a Thursday or Friday. He said, can you be in my office 9:00 AM next Tuesday? And I was like, yes. So this was my transition, Sean, out of the military. So I fly up and I go meet Jamie Dimon. And he has a guy who to this day is one of my best friends, Matt Zames, the Chief Operating Officer at JP Morgan.

• 4:15:30Speaker 02

  Like, walk me around all kinds of places at JP Morgan and be like, do you want to work in credit cards and finance and real estate in technology? And like, what do you, what interests you? Cause JP Morgan has everything, you know? And I was like, man, how freaking lucky am I? Like, this is amazing. So,

• 4:15:49Speaker 02

  I flew back down to Virginia Beach. I'm not still, I'm not even out of the SEALs yet. And I call a buddy of mine who was at Treasury when I was at the National Security Council. His name's Dave McCormick. He's now a Senator from Pennsylvania. Dave was at a hedge fund called Bridgewater Associates in Westport, Connecticut. I called Dave and I'm like, hey, brother, I need some, I need some help. I need your advice. Here, I've got Goldman and JP, well, offers from both Goldman and JP Morgan, literally from the top of the, the top two leaders of the two firms. I need your advice on how to navigate this and what I should go do. And he said, Mike, I'm only going to give you your advice live. Get your ass up to Westport and let's do it over dinner. I got, I got nothing but like my stretch routine, you know, keeping me in Virginia Beach. And so I fly up, have, meet Dave.

• 4:16:35Speaker 02

  He springs, you know, Ray Dalio, the founder of Bridgewater, the world's largest hedge fund, and Greg Jensen, the real brains behind the operation and amazing human being, springs them on me. And it's not even like an interview, it's just like, hey, here's why you're coming here. And so now my life's harder. Now instead of like getting advice, they're like trying to get me to come to Bridgewater. And they're, and, and they must know me really well because they said, listen, two thirds of our senior hires fail out here and only one third are successful. You're coming here. Come here, you'll love it. I was like, really, while that was like, I knew that would be a path of, like, the hardest path of, in front of you is always the path of greatest growth. All of these would have been hard paths for me.

• 4:17:17Speaker 02

  But I, I, numerically, all the offers were basically identical. There wasn't like a numbers reason to go to one place or the other.

• 4:17:26Speaker 02

  And,

• 4:17:29Speaker 02

  and Westport, Connecticut has a beach and I'm a SEAL. And, uh, and so I was like, you know what? I can still run on the beach and, uh, and this will be really freaking hard. I went to Bridgewater and that was my, that was my transition out of the SEALs.

• 4:17:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 4:17:47Shawn Ryan?

  Man, what I mean, what were you doing at Bridgewater?

• 4:17:52Speaker 02

  I started out as like a chief of staff for Ray Dalio. In many ways, I was kind of a, it was a similar ish role that I had at the White House. Because as like a chief of staff, like in the business world, I would describe the chief of staff as potentially a very strategic role. Your job is to put things in three buckets. What can you decide on behalf of the, the boss and never tell him or her? What can you decide and then tell him or her later? Like, hey, I made this decision, but I need you to know. Or the third bucket is what can you, what do you explicitly not decide, but make sure it's teed up in a very efficient way? So that you're like, hey, boss, here's a hard decision to be made. Here's one argument for this, here's the arguments against it.

• 4:18:37Speaker 02

  How do you want to think about this?

• 4:18:40Speaker 02

  And let the boss decide like that's the, that is in essence, that's the role of the chief of staff. In any organization. And, and then simultaneously constantly move things from that last bucket down to the first bucket as trust, as you gain trust and confidence. So, you know, these guys, honestly, they just made a bet on a general athlete. They didn't know what they were going to get from some random ex SEAL who had a policy role at the White House and, and they're just like, I think they were just like, look, this guy's going to bring something here. Let's just go figure it out.

• 4:19:11Speaker 02

  And I found myself kind of like, like any first role, you want to land somewhere where you can contribute and be helping the organization, but also learning. And so with like, I don't know, 15 different departments, you know, IT, front office, client service, et cetera, et cetera. How do you help those, those departments within the organization work better together? And in harmony for the good of the whole organization? And so that I can do anywhere. But do I know about? Equities or, you know, debt, credit cycles, et cetera, et cetera. And the underlying business of what Bridgewater did, absolutely zero. And so that's where I was able to start learning a good bit.

• 4:19:55Speaker 02

  And that was my, I stayed there for four years and I don't, I mean, you can keep talking about private sector stuff, but you know, that's, that, that hard, hard, kind of like assignment, if you will. Assignment, I call it, but the first role out of the SEALs. Really set up my, set me up for great success as, because it just made me so much better in all of my future roles.

• 4:20:19Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to make your first Samansky?

• 4:20:23Speaker 02

  One year.

• 4:20:27Speaker 02

  For real.

• 4:20:30Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations.

• 4:20:32Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 4:20:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's just a different feeling. Like to go out and not, you know, to not work, like. When I got out of the SEALs, we probably had 50 grand in home equity debt.

• 4:20:48Speaker 02

  Maybe after we sold, if we would have sold the house, we might've had a hundred grand. After 20 years in the SEALs.

• 4:20:55Speaker 02

  Like. People underappreciate, like civilians who don't understand the military, underappreciate. The compensation aspect of what you leave on the table by, by being in the military. Now, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of people in the military who don't have the hustle. Who, like frankly, the military is like a social welfare program because they don't work. You know, they're like, what I'm saying is. There are all types in an organization.

• 4:21:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:21:22Speaker 02

  You know, the top 5% of the military is in the bottom 5% of the military are the same in the civilian world and the military world.

• 4:21:31Speaker 02

  I think everybody that you've had sit in this chair is in that top 5%. You're in that type of, like you just grind, you hustle, you make things happen. And ultimately, I mean, it's not about ourselves, it's about being able to give back.

• 4:21:50Shawn Ryan?

  I think entrepreneurship is a.

• 4:21:57Shawn Ryan?

  I, I think it's the best segue for.

• 4:22:01Shawn Ryan?

  People coming out of special operations, maybe even all the military.

• 4:22:05Speaker 02

  You know, I. I agree with you and I can see you on this side of it. I don't know that I always agree. Um, because well, you try, you fail, you grow for sure. But like, when I was getting out. I have a really close friend who, who runs Warby Parker. It's a company that makes eyeglasses and Neil Blumenthal, amazing, actually met him at that Goldman Sachs event. He was being, he was selected in a very elite group of, of entrepreneurs. He's built something from zero to very big. Neil introduced me to a co-founder of his and he said, Mike, here's my friend Jeff. Jeff's gonna, he's starting a business right now. I met Jeff Raider and amazing guy. And Jeff said, hey, Mike, I'm just going to start a company. Do you want to be the second employee? Here's what we're doing.

• 4:22:49Speaker 02

  And I was like, Jeff, I appreciate it, but I can't go work for a hundred K and a lottery ticket. You know, it's the risk reward for my family doesn't make sense. That company is Harry's Razors. Like this many years later, I'd be a hundred millionaire or whatever, you know, like, but I don't regret. Not picking that entrepreneur path because while that was the, well, with Jeff, the odds would be higher, but you know, there's no startup that is like. That is anything close to even as much as a 20% chance of winning. And so I just took the safer path of like, go to the big corporate thing. And then do things on the side where you can.

• 4:23:29Speaker 02

  Get equity in a business, be on a board, be, do this, invest, you know, 20 or 30 K of your own money on this thing. And maybe it grows, maybe it goes to zero. But like, I just. Personally, I agree with you from a growth standpoint, but I personally couldn't have taken the risk that, that like you took. I, I would have, wouldn't have been bold enough, as bold as you were.

• 4:23:51Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I. I feel like there's a lot of similarities in that with what, what you did. I mean, I don't know.

• 4:23:59Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I, I don't know, but I feel like there are. I mean, you're, were you not, especially in the next one? Where VMware. I mean, is that, would you consider that similar to entrepreneurship?

• 4:24:13Speaker 02

  I, I.

• 4:24:14Shawn Ryan?

  Or no?

• 4:24:14Speaker 02

  Yes, and more no than yes. And here's why, I actually had another stop before there at Cognizant Technologies where I. For four years, a really good friend of mine founded that company, spun it out of Dun and Bradstreet, built it into a Fortune 200. I was privileged to learn next to Frank D'Souza for four years and, and to be part of the leadership team there. They had an activist investor, Elliot Management, take a billion seven position in their stock and just start agitating. And so I, I helped with that situation. And then I eventually ran the global financial services portfolio, like a. Two plus billion dollar portfolio of technology services that were sold into financial services. And so basically consulting, call it fancy technology consulting.

• 4:24:57Speaker 02

  And, um, and then I moved to VMware. And the funny thing is with VMware. I had never been at a product company. I'd been at a, I'd been at a hedge fund for four years of finance. I'd been at a tech services company. And then a buddy of mine introduced me to a guy, Pat Gelsinger, who was the CEO of VMware at the time. He later became the CEO of Intel. In the email, I could call it back up, but it was like, basically like, Mike and Pat, you're both great Americans. You just need to know each other. And this is in COVID, when we were doing those stupid COVID coffee chats or on Zoom or whatever. And, and because we were all stuck in our houses and. Pat and I had a lovely conversation about anything but work. And at the end, he's like, Mike, you know, I wasn't thinking about this from a work standpoint, but. We really need to transform this company.

• 4:25:42Speaker 02

  You know, we have three COOs that we use more as a title, as a, as a, um, a title than it is an actual role. Just come here and lead the transformation and the operational infrastructure for, for VMware.

• 4:25:55Shawn Ryan?

  Isn't that intrapreneurship? Intrapreneurship.

• 4:25:58Speaker 02

  Intro, yeah. Yeah, sorry, maybe I, I misheard you earlier.

• 4:26:03Shawn Ryan?

  I said entrepreneurship, but I don't know, I just, I feel, I mean, intrapreneurship is basically entrepreneurship, but you don't. Hold the majority of the risk.

• 4:26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would say that's true, um, for sure. It's just a little safer because you're in these big 40,000 person organizations that are already established and they don't need to worry about where they're making their next dollar. You know, whereas like when you were, you know, in your garage, in your attic, your garage, you know, and, and, um. Those days, you probably didn't totally know where your next dollar was coming from all the time.

• 4:26:36Shawn Ryan?

  There were no dollars.

• 4:26:37Speaker 02

  You know, that's, and so your risk, your, your risk was way greater than me going to a VMware in that regard. But you know, I had never been at a product company and I'm like, and, and Pat Gelsinger was, I mean, just. I don't know what he saw or whatever, but he was like, listen, you seem like, like the perfect guy to kind of help us transform. And I had never been at a product company before. And so like my, in many ways, like people can look at my career and be like, man, that guy's got it all figured out. It's so easy and everything like, no, man, I'm a total fraud. Like any job that I've ever done, I've never done it before. Like, I don't know, like I've been just like, like the Washington DC thing, you land there and you're just figure it out.

• 4:27:19Speaker 02

  And, and you land as the chief operating officer of the, one of the world's largest technology firms. And, you know, I think probably a lot of people are like, what the heck is this guy doing here? You know, he's not grown up in our ecosystem. But what you bring is such a different perspective and set of experiences that, you know, I'm an inch deep and a mile wide. A lot of people are, you know, the inverse of that. But I can connect dots unlike a lot of people can. Conversely, I don't, I don't know much depth on anything. I describe myself as.

• 4:27:53Speaker 02

  Like I don't play an instrument, I conduct bands. You want to name, you, you, you name any instrument. I'm not the best instrument player. I'll, I'll go get, I know who the best instrument players are. I'll go get that person and put that person in the role and build the team around, like of all the best instrument players and go do the thing. And that's how I helped transform VMware over a number of four years or so. And we.

• 4:28:16Speaker 02

  We. Basically got it sold for $69 billion to another, to Broadcom and.

• 4:28:22Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 4:28:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was crazy and, and. You know, it was like, I, I still save this note, Michael Dell chaired our board and Michael sent me a really nice note afterwards saying, hey, Mike, you know, we never would have been able to transform. VMware, or we never would have been able to sell VMware if it wasn't for the transformation that you led. And, um, just a really nice, nice note and, and he's a great, he's another great American, great, great dude. And, um, and I, I just. Felt really proud of that successful chapter of, of getting the company sold. And I didn't want to join, you know, the, the new company that was buying VMware and.

• 4:29:01Speaker 02

  I decided to exit stage left at that point, it was a natural break.

• 4:29:11Shawn Ryan?

  Are you heavily involved in AI now?

• 4:29:14Speaker 02

  I am now because what I did after

• 4:29:20Speaker 02

  leaving VMware Broadcom was joined Insight Partners. It's a

• 4:29:29Speaker 02

  venture, private equity, investment firm that focuses on software, specifically on growth, on companies that are growing and that are B to B, business to business, not so much B to C, business to consumer. Like Glacier Business to Consumer, right? You know, we focus on software that is sold to other big enterprises. And how do you pick the winners in the universe out of the, you know, I don't even know, eight bajillion different companies that are out there? How do you pick the ones to invest in? So there's a selection process and then there's a growth process. How do you help them grow? And then how do you help get them sold, either by going public or by getting sold to another company?

• 4:30:13Speaker 02

  And that's what we do. And it's a, I'm like humbled that it's a 400-ish person organization, 450 of incredibly smart people that sometimes I ask myself, what am I even doing here? And I'm amazed every day and learn every day and get the privilege of working with the world's leading technology companies that are, you know, everything from emerging small things to some pretty big things that are consequential. So it's really a very, very cool perch. And of course, the companies that were born before the AI era, we're all trying to help them kind of transform and call it AI-ify their business. And many of them that were born AI native are

• 4:30:59Speaker 02

  are growing in really cool ways too. So it's a, it's a super fun organization to be a part of.

• 4:31:06Shawn Ryan?

  We got a question for you. At this time, polymarket.com has more than 100,000 betting on whether the US will enact a federal AI safety law this year. You've worked at the White House, run one of the world's largest software companies, and now invest in technology. Do we need something like an independent federal AI commission to oversee frontier AI? Or would it slow us down against China?

• 4:31:32Speaker 02

  It's a great question and a great topic of much debate and conversation right now. I think, you know, I'll weigh in on the polymarket side of that with Mike Hayes's own individual kind of like thoughts, but

• 4:31:47Speaker 02

  look how hard it is to get anything done in government. Would you, like, even take the words AI out of there? Would you bet on government doing something or not doing something?

• 4:31:55Shawn Ryan?

  Not doing something.

• 4:31:56Speaker 02

  Of course. So that like, even like, look in the crypto space, look at the Clarity Act was just had a lot of energy put into, how do we regulate crypto? Because I don't care how you slice it, the world economy is going to go digital. It's not if, it's when. And so if you look at like crypto infrastructure and making digital payments on blockchain, you know, that's coming. Should we regulate that and create some clear rules so America can be the clear leader? Or not? Personally, I'm very much for it. And like,

• 4:32:32Speaker 02

  it's funny because like, I personally don't, nobody ever wants overregulation that chokes business. Some regulation, some amount of regulation is often very helpful because it creates rules for the game that people can follow. Like, I shouldn't call it a game, rules for the, the, the system, if you will, that will help create clarity around who regulates what and what can be done and what can't be done.

• 4:32:56Speaker 02

  Like, you know, Congress just had a lot of discussion on the Clarity Act over the last six, nine months, whatever it is, and ultimately it just died. It got shot, got voted down. And, you know, I don't think it's the, it's certainly not the, not the end of crypto. It's not the end of the world for the, for the nation. But it's really, really hard to get anything done in government. You know, I, I personally,

• 4:33:26Speaker 02

  it's an interesting question. I think I need to think a little bit more about it, but I personally, I just think anytime you can make progress at whatever fastest, best pace you can, you should do that.

• 4:33:39Speaker 02

  And then just figure out the consequences along the way with quick fixes to those consequences. I think that's what's best for us.

• 4:33:54Speaker 02

  It's like in BUDs when we're all running around with boats on our heads, you know, and you've got to do a base tour. Can you, do you cut the corner? Or do you go the whole way around the corner? You know, young SEAL trainees know how to save every calorie in every step that you can. You know, and that's, I think that's a good thing. That's one of the best things that we learn is how to expend the least amount of energy as we can in order to achieve a goal. Like, I think that secretly is actually what makes us, one of the things that makes us special.

• 4:34:23Speaker 02

  And I think that,

• 4:34:26Speaker 02

  you know, when the instructors catch us, they inflict pain on us to make us do things the way they think is right. So it's, it's, you get a system of like, do the best you can and then get quick corrections. And I think that, not to, to, to draw too tight of a parallel between, you know, Hell Week and BUDs training with the AI legislation that, that is being asked about by that question, but I think there there's something to going fast and then quickly fixing things if, if they, if or as they break.

• 4:34:58Shawn Ryan?

  Does AI scare you at all?

• 4:34:59Speaker 02

  Not for me. I don't, it doesn't scare me at all.

• 4:35:02Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 4:35:02Speaker 02

  No, I, I personally, no.

• 4:35:09Speaker 02

  I think it's encouraging. I think that

• 4:35:12Speaker 02

  granted, changes are happening a lot faster. But imagine right now about the jobs that we don't have in 1900, these are, you know, just estimates or whatever, but think about how much of the economy was farm-based. I think it's like 40 or 50% of the jobs in 1900 were somehow related to agriculture or the immediate offshoots thereof. And it was something like 10% of GDP, of our GDP was agriculture. Now it's like 1% of GDP and it's like, I don't even know the number, but it's like, I'm gonna guess like 3% of jobs are agriculture-based. That's because we went from humans doing manual one-to-one things with plants to then inventing machines that made us a lot more effective.

• 4:35:57Speaker 02

  Then we moved to machines that drive multiple machines.

• 4:36:04Speaker 02

  And now we have farmers who sit in buildings like this with a bunch of screens and control everything. So now what one farmer can do relative, now relative to 1900, would you rather have that or not? Now, you, along the way, you could argue that a whole lot of jobs got displaced and we have less farmers, less people making money from agriculture, et cetera, et cetera. True statement, but what world do you want to live in? You know, the price of electricity has come down, the price of food has come down, the price, like, that is what keeps us growing. And so to put a governor, a restrainer on growth, I think is a bad thing.

• 4:36:46Shawn Ryan?

  You think we're moving to crypto?

• 4:36:48Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I don't think we'll ever get rid of fiat currency, but I do think that I don't know what timeline, but an increasing amount of transactions will be digital payments. You know, it could be stable coins, which is kind of loosely, you know, it is, it is crypto infrastructure. You know, so imagine like as, you know, right now, Apple Cash like looks like you and I, if you and I move Apple Cash or Venmo or Zelle or whatever you use, sure, that's electronic, but that's riding the rails of the banking system or Visa, Mastercard, Amex, some of the classic rails for payments. You know, crypto is, is

• 4:37:31Speaker 02

  instantaneous, it's inspectable, it's resilient. It's, it's,

• 4:37:40Speaker 02

  it's cheaper. And when you, when you have those four traits versus the classic rails on which payments run, I think the world will always go to where more value is. It's just, the question is what pace will it move at?

• 4:37:56Shawn Ryan?

  Do you transact in crypto?

• 4:37:57Speaker 02

  I don't. I don't right now, but I, I'm a huge fan of a company called Moonpay that does crypto infrastructure. I'm on their board in full disclosure. I've got a Moonpay wallet where I've, I've, you know, I've bought Bitcoin and, and, and watch it and learn. I'm fascinated to learn in this new area. I'm not an expert. If there's any mistake about what I've just said, man, I'm no expert. I know people who are really smart in this space. But I, I am smart enough to kind of just step all the way back and think about the macro forces that are driving us as an economy. And I'm convinced that more and more transactions will be crypto-based.

• 4:38:36Speaker 02

  And, and I want to learn. I don't, whether it's AI or crypto or whatever, I just constantly want to learn and, and and be part of, you know, solutions and be part of the future.

• 4:38:47Shawn Ryan?

  How many different companies are you on the board of?

• 4:38:50Speaker 02

  Oh, I think I'm on the board of, uh, maybe seven-ish? Plus or minus? Depends if you count public nonprofit, like, it's, it's

• 4:39:00Speaker 02

  yeah, about seven.

• 4:39:02Shawn Ryan?

  What would you rather be doing? Would you rather, I mean,

• 4:39:06Shawn Ryan?

  be in the teams or doing this? Or is it just totally night and day?

• 4:39:09Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, it's night and day. I'm so happy doing what I'm doing right now. I think about, a lot of people

• 4:39:16Speaker 02

  ask.

• 4:39:19Speaker 02

  A question like that, or different strains or variations of that question. And personally, I think about the world through a GDP lens, gross domestic product. If you think, what is GDP? It's just labor times productivity. And that equals the total economic output of either the nation or the globe, depending what level you're at. So if labor is relatively fixed, you could argue like it's fertility rates, how many people and immigration, you know, like, like, how many people are entering the workforce and who can work? That number is relatively inelastic, meaning it doesn't change massively from time to time. The massive driver in GDP growth is productivity.

• 4:40:03Speaker 02

  So when we create more economy, more economic output from the engine, that's way cooler than being a SEAL to me because more economic output gives policymakers choices. You can buy more SEALs or security. You can buy more healthcare. You could buy more education. You could pay down debt. You get, you know, it just makes us stronger as a nation. So when I think about like, what effect did I have doing a six-person mission in Bosnia versus now, like, I can have a much greater effect, positive effect for the nation on doing what I'm doing now. And so that's, and I think part of it's, you know, part of getting older too is like,

• 4:40:45Speaker 02

  look, I have no desire to be on a 110-degree roof in Afghanistan right now on day three of an op. You know, like, you know, I know, I remember what that was like, you know, it's, it's, it's, yeah.

• 4:41:00Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think's harder?

• 4:41:04Shawn Ryan?

  I'm sure you make some really tough decisions.

• 4:41:07Speaker 02

  I think, um, they're just so different. It's hard for me to say, like, each of them have elements of hard. You know, it's, it's like pick your hard. You know, you've seen all those pick your hard kind of things and, um, I don't know, Sean, that's a good question. I've never really thought about it in an either or. I think, you heard me spend time in DC, so I know how to not answer the question you just asked.

• 4:41:38Shawn Ryan?

  Fair enough.

• 4:41:40Speaker 02

  I need to think more about that one. They're both hard in different ways.

• 4:41:44Shawn Ryan?

  I love business.

• 4:41:45Speaker 02

  I do too. I do too. I love helping see someone succeed. I love, it's winning. It's winning. There's a scoreboard.

• 4:41:58Shawn Ryan?

  There's no guardrails. There's no limitations. There's nobody to put limitations on me.

• 4:42:03Speaker 02

  That.

• 4:42:04Shawn Ryan?

  It, it, it, it is, you get, you get out of it what you put into it.

• 4:42:09Speaker 02

  I told my wife when I got out, I was like, you know, I used to think I knew, like, what the boundaries or the limits in life were.

• 4:42:17Shawn Ryan?

  There aren't.

• 4:42:18Speaker 02

  Until you get out and you start living that life, you don't even realize the, the, the blinders or the limits that were on you when you were in the military. You don't even know it.

• 4:42:35Shawn Ryan?

  You know, we were chatting last night, you've written, you know, two books. Your transition was obviously, I mean, one of a kind.

• 4:42:48Shawn Ryan?

  Your leadership was incredible, your guys respect. I mean, it's just up to this point, I mean, one hell of a story arc, lots of tough decisions and, and, and a successful, a very successful transition into civilian business, private sector.

• 4:43:11Shawn Ryan?

  With that being said, I mean, what advice do you have for, for guys coming out? For guys who are gonna get out, officers, unless everybody?

• 4:43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, um, I love this question. And I have really, I have some good answers for you, but I'll give you the flippant answer first. You know, I never wanted to write Never Enough. I told you, like, I always felt like I, when I was in these near-death experiences, I was like, I didn't give or do everything I could and share.

• 4:43:42Speaker 02

  When I finished Never Enough, I was like, oh, thank God, I've got that monkey off my back. I don't feel that, like, I, I'm done.

• 4:43:51Speaker 02

  I got the question that you just raised many, many times when guys are getting out, they're like, hey, can Mike, you know, can I get 30 minutes of your time or an hour? And can we talk about transition and this, that, the other thing? And it's just, I've had more requests of my time than I have time. And let alone the like, my neighbor's kid wants to be a SEAL and all this, they're just like, so that's why I wrote Mission Driven, the second book. Because I kept hearing myself talking through not the answers to that question, but the process. Like, how do you find purpose and how do you think about transition? And so literally, I read this on Audible for seven hours and it lets me, when I get

• 4:44:33Speaker 02

  that question from SEALs getting out, I'm like, listen, I'm glad to talk to you and I will, but not until you've listened to this seven hours and it just, or parts thereof. So the flippant answer is buy mission driven, but the real answer is to work top-down, not bottom-up. Let me describe.

• 4:44:57Speaker 02

  A lot of guys, when they're getting out, will say something like one of two things. Either, hey, I just wanna get out and find a place where I've got real meaning and purpose and I can contribute with a great team on a great mission.

• 4:45:15Speaker 02

  And I'm like, dude, that is so non-transactable, I can't help you. That tells me nothing.

• 4:45:23Speaker 02

  Okay, the other hand, the other extreme end of the spectrum is, hey, I know a guy who's got a thing, who's got a business, who has a spot for me.

• 4:45:33Speaker 02

  Okay, let me shoot holes in that one. That's bottom-up thinking. And it's like, I've got a thing in front of me, I'm gonna evaluate that one thing and say yes or no. The point that I would make is first start in the, to work top-down, you wanna work abstract first and think about, and I've got this exercise in this book, but basically, think about the attributes of what you want.

• 4:45:58Speaker 02

  And even if you don't quite know the answers yet, think about, let's just make it simple. Geography, size of firm, um, quality of life, and opportunity to move in the company laterally. I could name 10 other attributes, but just to make it easy. In fact, let's even just use geography and compensation as examples. Like, let's, so what's more important to you? And as you go through this list that's in the book, I want you to score each of them one to 100 on how important they are to you. And then you put them in forced ranked order. And that way, you can kind of see in the abstract, what's most important to you is, you know, in thought exercise, like, let's say you say, man, I've gotta move back to,

• 4:46:42Speaker 02

  you know, wherever, America, so that I can be near family. Well, geography sounds like a 100, comp might be like a 95. You know, being off at three o'clock might be, you know, quality of life might be, or travel, call it, how much travel do you wanna do or things like that? That might be lower. And when you land on that, like, forced ranked list, it's gonna, it's gonna give you information to make your decision. And like a thought exercise on geography and compensation, your, your, your answers should tell you this. Let's just say theoretically, you had a job making a million dollars a year in the city you never, you least wanted to live in, or you had the city that you most wanted to live in and you make a hundred thousand dollars. Which would you choose?

• 4:47:29Speaker 02

  Your map that I just described of putting things in kind of abstract order should give you the answer to that. And so if you do that kind of map in the abstract, now what you can do is turn it into a little elevator pitch. Like when, like, I have such a, like, I and many people, like you and others, have such a great network of people. If you can tell me and walk, what you're looking for and walk me in on what you're looking for, I can then map my network in my head a lot easier and do the filtering to say, oh, you should talk to my friend Matt, you know, or Sally, or Suzie, or Billy, you know, and because here's where they are and this fits what you're looking for. So I think people don't do that abstract thinking first and create kind of the map of what they're looking for.

• 4:48:14Speaker 02

  If you can create, create that, that abstract elevator pitch on what you're looking for, now, somebody like me or you or whomever can help you generate more options. So you're no longer the person who's talking to the guy who knows a thing, who's got one opportunity. Instead, you're generating a whole funnel of opportunities. So like, what goes in the front of the funnel is a function of your logic around, like, what you're trying to do, and then the people that you get to help generate and put things into that funnel. And then you funnel it down through conversations and then you land on the thing. That, to me, is working top-down and way, way, way healthier because you've done the

• 4:48:53Speaker 02

  thinking of, of like, like Bridgewater was super hard and the culture's really tough. I knew that, like, going into there. So two years into Bridgewater, I was like, hey, this is, I, I kind of knew this. I knew this coming in, it would be like this. You're not surprised. So your, your chance for happiness, for mid-range or longer-range happiness is greater, the better you do the abstract thinking upfront and then get to the particulars.

• 4:49:22Shawn Ryan?

  You know, you, you

• 4:49:27Shawn Ryan?

  last night at dinner, we talked a lot about helping people.

• 4:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:49:32Shawn Ryan?

  We got into, we've already gotten into, you know, the 1162 foundation that you have. Uh, we were paying off Gold Star mortgages. We're talking about it right now. And I a hundred percent understand what you're saying. Everybody wants 30 minutes of your time. Everybody wants, for lack of a better term, their handheld into transition into business, into entrepreneurship, into whatever, you know, how to, how to, how to run shit. And, and it, it is, it's, it's more requests than there is time. You have a daughter, you have a wife, I have kids. You have to become a very particular on who you do spend your time with and who you do decide to help.

• 4:50:19Shawn Ryan?

  Who you decide to mentor, guide. How do you, how do you make that determination?

• 4:50:26Speaker 02

  Dude, that's such a great, great question. So first of all, the first screening that I don't have to, because I can just point right here, these two books, you know, because that's 14 hours of me. Um, but then the, the real answer to your question is, man, it's hard. And I, I have a rule that I don't help friends of friends. Like if you, if you come to me and you're like, hey, Mike, my next door neighbor wants to some business help or whatever, I'm going to say this to you, I'm going to say, Sean, if I'm doing this for you, I'm all in, you're my friend.

• 4:50:57Speaker 02

  You know, if this is a, if I'm doing this for you, I'm in. I don't have the capacity to help friends of friends. 99 times out of 100, you'd be like, oh yeah, you know what? I'm not using my, my chip on that. You know, and you, because it kind of like, people don't appreciate how much time people are like, are getting asked to spend in that category of life. So that kind of serves as a really good way to kind of winnow out that first, like, the first, the furthest out kind of circle.

• 4:51:27Speaker 02

  I would do, and then the way I would say it is this, on the other side, man, if you need anything from me, my answer is yes, before you finish your sentence. I just do it. You know, but I know you well enough to know that you're only going to ask me something if it's super important to you. And that's why, because I know you, I know you're only going to ask things that really matter to you. So when real friends ask for anything, I don't think about it, I just do it. What's harder is that middle, right? The two bookends are easy to kind of say yes or to say no. The middle for me is a little bit of a function of what's the potential of the person?

• 4:52:05Speaker 02

  And the potential for impact. You know, it's like, I don't spend a whole lot of time mentoring third graders anymore. Because like, if I'm going to spend time mentoring, my time is much better spent on people who are going to have, benefit more from whatever, however I can help them.

• 4:52:27Speaker 02

  Whether they're, you know, I'll say older, but further along in their career or, or higher likelihood to have impact themselves. You know, going back to that White House fellow essay.

• 4:52:38Speaker 02

  You know, I don't just want to positively impact people. I want to positively impact people to positively impact others. Is this a person that I'm, I'm confident is going to positively impact others? Like when we pick White House fellows, we don't like, it's a major resume ticket, major resume builder. There is not a, like, we do an amazing job of winnowing out, eliminating the people who are just trying to build a resume. And we can really see someone's heart in their head to say, are you doing this

• 4:53:11Speaker 02

  to truly have impact for others? It's, it's, it's like, I always repeat that team teammate self thing, you know? And, and are you, are you really doing this to help? So in that middle ground, I try to assess some combination of impact. You know, my time, like, like, we go through seasons, sometimes I'm busy or sometimes I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I go from either crazy busy to just busy. You know, like, you know, the saying, like, if you want something done, give it to a busy person. I'm always busy. But, um, but even

• 4:53:41Speaker 02

  anybody who's busy has different levels of busy. And when I'm less busy, I, I can fit a little bit more of that in. But the thing that I would say, I learned this when I was a White House fellow, I forget who quoted it. It wasn't my, this is not my own original thinking, but,

• 4:53:56Speaker 02

  it might've been Colin Powell, when we sat with Colin Powell, who was also a White House fellow, actually. But, but the, yeah, it was Colin Powell. He, he said, busy leaders always mentor.

• 4:54:06Speaker 02

  You always have to be helping others. Otherwise, what's it all for?

• 4:54:11Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:54:12Speaker 02

  You know?

• 4:54:16Shawn Ryan?

  Makes sense.

• 4:54:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it's always, um,

• 4:54:28Shawn Ryan?

  it's interesting when you have two books sitting right there and you get somebody to ask, you know, ask for your mentorship and they haven't even taken the time to do that. To me, that's already a, you're not going to succeed. You're not willing to put the work in. What the fuck are you here asking me questions for?

• 4:54:43Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:54:43Shawn Ryan?

  You can't even help yourself.

• 4:54:45Speaker 02

  Dude, you just said it so clearly, it's exactly how I think about it.

• 4:54:48Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, because I get a lot of it too. And a lot of it is asking things that I've, I have specific.

• 4:54:54Speaker 02

  You've talked about it already.

• 4:54:55Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly. And not even just talked about it, but have talked about it multiple times.

• 4:55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, it's funny, but another thing that I wrote in Mission Driven that highly correlates to success is do you naturally circle back to the people that helped you and say, thank you? Very few people do. I can tell almost everything about you based on whether or not you come, like, whether you come back and, and just say, thank you. If I, like, if, if I'm trying to find a job and you introduce me to two people, you're like, okay, hey, Sean, here's what I'm looking for, da, da, da, da, da. You're like, oh, man, Mike, you should talk to, you know, Billy and Susie or whatever. Okay, great. I, after I'm done talking to Billy and Susie, what I'm going to do because of who I am and what I've learned is I'm going to come back to you and say, Sean, thank you so much.

• 4:55:45Speaker 02

  The conversation with Billy was amazing. He, he connected me onward to two other people and it was super helpful. Thank you.

• 4:55:53Speaker 02

  And same thing with Susie or whatever name I just used. And that's just a way to keep you understanding how much I appreciate your help. That is so rare. But then

• 4:56:06Shawn Ryan?

  I'm aware of that.

• 4:56:07Speaker 02

  The, but the, the thing, the funny thing is, it actually, I have a, not, I, I'm sorry that I'm referring so much back to the book. It's just because it's so much of how I think is in there. But one of the chapters is called, helping others helps us more. But

• 4:56:22Speaker 02

  when I, let's just say Billy and Susie peter out and I get nowhere, I can also come back to you and say, hey, Sean, hey, man, I, I've kind of reached dead ends with these two. Do you have anybody else you might recommend me speaking to? Now, if I haven't thanked you, I've gone like, ask, to ask, to ask, like, I'm an energy drain to you.

• 4:56:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 4:56:43Speaker 02

  Never be the energy drain.

• 4:56:45Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of the people that need to hear that. A lot of people that need to hear that.

• 4:56:52Shawn Ryan?

  But, I mean,

• 4:56:57Shawn Ryan?

  have you ever struggled with resentment?

• 4:57:02Speaker 02

  I have, yeah, I would say for sure, because I really put a lot of work into getting these books out there. And one of the important things is reviews on Amazon. It is so easy to click like two buttons, click a review, like, I want, like, like, get that algorithm out there. I'm not making one penny on these books. Like, and I've got so many friends that I'm sure have just given me lip service to say, yes, I'll do a, throw a review in for you and then don't actually do it. And it's the easiest thing to do in the world. And I, I hate to say it, but it's just like, man, I'd do that for you in a split second. And so I, I'd like to think that I don't resent people for that.

• 4:57:45Speaker 02

  That might be a little strong of a word, but I definitely take notice.

• 4:57:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I mean, we just launched a business. I don't know how many people have meant, nobody's mentioned it.

• 4:58:02Shawn Ryan?

  But, but whatever, you know what I mean? I struggled with resentment for a very long time, still do a little bit, but um.

• 4:58:12Speaker 02

  You know how I.

• 4:58:13Shawn Ryan?

  It's an energy suck just even thinking about that kind of shit.

• 4:58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but here's the, here's the thing, Sean, is that.

• 4:58:19Shawn Ryan?

  It always comes back.

• 4:58:20Speaker 02

  It's gonna come back to you via another channel that you can't predict.

• 4:58:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:58:24Speaker 02

  In another time, you can't predict. You just have to stay true to living your life by your principles and to put like resentment, energy on resentment. I'm, I'm imperfect. I'm gonna, you know, giving advice that I probably can't take myself, but the um, why bother with the negativity, the negative energy?

• 4:58:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:58:42Speaker 02

  You know, like when my daughter went to school every day, I didn't say, have a great day. My wife didn't say, have a great day. We said, make it a great day. Have is a passive verb. Is the world gonna happen to you or are you gonna happen to the world? Make is an active verb. Even to this day, we, M I A G D is often in our family group chat. Make it a great day. It's a big difference in mindset.

• 4:59:05Shawn Ryan?

  It is.

• 4:59:05Speaker 02

  You had what, Holiday on here, the stoic dude? I don't know him at all personally, but like, it's just that stoic mentality. Is it Ryan Holiday? Sorry if I just said that wrong. Yeah, Ryan, yeah. Yeah. I haven't read his book or done a review for him. Sorry, Ryan.

• 4:59:24Speaker 02

  But I don't know, I don't know the guy though, so.

• 4:59:28Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about the, the uh, is there anything left with the 1162 Foundation that you want to talk about? We talked about it quite a bit. I do want you to talk about how you came up with the name.

• 4:59:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of my college classmates, one of my greatest friends, Sean Regan, actually came up with the name. When you, when you create a nonprofit, you need a board. And I have myself plus two amazing friends. I'm not sure the third would want to be named publicly, so I won't. But Sean is the chair of our board. And we were just brainstorming like, what should the title be? And he just called me one day and was like, Mike, this is super easy. Kennedy started the seals on 1162, 11 renewal, like new, new, new year, new me kind of thing. Like you're helping, we're helping these widows to, you know,

• 5:00:19Speaker 02

  like, let me say this very delicately, like, make their life point zero zero zero zero zero one percent better, you know, but moving the needle in the right direction. And we're trying to help to give, like, to let them stay in the homes where all of dad's love was, you know, you know, where, where dad, you know, pushed the kid on the first bicycle and saw, you know, and saw the first, you know, successful bike ride, or where dad overflowed the toilet Christmas morning and everybody made fun of him for the next five years, you know, like, like these kind of things, you don't want these families moving, having to move out of these houses. And, and so, in being so close to the community of like, what's

• 5:01:00Speaker 02

  the needs? Look, there's a lot of great nonprofits out there. Like for me personally, like, again, I'm thankfully not a gold star family and I can't speak firsthand, but I would imagine that, you know, the, the three day or the week long trips to kayak or wake surfer or fly fish or whatever are super nice and very appreciated, but they're temporary. You know, when you can pay off a mortgage, it's a permanent thing that really helps. And so that's why I leaned into that as an avenue, is I just felt like from knowing a lot of these, these, these women, I just felt like that was the greatest need. And I think I was one of the, the earlier, if not the first nonprofit to, to pay off mortgages. And now there are a

• 5:01:43Speaker 02

  lot who do it. And I'm super thankful that there are. I don't care about, a lot of nonprofits get like territorial and like, we talked about this a little bit last night, but like, dude, I couldn't care. My only care is, are these families, the women and the children taken care of?

• 5:01:59Shawn Ryan?

  It's, you know, the goal of every nonprofit should be to put themselves out of business, but it never seems to go that way.

• 5:02:05Speaker 02

  It, I couldn't agree more. And that's why you won't see like websites with my picture. You will not find my picture in anything with my name in 1162. I guess now after this you will. But, but um, it's just about them. And when, when I have had the privilege to fly down to Virginia Beach or wherever.

• 5:02:30Speaker 02

  And to talk to

• 5:02:33Speaker 02

  one of these women about their husband and bring him back to life through laughter or re, you know, laughing, crying, everything in between, bringing stories back. And then reaching across the table in the far corner of the random coffee shop and put your arm on her shoulder and say, hey, and, and Sarah, you know what? You don't have a mortgage anymore.

• 5:03:06Speaker 02

  To see that reaction or hear that reaction.

• 5:03:11Speaker 02

  Dude, it's indescribable.

• 5:03:14Shawn Ryan?

  Bet it is.

• 5:03:15Speaker 02

  Those are the 12, those are the 12 best days of my life and number 13 is coming up here before the holidays.

• 5:03:22Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 5:03:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:03:23Shawn Ryan?

  Good for them.

• 5:03:27Speaker 02

  It changes lives. And it's not just financial, because when I do it, I also talk about not being forgotten and how it's not like I'm personally paying these off. You know, I, there are other great people around me that either bought the book or, or made a donation because they heard me speak somewhere or whatever. And, and uh, and I just remind them that it's a nation that is paying off their mortgage. It's not my foundation. It's this nation saying, thank you for your continued service. Cause all of our friends who are gone, they paid the ultimate sacrifice. That's past tense. It's done. These families are paying the ultimate sacrifice every single day of their lives. That's the weight that

• 5:04:09Speaker 02

  I feel, you know, and, and like, I mean, I don't want that to be misheard or misunderstood. Like, I feel the weight and their weight is infinitely more than I feel it. You know, I feel it for them. And so I've been privileged to be in the spots that I'm in. And I just feel like, what's the saying, you know, to those who much has been given, much is expected. Man, I've been given so much. I've been given so much. I, I, I'm privileged to be able to give back. It's an honor.

• 5:04:42Shawn Ryan?

  The Medal of Honor Museum.

• 5:04:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:04:45Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that place looks beautiful. How did, where is that?

• 5:04:49Speaker 02

  Arlington, Texas, right next to AT&T Stadium.

• 5:04:53Shawn Ryan?

  How long's it been open?

• 5:04:54Speaker 02

  March of last year.

• 5:04:59Shawn Ryan?

  What's in there? That place is, we'll put us, uh, we'll put a, we'll screenshot of it up right now.

• 5:05:07Speaker 02

  Okay, cool. The, I, I think you probably don't need to see this. I showed you last night, but uh, we can put that up.

• 5:05:19Speaker 02

  So.

• 5:05:22Speaker 02

  Maybe quickly the origin story.

• 5:05:26Speaker 02

  Dave McCormick, who I just spoke about a couple of minutes ago.

• 5:05:32Speaker 02

  Called me in 2017 or so, 28, 2018, and said, hey, Mike, I've got a friend who needs some advice. He's trying to do this little thing in South Carolina. I've been, you know, loosely involved. Would you mind meeting him and giving him some advice? Dave is in the category of like, I say yes, no matter what, you know, and, and so of course. So I meet this guy

• 5:05:59Speaker 02

  in New York City after a breakfast that I had. And he talks to me about this, frankly, this little thing that he was gonna do with Medal of Honor, Medal of Honor down in South Carolina on this ship that was like, it was not a great vision. And I said, hey, listen, like, um, I just came from this breakfast with, where I got invited by a guy named John Whitehead to join. John had, had passed away a couple of years earlier. And John asked me to join. He was at Normandy. He was an ensign that drove the ships in at Normandy, the landing craft. And just, you know, just a great American, later became CEO Goldman

• 5:06:42Speaker 02

  Sachs. He was Deputy Secretary of State, um, in the Reagan administration and then re, and then led the reconstruction of Manhattan after nine 11. And it was funny, John told me when I, he asked me to join this breakfast group. He said, Mike, you know, you'll add diversity. And I'm like 30 years younger and poor than everybody else in the group, you know, like it's a bunch of rich old white guys, you know? And uh, and it's kind of the, it's like the Illuminati of like, you know, that generation and just remarkable humans. So, um, I forget what I had spoken about at that breakfast table that morning, but I, I said, listen, you know, I just came from this breakfast with, that this guy, John Whitehead, asked me to, to, to come into. And this guy kind of teared

• 5:07:24Speaker 02

  up right away. And he was like, Mike, you don't understand. John Whitehead was like my mentor in life. And so he's been gone for two years. And the fact that you're kind of invoking his name and giving me advice, like, I'm having a moment, man. And he teared up and that made me tear up. And, and uh, and I said, all right, well, listen, dude, like, I'm glad to help. I painted this really big vision for like what the nation needs because our Medal of Honor recipients are our greatest heroes. Man, I've been privileged to be in the Oval with multiple presidents around all kinds of, you know, the top sports people or, you know, singers, actors, actor actresses or whatever. What, none of that

• 5:08:06Speaker 02

  matters to me. The, the one, the one group on this planet that I just am so.

• 5:08:15Speaker 02

  In awe of and inspired by are our living Medal of Honor recipients and specifically, of course, the living ones, who are the ones we know. And I just think like, our nation doesn't have a place, a repository for those stories and to recognize those people. And what I was painting for this guy was a vision that said, like, listen, you aren't just collecting a bunch of like, medals of honor and a uniform that a guy wore on the day of his, you know, action where he received the award. What you're actually doing is collecting, creating a place that collects the values of these individuals.

• 5:08:57Speaker 02

  And if you do this right, you are going to be able to extract those values that those people showed on their day and use those values to inspire America. So the tagline for this museum is actually something like, "On a Mission to Inspire America." And while maybe 500,000 or a million people will pass through whatever museum gets built, if we built this nationally, what we're really doing is ultimately, eventually, once we're all wearing goggles and visiting things, or you know, glasses that have, you know, the next gen glasses where we're kind of accessing the internet and seeing things through, um, through glasses, it's not too far off.

• 5:09:40Speaker 02

  But the kid in Topeka, Kansas, or some other far corner of the country who would never be able to get on a plane and go visit a Medal of Honor museum, how do you reach that kid with those stories and those values? So that when that third grader sees bullying on the schoolyard and sees some little girl being, you know, having her lunch money taken or being insulted or something, or worse, how do you, how do you have the courage, the integrity, the commitment, the bravery? Like, the recipients showed on their day, how does that transfer onto the schoolyard in that moment? And so if we do this right, we'll have a way to not just tell the stories of the recipients, but to go inspire all of America. That's what this museum needs to be. And he was like, dude, can you join the board? And I was like, man, I'm busy, I can't do it.

• 5:10:25Speaker 02

  I'm just, I'm sorry, I just kind of riffed and was ideating with you and kind of telling you, closing my eyes and like, seeing what the nation needs. And he said, no, no, no, like, like John Whitehead, you just told me that John Whitehead thing, you gotta be on the board. And I was like, listen, I'll join the board on one condition.

• 5:10:42Speaker 02

  I get to fire everybody on the existing board for the existing organization and start again. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, I can't do that. I'm like, okay, you know, hey, call me in the future if you need advice or whatever, you know? He called me the next day and was like, okay, I'm in. Kind of surprised me and I was like, oh, really? Okay, like, like, okay, so, I was like, all right, I'm, uh,

• 5:11:06Speaker 02

  I'm on the, I'm now the first, I'm the founding board member for this Medal of Honor Museum. It's my vision for this thing and,

• 5:11:14Speaker 02

  and I called five friends.

• 5:11:17Speaker 02

  Actually, and, uh, and said, listen, I need you on the board. We're gonna go create the most badass, kick-ass organization on the planet. We're gonna do the best thing that you can possibly imagine for America. We don't have a museum for our Medal of Honor recipients. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. And let's go. These are all friends that are like, hashtag LFG, baby. And like, like, let's, let's roll. These, this, it's Matt Zane, who I spoke about, who was the chief operating officer of JP Morgan Chase, Alan Schwartz, who is the chair of Guggenheim Partners, Frank De Souza, my friend from Cognizant I just talked about, Jared Weinstein, amazing guy, co-founder of Thrive Capital, and, uh, and was President Bush's body man.

• 5:12:00Speaker 02

  And, and then Britt Slavinsky, who I grew up with in the SEAL teams, who is a recipient himself, plus me. That's the original six people who all reflexively were like, Mike, I'm in, I'm behind you. And I'm like, no, no, no, you're not behind me, we're all next to each other, gonna go do this thing and go build this. It took like, it was really hard raising money when you didn't have a location, or it was just a concept. But million by million, we eked away and eventually we picked a location. We got offered New York City, Washington DC, you know, Denver, Colorado, like I had, when we were doing our decision-making, I had like, the governor of Colorado and like, Peyton Manning called, calling my phone and going, hey, we really want Denver and here's why.

• 5:12:42Speaker 02

  And, you know, I told Peyton that I was a Pats fan and, uh, and, uh, and we went down to Arlington to visit down there. And there's a guy, Ray Davis, who owns the Texas Rangers, and, and he and his chief operating officer, Neil Liebman, pulled me aside and they had a roll out the red carpet kind of thing, Roger Staubach and like, all kinds of Dallas people, like, to convince us why to bring the museum to Arlington, Texas. And Ray pulled me aside, Ray Davis pulled me aside, a guy who I don't even know that well, and I don't know if I've even actually spoken to him since this, this day. I mean, we've, he's been critical in helping get the museum off the ground, but, but, um,

• 5:13:25Speaker 02

  but, um, he was, he was President Bush's roommate in college. And, um, and Ray said, Ray and Neil said, hey, Mike, like, low-key, quietly, like, what do we need to do to win? And I'm like, well, guys, we need two things. Number one, we need a soft start with 10 million, a commitment for 10 million bucks. And, and in order to kick off our fundraising, we think we're gonna need to raise about $250 million to achieve our vision. And they're like, wow, that's a big vision. I'm like, yep, it'll be the biggest raise for a museum ever. And, and the second thing I need is, I'm gonna chair the NOM and GOV committee, but I've saved the role of the chair, chairman of the board open, so that we can find somebody who is both local and national to wherever we choose. And he's like, I have just the person for you.

• 5:14:10Speaker 02

  Let me just do a little homework. Let me make a phone call or so, I'm not ready to say the name.

• 5:14:17Speaker 02

  Charlotte Jones chairs our board, she's amazing. Like, we would not be here without Charlotte. She raised all kinds of crazy amounts of money and she's just a wonderful human. Her dad owns the Cowboys and she's the chief brand officer for the Cowboys. And so we've just built an all-star cast, besides the names of people I just mentioned. We've got, you know, CEOs of AT&T, American Airlines, we've got Rex Tillerson, who was the CEO of Exxon and Secretary of State in Trump One, we've got like, we've got all of the ex-presidents on our, our advisory board. It's a really remarkable group of people. Tashan Aduket, who's the CEO of TIAA, I'm gonna do injustice to a lot of other people on the board who are just amazing. We've got probably the best board in America.

• 5:15:01Speaker 02

  And the thing is, while those names all sound impressive, the thing, I've personally interviewed every single one of these people to come on the board, and the thing that we've chosen every single time is great humans. Humans who care, who want to do the right thing for the nation, who are individually and collectively on a mission themselves to inspire America. And so we raised ultimately $320 million because things cost more over the years between 2018 and we opened our doors in 2025 with a really cool, a really cool celebration and, and, uh, but I, while opening was amazing, that was just the end of the, I call that the, the end of the beginning.

• 5:15:45Speaker 02

  We've got another phase of growth to kind of come and really work on, on getting out there. I shared with you, I'm gonna start a podcast for the Medal of Honor Museum. I'm not gonna be putting you out of business, I'm not, I'm not worried about that, but, uh, but I'm gonna, damn it, I'm gonna try. No, but, uh, totally different thing, of course, but, uh, I'm thankful you're smiling and not like, about to use one of these guns on me here, Sean. But, uh, but no, we're, we're on a mission to inspire America and the museum is amazing. It's, it's, uh, you know, you, you go up these, these amazing glass stairs into this rotunda where you have a 360-degree movie that I don't think any American has made it through that seven-minute movie and not cried a lot.

• 5:16:29Speaker 02

  It's, it is so emotionally powerful. And then you move from that out into this, like, lots of displays of various recipients and a lot of the things that,

• 5:16:42Speaker 02

  I'll just say like, uh, paraphernalia that they had from the day associated, it might be the uniform they wore, but it might've been the logbook they kept, it might've been all kinds of different things. It's letters home, it's just a, it's a really world-class museum. USA Today voted it the number one museum right away. And then we just found out a month or so ago, we won something called the PRIX, P-R-I-X. I, none of us had heard of it, with due respect to the pre-committee, sorry, but that is a, an award that chooses the top seven architectural wonders of the world every year, and we were the only thing in the Western Hemisphere that, that, that won this year.

• 5:17:23Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 5:17:25Speaker 02

  So it feels great, man. Like, it all started here and success has a thousand fathers or mothers or parents or whatever, and the greatest joy I have is that it, like, dude, it, we've all, there are so many people that played such an incredible part of pulling this thing together to bring it to life. My swim buddy from SEAL training, from Class 192, is Chris Cassidy and Chris, we were swim pair one through all of BUDS, um, and, you know, he was a SEAL for 12-ish years and then became an astronaut. When he was getting ready to leave NASA, I called him and I'm like, brother, I've got the most amazing opportunity, would you become the CEO of this museum?

• 5:18:07Speaker 02

  And it, it, uh, it took a couple of conversations and, uh, and, and, and as he, you know, saw what it was, he said yes, and, and he spent, he stepped down a few months ago, but got us, he got us all the way through the fundraising and the build, and then chose, he chose to go on and do something different. We've hired a new CEO in his, in his, uh, in his, in Chris's, as Chris has stepped down. And, uh, between Charlotte, Chris, myself, the board, you know, it's, we're just all thrilled to be doing something that's contributing to the nation. And the thing is, there's so much more to do. We're trying to build the economic foundation of the museum, not just from visitors, but

• 5:18:50Speaker 02

  from merchandise, from leadership institutes, from, maybe we get some sponsors for a podcast and can bring in a little bit money to the museum that way. And, um, because the better the economic footing is for the museum, the more programs we can do. We've, um, my brother's a partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers, who's been an amazing partner. They donated five, actually a little north of $5 million of like, services and kind, and they helped oversee the development of a curriculum that is now in a whole, like, every eighth grade classroom in Texas and trying to bring it nationally to a bunch of things, so the eighth graders can learn about these recipients. There's just a lot of vectors of where this thing can go, but everything is rooted in values.

• 5:19:32Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations. Man, I can't wait to see that place.

• 5:19:38Speaker 02

  Well, we're gonna do a show down there, right?

• 5:19:40Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do it.

• 5:19:41Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 5:19:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 5:19:52Shawn Ryan?

  Faith.

• 5:19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:19:54Shawn Ryan?

  So I've got here.

• 5:19:57Shawn Ryan?

  Your only regret in the SEAL teams was not sharing your faith.

• 5:20:01Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah, I wrote that in Never Enough. You've done your homework well.

• 5:20:04Shawn Ryan?

  Why is that?

• 5:20:09Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny because in retrospect, when I was writing, I was kind of looking back at my career and I'm somebody who grew up with a deep faith and, you know, very Catholic family and

• 5:20:22Speaker 02

  a lot of like my values and my inspiration or whatever come from the big man upstairs and, and

• 5:20:32Speaker 02

  like you just said, I didn't really share that along the way. And I don't think I know totally know why, but I think a couple of things. Number one, probably the lazy answer is it's partially true, but, but maybe not the truly intellectually honest, deep answer, but, but at least the superficial answer is, you know, I have my own beliefs, but I don't want to project my beliefs on you. You know, and I think that's part of the answer, but I think if I'm honest with myself, I'd probably say something also like,

• 5:21:12Speaker 02

  I don't know, maybe I'm afraid of what people are going to think of me, or maybe I'm, I don't want to be judged, or I don't want negative commentary, or, you know, it's, it's really interesting. Listening, listening to Christian from SAS talk about faith in that episode. It really was cool because he, he has, he took a thought that I've had for around leadership and everything non faith to the faith. Let me explain.

• 5:21:42Speaker 02

  I've always said to myself, like, if I live my life a certain way, like, the best kind of leadership is, is helping like junior SEALs say, I want to be like that guy when I grow up. You know, and living a, like, like, leading or making decisions or, or, you know, being human in a way that others want to emulate is the greatest compliment anyone can pay you. And I've always tried to live that way, but I haven't, like Craig said, he does that with his faith. He was like, I, again, paraphrasing here. Or sorry, I say Craig Christian.

• 5:22:13Shawn Ryan?

  Christian Craighead.

• 5:22:14Speaker 02

  Christian Craighead, yeah. He said,

• 5:22:19Speaker 02

  again paraphrasing, but basically like, if I can show my faith, it's going to help the younger guys feel comfortable showing theirs.

• 5:22:26Shawn Ryan?

  Makes it okay.

• 5:22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, makes it okay. And so like, I feel like maybe by not sharing my faith, I'm part of the problem instead of the part of the solution, you know? I mean, I've always been like, here I am, Lord, I'm an instrument of your peace, you know, like, like, what can I do? Send me, you know, and, and and when, and, you know, like in the SEALs, what's our job is to stop bad people from doing bad things to good people. I've always prided myself on being the person who's going to stick up the person that can't help themselves, help themselves. And like that, obviously, you know, you've been, obviously, I've heard, heard you talk a lot about like what you've been going through with, with your faith and and various, you know,

• 5:23:10Speaker 02

  negative challenges. I'll say that just obviously very lightly and obtusely, but

• 5:23:16Speaker 02

  I'm not sure I'm as brave as you are on that front. You know? I'd like to be.

• 5:23:24Speaker 02

  You talked to another guy. I don't know Eddie Penny at all. I know he was a SEAL and I know that you've talked, said that he has helped you find faith, right? The, the, or, or, sorry.

• 5:23:35Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, he, I mean, he is somewhat of a mentor mind, but it was his testimony that he came on here on the show. Have you listened to his?

• 5:23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:23:45Shawn Ryan?

  Insane.

• 5:23:45Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 5:23:46Shawn Ryan?

  And and it, it, it led to, it led to a pattern.

• 5:23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:23:54Shawn Ryan?

  We didn't talk about that at all, really, you know, maybe a couple of times maybe before him, but not much. And then it was like every single person after him kept bringing it up.

• 5:24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24:08Shawn Ryan?

  Bringing it up. And it, I didn't even realize where the pattern came.

• 5:24:12Speaker 02

  It's not an accident.

• 5:24:12Shawn Ryan?

  Traced it back to that specific episode that we released on Christmas.

• 5:24:17Speaker 02

  Well, and I've seen him on Instagram. I started following him on Instagram and I'm like, man, this dude's bold. You're bold. You're bold, you know, and, and I know, I, like,

• 5:24:34Speaker 02

  I just find it hard to be, I don't know how bold I want to be.

• 5:24:39Speaker 02

  You know? And in theory, like, when I think, think about, like, obviously, I think, like, you know, Catholic, Christian values are, are, there are none finer, you know, and so why not work to help bring more of that to the world? You know, it's not just, it is, it's, it shouldn't just be a nice to do, it should be an obligation. And so it's something I want to work on.

• 5:25:07Shawn Ryan?

  Where are you gonna start?

• 5:25:08Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 5:25:11Speaker 02

  I'm open to any advice you have, but I think, I think starting is just talking about it a little bit more.

• 5:25:17Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I think it just did.

• 5:25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, people listen to this show?

• 5:25:22Shawn Ryan?

  One or two. Especially with that Bible right there beside you.

• 5:25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:25:28Shawn Ryan?

  You know, when you open it up.

• 5:25:30Speaker 02

  Oh, I got all kinds of markings in there and stuff like it's real.

• 5:25:32Shawn Ryan?

  Like, you got any more you want to share?

• 5:25:36Shawn Ryan?

  Anything that sticks out?

• 5:25:41Speaker 02

  None that are as equally as impressive as the one that I left people with. And I think what I'd rather do is leave that as like the one. You know? I've got a lot that were just like, hey, that's just smart guidance kind of thing, but like, nothing is clear as that, like, do not go back out there in the field.

• 5:26:00Speaker 02

  You know?

• 5:26:05Speaker 02

  But I've had many readings that are like so spot on to a situation that I'm in in my life at the moment, you know? And

• 5:26:16Speaker 02

  yeah, and so to some degree, look, like I said earlier, I didn't over prepare for this at all, but I, I did a little, if you leave it to the last minute, it only takes a minute to do. That's my college motto.

• 5:26:26Speaker 02

  The other is it's only a lot of reading if you do it. But, you know, with, with preparation, I, I did think like, hey, am I, obviously I brought that with me. So I was like, hey, I'll talk, let's talk about this. Let's go there. And I think that for me, that's a big step.

• 5:26:45Shawn Ryan?

  Let's talk about purpose.

• 5:26:47Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 5:26:52Speaker 02

  I think it's one of the biggest things people miss. We get so, so bogged down in life with activity that we don't zoom back and understand our purpose.

• 5:27:05Speaker 02

  And so that's why I like the, the path to a life of purpose. That's why the subtitle is there is that like, what is it that gives your life purpose? What are you on the planet to do? Everybody has different like gifts and abilities and interests and skills.

• 5:27:21Speaker 02

  A lot of people out in the world will thank guys like you or me or others who've sat here and say, hey, thank you for your service. And I love that. I think it's nice, but I always flip that back on people and I say, well, thank you for your service. You know, you don't need to wear a military uniform to serve. We call the military, you, like, in the service, but the verb to serve can be done by anybody, whether you wear a uniform or not. And I just think that's one of the things I'd love for America is to take more accountability of the problems or opportunities that this nation has.

• 5:27:55Speaker 02

  And you don't have to wear that uniform and pick the military path or service. Go get plastics out of the ocean, go cut fire breaks in the, in the forest. Go, go teach for America. Like, what is it that you're doing to make this nation better? And I just feel like so many, especially younger people haven't done the hard work of thinking of like, what gives them purpose? We need people who go figure out how to capture more plastic out of the ocean. You know, it's not something you or I grew up doing, but man, somebody's got to figure out that problem. That's purpose. And if you, and purpose can change too through time. It's, it's,

• 5:28:38Speaker 02

  but if you don't have a map, then where are you going?

• 5:28:42Speaker 02

  And, and even me in life, I find myself sometimes a little bit all over, like doing a little of this, little, little of that, but I think that

• 5:28:50Speaker 02

  you know, for me, I think my, my purpose is to use my experiences and, and I'll say wisdom, and I mean that in a way of like, wisdom is just something that's gained from making mistakes through life. You know, it's, it's, and so whatever wisdom I have, I'm just here to pass it on and help you, help others from stepping on the same landmine. Or, or if I can help somebody else accelerate their way to a problem, that's one of the reasons I love Insight Partners is that I've seen a lot of things in business. Not as much as many, but, but certainly a lot, and a lot more than some. But if I can help some young startup avoid a problem because I've seen it before, that's super fun to me.

• 5:29:31Speaker 02

  And so I think I know my purpose pretty well. It's, it's like things like this. It's paying off mortgages. It's, it's Medal of Honor Museum and Inspiring America. It's inspiring at scale.

• 5:29:42Speaker 02

  And my answer though, doesn't have to be your answer. And that's where, and I mean, you literally, I mean, anybody listening, like everybody's answer can be different, but if, if I, if I got a hundred people in a room and I said, write your purpose down on a three by five card, I think, I think 98 to 99.5% of people are going to struggle with writing down that three by five card.

• 5:30:06Speaker 02

  Because we don't think about that. And you just go through life full of activity. Look, it's hard. You got to pay a mortgage. You're, you're a parent of multiple kids. You got, like, it ain't easy. But the time you can spend at something,

• 5:30:22Speaker 02

  you know, doesn't necessarily need to be outsized relative to your purpose. Like being a parent is a purpose. You know, like raising great humans to be the next generation of leaders and people who contribute is purpose. But just be able to know what it is. I just, I think that

• 5:30:43Speaker 02

  we need, we need more of that.

• 5:30:48Shawn Ryan?

  Where can people get the books?

• 5:30:51Speaker 02

  Anywhere you buy your books, Amazon, and do your, do your review, damn it. No, I should say, do your review, thank you.

• 5:31:00Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, at this, I'd say, you know, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, download the audible. I read, I read both of the books. It's, uh, I felt like it's,

• 5:31:13Speaker 02

  it's, it's, it's cool, like you, you have terabytes of, of talks that your children's, children's, children will be able to listen to and know about, you know, great, great, great grandpa Sean, and, and you're leaving a legacy behind in all your work. For me, like this is legacy, you know, it's like reading two books is, is, um, on how I think about the world is something that, that, that people can have. And I just think that

• 5:31:45Speaker 02

  it's very rewarding when you can help on multiple levels and create the win-win. Ideally, somebody benefits from the words on the page, but to also be helping a Gold Star family

• 5:31:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:31:57Speaker 02

  with a hundred percent of the profits. It's just like, man, how, how, how are these not like?

• 5:32:05Speaker 02

  Let me see.

• 5:32:07Speaker 02

  What else do I need to be doing better in order to keep these books front and center? And flying off the shelves? Because the feedback when people do read it has been amazing. Mission Driven debuted at number four in the world when it came out a year ago. Um, and, uh, and so I'm just on a, I'm on a, I'm on a mission to be mission driven, I guess.

• 5:32:28Shawn Ryan?

  You're a good man, Mike.

• 5:32:31Speaker 02

  Uh, I

• 5:32:33Speaker 02

  never enough, Sean.

• 5:32:35Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 5:32:38Shawn Ryan?

  You want to end it a prayer?

• 5:32:39Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 5:32:40Shawn Ryan?

  All right, you lead.

• 5:32:41Speaker 02

  You want to lead? Okay.

• 5:32:45Speaker 02

  Dear God, thank you so much for all you've given us. Thank you for this wonderful time with my friend Sean. Thank you, Lord, for everybody who's listened and will listen to this platform, not just this episode, but all. Please keep us strong, keep us healthy, keep us focused on helping others. Please help us to continue to find our purpose. But most importantly, let us show gratitude and thankfulness for not just all of the great things that you've given us, but for the challenges that you place in front of us. So that we have the opportunity to grow and learn and get better.

• 5:33:27Speaker 02

  And therefore be able to be more and do more and give more in your name. Thank you, Lord. Amen.

• 5:33:34Shawn Ryan?

  Amen.

• 5:33:37Shawn Ryan?

  Beautiful. Mike, it was an honor, man.

• 5:33:40Speaker 02

  No, honor's all mine, brother. Thank you so much, man.

• 5:33:43Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 5:33:44Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 5:33:59Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching The Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review. Streaming October 30th on Paramount Plus. I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for this. He's back. I'm older, I'm wiser. And sharper than ever. Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself,

• 5:34:44Shawn Ryan?

  I can't believe in anything. Dexter Resurrection, new season, October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.