#52 Dr. Laura Markham: Peaceful Parenting with

Parenting expert and multiple best-selling author Dr. Laura Markham breaks down the three keys to successful discipline, how to properly model emotions and conflict resolution, and the coveted recipe for raising happy, resilient kids. Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  That's a kid who's able to be self-disciplined because they've practiced it and they've built a brain that is more self-disciplined. That's about resilience as well.

• 0:18Shane Parrish?

  Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that will help you learn from the best, what other people have already figured out. You can learn more and stay up to date at fs.blog/podcast. On the show today is Dr. Laura Markham, who runs remarkable parenting blogger frequent called Aha! Parenting. Well, I expected the lessons of this conversation to apply to parenting my eight, nine-year-old boys. I was surprised how much what I took away from this conversation resonated with me outside of parenting. For example, Laura teaches us all about self-regulation and how to not only notice what we're feeling, but label it and

• 1:03Shane Parrish?

  react in a constructive way. It's time to listen and learn.

• 1:11Shane Parrish?

  I think we've all raised our voice and bribed our kids sometimes. Most of us who are self-aware about that probably feel that something is not quite right and want to find better, more sustainable ways to connect with their kids. You claim the three keys to parenting are to regulate your own emotions, reconnect with your kids, and coach instead of punishing. Let's start with regulating our own emotions. Can you expand on that?

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Well, the research seems pretty clear that what matters most in how kids turn out is who we are as parents. It's not a set of strategies, right? It's a relationship, and every relationship comes from two people having that relationship. And in our case, we're the The guidance, we're the role model, we're the already mature brain, not that we're not still learning and growing, we are, but we are the ones who uh set the examples for our child to grow, but also on a biological level, our children are born with very incomplete neural systems.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  And so their limbic system, which is the old word for the emotional parts of the brain and and neurology, that limbic system is born pretty unfinished and takes shape in interaction with the parent. Now, all repeated experiences will shape the brain, but when you think about it, what is a baby's repeated experience? Most of it is interactions with the parent. So even, and so of course that's true for babies and how their brain takes shape, based on our brain and how it functions and our neurology. But of course, uh pretty soon, kids are consciously interacting with us, aware of what goes on between us, modeling themselves after us, learning about the world, learning about how relationships work.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  And if we're the kind of person who can stay calm or notice we're getting agitated or anxious or angry, frustrated, if we're the kind of person who can notice and we can stop and calm ourselves down, our child sees that and a few things happen. One is they learn it's not an emergency. It may have seemed like an emergency to them.

• 3:24Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 3:25Speaker 00

  When we insisted it was time to get out of the bathtub or whatever. But in fact, if we react like it's not an emergency, yes, they do have to get out of the bathtub, but it's not an emergency. We can have a productive interaction about it. The child learns from us how to, they, first of all, they learn it's not an emergency. They learn how to communicate more constructively. And they learn how to calm themselves down when things were getting hot, but then, in fact, they realized they could handle it in a better way. So. Our ability to self-regulate might be the most, might have the most impact on who our child turns out to be than anything else we do.

• 4:04Shane Parrish?

  That's interesting. Is it that parents can't regulate themselves, or is there something about parenting situations? Like, is it an adult thing where we have problems actually regulating our own emotions? Or is it related to the situation of parenting and the context in which those come up, which we've probably not had a lot of experience with?

• 4:23Speaker 00

  You're so right, Shane. Because we, I hear all the time from parents who are just fine in the workplace, or even their teachers, and they're fine with their people's children. So it isn't even just childish behavior that sets us off. Sometimes it's that our children push our buttons in a way nobody else could because some, those buttons were installed in childhood. And so when our child, when our two-year-old yells at us, "I want a new daddy," you know, or "You're not the boss of me," or whatever, that's really more like a four-year-old's thing. But when, even when a young child yells at us and is defiant with us, it brings up all our anxieties of when we were that age and

• 5:06Speaker 00

  we had those same feelings. And if we had done that, we might have been smacked across the room. So it brings up all of the unconscious stuff that we don't even know about from when we were one and two and three and four and five. Because the brain doesn't store memories in a straightforward way at that time. Before the hippocampus is online, which is the part of the brain that is the memory maker, before the hippocampus is online, memories are made and stored in a more holistic visceral way. So you can have, you can smell something that will remind you of your grandparents' house, or in the case of one client I know,

• 5:49Speaker 00

  the basement where her mother put her when she was naughty. Or, or your, your mother's perfume, and your mother's been dead for years, but that perfume, wow, it makes you feel loved and cared about. So we can have a smell, or we can hear a sound, or we can have a feeling that reminds us of the feeling we had when we were three and our father roared at us and terrified us. And Whatever is happening at that moment, we may not consciously have the access to the memory because they're not just filed in a straightforward way, but the feelings will swamp us. It's almost like PTSD in this, it works in the same way. It's an unsorted memory. So, young children have a way of pushing our buttons unlike anyone else.

• 6:34Shane Parrish?

  So how do we, how do we learn to regulate our emotions in these scenarios where, like you said, we can be great at the workplace, but in a parenting context, everything changes. And, you know, it even changes further, I would imagine, between single parenting and sort of being in a relationship with another parent who can sort of take you out of the moment and see something that you can't see because you're in it.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. You know, single parenting is so hard because the weight is all on your shoulders, but also because you don't have that other adult for perspective. So, you know, if you're just dealing with your three-year-old, soon you're going to act like a three-year-old. Whereas if you have another adult around, they, they provide sort of a check on that, right? So you're, you're a little more likely to stay in adult mode. So, how can we handle that? Well, I think the first thing is to acknowledge that no one's perfect. We're all learning and growing. And if you've stumbled onto some places where you lose your temper repeatedly, notice what's going on. Bring your conscious attention to it. I think of

• 7:40Speaker 00

  this as sort of going into the dark basements of our psyches with our flashlight. And the flashlight is our conscious attention. When we shine conscious awareness on anything, it begins to, it loses the power of the unconscious fear that's otherwise attached to it. And in fact, a lot of things just sort of melt away. We realize they were just the shadows of, of fear that from the past that were in there. Like, if somebody yells like that, you know, I want a new daddy, then something terrible is about to happen. Somebody's about to get hit. Well, that fear from the past is not actually operative

• 8:20Speaker 00

  in the current moment. So simply noticing what's going on. Oh yeah, when my kid gets that expression on his face and screams at me, I feel like... Well, just notice the sensations. We can look at the thoughts in a moment because the thoughts do are all part of what causes those emotions. But an emotion is just a set of sensations. So notice the sensations. I have a sensation of my belly just got really tight. And my throat got tight and my hands are clenching into fists and my face is going tight. I'm all of a sudden, I'm totally contracted. So I have a choice at that moment, noticing it, to take a deep breath. No tragedy is gonna happen if I don't correct my child at this moment.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  He's not gonna turn into a thirty-three-year-old bully. He's three. This is appropriate for a three-year-old who doesn't wanna get out of the bathtub to scream at me in anger because he feels that something unfair happened, like he's being made to get out too soon. So when he does that, I can stop, I can notice my body, the sensations in my body that tell me I'm having this feeling. I can name the feeling. I'm feeling so angry at this moment. I just wanna smack this kid across the room. I'll grab him out of the bathtub and shake him. So noticing those feelings, huh. Take a deep breath. There's no danger here. It's not an emergency. That interrupts the entire process, and I have a choice about how to proceed.

• 9:49Shane Parrish?

  Why is it important to label your emotions?

• 9:53Speaker 00

  There is research that shows that when adults label what they're feeling, it gives them more control over the emotion they have. And by control, I don't mean they repress it. I don't mean they just stuff it down and pretend it's not there. It gives them the ability to notice the feeling, but not to act on it. It gives them more choice in the moment.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  And so I wanna add a few important points about that. That labeling is just another part of shining the flashlight on it, right? Noticing what you're feeling. Otherwise, we're often just in the grip of what's going on, and the frontal cortex is not really engaged, the part of us that thinks, the executive function. We're just in the grip of anger. Whereas if instead we can pull the camera back a little bit and see ourselves there being angry and notice the feelings, right? But we're, and we say, "Oh, I'm feeling really angry." Then we have a choice of, "Okay, I'm feeling angry, but do I necessarily wanna act on it?" Notice I'm saying, "I'm feeling angry." I haven't said... I am getting angry. I am angry.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  Because that implies that we're at the mercy of anger. That anger is all we are at this moment. You're not just angry.

• 11:07Shane Parrish?

  That we're not in control.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly. You are actually an adult and you can choose how to act on this. I also want to say that sometimes there's a very common trope in parenting, name it to tame it, that is applied to children. When your child is angry, if you tell your child they're angry, they'll be less angry. I find that's A, not true. Most parents will tell you it's not true. If you say to your child, you're very angry, your child will say, I am not angry.

• 11:33Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Because it doesn't feel happy. It doesn't help the child feel understood. Instead, they feel like you're judging them or they're under a microscope, being analyzed, right? It doesn't, it doesn't shorten the emotional distance between you. It lengthens it. No one wants to feel analyzed and no one wants to feel judged, right? So the studies that were done were done with adults, not with kids. And we, and it's, it's important that children feel understood. And it's great if the child can say, I'm getting angry. I'm feeling angry right now. Stop teasing me to their brother, or even to you. I feel like you're being unfair daddy. But it's important that we don't apply this to children in a, in a not very thoughtful way. Because then it actually will drive them further apart from us.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  That's a, that's about coaching kids, so we'll talk about that in a minute. But just in terms of our own self-regulation, it's important to notice what we're feeling, yes. And, and I also want to add, our thoughts create our feelings. So if we have a belief system that says children shouldn't raise their voices to their parents, which most of us have, and not only shouldn't, if they do, it's a dangerous situation. Every time your child raises their voice to you, you're going to feel like danger signs are flashing and you're going to get, you're going to become afraid. No one likes feeling afraid. It's a vulnerable feeling and we feel stronger when we're angry. So the response to fear in most, in mammals is fight, flight or freeze, right? Well. You're not freezing most of the time as a parent, although some parents do, if they, especially if they have abusive backgrounds. You're not running away out and leaving the

• 13:01Speaker 00

  room most of the time. You're going into fight. So when you're afraid that your child is raising their voice and it's making you anxious, what the immediate thing that happens is you fly off the handle of yourself. You go into anger. And if you can notice the thoughts that are creating those feelings, you can nip those feelings in the bud. You can say, wow, he's getting defiant again. Every time he gets defiant, I lose it. I'm going to take a deep breath here. I notice I'm getting angry, but I can choose what to do. There's no emergency. He's allowed to be defiant. He's a four-year-old. Or even, he's allowed to be defiant, he's a 12-year-old. And I can handle this in a constructive way.

• 13:42Shane Parrish?

  It strikes me, I have two kids who are eight and nine right now, and it strikes me that there's like so many things going on embedded contextually in this regulating your own emotions. Not only are you put in situations that you've are one-offs or never really practiced before, but you're also struggling between this inherent sort of like almost hierarchy instinct of your kid is not the boss of you, you're the boss of them. On the flip side of that is like you want to connect with your kids and you, you don't want to be their boss, but you, you know, a lot of the books talk about being friends with your kids and not necessarily parents. So you have all these sort of like conflicting messages. And meanwhile,

• 14:26Shane Parrish?

  if you're in public, you have all of these people judging you. And or, you know, whether they're actually verbalizing that or not, you feel it as a self-conscious sort of individual, you might feel that other people are watching you and sort of embedding themselves in that relationship or in that moment.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Yes, you're so right. There's so much going on there. And I do wanna speak to the question. You just said books say that you don't wanna be the boss of your child. So I think there's a lot of confusion among parents today about this issue. And I think that's because we don't have necessarily role models of adults who were able to be leaders in their homes, able to be um nurturers and still able to say no and provide clear right? It is completely possible to provide loving guidance to your child while you say no,

• 15:26Speaker 00

  while you set boundaries, while you enforce rules. We can do all that and not only that, we need to do that. Children need protection. They need guidance. No two-year-old is ready to make all her own decisions. And no twelve-year-old, or even I would argue fifteen-year-old, or sixteen-year-old, is ready to make all of her own decisions. Of course, the older they get, you know, into the teen years, the more practice they've had, the more their prefrontal cortex has grown, the better executive function they have. But that doesn't mean that they don't need a back and forth with you and still some guidance from you at that point. So I think that we need to learn, and you know, I'll give you a parallel here.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  We want every child to learn that they can get what they need in a given situation that's an interpersonal situation with somebody else. They can get what they need without attacking the other person. That's a given. We want every student that, every playmate to learn it, every, you know, because when they're older, they're gonna need to learn to get what they want in the workplace without attacking the other person, right? Or, or just in life, or with their relationship if they have a partner. So it's the same thing for us. When they're little, we can learn to set boundaries with the child without in any way attacking them. And attacking them would mean Uh attacking their um them physically, obviously, smacking them.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  But it also would mean punishing, causing pain to them intensely to to get back at them for having done something wrong in the hopes that next time they wouldn't make that choice, right? You know, children, and this again gets to coaching, and we can talk about coaching more in a minute, but but really, we can provide guidance and make it stick with our children without being less than loving with them. Not that we are humans, we're not that we're perfect, because we're humans, right? We're not going to be perfect, but our goal can be to function from a place that is not about who's right and wrong, but is more about the level of the heart where we're the leader and we're leading from our heart.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  And what matters is compassion toward our child, but also protecting and supporting our child to be their best self. No child is their best self if they spend all day on technology. No child is their best self when they go to bed at eleven o'clock at night. No child is their best self when we're letting them run roughshod over somebody else or and that doesn't, that includes your family, like their sister, but it also includes, you know, running around at the restaurant and, you know, making the waiter nearly drop things or making the environment loud so other people who are there paying customers at the restaurant are looking like unhappy about the fact that they can't have a peaceful dinner. There are many ways in which we slide our children socially and in our, interpersonally in our homes and elsewhere

• 18:20Speaker 00

  that will be really important for that child to become who they are, and we can do all of that in a way that sets clear boundaries, but is coming from a loving place. And I don't mean, I've had people say, oh, well, I lovingly spank my child. So I do think you do have to, no child is going to perceive that as loving, you know, but because you're hurting their body. Um but I do think that there are ways to say, hon, I know you want to be on, you know, playing computer games during the week. It's not going to happen. You need to focus on your studies. On the weekend, after your schoolwork is done, I have no problem with your playing computer games, but it's not going to happen during the week. And your kid is going to say, no, if you loved me, you would let me.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And you're saying, you know what, I'm doing this because that it is what's best for you, and I totally get why you're disappointed.

• 19:10Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to that example a little later on in the show when we talk about perhaps kids that have two households and the differing sort of ways that parents handle things and how that might create confusion for kids. But before we do that, I want to talk about connecting with our kids, which is sort of like the second key to parenting. What does that mean? And specifically, how is that different for dads and moms? Or is it different?

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Well, as I said, it's a relationship, parenting. It's not a set of strategies. So if it's a relationship, that's what the connection is. And we know from attachment studies that babies as young as 14 months have formed an opinion about every adult who's important to them and whether that adult is trustworthy. And by trustworthy, I specifically mean will that adult comfort them when they're upset? Will that adult accept the full range of feelings the child has, which includes not just needs and need for comfort, but also anger? Is the child allowed to be angry with you? Is the child allowed to be who they are? And that includes be who they are minute to minute with all of those inconvenient emotions and still be loved and still get their needs met. Not

• 20:20Speaker 00

  every desire, but their needs met by the parent. And we know that kids, as I say, as young as 14 months, have already made that judgment based on the relationship they're experiencing. So as they get older, they build on that relationship. Sometimes parents change dramatically and children will change their working model of that relationship. It's good for kids to have more than one parent that they interact with. They're more than one close person. It could be a grandparent, it could be a nanny, it could be a teacher who stays in their life for a long time. Most teachers don't stay more than a year. But children form working models based on every important relationship. And therefore, we know that they can, it gives them more depth of different ways to act. So in one relationship, they may know that the other person has a harder time with them being

• 21:05Speaker 00

  angry. But in the other relationship, that parent's fine when they're angry. So they learn that anger really is okay and it varies based on different people. They may learn something about how to express the anger that's more nuanced than other kids who just, it's either okay or it isn't okay. As they get older, they're building on those early experiences and learning how to have a relationship. And as I said earlier, they're learning, they're not just learning, their neural pathways are being laid down in their own brain and body based on the interactions they're actually have, they're learned to be. And then as they get older, they're modeling themselves after us. And they're having conversations that are about values.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  You know, four-year-olds have conversations with us about values. We just know that's what's happening. When they say, "I don't wanna go to her birthday party," and we say, "But she came to your birthday party. You have to go." Well, that's a question about values. Now, that may or may not be the right decision. That's a different question. But you know, then when they're, when they're eight and they say, "I don't wanna go on that playdate that we agreed to. I wanna change that playdate and go with somebody else because at their house, they have better treats and they invited me at the last minute." Well, then again, that's a values decision. Are they allowed to break that first playdate that they, that some child is gonna be disappointed that they had a date because they got a better offer? You know, that's a question. Um, you know, and then when they're 12, do they get your discouragement or your encouragement when they suggest lying to get into the amusement park?

• 22:31Speaker 00

  "Oh, I'll pretend I'm a year younger," you know? So that's a values question, right? So who we, how we relate to them will, and, and sort of how we make all of the decisions in daily life will shape who they are in very visceral ways that they can't articulate, but also who they are in terms of how they show up in the world for the rest of their lives based on their values, who they think of themselves as being.

• 22:56Shane Parrish?

  Is the way we connect with them different between dads and moms?

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Hmm, yes, I forgot that part of your question. Yeah. So I think that the research shows that moms and dads are often different in the way they relate to children. When there's a mother and a father in a household at the same time, often the mother is the more tender nurturing parent. The father is the more playful, exuberant parent. The mother is the one who moves the child through the schedule, so she's often the disciplinarian. But the father might not spend as much time around the child, might not even...

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Have the same history of having worked out problems before, or even moved the child through the routine, and might have less patience with the child, and so might lose their temper more easily. That's sort of the stereotypes when parents live together. But, and, and we've learned that nurturing is really important, that playing with the child, being playful is really important, that really, parents both bring something important to the table there. And it is natural, I will add, for children to have a hierarchy of attachment objects, people. So, it is natural for a child who lives with both parents to have one parent who they select as being the one that they will most go to when they're hurt,

• 24:22Speaker 00

  because they know that parent is their comfort object. Um, and, you know, it's completely, it's designed by, it's designed, actually, by biology that says, you know, don't waste time wandering around the tribal circle, finding your aunt or your grandfather. Go straight to mommy. She's the one who nursed you. She's the one who, you know, when you're most, she may be stirring the soup pot half the time while you're cavorting around with other people, but when you're hurt, she's the one to go to, as an example. However, and so dads often feel a little left out there, when there's a mom also in the picture in the same household. Dads will often feel left out, um, and they'll feel like their relationship is not as close. I want to say that that changes as the child gets older. The hierarchy is less established,

• 25:05Speaker 00

  and the child, it becomes a more nuanced set of relationships. So, that does change always as the child gets older. But that's very common when, when kids are little. So, often, we don't have that situation where there are two moms or two dads, I mean, a mom and a dad. Sometimes there are two dads, sometimes there are two moms. Sometimes there's one mom or one dad in the household. Sometimes kids go back and forth. So, I think when you ask, is it different what kids get? All kids need the same thing from their parents. They all need to know that they are Acceptable, exactly as they are with all of their inconvenient feelings. Number one. Number two, that no matter what, their parent will be there to help them, to take care of them,

• 25:46Speaker 00

  to protect them, to give them food and shelter and emotional love, physical love. We all, children, need those things. They need them from both parents. And I would say they need to be delighted in. It may be one of the most important things we can give our children is a sense of being valued, delighted in, just for who they are. When children feel that we adore them, when we delight in who they are, they feel a value. It isn't about having to perform in a certain way. It isn't about having to produce certain things like get their, their A or, you know, be, you know, a considerate kid. We, of course, we want them to do well in school and we want them to be considerate. But there, our love for them does not depend on that.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Our love is unconditional. It comes before anything they actually do. And the paradox there is that when we give children unconditional love, they do much better. They do better in school, they do better with other people because they're not coming from a place of feeling not quite loved and valued. So all children need unconditional love, which, which takes the form of delighting in our child. So, you know, men and women, dads and moms, need to do that for their kid. And if your way of being with your child, whether you're a dad or a mom, is to be a little more boisterous and a little more fun and a little more tosh to kids around, great, kids thrive on that, we know. Um, if your way of being is a little quieter, but you read to them a lot and you hug them

• 27:16Speaker 00

  a lot and you're calm and you're nurturing, that's great too. And I don't think it matters what gender you are.

• 27:23Shane Parrish?

  I like how you, you sort of contextualize this unconditional love. I think often, it seems anyway, maybe it's just my perception that people equate their child's happiness with love. So things are done to, to please the child that may, may not be in their best interests or responsibilities aren't given to them because we view it as love to take care of them.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Wow, that's such a great point, but it's, it's, um, it's a little bit heartbreaking to consider that because this would mean that there are parents who are loving, adoring parents who are unknowingly sabotaging their child's development. So a few examples, children want to grow, they want to be competent to the world. Their self-esteem comes from two things. One is from feeling unconditionally loved and adored and valued and delighted in. But the second is from being able to get their needs met, to do things well in the world. All children need to do that. So the fact that we love them isn't enough, it's the foundation.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  But they need to be able to feel like they can learn to do something they want to do. If they can't ever learn to do something they want to do, why would? And it doesn't matter what it is that they want to do. Maybe they want to learn to read, or tie their shoes, or ride a bike. Let's say we've got a five or six year old. It doesn't really matter what it is they want to do, but if they don't learn to do those things, they feel worse about themselves. So when you say not giving kids responsibilities, young children want responsibilities. They want to feel that they can do things, to contribute. All humans want to contribute. We want to feel good about our, our impact on the world. And children are no exception. That's a need that they have.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  So giving kids responsibilities, not in a, in an ogre way, like, you know, Cinderella, clean the floor, you can't, you know, do, you know, go see your friends later. But more in a, we all contribute to the family way. And the research shows that kids who do contribute to the family do better. And there's a way to do that, that is completely supportive and loving, and helps your child develop into somebody who feels good about themselves, right? And setting limits, same thing. You said, doing things to make kids happy. You know, we all know that our two-year-old Thinks that eating every cookie in the box and never eating a vegetable will make them happy. We all know that's not good for our two-year-old.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  There are many similar situations with twelve-year-olds. It's the same thing. So making them happy is not the point. I think accepting that they're unhappy about some of our limits, yeah, that's an important point. That's an important part of what we give them. They're allowed to be unhappy when life doesn't go their way and they don't get what they want. Sometimes they still have to do those things. Take a bath, um, share their toy with their sister, um, sit down and do their homework first thing. You know, whatever it is that we're asking of them, help clean up the dishes afterwards. Those things that they don't necessarily want to do, that aren't going to make them quote happy unquote,

• 30:34Speaker 00

  are all part of becoming a person who contributes and who feels good about themselves and who has a positive impact on the world. And sure, they can be unhappy about it. They will grow resilience.

• 30:49Shane Parrish?

  Hmm.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  If we have those negative feelings and they learn the world doesn't end. And, you know, they can do these things and come out fine in the end and everything will be okay, right? Growing, if we stop our child from growing resilience, it doesn't help them at all. Then we have unknowingly, unwittingly raised a child who doesn't have the grit to go after what they want in life and get it. That's a recipe for unhappiness. A recipe for happiness is to help our child over and over again, choose to give up what they want at that moment for something they actually want more.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  And what they actually want more might be to, I'm trying to think of the examples that I've just used. You know, if they don't want to help with the dishes every night and we insist, you know, that's what we do in our house, we all work together. They become somebody who, who gives up what they want, which is to run off and, you know, be in touch with their friends on their screens after dinner instead of helping with the dishes. They give that up for something they want more, which is to feel like a good person who contributes to their family. And ultimately, the, it's not just that that's good for their self-image, yes. And it's good for their life skills, yes. And their ultimate independence, yes. Something else happens to them.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  They develop self-discipline and they develop resilience. They learn they can handle disappointment. They learn they can sit themselves down to do an unpleasant task. They learn that they can give up something they want in the immediate moment for something they want more. And they build, that's, that's actually building neural pathways between the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system. So they become better able to self-regulate. This is a kid who can go to college. And when the other kids are going off to get high on Tuesday night, the kid says, you know, I'm gonna party on Friday night. I gotta study tonight. And she takes herself off to the library. That's a kid who's able to be self-disciplined because they've practiced it.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  And they've built a brain that is more self-disciplined. That's about resilience as well.

• 33:00Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to sort of responsibilities and resilience. But before we, we move on, I want to talk about, um, what coaching, what does coaching your kids mean? You said coach instead of punish. What's, and talk to me about that.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  So I think that much of the time, if we haven't given any conscious thought to this, we find ourselves with a baby who's growing into a toddler who wants certain things. And we, here's this little human who we can't communicate with so well verbally, you know, and who really doesn't have much prefrontal cortex. So we can't reason with them. And we don't really know what to do to get them to do what we want. So we just start using force. We pick them up when they go to a place we don't want them to go to. We, we say no, and then we start escalating, no, I said no. And maybe we slap their hand, no, don't touch that. Like, because we don't really know how to get our child to do what we want, except through force. And some parents don't want to be that parent. So they instead use bribes.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  They use rewards, you know? And all of that presupposes that our child is an object to be manipulated. Um, or at least somebody who doesn't have much brain power, right? Uh, so we're, we're, um, we're using rewards and punishment as opposed to coaching the child to be their best self. So when I say coaching, I mean a few things. First, I mean emotion coaching, so the child can handle their emotions better. That's a big thing. But I also mean coaching by setting up the environment, which means maybe that thing we don't want our child to touch, we need to move away while the child's a toddler. Put it up high.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  You know, maybe you don't wear earrings when your child is fifteen months old because they're gonna grab at your earrings. You just stop wearing earrings for a while. You can put them back on when your kid's a little older. It's not a big deal. But coaching your child to not touch your earrings is gonna be for a baby, you know, an eighteen month old, fifteen month old, is gonna be pretty hard. Maybe, so coaching means emotion coaching. It means setting up the environment. It also means practicing, helping the child practice so they can learn certain skills. Because children need to practice over and over again. As I mentioned, you're building neural pathways for self-discipline. Every time the child willingly gives up something they want for something they want more.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  So the child who really wants to, you know, you're at the beach with your two-year-old and they're running down the beach, kicking everybody's sandcastles and knocking them down. You know, they're gonna love to do that, but there's something they want more than to knock down the sandcastles. They want a warm relationship with a parent. And you can easily get between them and the sandcastle and say, "Oh, no! Don't hurt this sandcastle." Picking your child up, looking or getting down on their level, holding them and pointing to the beautiful sandcastle and saying, "Look how pretty. Oh, look, these kids are working so hard on their sandcastle. Beautiful, nice sandcastle."

• 36:08Speaker 00

  And then, "Good sandcastle. No touch the sandcastle. No kick the sandcastle." And we move the child away. Well, we might have to do that ten times with our kid, but he's gonna learn, "Oh, sandcastles are something we don't kick. You know, we can build our own sandcastles and knock them down, but we don't kick other people's sandcastles." And he's gonna be motivated to do it, again, building those neural pathways, by the warm relationship with us. If we just yell, "No, don't do that," he might stop because he's afraid. But then the minute our back is turned, he's going to be back to his old behavior, right? Because he has no motivation to go along with us. But if we have helped him learn why, and then we practice it with him over and over again, he learns how to manage himself in relation to sandcastles.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Now, he has to learn how to manage himself also in relation to the candy bars and the checkout line at the grocery store. He has to learn how to manage himself in relation to the, to the children at the children's museum who all want the same toy he wants. He has to learn, or the kids at the playground who all wanna, you know, go backward up the slide, or he wants to go backward and he doesn't want to share it. So he will have to manage himself over and over again in many situations. His motivation will come from us, but we also have to help him practice exercising that self-discipline, so he gains the, the brain power to do it, basically. And also, so he learns the skills. If he's, if we're talking about peers or siblings, over and over again, you're going to be teaching your kids to say, "You can ask your brother, when will you be done with

• 37:36Speaker 00

  that? May I have a turn?" You can tell your brother, "I'm still using this." You can ask your brother, "Please give that back." So you're coaching your kids to learn the skills. So, we said three things, right? Um, and the first one I mentioned was emotion coaching. And emotions are again in the way of all this. The sandcastles, the, the, working things out with their, their sibling. The times that they just hit their sibling or go ahead and kick the sandcastle, it's when their emotions are too big for them to manage and get in the way. So how do kids learn to manage emotions? Emotion coaching. And this is why rewards and punishment aren't that effective, because they don't actually handle big emotions.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  So, there's been some really wonderful research, really starting, um, thirty, forty years ago. Much of it was covered, much of the early research was covered by John Gottman in his book, Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child. But there's been much more since that time, and it's gotten more nuanced. But Gottman's huge finding was that parents tend to react to kids' emotions in not very constructive ways. There are parents who react in constructive ways. Those are the parents who say, You look frustrated. Let's take a deep breath and then we'll try again. Or a parent who says, "That dog's bark is scary. I'm right here, you're safe. You're safe, it's okay."

• 39:05Speaker 00

  Or the parent who says, "No wonder you're angry. When she said that, it really hurt your feelings." And then, in addition to technology, the parent might help the child figure out how to best respond to the situation. Like, "I wonder what you'll say to her when you see her, when you, you know, the next door neighbor who said the hurtful thing. I wonder what you'll say when you see her tomorrow." And help this child to actually consider different options. That's called emotion coaching. Well, what Gottman found is that most parents don't do that. They'll say things to the child like, "That's just a dog, there's no reason to be afraid." Or about the neighbor child, "Oh, don't say such mean things about her. You know you two are thick as thieves, you'll be playing again tomorrow."

• 39:49Speaker 00

  So, the second person, and the first one, with the dog, they both denied the child's feelings. They told the child it wasn't okay to have those feelings. Sometimes, shame is used. "That's just a dog, be a big boy. You're a big boy, you're not afraid of a little dog." That's shame. So denial of the child's feelings, shame. Sometimes there's punishment used. You know, when the child gets defiant and raises their voice at you, and you threaten them with punishment. Instead of acknowledging that it's in fact a communication from your child. "Wow, you want a new dad? You're showing me just how mad you are to say that. Sweetheart, you can be as mad as you want. I'm gonna love you no matter what, and I am always gonna be your dad.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  I wanna hear why you're so mad, hon." And you're opening the conversation to real communication. That's coaching your child. You're re-establishing safety, you're allowing the feelings, and you're modeling that even when things get tense, we can always work it out, we always will work it out, we're family. And you're opening the door to communication. As opposed to, that's emotion coaching. As opposed to denying, you know, "You don't wish you had a new daddy." Or shaming, "How could you say such a thing to me? You know how much I sacrificed for you." Or punishing, um, you know, "Time out for you. You know you can't speak to me that way." That's disrespectful, time out for you, which is a punishment.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  So why don't parents emotion coach? Why do they instead respond to their child's emotions with shame, or punishment, or denial? Or distraction? It might be as simple as, you know, "Oh, you don't mean that." You know, "Let's talk about your upcoming birthday party," you know? Or something, you know, "Oh, that was just a little scrape. Don't worry." "Oh, look at the cute, you know, birdie." Um, whatever. So why do parents do this instead of emotion coaching? Well, one, they haven't had modeling, they don't know how to emotion coach. But there's something more important. And it's back to what we said in the beginning about self-regulation.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  Parents get anxious when their kids have big emotions. They think emotions are dangerous. They don't see how to help their child feel better again. They get scared because no one ever helped them with their emotions. If parents can instead train themselves to take a deep breath, remind themselves it's not an emergency, the child is just having a feeling, it's not a permanent condition. The child's allowed to have feelings, that's part of how children develop unshakable self-esteem and resilience, is that we allow them to have their feelings. And it's part of how you build a deep relationship with your child where they trust you with everything, anything, and they are open to your influence.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  It's by accepting all of their feelings. If you can remind yourself of those things, then at that moment, you can just get curious. You don't have to jump in with solutions. You don't have to tell her how to make things better with her friend. You can just take a deep breath and say, "Wow, you sound so angry at her. I guess it must really have hurt your feelings when she said that." And then she'll elaborate, and she'll vent. And she might say all kinds of things like, "I'm never gonna be her friend again." And you can listen, and you can say, "You sure are angry. Wow, that must have really hurt. You feel like you don't even wanna be her friend when she talks like that, huh?" And then at some point, when she's calmed down, you might even say... I wonder what will happen when you see her tomorrow?

• 43:27Speaker 00

  And if she says something like, I'm gonna tell her I never want to be her friend. Well, A, she's not in a state of mind to think constructively about tomorrow. So it was a little premature, it turns out. But B, you could say, yeah, so you're still angry enough to tell her you you don't even want to be friends with her. Hmm, I wonder what would happen then? I wonder what would happen then? Notice you're not telling her what to do. You're allowing her to explore, ask coaching, also, you're not lecturing. I wonder what would happen then? Allows her to develop her reflective capacity. This is another skill building, right? After you do the emotions, after you accept the emotions, after you acknowledge, at some point, it will help your child develop the skills they need to solve the problem.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  In this case, reflective capacity to consider, well, what would be the best thing to do tomorrow? So coaching is emotion coaching, and it's also helping your child to develop the skills to basically be a person who can have a good life. That's coaching.

• 44:34Shane Parrish?

  I wonder how much of that carries over from adult interactions to adult-kid interactions? Where, I mean, as you were saying that, it struck me that there's a lot of adults who deal with sort of the adult version of those those sort of examples that you brought up in the same way, in terms of being dismissive about other people's opinion or telling them, you know, don't worry, it'll be okay. It's not that big of a deal, but it is a big deal to the person. So we're almost practicing on a daily basis the opposite of what you're talking about.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  You know, humans, humans are scared of emotion, mostly. They don't have to be, not all humans are. But most of us were not raised to be to be able to befriend our emotions. And at best, we see them as a necessary inconvenience. The truth is emotions are useful. Emotions are indicators of something, an indicator of something that matters to us or someplace we need to grow or someplace we need to change or something we want to change in the world around us that's not working for us. So, there's nothing wrong with emotion. What's wrong is when we leap to take action without adding in the prefrontal cortex,

• 45:50Speaker 00

  executive function that says, "Yeah, we're angry, but right now, smacking that person we're having a meeting with is not the way to go. We need to take a different action, which has to do with, you know, X, Y, Z, because we're at work, right? Uh, you know, find out the, you know, go get the, the data to present our position and to strengthen our position and schedule another meeting and have another person there who can back us up and whatever might be the way to go. So, we need to, I think, all of us, notice our relationship with our own emotions, again, back to self-regulation, and notice that we, we can teach our children more constructive

• 46:31Speaker 00

  ways of being their best selves, that much of which has to do with managing emotions. And you're totally right that, that we have, um, we as adults, we just think about an adult friendship where someone makes, you know, acts as if what you're think, thinking or what you're feeling is not, you know, a big deal. You know, what we all want is just to be listened to. I hear from, a lot of times, I hear from mothers, that they will vent to their partner and their male partner will, will sudden, will just immediately start to problem solve. And they didn't ever want him to problem solve, and it makes them feel like they're incompetent. They just wanted a chance to vent.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  And that's true for children as well. Notice with the altercation with the neighbor child, we aren't lecturing her, solving her problem. We're giving her a chance to vent, and then we're giving her a chance to solve it herself, right? To develop those skills. That's what all humans want. We don't want someone telling us what to do. It makes us feel incompetent. But notice why the male partner did that. Because he was anxious. And he got to, to, he could see clearly what she needed to do, he thought, and he might even have been right. And he wanted to alleviate her upset. He thought she would feel better if he just told her how to handle it. But of course, that came out of his own desire to take charge and be a good guy and

• 47:58Speaker 00

  take care of her and it actually wasn't what she needed at all. She just needed to be allowed to have her feelings. And maybe some of it came from his own discomfort with those big emotions. Maybe as she was venting, it made him feel like, wow, here's my usually sweet, calm partner and she's like venting and yelling and she's so upset about this and like this makes me really uncomfortable, right? Might even be pushing old buttons for him. So we all, when we get uncomfortable with someone else's feelings, that's when we handle them in a not necessarily constructive way. And the rule of thumb, whether you're dealing with an adult or a child, is always to accept the person's feelings as they are, to allow

• 48:39Speaker 00

  them, to remind yourself it may not be permanent, the feelings. It probably isn't, and they're allowed to have whatever feelings they have, and it will be so much better for them if you can just love them, complete with all of their inconvenient feelings.

• 48:53Shane Parrish?

  As you were talking about the partner who is prone to problem solving, it sort of brought up relationship problems. And what effect do relationship problems have on kids? And I don't mean sort of like physical abuse, but parents who can't connect or can't model an affectionate or well-functioning relationship for their kids?

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Well, we are still learning the answers to that question, but here are a few things we know. One thing we know is that when there are raised voices, children's blood pressure and adrenaline shoot up. And that's true of babies also, even if they're nonverbal, shoots up. And includes babies who are asleep. They hear loud voices and they get worried. So if there's ongoing conflict in a home, or just ongoing raised voices, children will become more anxious and more challenging because they're more anxious.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  So, conflict is not good for kids. When kids do see conflict, that's fine. They don't think, you don't have to have a home where they never see any conflict. But then you want to work out the conflict in front of them. So, if possible, you want to work it out at that moment. Where you're trying to go somewhere. And one parent yells at the other one, "And now we're gonna be late! Why do you always take so long to do X, Y, Z?" And the other one says, "Well, if you would just help get us ready to get out the door, I'm the one who had to go around and lock the house and make sure the dog was fed and, and, you know, get the apple pie that we're bringing to the dinner." And the kids are hearing this altercation.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  It's really important that once you're in the car, you're driving, you take some deep breaths, one of you says to the other one in front of the kids or in the backseat, "I'm really sorry for my contribution to getting out of the house late." Now, it could be either partner. It could be the partner who says, "You're right that I don't think of things like wrapping the pie in Saran Wrap, or I knew it was made, I didn't even think about it." Or, you know, getting the dog fed, or, you know, whatever. "And you always do, I really appreciate that you handle those last-minute tasks. I'm sorry I lost my temper, I just got worried about being late." And if you're the other partner, and you're still the first one to speak, remember, because you're the one who has the ability to take care of this, because you're the one who's thinking about this issue,

• 51:17Speaker 00

  because we're talking about it and we'll use it next time it happens at your house. You can be the other partner. And you could say, because even though you got attacked, um, women, which partner is which, who got, you could be, you could be the partner who first thought that the person had done the wrong thing. And you could say, you know, um, you're the partner who in fact was doing all these things. You could say, "I'm really sorry that I wasn't ready to leave the house when you said, 'I knew we were trying to get out of the house at 5:30, and you're right that I was still doing things five or 10 minutes later, and we got out of the house late.'" Those things were important to do. "I'm sorry I didn't think to communicate with you about them half an hour before, so we could work together on them. And I'm sorry I attacked you for not working with me on them.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  I should have clearly expressed the list of what I saw that had to be done, so we could work together." So, it doesn't matter which person you are, whether you attacked the other person or you felt attacked, it doesn't matter. The thing to do is to extend an olive branch and say, "I'm sorry for my contribution to this." And part of it is the exact thing, I listed the exact things you're saying, but Richard, about the content, but part of it is also, I'm sorry that I got frustrated with you. I'm sorry I acted like it was all your fault. I'm sorry I didn't take more responsibility earlier on to avoid the problem. Um, and I want to work together with you in the future on this. Let's figure out a way that we don't have, we seem to have this argument a lot.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Let's figure out a way that we can head this far with the past next time. I don't like it when we raise our voices to each other. I love you so much and I don't want that kind of relationship with you. I always want to, I know we can always work things out and we can figure this out. The two of us are smart enough to figure out a better way to handle this. Notice your kids are watching from the backseat. What are your kids learning? Wow, some people get frustrated, sometimes people get frustrated. They raise their voices at each other, but they can make up. They can be reasonable, they can extend the hand of peace, they can apologize for their part of it, even if the other person is still stewing. And if the other person is still angry and doesn't know how to respond at that point, and doesn't, you can say, I can see you're still angry about this. I know we'll work it out later.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  We'll make a plan to work it out when we get home. Right now, let's just have a good time, okay? We're gonna get there a little bit late, it's gonna be okay. We're gonna all be okay. Our, our host won't mind or whatever, you know, you make it less of an emergency.

• 53:40Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  And then maybe you say, hey, who's up for music? What kind of music do we want? And you switch the subject. But your kids got that there's proactive things they can do. And that their parents are not, because if you just don't mention it again, your kids don't know how that gets resolved, they don't have any role model.

• 53:56Shane Parrish?

  What about parents who suppress that? So on one, that sounds like a very constructive view, right? So on one hand, you have people who argue and don't resolve it, uh, and the kids see that. And then you have parents who, who sort of get into a moment or in the heat of the, heat of the moment, something happens that they would otherwise not want to. And then they demonstrate sort of a correct way or a very adult, uh, way to deal with the situation. Uh, what about the people who suppress that? And don't, don't actually say anything, but then feel something and can't communicate that to their, their partner? How does that affect the parenting relationship?

• 54:35Speaker 00

  So they feel something, we know they feel something, but they're not modeling for their child, how to work that out. So the parent-child relationship um is eroded a little bit because the child sees that parent as not completely emotionally trustworthy. This parent is capable of attacking the other parent, or this parent lets themselves be attacked and doesn't stand up for themselves and doesn't try to work things out. This person is somewhat powerless and at the mercy of relationships.

• 55:02Shane Parrish?

  Hmm.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Or this person did the attack and didn't take responsibility for it. Either way, the parent is not taking emotional responsibility and the child sees them as not completely trustworthy. So the child can still have a good relationship with that person, but maybe the child feels they need to protect this parent in the future from the other parent. And that's a responsibility your child should not have. Or maybe the child sees this parent to be attacking and they don't totally trust this parent not to attack them sometime, right? So it's gonna affect your relationship with your child, that's one thing. Of course, you're also modeling a less than constructive way of relating to a partner for your child, right? And of course, you're undermining your marriage or other partnership.

• 55:41Shane Parrish?

  Hmm.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Right? Because you're not, not, you know, I totally understand not knowing how to make it better. I understand being in that car and not knowing what to say, or feeling furious, like, how come he always attacks me for this? And I'm always the one who pulls the weight around here. Or the other person saying to themselves, it's not because of those things, it's because she put on her makeup for 20 minutes, or whatever it is, and they're still holding a grudge against each other. I understand being in that position, but if that's where you find yourself, then you need to do some work on that, because holding the grudge will erode your relationship. Now, you said, what about suppressing it? A lot of people don't know how to work out conflict in a constructive way, so they just swallow it. They just remind themselves, this is my partner who I love,

• 56:27Speaker 00

  you know, we're gonna have blowups, that is, it's fine, we'll, you know, and as they're getting, maybe not in the car, but as they're getting out of the car, they might squeeze their partner's hand and whisper, I'm sorry, or they might not whisper, I'm sorry, they may just squeeze their partner's hand and say, let's have a good time, okay? And that's that, right? And then it's swept under the rug, it's forgotten about. But what happens there is that you're, you, you're putting a little brick in a wall between you and your partner, a wall of Unaired, unexplored and unworked out grievances, where you basically think your partner was acting like a jerk and you were right. And that's the brick. The brick is a judgment that it's all their fault.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  And next time you have an altercation, it will be worse because you didn't actually work this one out. When you say stuff, what if you just suppress it? Suppressing conflict does not work, but also expressing conflict as an attack on the other person doesn't work. What works is taking responsibility for everything you can take responsibility for in your end of it and having compassion for your partner, which opens the door to them being able to have compassion back and to take responsibility for their end.

• 57:37Shane Parrish?

  It's a good segue into sort of like, how do we encourage kids to take more responsibility? You know, a recent example I had was my kids went to school and it was raining and they didn't have rain boots. And I had sort of prompted them and they're eight and nine and I just kind of let them go with their shoes. As sort of a natural consequence to that, but I'm always looking for ways to, A, I'm looking like, is that age appropriate? I don't know. But I mean, I'm always looking for ways to give my kids more responsibility. And I'm not quite sure what that means. Can you help me understand that?

• 58:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And I was using responsibility in the emotional sense of stepping up and taking responsibility for your end of altercation. But you're right, it's about stepping up and taking responsibility for every action you take. And ultimately, if you want a good life, it's about taking responsibility even for the thoughts you have, because the thoughts create the emotions. So if your thought is, just to finish that last point, if your thought is my partner is being a jerk or my partner often is a jerk, you're going to have a very different relationship than if your thought is, wow. We always have a hard time when we're leaving the house because of X, Y, and Z, but we could solve those things. Right? Very different. If we work at it together as a team, right? Very different.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  So responsibility for themselves, as in wearing boots. So age appropriate? Yes. So, so first of all, a five-year-old doesn't care if their feet get wet. So they're gonna resist putting on their boots unless they love their boots and it gives them permission to stomp in the puddles. And then they'll be thrilled about the boots, right?

• 59:14Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  But the five-year-old is not probably think about the boots themselves, usually. Whereas an eight or nine-year-old could consider that, yes, boots, it's raining, boots are a smart idea. But is that a habit yet? Right? I mean, some people don't use umbrellas. They just don't have the habit of using umbrellas and it would never hurt them to take an umbrella, right? Other people are in the habit. Every time it rains, they grab an umbrella, right? So what, so part of it is, is there a habit of, oh, it's raining, what's the checklist for things we do when it's raining? The checklist is, we wear our, our rain boots and we wear, we grab an umbrella maybe, or we, we put on a raincoat, right? So do your kids have that checklist? Most eight or nine-year-olds would need help with that checklist, depending on how much it rains where you live, right?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Um, so, so it's age appropriate that you had to remind them first. B, they resist it. What else is age appropriate with kids in the, maybe not at six, seven as much, but certainly by nine or 10? What's age appropriate? They're concerned about what their peers are doing. If they're wearing rain boots, will their peers be wearing rain boots when they get to school? If not, will they be feeling uncomfortable? They would rather have wet feet than have that happen. So that's also age appropriate for that age. So they might resist the rain boots for that reason. So the first thing I would find out if I suggest rain boots and they don't wanna wear them is, it just sounds like you don't wanna wear them. Did the other kids wear rain boots? You, you're trying to find out why they don't wanna wear rain boots. You might just ask explicitly and they might go, I don't like them.

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  And then you might have to ask, why don't you like them? Are they hot? Do they, they wanna wear their shoes and change back when they get to school? Uh, do they not think their feet will be very wet? Would they rather have wet feet than have boots that w- look dorky? You know, like what's going on with that? So. They might well just tell you the truth at that point if you have a good relationship with them. And they know you won't laugh at them, which is they're just dorky dad. Everybody makes, you know, when kids wear rain boots, the cool kids don't wear rain boots. That's maybe what it comes down to, we don't know. And then, you know, you might have to establish that the cool kids get dropped there by their parents in cars. Whereas your kid's about to stand at the school bus stop and gonna get on the school bus. And they might have very wet feet by the time they get to school.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  And would they really rather have wet feet instead of, you know, looking, you know, cool when they arrive? And they could bring their shoes with them to change to, whatever. So there's all of that stuff that goes on. But I guess, you know, responsibility is a complicated thing. Like responsibility, I don't think this was about responsibility wearing their rain boots. I think it was about making a considered choice because it was, it was just much more nuanced than that. Responsibility might be, did they bring home their history book when they have to study for a history test? And that was their responsibility. That would be a question of did they take responsibility for that? And for that, when do they begin to take responsibility? I think as soon as it becomes clear that no one's gonna rescue them.

• 1:02:04Shane Parrish?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  You might rescue them the first, right? The first time when they come home and they go, the nine year old says, you say, hey, what's your homework situation? Um, book report and history test. Oh, you have a history test tomorrow, huh? Yeah. Oh, so is it, is it for the chapter you've been doing on colonialism or whatever it is? And the kid goes, yeah. And then, then when they go to sit down and work on it, they realize, oh, my goodness, I forgot my history book. And you say, oops, wow, that's a big mistake. I'm not even sure we can get into the school now. How are you gonna solve this problem? And your kid's gonna start trying to solve the problem. They might think you should drive them back to the school and they should try to get into the school. And the first time it happens, I would even do it, but probably never again.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  And I would be pretty clear about it. Wow, thank goodness we were still able to get into the school. Thank goodness I had the ability to drive you back today, the time. But you know what? I wanna let you know, your studies are your responsibility. So it is your job to make sure that you don't forget your books. So it's only the beginning of fourth grade. I was willing to do it this time, but from now on, not gonna happen. So how are we gonna avoid this problem next time? And then the next time, they're probably still gonna forget their science book. And at that point, you're gonna say, oh, buddy, I'm so sorry. No, I can't drive you back right now. I know, I know, I could, I'm not going to. It's your responsibility and you didn't remember it.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Remember, we came up with this system, sounds to me to to make sure you have all your books at the end of the day. Sounds to me like you didn't use that system. But I'm betting after this, you're going to use the system. So what can you do? And maybe they're going to figure out that they can call other people and, you know, whatever, that they have some notes that they can refer to, whatever. And maybe they're going to just totally screw up the test. And maybe they're going to be angry at you about it. And if they are, you can say, I can see why you'd rather blame me than yourself. I totally understand that. And it's your responsibility. I'm here to help you in any way I can to come up with a good system. And I'm willing to quiz you every day about whether you were able to maintain your system. Do you remember to bring your books home? But I'm not going to be your fail safe. And fail safe wouldn't be the word. I'm not going to.

• 1:04:14Shane Parrish?

  Ensure your success.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you're going to ensure your success ultimately because I won't be there when you're in high school and college to be able to go get your textbook with you. So now's the time to learn.

• 1:04:24Shane Parrish?

  I like what you said about sort of dealing with children. I I think you talked about it just cursory in your response there about how a child is prone to avoid responsibility or shape the world so that somebody else is at fault and not them. How can we deal better with those situations where children are prone to put the like if my son forgot his lunch or something? He might say that, you know, it was my job to remind him. How do we deal with that sort of things?

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Well, let's take the lunches as a great example because every parent has gone through that. The minute you notice that you're the reminder, I mean, you might bring the lunch for them when they're five without even thinking twice. But at some point, and I would say five is a great time if you haven't started already. You want to work with them to pack their backpack. What goes in your backpack? This goes your show and tell thing for tomorrow, your lunch, and then as they get older, a school book. So they are always working with you to pack their backpack.

• 1:05:22Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  And if it's the night before that they're packing their backpack, then something goes on the front of the backpack that reminds them about anything that's not in the backpack that has to be added at the last minute, like the lunch. So that morning before they go out the door, if that, if you notice that the thing is still on the backpack, the lunch reminder, you would stop before you go out the door and go, "Does everybody have everything we need?" And your kids are like, "Yeah, yeah." And you would say, "So we have our backpacks we packed last night, that's all good. And what about any reminders for anything we had to add this morning?" And your kid goes, "Oops, my lunch!" And they raise and they get their lunch. And over time, your kid is gonna teach themselves to remember that their lunch goes in there. You should not be, by the time they're eight or nine years old,

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  reminding them to get their lunch. This should be something certainly an eight or nine year old can remember their lunch and it's their job. And if your kid says to you, "I forgot my lunch and you didn't remind me." The first thing to do is take responsibility if indeed you're usually the reminder. If they haven't developed this practice because you didn't help them do it, as I've just described, then you are responsible because you were the reminder. You were the reminder. It's sort of like if your partner always puts the gas in the car and you run out of gas, you really do have a leg to stand on when you say, "And the car ran out of gas. I haven't put gas in the car in two years. You're the one who always does it. Why didn't you do it?" Well, is it really their fault? No, you ran out of gas. But there's a way in which they're always the one who keeps gas in the car. Maybe they use it more often, maybe there's some other reason.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  So, so you really are right in a way. You've trained yourself not to do that, not to notice, right? So your kid is right. You're the reminder. So if a kid said that to me and I real, I looked at that honestly and thought, "Well, it should be your responsibility, but honestly, I remind you every single day. No wonder you think it's my job." I would say, "Well, you're right. I did forget to remind you." "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I forgot to remind you." "All right, well, I am really sorry about that. I'm so sorry you don't have a lunch." You may or may not, by the way, be able to bring the lunch to them. Maybe you're at work and you can't bring them the lunch, in which case you say, "I am so sorry you're gonna go without lunch today. We're gonna come up with a system tomorrow, you know, starting tonight to make sure this never happens again." You know, and then you're done.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  Um, you're probably not bringing the lunch to them. If it really is that you've been reminding them and you really can bring them the lunch, I don't have any problem with bringing them the lunch. But again, I would bet night say, so you know, I thank goodness I was able to bring you your lunch. But we're never going to go through this again. The truth is, I can mostly can't bring you your lunch. And it's not my job to, and it's not even my job to remind you. It's your job to bring your lunch. So let's come up with a system that works. And then you start training your child, just as I described before. No shame, no blame, no, you should have learned this five years ago, just right now, we're going to start. You're going to learn how to do this and we're going to work together. And you play the same, sort of like, you know, something obvious, like potty training.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  We're very involved in the beginning and over time, we're not involved at all.

• 1:08:19Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  And it's the same thing with remembering lunch, right? Or any other skill. So we're very involved in the beginning, but it's their job to master it. And then we're not involved at all.

• 1:08:29Shane Parrish?

  And what, what if it's clearly their job? Or, you know, we're using the lunch example, but it could be anything where it's clearly their responsibility and they're not accepting blame. Is it just a matter of acknowledging their feelings and then reminding them that they're actually responsible for that task?

• 1:08:45Speaker 00

  Give me an example.

• 1:08:46Shane Parrish?

  Uh, well, we can go back to the lunch example. So if, you know, every day you're in the habit of putting the lunch on the counter and it's the child's job and they acknowledge it's their job to take it from the counter and put it in their book bag. And then they, they get to school and they find their lunch isn't there and they came home and they said, well, you didn't remind me. Uh, even though that's not something you do, it's, it's a way that we sort of verbalize avoiding responsibility for our actions and our role, which is age appropriate and contextually important. Um, but kids, kids often sort of find ways to create a situation or not see reality as it is, so that they're not responsible for what you're talking to them about. I have an especially creative nine-year-old at this.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  So I would say it is never about blame. And if you want children to take responsibility, it's a good idea to create a household that is no blame. You could call it a solutions, not blame. We're a family that looks for solutions, not blame. So I would start there as a premise. If it's about blame, why would any of us? I, listen, I would work as hard as I could to get out of blame if I felt like I was just getting blamed. But if it were a matter of I was empowered to find a solution, I'm, I'll take responsibility for anything because then I'm in control of making it better for myself for the future. Right? So the lunch on the counter, your nine year old or eight year old comes home and they say, I, I forgot my lunch, I didn't have my lunch.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  And you say, oh, I'm so sorry, hon. You must have been hungry. It's your fault. You didn't remind me. Wow. Wow. You think it's my fault? Notice you're just restating here. You think it's my fault because I didn't remind you. I made your lunch and I put it on the counter. And usually you take your lunch and you put it in your bag. But I didn't say anything about it, even though I never say anything about it. And usually you remember, but today you didn't remember. And it's my fault, huh? And your kid will probably look a little sheepish because you've just made clear what's saying. And say, yeah, it's your fault. You knew I was stressed out. You knew I was really stressed out getting everything ready to go today because of X, Y, Z. And you didn't remind me.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did know you were stressed out, honey. I knew it was a stressful day for you. And when it's stressful, it's really nice to have extra support. And, and I try to support you in any way I can. And I didn't give you the support of reminding you about your lunch. That's just a given that it's your job to get your lunch, even when you're under stress. I'm really sorry that you forgot it. I'm so sorry you went hungry. And now you're not trying to make them say uncle. You're not trying to make them admit that you're rushed. You're just, you're, you're saying, yeah, I am sorry that, that you, I do try to support you when you're under stress. I'm sorry you were under stress. I'm sorry it made you forget your lunch. It's hard when we're under stress to remember even things that are a routine for us.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  It can be hard to remember things that are, that, you know, to remember things that even, even that we would think we would remember. I'm so sorry that you didn't remember. I don't think it was my fault. And I hear how you wish you could blame someone else. Because it's hard to have been in that situation. You know what, sweetie? We're a solutions, not blame family, right? So I'm not blaming you. But it is your responsibility to take your lunch. So let's look for a solution that will help you next time. Your kid will probably say, I think the solution is for you to remind me. And you laugh at that point and say, I hear you. Wouldn't it be great? But you know what? You're capable of developing the skill of remembering your own lunch. I've seen you do it.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  I know you're capable of it. And I will support you to develop that. I'm not going to be your memory for you. Because for the rest of your life, I'm not going to be there for you. To be your memory for a small task like this. So what solution could we come up with? That would make it easier for you to remember your lunch in the morning? And then you go back to, you know, if they have a backpack that's packed? And they don't have a reminder on it? That says lunch? They won't necessarily remember. I mean, I don't know about you, but I had gone out of the house and forgotten something that I had to add at the last minute. That I was gonna bring. Like water from the fridge, because I didn't have anything on my backpack saying that I was gonna bring it, you know? And even though my briefcase was all packed, I didn't have that thing in it, right? That for some reason had to be added at the last minute.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  My phone charger, whatever, we've all done that. So just to say, you know, we've all done this. No blame, no shame, hon. We've all done this. What's a solution that you could use? To have a built in reminder for yourself that isn't your dad?

• 1:13:22Shane Parrish?

  I think that's great. Um, there's a whole bunch of questions I want to get through. So maybe we can switch to more rapid fire answers here. Because we had a lot of people sort of submit questions that I want to make sure I get a ton to get to. So, um, talk to me about what the role of nature in family is. You had mentioned this on another interview you did. Uh, the importance of sort of nature in terms of calming people down, in terms of. Um. Being outside and kids playing.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  There's growing, a growing body of research about the power of nature. When we are in green spaces, it calms us down and our immune systems work better. In fact, the immune system is about fifty percent more effective. When, when you spend two hours out in nature, your immune system is about fifty percent more effective. The, the number of T cells, killer cells, you have, it's like fifty percent more for, for several weeks afterwards.

• 1:14:20Shane Parrish?

  I did not know that.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  That's how important nature is, how effective it is. Isn't that amazing? So, so we know that children need to be in nature and adults need to be in nature. And we all need to be in nature more often than we are. It helps to see nature, even if you can't be in it. But it's, you know, seeing a screensaver of trees is a very minor positive blip in your system. Whereas being out in trees is a very big positive blip in your system. You know, driving past them will be a small positive blip, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, nature is really important. And the more families can build that into their lives. You know, it's easy for us to think our children have a need to be educated. I need to take them to do something that's educational.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  But actually, even more than that, we have a need to interact with the natural world. And children love it. You see a difference in their behavior.

• 1:15:12Shane Parrish?

  How do we prepare kids for step siblings?

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Ooh, okay. Well, step siblings implies a host of other issues. So it may mean that there is a stepparent about to happen, right? And, and there may be a new home about to happen at least half of the time. Uh, and then in addition, there might be step siblings. Or maybe there are new baby step siblings that are now arriving to a situation that's already got a stepparent in a second, a different home, a new home. So if it's a new baby coming, you prep kids much the way you would for any new baby. And there's an enormous amount of, uh, content on the AHA parenting website. My website is A H A parenting dot com. And there's a lot of content about prepping kids for the new baby, including prepping kids for a new step sibling.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  If you're merging two households and you're going to have step siblings who are the age of your children, or any age really, but they're not babies, then you need to be aware of your child's likely response to that, which is that your child will be worried about getting their own needs met, worried about fairness, whether children will be treated fairly, worried about whether their parent will still love them just as much, or will they lose their special place in their parents' eyes? So, setting up structures that will help address those fears will help your child to go into it easily. So, everything is fair game for discussion, we'll have regular family meetings. I could never love you more than I love you.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Here are the rules about discipline. For instance, you know, it's, you know, you're my kid, therefore I'm in charge of your guidance. You know, your, your stepmom, those are her kids. She's in charge of their guidance. You may think things are somewhat unfair sometimes because I'm more strict about screens. On the other hand, I don't punish and give timeouts the way she does. We're gonna have our own approach to discipline. We're gonna always try to talk about it and be as um, fair as we can, but I am the final uh, authority when it comes to you, and she's the final authority with that, whatever. So, I guess I'm saying that your child will have a lot of concerns as much as possible. Think about what those concerns might be, address them, but also build in, assume there's gonna be a rocky period of adjustment,

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  and build in ways to handle things as they come to the surface, so you don't, so your kid doesn't just have to shut down and go along with stuff and not express it.

• 1:17:38Shane Parrish?

  What's the most common thing you see go wrong when families sort of blend together?

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  Hmm, well, I have seen that, oh my goodness, it's so hard to, to make a blanket generalization here. I have seen that often, parents allow the other parent to do the disciplining for their child. They think that now that they're a family unit, that naturally, the new stepdad, or the new stepmom, since she's home more, let's say, um, that that parent is the disciplinarian for all the kids, or is, is equally allowed to be disciplinarian for your kids and theirs. I just think it's a mistake. I think that no one is going to be as, as appropriate.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  In their guidance of your child as you are, even your, even the child's other natural parent, you may feel is a less good parent than you are, often, we feel that way. When we look at our ex, right? But certainly, the new stepdad or mom on the scene, there are two reasons. One is they're not gonna be seeing the child the way you are. They don't know the child as well as you do. And they, they are not going to give the child the benefit of the doubt the way you will. They're, they don't necessarily have your child's best interests at heart on his evil level. It's that simple. In fact, I'm gonna say something really, um, big here, which is that, um, when a new man comes on the scene in a child's life,

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  a new man is now with their mother, their risk of being abused or in fact being killed in childhood goes up. Now, that's a huge thing to say, and it's not true in most instances, obvious. But it is an indicator that that new man is not necessarily going to be nurturing that child the way their dad would, right? Or their mom would. And i- it's, it's not his kid. And he's not invested in that kid the way you are. So I'm not saying, and obviously, no woman listening to this is going to be inviting a man into her life that she thinks would be bad for her child. I know that.

• 1:19:51Speaker 00

  I'm just saying that the, there is a kernel of truth there about that's not his kid. And so I have seen that go wrong many times. You said, what's the most common thing I see go wrong? And I've seen that go wrong in small ways that still turn out to be pretty significant for that child, which is that the, the stepdad has different expectations. He doesn't understand what's age appropriate for that child. And he's gets angry at the kids. And then there's this big bone of contention between the parents and the stepdad and the, and the mother are fighting all the time about the kids, which is bad for their relationship. And it's also bad for the children. So I've seen that happen many times. And I've seen the reverse also, where the stepmom ends up being the disciplinarian

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  and wants her home kept to a certain standard and when The dad's children visit every other week. She gets really frustrated with them. Right? It, it, I'm sorry to say it happens. And so the, that parent should not be the disciplinarian. The other thing is that very well-meaning stepparents end up in situations where they're disciplining and it erodes their relationship with the child. It's very hard to be a stepparent. The child does not come into this assuming you're a nice person who has their best interests at heart necessarily. They may resent you. They may be jealous of you getting the parent's attention. They may wish that their parents would get back together. They may, whatever. They, they won't necessarily be giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you can step out of the role of disciplinarian and connect with the child in a warmer manner,

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  you will build a relationship that will allow you to influence the child and to have a better, the child will be more willing to follow your guidance and behave better after that. But start with the relationship. Don't start with this discipline ever.

• 1:21:34Shane Parrish?

  I like that. It sounds like, um, parents should obviously have deep, meaningful conversations around sort of how they want to handle this stuff and what sort of expectations they have and how they'll, they'll find a way to surface their concerns as they merge households. Um, I want to switch gears to the next question, which is how important is an evening routine? And how do we go about building an evening routine for kids?

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  An evening routine, just like a morning routine, is very important because children like to know what to expect. It builds their security and then they act out less. And they also learn best practices for living. So they get used to doing things like brushing their teeth that otherwise they wouldn't have a natural inclination to do necessarily, or remembering their lunch in the morning if it's the morning routine. So it's important. I would say it also helps to build into the routine connection time because. We otherwise are always reinventing the wheel and trying to remember to connect with our child if it doesn't come naturally and we're always busy. So, building that into the routine strengthens the relationship. So, it's very important for that reason too.

• 1:22:41Speaker 00

  It gives us an opportunity to strengthen our relationship with our child. How do you come up with a routine? Well, you start with your bedtime. You know, when do you want your child to sleep? Well, what does that mean in terms of when you need to turn out the light? Well, what does that mean in terms of when you need to get your child into the bed? And what happens between getting into the bed and turning out the light? Maybe there's a story. Maybe you turn out the light and then there's a little bit of time where you snuggle with your kid or, you know, talk, you say prayers or you sing a little song or you talk about what they're grateful for that happened today and what they're looking forward to tomorrow. So, thinking about that and sort of actually, not sort of, actually mapping it out on paper allows you to back into when each thing has to happen.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Well, given all that, when do they have to be out of the bathtub and into their pajamas? Given all that, when do they have to get into the bathtub? What do they, are you gonna roughhouse with them a little bit first? If you get them laughing, it reduces their tension, they fall asleep more easily. We know it changes the body chemistry, but you wouldn't wanna do it after the bath because then they get riled up. So, you have to do it before the bath. Well, when do you have to finish dinner? Well, if you're gonna go through your family practice of you're all gonna clear and wash dishes together and that takes 15 minutes, working together and making it fun with a special song on while we do it and we bop around dancing while we do it. When does that mean we have to have dinner on the table? When do they have to start homework? You're basically, you're starting the evening routine the minute the afternoon starts in a sense.

• 1:24:07Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  So, coming up with that idea and that timetable and then you might have that in front of you, but you would sit down with your kids and say, "So, you need to be in bed with the lights off at X time. So, what are, what are the things you have to do by, from the time you come home from school to the time you get in bed?" Let them throw things into the list and then see what you can figure out about timing, but let them be part of that process so that they work with you on the schedule and they even, you know, come up with the chart that you post.

• 1:24:41Shane Parrish?

  Last question, promise. Oh, sort of last question, one more question after this, but how much sleep should kids be getting?

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  It depends how old they are. Um, there are, uh, for lack of a better word, charts online that give average sleep needs for different ages, but I would say the most important indicator is do they wake up on their own without an alarm clock and without you waking them up? If they don't, they're not getting enough sleep. Now, there are kids who wake up as soon as the light shines in their room and they're in a cranky mood. I would say those kids are light sensitive. They need blackout curtains. But when kids don't have noise waking them up and they don't have light waking them up and they are waking up happy at, you know, seven AM or whenever they need to get up for school, then that's great. They're

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  getting enough sleep. Most kids don't. We take it for granted. We have to use alarm clocks. By the way, if you have to use an alarm clock, you're not getting enough sleep. Bad news, I know, but it's really true. So, not good for you and not good for your kid.

• 1:25:47Shane Parrish?

  Totally agree. I haven't had an alarm clock since I had kids. Um, where can people find out more about you, Laura? This has been a great conversation.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  So I have a website, AHA, like those Aha moments, AhaParenting.com. So AHAParenting.com. It's about a thousand pages or more, uh, and it's for parents of all age kids. So they can peruse that website to their heart's content. I also offer a newsletter. Uh, if you get it once a week, it's just a compilation of articles for that week. If you get it three times a week, you'll also get my blog posts for that week. So two of those three will be the blog posts. That's free. You can just sign up on any page of the website. I also have books. You can look on Amazon or on my website for those books. I have three books out. One's, one is the kinds of things we've talked about today. One is on siblings and sibling relationship. And the third one is exercises that you can do

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  to have better self-regulation, to build a better relationship and more connection with your child, and to learn how to coach your child, to do emotion coaching and to set better limits, boundaries in a loving way. So that's the workbook, the third book.

• 1:26:55Shane Parrish?

  Awesome. Well, we might have to do a part two on this for siblings. Uh, I know we, we kind of ran out of time here today, but, uh, we'll link to the books in the show notes and really, uh, I would highly recommend Laura's newsletter. It's one of the ones that, uh, I sign up for and read to help me sort of become a better parent. So I really appreciate you taking the time.

• 1:27:14Speaker 00

  My pleasure. It was great to talk to you. Those were wonderful questions.

• 1:27:21Shane Parrish?

  Hey guys, this is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com/podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G.com/podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for listening.