Caller: “How Do I Stop Cheating on My Girlfriends?”

🔥 Microhabits for a better marriage. Download the Together app. On today’s episode, we hear about: A man wondering how to stop cheating on his girlfriends A mom concerned about her son’s fascination with sex A woman struggling to decide if she should leave her dream job Next Steps: 📋 Get on the same page before the week begins. Download Dr. John Delony’s free weekly marriage check-in. 💬 Get the Free Conflict Game Plan by Dr. John Delony ❤️Join Dr. John Delony at Money & Marriage Getaway 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:00 I’m Addicted to Cheating 00:20:10 I Discovered My Son’s Secret Messages 00:42:18 Is Blowing Up My Career the Right Choice? Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Working knives for working people—go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  I first cheated on a partner back in high school. I cheated on her early in the relationship. And I guess from that point forward, I'm not really sure why I felt such a strong inclination towards cheating on her. But I felt like I could do it and get away with it. So I just continued to do it.

• 0:22Dr. John Delony?

  You wanna stop? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. Man, I'm glad that you are with us. Talking about your marriages, your mental and emotional health, your kids, whatever you got going on in your life. Pull up a seat and we're gonna figure out what's the next right step for you to take in reclaiming ownership of your life. Who you wanna be and where you wanna be, wherever it is you're going. Click the link in the show notes if you wanna be on the show, if you wanna sit down and have a phone call with me. Love to have you on and it's an honor that you're here. Let's go out to Baton Rouge, Baton Rouge, Louisiana and talk to Jacob. What's up Jacob?

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Hey, how's it going?

• 1:07Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, man. How are you?

• 1:09Speaker 00

  I'm good. It's an honor to speak to you. I'm very nervous.

• 1:12Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I echo your nervousness because I get nervous too because I'm still trying to figure out how to do this thing. But I am glad that you called, man. Appreciate your trust.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  Of course. Thank you.

• 1:22Dr. John Delony?

  What's up?

• 1:23Speaker 00

  So I want to know how I can stop cheating on my partners and become a more loyal partner and just overall, you know, a better person as a result of that.

• 1:33Dr. John Delony?

  What has led you in your life to believe you are powerless to cheat on somebody?

• 1:41Speaker 00

  That's a good question. I would say that I first cheated on a partner back in high school, my junior year of high school. I cheated on her early in the relationship. And I guess from that point forward, I just continued to do so. I'm not really sure why I felt such a strong inclination towards cheating on her. But I felt like I could do it and get away with it. So I just continued to do it.

• 2:08Dr. John Delony?

  How old are you now?

• 2:10Speaker 00

  I'm now 23.

• 2:11Dr. John Delony?

  And you're still cheating on romantic partners?

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:15Dr. John Delony?

  Do you wanna stop?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:18Dr. John Delony?

  Why?

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Um, it's just not the kind of person I wanna be. You know, one day I wanna be married with a, with a family and be a good husband. And also I live with a lot of guilt for the people that I've hurt by cheating. Um, and a lot of regret for it.

• 2:37Dr. John Delony?

  So if you were to, like cheating is a big, heavy thing, right? And it's a violation of your values. Like you said, it hurts people, it hurts you. It's just, it's, it's a thing. But if we back out of it, this might sound like a strange question, but what problem does cheating solve in your life? It is working for you in some way. And it's easy to look back on a thing that we're doing that leaves such a trail of devastation in its wake, right? But coming at the other angle, what does it do for you? Cause it's doing something for you because you wouldn't keep doing it if, if, if, if it wasn't solving a problem for you.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  I have a couple of theories, not, not things I consciously think about when I'm cheating, but just looking back in retrospect and trying to evaluate why I may have acted certain ways. I think that it could be to try to give me validation.

• 3:27Dr. John Delony?

  You're, you already, you already have that. You already have that if you're dating somebody.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Right. Um, and, but the thing is that when I'm cheating with someone, it's almost like I'm a lot more interested in the idea that someone, and not just someone, obviously, because I do already have a partner, but that multiple people want to, you know, engage in physical activities with me.

• 3:54Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Um, and knowing that gives me some sort of validation that, you know, just one partner wanting me, I guess, isn't enough. Knowing that a lot of people want me feels more satisfying.

• 4:05Dr. John Delony?

  What about the other side of the, what I would call the anti-validation? When then this person, you, you leave this rendezvous or this hookup and you look yourself in the mirror and you know, like that was despicable. And now I have to decide whether I'm gonna be a liar too and not tell my partner what's going on, or I'm gonna tell them and destroy them.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that over the course of my life, I've gotten pretty good at kind of pushing down feelings of regret and things like that. And I've gotten pretty good at just focusing on the moment, but using that in a bad way. So I don't really have to look into the future at, you know, how this is going to hurt the other person or look back at what a bad person I'm being.

• 4:59Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Um, I, I can just kind of clear it off my mind and just focus on, okay, what's, what's next to that.

• 5:04Dr. John Delony?

  But it sounds like you have moments of profound regret or like, let's just put this on the table. Um, you don't necessarily want a monogamous relationship. You like the feelings, you like the pursuit, you like the multiple partners at the same time, but you want to want that fantasy of being this ironclad guy that somebody else could anchor into, but you don't really want that.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  I, I think that I do. And, and maybe you're right, but it seems like it's almost kind of an impossible question to answer and be certain that my answer is correct.

• 5:44Dr. John Delony?

  Well, here's the thing, like stop cheating.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:48Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean? I guess it's not, there's zero rocket science here. If you're dating somebody, delete every other person in your phone. Get rid of social media. And when you feel the feelings of wanting to scroll and pursue or hit a DM, catch yourself in that moment and say out loud, I'm not this guy. Right? It's, it's not hard. The, the reason I'm asking these questions is like getting underneath it is, do you even, do you even wanna stop?

• 6:21Speaker 00

  I, I do, but also I guess my real question is, why do I feel such a strong desire to go and get external validation from other people? Cause I feel like if I could address that, then I wouldn't feel such a strong inclination towards cheating.

• 6:38Dr. John Delony?

  You're, you're putting the cart before the horse. We, we can do that. We can dig into that. My guess is most of the time, not always, but most of the time, there's a, either a pattern of how you received affection, how you were able to prove that you were loved. It could have been you only got a hug when you got straight A's or you got hit in the mouth when you got a B, right? You learned, I need somebody else that, or you said, hey, this hurt my feelings and your mom or dad or both said, no, it didn't. That wasn't even that big a deal. And you learned, oh, I can't trust me. I've got to seek outside voices to tell me how I feel. I'm okay. I'm worth being loved. Maybe, maybe not. But right now you got the cart before the horse. And that is you've told yourself this story.

• 7:23Dr. John Delony?

  And unfortunately, brother, like I have to own it on behalf of the global mental health community. We've told everybody, being well, being whole, being a person of character is getting all the right thoughts in the right order first. And that's false. The path to character, the path to virtue is action. So the, the path for you is not, I need to figure out what, the path for you, brother is, I will never cheat again, ever. And then when those impulses come up, which they will, I'm gonna begin to address this new person that I am in that way, in a curious compassionate way, not feeling like I am some sort of slave to this internal master.

• 8:08Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 8:12Dr. John Delony?

  There's, I promise you, if you were to tell me today, like, oh, this happened, this happened, this happened, and in 15 minutes you and I solve the origin story of you needing external validation, that would do nothing to your impulse to wanna cheat. In fact, it would probably do the opposite because now you got a reason why, which can be twisted to make it okay. I can't help it. This happened to me. And so therefore I get a pass on all my future hurting other people, all my future violations of my own core values. I get a pass because this thing happened to me once or a whole bunch of times this happened to me.

• 8:57Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes sense. And in my, not my most recent relationship where I cheated a lot, but in the previous relationship, I, I didn't cheat on my partner at all until the very, very end of the relationship. I met a coworker who I really liked and I never actually cheated in any physical way. I just enjoyed the company of this coworker and then broke up with that girlfriend to pursue something with the coworker. And I guess I, and in that relationship, I had just completely stopped using social media or deleted any girls who I thought would provide any sort of temptation off of my social media. Um, and that worked until I had, you know, a real in-person temptation.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  And I know that, you know, when I'm married, I'll have, you know, attractive coworkers or attractive friends or whatever. And I don't want that temptation to ever become too strong to where I can use as a way to avoid fixing real problems in my actual relationship.

• 9:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, brother, your math is sideways, man. Like the algorithm you've cranked out in your head on how relationships work and how the future might impact your future decisions, bro is sideways. Like the, the nonchalance with which you talk about how you've hurt these other people is troubling to me. And maybe it's because we're, we're talking, you're nervous and you're just like trying to keep a steady heartbeat. But there's a sociopathic way you're, like there's a, there's a tenor in your voice that is very flatlined. You know what I'm saying?

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I will say that I've always been, I've always kind of tried to be a monotone person and never sound too emotional when I'm talking.

• 10:46Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Um, so I think that's just a habit that I've kind of built up over time.

• 10:49Dr. John Delony?

  If you are destroying the lives of other people and you are, you look in the mirror and you're disgusted by the man you are and how you treat others, there should be an emotional response.

• 11:05Dr. John Delony?

  If you don't feel that, and this is just a math problem for you. I used to want to be an engineer, but now I want to be a computer programmer. Then I'm gonna, I'm gonna plead with you to stay out of romantic relationships for a while, especially ones that a person thinks you're their person and you're their only person. You get what I'm saying?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so what do you think I should do in the meantime to try to?

• 11:38Dr. John Delony?

  I think you need a full 100% detox from romantic relationships.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:45Dr. John Delony?

  I think you have to practice being in the presence of somebody who makes you feel good, which is humanity, being around someone who's pretty or beautiful or that you're attracted to and not instantly thinking, I need to conquer her so that I can feel good about myself. You've got to practice being bored at 10 o'clock at night and not scrolling. You've got to practice telling the truth and keeping your word to you first.

• 12:15Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:17Dr. John Delony?

  But I mean, like, and you know, like you called, because I'm pretty honest with folks, right? And I'm being honest from a loving place, man. I'm not sitting here in judgment of you. I'm just kind of casting the vision in front of you of what you're telling me.

• 12:34Dr. John Delony?

  Like, this is human 101 stuff.

• 12:38Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 12:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:42Dr. John Delony?

  And so you're talking about, in many ways, creating a moral compass from scratch. And I'm gonna tell you right now, you can't do that by yourself. You're gonna have to go sit with a professional and say, hey, like, let's walk through this.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  I started seeing a therapist last week.

• 12:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, but here's the thing. You're a master manipulator, and this isn't a judgment accusation. This is a fact. You know this, I know this. You have to commit to telling the truth about how you don't feel, about how you use people, and how you engage with them. Got it?

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 13:15Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Otherwise, you're wasting their time, you're wasting your money. There's no reason to go. Other than to give you an excuse of another failed attempt at trying to be different, which validates that this is who I am. Okay?

• 13:29Dr. John Delony?

  But you're gonna need some intense walking with. I did too. Okay, so it's not a judgment statement. It's just, just me loving you well. Okay? The second part of it is, you have to put on your mirror in your apartment, on your car, on your phone.

• 13:48Dr. John Delony?

  I'm a man of integrity.

• 13:51Dr. John Delony?

  If you want to be more specific, and you don't have a lot of visitors at your house, because this would be weird, like, I'm a man who will never cheat. I'm a man who never lies.

• 14:00Dr. John Delony?

  I'm a man who's worth being loved for me.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  I can do that.

• 14:09Dr. John Delony?

  And then you have to reverse engineer a life that lives into that.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:17Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm talking about when the, when the door-to-door bug zapper salesman comes over and is like, hey, we want to spray your yard, instead of saying, I already have a guy, or, man, I just can't right now. You have to look him in the eye and say, I wouldn't, I don't want your services right now. Thank you, though. I appreciate you coming by, and close the door. You have to tell the truth, always.

• 14:36Dr. John Delony?

  Hey, man, you want to come over tonight? I can't. No, I can. Not tonight. I'm gonna stay in tonight. I want to stay in tonight. I'm gonna start owning truth. And what you'll do, hopefully, is begin to teach your body. It thinks it needs external validation like oxygen to survive. And what you will teach it is, only through lived experience, I'm driving the car that is my life, and I get to choose who I am, and we, me and body here, we're gonna be okay.

• 15:07Dr. John Delony?

  We can feel other people's disappointment in us and get up and go again the next day and go get them.

• 15:14Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:17Dr. John Delony?

  I have this weird sense in my guts, you're not gonna do this.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  No, I, I really, really, I really, really do want to. And I'm going to be seeing a therapist every week. And, and like you said earlier, I know it doesn't sound like it in my voice, but I am very much racked with guilt over the way that I have acted.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  And in a way, I feel kind of guilty that I can't, that I know that my guilt is not as painful as the pain that I put other people through.

• 15:49Dr. John Delony?

  And that may be a protective measure. Because you're seeing a mental health professional, bring this up to them. Don't do this on your own. But if you were seeing me, if I was sitting with you, just you and I were having nachos, I would suggest, write each one of the women you cheated on a letter. And put yourself in that position when you saw their face when you told them.

• 16:12Dr. John Delony?

  And write the letter of apology. Don't send it, but begin to acknowledge the, what you put other people through. Write yourself a letter after every one of those interactions.

• 16:26Dr. John Delony?

  This is the man, I know it feels like we're falling apart. I know it feels like we're never gonna get over this. We're never gonna be able to treat somebody with dignity and honor. But I'm making the changes at 23. Future you is gonna put an end to this.

• 16:40Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 16:45Dr. John Delony?

  Make a choice today. I'm done cheating. I'm gonna be a person of integrity, even if that means I have nobody, even if that means I feel lonely, even if that means this big feeling in my chest is screaming at me, told you you're not lovable, I know, but I don't do that. I don't do that.

• 17:02Dr. John Delony?

  Game on, man. Day one.

• 17:05Dr. John Delony?

  We come back. A woman asks how to help her 14-year-old son navigate his fixation with sex and girls. We'll be right back.

• 17:15Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we've got less than 90 days until the full weight of the holiday season is upon us. And you know how it goes. Every year, as the calendar starts filling up, you tell yourself, I'm not gonna let the holiday madness get to me this year. I'm gonna slow down and actually enjoy the holidays. I'm gonna actually be present, not just physically in whatever room I happen to find myself in. And then you're racing around to dinners, parties, kids' activities. It's madness, and you're drained, and the holidays become a burden. I've done the same thing. But here's one thing I've learned. One of the best ways you can slow down and work on being present long before the holiday season hits is staying

• 17:56Dr. John Delony?

  grounded in your spiritual life. Hallow is the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world, and I use it almost every day of my life for that very reason, to ground myself in my spiritual life, in my spiritual practices. Some mornings, it's five minutes on the drive to work. Some nights, it's a sleep prayer before bed. Whatever the moment is, Hallow helps me practice presence. Before the holidays takes everything from us and makes us all super busy, I'm gonna stay committed, and I'm gonna invite you to stay committed, to practice being present with Hallow. You can try Hallow for free for 90 days at hallow.com/deloney. Start now, and Hallow will be free for you to try through the holiday season. That's

• 18:41Dr. John Delony?

  hallow.com/deloney.

• 18:45Dr. John Delony?

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• 19:29Dr. John Delony?

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• 20:06Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we're back. Like, subscribe, share, all the goods. Let's go out to Burlington Coat Factory, Vermont, and talk to Melissa. Hey, Melissa, what's up?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Hey, it's such an honor to be able to speak with you today.

• 20:19Dr. John Delony?

  That's an honor to talk to you. Thanks for calling. What's going on?

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm calling today because I would love your advice on how I can best support my 14-year-old son, who he seems to be having this growing obsession with sex and girls. And yeah, I just need some guidance as a mother.

• 20:43Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, if you're watching this, you have to notice that you'll notice that my face just smiled. It did it automatically. I didn't even mean to. Okay, Melissa?

• 20:52Dr. John Delony?

  My impulse is to say, uh, yeah, cuz he's a 14-year-old boy, but um, you wouldn't be calling if this was normal. So tell me, paint me a picture of what's going on.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so

• 21:05Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, hold on, let me stop. I want to retract. I should not have used the word "normal" here, okay? That was a bad word on my part. I don't want to already cast a vision that your son somehow abnormal. Okay, that was false, fake, that was wrong on my part. I apologize. Alright, so, but you wouldn't be calling if there wasn't something that was concerning you beyond the 14-year-old boy going through puberty and suddenly, suddenly he's like, "Ooh", right? What, yeah, so paint me that picture.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  So you can tell me if this is normal or not, and you can tell me if this is a me problem, right? So, over the last six months, there's just been a series of events that have just, you know, my red flag is going up in my brain.

• 21:46Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  It started when I discovered that he had been looking up porn on my computer.

• 21:53Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  I had, generally in the house, we don't allow the kids access to the internet, but I'd let him use my computer for homework. Once I discovered it, we put the kibosh on that. And I'm like, you know, that's my bad for allowing him to, to, you know, get access to that. And then during this summer, this is the more worrisome pattern that I'm seeing is that he is kind of hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend and breaking up with them after they aren't doing things with him physically that he wants them to be doing.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that

• 22:35Dr. John Delony?

  Like what?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  You know, like, the first girlfriend, he started getting attention from another girl that he met, and this new girl was sending him some provocative texts. Was definitely a little bit more kind of confident and sexual in general, being, you know, she's 13. But, um, he then broke up with his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said, "Well, was it because I wouldn't make out with you?" And he's, he knew better, and he said, "No, no, it's not because of that." But from what I could tell, as soon as this new girl came on the scene and kind of offered him more physical experiences potentially, he was all about that.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  And then with this new girl, after a couple of weeks, she retracted some of that. And she said, and good for her, she's like, "Agno, I talked about doing all this stuff with you, but I'm actually not comfortable with it." He broke up with her less than a week later, and then immediately moved on to another girl. And so, maybe this is normal, maybe he's just figuring this out, but with all of the kind of cultural garbage out there, it makes me concerned that he's objectifying these young girls, and he isn't,

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I don't know, that he's starting down a path, and I would just love to make sure that he's not gonna continue down that path, if that makes sense.

• 24:04Dr. John Delony?

  So, I'm in a quandary here, okay?

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:07Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm gonna be honest as I can. I'm trying to do a better job on this show of telling what's going on in my head, instead of just saying things, cuz it can sound abrupt, okay? What's going on in my head is, is I have a concerned mom on the phone with me. And that, to me, is one of the most sacred interactions I can have. A mom or a dad saying, "I'm worried about my kid."

• 24:31Dr. John Delony?

  And on the other side, I have a mom, and I'm assuming, is dad around? Where's dad in all this?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, we are separated, but we co-parent. I'm like, you probably don't hear this a lot. We are amazing co-parents.

• 24:44Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:46Dr. John Delony?

  What's dad's response been to this?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  He is not aware of it. He does not have the insight into the son's text messages like I do.

• 24:54Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start challenging you hard. Is that cool? We're still friends? Promise?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yes, please, please do.

• 25:02Dr. John Delony?

  Number one story you've made up, "We're amazing co-parents," you are not. Because you're not sharing this really powerful, important thing that your son desperately needs a grown man to sit down with him.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:14Dr. John Delony?

  So, the fantasy you've created is we're amazing co-parents, but you've got this huge secret about his son that you're keeping from him.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Okay, I do have a little bit of context to add there, but if you wanna continue

• 25:26Dr. John Delony?

  Go for it, go for it. Cuz, cuz here's the other side of it. Dad may cheer him on. I know those men. Who are like, "Oh, hell, yeah, my 14-year-old boy", right? That may be the case, and if that's the case, then y'all have, y'all, like this, "We're amazing co-parents," is, it takes on a different tenor. Amazing co-parents when they're young is, are you gonna pick him up? Or do we always keep our agreements? Are we, are drop-offs pleasant? As you get older, we start getting into really rich value territory.

• 25:54Dr. John Delony?

  Do we share the same values cuz we're trying to raise the same kind of human?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Totally, and I think that we are good about a lot of that.

• 26:03Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  And my ex-husband really struggles with difficult conversations with anybody in his life.

• 26:12Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  And, um, that is a big reason why we aren't married anymore. So sex especially is a hot-button topic. If I were to share this with him, he would stick his head in the sand and not say anything to his son about it.

• 26:24Dr. John Delony?

  I

• 26:24Speaker 02

  So I haven't.

• 26:25Dr. John Delony?

  Absolutely am heartbroken for your son over that, but

• 26:28Speaker 02

  He has a wonderful stepfather, who I have spoken to about this.

• 26:34Dr. John Delony?

  Does he, does he trust that man?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:39Dr. John Delony?

  Can they go out to breakfast and not have the sex talk?

• 26:44Dr. John Delony?

  Because that, your 14-year-old will be in wide-eyed fight-or-flight, or head down, just, "I gotta weather this storm," and then get on about his life. And, cuz making out is awesome, right? Like, "I'll weather this, this, this lecture, here it comes." Or can, will he commit to, "We're gonna go to breakfast every day till you grad," I mean, every week till you graduate. That's a new rhythm in our house.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  That is something that I want so, so much.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  And, and, um, that, that relationship is not there yet. I think, I think it can be. I think I need to have a more direct conversation with my husband about

• 27:29Dr. John Delony?

  Potentially. Can you, can you step in that gap in that season?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Will he listen to his mother? At 14, no, does he wanna talk to this stuff about me, you know, talk about this stuff with me?

• 27:41Dr. John Delony?

  So that's gonna be the second part here, and

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:45Dr. John Delony?

  You use the phrase, "I'm worried about the, the path he's on." And given the context of the world he lives in, you put him in a car, handed him the keys, taught him how to drive, and now you're worried that he's driving. What do I mean, what do I mean by that? A 14-year-old shouldn't be out dating. 14-year-old shouldn't have a phone that he's texting other 14-year-old girls with in any sort of capacity where any sort of pictures are being exchanged.

• 28:16Dr. John Delony?

  A 14-year-old

• 28:17Speaker 02

  I will say that

• 28:18Dr. John Delony?

  Go ahead.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Sorry. The phone is completely locked down, and it has this whole operating system on it. It is not just a regular cellphone. I just, I just wanna throw that out there.

• 28:29Dr. John Delony?

  That's, that's, it's great, except when this other provocative 13-year-old who's over her skis is sending pictures.

• 28:39Dr. John Delony?

  That's deleted and blocked, kid. Sorry.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  No, she has not sent pictures. It was all verbal.

• 28:46Dr. John Delony?

  But you get what I'm saying. You get what I'm saying?

• 28:48Speaker 02

  I, I do, I do.

• 28:50Dr. John Delony?

  And none of this is comfortable. Yes, it's developmentally appropriate for a 14-year-old boy to wanna see naked people. 100%.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 28:57Dr. John Delony?

  There's a totally developmentally appropriate for a 14-year-old boy to be curious about how sex work. "Oh, my gosh, she doesn't have any clothes on, that's amazing," or "He doesn't have any clothes on, that's amazing." Like, yes, all of that is developmentally appropriate. It makes sense in, in, and by the way, that will still be interesting when he's 90, right? So, at 14, what he desperately needs is parents who will throw up hurdle after hurdle after hurdle to protect him from himself.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:28Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And that means risking from the age of 14 to 18, "I love you enough for you to not like me."

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:37Dr. John Delony?

  And if you're gonna go on a date, here's what this looks like. And beyond just the mechanics of dating and phone usage, we just talk about sex in the house.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:47Dr. John Delony?

  It's a, it's a, it's not a, it's an awesome, awesome thing. And it is more awesome in the right context, in the right, in the right place and time.

• 30:00Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean?

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, totally, totally.

• 30:04Dr. John Delony?

  Just like an incredible glass of wine, just like a,

• 30:08Dr. John Delony?

  a fistfight is awesome if you're in MMA training and you've got a good training partner. It's not a good idea in a bar in the middle of the night, right? Like, so, like, teaching, time, and place, and context, and, yes, like, you're not gonna wanna come in here, right? Like, letting him know, "This is a normal, awesome thing, and,

• 30:27Dr. John Delony?

  this isn't how we treat young women."

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  I think it's that last part that I'm, I'm not sure how to, other than, than living my life to, you know, reflect that value. Like, I, I'm not sure how to talk to him about that, or if he would listen to me as his very uncool mother.

• 30:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, yes. He will watch you way more than he listens to you.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:00Dr. John Delony?

  And what I mean by that is, he'll see the affection you have for your, for your husband, for his stepdad. He'll see the things, kids are incredibly absorbent on what are no-fly zones in this house and what are. And if they know something is off limits, we can't talk, we can't ask questions, like you said, dad will bury his head, he'll turn beet red, they will learn quickly, this is something we don't talk about. But that, what that also, especially now, for me, growing up, that meant you have to go find somebody's dad who has a brother who's got a Playboy somewhere. That world's over. It's everywhere.

• 31:44Dr. John Delony?

  And so if, if, if I am not, if I haven't created a world where any question can be asked, where there's, we laugh, we have fun, we show respect, like, there is no such thing as an off-limits conversation. If I don't have that, they'll get a really quick handle on what is, like, an off-limits conversation, and they're gonna go find it somewhere else. And I'll be damned if my kids are gonna find it first, they'll find it, because that's life, if they're gonna find it first from somebody else. You got what I'm saying?

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I, I do, and conceptually, that is something I've always wanted to give him, is, is a household where he can come to me with any question, big or small, any problem, big or small, like, no, nothing's off limits. And I find him being very, very private. And so I wonder if my, my, my execution of my, um, intentions has just not been as effective as, as maybe they could have been.

• 32:44Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna throw a few things out, okay?

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:48Dr. John Delony?

  And make a mental checklist of these. You don't have to even answer me, okay? How often, since he was eight, nine, or 10, till 14, have you, if you're, if he's in bed and you're laying by him in bed, and y'all are just chit-chatting, and it's, he's got a lamp on, or it's dark, have you said, "What is sex like for middle schoolers?" Or, "Are boys and girls already, like, are people already making out?" What is making, what is, like, what does the word "making out" mean to you? Because it used to mean French kissing, and now it means, like, oral sex. Like, what is, what does making out mean? And, like, you begin, you wanna create a world where he understands he can ask questions, then you model it by, "I'm gonna ask you questions. I'm gonna trust that you are the

• 33:33Dr. John Delony?

  self-proclaimed expert of your world, and I'd love to be invited into it." "No, Mom, no, no." Well, man, that's crazy, because when I was a kid, sheesh, right?

• 33:46Dr. John Delony?

  And then he starts to get a picture, a 360-degree picture of not this boring mom, but this grown woman, who's also was in middle school, who may have also felt pressured to be somebody she wasn't in order to win the affection of, of a, of a teenage boy. And you begin to open those doors for him, and he begins to see there's, there's, there's human beings beside, behind this pursuit. There's something powerful, regardless of how you approach the world, that you sit down with your 14-year-old and say, "Your life's been real hard." And dads are supposed to talk about sex, dads are supposed to talk about girls, dads are

• 34:28Dr. John Delony?

  supposed to talk about dating and relationships with their sons, and you only get to see your dad a couple of times a week, or a couple of times a month, or however y'all have got it arranged. And so, letting him know, "I should have been having these conversations with you, and I haven't, I'm sorry."

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:44Dr. John Delony?

  But, and they don't launch into a big, "So the man has testicle," don't do, don't do the film strip that we all had to watch, right?

• 34:51Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 34:54Dr. John Delony?

  Um, but there is a, and you can tell, "World's about to change for you, brother."

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:00Dr. John Delony?

  And, like, just know, "And by the way, we're having breakfast every Tuesday till you graduate, and I will make that a priority. And what you will send, the message you will send to him is way bigger than what y'all are gonna talk about. It will be, 'Mom always moved things around and did a thing for me.'" That's an anchor point that I can say, "Hey, Mom, guess what? I like a girl."

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think that that will be, I've heard you give that, that suggestion so many times, and I have always found, you know, I have three children, and I work full-time, and I've always like, "Oh, well..."

• 35:36Dr. John Delony?

  It's impossible, it's impossible.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  But I'm going to, like, it, but it, it needs to happen, and I would move mountains for my children, so, you know?

• 35:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. It, it, it, it, or a walk after dinner, after the other two are asleep, he's 14, is he the oldest?

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:52Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, you have to put your phone away and go for a walk with your mom. We do this every night.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:57Dr. John Delony?

  And by the way, he'll roll his eyes, he'll get mad, "Mom, I have homework, I'm in the middle of a game," doesn't matter, we do this. And he will tell that story at your funeral. "I went on a walk every night with my mom for four years."

• 36:13Dr. John Delony?

  Every Tuesday, we went to this crappy diner, and we both, like, had a race to see who got diarrhea first, but we did it every time for, for five years, right?

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:24Dr. John Delony?

  That's the anchor point.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  That's the kind of mom I wanna be. Yeah, yeah, I wanna do that for him.

• 36:28Dr. John Delony?

  And, and you called this out, this is so important, this can't happen in a vacuum. This is you and your new husband getting in a room and saying, "Okay, the way we've done things changes now." And you look at him and say, "You got breakfast Tuesdays and Wednesdays, because that's when I take the kids out, one-on-one."

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:45Dr. John Delony?

  And you've-

• 36:45Speaker 02

  It's gonna have to be a-

• 36:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  A team, a team effort.

• 36:48Dr. John Delony?

  Absolutely. And you've got laundry now on this day and this day, I don't know, y'all, things divided up, I'm just making stuff up, but, you know what I mean? Like, this is the new ecosystem, because this thing is now, we, we don't fit morning breakfast into our existing life. Our existing life now works around one-on-one time with these kids that are growing up so fast we can't see straight. That's the new, that becomes the new priority, so how do we loop this thing? How do we create a world where this is priority? And hopefully, you married a new guy that's like, "Game on." And hopefully, he's a man who says, "I wanna be a part of this," and that's gonna be a slow, slow integration of your, and your 14-year-old may never get there with him. Like, I'm not

• 37:31Dr. John Delony?

  talking about this strange, like, that may never happen. Or he may feel such an allegiance to his birth, there's always this weird, "If I, if I give stepdad this information or have this kind of relationship, somehow it's disloyal to my birth father, even though the birth father's not there for this conversation." So, all I'd say is, it's messy, it's messy, it's messy. Um, yes, it is developmentally appropriate for 14-year-old boys to wanna see naked girls. It is developmentally appropriate for boys to be curious about what body parts feel like, what they look like, um, what making out feels like, yes, all that's appropriate. For them to want that, it is not wise, um, for the unfettered access. That's why they have parents, um, to protect them from those, from those impulses. And to help over time

• 38:16Dr. John Delony?

  contextualize those impulses to the right, to the right relationships, the right circumstances, the right environment. So, thanks for the call. You're a good mom, Melissa, you're a good, good mom. Um, and now it's time to go 15 layers deeper, and, um, love this boy well. Game on. I'd love to hear how these conversations go, if you wanna holler back. That'd be really fascinating to, to hear how they're going. I wish you guys the best. We come back, a woman asks if she should change careers before it's too late. We'll be right back.

• 38:50Dr. John Delony?

  Here's something most people don't think about. You wake up a little stiff, a little tired, and you figure, "That's just how sleep is nowadays," but the truth is, you've gotten so used to the mattress you've been sleeping on for the last 10, or 15, or 20 years, that you don't even realize how bad your mattress actually is. And it may be while you're not sleeping well. And I gotta say this, too, old mattresses get gross. Now is the time to finally get a new mattress and switch to Helix. Sleeping on a Helix mattress will help you sleep better, and better sleep affects everything else, including your attitude, your emotional regulation, and your health. With more than 20 different mattress models,

• 39:34Dr. John Delony?

  Helix has a mattress designed just for you. Whether you're a side sleeper, a back sleeper, whether you sleep hot, or you and your partner have different needs, you need Helix. Get online and take their sleep quiz. It takes like, two minutes, and Helix will match you with a mattress built around how you actually sleep. I sleep on a Helix mattress every night. It's the mattress I have in every room of my house, and it's the mattress I recommend to all of my friends and all of my family. You don't know what you've been putting up with when it comes to your mattress until you finally make the switch and wake up feeling rested and restored. Go to helixsleep.com/deloney to save 20% off site-wide this

• 40:14Dr. John Delony?

  month. That's helix, H-E-L-I-X, helixsleep.com/deloney, or click the link in the description. With Helix, better sleep starts right now.

• 40:26Dr. John Delony?

  All right. Hey, check this out. If you are on an Apple device, go right now over to the the App Store and pick up the Together app for you and your spouse. You can do it in one-player mode. I know there's jillions of people, but my spouse would never pick this app up. I get that. You can do it by yourself, or you can bring them on. You don't charge any more extra money. You can both do it for the same price. It's like less than six bucks a month. It's like one cup of coffee. That's it a month. And it will give you all sorts of tools for coming together. And by the way, if you've checked it out before and you're like, ah, we have added so much stuff to it. We've added a conflict framework. We've added a communication framework for, basically, starting to put in scripts.

• 41:10Dr. John Delony?

  If this happens, what do I say? How do I introduce this conversation? All sorts of things that help you lean in and become the person you want to be in your marriage, knowing I said the thing. I had the conversation and I treated my partner with dignity, with respect. And also, I knew the next right step to take. And I've got a group of some of the most amazing developers on the planet actively putting tons of stuff in there, having customer interviews. And by the way, the customer interviews are coming back. They made me weep. They have made me like cheer. Folks who have come back from infidelity, folks who are trying to find their way back together after somebody cheated on each other, after financial infidelity, after just the roommate drift.

• 41:54Dr. John Delony?

  We've just got two kids, three kids, four kids, nine kids, two jobs, two dogs, and we're just roommates. How do we find our way back to each other? That's what the Together app is for. Micro habits for your marriage that will transform everything. Go check it out in the App Store. And Android folks, we are so close, so close. Hang in there with us and we'll unleash it hopefully sooner rather than later. Let's go to Greenville, South Carolina and talk to Sarah. What's up, Sarah?

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Dr. John, how are you?

• 42:23Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome. How are you?

• 42:25Speaker 03

  I'm good. It's so crazy to hear your voice on the phone after listening to you for years.

• 42:31Dr. John Delony?

  I'm glad you called, man. That's really cool. What's up?

• 42:34Speaker 03

  So I have spent four years in undergrad, a year on a certificate, and now several years in graduate school to become qualified for a particular job in a particular field. And now that I have that job in that field, I'm not sure that it's what I want to do at all. My question is, is this the best?

• 42:57Speaker 03

  I know, I know. Is it the best time to make a change because I'm so early in the game? Or is it the worst time to make a change because I'm so early in the game?

• 43:10Dr. John Delony?

  If it is something that is, you're finding is a violation of your values.

• 43:17Dr. John Delony?

  Meaning, like, I can't be a part of, I didn't realize this industry involved this or involved that. Or this is asking me to work like in this capacity and I don't, it's just not aligned with who I want to be in the world.

• 43:34Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm trying to think of, um, let's say you go get a finance degree and then you get a

• 43:41Dr. John Delony?

  Masters of Accountancy and then you go work to at a bank and you're a lender. And you have this deep-seated like belief that borrowing money isn't good for people. Like, stop doing that job. Give yourself, not immediately, you gotta pay your bills, but give yourself an exit ramp. Right? Because that's not long-term, that's not gonna work out. My concern for you is a challenge I ran in with almost every graduate student I worked with who went straight through. Is it's less about the job and it's this recognition, this is the rest of your life. You've been a student since you were four. And so if that's the case, I would tell you,

• 44:21Dr. John Delony?

  get as good as you possibly can at the thing you're doing, even if you quote-unquote, "aren't passionate about it" or whatever. And also look for adjacent skills that will, that will make you the person you want to be on the job market. You hear what I'm saying?

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do. Let's say hypothetically, it's a combination of both.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  And, um,

• 44:44Dr. John Delony?

  How comfortable are you speaking not in hypotheticals? Are you worried someone's gonna find out?

• 44:48Speaker 03

  Well, let's say hypothetically, it's government-related and it might be a temporary violation of values, but not indefinitely. And there's no way to tell how long or in what ways at this stage.

• 45:02Dr. John Delony?

  I don't do temporary violations of my values.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Good point.

• 45:07Dr. John Delony?

  Because that's a, that's a permanent mark on my character. That's who I am. Or, or at a meta level, I'm a guy who will bend my own values for a minute.

• 45:18Dr. John Delony?

  And I don't want to be that guy.

• 45:22Dr. John Delony?

  You hear what I'm saying?

• 45:24Speaker 03

  I do, I do.

• 45:25Dr. John Delony?

  And can we be honest? Unless it's a particular government job, government jobs will come and government jobs will go, right?

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm finding that's true also. Yes.

• 45:36Dr. John Delony?

  And so is there a possibility that you take the skill sets you have and you go work at a place that's aligned with who you want to be in the world? And then one day, if a position opens up, which it for sure will, you make your way back?

• 45:51Speaker 03

  That is a possibility. I'm hoping it's a probability. I think that I'm a little bit in the headspace of, I've, I've spent so much time on this. There are a lot of friends and family members and people in my circle who are invested and

• 46:08Dr. John Delony?

  They don't get a vote, sister. You gotta look you in the mirror. You know what I'm saying?

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Well, and if they've always gotten a vote, then it's time for them not to get a vote and that's

• 46:16Dr. John Delony?

  Do not stay in a job because your mom likes telling her friends at church, that's where you work.

• 46:23Dr. John Delony?

  You got it?

• 46:23Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah.

• 46:25Dr. John Delony?

  Do not stay in a job because your dad, you see him lean back and do that big smile he has when he's talking to his boys and he's like, "My daughter's a..." fill in the blank.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:36Dr. John Delony?

  They don't, that, like, my God, like, you're, you're, you're, you're melting yourself from the inside out. It violates who you want to be in the world, just to make, dude, I'm not doing that.

• 46:49Dr. John Delony?

  I'm also, I'll say, I'm also, unless they are saying, "I want you to do this thing." And that thing is illegal, that thing is immoral.

• 46:59Dr. John Delony?

  I, I am not a fan of big, like, audacious, "I quit." Have it, let the, let the boat get close to the dock before you jump off the dock. Your next boat that's gonna take you where you want to go. Get another job first, right?

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I see what you're saying and I agree. I think that, um,

• 47:22Speaker 03

  there's the question that I have come up against from the people that I have spoken to about it, and there are very few of them. But it's, it's a, why was this, like, in, in all of these years, you didn't have any sort of clue into that this wouldn't be what you actually wanted?

• 47:40Dr. John Delony?

  That's a stupid question. Stupid question, not even worthy of an answer. Yes.

• 47:46Dr. John Delony?

  I, a, a smart question is, did you not ever have coffee with somebody who actually did this job to find out what the job was about? Because that was dumb. And it's a failure on the education system for not putting you in, like, not in recruiting meetings where they're trying to convince you how great everything is, but where you go have coffee with. Like, one of the greatest things my dad ever did for me was when I told him I wanted to be an FBI agent. He took me to, to the head of,

• 48:16Dr. John Delony?

  basically, the chief psychologist for a giant metropolitan police department. And I got an hour with that guy at 20. And that guy said, "Hey, here's what grad school will look like. Here's the path. Here's the thing. Here's the challenges you're gonna up against." But I walked away saying, "That's not gonna be the job for me."

• 48:35Dr. John Delony?

  But otherwise, I would have gone full force. I would have probably gone to law school. I would have done everything I could to get that job. And I would have got there had I not sat down and had a cup of coffee with somebody who was generous enough to give me an hour of their time. And by the way, everyone on the planet, no one loves a question like, "Can I ask you about you?" Everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, I love talking about me," right? So, yes, if you didn't, if you didn't have that, that was dumb. And I won't blame you, 19-year-old or 20-year-old. I'll blame the people around you for not coaching you well. But it's a dumb question to look back and go, "How did you not know?" Because you don't know until you're there, right?

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you can blame me then, because I had multiple of those. There were, there were those all along the way. And I, I think those people, which is part of, part of what prompted my call, is that those people who put in recommendations for me and kind of stuck their necks out for me and helped elevate me into this position. Walking away from it feels disrespectful to them and to the people that were in this program with me and who I knew would kill to have the same opportunity. And there's a lot of, um, it's charged for some reason. I, I don't really know how to, I wouldn't know how to face them. I wouldn't know how to,

• 49:56Speaker 03

  how to answer to them. Um, I'm still trying to work it all out.

• 50:00Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to answer to you first.

• 50:04Dr. John Delony?

  And I've written a number of recommendation letters for some of the brightest folks that I readily expect I'll be working for someday that were students of mine. And if they came to me with resolve and said, I was on this path and I ran into this blocker. I ran into this ethical dilemma. I ran into this value violation. I took this path. I would say as an educator, as somebody who's a mentor, I did my job, which is know your true north over and above any stupid job.

• 50:37Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 50:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:39Dr. John Delony?

  And so I would cheer them on, even if like I made a phone, I made phone calls for you. You, yep.

• 50:46Dr. John Delony?

  Like, and I got in there behind the curtain and that was not for me.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  Exactly. Yes.

• 50:53Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm a grown up. If colleagues call me like, nice recommendation, Deloney, they already left. I got, that's the one on the chin for me. And that's also why, like honestly, um, I told more students, no, I can't write your, I don't know you that well. I didn't work with you in that capacity. You weren't one of my student leaders that I worked in with day in and day out and we built a thing together. Like, I don't know you that well. Um, you weren't one of my graduate students. And so I, I would say no a lot for that very reason. I want to be selective, but so let me, let me, let me ask you this. I, I'm still torn and coach me on this.

• 51:27Dr. John Delony?

  Is it just like growing up sucks?

• 51:31Dr. John Delony?

  Like, there's this like, oh, I do this every day and then die. Right? Is there, is there that part of it? Cause that's a real, I mean, I wish there was like, it's easy to be like, you need to grow up. No, there's a real death to childhood.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:46Dr. John Delony?

  Your childhood was prolonged because you went to grad school, right after undergrad, right after high school. So you drug it out as long as you could.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  I certainly did.

• 51:54Dr. John Delony?

  But there's a death to it. And now I gotta be somewhere every day at o'clock or seven o'clock or five o'clock, whatever. And I gotta wear this outfit. I got, especially if you're working for the government, I gotta do, I gotta speak how they speak. I gotta go to these trainings, get these, all that stuff. Um, I can't tell if it's that or if it is, you're there and politics is an absolute dumpster fire right now. And in that case, that rolls over every two years. I'm not going to do something that's against the law or whatever. A future administration's going to like, like hold me accountable for in court because I violated the law, the constitution. Um, but dude, I've worked for lots of places. I didn't agree with the boss, but I agreed with who we were trying to help.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. All of the above. I think that there's certainly, uh, there's truth to the fact, like I, of course, like this is the first time that I'm following this type of schedule and in this environment. And there's like, you know, it's different in practice than it always has been in theory. There is that. Um, but I feel, I feel like it's more the latter, which is I, I didn't exactly know what my work and what my contributions would be in service. I, I always just knew conceptually speaking. And now, now that I'm there and working every day hard, I am questioning what that work ethic and what my energy, like

• 53:23Speaker 03

  is the thing that it is, the end that it is serving really worthwhile? Or is it what I'm really aligned with? And you're right. It changes. It changes every two, every four, every six years. Um, but it's a very different, it's a, it's a different game. It's a different mentality than it was when I started all of this. And I'm, I'm uncertain. There's a lot of uncertainty.

• 53:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, totally. Um, and that's the word I'm hearing most common from my folks, my buddies in the services and, and, uh, federal organizations and state organizations, that word uncertainty, which I hate because a leader's job is to provide a foundation, not chaos. Right? I get that. Um, on the other side, can I, can I challenge you hard?

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:08Dr. John Delony?

  Two, two.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  I hope you would.

• 54:09Dr. John Delony?

  Two big challenges. Challenge number one, and this is going to sound disrespectful and unenlightened and blah, blah, blah. How old are you?

• 54:15Speaker 03

  25.

• 54:16Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 54:18Dr. John Delony?

  I, I haven't road tested this because I'm saying this for the first time in my life ever, right now. Okay. So if I say it and then YouTube commenters come back, they might be right. Okay. Or Kelly might tell me off the air. If you're 25, you're not at the contribution stage yet.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  That's fair. Yeah.

• 54:39Dr. John Delony?

  You're at the grinding, learning, um, doing over and over and over, learning the ropes.

• 54:48Dr. John Delony?

  And it's not to say that you won't provide contribution. That's not fair. But like, and it's not to say you're not providing, um, I'm trying to think, like if, if I hired a 25 year old producer for, or assistant producer for this show, right? They're not like, they're going to contribute. The show's going to get out and they're going to have a role to play in getting the show out. That's important. They're making that contribution. No question about it. But in terms of impacting how I talk to people, what I say, they got to put some time in before they're going to sit down and say, hey, Deloney, you shouldn't say that. Kelly's earned that. Right?

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 55:24Dr. John Delony?

  And even as like, as, as she's earned that as my friend and as someone who's been in this industry for a bunch of years, and as somebody who says, you might be clinically right, but I'm a mom and that didn't sound right to me. Right? And so she's like, that's what I'm saying when it comes to contribution. And so like, understanding like, what's my, why aren't, why aren't I not the leader? Like dude, you're 25. You're brand new. Hit that gas pedal and crank it. Right? And the contribution part will come over time when someone says, this woman is brilliant. She works harder than anybody here. She knows this craft, whatever the craft is, um, better than anybody. She's the person we want to

• 56:07Dr. John Delony?

  take, like help drive this roller coaster that we're all on. That's number one. Okay? Here's number two. And this is the, I'm, this is really unfair of me, but it was unfair when this was said to me. So I'm going to say it to you. Is that cool? I'm going to pass this unfairness on. Um, I want to be as vague as I can. I have a, several men in my life who I call like, who are, I'm different. I am the man I am because they invested in my life. Okay? And so it's, it's deeper than a mentor. It's a, it's a, it's a Yoda. It's a guide. And there's four or five men in my life who fall into that category. Okay?

• 56:45Dr. John Delony?

  A thing happened at a university that I was asked to do something that was wrong.

• 56:51Dr. John Delony?

  It violated my core sense of value.

• 56:54Dr. John Delony?

  And so I said, I will not do that thing. And to my current boss at the Times credit said, I understand that. I will do it and take that from you. Cause I, I honor that's, that is a violation of your values.

• 57:09Dr. John Delony?

  But the fact that that thing was still happening, didn't sit well with me.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 57:14Dr. John Delony?

  And so sitting down with this, with this, uh, I'm trying to think of a right word. We're sitting down with one of my Yodas. How about that?

• 57:24Dr. John Delony?

  I laid out the situation. Here's where I, I feel at conflict. Here's where, to their credit, they took this conflict from me because it was a violation of my core values. And they said, you're right and we'll, we'll own it.

• 57:36Dr. John Delony?

  But the fact that it's still happening doesn't sit well with me. And here's what this mentor of mine said, and I'm passing it on to you and I hope it haunts you for the rest of your life too. Right? Cause it haunted me bad.

• 57:49Dr. John Delony?

  He said,

• 57:51Dr. John Delony?

  John, you are free to go. What's happened wasn't right. What you're asked to do wasn't right. What's going to, what's going to happen even without you being a part of it isn't right. You're free to go. You're right.

• 58:04Dr. John Delony?

  And if everyone leaves,

• 58:09Dr. John Delony?

  the people you're trying to help will still be there.

• 58:14Dr. John Delony?

  And so there is something, and it goes against our current media ecosystem, especially social media, that sometimes the boldest thing to do is to hand in your letter of resignation. But sometimes the most gangster thing to do is to say, I'll, I will continue to stay here and love people well despite what's happening.

• 58:41Dr. John Delony?

  But that line he gave me of, "You can go, but the people you love and care about, they'll still be stuck here." And if everyone with a voice walks out. Right?

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:55Dr. John Delony?

  Now, I left. I left. Right? I left. But I have since stayed many a time because of that sentiment. I'm gonna take the X-

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Can I ask you a question about the first?

• 59:11Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  I want, um, I want to know what you think about the first. I, I agree entirely that I'm, I'm not only not in the contribution stage yet, I probably won't be for another five or so years, um, here specifically. My, where, where I feel, uh, not entirely clear is if I spend the next five years working to be a contributor here, then I can be by 2031, I can be contributing here. Or if I spend the next five years, if I shift and spend the next five years working on learning how to become a contributor somewhere else, by that same year, I could be doing something entirely different. Well-

• 59:53Dr. John Delony?

  True. Totally true.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  And, yeah.

• 59:55Dr. John Delony?

  Totally true.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  And that's where I get stuck again.

• 59:57Dr. John Delony?

  Um, yes to both counts. And so instead of feeling stuck, feel grateful that you got multiple paths.

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Dr. John Delony?

  And, and the question, I'll give you the exact scenario I used, okay? So I worked with students from 2000, from 2000, I was in education, all the way till, I think it was about 20, uh, 2011 or 12 is when I, suddenly everything shifted. When my students, there was almost an overnight switch, and Jonathan Haidt's written a lot about it. When my students went from, "Hey, I'm like so-and-so's struggling with drinking, so-and-so's struggling with, with drug challenges, so-and-so's struggling with, um, what they want to be when they grow up," to almost overnight, my whole job shifted to a number of students who were threatening suicide, worried about wanting to stay alive anymore. Right?

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:51Dr. John Delony?

  And I, I knew I need to get news. I, I don't have the skillset at this level to, I, I knew how to sit with hurting people, but I didn't have the skillset at the policy level, at the legal, like, I didn't, I needed, I gotta go learn. So I started going to, that's when I went and got back a second PhD in counseling. I need to learn this thing. Right?

• 1:01:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Dr. John Delony?

  And also, I was kinda getting tired of the university system. And so I began to ask myself, what are things I can do? What are some skills I can pick up along the way? So that if I ever do make a transition out of this world, what would that look like? And so here's a couple of things I did. I went to grad school and made it a really, not, not to get a degree, I wanted to become really good at helping hurting people, which is a different mindset than I want to get a degree. Right? The second thing I did is I made a commitment, I think in 2013, I'm gonna say yes to every single solid speaking request I get.

• 1:01:55Dr. John Delony?

  Every one of them. Seven people, 7,000 people. I'm gonna say yes to everything because I want to get good at this thing called communicating to a public audience. And I also, so I made several commitments like that. Never, there was no such thing as a podcast in 2013. Never knowing that my whole job would be this, oh, and the other one was, I worked with attorneys at the time at a law school. I want to become a really excellent, excellent writer. Had no idea that I was gonna take a job where I was a writer and a public speaker, like, right? So I want to get really good, good at a few set of skills that I thought would help me wherever I ended up.

• 1:02:39Dr. John Delony?

  And I ended up taking another job in higher ed. I loved it. It was rad. And so it was just a context shift, but I really got good at a few skills. So you have to ask yourself, is staying in this thing for five years, what skills could you pick up?

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:02:55Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And, or, I need to cut bait and go learn a whole new trade so that at 30, I'm good to go. I would suggest that who God knows what's, 30, five years from now, what the work world's gonna look like.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:03:11Dr. John Delony?

  You might need to be a farmer. Right? Who knows? Or there might be like robots flying around us, doing whatever we want, like, no, who knows? Right? But ask yourself, what is the skillset I want to have in five years? And can being here and deciding, I'm gonna be excellent at this job right now and learn how to do this craft well and the adjacent craft well, like writing and sitting with hurting people and for me in public speaking, like, who knows what doors are open later on because you have those skills and five and a half years of great service wherever you happen to be. So man, great conversation. You are awesome, Sarah. I wish I could give you an answer, but you have to look yourself in the mirror and say, "I'm making this call."

• 1:03:56Dr. John Delony?

  Every call you make, every decision you make is gonna have consequences and they're gonna have opportunities. When you make the call, put your eyes forward, don't look in the rearview mirror and say, "Okay, I owned this choice. I made it. It might cost me some relationships. It might be some drama. It might be, I'm gonna make a five-year commitment and it's gonna be hard, but I'm in it." And look forward to where you want to go. Thanks for the call, sister. You're awesome. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Every year, you tell yourself you're going to handle the holidays differently this year. Maybe stay calmer, feel more peace, but then it's the same old pattern. It shows up every year, the same family tension, the inability to keep healthy boundaries,

• 1:04:38Dr. John Delony?

  and you're cranky and tired and you find yourself snapping at people that you love and actually like being around. This year can be different. You still have time to get ahead of all of the holiday chaos and understand what's behind your reactions and come up with a plan. Therapy can help you build a healthier plan before you actually need it. When you're ready to have that conversation, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform with more than 30,000 licensed therapists, which means you can find one who can help you feel more peaceful this holiday season or whatever your needs and goals are. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the app so BetterHelp fits into your life, not the other way around.

• 1:05:20Dr. John Delony?

  And if your first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime for no extra cost. Listen, you know what's coming this holiday season. This year, you have time to stay calm ahead of all the holiday chaos by preparing differently. Go to betterhelp.com/deloney for 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash deloney, or click the link in the description. All right, we're back. Kelly, something awesome happened. What is it?

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  Yes, I have, um, an email from Andrea in Indianapolis. And if you have any cool crap that happened, not you personally, John, I don't want to hear about your cool crap. But anybody else out there has any cool things that happened, please let us know. Email it to us. We would appreciate it. All right. Andrea writes, "I've been actively working at building a community post-divorce in a new city where my, during my midlife years." Oh, blunder, that sounds really hard.

• 1:06:17Dr. John Delony?

  I, yeah, that checks every box.

• 1:06:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Dr. John Delony?

  This is terrible.

• 1:06:20Speaker 04

  New city, midlife, post-divorce. Well, just wait. "Making friends is as, in adulthood, is as challenging as they say. At work, I chatted with a contractor on one of our big projects and we realized we had a lot in common. We spontaneously decided to grab lunch together that same day. She included her spouse and a few of his coworkers. It ended up being a great time of meeting new people. We swapped numbers and plan to hang out again soon. I may not take up this new friend's offer of going on a blind date with her ex-husband."

• 1:06:53Dr. John Delony?

  Why? That's a hundred, that's a yes every time. How would you turn that down?

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  But at least we had a great lunch. If the blind date happens, I'll call into the show to update you on the assumed mayhem.

• 1:07:05Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, please.

• 1:07:06Speaker 04

  Thanks for providing, thanks for providing examples of ways we adults can connect with those around us, but also encouraging us to take the first step.

• 1:07:13Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome. Um, that's a, that's a big one. I'm just gonna meet with a, go have lunch with a stranger. Oh, and strangers bringing other strangers? Man, I would have felt it-

• 1:07:22Speaker 04

  And stranger wants you to date her ex-husband.

• 1:07:26Dr. John Delony?

  Everyone needs that friend in your life. Like, that's a friend that, it, you, listen, you may go to jail with that friend, but you're gonna have some stories with that friend. That's a good friend to have. And man, for the sake of this show, probably shouldn't date your new friend's ex.

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  But also for the sake of the show, please, could you?

• 1:07:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but for like just me and Kelly, just, please, please do this. Go on this date. That would be incredible. What are you gonna, what are you gonna talk about? Like, when they go to lunch and be like, "Did he try this move?" Like, what are you, like, ugh. And you're, what are you gonna look? You'll be like, "Yeah, actually he did." And she's like, "It's so great, but watch out." No! No! Ah!

• 1:08:05Speaker 04

  No, I don't like any of that.

• 1:08:07Dr. John Delony?

  But I kinda do. It's kinda awesome. But no, don't do that. But do it. Do it.