486 - Take These From Me

On today’s episode, Karen covers United Airlines Flight 232 and Georgia tells the story of World War II hero dog Smoky. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up because it's almost impossible.

• 0:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.

• 0:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magathah Christie, and so much more.

• 0:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.

• 0:29Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 0:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.

• 0:38Karen Kilgariff?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom. Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series, Phony. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 1:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:25Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna do this thing.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna do this thing despite all the things.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Despite all the reasons not to, and there are now hundreds.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Hundreds and hundreds. I mean, it just keeps getting hundred-er.

• 1:41Karen Kilgariff?

  We're doing it anyway.

• 1:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep thinking about a video I saw on TikTok. A woman was pulled over by four ICE agents, and we can go ahead and put that in quotes because now they've realized that a lot of them are not real ICE agents. There was four men standing around and a woman, and it's like in a parking lot of a car wash-looking thing, and this person in a white car just pulls in real quick. The woman runs over, she jumps in the backseat, and they drive away. And they basically... Save this woman from being kidnapped. And it is

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 2:15Karen Kilgariff?

  The kind of shit that these smaller communities and neighborhoods all around Los Angeles are starting to do. They're organized, they're communicating, they're getting out to their people. It's really incredible and it's so on my mind all the time.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I'm so fucking proud of our city and like

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  everyone showing up and giving and it's just, it's just like all you can do because you feel powerless. It's impossible not to feel powerless.

• 2:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I think the thing they underestimated is that basically everyone has a family member in some way, shape or form, however you want to define that.

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That could be affected by

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  just random kidnappings of we decided you don't belong here

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  because of how you look or what your last name might be. So you're gonna go and the rest of Los Angeles is like, no, you're fucking not.

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 3:03Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're not. What a time to live in.

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 3:07Karen Kilgariff?

  On our social media, you can go and look and see we posted nonprofits to donate to, ways you can act, tips on if you see things happening, if you're living in this area or if it's happening in your area, because now it's happening in lots of places.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It definitely is. So.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I know. That's the vibe, but also how do you not talk about it?

• 3:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  We've gone past the pale once again.

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  How are we just living this? Didn't we do this in 2016 when we started this podcast?

• 3:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't believe, I wonder what we would have said if it's like, someone had told us like, it's gonna be the same and worse, you know?

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's going to be the worst in the way that like the quote unquote overreacting people said it was going to and everyone else is like,

• 3:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:51Karen Kilgariff?

  calm down. You don't, and that's a lot of that, you know, you get a lot of that internet troll bot bullshit where it's like, that's not even how, and it's like,

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not how it works.

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  it's not happening to you.

• 4:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And I don't want to be a martyr. You and I are two white ladies with means and opportunities. So it's not affecting us the way it is other people. So I don't want to act like that, but.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Talking about it is not acting like that.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not saying it's happening to us.

• 4:15Georgia Hardstark?

  We're just pointing it out and we're aware of it.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And fucking, let's all do something.

• 4:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's all do individual galvanized community shit.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So that we all stand up and say, which is what everyone did at the No Kings protest.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a true crime related suggestion or what's it called when you suggest something?

• 4:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Recommendation.

• 4:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 4:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You're welcome.

• 4:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's a book. It's a memoir that I love. It's so murderino. It's so good. However, halfway through over the weekend, I had to hand it to Vince and say, take this away from me. Like, my anxiety is so, it's like, oh, so I like, I want to recommend it because it's great with that caveat.

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that, that please remember that part of the quote unquote enjoyment when you are a consumer of true crime is that you're spiking your cortisol. You're getting your nervous system worked up for your own reasons. You get to do that if you want to.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 5:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And you also get to dip out of it when you want to.

• 5:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Dip out when you need to have a hot dog and watch Detroiters.

• 5:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I just, there's a clip that's going around from Detroiters, one of my favorites, where Tim Robertson is yelling at the lady who, she goes, hey, don't use that language. She says something because there's a little kid next door and he goes, tell your husband to back off. And then he leans down and she's like, don't do it. That's my son and don't whatever. And he leans down, starts yelling at him and the kid just slaps him across the face. It's like one of the funniest.

• 5:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so absurd.

• 5:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Things. It's so great.

• 5:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, it takes place in reality, except everything is absurd, which is just amazing.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Delightful, delightful.

• 5:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So the book is called Working Stiff and it's a memoir of a medical examiner.

• 6:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see it?

• 6:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I've heard of this book, but I've never had the guts to read it.

• 6:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So it's literally the guts. You need guts because they talk about guts. And it's by this amazing Dr. Judy Melanick, M.D., who worked as a medical examiner doing autopsies in NYC, in Manhattan. And she started in like the year 2000. And so the first half of the book is just like the experience of autopsies and unexplained deaths and how, it's just like really fascinating stuff that I think people like me are interested in. Like if you read Mary Roach's Stiff.

• 6:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like that. But then the second half, it's the year 2000 or so in Manhattan.

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Guess what happens? And guess what she has to be the medical examiner for?

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  For just straight up 9/11.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So the, so the tagline is two years, 262 bodies, and the making of a medical examiner.

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know, it's this awesome woman, Judy Melanick. So I highly recommend it, and I highly recommend a beta blocker.

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you truly have to just know what you're going into. And it's like the story around nine 11, people's individual stories. I mean, what's more fascinating, but also the most stressful. And then at a time like this, where everybody feels very vulnerable, worried, constantly exposed. It's like, yeah, watch the content choices.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, between the news and reading that, I was like, put it down for a minute. Spend some time with Vince. Like, you gotta.

• 7:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Be in the world.

• 7:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, be in the world. So I handed it to him and I'm like, I don't want you to never give this back to me, but please take it right now. It's like the same thing when you're eating like box of Oreos, you're like, take these from me.

• 7:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause I can't control myself.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And when I attack you like a rabid raccoon to get them back, fight me. I'm just asking you to be in this relationship.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like fight me to a point, you know?

• 7:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And then take me out to dinner.

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I did that. I went into the real world and I went up for Nora's graduation party.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Yay.

• 8:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was lovely. And it was like, I got to see a bunch of my cousins and my family. And it was just a hang at my Aunt Jean's house. And it was really lovely. And it was real fast. I just had to go and come back, kind of.

• 8:21Georgia Hardstark?

  In your Hyundai Aionix 5?

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  In my, that's how deep the advertising is going is we're just.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Was not paid.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Seating it. No, that was a freebie.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I need to turn my air conditioning on. I'm having a.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Hot flush. I was on my drive back, positive that the seat heater was on in my car, checked it literally six times. And I was like, no.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 8:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Middle aged.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, someday I'll talk about my lose weight quick scam that I did last week. I lost three pounds overnight by getting a simple hysterectomy.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, boom. Oh, my God.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Sound like a flat.

• 9:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You are true Fitzbo inspiration. Or what are they called? Finspo?

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Finspo, yeah. Follow me for more advice.

• 9:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia, how was it?

• 9:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Not bad. So I want to talk about it because it wasn't bad. And I don't know, I know one person who's had it.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And I, I know a couple.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, I mean, it's interesting. It's really interesting.

• 9:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Get thin, quit, lose three pounds in two days.

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Overnight, man.

• 9:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Major surgery.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Get some great drugs, eat a lot of Uncrustables, like boom.

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Were you scared?

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I was terrified.

• 9:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Was it your first surgery?

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it's also weird to be like, I turned 45 and then the same week. So it just like felt like an old lady thing.

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's also weird to put a period at the end of, are you ever gonna have a baby one day? And it's like, it's not your acute decision anymore and you take a stance. It's no.

• 9:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So, or biologically at least, you know?

• 9:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, completely. That's an adjustment.

• 9:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So it's interesting.

• 10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a big adjustment.

• 10:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Karen Kilgariff?

  What if this whole time, it was just your, you know, uterus that was, or whatever the actual part is, that's causing all the problems and now you're just like.

• 10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Pain, I mean.

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You can sleep.

• 10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we're gonna talk about it in our next memoir, so.

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Called Don't Get Murdered and Stay Sexy.

• 10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gold. Hysterectomy time with Karen and Georgia.

• 10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hysterectomy, hysterectomy.

• 10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll pitch it out. We'll figure it out before the book comes out, guys. We promise.

• 10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wait, can I read you a fun email?

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  The subject line is, my grandma drove an ambulance in World War II. Which is connected to the Rochambeau story that I did, which was the bonus.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Again, sorry, but Hyundai, Hyundai sponsored.

• 10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We get really excited when people like us.

• 10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We, we like it when people believe in us. Who doesn't?

• 10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And so this email goes, hi friends, let me preface this by saying that what my grandmother did is very different and far less dangerous than the Rochambeaus. So I'm not trying to say it's the same thing, just trying to highlight the ways in which women's support is frequently unspoken. My grandmother was a teenager on Long Island, New York during World War II, but wanted to do her part. When planes carrying wounded soldiers from Europe arrived at the airfield on Long Island, my grandmother drove ambulances to take the soldiers from the airfield to the hospital.

• 11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. As a teenager?

• 11:21Karen Kilgariff?

  As a teenager. And then they say, not dangerous, but still an essential service. My grandmother Barbara, called Bobby by her friends, just turned 98 this month.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And her memory's pretty bad. So is mine. Let's not be judgmental. So this is my reminder to ask your grandparents for their stories.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy and do what you can, Abby.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Abby, what a perfect letter for this tough opening.

• 11:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, right, to get us back up on the, on level ground. Bobby, well, we're not friends with her. Barbara, happy birthday. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your bravery. It is brave to give service in any way, shape or form. So thank you for that.

• 12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Do what you can. I love it.

• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And sorry for all the swearing. I'm sure Bobby's pissed about it.

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Those, I like those girls, but the swear word girls.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she just pulls a Kleenex out of her sweater sleeve.

• 12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So should we do some Exactly Right corner stuff?

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 12:20Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network called Exactly Right, if you can believe it. Here's some highlights.

• 12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  This week over on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul head to 1931 England, where a Hayfield fire leads to this discovery of a young college student's body and a legendary investigator steps in. Is it Sherlock Holmes? No, he's not real. Stop it.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And then over on Bananas, fucking Kristen Schaal. Love her. I mean, she joins Kurt and Scotty to talk about how scientists taught monkeys to use money and the monkeys immediately turned to lives of crime.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So legendary. You can now watch this episode on our YouTube page at youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. It's the first Bananas podcast video that they're doing.

• 13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Will there be more? Be nice to them and maybe they will make more.

• 13:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so glad. All of those faces are beautiful faces that you're going to want to see.

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Kristen Schaal is on every single TV show I watch.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's incredible.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I just think about it all the time where I'm just like, she's just nailing it left, right and center.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And on Dear Movies, I Love You, Millie and Casey dive into the 90s camp movies and the 1995 classic Heavyweights.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  A classic, truly. Also, we recently announced our new podcast, Trust Me, which is about cults, extreme belief and the abuse of power, has officially joined us here at the Exactly Right Network. So to celebrate, we are going to re-release some fan favorite episodes of theirs every Wednesday, leading up to their network premiere on July 30.

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  This is huge for us. We're so excited about this. This week's favorite episode of Trust Me features Hoyt Richards, who's a former supermodel who was recruited into the Eternal Values cult, and how Fabio was involved in his recovery. Yes, that Fabio.

• 14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Bird in the face on a roller coaster, Fabio.

• 14:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's trust me. Please follow wherever you listen to podcasts. It's like really helpful to them and to us, and we appreciate it.

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, support that new show. Also, speaking of cults, hey, you can join our fan cult. We now offer ad-free episodes of this show, My Favorite Murder, and weekly bonus audio and video. Plus, you can get access to our Discord, which is what all the kids love to hang out on and talk on.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Check it out at fancult.supercast.com.

• 14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff, so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch,

• 15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series, Phony, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.

• 15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they I've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 15:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 16:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 16:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 16:09Speaker 02

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• 16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 16:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I go first this week, or you?

• 16:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's you.

• 16:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's me.

• 16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I can tell now who goes first just based on what kind of story I have, you know?

• 16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you're welcome.

• 16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, Molly.

• 16:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Our producer, Molly Smith.

• 16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna get comfy.

• 16:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, please do. You have heard me talk about this story before it was just long ago. The reason I know about it is from the television show I Survived.

• 17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But a listener named Alana sent this story into us because it's her hometown. And so, Maren did all her research and wrote this up for us, so I get to retell it to you now. It begins on July 19th, 1989, and United Flight 232 out of Denver, Colorado is headed for Chicago.

• 17:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Oh, you know what? Good point. If you are about to fly.

• 17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you on a plane? People listen to this on plane.

• 17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're on the plane, please press stop. If you are in the security line, go ahead and take those air butts.

• 17:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Go home.

• 17:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you're fine because I talk about it, Maren does some nice research in the end about how rare anything like this is.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But this is one of those stories that will bum you out eternally if you don't shepherd it into your brain correctly.

• 17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like that book, Take a Beta Blocker.

• 17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Careful, careful, careful. So, there are 296 people on board this plane, including passengers and crew. One of them is a 29-year-old man named Jerry Schimmel. Jerry is a deputy commissioner of the now-defunct Continental Basketball Association, or the CBA, and he sent it to Chicago for the league's draft. Maren notes, "The CBA was essentially the minor leagues for men's professional basketball in the US."

• 18:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Good to know.

• 18:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So you can put that into your basketball scrapbook. Jerry was originally booked on an earlier flight. He got bumped off that flight, and he was rebooked on Flight 232, which takes off around 1 o'clock local time.

• 18:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you do the thing where whenever you get bumped, it's like, either the one I didn't take or the one I'm gonna take is the one that's gonna crash? I hope it's, I don't hope it's the one I didn't take. I mean, you know what I mean?

• 18:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I think our brains are wired to do like sliding doors. Okay, what does this mean for my future blank, blank, blank?

• 18:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Makes sense of things, okay.

• 18:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I also had a procedure done recently, and right before I went under, I was kind of waiting out, out there, you know, I was just sitting there waiting for them to take me in, and someone opened a door and there was just this waft of like, kind of summertime hay smell. And I was like, oh, I'm definitely gonna die. I'm gonna die on the table.

• 19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? Because there's hay in the surgery room?

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Just because it felt like very, oh, this is what my childhood smelled like out in the country in Petaluma, which is like, why am I smelling this right now?

• 19:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The memories are popping up in those neurons because they're dying.

• 19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because I'm being so vain by getting plastic surgery, essentially, where I'm like, I'm dying on this table today.

• 19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I know what you mean. It's like, if I get, because I've had stuff done, I've never been put under, but like, yeah, you're like, no one's gonna feel bad for me.

• 19:46Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no empathy.

• 19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  For the lady was like, can you tighten my neck, please?

• 19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's, okay, sorry.

• 19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Everybody.

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna get the real, you're gonna get the real info here on My Favorite Murder.

• 19:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, we gotta say it. There's only one chance to say it, and it's right now. That's how we've lived our lives. Okay, so Jerry Schimmel takes his seat and he begins to unwind on this, what's supposed to be a very easy two-hour flight to Chicago. This is a DC-10 aircraft, which is sometimes called a trijet because it has three engines, two on either side of the plane under the wings, and then one in the back on the tail. DC-10s are no longer used in commercial flying, FYI. So this particular DC-10 has made nearly 17,000 successful flights over its 18-year lifetime. And the pilot that's flying it today is just as experienced.

• 20:41Karen Kilgariff?

  57-year-old Captain Al Haynes has more than 30 years of flying under his belt.

• 20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 20:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is very just workaday, very normal, here we go, it's a commute, two-hour commute flight. About an hour into this flight, the plane's cruising along at 37,000 feet in the air over northwest Iowa. Jerry's just been served lunch, which is a basket of chicken fingers, coleslaw, and, as you mentioned earlier, Oreo cookies.

• 21:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, how classy. 1989, coming in hot.

• 21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, the snack of the late 80s.

• 21:16Karen Kilgariff?

  But then Jerry and everyone else in the cabin hears a sudden deafening boom rip through the DC-10. The plane and everyone on it starts violently shaking. This probably lasts around five to six seconds, but of course, to everyone on the plane, it feels like an eternity. And like everyone else on board, Jerry is immediately gripped by pure terror. He assumes it's a terrorist bomb that was hidden in the cargo hold. And he will later describe the chaotic scene around him, saying, quote, "I heard a lot of screaming. There were plates and dishes and silverware being tossed around because of the drop, and people on their feet, including flight attendants, lost their balance."

• 21:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 21:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's not just shaking, but then the plane itself drops.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oui.

• 22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Then Jerry realizes he might be about to die.

• 22:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Again, stop this podcast right now if you're just chilling on a plane, thinking that you've, you're, you're gonna do it all. So these are the very first moments in what will soon be considered one of the worst air disasters in US history.

• 22:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And one of commercial aviation's most extraordinary stories of skill, teamwork, and heroism. This is the story of United Airlines Flight 232.

• 22:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know this one, but I'm assuming they survived and huzzah. That's really great.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So this, there was a special episode of I Survived that aired in 2009, which I was talking about earlier, and that's one of the sources Maren used. She also used a 2021 Medium article by Kira Dempsey entitled Fields of Fortune, The Crash of United Airlines Flight 232. And there was a 2017 Popular Mechanics article written by Lawrence Gonzalez entitled The Crash of United Airlines Flight 232. The rest of the sources are in our show notes. And that episode of I Survived, normally they do three different people, three different crimes. This is like a special episode where all the people on it are people who survived this crash.

• 23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So we're mid-flight. We just heard this explosion and after five seconds, the plane finally stopped shaking. So there's eight flight attendants on this flight and the lead flight attendant is a woman named Jan Brown. And here's something Jan will later say about this moment of the explosion. Quote, "All eyes are on flight attendants when something happens to see how we're reacting so the passengers know how to react themselves."

• 23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. I'm always doing that. She seems cool. She cool? She's cool.

• 23:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, they deal with this all the time.

• 23:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is kind of like, there are people in life like that too.

• 23:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 23:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's just like, the kind of people are just like, it's fine. That's completely my sister's friend Adrienne. It's just like, you know, this is, they, this happens sometimes when the blah, blah, blah. And it's like,

• 23:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 23:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Just give me anything and I will be on that level.

• 23:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. But if so-and-so's freaking out, then there's a problem. If dad's freaking out, then.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. Then it's impossible not to.

• 24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, okay.

• 24:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So here's Jan's quote, "All eyes are on flight attendants when something happens to see how we are reacting so the passengers know how to react themselves. I always had a poker face like there's absolutely nothing wrong because priority is to maintain calm of the passengers. I just went back to picking up trays as if nothing happened." Jan Brown.

• 24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 24:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So meanwhile, in the cockpit, Captain Al Haynes, his 48-year-old copilot, Bill Records, and 51-year-old flight engineer Dudley Jevorak are still trying to process what just happened when they feel the DC-10 start to tip toward the right like it's about to roll over. If that happens, the plane will almost certainly spiral down to the earth and crash. You can't let a plane go any one direction too far.

• 24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And I say that as an aeronautical engineer. So copilot Bill Records instinctively grabs the yoke, which is the plane's steering wheel. So yoke is steering wheel and throttle is gas pedal. Bill Records grabs the yoke and he pulls hard to the left to basically balance out that right tilt. At the same time, Captain Hayes is realizing what's going on. It has nothing to do with the bomb. This is not an act of terrorism. Basically, there's been a major equipment malfunction and he can only guess what it could be. Much later, they'll learn that something called the fan blade, which does not seem like it should be on a plane. It seems like it should be on like the fan over your stove when things are smoky.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:38Karen Kilgariff?

  But they're on planes and this one broke off at the back of the plane.

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 25:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So what Captain Hayes does know now is that the engine in the tail of the plane has failed. So they're down one engine.

• 25:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, that's not ideal, but the DC-10's two remaining engines are fully capable of picking up the slack.

• 25:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 25:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the issue with the yoke that is a real problem, obviously.

• 26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So flight engineer Dudley radios to the nearest air traffic controller to let them know what's happened while Captain Haynes goes down his emergency checklist of what to do following sudden engine failure. And this is where a bad but manageable situation turns catastrophic. Because the DC-10 is uncontrollably banking to the right and threatening to roll over, suddenly the yoke stops working. So copilot records can't level out the plane. This is not something anyone's trained for, but instinctively, records abandons the yoke and pushes the throttle for the left side engine. And this sudden boost of power on the left side counteracts the tilt to the right. So he can't steer it back.

• 26:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So he basically gases it up over here.

• 26:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Double time on this side, yeah.

• 26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Which is, he just did it like, okay, maybe this will work. So nothing is responding on the plane on any of the inputs or commands on Captain Haynes' emergency checklist. Not good. Then, as Dudley watches the plane's gauges, he sees the ones that monitor the hydraulic system drop to zero. Just all of a sudden, all those needles go down. So as you can guess, the hydraulic system on a plane is extremely important. It powers a bunch of the controls that allow the pilot to adjust the plane's direction and altitude, that lower the landing gear, operate the brakes, like all the vital things. So it turns out that that explosion that happened sent hot metal shards. So it's like the fan blade breaks.

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Hot metal shards from the broken fan blade like are shot through the back of the plane and they rip through the aircraft's hydraulic lines. So it takes about a minute or two for those, the fluid to leak out of those hydraulic lines. And once that happens, the whole system goes down. So the yoke doesn't work and all the gauges drop to zero. And basically, losing a plane's hydraulic system is beyond a worst case scenario. The cockpit crew, who are very, very experienced pilots and crew members, have never trained for it because no one has ever trained for it. Flying a DC-10 with no hydraulic system is not thought to be survivable.

• 28:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Haynes will later say, quote, "If you do not have hydraulics, you absolutely have no control. You might as well just take the control column and throw it out the window." A billion to one worthy odds that this would happen.

• 28:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so here's what's weird or fateful. An off-duty United pilot named Captain Denny Fitch happens to also be a passenger on this flight. Like everyone else on board, he knows something's up. So he basically goes up and asks if he can go into the cockpit. Because it turns out Captain Fitch is an expert on flying DC-10s. He actually is a pilot who trains other pilots on how to fly a DC-10. So he goes up, he offers his help and normally rank and title dominate the very regimented hierarchical field of aviation. Obviously cockpits, they don't just take people who come up and are like, hey, how about I get in here and give you my two cents?

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But in this moment, Captain Haynes and his crew welcome the stranger's help without hesitation. They put their egos aside and they focus on the emergency at hand. Because and they describe it in the I Survived episode. Essentially, they, I think they wrapped a belt around the broken yoke so that they keep that tipping wing up. And they're just doing it fully by physical force. And they're however, probably 30,000 feet in the air. So now with the controls no longer an option to use, this crew decides their best chance of survival is the one thing they do still have, which is the plane's remaining engine power. So the throttles are being used to keep the plane level.

• 29:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're going to be used to maneuver the DC-10 as best they can. So this is the most simplistic explainer that Maren wrote for me, which is when the crew fires the throttles, the two engines that are left get a power boost, causing the front of the plane to lift slightly, right? So like you're taking off. When they let off the throttles, the plane's nose dips downward and then begins a descent. When they fire the throttle on one side engine, then it turns the plane in the opposite direction and vice versa. So basically, because the plane is still tilting to the right, if they want to go right, they just stop pulling it as much to the left. So they basically are using the gas pedal

• 30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  as a big steering wheel because there's no steering wheel.

• 30:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So they just improvised this new way of steering. It's never been done before. As far as anyone knows, it's extremely risky because not gassing the engines enough could result in a nosedive. And once they start to go down, the plane could flip over itself.

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're basically just doing everything they can to keep the nose level. Captain Fitch and co-pilot records are focusing on the throttles while Captain Haines and Engineer Dudley are frantically making calls to get guidance from someone on the ground. But no one, not United's maintenance team, their emergency response center, or the plane's manufacturers know what to do or what to tell these men.

• 31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The harsh reality is that this uncontrollable DC-10 is going to end up on the ground one way or the other. So Captain Haines and his crew are fighting like hell to control that landing so that the hundreds of people on board have a chance of getting out alive.

• 31:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's now four minutes after the blast and the captain calls head flight attendant Jan Brown into the cockpit and he tells her to prepare the passengers for a crash landing. Jan will later say, quote, "It was just hanging in the air that this was the worst possible crisis. I could feel it. It just hit me full force when I opened the door. I remember distinctly thinking, we're at 37,000 feet and the possibility is we could go straight down. It was pure terror."

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like that's it.

• 32:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But Jan maintains her composure and her poker face as she exits the cockpit and she walks down the aisle to go inform her team that that's the situation they're in. And as she does this, Captain Haines comes over the PA system and he tells all the passengers, quote, "I'm not going to kid anybody. This is going to be bad. We need to prepare for a crash landing."

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  The fucking pilot says those words. They don't say that shit.

• 32:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't do that. Oh, this is, this is not a, like, an April Fool's joke that they pull every year. This is...

• 32:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not their style.

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  They're very serious about this shit. I'm not going to kid anybody.

• 32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Actually, can you kid me, please?

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Could you? I'm fine with delusion. I'm fine with it. With that, Jan and the other flight attendants kick into gear. They go around and they urge every passenger to remain calm and they teach them all how to get into what they call a bracing position to get ready to do that when the pilot instructs them to do so. And so a bracing position is you folding your upper body as far forward as you can, like you're going to put your head between your knees essentially, and you grab your ankles. And that's like your best survival position in this situation.

• 33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is about as bad as it can be, but it does get worse because United has been running a promotion where kids' plane tickets cost a penny.

• 33:39Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 33:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's lots of children on this flight.

• 33:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Including four infants, what they call lap infants, which means they don't have assigned seats because their parents are holding them because they're so small.

• 33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So as the safety protocol of that time dictates, Jan Brown must now instruct those parents to put their babies on the floor during this emergency landing.

• 34:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  She later says, quote, "I thought to myself, Jan, I can't believe you're telling parents to put their most prized possession on the floor."

• 34:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Karen Kilgariff?

  When Jan talks about this moment in their episode of I Survived, it is the most heartbreaking thing. It is so scary and it is what protocol dictated at the time.

• 34:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It was just her job to tell them this is your best chance of having your baby survive.

• 34:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's just impossible sounding.

• 34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So meanwhile, up in the cockpit with all the DC-10s down controls and busted tail engine. I love when Marin uses a word like busted. It's just fucking busted. Everything's still being controlled by the throttles. Captain Haines, Captain Fitch, and the two other crew members are constantly communicating with each other and working together to keep the plane level and basically moving forward. At this point, Flight 232 is now somewhere in the sky over Sioux City, Iowa, and Captain Haines is starting to feel hopeful that his crew can use the throttles to descend enough and make a landing. He knows it will be a Herculean task, but the Sioux City Airport is not that far off of the plane's current flight path.

• 35:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Haynes will later say, quote, "We went to Sioux City because that's where the airplane went. We didn't have enough control to put it down in any place in particular. We just had to keep going until we got to the ground. The idea was to keep it in the air, hoping we could make it to the airport, because there are facilities there, there are emergency vehicles there, and there's a hospital there."

• 35:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So now Captain Fitch takes over the throttles while the other three men try to prepare as best they can. They're coordinating with Sioux City controllers and emergency services. They start dumping fuel to lighten the aircraft, and they manually open the landing gear's door, which you can do from the cockpit, so that gravity basically pulls down the landing gear because hydraulics won't do it.

• 35:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 35:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Haynes later says, quote, "They say your life flashes before your eyes, but we never thought we were going to die. We didn't think we were going to crash. We thought if we can just get this to the ground, keep it flying, we'll be okay. We were so busy, you don't have time to think about anything else."

• 36:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like, what else? You're not going to panic and give up. You just do whatever you can, probably.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you keep on working toward a solution. You just keep fighting. And especially in that situation. So, in the main cabin, of course, there's this eerie feeling, which passenger Jerry Schimmel later speaks about. He's the guy that got rebooked onto this flight. And he describes it as, quote, "A controlled panic. You could hear people crying. You could hear some people crying out loudly. But for the most part, people kept calm. I think we were all just trying to figure out how we were going to survive this thing." And then he adds, "We were probably as ready as we could be for a crash landing, and we knew it was going to be that. Captain Haynes told us over and over, 'We're in trouble,'

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  or, 'We don't have any control of this plane. You've got to be ready. You've got to listen. Flight attendants, you've got to know what you're doing.'"

• 37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 37:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's so off-script from anything you've ever heard a pilot say over the loudspeaker. It's just, must have been so horrifying. Sorry, we're still in the quote, "We knew we were going to crash. I think by the end, it was like, let's get this thing over with. Let's go."

• 37:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Because just the tension.

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So now the runway at the Sioux City Airport comes into view. Captain Fitch on the throttles easily sends the plane into a wide rightward turn. And then as it circles back around, Captain Haynes is hoping he can get the plane lined up as closely as possible to a runway. This is an extremely difficult task. They make several attempts. They do three huge loops. It takes about 45 minutes of trying and looping back around and trying to get closer and closer. The captain finally feels ready to make an attempt to land on the tarmac. And this is when Captain Fitch tells Captain Haynes, quote, "I'll tell you what, we'll have a beer when all this is done."

• 38:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 38:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And Captain Haynes responds, quote, "Well, I don't drink, but I'll sure as hell have one."

• 38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So they begin their descent. When the DC-10 is about 100 feet off the ground, Captain Fitch is thinking this, quote, "Your attitude is, I will do this. I will do it. I will not accept failure. I will not accept anything less than the best. Even if I die, that's the way I'm going to die."

• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. That makes sense.

• 38:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So as hard as they try, the crew simply cannot slow this plane down enough because as they can be lined up, they can, you know, all those things can be, come together, but they are going 270 miles an hour. And it's, that's twice as fast as any plane normally landing would be going.

• 38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, okay.

• 38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're not slowed down. Right. They have no controls. So they overshoot the airport. And then as they're coming down, they're so close to the ground, out of nowhere, the right wing drops out and the DC-10 nosedives. And the plane smashes into, they're now over a cornfield. They've overshot the airport. They're over a cornfield and they just smash straight into the cornfield.

• 39:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 39:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Passenger Jerry Schimmel, who is in the bracing position, will later say, quote, "It wasn't a crash landing. It was us dropping out of the sky and slamming into the earth."

• 39:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  "For all the thoughts I had about what it was going to be like, I wasn't ready for that."

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 39:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought, all right, a crash landing is a crash, but it's a landing. Ours felt like we just dropped out of the sky.

• 39:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Jesus.

• 39:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So immediately after initial impact, Jerry feels the DC-10 bounce a few times. It almost seems like the plane is about to take back off again. But instead, the nose turns downward, the tail comes up, and the plane begins flipping forward over and over. So it basically is in this, like, these forward cartwheel kind of moves.

• 40:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. Can you imagine seeing that? Just standing there seeing a fucking jet plane cartwheeling.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You know who did? Was the local news, who had heard that it was this emergency landing was happening, and they were posted up. You can watch it yourself.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, I don't want to.

• 40:22Karen Kilgariff?

  There's footage.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No, thank you.

• 40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I wouldn't. I wouldn't at all. But if that's something that is what you need, you can watch it, and it's very, very upsetting. So this airplane smashes into five pieces, and the pieces scatter. And they are buried into the ground among seven-foot-tall stalks of corn, which is very surreal. Some of the pieces skid for nearly a mile before they erupt into flames. Air traffic controllers, who had just been speaking with the cockpit crew, turn away from the site because they believe they've just witnessed the deaths of everyone onboard. And as I say, local news crews capture the disaster on film in real time. Jerry Schimmel and the head flight attendant, Jan Brown, are in the middle section of

• 41:08Karen Kilgariff?

  the plane, which, when it flips over, drills down so deeply into the cornfield that no daylight is visible outside of the windows. So it kind of goes down into the ground, almost like a pencil.

• 41:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And that's the front in the middle.

• 41:25Karen Kilgariff?

  They, I believe, are in the middle. They're basically in the first half of the main cabin. And in front of them was first class. And then the cockpit passed that.

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, got it.

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So now, everyone in this part of the plane is hanging upside down in their seats. The only thing providing any light is fire.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 41:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Jerry describes this hellish scene, saying, quote, "People were thrown all about the cabin, some still strapped in their chairs, some thrown from their chairs. They were out of their seats, whether their seat belts had given out, or the rivets in the chairs had given, then the debris and the smoke and the fire at the same time." Jan Brown blacks out and when she comes to, she doesn't know if she's alive or dead.

• 42:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 42:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But she will later say, quote, "I realized, oh my god, I'm still thinking. And then I thought, if I'm thinking, I'm still alive. The job just kicked in right after that. I heard someone behind me say, there's an opening. Sure enough, there's a big open hole where the first-class galley had been."

• 42:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 42:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So Jan and her colleagues immediately start getting passengers to safety. And she says, quote, "I was focused on getting these people out. I was holding this debris back, and they were walking by me. And it felt like I could have been saying, thank you for flying with us today. It was so calm, I guess because we were all in shock."

• 42:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, what an incredible thing. She did what she was trained to do.

• 42:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't freak out, which is just so incredible, you know? It's like, flight attendants are people. They're just people. But

• 42:59Karen Kilgariff?

  They're badasses.

• 43:00Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like nurses, where it's like, I have a job to do now.

• 43:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. When this situation, it is like their first responders.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:06Karen Kilgariff?

  They're, they're, they have to have nerves of steel like that. They have to be the, the leaders. She definitely was a leader. But that idea of like, they're getting people out of the hole, basically in the front of

• 43:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  a broken piece of plane.

• 43:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And that means there's people walking by you that just survived a plane crash. Like, what the fuck?

• 43:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And then there's people who haven't.

• 43:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So despite being in the same section of the plane, Jerry and Jan are actually separated by a thick wall of smoke. But Jerry's found an exit point on his side of that smoke wall that leads out to the cornfield. So now he starts helping people get out. But pretty soon, he realizes it's becoming too dangerous to stay inside the wreckage.

• 43:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Jan Brown says, quote, "The smoke was coming toward my position. I've never seen anything so dark and so lethal. This dark gray, like you would see in a tornado, except it was coming from what was now the ceiling. It had been the floor, just reeling toward my position. In the back of my mind, I thought this could blow up any minute. We're trained that when fire is too hot, the water is too deep, and the smoke is too thick, that's when you leave. So I left."

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 44:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So basically, almost everyone gets out before her, but then she just has to get out.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Because also, it's that thing of like, staying inside to help people while you're overcome with smoke, you'll just end up dying inside.

• 44:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not helping at that point. You're pandering.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So while she is navigating tall stalks of corn, Jan bumps into the passenger that had been holding her 22-month-old baby boy, his name was Evan, on her lap during the flight. And she's now trying to get back inside the wreckage to go look for her baby, who was thrown from her during the crash.

• 44:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 44:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Now Jan blocks her way, trying to tell her, you need to wait for the rescue workers. It's too, it's not safe, you know, like trying to protect this woman. And Jan remembers the woman looking her in the eye and saying, quote, "You told me to put my baby on the floor and I did." And he's gone.

• 45:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 45:06Karen Kilgariff?

  This is what makes that fucking show, I Survived, so, and just incredible. It's because, like, these stories of survival, the reason it's so compelling is because people die. And so it's like, the people who don't die get to tell the story, but that in and of itself is this burden. It is simultaneously, oh my god, thank god, and what a miracle, and also this burden and this, you know, it isn't like, especially in her situation where she was representing

• 45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 45:35Karen Kilgariff?

  the known policy of the time, and this woman's like, now I don't have my baby, and it's because of you.

• 45:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible. So she adds, after she says that part, she says, "I will live with that for the rest of my life." Baby Evan does not survive this plane crash.

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. I was hoping you were gonna...

• 45:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. But I will a little bit right now, because Jerry Schimmel, who is the passenger who was helping people off the plane, is now also realizing he needs to get to safety. Everybody has the same thing. It's just like, it's time to run. He says, quote, "I thought the wreckage might explode. It always does on TV. I thought about sprinting away, and at about that time, I thought I heard crying back inside. I didn't think about it. I didn't weigh the risks. I didn't think if I go back into the plane, I might now get back out. I just heard it, reacted, and the next thing I knew, I'm back in the plane." So through this smoke, Jerry follows the sound of crying to a closed overhead bin, which is now on the ground because the plane is upside down, right?

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  The cabin is upside down. And when he unlatches it and reaches inside, he pulls out a baby girl.

• 46:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  He says, quote, "I scooped her out with one arm and as soon as I touched her and put her in my arms, she stopped crying. I held her out in front of me. She had a little scrape on her face, a cut below her left eye. I wiped the blood away with my sleeve and that was it. That was the extent of her injuries. We were later told she'd been thrown 20 rows through the plane into that overhead bin and came out with just a scrape on her face."

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 47:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That baby's name is Sabrina Michelson and she is just about a week shy of her first birthday. She then is reunited with her family, who also all miraculously survived.

• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, can you imagine?

• 47:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so it takes the first responders about half an hour to find the cockpit, which has been flung far away from the rest of the wreckage and is buried in the cornstalks. Cranes have to be brought in to save the four crew members inside, who all have life-threatening injuries. But they all survived, all four of those men, including the guy that did not have to go up there and just was like, hey, let me help out.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 47:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So of the 297 people who walked onto Flight 232 that day, 112 of them died in this crash, making it one of the worst air disasters in US history.

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 48:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But at the same time, against all odds, 184 people survived this unsurvivable event, including three of the four infants that Jan Brunt had to tell the parents to put on the ground.

• 48:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, what a miracle that anyone survived, let alone that many people.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like if it had been anyone else in the cockpit, they weren't supposed to. Anyone was supposed to be allowed to survive that.

• 48:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right. And just the idea of like, a plane cartwheeling and breaking into five pieces, like, the idea that anyone could.

• 48:43Georgia Hardstark?

  What was the area that had the most survivors? And yes, I always want to know that. It's not first class. I think it's mid.

• 48:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think it's ever first class.

• 48:52Georgia Hardstark?

  First class.

• 48:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's the back of the plane.

• 48:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's mid or back. Yeah.

• 48:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But I do think it's probably, I mean, we should have a name for this, like as opposed to Corrections Corner. It's like hypotheses that's definitely wrong corner. But this is my thing is if the explosion was in the back of the plane, it might change

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:09Karen Kilgariff?

  odds, right? Because

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  it's not like a normal plane crash.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys know what to do. Tell us statistics.

• 49:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Tell us stuff that you also don't know about, but look up for one second on Google and act like an expert anyway.

• 49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And email us.

• 49:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And email us. Okay. The survival of these people is a testament to the quick thinking and the teamwork demonstrated by Captain Al Haynes, Captain Denny Fitch, Bill Records, Dudley Dvorak, and the calm leadership of lead flight attendant Jan Brown and her crew, and the courage of the regular people on board who became incredible heroes like Jerry Schimmel. The crew of Flight 232 become national heroes overnight. They are recognized by the US government with Polaris Awards, which honors exceptional and courageous airmanship. They're celebrated in a ceremony at the White House, and to this day, they're remembered for pulling

• 50:05Karen Kilgariff?

  off what many call an impossible landing.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  In the months after the crash, I actually, that reminds me, just remember that one, and it was at the Burbank Airport, and it was a JetBlue flight, and they had their front landing

• 50:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Karen Kilgariff?

  like gear was turned to the side.

• 50:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So he had to come down and land on the back landing gear, and then as slowly as possible, slow the plane down without putting the front landing gear down.

• 50:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, once he started to, it, it started sparking and catching fire.

• 50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But then it just, that went out. I watched it live on the news.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And you like, lived by there at the time?

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 50:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 50:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Sorry, I just interrupted this plane crash story to tell you another plane crash story. In the months after the crash, UPI reports that United's best pilot's attempt to replicate Captain Haynes' landing and the survival rate in flight simulators, no one could do it.

• 51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's almost like when they did land on accident, it wasn't supposed to happen, but maybe they wouldn't have survived.

• 51:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They did it the best they could have. They literally figured out the best survival rate in a situation where it was hopeless. Still, Captain Haynes, like his colleagues, struggled with PTSD and survivor's guilt for years. And Captain Haynes humbly says, quote, "We were just doing our job, but we did it together and we gave those people a chance."

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 51:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredibly, most of this cockpit crew returns to flying within a year of this crash.

• 51:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I mean, yes.

• 51:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yeah. They're like, "We're really good at this."

• 51:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But oh my god.

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes and no. Oh my god.

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Denny Fitch, who nearly dies from his injuries, is the one exception. He's told he'll never fly again. He's back in the cockpit within two years. So he just takes an extra year.

• 51:56Georgia Hardstark?

  To rehab.

• 51:57Karen Kilgariff?

  To beat the odds.

• 51:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 51:59Karen Kilgariff?

  To take some deep breaths and be like, "It's fine. I'm, I'm fine." A few years later, in 1991, in tribute to the skill and leadership demonstrated on that tragic July afternoon, United arranges a ceremonial flight from Denver to Chicago, the same route Flight 232 was meant to complete, and they invite the surviving crew members onboard. This will be Captain Haynes' last flight as a United pilot before he retires.

• 52:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Haynes passes away several years later in August of 2019, just shy of his 88th birthday.

• 52:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Captain Denny Fitch becomes a motivational speaker, and sadly, he dies of brain cancer in 2012, when he is 69 years old. Jerry Schummel, meanwhile, struggles emotionally following this disaster, and he credits his faith and his passion for bicycling with uplifting him from his trauma. And listen to this, it's so good. Every year for the last decade, Jerry Schummel makes a 112-mile cycling trip to honor the 112 victims of Flight 232.

• 53:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And in 2019, he tells The New York Times, quote, "I just want to make sure their families know they're not forgotten."

• 53:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And then there's lead flight attendant Jan Brown, who becomes a fierce lobbyist for increased child safety on airplanes.

• 53:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 53:25Karen Kilgariff?

  For more than two decades, she's devoted her life to banning the practice of babies sitting on their parents' laps during flights.

• 53:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 53:33Karen Kilgariff?

  This move is widely supported by pediatricians, as well as the largest union of flight attendants in the United States, who consider car seats to be the safest option for a small child while flying. Jan Brown dreams of getting a law passed in baby Evan's name. And she has said, quote, "That's what I can do for Evan to make sure he's not forgotten. I'll be doing this for the rest of my life."

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, damn, that hits you.

• 53:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it's like, the burden she is taking when it's like, "This was your job. They told you this was the way you had to do your job."

• 54:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Karen Kilgariff?

  "You did everything," right?

• 54:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't matter.

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 54:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Since this disaster, improvements have been made to airplane design and infrastructure that aim to prevent anything like this from happening again. And even though it's too late, just to reassure you, if you have a flight coming up in three months, flying today is very, very safe.

• 54:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:27Karen Kilgariff?

  The most recent safety report from the trade group International Air Transport Association found a very low accident rate of 1.13 per million flights, which means that there's roughly one safety incident for every 880,000 flights, making them extremely rare, per the association's standards.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is the story of the impossible landing of United Flight 232.

• 54:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, I had never heard that. Incredible.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I could have sworn I told the whole thing. I could have sworn, I was like, "I think I did this already." And it's like, "No, you just watched that TV show."

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible, especially on the heels of that tragic crash in India. I mean, "Oops, I watched the video. Don't do that."

• 55:17Karen Kilgariff?

  No, don't do that. It's horrible.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.

• 55:33Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 55:39Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 55:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 56:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 56:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

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• 56:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.

• 56:39Georgia Hardstark?

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• 56:44Karen Kilgariff?

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• 56:52Georgia Hardstark?

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• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

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• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

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• 57:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 57:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 57:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 57:27Georgia Hardstark?

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• 57:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM.

• 57:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 57:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, thank you.

• 57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What a story.

• 57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:43Georgia Hardstark?

  My story is lighter.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfect. What if you're like, I also have a plane crash story?

• 57:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not a plane crash story, but it does kind of go with the letter that you read about World War II, because it's a World War II story.

• 57:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 57:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But it's a heroic story that you're gonna love. It's a story of courage and heart and a very unlikely World War II hero. She wasn't a soldier, of course. She didn't carry a weapon, but she did help save lives. She even went on to have a post-war television career. She's just, she's admirable. I'm in the chaos of the Pacific theater. This tiny figure, no bigger than a loaf of bread, proved that bravery comes in all sizes. Today, I'm gonna tell you the story of a fearless heroine named Smokey, a teacup Yorkshire terrier, who not only helped construct vital communication lines under enemy fire,

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  but is also widely celebrated as the world's first therapy dog.

• 58:45Karen Kilgariff?

  What? I love this.

• 58:49Georgia Hardstark?

  This has been on my future story list for so long. I've been waiting for the day to tell it.

• 58:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You're telling it to the right person, too. I don't know why. I think it's that thing where like, why people like the pets they like, or the animals they like, or whatever. I have a real terrier thing. I love, you know, that's the kind of dog blossomeness. That kind of like, a little ratter, a little kind of like-

• 59:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Total, yeah, ratter, yeah.

• 59:11Karen Kilgariff?

  A little wire hair, kind of like, they're up for it. They're barky and yappy, but they also are smart. And they like to pick up one paw. When they're like, listening, they pick a paw.

• 59:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, Cookie does that.

• 59:23Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite. I know, they're the cutest.

• 59:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So the main sources I used for the story are an article in the Mansfield News Journal by Tim Clark and a book called Yorkie Doodle Dandy, which is a memoir by Bill Wynn, the veteran who raised her. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So it's February of 1944, and we're on the island of New Guinea. It's an island just north of Australia, and in 1942, Japan invades the island, and New Guinea becomes one of the most miserable battlegrounds in the Pacific. There's dense jungle and intense heat and several infectious diseases, making this place an incredibly dangerous and grueling place to be for everyone. That said, it's

• 1:00:08Georgia Hardstark?

  worth mentioning that the people who probably suffer the most, I will say, of course, is the island's indigenous population who are caught in the middle and they do suffer horrific abuses. So you've got to say that too. So in 1943, an American soldier is in New Guinea and he's fixing a broken down Jeep when he hears a whimpering noise coming from the tall grass. When he goes to investigate, he finds an abandoned foxhole. And in it, inexplicably, is a tiny four pound adult Yorkie. And this is so weird because it's not like a mix. It's not like a super mutt.

• 1:00:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, some stray dog from the local village or something.

• 1:00:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's like a Yorkie, which is actually like kind of a beautiful dog, right? And I actually don't, I don't know. Yeah, it's a beautiful dog. I don't know any personally. So I went online to make sure that anyone who wants to look them up can.

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You wanted to make sure those were available online?

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, my favorite online. Yeah, totally. And I didn't really know anything about Yorkies. So I looked it up. It's a British breed of toy dog, terrier type. It's among the smallest of the terriers and all breeds, really. It weighs no more than seven pounds and it originated in the 19th century in the English county of Yorkshire, of course. And they're introduced in North America in 1872 and they're described as having the confidence of a lion in a teacup body, just like you like. And petmd.com says, they are affectionate, playful, and sometimes bossy little dogs that have a lot of energy and need to be mentally stimulated.

• 1:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Very true.

• 1:01:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And so if you want to go on Instagram and look up a couple Instagram famous Yorkies, so you can picture one. There's Ducky the Yorkie, Peanut the Yorkie, and my absolute favorite, Eddie on Wheels, this senior citizen Yorkie who is such a grump. The videos are just his owner trying to get him out of bed in the morning.

• 1:02:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I've seen that when he growls. I just watched that on TikTok the other day. It's hilarious.

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just such a, yeah, so great. So that's, that's what we're dealing with here.

• 1:02:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it.

• 1:02:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So the soldier who finds this dog sells it to a friend.

• 1:02:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, I don't want a dog, but this dude named Bill Wynn is really excited. He's about 19 or 20 years old. He's in the air force. And, you know, he's pretty miserable at the moment on New Guinea and having this dog just immediately lifts his spirits.

• 1:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Because Bill has always loved dogs. As a kid in Ohio, he would form deep relationships with the neighborhood strays and on several occasions adopted and trained them. He writes, quote, "I know what kind of family lives in a house by observing its dog." And this is really offensive. "If the dog is calm, slow-paced, its people are quiet and serene. A charging, excitable dog probably lives with children."

• 1:03:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, them fighting words.

• 1:03:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Or people with childlike spirits.

• 1:03:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:03:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill had wanted to join the military after high school, but his fiance, a woman named Margaret, had convinced him not to, but it doesn't matter because about a year later, he gets drafted and winds up in the air force. In New Guinea, Bill pays two Australian pounds for the little Yorkie, which do you even want to try?

• 1:03:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Two Australian pounds in?

• 1:03:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So the Australian pounds are worth at the time, like $6.44.

• 1:03:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:03:36Georgia Hardstark?

  So if you could do that.

• 1:03:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's the 40s.

• 1:03:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's a, it's an Australian pound with American dollar in the 40s. I'm just going to go ahead and throw it out there. It's like around 40 bucks.

• 1:03:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So it should be. It's not. It should, it seems like this soldier who was selling it knew he had a mark on his hand. This guy really wanted this dog?

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So he ends up paying in today's money, $119 for the stock.

• 1:04:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:04:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like kind of expensive.

• 1:04:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Expensive, especially when you're a GI over in like fighting World War II.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't think Bill played it cool and he was like, do you want the dog? I guess I'll take the dog.

• 1:04:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:04:14Georgia Hardstark?

  He like pissed his pants.

• 1:04:15Karen Kilgariff?

  He was like crying and like, please, it means the world to me.

• 1:04:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll pay anything.

• 1:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys, you gotta play it cool.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So he says, quote, "I could hardly wait until quitting time to claim the weird little creature and give some serious attention to her physical condition." End quote. The soldier who found the dog uses that money to buy his way back into a poker game. So everyone's happy.

• 1:04:36Karen Kilgariff?

  We all have our vices.

• 1:04:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill names the dog Smokey. So Bill and Smokey instantly have a special bond. Bill is an aerial photographer, which is so cool. So his main responsibility is to take reconnaissance photos and he takes Smokey along with him on his flights over the Pacific on many missions in the cockpit with him, a tiny Yorkie.

• 1:04:59Karen Kilgariff?

  In his little front pocket?

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you could tuck him in your shirt. There were about 500,000 other war dogs that did bravely serve in World War II, which is so interesting, but these were official service animals that had been trained by the military or not four pound Yorkies.

• 1:05:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Found in a hole.

• 1:05:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Yeah. They had their own rations and dedicated medical care, but Smokey has access to none of these things. So Bill shares his rations with her. She's particularly fond of scrambled eggs.

• 1:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Are those powdered scrambled eggs?

• 1:05:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You know they are.

• 1:05:34Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 1:05:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Whenever he can find one, Bill gives Smokey an extra can of Spam, which is like bigger than she is. Smokey sleeps in Bill's cot in a little blanket made from the felt from a pool table.

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. To give Smokey a bath, Bill first dunks her in a helmet full of soapy water and then a helmet full of clean water. Like, I'm just picturing war. It's so awful. Like, service animal, you need an animal, like, like you see the, the cats standing on the shoulders of servicemen and women and you're like,

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I would freak out. I'd be so happy.

• 1:06:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It would make you so happy. And also there is all that science about like, there's that kind of animal pheromone, animal, human pheromone that when it's shared, it's like mutually beneficial to both. That's

• 1:06:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Why we all like each other.

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Despite the limited resources and complete lack of formal military training, Smokey is whip smart and learns commands from Bill very quickly. She turns out to be tough as nails as well. While many of the other war dogs in the Pacific theater develop paw injuries from running on coal strewn beaches, Smokey has no issues, perhaps because she's so little and light on her feet. Bill teaches Smokey to sing along while he plays the harmonica and she spends her evenings entertaining the troops.

• 1:06:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine on a little stage?

• 1:06:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine that is they were hurting for entertainment? They're just like, Bill's dog is gonna howl along as he plays the harmonica.

• 1:07:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Get this is the best show I've ever seen in my life. Shh, shh, shh, be quiet, be quiet. Smokey's singing.

• 1:07:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Phil says, quote, guys were arguing over who would get Smokey if I got knocked off.

• 1:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:07:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is why he said he started taking her on flights too. He's like, I don't want anyone else to get her.

• 1:07:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:07:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill winds up coming down with dengue fever, which is a tropical mosquito borne illness. And he winds up in the hospital for five days and Smokey goes along with him. And while she's there, she makes the rounds, visiting all the other sick and wounded soldiers and cheering them up. Bill credits her demonstrating the helpfulness of dogs in hospital settings as paving the way for the common use of therapy dogs.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:07:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause it wasn't a thing yet. And like our friend Jocelyn Hughes, her beautiful sweet dog Nugget is one of those hospital visit dogs. And I'm so impressed because Cookie could never, she's scared of children.

• 1:08:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a very specific personality.

• 1:08:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Frank would just walk in and pee on the hospital bed leg or something like he's just can't be trusted.

• 1:08:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:08:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Like you can pet me if you want to, but I'm also gonna eat the crackers out of your purse or whatever is happening.

• 1:08:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna chew on a wire that is essential to your being alive.

• 1:08:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Like an airplane.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill says, quote, she was the first therapy dog. All the lines of therapy go back to Smokey. She was a real spirit lifter, end quote.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you would think if you were laying in bed injured from a war, a battle injury and a teacup Yorkie walked by, you'd be like, oh, I'm hallucinating. This is crazy. And it's like, no, she's real, pet her.

• 1:08:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can pet her and she'll sing for you. So Smokey's best remembered for one particular important act of heroism that I'm going to tell you about. So it's 1945, it's towards the end of the war, and Bill becomes involved in what's to be known as the Luzon Campaign, which is a battle on the island of Luzon in the Philippines. At the beginning of this campaign, the Army needed to construct an airfield, and to do this, they needed to create some communication infrastructure. And this would mean about three days of digging to lay a telephone line. And doing that digging, those three days of digging, would expose those soldiers who are digging to enemy fire, because they're just right there in the open. And then also, it would

• 1:09:26Georgia Hardstark?

  endanger at least 40 pilots who would have to try to protect them from above. So, just a really dangerous mission. But the US has one crucial weapon: Smokey, the four-pound Yorkie. So, right near the area where the Army had intended to dig a ditch for the communications cable is a pre-existing culvert with a small pipe in it, about eight inches wide, running about 70 feet, the length of what will be the Army's new runway. So, it's far too small for a person to go through, or one of the trained military dogs, because they're big. But it's plenty big for Smokey. So Bill ties a piece of kite string to her collar, and that kite string is then tied to the communications cable. Bill goes to one end of the pipe, puts Smokey at the other, and then calls her over. Bill says,

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  quote, "She made a few steps in, and then ran back. 'Come, Smokey,' I said sharply, and she started through again. And with some coaxing, she actually makes it through." So after her successful mission, the soldiers want to reward Smokey with a big steak, and Bill writes, quote, "A big steak for a four-pound dog is about the size of a mini burger, but she earned her reward." When the war ends, Bill has to smuggle Smokey back to the US in a flight oxygen mask case.

• 1:10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  [laughing]

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Back home, which is so, like, Cookie wouldn't go in first class. She'd be like, "Go fuck yourself." And this sweet dog is like-

• 1:10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not for everybody. Smokey was perfectly designed for this job.

• 1:10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Cookie has her own dog seatbelt and dog car bed. I mean-

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Back home, Bill and Margaret get married and Smokey begins appearing with Bill on television shows, telling her story because everyone hears about it and they're like so excited. She does tricks and sings along with the harmonica on these shows. In fact, during this period, Bill and his wife actually live in LA and Bill starts working as a dog trainer for movies.

• 1:11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so rad. Bill then works as a photographer for NASA for seven years and then they move back to Cleveland, Ohio, where they're both originally from and Bill becomes a photojournalist for the Cleveland Plain Dealer and has a decades-long career there. So Smokey dies in 1957 at the age of about 14, which is really old for a dog, right? She's buried in Cleveland in an ammunition box. After Smokey dies, Bill publishes an obituary about her and this actually leads him to her original owner, which is bananas. A veteran who had also been stationed in New Guinea gets in touch with Bill and says that he had found a Yorkshire terrier while he was stationed there, but she had gotten lost.

• 1:11:59Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't really know her actual origins, but someone else had found her and she'd gotten lost. And what's really weird is that Bill had always noticed that when anyone said the word "Christmas," Smokey would freak out and get all excited. Turns out the guy's like, "I had named her Christmas."

• 1:12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait a second, though. So was that dog native to the island and the original guy found her? Or was like, was there a third person who smuggled her in?

• 1:12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like there's gotta be a smuggled-in backstory somewhere.

• 1:12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, or is this where we find out Yorkies are actually native to New Guinea?

• 1:12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Who knows? So now there's a memorial to Smokey where she's buried in Cleveland. It's a statue of a little Yorkie happily smiling from inside a military helmet. And there are 10 other monuments to her around the world as well.

• 1:12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Famous. Before the post-war era, Yorkies were obscure and kind of not in favor and their registration fell to an all-time low of 18%. So they were on the way out. They weren't fashionable anymore. But Smokey, when Smokey comes out,

• 1:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Boom.

• 1:13:07Georgia Hardstark?

  guns blazing, she's actually credited with a renewed interest in the breed. And in 2012 and 2013, the American Kennel Club ranked the Yorkshire Terrier as the sixth most popular purebred in the United States.

• 1:13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:13:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can definitely trace that back to Smokey.

• 1:13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all Smokey.

• 1:13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  She did it all.

• 1:13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill passes away in 2021 at the age of 99.

• 1:13:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  He spent his final years with his beloved dog, another Yorkie whom he named Smokey Two.

• 1:13:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's the story of Smokey, the World War II hero dog. We love a hero dog here on my favorite murder.

• 1:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Love a hero dog. We love a dog owner that's also a hero by adopting a dog mid goddamn war.

• 1:13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that was a good one. That's nice.

• 1:13:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:13:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Just that idea of Smokey, it's like having that piece of rope in her mouth, trying to run through that pipe, like how scary that would be for her.

• 1:14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And she did it.

• 1:14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Run, run, run. And like a little.

• 1:14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  She did it. Good girl. If Smokey can do it, you can do it. Put a piece of string or rope in your mouth and get going.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  If a four pound Yorkie can thrive, not survive, thrive during wartime on an island, you've got this.

• 1:14:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay.

• 1:14:27Georgia Hardstark?

  You're basically like 24 pound Yorkies in one person. What?

• 1:14:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's yours, many four pound Yorkies as, as your generational.

• 1:14:38Georgia Hardstark?

  As you want to be.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's up to you. The more, the better.

• 1:14:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Be the four pound Yorkie you want to see in your life.

• 1:14:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And adopt. Make sure you go adopt. Don't shop.

• 1:14:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Goddamn, don't shop.

• 1:14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to your local shelter and find the love of your life.

• 1:14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That changes the trajectory of your life completely.

• 1:14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  At Nora's graduation party, Frank and Blossom were there the whole time. And everybody's like, they're such good dogs. Where I'm like, what do you mean? They're just, they're standing around to try to get cheese and salami that falls off the charcuterie board. But okay.

• 1:15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I just love this story because it changed Bill. ...life in a incredible way. And I feel like if I hadn't had Elvis, I wouldn't be here right now. He like inspired me to try harder and to get people to pay attention to him because I wanted to, I wanted everyone to see how incredible he was.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I mean, like, I think this is what everyone's, this is what, what the internet has really given us is truly understanding that the way we value our animals is the way, how everybody feels about their animals. Your dog and your cat, like, it means the world to people and they are like their own little people.

• 1:15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just lovely. I love that story.

• 1:15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Yeah, I do too.

• 1:15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice one.

• 1:15:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thanks, you guys. Are we ending it?

• 1:15:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we should end this. Yeah, this should be the last episode. Goodbye. What if that was how we ended?

• 1:16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And with that?

• 1:16:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, bye. Guys, thank you for everything. Bye.

• 1:16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye, bye.

• 1:16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's summertime. I think we all got the summer wrap it ups all the time. So let's just say, we love doing this episode for you as we always do.

• 1:16:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you so much for listening.

• 1:16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, thank you for everything you've given us. You are our four pound Yorkie. Stay sexy.

• 1:16:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:16:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:17:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

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