Shoutout to grandmas

There's lots of news this week, so there are lots of guests as well. Nilay and Dieter are joined by Sean O'Kane, Jake Kastrenakes, and Kaitlyn Tiffany to talk about the Pluto flyby, San Diego Comic-Con, Windows 10, Reddit, and further refinement of the hype scale. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Nilay Patel?

  We're live here on The Vergecast.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:10Nilay Patel?

  I don't know.

• 0:10Speaker 02

  Why is everybody talking like that?

• 0:12Nilay Patel?

  I don't know.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Shouldn't I? I know this is only my second week, but...

• 0:15Nilay Patel?

  A common theme of the show is me blowing the open. Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Vergecast, a show from your friends at The Verge. I like to think that we're your friends. I'm Neelai Patel. To my right is Dieter Bohn.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:29Nilay Patel?

  To my left is Sean O'Kane.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 0:31Nilay Patel?

  Sean was here last week. I was not here last week, but Sean was here.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Rookie cast!

• 0:34Nilay Patel?

  It was a rookie cast, but Sean is gonna be here for a minute and then another Vergecast rookie, Jake Kasnackis, is gonna magically swap in for Sean.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:44Nilay Patel?

  But then...

• 0:44Speaker 02

  He's worked for us for like 20 years.

• 0:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Jake is...

• 0:47Speaker 02

  How's that on the show yet?

• 0:48Nilay Patel?

  Jake is not a rookie.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Jake was the Verge's first test tube, baby. Designed specifically to hit news.

• 0:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we created Jake in a lab.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Oh, he's in the room right here.

• 0:57Nilay Patel?

  He's a...

• 0:58Speaker 02

  It's really creepy.

• 0:59Nilay Patel?

  We literally... Jake, turn around so we can literally talk behind your back. And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, in the hype seed.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Big deal.

• 1:08Nilay Patel?

  Oh, yeah. Big deal. Big day. Big experience for us all. Kaitlyn Tiffany.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 1:14Nilay Patel?

  There she is.

• 1:15Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16Nilay Patel?

  We're clapping. I'll clap. So you...

• 1:19Speaker 03

  That was a meager response, I bet.

• 1:21Nilay Patel?

  Well, there's only three people in the room.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23Nilay Patel?

  And there's microphones. If we clap on the microphone, then John will get mad at us. So, if you are a Verge experiencer... Is that a phrase?

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Verge influencer? If you've been activated by the Verge brand.

• 1:38Nilay Patel?

  You know that we often use social media. That's a thing that we do. And the person that you might think in your mind uses social media for The Verge is usually Sam Sheffer. But what is true is that Sam has...

• 1:53Nilay Patel?

  A compatriot, a partner, a younger, better, cooler Sam.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:58Nilay Patel?

  And that is Caitlin, who just started with us.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 2:01Nilay Patel?

  You're like three months in now.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:04Nilay Patel?

  And Caitlin, and I say this, I say this in all sincerity, Caitlin maintains one of the best Twitter feeds at The Verge.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11Nilay Patel?

  Uh, it is a dark journey into Caitlin's mind, uh, and that mind is constantly experiencing True Detective and being pissed about it.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, but well.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Also Pretty Little Liars, right?

• 2:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, it's like one part True Detective, one part Pretty Little Liars, eight parts Niall Horan from One Direction. And like, nothing else goes on in my brain ever.

• 2:35Nilay Patel?

  Uh, well, welcome Caitlin. I promise you that we will say her Twitter handle at the end of the show.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 2:40Nilay Patel?

  We'll save it. That's, that's my, my hook for you, the listener, uh, is I told you it was great, but I won't tell you where to find it until later.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  I have the least number of followers of anyone who works at this media organization.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  That's going to change.

• 2:52Nilay Patel?

  If there's one thing you'll accomplish with this podcast today, it's getting you at least one additional.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  I already have a new one.

• 2:58Nilay Patel?

  There you go.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  It's Tobias Brightwiser.

• 3:01Nilay Patel?

  Oh, that dude's super excited.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:03Nilay Patel?

  It's all happening for you, Tobias.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  I've checked Tobias.

• 3:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. No, don't. It's so rude.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:08Nilay Patel?

  You're supposed to say super hype. Tobias, you're great.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  All right.

• 3:12Nilay Patel?

  So let's get into it. So we actually had a big week of news. There's a reason, we had so much news, there's a reason that we need to have both Sean and then Jake on the show. Uh, but I think the biggest news in, uh, perhaps the history of our species.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Definitely in the solar system.

• 3:28Nilay Patel?

  Uh, is that we, uh, we saw some Pluto this week. Uh, Sean, you and Lauren have been doing killer Pluto coverage for us this whole week.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:36Nilay Patel?

  You took a trip to like watch it with NASA.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:39Nilay Patel?

  Uh, tell us, tell us what happened.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty wild. Uh, the mission control for New Horizons is a spacecraft that made it to Pluto this week. And that spacecraft was run out of Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory in Maryland. So NASA held a big event. They brought a whole bunch of NASA people there. The whole New Horizons team was there. All of the media was there.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  From big TV outlets to newspapers to websites and everything. And so I got there on Monday and they basically, from Sunday until yesterday, have been holding media briefings, basically giving access to all the team scientists to talk about the geology of the planet, the atmosphere, the moons, everything that is going on around Pluto. And then all sort of through the lens of us seeing this planet for the first time, basically. And the funny thing is, I think the first thing that people think about with Pluto is how it was sort of a planet and now it's not really a planet.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  And it's all just sort of, it's like a sort of smoke and mirrors. It doesn't really matter. But everybody on the New Horizons team, when they were asked, because they were inevitably asked about it over and over and over, were just like, we call it a planet. It's a planet.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Really?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  They did this whole thing where they called it the Pluto salute, where they have everybody hold up nine fingers for the nine planets.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  So you see a lot of the press images from this week where they're like doing that. So that, all that stuff is like kind of totally ancillary. The big news was, you know, in the last couple of weeks, we've seen this thing come into view as the spacecraft got closer and closer. And that just accelerated exponentially as it got closer because we finally got our first real look of, you know, not just pixels, but our first real look at this thing in great detail and not just the whole disk of it. We, by the time we found out that the spacecraft survived, we finally got high-res, I think it's 100 kilometers per pixel, or no, 4 kilometers per pixel, I don't know. High-res detail of the surface, we can actually see the mountains and everything.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  And no craters.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and in a week, we went from it being still a pretty fuzzy little dot where you could resolve some detail to something where, I mean, somebody already made like a 3D map of it.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  So it's really pretty wild how quickly it changed over the last week.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  And there's a big blank spot that if you look at it, just so it actually looks like Pluto the dog.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Or a heart. Yeah, they call it a heart.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I always think it's really funny. We did this a lot with Filet, the lander that landed on the comet last year, where we sort of ascribe these personalities to these spacecraft or things in space because it's just easier to relate to them when we think of them as like people almost, or we look for things and then it's like looking at clouds in the sky and like trying to name a shape. Uh, so as soon as Pluto really started to come into view, we saw this heart shape, which is basically a giant plane. Uh, that they think is maybe made of ice, maybe some snow.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  And it looks just like a heart. And so everybody kind of like went wild over that because it's like, you see a shape you recognize and everybody goes crazy. It's like, ooh, bright and shiny. And, uh, but then people started seeing other things in it because like, if you turn it one way, it did kind of look like Pluto. If you turn it another way, it looks like.

• 6:53Nilay Patel?

  Pluto the dog.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, Pluto the dog. Yeah, sorry. And, um, so yeah, so it's, it's really kind of funny watching everybody like hone in on these like weird things while there's like all this other stuff going on.

• 7:04Nilay Patel?

  And we also got the moon Charon.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, uh, basically pronounce it however you want. No one's really sure. Uh, it was named after, uh, the, so the man who found, uh, found originally found Sharon. Named it after his wife Charlene. So he says that you pronounce it like Shar, as you were going to say Charlene and then on. So Sharon.

• 7:27Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  And that like slips, but I mean, I heard.

• 7:30Nilay Patel?

  That's not cool.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  I mean, it's cool for his.

• 7:33Nilay Patel?

  It's cool for his wife, but his wife is like, don't call me Sharon. I think it's probably like what she's thinking.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I mean, he couldn't just, I guess he couldn't just call it Charlene. I don't know. Maybe he could have.

• 7:43Nilay Patel?

  Wait, let me, let me ask you, what's cooler? Uh, moon, a distant moon called Sharon or a distant mood called Charlene?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  I'm actually super disappointed to hear this story because I assumed it was named after the, the Greek ferryman, like Karen.

• 7:56Nilay Patel?

  No, that's what, uh, that's what Neil deGrasse Tyson was saying. He said that to Stephen Colbert.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Which is really cool because he's like, cause like he, it's, it's this guy's job to like take you into hell. And this is like the, one of the last things in our solar system. And so you like.

• 8:07Nilay Patel?

  Dude, Charlene, dude, Charlene, you're a bum rat. He's like, what do I think of when I think of my wife? I think of an ancient guy who took you to hell on a boat.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I mean, marriage, right?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 8:20Nilay Patel?

  That's terrible.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  So hang on, so Pluto and, and I don't, I'm not gonna say the word again.

• 8:25Nilay Patel?

  Charlene, just call it Charlene.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Charlene.

• 8:27Nilay Patel?

  Well, no, so as a people, we should just call it Charlene.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  The moon doesn't actually orbit Pluto, they like orbit each other a little bit?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do. So, so Charon is close enough to Pluto and big enough relative to Pluto that, that the center of gravity between the two of them actually is slightly off of the surface of Pluto.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  So they, they orbit this space that kind of just exists in between the two of them. And they're tightly locked, so it means that one side of Charon and one side of Pluto are always.

• 8:58Nilay Patel?

  Marriage, man.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Are always facing each other. And, and that's why they think there's that dark spot that we saw in greater detail throughout the week on top of Charlene.

• 9:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  That, that as we got closer to it, it looked redder and redder. And it's this really big spot, it doesn't quite look like an impact crater, because there are really small impact craters on that moon. And they think because the two bodies are tightly locked and always facing the same side to each other, that spot might actually be material from Pluto that's leaking over onto, onto the moon.

• 9:34Nilay Patel?

  That's some like crazy sci-fi stuff.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and what's cool about it is like, that's a thing that they kind of thought, and then the data that they've, and the images that they saw this week started to back it up, or they could, you know, make theories about it. And so this like team of really incredibly smart scientists who have been doing this for decades, and many of the New Horizons team have been trying to get to Pluto for decades, all sort of working together, they all, the core group of them are known as the Pluto Underground. And they have been, I mean, they've literally been like putting together the plans that kept getting denied or failed since like the late eighties, early nineties. And it's the same, like kind of six or seven people.

• 10:13Nilay Patel?

  The Pluto Underground.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, right? It's like the greatest, the greatest grunge record ever. Yeah, and so they, they're, all these people are still like learning about this in front of you, which was the coolest thing about being there this week. But what made that even better was the whole drama of Tuesday was flyby day. And what was basically happening was the spacecraft finally got there.

• 10:38Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  It was going too fast to put into orbit, orbit around Pluto. It doesn't have enough fuel to like, slow it down and kick it into orbit around Pluto. So you're just gonna do a flyby past it, keep going and do as much science as you can while you're flying by it.

• 10:51Nilay Patel?

  It's like less than an hour, right?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was gone pretty quick. It was going.

• 10:55Nilay Patel?

  Where is it now?

• 10:56Speaker 02

  So now it's, you know, a couple, probably at least a million, probably more miles past Pluto.

• 11:04Nilay Patel?

  But just out there.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's headed deeper into the Kuiper Belt, which is the Pluto's at sort of the front edge of the Kuiper Belt, which is this thing in like the outer, near the sort of outer solar system, kind of in the middle of it, where there's just all these objects, all the stuff that's left over from our planets forming millions and millions and millions of years ago, are these like smaller moons and stuff that are just like hanging out, out there in the darkness.

• 11:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  So their New Horizons is like heading out there. And if they, they're spending the next 16 months getting the rest of the data off the spacecraft and looking at all the images and stuff.

• 11:37Nilay Patel?

  So the spacecraft is getting farther and farther away, but still sending data?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:40Nilay Patel?

  So does that rate slow down?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I think so, but it's already pretty slow.

• 11:45Nilay Patel?

  Right, it's like really slow.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  It's like a really crazy.

• 11:48Nilay Patel?

  Everyone keeps saying slower than a 56K modem.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's like even, that's just like what people like think to relate it to. And they're like, we wish, like, it's so great. But yeah, it basically, once that 16 month period is up, and we have all the data off the spacecraft about Pluto and its moons, we, the New Horizons team is kind of done, unless they can get a mission extension, which requires more funding.

• 12:12Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  You know, a whole bunch of stuff. But they want to take it to, there are a lot of other objects in that Kuiper Belt that we do know about that are not as big as Pluto, but like maybe as big as some of its moons. Well, they're cool. And they got cooler this week because we found out that when you look at the surface of Pluto in that high res image, you see all these crazy 11,000 foot tall mountains. And that shouldn't be happening.

• 12:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, then you should see like way more craters.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah, so there's two things. We should see way more craters and we shouldn't see as much, as many surface features. And that's because. There's no, so the earth has all this tectonic movement because it's got this really hot radiated core in the middle and that creates all this, all these forces that move stuff around. And if you don't have that, then the only other way we thought that that could happen on a surface is if you were near like a giant body. So some of the moons in the solar system like Europa around Jupiter has surface features because it has this giant body next to it with gravity that's like a lot of gravity that's like pulling on it all the time as it orbits. Jupiter or Pluto doesn't have any of that. So they didn't think that it was going to have like really fascinating surface features. So now

• 13:19Speaker 02

  they got to figure out why it has all that stuff. And then it also has a young surface because there's no impact craters. So they got to figure out why that's the case too. And they think that's also part, you know, tied together with why there's so many surface features because it's Pluto's more dynamic than we think. And so because of that, that means the Kuiper belt objects might actually be way more interesting than we thought. If this could happen at Pluto, this could happen at some of these even smaller places, not too far past.

• 13:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, the quotes I've been seeing are all like, throw out everything that we know. Like start all over.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Which is kind of how these things are always treated.

• 13:50Nilay Patel?

  And then I will say, there's also a bunch of Neil deGrasse Tyson just being salty.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:54Nilay Patel?

  Which is really weird.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Why is he so salty?

• 13:57Nilay Patel?

  Did you see his interview with Colbert where he was just like, screw Pluto. It's like, I'm wearing this tie.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:01Nilay Patel?

  My tie has eight planets on it.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Well, the best thing about that was he said-

• 14:04Nilay Patel?

  It's like just how, like Neil deGrasse Tyson is like, I'm, A, like, everyone loves him.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:09Nilay Patel?

  B, he's obviously a killer scientist, right? Director of the Hayden Planetarium.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:12Nilay Patel?

  C is like the world's biggest cheerleader for science and innovation, exploration. And it's like, except for Pluto.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:21Nilay Patel?

  Except that he, he just, motherfucker hates Pluto.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  He even said in that, in that video that he'd rather, he'd rather demote all the rocky planets in the solar system to dwarf planet status than call Pluto a planet.

• 14:35Nilay Patel?

  Wow.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  But it's, it's all semantics. It like, quite literally doesn't matter at all. And Alan-

• 14:40Nilay Patel?

  Well, except for his tie. There's tie makers the world over who are putting eight planets on a tie.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, for those guys, sorry tie makers.

• 14:48Nilay Patel?

  They're all wrong. All right, we gotta do it. All right, Caitlin? Yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready. This is your first moment. You've seen the show before. Yes. You're aware of Sam's general affect.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Uh, sure.

• 14:56Nilay Patel?

  I mean, Caitlin literally sits across from Sam every day, all day.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  I also watch all of his periscopes. Last night I watched him eat pizza for like 10 minutes.

• 15:05Nilay Patel?

  Actually, do you know my best Sam periscope story? I don't know if you guys saw this fly by on Twitter. We have a, there's a developer at Voxia named Eden. Eden's great. She lives in Canada. And last night she was periscoping her mom. She's gonna kill me for telling this story. But she was periscoping her mom. Her mom was like, well, her mom was cooking. She's making a, uh, she's like making muffins or something.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Banana bread.

• 15:27Nilay Patel?

  No, it wasn't banana bread. It was something. But, uh, it doesn't matter. Her mom was cooking and her mom admitted on the periscope, like, I've been drinking. And then

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Step one.

• 15:36Nilay Patel?

  Someone else at Voxia, the student Mark, was like, you should introduce your mom to Sam. And Eden was like, on the periscope was like, Mom, like, one of my friends thinks you should meet my other friend, Sam.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 15:46Nilay Patel?

  And then Eden's mom was like, who's Sam? I don't need any more little pimps in my life. And then like Eden's Twitter like exploded. She's like, my mom just called Sam a little pimp and I don't know. It was like, it was just like a perfect little Twitter internet moment. Like, all of these worlds collided. Anyway. So Caitlin.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:05Nilay Patel?

  Type check Pluto.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  I've checked Pluto. Okay. We're using the Pitchfork scale of hype. I've decided.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Okay. This is gonna, this is gonna be rough.

• 16:11Nilay Patel?

  Everyone has their own hype scale. I get it.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Pluto gets, Pluto's gonna get an 8.7.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Whoa, that's good for Pitchfork.

• 16:18Nilay Patel?

  Best new track.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Very specific.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Best new not a planet that we have seen close up.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:24Nilay Patel?

  I like it.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  I can live with that. I was, you say Pitchfork. I was just expecting like 2.3.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Like, like it's good, but it's not as good as everything.

• 16:33Nilay Patel?

  Verge readers often get mad at us about our 10.0 scale.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:39Nilay Patel?

  Pitchfork, they're writers and they pitch album reviews to Pitchfork. Before it's written or approved or accepted or published or paid for, they pitch the score.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 16:48Nilay Patel?

  This is true. So when, so you think we're crazy. At least we like use the thing. Pitchfork reviewers show up and they're like, we got this new record. It's a 6.5. I want to write a thousand words about it. And the editor is like, yeah, that sounds good. Or they argue.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  It's efficient.

• 17:02Nilay Patel?

  It's something.

• 17:04Nilay Patel?

  I have a lot of feelings about Pitchfork. All right, Sean, is there anything else we need to talk about with Pluto? Tell me what the scene was like at the place. You were there, you were real.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Well, that's the coolest thing about it was the drama. I mean, all that other stuff was great, but like, no one really knew. So like, it was gonna do that flyby, and the delay between the spacecraft, because it's so far out, it's 3 billion miles away. So the delay, even light speed, it takes 4 and 1/2 hours to get a signal there, and 4 and 1/2 to get back. So, the flyby was supposed to happen that morning, right around 8 o'clock in the morning. And, they had a big countdown, and everybody celebrated, because you're just kinda like, "Hey, that thing that's out there should have just passed the point it was supposed to pass at this time." And then, everybody spent the rest of the day kinda like, thinking in the back of their head, "We don't know until, basically 9 o'clock tonight, whether or not it made it." And they programmed the spacecraft to go past Pluto, basically shut down its communications,

• 17:56Speaker 02

  because the way the antenna was on the like, other side from the instruments, so it couldn't talk to the Earth and study Pluto at the same time. So, it was programmed to like, do as much science as it could, get past Pluto, do some more science, and then turn back to the Earth and say like, "Hey, I'm good."

• 18:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Like, "We got it." And, that was like, a 13-hour wait, because of the delay, and because of the amount of time it was passing Pluto. Uh, so it was like, it was really, really, it was really exciting, because everybody was just so happy from the morning, and all the scientists were really happy to talk to everybody about the image, because they had to make all these new theories about like, what might be on Pluto and all this stuff. But like, as the day went by, it started to get a little bit more tense, and a little bit more tense, and a little bit more tense. And you've got, you've got guests from the public, you know, like, parents and kids, you've got media, you've got staffers at Johns Hopkins who have never seen an event like this happen on their campus before, and it's like, sort of like, pushing the limits

• 18:53Speaker 02

  of their, their, uh, center that, where they held everything, and, and it's just getting more and more tense. And then, when everybody got seated in that auditorium, for the final sort of like, event, where we were waiting to hear, waiting to watch, you know, on the screen, the mission operations room, which was like, just sort of on the other side of campus, and waiting for them to get the signal, that was when everybody was kinda like... Yeah, and it got really, it got really tense. And even you could see like the missions, operations team that were around, were like starting to think about it more. And you're watching this like live feed of the missions, missions operation room and they hear that it gets locked with a spacecraft, which is good, it meant it was alive.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  But then you gotta wait for them to call out, it's like the reverse of a rocket launch where they call out like, is this system ready? Go, you know, like et cetera, et cetera. They're basically like calling out all the instruments. Do we get all of the data from this? Do we get all the data from that? They're going through each one and as each one is announced that like, yeah, we got it. Everybody in the audience is like, yeah. And then they're like immediately quieting down because they want to hear if the next one is it? And they go through this thing and then, so it took like two minutes to really know for sure. Even though most of the scientists had like no doubt in their mind that this thing was still alive. Basically, the only thing that really could have killed it, other than like the thing just dying coincidentally at the same time, was if it was making a close enough paths, pass, it could have hit some debris. Like, there's a lot of dust around Pluto. So, something could have taken it out.

• 20:20Nilay Patel?

  That's what happens in the Michael Bay movie.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah, and it was like a one in 10,000 chance, but like, it could have happened. And at one point during the day, someone, the, the lead of the mission was actually like, uh, yeah, it's like a one or a two in 10,000 chance. And I was like, did the, did the chances go up? Could we just get closer to a disaster? So, so that whole, like, it was really fun and exciting to like, watch these really smart people learn all this stuff, but like, through that lens of everybody just like, kind of worrying with a smile on their face, was just like, really, really crazy to see. And knowing that this is really the last thing like this that we have in any of our generations.

• 21:00Nilay Patel?

  And Neil, this is what I'm saying, like Neil, get it together. Like, have a little joy.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  Maybe kick a little bit of that, you know, TV coin towards NASA.

• 21:10Nilay Patel?

  I think it's a planet.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  I mean, basically, if you, even if you look in like the media coverage, everybody's just kind of like, I'm not going to go through like, the sort of word acrobatics that I need to do to like, call it something else. Like, it's just the planet, the planet's surface, the, you know, like all that. And I think everybody's just totally fine with it. Cause like, I mean, most people look at it and are like, yeah, I'd want to see a rover on that thing.

• 21:32Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I mean, it just looks so awesome. Like, why wouldn't we want to explore that thing anymore?

• 21:37Nilay Patel?

  Kind of hard on it. All right. Sean, thank you so much. I'm gonna read an ad, we're gonna switch it out to Jake. We're gonna, we're gonna jump into some, we're gonna go from Pluto to Comic Con.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:45Nilay Patel?

  Another location in outer space. All right, let's do it.

• 21:51Nilay Patel?

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• 22:36Nilay Patel?

  Sign up, once again, for a free 30 day trial today. Jake Castrenakis, it's zero.com/podcast.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  I'm excited.

• 22:46Nilay Patel?

  We're out of the money zone.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Explain to me how this is your first Verge cast.

• 22:51Nilay Patel?

  How did the- Jake, how long have you worked here? It's a long time.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  I, I, I feel terrible.

• 22:56Nilay Patel?

  I feel, no, here's the thing. And it's all gonna come together. I want, because Jake was just at Comic Con. But before we, we talk about Jake at Comic Con, tell your origin story.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, three years ago, you hired me-

• 23:12Nilay Patel?

  He's not a superhero.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yes, he is.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  And, I mean, it was literally-

• 23:18Nilay Patel?

  Three years ago Jake was an intern.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  It was like the quickest meeting ever. And you were just kinda sitting there and you're like, okay.

• 23:26Nilay Patel?

  The Verge hiring process.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  It's very rigorous.

• 23:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, you know, around six months later, I started doing news writing and I have not stopped.

• 23:38Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Nonstop, ever since.

• 23:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think there were a few days off here and there.

• 23:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. But now you're doing more, you're doing more culture stuff, we're sending you places.

• 23:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, no, it's been fun. Yes, this ended up being my first Comic Con.

• 23:48Nilay Patel?

  If you, here's the thing, if you read The Verge, you have undoubtedly read Jake's work, because he's produced most of The Verge himself. For like the past three years. So anyway, so you're at Comic Con.

• 24:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:02Nilay Patel?

  I mean, tell me, tell me in broad strokes about Comic Con.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  It is literally the most insane thing. You can't walk. There is just so many people there and so many things going on. And I mean, name something nerdy, it is there.

• 24:17Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  So basically, I think there are about three different things going on. There's the show floor, which I think is where like 99% of people spend 99% of their time. And that is just, it's essentially a huge store, but it's a huge store filled with all of the coolest, nerdiest, geekiest stuff you can think of. And that's everything from like crazy and crazy expensive toys to like the Ant-Man suit, which is maybe just on display to VR experiences that you can pick up to try out. And there's also all these independent artists and comics and just tons of stuff that you would never find anywhere else unless you were like really intensely browsing the internet for this stuff. So I saw a lot of really awesome art that I

• 25:01Speaker 04

  would not have otherwise seen. The other big thing going on is the panels.

• 25:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 25:05Speaker 04

  And that's, I think, what you hear the most about.

• 25:08Nilay Patel?

  Which is, it's totally different because the other huge trade show we go to is CES.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 25:12Nilay Patel?

  Which all we cover is the show floor.

• 25:15Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 25:15Nilay Patel?

  And we never talk about the panels.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:17Nilay Patel?

  And at Comic Con, it's like the show floor is there. Everyone's doing stuff on the show floor. We barely report on it.

• 25:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:23Nilay Patel?

  And the whole world cares what happens to these panels.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  Well, the panels are where all the star power is. I mean, like unnecessarily so.

• 25:30Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Like there is a trailer or there is a panel for the new X-Men and they brought out all of its stars. And like, they didn't even have time to speak. There was just like way too many people on the stage. It was ridiculous. Each, like eventually the moderator was like, okay, you answer a question quickly, you go quickly, you go quickly. And I was just like, this is really not, but the, the crowd eats it up just because they're standing in a room.

• 25:55Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. So actually, the crowd eats it up because they have like Stockholm syndrome and they're like, they've been conditioned by the experience to love whatever is put in front of them no matter what.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're quite likely delirious at that point.

• 26:07Nilay Patel?

  So let's, let's, before we get into the. The emotion of Comic Con. Really quickly, go through the big news from the show.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  The big news in the show. So the two huge things, there was Star Wars. And, um, you know, they had a behind the scenes video. And they surprised everyone and they took like about 6,500 people to a surprise concert.

• 26:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  Um, that was just like around the corner. They like had people in stormtrooper outfits like lead them out there.

• 26:35Nilay Patel?

  Type check Star Wars. Should not even pay attention.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  I've never seen Star Wars. Sorry.

• 26:39Nilay Patel?

  This is true. I found this out this morning.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  What'd you see it?

• 26:43Nilay Patel?

  How have you never seen Star Wars?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  I, well, okay.

• 26:46Nilay Patel?

  Is this religious for you?

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Is it religious?

• 26:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, like you're never gonna see it. Like, my wife refused to read Harry Potter for years and years and years and years. This is true.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  I guess it's like, I got through that pivotal age where you're supposed to be like getting excited about stuff. And now it's too late and I feel like I've missed out. And if I did it, I'm just a follower.

• 27:03Nilay Patel?

  I definitely feel a thousand years old now. There's nothing left for me except death. That's the, that's how you made me.

• 27:12Nilay Patel?

  I got to the age where I could feel emotions that were joy.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  She's right, though. I don't think, I don't think you will like it as much if you don't have that relationship with it from childhood.

• 27:21Nilay Patel?

  Interesting. Well, that means that there's gonna be generations, at least two generations of children who hate Star Wars. Because the Star Wars that came out when they were kids were the garbage Star Wars.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Or they just love Jar Jar and we don't realize it yet.

• 27:37Nilay Patel?

  Who are those people and how do we send them to another country?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I've got like a five year old nephew who definitely loves Star Wars and like he

• 27:44Nilay Patel?

  But big, but

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Cut his teeth on those newer movies.

• 27:46Nilay Patel?

  Like he, I mean. The newer movies are like, A, like they're not even exciting. Like they're about like congressional politics. Yeah. Like at their core, like the, what's the second one?

• 27:58Speaker 01

  The second one's the best one.

• 27:58Nilay Patel?

  Pod, Podme battles.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Revenge of the Sith.

• 28:01Nilay Patel?

  No, that's the third one. The second one is tremendously boring.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's got the most Obi-Wan, so I like it.

• 28:07Nilay Patel?

  Remember the name.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  God damn it.

• 28:11Nilay Patel?

  All right, keep going. What else happened? So Star Wars, but this is like a big reboot for Star Wars, right?

• 28:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, I think one of the big things that they pushed is they know the crowd. They know they want this throwback to old Star Wars and they're like, look, it's practical effects and crazy outfits. It's everything that you've always loved. You know, they brought out Harrison Ford, who, you know, had been in a plane crash recently. The whole gang was there. Everyone was excited. Of course, they're gonna be excited, but you know, that's, that's a narrative. This is gonna be more like the original trilogy than the new trilogy. You know, I think I believe them for now.

• 28:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, but so, but they didn't show anything new, right? It was just like,

• 28:53Speaker 04

  Not, not really. They had a behind the scenes reel that was like mostly what was in the first trailer.

• 28:59Nilay Patel?

  Right. But then they took everybody, because from my perspective, everyone's like, Star Wars blew away comic.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:05Nilay Patel?

  But they didn't actually.

• 29:06Speaker 04

  So they blew it away because, you know, most of these things, at the end of the day, they're, they're showing you a trailer.

• 29:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  And that's okay, but I can watch a trailer in New York.

• 29:16Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  But then they were like, hey, you and only you who took the time to sit in line and come out to this room and stay in this room for like 10 hours or something are going to get to go to this crazy special performance. We're gonna play music that you love, that, you know, sends you back to your childhood. We're gonna give you this like free toy lightsaber. And then they like shot off fireworks and stuff. I don't like, it's just like making everyone's emotions like go wild. And that's why it won, because it made people, you know, think it's okay to love Star Wars again.

• 29:50Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so that's Star Wars. What else happened? There's just so much. I want to go, we're gonna circle back.

• 29:54Speaker 04

  So DC went out, you know, Batman versus Superman.

• 29:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 04

  New trailer. Batman is mad as Caitlyn.

• 30:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, super bad. I've checked Batman versus Superman.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Okay, 10 because

• 30:07Nilay Patel?

  What?

• 30:08Speaker 03

  Ben Affleck is, I have this thing where I feel like I'm secretly the mother of many white male actors who are like struggling. So like, that's like Ben Affleck and Jake Gyllenhaal and Matt Damon. And I'm like, really invested in their success.

• 30:24Nilay Patel?

  Like you feel maternal?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:27Nilay Patel?

  You feel maternal for Ben Affleck?

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Like, sometimes I'm disappointed in him, but I always love him. And I believe in his potential.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Why is he so mad?

• 30:39Nilay Patel?

  Isn't he wildly successful most of the time?

• 30:42Speaker 03

  I mean, everybody's so mean to him, like, I don't know.

• 30:46Nilay Patel?

  All right, but but only because you feel maternal for Ben Affleck is Batman v Superman at 10?

• 30:51Speaker 03

  Well, also, I mean, I don't know, I'm kind of over this Marvel thing where it's like, we're leaning into the goofiness of comics. I'm like, yeah, but you're making very bad movies.

• 30:59Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  So, I mean, you know, maybe DC is like my chance to get into comic book movies without them being bad.

• 31:06Nilay Patel?

  I don't know.

• 31:10Nilay Patel?

  And I definitely don't know if Suicide Squad is where that starts for you.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, but Margot Robbie is gonna get famous, so this is exciting.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  She looked amazing in the trailer.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, she looks, I mean, also crazy.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  Yes, which is perfect, though.

• 31:22Nilay Patel?

  I have to say, one of the the best moments that we've had in like a Verge Slack in a long time is when Emily noticed that in the Suicide Squad trailer, one of the characters says, so we're like a Suicide Squad?

• 31:33Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:34Nilay Patel?

  And she's like, maybe in every movie, they should find a way to work in the title of the movie.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Well, they do that on Game of Thrones, like, half the time, they'll be like, the in the first season, mostly, the actors would like say the name of the episode, just so everyone would be like, what?

• 31:48Nilay Patel?

  No, but that's like.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  Don't you love it, though, when you hear the, you know, the title of the show or the movie, or you're reading a book and you're like, there it is, I found it?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Only when they look directly at the camera. And say.

• 32:01Nilay Patel?

  This song is called Celebration.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Ferg cast.

• 32:05Nilay Patel?

  Celebration.

• 32:09Nilay Patel?

  Fine, fine. All right, wait, wait. So Batman v Superman, what else?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:15Nilay Patel?

  How are they gonna do? Those movies are coming like back to back, right?

• 32:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think they're coming like six months apart because, you know, they want to make some money. They gotta catch up to Marvel. Marvel's like 10 movies ahead of them. And, you know, if they could put out like six movies next year, they'd probably do it.

• 32:29Nilay Patel?

  All right, talk, talk to me about.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I checked Suicide Squad.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Um.

• 32:33Nilay Patel?

  Ben Affleck is also in Suicide Squad.

• 32:37Nilay Patel?

  I just want to point out, by your own reasoning, the numbers should be very similar.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  This is hard. It's hard because I don't want to see another five billion people be the Joker for Halloween. Like, it's not something that needs to happen.

• 32:49Nilay Patel?

  Particularly that Joker.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially, especially.

• 32:52Nilay Patel?

  Juggalo Joker.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. I I'm gonna give it a, I'm gonna give it a six, because also Will Smith.

• 32:59Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but you don't feel maternal towards Will Smith?

• 33:01Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  No.

• 33:03Nilay Patel?

  For the audio listener, I just, I want to try to describe the face that was made. Imagine an angry frown. Like a, like a frown that indicates sadness, but also anger.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  What was that con man movie he was just in?

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Uh, Focus with Margot Robbie.

• 33:20Nilay Patel?

  Oh, that movie is awful.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:21Nilay Patel?

  It could have been great.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Terrible.

• 33:23Nilay Patel?

  It could have been great. Like, the trailer for that movie was like a very entertaining trailer. You're like, I would like to just be in the world this trailer describes. And then the movie itself was like, so you made a shit box Ocean's Eleven, right? That's what you did here? Okay, that's cool.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  All right, talk to me about Deadpool.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Um, Deadpool, so that was, you know, the audience flips out about everything because, you know, there's just so much energy going on.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 04

  But Deadpool, perhaps more than anything, I thought there was like legitimate flipping out about, um.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And people like tearing their hair out was like a Beatles concert?

• 33:58Speaker 04

  So they, they aired the trailer and, um, included in the trailer is that, you know, there was the leaked Deadpool footage?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  Um, so that's in the movie and they put that part in the trailer.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 34:09Speaker 04

  Just as a nod.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  They know that that's why it got made. Um, so the trailer ends and then everybody gives it a standing ovation and starts demanding, they start shouting like, one more time, one more time. And, um, you know, obviously they play the trailer again, like that's how excited we were for Deadpool. I didn't see that for anything else. Um, and, you know, I think it mostly deserved it. It seemed pretty darn funny.

• 34:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, it's like Ryan Reynolds. Do you feel eternal towards Ryan Reynolds? I've checked Ryan Reynolds.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  No, too bad. Bye.

• 34:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Well, Deadpool is done.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  I saw him. He hosted Saturday Night Live when I was 15 and I drove to New York to see him and it was the greatest disappointment of my life, despite the fact that Lady Gaga, Madonna and Scarlett Johansson were all there, but Ryan Reynolds was so bad.

• 34:55Nilay Patel?

  They were, they were, uh, they were on that episode.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  You went to New York to watch SNL and he ruined it for you?

• 35:02Speaker 03

  He was so bad. You should go find his monologue. It like occurs in like a fake rainstorm. So bad.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Wait, I guess the real question is, are there things that Ryan Reynolds has not ruined?

• 35:12Speaker 03

  Um, that one movie definitely maybe.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  Drive.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  With Elizabeth Banks and Isla Fisher. It's pretty good.

• 35:20Nilay Patel?

  Sure, sure. What's the movie where he's a waiter? Oh, uh, wait, it's, it's called Waiting. Yeah.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  LOL.

• 35:28Nilay Patel?

  It's the name of the movie. It's called, and he says in the middle bizarrely in this restaurant. He says, so we're like some kind of suicide squad.

• 35:37Nilay Patel?

  Dead silence. The movie continues. It's very strange. Well, you know what I've noticed about this show so far is that you are the emotional opposite of Sam Sheffer. If I was like, hype check Deadpool, same like, I love it. That's so great. I love jokes are the best. And you're like, it will be bad. So that's, that's, that's interesting. I think there's a reason you two work so well together.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:00Nilay Patel?

  No, it's like, nope.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  When he introduced me on this show, he was like, we have the same haircut. We're the same person. Aggressively trying to deny that. So.

• 36:12Nilay Patel?

  Do you, do you just like, like, like squeeze your eyes and try and grow your hair faster?

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:18Nilay Patel?

  All right. So what else happened? Should we, should we loop back through and talk about Batman and Superman? I feel like we, we owe DC.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:26Nilay Patel?

  Some conversation.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  So DC.

• 36:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's dark. It's so dark.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. You know, Marvel is, they're bright, they're fun, they're approachable. DC is like, oh, we have to be different. Maybe we should do it dark.

• 36:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 04

  And, um, the, you know, we were discussing this at Comic Con and, uh, Brian Bishop. I think the thing he said that surprised him most about Batman versus Superman is that it had a plot. Explaining why Batman was mad at Superman.

• 36:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Um, and I think that kind of says everything about where DC is at right now.

• 36:58Nilay Patel?

  What do you mean?

• 36:59Speaker 04

  I mean, they, they're just kind of, the, their entire universe is going to explode out of Batman's versus Superman. Right? Like Marvel, they made a couple of good movies first. They had Iron Man. Um, I don't remember their other movies. They slowly built up their other movies and then they made.

• 37:16Nilay Patel?

  Captain America.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, right. People love those. And then they made the Avengers and people love the Avengers because they're like, oh my God, I love all these other things. DC is like, we're really far behind. Let's just throw everyone into this thing, right? I mean, how many different, they have Aquaman. I don't know who wants to see Aquaman. They have Wonder Woman.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  I don't know who that is.

• 37:35Nilay Patel?

  Yep.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 37:36Nilay Patel?

  Well, Aquababy of the Woods is the best Aquaman movie. He's a, he's called Drogo as Aquaman.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Oh shit, I didn't know that.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Oh yeah.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, everyone's third favorite rapist on Game of Thrones is Aquaman.

• 37:49Nilay Patel?

  So throw us a number on that one. You know, the actor isn't, it's not actually called Drogo.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  Should I put that on the record so we don't get sued?

• 37:57Nilay Patel?

  No, he's gonna sue us. Reddit commenters are gonna sue us. It's like, we're fine. Wait, number. What's your pitchfork for Aquaman?

• 38:08Speaker 03

  I can't assign a number because I didn't remember he was a person, so.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Here's the problem with DC's tone.

• 38:14Nilay Patel?

  You know what you don't know is that that is actually a part of Pitchfork's ranking system.

• 38:19Speaker 03

  He just don't acknowledge you.

• 38:21Nilay Patel?

  If you're not a person.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Here's the problem with Batman vs Superman.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  Oh god.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  It might be fine on its own, even if it's good, best case scenario is still bad because DC's cinematic universe will be based in like, being the cool dark guy and like, I'm telling you like, dating Judd Nelson, two weeks after the end of Breakfast Club, it's like, oh wait, it turns out that like, you've got reason to be conflicted, but also you're just kind of boring. Like, once you get the cool guy, like, the cool guy doesn't last. It either like, turns into, like, you get bored of it and you go away, or it turns into Fonzie.

• 38:53Nilay Patel?

  Wait, wait.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  What?

• 38:55Nilay Patel?

  I'm just rewinding to the dating Judd Nelson two weeks after the breakfast.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, like, like, in the Breakfast Club, it's like, amazing, but then, two weeks later, you're like, well, this is, this is not fun anymore.

• 39:06Nilay Patel?

  Two weeks, like, two weeks later, Miley Cyrus is like, dude, like, just stop burning your hand with cigarettes.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 39:11Nilay Patel?

  Just, you can stop it now. I get it, yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's the DC universe. It's my prediction for it.

• 39:16Nilay Patel?

  I don't know if that is accurate. I, bizarrely, I feel very high about Batman v Superman.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Well, you're, you're on TV.

• 39:25Nilay Patel?

  Because I want to see Batman punch Superman in the face. For being dumb. Like, that's why Batman should be mad at Superman, right? Like, yes, you're dumb. Like, you're dumb. Please, please leave our planet. Like, take everything about you and like, leave the planet and just go.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  But he can be angsty at Superman all he wants. Superman is like an invulnerable alien.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yes, just please go.

• 39:48Speaker 04

  And incredibly handsome.

• 39:49Nilay Patel?

  Like, no conflict will ever find you. Every story involving you will be boring in some way. That's what Batman should say.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  In depression, he reads.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Can you fly when your head is hung down in shame? Is that like?

• 40:06Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my God, everything about you is always the same. Like, you lose your powers because you definitely have to lose your powers in order for there to be conflict in the story. Oh, my God, I'm so surprised. Like, that's, that is, that's how Batman cuts Superman with a knife.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  With a bat knife.

• 40:20Nilay Patel?

  Also, the trailer is very confusing because at one point Batman is like, running through the desert in like, a bat jacket.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, it looks like, you know.

• 40:28Nilay Patel?

  And he's got goggles over his bat eyes.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  A scene in there or something.

• 40:31Nilay Patel?

  And then there's like, there's like Superman army guys.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  I hope that this is actually like a five hour epic.

• 40:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Nilay Patel?

  But how do they get all these locations they have to go?

• 40:41Speaker 04

  If this is totally sprawling, I'll be into it.

• 40:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, right. It's like, they have to be in Metropolis so that they can.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, is the Oakland to, or no, I'm sorry, Gotham is the Oakland to Metropolis.

• 40:52Nilay Patel?

  They're like next to each other, turns out.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  Really?

• 40:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 40:55Nilay Patel?

  Why, why does Superman live in Oakland?

• 41:00Nilay Patel?

  All right, whatever. So, it starts at the end of Superman.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:04Nilay Patel?

  So, like, already bad, but like, whatever. But it starts at the end there, and then it has to go to Gotham, presumably.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:12Nilay Patel?

  To Wayne Manor.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:13Nilay Patel?

  To a battle in the desert.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:15Nilay Patel?

  Under the sea, where Aquaman lives.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 41:18Nilay Patel?

  Some.

• 41:19Speaker 04

  Wonder Woman shows up.

• 41:21Nilay Patel?

  What? Like, it has to be five hours long, just to get literally under the sea. Like, it has to, how can you establish Aquaman?

• 41:31Speaker 04

  No, I, I have nothing else to say. It sounds like beautiful how absurd this is. I, I mean, I hope they go all out and just are like, well, we, we have to do all of this. Let's just, just throw everything in there.

• 41:45Nilay Patel?

  It's really hard for me to say the words under the sea without doing the accent. Yep, that's, that's where my, anyway, and then Suicide Squad looks like a totally different.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  This is a looks totally different. Yeah, it's dark. Yeah, I will see for both of them. I feel like, um, they're, they're very comic booky in their action and.

• 42:04Speaker 04

  Like their events in a way that Marvel isn't. I mean Marvel is, you know, comic booky in the way that it's kind of goofy and lighthearted. But DC is definitely still taking to those kind of comic book roots, I think.

• 42:16Nilay Patel?

  It's also comic booky in that the majority of it is like basically in black and white, the color palette is just a non-existent.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Which is like not a thing that we really need to see again.

• 42:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  But.

• 42:27Nilay Patel?

  I'm into it. Because it's true. Because we, the, the Crystal and Batman movies are over. Those are the only gritty ones. And the last one ended with like an absurd comic book thing that happened.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:37Nilay Patel?

  The Marvel movies, like, we're done. Like, Iron Man was the closest Marvel came to grittiness. The first Iron Man. That was the closest they came to grittiness and they, now they've left that behind. I don't know. There's a lot of dust in that first Thor movie because it was out in New Mexico.

• 42:53Nilay Patel?

  It's Thor. Like, who is the least gritty comic book person? It's Thor. Yeah, okay. And Superman.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  You just hate Superman so much.

• 43:03Nilay Patel?

  I really, really dislike Superman.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  I've never seen a Superman movie either, so I'm useless as a hype desk person.

• 43:11Nilay Patel?

  But you know of Superman.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  I mean, he does, he does seem really lame. And also like, Batman is like a self-made man. That's like the, the story of America.

• 43:21Nilay Patel?

  No, his parents were rich. He literally inherited a manor.

• 43:26Speaker 03

  Okay, he's a self-made superhero though. Like, he's made himself into a superhero. That's America. It's capitalism. It's father issues. It's everything. We like, don't need Superman.

• 43:37Nilay Patel?

  Batman is more America than Superman. I will say that.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  Superman grew up on like a farm and stuff, a central crypton, didn't he?

• 43:43Nilay Patel?

  We gotta, I'm gonna read this. We're, we're, we're done.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  As like a journalist, we should, we should feel a kinship.

• 43:49Nilay Patel?

  Truly, it's, I do. As a journalist, I feel a kinship to Superman. I also grew up on a farm and, uh, no conflict.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  This is why you don't care about Superman. You've already.

• 44:00Nilay Patel?

  Because you identify with it.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:02Nilay Patel?

  Uh, it's true. I am constantly flying through the air like Jesus.

• 44:07Nilay Patel?

  It's Jesus who flies. That's like the soup.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:10Nilay Patel?

  The core. In the trailer, they're like, you're their only hope. And he's like flying in the air.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:15Nilay Patel?

  It's like, it is very Christ like, which is great. If you're into that sort of thing.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  I mean, Jesus is an alien too.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  What other symbolism can you use?

• 44:23Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  Like, that's, that's the, that's it.

• 44:26Nilay Patel?

  All right. We're gonna read an ad and then we're talking about the iPod, which I think is a great transition from Jesus.

• 44:34Speaker 04

  Let's do it.

• 44:42Nilay Patel?

  I don't know that there, and if long-term listeners of the show know that it is not often that one topic leads seamlessly into another. But I don't know that three things have ever not gone together, like Superman, the iPod, and one about me.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Do you need me to read that?

• 45:08Nilay Patel?

  No, no, no, no, I got it, I got it.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  All right.

• 45:10Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 45:13Nilay Patel?

  Do you need a new mattress?

• 45:18Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna do it. Uh, I'm gonna take a sip of this beer.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  John, I'm so sorry.

• 45:22Nilay Patel?

  No, no, this is great. This is what the, this is what they want. They want engagement. Uh, go to leesa.com right now. I promise. He was crying. All right. Do you need a new mattress? Potato mattress shopping? Then you need to know about this new online mattress company, Leesa. That's L-E-E-S-A. Leesa is like the Tom's shoes for mattresses. The insanely cool Leesa mattress is sold exclusively online, ships compressed to your door for free, and has three unique foam layers for cooling supportive sleep. Leesa gives you 100 nights to try a mattress risk-free. And for every 10 mattresses they sell, they donate one to a shelter. How great is that? So go ahead and grab your smartphone or your laptop or even your tablet. CoolTabletBurnLeesa.com. And go to leesa.com/vergecast. Get 75% off, $75 off your purchase. That's L-E-E-S-A.com/vergecast

• 46:07Nilay Patel?

  to get $75 off your purchase. That's $75 off your mattress at L-E-E-S-A.com/vergecast.

• 46:15Nilay Patel?

  That was not my best.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  Beautiful read.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 46:18Nilay Patel?

  But I didn't completely crack.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:21Nilay Patel?

  And I would like to get some credit for that.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  You get plenty of credit.

• 46:27Nilay Patel?

  All right, let's talk about Apple. The Apple did a bunch of stuff this week.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they started by, well, it's sometime in the past.

• 46:34Nilay Patel?

  Windows is like happening. There's like, there's tech news in this world.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there's a ton of tech news in this world. So, I mean, Windows is happening, but it's like, it's coming, but like they, like the final version seems to be out for insiders.

• 46:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  They have a clever version number for it that has like an inside computer joke.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  I feel like everyone is really pumped about Windows 10.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Super fun.

• 46:55Speaker 04

  There's a lot of excitement. Not been pumped about Windows in a while.

• 46:58Nilay Patel?

  I think it might be good.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  I think it's good.

• 47:01Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I mean, even using the previews and stuff. Yeah, it's like.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  What do you like about it?

• 47:04Speaker 01

  It's buggy, but it's, what I like about it is, this is gonna sound crazy, Cortana. Because like it is a better, just like hit a button, type some stuff and search the stuff you want to search and get to the stuff that you want than anything else.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  And I'm also like, they got, just they got rid of the, they kept the good ideas from Windows 8 and 8.1. And they got rid of all the bad ones, or most of the bad ones. And that's exciting.

• 47:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's coming.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  All right, but we, the, that.

• 47:36Nilay Patel?

  We just got like one step closer.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:39Nilay Patel?

  Wait, Caitlin. Top check Windows 10. This is dangerous territory.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Oh, no. Um, oh, I can't, I can't. It's too controversial. I'm gonna.

• 47:50Nilay Patel?

  That's your job.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:52Nilay Patel?

  That's where you are.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Whoa, wow.

• 47:56Nilay Patel?

  The title, her swagaste is not, is not just handed upon you because you shy from controversy.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  Okay, well, I'm gonna give it a solid 5.6.

• 48:03Nilay Patel?

  There you go.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:04Nilay Patel?

  Why's that?

• 48:06Speaker 03

  I don't know. I haven't, I. I was handed this MacBook by theverge.com.

• 48:12Nilay Patel?

  Oh.

• 48:13Speaker 03

  Which I don't use exclusively.

• 48:16Nilay Patel?

  Were you using Windows before?

• 48:17Speaker 03

  So, no.

• 48:18Nilay Patel?

  So.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  I used Windows for my first three years of college.

• 48:22Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  So, it was fine.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  Maybe, maybe Windows 10 will bring you back.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  Served its purpose.

• 48:27Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. But I think that's how people feel about Windows, right?

• 48:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:31Nilay Patel?

  It's a thing. It's, it's, it's water. It's around you.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:35Nilay Patel?

  It's not like a, I don't know. It's a delicious beer.

• 48:37Speaker 04

  It's not like a great choice that you make. It's just, um.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  A thing that's there.

• 48:41Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but Windows 10 is like the chance.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:43Nilay Patel?

  But anyway, so we're like a little bit tick closer and Cortana is good. I will say I've never seen Verge staffers excited about Windows the way they are excited about Windows 10.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:50Nilay Patel?

  Which I think is fascinating.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I wasn't, I was, it was impossible to be excited about Windows 7 because it was like, you know, rolling back Vista, so whatever. And Windows 8 was like really intriguing and then you started using it and it was like really confusing. And then like, well, but 8.1 will fix it. And it's like, no.

• 49:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  It's not confusing to me anymore, but it's just kinda dumb.

• 49:12Speaker 04

  It was like Microsoft went off and made like a little artsy film for a couple of years.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  And totally alienated its audience.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  It was their Joaquin Phoenix, I'm still here phase, right? Um, okay, so Apple, they, they put out betas for iOS 9 that are available to the public. So you can go play with it. Uh, I don't know what, what to say, but like, they're like, they've, we already talked about it. Uh, they've talked about it. It's there. Don't install it on your main phone or main iPad because it's still buggy.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  I installed it on my iPad mini. It's the original iPad mini.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  And there's literally no difference, except everything is slower. Which I, I probably should have seen coming. That, that's my own fault, for instance. Don't install it on anything very old.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Well, like, like with Cortana, I am most excited about the new search thing.

• 49:57Nilay Patel?

  It feels like you shouldn't, wait, are we talking about Windows? Are we talking about?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  I'm talking about on iOS, the new search screen that's now on the left. Like, I want that to be my primary interface to iOS.

• 50:06Nilay Patel?

  Oh, interesting. I haven't really played with it that much yet. Cause I've heard you say like, old things suck with it. And then Lauren Good wrote a thing for Recode that was like, don't install anything that you depend on.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:17Nilay Patel?

  So now I'm out of things. Like I have no, there are no things for me to put iOS 9 on. Um, where we should talk about the iPod.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  You could put it on the new iPod. You could buy a new iPod and put it on that. They just, the Apple up and announced, uh, new iPod touches and, uh, they basically put, uh, a good camera, eight megapixel camera and the iPhone six's processor.

• 50:40Speaker 04

  No.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:40Speaker 04

  It's a.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So it might not have all the craziness, but it's got, it's got a motion thing. It's got the A8.

• 50:47Speaker 04

  Is the screen better? Cause I feel like the old screen was like weird and yellowish.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  I've only, we, we went out and bought one today and Sean, okay. And did a hands on, which is up on the verge.com. Uh, but I haven't had more than like 45 seconds to be like, oh, this is a pretty gold color.

• 50:59Nilay Patel?

  The screen is usually, it's cheap. Like it's not like expensive.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  And took away the loop lanyard thing, which was dumb in the first place.

• 51:05Nilay Patel?

  No, but it was like playful.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  I like lanyards, but yeah, you're right. It was playful.

• 51:09Nilay Patel?

  You know what really gets me and I know why, but the new Nano.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:13Nilay Patel?

  And the new shuffle are not compatible with Apple music, which is insanity.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  I mean, it's also weird that they're still selling the iPod Nano and shuffle.

• 51:24Nilay Patel?

  The shuffle, I like, understand.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. The shuffle, that makes sense. It's.

• 51:27Nilay Patel?

  It's like, look at this thing. Yeah. Hey.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  But the Nano has always been super weird, at least not, maybe not always, but the most recent version of the Nano was super strange. It has this interface totally unlike anything else that Apple does.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Well, it looks, it's like iOS-esque.

• 51:42Nilay Patel?

  Right. Do you see that?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  It's iOS.

• 51:44Nilay Patel?

  That's it. That's my new theme. It's my new Windows theme. Um, no, did you see that thing in Darren's file? All these like groupers, like, why didn't they update this to make it look like an iOS eight? Um, and the answer is because literally no one works on the iPod team. There's no one left to do it. And it's, that is the most un-apple cynical garbage move of all time.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  What's it gonna do with iPods?

• 52:06Nilay Patel?

  Like Apple's whole thing is like, we're going to cannibalize ourselves. We're going to sell the best products. Tim Cook is going to whisper in his sweet dulcet, southern tones, but you know, we just want to make the world's best products.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. You can't say that the iPod Nano is one of the world's best products right now.

• 52:22Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's, the iPod Nano is a piece of garbage.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  No, Apple likes to make the world's best products and then leave them around for a little.

• 52:28Nilay Patel?

  No, they never do that.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  I feel like they've been doing that more and more.

• 52:31Nilay Patel?

  But they don't, when, for what?

• 52:33Speaker 04

  I mean, they didn't they just stop selling the original iPad mini like a month ago?

• 52:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but that was like they sold that to schools until like the iPod and like it's an I it's still an iPad. Can like run all the stuff and the developers are like begrudgingly still supporting it and like it's an iPad. It's a computer. The iPod Nano is like, my grandma hates me and this is what I received for Christmas. Because she didn't read anything before she bought it like, I don't know. So I'm shout out to grandmas. I don't know. That's but that's like.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  It is. It is actually legitimately insane that you can't sync offline Apple Music to them like.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  I don't know, like how, what, what percentage of consumers are going to use this as a vector to steal music? I mean, really?

• 53:17Nilay Patel?

  Here's the move. You sign up for the free trial. You download all the Taylor Swift. And then you cancel a free trial and then you have.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  And then you never sync your thing again. So I don't get lost and you've got an iPod full of Taylor Swift.

• 53:27Nilay Patel?

  By the way, you know the simple solution that problem is is prompting you to plug in your iPod every week. Which you have to do anyway to sync it.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Force you to plug it in.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Everyone flipped out about the Xbox One. It was like, hey, you can do all this cool stuff while offline. You just have to make sure you connect to the internet every once in a while. And then everyone flipped out. What if my power goes out?

• 53:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but all that was hand wringing garbage of the Xbox. Like that was nonsense like.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Forcing people to plug their thing in once a week just to make sure that it keeps working is pretty garbage.

• 53:56Nilay Patel?

  Not once a week, every three months.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:59Nilay Patel?

  We're gonna wait. Apple's gonna float you three months of Taylor Swift.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, so if you have Apple Music on your sync to your iPod, then you have to plug it in once a month. That I get that I'd be fine with that.

• 54:09Nilay Patel?

  Right. Like that's a pretty simple demand.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:12Nilay Patel?

  But like they just didn't solve it.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  You know what that would require is doing any development work whatsoever on the iPod Nano OS.

• 54:18Nilay Patel?

  Type check iPods.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Hmm. I'm gonna give them a seven.

• 54:22Nilay Patel?

  Wow.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Okay, Apple Music is like not that thrilling to me anyway. Like you can't. You can't listen to the song that Taylor Swift wrote about Jake Gyllenhaal not coming to her birthday party. Why do I need it?

• 54:35Speaker 04

  Root for in that battle as as a Jake.

• 54:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, because you're maternal for Jake, but you're like you're a swift swift hype beast.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  No, I have a very complicated relationship with Taylor Swift.

• 54:46Speaker 04

  You went to a concert?

• 54:47Speaker 03

  I did go to a concert. It was amazing, but so upsetting on like a really deep depressing level also.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  You have the most complex emotions of anybody at The Verge.

• 54:58Nilay Patel?

  Why aren't you, this whole show, should you just, you be, you should be talking the whole time? All right, wait, wait, so.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  About neuroses? That's what my Twitter is for.

• 55:08Nilay Patel?

  That's a great, again, okay, so, Taylor Swift and Jake Gyllenhaal, go walk us through a birthday party experience.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Okay, so Taylor Swift and Jake Gyllenhaal dated for about three months at the end of 2010, I believe. Um, and she went to Thanksgiving at Maggie Gyllenhaal's house and wrote a song about it, which is called All Too Well. You should listen to it. It's great.

• 55:28Nilay Patel?

  But you can't on Apple Music.

• 55:29Speaker 03

  You can listen to that one because it's on Red. But then he broke up with her by just not showing up at her birthday party at all. Or like ever, he ghosted her pretty much. And she wrote a song about it called The Moment I Knew, but it's really bad and embarrassing. And like makes her sound like a total whiny idiot, which is too bad because like he really was a jerk. But anyway, you can't listen to that song on Apple Music.

• 55:56Nilay Patel?

  Where is that song located?

• 55:57Speaker 03

  You can listen to it on YouTube.

• 55:59Nilay Patel?

  Right, so this is like a B-side. It's a rarity.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you can't listen to that and you can't listen to the 1989 bonus tracks.

• 56:05Nilay Patel?

  I got it. Do you know who ghosted me this week or last week?

• 56:08Speaker 03

  No.

• 56:09Nilay Patel?

  Alexis Ohanian. Just hard ghosted me. I was like, hey, what's up with Reddit?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Is that a transition?

• 56:17Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna write a song. You know, while we were on The Vergecast, Reddit posted their new insane content policy.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so the, the plan is all the horrible, evil, uh, well, all the really terrible subreddits, all the like vicious subreddits get to stay. You just have to log in to see them. Is that the gist of it?

• 56:40Nilay Patel?

  I think that's the gist of it. Person who has at, never mind. But this happened during The Vergecast, so we're, we're learning live and you're gonna listen to this on the podcast like five days from now and you're like, guys, come on, you should know this by now. And it's like, well, you know.

• 56:55Nilay Patel?

  So.

• 56:57Nilay Patel?

  Right, so here's, here's a, I'm gonna quote from the new rules.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 57:01Nilay Patel?

  This is what you have to log in, I see it. Another type of content that is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it, is the content that violates a common sense of decency. This classification will require a login. And generate no revenue for Reddit. It's like, I don't know, man, I have, I have many feelings about it. But the main one is that they are just constantly recapitulating like 200 years of American First Amendment history.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:28Nilay Patel?

  Like, they can't, they're trying really hard to be like, we don't want bad stuff. But that's always changing, so we're not gonna define bad stuff. And that's their whole, like, game.

• 57:38Speaker 04

  I mean, they're, they're afraid of their community. Is that what's happening?

• 57:42Nilay Patel?

  No, I think this is them saying they're not afraid of their community.

• 57:44Speaker 04

  But they just gave the community what they wanted, didn't they? They're like, oh, yeah, the bad stuff, it can mostly stay. I mean, who isn't logged into Reddit? If you're browsing Reddit.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Well, they're trying, they're basically like, they're making two classes of Reddit. There's like, the mainstream Reddit, and then there's the subreddit.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  There's the 4chan Reddit, there's like, they'll, they'll basically like, you know what? You're disgusting, you're, you're, we're not gonna put ads on your pages and we're gonna put you behind a login. So you have to create an account to see it.

• 58:13Nilay Patel?

  Right, but they've like, hard banned anything that harasses, bullies, or abuses an individual group of people.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:19Nilay Patel?

  Which is like, that's a big one.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's important.

• 58:22Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I don't know, it's, I don't know, I think Reddit has, through this process, they have, they've harmed themselves very deeply.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  So do you think it's over? You think this is it? We're done? Hooray, no, we're all finished?

• 58:35Nilay Patel?

  Never, the internet has a short, short memory.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, Huffman says, uh, this is what we will try. And if the hateful users continue to spill out into the mainstream Reddit, we will try more aggressive approaches. Creative expression is important to us. But it's more important to us that we, that we at Reddit be true to our mission.

• 58:51Nilay Patel?

  I've checked Reddit.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  Three point eight.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, the only thing you need Reddit for is looking for Game of Thrones news. That's all you need for.

• 59:04Nilay Patel?

  What did you give a ten to Batman v Superman?

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was the ten.

• 59:09Nilay Patel?

  This is gonna be one of the best comment threads. Like just listing the scores that you gave.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  She never gave anything a seven.

• 59:19Nilay Patel?

  She did, just gave.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  The iPods a seven.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Oh damn.

• 59:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, World of no sevens. I've checked the iPods. Do you know this game? Have I played this game with you? This is a game I stole from Locker, our editorial director at Fox. You can't, one to ten, but no seven, because seven is the safest one.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  Six, six point six. We'll do that. It's close.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Is that a fun game usually?

• 59:47Nilay Patel?

  Cause you can't pick a number that's close to seven, right? You usually have to pick an integer. So if you like. Cause otherwise you would just be like six point nine, right? And be like, haha, that was hilarious, right?

• 59:59Nilay Patel?

  So you have to pick six or eight.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 1:00:02Nilay Patel?

  Which one?

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  That would be fun to play with people.

• 1:00:07Nilay Patel?

  Well, this episode of the Vergecast. Mattress company. Some sort of accounting software. They're never coming back.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  I feel like there should be something to say about Reddit, but there's so much that I don't even know where to start.

• 1:00:20Nilay Patel?

  Oh, there's an endless amount to say about Reddit. We've been doing like we've.

• 1:00:26Nilay Patel?

  I mean, this, it's hard. I think the reason I'm like stumbling to say what I'm thinking is like, we just did this thing with our comments. But what happened with that was now our forums are great and the commenters, when we turn them on are much better behaved. And I feel great about our community right now because the, the, the people that are choosing to participate with us are doing great stuff. And it's fun and lively. And Reddit can't just turn it off that way. They can't, they can't redirect their community in the way that we were able to.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Well, they kind of did. They turned off some sections.

• 1:00:58Nilay Patel?

  I don't know. The, the, just the, the dynamic of what Reddit is and how it's supposed to make money. There aren't enough people in charge of making Reddit stuff. Right? They're utterly dependent on this community of people, unpaid labor to make Reddit every day.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  But that's been working well, hasn't it?

• 1:01:16Nilay Patel?

  No, not to monetize, but. What is working well, right? Like what does that mean to you? And I think that that dynamic is just really dangerous and bad. That's like, that's my big thought about Reddit. Like, they're founded on basically free labor. And when they want to assert control over people volunteering, it's really tough unless they believe in you.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Right, and that you have to keep that belief and you cannot do anything that, you have to be really careful if you do anything that might harm it. Like, you know, not talk to your moderators and your most active users when you make big changes.

• 1:01:50Nilay Patel?

  Like, we don't have these questions about like, I don't know, Habitat for Humanity, right? It's just like, there's like, what's in an organization that like relies on people volunteering to make things every day? Right? And like, people believe in that mission and like, have it like, they have rules, but people like, believe in the rules.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:07Nilay Patel?

  You can think of it like a church, like literally any volunteer, community-based group. Like, there are rules and there are leaders and you understand them. Reddit's leaders are not, they do not have the same incentive structure as Reddit's people, right? Like, their job is to make money and have a business, not to like, build a society of the internet where all of our brains are in vats and we only communicate to each other with upvotes and downvotes. Reddit is the matrix, is what I'm saying.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:02:34Nilay Patel?

  That's what, I think that's what like the broader Reddit community wants Reddit to be the matrix.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just, I'm just saying like, mm, yep, mm, yeah, because like, I fundamentally agree with you, but I also fundamentally, there's like, there's been so much shit.

• 1:02:44Nilay Patel?

  You fundamentally agreed to was me saying Reddit is the matrix.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  No, the stuff you say, like, there's like, so much like, to like, to say anything about Reddit. There's been like, so many like, unfurlings and Ellen Pao and they fired Victoria Taylor and then there were the hate groups and then there was the, the celeb stuff before that. Like, there's like, there's no way for me to explicate anything about Reddit that isn't immediately, and obviously like, like, people just assume what I think about all those disparate things that happened before it. And it's like, it's like, too big for me to just say, oh, Reddit sucks, or, oh, blah, blah, blah. Like, fundamentally, I think, fundamentally, it's the matrix.

• 1:03:21Speaker 04

  I mean, even now, people are complaining about multiple different things. There's the moderation issue and then there's the free speech issue, which, you know, I think to some extent are separate. And I think. You know, some Reddit is, the people are right to be angry about, you know, I totally understand when Reddit changes how moderation works and when it changes how AMAs work, which is one of the top areas on the site. There's a reason to be upset about that. But the whole free speech thing, you know, I don't see why Reddit shouldn't just take a hard stance and crack down on that. I mean, it seems like very clear cut from a moral standpoint.

• 1:03:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, the free speech thing is really dumb. It's like, just the dumbest thing. It is the dumbest critique that is leveled at Reddit. It's the dumbest critique that's leveled at us. It's the, it's, these are companies, they're platforms.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Right. But if Reddit as a company wants to build it into their charter that they are dedicated to some sort of more radical free speech proposition and not just say, no, you know what, it's the internet, go, go talk elsewhere. We don't need you to have you here in our house or in our basement or whatever. Put it in the charter. Don't like eventually work your way towards that, like by referencing stuff that was said in a little, you know, Reddit comment, you know, and then like watch it evolve. We did that thing about was Reddit always about free speech. We'd like track the evolution of what they

• 1:04:42Nilay Patel?

  Reddit launched that comment. The most interesting thing that I learned from that piece. It's wild. All right. All right. It's all over. Yeah. All right. Do you know how to do Sam's list of engagements or should I do it?

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Um, I do not know Sam's list of engagements.

• 1:04:56Nilay Patel?

  Pick, pick three social networks that the Verge is on and tell people to follow.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  Oh, cool. Okay. So we're on Twitter at Verge and Snapchat, The Real Verge and Tumblr, theverge.tumblr.com.

• 1:05:07Speaker 04

  Caitlin runs our Tumblr. I don't know if that's obvious to everyone.

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  Caitlin runs our Tumblr and talks about Channing Tatum.

• 1:05:13Nilay Patel?

  Do you feel eternal towards Channing Tatum?

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  No. Okay. But I do like him a lot because he wants to show, step up to his grandkids and be like, that's where I found them with your grandma. So cute.

• 1:05:29Nilay Patel?

  The Verge is hiring, is the next note on my thing, which is true. We are hiring all sorts of people. So we're hiring lots of video people in New York. Please let us know. Car reporters, Chris Sigler is hiring car reporters at Maniac. We're hiring a junior reporter in Silicon Valley, and we're hiring a staff photographer, which just makes me very excited. So that's theverge.com/jobs. You can find us on iTunes, itunes.com/verge. I don't know how you want to rate this episode. Maybe just, maybe just hold back. Actually, no, hit it, I figured out what we should do. Go to iTunes, give us the five stars, and then hype check something in the style of Caitlin Tiffany.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Nilay Patel?

  No, I don't mean hype check Caitlin. I mean, in the style of Caitlin. Offered a very precise number, and then a bleak and depressing reaction.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  This is not going to go well.

• 1:06:18Nilay Patel?

  We have two other shows that you should listen to. Verge ESP with Emily and Liz, which is absolutely great, and What's Up with Chris Plant, which is also absolutely great. All at the itunes.com/verge. Caitlin, I promised people your Twitter handle. What's your Twitter handle?

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Oh, it's K underscore Tiffany18.

• 1:06:38Nilay Patel?

  There you go. Nice. I'm telling you, one of my favorite Twitter experiences at The Verge. Dieter is back on, I'm reckless. Jake?

• 1:06:44Speaker 04

  Jake underscore K.

• 1:06:46Nilay Patel?

  Yep. My man. Jake, it's shocking that you've never been on the show before. You should be back.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  Gladly. You know, I'm right upstairs.

• 1:06:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, the two of you. We're just gonna have a show with the two of you. It's great. Anyway, that was it. That was Vergecast. Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you for surviving this with us. Thank you for waiting in line at Comic Con with Jake. Thank you for going to Pluto. Thank you, outer space. Goodbye.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Rock and roll.