LL Cool J: Four Decades of Relevance

What does it actually take to stay relevant for four decades without losing your soul? Before he was a hip-hop icon, LL Cool J was just a kid riding mini bikes and dreaming big. Decades later, he joins Trevor and Eugene to reflect on the wild journey—sharing unforgettable encounters with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, the family values that kept him grounded, and why true reinvention requires dropping your ego. Plus, LL breaks down why intuition is God’s voice, why cynicism is just cowardice in disguise, and how he turned his grandfather’s belief into his legendary debut album, Radio.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Trevor Noah?

  The name Ladies Love Cool James.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Man, that was just wishful thinking, man. I just wanted them to love me, bro.

• 0:07Trevor Noah?

  I told you. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but you know, that was the vibe. That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones, yeah. I mean, think about about a gray cigar. You look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way.

• 0:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  The world would not be new, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place.

• 0:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love. And you're not afraid to say it is the most fearless and courageous thing, right?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  You know, because like my thing was I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you.

• 0:50Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 0:57Trevor Noah?

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• 1:32Speaker 02

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• 2:02Trevor Noah?

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• 2:45Trevor Noah?

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• 3:20Trevor Noah?

  Man, there are a few people that have more of an illustrious career than you.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 3:24Trevor Noah?

  You know what's actually interesting is it actually makes it a little intimidating because you as a human being are interesting enough. You know what I'm saying?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Thank you for that. Okay.

• 3:33Trevor Noah?

  Like, that's that's like the biggest reason I'd want to hang out with you and we want to hang with you and talk to you and, you know, just like figure out how you think, why you think, get inspired, just break things down together. But the the the body of work that comes with it, you're like, man, do not take for granted. It's like, one of the only artists to have like back-to-back multi-platinum selling albums. You know, like you have somebody who has defined a genre. That that to me still like blows my mind and we'll talk about, but like defined.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:05Trevor Noah?

  A genre, you know what I mean?

• 4:07Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:07Trevor Noah?

  Not even a pioneer, not like, oh, yeah, no, no, no, define something. And then has gone on to redefine every single element of what they do, where they do it, how they do it.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 4:18Trevor Noah?

  He's just like, damn.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:20Trevor Noah?

  LL Cool J.

• 4:21Speaker 03

  The other thing that he's defined very well, you defined it, eh? Defined it was age.

• 4:26Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  You were like, that thing is not coming to my house.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Stay away, please. In the window with the sniper rifle, like, get back. Nah, nah.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yo, you know what? We do the best we can, right? You know what I mean? Just stay in the gym and hope for the, fingers crossed, bro. That's all we could do, right?

• 4:48Speaker 03

  You've you've just you've just beat that guy.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Well, from your mouth to God's ears.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  No, 100%. So I was thinking before we came here, I was like, okay. You know, like if someone is in the army, they become a general.

• 5:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  You have to call them general forever.

• 5:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  If they're a president, they're still president forever. So with you, is it LL Cool J? Or is it cool? Or is it J? Or is it LL? So, and and actually, who gets to call you Todd?

• 5:15Trevor Noah?

  There we go.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  That's funny. So, um, you know, actually, you know, whenever I'm on set or, you know, just in like around situations like this, I like people to call me Todd. Because I feel sometimes I feel like when I know people and if they call me LL, I feel like, you know, like I'm pulling out my Wikipedia for them or something. It's like, you know, so Todd is like, like, like if we're at a conference or we're hanging out, I prefer you call me Todd.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Right? Um, I don't really, honestly, I don't really take.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  I take the art seriously, but I don't really look at accolades and I don't walk around with those stripes like that. Like, I don't think about that. I don't spend my life thinking about that. I'm thinking about what we could do great, what we can, where we can have some fun, what we can create, you know, where we could create some magic. You know, what we're doing wrong that we can get better at. You know what I mean?

• 6:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I think about things that way. I don't really, just like you, you're very successful. You know, you just don't go around thinking about your accomplishments. You think about what's next and what you could do, at least for me.

• 6:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I but I think, I love Eugene's question because there are certain names that that become more than just how you refer to the person. They become an idea.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:26Trevor Noah?

  Do you get what I'm saying?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 6:28Trevor Noah?

  And then that that that name comes with like a familiarity. It comes with an idea behind it. So it's, it says a lot about you as a person that you go on set, at a conference, in a space where I'm with familiar people or even like intimate people. I prefer Todd because I want them to not think of my Wikipedia. You see, that already puts you in a in a in a completely different world. Because most people work their entire lives to make sure that everyone in their lives always knows about their work. And you're trying to do the opposite.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you know, and it goes back, I guess, out of the three, I would want it to be cool. You know what I'm saying? You know, I would want it to be that, you know, for the right reasons. You know what I'm saying? Um, but, you know, you know, there comes a time when you gotta let your accomplishments speak for themselves. So, so, you know, like even like with my music, when I was making music consistently, I would say the most outlandish, most cocky, most arrogant thing you could think of on the song. But when we press stop on a song or when we, you know, when we stop it, it stays on the song. You know what I mean? Because.

• 7:38Trevor Noah?

  You didn't let that hype or that idea follow you beyond the recording?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Because it's, um, you know, arrogance is a little, it can be boring. Not necessarily for the people watching, but for the arrogant person. Because they're just running around, just not learning anything, not seeing anything, not really having any true, authentic experiences because they're so arrogant that their their their windows are shut. They're not letting, the curtains are drawn. They're not letting no sunshine in, they're not letting any light in.

• 8:11Trevor Noah?

  I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. But that's that's amazing. Arrogance can be boring. I genuinely never heard anyone say that.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  And to the person who's arrogant.

• 8:17Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, that's what I mean. Arrogance can be boring because you were walking around thinking you figured it out so you don't open yourself up to anything that might come in.

• 8:26Trevor Noah?

  When I, when I was trying to think about like how we even like contextualize you as a human being. So many people know you. Some people know you through only one facet of your life.

• 8:39Trevor Noah?

  I found myself wondering, I was like, for somebody who has been like famous, famous from the age of what, 15, 16?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, 16.

• 8:45Trevor Noah?

  16 years old, like, I mean, famous, famous.

• 8:50Trevor Noah?

  If you were in a world where nobody knew you.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Cape Verde.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  No one, no one knows anyone.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Where, where, where?

• 9:01Trevor Noah?

  Cape Verde, that's hilarious.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  What, what, Cape Verde? Nah, they know you in Cape. I'm, I'm.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  No, Cape Verde.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Where's Cape Verde?

• 9:09Speaker 03

  It's uh, seven islands off the coast of Africa and Portugal.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  I'm going.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Right there.

• 9:15Trevor Noah?

  We can bet money they know him.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Nah, nah, they do. Because he's done too much.

• 9:18Trevor Noah?

  They do.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Because it's like, okay, they'll know him from a movie.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I, I actually, you know, I'm okay with that. There's just room to grow, actually, you know?

• 9:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but. How would you introduce yourself in that world? Like, how would you give somebody a quick introduction into who you are and how you became that way?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  If I.

• 9:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like when you think of your life, when you go like, oh, this is what, because most people would put it down to your rap career. You know, some people would put it down to your formative life experiences. Some people might put it down to your success. But when you think of your life, where do you look back and go to like, oh, man, that moment there? That's the beginning of this human being that you all meet today.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think at the end of the day, it's the software that we're programmed, right? We, we are all biological hardware. Our mother gives birth to us and we are biological hardware. And then the, how we're programmed through our upbringing is when the software and the programs are uploaded, right? And unfortunately, some of us get spammed out early. Some of us get viruses.

• 10:17Trevor Noah?

  Junk mail.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  It get nasty work. It give you some nasty work in that programming trap. You know what I mean? But uh, it's that programming. And so, the first programming I got from my grandmother and my mother was, if a task is once begun, never leave it till it's done. Be thy labor, great or small, do it well or not at all. And so, from day one, I had been thinking about things in that context, you know? I never, um, you know, I just, I'm a big believer that you can make your dreams a reality, you know? I, I sincerely believe that and I don't, I, you know, I consistently look to conquer myself. You know what I mean?

• 10:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  You know?

• 10:57Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I know, I know exactly what you mean.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:00Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's a fascinating way to look at it, because I, you know what I, what I, what I love about anyone who tells a story? I like that you say about their software developer, their mom or their dad or whoever it was who like programmed them. It's, it always seems to me like the best programmers are the people in our lives who know how to give us the correct information for us, not for anyone.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 11:21Trevor Noah?

  Because what you just said is powerful, but it seemed like it, it really worked for you.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  It, that is, you know what? You are, that's a very, very astute, that's a real sharp insight. Because everything don't work for everybody, right?

• 11:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Um, for me, I just happened to be a little kid who liked hanging around their grandparents and actually listened to their parents. Listen to their mother, listen to what my grand, I actually listened to them. I, I thought what they were saying made sense.

• 11:52Trevor Noah?

  You're a unique kid.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Which is really crazy. The only time I didn't listen is, is when it was time when my mother, my grandmother said to me, you either, because I had made my first song.

• 12:02Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  And uh, my grandmother said, you either go to school or you gotta get out. And that's, or you what?

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Or you put your shirt on.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  First of all.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  You got jewelry on, put a shirt on.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, grandma definitely wanted me to put my shirt on.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  You did?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And whatever you do, don't pierce your nipples.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Whatever you do, please. Again, don't ever pierce your nipples again.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that was the thing, right? It's like, that, that was the only moment, you know, that was the only moment when I was like,

• 12:42Speaker 01

  nah, I gotta do this. And I went after my dream, but other than that, I always listened. So, you know, it's uh, choices are deep. Choices are deep, you know, you um, I mean, what you guys have accomplished, you, you know, you globally. You, you know, you went, came from your country and came all the way around the world and you came to America, conquered America. Like, that's a big deal, but that had to start somewhere. That had to start somewhere, like that, that spirit, that determination, because you had to scrap, you know, get, make your way out of your country. Go through that whole process and then arrive here and you're in the corner of a room again and work your way back to the center. Then go to the next floor and you're in the corner of the room again. You gotta work your way back to the center.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  So that's pretty, so you get it, that journey. It's the, the thing is, the question is, the question is,

• 13:35Speaker 01

  can you deal with difficulty and friction, right? Like, it's like, I always tell people, in order to really be successful, especially in the arts.

• 13:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Um, and you have to have rhino skin and a baby's heart.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:52Trevor Noah?

  That's beautiful. Rhino skin and a baby's heart.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  You know, I find, I, I find it, I can always tell people who were raised by females, who were raised by mothers, grandmothers, aunts.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Women who raise you will always instill in you some hon, level of honesty that you will never get out of a, out of a friend or out of a male.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  You know what, though? My grandfather was there for me.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I had a man in my life as well as women. I had balance. But the thing is, what the honesty thing you're talking about is true. It's like, you know, people need to tell you, you know, what it is. Like, my grandmother would always say to me, like, if, if they felt, like, my grandfather would be like, oh, you're swaggering, you, you shoulder, you're swaggering, right? And I'd be, you know, I'd be a little kid, what are you gonna do when you're sixteen? You're swaggering, right? And then my grandmother would be like, you know, walk around here like your little law of thought or I and all like, you know, you think your little law of thought or I. You know, it's like, I had a very wild, because my grandfather.

• 14:47Trevor Noah?

  He was a jazz musician, wasn't he?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  He was a jazz musician and he came from Barbados.

• 14:50Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he came from Barbados. So, yeah, so, so I had a Caribbean household with a southern American, African American household.

• 14:59Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  So, that, that kinda, it, it was a different type of upbringing.

• 15:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, that's completely different. That, that island vibe, like the, the way like Barbados, you know, my friends from Barbados, Trinidad, etc. It's just like a different relationship, especially intergenerational, I find.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:15Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? I, I, like, like, depending on where you're from in the world, some cultures, I find, the relationship between generations is a lot more strict and closed off.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:26Trevor Noah?

  And then with some island cultures, it's a lot more like integrated and inclusive. It's people spending more time across generations together.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 15:35Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yes, so I'm, you know, eight years old and I'm with my grandparents hanging out while they're having company.

• 15:41Trevor Noah?

  There you go, alright, alright.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? So I'm sitting around hearing, like, you know, my grandfather's sitting there with the bourbon and the peanuts.

• 15:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  You know, and it's just, you know, it's.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Swaggering.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Swaggering, you know? They can knock the steam out you and all that, you know?

• 15:57Trevor Noah?

  What, what kind of kid were you like at that, were, were you a talkative kid? Were you a, you know, because, because I don't know if I'm, I'm reading this right. You know, I've met you a handful of times, you know, we've, we've met each other at the Grammys, where you've been very kind to me and like, you know, just like, I've always seen you as like a, it's weird to say this, but like, there's people I look at who are like big brothers in the roles that I've been lucky enough to occupy. Does that make sense?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  It does.

• 16:19Trevor Noah?

  You know, so, so in many ways, like, John Oliver was always like a big brother in, in TV for me, because it was like, he was the other foreign guy who came and did this thing.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 16:29Trevor Noah?

  And then he like, looked upon me like, in, in like a really loving way, which I always appreciated. You did the same thing for me with the Grammys, like every time I would see you there, yeah, man, this guy would, because like the Grammys is, yo, man, it's.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  It's a big lift.

• 16:40Trevor Noah?

  Woo!

• 16:41Speaker 01

  It's a heavy lift.

• 16:42Trevor Noah?

  Hmm, think about it, you, if you, if you mess up, you are screwing up, forget yourself. There's that part already. You're an idiot, you're a loser, you've messed up everything, right? That's you.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:52Trevor Noah?

  But think of what the night means to everybody else.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:55Trevor Noah?

  If you, if you, yeah, if you screw up the night, if, then you become the thing that people remember on a night when all they wanted to remember was their moment and their accomplishment. So, the weirdest thing about it is, you're trying to make the night not about you, but you have to facilitate the night. So all of that is on you. You're doing this thing. It, it, you know, you, you're trying to get into it. The room is filled with every luminary you can imagine.

• 17:24Trevor Noah?

  So you're starstruck and you're in awe and you take, this is something a lot of people take for granted. I didn't realize this. Many of the people you look up to that you think know each other have never met.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 17:34Trevor Noah?

  You'll be shocked at how many A-list actors, uh, greatest musicians or meet for the first time at some of these events.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  No way.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 17:44Trevor Noah?

  You'll be shocked. So, everything is happening in this room, everything is happening in the, like, the front of the world. And then you get this man who'll just come up to you, give me a big bear hug and he's like, you got this, man.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:56Trevor Noah?

  He was like, yo, just do it. But he just like, and.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me.

• 17:59Trevor Noah?

  Yes. But then the other thing you gave me, maybe I'm totally wrong in saying this, like, you seem like the most outgoing and yet shy person I know.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you're not wrong. I think that's, I think you're not wrong. I'm like, um, I'm an introvert, you know what I'm saying?

• 18:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, okay, that's what I'm picking up.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I'm an introvert, you know what I'm saying? So I'm, I love people and, you know, I'm comfortable around people, but, you know, you know, I'm probably even more comfortable in a room with two thousand books and a chair, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean?

• 18:31Trevor Noah?

  That's like, the out, the outside is not what recharges you.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  No, yeah, not at all.

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But I don't mind it. Like, I love people, I'm vibing, everything's good, it's good energy, but you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will disappear, like, where'd he go? Yeah, I, there is a where'd he go factor. It's definitely a where'd he go factor with me. Where is he?

• 18:53Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man. That's the longevity, that's why he's young.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Dundee records, man.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Sounds very familiar.

• 19:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we just.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Are you like that?

• 19:01Speaker 03

  We're like that.

• 19:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we're, we're, we're completely like that.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 19:04Trevor Noah?

  We are one hundred percent like that.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 19:07Trevor Noah?

  So you, you can, maybe that's what it is. I can pick it up in somebody else where I go, this person is not necessarily needing me or anyone to engage with them. They're cordial, they're interested, they're curious, they will engage, they're warm. However, they do not need to fill space with noise.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  There you go, there you go.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. They're comfortable in silence as well.

• 19:31Trevor Noah?

  You know those people who sit at a table with you and then just feel like because there's silence, they have to be like, so, huh?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:41Trevor Noah?

  LL.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:42Trevor Noah?

  LL.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44Trevor Noah?

  Do they still love him?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah, oh, boy, here we go.

• 19:50Trevor Noah?

  Why you looking at me like that?

• 19:53Speaker 03

  Because for a moment there, I believed that you were that guy.

• 19:55Trevor Noah?

  You know, but you know, I was like, yeah, I believe it. You know those people?

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know them.

• 19:59Trevor Noah?

  And I understand it.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 20:00Trevor Noah?

  Because some people, they, they, they made uncomfortable by it, but I think it comes, it also comes partially with like being a watcher.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Well, you know.

• 20:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  I think, I think the world is. I think, yeah, you gotta know yourself, but the world is really an interesting place and people are very interesting. People are very interesting. I mean, you could just watch somebody, a lady walking with a bike with a coffee and like they just, yo, if you just watch people, a dude walking with a cell phone. I was watching people when I came over here today.

• 20:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Dude walking with a cell phone. He looks so suspicious and like, I'm like, what is he going to, a secret agent or something?

• 20:34Speaker 03

  He's watching joggers as well. Joggers are very weird.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Unbelievable.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, everyone jogs differently for a different purpose, at a different speed.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Some of them look like they need to jog. Some of them look like they've been jogging for a while. Some of them look like they shouldn't be jogging at all.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I seen one dude walking, he looked like he was so uncomfortable with hot outside. I said, look at him. I said, he's so uncomfortable. He looked like he's under duress right now.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  I was like, yo, man, my man looking, yo, my man is hurting right now. Like, I was, yeah, yeah, I was at the window.

• 21:08Speaker 03

  I like watching people.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, no question. No question.

• 21:11Trevor Noah?

  You know what I think of in moments like that? You know, in, in all of psychology, in all of self-help, in all these worlds, they'll always say to you, hey, don't worry about what's happening or what people think. No one cares. No one's looking at you. And then this person's like, yeah, and then this person goes outside for a walk. And not only is someone looking at them, but someone looking at them is LL Cool J.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yo, you never know who's watching. Yo, that is facts. You never know who's watching.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yo, that is the craziest part. Yo, that's, yo, that is so, you're so right about that.

• 21:51Trevor Noah?

  That's the thing.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yo, you know how crazy that is?

• 21:53Trevor Noah?

  Just think about it for a moment.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Just, I'm just in my car like, look at him, look at him. He's down, I'm like, look at him. Look at him. You know what I mean?

• 22:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Like, I seen this, this, this woman backing up from this guy, like, and I could tell she was like getting him to do something he didn't wanna do and it's, you know, he was.

• 22:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you really, no, you're like, you're a full-on observer. Yeah, people watching is amazing.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  It's peeping it.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  People watching is amazing.

• 22:17Trevor Noah?

  But that, okay, that explains a lot of like your music then, you know? One, one of the mistakes I've seen a lot of people make, and maybe I'm being presumptive in assuming that this is a mistake, two things I've noticed. One, this applies to you and I think to a lot of hip-hop artists in general. There's, there's an obsession on longevity in a way that I don't see applied to other genres. I, I, that's the first thing and I,

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:42Trevor Noah?

  I found myself wondering like why that is. It, it, let, let me explain, like, um, so let's say there's been somebody who's been in rock. And they've been playing rock music since they were thirty years old. We meet, or twenty even, we meet them when they're like sixty. Only when they get into the latter years, I mean, the real latter years, will people be like the staying power of Mick Jagger and the guy's longevity and the Beatles and Paul McCartney, et cetera, right? Yeah, exactly. But I've found like with hip-hop artists, at forty-something already, people are like, man, your longevity, your staying power, it's, wow, you've, I've, I've always wondered, what, what do you think that's about?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think the reality is that the difference is that like,

• 23:24Speaker 01

  it's kinda like being around the founding fathers of a country, you know, it's like, if, if, if you, you're like born when George Washington was born and sixty years later, you'd be like, wow, America's been here for a while, you know, we've been here, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, okay, so it's a new genre. I think because the genre itself is so young, it's only fifty-some years old itself as a genre. So, so I think people,

• 23:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I've never thought of it that way.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  The people kinda, that has a lot to do with it. And also, we've never went through the cycle. See, a lot of jazz, rock and roll, they've went through the cycle of seeing artists be young and grow older in the music, within it.

• 24:04Trevor Noah?

  Whereas with hip-hop, this is the first time.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the first time that this is happening, so it's new for everybody.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  George Washington is still alive.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, in that, yes, exactly. Though, in that sense, yes. Or, or you name the, the, the ancient person or person in history.

• 24:19Trevor Noah?

  I've never thought of that. I've never thought of that, yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  So you're walking around and it's like, oh, there's Grandmaster Flash, oh, there's DJ Cool Hurt. Oh, you know, there's the Feelless Four, oh, there's Run DMC, oh, there's LL Cool J. It's like, we here, there's Fab Five Freddy, we here. You see what I'm saying? So it, it's a little different, I think, because of that. Now, some people kinda obsess over like, appropriate age to make hip-hop and all that, but I think the majority of time when you hear people obsessing over that, that's just fear talking.

• 24:57Trevor Noah?

  In what, in what way?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I, I, I think that they just fearful that they won't be able to do something impactful, so they start calling sour grapes on the idea of making something hot at a certain age.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  It's like, no, you just got a challenge in front of you. It's possible. You just got a challenge. Just own it. Just own it. Don't say that it's not appropriate

• 25:24Speaker 01

  to be hot at a certain age now because you really just afraid you can't do it anymore. Because your fans are still around.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  You still have fans. Your fans didn't, they didn't vaporize. They didn't evaporate. They didn't disappear. So you can still make something for your fans. Now, if you're, if you, you know, are trying to make, you know,

• 25:48Speaker 01

  whatever you wanna make, but if you're trying to appeal to eleven-year-olds, you might have a problem. But, but even then,

• 25:56Speaker 01

  you could put a Michael Jackson video on right now and a little kid will walk by and go, zzz.

• 26:01Trevor Noah?

  It's funny you say that. This is the biggest argument I've been having with my friends recently.

• 26:05Speaker 03

  About eleven-year-olds?

• 26:06Trevor Noah?

  Don't do that. But second of all.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, this, this guy here, he got, he got, yeah, he's just, yeah. No, we, there was no argument, bro.

• 26:15Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  I, I'll jump in on that. There was no argument. As a matter of fact, there was guns being loaded.

• 26:24Trevor Noah?

  So, so you know what, you know what it is? So after, you know, ob- obviously because of, because of the, because of the Michael movie, right? Everyone's back and the music is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's seen a new lease on life, in a different way, a new injection, a new vibe. And I've noticed so many people being like, oh, wow, my kids love the mu- I didn't realize that they would love the music. My, my kids are, and I was going, there's this, there's this idea in art that I butt up against, and it's this idea that people need to change their art to match the audience that they think exists now. And I argue, great art stays great art. Great food stays great food. Great, like, great stays great.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 27:03Trevor Noah?

  The only difference is, how do you tell the story differently to the person? Does, does this make sense? So, so when I think of like, let's, let's use food as a simple example, right? Someone will go, oh, restaurants are dying. Young people don't go to restaurants anymore. They don't care for the food. Then I'm like, no, that's not true. It's not that they don't care for the food. They don't care for the experience that the food was packaged in.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:27Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:28Trevor Noah?

  The tablecloth.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  That's strong.

• 27:30Trevor Noah?

  The way you have to dress.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  That's strong.

• 27:32Trevor Noah?

  The institution that contained the food

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:35Trevor Noah?

  does not appeal to them. But the food, you know how you know this? Because that same chef will go open a food truck, put it in a neighborhood that's cool and young. The kids will flock there, they'll wait in line for hours, it'll be on TikTok, and you go, this is the same chef.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  They wouldn't even care how much they're paying.

• 27:50Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. They'll be like, but this chef at that restaurant, they go, have you been to his restaurant? They're like, we didn't even know he has a restaurant. We just know the food truck.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:55Trevor Noah?

  And that's when you realize, it's not about changing the art to the audience, it's just about understanding the institution that you've, that you left it in. Yeah. And that's something I've noticed you do consistently. Two things. One, you're not afraid to relearn. I mean, you, you talked about this, uh, you know, with Q-Tip, for instance, is like,

• 28:15Trevor Noah?

  you said something that I've only heard one other like great, and I mean like a goat say. And there was Tiger Woods, when he said he had to relearn his swing. And I remember hearing that going, what do you mean you have to relearn? You can't learn, you're Tiger Woods. And he talked about having to relearn his, his swing.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:31Trevor Noah?

  You, you, one of the only other people I've heard talk about that, you said you had to relearn how to rap.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because, you know, language change, changes, um, technique, people get more proficient in certain techniques, um, things evolve.

• 28:51Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Right? So.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Like, I'll put it to you like this. If

• 28:59Speaker 01

  if a young basketball player can see, be inspired by an older basketball player or a current basketball player and add some of those, those moves to their repertoire, right?

• 29:10Trevor Noah?

  Which is what they all do.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Which is what they all do, then why can't a current basketball player go to the playground? Or go to the videotape and see something and incorporate some of, some of those new things into his repertoire?

• 29:23Trevor Noah?

  Arrogance and fear.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  There you go. There you go. You see what I'm saying?

• 29:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, arrogance and fear.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and see, the thing is, see, people can, you can't confuse a desire to improve with a lack of confidence. Don't conflate those two ideas.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  You can't conflate those two ideas. You know what I mean?

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Lack of desire if you had to learn. Yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Whatever you got, you said what?

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Lack of desire and if you had to learn, yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you gotta learn, you gotta, what did you say? Lack of?

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Desire.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. You gotta have that desire and you have to wanna learn, you know, you know what I mean? And so, that's how I look at it. Like, study, study the craft. You can go back and watch every great comedian that ever existed. No reason not to. You could go to a comedy club with a baseball hat low and you and your man and you could sit there and watch things that are happening. You could gain an understanding of the current zeitgeist, because that's a lot of it too. See, art, people confuse, see, commercially successful art is about how it connects with the current zeitgeist.

• 30:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Great art in general is just about what you create from the soul and put out there.

• 30:33Trevor Noah?

  I like that there's a distinction.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  And there's a distinction, right? So, you can have something that's really, really great, it just doesn't necessarily connect with the, the, the majority of the, the zeitgeist at the time. That doesn't mean it's not great. Prime example, you just talked about Michael Jackson. The film allowed the music to connect with the current zeitgeist and it took, and the, the quality of the music took care of itself.

• 30:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Right?

• 30:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  So, that's what you're talking about.

• 30:59Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's exactly it. That's exactly it.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  I remember, this is so crazy, we, sorry to cut you off. We were speaking about, um, back in the day when you started doing television in SA, The Late Night Show. We used to be so frustrated with how the direction of the show was going. And I remember the one thing that you once said was, don't you stress yourself, that I just don't know where it's going. But there was, there was no clue that you were gonna do The Daily Show one day or host the Grammys. When you were in the midst of that frustration, you were like, no, let's just do this thing. Don't worry about it, just don't know where it's going. And this was years before coming to the US.

• 31:33Trevor Noah?

  It, it's funny.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, I get it. I get what you're saying. Yeah, step by step, step by step.

• 31:37Trevor Noah?

  You know what it actually goes to?

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:39Trevor Noah?

  It, now that you've given me that framing, it's the software. So, so when I think about like, how I process my life. You see, like, your mom and your grandmother said to you, don't do a thing unless it's gonna, you, you're gonna

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Do it well and not at all.

• 31:52Trevor Noah?

  Do it well and not, yeah, not at all, but make sure that it's completed. I, I like that, like, follow through on the task.

• 31:59Trevor Noah?

  The thing my mom instilled in me all the time was, don't do it because somebody's watching.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:08Trevor Noah?

  That's the thing she would always say to me.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  You know, you know why that's really important? Because that's how consistency and discipline is built.

• 32:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Because it's like, do it because this is what you really want.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  No incentive.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you gotta do it.

• 32:20Trevor Noah?

  A different, a different incentive.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  The action is the incentive.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's you.

• 32:23Trevor Noah?

  It's a different incentive.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  It's about you. It's within here.

• 32:26Trevor Noah?

  She, she would walk in and find me cleaning something. Like, she would tell me to do, you know, wash the dishes, you know, clean the, the floor, whatever, you, you, you have your chores for the day.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Wow, that's deep.

• 32:34Trevor Noah?

  And then, you know, as soon as she'd leave the room, I would just be

• 32:40Trevor Noah?

  I would be that kid.

• 32:42Trevor Noah?

  And then she would like catch me and then I'd, you know, all of a sudden go into like, oh, mopping mode and I'm washing mode. And then she'd say to me, she'd say, yeah, my child, she'd say, I hope that you, you don't think that you should do it well because I'm seeing you. She says, I want you to take pride in doing it because you know you did it. She says, when you finish washing those dishes, I want you to walk past them just every now and again, seeing them in the, the rack and go, I washed those dishes.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 33:08Trevor Noah?

  No one else. She said, just for you, just for like, I washed those. She says, when, when, when we're sitting here and the floor is clean, I just want you to have that feeling of like, I cleaned that floor. Like, I did that. And as a kid, obviously, you know, there's the chore and I'm like, ah, whatever. But, but subconsciously, what she kept pro, programming in me was this idea of the audience, if you allow the audience to define the joy that you're experiencing, you will then be subject to the audience's joy of your experience.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's the difference between happiness and joy, right? Like, in a lot of ways, sometimes happiness can, is like an external thing.

• 33:45Trevor Noah?

  Completely.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Joy is like inside.

• 33:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  You're joyful regardless. So, you can be in the middle, what, prime example, you could be climbing the mountain, you know, trying to climb Everest.

• 33:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  It's painful, but you're joyful. You're, you're under duress, but you're joyful. You're not happy.

• 34:00Trevor Noah?

  You're not happy in that moment at all.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  No, at all, but you're joyful. And so, that's the thing you gotta, and I'll tell you another thing, you know, you could look yourself in the eyes in the mirror, you know where you're at relative to the things you wanna accomplish.

• 34:13Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Your eyes will tell you the truth. Just look in your eyes and just, you know what it is. You know, if, you know your rank relative to your dreams and where, you know where you're at. Right? If we're gonna go up that barometer of whatever success, or if you want that, whatever, however you look at it.

• 34:30Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  When you look yourself in the eye in the mirror, you know where you're at. And that's the, that's the one that, like, when you can kinda honestly do that and just look yourself in the mirror for a second and just say,

• 34:44Speaker 01

  you know, you know. See, we like to act like we don't know what we, what we are. You know what you are. You know whether you're winning, you know when you're backsliding a little, you know when you, you know.

• 34:56Trevor Noah?

  With yourself was the important thing.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 34:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, not, not with anything external. Yeah, just with yourself, just you, one on one, in the mirror.

• 35:05Speaker 03

  And sometimes the person watching is LL.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  No question, I'm watching.

• 35:09Trevor Noah?

  Hurting over there, you're like, I'm upset just because no one's watching.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Under duress, under duress, just crocs on with a pebble in the front, just under duress.

• 35:21Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere, cuz we got more What Now after this.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  There was this, this phase when, when music was going through, like, rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And there was this big debate that people had about me about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company? Why isn't he gonna be the president? It's like, in the deepest recesses of my soul, I had no desire to do that, man.

• 35:49Trevor Noah?

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• 36:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, one of my favorite YouTube Premium features is smart downloads. Because how many times have you gone somewhere and realized, ah, I forgot to download anything? And now, you're on the way to the airport and you're like, download, download, download, download. You're on the plane, download, download, download, download. There's no wifi. I wish I downloaded. Now, all of those things that you were gonna watch are, are just on the internet. Smart downloads basically thinks ahead for you. It automatically downloads recommended videos based on what you like to watch. So, even when you forget to prepare, YouTube Premium didn't. I love it. It's like packing for a trip and discovering somebody already remembered the thing you always leave at home. It's always the underwear. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium.

• 37:19Trevor Noah?

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• 38:02Trevor Noah?

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• 38:48Trevor Noah?

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• 39:32Trevor Noah?

  Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. Hello over there. Oh, and if Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was What Now with Trevor Noah. It's the best way to support the show.

• 39:56Trevor Noah?

  What did your grandfather think about hip hop? Because jazz musicians, like, you know, you read all these stories. What did he think about hip hop?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  So, I mean, the reality is that I was so crazy. My grandfather was just happy to keep me in the house.

• 40:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah?

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I had, you know, I was riding mini bikes and getting hit on them. My man E Love had a mini bike. I got hit on it and all this, so.

• 40:16Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you one of those kids wheeling around?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  I wasn't wheeling. I was, I wish I was wheeling. I wanted to, but I was really just.

• 40:22Trevor Noah?

  I see those kids in New York all the time. I'm like, I wish I was there.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  We had a, we didn't have a mob of them, but like my man E Love, he had a mini bike and.

• 40:30Trevor Noah?

  How did E Love come to have a mini bike? Yeah, how did he get a mini bike?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  You know, Earl was always like a bit of a hustler, always had a little something going on. And just he had enough to get him a mini bike. And so he's riding around and, you know, he has the string tied to the throttle. He says, yo, you know, I said, can I ride? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, but you know, don't stop at the stop signs. It'll stall.

• 40:50Trevor Noah?

  Why?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Great instruction. It's great advice. Great advice. I got an idea. Don't stop at the stop signs because the bike will stall. Okay? I don't, yo, there's so much to unpack with that.

• 41:03Trevor Noah?

  E Love needs to. Can I tell you what I love here?

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 41:06Trevor Noah?

  No matter where you're from, the hood is the hood. That's what I'm thinking. Seka asila, seka asila. This is fully, you could tell the story in South Africa, in Soeto, in a township in LX. People will be like, we know that man.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:18Trevor Noah?

  We know that bike, we know this rule.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 41:21Trevor Noah?

  Don't talk like, how did he come?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  So I'm rah rah rah rah rah rah rah rah. And I hit, you know, I hit a corner and I'm like, oh, I can't stop. And then I see a car. He said, don't stop. I see a car, so I try to turn and miss it. I'm in the bushes.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  I'm cool. I didn't get hurt.

• 41:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  The bike's a little damaged. I get up, brush myself off, kind of limp home. I left his bike. Where's my bike? I go in the house. My grandmother, so a few days later, you know, the neighborhood, everybody.

• 41:49Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you got. That was the story, yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  You know, the old lady, dude. He got hit. You know, just the whole, the whole neighborhood is just, you know. And so finally, my grandmother, she convinced him. Because my grandfather being from Barbados, he didn't have a lot of money. He did not. But what he did have, he wasn't spending, right?

• 42:07Trevor Noah?

  That makes sense, yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I have nineteen dollars and I'm not spending the nineteen dollars.

• 42:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  You know, it was that kind of a deal, right? So she convinced him to get me some equipment because she, it would keep me in the house. So he went, he bought me two turntables and a mixer. And I was able to lean more into hip hop because he knew I loved it already. And to answer your question about how he felt about it.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  He was a very open minded person. He would take me in the basement and do these reel the reels and have me like talking and singing on the microphone where he would play. And so he would encourage it. So I grew up, you know, listening to like, you know, all of the big band, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, you know, you know. All, just anything, Brubeck, just anything you could think. Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith at the Pan house live and all this stuff. And so he was very comfortable with it. So he was, he loved music. So he was fine with me getting involved with that. So, you know, that's what it was. And I ended up, you know, and you know, what was really crazy is, um.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  I turned professional after he passed away, but before he passed away, he was in the VA hospital because he was in the med corps, um, in the army. And so he was at the VA. He, you know, when he, he wasn't well in his latter years. And he used to stare at the, he used to have a radio on the, on the, on the, on the counter there, you know, on the shelf near the window. The windowsill, on the windowsill. And he would, he would just say, that's Todd on the radio.

• 43:38Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  I promise you, that's Todd. My grandmother would say, gee, that's not Todd. He said, you don't believe me. That's Todd on the radio. And it was really crazy and I used to just sit there and I really believed them. So I ended up naming my first album Radio and, you know.

• 43:52Trevor Noah?

  That's so beautiful.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:55Trevor Noah?

  Do you think it was just him believing in something? It's almost like he, like Eugene, no, but Eugene is very spiritual in that way, I would say. And like.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Eugene?

• 44:05Trevor Noah?

  Sometimes, I think, yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  That's my grandfather's name, Eugene.

• 44:09Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's why that threw you, sorry. Yeah, Eugene.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, when you said.

• 44:11Trevor Noah?

  Your grandfather's name Eugene?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, his name was Eugene.

• 44:13Trevor Noah?

  That's crazy. That is crazy.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:16Trevor Noah?

  Because I said Eugene's very spiritual, then you're like.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like Eugene.

• 44:18Trevor Noah?

  Wait, what? Yeah, no, this Eugene, no, oh damn, okay, that's crazy, yeah. So sometimes we'll experience things or people will experience things that we can't necessarily explain in the moment in that time. So you're telling that story, you know, your grandfather listening to the radio saying, that's Todd, that's Todd. And some people be like, oh, he was losing it. It was the end, it was the. But, but sometimes, man, there's, there's, and I, I fight this, I won't lie. He knows this. He knows this. I fight this on at every turn, right? But I can't deny, man, sometimes there are moments and occurrences that make me feel like there's a, there's a level or, or a spiritual plane that connects people to something that we can't fully understand.

• 45:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, thread. That might be prophetic, that might be, even in that, like my, my grandmother, when she was ninety six years old, the last year of her life, she lived with my mom. They never really had a great relationship when they're growing up tumultuous, you know, love and hate, love and hate here and there. But the final year, my mom always says was the greatest gift that God could have given her.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:22Trevor Noah?

  Because my grandmother had to be with, you know, my mom and they stayed together. And so they bickered and they, but, but she says like they, they, they got to mend everything together, right?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:33Trevor Noah?

  And I used to watch them. They were really like a comedy duo. It was literally like watching a sitcom when they'd be there together. And one of the days I'll never forget is I flew back home to South Africa.

• 45:46Trevor Noah?

  I didn't tell anybody I was coming home. And I thought I'll just surprise them, you know, and, you know, and I, I phoned or I messaged my mom and I said, what are you doing on Saturday? She was like, what? Now, I don't talk like this to my mom, so already she was like, you know, she was like, what are you doing on Saturday? She's like, what? I don't know, why? I was like, well, what are you doing? What, what do you mean, what am I doing? She said, I'm, I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm going to be with the animals and then I'm going to do the garden and then I'm going to, what, what's happening? What's wrong? What are you asking me? I was like, no, nothing. I was just, I just want to know, what are you doing? Like, what are you up to in your life? And my mom was like, what's, what's, what's happening?

• 46:31Trevor Noah?

  What's wrong? What do you want? No, but what's wrong? It was more like, what's wrong, what's happening? And then she paused and she went, wait, are you here? I was like, where is here? She's like, hey, what now? Stop playing with me. Are you here? Are you, are you in South Africa? And I was like, yeah, I was going to surprise you. I'm in South Africa. And then she went, oh, tick, uh, which means, oh, God, like, she went, oh, tick. I can't believe it. Said, what? Yeah, oh damn, you got a good click. She's like, oh, she's like, you won't believe this. I said, what? She said, I've been fighting with your grandmother for the last week. Every day she wakes up and then randomly in the middle of the day, she goes, I can feel Trevor, man. When is Trevor coming?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 47:14Trevor Noah?

  And my mom goes, he's in New York. And then my grandma go, no, man. Oh, Trevor, like, he's here. Are you sure Trevor's not here? Are you sure he's not like? And then my mom would be like, he's definitely in New York. He's not here.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 47:30Trevor Noah?

  And every day, and then, and then my mom, because they would fight and you know, my mom, you, you met my mom.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Premonition.

• 47:35Trevor Noah?

  She also says things that are so funny, but like wrong if you don't know her. So she says to my grand, she's like, she's like, oh, clearly you're already dead. She's like, I, no, no, no, but she's exactly, so she's like, I so feel there and I. She's like, I so humbe there and she's like, you're, you're long gone. And they're laughing about it. She's like, yo, man, you're long dead. But now she's telling me the story and she's like, yo, your grandma, she said, please get to the house. I was like, yeah, I'm coming. She's like, no, get here. She said, because you're, she said, you'll make it a surprise for her. I won't tell her. But she said, but you, clearly she could feel that you, and then when I got there, my, I walked in, my grand like makes a little joke with me. Like when I walk in, she's like, oh, Trevor, is that you? I'm like, it's me. She's like, oh, am I dead? I'm like, no, you're not dead. It's me. It's me, Gogo, it's me. She's like, oh, I thought you're not here. I'm like, no, I'm here.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  No, we're all alive.

• 48:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we start chatting, we start chatting. And then she said, yeah, she said, she said, oh, I knew you were here because, oh, I'm so glad you came to say goodbye. And I was like, goodbye? I can say hello.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 48:31Trevor Noah?

  And she was like, no, yes, yes, yes. She says, oh, but I'm glad, oh, I'm so glad you didn't leave before saying goodbye. And I was like, I was like, I was like, is it a? I also thought the same thing. My mom does like, oh, shame, she's fake. No, I, I left and then I want to say a month after that, she passed peacefully in her sleep. She was, by the way, she wasn't sick. She wasn't struggling. She wasn't anything. She passed peacefully in her sleep. And I keep thinking, when you talk about your grandfather and that windowsill moment.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:59Trevor Noah?

  Part of me goes, it felt like he was, it's like he was seeing something that didn't exist yet because maybe he was moving on to it in a way.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  There's no question about it, man. It's, um, you know, it's powerful, you know what I mean? Like, I'm a big believer in like, um, first of, first of all, I have supreme faith in God, but I'm also a believer in, you know, I think, uh, people pray to God and I think intuition is God speaking to you.

• 49:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I follow that. You know, I always follow my intuitive lead. So, you know, you going, your grandmother kind of feeling that and kind of, that, that's all real. We're all, you know, it's interesting. We're all kind of interconnected in some sort of kind of solar system thing. Like, prime example, just, you know, me and you, Grammy's conference here. Like, if you think about it, like, there are certain people in your life that you just, for some reason, they become part of your solar system, right? Like they become, like, you, you know, and now mind you, some planets are farther away and they take longer to swing back around. But ultimately you pass, you know, so I just, I just, you know, I think what you're saying is real. I, I believe in it. I don't, I don't doubt it.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? I don't, you know, I think.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And you know, it's funny, especially in the internet age, but you know.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Being cynical can sound intelligent, but it's really like cowardice.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Because you're afraid to like see. The possibilities in a situation. It's so easy to be cynical.

• 50:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  It's very, it's it's it's much safer. It's it's safe. It's cheap. It's safe.

• 50:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  You know, it's safe to just, no cynicism. I'm cynical now. Because you know. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? The gummies can't get a steak once in a while. So every now and then you get proven to be right. And then you think your cynicism or you being cynical is the way to go.

• 50:59Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 51:00Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  I just, I don't, I don't like living my life like that.

• 51:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I I think what happens with people is, we will talk about this in different ways. But it's also. It's it's it's safe because.

• 51:15Trevor Noah?

  It's externally safe, but it's not internally safe.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Oh, without a doubt.

• 51:18Trevor Noah?

  Because what you what what you're doing is, you're just saying out loud, I knew that life would let me down.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 51:25Trevor Noah?

  But by saying that it's let you down, it means that you did have an expectation.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 51:29Trevor Noah?

  Does that make sense?

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  You came down from somewhere.

• 51:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and and and people don't realize they're doing that oftentimes when they're being like cynical about everything. I don't, I don't think you have to believe that everything will go or won't go, but I'm saying like it's interesting that you think. That everything will go wrong. I'm like, but just by the fact that you're saying it's wrong. Means that there was a right and you're not admitting that it has let you down. Does this make sense?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:53Trevor Noah?

  As opposed, so I've met like monks, for instance, who they have a. A not even an opposite view, a neutral view, they just go, it just will be.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:01Trevor Noah?

  That would be, that would be like the view that I would say that, oh, if you if you just believe the world is, then it'll just be.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:06Trevor Noah?

  It's interesting that you're, it's all gonna go wrong. It's all gonna go to shit. It's never gonna work. Then it's like, oh, you're trying to protect yourself from life letting you down because it has before.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  That's right. And and you also gotta have the emotional endurance to handle it, right? Because like.

• 52:20Trevor Noah?

  Ah, yeah, that's a big one.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Things get better. Like, you know, thousands of years ago, there was an ice age, but summer was coming.

• 52:29Trevor Noah?

  Remember the thing, I remember the thing I told you the monk said to me? One of the greatest lines that has affected my entire life, simplest thing ever. I asked a monk in Bhutan, I said to him. Give me one, just one nugget. That's hard to apply, but easy to understand. And he said. Life. Is going to be full of storms. A happy life. Is knowing when you are between storms.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's deep. Yeah, yeah.

• 53:04Trevor Noah?

  That one, that one like.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Know when you're in between.

• 53:05Trevor Noah?

  Yo, let me tell you something. You know, you know where you see it in real life?

• 53:09Trevor Noah?

  You talk about watching people? Whenever it's raining. I love to see which people keep their umbrellas up after the rain has stopped. I'm always fascinated by them.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  The just in casers?

• 53:22Trevor Noah?

  Or even the, or even the ones who haven't noticed that it stopped raining.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, clueless. Wow.

• 53:28Trevor Noah?

  They put the umbrella up.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  That's a quiet rain up there.

• 53:31Trevor Noah?

  It's raining.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:32Trevor Noah?

  And the rain stops. And they keep the umbrella up.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's how, that's defense mechanisms, right? People do that in general.

• 53:40Trevor Noah?

  But I'm saying, imagine if you live like that in your life.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 53:43Trevor Noah?

  Storm comes. It is a real storm. You've lost loved ones. You've suffered abuse. You you you've been swindled of your money. You've been fired. Whatever the things are, they are real. They're a hundred percent real. It is a storm. But then when the storm is not happening, you can still live in that storm. And it's like, what happened? Stole my money. When was it? Twenty years ago. You know, your uncle stole that money from me. Yeah, but. I'm not saying that didn't happen, but are you still living in that storm?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, they let their past hold a future hostage. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, it's funny, you know, the the one that the the nugget that I always think is great is, um, you know.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  There's two pieces to it. First of all, just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy.

• 54:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Right? You just alluded to that.

• 54:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  And then the other part is. It's friction, right? And friction makes. It makes easy things. Difficult. And it makes difficult things seem impossible. And if you understand that there's always gonna be friction. You'll be comfortable no matter what's going on. You feel me? Because it makes easy things difficult.

• 54:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And it makes difficult things seem impossible.

• 54:49Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  So if you understand that there's friction.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  You you you'll be able to deal with the, you'll say, oh, this is just friction.

• 54:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. I think the reason we don't have that in life is because. We don't. Most of the time. We don't afford each other the friction or the story of the friction.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:11Trevor Noah?

  Does it make sense?

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:12Trevor Noah?

  So let's say the Grammys. We see the person on stage. Yeah, they give us a thirty second speech of overcoming everything. And they tell us about, you know, how hard it was, how beautiful. People give them an applause. But it's thirty seconds. It's a lot less time than we've spent listening to the album and enjoying your success and seeing you, you know, with millions of followers. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I do, I do, I do, I do.

• 55:35Trevor Noah?

  So so how do I buy that thing from you now? I I can hear it as a story, as a story. But I I have not experienced it. I have not seen it. I have not. You know how many people have even seen online on social media do this? Where. They'll post and their post will always talk about their life in hindsight. Like now it's a beautiful picture of them in a relationship, them traveling, them living their lives. And then they'll go, a year ago. I was a sad, burdened version of myself. I was, then I'm like, okay, I don't mind that you're doing that.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  I mind. I definitely mind. You know what I mean? Why we talk about you being sad a year ago, man?

• 56:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  You're bringing the sadness back.

• 56:15Trevor Noah?

  But my problem is.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:17Trevor Noah?

  They're not showing it that they're they're like. The the the the the happiness is the permanent.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the highlight reel. Yeah.

• 56:26Trevor Noah?

  The sadness is just like a glimpse. I was sad. I.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 56:31Trevor Noah?

  Does that make sense?

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. It does.

• 56:33Trevor Noah?

  And then it makes you feel like your sadness is lasting way longer than it should because theirs is already gone. I don't know. I don't know if I'm articulating this.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you are. I think you are. I think, I think, you know. There's a lot to unpack there though, right? Because the reality is that, you know. Some things aren't for the internet.

• 56:50Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Right? Like some some, some things that people go through in life, they need to just keep that in their kitchen. Or in their dining room or wherever, bed, whatever they, you know, is going on, they need to keep that home. And um, I think people forget that sometimes.

• 57:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people have forgotten that.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  It's it's like crazy to me. It's like, you know, and no disrespect, because I know the majority of people watching this, you know, before they eat, they, I'm like, yo, can we just eat this food, man? Do I need to do a photo session with my filet before we, yo, can I, can I, can we get to this? Like, what are we doing right now?

• 57:22Trevor Noah?

  Todd, it's a filet.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yo, let's eat this.

• 57:25Trevor Noah?

  He's just like, it's a filet. It's a filet. Come on.

• 57:33Trevor Noah?

  But it's a filet.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  It's a filet. Come on, I gotta take a photo. It's a filet. Yo, you're hilarious.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  You know, I I love it when um, when when I learn something new, especially about spirituality and about how things are, I don't believe there's coincidences. I believe that things will happen as they may or as they should, and you're just there to catch the wave when it happens. It's like radio waves are flying around. If you have an antenna, you will catch the station.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Like that's happening with or without you.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  The name of the album, right? Force.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  No way.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Frequencies of real creative energy. And that was the whole idea of just catching those frequencies. That's what the force stands for, frequencies of real creative energy. And so it's exactly what you just said.

• 58:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Those, when those signals come by, you're just reaching out and just grabbing them. You know what I mean? That was the whole thought.

• 58:16Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's what, you see? How how is it, you know, you just made me realize something.

• 58:22Trevor Noah?

  You are the most conscious, but yet seemingly unconscious rapper. No, and I mean this, hopefully, like, I hope you take it as a compliment, because I mean it as one. It's like. You know, in our heads, when we go like, oh, the conscious rapper.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Trevor Noah?

  In someone's, in someone's minds, it's like a certain way of dressing, a certain way of being, a certain way of. And then when you, and then when you think of chains and you think of like the diamond earrings and everything, you think of a different way of being and a different. You you you literally broke every single mold and you continue to break every single mold because I think of you and I go. Every single album had a title. And a meaning behind it that could only be described as conscious.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:01Trevor Noah?

  Right? Your music had everything that people can associate with hip hop in a stereotypical way, braggadocious and out there and aspirational and hopeful.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Good times.

• 59:13Trevor Noah?

  Good times or the hope of good times or the, you know what I mean, the celebration of the times that are good because they're not always. And then. One of the biggest ones that I I still, I can't think of it not existing because in my head it's always existed. You're like the first and only rapper to think of women as an active audience who are human beings. And not just an object or a subject.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Hard way.

• 59:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but we, but but like, how do you? Let's go through all of those elements. So, okay. Where do you think the brain side, you know, the brainiac side of your world was developed? Who who nourished that? Who encouraged, who encouraged that in your family?

• 59:57Speaker 01

  So um. I grew up, you know. With a family, like, first of all, my house was full of books, but on top of it being full of books, my aunts were teachers and. Social work, like all kinds of different, like, so. There was a, there was a big emphasis on. Not necessarily formal education, but learning in general. There was just this, there was just an unsaid thing that we're gonna learn something. Like my grandfather, back then. There was no internet, right? So they had this thing called the the World Book of Knowledge.

• 1:00:33Trevor Noah?

  I remember those.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  You remember the world? And I would get, so my grandfather would get those every year and I would be reading them and, you know, like, that was, so my life was, I was curious.

• 1:00:42Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  And I'm, that was like how we lived. So. That part of it, but here's the the funny thing with me is like, I was like. You know, when I was in school, so I didn't stay long. But when I was in school, I was in classes for advanced kids, but I had terrible behavior.

• 1:00:59Trevor Noah?

  Were you bored easily?

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, you know, like.

• 1:01:04Trevor Noah?

  No, it makes sense.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  They're talking about. See, just just to go aside for one second. I think a lot of the problems with schools in general is that they don't teach everyday kids. How what they're teaching correlates with their real life and how it can be applied in real life. They expect you to just know that.

• 1:01:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, dead prayers said it well.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  Schools ain't teaching us.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  It it's true. You know, so when they're, you know, talking to me. About stuff and then I'm looking out the window. I'm just like, yo, what are you talking about?

• 1:01:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  You know, and then, you know.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  In America, you know, like, there's that moment, you know, for kids of color, you know, black kids, or, you know, you're sitting there in class and all of a sudden, they start talking about the nineteenth century in this country, and they start bringing up some of the atrocities that took place, and all of a sudden, there's this weird kind of rush of embarrassment that goes over you that no one talks about.

• 1:02:14Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Because maybe, because if you're, whether, even if you're in a school that's all black, or if you're in a school that's mixed, depending on whatever the makeup is, no matter what, there's a certain amount of shame associated with being perceived to be too weak to overcome that.

• 1:02:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:02:36Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  So it's kind of, so so when you're in school, it's kind of like, okay, i- i- it just felt to me like

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I felt like someone was trying to teach me how to be like everybody else.

• 1:02:52Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  And be obedient.

• 1:02:53Trevor Noah?

  That's what school is, though.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Trevor Noah?

  And, and I don't say this in a

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Institution.

• 1:02:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but also don't say this in a, it's, it's in a, it's in a bad way and in a good way, it's just in the way it is.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:01Trevor Noah?

  School is designed for the average. I- if you're an outlier in any way, school, school is not necessarily designed for you. And unfortunately, we haven't found a way that it can be because it, it's mass education, it's such a difficult thing to do, so everyone who falls within its constraints and confines will do well.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Trevor Noah?

  If you're slightly ahead of it, slightly behind it, it's, it's over for you, it's, it's just gonna, it's, it's, it's not gonna be made for you.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Trevor Noah?

  Do, do, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and so, so that's where, so I just, I just got excited about learning around the house and seeing all of these books and seeing all of this information and staring at my grandfather's tenor saxophone and seeing that and seeing pictures of him young with his wavy hair and he's with his band and he's, you know, he's cool and he's, you know,

• 1:03:50Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  He's got these curls and he's, you know, he's like the, the

• 1:03:53Trevor Noah?

  Swaggering.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Swaggering, you know, you know, it was amazing, so that's where that, that came from, and then, you know, the creative part, you know, my mother wrote poetry and was, you know, played the accordion and

• 1:04:05Trevor Noah?

  This is beautiful, okay, now, now, all the pieces are coming together now.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying, so it was like a, a real interesting world that I

• 1:04:12Trevor Noah?

  So then, okay, now then, let's talk about the ladies' side of it, you know, because the name, Ladies Love Cool James, that

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Man, that was just wishful thinking, man, I just wanted them to love me, bro.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  I told you.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you knew that, right, Eugene?

• 1:04:23Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm not

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  You knew that, you knew that, you knew that, right? Yeah, yeah, yo.

• 1:04:28Trevor Noah?

  Can I, can I tell you?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Trevor Noah?

  You say that, but I would argue, you, looking at your life,

• 1:04:37Trevor Noah?

  everything of yours has been wishful thinking.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:04:40Trevor Noah?

  But it's applied thinking as well.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I wanted it, for sure.

• 1:04:44Trevor Noah?

  You see, that's the difference, though.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:45Trevor Noah?

  You didn't just want it, you went for it.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Oh, hundred percent.

• 1:04:48Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, but you know, like, the ladies' love thing was really simple, I had my friend, my man Playboy Mikey D, and it was like, my man Red Hot Lover this and Lover Boy this, and all these different, and so I was like, you know, and he was like, yo, and I was like, you should be the ladies' love or something, I was like, yeah, I like that, I'm gonna be the ladies' love, so it's like, I'm ladies' love, he's Playboy, this one's this one.

• 1:05:14Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  And we kind of just all that vibe, but then

• 1:05:16Trevor Noah?

  It was Ruben who shortened it, right?

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  It was Ruben, yeah, because he didn't, he didn't think it would fit on the label, you know what I mean?

• 1:05:22Trevor Noah?

  He's not wrong.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  You know, and I was like, whatever, yo, he, he can call me, yo, glass of water, Cool J.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  I just want a record on me, so whatever you want to do, let's do it, you know?

• 1:05:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  And, um

• 1:05:35Trevor Noah?

  But when you, when, when you, when you created, uh, when you released the song, um, I Need Love.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Trevor Noah?

  That, that flew in the face of everything that hip hop was at the time, the idea of hip hop, the because, because it flipped, you know, if, if we, if we think of, and I, the reason I think it's so pertinent today as well.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Trevor Noah?

  Is because masculinity goes through these waves in, in society, into the zeitgeist, as we talk about it, where people constantly try and confine or define masculinity as one, as one simple idea, one flat idea. A man must be like this, a man do like this, and we're seeing that again now.

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:11Trevor Noah?

  In internet culture, there's, there's like a, a strong surge. Yeah, like, in the man, and I think some of it is like, some people just say that as like a hateful thing of like men hanging out, so there's part of it where I go, it's just men hanging out, there's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:06:23Trevor Noah?

  But then there's part of it where

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  Until they start playing pickleball.

• 1:06:26Trevor Noah?

  That's not part of the manosphere, and I resent the fact that you said it because I play pickleball.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Check him out.

• 1:06:37Trevor Noah?

  So

• 1:06:39Trevor Noah?

  the, the, you know, you know, the, the, the, the other part of it is this, it's, it's the fact that it's the fact that you have men who are only encouraging one side of being a man. I think a lot of what they say is great.

• 1:06:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Trevor Noah?

  You know, be self-sufficient, be strong, go work out, be help, do this thing, believe in yourself, push hard, be competitive, it's great. But I see very few of them saying like, hey, be vulnerable, be honest, be, be, be, be needy, be, you know what I mean, like, find the things that you're, that you are also, and not just one side of, and

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  So let me, let me, let me

• 1:07:12Trevor Noah?

  When you put out that song, I Need Love.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Trevor Noah?

  Come on, that

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, here's the thing, though, right, so let's, let's look at it from that standpoint of, like, everybody on the internet, men and different things, thing you, what, what you call it, the sphere?

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  Manosphere.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Okay, let's call it that, right, let's think about all that, the bottom line is this. If, if being fearless and courageous is the manly thing, let's say, right?

• 1:07:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Then

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love, and you're not afraid to say it, is the most

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  Fearless.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  fearless and courageous thing, right? You know, because, like, my thing was, I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you.

• 1:08:00Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  It's not, you know, it's, it's the exact opposite, it's not like, I need love, not go hide in the corner.

• 1:08:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's like, I'm still gonna make I'm bad and Mama's to knock you out and all these stuff, but I can make I need love because I believe I need love, like, that was what I was inspired to say, and I think the most authentic thing is to just be, just be who you are and say what you feel, for real, see, the, the, the problem

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  is when men run into problems when they start looking to a female, looking to a relationship for personal validation.

• 1:08:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  And to justify their actions, that's when they get in trouble, right? It's not a, I need love is not the issue, the issue is, can you need love and still have dignity? Or are you gonna turn into a, a, just a, a, an absolute meatball and just be like stalking someone?

• 1:08:55Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Can you need love and, and still maintain your character? Can you need love but still not, you know, turn into a pile of, lose yourself?

• 1:09:04Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? That, that's the difference, and so, to me, it's like, I don't think there's anything wrong with

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  masculinity, like, I'm very comfortable with masculinity, I'm very comfortable as a man. I'm also very comfortable saying whatever it is I feel.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Because that's the most manly thing.

• 1:09:23Trevor Noah?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying?

• 1:09:25Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly what I'm saying.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Like, like, you know, if I hug, if I want to hug my son, I'm gonna hug my son, I'm not gonna be afraid to hug my son.

• 1:09:32Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  But I'm also not gonna, you know, come home and cry on my son's shoulder, either. Unless there was a situation where I was forced to do that, then I would do that.

• 1:09:41Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:09:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  So I think that's, so I think a lot of the, the problems, see, I think a lot of times, now we're talking about, especially when you get into younger guys and young boys and like, they, um, you gotta build who you are from the inside out, man.

• 1:09:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Because ultimately, people are gonna see through whatever it is you're trying to, whatever that facade is, people are gonna see through that.

• 1:10:05Trevor Noah?

  At some point, it cracks.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  You gotta build from the inside out, so if you're a man, you know, we're gonna know. And it's not gonna be because of your clothes, it's not gonna be because of your pose, it's gonna be because of your character.

• 1:10:21Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  And it's gonna be because of how you deal with people, do you keep your word?

• 1:10:26Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  When you tell somebody you're gonna do it, you know, like, if you, if I tell you I'm coming to the podcast, am I, do, am I gonna show up?

• 1:10:33Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  It's like, do you keep your word, do you say that, what you, do you do what you say you're gonna do? That's manhood, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you, you protect your family, yeah, you protect yourself, yeah, you defend the honor of those around you, yes. You, you make sure you look out for those who are deserving of that in terms of, like, like, like, when, when, when you're talking about your circle, you look out for those who, whose actions merit

• 1:10:59Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  being looked out for, you don't let people manipulate you or make you feel guilty for your own success.

• 1:11:05Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Right? Like, these are things that you gotta be prepared for, you know what I mean?

• 1:11:10Trevor Noah?

  I know exactly what you mean.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  You help those, if they want to travel, you help them travel, but they gotta be willing to pack their bags and

• 1:11:18Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm, they gotta be willing to pack their bags.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Right? And so, like, that's the way I think about it, you know, so when I do songs like I Need Love, or when I do any of my music, I don't feel like there are any rules to what we do.

• 1:11:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  The question is, is it true to you? Now, because some things are imagination, sometimes it's imagination, you know, when Marlon Brando's in The Godfather, you know, he's, he's using his imagination. Sometimes we create art through imagination.

• 1:11:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  It's not always reality, you know, it, it, it, it can resemble reality, but it's imagination, so it might be a song, and I've never experienced that, but it's something I imagined or was people watching and saw it and got inspired, right? So that's okay, too, but in terms of your life as a man, it's like manhood is about just standing on your word and, and doing what you, like, one of the songs on the fourth album, I said, always keep your word, always paying back, like, I meant that, you know, like, like, when you deal with people, you keep your word, you pay people back when you owe.

• 1:12:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Like, that matters, that's, that, that's the stuff to me.

• 1:12:23Trevor Noah?

  Is, is, is that why you've, you've, you've spent so much time and effort in, in this era of your career?

• 1:12:32Trevor Noah?

  Again, subverting the expectations, hip hop for a long time for many people has been about, I'm better than you, I'm going to conquer you, I'm gonna defeat you, I've got more than you. But in a, but in a, but in a, in a good way as well. It was a challenge, battle rap. You know what I mean? It's like you and cannabis, for instance, like when I think of like some of the great defining moments in hip hop. And then now I feel like your legacy has switched to, I'm gonna remember you. Like, like, it's almost like you've become one of the custodians of hip hop to say, no, hey, all these greats, we need to remember that they existed, we remember that they're still here, we need to remember what they did to the game, what they gave to the game. Like, where did that, when, when did that shift happen? What, what, what made you think,

• 1:13:12Trevor Noah?

  I need to make sure that every single hip hop artist that deserves to be remembered gets remembered. Otherwise, they will be forgotten.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  So Rock the Bells is the company that I do that with. And where it came from is that, I saw the shift where hip hop became more about,

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  and, and mind you, this is coming from the guy who's like the commercial king, right? Like, you know, in terms of being a commercial rapper and, right? Like, I'm one of the first guys, like, a commercial rapper, not just underground, right? So, but what I noticed is that,

• 1:13:47Trevor Noah?

  You're one of the first crossover hip hop artists.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  But what I noticed is that it became more about what people have acquired than what they contributed.

• 1:13:58Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:13:59Trevor Noah?

  Taken instead of what they're given.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  So your value, like, I've never, ever heard anybody even speculate or wonder about Bob Marley's bank account.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  I've never heard anybody use that as a way, a, a, a metric for Bob Marley's success or his impact.

• 1:14:18Trevor Noah?

  That, have you seen that, have you seen that interview? It's funny that you say that. There was, there's a clip of an old interview of his that I saw a few months ago.

• 1:14:25Speaker 03

  Oh, that British interview.

• 1:14:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the British interviewer who asked him, he says, uh, Mr. Bob Marley, you've, you've done quite well for yourself and uh, you've rarely, you've been sung, all of, people sing your songs all over the world, you've done, you must have a lot of money. And, and then he's like, are you rich? He says something like that. And then like Bob Marley replies, yeah, and it's the most beautiful response, I'll butcher it if I even try and say, but he basically goes like, he's like, he's like, what do you mean by rich? He's like, rich is the money in my bank account or rich, he says, yo, man, my experiences, my people, my country, what I'm doing, what I'm experiencing, he's like, yo, your rich is not my rich. It's so interesting that you just said that.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and so, and, and see, my thing is this, look, don't take this wrong, I like to make money. I want everybody, I'd like all the artists to have money, but that's being able to capitalize and monetize a situation, like the Wright Brothers did not get rich from airplanes. Like, like being able to monetize something is a whole nother skill set.

• 1:15:19Trevor Noah?

  It's a different game.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  And there's nothing wrong with it. Don't, I am clear, I don't want anybody to get it confused. I want people to make money. I understand how important it is for our lives. I come from a background, we didn't have a lot. I understand the importance. However, we still have to remember that there are great artists who made great contributions to society. It doesn't matter how much Melly Mel and Flash and them made off of the message as a song. It matters from a business standpoint, of course it matters.

• 1:15:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  I think they should get every dime from that record that they were supposed to get, of course.

• 1:15:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  That being said, how that impacted society should not be measured by what they have in the bank.

• 1:16:08Trevor Noah?

  We have, we have become a society that has singular measures of success now, if, if we're honest about that.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:16:14Trevor Noah?

  You know, like, like Forbes, for instance, I mean, they do what they do. But it is, it's always been interesting to me that Forbes really just focuses on people's net worth. And not like, for instance, like net contributions or net value created or net, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  How much, how much, you know, how much money did Nelson Mandela, how much is his estate?

• 1:16:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Okay, this man, what he did for, what he did for the world? This example that he set for the world?

• 1:16:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  He didn't have two billion, three billion. Okay, and so, you know, I think there's nothing wrong with the money, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of great people who make a lot of money and I applaud them and I love that for them, I really do. And I make money, I, I really enjoy it. But I do, no doubt, no question, but Mandela, Martin Luther King still meant something.

• 1:17:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  He still accomplished something and touched, Gandhi still did something. When he marched to the sea and did the salt march, that still meant something, regardless of, you see what I'm saying?

• 1:17:23Trevor Noah?

  No, I completely get you.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  So all I'm just saying is just, I'm just saying, let's just keep it all in perspective. See, people will go to the extreme and just hate billionaires. I think that's the wrong approach, cause that's an extreme too. Because most of the people who say they hate billionaires would wanna be one.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  There's not many, there's some, there's not many people who would say, I don't, I don't wanna be a billionaire. You know, you got a couple that'll say, okay, I'll take nine hundred ninety-nine million, you know what I mean? But there's not many, you know what I mean?

• 1:17:50Trevor Noah?

  That's me.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? That's you Eugene, that's you Eugene, I know it was Eugene, I know it, I can see you, I can, it's them bracelets tell me you got it in you. You just said, you know, I'm subtle.

• 1:18:01Trevor Noah?

  I don't wanna be greedy.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  I don't wanna be greedy, just give me nine hundred ninety-nine, million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand dollars.

• 1:18:08Trevor Noah?

  You take the one and buy something nice for you, get something nice, you know?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  You know, get something nice for yourself, go over there and get your, you know.

• 1:18:15Trevor Noah?

  What, what, what, I like, I like that you say that because that, that speaks to the complexity of everything, right? It's like, um, we literally had this conversation the other day.

• 1:18:24Speaker 03

  I said, I, I think this is the most quiet I've been ever in an interview, I've, I've, in a hang, I've never been this quiet. I feel like I'm, you're recapping our conversations and I'm learning something new, it's just amazing, carry on.

• 1:18:37Trevor Noah?

  No, so what I, what I, we literally had this conversation, we were talking about the billionaire thing the other day.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:18:41Trevor Noah?

  And I was saying to Eugene, I said, you know, I really, really do wish that we lived in less of a flattened world. And I, I do believe, it's not the only reason, but I do believe social media has rewarded flattening. Because it's, it's an easier message to get across quickly and so, you know, it, it, it's much faster than nuance, right? We've even seen it online, a clip will travel way further than an interview.

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Trevor Noah?

  Right? Clips are way more powerful, right?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely, clip farming.

• 1:19:09Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly, that's what, and that's what society has become. But I go like, if you, if you really think of it, you go like, no, I don't think you hate a billionaire.

• 1:19:19Trevor Noah?

  You, you hate it in relation to yourself, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:24Trevor Noah?

  So, my issue is not a billionaire. My issue is the fact that a billionaire is still living in the same society as somebody who can work two jobs and still be homeless.

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Trevor Noah?

  That's where I go. So I go, and I also go, it's not the billionaire's fault. I go, yo, you're also part of the system, you're participating in the system, so let's fix the system. I see you talk about things like that all the time, just like the way you think about AI, the way you think about the world we're living and the, you pulled out of a concert because the workers were striking, I think this was in Philadelphia. And I remember you pulled out and you said, yo, I can't go there and cross a picket line to make money. When these people on the ground are not gonna get the money that they're supposed to get. To me, that was a moment where I was like, damn.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Let me tell you something, let me tell you something, man, my grandfather shined shoes. My grandfather shined shoes, my grandfather was a baggage handler. He worked his way, but he then, then he worked at the post office, then he went back to school to study engineering to try to get better in his life. Like,

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  like,

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  at the end of the day, what people should really look at, I think the question you should ask, or at least one good question, is, am I maximizing my own personal potential?

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  That's really the question, a good, one good question to ask. Am I maximizing my personal potential in life? Because if, if you're, you're, let's go back to climbing Mount Everest, if your goal has always been to climb Mount Everest. And every day you're doing the training, you're going in the altitude rooms, you're doing your rock climbing exercises, you're going through all your process, you're learning all about the equipment, the weather, all of that, you're, all of that, right? When you walk into a room with a billionaire, you will not feel less than.

• 1:21:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  I've met, like even when we go to the conferences, we meet all kinds of adventurers and guys that have went all over the world and do deep sea diving and take pictures on top of them. And it's like you find out that there are lots of ways for human beings to be fulfilled.

• 1:21:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  But society for some reason has decided

• 1:21:34Trevor Noah?

  On one minute at a time.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  that there's only one way for you to be complete.

• 1:21:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  And full, but what we never seem to care about or ask about is, or at least consider is, what does that person want out of their life?

• 1:21:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Like, I remember a long time ago, you know, there was this, this phase when, when music was going through, like rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And it was this big debate that people had about me about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company?

• 1:22:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Why isn't he gonna be the president? It's like, in the deepest recesses of my soul, I had no desire to do that, man. It's just because this person wants to do that.

• 1:22:22Trevor Noah?

  I love you so much for saying that.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Yo, it's like.

• 1:22:24Trevor Noah?

  I, are you familiar with the Peter Principle?

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  No, tell me, tell me the Peter Pr- I've heard that, that term.

• 1:22:30Trevor Noah?

  The Peter Principle is a term that refers to, it's something that I find is most apparent in America, but it's all over the world, but it's really apparent in America. It is the concept of promoting people to the point of failure.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You rise to the level of your incompetence.

• 1:22:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but it's like, but they also put you there. And it's like, because society is constantly, so you go, man, you're an amazing, yo, LL, you're an amazing rapper, you're a phenomenal artist, you, you, you create, you, yo, you should run a company, why don't you run a company? Like, yo, I'm doing this, I'm doing well. Yeah. I'm enjoying myself, you should run a company. I'm doing this, I'm enjoying myself, I'm do- you should run a, and then you run a company, you don't like running a company, you have no aptitude for running a company because you don't have the will to run a company. And then the company doesn't do well, then they're like, man, he was trash at running that company. Then you're like, but he never wanted to run it in the first place.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:23:18Trevor Noah?

  And we do this in every aspect. It's, it's crazy how that principle applies in society. Companies do this all the time.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:23:25Trevor Noah?

  They will take somebody who is, I mean, absolutely the best at sales or something. They crush it, they crush it, they crush it, they'll make them a manager. Then you're like, why did you make them a manager? Well, they were the best in sales, so we made them the manager. Yeah, but do you know if they were a good manager, though? Managing people is different to selling.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Trevor Noah?

  Why not just keep them going up the ladder and say, well, there's a, there's a limit? I'm like, yeah, but you, you created that limit, it's an artificial limit that you created.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Trevor Noah?

  And now what you've done is, you promote this person to manager, you say they're not a good manager, and then you know what they do?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:23:58Trevor Noah?

  They fire you.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Trevor Noah?

  They don't even keep you as a salesperson.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  But you know what's the, the piece of that that's?

• 1:24:03Trevor Noah?

  The thing that you are good at. They fire you and you go, but I was a salesperson, I was the best.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know the one thing in this, you gotta know how to say no.

• 1:24:11Trevor Noah?

  That's hard.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, because when you say no, then they debate.

• 1:24:15Trevor Noah?

  That's hard. That, and that's what you're talking about.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. You gotta know how to, I don't, I don't wanna be the president of that. Now, I'll start, excuse me, I'll do Rock the Bells, cuz I'm passionate about that.

• 1:24:24Trevor Noah?

  And you want to.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  And I wanna do Rock the Bells.

• 1:24:26Trevor Noah?

  There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  You know, so we have the channel on Sirius XM and we have all the stuff we do. Yeah, I wanna do that, though. I didn't wanna do that other thing. Right? It's like, that's the, the stuff that we, we gotta, you gotta, that's why you gotta be able to say no, that's like in the midst of it. Now, in terms of what you just said, I always think about how people rise to the level of their incompetence and then you have to stay curious and increase your skill in order to level up again.

• 1:24:53Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, that's hard, though. That's terrifying, in fact.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the, that's the difference, though, right? That's the sec- that's the, that's the 12th rep when you're on the bench, you know?

• 1:25:04Trevor Noah?

  I told you you must count.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  You know, you know?

• 1:25:06Trevor Noah?

  I told you. The 12th rep.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  I've come to realize, I told you can work more.

• 1:25:12Trevor Noah?

  It really can, it really can.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Man, I told you.

• 1:25:15Trevor Noah?

  I've been telling you. I've been telling you.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  How do I say, how do I say I told you in your, your home dialect?

• 1:25:22Trevor Noah?

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 1:25:23Trevor Noah?

  Ni.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Ni.

• 1:25:24Trevor Noah?

  Chelile.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:25Trevor Noah?

  So go ngig, think of it like that.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Oh, ni chelile.

• 1:25:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, ni chelile.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, chelile.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Chelile.

• 1:25:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, that's it.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:34Trevor Noah?

  That's it.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:35Trevor Noah?

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:25:37Trevor Noah?

  Trevor, yesterday I was like, you know what, guys, when you, when you're out, when you're working out and you know you, you're doing, don't count, man.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  I didn't say don't count, I didn't say don't count. Don't do that to me.

• 1:25:46Trevor Noah?

  Trevor, can I tell my story?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yo, okay, do it, and then I will reply.

• 1:25:49Trevor Noah?

  Is it okay if I tell my story?

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Do it.

• 1:25:51Trevor Noah?

  Lie, and then I will respond. What a setup. That's like a Peter, nah? You just, you do.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  No, I'm, please, please, go ahead.

• 1:25:59Trevor Noah?

  Trevor's like, guys, guys, you guys are getting it wrong, guys. You know, you know what I find, nah? When people are working out, just know when you're working out, just, just do it until you feel that it's happening. Just, just know, cuz this thing of counting, guys, people are, people are counting, I've done it so many times and ah, just leave it, just have a good time, man, you know? And I said, isn't it better if you know how many reps you've done? Trevor's like, Eugene, that's the thing with you, man, you're just keeping score, just, just work, man, just, you'll know when you're done and your muscles are safe, you, you'll just know it.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  He wouldn't say that when the bills is coming in, though.

• 1:26:33Trevor Noah?

  So let's pause, let's pause. You know what I love about how you painted this false scenario? Let's start with this. Where, just judging from that story.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Failure.

• 1:26:41Trevor Noah?

  From that, from that story, where do you think this conversation was taking place? Where does it sound like it was taking place?

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Sounds like you're in the gym.

• 1:26:46Trevor Noah?

  You see, you see how you lie about me?

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  No, it was here.

• 1:26:49Trevor Noah?

  I was here, busy pumping, no. So this is, the convers- the context is important. The context is important.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:26:56Trevor Noah?

  What I was saying.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Your phone is ringing, someone calling you.

• 1:26:59Trevor Noah?

  What's that, the truth?

• 1:27:02Trevor Noah?

  So, no, what, what I was saying was, yeah.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like it, yeah.

• 1:27:08Trevor Noah?

  What, what I was saying was, it is not only the number that defines whether or not you have lifted, right? The number is just something that you are using to help you get to a certain point.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's true.

• 1:27:19Trevor Noah?

  But the truth is, it's the fatigue and the muscle that's defining the growth. So if you fixate too much on the number, you can stay in a place forever because you're not actually asking the question, is my muscle fatigued or not?

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  That's absolutely correct. That is absolutely correct. You know why? Because.

• 1:27:34Trevor Noah?

  This is what I was saying.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  You have to fool your body.

• 1:27:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Ni chelile.

• 1:27:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

• 1:27:47Trevor Noah?

  I love it, I love it.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:27:50Trevor Noah?

  Don't press anything. We've got more. What now, after this? Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went, I can't believe this is happening?

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Yo, the one that always pops in my head, and I've said it before, it's funny, I, I saw Muhammad Ali slapboxing Berry Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, oh, Berry, oh, Berry, and I'm just sitting there going, yo, this is wild right now. I said, I can't even believe what I'm witnessing right now.

• 1:28:16Trevor Noah?

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• 1:29:00Trevor Noah?

  gonna start. But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable. Offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance, sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom improvement. If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step.

• 1:29:40Trevor Noah?

  So, turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com. That's R U L A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.

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• 1:30:26Trevor Noah?

  Yo, let me ask you this. When you, when you look back at your life, you must have had some of like the most surreal. What are some of like the, the most surreal moments you've had? Just when you look back and go, I can't believe that happened to me in that. Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went, "I can't believe this is happening"?

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Yo, the one that always pops in my head, and I've said it before, is funny. I, I saw Muhammad Ali slapboxing Berry Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, "Oh, Berry, oh Berry", and I'm just sitting there like, yo, this is wild right now. I said, "I can't even believe what I'm witnessing right now, Muhammad Ali, Berry Gordy is boxing, slapboxing Diana Ross", yo, it was crazy, crazy. I walk in, you know, I would walk in Quincy Jones's house and Marlon Brando would be sitting there, you know. It was crazy, man. I've seen some, yeah, it's, it's crazy, yeah.

• 1:31:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you, I mean, that's like famous, like, I know people use the term fame, yeah, but like, there was a time when it was, um, almost like, um, Olympus and the gods.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:31:25Trevor Noah?

  Where there was this space in the clouds where they existed.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  The kind of fame that will never exist again.

• 1:31:28Trevor Noah?

  It can't exist again.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:30Trevor Noah?

  It can't exist. People were inaccessible, there's no social media, there was, you, you were in that. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad?

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but, you know, that was the vibe. That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones, yeah.

• 1:31:45Trevor Noah?

  Because Michael was notorious for...

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Being inspired.

• 1:31:48Trevor Noah?

  Like you said, he would look at the world.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Well, he called me, I went to the studio with him and all that, like, it was, you know, we had a ball.

• 1:31:53Trevor Noah?

  Do you still have those tracks, by the way?

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  No, they're somewhere floating around there in his thing. I mean, honestly, they, they weren't, they weren't our best, but I think we were getting our footing and, you know, just kind of creating.

• 1:32:06Trevor Noah?

  I mean, that's still, someone has to find...

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was...

• 1:32:09Trevor Noah?

  Because you see, this, this is something I think of as well, you know, going back to talk about like art and the artist. There's the best, fine. Our best work, we judge ourselves, maybe someone else judge, whatever it might be. But then there are also moments in history, it's like, the pen that the Declaration of Independence was written on. Imagine, imagine if there was a draft of the Declaration of Independence and you're like, "Where is this"? It's like, "I don't know, man, it wasn't our best." Yeah, but, but that...

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  Where is it?

• 1:32:37Trevor Noah?

  That is sometimes more interesting...

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:40Trevor Noah?

  And more important to preserve than the thing that exists, because it's like, we know the thing that exists.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Hanging out with Mike was a lot of fun, man. You know, we'd, you know, we'd be on a plane, it'd be, it'd be me, Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Milken. You know, we on a jet, we talking and vibing and I'm just listening and...

• 1:32:59Trevor Noah?

  How old were you when you met him, man?

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  Man, huh, well, the first time I met Mike, I might have been eighteen, nineteen, I don't know, some, real young.

• 1:33:09Trevor Noah?

  How big was he at that stage?

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Huge, like, this is like after Thriller.

• 1:33:14Trevor Noah?

  Damn!

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  I mean, he was, it was Olympus.

• 1:33:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, okay, okay.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  It was Olympus.

• 1:33:20Trevor Noah?

  So now you on, you in Olympus right now?

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely, cuz, you know, and then we dropped the, um, bad albums right together and, you know, just off to the races. Yo, it was crazy, it was crazy. And, you know, Mike was so, he was a really good guy. I remember when he come in the studio, "Sorry, I'm late, there was traffic", I'm just sitting there like, yo, some traffic, Michael Jackson. What was he in traffic, like, like all this crazy, you know? You know what I'm saying? I'm just like, it was crazy, man.

• 1:33:50Trevor Noah?

  What was he like to work with in the studio?

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Very meticulous, um, really, really, uh, just really smart and he liked to vibe. He liked to vibe and kind of kick it, you know, talk about music. He was just a really interesting character, tell you stories, tell you crazy stories and all that about...

• 1:34:11Trevor Noah?

  Because I've heard some people say, I remember talking to Quincy once about this, and he said, Michael, like, in a weird way, didn't take himself too seriously when he was with people he trusted.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Definitely didn't, he definitely didn't.

• 1:34:23Trevor Noah?

  Like, he knew there was a gag sometimes that the public didn't know about, but he was playing into it.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Man, you know, I, you know, this is the crazy, I remember, yeah, I was so crazy, man, I remember sitting there, man, I'm like, we sitting there like, it was kind of like his office, it was in the studio, and I'm like, yo, I don't know what, what made me say this, like, we sitting there talking, just like this, I'm like, yo, Mike, man, I gotta fart, man. He said, "What"? I said, "I gotta fart", he said, "What"? I said, "I have to fart", he said, "Well, go ahead", then I went, "Uh", he went, "Ah",

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  then he got on the phone, my man Mike got on the phone, we was talking about ice cream, we got on the phone, he said, "Yeah", "Oh, you want ice cream"? I said, "Yes, can I have ice cream"? He gets on the phone, it's like, whoever was, he was like, "Hey, hey, guess what LL did", and they were like, he said, "Guess what he did"? They said, "What"? He said, "He ordered ice cream".

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  He didn't do, yo, he was a fuck, yo, he was a...

• 1:35:23Trevor Noah?

  He knew what he was doing.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Yo, Mike was the wild out, man. He was cool, man. Mike was, Mike was a good dude, man. He was not, you know, he was a good guy. He really was, he really was. He really was.

• 1:35:34Trevor Noah?

  This is, this is what I think of oftentimes, like, perspective in all of these situations. No, because you, you, you, you're living in a world where, you know, you hear like, um...

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  That'll, that'll, that's a clip farming, that's clip farming right there, that's crazy.

• 1:35:46Trevor Noah?

  I think of like the moments, man.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  That's an amazing memory, actually. Yeah.

• 1:35:49Trevor Noah?

  That's what, that's what I'm talking about.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:50Trevor Noah?

  The same way you preserving the artists.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Trevor Noah?

  The same way you preserve the memories, the moments, the, the human behind these things.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Trevor Noah?

  Do, do, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Like Quincy Jones, like Quincy Jones. He, he would invite me over, man, and sit there and talk to me about music and life. I mean, you know, you get to, he was like James Bond to me. You know, there's a certain people... You know, I got, you know...

• 1:36:13Trevor Noah?

  He had that vibe, we shared the same birthday, so he, he reached out to me because of that. That was the strangest thing, one of the strangest things in my life.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 1:36:20Trevor Noah?

  Quincy Jones just called me and then, and then he was like, it's not the same birthday, he was like, he called me and he's like, he says, "I heard you're a Pisces, young man", I was like, "I'm sorry, what's happening"? "Yeah, who, is Quincy Jones", then you're like, "Okay", it must be, cuz I can't think of any of my friends who can do a Quincy Jones impersonation.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  You never met me, young man.

• 1:36:37Trevor Noah?

  And he was just like, he was just like, "I heard you're a Pisces, young man", "When you're coming to say hi", that was a good, that was a good Quincy, actually. And he's, and then he would just like, he would nurture you, he wanted to tell you, like, just like what you can do, how you can grow, how you could... And he just shared, by the way, he didn't even have that, "Let me school you" feeling.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, it wasn't, it didn't come from that place. It didn't come from like some kind of condescending, no, no. He, he would, you know, I'd do a lunch with him, you know, a few times a year, like, maybe twice a year, you know, I'd go over there and just eat lunch with him and just talk with him and he'd just talk to me about history, talk to me about music, talk to me about, you know, you know, like, he introduced me to Frank Sinatra, you know what I'm saying? When Frank was on his final leg of his run in Vegas, he took me to the show, um, you know, introduced me to Frank Sinatra, like, it's like a lot of different, you know, the people I met. He was, he was a really special man, you know what I'm saying? He was a special, special guy, he was a really, he was, he was, um...

• 1:37:37Trevor Noah?

  One of a kind.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  You know, oh, man, he was one of a kind, man.

• 1:37:39Trevor Noah?

  He truly was.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:40Trevor Noah?

  You just made me realize something that's also unique for your situation. There are many hip hop artists who could look up to another hip hop artist, but in many ways, not denying the ones who came before you, there wasn't like a longstanding legacy that you could look to in that way, cuz it was a fledgling idea.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know what I did, I did, man.

• 1:38:01Trevor Noah?

  Who were your mentors in life? Who are the people you can remember? So Quincy's one of them, you know, but who are the people you remember?

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Giving me advice?

• 1:38:07Trevor Noah?

  And, and not just giving you advice, pushing you down a path that you otherwise wouldn't have gone down?

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Well, man, I tell you, there were a lot of people that I bumped into that were good. Obviously Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie was always very kind and gave me insights. Uh, but then there was, there was rap artists who are a bit older, who kind of just would tell me what not to do while they were doing it. I had a few of those too.

• 1:38:38Trevor Noah?

  That can sometimes be the most valuable thing on earth.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, you know, they'd be like, "Nah, the same for you, Al", and saved my life. I've had, you know, road managers, there was a time when, um, really early in my career where, for about a string of maybe, I don't know, maybe four shows, right before the show, I'd be like, "Yo, let me just get a little champagne", and, you know, I, and I, cuz I had the nerve, I used to go to the bathroom and all, "Yo, give me some champagne", and then I remember the one, there was like the fifth show, my road manager, my man Tony Rome, he just, you know, I was like, I had the bottle and I'm like getting the bottle, and he came and grabbed the bottle out my hand, he said, "No", he saw where it was going.

• 1:39:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, "It's not for you".

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  He snatched the bottle out my hand and that, you know, cuz that dependency, that's where it was going and he...

• 1:39:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  So a lot of it is, man, is, you know, the man upstairs, it's luck of the, there's a lot of luck in this thing, a lot of chance, a lot of luck. I think we put a, we put more emphasis on intellect, we over-rotate on intellect and, you know, underweight...

• 1:39:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Luck.

• 1:39:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  And chance and blessings. Like, I got lucky with a lot of stuff, right? Like, you know.

• 1:39:57Trevor Noah?

  Is, is that, is that why you, you're so strong in your faith?

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely, because I know that it didn't have to be this way. You know, I, you know, I could have been a lot of things. I could have been, I could have went to the Marines and, and because I wanted to be a general, or I could have been like one of the, the most notorious menaces to society that's ever existed.

• 1:40:20Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's a good thing that it went this way.

• 1:40:28Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Like, cuz it could have been, you know, I mean, think about, about a gray cigar, you look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way.

• 1:40:36Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place.

• 1:40:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we take that for granted.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, so, it's, it's kind of like that show, It's a Wonderful Life, the movie? It's a Wonderful Life, you know? It's, uh, one man can make a huge difference. You know what I mean? One man can make a huge difference, so, yeah. I have a lot of faith in God because I, I, I, I know, like, I know what it's like to, you know, when the, when bullets whizz by and you're hiding behind a snow mound like an idiot. You're hiding behind a snow mound.

• 1:41:09Trevor Noah?

  From a bullet.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  From bullets.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Like ducking behind a snow mound and dudes in the car, you know, like that kinda. So I know, you know.

• 1:41:23Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  And being in, you know, hanging out with guys and they're, you know, dropping nine millimeters on purpose just to see how you react. You know, loaded gun.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  Just to see, you know, where we at with it, you know what I mean? So it's like having all of that exposure too.

• 1:41:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Has made, and that's the other thing about my music and my career. Because I was exposed to so much.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Street stuff, fly on the wall, but still exposed to so much street.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Activity.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I tried to make music that got people like fall away, bro, because you know, it's like. You know, because from day one, I mean, the things I've seen have been crazy, like, you know.

• 1:42:16Trevor Noah?

  And you've, you've seen them in a real way. I think sometimes what people take for granted is.

• 1:42:22Trevor Noah?

  When I'll, when I'll read and listen to hip hop artists. Who were like then the beginning, depending on where they were in their lives. I find there's like a distinct split between the hip hop artists who were rapping about what they were experiencing and what they were. Hoping to experience. And then a different generation who now, and I don't mean this like old school, new school at all, I, cause it still applies today. And then you get other artists who sort of like rap about having. As opposed to like what they wanna have, and then they also rap about the idea of the thing, but not the thing itself, like they're not actually in it. But they rap about it as if they are in it. And, and then you, you see this in the smallest ways, like there's an interview of yours, I remember, I remember reading, it was a crazy one, it was, um.

• 1:43:07Trevor Noah?

  What was it? Maybe like Esquire, one of those, they do like one of those, those quick rapid fire ones. And, and the interviewer was very flippant with you and was just like, so who do you think killed Biggie? Who do you think killed Biggie and Puck? Your answer was like one of the most, it was so interesting. You answered it like a person who was around then. And you just, you, you, you almost like, and I'm reading this by the way, I don't, I don't even think there's footage, you almost like sit up in the chair and you go. You're like, what are you, what are you talking about? It was like, well, who do you think did it? Well, east versus west and who do you, and you were just like, yo, yo, yo, yo. You, you only talk like that because you weren't there. This is not like, I, I wasn't, this wasn't a game.

• 1:43:48Speaker 03

  It's not a game, yeah.

• 1:43:48Trevor Noah?

  This was a real thing that we were living, this is this thing, I, you wouldn't even ask me that question if you knew. And that's what I'm feeling from you, even when you're talking about these experiences.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Because you know what, life, man, like, like, I'll tell you, like, it's so funny and I'm, I'm kinda bringing it, but it's like. This whole process, man, like.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  I think we just have to learn to be a little more grateful.

• 1:44:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  And, um, a little bit more. Comfortable with the idea that things kinda worked out for some of us. You know what I mean? Cause we get real like.

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  Complacent.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  You know, you, you can start living in a bubble and start taking things for granted. There's real people out here with real lives and real problems, and it's not the highlight reel that the internet is showing you. It's not what TikTok and, and, and reels is showing you, it's like there's a real world out here. And, um, people are going through it, and so if you were blessed enough to escape that. You should be thankful, if you weren't born into that, you should be thankful, but you should always. At a minimum, have some sort of empathy.

• 1:45:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  For what's going on in the world. Now, now that empathy doesn't have to ruin your life, I'm not asking you to sacra- sacrifice yourself on the altar of martyrdom. For everything that goes wrong in the world, because you'll never be able to live.

• 1:45:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  Right? But at the same time. You should recognize that, you know what I mean? And I just, you know, like, it's so funny, like now we're shooting, I'm shooting NCIS New York in New York.

• 1:45:37Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  It's real different, different edge, different vibe, different, it's like people are probably like, most people are thinking, oh, it'll probably be the same thing. It's the universe, but it's so different.

• 1:45:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  It's all the little things, so, you know. It's, let's just be thankful, man, let's just be thankful, let's, let's have some fun, let's be thankful. Let's be glad that, you know, it's us three sitting here. And, you know, I'm the guy from New York, you guys came from South Africa and we vibing and it's for the right reason. As opposed to us sitting here, you know, we could be sitting here plotting on how to do something bad and crazy in the world. You know what I mean, like.

• 1:46:24Trevor Noah?

  Can, can I, can I tell you, you know, it, it's funny, you go back, you go back to the school conversation, but. I, I genuinely do think, I do, I do think this in society, I genuinely do think this.

• 1:46:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:34Trevor Noah?

  I always wondered to myself how much society loses by not harnessing the talents and ambitions. Of the people who end up going to do those heinous things.

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  Oh, let me tell you, I could, I love, I love that question, cause see, that they, I remember one time I was, um, you know, visiting Rikers Island. I was there, you know, cause I like to visit and talk to the, you know, some of the inmates and stuff and give them love and.

• 1:46:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  And, uh, and this kid was rapping and he was, sounds so crazy, was dope, his lyrics, everything is delivery, I loved it. I'm like, yo, man, you gotta do something, and he was like, yo, man, I got life, L.

• 1:47:10Speaker 01

  So he was on Rikers, but he was on his way upstate to do life. So what am I saying? I'm saying that, you know, you heard that term taking penitentiary chances?

• 1:47:19Trevor Noah?

  No, I've never heard that.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  It's kinda like people that, a lot of times the guys that. Are sitting in prison are some of the more courageous and the more willing to go for it. Group, they just may have been misguided or had the wrong, they needed wiser people around them or needed better guidance.

• 1:47:41Trevor Noah?

  I would even argue opportunities, I'll tell, I'll tell you why.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:44Trevor Noah?

  Because if those same guys, if you took that same personality, that same, that same everything.

• 1:47:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:49Trevor Noah?

  But you plonked them in Silicon Valley, don't be shocked when they're part of the next big startup. It, I, I believe, I genuinely believe it's the same thrust, it's just if I put you in the wrong place.

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:02Trevor Noah?

  The wrong outcome, it's not even you, I'm not even saying you need to change, I'm just saying if I.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  That's why they call it the trap, right?

• 1:48:08Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. If I give you, if I give you Legos and if I give you a gun. You are, you're gonna probably build something with Legos and you're probably gonna shoot something with a gun, is what I'm saying, and I don't, you get what I'm saying? And sometimes we make it about the people, but it's like, yes, but what are the things that are around? When we find a child playing with certain things, why do we take them away?

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:27Trevor Noah?

  We don't go like, I'm taking the knife away because I don't want my kid to be a serial killer, he's just like, yo, the knife means the kid's more likely to cut someone. No, play with this instead, because we go, this, this will, yeah, this will create, this will, it will nurture, it will grow, it will. But on a societal level, I, I, I just go like, man, how much have we wasted, how much do we continue to waste?

• 1:48:46Speaker 03

  I always think of it like this, it's, um, it's like a rocket upside down. Facing the right direction, it can go very high.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Yo, that's powerful.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  That's huge.

• 1:48:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  And you know, I always tell people, you know, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your system. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:49:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  So it's like, what's your system? You know, uh, it goes back to the exercise thing, or, you know. What's your system like, right? Like, what is your plan? What is your workout? What's the, are you being systematic in your life? So. When you think about a lot of, like, the reason I say that is because I want all of the people all over the world. To see the humanity in all people.

• 1:49:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  Not just in those who are more fortunate.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Because, because somebody was more fortunate doesn't mean they're more human.

• 1:49:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we literally.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  And we, we, we kinda have a tendency to equate success with humanity.

• 1:49:42Trevor Noah?

  We do.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  And the, the, the less successful you're perceived to be, the less human you are, which is really.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Kinda strange.

• 1:49:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  But it also tells another story, which is that. Part of being human is maximizing your potential.

• 1:49:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  So you are viewed as more human when you, when people perceive you to be more in line.

• 1:50:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  With what humanity is.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  With what you were meant to be.

• 1:50:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  It's, it's, you know.

• 1:50:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  Using this biological machine to its maximum capacity.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, baby.

• 1:50:13Speaker 03

  And I think, um, if you think about it, our capacity to love is unlimited, but we limited because of. Like you said, fear and expectations and what we think it can do for other people instead of what it can do for us, you know?

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That's absolutely true.

• 1:50:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  I agree with that, and also, you know, you know, there's a difference between being kind and being nice, right?

• 1:50:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Like, uh, uh, being nice is like, it's kinda a little bit of a dead end streak, cause you're doing it to, but being kind, you can tell the truth.

• 1:50:43Speaker 03

  It's the same as being loving or being love.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 03

  Cause when you are love, you are it, if you are loving, you are giving it.

• 1:50:49Trevor Noah?

  It's the action, yeah.

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  That's deep.

• 1:50:51Trevor Noah?

  The action versus the, it's.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  That's deep.

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:53Trevor Noah?

  When you, when you say the grateful thing, it, it really sticks to me, cause I think about your story and, you know, when you say like the, you know, it's, it's interesting when you say like the. The bullets whizzing by. Some people hear that and they, they, they think of it metaphorically.

• 1:51:09Trevor Noah?

  Even though it's a real thing, they still think of it as a metaphor from your life, but it's like, like it's a literal, literal, literal thing, like.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:51:18Trevor Noah?

  You know, I remember like reading your story and I was like, I actually wanted to ask you this on a personal level, I was like. Cause my, my mom was, was similar in that, you know, my, my stepfather shot my mom, right? She survived.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mother was shot, she, she, she survived.

• 1:51:34Trevor Noah?

  And the craziest thing was, my mom said to me, you have to learn how to forgive him.

• 1:51:43Trevor Noah?

  Don't hate him, and I was like, that's the cra- I was like, yo, you need to, you know?

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wow, I didn't know that about you.

• 1:51:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  So you can relate to that?

• 1:51:52Trevor Noah?

  More than relate.

• 1:51:55Trevor Noah?

  I, I remember like reading your story and the parallels and I was just like.

• 1:52:00Trevor Noah?

  I would say it has taken me at least the good part of a decade to understand why she was doing what she was doing, why she was saying what she was saying.

• 1:52:12Trevor Noah?

  But at the time, I just, you, because I was like this, you, you talk about you bump into somebody or something bumps into you that moves you in a different direction. My mom like knew in that moment, this thing could bump me

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  and

• 1:52:25Trevor Noah?

  in a direction where my mind and my perception in life will completely, you, you, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:52:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  You know, you know, it's interesting that, you know, the forgiveness thing is deep because it's like

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  just because

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  you have the power not to forgive, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

• 1:52:43Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, damn.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  And, you know, just because you're encouraged by your emotions not to forgive, doesn't mean you shouldn't. And, you know, a lot of times it's, uh,

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  I think we as human beings, we, we, we, we, we find it a lot

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  easier. For whatever reason, there's some sort of selfish reward that comes from holding on to pain.

• 1:53:13Trevor Noah?

  Of course.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know, I'm not quite sure what the reward is, but there's something, I don't know if it's

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  like, we like, it's almost like we like it, like we like the fact that we're not forgiving somebody.

• 1:53:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  We get a certain kind of pleasure and almost, maybe it makes them, us feel superior in some kind of hidden way, I'm not sure.

• 1:53:38Speaker 03

  The reward to

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  I, I'm sure somebody out there, who's a psychologist, out there could, could, could unpack that for me.

• 1:53:44Speaker 03

  The reward to hanging on to anger is, is the satisfaction of being right.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, something in that, in that, in that realm.

• 1:53:52Speaker 03

  Because if you forgive, you have to admit that you could have been wrong to hold on to the feeling.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  And that's not what you want.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:59Trevor Noah?

  I think to add on to that as well, as you were saying that, I was thinking it's also

• 1:54:06Trevor Noah?

  it's also the idea that it sort of makes it mean more.

• 1:54:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, you are right.

• 1:54:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Meaning.

• 1:54:14Trevor Noah?

  Because I think sometimes if you, if you, if you forgive somebody, you can feel like it doesn't now mean what it meant. Like, so when you don't forgive someone, you go, what did they do to you? Or what was hap, what happened? I'll never forgive them. They did this thing and it's like, and that

• 1:54:30Speaker 03

  And you have to explain what is the thing?

• 1:54:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, but it, but I think it's because we associate forgiveness with letting go of the meaning of the things. It's like, you, you know, like how people are, oh, I forgive you. And then what we interpret that as is, I've forgotten about it, it is now gone. But it doesn't mean that. And so I think sometimes what we're holding on to is, I can't forgive you because then I, I've lost the meaning of it.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  And you know, you know, what's deep is, see, that's why you gotta let go and let God, because if you go in your, if you go in the backyard and you dig a hole and you're angry at the hole and you put your fist in the hole, it can never quite fill up and heal again. But if you kind of back up off it, the leaves, the dirt, soil over time, it will, right?

• 1:55:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  So we have to kind of, we gotta let go and let God, because in a way, like, if you stay angry, then God is like, all right, well, you got that covered, because, you know, I don't need to deal with it, because you, you, you angry.

• 1:55:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, nature can't fill the hole if you, if you're keeping your fist in there.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  You gotta fill with anger, so I don't need to deal with that. You got that covered. But when you let go, then the universe can step in and say, okay, let's help out a little bit.

• 1:55:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  You know, we can, we can fix that and they'll get, they'll give you double for your trouble.

• 1:55:41Speaker 03

  There, there's one thing you can, you can hold on from the lesson of, of after you forgave, like you were saying, now if you let go, then you feel like you've lost the meaning, but one thing you can keep is the impact.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  Without a doubt.

• 1:55:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, the impact of what that thing did and shaped you. Yeah, yeah, goes into you and you know what it's all about. I watched this interview, they were talking to a forensic scientist and a person who investigates people who've gone missing and have been murdered.

• 1:56:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 03

  And then they were, they were saying, without saying much, I can always walk into a field and tell where the body is buried. Then they were like, how? He said, she said, um, if the shrubbery in that one patch is greener than the other parts, then it means something is underneath.

• 1:56:22Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 1:56:23Speaker 03

  The fertilization is abnormal. She said, the other part is, while, when soil is disturbed to insert a foreign object or bio object, it will never be flat again. So the indentation in the, in the dibbit will always be there. Because once it was compressed,

• 1:56:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:41Speaker 03

  disturbed, filled again, that compression took a long time to exist.

• 1:56:46Trevor Noah?

  You can't artificially

• 1:56:47Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  So the grass will grow.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  Even when it settles, it'll still

• 1:56:51Speaker 03

  Yes. So when they, when, when they take a serial killer that wants to play games with them and wants time out of prison just to take them on a drive about, she says, I just go in the field and I look and I look, those two telltale signs have never been wrong. And our lives are like that, I guess. We are like that field that was once, you know, flattened and plain and compressed. Things happen, things get taken out, you know, new experiences come in, a new book, a new friend, a new song, fill in the hole, but the dibbit is still there.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:18Speaker 03

  Yes, but what we do is we put crosses all over the field to remind ourselves of where the dibbits are, where the bodies were buried. So we always have to remember, you know, and sometimes some people come into our lives and ask us, what made you into this person? And then instead of just identifying the dibbit in the hole, we become that prisoner that takes them out on a drive about.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  And you know, it's deep, if you, and if you think about it, in, in, to, to add on to that metaphor, if you, if you forgive and then you really go out and you go out and you do good works and you go after your dreams, that compression can take place a lot quicker.

• 1:57:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  You know, and it can be back to normal.

• 1:57:56Speaker 03

  Faster.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, you know, by you, because God gets in it, nature gets in it.

• 1:58:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  And then that can take place, you know what I mean? So, because, yeah, like,

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  like having things in your past, they don't have to go away,

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  but it can be okay.

• 1:58:14Speaker 03

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:58:16Speaker 03

  And not to go away, but it can be okay.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it don't have to go away, but it can be okay. You can, you can let go and let God, you know what I mean?

• 1:58:23Speaker 03

  Wade Dyer loved this quote, I'm, I'm gonna portray it as well. He said, forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet gives to the heel that stepped on it.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:58:33Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn, that's beautiful.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  And I, and what's crazy is now we're in this world where it's like, like the flip side of that is,

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  I love this, um, this, this, this quote, and I forget the, the, the guy's name.

• 1:58:50Speaker 03

  Those are the best quotes.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  But it's

• 1:58:51Speaker 03

  The ones that you forgot who said it.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 1:58:53Speaker 03

  They become yours.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Power takes as ingratitude the writhing of its victims.

• 1:59:00Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, say that again?

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Power

• 1:59:02Trevor Noah?

  Power?

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  Takes as ingratitude the writhing of its victims. So in other words, like, if I, if I step on your throat and you, you, you struggle, you're disrespecting me.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  And so that's what we're dealing with a lot of times. People don't realize that.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  I step on your mouth, you bleed on my shoe and you're disrespecting me. You're disrespecting me.

• 1:59:32Trevor Noah?

  Yo, that applies to so many things in society. That, that, I can think of that in like abusive households. I can think of that in abusive systems. I can think of that in like oppressive sys, like

• 1:59:43Speaker 03

  People who go on strike.

• 1:59:44Trevor Noah?

  That's a crazy, crazy, yeah, to your point, that's a crazy concept.

• 1:59:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:59:47Trevor Noah?

  There's a company that's not paying its employees the money they deserve or they're supposed to get. The company, the employees say, we're not gonna come to work. And then the boss goes, how dare they do this to me? That's crazy, yo!

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Yo, that's, and we live with that on a daily basis. We live with that on a daily basis, you know what I'm saying? And, um, you know, so you know, it's, uh, you gotta know what you're dealing with, man, out here in the world, you know what I mean? It's, uh, and you still gotta find that thing there. So it's, it's navigating it, you know, it's, uh, we're all navigating.

• 2:00:23Trevor Noah?

  How have your kids changed how you navigated? What, what, what shifted in your life when, when that happened?

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  You know, I'll tell you, you know, it's funny, um, my kids, I had my kids early in my career, like started having kids early in my career.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  I lived the same way, like they didn't make, change me or not change me.

• 2:00:48Trevor Noah?

  I like that. Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 2:00:51Trevor Noah?

  No, I actually know what you mean.

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  You know, like, I had kids and I love them and I wanna make sure that they're good, but I'm, I'm still gonna go after my dreams wholeheartedly.

• 2:00:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you know what's funny is, so many parents don't realize that's the greatest gift they can give their kids. Because you're showing them what to be, not telling them what to be. Do, do, do you get what I'm saying?

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:01:10Trevor Noah?

  We talk about this all the time, people forget that your kid, when your kid, remember when you, you talked about this even on, on, on the podcast, like, when you realized, you thought that you staying around was the thing that your daughter needed. But then at some point she was like, yo, bro, can you let me, I need to go be with my friends, man. Like you're holding me back in a way, you're like

• 2:01:29Speaker 03

  Damn, wait, what?

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, right? So you gotta put your oxygen mask on in life, you know what I'm saying? Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, help your children, you know? And that goes for relationships too.

• 2:01:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  You, you, you want your relationship to last?

• 2:01:48Trevor Noah?

  You say that all the time.

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  Have some dreams and go after them.

• 2:01:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  Be sitting around, what you doing? What you, where you going?

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Why you going over there?

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Who's gonna be over there?

• 2:02:02Trevor Noah?

  I don't like the way you said it.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  I saw your girlfriend's story. Who else was over there?

• 2:02:12Trevor Noah?

  You know what just made me think of that?

• 2:02:23Trevor Noah?

  A dog in a car never barks at moving cars. But when it's on the, when the cars are just like, yeah. Do you have you noticed that? Yeah. It's like the way you just, that's what, the way you just said it made me think of that for some strange reason.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  Crazy, but it's, you don't, yeah, they do.

• 2:02:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because the dog is moving as well. It's like, yeah, all the cars are buzzing by the cars. But if the cars move and the dog's stationary. Yeah. Where you going? Who's gonna be there?

• 2:02:45Speaker 03

  So the girlfriend story.

• 2:02:48Trevor Noah?

  Yo, who else?

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Listen, man.

• 2:02:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, where you coming, hey?

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Yo, yeah, my thing is like, have a ball, man. Send me a postcard, man. Have a ball, man.

• 2:02:59Trevor Noah?

  Man, we had a, we had a ball, man. This was, yo, can I tell you?

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  Thank you, man.

• 2:03:03Trevor Noah?

  No, and I, and I appreciate it on so many levels. I appreciate it, one, you as the outside figure, the, the, you know, the father of a genre, like one of the pioneers who created something that we, we still appreciate till this day.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:03:16Trevor Noah?

  That's why I appreciate you. I appreciate you just as, you know, a human being, taking your time to come and show with us.

• 2:03:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:23Trevor Noah?

  But I also appreciate you as a fellow introvert, leaving your house, coming to hang out with us. No, because I, I appreciate that for real.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Nah, no doubt.

• 2:03:31Trevor Noah?

  Thank you so much, man.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  No doubt.

• 2:03:32Trevor Noah?

  This was, this was really.

• 2:03:33Speaker 03

  Thank you so much, my man.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  My man.

• 2:03:38Trevor Noah?

  That's how I'm gonna start singing. You gee.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  I'm Chilean, yeah. Ni Chile.

• 2:03:42Trevor Noah?

  Chelil.

• 2:03:43Speaker 01

  Chelil.

• 2:03:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you stretch that last part.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:48Trevor Noah?

  Stretch that last part.

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  Chelil.

• 2:03:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like I've been telling, you gotta stretch that out. Yeah.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  I like it, baby.

• 2:03:58Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by YouTube Premium.

• 2:04:03Trevor Noah?

  One of my favorite things about YouTube is that you never really know where it's gonna take you. You know, like, one minute, you're wondering why your computer gets so hot. The next moment, MKBHD and Cleo Abram have shrunk you down and taken you inside your computer. And now you're traveling through the motherboard, squeezing past transistors, moving through the heat sink, following these tiny pathways until 20 minutes later, you finally know what it feels like to be an overheating microchip. I have so much empathy now. Oh, then later on, you're out grabbing lunch. You're waiting for someone to finish making their order, you know, quinoa Buddha bowl, salmon salad with the extra little chips, whatever healthy thing they've convinced themselves is gonna change their life that afternoon.

• 2:04:49Trevor Noah?

  And while waiting, you remember, you've got a video downloaded on your YouTube Premium of Quinn Blackwell trying to feed Charlie XCX. Now you're in Quinn's kitchen, food is flying everywhere, Charlie's getting hungrier, Quinn's trying to hold the whole thing together, and you're enjoying all of this beautiful chaos while somebody quietly assembles your healthy bowl in the real world. By the time your food's ready, they're still going on. So you put your phone in your pocket, and in the background, the play keeps on going. It's background play, that's what it's doing. The video keeps going. You listen to the rest of it on your walk back, and then at the end of the day, you're home. You've done enough.

• 2:05:27Trevor Noah?

  You collapse onto the couch, you put on Anderson Paak's Tiny Desk Concert, and suddenly, he's in your living room, playing a private concert just for you and 20 of your closest friends. That's what I love about YouTube. In the space of one day, you've been shrunk down inside a computer, you've hung out in the kitchen with famous people, and now, one of the best musicians on earth is performing in front of you. Ah, the joys. Somewhere between all of that, real life kept happening. You had to get lunch, you had places to go, you can always be looking at your screen, but you know what? That's not an issue, my friends, not an issue at all. And that's why I love YouTube Premium.

• 2:06:09Trevor Noah?

  You can download something for later, put the screen away, keep listening, pick it back up, and watch it when you wanna do it, wherever you are. Whatever your day's doing, the experience can move with you. So if you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Visit youtube.com/premium to sign up now for your free trial. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime.

• 2:06:36Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Parduf. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

• 2:07:44Speaker 04

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