Should AI Be Open-Sourced? The Debate That Will Shape Everything w/ Mark Surman | EP #136

In this episode, Mark and Peter discuss why Open-Source is the future of AI, and how established companies should be thinking of AI. Recorded on Oct 15th, 2024 Views are my own thoughts; not Financial, Medical, or Legal Advice. Mark Surman serves as the President of the Mozilla Foundation. As President of Mozilla, he leads efforts to build a more open, equitable, and trustworthy internet, focusing on advancing ethical AI through initiatives like Mozilla.ai, a commercial AI R&D lab, and Mozilla Ventures, an impact venture fund. Previously, he spent 15 years as Executive Director of the Mozilla Foundation, growing it into a global force for digital rights, open-source advocacy, and internet health. A recipient of the prestigious Shuttleworth Fellowship, Surman has delivered keynotes on five continents and is regularly featured in major media outlets discussing the future of AI, open-source technology, and internet privacy. White paper on Public AI: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/ai/public-ai-counterpoint/ Creating Turstworthy AI: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/insights/trustworthy-ai-whitepaper/ Status Update on Creating Trustworthy AI White Paper: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/research/library/accelerating-progress-toward-trustworthy-ai/whitepaper/ Pre-order my Longevity Guidebook here: https://longevityguidebook.com/ ____________ I only endorse products and services I personally use. To see what they are, please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: Get started with Fountain Life and become the CEO of your health: https://fountainlife.com/peter/ AI-powered precision diagnosis you NEED for a healthy gut: https://www.viome.com/peter Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PETER at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Get real-time feedback on how diet impacts your health with https://join.levelshealth.com/peter/ _____________ I send weekly emails with the latest insights and trends on today’s and tomorrow’s exponential technologies. Stay ahead of the curve, and sign up now: Tech Blog _____________ Connect With Peter: Twitter Instagram Youtube Moonshots Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Peter Diamandis?

  For someone who hasn't really captured the idea of open source, what does that mean?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Most of the things you use today, whether that's made by Google, made by Amazon, made by Meta, or made by some startup, or made by some weird artist, or made by your cousin, in most cases, there's a bunch of open source underneath it.

• 0:18Peter Diamandis?

  What are the motivations for someone to build the open source?

• 0:23Speaker 01

  The mythological early open source motivation was, "Scratch my own itch. I'm using a piece of software. It doesn't do the thing I want it to do. So I'm going to modify it, or I'm going to build something. And like, I'm a nerd. I'm going to build a thing I want, share it with other nerds." And I think that is still a part of it.

• 0:39Peter Diamandis?

  Do you believe we actually have privacy?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Oh, it's such a tricky question. We struggle with, what is privacy now? We think privacy, what it means, has got to evolve.

• 0:55Peter Diamandis?

  Welcome to Moonshots. Today, we're going to be talking about the open source movement with Mark Sermon, who's the president of Mozilla Foundation. As president, he leads an effort to drive more open, equitable, and trustworthy internet, focusing on advancing ethical AI. What does that mean? What does open source mean? That's our conversation. We're going to be diving into a paper they just released called, "Public AI: Making AI Work for Everyone." I'm going to put the link in the show notes. And he also put out a paper recently on trustworthy AI. I'll put that in the show notes as well. So if you've wondered what open source means, if you've wondered how it's going to impact AI,

• 1:40Peter Diamandis?

  is Llama truly open source? You know, dive in with me here. All right, let's jump into conversation with Mark. And if you like this podcast and the people I'm bringing to you, please subscribe. All right. Welcome Mark Sermon. Before we get started, I want to share with you the fact that there are incredible breakthroughs coming on the health span and longevity front. These technologies are enabling us to extend how long we live, how long we're healthy. The truth is, a lot of the approaches are in fact cheap or even free. And I want to share this with you. I just wrote a book called Longevity Guidebook that outlines what I've been doing to reverse my biological age, what I've been doing to increase my health, my strength, my energy.

• 2:24Peter Diamandis?

  And I want to make this available to my community at cost. So longevityguidebook.com, you can get information or check out the link below. All right, let's jump into this episode. Mark, good to meet you in person, sort of, in this virtual world we live in.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Sort of in person, yeah.

• 2:42Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  As in person as most life gets these days.

• 2:45Peter Diamandis?

  It's crazy, right? We forget how convenient it is that we can live this virtualized life. And for me to have met you and have this conversation in the past, I would have had to literally jump in an airplane, fly to Toronto, in this case, New York, where you are right now. But we're living in this extraordinary world. So this conversation for me is an important one, and I think I want to dive deep to understand what you think of as the open source movement. What does it mean? Why does it exist? What are its advantages? And what are the trades, right? We hear about open source a lot.

• 3:27Peter Diamandis?

  I've had conversations in the past with Ahmad Mustak about this, with Elon Musk, with others. And as president of Mozilla Foundation, it's an area that you are advocating for. Let's jump straight in. What is, for someone who hasn't really captured the idea of open source, what does that mean?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I think at the very top level, it means that for the last 20 years, 25 years, however you want to talk about it, as we've started to build out, like billions of us, this digital world, that there is a set of Lego blocks that anybody who's capable of using them or wants to learn how to use them can build something out of. And I think that's a I'll define open source in a second, but I think that's really the key piece is that underpinning most of the things you use today, whether that's, you know, made by Google, made by Amazon, made by Meta, or made by some startup, or made by some weird artist, or made by your cousin. In most cases, there's a bunch of open source underneath it.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  And that open source underneath it is the Lego kit that has let so many creative people, so many startups, like go fast because they've got a bunch of stuff they can take for free to start building something. And then on top of it, they might build something that's closed, or they sell to you, or whatever. So I think in that Lego kit, I mean, there was a recent Harvard study that talks about open source over the last 20 years, creating $8 trillion in value. And so a critical part of the digital economy we're living in, with the creativity part and the money part of it, come from the fact that we have this Lego kit. And so like, what is, well, go ahead, Peter.

• 5:14Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, so we've got this, this, I think Lego kit's a great description of it. Chunks of software that are available for anyone to use without cost for free? Is it always for free?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's four, there's four things that it means. And it's not always like, always free as in beer, to use the old open source trope. It's free as in speech. And so the four things that make a piece of software open source are, you can use it without any encumbrance, you can use it without paying for it. You can study it, so that means you can look inside, it's transparent, you can see how it works. You can modify it, so you can turn something that you pick up into something else. And you can share it again. So sharing also means you can make money on top of it, as long as you're not charging for the thing itself. And so, you know, that's what makes something open source on your, on your knee. There's a lot of how does that play out in AI debate going on right now?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  And we can get to that, too, but that's the basics.

• 6:17Peter Diamandis?

  Mark, thanks, but let me dig a little bit deeper here because I really want to understand the core motivations and the core principles of open source before we dive into AI, which is equally important there. So what are the motivations for someone to build the open source software? Is it just curiosity and desire to help? And then one other part of the question I have, even the open source software that someone is building those Lego blocks right now, those are built using non-open source elements, right? I mean, at some point you go down and you're saying someone's paying for the bandwidth,

• 6:57Peter Diamandis?

  someone's paying for the compute, someone's paying for the stuff that DARPA spun out and then Microsoft took over, right? So it's not, as the old principle, it's not turtles all the way down. It's not open source all the way down. So there's some open source layers, right? So help me understand that and then the core motivations for people playing.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's important, and we'll get into this, I'm sure, to distinguish between it costs money and it's open source. So all the way down, there's stuff that costs money, including, you know, our, our time is worth something, even if, you know, we're not getting compensated in cash or the bandwidth, the compute, the DARPA, all this stuff. And in fact, in some ways, that cost of, in some ways, that cost of building it can either get privatized or can turn into public goods. And so that's the nice thing about the history of DARPA and the internet, right? Is this big public investment, which turns into these open protocols, not open source, but open protocols, which run the internet, which are public goods. And so they actually take public dollars, tax dollars, turn into something that actually

• 8:06Speaker 01

  is open, that everybody gets to benefit from. So I think we, we want to just be careful there. In terms of what are some of their motivations, they really vary. So if you think about what are some of those building blocks? Linux, or Apache, or Firefox, or Wikipedia, which is not software, but let's call it open source, I mean, it is open source, it's not software, or an OpenAI, open source AI model, like, like Olmo from the Allen Institute. There's a lot of motivations. I think the mythological, early open source motivation was, scratch my own itch. Right? I'm using a piece of software, it doesn't do the thing I want it to do, so I'm gonna modify it, or I'm gonna build something, and like, I'm a nerd, I'm gonna build the thing I want, share it with other nerds.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  And I think that is still a part of it, right? Is like, I just need to make a thing for myself, is really the heart of it. I think Linus Torvalds, when he started Linux, it was some combination of, I want a version of Unix that works the way that I want it to work, and I'm, I'm gonna make it. But then, you know, as you go on, it absolutely is maybe a more collective, or corporate, or even commercially-driven utility. It's to scratch my own itch, but at the level of a meta, or a Google, or an AWS, which is, I need a software stack that's gonna run my cloud computing platform, that I can build a social network on.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  And lowering the cost and increasing the reliability of that is my absolute goal. I don't wanna care about that, that thing, I just wanna make sure it works, and it costs me as little as possible, and that it's as flexible as possible. So that's why I say something like Linux, which is really under most of the things we use on the internet, in, in terms of cloud computing. Um, all of those companies I just mentioned put huge amounts of money or engineers back into Linux, because it's the plumbing. And if they all basically collectivize the cost of the plumbing, it becomes the standard, it just works, it's much cheaper than, you know, buying, you know, Solaris, or Windows

• 10:10Speaker 01

  NT, which don't exist anymore, the proprietary things from the past, or from building it themselves. So I think there's a, a next level of scratch the itch, which is, get the thing I want for cheaper, in a way that works for me, and collective effort is the way that that works. And then, you know, there is a an end where somebody's really building open source as a business strategy on its own. And so, you know, I'm red hat and I take a lot of stuff that's already been built and leveraging everybody else scratching the itch. I'm building some other open source to glue it together so it's easier to use Linux. And then I'm charging for software, or it's not for software, I'm not charging for software. I'm charging for support. I'm charging for other kinds of services that allow people to use what's free

• 10:55Speaker 01

  uh in a way that's more effective. So I think you kind of have the personal itch. You have the collective itch or the kind of infrastructure play. And then you have, you know, an open source business.

• 11:05Peter Diamandis?

  So it's going to be interesting as we dive into the conversation around AI. Uh, and I know I'm excited to hear your your thoughts. You recently wrote a paper called Public AI, Making AI Work for Everyone. And I want to dive into that because there's been a lot of advocacy for open source and transparency in AI. And at the same time, there's been a lot of, um, how do I put it? Uh, giga dollars put into the field. A lot of capital flowing in. It's an expensive uh and energy intensive field. So I want to understand how the two can coexist.

• 11:46Peter Diamandis?

  You know, how do you make it happen fast enough, safe enough, um, with the proper motivations? And how do you get the smartest people, sort of the meritocracy, to work on it uh with the right incentives? So this is going to be our conversation for those listening who want to understand where we're going to go. And I'm going to play both the fan and a skeptic on both sides of the equation, Mark, if you don't mind.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Please.

• 12:13Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah. So, uh, you know, I've started, um,

• 12:18Peter Diamandis?

  I don't know, seven or eight nonprofits over the years. And I've sworn that I'm never going to start another nonprofit. And the reason for that is the inefficiency of what I see as nonprofits. And, you know, I run, I'm executive chairman of the X Prize, which I think is a highly efficient, leveraged, you know, we put up, we, since we've launched thirty prizes over thirty years, six hundred million dollars in competitions. But we've got to just struggle day in and day out to raise the money to convince somebody, either with in-kind or time or donations to fund us.

• 13:00Peter Diamandis?

  Versus, you know, build a business that is churning, you know, revenues and I reinvest it. I've had an argument for years that Google, even though it's a for-profit, has done such extraordinary benefits for humanity, making, you know, knowledge, leveling the playing field, making it accessible, democratized and demonetized around the world. That if you tried to create that kind of capability in a nonprofit, I don't think it would, I don't think it would have been possible, given the amount of capital it needed.

• 13:39Peter Diamandis?

  So how do you, so by the way, you can make the point first off that open source doesn't mean nonprofit, just to, just to begin there.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  You made it for me, Peter. You made it for me. So, I mean, open source doesn't mean nonprofits. We go back to your original question of like, you know, how does, maybe I'll take as implicit, open source compete or, or provide value or whatnot. You know, in a world where there's so much money on compute, it's so expensive to do this, we need the brightest minds, all of that. And I, I think the answer is twofold. One, You know, our vision of open source and certainly, you know, public AI, which is this broader concept, which we can get to in a little bit, isn't that it's exclusive from, you know, proprietary or closed things. Open source has always done well in a world where it is a counterpoint, a compliment, right? Or something actually that comes a little bit later and

• 14:31Speaker 01

  replaces some commercial innovation. So Linux really is the server operating system and you don't have the Solaris's and the Windows NTs. And that's because it just becomes such a commonplace thing that it kind of commoditizes as open source. So it's, you know, it's not to say open source exclusively. And then on that question, like, how does that get financed? Or how does it come to be? Because it's not going to just be somebody in the basement who's going to create the Linux of the AI era, although lots of those people are doing cool stuff. You already see with with Llama, for example, that Meta sees a very clear interest in Nvidia, who's helping them, and lots of other companies who are in the open

• 15:13Speaker 01

  source AI space and IBM, us, that the idea of moving early to commoditize and collectivize what is effectively becoming commoditized infrastructure, like a lot of what, I mean, I think you see the core innovations of transformers and LLMs are going to become pretty commonplace. They become commoditized.

• 15:37Peter Diamandis?

  Isn't it crazy that the world's most powerful technology is effectively free?

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:43Peter Diamandis?

  I mean, that just blows my mind. I mean, if you'd gone back a decade and said, listen, you're going to have these things called large language models, and you're going to be able to ask any questions, ask it to create video clips, images, and it's perfect. And it's like the world's knowledge is at your fingertips and it's got.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  And that a company like Meta is actually putting it out there for free, where the others are putting it there for free.

• 16:07Peter Diamandis?

  How much would you have, how much would you have guessed a decade ago that a license to that for an individual would cost, right? I mean, it's insane. It's free.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Well, what's interesting actually is a decade ago, if I'd imagined this technology, I would have imagined it was free. Two years ago, I would not.

• 16:26Peter Diamandis?

  Uh huh.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  So I think we were actually in a moment as ChatGPT exploded, where it looked like all this stuff was going to be thrown behind APIs. Nobody was going to release it all because there's a lot of open source that still is today. In AI, all the way along, it means it's how the innovation moves so fast, is you have researchers, scientists talking to each other, writing papers, sharing their code. So 10 years ago, five years ago, I would have imagined there's a lot. And I think we got to a moment where really stuff got enclosed and locked down. You think about OpenAI taking the transformer paper, innovating, really boxing everything up, productizing it, which is good in terms of end user value.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  And really move quickly that, you know, Llama was able to kind of get out there and, you know, provide basically the same thing. Because I think you see that Meta is playing the Linux version of that or the Linux play.

• 17:26Peter Diamandis?

  I was just saying, what's Zuck's motivation here? Is it catching up? Is it just taking a sort of adjacency that that gives him a larger fan base or a different user base? Why did he do that?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I think Zuck's motivation is the same motivation I put money into Linux is I'm not, if I'm Meta in the LLM business, I'm not trying to be OpenAI. I'm in the metaverse business or the social media business or whatever business they're going to be in. And I need this current generation of technology to work as reliably and as at low cost as possible. So they put a ton of money in upfront. It's a big risk to be the, you know, try to have Llama be the Linux of the LLM era. But I just saw an interview with Jensen and Zach where, you know, Nvidia is supposedly putting 200 engineers into Llama.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And so I think the idea is if it becomes the standard, everybody pitches in and it's a kind of Linux play. And so that's the motivation. I think that the tricky thing about Llama and Meta with that is they've put in this thing that makes Llama, in our view, not open source, which is this weird license piece that says at 700 million users, it's no longer free for you anymore. It's no longer open source. And open source licenses don't have those caps. It kind of breaks the covenant of open source. Like, imagine if Zach had built Facebook on Linux, and when he hit 700 million users, Dennis Torvalds like shows up in Palo Alto, knocks on his door.

• 19:03Peter Diamandis?

  With a bag.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  It doesn't work that way. And so I actually do think it's a, other things will emerge, and this is actually gets to your question about nonprofits in a second, that will be pure play open source, and that will actually become the dominant infrastructure.

• 19:22Peter Diamandis?

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• 20:06Peter Diamandis?

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• 20:50Peter Diamandis?

  health. If you want to join me on this journey, go to viome.com/peter. I've asked Naveen Jain, a friend of mine, who's the founder and CEO of Viome, to give my listeners a special discount. You'll find it at viome.com/peter. Before we go any further, I'd love you to give us a little bit of a background on Mozilla Foundation. It's the context which you come, it's the work that you're doing, and I think folks should have a little background here. Please.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting, because we get back to that question of motivation. Mozilla started in 1998. I wasn't around. I was a fanboy from the outside as the open source project on top of the Netscape browser source code. So Netscape was losing to Internet Explorer. They'd been the first big browser after Mosaic.

• 21:41Peter Diamandis?

  I remember it well.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  And so they thought, well, if we put it out there, maybe other people will run with it. And you did have Red Hat and Sun and IBM, a bunch of other people contributing to the open source version of Netscape, which was called Mozilla. But what really drove it was, for about five years, before Mozilla Foundation even existed, it was just really a bunch of hackers around the world trying to beat Microsoft. And so actually, the motivation question was, these guys stole the web from us. The old guys didn't even want to have the web. They didn't believe in it. And then now that 98% of browser market share, they've got ActiveX, so you can only use webpages really on Windows or inside of Internet

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Explorer. And so there was an army of very angry geeks that said, "Microsoft, you don't own the internet. We're going to show you." And eventually, it takes them five years, they get from this clunky Mozilla browser that was just a kind of a slightly evil version of Netscape to Firefox. And Firefox is the kind of breakout of like, let's make it small, let's make it sexy for people, let's put in pop-up blockers, and let's make it sure it does JavaScript really well, which sounds boring today, but was radical, because what it became was the thing that allowed people to develop interactive web apps instead of dumb web pages. And the joke kind of goes like, what's the best version of Firefox

• 23:11Speaker 01

  ever released? Internet Explorer 7. Because that's the one that had JavaScript in it. And, you know, until you had all the browsers working with JavaScript and Ajax, you couldn't do Gmail, you couldn't do Facebook, you couldn't do Twitter. So that was the set of people that really wanted the web to be open.

• 23:29Peter Diamandis?

  So Firefox makes a emergence and it takes on market share from Internet Explorer. But then Chrome comes along and begins to dominate. And what was it that, why didn't Firefox dominate? And why did Chrome, what allowed Chrome to come in with such fury?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Well, the cheeky second answer to the joke about Firefox is the best version of Firefox ever is Chrome. Because really, the goal of Mozilla is that the whole system is open. And of course, we need to have enough market share, which we don't today with Firefox, if you ask me, to be influential in our values. So the other thing about Mozilla is it wasn't just that kind of passionate set of people who wanted to counteract Microsoft that, you know, only focused on a browser. They had a bigger dream, they had the Mozilla manifesto. And that was really about the internet being in service of all humanity. And so, you know, the idea is we've got enough openness to shift the market

• 24:35Speaker 01

  towards being open and towards the kind of the tech working for people.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  And I would say, you know, Chrome came as a third real platform after Internet Explorer and Firefox. That was a boon. There was a period where we really lost the ball in terms of keeping up with the tech. And it's a, it's a lesson that is if you want to have this mission, and it's, it's going to be true now in AI, of making sure that the tech has certain values, you also have to be on top of the tech being great. And we didn't always stay on top of that.

• 25:09Peter Diamandis?

  Isn't it true you also have to be ready for verticalization? I mean, Chrome has succeeded, as has Gmail, as has Android and a thousand other things, Maps, because Google was large enough to verticalize and build interdependencies on these things that made it super convenient for folks to use.

• 25:34Peter Diamandis?

  And I can imagine we're going to see even more of that with AI in that verticalization, that deep stack up and down the user experience.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an interesting question about where verticalization, which is a natural tendency and ultimately monopolization, which is something we don't want and is illegal in our society.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  You know, that's a tendency that will emerge from companies that is trying to get as much market share and as many things as possible. And disruption interacts because Microsoft also found, you know, to be a monopolist in its era had totally verticalized, right? They own the server room, the databases, they're trying to own the content, they certainly own the browser, they own the Office suite, all of that stuff, and they get disrupted by the web. And so one of the interesting questions is, you know, the web era and the smartphone era are verticalized as well. There's real tendencies towards that verticalization in, you know, in the AI era. I mean, Gemini actually, even being late to the game, I think has a real advantage

• 26:40Speaker 01

  being built into all of the Google suite.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  What will come to disrupt that? And is it, you know, have we gotten so far along that disrupting the verticalization becomes so hard or almost impossible? It's a really critical question right now.

• 26:56Peter Diamandis?

  You know, I, call me cynical, but I think every single company and every single product eventually becomes disrupted because

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Let's hope.

• 27:06Peter Diamandis?

  they become comfortable, right? I'll never forget about six years ago, Jeff Bezos goes on an investor call and says, "Yes, in 30 years, Amazon will not exist anymore," or some quote like that, right? Saying, I don't know if he's trying to scare his employees or just dock his stock price, but it's, everything gets disrupted, right? FedEx, I mean, the dominant, you know, overnight carrier as we see what Amazon has built.

• 27:35Peter Diamandis?

  Now, one of the questions is, there is a situation where a company, a for-profit company with a great leader, motivated employees, just do a better job.

• 27:49Peter Diamandis?

  And and they can reinvest and they can as a meritocracy just continue to increase their capabilities. And yeah, you don't, I mean, there's a difference between monopolistic behavior and being a monopoly. Right? If you have the best product in the world and everyone loves it and and guess what? You know, you've got 99% market share.

• 28:18Peter Diamandis?

  Is that a monopolistic behavior? Or is it a monopoly? Or is it, are you just providing a fantastic product and service?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  This is a tricky question before the courts on a number of topics, including

• 28:30Peter Diamandis?

  Right now.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Search, right? It's a, it's a great product. So I mean, that's, that I guess for as we evolve our monopoly laws for, for us to, to figure out. Ultimately, what you want from antitrust regulation is competition and the opportunity for people to come in and disrupt.

• 28:48Peter Diamandis?

  Sure.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And similarly, and that's where I know that you're being cynical. I think you're being hopeful when you say ultimately every company is going to

• 28:54Peter Diamandis?

  No, I, I believe it because every company gets fat, dumb and happy to some degree. And new technologies constantly, I mean, that's the laws of physics or technology. We just have constant, you know, we're in a super exponential period. And yeah, I'd say the day before something is truly a breakthrough. It's a crazy idea. And we get disrupted by crazy ideas that a company that's reporting on a quarterly basis is unwilling to take. But some entrepreneur someplace is willing to, they have nothing to lose, so will take the bet. And oh my God, that's incredible.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Well, probably the, maybe five or 10 years before, not the day before, and that it takes

• 29:41Speaker 01

  But I think your point is, your point is right. One of the things I want to pull out, and it goes back to a question I didn't answer earlier, but also on this, like, companies are going to want to grow in this way. Is there also is a question of disruption to one end, right? So some people will come in and disrupt because they've got a great idea. They want to build a company. And like capitalism and companies are great at solving certain problems and creating public good and even public goods. You know, things that are shared in home and contributing to Linux, all that stuff. But there also are things to your question like not starting a nonprofit. The companies are just never going to be good at. And so that's where when we talk about public AI as a counterpoint.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  I don't think that a company is ever going to be good at what has happened with Linux, which is a collective public good that all, you know, that all the companies who build on it and researchers and everybody governments build on top of. And for all it's a pain in the ass and Linux foundation struggles with getting enough members. That is a form of social organization that lends itself to, you know, being an independent third party. And unless you want to get rid of governments altogether, I mean, that's another form of social innovation that has its.

• 30:58Peter Diamandis?

  I would call myself a libertarian capitalist, so that's where I bend towards.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm an old punk anarchist and so, you know, sometimes we'll have some common cause there. But I think that the thing is, you know, what social forms of social organization are helpful to what innovation and accelerating what innovation. So, you know, do you, are we happy that in addition to NBC, ABC, CBS, we also had PBS in the broadcast era? I think it took on a role that the commercial players were never going to take on. And so to me, the question at any point.

• 31:37Peter Diamandis?

  But innovation comes in and YouTube comes online.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Great. And then you don't need PBS or DBC or CBS.

• 31:46Peter Diamandis?

  Exactly. And so when we have a government formed provider, right? I would rather have complete and total open access for anybody to provide whatever they want.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  But that comes later in the process. And I think the question to always be asking is, what's not going to happen if you just leave it to the market?

• 32:11Peter Diamandis?

  I think that's a very fair and a very important question for humanity's benefit. Everybody, I want to take a short break from our episode to talk about a company that's very important to me and could actually save your life or the life of someone that you love. The company is called Fountain Life and it's a company I started years ago with Tony Robbins and a group of very talented physicians. You know, most of us don't actually know what's going on inside our body. We're all optimists until that day where you have a pain in your side, you go to the physician in the emergency room and they say, listen, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you have this stage three or four going on. And, you know, it didn't start that morning.

• 32:54Peter Diamandis?

  It probably was a problem that's been going on for some time, but because we never look, we don't find out. So what we built at Fountain Life was the world's most advanced diagnostic centers. We have four across the US today and we're building 20 around the world. These centers give you a full body MRI, a brain, a brain vasculature, an AI-enabled coronary CT looking for soft plaque, DEXA scan, a GRAIL blood cancer test, a full executive blood workup. It's the most advanced workup you'll ever receive. 150 gigabytes of data that then go to our AIs and our physicians to find any disease at the very beginning when it's solvable.

• 33:38Peter Diamandis?

  You're going to find out eventually. Might as well find out when you can take action. Fountain Life also has an entire side of therapeutics. We look around the world for the most advanced therapeutics that can add 10, 20 healthy years to your life and we provide them to you at our centers. So if this is of interest to you, please go and check it out. Go to fountainlife.com/peter. When Tony and I wrote our New York Times bestseller, Life Force, we had 30,000 people who reached out to us for Fountain Life memberships. If you go to fountainlife.com/peter, we'll put you to the top of the list. Really, it's something that is, for me, one of the most important things I offer my entire

• 34:22Peter Diamandis?

  family, the CEOs of my companies, my friends. It's a chance to really add decades on to our healthy lifespans. Go to fountainlife.com/peter. It's one of the most important things I can offer to you as one of my listeners. All right, let's go back to our episode. So I want to jump into your public AI, making AI work for everyone. And I pulled out five points, and I'd love to dive into them a little bit. I think that entrepreneurs listening to our conversation here, this is, you know, there are a few different debates going on in the AI world. One is, will, you know, digital superintelligence destroy humanity? That's a great debate. Not

• 35:07Peter Diamandis?

  going to have that conversation right now. Will it pull all the jobs?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I'm happy to have it, but thank God we're not having it.

• 35:13Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, will AI go pull our jobs? Will it help us create longevity and fusion? The answer is yes, but we'll get back to that later. But the question of how do we assure safety and transparency and who's responsible for that? I mean, these are fundamental questions. So here's the first point I've written down, and let's discuss what this means. So AI development is dominated by commercial interests. Why is that a bad thing? Or is that a good thing?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Well, I think that commercial interests are a part of driving the innovation is a great thing. And, you know, you often have these dances, if you think about the internet overall, between, you know, non-commercial research, like deep innovation. So whether that's DARPA and the internet, or CERN and the web, that then, you know, you actually figure out what to do with it. And there's a lot of commercial drivers of innovation from there. And then, you know, often afterwards, there's a role for what is a commercial player not doing? Where, you know, you take Firefox, or Wikipedia, or Linux as examples where the nonprofit players come and play a really hugely socially and economically beneficial role. So fast forward

• 36:35Speaker 01

  to today in terms of AI, I think it's great, the amount of commercial innovation that is happening. Commercial dominance is a different thing than commercial innovation. And so it's where what we see and want to accelerate is that there also is a public option that complements it, not, you know, just at a kind of motherhood and apple pie, but because it is really important in doing the things we talked about before. What won't the market do on its own? And so some of the things the market won't do on its own is I don't think it'll pay attention to safety in a way that is actually broad enough for us to be safe. I think people trying to corner the market on safety is actually a dangerous.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  I mean, you might get some good stuff out of it, right? But if we actually want to protect humanity, the idea that there's one or two vendors or 10 vendors, like cornering the market on safety is a dangerous game for humanity. Having it open where a lot of different players can pitch in on safety, see how stuff works under the hood, I don't think the market is going to drive that on its own. And that's a key piece.

• 37:44Peter Diamandis?

  I agree with you, it's a key piece, but isn't that the role of the government versus open source or any particular company? You know, when I'm, when I think about why governments should exist and not, and where are they not overreaching? And this is a delicate balance. Safety for the population, it represents for me, whether it's safety from armed forces or police or regulation, is like the most fundamental thing I think a government should provide. Do you agree with that?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And we haven't figured out, although I think we're actually zooming towards it. If the American political system worked at all, it would be easier. Finding that, having that, having that regulation is the role of government. What are the guardrails? And, you know, you take something like the evolution of transportation. I'm happy there are traffic laws and safety laws, and that is the proper role of government. And building cars is the proper role of the private sector.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Public transportation is a thing, you know, that kind of sits in between. So I agree, providing safety, absolutely, you know, regulating the guardrails on safety, absolutely the role of the government. But you jump to AI. One of the critical things I believe and we believe in those regulations working is transparency and the ability for people to collectively tackle the safety problems in order to comply with those regulations. And so the whole history of open science and everybody looking together to drive AI forward, you know, with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow, you know, that old open source principle. To me, that's actually the more likely going to produce an outcome that lines up with that regulation.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  It's not the government's job to do the implementation. On the flip side, on the flip side, having a few people try to corner the market in compliance with those regulations and what safety is and lock it all down. Some of those could be useful players, but I don't think that's enough to keep us safe.

• 39:57Peter Diamandis?

  My bent again is towards entrepreneurs to solve problems. You know, I think about, you mentioned transportation. I think about the, you know, in the space industry, which is my earlier part of my life, you know, it was Lockheed and Boeing, sort of the large defense contractors that were launching humanity into space. And here comes, you know, and they were dominant by, by far, right? And the government is building the space shuttle under contractors. And then here comes Elon as a disruptor and captures 99% of the market, right? And the other companies will go, the only reason the companies exist is the government

• 40:39Peter Diamandis?

  likes having a second supplier in place. But we'll see, we'll see Relativity Space and, and Bezos with Blue Origin come in and those will become the second suppliers.

• 40:55Peter Diamandis?

  But I don't think you could have ever gone to the level of innovation and brilliance in a governmental program or a governmentally driven program. It was like just getting the very best people on the planet and forcing them or focusing them to take huge risks in innovation. So the question is, can you get that speed and energy in open source? Or is it some segments of open source and not others?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think open source and governments are different. So I think the role of governments is either to create guardrails or to fund public goods. And so in a certain way, you think about DARPA, funding public goods. I mean, you got a lot of innovation and to some degree, speed, although it's a long game, you know, and the government's playing that funding public goods role. You can get that in open source. I do think the role of open source often though is after some of the high-speed entrepreneurial innovation happens. So, you know, you see Linux comes like 10 years, a half a generation after Solaris or Windows NT, and it's like, we want a different thing. We want to collectivize this and make it infrastructure. Firefox comes 10 years after Netscape.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Wikipedia comes 10 years after Encardan, but if you still have one of those CD-ROMs, you know, you get a prize. But, you know, I think the role of open source is actually to create often the more malleable public good version of what has been driven by commercial innovation.

• 42:29Peter Diamandis?

  So on this first point of AI development is dominated by commercial interests, is there, so that is a truth and is continuing, should that be dissuaded? Should that be, you know, so the answer is, so what? And what do we do about it is the question?

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, and the so what is, you won't get to the public goods you need in terms of keeping the market open for smaller players, in terms of researchers, in terms of safety. I think you need open source and truly open source that operates in a kind of way that we all, we all have access to and doesn't get cut off at seven, eight, nine, 10 years.

• 43:09Peter Diamandis?

  But if the open source, if the open source movie doesn't...

• 43:11Speaker 01

  But let me say why.

• 43:12Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, yeah, please.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  So I think in the so what...

• 43:14Peter Diamandis?

  And how, if you would, and how that should go about?

• 43:17Speaker 01

  So the why is things like, maybe I already talked about them. We have the Lego box for this era. We've got the ability to have transparency for safety. How, you know, maybe corporate players actually even drive that? And I think them, corporate players, I have a little two by two matrix I have, which is like, open, closed, private, you know, commercial, public. And you see different people, you know, kind of down in the commercial but open, you have Meta trying to play. I think that's good. In the long run, I also want to make sure there's stuff that is kind of owned in common. So you have people like the Allen Institute, which was set up by Paul Allen before he died. Allen Institute for AI.

• 43:58Peter Diamandis?

  Which he made, which he made the money to fund that from a monopolistic activity.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you have, you have a tax system that supports philanthropy in America. So that's what is supposed to happen. And so, you know, he really believed in open AI, he really believed in open source AI. And you have an amazing guy, Ali Faradi, leading that. I think that could become the Linux or the Linux Foundation of this era. And so, you know, both of those are useful players to kind of have out there. I do think one of the critical things that we're missing right now is in every Western country, you're seeing huge amounts of money being thrown at compute. Or huge kind of looking at how are we going to deal with energy and AI?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  And to me, we really should make sure that those government dollars go to public goods. So if I'm giving you huge amounts of compute as a researcher, or even as a company, that should produce open source at the other end of the process. If public dollars pay for it, public goods should come out the other end.

• 45:04Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, I, Iman Mustak has made a, you know, a statement which I really liked, which is, this is infrastructure. This is fundamental. The compute is fundamental infrastructure for every country. And every country should own its own models and its own infrastructure. I mean, it's going to become oxygen, electricity for information.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I think it's, I agree with him a hundred percent that it's infrastructure and it's not just the compute. It's, it's the models, it's the whole stack. We did a big paper on that with a bunch of other people, including Jan Le Cun was a, was a part of it at an event last year or earlier this year. And one of the things I would be really careful of is not to think that it's national sovereignty, but actually, you know, I think the democracies of the world, building the system that is open and controlled by them. And you're gonna have the Spanish language law, you can have the Spanish large language model, or the Italian, or the French, or whatever, on top of a shared pool of infrastructure,

• 46:09Speaker 01

  which is effectively AI-built, that is open source and for democracy. But I actually think that that infrastructure is something that, as a set of countries in the world that have a certain set of values, we want that collectively that we can all lean on.

• 46:24Peter Diamandis?

  Where do you come out in the discussion? Like, we need to go as rapidly as we can because we're in a fundamental race with China. And that fast as we can is gonna be, you know, government and investors pumping money into for-profit companies that have employed the smartest people on the planet. And this is a race for the, for, you know, the free, principles of freedom.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  So I agree, we gotta go as fast as we can to build a technological society, including an AI stack, that is driven by freedom and pluralism and, you know, values that I hold dear. And I think private companies are a part of it. I also think public AI is central to it. I mean, we talk about public orientation, public use, public goods. And that public orientation is, you know, how do you put the intent of pluralism and democracy into the design of these products and test against it over time? Which is about safety, which is about who gets to contribute, all those things. There's a great book, or I mean, it gets only a digital book, which maybe that's all that matters right now, by Audrey Tang, who was the digital minister for Taiwan,

• 47:34Speaker 01

  talking about you actually... Can build, I mean, they basically have, you know, people who are very focused on private wealth and China, which is very focused on a particular totalitarian approach, shaping AI in their own image. And what we don't have is a high-speed, fast approach to how do we build democratic pluralistic AI. And I'm kind of kind of buy into that is yes, go fast and go fast not just to back, you know, somebody owning the market in the West, but go fast towards something that is a set of players building something that supports democracy and pluralism and you make money off of it.

• 48:15Peter Diamandis?

  Real quick, I've been getting the most unusual compliments lately on my skin. Truth is, I use a lotion every morning and every night religiously called OneSkin. It was developed by four PhD women who determined a 10 amino acid sequence that is a senolytic that kills senile cells in your skin. And this literally reverses the age of your skin. And I think it's one of the most incredible products. I use it all the time. If you're interested, check out the show notes. I've asked my team to link to it below. All right, let's get back to the episode. I mean, there is a scenario where companies and the meritoc- the best meritocracies are

• 48:58Peter Diamandis?

  attracting the very best people with the most capital, the most compute, are building the best systems, and then the government becomes a user of those systems to support its people. In the same way that NASA didn't build, you know, Starship, you know, kudos to Elon for Flight 5, but is going to become one of the largest users of Starship. So can we deliver on the public good?

• 49:30Peter Diamandis?

  With private, private models and private companies?

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think there's always going to be stuff that private companies don't do. And there are private companies who play totally in a black box, like OpenAI. And private companies that play in a way that for their own interest also benefits the public good and creates public goods, like Meta is with Lama. And so I, I think there's a, you have to take a nuanced view of how do you get to that stuff? And our view is you want both commercial and government and nonprofit or open source community players, all pushing towards this kind of pluralistic, open, you know, and public AI auction alongside everything else, not too exclusive, you know?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Alongside everything else, it's not exclusive.

• 50:22Peter Diamandis?

  I, I, I get it and I agree.

• 50:27Peter Diamandis?

  And as long as, you know, again, the government is not mandating, but it's enabling the emergence of those, of those resources, of those, you know, open source teams and perspectives and so forth, I mean, that makes complete, complete sense. Can I ask another question? Because I think privacy is one of the main, is a big driver for, for Mozilla, yes?

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 50:59Peter Diamandis?

  Do you believe we actually have privacy?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Oh, it's such a tricky question. So privacy is a core in the, you know, it's something like an individual's privacy and security is sacrosanct. It doesn't quite say sacrosanct, but is in the Mozilla manifesto. It's one of the core tenets.

• 51:15Peter Diamandis?

  I know.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  And it, and we struggle with what is privacy now? Because we, for us, privacy was make a browser that collects no data about anybody and minimize data as, as much as possible. And we all know you can't make digital things now without data. I mean, it's, it's as fundamental, more fundamental than code. That's what AI is, right? And so what is privacy in that context? And, and so that's a thing to work through. I, I do think it is. Built to go back to the question of like, public orientation or building in values. And looking at how you build technology, AI technology,

• 51:56Speaker 01

  that doesn't unduly expose information about you or lets you opt into things that are more private. So you see that with Apple Intelligence in trying to do more stuff on device and lean in that direction where it doesn't mean I'm a completely private individual, but there's some stuff I want to keep close to myself. And we've actually funded through Mozilla Ventures, a company who's building the, basically the open source equivalent of Apple Intelligence called Flower AI. So we, we think privacy, what it means has got to evolve. It's got to have a lot more to do with sort of how you think about privacy in your physical life, which is, oh, I'm going to close the blinds, or I'm going to talk a little quieter.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Like, we, there have to be ways that we can express a desire to be seen and less seen in the digital world we're building.

• 52:48Peter Diamandis?

  I just, you know, it's, it, what, it hits me is I've got Whispered, so she hasn't come alive, you know, Alexa listening. Um, and she's listening all the time, right? I've got, I've got Siri here listening all the time. You can have an AI with a camera read my lips from, you know, a hundred meters away. You can shake my hand, grab a couple of skin cells and sequence them. So, you know, I think to some degree, you know, privacy is an illusion that we like to believe in. And the question is-

• 53:19Speaker 01

  It's one of the reasons we talk about trust and trustworthy AI as well. Because you can build that into the technology that the stuff is local, or the camera is turned off, or the, whatever. And do you trust? And do you trust or have enough control yourself to believe that that's true? So there's constraints that can be put on all the things you just talked about. And a lot of it is either I fully control it, which is pretty hard in today's connected world as you're super technical and willing to kind of put yourself on a very, you know, in an island. Or you trust the, the parties that are providing.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And that's what Apple is good at, it's what Mozilla has been good at historically, and I think we want to be good at in the AI era. We haven't talked a lot about where we're going with our own AI work, but it really is in the trustworthy space and in the open source space, because we think there's a lot of desire for those things.

• 54:16Peter Diamandis?

  Let's say the next president of the United States comes to you and says, what are the policies you'd like the White House to enact? Do you have a clear set of recommendations?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, at the high level, they're pretty clear.

• 54:33Peter Diamandis?

  Would you share?

• 54:33Speaker 01

  You know, what's interesting actually is despite that you can't get anything done, I'm Canadian, so I can make fun of the US political system. Despite that, you can't pass laws. I do think you have a lot of bipartisan commonality on some of these topics. And so I think one is, you know, the antitrust law works in today's era. And we haven't figured out how that works. But I think so there's space for entrepreneurs and there's space for innovation. And I do think that's critical, you know, a critical thing to figure out for this era. The second is we figure out what are the right AI and privacy guardrails. And that's where Europe hasn't gotten it perfect, but they have a little bit right

• 55:17Speaker 01

  in that where they focused AI regulations on uses of AI. Like, it's not, let's, you know, regulate all AI. It's like, if I'm going to use this for something that might be sensitive or dangerous or harmful, let's have guardrails on that. So we've got to do a better version. And that's, you know, for humanity to figure out. But I think regulating that. And then the third is making sure that that innovation funding is going to public goods, is going to stuff that everybody can use. And frankly, also that it's going to regions other than just California and Washington State. Because, you know, really, one of the other things about open source is the idea that people can innovate from anywhere. And I think you see not just corporate concentration in a few companies,

• 56:01Speaker 01

  geographic concentration in a few places. And I think it is an opportunity for government, if it's putting resources out there, to spread them widely.

• 56:10Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, I mean, but I do, again, going my aerospace roots. I remember, you know, NASA's space projects would be distributed among 30 congressional districts.

• 56:21Peter Diamandis?

  And companies, you know, strategic policy was to move in a congressional district that had no aerospace suppliers so they can get the contract, which makes for a lot of inefficiencies.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. The good news is that we're talking about, you know, bits, not atoms.

• 56:36Peter Diamandis?

  Yes, yeah, for sure. Lots changed from there. What other policies? How do you, you know, so the question ultimately is how do we regulate it to make sure we don't have, you know, disastrous outcomes? And how do we, you know, how do we sneak up against AGI, whatever that is? And maybe we've passed it already. Or digital superintelligence that disrupts, disrupts the way of our lives so rapidly that it leaves our heads spinning. Do you have any recommendations?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  There's two answers to that. I mean, I think one is just keeping our eye on the ball. And, you know, you saw this in the debates around SB 1047, that the AI safety law that Newsom vetoed recently is really the push towards we need to build an evidence-based way to kind of look at where are the real risks and where are they not. And it gets back to like, we should be regulating against risks and not just generally against, you know, amorphous fears. So it's urgent, it's important to kind of have regulation, it can do that, it needs to be grounded in evidence. The thing that is actually much trickier to fix, and I don't know how to fix it, is we have a bureaucracy, we have political systems designed for the industrial or even

• 57:55Speaker 01

  the pre-industrial age.

• 57:57Peter Diamandis?

  Let's, you know, wrap on a, on a conversation about what your prediction is on open source. What is your hope on where this is going to go?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Well, my prediction and my hope are the same, and I hope my prediction comes true. So, you know, my prediction is that there will be

• 58:19Speaker 01

  A public option, an open source option, and that you'll you'll see both coexisting. But I also think that the infrastructure layer, that the people who are just trying to do the commoditized fundamental stuff will not be the ones who win commercially. You know, Netscape doesn't exist anymore. Sun, I don't know if they exist anymore, but certainly they're not the definer of the ecosystem that they were. So I do think that the infrastructure, the building blocks, to get back to that Lego kit, will be open, and I think that will benefit us all, if it can be true, from a safety perspective, from an entrepreneur's, from a safety perspective, from an entrepreneurship perspective, from a general creativity innovation perspective.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  So that is both my hope and my prediction. I guess the hope I layer on top of it is that we can be smart enough that if we're spending public dollars anyways on things like compute, that the government plays a fueling role in this, as it did in previous eras, and that, you know, that's something it does with intent, as opposed to a kind of constraining role and trying to micromanage things.

• 59:28Peter Diamandis?

  One last aside on here, I just got back from India, which is, you know, a nation, 1.41 billion people, the largest on the planet, and a nation that I think needs AI for its survival. You know, you cannot provide the education and healthcare to the, you know, there's 100 million people that are the tax base for the nation, the rest are in some degree of poverty, and the only way you possibly provide health and education to them at scale is going to be AI on top of, you know, the GO5G network that's there.

• 1:00:11Peter Diamandis?

  And then I go to Greece and I meet with some of the leadership there, and they're like, you know, "Help us get AI going." So for a lot of nations, right, that are not AI

• 1:00:24Peter Diamandis?

  Centric today that are looking and feel and know that they need AI in their in their nation to compete and survive and thrive. How does the open source movement support them?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Well, I think that is actually the core of public AI and why we are talking about that beyond just open source, right? The three things are public use, public orientation, public goods. Public use is like, use this stuff to deliver healthcare and education. We had to figure out how to do that well. And that's where the public orientation comes in, like, build it in a way that is enabling of humans. And Darren Darren Akamoglu, I never get his name right, but we just won the Nobel Prize for Economics, talks about machine usefulness, right? So like, how do we actually make this helpful to humans to public ends? And then the third piece is public goods. And that's where open source comes in. It's like, let's, as we do these things, build into a commons. And certainly,

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  governments should do that so that what India does helps Greece and what America does helps India. And that that virtuous cycle begins. And that, you know, that's something where the best kind of human progress, I think, has come from, you know, those things all kind of heading up together.

• 1:01:36Peter Diamandis?

  Mark, before we sign off, where can people find you, follow you and find Mozilla Foundation? And how can they be involved? How can they support your work?

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Easy to find Mozilla, at Mozilla on X, Twitter, whenever, whatever you call it these days. You can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us at Mozilla.org, where we've been for 25 years. And, you know, I'm just, I'm Sermon on Twitter and LinkedIn. I'm kind of not in either of those places often, but you can find me there. And I think how you can get involved, it is really just looking at how does public AI, this concept of AI and service humanity, benefit you, even figuring it out selfishly? And then how do you give back? If you're building software, can it be open source? If you're a policymaker, can you make sure that public dollars go to public goods and so on?

• 1:02:25Peter Diamandis?

  Amazing. Mark Sermon, an open source warrior to benefit humanity. That's my new, it's my new brand for you.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  All right. Well, I'm happy. I'll get the t-shirt printed here right now.

• 1:02:38Peter Diamandis?

  Thank you for your work, Mark. A pleasure to meet you. Thanks for the conversation.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Likewise. Thanks for having me on, Peter.