58: Overcoming Regrets of a Wasted Life, How to Maximize Morale, Aligning Goals Up the Chain

0:00:00 - Opening: "How to Tell a Mother Her Child is Dead", by Naomi Rosenberg https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/how-to-tell-a-mother-her-child-is-dead.html?_r=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.temple.edu%2Fnews%2F2016-09-20%2Ftemple-doctor-emotional-side-emergency-room 0:15:17 - John R. M. Byrnes Letter to his Daughter 0:49:49 - Overcoming regrets of wasted time/life. 0:57:51 - Maximizing Employee/Team morale after firing a popular supervisor. 1:03:59 - How to capitalize with a substandard supervisor. 1:12:57 - Step-by-step Learning VS Creative Learning, in Jiu Jitsu and Life. 1:31:53 - Goals Not Aligning up the Chain of Command. 1:37:48 - Jocko's Next book Very soon. 1:46:14 - Cool Support, Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, Jocko Store https://www.jockostore.com, Psych Warfare https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322, Jocko Tea stuff https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KP8PCOU/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=jocko20-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01KP8PCOU&linkId=21be272f463abdf9bb4574e1293959e7&th=1. Extreme Ownership Muster 002 http://www.extremeownership.com. Youtube. 1:57:41 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast, number 58, with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  Now, a couple of shows ago, when Dr. Peter Attia was on, he mentioned an article. And I hesitate to call it an article, because it is actually much more than just an article. It's an elegant piece that was published in the New York Times, written by his friend and the daughter of one of his mentors, a woman named Naomi Rosenberg, Dr. Naomi Rosenberg, who is a doctor at Temple University.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  And Peter said that this article truly captured the emotions and the struggle and the methodology for delivering the worst news to a parent, that their child had died.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  And I, of course, read the article, and I found it incredible, and I wanted to share it with you, in case you didn't have a chance to read it yourself yet.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  So, here it is, from the opinion section of the New York Times, on September 3rd, 2016, by Dr. Naomi Rosenberg.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  "How to Tell a Mother Her Child Is Dead."

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  First, you get your coat. I don't care if you don't remember where you left it, you find it. If there was a lot of blood, you ask someone to go quickly to the basement to get you a new set of scrubs. You put on your coat and you go into the bathroom.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  You look into the mirror and you say it.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  You use the mother's name and you use her child's name, you may not adjust this part in any way.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  I will show you, if it were my mother, you would say, "Mrs. Rosenberg, I have terrible, terrible news. Naomi died today."

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  You say it out loud until you can say it clearly and loudly. How loudly?

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  Loud enough.

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  If it takes you fewer than five tries, you are rushing it and you will not do it right.

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  You take your time.

• 2:53Jocko Willink?

  After the bathroom, you do nothing before you go to her. You don't make a phone call, you do not talk to the medical student, you do not put in an order. You never make her wait, she is his mother. When you get inside the room, you will know who the mother is. Yes, I am very sure.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  Shake her hand and tell her who you are. If there is time, you shake everyone's hand. Yes, you will know if there is time.

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  You never stand. If there are no seats left, the couches have arms on them.

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  You will have a decision to make about whether you will ask her what she already knows. If you were the one to call her and tell her that her son had been shot, then you already have done part of it.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  But you have not done it yet.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  You are about to do it now. You never make her wait. She is his mother.

• 4:00Jocko Willink?

  Now, you explode the world.

• 4:06Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you have to. You say something like, "Mrs. Booker, I have terrible, terrible news. Ernest died today."

• 4:21Jocko Willink?

  Then you wait.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  You will not stand up.

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  You may leave yourself in the heaviness of your breath, or the racing of your pulse, or the sight of your shoelaces on your shoe, but you will not stand up.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  You are here for her.

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  She is his mother.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  If the mother has another son with her, and he has punched the wall, or broken the chair, do not be worried. The one that punched the wall or broke the chair will be better than the one who looks down and refuses to cry.

• 5:07Jocko Willink?

  The one who punched the wall or broke the chair will be much easier than the sister who looks up and closes her eyes as they fill.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  Security is already outside the room. And when they hear the first loud noise, they will know to come in.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  No, you will not have to tell them.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  They know about the family room in the emergency department in summer in North Philadelphia. It is all right.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  They will be kind.

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  If the chair cannot be sat in again, that is all right. We have money for new chairs every summer.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  If he does not break your chair, you stay in your chair. If he does, you find a new place to sit. You are here for the mother, and you have more to do.

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  If she asks you, you will tell her what you know. You do not lie. But do not say, "He was murdered," or "He was killed." "Yes, I know that he was," but that is not what you say. You say that he died. That is the part that you saw and that you know.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  When she asks if he felt any pain, you must be very careful.

• 6:42Jocko Willink?

  If he did not, you assure her quickly.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  If he did, you do not lie. But his pain is over now.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  Do not ever say, "He was lucky that he did not feel pain."

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  He was not lucky. She is not lucky.

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  Don't make that face. The depth of the stupidity of the things you will say sometimes is unimaginable.

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  Before you leave,

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  you break her heart one more time.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  "No, I'm sorry, but you cannot see him." There are strict rules when a person dies this way and the police have to take him first. "We cannot let you in. I'm so sorry."

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  You do not ever say, "The body."

• 7:56Jocko Willink?

  It is not a body. It is her son.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  You want to tell her that you know that he was hers. But she knows that, and she does not need for you to tell her. Instead, tell her you will give her time and come back in case she has questions. More questions, or questions for the first time.

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  If she has no questions, you do not give her the answers to the questions she has not asked.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  When you leave the room,

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  do not yell at the medical student who has a question.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  When you get home,

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  do not yell at your husband.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  If he left his socks on the floor again today,

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  it is alright.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  And that

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  concludes the article and it concludes the instructions from Dr. Rosenberg.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  And

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  I know we're all not doctors.

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  And even in my old job,

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  even when men were killed, my men were killed.

• 9:45Jocko Willink?

  I did not ever have to deliver this news myself. When my men were killed, I was still overseas, still, still fighting.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  And the military has a process, a procedure,

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  to notify the next of kin when a service member is killed and that's

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  well documented.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  But I never had to do this.

• 10:19Jocko Willink?

  But even though we're not doctors and

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  I guess most of us are blessed in the fact that we don't have to deliver this news.

• 10:38Jocko Willink?

  But I still think there's much to be learned.

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  First of all, to get some sense of what

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  doctors and nurses and medical personnel go through on a daily basis.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  And the methodology that's used, really, you can back that off a little bit and think about how you can use it in situations to deliver

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  other bad news.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  Rehearse what you're going to say. Say it. Say it in the mirror out loud.

• 11:24Jocko Willink?

  Be direct, simply and clearly state the facts so there's no ambiguity.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  And so there's no question about what it is that you said.

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  And then wait.

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to say anymore. You already said it.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  Don't distract from the words.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  Don't take away from the statement by adding to it. You said it. Leave it alone.

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to fill the silence with words. Words are good.

• 12:12Jocko Willink?

  But sometimes silence is better.

• 12:17Jocko Willink?

  And that includes the part that Dr. Rosenberg pointed out

• 12:24Jocko Willink?

  about

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  the way that we tend to answer questions that weren't even asked. No.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  The other thing that she obviously has had to contend with is the emotions from other people. Don't let them surprise you. Expect it.

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  If someone wants to get angry, that's okay. If someone breaks down, that's okay.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  Know that it is coming.

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  Don't let it surprise you. Don't let it catch you off guard.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  And she talks about body language as well, right? She says, "Don't make that face."

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  So, we have to be aware of our body language.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Our body language is a language.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  And it communicates to people. So make sure that the message you are communicating with your body language is the right message.

• 13:51Jocko Willink?

  And then lastly,

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  she talks about detachment.

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  And the fact that

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  even though you've gone through this horrific emotional situation,

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  leave it in the room.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  Don't take out the anger and the frustration and the emotions that you do feel. Don't take them out on the intern or the medical student or your spouse or your children.

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  Because whatever you're pretending to be mad about

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  doesn't matter.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  And what does matter is life.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  So live it.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  And live it well.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  And reading and thinking about what Dr. Rosenberg wrote, it made me think of a

• 15:19Jocko Willink?

  a letter that I had read some time ago that

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  is sort of the reciprocal of this. Instead of being a child that's lost, this is

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  about a parent that's lost. Now, when parents grow old and we reach old age,

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  part of life is death.

• 15:50Jocko Willink?

  But

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  there are events in the world that bring early deaths.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  And I remembered a letter that I had read, which was written by John Roland McGinley Burns,

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  who held the rank of trooper

• 16:15Jocko Willink?

  in the 27 Cavalry Commando Regiment in the Australian Army.

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  And he wrote this letter about 10 months into the brutal campaign in New Guinea,

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  where the Allies

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  met the determined Japanese Imperial troops,

• 16:37Jocko Willink?

  who, as we all know, fought ruthlessly

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  and fought to the death.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  And not only were the Allies fighting against the Japanese soldiers, they also fought against the diseases of the jungle.

• 17:01Jocko Willink?

  With nearly 100% of the men suffering malaria and typhus. It was a nightmare.

• 17:12Jocko Willink?

  A bloody, fever-stricken, miserable nightmare.

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  But in that nightmare,

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  facing death, in that darkness,

• 17:36Jocko Willink?

  John Burns found the good.

• 17:44Jocko Willink?

  He found the light.

• 17:49Jocko Willink?

  And here is what he had to say in a letter written to his little daughter

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  for her second birthday.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  Wednesday, October 21st, 1942.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  "My dear little girl, last night was a beautiful moonlit night.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  Every star that studded the sky was sparkling like a jewel.

• 18:30Jocko Willink?

  The air was crisp but faintly perfumed with all the fragrances only a lovely spring night can devise.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  Today, it is raining hard. The wind is fierce and cold. Yes, it is miserable, something you want to pass by quickly so that the night will again be beautiful."

• 18:59Jocko Willink?

  Life too, Anne, is like the weather. Some days are so lovely, the happenings of those days so enchanting, you can never forget them.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  Some are so unhappy, you wish they never happened, but alas, they must for your life. Your mother's, mine, everyone's is so mixed up with joy and sadness, that you never have one or the other for long.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  One replaces the other with a speed that is amazing.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  Thus, it just happened two years ago. Your mother knew, and I knew, that you were going to be born.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  Those days were anxious ones, Anne. As the days went by, your mother used to smile at me with those lovely brown eyes, eyes that shone with courage and resolve.

• 20:03Jocko Willink?

  If she had anxiety in her mind, she never showed it.

• 20:09Jocko Willink?

  But it must have been there.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  In my heart and mind, torments, rage, that no one will ever know.

• 20:19Jocko Willink?

  But through all the doubts, all the worries, and all the long anxious hours, an end came, bringing with it you.

• 20:35Jocko Willink?

  From that hour, it was early in the morning, the lives of two people were filled with inexplicable happiness.

• 20:45Jocko Willink?

  When I called to see your mother that day, I shall never forget the beauty, the happiness that shone up at me from her precious little face. Neither will I forget the pride and the joy that surged right through me when the nurse brought you along and I held you in my arms.

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  Soon, we took you home.

• 21:12Jocko Willink?

  The months sped by and gradually took a hold in our hearts.

• 21:18Jocko Willink?

  You laughed so much at silly things, we did declaim your attention. You showed off to so many people, your eyes so big and questioning, never failed to win admiration.

• 21:32Jocko Willink?

  Your curly hair was indeed a special joy.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  And as each month sped by, you grew.

• 21:44Jocko Willink?

  First you sat up, then stood up, then crawled, then walked. As each stage passed, funny little incidents occurred. Perhaps no one ever noticed them, or remembered them, but your mother and I did.

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  Every night when I came home from work, there were stories of your conduct through the day to be told. Some days you were good, and others you were naughty. Like for instance, the day when a little mischievous spirit seized you, and strips of wallpaper came from the wall. Other thoughts came crowding into my mind, memories of days gone by when we laughed at you, scolded you, and some serious times when we worried over you.

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  The first year of your life passed quickly.

• 22:41Jocko Willink?

  Quickly perhaps, but you grew so quickly every day, was an adventure. Not only for yourself, but for us. You had a party for your first birthday, and although you sat up like Jackie, you probably will never remember it.

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  But that day, you got Guga for a present. Poor Guga. As each week passed, he got dirtier and more worn. And the dirtier he got, the more you loved him.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  Then at Christmas, Teddy came along. Dear old Teddy, so plump and with a frizzy coat. In a few months, he was still plump, but his hair was not so frizzy.

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  Then you'd go to sleep.

• 23:32Jocko Willink?

  Then you'd never go to sleep unless Teddy and Guga were tucked in with you. You'll never know how angelic, how like a cherub you looked when after your bath, you were popped into bed with your little playmates.

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  Indeed, God is good.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  How many times have your mother and I crept in to see you sleeping? And how many times have I wiped away tears, gentle little tears of happiness, from her eyes when we came out?

• 24:15Jocko Willink?

  All those days were so beautiful.

• 24:19Jocko Willink?

  Like the night I sat and watched yesterday evening.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  But soon came the rain.

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  Your lovely country, so free and proud, was fighting for its life.

• 24:41Jocko Willink?

  Those indeed were dark days.

• 24:49Jocko Willink?

  I had to leave your mother and you. And become a soldier.

• 24:56Jocko Willink?

  Thousands of other daddies went too. Because we had to fight. So that all the mothers and little boys and girls could live happily.

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  That was many months ago.

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  I do not know how long it will be before we will be home again.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  But rain, my little darling, does not last forever.

• 25:27Jocko Willink?

  Through the blackest clouds, a little piece of blue appears. The wind blows and soon the clouds go. So too will peace come. And then we can all be happy again.

• 25:46Jocko Willink?

  Because I'm a soldier now and I cannot attend your birthday this year.

• 25:54Jocko Willink?

  You are going to have a party and I won't be there.

• 26:01Jocko Willink?

  But while the party is on, I'll be thinking of you and your mother.

• 26:07Jocko Willink?

  Thinking of the day you came along and of the days that have gone by since.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  You are lovely now, like your mother.

• 26:25Jocko Willink?

  Someday, when you grow up, some man is going to be lost in your loveliness. Like I was when I fell in love with your mother. But no matter.

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  We cannot have you forever. While we do, we'll teach you all the lovely things in life. And there are so many beautiful things in life.

• 26:53Jocko Willink?

  There are two bad things and these also we will tell you about. So that you'll know how to pass them by.

• 27:07Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it will be years before you will be able to read this letter. But when you can, you'll know at least how much we love you and how much you mean to us.

• 27:21Jocko Willink?

  I am looking forward to seeing you soon. And to seeing those big brown eyes of yours laugh back at me.

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  Until then, my little girl.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  Goodbye.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  And God bless you on your birthday.

• 27:43Jocko Willink?

  From your adoring Dada.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  And

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  Dada

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  Soldier

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  Trooper

• 28:09Jocko Willink?

  Father

• 28:14Jocko Willink?

  John Burns died in New Guinea

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  On the 9th of February 1943

• 28:24Jocko Willink?

  A few months after that letter was written

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  And when I say

• 28:45Jocko Willink?

  That war

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  That war brings out the worst in people, but that it also Brings out the best in people, this is exactly what I'm talking about

• 29:04Jocko Willink?

  What What force Moved The hand of John Burns?

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  Of course, it was absolutely the love of his daughter

• 29:28Jocko Willink?

  But But was that expression

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  Only Revealed in so pure a form because of the evil that he faced? The peril that he faced, the horror

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  That he faced?

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  I think war brings out the worst in people.

• 29:57Jocko Willink?

  But also brings out the best in people, and I'm sorry for that.

• 30:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't want it to be that way.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  So, I would ask you, and I ask myself,

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  can we,

• 30:26Jocko Willink?

  can we free our minds?

• 30:32Jocko Willink?

  Can we access that purity?

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  Can we access that purity without the horror?

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  Without the imminent fear of death?

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  Without evil?

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  Can we access and can we recognize that purity?

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  Without war?

• 31:19Jocko Willink?

  I do not know the answer.

• 31:27Jocko Willink?

  But I hope.

• 31:32Jocko Willink?

  I hope that by looking at the horror,

• 31:39Jocko Willink?

  by looking at the hatred and the savagery and the utter lack of humanity that war unleashes, I hope that that allows us

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  to take one step closer.

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  One step closer to the purity and the beauty and the love.

• 32:13Jocko Willink?

  The love that John Burns was able to find and express to his young daughter as he marched forward into the wretched jungle toward evil.

• 32:29Jocko Willink?

  Toward war.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  And toward death.

• 32:45Jocko Willink?

  Let us hope.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  Let us remember.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  Let us learn, let us learn about the darkness.

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  So that our mind can see with the greatest of contrast.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  The light.

• 33:17Jocko Willink?

  And the good.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  So that so that we can proclaim the pure adoration and the pure love.

• 33:35Jocko Willink?

  That befits the divine.

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  The divine and beautiful and real living angels.

• 33:57Jocko Willink?

  Like Ann.

• 34:01Jocko Willink?

  That surround us every day.

• 34:10Jocko Willink?

  Because they are here.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  The angels are here.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  With us.

• 34:50Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a rough way to open things up, I know.

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  And that's one letter.

• 35:03Jocko Willink?

  From one time period in the world.

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  And I have no idea, and can't even comprehend how many millions

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  of those letters were written.

• 35:29Jocko Willink?

  And I would say,

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  if you're not

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  facing death, and you're not facing horror,

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  still,

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  write that letter.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 36:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I, for those of you that are listening, I, I kind of gave Echo a heads up that this was gonna be kinda harsh.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  I remember when I read, I don't know when I read that letter for the first time and, but I remember just reading it thinking, wow.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  So I, I, and the other thing is,

• 36:40Jocko Willink?

  Echo with his young daughter and you've see, you see, he's, he's told me this before about like, uh, when atrocities are taking place and he's all okay, you know, soldiers are getting killed and he's, doesn't get that emotional about it. But anytime I start talking about kids getting hurt,

• 37:01Jocko Willink?

  Echo always has a hard time with it. So, uh, you know, he's got a beautiful young daughter and a son. Who, what do you call a son? What do you call him handsome? He's too small to be handsome. You can't call him beautiful because he's a boy.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  He's very handsome.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we call him handsome.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  I think he's very handsome.

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 37:20Jocko Willink?

  That, like I said, I gave Echo the heads up. I said it was gonna be harsh and obviously it was, uh, it was pretty harsh.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you can't help but, I mean, all, all of this stuff, like you just put yourself in the situation, you know?

• 37:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I told you about the time I was watching Hawaii 5-0, the new one. Not, not the old one, the new, and it, it just happens to be one of my, it's in Hawaii and all this stuff. So it's a good show. I think it's a good show, but it's not like heavy or deep. It's, you know,

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it like?

• 37:56Speaker 01

  It's a fun action show.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it like Baywatch kind of?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Well, maybe, but none- nonetheless, it's, um, you know, it's a Hawaii Five-O crime.

• 38:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  They gotta solve the crime. So one of them, um, it was pretty recent, like a few weeks ago, whatever. There's a prom and one of the Five-O guys' son is at the prom. Terrorists take over the prom to do something, right? So now the little conundrum is, task unit's guy's son is in the prom, but they gotta go solve the crime too, you know? But the son's in there, so it adds this little thing. And then it was one of those things where kind of like on the movie Die Hard, where the, when the terrorism thing got sprung on him, the son was in like the bathroom or something.

• 38:43Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  So he has to kind of work along with it. Another guy was there from Five-O to Chaperone. They were in the bathroom. So they had to go behind the scenes. So it was like, anyway, at the end of the day, the son's kind of like the hero, you know? And then he like comes.

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  You can't let a, you can't, you can't let a Hawaii Five-O break you down like this, brother.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing with you.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  It's not Hawaii Five-O, it's this.

• 39:18Jocko Willink?

  I know. I know, man. This is harsh. This is harsh.

• 39:24Jocko Willink?

  It's brutal. It's brutal. And, and you know, um, just so, you know, kind of the pre-recording conversation that, that we had is what I was saying to you is, hey, man, I'm gonna like, a lot of times on the podcast, I kind of have time to prepare for it. So I, I can answer the questions because I can think about them and all this. And I said, I'm gonna ask a question. I don't have the answer to, right? And I'm sure we'll get a lot of feedback on this. As far as. You know, does this intense, you know, war scenario make you express yourself more fully?

• 40:08Jocko Willink?

  And basically, I asked Echo before, before we started recording, you know, we were having that conversation. And I said, if you were gonna come here, if I was gonna kill you right now, what would you say to your daughter? What would you, if I gave you the phone and said you can talk to her one more time? What would you say? Have you said that to her today? Have you said it to her this week?

• 40:30Jocko Willink?

  And I don't know. I don't know if we do that. I don't think we do. I don't think we normally do, because I mean, you're not gonna go through life like that. And I'm not saying you need to do it every day. But how do you open up to that purity that you get when your life is at risk? And you're in the jungles of New Guinea? And people are dying all around you? And you know it's your daughter's birthday coming up and you wanna write her a letter? And you know it might be the last thing she ever sees from you?

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  There's some, I believe that there's some force that, that moves through you and, and moves your hand and moves your mind and moves your heart. Which, if you think about it, why, like, there's a lot of subjects to, to have books about or to have movies about. Why are there so many war movies? Or what's that all about? There's war movies, you know, there's war movies upon war movies. There's no, there's no other, is there another subject that there's as many movies about than war?

• 41:39Jocko Willink?

  Right? There's not. Is there? I don't know. There's a lot, for sure. I mean, I guess you could say, in general, in a broad category, could be like romance, but even romance movies, you know?

• 41:51Jocko Willink?

  I mean, those are marginal at best.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't think you'd know anything about the quantity of romance movies anyway. So really no, no guessing.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  But we know that there's the, to say the least, there's a lot of war movies. I guess there's a lot of cops and robbers movies, but guess what? That's the same, that's the same thing. You got, you know, they don't make cops and robber movies about giving out tickets.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  For parking.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  They do cop and robber movies about cops and robbers killing each other and being bad guys and all that.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  At risk and the family.

• 42:20Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and the family and all that. And even, okay, here's another big genre of movies. Mobster movies, right? Mobster, there's a lot of mobster movies. Well, it's not, it's not, it's always about the life and death scenarios. That's what it's about. So I believe there is something to that. I don't know what it is, but there's something that opens up your mind. And again, I think that's why it's important to look at these things and feel these things as much as you can feel them. So that you can have some more access in your brain

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  to get to that part of your mind and your heart to express what's in there. That isn't going to come out unless it's put under that kind of pressure.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  Either that, or maybe Hawaii Five O does it to you.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  You never know, man.

• 43:18Jocko Willink?

  One time when my wife was pregnant with her first, our first kid. And, uh, you know, the hormones get all crazy.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Sure, progesterone.

• 43:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and so we're watching something on TV back in the day. And an AT and T commercial came on.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Jocko Willink?

  And it was, you know, the, the dad was not home or something like that. And all of a sudden I hear like sniffling and I look over, it was a 30 second commercial. You know, 14 seconds into it, she's bawling. What is wrong with you? It's just so sad.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 43:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Never know, man, they can come out of nowhere. Watch like, like Armageddon. I don't know if you've ever seen that one. Uh, uh.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  For just, just FYI, I haven't seen any cheesy, stupid movies with things blowing up everywhere.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Bruce Willis.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  Those aren't the emotional, uh, muse that I'm looking for.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, at the end. Bruce Willis, same deal. But how's this though? He's talking to her through a camera. And he, you know, it's the same deal as this letter though. He's saying, not that long and in depth. It's not, you know, not as deep of course, but still same scenario. Cause he, he, he has to detonate the bomb, but the remote detonator broke. So he has to do it manually and blow himself up to save the world. Meanwhile, you gotta tell his daughter. Anyway, same deal, man.

• 44:36Jocko Willink?

  You know, this is the other thing that I, that I find interesting about this thought. Right about this thought of accessing this place, this kind of emotional place that people get into. And I think sometimes what happens is guys get in there. And they can't get back out. Or, or just, and I like, that's almost a description of combat trauma. Or when somebody comes back, oh, they're so emotional. Yeah. It's because they're in that spot and they can't get out.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  They can't put it back in check. They can't get control of it again. And so I think that might be another thing for, for people that are visualizing this and visualizing. When I'm saying you want to get to that place, you also want to be able to get back out of it.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, you don't want to get wrapped around and live in this super hyper emotional world. And it's, it's not even emotional. It's a purity. It's a purity of thought. And crystalline love. And if, and if you get stuck in there, all of a sudden you can't function normally.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  And so you gotta, it's good to dip into it. It's good to see it. It's good to feel it. But then you gotta be able to get back out of it. And if you get stuck in there, you know, that's what happens when guys come home from multiple combat deployments. They're just in there and it comes and goes and they, they, it's like, it's damaged. Or it's not damaged, but it's just an open access into open wound.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  And so you gotta learn to kind of get that under control as well. Because that's where I think, that's where I think problems come in. If you spend all your time in that, in that area, you're not, you're, you're off balance.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  You gotta, you gotta somehow balance it.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  So, um.

• 46:35Jocko Willink?

  And this is the funny thing, just because we're, we're here, right? I'm gonna talk about it. This, like, what, what you're going through right now, like, kind of a mood swing scenario? What I was going through. What you were going through. What's, what, when, uh, I remember like when, when Alton Lee Grizzard died, right? He was, the guy was my platoon and I talked about it when we were on the Tim Ferriss podcast, when Tim Ferriss came on our podcast. Yeah. And I talked about Grizz was his nickname. He was killed in a murder suicide. It was horrible. But that was, uh, the first time like we'd be, we'd be with my teammates. And we'd be all like super emotional and sad. And then we'd be laughing 30 seconds later. Yeah.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  And then crying again another 30 seconds later and then laughing a minute later. And, and we'd be laughing at each other for crying. Yeah. And then, and then crying because we were laughing. It's just, it's, uh, it's normal. I believe it's normal because I saw that with every, you know, every death that I've experienced in the SEAL teams, you know, guys, it's, it's not like you have to be sad now and you have to be sad for 14 days or nine days. There's no, no, it's not like that. You know how long you have to be sad for? Until you feel just, just like John Byrne talked about in his thing, that the sadness and the happiness comes so quickly. Yeah. And that's what happens when you get, when you go through rough patches or when bad things happen.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  Those, those emotions will come and it's, and I just want people to know it's normal. It's normal to, to be crying one minute. And then laughing 30 seconds later. Yeah. And that's normal and it's okay. Cause I've seen it with every death I've experienced. And I, I mean, I know the, the SEAL teams is kind of, um,

• 48:21Jocko Willink?

  you know, we're a little different, but I, I saw it with the families. I saw it with, you know, people that weren't in the SEAL teams with us. I saw the same reactions. Yeah. So it's normal. And that's even you 10 minutes ago, you were like crying and you heard me laughing. You started laughing. You started, you literally started laughing. And then as soon as you kind of got a laughter out and then all of a sudden you went right back. You were vacillating back between the two. And, and that's, that's like I said, it's normal. It's okay. It's what happens when you start getting, getting, uh, emotional about stuff.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, thankfully, uh, my situation's more thinking about it, you know, it's like I'm thinking about something bad that could, you know, it's not like.

• 49:05Jocko Willink?

  But it would be the same way, you know, if something terrible did happen, you're gonna feel the same way and it's, you know, everyone should be just expecting that.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:13Jocko Willink?

  And it's probably the way that we deal with it emotionally.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Man, one time, my daughter had a like, this is like, she was, she was two, I think, almost two. She got a staph, MRSA staph infection in her lymph node.

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, God.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  So it's like, and so, you know, we were there in the hospital for like a week, maybe two, and it, there was, yeah, same deal, man, where it's like, cause she, she's cool with it, you know, it doesn't really hurt or nothing, it's just this thing, and then you're like, man, it's just this weird roller coaster, like how you're saying. Crazy.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Part of the game, I guess.

• 49:48Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, let's go to some Q and A from the interwebs.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Question number one.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  Something a little bit more positive, more like, more positive.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:57Jocko Willink?

  And this question is actually very positive. I like this question.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  All right.

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  So let's rock and roll.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Here it is.

• 50:02Jocko Willink?

  From the interwebs.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  I am not Shakespeare. So I cannot come up with a Facebook message that will express how powerful of an impact you and Echo have had on my life. My father died when I was 10, and I spent the next 12 years wasting my physical and mental gifts. You've taught me many of the lessons that I like to believe my father would have taught me if he were alive.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Here's a brief list of my achievements over the past two years that you deserve at least partial credit to. Here we go. Lost 90 pounds, net weight 300, from 300 pounds down to 210.

• 50:42Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:44Jocko Willink?

  That's a big difference.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. People weigh 90 pounds, by the way. You're also a whole person.

• 50:50Jocko Willink?

  A person.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Deadlift max went from two twenty-five to four fifty-five.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Bench went from one eighty-five to three fifteen.

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Extra legit. Uh, started training jujitsu.

• 51:06Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Boom, yeah. And boxing with friends, even though, uh, there's nowhere to train where I currently live, except for the yoga room at LA Fitness.

• 51:15Jocko Willink?

  You can make it happen in the yoga room at LA Fitness. Let's get it on in the yoga room at LA Fitness. That's what I'm talking about.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Like on, um, like on Lionheart, I think they did it. I think they fought. Anyway, that's a whole nother thing. Anyway, spent two years working at an awful job where I led from the middle and improved the output of the entire facility, while adding to my own skill set, to the point where I was able to get a job, uh, get a job I love.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. That, that's awesome to be bragging about the fact that you had an awful job that you just got after it in. And look what happened. Guess what the results are? You get the job that you want.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  The job you love, yep. Started at the new job last Wednesday, so that just happened. Boom.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  And so he started taking class for the next job I want on, uh, Coursera.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Must be some kind of an internet thing.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Um, I'm halfway through the data science certification program. Yeah, data science. I'm currently twenty-six and I fully intend to get after it until the day I die. I passed your lessons on to my younger brother who has lost fifty pounds and swings the kettlebell. I got him every day.

• 52:24Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  When I lack the motivation to do what needs to be done, your words ring loud in my ears. Discipline equals freedom. Thank you so much. Okay, so the, my que- the question is, um, you may not-

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I included this preamble of kind of what he's been, you're gonna hear, but as I thought about how to answer this question. It's good to know what the background is and what successes he's had. That's why we kind of threw that in there. And it's awesome. It's awesome to hear about a trooper just getting after it.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dang numbers too. That's the thing. That's the good thing about like, you know, some of you can say, I'm getting after it nowadays. Good. Good.

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  But now I'm deadlifting 455.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, this guy's like, I'm getting after it. Here's how. Here's how my results. Anyway. Okay, Jocko, you may not have this issue. How do you avoid feeling discouraged when you realize how much of your life you wasted when you're not getting after it? Do you ever worry that you won't achieve your full potential because you wasted time?

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, like I said, first and foremost, congratulations.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Second.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  That's just legit. And to have made that much progress, you're obviously on the path and getting after it. And what you've accomplished is awesome. Some people never make that transition. So stay on it. Keep crushing it. Now, as far as discouragement goes from not having gotten on the path earlier, do I feel that way? Would I feel that way? Negative. Don't know. Okay, you were a little late getting in the game. But I'll tell you what, 26 years old? Is that what we're talking about? 26? Yeah, at 26 years old, you're young. You're young. But I'll tell you what, even if, even if

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  you were 40, or 50, or 60, or 70, doesn't matter. You're in the game now, and that's, that's what counts. And all those quote unquote wasted years, they, they weren't wasted, right? They're not wasted because you learned. And specifically, what did he learn about? Learned about what it's like to be out of shape. Learned about what it's like to be overweight. Learned about what it's like to be weak. And the knowledge that you learned about those things?

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  Is fuel to make sure that it never happens again. Cause you know, you know what is out there and you know how bad it can get. And, and this is the other reason why it's beneficial. That you, you have a past that wasn't perfect is now. You can teach other people how to do it very clearly. You can inspire other people to do it. Look at what you did to you. What you did to your brother. Right. It's another good example that so. Back in the day before anybody knew what jujitsu was back in the day. I am the worst person to introduce jujitsu to people.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  Because when they see me, cause I'm 225 pounds and I'm, you know, a big guy. And they think, of course this guy can choke me. Of course, you know, they, they don't expect anything else. So when I choke them, they're like, well, yeah, you were really strong. So the best people to introduce jujitsu to people is like Jeff Glover. Right. Who's 150 pounds, skinny guy. And he comes out and chokes you, big, strong guy, 27 times in a row. They say, oh, maybe this stuff works. Well, it's the same thing here. People look at me, they go, well, Jock, you know, Jock was just hardcore. No, not just me. Look at you. You're the one that did it. You went through a much bigger transition than I've ever gone through in my life.

• 56:12Jocko Willink?

  So. I say you embrace what you learned from the weekdays. Let them, let them make you even stronger. And you use your own personal. Transformation that you've made in life, use that to help other people transform and get on the path as well. That's where I'm at.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  So good. And there's a lot to be said too for that. Like the, like how he was talking is what I think, you know, is. How his brother lost fifty pounds, right? So, and that's like a lot, like, like a lot of times I feel like when people will do good stuff for themselves and make these big changes.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Other people who see, there's kind of, there's two people, I'm sure there's one or two, but there's two kind of people where some will be like, eh, they'll just hate and they'll be just jealous and they'll, you know, whatever. But the legit people like in your life or around you are gonna be like, hey, what'd you do? You know, even if like, even if it's not losing weight, even if it's like you're making like millions of dollars now. They're like, like, what are you doing? You know, you just sort of changed real quick, like you're now you're making millions out. What'd you do? I wanna do, I wanna get on that stuff, whatever you're doing. And the workout thing, that's a big one. So if like, like a lot of times like girls, they'll lose all this weight and now they're like super attractive. They're, you know, as attractive as they always wanted to be kind of thing. All of a sudden, what did you do? Oh, my gosh, what'd you do? What'd you do? And they wanna do it too.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  It's like, it's almost like, almost like you can prove it to others that it can be done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Jocko Willink?

  Stay on the path, man. That's awesome. Awesome stuff.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Next.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Jocko, how do you handle an employee or how do you handle employee morale after terminating a popular supervisor for cause?

• 58:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so, I mean, it's kind of a rough one, but it's not, it's not something that doesn't happen. It doesn't happen all the time because a lot of times people that are popular, they do well. But sometimes people are popular for the wrong reasons. They're popular because they let people cut corners. They're popular because they slack what?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Um, what is this for cause? Just to clarify.

• 58:25Jocko Willink?

  Meaning they, they weren't efficient in their job. It's, it's you, you failed.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  Basically, you're not up to par.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Oh, gotcha.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  And so, people, sometimes popular people, popular supervisors, yeah, like I said, sometimes they're, they're popular because they do great and they're great leaders, but a lot of times they're popular because they let people get away with murder.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  That's your boy.

• 58:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so, when you figure that out, that the person's not doing their job and not a good leader, then you gotta fire them. I mean, you've tried to counsel them, all that stuff, but now you gotta fire them. So how are you gonna get through that? Well, for one thing.

• 59:01Jocko Willink?

  The number one thing you gotta do is explain why to the people, to the troops. You got to explain why this person is being removed. And just, you know, just like we just kind of learned from

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  the opening piece about being direct and not avoiding the, the conversation. Have the conversation, be straightforward. And now, now this is a key piece. Don't be disparaging of the person that's getting fired, right? That guy was a dirtbag. You, you, because these people are, you know, that some of them have a relationship with them. And so you don't want to just immediately create animosity, but you do have to be straightforward. You do have to say, look, we had standards here. He was out of bounds on these things right here, and we just can't do that in this company. We, we gotta hold the line. You know, there's ethical reasons, there's legal reasons or what, you know, whatever the case may be. So that's that. The other thing is you gotta inspire some conversation.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  You gotta inspire some questions so they're, so that they can, because you're trying to close the gap of the relationship, right? You fired somebody and now there's a gap, a relationship gap. Cause that person that you fired is the relationship between, they connect the relationship between this, his subordinates and you. So now there's a gap in the relationship. So you gotta fill that gap. So you gotta start getting the conversations going, talking to them and getting them. You just, like I said, closing the gap in the relationship. The other thing is you gotta explain what the follow on plan is very clearly. And you gotta introduce whoever's taking their place. You gotta introduce them. I mean, immediately they gotta be ready to rock and roll.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  They gotta be read in that you have to counsel them on like, hey, you're, you know why I'm putting you in here? Be a leader, yes. Run this job site, yes. I need you to build these relationships with these guys. You're now taking over a relationship. You're taking over boss, yes, but you're taking over the relationships that he had. Now here's what you gotta do to do it. You gotta go and you gotta be humble. You gotta ask questions, you gotta, all those standard leadership stuff. But you gotta get them focused in the right area. You also gotta, you also gotta make sure who's ever coming in to take their place. Make sure that they understand what the political terrain is. Which guys were boys with the guy you fired? Which guys didn't like him anyway? So you gotta explain all that to them. So that he understands what's going on. And the last thing I'll say on this is,

• 1:01:19Jocko Willink?

  You'll find that oftentimes, somebody that's that you think is mission critical, they're actually not mission critical. They're not as mission critical as they think they are. And they're not as mission critical as you think they are. And others, like when someone is doing a bad job, or someone is not a good leader, the other people, even though they might be buddy buddy with them, they know it. And they know they should be removed. And when you do it, a lot of times, the respect level goes up. So that means the other people that are in that position will, or the subordinates, a lot of them are ready to step up too. They're ready. They're going, God, it took you forever to fire this guy.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  I mean, we were doing what we got to do, and he was popular and everything. He was nice, but we see where it's coming from. So have confidence when you do it, you know, be be be thoughtful. But when you make the decision and you know it's the right thing to do, do it. Get that other leader ready to rock and roll. Explain everything very clearly. Explain why you're doing it. And build and fill that gap in relationships that now it's going to exist.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  When you say mission critical, what does that mean?

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  Meaning without this guy.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Oh, right. The mission.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  The mission's gonna fail.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Jocko Willink?

  If Echo wasn't here for the podcast, we wouldn't be able to do it.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like.

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  No, actually, we would.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  No, I'm.

• 1:02:43Jocko Willink?

  I'd find some other guy.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:44Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, hey, can you press record on this machine over here? And someone would say, yeah. And I'd say, cool. And then I'd say, do it. And I'd say, well, do you know how to make YouTube videos? Because that would be an addition. Since Echo doesn't do much of that, maybe you could help with that.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Jocko Willink?

  No, but mission critical just means a guy that, and this happens, you see the technology companies where you got some guy that's really in the code.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  More than anybody else. And so, if I leave, no one's going to understand what I built.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, you did a bad job if no one's going to understand what you built, but. But it even happens, I've seen it with construction. If you're building something more complex, like all of a sudden you got one guy that really understands the details. And it can be hard because everyone thinks, oh, if we lose him, he's the only guy that knows how to do XYZ. So people freak out about it.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Almost seems like that's more of a comfort zone thing.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  It's a definite comfort zone thing. You know what I actually I can say? I don't think I've ever, I'm trying to think. I don't think I've seen it yet where the mission critical guy got fired and things fell apart.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I've, I'm trying to think if I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Jocko Willink?

  No, I haven't seen it. Maybe someone will happen one day.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  All right, next question.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Next question. Doco. I started working for a new company about four months ago. Although, although new to this particular field, my previous experience and skill set directly applies to the work I do now. I'm assigned to work with an experienced quote unquote mentor who has, has me do busy work or tasks that are well beneath my capabilities, leaving me feeling underutilized. Furthermore, when I see the quality of work this person executes, I'm confident I could outperform him.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  And yet he treats me like an idiot or a noob, quote unquote newbie.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  He, uh, he also milks the clock disappearing for long stretches at a time and spending a lot of time on his phone. To further complicate matters, he's well connected to our upper management. What is the best course of action if my goal is to get noticed as someone who can perform the quality work that our clients demand?

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Fairly normal situation, right? This happens in every industry. Uh, what's the best course of action if my goal is to get noticed as someone who can perform the quality of work that our clients demand? Best course of action? Perform the quality work that the clients demand. That's the best course of action. That's it. Work hard, over deliver, get after it. That's the number one thing you can do. Now that you got an opportunity here, your, your mentor disappears for long stretches?

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  Good. Let him go. Take a long lunch, boss. I got it. Oh, you want to assign me these menial tasks? Well, eventually, if he's gonna take all these breaks, then he's gonna have you do the more meaningful work. So that's fine. Um, you, you can do better work than him? Good. That's gonna be fine. That's gonna show through eventually. He's well-connected up the chain of command. Beautiful. Beautiful. Cause if you can now build a relationship with him, you're gonna be well-connected too. And that's gonna be the hardest part, right? The hard, that's gonna be, it's gonna be hard to do. And it's especially hard to do because your attitude right now is negative, right?

• 1:06:16Jocko Willink?

  Your attitude right now is negative. It's a little ego kicking in. I can do better than him. He's, I'm underutilized. He's, his, he does things, or he's making me do things beneath my capabilities. Those are all just ego. It's fine. We, ego's good. Ego's got a lot of positives to it. What's driving you to want to do better? So it's okay. But you're gonna have to overcome that in this scenario in order to build a relationship with this guy. Man, I built relationships with guys that I hated.

• 1:06:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, I mean, because guess what? Does that make me two-faced? No, you know what? It's my job. I'm a professional. I am a professional. I guarantee you, you come and work with me, you will see, I am a professional. And yet, I will build relationships. So, so not yet, but so that means my job and my professionalism is more important than my ego and my, and my,

• 1:07:19Jocko Willink?

  my criticality of other people, right? I'm not looking down on him going on. So, because what I want to do is build a good relationship. So when we build that good relationship with him, now he's, if he's well-connected with the folks up top, they're like, oh, what's up with Billy? Oh, Billy's good to go, man. He's doing a great job. Now, what if you're like, well, the thing that the other, so what you gotta be careful of, what you don't want to do is create an antagonistic relationship with him. And that includes threatening him with your work ethic, threatening him with your performance level, threatening him with your skills. So you almost have to throttle back just a little bit enough that

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  He's not threatened. Now, the other thing you could do instead of throttling back is what you do is you give him the credit. The credit. And you give him the credit, you're good. And now he's like pumped. Yeah. He's not looking, you become, you build the relationship. That's what we want to do. We want to build a relationship. And we want to put your ego in check, do the little menial tasks, learn as much as you can. And, and let me tell you, all this is temporary. You will rise to the top. If you do it right, you will rise to the top. If you screw it up, you will never rise. If you create an antagonistic relationship with him, you will not promote. You will not. If you do it right, you will end up above him in the chain of command.

• 1:08:43Jocko Willink?

  It will take time. It will take swallowing of pride.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  But it will happen. It might take five years. It might take seven years. It might take nine months. I don't know.

• 1:08:57Jocko Willink?

  But that's what you have to do to make it happen. And have fun doing it. If you're gonna go crazy every day, if it hurts you so bad, I make a game out of it. I mean, I'm gonna make a total game out of it where my goal is to build this relationship with this guy. I'm gonna make a game out of it. We're gonna have fun with it. I'm not gonna be angry when I come home from work and go, God, I can't believe I had to shake his hand. No. I'm gonna come back like, you know what? Hey, like talk to my wife and say, hey, guess what? He actually bought me lunch today and we were laughing about the football game. I don't even like football. You know what I mean? I'm gonna, I'm gonna build that and I'm gonna win.

• 1:09:34Jocko Willink?

  And in the long run, you're guaranteed to win if you can play that game. So.

• 1:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Again, everyone thinks it's gonna be like, he does not meet, because I was in the military, he does not meet the standards. What you do is you smash him and report him up the chain of command. Oh, that, good luck with that. You have, this guy is well-connected and has relationships with everyone. They're gonna go, yeah, let's shut up, new guy. Yeah. Cause you're actually proving, not only, you're actually proving, when you do this, you're actually proving that you're not a good leader and that you can't put your ego in check. You're proving that. You can't, you're proving that you can't work with some people. We that guy. Yo, Jocko, he, oh, Jocko can't work with anybody. Jocko's really good as long as he's working with, you know, his team. So what does that mean? That means you're confined for the rest of your life of only working with your team.

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  Whereas if it's, hey, Jocko's good to go. He can work with anybody. Oh, he worked with Bill, who's an egomaniac, and he worked with Mike, who's a lazy bastard. Guess what? Doesn't matter where you put Jocko. He's gonna get it done. Okay, cool. That's the attitude we want people to have about us.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then, but even that is like, it's, it's an art, you know?

• 1:10:36Jocko Willink?

  Of course it is.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Like you're kind of balancing, cause you don't want to be like disingenuous or, or like, or, or fake to the point where they know like, oh, this guy's faking.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  It's like that, that balance, you know?

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  And you know how you do that? You don't be fake.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  You're not just trying to, I'm not, see, this is the thing. I'm not trying to build a relationship with Echo so that I can get promoted.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:00Jocko Willink?

  That will be obvious. I'm trying to build a relationship with you because it's gonna make our team better and it's gonna make us do a better job and it's gonna benefit everyone at the company and at the team. That's why I'm trying to do it. I'm not trying to do it so I can get ahead. If you're that kind of snake, well, then you're just as bad as the other guy. You're just one of those guys that's trying to get ahead. No, what you're doing is you're doing it for the benefit of the team.

• 1:11:22Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't forming relationships with people so I could get promoted. I was forming relationships with people so that we could do a better job, so I could get gear for the platoon. So I could get support from some, you know, supply guy. Oh, yeah. Hey, what's up, buddy? I'm not, I'm not doing it disingenuously. I actually want to be bros with him. So he knows what we got and who knows what we need.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  Nothing disingenuous about that. I'll talk about football. Maybe that's a little disingenuous, but you know?

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, if you say you like football, you don't. Yeah, but that's kind of seems like a superficial thing, you know?

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  If you're so into football and we're working together, I'm gonna actually try and figure out, like, I want to know. Why are you so into it, man? Tell me about it. What's so, like, like, explain that to me. You got 300 pound guys that can run 40, 40 yards in like, seconds? That's impressive. Let me learn about that. Let's get into the game. Nothing wrong with that. Not disingenuous.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  A 300 pound guy running a 40 in 5.0 or less is officially impressive.

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  5.0 or less, 300 pounds. If you're 185, even 200, nowadays 200 pounds.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  4344 or 44 and less.

• 1:12:43Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do then?

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  447.

• 1:12:46Jocko Willink?

  A little less impressive, I heard.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, for college, it's good. I mean, especially back in, back in the day. Nowadays, guys are flying. It's different now and it wasn't even that long ago. Yeah. Anyway.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:13:02Jocko Willink?

  Next question, boy.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  This question is from an army vet that was in Ramadi in 2004.

• 1:13:12Jocko Willink?

  He noted that to me.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Jocko Willink?

  Which is good to hear.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, some context and, you know, respect, yeah. Just started jujitsu, boom. I'm a very, I'm a very step action drill oriented guy. I blame the field artillery officer basic course. Today while training, an instructor was talking to me about the flow and creativity and improvisation that is needed. I'm assuming it comes with time. Any ideas on helping to get that way? Or sorry, any ideas on helping to get away from the step action drill mindset? Or just let it come or do you just let it come?

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's great. And I know you've seen people like this in the jujitsu. I see them all the time. It's people that have the personality that is like an engineer personality. Okay, what do I do? Step one, step two, step three, step four. What, tell me the steps. Quit all this conceptual stuff. Tell me the steps to do. And actually, Higgs was, Jeff Higgs, uh, he was describing a guy that we trained with. And, and the way he described this scenario, he was talking about the specific guy who kind of fits this mold. And this was, this guy was coming to train with us and gonna be one of our students. And Higgs goes, yeah, you know, he, he's really good. He's got, you know, he trained super hard.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  He's strong and um, he's got a very stubborn jujitsu mind, which I gotta kick off. And it's, it's true, but it's this kind of thing where, you know, you just wanna know the steps and you just wanna apply them. And by the way. If you want to teach about options, tell me what the options are then, you know, option one, one A, one B, one C, they want to have that mindset for everything. So

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  that stops you, right? We, we want to get beyond that. We want to get to, it's just like a person playing a musical instrument. You, you can teach them all the notes, but they need to figure out how to play music, right? They need to figure out how to create music. That's the difference. I always say this when, um, if you go to a guitar center, which is a guitar store in America and you put up a sign that says, you know, I need someone that can play the following 27 albums note for note. You'll get, you'll get a hundred phone calls if you put a website that said that, because you're going to record an album or whatever. But of all those people, not all of them can create

• 1:15:45Jocko Willink?

  a musical song that is original and good and all that. So there's the difference, right? This is the difference between like a normal jujitsu player who's by the book and, and then, you know, a person that creates the top level guys that are creating new moves all the time. So that's what we want to become. And it's not just to be a top level guy. It's also to be, it's also how you improve. It's how you get better. You got to figure out how to match the, how to put the notes of jujitsu together. So, and on top of that, it's the same thing with combat. It's the same thing with doing an assault. It's the same thing with an immediate action drill. It's the same thing with moving down a hallway.

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  If all you know and all you can do in your brain is follow the, the steps and follow the standard operating procedures, as much as I talk about standard operating procedures being necessary and mandatory, if all you know how to do is follow them, you will fall short and you will come into a situation where they're not going to work. And now you're going to, you're going to be done. You're going to stop. You're not going to know what to do. That happens in jujitsu all the time. So we need to free our mind. That's what we need to do. We need to free your mind. And how do you do that? Well, first of all, discipline equals freedom. So we want to have the disciplines means we do need to drill the moves. It means we do need to learn the moves. It means we do need to repeat them over and over again so that we get good at them. We do need to do that. But then we've got to set the mind free. And how do you do that? I mean,

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Go outside your comfort zone for one and a lot of guys, everyone does this where you say, you know what, man, I'm getting everyone in this one move. I'm going to stop doing it. I'm going to do another move. I'm not going to guillotine anyone for two months, you know, I'm not going to

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Unless you're Echo, then you might

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, then I'm guillotine. Yeah. So go outside your comfort zone, work on some, uh, work on some move that you don't do. Throw out your best submission and don't use it. So now you're going to be going through all these different, different, you gotta go for different moves. You gotta get creative. Same thing with hitting, hitting your move from different positions that aren't supposed to work. Like for instance, you just talked about the guillotine. I'm a fan of the guillotine, but I do guillotines in weird places. I mean, I have people tap out to my guillotine when I'm, when we're in weird positions that no, you should, like, no one's ever been tapped out and they're like, I don't know how I just got tapped out. How did you do that?

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Jocko Willink?

  How did you do? I was, you know, across the side and I was, yeah, you were, but I had this going on. So try your moves from different positions, random positions. Do try things that shouldn't work too, right? Try a move that's a top move. Try it from the bottom. Try a move that's a move from the bottom. Try it from the top. Try it from the side. Try it from cross side. Try it from butterfly guard. Try these different moves and you'll start to create more. The other thing that will free your mind is when you stop worrying about tapping people out and getting tapped out.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  Worry about progress. Worry about creativity. Try and be more creative. And if all you're worried about is not tapping out, your progress is going to be slow. And if all you're worried about is tapping the other guy out, your progress is going to be slow.

• 1:18:54Jocko Willink?

  If all you're worried about is losing, your progress is going to be slow. So that's it. And I will, actually one more thing. I would say there's a kind of a dichotomy here. In the one, one side, you want to be able to turn your brain completely off and just do whatever happens. And at the same time, you want to force your mind to make yourself do particular moves. Right? Like, so go in one of those. If you're gonna think, think about new moves. Or turn your brain completely off and let things happen as they come.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Jocko Willink?

  And then free your mind.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Turning your brain off and letting the moves kind of, it's almost like you're letting the move happen on its own kind of thing. That comes with time more and more. You know, like when you first start, that's probably not really gonna happen much.

• 1:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And also, like, an example of that is if you were teaching a class and you said, hey, Jocko, come here and, you know, I'm gonna do this sweep on you. And you do the sweep and like, I would defend it immediately. And I go, oh, sorry, man. And I'd have to sit there and not defend the moves so that you could show the sweep. Right? You see what I'm saying? Like, it's a complete instinct for me to stop that move. Or it's a complete instinct for me to grab your hand or, you know, so that's the way, that's the way it works. You want that. You want, you want it to be an instinct. You want all your moves to be instinctual. Because if you have to think about them in real situations, if the other person is good, and you have to think about what you're gonna do, you're gonna, you're gonna lose.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Because they're not thinking. They're, they're getting that quarter second. It takes a quarter second to process. Right? When we used to, you know, shooting pistols, it takes a quarter second for you to see the target, a quarter second to get to your holster, and a quarter second to get the gun out and get the shot out. That's three quarters of a second. So if you, all you had to do was just draw and shoot, you'd, a quarter second's gone. Or if you have the gun in your hand, a quarter second's gone. So, actually Greg Train the other, did that the other day. And I thought about that. That's why, that's why this is fresh in my mind. Like, he grabbed my hand real quick. And I was like, oh, he did that. Sort of like, I used to go for my holster. Because you can go as fast as you possibly can to your holster. Once you get to your holster, you gotta slow down. But you can go so fast to your holster. That's why I used to make up so much, you know, as fast as I could to my holster. And then, and then, once you get there, you gotta slow down,

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  you gotta get front side focused. But Greg Train moved that fast trying to grab my hand, like that. And I was like, I'm gonna start doing that. I was doing that again. Doing a little speed work on him. So yeah, free your mind back to the point here and thanks for your service.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that way of learning, I think it's it's actually pretty prevalent when you first start. Because you don't know, you don't know the move, you don't know why it works. You know that it works because your teacher is teaching it to you, but you don't know like why it works. So it's like, all right, just show me, tell me the steps to do it, walk through it. You learn another move, you learn this move, you learn, you know, he refines your technique, you go roll. You find out, okay, that doesn't work when I do it this way. Or you don't know why it doesn't work. So you got to ask a question.

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  And I'm the kind of learner that I will, I actually, the first thing I want to know is how does this work? Yeah, I want to know that before I know even the steps.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  And a lot of times I teach that way. I'm teaching like, here's the concept of what we're trying to make happen.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Jocko Willink?

  We're trying to get their weight over here. So here's how we're going to get their weight over there. Now, once we get their weight over there, then it's easy to say, hey, now all you need to do is slip your hips here and you're going to be on their back or whatever the case may be. But for me, the concept of what you're trying to make happen is what I like to think about. And it's what I like to teach. And that's the same thing with combat, you know. There's moves that you're going to do on the battlefield, but conceptually, what are you trying to make happen? You know, cover and move is cover and move is the most simple one. You can cover and move an infinite number of ways. But if you don't cover and move, you're going to die. And as long as you have one of those millions of different ways of covering and moving.

• 1:22:42Jocko Willink?

  And I like some guys would get really particular in my, when I was, when I was running training, guys like, hey, you can't do that. And I, and I would say, well, what did they do that you didn't like? Well, you know, he, he should have gone, he should have moved first. Well, did the other guy cover him? Well, yeah. Well, why should the other guy have gone first? Well, that's the way we taught him. Okay, well, does it make sense? Can you give me a reason? Not really. Are they covering and moving? Yes. All right. I think they're good.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're right. They probably are.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's um. It goes along too very much. It seems like anyway, what you're saying about telling people why they're doing what they're doing.

• 1:23:27Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  So it's essentially the same thing.

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  In Jiu Jitsu, you're right, because if you just say grab their arm and pull it into your, you know, neck, so you can sweep them. But what you really want to tell them is like, listen, they're going to put their hand out here for base.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  For balance. So what you want to do is you want to be ready to move it or move it. And you only have to get it, you only have to take their base away for a quarter second. You know, I say that a lot. I say that a lot. Like people in Jiu Jitsu, they try and move. They try and, they try and affect the other person's body for an extended period of time. For 10 seconds.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  For 12 seconds. They try and bring the hand into them so they can sweep them and they hold it there for five seconds. I'm going to hold it for a quarter second because that's all it takes for a sweep to happen. That's all it takes for an arm lock to happen. That's all it takes for a gi t to happen is that one quarter second. It's a quarter second is all you're trying to do. And once you, once you are winning quarter second, quarter second, quarter second, now you're won.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Yep. But again, if I do feel like that, it's a, this is, I mean, it's a, it's probably, I would imagine it's, it's a spectrum with learning Jiu Jitsu. Like, you know how you say some guys, they just tend to learn that way?

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  And then some guys tend to learn the other way. And it's a, you know, it's a spectrum.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Both ways is fine.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  And I think in the beginning, I know it was for me and most people that I've seen, in the beginning, you just, you tend to learn that way. Show me the step. You don't know the everything.

• 1:24:52Jocko Willink?

  No doubt, no doubt.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu, you know?

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  And even me, I mean, I'm the, I'm, I'm probably pretty far in the extreme spectrum of let me understand the concept.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And plus you're advanced though. I think.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  No, no, but I'm talking about when I was beginning.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  In the beginning, even I was like, okay, well, how is this working? Why, why? Like, I wasn't like, show me how to do that. I was thinking, how did that happen?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:13Jocko Willink?

  How, why am I tapping right now?

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  How can I not move? You know, that's what I was thinking.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't thinking, show me the movement. I was thinking, what is going on?

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:25:26Jocko Willink?

  And there's, and there's actually high level guys. You can tell by the way that they teach or the way that they, uh, yeah, by the way that they teach or train, you can tell that there's high level guys on both sides. There's high level guys that are like, like, for instance, guys that drill all the time. Those are the guys that are mechanical. Nothing wrong with it. They win world champions, championships with that. And then there's guys that don't drill, but they roll like crazy and their games will reflect that. Jeff Glover, Jeff Glover, Dean Lister, same thing. Those, you don't see those guys doing a lot of drilling. It's not that they never do it, but if you compare them to, uh, let's say, who's, who's a world champion? I mean, even Galvao, Galvao's a driller. He just will drill.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  And at least from what I've seen, you know, from what I've seen of, you know, videos of him training, he's working a move. And you're like, okay, that's awesome. Guys dominate, dominates fantastic jujitsu.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think at the end, when you become that good, even if that's your primarily method of learning or training or whatever. I think when you gain ultimately like the understanding of, okay, I see, I see why this is important to do this or important not to do this, whatever. Even if you are a quote unquote driller, the creativity part is it's almost like it's uncontainable. It'll always like, even like Galvao where they do drill a lot.

• 1:26:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what? Maybe I wasn't thinking, who made the DVD that was literally called Drill to Win? It was like one, somebody that's really good made a drill to win, right? So that's the kind of attitude I'm talking about again. That's how you get better.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  Drilling, drilling, drilling. And what the, the thing is to what, to, to respond to what you just said is fact. Discipline equals freedom. If you drill and drill and drill and you make those moves so natural, then you're going to free, you're going to hit them from all over the place.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:14Jocko Willink?

  So you're right. The end state is going to be the same.

• 1:27:18Jocko Willink?

  But there's going to be people on all ends of that learning spectrum and training spectrum. They're going to be all over the place.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Jocko Willink?

  And some people like, like, I don't like to drill. Don't enjoy it. Maybe I did at some point. Don't remember, but I would rather roll.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think a lot of. Again, in the beginning, it seems like what kind of learner you are is going to show itself way more.

• 1:27:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Just as far as even preference and how you pick things up and a lot goes with the fact that there's a lot to pick up when you begin, you know, there's so much to learn. So you're like,

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, you absolutely have to drill. I mean, I hope no one's listening to me going, oh, Jocko does rolls. No, you have to drill when you start off. You have to. You have to learn the body mechanics of it.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  So yes, I am talking about a more advanced stage.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  And I think ultimately, just like how you said, though, I think that in time, once you start learning the moves and is given the fact that you are rolling now, you know how some people they'll learn the move, then they'll go home.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  It's rare, but when you you learn whatever this guard pass to the arm bar combo, right? And you know, the steps and grab here, put your knee here, whatever. The guy's your your training partner, your partner for the drill or whatever is, you know, he's letting you do it.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  You become a 10 out of 10 in the drill. You get so good at that drill. You're 10 out of 10. When you go to apply it for real, you're still going to fail.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly right, because you don't know all the all these dynamic variables coming at you. So that's when you gain the understanding.

• 1:28:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  That's when more questions are going to pop up. Okay, that need to be answered. You answer them and boom, there's your learning right there. So the drill is good. Yeah, for the body mechanics, especially at the beginning, because you don't know. You don't like, you're talking about your all your hands, arms, legs, hips, head, everything, arm position.

• 1:29:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, what's even more critical than those things? Because all those things are visible. You can see them. The things that are harder to teach and to understand is the weight distribution and the balance distribution. Those are the things that you can't you cannot see. And there's also one more, which is the tension distribution. Because when I'm pulling on your arm, when I grab your wrist, when I'm holding your wrist, I could be putting tension in 360 degrees, right? If I'm holding your wrist, I could be moving it. I could be putting tension. Now, no one could tell which way I'm putting pushing or pulling or lifting or dragging. No one can tell because your arm isn't moving.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:45Jocko Willink?

  But the tension you can't see, the balance you can't see and the and the.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  The weight distribution, you can't see any of those things. And that's why it's very hard to teach him.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. And really, the only way, and again, back to this thing, it comes with time, is when you roll live with someone, then you're going to see all these different subtle, different scenarios where the stuff you learned.

• 1:30:07Jocko Willink?

  Dean was teaching an arm lock the other day, you know, like a basic arm lock, which I've probably sat there in the class of his and been his, been his dummy a thousand times. And like, somebody asked a question and then he was do, he was doing the arm lock to me. And I realized something that he was doing that I'd never noticed before. And it's, it's, he's pulling the arm towards his head, basically.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Like pulling it.

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  Pulling it towards his head. Yeah. And I mean, in a pretty extreme way. And I realized how incredibly effective it was. It's, it wasn't holding it. He's pulling it. It was, and so like those little things like that, I've, I've been his dummy. And maybe, you know, just because he was being his dummy, he, he didn't, didn't remember or didn't think about doing that step. But the way the question got asked and, and even when he's arm locked me thousands of times, he, you know, I didn't notice it, you know, I just thought, man, he's got a tight arm lock.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:07Jocko Willink?

  But it's like, okay, that was the detail. And I never, you could watch him do that move to me a thousand times, or anyone else a thousand times. Then you wouldn't be able to know that detail unless either he told it to you, or you felt it. And there's, that's the thing that's crazy about jujitsu. There's all kinds of little, little aspects like that. Balance, weight and tension that you just can't, you can't see visually. You can feel them. You can feel them. But even if I say, hey, Echo, actually, you can't feel all of it because you can't feel where I'm putting my weight, if I'm putting my weight into the mat. You can't feel if I'm heavy over here.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:43Jocko Willink?

  You can't feel that. You don't know where I'm heavy. You just know what I feel heavy, but where's my weight going to be? Now, if I, my weight is on you, you can feel it.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:31:52Jocko Willink?

  That's the jujitsu.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  That's the jujitsu.

• 1:31:54Jocko Willink?

  All right. Before we have just a jujitsu podcast.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:59Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Taco, when it comes to leading up the chain, what do you do when your goals aren't seeming to align? Example, making money versus having an impact.

• 1:32:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  This is the deal here. The goals have to align. They have to align and furthermore, they will align. That is, now you might have to go pretty high up the chain to make this happen, or you might have to dig pretty hard to make that happen. But this is a great example, right? The example is making money versus making an impact. And I'm going to tell you that those two actually align. How do they align? Well, let me explain. If your company makes more money, they will have a bigger impact, right? They will have a bigger impact. So let me, let me break it down a little bit.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to have a big impact on a client, right? And so what you do is you spend so much time and so much money with that client, with that customer, you're going to realize that the company, if you invest that much to a client or to a customer, you invest that much time and that much money, your company is going to go out of business. Now, how much impact are you having with that client? The answer is zero. Now, sometimes the opposite happens. And this is probably what the question is related to. For instance, if we, as a company, we start cutting corners on quality, we start cutting corners on customer service, or whatever the case may be, we might make more money in the short term.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  Or like to save money.

• 1:33:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we save money. You know what? We were supposed to have 10 people answering phones. We're going to fire six of them. We're going to have four left. That means everyone's waiting on the phone. So now we don't have good customer service. Now we're starting to write a Yelp review. I was on hold for 14 hours. I hate this company, right? This happens. This is what happens. This is the example. So, so now up the chain of command. So before it was, look, we need 30 people in the call center to answer the phone. And that way, everybody gets an answer within 30 seconds when they call in and when a customer calls in. Okay, we're out of business in a month because we can't afford 30 people. So now we have no impact. The other end of the spectrum is we have three people in the call center responding to phone calls. We, everyone has to wait an hour. Now no one, everyone hates our company. We also have no impact.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:28Jocko Willink?

  So the, the, there. The goals have to be aligned at some case and but the thing is it is a balancing act. It's it's between expenditures for the cost to produce or the cost to provide service. And you've got to keep that as low as possible so that so that money is made, but you can't go so low that quality and customer service and follow on business and customer relations, you can't go so low that it gets destroyed. And so you as a as a worker need to realize that your higher ups are trying to balance that. And they're saying, hey, you can't dedicate this much time or you can't dedicate that much time.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  Echo, you need you're spending too much time with each client. You need to get three more clients. Well, I can't give them the impact that I want. I can't give them the focus. Okay, can you handle one more client? Yeah, I could probably do that. Okay, we're finding the balance. That you know, another good restaurant business, right? Restaurant business is a really easy, simple one to understand because the quality of the food that we get and the quality of the the chefs that we have. The the more it costs to buy the food, the good food and the higher quality chef and cook and help we have, the better the food's gonna be. Well, all that stuff costs more money. So you've got to find that if you you have a restaurant where it's the best hamburger in the world, it's eighty four dollars, you're not going to have a line at that place.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  You but you you have impact because you're having the best burger in America. Guess what? You're not going to be in business to have your impact is going to be zero. Other side of the spectrum, salmonella poisoning because you're because you're buying cheap stuff. You cut, you know, refrigeration costs and and that's guess what? You're going out of business too. So the goals are aligned at the end of the day because profit equals growth. Growth equals impact. Now, you know, are there ethical times where someone says, hey, we're screwing over company? Yeah, absolutely. Look, which happened at Wells Fargo, right? Wells Fargo had a had a.

• 1:36:34Jocko Willink?

  A plague of that type of behavior and it was rampant throughout the whole company. Guess where they're at now? They're hurting. They're hurting. They made a bunch of money in the short term. But guess what? Now they're not trusted. So they gotta do some recuperation. But that's a classic example. Well, someone from Wells Fargo might have asked this question. And you know, a year ago before the story broke and said, hey, Jocko, we're trying to do something positive here. And the company, my goals aren't aligned with the company. And he would have been right and he should have raised his hand because what he could have said was, hey, bosses. If we keep this up, we're going to lose the trust and confidence of the public and we're going to be hurting. And he would have been correct.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta find that balance, but just remember that even though the goals might not seem aligned, they are aligned in the end. They need to be, not saying they always are. But if they're not aligned in the end, you're gonna, you're probably gonna go out of business.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause you just cut a swath of mayhem. You destroy your customers either through high prices or by low service. One of those two things gonna happen if you don't find the dichotomy, the balance, not even dichotomy, it's the balance. You gotta find the balance.

• 1:37:49Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:37:52Jocko Willink?

  What is your next book about? Well, the, the cat is out of the bag essentially now. So. Because the book is available on Amazon right now. It's called The Way of the Warrior Kid and yes, it is a kid's book, but I am telling you. I'm telling you, I've got, this, this is, this book.

• 1:38:18Jocko Willink?

  Is gonna, there's gonna be a lot more people than just kids that learn from this book, myself included. So, um, and you know, so part of it stemmed, I had it in the bank for a while.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  But one of the things that happened is we talked about the Jocko Academy on this podcast. Hey, well, if you ran, somebody asked me the question, great question. If you ran an academy for kids, what would you teach? And I kind of went through what that would be like. And what was cool was when that podcast came out, so many people reached out to me and said, you gotta do this. This will be awesome. And we actually are working behind the scenes slowly to get something moving in that direction.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  But I realized, you know, forming a school the way I want to make it, forming an academy the way I want it to be, it's a, it's a big effort. It's a big financial effort. But how do we help kids in the meantime? Right? How do we help kids in the meantime? Well, I realized what I could do is write a book or finish this book that I had the idea for. So that's what I did. Hammered it out. And this is the story. It's, it's about a kid. Kid name is Mark. And when the story opens up, he's just kind of finishing his, his last couple of days of school. And he's having a rough time. He's having a rough time because he's,

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  well, first of all, he can't do any pull-ups, which may not seem like a big deal, but guess what? In his school, they have little phys PE tests. Yeah. And one of the things they gotta do is pull-ups. Yeah. And so the, the last day of school, like, you know, they have, they have field day in Hawaii? Yeah. So they have field day. So he's just, one of the events they do is pull-ups. How many pull-ups can everyone do? Yep. He's hiding in the back. Hmm. Trying to hide. He doesn't want to do the pull-ups in front of everyone. Guess what? He gets called out. So everybody knows. Confirmed. They knew before some of the, now he's confirmed. He can't, he doesn't, that kid can't do any pulls.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  Class field trip, guess where they go? They go to a pond. They go to a lake and they go swimming. Real fun. If you know how to swim. Mark doesn't know how to swim. So he's, and now they know that too. Not only that, on top of that, doesn't know his times tables, right? Yep. What's six times six? Don't know. So on top of all that, he's getting bullied. He's getting bullied by big Kenny Williamson, big bully, who, who, who calls himself, he calls himself the king of the jungle. Because the jungle gym in the schoolyard? Yeah. Right, right. So horrible last day of school, gets picked on, all that stuff.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  And when he comes home, he's reminded by his mom that his uncle, Uncle Jake, who is in the SEAL teams. Of course. Is getting out of the SEAL teams. He's gonna be going to college after the summer. So this summer, he's staying with Mark. And that's what happens. So Uncle Jake, you know, he kind of hears all these issues that he's having, all these problems. And you can imagine what Uncle Jake said. Uncle Jake said, good. You got problems? Those are the problem, kind of problems we can solve right there. We can take care. You can't do pull ups? No problem. What do we do? We work out. Oh, you don't know your timetables? What do you do? Study. Let me teach you how to study. Let me show you about flash cards.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  Let me show you how to get in the game. Academically. Oh, you don't know how to swim? Guess what? You're gonna learn how to swim. Oh, and you, and you're getting picked on? How do we stop that? Real easy. Little something called jujitsu. Of course. So,

• 1:42:04Jocko Willink?

  that's what happens. The Uncle Jake shows Mark

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  how to be, instead of a wimpy kid, how to be a warrior kid. And

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  teaches him how to be stronger and smarter and better. And it also, you know, he learns about humility. He learns about respect. He learns about

• 1:42:30Jocko Willink?

  courage and determination. And you know,

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I wish that I had this book when I was a kid. Because

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  I think it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be helpful. I think it's gonna be helpful. And that's what, that's what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping it can have an impact on some people's lives. And I hope that, I hope that it allows, you know, parents and kids to get closer together. And you know, as I was, you know, I normally take a, a, a question for kind of like closing. And you know, I, I usually try and pick a question that's gonna be, um, you know, it's gonna be impactful, right? And honestly, man, when I was preparing for this podcast and I was doing the first couple letters that I read,

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  I was just at a point where

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  I didn't think I'd be able to step it up any further. And so I just wanted to think about that. You know, you think about

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  John Burns and his daughter.

• 1:43:52Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  makes me hope that

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  this can bring people together, bring parents closer to their kids. And help their kids move down the right path in life.

• 1:44:14Jocko Willink?

  Because

• 1:44:18Jocko Willink?

  no matter what you think about

• 1:44:22Jocko Willink?

  life and the afterlife and immortality. And whether you believe in that or not.

• 1:44:31Jocko Willink?

  One thing I do know is the one thing that you do leave behind

• 1:44:39Jocko Willink?

  is your kids.

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  So let's give them the best we can. And get them prepared for life.

• 1:44:51Jocko Willink?

  And get them prepared for the sunny days. And the sparkling skies filled with stars.

• 1:45:02Jocko Willink?

  And let's also get them ready for the challenges.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  And the bullies.

• 1:45:11Jocko Willink?

  And the darkness.

• 1:45:14Jocko Willink?

  So that they can

• 1:45:18Jocko Willink?

  survive

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  and thrive. And pass that strength

• 1:45:28Jocko Willink?

  of character

• 1:45:32Jocko Willink?

  on down the line.

• 1:45:38Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:45:47Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  I know it's been a little bit of a rough night for you too. I apologize, but. Maybe.

• 1:45:59Jocko Willink?

  Maybe when you get home tonight, you give your beautiful daughter a little extra hug. And you plant a kiss on the forehead of your son. And before you do that.

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you could tell everyone. How they might be able to support this podcast if they so desire.

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  Before I go too deep into that, let me, I gotta, I gotta admit something. But it's gonna be relevant to me. Okay, I worked out today.

• 1:46:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause a lot of people in the world just went, oh.

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you worked out today.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it worked out today. But this is the part, this is the admission part. Um, I drank some last night.

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  Why?

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  Just, you know, sometimes when you.

• 1:46:48Jocko Willink?

  Weakness.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, ultimately, but. It's one of these things where.

• 1:46:52Jocko Willink?

  Was it some kind of a celebration?

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  No, it was, I was just working and you know, the kind you drink a little bit, you kind of get into it. And then I'm, oh shoot, let me drink some more and more into it. Anyway, just one of those deals. Anyway, nonetheless. Ended up not getting that much sleep and drinking. But I'm like, no, I committed to working out today.

• 1:47:11Jocko Willink?

  You held the line at least.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Held the line, yeah, fully. So, and we're going back to that, the pre-workout stuff. Total performance, I think it's called, you know, on it. Anyway, the pre-workout stuff. So I'm like, all right, now we're gonna, we're gonna see how this works under duress, if you will. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, took it.

• 1:47:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Smashed the workout. Boom. Same pop. That pop I was talking about last time was there.

• 1:47:36Jocko Willink?

  People mentioned the pop on Twitter.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, the pop is real.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Anyway, um, so the moral to that story is

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  So are you telling everyone they can drink? And as long as they have some of this, they'll be good to go? Because I don't want to hear that. You would have been, you'd had more pop.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot more, I think.

• 1:47:53Jocko Willink?

  Had you just kept your head in the game.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, if, if I were to say that, I would have to do a lot more tests. I would have to drink more times.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Let's not do that.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so.

• 1:48:03Jocko Willink?

  We like the new and improved Echo.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  A lot better.

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  Right on. But yeah, total performance is a go. Straight up go, it's in the rotation.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Bro.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:48:14Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Uh, krill oil, krill oil.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Total performance. Alpha brain when needed, shroom tech when needed.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  What other ones did I miss? Oh, uh, warrior bars when needed. That's my go to, that's my E D C. Everyday consumption. Not everyday carry, right? That's the other. Anyway, it's, um, buy on it if you don't know already. I know I said it before, I'm gonna say it again. From on it, the best supplements. Not like power gain or 5,000 supplements, like the for real supplements that, you know? But you gotta do the workout, you gotta do, get your rest, you gotta eat good. The supplements is to supplement. I think people overlooked that.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  You know what? Let's make a bar, a good protein bar or a good steak bar. And we'll just call it good. So that way you have to eat good.

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you eating good? Yep.

• 1:49:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm eating good.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  That's a good diet. So anyway, um, if you want to, if you like these things, if you're down, if you don't already have supplements, um, and, and you want to get some supplements to give you that extra, you know, the boost, the pop in this case, um, go on it.com. If you want 10% off, throw a little slash Jocko in there, you get 10% off. Boom, support everything, support the podcast, support yourself

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  and your gains.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Another way.

• 1:49:44Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  Another way to do it is, or do it, meaning another way to support the podcast, big one. Small but big, Amazon click through. What that is, before you do Amazon shopping, whatever it is you're buying, whether it's a book that you heard on this podcast, or otherwise, or anything. Before you go to amazon.com, go to jocko podcast.com, click on the Amazon banner, then you go do your shopping. So it kind of supports that way. It's like this three way of support thing going on. Small action, big impact.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  So yeah, that's a good one. Subscribe, of course, to iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  Write a review on iTunes.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  Do that.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, boom, support.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  If you want. Anyway, it seems obvious that you subscribe to iTunes already, but in the event of you not subscribing, good subscribe if you want to support in that way.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  Whatever it is you use, Google Play, Stitcher.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Stitcher, yeah.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  There's another app I've been hearing lately, but I can't remember what it is.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  It's not Spotify, is it? That's something else. That's not podcasts. I don't know. But yeah, just subscribe, boom. If it's on there. And then YouTube, so I put out more videos on a more consistent basis. I think I put one up today, yesterday? Sometime very recently. And you want to subscribe to the YouTube channel?

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Want to watch the videos, get updates when the videos come out. That's a good way to support too. And then, of course,

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. You can get cool stuff. I think it's cool.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying go buy their shirts. I'm not saying that. I'm saying go look on there. We made an effort collectively to put some cool stuff out there. But keep in mind, that's our opinion. That's my opinion, that they're cool. If you think they're cool, then you get a shirt.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. And you can support that way. The shirt says rash guards for jujitsu or any kind of physical activity. A lot of people use them for cycling and CrossFit, whatnot.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Really good for that. They look cool. I think they look cool. The patches, the Velcro ones came back in. So we've got Velcro patches back. Some bumper stickers and hoodies, of course. We'll come out with some more stuff, I think.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  I support that idea.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  You support, okay, good. There you go. So yeah, if you want to support that way and Jocko supports this idea, I feel like that's another three-way support, closed-circuit deal. It's good to get in that if you want, if you like it. And then, of course, psychological warfare. Okay. If you don't know what psychological warfare is, it's

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  an album you can get and each track is

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  when you feel weakness of like waking up, like if you're, you know, those days, and I'm gonna speak from experience, because I know a little bit about this, the day where you're kind of hungover. I know, this was a long time ago. Maybe you're hungover, maybe you're tired, you didn't get that much sleep, maybe, um, maybe your mind is on something else and you're like, I know I told myself it was gonna work out today, but today I'm not feeling it. I'm gonna turn today into a rest day. When you're thinking that, like those moments of weakness, you listen to one of these tracks, two of these tracks, whatever.

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  It's Jocko telling you why you should not skip today. It, it, see you're waging psychological warfare on your mind. Yes, and the weaknesses that are trying to reveal themselves in your mind. And I can say with 100% certainty that if you're having a day of, or a moment of weakness, and you listen to this track, whether it be, you're about to eat some, you know, when you're hungry, when you missed like lunch, and you're like, dang, I'm hungry, and you see like, in the, you know, in whatever, get donuts or Oreos or whatever. When you're real hungry, okay, it's kind of hard. Anyway, if you're having a moment of weakness like that, whether it be food stuff, waking up early, skipping workouts, whatever, listen to this.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  I'll say with 100% certainty, you won't, you won't lack, you won't slack.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, and there's also an awesome, uh, uh, young girl on Twitter, who was someone's daughter, and she's saying, she's saying, "Sugar-coated, those donuts are sugar-coated lies." I actually got fired up. I was like, I don't, I'm not gonna eat a donut ever again. I retweeted it, it's awesome. That was, that was classic. And, and you can get it on iTunes, but you can also get it on Amazon.

• 1:54:22Jocko Willink?

  Dot com or like Amazon Music? It's I saw it on Amazon.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Oh, it's on there. Okay.

• 1:54:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't know.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing. The very, how should I say, very competent distributor that we're working with.

• 1:54:35Jocko Willink?

  They distribute it.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  I did choose all these things and I forgot that I went through that process already because I was so focused on like iTunes or whatever. And yes, so I ended, the fact is I end up going through that process and it did get distributed through there. But since I don't use, I mean, I use Amazon Music, but iTunes just seems like the obvious one. I just didn't think about it.

• 1:54:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, what's cool about Amazon is it puts when you, if you look at

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Jocko White Tea, it'll say extreme ownership. It'll say way of the warrior kid, and it'll say psychological warfare all right there from Amazon. It's pretty awesome. Boom. The way they understand your desires.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's no way you could resist that one. When it's right there, you're like, hey, this is awesome. I'm going to get the, the, the, the, the grand slam. Order them all.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, also, yeah. So speaking of that, you can get the Jocko White Tea. You've had it by now and you know the deal.

• 1:55:37Jocko Willink?

  You know that you're, you know, that your clean and jerk is just out of control. You're throwing that thing through the roof. Also for international orders, by the way, I hate to do this because it's going to put some work on the resourcing company that's doing this for it. But if you go international, go through eBay. There's an official listing of Jocko Podcast. You'll see that it's sold by Pro Resourcing. And they also is like, it says the shipping is a hundred dollars. That's not the shipping. There's like variated shipping. So they just kind of quote that price, but then I think they figured it out later. So they don't have to ask me about that. But um, yeah, we're trying to get it to people overseas. I'm not saying it's

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  gonna not sell out quickly, but it's there.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  If also, if you, if you like, when we talk about war or leadership on this podcast, you can put, pick up the book Extreme Ownership. Right. Myself and my brother Leif Babin wrote it. And that's what we talk about, leadership and war.

• 1:56:44Jocko Willink?

  And like I said earlier, go ahead and get some copies of The Way of the Warrior Kid. You're gonna dig it.

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership muster is happening May 4th and 5th at the Marriott Marquis in New York City. It's a conference for people that want to get after it. That's what it is. Leadership on the battlefield in business and in life. Why do I say battlefield? Well, first of all, because we have military people that will be there. We have police officers that will be there. So they're on the battlefield, right? Business, obviously, we have business people, firefighters, they're there in battle with fire. But it's a lot of it, majority of it's business people that want to get after it. And it's also people that want to get after it and lead in life.

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna sell out. We have a, if Echo finally.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Quality, not quantity.

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  Finally.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  A great video executed later is better than a good video executed now.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  Probably have a video up pretty soon. And until then, until the muster, if you do want to cruise with us, we can be found deep, deep inside the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram. And if you has that Facebooky boha, we gonna be on that one too.

• 1:58:12Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thanks for listening to this podcast and thank you for supporting it

• 1:58:28Jocko Willink?

  with everything that you do to support it. But more important, thanks for getting in the game with us, losing weight or gaining weight or learning jujitsu or leading better.

• 1:58:42Jocko Willink?

  Guys like Army Vet James Kenny. You know what? 64 years old, no factor. Surgery, no factor. Torn muscles, no factor.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  Three hour or something commute to the gym to train jujitsu? No factor. Intrinsic will and discipline? Big factor. Cause James, 64 years old, just got his blue belt.

• 1:59:13Jocko Willink?

  Congratulations, James. And I know a ton of you are out there doing the same thing. Military members out on the battlefield, police officers on the beat, firefighters on the scene, you're doing the same thing, smashing obstacles.

• 1:59:31Jocko Willink?

  And the rest of you in the workforce, working,

• 1:59:38Jocko Willink?

  grinding through the day and the night, to get your work done and still getting after the workouts and the family events and the jujitsu classes.

• 1:59:51Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for what you are doing.

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  And for realizing that if you have the will

• 2:00:00Jocko Willink?

  and the discipline, the obstacles you face are no factor. And they cannot stop you

• 2:00:11Jocko Willink?

  from getting after it.

• 2:00:15Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Out.