#ICYMI - Women’s Boxing, with World Champion Alicia Ashley

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. What does it take to be World Champion? How can women’s boxing gain more popularity? Can you be a fighter and a trainer? Hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly step into the ring with World Champion Alicia Ashley, astrophysicist and boxer Federica Bianco, and former Olympic-style boxer Cary Williams. Photo Credit: CES boxing (CSB photography).

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:02Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:03Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. Last year, we had the privilege of speaking to boxing legend Sugar Ray Leonard, which was such a pleasure and a big deal for the Playing with Science family. So it's only right to share the stage with the women. And we've got some seriously heavy hitters for you. An astrophysicist and a professional boxer, yes, Federica Bianco. Golden Gloves Hall of Famer and world champion Alicia Ashley. And boxer, trainer, entrepreneur and philanthropist. And founder of Boxing and Barbells, the one and only Carrie Williams. So, round one, Chuck, who's first in the ring?

• 0:48Chuck Nice?

  Right now, we get to speak to boxing's badass. That's right, we're talking professional boxer and astrophysicist Federica Bianco. How are you?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  I am good.

• 1:04Chuck Nice?

  You bring the world of boxing and astrophysics together. What a perfect... It's like you were made for playing with science, you know?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  That's right. It really does sound like a much made in heaven.

• 1:17Chuck Nice?

  It really does. So, let me ask you. You know, when you look at the cosmos and you look at the ring, are there any areas of boxing and astrophysics that overlap in such a way where the two inform one another or that they're very similar?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  No, I mean, hard to say that they would be very similar, but of course they inform each other.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  For me, both of them have to do a lot with my confidence and my self-awareness and my ability to analyze things. And I learn from one and from the other and I bring back and forth the experience of one and the other. In the boxing ring, my nickname is the Met Scientist. So I wish I could say that I'm really an analytical and scientific boxer. I'm not. At heart, I'm really, really a browler. But the skill in the sport is that of staying calm and analyzing things, so. That's very close to physics.

• 2:25Gary O'Reilly?

  So Federica, is it correct you were a dancer as well as a martial artist before you became a boxer?

• 2:32Chuck Nice?

  Is this true?

• 2:33Speaker 02

  I was not in the sense that I was not a professional dancer, but that's how I started, yes. My path to the ring came through dancing and then capoeira, which is sort of like a dance-inspired martial art and then boxing.

• 2:48Gary O'Reilly?

  You know Alicia Ashley was once a dancer?

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, I do.

• 2:51Gary O'Reilly?

  And when we spoke with Sugar Ray Leonard, he talked about the choreography. He talked about how it is a dance.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  And it's a performance. And that actually is really a key point that people might not think, it might not come through as we are aware of that in the ring, but at least as far as I myself, and I know that's true also for Alicia, like you also want to think about it as a performance, right?

• 3:18Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. So now that you said that, since it's a performance and it requires a great deal of concentration, it would seem like boxing just takes so much concentration, almost to the point where you got to have tunnel vision and block out so many other things. And since it's a performance, so does being a scientist give you an edge in terms of that concentration? Since like the scientific disciplines require so much concentration and kind of just training your thoughts in one direction. Would you say that's the case or have you ever thought about it?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  So I think, no, I think about these things a lot, really. But I think that the tendency and the training in problem solving is what helps me sort of thinking about martial arts in that way. So that perhaps works a little bit more clearly in the training than when you're actually fighting. Because when you're fighting, don't get me wrong, like it is like a puzzle that you're trying to solve, right? How do I take advantage of the things that my opponent is doing to get an edge? It might not be obvious when one is fighting because it looks like very chaotic from the outside. But as you said, you really need to be sharply focused. And on the inside, it is like sort of a surprisingly calm place.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I've heard it from some other boxers describing how like things sort of happen. In slow motion while you're fighting. And you kind of have a very, a part of you is kind of like very analytical and calm and cold observing what is happening, which is of course not what it looks like when you're, you know, you have somebody that is trying to take your head off and coming up for you in the ring.

• 5:04Gary O'Reilly?

  I see when I was reading before we get to speak today, you describe yourself, and I love this, as a student of life. And say that you see boxing as a mind clearing experience. You're gonna have to explain that more, please.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Right, uh, so just what I said, um, about the fact that it's all about being collected and calm in spite of the chaos around you. It's sort of very meditative in that sense.

• 5:36Chuck Nice?

  Very nice, yeah. So let me ask you this, was it, uh, I mean, for women boxers, um, which I see that boxing has really grown in popularity because of the training and the workout. So every, it seems like every gym now has, has a boxing workout, uh, that, that they offer. Uh, but you need so much more than that when you're training for a fight. And steel sharpens steel. So how do you find your sharpener in a sport where there's not that many participants?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  That's a very good point. So, uh, when I started boxing, I was in California, I was in Santa Barbara. And there were far fewer opportunities to spar with women, um, in Santa Barbara. So I was regularly sparring with guys and you know, there's, um, there's advantages to that. Um, guys tend to be, uh, faster, their punches tend to be a little bit more stingy. Um, so that kind of gives you an edge. But also there's disadvantages because of the sort of the level of intensity and the competition is a little bit different, given that there is already like a well-known and acknowledged difference in the mind of the two people that are sparring.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  In New York, it's kind of a blessing that there are many women. So, you know, I met Alicia because I started sparring with her when she was getting ready for fights. We all know each other, we all spar with each other. You very often end up fighting people that you certainly know and that sometimes that you have sparred with. Of course, you're only as good as, you know, as you can be as the people that train with you, right? You just, it's not an individual sport, in spite of what it looks like. It's very much a team sport and your training partners, your sparring partners are very much part of the team.

• 7:33Chuck Nice?

  Interesting. So what would you say to anyone, not just women, but anybody who's interested in boxing that might inspire them to try it?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  So I think, you know, as you said, it's getting more and more popular because of the fitness that is involved. It is a tremendous fitness exercise, it really taps on a lot of things, like sort of, you know, a lot of parts of your body are involved, so it's a very healthy exercise, sort of like for your entire physiology. There's a lot of cardio and also there is the aspect of the focus, which makes it more intriguing than just doing physical exercises. As far as boxing competitively or anyhow getting in the ring, everybody, you know, people that train boxing should try.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Because in my experience, the feeling about it is very different than one expects it to be. And it goes both ways. I've heard people say like, you know, I'm getting in the gym just for training and be like, no, because I want to become a professional boxer, so I see my trajectory like three years, I want to be professional. And getting punched in the face the first time and realize how a big mistake that was, that they just did not at all wanted to have anything to do with that. But at the same time, people that do not think of themselves as fighters, that do not think of themselves as aggressive or competitive in that way. Really isn't, that's not the feeling that you have inside the ring. So it has a very different feeling from the inside than it might look from the outside.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  And I've seen people that never thought they would like it, just fall in love at first bunch.

• 9:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow. I mean, I must ask you, Federica, just how tough is it in the women's boxing scene? Because it's, it's nowhere near on a par with the men's side of the sport. So how tough is it for the women?

• 9:26Speaker 02

  So like the business side?

• 9:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Everything, all of it.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  So, well, let's say, it's getting better, but it begins with, you gotta find a trainer that wants to train you. So somebody that believes that women can box. Not everybody believes that women can or should box. Also boxing is a little bit of an old school sport. And so not every trainer is even considering training a woman. And then if you wanna box seriously, like if you have aspirations of becoming professional, etc., you had to find the trainer that is rather selfless, because there's not a lot of money. So it's not like they're gonna, you know, make a living out of a woman boxer. It's just, right now, it's not happening. So you had to find the trainer that does it because they love it and because they like you.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  And once you pass that, you know, something that obviously people ask me, but they really should ask it to any woman professional boxer is, how do you do two jobs? Because nearly all women professional boxers also have a job. Generally, it's not astrophysics, but make no mistakes, very few women can sustain themselves with boxing. And if they do that, they sustain themselves with boxing by also training other people, etc. And the two jobs is not the problem. The problem is the third job that most women have to do of finding themselves fights or provide opportunities and striving for sparring and finding, you know, just the enormous amount

• 10:57Speaker 02

  of effort that it takes to get contracts and just be sort of, be taken seriously. That is the third job, and that's the hardest one of all of them.

• 11:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Is it as quite, is it quite simple just to say the solution would be if there were more money in the sport?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  I don't think we need more money. We need women to get paid better, sure.

• 11:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes. So if there was a bigger purse, for instance, if there was more money on offer for the fighters, then the trainers would get more money, then you'd probably get better trainers. Is it simple as that, or is it more nuanced?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  No, I think it's more nuanced. I think, you know, it kind of goes back to women in sport altogether. There is a perception that that's not something that people want to see at the level of the performance. And I think that perception is, in my experience, is largely wrong. People, you know, there's not a lot of fights on TV, but the women, but now there are many more fights on TV than before, and those fights are watched with high ratings. But also, every time you go to a show, like, you know, a small club show in Queens or whatever, and there's a women's fight, you hear it all the time, "The women's fight was the most entertaining bout of the night."

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Because, partly maybe because it's so hard to get to the point where you finally have a fight that you're not gonna phone it in, you're just like gonna put your heart in it because it's a hard way up.

• 12:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  So that might be part of the reason, but the women's fights are always entertaining. They're always like, you know, going gung ho and just really working hard at that fight.

• 12:44Chuck Nice?

  So, now, you know, so female fighters in MMA, they seem to have become a lot more popular. What is it about, do you think, MMA that makes the female fighters so much more popular in MMA?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  No, it's just the fact the exposure. I mean, MMA, Dana White started off saying like, "No, women are not gonna fight in my, in the UFC, they're just not gonna do that." And then he changed his mind, put women on cards, the fights were watched, people liked them, he put more women on cards, he made a business decision that just worked. I think it would work for boxing, too. I think some of the boxing business world is starting to see that, right? You know, obviously Clarissa is televised more, televised at every fight, but there are many other fighters that get some less, but some exposure. All the recruits from the first Olympic Games with women.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  It's changing slowly and it's changing. At this level, it's changing for few, not for sort of like the bulk of women boxers. Hopefully, it's just a matter of time.

• 13:57Chuck Nice?

  Cool. So it's just a matter of exposure.

• 13:59Gary O'Reilly?

  How long? Because some of the women have been waiting a while now. If you think about Alicia's age, which I won't mention because she will punch my lights out. But she had to wait a while for things to come her way. I mean, how long do you think?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  And every time she needs to get a fight. It's, you know, it's hard to get a fight and she had to wait a long time in between fights. She never fought in Jamaica, which is her hometown, and I know that that was a really big desire of hers. So I don't know how long. And I think, you know, there's always the risk that it's a bubble. There were bubbles of women boxing in the past with Christine Martin, Leida Lee, and Lucia Riker, who's one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. And then the bubble burst and women were not boxing on TV for another, like, I don't know, 15 years. So hopefully, this is not a bubble. But it's hard to say how long.

• 14:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow. Federica, thank you so much for being our guest and opening our eyes.

• 14:58Chuck Nice?

  I have one more question.

• 14:59Gary O'Reilly?

  You've got one more?

• 15:00Chuck Nice?

  I've got one more.

• 15:00Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, one more time. Let's do it.

• 15:02Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. You're an astrophysicist. What planet would you love to fight on? And what planet would you hate to fight on?

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Oh, OK. I really don't want to fight on Venus because it's hot up there.

• 15:17Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Fighting in, you know, in a sauna doesn't sound good at all. How about Saturn? We can hop between ring particles, all the particles that make the ring, and just, you know, have one fight on each one of them.

• 15:32Chuck Nice?

  It's fighting in a different kind of ring. Right on.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right.

• 15:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Now how about that for a little bit of logic? From one ring to another. Federica Bianco, thank you so much for being our guest on Playing with Science. Thank you so much. The astrophysicist who is also a professional boxer. Yeah, that's just quite a combination. We are going to take a break. Next up, Carrie Williams, the boxer, the trainer, the Olympic level trainer, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Yeah, that's going to be another great interview. And of course, don't forget, we have Alicia Ashley coming up as well. Stick around, we'll be right back.

• 16:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. We've just been speaking to Federica Bianco, our astrophysicist and professional boxer. I think now it's time to take a slightly different turn into the world of women's boxing. This is Carrie Williams this time, former Olympic-style boxer, Olympic-level boxing coach, boxing club owner, cover model, speaker, entrepreneur, philanthropist, and behind boxing and barbells and the brand Never Too Pretty and Never Too Pretty Movement, hashtag Never Too Pretty Movement. So a lady with not much time on her hands.

• 17:13Chuck Nice?

  When do you sleep, Carrie? My goodness.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 17:18Chuck Nice?

  What, do you just take a cat nap between the hours of 6:00 and 6:30?

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Uh, lots of cold brew.

• 17:23Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, power naps. I have to ask you, what personally attracted you to the world of boxing?

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Ah, well, it's kind of a backwards story. When I got out of college, I actually have an environmental science degree. So, yeah, but growing up, I was always an entrepreneur, you know, selling, you know, mistletoe door-to-door or whatever. And I didn't want to work for the government. And, you know, I did it for like a year out of college and I was like, this isn't for me. I can't sit in a cubicle. Um, I want to own my own business. And I wasn't sure what that was going to be. And I had a friend in high school and uh, he was a professional boxer. And he would always tell me, oh, you know, I go to the boxing gym, but there's no, you know, treadmills, there's no weights. Uh, and then people who tried to come into the boxing gym to work out were just pushed

• 18:15Speaker 03

  away because you either came in there to be a fighter or you didn't get to train. So I thought, wow, there's no gyms out there where the average person could walk off the street and just do boxing as a workout, but really learn boxing, like legitimately learning. So I said, I'm going to open a gym.

• 18:32Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  And uh, yeah, and back then the internet really wasn't like it is now. Uh, this was 20 years ago. And so I went and bought a book called Business Plan for Dummies. And I wrote a business plan and I went to a bank and I got a small loan. I got an SBA loan. That's a long story. But I opened my first boxing gym in 1998. And uh, so I had never boxed before that. I actually was not even into fitness. I was terrible at P, you know, I hated PE and was not an athlete. I was, you know, more of an academic girl, the straight A girl, the scholar, not really a scholar, but I was smart. And so that's how it all started.

• 19:13Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So let me, let me just take a second. I gotta, I gotta rewind this tape just back to a little bit and go right back to the statement, I sold mistletoe door to door. Okay. Cause by the way, I tried that and people just said, get out of here, you pervert.

• 19:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, there'll be a reason for that, Chuck.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  I put bows on it. You did it, baby.

• 19:39Chuck Nice?

  That's it. That could be it. But no, seriously, um, I read a couple of reviews about you. Um, and here's what they pretty much all said. Um,

• 19:51Chuck Nice?

  This woman is awesome. She doesn't teach you how to get into shape. She just teaches you to box and getting into shape is the result. Is that, is that just your philosophy? Is that, yeah?

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, obviously, I'm passionate about the sport. It's my love and I respect the sport entirely. So even if somebody comes to me and they say, oh, I just want to lose weight or, you know, I just want to get in shape and I heard boxing is a great way to do it. You're gonna learn how to fight. You know, whether you step in the boxing ring or you don't, it doesn't matter. You're gonna learn the same way I train all of my fighters. Uh, so that is my philosophy of training.

• 20:31Chuck Nice?

  Wow, that's really cool. That's really cool.

• 20:33Gary O'Reilly?

  So I must ask you, um, sort of poacher gamekeeper thing. How different is it from being the fighter to being the trainer?

• 20:43Speaker 03

  Well, uh, you know, being a fighter is, well, I was a trainer before I was a fighter. So again, it's pretty backwards. So I, I, the gym got busy. I needed to help on the floor, so I became a coach. And then after that, I thought, well, it's kind of hypocritical to be a coach and never have stepped in the boxing ring. And, you know, I can't be a hypocrite. So then I started to compete. Now, stepping into the ring was a little easier for me as far as the nerves because being outside of the ring and having a fighter in the ring, you get very nervous for that athlete. And so a lot of that was taken away from me. So when I stepped in the ring, I wasn't as nervous. Um, and being in the ring is, when you do it over and over again, it's like being in like a slow motion movie.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Like you're in a movie, everything is slowed down. So punches coming at you, they look, they appear to be coming slowly so that you can react. The naked eye outside the ring is looking in and going, wow, that's really fast. But you're seeing it like, and that was quite an experience. Um, it's very strategic, obviously, too. It's like playing chess in the ring. Um, coaching outside of the ring is super rewarding. I find coaching more rewarding than, than competing because competing is for me.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  Coaching is for somebody else and being able to do something for somebody and change somebody's life in a really positive way, uh, that's, I mean, you can't put money on that.

• 22:09Chuck Nice?

  Nice. By the way, I see punches coming in slow motion, but they land anyway and it ends up being that, it ends up being that shot where the guy's cheek collapses under the fist and then the blood spurts. Yeah, you know that shot. Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  That's the shot. That's the money shot.

• 22:25Gary O'Reilly?

  But, okay, let's go, but let's go back to the slow motion Peck and Power movie, boxing. Are you not able to train your mind? Cause I can't imagine for one second, these things are slow, right? It's, it's just not, I can't get my head. But you must be training your mind to facilitate how you kind of distort the time to slow these down.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  You know what? I think it comes from controlling your adrenaline. And so you're doing something repetitively over and over again, and then you're in that situation, that fighting situation in your face. You, you know, first, you know, when you're first training and you're sparring, you're fighting, you're, you have a lot of adrenaline, right? Someone's trying to beat the crap out of you. Um, but doing it over and over again, you start to learn how to control that. And so now you're not just very anxious and nervous. It's more of a relaxed thing. And so for some reason, it slows everything down, like inertia maybe. Uh, so it's, it's very interesting.

• 23:29Chuck Nice?

  Wow. That's, that's pretty wild.

• 23:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Isn't it?

• 23:33Chuck Nice?

  That's pretty wild, man.

• 23:34Gary O'Reilly?

  So what was the hardest thing? What, what for you was the hardest aspect of boxing? You said you started to coach first and then went into the ring yourself. But what was, what is for you the hardest aspect?

• 23:46Speaker 03

  As a fighter or as a coach?

• 23:50Gary O'Reilly?

  He's a rule, or both?

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Uh, let's see, as a fighter, the hardest thing for me, well, there's two things. One is I don't like to get hit. Uh, and the, the other thing is that the training, the training is so hard for competition. Um, I don't like running and you have to do a lot of running for conditioning. Um, I don't mind sprints, but I don't like the, the conditioning of the longer runs. Um, so yeah, I don't, I didn't really like that part of it. I love the part of being in the ring and being strategic. You know, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna feint, I'm gonna make them do this and then I'm gonna counter with this. That was really enjoyable to me. Um, coaching wise, there's not a lot that I don't like about it because I'm in control

• 24:34Speaker 03

  of it. So if it's repetitive and it's for competition, then it's always rewarding to see them do something a gazillion times and then they finally get it. Uh, but I mean, as far as coaching, I can't really say that there's anything I don't like about it.

• 24:49Chuck Nice?

  Wow. When you talk about stamina and training and that, that endurance, are, are there any other things that you can do aside from running? Like for instance, I have terrible knees, I can't run at all. What if I, not speaking as a fighter, just speaking as a layperson or regular person, what if I wanted to build up stamina? What else could I do other than running, which puts that pounding on your knees?

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Uh, I would say probably getting in the pool and doing sprint work in the pool.

• 25:20Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  You know, other than that, that sprint work has to happen. Um, I've never honestly tried it with somebody who has had such issues to where they couldn't do the sprint work, but I would, I would gather that, you know, because they're fighters.

• 25:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, there probably shouldn't be boxing. Like, I don't know too many boxers that get in the ring, they're just like, listen, my knees are shot to hell. So I'm just saying.

• 25:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh Chuck, you'll find any excuse.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  And then we always say like a fighter with an excuse is not really a fighter, you know, so.

• 25:53Chuck Nice?

  And you, and I have a similar saying, I have a similar saying, and that saying is, I'm not really a fighter. There you go. Funny how that works out. Hey, so listen, you're, you do all this other stuff, I mean, and before we started the show here, I was talking to you about something that I saw online about you, and it's called The Weight Loss Show, which I thought was just incredible. Now, full disclosure, I didn't get a chance to look into it the way I wanted to. And so I thought you had had a baby because you had all these, you had all these great like shots of you beforehand, and you were like all cut up and looking great and like super fit. And then all of a sudden, you were like overweight and out of shape. And then you were, and then you were all of a sudden like fit again. So what was that weight loss show? What was that all about?

• 26:38Speaker 03

  It was called Fit to Fat to Fit. And the premise of the show, it was on Lifetime, and I think it's on Amazon or Netflix now. But the premise is that you gain as much weight as you can as a trainer, as a trainer. Gain as much weight as you can in four months and then lose all of that weight in four months. Now, the reason to do that was that you were to have a friend or a family member who needed to lose a lot of weight.

• 27:02Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  And so the idea was that you kind of step into their shoes. So that you can understand what it's like to work out and lose weight and the challenges that you face as an overweight person. So that's why I did the show. It took a lot of rehearsing for them to get me on the show because I really did not want to gain weight. But it's funny, when I did gain the weight, people thought I was pregnant, but they wouldn't say anything because they were like, but then after I lost it, they were like, oh my God, I thought you were pregnant the whole time, so.

• 27:30Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm one of those idiots. Yeah, so there you go. That's exactly what I did. So let me ask you, so now you're a little bit more empathetic to people who have gained weight? And you've had the experience like documented. Psychologically, okay? Because I think a lot of weight loss is psychological. So psychologically, what's the best advice you can give to somebody who's struggling right now? They're like, I want to look better, I want to feel better, and I can't just seem to do it.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  It is all mental strength. No matter who it is, how much weight you need to lose, what your goals are, it is all up in your head. So until you get your mind right, you will never, ever get your body right.

• 28:14Chuck Nice?

  Damn it, I'm never gonna get my body right.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Your mind is wrong. No, it's really just mental. It really, really is. And you have to set that in your head. It's like, you know, when they say when you hit rock bottom, and all of a sudden you're like, boom, I'm gonna do it. And nothing's gonna deter me. You have to get to that point, and you have to be strong, and you have to have will, power, obviously. But all those things, it's just in your head, and you have to just do it. And I know it's like, whoa, oh, well, isn't there an easier way? Isn't there a trick? Isn't there some magic fairy dust I can put on me? And it's gonna help me figure it out? There's really not. It's just if you really want it, then you do it. So, I mean, that's what I got out of the whole thing. You, what can, what can you do? My friend, who was a really, who is a really close friend of mine,

• 29:04Speaker 03

  she had a lot of weight to lose. We worked on her losing the weight. And she lost a lot of the weight, but there were, I mean, the show's all about drama, right? I mean, there was some drama throughout that process, because there were so many times where she was just, well, I really wanted to eat that burger. You know? Oh, well, and then she would have an excuse as to why she couldn't get to the gym. So it's really, you have to be dedicated to what you want. It's your life, right? If that's your goal, then you have to, you have to make those struggles and sacrifices to get there.

• 29:35Chuck Nice?

  It is amazing how many times on this show, that same thing just keeps coming up from all these athletes. Everybody that we talked to. Gary was a professional footballer. And, you know, it just seems like this is just the theme that just runs through every single thing that has to do with, with, with sports and, and fitness.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, it doesn't change. No, it's all in your head.

• 30:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, there's plenty of room up there in mine. I must, I must ask you. Why are, why is the sort of boxer size, the boxing regime, exercise program so attractive to women?

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Well, I truly believe that it's because it's empowering. I mean, a lot of women were very fearful to, to come to, like when I opened my first boxing gym 20 years ago, it was open to everybody, but it was still mostly men that were coming in. And it was really a challenge to get those women to take that step in. They were very scared of it. Oh, people are just hitting each other. You know, there's this idea that, you know, even to watch boxing, people go, oh, they're just hitting each other. It's brutal. They don't see the, the beauty behind the sport, you know, they don't see the science behind the sport. Uh, they don't see all of that. They just see two people and they're hitting each other. So it was challenging at first to get women in and now, you know,

• 31:02Speaker 03

  as we started coming into the sport, then we get more media coverage and, and then women go, oh, wait, she can do it. You know, they look at somebody who might be petite or, or whatever, uh, very feminine and they go, oh, wow, she's in there and she's a badass and I want to be that. And so it really helps to bring more women into the sport. And then once they taste it, forget about it, you know? That's it, you know, they're beasts, like it's, it's just super empowering. Makes you feel really strong, um, as a person in general, um, it makes you feel accomplished. Um, and I, that's why I truly believe in teaching the sport and not just as a workout. Because sure, you feel accomplished after you do a great workout, but how much more accomplished do you feel when you actually learn how to throw a proper punch?

• 31:46Speaker 03

  You learn how to slip a shot. You learn a combination that's realistic to the game, uh, so it is super rewarding.

• 31:53Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. Um, before we go, and we will be going shortly, I'm sorry to say, your philanthropy work, how does that come about and does that still have its roots in boxing?

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Well, it kind of does. I mean, I used to have a nonprofit up north where we worked with a lot of youngsters in the boxing world, of course. A lot of kids who couldn't afford training or travel expenses for tournaments, that sort of thing. Now I have it, through the Too Pretty brand, we have a nonprofit also. So it's a female empowerment brand, so it's really kind of bringing those girls into themselves. Like, they go, "I'm a girl, but I can do anything I want to do. I'm not, you know, I'm not in this gender box," so to speak. So I work with that. It's a movement more so than it is anything else, and it's really just kind of a message to send to the young girls. You know, as far as more philanthropy,

• 32:49Speaker 03

  I mean, I've done a lot of it, absolutely. I did a knocking out obesity tour and toured the country and worked with middle school students for a whole month, teaching them boxing. So I have done a lot of that. Right now, it's more so just kind of being that person that's on social media that's encouraging the young girls and the women to do whatever they want to do, irregardless of what gender they are.

• 33:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Cool. That is cool. Yeah. And I think, you know, the more people that take that baton and run with it, the better. And it's a fabulous message. And I think the people we've been speaking to on this show are exactly the kind of people that they can look up to. And the work that you're doing will maybe increase those numbers. And, you know, the world of boxing will find people come out of your classes or classes like that and actually pick up the gloves and step into the ring for real.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. It's a beautiful sport.

• 33:47Gary O'Reilly?

  That's the sweet science. There you go. So, we're gonna take another break. Thank you to the wonderful Carrie Williams, and an insight into another stream of the world of boxing. Now, coming up next, a world champion and a Golden Gloves Hall of Famer, none other than Alicia Ashley. I know. You're not going away, are you? See you shortly.

• 34:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Joining us now is Alicia Ashley, former WBC Female World Super Bantamweight Champion. And this, this blows me away, the younger sister of Chess Grandmaster Maurice Ashley and former World Kickboxing Champion Devon Ashley. You're a multi-title holder when it comes to boxing, so we'll take focus and bring it on to you.

• 35:00Chuck Nice?

  World Champion.

• 35:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Chuck Nice?

  Still.

• 35:03Gary O'Reilly?

  What drew you?

• 35:04Chuck Nice?

  Still a World Champion.

• 35:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Absolutely.

• 35:06Chuck Nice?

  That's a World Champion, baby. You gotta love it. Come on, that feels good. Like, okay, I have a friend, his name is Judith Friedlander, he is a comedian, and he wears a hat that says "World Champion" on it. And his whole thing, and people used to say when he was on stage, like, "What are you the World Champion of?" And he'd be like, "Everything."

• 35:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh dear.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Well, I'm, I'm one or two things.

• 35:32Chuck Nice?

  One or two things, right on.

• 35:33Gary O'Reilly?

  That's one or two things more than me.

• 35:35Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 35:36Gary O'Reilly?

  You came to the sport of professional boxing relatively late, but what drew you into the ring? What was it for you?

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Um, it wasn't that I was drawn into the ring, it was that I, I kinda needed something to do. I was a professional dancer and that was my goal. When my brothers were doing martial arts, I was dancing.

• 36:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Ooh.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  So, when I got injured and I couldn't dance anymore, my brothers finally was able to get me into the sport of karate. So, I really had no interest in boxing. I just kinda fell into the sport.

• 36:20Chuck Nice?

  So now, it's funny because you say dancing and then boxing, but the two do have some connective tissue.

• 36:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Sure.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  There is definite correlation because it's funny when people see me boxing, they say like I move like a dancer because there's a lot of movement. That ends up being my style. I'm more of a boxer than a puncher because of that.

• 36:44Chuck Nice?

  And you know, that's always the big argument between the two types of pugilist is the brawler and the boxer. And the boxer is the is the person who's light on their feet. They're up on their toes. They're using the ring. They're using the perimeters of the ring. They're creating positioning with their with their body and making their opponent kind of position themselves, put themselves out of position. And then the brawler is just, the brawler is like, alright, I'm gonna fight you. I'm gonna fight you right now.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  And I love fighting brawlers because they come at you.

• 37:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  And that's the whole reason. They will do all the work for you. And you just have to make sure you can hit them before they get to you.

• 37:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so now, now you've touched on strategies. And now you're thinking about the science using an opponent's momentum and their velocity towards you as what they think is an asset. And you're turning it around to make it the disadvantage and an asset for you. So I'm thinking, your brother is a grand chess master. That is all strategy. Your other brother, the kick boxer, which one taught you the most?

• 37:55Speaker 04

  Well, it's funny because Devon, and his last name is actually Cormac.

• 38:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Sorry, we apologize for that.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, he will, he will turn it back on me if I don't correct that. Um, the, he's the one that actually got me into the sports. Uh, he got, he, and he'll tell you also that he taught Maurice how to play chess. So his claim to fame is that he got us both into our perspective sports.

• 38:29Chuck Nice?

  Ah.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  So I'm, I'm gonna say that Devon is actually the one that has been the most influence on me. But, uh, uh, I also learned chess. So that is a major strategy that is a integral part of my boxing too.

• 38:45Gary O'Reilly?

  So how much of that chess strategy did you bring to your boxing in the middle of a fight?

• 38:54Speaker 04

  Well, I think for me, it's a majority of my fights. I'm always thinking a move ahead. Uh, how to get them in a certain position so that I can, uh, you know, punch them or, or if they adjust, I should be two steps, you know, ahead of them. And for me, it's like, I've got to really place you in this position. You might think you got there on your own, but it's really me.

• 39:23Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 39:26Chuck Nice?

  That is a chess match, to say the least.

• 39:28Gary O'Reilly?

  That's also a martial arts thing, the, the, the biggest deal of deception, to allow you to go for something you think is there and then by the way, it's not.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Exactly, exactly.

• 39:39Gary O'Reilly?

  This is why, this is why this lady was world champion.

• 39:41Chuck Nice?

  Oh, definitely.

• 39:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. So in your, in your training, um, I'm, I'm, I'm interested because this, these things do interest me. Was your training old school, hard mouse, skipping rope? Or did you employ new techniques, new technology? Are you one of those people that embraces the new?

• 40:02Speaker 04

  Um, I hate weight training.

• 40:08Speaker 04

  Like eight, so I did it a little bit. But um, the, the thing is that even though I don't look like I'm getting older, my body was telling me that I was. I had the problems from dance. I started getting in boxing, which were torn meniscus. I had torn meniscus and now I have it in both knees. So my training actually had to change because of that. There was no more running. So I had to find a different way to get my stamina going.

• 40:44Chuck Nice?

  So what did you go to?

• 40:46Speaker 04

  Um, well, things like burpees.

• 40:48Chuck Nice?

  Yep. Which by the way, I hate, I hate burpees. You hate weight training. I don't know how you do burpees.

• 40:55Speaker 04

  I hate burpees, but the fact of the matter is it actually were, was the best thing for me.

• 41:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  And, and, and, and I hate saying that, but it is an entire body workout. And it had helped me, um, especially in my last fight. My last fight was, uh, uh, March at age 50.

• 41:16Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  And the one thing that I could say is that I had the conditioning to go more than the 10 rounds.

• 41:25Chuck Nice?

  Oh, now let's, let's talk about conditioning. Yeah. Because that seems to be the kryptonite for most boxers that should win, but don't win. They lose their legs. How do you know that you're properly conditioned for a fight? And what do you have to do to get to that place?

• 41:43Speaker 04

  I think it's also twofold. The fact of the matter is a lot of them are trying to lose weight before the fight instead of already being in or on weight weeks before the fight. So if you are perpetually going up and down in weight, when it's time for you to fight and you have to worry more about losing weight than focusing on the fight, then that's a major problem. So maintaining, I maintain my condition even when I'm not fighting. So most of the times, I'm only three or four pounds over the weight that I fight at. So after that, it's just working on condition the entire time.

• 42:28Gary O'Reilly?

  So that's your background as a dancer talking there. That's that I see the conditioning physically of doing routines, doing everything that you need to do to keep yourself in that shape, then facilitates to doing the same as a boxer. But you can have the best condition in the world, but if you don't really feel like it that day, it ain't happening. So how do you condition your mind to be able to take your body to the places it needs to go?

• 42:54Chuck Nice?

  Wow, that's a great question.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  Um, the funny thing is that my mind is always there. Yes, you can not, you're not always in the fight, and that's the hardest part of it. But, and I'll say that as a dancer, you know, the show must go on. So you still have to work past that. And I always consider my fights not as fights, but performances.

• 43:26Gary O'Reilly?

  That's an interesting take on that.

• 43:27Chuck Nice?

  That's a very interesting take.

• 43:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 43:29Chuck Nice?

  And by the way, let me-

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, so because, because I'm the principal dancer, everyone is watching me.

• 43:35Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 43:36Speaker 04

  So I always have to be good.

• 43:37Chuck Nice?

  All eyes are always on you. And let me take this opportunity to say to all the dancers who are out there listening or not, that dancers are some of the greatest athletes that you will ever encounter, period.

• 43:50Gary O'Reilly?

  I agree.

• 43:51Chuck Nice?

  So, you know-

• 43:52Gary O'Reilly?

  And not because you're here, I would have said that anyway, but you're not, yeah.

• 43:55Chuck Nice?

  Just some props to dancers, the ones, the ones that can't even box, we gotta give it to them too.

• 44:00Gary O'Reilly?

  For sure.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, but they could kick.

• 44:03Chuck Nice?

  Yes, they can.

• 44:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't want to find out if they can, I just know they can. Oh, what, what would you say your biggest challenge has been over the course of your professional career?

• 44:17Speaker 04

  Um, it has been hard to maintain that same level of, um, I'll say, interest in the sport.

• 44:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Uh huh.

• 44:29Speaker 04

  Um, because yes, a lot of times I do not feel like training.

• 44:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Yep.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  And the older that I get, it's harder to maintain that, that same desire.

• 44:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  Especially because I know that I don't have to train as much to get the same out of it.

• 44:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Cool. But you've got to keep doing it.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Training, for my training now, it's like I have to have a purpose. When I was younger, I didn't. It's just like, train as much as you want, the fight comes along. But now it's more focused and is on, when are you getting me a fight? When am I fighting next? So that has been hard to maintain that same sort of, uh, uh, desire to fight.

• 45:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow, that's funny. The trajectory of your training has been the exact same path as the trajectory of my partying.

• 45:21Gary O'Reilly?

  So when, do, have you set a date when you've said, that's me out? Or are you just gonna do your thing and let, let it go where it goes?

• 45:31Speaker 04

  I think, I think this, uh, uh, them, uh, me ending up in China kinda is pushing me on that. Uh, cause I wouldn't have taken this job if I still had so many fights. And the thing about it is that I wanted, for me to stay in the game, I need at least three fights in a year.

• 45:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Uh huh.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  For the last three years, I've just been fighting once a year. And that's not enough to sustain me.

• 46:01Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, I understand that.

• 46:02Speaker 04

  So because of that, it's like, okay, I'm slowly weaning myself out of the sport and being on the other side, which I have been a trainer for the last 15 years, but now it's, uh, kinda just forcing me out of it.

• 46:18Gary O'Reilly?

  So where are you looking for your boxers, down school or in a gym?

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Now they come to me, they come to the gym.

• 46:26Chuck Nice?

  That makes sense. Let me ask you this, you're a champion, a world champion, five times.

• 46:32Chuck Nice?

  To anybody who wants to be a champion, what is it that you have to do to be a champion? What is the championship stuff? What is it?

• 46:43Speaker 04

  I definitely think it's psychology. There's a lot of people want to do, they'll go, oh, but you know, it's a lot of work, but you can put someone in the ring and they're like, oh, after the first, you know, hit or so, I'm coming back. And then, you know, a lot of people think that just winning makes you that winner and it, and it doesn't. It's when you lose, that's where you know how much that person wants it or how much, how strong of a fighter they would be if they can get back up and go back in. So I don't place so much emphasis on winning. I put more on you being able to turn around and come back after you've lost.

• 47:28Chuck Nice?

  Wow, great, great words.

• 47:30Gary O'Reilly?

  I've just remembered something and correct me if this quote is wrong, but you were asked to give advice to any up and coming female boxer and your advice was don't get hit. Is that correct?

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, that's a big part of it.

• 47:47Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm just, now, the second part of this question is, have you managed to take your own advice? Looking at you, I'd say you did pretty well.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  I, I, I definitely have managed to keep that advice. And the thing is, and I'll still, I'll say this, I've never been knocked down in all the years that I've been fighting. I've never been knocked down, never been knocked out. I've had losses and I'm happy with that because it makes me the person that I am. Because I can come back around. I've lost, that's when I came back and won it again at 48.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  The losses dictate how my wins will be.

• 48:30Chuck Nice?

  So you and I have something in common. I've never been knocked down in any of my fights either, because you can't knock down somebody who is running away from you.

• 48:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Knew you were gonna do that. Just knew you were gonna do that.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  I'm gonna strip him.

• 48:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Don't worry, Alicia, you're gonna be able to catch him. Or me, for that matter. Alicia, we have got to the end of this interview, and we are thrilled that we had the chance to spend some time with you. Thank you so much.

• 48:53Chuck Nice?

  Thank you.

• 48:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Alicia Ashley, yes.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  Thanks for inviting me.

• 48:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, thank you.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  I was booked out.

• 48:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, thank you very much. So there you have it. Our boxing special with three very, very interesting women boxers. Different sort of approaches. The philanthropist, the entrepreneur in Carrie Williams, the astrophysicist who clears her mind by boxing. That really is something. And of course, the one, the only undisputed champion of the world, Alicia Ashley. It's been a fabulous, fabulous show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as Chuck and I did, and we look forward to your company very, very soon. So that's it from Playing with Science.

• 49:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Until the next time.