Pics or this episode didn't happen

A picture's worth a thousand words, or in this case, a podcast episode. This week Ben and Amory bring two very different stories from Reddit about pictures on the internet. First – what legal rights do we have over our photos after posting them on Instagram? Then, Ben indoctrinates Amory to The Game. Show notes: Unauthorized use of my photo being displayed in every corporate store in US. Where to start? https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/1kuq5e4/unauthorized_use_of_my_photo_being_displayed_in/ (Reddit) Let's confuse the younger generation https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainTheJoke/comments/1jtq5lb/the_game/?share_id=w5IpP9GiOYuNGZ6Jgl73B&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1 (Reddit) This content was originally created for audio. An auto-generated transcript is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Heads up that some elements (i.e. music, sound effects, tone) are harder to translate to text.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. A recent episode explores how AI is reshaping our schools. Stick around until the end of this podcast to preview the episode.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the touch push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand with unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 1:17Amory Sivertson?

  WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

• 1:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  Hey, y'all. Before the show starts, we just want to remind you that we set up secure lines for you to communicate with us. If there's anything you need to share anonymously or very carefully in this time that we are living.

• 1:39Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, we have a Proton Mail account that is [email protected]. Or you can text or call us on Signal. That number is 646-456-9095.

• 1:57Ben Brock Johnson?

  We should also mention that WBUR is an NPR member station and that the CEO of NPR, Catherine Marr, chairs the board of the Signal Foundation, the nonprofit that supports the messaging app. Anyway, if there's anything you need to be in touch with us about, and you want to be careful with how you share that information and protected, that's how you get in touch, [email protected], or call us, or text, signal 646-456-9095.

• 2:33Ben Brock Johnson?

  Amory Sivertson, my co-host on Endless Thread. How are you?

• 2:38Amory Sivertson?

  So formal. Benjamin Brock Johnson, my co-host on Endless Thread, a podcast from WBUR, Boston's NPR. I'm just fine.

• 2:55Ben Brock Johnson?

  When did you get your first cellphone? When did you get your first cellie?

• 2:59Amory Sivertson?

  I was in eighth grade, and I was, I was told that I would have to pay for it myself. So I paid, it was $25 a month. It was a little Kiosara. It had an antenna, Virgin Mobile, and yeah, eighth grade.

• 3:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  Well, there's a big movement right now that's basically all about wait till eighth.

• 3:19Amory Sivertson?

  That's right.

• 3:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  So I think you got your cellphone probably at the exact right time.

• 3:23Amory Sivertson?

  But isn't that about smartphones? They're saying wait till eighth for smartphones.

• 3:27Ben Brock Johnson?

  Whatever. It's, sure, yes.

• 3:29Amory Sivertson?

  Because this phone could not have been dumber.

• 3:32Ben Brock Johnson?

  It was pretty dumb.

• 3:36Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, I think my first dumb phone, cellphone, I think I got about the time I was like, maybe 18 or 19. So, but do you know how you used to text? And the way that you would text is like, there were letters, three letters to each number, and you'd like, kind of scroll through the letters by punching the numbers. And like, that's how you texted, right?

• 3:57Amory Sivertson?

  Yep.

• 3:57Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, so I have now texted you an image of an old-school cellphone with the numbers and letters, and some numbers attached to that.

• 4:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  This was a photo that was on Reddit recently and it has some numbers on it. What does it say? Describe the photo and what it says.

• 4:20Amory Sivertson?

  Okay, the photo is just of the keypad of the phone. The caption is, "Let's confuse the younger generation." And then there is a series of numbers that you would hit in order to spell something out on this old school phone where you have to hit, you know, a number multiple times to get a particular letter. So, the series of numbers is 8-44-33, space, 4-2-6-33.

• 4:57Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, so before you spell it out.

• 5:00Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Ben Brock Johnson?

  If I say to you, "Finchley Central," or "Cuffs," the Cambridge University Science Fiction Society, any of that ring bells?

• 5:13Amory Sivertson?

  No.

• 5:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  How about, "You've lost the game"?

• 5:19Amory Sivertson?

  Vaguely, but no.

• 5:21Ben Brock Johnson?

  Do you know what ironic processing is?

• 5:25Amory Sivertson?

  No.

• 5:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  So, just to define very briefly, ironic processing is an attempt to-

• 5:32Amory Sivertson?

  It's when Alanis Morissette has to process something. Oh, wait, it's not, because she didn't use ironic correctly once in that whole song.

• 5:40Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, man, hot takes. Okay, so ironic processing is an attempt to suppress or avoid certain thoughts in a way that actually makes those thoughts more common or persistent than they would be at random. Okay?

• 5:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  Did you ever play that game in middle school or high school? Maybe around the time that you got your first cellphone, where if you make the okay sign, like the thumb and the pointer finger are making a circle? You would make that sign surreptitiously and put it somewhere on your body and you would get someone to look at that sign. You could punch them.

• 6:18Speaker 05

  You looked. Ow!

• 6:21Speaker 06

  We're doing this new thing called the circle game. Basically, if you can make the other guy look at your hand when you're doing this, below your waist, you get to hit them in the arm. It's stupid, but hey, you get to hit people.

• 6:32Ben Brock Johnson?

  You ever played that?

• 6:33Amory Sivertson?

  No.

• 6:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  This might have been an eighth grade boys' game, maybe, perhaps. This, to me, is an example of gamified ironic processing, where like acknowledgement or recognition of the thing means you lose the game. Does that make sense? There are like some horror memes, I would say, that fit into this general trope, like Slenderman, Candyman, Beetlejuice. These are characters that you would like call into existence, right? You would conjure them by mentioning their names and acknowledging their existence. And, you know, you'd usually get yourself into lots of trouble just by invoking their name or acknowledging that they were a thing.

• 7:13Speaker 07

  Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice.

• 7:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, so this, all of this, to me, is connected to the idea of intrusive thoughts. You know, we, of course, Endless Thread has a whole episode about intrusive thoughts called Call of the Void, which listeners should definitely check out, by the way. But intrusive thoughts are, in my mind, similar to this ironic processing idea because you're often, again, like imagining a thing you actually don't want to happen. But just the act of imagining it is a little scary, right? Because it can feel like imagining it makes it more real or more possible. Does that make sense?

• 8:00Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, yes. This resonates big time with me.

• 8:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  So, The Game is a great film featuring Michael Douglas. What are you selling? It's a game. A game. It is also an incredibly amorphous, vague meme, where the way you play is to remind someone that the game exists. And the way you lose is to be reminded of its existence.

• 8:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  Am I making sense?

• 8:32Amory Sivertson?

  I think so, yeah.

• 8:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  There are three simple rules to this game, which is basically a mind game. And I'm gonna play you something from Kiwi FM, which is a commercial call-in radio station in New Zealand, or was, to both explain the rules of the game and also, Emery, give you an example of how you can play the game and lose.

• 8:54Amory Sivertson?

  Okay.

• 8:55Speaker 06

  Oh, I just lost the game.

• 8:57Speaker 05

  Oh, what? You lost what game?

• 8:59Speaker 06

  The game. Don't know about the game.

• 9:01Speaker 05

  Oh. Have we been drawn into something here?

• 9:05Speaker 06

  Well, not really. Basically, rule one is, rule one is everyone is playing the game. So you've been playing it, whether you knew it or not. Rule two, if you think about the game, you lose.

• 9:14Speaker 05

  Oh, no!

• 9:15Speaker 06

  And rule three, you have to announce it. So you've all just lost for the first time. Congratulations.

• 9:20Speaker 05

  Can we play again tomorrow?

• 9:22Speaker 06

  Uh, yep, you're always playing. As soon as you forget about it, you're winning again. So it's a pretty fun game.

• 9:28Speaker 05

  Thanks, caller.

• 9:29Speaker 06

  Sweet. See you later.

• 9:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  The first known reference of "the game" is a blog post from 2002. Eventually, someone created a website called losetheGame.net, which endeavored to gather examples of this amorphous sort of meme from around the world. It's a very old-school website. It kind of has some, like, clip-art vibes. There is actually a map of, like, collected instances of the game, of people playing the game or losing the game.

• 9:58Amory Sivertson?

  Okay.

• 9:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  This website, losetheGame.net, seems to have been key in identifying the origins of the game, because after the website was created, the creators started to receive messages from former members of CUSFs, Cambridge University Science Fiction Society.

• 10:18Amory Sivertson?

  Okay.

• 10:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Who said that they had made up this very similar game where the goal was to remind someone of Finchley Central Station, which is a north London tube stop. The next station is Finchley Central. Where this train terminates. Why the science fiction nerds picked this particular station to be the reference for the game in the 1970s that they created? I am not sure, but there was a song in 1967, you know, a little bit before, maybe about a decade before this game was started, referencing that particular station.

• 11:02Ben Brock Johnson?

  That's from a band called the Modern Vaudeville Band.

• 11:08Ben Brock Johnson?

  I mean, you've played games like this before, right? Like, have you ever played like Werewolf or Murder? Like those games where you kind of sit around and talk? And there's a goal to the game. It's not like you don't play it with cards. It doesn't have a board, but like it's gamified interaction between humans, right?

• 11:25Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Ben Brock Johnson?

  So this is kind of in that zone. But eventually it sort of jumps to the internet. It has survived for a very long time on the internet, clearly. If it's, you know, first was referenced by a blog in 2002, there's still a website about it and it gets memed all over the place. It's very similar in that OK Sign Punch game. It sort of like survives just through people playing it and being ridiculous with each other and playing it and it survives online. So I want you to look at the image that I sent you on your phone again.

• 12:02Amory Sivertson?

  Okay.

• 12:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  And can you tell me what you think the numbers spell out?

• 12:09Amory Sivertson?

  All right, well, eight is T.

• 12:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yep.

• 12:12Amory Sivertson?

  If you hit four twice, that's H. If you hit three twice, that's E, so the. Four once would be G. Two once would be A. Six once is M. And two threes again is E. The game.

• 12:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  Well, you've lost, Anne Marie. Thanks for playing.

• 12:37Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, no, no. Is that an appropriate reaction?

• 12:44Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, sure, why not?

• 12:48Ben Brock Johnson?

  Well, that's my, that's my story. The game.

• 12:52Amory Sivertson?

  The game. All right. Well, coming up in just a minute, I have a story for you about a different sort of game, a game called posting personal photos on Instagram.

• 13:06Ben Brock Johnson?

  My boy.

• 13:07Amory Sivertson?

  And how that can turn out.

• 13:10Amory Sivertson?

  It's coming up.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questrom School of Business. How should employers measure real skills in the age of AI?

• 13:36Speaker 05

  Instead of observing the final artifact, instead of observing the final essay or the final program, observe the entire process of creation.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Follow Is Business Broken? wherever you get your podcasts and stick around until the end of this podcast for a preview of a recent episode on rethinking academic and job assessment when AI can do the work.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 14:32Speaker 02

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• 15:03Amory Sivertson?

  Okay, so Ben, your story was more about posting something online with a particular outcome or hope for it.

• 15:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  Sure.

• 15:14Amory Sivertson?

  Mine is about posting something online and then having something happen to it that you just did not see coming.

• 15:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 15:21Amory Sivertson?

  So I was just, you know, tooling around on Reddit like you do. And I saw a post in the Legal Advice subreddit, a favorite of ours.

• 15:33Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:34Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:35Ben Brock Johnson?

  Lots of dumpster fire over there.

• 15:37Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, and also like sometimes the advice or the path forward is not clear, but the thought experiment that it sends you down on in the process, this is one of those where it's like the journey is valuable, even though we don't know what's going to happen in this case. So the title of this post is Unauthorized Use of My Photo Being Displayed in Every Corporate Store in U.S. Where to Start? Location: California. Upon walking into a store, I realized the photo displayed on the front doors are mine. Me and my dog.

• 16:19Amory Sivertson?

  It's a photo I posted on Instagram around three years ago. Deleted Instagram shortly afterwards. However, I do have timestamps, series of photos of it from the day, et cetera. I also noticed they touched me up and tried to make me not as identifiable. The ad is being displayed for one month total. Where do I start the legal process?

• 16:44Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, okay. So I already have so many questions about this. Is the person's face in the photo?

• 16:49Amory Sivertson?

  The person's face is in the photo. They say, they clarify a little more further down in the comments because this, you know, people, people chime in to this big time.

• 17:00Amory Sivertson?

  They say, "It's a selfie I took of my dog and I. I'm kissing him and my side profile is there and my dog has extremely unique markings. They didn't Photoshop out his original harness, making it more clear it's my dog. In the photo, I'm touched up to have a different shirt, stronger jawline."

• 17:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Whoa.

• 17:21Amory Sivertson?

  I, of course, immediately wanted to Google pictures of like, "Person kissing dog, profile, advertisement", to see if I could find the ad that this person is talking about.

• 17:36Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 17:37Amory Sivertson?

  I didn't. The top commenter is a user who goes by Darwin's Photographer. They say, "I'm not a lawyer, but I am a professional photographer who deals with multiple copyright infringement cases every year. I have yet to lose. For your image to be pursued for full damages, you need to register the copyright with the Library of Congress."

• 17:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 18:01Amory Sivertson?

  Then they say further down, "In your shoes, I would reach out to the California State Bar Referral Service and ask for a lawyer who has experience with copyright infringement." So that's the top comment. But the commenters get really into the idea of what Instagram can do with your photos, if anything.

• 18:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 18:23Amory Sivertson?

  So there's some back and forth about that. Someone says, "Unless something changed, I thought once you post any image on Instagram, as per their Terms of Service, they own the image." Someone else says, "No, the Terms of Service gives Instagram a license to use the image, so they don't own it, but they can use it."

• 18:43Amory Sivertson?

  Then someone points out a particular bullet point, 4.3, in their current Terms of Service, saying, "When you share, post, or upload content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos or videos, on or in connection with our service, you hereby grant us a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sub-licenciable, worldwide license to host, use, distribute, modify, run, copy, publicly perform or display, translate and create derivative works of your content. Consistent with your privacy and application settings, this license will end when your content is deleted from our systems."

• 19:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay. That last line seems potentially important, but maybe not if, well, it depends on what happens to the content after people post it and what they do with their accounts and what impact that has on the content. But this is, this is just a great reminder to read the Terms of Service.

• 19:43Amory Sivertson?

  Right, which nobody does.

• 19:45Ben Brock Johnson?

  Which nobody does, because they're all 5,000 words long.

• 19:48Amory Sivertson?

  Right.

• 19:49Ben Brock Johnson?

  And we just can't wait to post ourselves being licked by a dog. And then, and here we are.

• 19:57Amory Sivertson?

  They are kissing the dog. We don't know if licking is happening. I just want to say that. But yes, another important point here, though, is that the OP said that they deleted their Instagram account shortly after posting this photo.

• 20:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  But what does that mean, actually? Do you know what I mean?

• 20:15Amory Sivertson?

  Yes.

• 20:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  Does that mean deactivating? Or does it mean, like, deleting all the photos? How does one even do that? I've never even tried. Like, there's, there's a lot of nuance in, in the idea of deleting an account.

• 20:27Amory Sivertson?

  Very good question. Yes. As a commenter points out, they say, "Infosek Pro here, the license is perpetual until the content is deleted from IG's system. Deleting one's account does not delete stored content in the host's system."

• 20:41Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, boy.

• 20:43Amory Sivertson?

  So, we don't, we don't know for sure, because the Terms of Service, they're not legally binding. It's also like, a little squishy. But it sounds like maybe just deleting your account doesn't necessarily delete everything. Or maybe it does. Someone else points out...

• 21:02Amory Sivertson?

  Found this fun addition in section six of the Terms of Service. Quote, "Content will not be deleted within 90 days of the account deletion," which isn't relevant here because the OP says it was deleted three years ago, "but within 90 days of the account deletion or content deletion process beginning in the following situations," and then they note this particular situation, "where your content has been used by others in accordance with this license."

• 21:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 21:29Amory Sivertson?

  So that's important because in that longer, you know, bullet point 4.3 of the Terms of Service, that word "sub-licensable" was in there. You hereby grant us to a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sub-licensable license.

• 21:44Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, that basically means like whoever, just whoever can have this.

• 21:48Amory Sivertson?

  Well, and not just whoever, but did the company, and I don't know what company this is who made these ads, but did the company sub-license this photo from Instagram?

• 21:58Ben Brock Johnson?

  Right.

• 21:59Amory Sivertson?

  And what does that look like? What does that mean?

• 22:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, God.

• 22:04Amory Sivertson?

  Then, someone else jumps in. Kato the Middle Aged says, "This is more than just a copyright claim. This is a right of publicity claim. Unlike copyright, which is federal law, right of publicity is a law which varies from state to state that basically says you have the right to control the use of your likeness for commercial purposes." They say, of course, there are complications with the Terms of Service, but they share an example of someone in their law school who had their picture taken in front of a landmark near the school, and the picture was used in an advertisement. And this commenter says, "Apparently, this person paid for his whole law school education

• 22:48Amory Sivertson?

  just from the settlement over the fact that this picture of him was used in an ad." This commenter also says, "Luckily, you're in California where right of publicity laws are strong, and there should be a lot of lawyers with experience in those cases." So, this person is basically saying like, "Forget what Instagram says. This is a right of publicity case. It doesn't really matter if Instagram sub-licensed the image. A company can't make ads with your likeness without involving you."

• 23:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Wow.

• 23:23Amory Sivertson?

  How do you feel?

• 23:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know what to say about this. It's really tough because on the one hand, it's sort of like, you feel for the person who like walked into the store and was like, wait a second. Like, this isn't cool, right? I have no sympathy for companies that prey upon people in order to make money. And that's a lot of companies and that makes me sad. But also, like, I don't know, like, on the other hand, like, what can they do other than be like, this is the legal agreement. Do you agree? You know what I mean?

• 24:04Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, but if this company can just sub-license something and then use it for an advertisement, we got a lot of overhaul here, you know?

• 24:14Ben Brock Johnson?

  Well, and I guess also, like, the other thing is, like, we've now acclimated to the expectation that like your average person is going to understand like 5,000 words of legalese.

• 24:26Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Ben Brock Johnson?

  You know what I mean? So like, that's this other thing that's kind of like, really? Like, you know, we're not making it easy for people to make good choices either. Supposedly, we are because we're giving them all the information. But like, if they can't understand it, then what do you expect?

• 24:43Amory Sivertson?

  Right, right. Well, and this is where several people conclude in the comments section, like, well, this is why you should never post anything on Instagram ever. Or if you do, you should just assume that your photos are just gonna get used however, wherever. Too bad. Not that they're actually taking that position or that they think that that's the way that it should be. But, you know, for some people, the takeaway is just kind of like, well, that's what you get unless you want to have a private photo album with friends and family that is not a social media platform.

• 25:21Amory Sivertson?

  So yeah, at this point, we don't know how this will work out for the OP. But I will be following this thread to see if there's an update to this post because I want to know what can actually happen to our photos on Instagram. Can they just be taken by a corporation to make an ad? And I hope the answer is no.

• 25:46Ben Brock Johnson?

  I'm glad we had this talk.

• 25:49Amory Sivertson?

  I'm going to post about it on Instagram right now.

• 25:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, do it with a photo of yourself kissing a rabbit.

• 26:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  Endless Thread is a show from WBUR, Boston's NPR.

• 26:08Amory Sivertson?

  This episode was produced by Franny Monahan, Ben Brock Johnson, and me, Amory Sivertson.

• 26:13Ben Brock Johnson?

  And it was co-hosted by myself, Ben Brock Johnson, and Amory Sivertson.

• 26:17Amory Sivertson?

  Mix and sound design by our production manager, Paul Vikes.

• 26:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Our editor is Meg Kramer. Our managing producer is Sumit Dejoshi. The rest of our team is Dean Russell, Grace Tatter, and Emily Jankowski.

• 26:29Amory Sivertson?

  If you have an untold history, an unsolved mystery, or another wild story from the internet that you want us to tell, hit us up. We promise not to turn your Instagram photo into an advertisement.

• 26:40Ben Brock Johnson?

  We promise, for real. You can email us at [email protected].

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. Follow Is Business Broken? wherever you get your podcasts, and listen on for a preview of a recent episode featuring Janet Kang, Executive Director of the Just Horizons Alliance on who stands to benefit from AI in education.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  I am absolutely in favor of AI in learning in the right context. And just to claim Why are you excited about it? Oh my gosh, individualized support, right? Personalization and to be able to scale quality education in places where it was historically impossible. So for certain kinds of learners with different kinds of learning styles and disabilities. For example, speakers of different languages. There are amazing ways AI can boost learning. It just has to be with the right context. And age appropriateness is something we do a lot of work in. Because it is very different depending on where in that maturity cycle you are in terms of how your brain develops.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Find the full episode by searching for Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts? And learn more about the Marotra Institute for Business Markets and Society at ibms.bu.edu.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 28:51Speaker 06

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