Part Two: Big Bang Theory & Two and a Half Men Creator on Signing a Billion-Year Scientology Contract, Why Success Didn’t Cure His Alcoholism, and Surviving the Public Battle with Charlie Sheen | Chuck Lorre

What happens when the man behind some of television’s biggest sitcoms is secretly battling addiction, low self-esteem, and a lifelong need to prove he’s special? In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Chuck Lorre opens up like never before about the personal demons, painful experiences, and unexpected turning points behind his extraordinary career. From his childhood struggles with alcohol and a mother consumed by rage to spending a decade in Scientology, Lorre reveals the darker side of a life spent creating some of the most beloved shows in television history. He discusses how he found sobriety while filming Dharma & Greg, why his alcoholism escalated despite professional success, and how tying his self-worth to his work and humor affected his relationships. He also opens up about his complicated relationship with Charlie Sheen, why he failed to recognize the full extent of Sheen’s struggles while filming Two and a Half Men, why The Big Bang Theory became his safe space amid the chaos, and how the two eventually reconciled. Chuck Lorre also reveals: - The psychological paradox that shaped his life: living with low self-esteem while simultaneously believing he was special, and how that contradiction influenced his relationships, ambitions, and career - How music saved his life: learning guitar as a child, finding direction through music, and discovering a path away from the future he feared - How the creator of The Big Bang Theory and Two and a Half Men broke into television: his journey from music to writing for animated series and eventually creating some of the most successful primetime sitcoms ever - The unexpected story behind the iconic Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles theme song: how he wrote it and why he believes it remains so popular decades later - The moment he learned to trust his comedy instincts & the breakthrough that helped define his unique approach to sitcom writing - His brilliant philosophy on comedy writing: his unconventional perspective on crafting sitcoms, finding the funny, and creating characters audiences never forget - What it was really like working on Roseanne, navigating a production led by a powerful, complicated female star and the difficult lessons he learned about show business - His lifelong comedy inspirations: the performers, writers, and influences that shaped his comedic sensibilities - Personal cost of turning humor into an identity: how his work became intertwined with his self-worth and affected his closest relationships - Being diagnosed with colitis: his experience navigating a significant health challenge while building an extraordinary career. - Behind the scenes of The Big Bang Theory: Chuck Lorre shares his thoughts on iconic moments featuring Mayim, including the unforgettable tiara scene and Sheldon’s spanking scene - The next chapter of The Big Bang Theory universe: how Stuart Fails to Save the Universe came about and what inspired the project - Lessons that only decades in Hollywood can teach you — the difficult truths he discovered about success, creativity, relationships, and the entertainment industry From writing one of the most recognizable cartoon theme songs of all time to building a television empire with The Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, and Young Sheldon, Chuck Lorre’s journey is a remarkable story of ambition, creativity, addiction, recovery, and self-discovery. How does someone who creates laughter for millions learn to live with his own pain? And what happens when professional success can no longer silence the struggles within? This is Chuck Lorre beyond the sitcoms: unfiltered, introspective, and full of hard-won wisdom about comedy, addiction, Hollywood, and what it means to finally understand yourself. If you love behind-the-scenes Hollywood stories, the real stories behind legendary television shows, and deeply honest conversations with the creative minds who shaped pop culture, this is an interview you won’t want to miss. Chuck Lorre’s memoir, SITCOM: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sitcom-chuck-lorre?variant=44983794106402Chuck Lorre's music: https://www.youtube.com/@ChuckLorreMusic Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with Chuck Lorre, best known for creating The Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, Young Sheldon, and Stuart Fails to Save the Universe. He's going to talk about how he found sobriety and what it was like working with someone else's addiction that led to a very public struggle that he's going to talk all about. In addition, we go behind the scenes of The Big Bang Theory. We talk about my tiara scene. We talk about Sheldon spanking Amy. He also explains why The Big Bang Theory was a safe space for him while all of the turmoil was going on on Two and a Half Men, and what is so incredibly satisfying about the latest spinoff, Stuart Fails to Save the Universe. Make sure you join us over on Substack. I've written a few articles about my time on Big Bang Theory.

• 0:51Mayim Bialik?

  You can find them over there. And please enjoy part two of our conversation with Chuck Lorre. For a small business owner, every day is full of surprises. Some great, some not so great, like when a client cancels their order at the last minute. But here's a surprise you will like. Progressive provides small business owners with 30 customizable coverage options to help keep their business going strong. So go ahead, surprise yourself. Get a quote in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommercial.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates and third-party insurers. Coverage is not available in all states or for all vehicles and coverage selections.

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• 1:56Mayim Bialik?

  Break it down. Before we get into Big Bang Theory, before we get into Two and a Half Men, tell us what your drinking was like, because that's also part of this story. Meaning, you're still drinking. And what you noted is that the more successful you got, and presumably, the easier life should be, the happier you should be.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Great, greatest lesson that I try when I can to impart to people going down the toilet is success doesn't cure alcoholism. It doesn't, it should. We were promised, I was promised, I guess I can speak, for a generation of boys, the American dream was become a mensch, make something of yourself, you know? Have a nice home and you drive a nice car. You're somebody, life is good. You know, everything's, you've arrived. It's a lie. But you don't, I didn't learn, I didn't learn that it was a lie until I had success.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Because it wasn't, it didn't solve the problem of being me. It didn't, it was not a solution. And yeah, and the drinking escalated. It absolutely escalated to the point where, you know, I initially began drinking as a kid so I could be around people, girls particularly. At the end, I was drinking alone. I couldn't tolerate being around anybody. But I was able to work. I was able to work and--

• 3:30Mayim Bialik?

  Your marriage ended.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that ended.

• 3:35Mayim Bialik?

  How old were the kids when your first marriage ended?

• 3:37Speaker 03

  Six and four. It was hard. It was a terrible time.

• 3:41Mayim Bialik?

  Walk us through a bit of Two and a Half Men. Walk us into Big Bang Theory. And then also, sort of, I'm curious where sobriety finds you.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Sobriety found me, believe it or not, while I was still doing Dharma and Greg. I read an article in a trade magazine by a guy I really admired, a writer. Man, I really admire, I don't want to name names. But he called himself a functioning alcoholic. And I never heard those two words put together. I didn't know you could be functioning, because I was functioning. I was working, I was writing.

• 4:22Mayim Bialik?

  You mean, you thought you were either like a derelict bum in the street?

• 4:24Speaker 03

  The guy with the raincoat and the thunderbird in a paper bag under the bridge. And I was not. I paid my taxes, you know?

• 4:34Mayim Bialik?

  You were successful.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  I had a successful, I had a hit TV show, you know? And it didn't solve anything, you know? And I reached out to that man, and he got me started on that journey. He Eskimo'd me, indeed. And changed my life. Changed my life, you know? 1999.

• 4:57Jonathan Cohen?

  Did your writing change when you tried to get sober? Like, was it harder to write?

• 5:03Speaker 03

  I never, I never wrote drunk. I understood early on that the shit you write drunk, you regret. You regret. You come back the next day and look at it and go, oh, dear God, it's incoherent. What was, what idiot, you know? No, you learn early on that you can't do the two. What you can do is write your little ass off--

• 5:26Mayim Bialik?

  I was just gonna say-- It makes you a very, very efficient, functional alcoholic.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Yes. You work, work, work, work, work. You can put in eight, 10, 12 hours, and then it's Miller time. Jack Daniels time. Who had time for beer, Jesus?

• 5:41Mayim Bialik?

  The reason that we figure out, you know, what fills that God-shaped hole, right? Whether it's alcohol, drugs, work, sex, whatever it is. When you take that away, you are still the person that you were before, which is very, very painful. Meaning, you know, what was that transition like?

• 5:59Speaker 03

  Well, you know, one of the things I've come to believe is true, and I certainly believe it's true for me, is the idea that when you stop drinking, your emotional age is about the age when you started. Because drinking solved loneliness, sadness, anger, grief--

• 6:21Mayim Bialik?

  Arrested Development.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  Horniness. It was a solution to everything. Everything uncomfortable was solved. And when you stop, oh, dear God, those things still exist. Loneliness, grief, horniness, boredom. Huge. Boredom's a huge, you know, a mitigating factor for solving, I'm bored, I'll get drunk, right? And so you find yourself in the incredibly unflattering position of being a 47-year-old man whose emotional age is 14, right? Not a pretty picture. And I mean, at a certain point,

• 7:06Speaker 03

  you do slowly catch up to your actual biological age. But it takes a while, you know? And you make a lot of mistakes along the way.

• 7:15Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you said, "I reverted to the emotional age I was when I began, when I stopped anesthetizing myself. I reverted to the emotional age I was when I began, which means I entered my second marriage with the emotional maturity of a 14-year-old boy." It's very powerful, surprisingly moving.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Okay, I was just, I was just, just the facts, ma'am. I was just telling my story.

• 7:39Mayim Bialik?

  You also said something interesting about this marriage that I want you to touch on before we get to, you know, kind of, the rest of sort of your career. I'd made the mistake of marrying outside my key demographic. For a guy who was in constant pathological need of validation, this was a slow drip of poison. And you did, you married someone significantly younger, and--

• 8:01Speaker 03

  How gracefully put.

• 8:04Mayim Bialik?

  I recently, I'm just used to you being my boss. I'm just like, real careful. Real careful. I recently, you wrote, "I recently saw a documentary about Mel Brooks. Watching Anne Bancroft laugh uproariously at his work made me sad." I want you to talk about it, because it, like, it drew the tears in me.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  If you're in this business, and particularly, the only business I know is the comedy business. I mean, and your dream and your goal and your maniacal, you know, obsession is to make people laugh. If your mate doesn't think you're funny or finds you mildly amusing, it's lonely. You know, at a certain point, you don't show, you don't share your scripts. You shoot a show. You wouldn't even dream of saying, hey, look at this new show I made. It's, it's pretty cool. It's, you know, I think, you just don't. You compartmentalize your life, or I did. Here's my life over here. Here's the relationship.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  They don't go together. And that's, that was painful. That was painful, you know? Someone laughing uproariously at your jokes, and when, especially when your work is so critically important to your sense of well-being. And, you know, yeah, I know that's kind of maybe neurotic, but that's it. You know, people going, why are you still working? What would you have me do? I never understood. I get that question all the time. You've succeeded. Why do you keep going? It's fun? You know, it is.

• 9:52Speaker 03

  When people laugh, it's really gratifying, you know? I mean, if you were to read that book right now, and I was in the other room, I'd put my ear to the door to see if you were laughing. You know, because I, it's important to point out that goal number one with that book was make the reader laugh.

• 10:12Mayim Bialik?

  You're now sober. You are still writing. You're working through all of your own stuff while also producing, you know, what becomes some of the most, you know, kind of celebrated and acknowledged comedy, certainly of our generation. Tell us a little bit, you know, you talk about Charlie Sheen, and I actually feel like the place to get it is the book. And you do it so well to kind of explain what those dynamics were. But I wonder, can you walk us through a little bit?

• 10:47Mayim Bialik?

  What was it like, kind of, working on Two and a Half Men? In terms of all the turmoil, while also having Big Bang as this other thing? How was that balance for you? What was it like?

• 11:00Speaker 03

  As things were dissolving, you mean, towards the end?

• 11:02Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  Because in the beginning, it was a dream. You know, we were killing it. The show was insanely, you know, successful. And we were having fun.

• 11:12Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  The audiences, Charlie and John.

• 11:15Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Angus.

• 11:16Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  Holland Taylor, Conchala Farrell. It was cast from heaven.

• 11:20Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  You know? You know, when things started to unravel in the eighth year, pretty much, slowly, I was in denial. I was in a lot of denial. I was trying to pretend everything was okay. So, yeah, I was purposely oblivious.

• 11:42Mayim Bialik?

  What was it like also to work with someone who was in the throes of disease?

• 11:47Speaker 03

  That wasn't an issue because I didn't believe it was happening. I purposely, you know, put blinders on and said, "We're fine, we're fine, we're fine." And clearly, that was not the case. We were not fine. And it took about, I don't know, about eight, nine months for it to become clear that, you know, this, we're in trouble. You know, the star of our show is in trouble. And there was real fear that he could hurt himself. He could hurt someone else. And he, you know, there certainly were enough episodes where violence was involved. It got real, you know?

• 12:30Speaker 03

  And I very, I, what training did I have as a bar mitzvah guitarist to deal with this? The answer is none. I had no understanding of what was happening. And as it became this viral, when Charlie left the show and went on that Tiger Blood tour, I had no skills or understanding how to deal with this. It was, what's hap, it was literally, it was, what is happening? And it was every day for a couple of years.

• 13:00Mayim Bialik?

  It's cunning and baffling, yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  And I do talk about in the book that I was lucky to be able to spend time working and writing and being on the stage at Big Bang, where everyone was really lovely and incredibly professional. The show was great, you know? People would talk to me in whispers, "How you doing? You okay?" You know? And I, I got, you know, it's a little uncomfortable, but I, it meant something. It was meaningful for people to be concerned that I might lose my mind.

• 13:35Mayim Bialik?

  Well, yeah, I mean, I can say also, you know, we felt like you had two kids and one was misbehaving, and we wanted to be the kid that wasn't misbehaving.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  It was unbelievably important to me that that was what was happening. I didn't know that that was the feeling, but I cherished having a safe space because I had to go to work. If I, work was, was, was an escape from the pain of that. And it was, it was really painful. I was, I was tormented by this whole thing for a couple of years.

• 14:09Jonathan Cohen?

  There are amazing quotes on the back of your book, but the first one is from Charlie Sheen.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  Isn't that wonderful?

• 14:15Mayim Bialik?

  Read the quote.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  It's the greatest quote in the world.

• 14:18Jonathan Cohen?

  When it comes to sitcoms, and as a general life rule, always bet on the guy, not hammered on crack.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  That was delightful.

• 14:28Mayim Bialik?

  Pretty accurate.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  I could call, you know, I mean, we reconciled after all those many years. And he did a couple of guest spots on the show Bookie that I did with Sebastian Maniscalco. And, you know, and I asked him if he'd be willing to play himself as a degenerate gambler. And he was like, "Great." You know? He understood exactly what we were doing, you know? And, and we had a good time. And we, we just put it all behind us. It was like, we didn't sit down and try and parse out the nightmare. It was just gone, you know? And it was, and strangely enough,

• 15:11Speaker 03

  I, at some point, I woke up one day and realized the anger and the hurt and the grief and the strain of it all is, it's gone. It's just gone. It happened to another guy.

• 15:22Mayim Bialik?

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• 18:58Mayim Bialik?

  I want to talk a bit about Big Bang Theory. And there's a lot in here that, you know, if people are fans, they're not going to be disappointed, meaning there's great stories. The story of the pilot, the pilot that ended up, you recasted Kaley Cuoco, and that, like, became the explosion and the success that people now think of. The drama with Kanal being let go while, like, the rest of the cast was being touted. I mean, it's, and how you got him back. There's so many good things. You do also talk about some things around negotiation that was a very public thing, which I won't talk about here, but it's in the book. But I wonder-

• 19:36Speaker 03

  I got it right, didn't I?

• 19:38Mayim Bialik?

  I learned things about a negotiation that I had nothing to do with from your book.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Okay, good.

• 19:44Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I learned-

• 19:44Speaker 03

  All right, good.

• 19:45Mayim Bialik?

  I learned all sorts of, yes, it's educational.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  An educational tone.

• 19:49Mayim Bialik?

  Surprisingly moving and educational. All right, canned laughter. You talk about this a few times in the book, and this is one of the things that all those people who are too good for sitcoms love to say to me. I literally have people come up to me all the time, saying, "I would like your show, but I hate all that canned laughter." And I find myself in malls, bathrooms, preschools, explaining to people that what makes Chuck Lorre magic is his perspective about what happens when you put comedy in front of real people who are sitting in an audience.

• 20:27Mayim Bialik?

  Can you set the record straight about canned laughter and what your technique is for writing? Meaning, if it does not play in front of the audience?

• 20:38Speaker 03

  You fix it, or you cut it. But you surely, you know, you don't put it on TV where it will suck forever, right? You don't. It didn't seem to be like some secret formula here. It's a comedy. I grew up thinking comedy makes you laugh. That's how I was raised. Comedy makes you laugh out loud.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  If you're not laughing, what you're watching might be wonderful, but it ain't comedy, right? It might be something else, and that's fine. You can do something else. But let's be clear. If the category is comedy, laughter must ensue, right? And if you, and, and I was obviously driven by fear of cancellation, that if a show is not truly funny, every week, you can't have a bad episode. Bad episode is like, you gotta really love a show to come back the following week if the, if you watched an episode that was weak. You really have to love it. I, I would do that on occasion. There were episodes of, of series I loved, like Cheers,

• 21:46Speaker 03

  where we're in, I didn't really need to go home with Cliff this week. I, I prefer to stay with Sam and Woody and Norm. But okay, I'm coming back because I have this built in relationship and love for these characters.

• 21:58Mayim Bialik?

  And you don't have to go home with Cliff every episode.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Please don't, no more with, with Cliff and his mother. Let's just stay in the bar. But, but I, if you dearly love a show, you'll forgive it an episode or two that doesn't work. But at a certain point, you stop and you never come back. You never come back. And that, as a motivator, made me kinda maniacal.

• 22:23Mayim Bialik?

  You said, "I'm proud to say that for almost 40 years, I've kept that promise of not sinking to that level of complacency. Even scenes filmed without the benefit of a live studio audience, because sometimes we had to have episodes that had special effects or we had to do it to save time, were always played back for a live studio audience in order to record their real live laughter." And that's what we would say also, because, you know, you were juggling not only Two and a Half Men, not only the drama with Charlie Sheen, you were juggling us as well. And we knew that if something wasn't working all week and you hadn't yet seen it, we knew when you saw it, you would fix it. And like, that's what, that's what it felt to be safe, you know? I was raised by Don Rio and then I was raised by you. Like, that's what it means to feel safe, right?

• 23:06Mayim Bialik?

  To know it's gonna get fixed as soon as Chuck can touch it. And we missed you, you know, when you couldn't touch it. So, yeah, that's, I'm glad you, I'm glad you cleared that up for us.

• 23:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Were there ever situations that you feel like you couldn't fix? Because sometimes in the creative process, you're like, "How do you fix this thing? It's like broken in three different ways."

• 23:26Speaker 03

  No, no, you don't, you don't throw your hands up and go, "Put this shitty thing on TV." You don't, you simply don't. If you have to come back a week later and reshoot a scene, which happened rarely, but if you had to, you did it. You just...

• 23:39Mayim Bialik?

  Sometimes we just stayed late.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, sometimes you just stay late. And, and, and it's frightening and aggravating when stuff you believed in, you really thought, ah, this is gold. And then, you know, you know, as I put it...

• 23:53Mayim Bialik?

  Imagine how we feel, we're the ones saying it.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  The joke happens and you can hear the 134 freeway in the distance. It's, the silence is overpowering. And you can feel, you know, that feeling of defeat and just, oh my God. And then there's nine people yelling at you, pitches. "How about this? How about this? How about this? How about that?" And you gotta sort it out, uh, because everybody wants to help. Everybody's trying to make the show better, but they're all trying to help at once. And, and somehow out of that maelstrom, that, that cauldron of, of truly, what a staff we had, what a staff. With Steve Malero and Steve Holland, Eric Kaplan.

• 24:35Mayim Bialik?

  Maria Ferrari.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Maria Ferrari, Tara. We had unbelievably great writers and everybody's trying to help. And if you're the executive producer, you have to sort through all that. And sometimes it's going, "Wait, what? What, say it, say that again? Okay, that's, let's go, let's take that and, and we'll take that and add this and spin it around." And so, you know, you'd say, "You gotta insist. We don't make the basket without you saying that." And, and, and it is very collaborative.

• 25:08Jonathan Cohen?

  It's very collaborative, but also you have a, a sixth sense of what's gonna work and what will resonate. It's an end of one to have a career with this many hits. Do you feel like you just know what's gonna work? And like, where does that come from?

• 25:24Speaker 03

  I think it's a, it's not a sixth sense about other people. I think it's funny. And the whole secret sauce is, I hope you agree, right? Because, I mean, ultimately, it's hubris to think you know, in our case, what millions of people might think is funny. The show would routinely get 20, 20 million people watch it. To think that I knew what 20 million people think is funny is pride goeth before the fall season, you know? But I know what I think is funny, because laughter is involuntary. You don't laugh on, you can't make a laugh.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Laugh happens, you know? It, it's done to you, you know? And it's a wonderful thing because it's involuntary, you know? Fake laughing doesn't make you feel good. Real laughing does. Strange.

• 26:25Jonathan Cohen?

  But you have, you have to stay out of your head in that regard. You have to be like, super present.

• 26:29Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I have a quote. I have a quote. This is a Chuck Lorre quote.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 26:33Mayim Bialik?

  "Somewhere along this path, I had an epiphany. I realized I could trust my instincts about what worked and what didn't. This is the point. I no longer needed to seek consensus. At the same time, I didn't have to defend my mistakes. If something I believed in failed, I no longer felt it was a reflection on my self-worth. It was just something that had to be fixed or cut." That really struck me.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  I remember when it happened. I actually remember the moment. It was on Two and a Half Men. It was before there was a Big Bang Theory. There was a moment, I was, I'd been doing this for 15 years at that point. And I was in the writer's room. We were rewriting a script, polishing it, punching it, cutting, whatever. And I had an idea. I don't remember what the idea was. But I pitched the idea out to the room and immediately everybody's saying no, because that's what comedy writers do. You know, no, here, let me tell you how it's supposed to be. And I went, "No, I wanna do this. I, I think this could work." And I remember, it was a striking moment

• 27:41Speaker 03

  because it never experienced, I'd never experienced certainty before. I'd experienced fear, trepidation, you know, insecurity. But confidence was, that, that took, I don't know. Arrogance is not confidence, but quiet confidence was something new, you know?

• 28:03Mayim Bialik?

  I, I wanna get us to the present. You know, there's, there's so much in between, you know, Big Bang and the end of Big Bang and Young Sheldon. You know, we just kind of had this like, over, we, the collective we. You know, you had this rolling set of shows. You had Kaminsky in the middle of like, all of this transition. And now we find ourselves, you know, in this really incredible time. We find ourselves with Stuart, fails to say the universe. And, you know, I, my experience of watching this show come about was that there are, there are not four more deserving actors

• 28:47Mayim Bialik?

  to have this opportunity than those actors. And, you know, as an actor, since I'm 11 years old, I am trained to be competitive. I'm trained to want roles that I couldn't even play. Like, I could be the lead in Othello. Like, why would someone else get it, right?

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Why did I get Princess Bride?

• 29:02Mayim Bialik?

  Exactly, right? That's exactly right. So, you know, that's, that's not uncommon. You know, it's not uncommon even among friends who are actors, right? It's not uncommon to have this sort of gnawing, right? This thousand forms of fear that kind of gnaw at you, right? More, more, must win, must, all the time. And this is the first time in my life when I got to stop, like, when I got to step into that set, that I felt only pure joy for these actors. Not just because it's not, like, my life is over and I'm in menopause, so we're not needed anymore. But it was just this notion of like, this is such a deserving group of people in such a phenomenal vehicle. Explain how this came about to, all these years later, bring back these characters.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  But first, will you come back and do some more?

• 29:50Mayim Bialik?

  Of course.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  Okay, you heard her, folks. Let's give her a big hand. How did this come about? In the last year of The Big Bang Theory, we knew we were, we were coming, we were landing the plane.

• 30:03Mayim Bialik?

  Well, some of us knew, others were waiting.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  No, we, we remember we had the meeting.

• 30:08Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, no, I'm, after the meeting, we knew, yeah.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 30:12Mayim Bialik?

  It was known.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Well, after we...

• 30:15Mayim Bialik?

  Remember, we had the meeting. Yes, Dad, I remember.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Okay, we're, you know, we were gonna, we were gonna bring, bring, 12 years, pretty good, pretty good. It was, it was...

• 30:25Mayim Bialik?

  I was only there nine. I thought you could give me a couple more, but that's okay.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  All right, no one's happy. All right. I, I, I had this crazy idea that, that Kevin Sussman, who I was always a huge fan of, was, you know, had things worked out differently, he would have been Wolowitz.

• 30:42Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, literally.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Yes, he would have been the character Wolowitz. But ABC, God bless Disney, fucked him. They just fucked him. It was just ruthless. We would rather, it's not enough, we succeed, you must fail, kind of mentality. But I had this idea that he had a portal in his comic book store in the back room to other dimensions. And he was tasked with some kind of multiverse hero's journey. And I, I had lunch one day with the president of Warner Brothers Television, Peter Roth. And I said, "I have an idea for a spinoff of The Big Bang Theory." And he was like, "Tell me, tell me."

• 31:27Mayim Bialik?

  Tell me, Chuck.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Tell me, Chuck. And I told him, and...

• 31:34Speaker 03

  I think he yawned.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  He did not want to hear, in all fairness. The idea of a spinoff meant the principal characters, the lead characters,

• 31:46Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  not supporting actors. I thought supporting actors was what made it cool, you know? And so it went nowhere. And I put it away. I just put it away for, what, nine, 10 years? And then I, I had lunch with David Zasloff, who is now the new guy. And I said, I have an idea for a spinoff from The Big Bang Theory. And he said, sold. He didn't even ask what it was. God bless him. He went, he had a press announcement that there was a spinoff coming from The Big Bang Theory. And I wasn't sure what it was, right?

• 32:30Mayim Bialik?

  Because I texted Kevin right away. And I was like, what's going on? Is this you? Nobody knew.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  I called Kevin. I said, are you even interested? I don't know. Maybe you've got other plans. Maybe you're going to be a movie star. I don't know. And, you know, and it took a couple of years for it to coalesce. And yeah, that, that, that, that was the advent of Stuart fails to save the universe was this ridiculous journey.

• 32:57Mayim Bialik?

  Well, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. It also combines a lot of those kind of early comic book influences that you talk about. It's a world where anything's possible.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  And Monty Python.

• 33:07Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  There's a lot of Mel Brooks.

• 33:08Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  There's a lot of early Woody Allen.

• 33:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  You know, you know, what's your plan? I'm, I'm new to the action genre, so I don't really have one. That's Woody Allen.

• 33:19Mayim Bialik?

  He's Nevechy.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  He's Nevechy.

• 33:20Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  You know, he's, he's out of his element, but he's the, the, the least likely hero.

• 33:25Mayim Bialik?

  It's brilliant. He's the Uber mensch.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  The Uber mensch.

• 33:28Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  And, and it was also, I'd always had this little fantasy dream that someday I'd get to make something that wasn't two people on a couch talking. You know, that, that had a little bit more cinematic elements, of which I knew nothing.

• 33:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  I, you know, I mean, even as we were shooting this thing.

• 33:48Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  I'd go, oh, this isn't going to work.

• 33:50Mayim Bialik?

  It's beautiful, though. It's very beautiful.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  I had panic attacks constantly. And, and Zach Penn, who works in this world, said, it'll be okay. It'll be, no, it clearly doesn't work. They're not done. And the special effects things are slow.

• 34:05Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I didn't have to do too many effects. Melissa had to wear the suit and do all the things. I got off really easy. I was like, what am I going to be? Like, I said to Melissa, because Melissa and I were talking, you know, before, like, what are we going to be? I said, maybe I'll be a stripper. Maybe I'll be like a, you know, some exotic something. No, I was a psychiatrist, but it was fantastic.

• 34:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:23Mayim Bialik?

  It was great. And then the Wife of the Flash. It was amazing.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  Some of my favorite scenes, when we asked for, you know, what episode do you want to put forward for these, the, the trophies you're not going to win? We all, all three of us, Zach and Bill and I all went, oh, oh, The Insane Asylum.

• 34:43Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, really?

• 34:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 34:44Mayim Bialik?

  Whoa.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  It just.

• 34:46Mayim Bialik?

  I also chose that for the award I'm not going to win.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  Good. For the award I'm not going to win, right?

• 34:51Mayim Bialik?

  I was nominated four times on Big Bang. Remember, I lost to Allison Janney one year. I had to both congratulate you and get consolation from you at the same Emmys party.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  Oh, shit.

• 35:03Mayim Bialik?

  It was a beautiful, bittersweet year, though.

• 35:06Speaker 05

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• 36:09Speaker 07

  I'm Rachel, and I have a new show, Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch. It's an otherworldly comedy podcast where I, along with my co-host Irene Bremis, talk to my funny friends about their own experiences with the eerie and the unknown. Psychics, spirits, astral projection? Check, check, and check. You may think we live in a world where there's a logical explanation for anything out of the ordinary, but after you spend some time with me and my pals, you might have your doubts and find that you too are woo woo. So when the lobsters come for us, when our lobster overlords come, you heard it here first. Join me for a podcast that turns the mysterious tales of my funny friends into a spirited conversation.

• 36:50Speaker 07

  Search for Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch wherever you're listening now.

• 36:59Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, yeah. Happy for you.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  We never, I never won one. Never, never, never, never.

• 37:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Never, never, never.

• 37:05Mayim Bialik?

  I want to ask about two episodes in particular, as we're winding down our time with you. I want to ask about two moments that I'm often asked about, and I feel like you should be the one to answer them, not me. I'm asked about two episodes, the one with the tiara, asked about the tiara scene, and then I'm asked about the spanking scene. And I have sort of my take on, like, as an actor, what those scenes were like. What do you remember of the tiara episode?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Tiara was a tour de force for you.

• 37:35Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  You know?

• 37:38Mayim Bialik?

  It's the only way I ever did it, is how I remember it.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Yes, and it was breathtaking. It really was. It really was. It was hilarious and touching at the same time.

• 37:47Mayim Bialik?

  I thought it was funny.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  It was funny.

• 37:49Mayim Bialik?

  And I don't know if it funny to anybody else.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  But, but, you know, you, you talk about, you know, you know, moving.

• 37:56Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  The joy of Amy was moving. This unadulterated, over-the-top celebration of a tiara was, it was wonderful. It was a great thing to be able to witness. You know, there's, there's moments when you do this job where you're standing on stage and going, wow, that's really, that's really cool.

• 38:19Mayim Bialik?

  Surprisingly moving.

• 38:20Speaker 03

  Surprisingly moving.

• 38:22Mayim Bialik?

  Tell us about the spanking scene. Here's what I remember of the spanking scene.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  That might be on me.

• 38:26Mayim Bialik?

  So just to give people a reference, the spanking scene was not in the original script.

• 38:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Can we get the rights to include the clip?

• 38:36Mayim Bialik?

  Uh, well.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  You can ask.

• 38:37Mayim Bialik?

  We can ask for permission, or we can ask for forgiveness and not permission. The spanking scene was an episode where Amy gets sick and Sheldon has to take care of her. And what ends up happening is this very, you know, kind of bizarre ability for her to squeeze out some intimacy from a man who, you know, admittedly.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Not what he does.

• 39:01Mayim Bialik?

  Was not what he does.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:02Mayim Bialik?

  But we did what I was told was something that was just going to be audio for the end credits. I was told, and I don't, this is not at all, like, I, it was clear to me what was happening, but originally we were told, this is just going to be audio, and we just want the sound, right, of her being punished, right?

• 39:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, she lies to him.

• 39:23Mayim Bialik?

  That's right.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  But she, she pretends to be sick in order to sustain this intimate relationship with him. And when she's, once she's well, she continues to pretend she's sick, and he discovers that, right?

• 39:34Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Right?

• 39:35Mayim Bialik?

  That's right.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  And then he punishes you.

• 39:37Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  By spanking you.

• 39:38Mayim Bialik?

  But also, cameras did roll.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Cameras did roll, and I don't think I've ever laughed harder in my life.

• 39:44Mayim Bialik?

  It is some people's favorite scene of Amy and Sheldon.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  And, and let's be clear, Amy dug it. Amy dug, you know, and Amy dug it, and, and he was so bewildered. It was, it was, it was just one of those great memories.

• 40:05Mayim Bialik?

  Before we say goodbye, I, I want to say, you know, the book Sitcom, a memoir by Chuck Lorre, is really kind of must-have reading.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Show it to the cameras.

• 40:13Mayim Bialik?

  I will show it to the cameras. We'll also show in the intro, but yes. And it also includes at the back, which is, you know, Jonathan and I are both writers, and so a really, really special part of this book is you show actual scripts with your notes about what was cut, what was good, what needed to change. And it's really, really interesting, kind of for each of these significant shows, to be able to, to follow along. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here, and also thank you for including me, including us, in this incredible book tour. And it's really, it's been such a pleasure to be a part of this aspect of your journey. So just thank you so much.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  Thank you. This was fun.

• 40:57Mayim Bialik?

  If people want to hear about your music, where should they follow you?

• 41:01Speaker 03

  I guess it's on Spotify.

• 41:03Mayim Bialik?

  And Chuck Lorre Music.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Chuck Lorre Music.

• 41:05Mayim Bialik?

  All one word.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:07Mayim Bialik?

  On Instagram.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  On Instagram?

• 41:08Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, you don't do social media, which I'm respecting.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  I'm told.

• 41:11Mayim Bialik?

  But we're telling the people.

• 41:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I hired a guy and said, I want people to hear these songs.

• 41:16Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 03

  And he goes, oh, you know, no, no, no charge, don't, just, I want people to hear them.

• 41:21Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  I work really hard on these things.

• 41:22Mayim Bialik?

  So go to Chuck Lorre Music on Instagram.

• 41:24Speaker 03

  I never gave up being a songwriter, and so, yeah, yeah, go listen, and I hope, I, I hope it makes you happy.

• 41:37Mayim Bialik?

  One of the most powerful things that he says in this book, and also, if you go to page 131 of the book, you can see my backside, as well as that of the entire cast, as we are getting our handprints at the Chinese theater.

• 41:51Jonathan Cohen?

  You're nailing down.

• 41:52Mayim Bialik?

  I'm nailing down. It's not purposely my backside, but I would have chosen a different outfit had I known that this photo would be in Chuck's book. The dress was a bright marigold. Anyway.

• 42:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Black and white in the book.

• 42:06Mayim Bialik?

  It is black and white in the book. I will say that Chuck chooses to discuss some things about our time on Big Bang Theory that were mostly known in the news cycle and, you know, kind of the gossip news cycle. But he does, he does address it here. And, um, and the one thing that really moved me, and actually, when I read this, I texted Chuck about it. He said, "The lesson learned over and over again is the true character of a person is revealed by how they handle success. Failure brings only grief and maybe resentment. Success shows you who's who." And it really moved me because, you know, so much of our lives, in this industry especially,

• 42:49Mayim Bialik?

  is about who has what, right? Who wins the most? Who makes the most, right? And just the notion that, you know, part of his journey also was examining sort of the character of how people behave, not just on our show, I'm saying in all the shows. And it's just a really, it's a really powerful book. It's a very powerful book. And we really gave such, such a surface level, you know, dive into the history of television and Chuck.

• 43:18Jonathan Cohen?

  People may not understand the number of...

• 43:21Mayim Bialik?

  I don't mean to bash our own show. We did a great job in that interview. I'm just saying there's so much information.

• 43:26Jonathan Cohen?

  And the number of massive TV stars that he has shaped, interacted with.

• 43:32Mayim Bialik?

  Fought with?

• 43:33Jonathan Cohen?

  Fought with. You know, the Charlie Sheen of it all, that was major headlines. I don't think there had been a, a star on the biggest TV show in the world at the time. It had been the number one rated show in America and therefore the biggest show in the world for global audiences. That, no, no star at that level had been removed from a show and the show continued.

• 43:59Mayim Bialik?

  Right, and he talks about that. So like, that's the whole other thing, is that Ashton Kutcher came on after Charlie Sheen left and just fun tidbit. Don Rio, who created Blossom, was showrunning at that time on Two and a Half Men. So actually, my reuniting with Don Rio and us trying to sort of work on a Blossom reboot came because he was showrunning Two and a Half Men, next to Chuck Lorre.

• 44:24Jonathan Cohen?

  And there was an adage in Hollywood, right? That the actor can never get bigger than the show.

• 44:30Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 44:30Jonathan Cohen?

  And there was this conflict. There was a philosophical, basically, war that played out. What, could an actor basically do whatever they wanted and still stay employed? And then it turned out that there was a line too far.

• 44:44Mayim Bialik?

  You know, Don Rio tells a story, which Don Rio is, wants us to have him on so that he can do this kind of episode and tell his experience working on Two and a Half Men. Yeah, Don Rio tells this story. I mean, I should have him tell it here, but he tells this story that Charlie Sheen was like, "Hey, Don, let's go get in a plane." And Don's like, "Okay." He's like, "Let's go to Vegas." And Don's like, "Okay." And he was like, "Let's get some..." And Don was like, "And I'm out. We are not getting hookers and flying around in a jet." So I think what the book talks about, and also coming from the, the deep history that Chuck talks about with his own alcoholism, drug use, and what that journey was like, to be confronted with someone who was so not well

• 45:26Mayim Bialik?

  and really was a danger to himself and other people, especially as it had violence attached to it in, in many instances. Everybody was a little bit like, "What are we supposed to do?" And I think that's one of the things you hear about in the industry. Like, what is the behavior that people, you know, allow?

• 45:45Jonathan Cohen?

  Hollywood is known for tolerating a certain level of behavior, and Charlie pushed that.

• 45:51Mayim Bialik?

  So did Roseanne. I mean, he talks about it in the book. So did Roseanne. He was there at the time that Tom Arnold was brought on, and he was like, "I do not know how to deal with this." It was a level of real uncomfortableness and, and also a really shifting industry. And I think that's what's so interesting about, you know, Chuck's journey is, he has lived through, right? A time when it was okay for people to behave like that, into a time when it's actually not okay for people to behave like that, him included. And he talks about the behavior of his that was allowed. His first wife, his children's mother, who lied for him, paid for him, stepped in. He said she was the perfect untreated Al-Anon. She just kept fixing and fixing and fixing

• 46:35Mayim Bialik?

  and explaining it away. And finally, it didn't matter, you know? Meaning on an emotional level. And I, I should say also, I don't know if, um, if Nikki listens to, uh, to my podcast, but Chuck's daughter is a celebrated director. She actually, she did an episode of Call Me Cat. She does a ton of directing. I worked with her on Big Bang Theory. She's a phenomenal, intelligent, really, really incredible person. Chuck would always say it's to her mother's credit. But, um, yeah, I've gotten to interact with his daughter, who, as he talks about in the book, he will be making amends to his children for the rest of their lives, you know?

• 47:17Jonathan Cohen?

  He did very lightly touch on his behavior. I don't know him at all. There, and you haven't told me stories of him.

• 47:26Mayim Bialik?

  I only knew him, you know, in this last section of the last 15 years.

• 47:30Jonathan Cohen?

  In order to climb and be successful in this world, you have to be a tyrant to run shows like that. In terms of like, you have to, you're, you're gonna be conflict. People are gonna be crazy.

• 47:39Mayim Bialik?

  I think we should be careful with "you have to be a tyrant", but it was not unexpected.

• 47:44Jonathan Cohen?

  You can't do it with a smile on your face all the time.

• 47:47Mayim Bialik?

  I, I will say, I've worked with a lot of showrunners. I have never had a problem with Chuck, ever. But I also seek to make Chuck happy. And that's sort of my job as an actor, is to make all the, you know, producer, the people who say yes, the people who have the power to, you know, of sign your check or not. Yeah, my job's to make them happy. But not a lot of actors, I mean, sorry, I shouldn't say not a lot. Not all actors feel that way. And I think especially, and you know, this is like a topic for another time. You know, I really feel for the women that he was working with in the 80s and the 90s who had no footing to be in the position that they were in because they were the first to do it. And people did not know how to deal with women.

• 48:30Mayim Bialik?

  And sometimes, women, we don't even know how to deal with these situations that are so structured around the patriarchy. They're so structured around women doing and saying and being what they want. I mean, Chuck admits he's got mom issues, right? He admits that he's playing that out in a lot of these. I mean, Dharma, that was his fantasy of a woman, right? It was his fantasy that she was open-hearted. Like, there are open-hearted's among us, right? But I think of the women who were trying to make their names as stars of shows in the 80s and 90s. Like, that's, it was not easy.

• 49:04Jonathan Cohen?

  How did you feel about him saying that the Big Bang Theory was his safe place when there was so much craziness going on on Two and a Half Men?

• 49:11Mayim Bialik?

  I remember it. I remember those years. It was very, very difficult for us to see him like that. It was, you know, not only the work part... And I know a lot of people are like, "Mm, serves you right, like, you're a rich producer." But there's a human. And I think that's what this book also is trying, like, that's what I kept trying to like, show. Like, he's a guy from Long Island. He's a musician who just wanted to play his guitar onstage and meet pretty girls, right? Like, there's a humanity to when the person that you are working with is, first of all, very sick and, and not behaving kindly, and then publicly assaults you. That's very, very powerful. And this was the beginning of social media.

• 49:56Mayim Bialik?

  Like, I got my Instagram account when I was on the Big Bang Theory. And we were like, "This is fun. Let's see who can get 100 that." Like, "Let's see who can get 10 likes." I mean, social media took this Charlie Sheen thing and ran with it in a way that like, the deepest insults, right? That he hurled were magnified. And I think today, if that happened, people would be like, "Yep, another day. Another actor, like, cursing at a producer, right?" Back then, it was like, what? And also, Charlie Sheen, this is a legacy. Legacy actor, meaning he, his father's Martin Sheen, his brother's Emilio Estevez. Like, come on. It's like Hollywood royalty, right? It was huge.

• 50:36Jonathan Cohen?

  I just wanna do another 10 minutes on family trees.

• 50:39Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I got a whole thing. People used to know we're siblings. Shirley MacLaine and Warren Beatty. I got a whole thing. Don't get me started.

• 50:47Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, you have written a handful of amazing articles about the Big Bang Theory.

• 50:53Mayim Bialik?

  I have. So if you've listened this far and you want more Big Bang Theory content, we do have two pieces in particular that I wrote specifically about the Big Bang Theory, including personal photos. One is about, people always say like, "Do you miss being on Big Bang Theory?" Yes, I do. I do miss it.

• 51:06Jonathan Cohen?

  And there's things that people don't know about.

• 51:08Mayim Bialik?

  I wrote a piece about the things that I miss, some of which people may not know about. And then I also wrote another piece, which we're actually gonna release in a couple days. So make sure you're subscribed so you hear about it, where I go, character by character, of everybody on the Big Bang Theory and what the most special and unique moments were with each of those actors, including Johnny Galecki and I have quite a history before Big Bang Theory.

• 51:30Jonathan Cohen?

  And where can people find these articles?

• 51:32Mayim Bialik?

  People can find these articles on Substack. You've gotta go to Substack. They're not anywhere else. I don't write anywhere else except Substack. biolikbreakdown.substack.com. Check it out there. There's also a ton of other content. Join us for our lives. We'll be talking about your reactions to this episode. So please join that community over there. There's so much Big Bang Theory stuff. And we're so, so glad that you're here with us. So from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.