Caller: “I Slept With My Best Friend’s Wife”

❤️ Preorder Building the Marriage You Want today and get $100+ in bonus items. On today’s episode, we hear about: A man wondering if he should write an apology letter after his affair A man regretting not speaking up for a coworker A mom struggling to enjoy her kids Next Steps: 💬 Get the free Conflict Game Plan by Dr. John Delony. 📋 Get on the same page before the week begins. Download Dr. John Delony’s free weekly marriage check-in. 🔥 Microhabits for a better marriage. Download the Together app. ❤️Join Dr. John Delony at Money & Marriage Getaway. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Episode Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:28 Should I Apologize for an Old Affair? 22:20 I Regret Not Speaking Up for a Coworker 42:47 I Struggle to Enjoy My Kids Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get started today with Churchill Mortgage. Equal Housing Lender • NMLS ID 1591 • NMLSConsumerAccess.org Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Working knives for working people—go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Should I write a letter to my former best friend and explain the situation around the affair I had with his wife? The part that kills me the most is I didn't have the integrity to stop it. I didn't have the integrity to come clean about it. I had to get caught.

• 0:23Dr. John Delony?

  What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, sitting down with you. Whether you're driving, whether you are going for a run with your headphones on, going for a walk, cleaning up your house, whatever it is you're doing, however it is, you're pulling up a seat with us, I'm so grateful that you are here. As you know, on this show, I take real calls from real people from all over the world who are struggling with their mental and emotional health, with their marriages, with doing the next right thing in their life. And man, I'm so grateful that you're with us. I'm so grateful to the people who call. This is a wild time to be alive.

• 1:06Dr. John Delony?

  And I believe with all of my guts, all my guts, that the solution is pulling up a seat and sitting with real people, listening to real voices, and figuring out what's, what are you gonna do next? Figuring that out together. So you want to be on the show? Click the link in the show notes. I would love to have you. Let's go out to Orlando, Florida, and talk to our first caller, Jack. Hey, Jack, what's up, man?

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Hey, doctor, how are you?

• 1:31Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, brother. How are you, man?

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Good, good.

• 1:34Dr. John Delony?

  What you got going on?

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Well, my question is, should I write a letter to my former best friend and explain the situation around the affair I had with his wife? Not, not excuse it, not make excuses for my actions, but the fact is, I miss his, I want him to know I miss his friendship, and I don't expect him to be my friend again. I just, well, I'll leave the question at that and I'll let you ask.

• 2:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah. And hey, listen, um, I mean, spoiler alert, like you know you messed up. I want to honor the fact that you called in. That's a hard thing to do.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:23Dr. John Delony?

  So I appreciate, I appreciate you. And I appreciate you, like, trying to think through ways, how do I make this huge mess? How do I make it right? How do I, like, I appreciate you trying to figure it out. So, um, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be here beating you up, okay?

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:38Dr. John Delony?

  Um, so tell me what happened, man?

• 2:41Speaker 00

  Well, the, the short story is that I was going through some mental health issues, anxiety, depression, burned out at work. And he, he and I were the closest of friends, and his, and his wife was, you know, we were friends too. I mean, we, we just clicked like two peas in a pod. We were just friends for years. But it was, their, their marriage had gone through a number of, of rocky areas. Mine was strong.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  My wife didn't do anything wrong. And I would say it was the lack of boundaries accompanied with my mental state that I allowed the situation to spiral out of control until the point where, um, things progressed to where they did. And, um, the part that kills me the most is I didn't have the integrity to stop it. I didn't have the integrity to come clean about it. I had to get caught. And now the situation is both families are still intact years later.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  But, you know, I, I'll deal with, I'll deal with the, the, the consequences and the mental anguish, if you will, that I go through about my own failings. And I'm just grateful that God has helped me to work through that for myself.

• 4:19Dr. John Delony?

  How, how long ago did this happen?

• 4:21Speaker 00

  It's, it's been almost nine years.

• 4:24Dr. John Delony?

  Nine years. So what, what resurfaced it now?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  It's always been about, for the last five, five, six years, um, I've been getting stronger in my faith. My mental health has returned. I'm, I'm back to being me again. And the old me would have never done, I'm gonna say the old me, I'm talking to old me of 20 years ago, would have never done something like this. Betrayed, betrayed a fam, betrayed my family, betrayed his family, betrayed his trust and his friendship. And, um, a big part of my healing, if you will, other than, you know, besides the fact of what God's done in my life, my wife has, has done, I certainly deserve nothing from

• 5:09Speaker 00

  her, but she's been a godsend, uh, was getting back to that point in my life where I had, where I had standards and I had principles that I lived by. And when I look at the failure that it would never have happened then, and what happened later, I feel, I, I feel like I need to, at least, you know, one, take 100% responsibility, because I'm not pointing fingers at anybody else. I could have stopped this. I didn't. But more to the point is, you know, just letting him know that not a day goes by where

• 5:50Speaker 00

  I don't think about him, the family that I hurt, his family and mine, my family knows, like, we're, we're good now. Our family's good. His family's good, for what I know. But just to let him know that I appreciated his friendship, I miss his friendship, and while I don't expect it, that we will ever be friends again, and I accept that, I, I want him to know how special his friendship was up until the point that I made the decisions that I made. And, but, uh, the real question I have is, am I opening up old wounds for him by doing that? Should I just let this go? And the reason I'm asking you is because every pastor I've asked, and every counselor,

• 6:33Speaker 00

  we're, they're evenly divided, 50/50.

• 6:36Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I'll be right, so all of them will be wrong. So just know that.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  There we go.

• 6:41Dr. John Delony?

  Um, here's, here's what I'm hearing, okay? And like I tell everyone, dude, I could be way off, okay? Here's what I'm hearing. Um, in, in the clarity of the past, right? Whenever we're looking at things in the rearview mirror, a few things we know from psychological research are true, okay? Thing number one is, our exact memories are almost never exact memories. Number two, our exact reasons are almost never exact reasons, especially eight, nine, 10 years ago. Our motives aren't exactly the motives that we remember, because it's filtered through

• 7:26Dr. John Delony?

  a decade of new experiences, growth, changes, et cetera, et cetera. And so what I'm hearing, the way you're talking about this is, this thing happened, this, this other thing was happening to you, and you could have stopped it, but this other thing, with all these external forces, happened upon you. And then even the life since then has been other external forces, God, your wife, all these other things. And where I would love to see, and, and where I'd love to see you land is, and there's a

• 8:07Dr. John Delony?

  reason why, is to kind of clear the smoke of all these things and say, I made a series of choices. And, and both, I made a series of choices to end up in the bed of my best friend's wife. And, and this is where the ownership gets really important as part of recovery, is yes, you've submitted to God. Excellent. You have asked for your wife's forgiveness, and she has given it to you. Excellent. And you, my brother, appear to have made a bunch of significant, minute by minute, hour by hour, changes in your life over the last eight, nine, 10 years. Is that true?

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 8:48Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So if you can take full ownership of, yes, I was struggling with anxiety and depression, I talked to millions of people who struggle with anxiety and depression, and they don't all cheat on their wives, right? And so if you can say, I was going through some things, and I chose not to do the things I needed to do to stay well and whole, and then I chose to do X, Y, and Z, and since then, I've chosen to submit to forgiveness, I've chosen to walk back in the doors of a church and be honest about it this time, I've chosen to accept forgiveness, I've chosen to work on my mental and emotional health, my physical health, I've lost weight, all those things. I want to empower you, is what I want to do. Okay? Because here's what I hear.

• 9:29Dr. John Delony?

  I hear a man who is, is, life is still happening to you, both the bad and the good, and there comes a point in everyone's life when they feel like life is happening to them, and they don't have any autonomy or agency in the bad stuff or in the good stuff, that they need other external forces to continue to make them be okay. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:59Dr. John Delony?

  And so what it sounds like to me is, you still haven't taken full ownership on either side of this ledger. I did this thing, and I've done these things. And I wasn't the man I wanted to be. I did some bad things. I hurt a lot of people that I loved and cared about. And since then, I've been really working hard in service to myself so that I can be in service to those I love and care about. And this dragon is always gonna be out there. Yes, I, I think you trying to reach out to him is about you, not about him.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:36Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me I'm wrong.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, well...

• 10:40Dr. John Delony?

  That you have this, you have this inner...

• 10:43Speaker 00

  That's exactly what others said.

• 10:45Dr. John Delony?

  This inner dragon that you are desperate to quit breathing fire on you, and maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, if he reaches back out and says, I forgive you, it'll go away. And A, that, it, it won't make it better.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:03Dr. John Delony?

  And...

• 11:09Dr. John Delony?

  I wouldn't want it. I'm thinking of my four or five closest best friends on the planet. If they slept with my wife, I wouldn't want to hear from them.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:17Dr. John Delony?

  I would want to be about my recovery and moving forward.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Okay. Then that tells me what I need to know.

• 11:25Dr. John Delony?

  If your friend reaches out to you and says, I forgive you,

• 11:30Dr. John Delony?

  then that to me, sounds like a really powerful, like if you'd written this letter six months after this happened, two weeks after this happened, if you'd gone and knocked on his door and risked getting your, your, your teeth knocked out and said, hey, I gotta look you in the eye and say, I messed up.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:46Dr. John Delony?

  Um, that's one thing. 10 years later feels like you still haven't fully gotten the driver's seat of your own life.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did. He and I did exchange text messages in the days following and he, and I did apologize and he, and it was a sincere apology and he said, I've already forgiven you. As tough as it is, I've already forgiven you.

• 12:07Dr. John Delony?

  And I'll say-

• 12:09Speaker 00

  And I asked him, could we, could we meet? And he said, that's probably not a good idea right now.

• 12:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  And I get it.

• 12:14Dr. John Delony?

  And I'll say, that was a pleasant exchange of information. That wasn't an apology. And that wasn't forgiveness.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:21Dr. John Delony?

  Cause it was, it wasn't.

• 12:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I, I just, I, I don't, I don't find value in relational connectivity via text message.

• 12:34Dr. John Delony?

  It's a good way to like, check something off a box, like to check something off a list.

• 12:41Dr. John Delony?

  Um, if you want, man, I, I, I'm torn here, man. So I'm thinking about this in real time. Cause I believe in redemption and I believe in restoration, or I wouldn't, I wouldn't do this job, right?

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:53Dr. John Delony?

  And I also believe in sometimes the bravest, most courageous thing to do is to quietly walk away.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's what some others have told me as well.

• 13:08Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and that means you are gonna have to take ownership of healing from the wounds you caused.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:22Dr. John Delony?

  Have you written a letter to him and not sent it?

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:26Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Tell me the contents of that letter.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Um, essentially it's what I just shared with you that I was, I started off by saying the following, you know, what I'm gonna tell you is does not, it's not attempt to be an excuse. It's not, it's not an attempt to justify because I was wrong in every aspect of this. But I wanted to put some context and what's happened since then.

• 13:57Dr. John Delony?

  And what I would tell you is, is almost always, you know what?

• 14:03Dr. John Delony?

  I won't say always because there's always, there are always things that somebody will bring up and I'll be like, well, you got a point there. Almost always on something this major, the context doesn't matter.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:16Dr. John Delony?

  Not for him. And so I, I, I'm gonna completely change course here on you and tell you a, a thing I was trained when it came to letting people know really bad news. Okay? Um, when I used to be a part of a team that would knock on doors and tell people that their loved ones had died, or that their kid had passed away.

• 14:39Dr. John Delony?

  The, the temptation, like it's so awkward, it's so hard, it's so uncomfortable that it's real easy to say, hey, listen, um, you know, it was raining tonight and then the, the clouds were really big, so there was no light in the sky. And you know, we had that power outage over there and it's still raining and all. And it ends up being a giant distraction from looking somebody in the eye, knocking on the door and saying, there has been a car wreck and your husband is dead. You get what I'm saying? The context there doesn't matter. What matters is this big, bad thing that happened.

• 15:15Dr. John Delony?

  And so-

• 15:16Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 15:17Dr. John Delony?

  I, I don't know that the context would be helpful here. Cause if I'm him, I'm saying, I don't care about your anxiety and depression. You're my best friend. You slept with my wife. I don't, I don't, I don't care what you were going through. You don't do that. And he, I, he would have a point, right? He'd be right. And so I, I think for me, the thing is, if you had to reach out to him and you were going to reach out to him, it would be as simple as, I did this thing and I'm sorry. 10 years later, I'm sorry.

• 15:46Dr. John Delony?

  And if, when you distill it down that way, I don't know what that would solve for him. I don't know what that would solve for you.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:54Dr. John Delony?

  And so going back to the owning everything,

• 16:00Dr. John Delony?

  there's something to be said for, yeah, if I look back in the rearview mirror, I can kind of piece together, here's what happened, here's what I was going through and all that stuff. All that stuff is true. All that stuff is honest in some version of it. I slept with my best friend's wife.

• 16:17Dr. John Delony?

  Then I lied about it. And yes, I'm grateful for my newfound faith. I'm grateful for my spouse. I'm grateful 10 years later that we, that our marriage is back together. And I've been doing a bunch of work, minute by minute, hour by hour, to change my life, to become a man that keeps his promises to himself and to others. A man that I can look in the mirror and respect, so that others can anchor into me.

• 16:44Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to own that too.

• 16:47Dr. John Delony?

  I'm proud of the man you've become in the aftermath of this horrible thing you did. I'm proud of you. It's hard.

• 16:55Dr. John Delony?

  It's hard not just to fold up in, under a, a wet blanket of shame and just never come out. But you've continued to show your face. You've continued to look your wife in the eye. You've continued to do the things you need to do to repair your relationship. And I'm proud of you for that.

• 17:11Dr. John Delony?

  And at some point, I want you to set down the guilt, quit carrying that cinder block around.

• 17:18Dr. John Delony?

  You did it, you, you did a bad thing and you're not, that doesn't make you forever bad.

• 17:27Dr. John Delony?

  And you can only do that for yourself.

• 17:31Dr. John Delony?

  I, I'm promising you, if he writes you a letter back or writes you an email back and says, I still forgive you, brother. I don't want to talk to you anymore, but I wish you the best. It's not gonna be the big ray of light that you think it's going to be.

• 17:45Dr. John Delony?

  If he came back and hugged you and said, I love you, I miss you, I want our friendship to kick back up again. By the way, I'm still married to that same woman. Man, that's a whole other universe. You all would have to, like, the resolution you're looking for, I believe is in the middle of your chest. And if you believe in this new faith you have, that God's forgiven you, if you look at your wife and believe she's forgiven you, the last, and you believe him, he texted you back, I forgive you. I don't want to see you, but I forgive you. The last person you've got to deal with is you.

• 18:15Dr. John Delony?

  And 10 years later,

• 18:18Dr. John Delony?

  my hope for you is that you look yourself in the mirror and forgive yourself. And then get about living life to the fullest, loving as well as you can. Thanks for the call, my brother. So yeah, my, my recommendation is don't send the letter. My recommendation is to exhale, make peace and then be about finding new best friends.

• 18:39Dr. John Delony?

  Thank you for the call, brother. When we come back, a man asks how to address a sexist remark from a senior leader after failing to speak up. We'll be right back.

• 18:49Dr. John Delony?

  The advancement of AI has made it easier than ever for scammers to get ahold of your personal information. And with technology like voice matching, scammers can now use what they know about you in ways that are almost impossible to detect. The scammers already have your home address, your kids' names, your past jobs. And listen, AI is helping them get better at using that information against you. That's where Delete Me comes in. Delete Me goes to hundreds of data broker sites that exist just to buy your personal information and sell it for profit without your consent. And they remove your information and then they keep removing it month after month.

• 19:29Dr. John Delony?

  They've already removed my information from thousands of sites and they keep monitoring. So my personal information isn't floating around out there everywhere for scammers to continue to grab. Listen, AI is changing the game. Delete Me, make sure you're not an easy target. Click the link in the description or go to joindelete.me/daloni to get 20% off an annual plan. That's J O I N. Joindelete.me/daloni.

• 19:58Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we've got less than 90 days until the full weight of the holiday season is upon us. And you know how it goes. Every year as the calendar starts filling up, you tell yourself, I'm not gonna let the holiday madness get to me this year. I'm gonna slow down and actually enjoy the holidays. I'm gonna actually be present, not just physically in whatever room I happen to find myself in. And then you're racing around to dinners, parties, kids' activities. It's madness and you're drained and the holidays become a burden. I've done the same thing, but here's one thing I've learned. One of the best ways you can slow down and work on being present long before the holiday season hits is staying grounded in your spiritual life.

• 20:41Dr. John Delony?

  Hallow is the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world, and I use it almost every day of my life for that very reason. To ground myself in my spiritual life, in my spiritual practices. Some mornings it's five minutes on the drive to work. Some nights it's a sleep prayer before bed. Whatever the moment is, Hallow helps me practice presence. Before the holidays takes everything from us and makes us all super busy, I'm gonna stay committed and I'm gonna invite you to stay committed to practice being present with Hallow. You can try Hallow for free for 90 days at hallow.com/daloni. Start now and Hallow will be free for you to try through the holiday season. That's hallow.com/daloni.

• 21:28Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we are back. Hey, don't forget, man, it would be such a gift if you're gonna get my brand new book, Building the Marriage You Want, preorder it now. Preordering helps everything with distribution, with getting the book in front of more people. It helps me, it helps everybody, and I will eventually mail you the book when it comes out. So, if you will go to john deloney.com, preorder the book, Building the Marriage You Want. It's everything I know about marriage. It's me pulling up a seat at your kitchen table with you, by yourself, or with you and your spouse, and talking through everything I know about conflict, about communication, new ways to do conflict, new ways to do communication, about being married with kids, about money in your marriage, about sex in your marriage,

• 22:11Dr. John Delony?

  about all of it. Building the Marriage You Want, available for preorder right now at john deloney.com. Go check it out. Let's go to Portland, Oregon, and talk to Alan. What's up, Alan? Hey, brother.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Hey, John. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call.

• 22:26Dr. John Delony?

  You got it, man. Thanks for calling. What's going on?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, so a couple of weeks ago now, I was, uh, I was working on a project. I'm a, I'm a junior, junior level manager at, at a small company. And, uh, we had a couple of senior leaders from our corporate office visiting. And we were in my office, uh, working on a project. And, uh, one of the senior leaders, uh, speaking about, uh, a vice president of the company, uh, happened to insinuate that she got her position by wearing high heels and short skirts and low cut tops. And it really took me aback. Um, cause I

• 23:11Speaker 02

  don't, I'm, I'm pretty young. I'm 30. I don't, I don't come from a culture where we, we talk about women like that. So, I, uh, I kind of froze a little bit. And I, uh, I eventually said something like, well, I'm gonna assume that's not why she got her position. And then I redirected the conversation back to our, back to our, uh, back to the work we were working on. But, um, ever since then, it's just kind of been sitting on me is if I've, uh, if I've done everything I should have done and everything I needed to do. Um, nobody brought it up again. Nobody said anything about it. Um, there was, there was another, another leader in the room, and, uh, him and I haven't talked about it. So, I'm, uh,

• 23:54Speaker 02

  I'm just one, I'm just wondering inside my chest and inside my head, whether I, you know, should say something to somebody, or if I said enough, or, you know, if I, uh, should just, uh, move on. And, um, yeah, I figured you've had some experience with this some, somehow, some way.

• 24:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think everybody has. Um, yeah. And let's take a sexist remark off the table and just put any remark on the table that somebody we respect, somebody who's got power over us, somebody who we report to, somebody who's like a grandparent, right? Everybody's had some people in their life say something. And we find ourselves in a quandary, right? Do we hit him in the mouth? Do we, and go to jail? Is that the right thing to do? Is the right thing to do to make sure we say our piece? Is the right thing to do to go find another place to work? Cause I don't want to be a part of a place

• 24:54Dr. John Delony?

  that has leadership like that. Right? And then, in, in, in my experience, there's layers to it, right? Um, I know folks who, some of the best people in the world who say something stupid, they're trying to be funny, and it's just dumb. And I, I know people, and, and so I can look at them and say, that, I know that person, they said something stupid, and I'm not even gonna address it. It's, it's a, it's a waste of my time, it's a waste of their time. They knew as soon as it came out of their mouth, that was stupid, right? I know that. And then I know other folk, times I've, I've made the decision professionally and personally, I'm not gonna be around that person. And so that means I gotta go find

• 25:34Dr. John Delony?

  a new job. Or that means I am gonna stop going to this particular thing, or hanging out in this particular area, right? So, so let me ask you, like, the only word I have here is fantasy. You know what I mean? I'm not talking about sexual fantasy. What?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I hear you.

• 25:53Dr. John Delony?

  What fantasy have you had? Like, how often have you replayed this and then, but you've like, like reimagined what you should have said, or should have done? In a perfect world, what would you have liked to have seen the, the version of yourself, like, rise up? What would that have looked like?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Um, so, uh, context, I, in the moment, when I, when I did say what I said, I, I didn't make eye contact. I didn't stand up and look at him. I didn't address him by name. And I think, I think the, the idealized version that I've replayed in my head is that I would have maybe been more direct and more explicit in my, in saying, that's not okay to say. And, you know, and I was in my office, my, my physical office. So, I think I probably would have had the grounds to say, you can't say that, at least in this office. You can't talk like that. And so I think, I think in my idealized head, I would have been more

• 26:54Speaker 02

  direct. I would have made more eye contact, and I would have been more explicit about my, um, opposition to, uh, to his viewpoint and what he said. And, um, I've tried hard not to replay it in my head, because I listen to you quite a bit, and I know it's, it's not always helpful, but.

• 27:10Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, bro, I would have replayed it a million times, a million times. Like, I'm, I'm shoving him, and he like takes a swing at me, and then I take him down, and like, no, dude, I would have replayed it a million times. And I would have been the hero every time, right?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm, I, I love being the hero in my own head. It's so easy. And I, uh, yeah, I definitely thought about if I was in a different context, I know how I would have reacted. If we were at a bar, if we were at a bar, I would have said, hey, you know, uh, you know, shut up, or, or something pretty direct. I would have been pretty, pretty straight with him. And if we were in a social situation, it would have been the same. But for me, I, I felt very uneasy because of the power dynamics and being in a professional setting. I just hadn't encountered it in that context before. So.

• 27:55Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and let's go one step deeper, okay?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 27:58Dr. John Delony?

  I share microphones with people all over the country.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:02Dr. John Delony?

  In front of millions of people, multiple times. Somebody has said something, and I've frozen. And in my head, I'm thinking, I'll address this off air, or I will come back after a break, or I will never do this show again, or I know how that's gonna look, but I know this person, and I know what that, what they actually meant, right? Like, I, and every time, I've had to make a choice, will I never do this particular thing again?

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:35Dr. John Delony?

  Or, um, have I, i- is it, did I get a layer of wisdom here? Because I think it's fair to say I got caught off guard.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:48Dr. John Delony?

  And I think part of growing wiser is learning, if this happens again, here's what I will do. And, uh, consequences be damned, or, you know, like, whatever, right?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:03Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and so I, I guess what I want to do is, A, honor the fact that you said anything. I want to honor the fact that you found yourself as a young professional caught off guard. And that's life, right? And now you've made a conscious decision that if this happens again, here's what I'm going to do next. And you're still wrestling with, do I even want to work here?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I am.

• 29:36Dr. John Delony?

  Do I want to work for leaders who treat people like this? Who talk behind their back like this?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  And, and, I'm absolutely right. And to go even deeper, do I want to work at a place where I feel like if I do speak up, I'm not sure anything is really gonna happen, you know?

• 29:54Dr. John Delony?

  Let me clarify for you. Nothing will happen.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 29:59Dr. John Delony?

  Except you might never get promoted again.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:02Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  That's, that's what I'm afraid of.

• 30:05Dr. John Delony?

  And so I think that's a great moment for everybody. And like I say, I've left jobs, plural.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:11Dr. John Delony?

  Because I don't want to X, Y, and Z. Right? I don't, I don't want, I, I can't reconcile this with me. Right? And I've also had conversations behind closed doors, where people have apologized and said, that won't happen again. And that's a place that I'm okay with staying because, like you just said, I want to give people grace when they say something stupid, they try to make a joke, and it's not funny, they, like, go too far, et cetera. And, um, they're willing to take ownership of what they said and how it hurt people. Right? And so can I throw something else at you?

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 30:55Dr. John Delony?

  And this is completely unfair, what I'm about to do, okay? But it was unfair when it was done to me, so I'm passing it on to you.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Understood, understood. I'm ready.

• 31:05Dr. John Delony?

  Um, so there was a situation at a university where I worked. And, long story short, um, there was a, I took a stand on a particular issue, um, with a particular, protecting a particular student. And I felt really strongly about it.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:25Dr. John Delony?

  And I felt so strongly about it that I spoke up aggressively. And the thing still happened, but I had a leader, um, who was honored me enough to say, I, I wanna, I wanna appreciate, I appreciate your stand on this. And so I'm gonna take this from you. The thing's still gonna happen, but I'm taking it from you, because I appreciate your, like, you're taking a hard stand here, and I believe that you believe you're right.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:49Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:50Dr. John Delony?

  And that wasn't good enough for me. And I think I was about, I don't remember how old I was. Anyway, I went to a, um, a mentor of mine, a person who I have deep, deep, deep respect for. And I sat down and laid it all out. And I'm gonna tell you what this person said to me, because it's haunted me, and it's changed the direction of my life.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:13Dr. John Delony?

  Okay? And when I say haunted, it haunted me, homie. So listen, so buckle up.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Well, and that, that, that makes me a little nervous, but go for it.

• 32:22Dr. John Delony?

  You should. Um, he said this. He said, after hearing all of this, and he looked me dead in the eye, in a small table we were sitting at, and he said, I want to let you know you're free to go. I think you're right. I think what's being done is wrong. I think it's how it's being handled is wrong. I think what's being done to this individual is wrong. I think what's being done to you is wrong, and the position it's putting you in is wrong. You're free to go. I want to release you from this, because I had this big, like, I don't, but then he said this. He said, but I want you to remember.

• 32:57Dr. John Delony?

  If everyone who has justification to walk out the door leaves,

• 33:04Dr. John Delony?

  that student will still be here.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:08Dr. John Delony?

  And so if every, if there's a senior leader who is ugly to, talks bad about women behind their back, and everyone walks out and says, "I'm not being a part of this," which you have every right to do. Hear me say that. And I have done that. She'll still be there, and so will he.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:30Dr. John Delony?

  And there's something, especially in this world of canceling of, "I can't talk to you, I can't buy Coke products because of how the CEO voted one time," like, it's so gotten so categorical and so out of control, right? And everything in our culture is guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. So you can just lob anything you want at any time with no context, and it just is, right?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:53Dr. John Delony?

  I have found a personal profound mission in personal relationships, in professional situations, in uncomfortable situations, where the boldest, most courageous thing for me personally is, "Oh, hell yeah, I'm gonna stay."

• 34:11Dr. John Delony?

  And every time this comes up, I'm gonna challenge it.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 34:14Dr. John Delony?

  Until you fire me. You get what I'm saying?

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:18Dr. John Delony?

  And then it, inside of me, it, it gives me that strength that I, I thought I was getting by fantasizing about winning some argument, right?

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:29Dr. John Delony?

  And so I'm gonna be a part of cultural change.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yep. I, uh, I hear that, and I,

• 34:40Speaker 02

  I think in my idealized version of, of moving forward is, is I would be the, you know, what's that phrase? Be the change you want to see in the world, right? Um, yeah, I, I guess wrestling with it is, you know, the big, the big thing weighing on my heart is, do I try to, do I try to make change now by making a lot of waves? Or do I stay and be an anchor point of, you know, of, uh, correct behavior and correct attitude and, and be an example as opposed to being a, I don't know, making a big stink about it and trying to, trying to see what happens, but you're right.

• 35:19Dr. John Delony?

  I just honor the fact that you're wrestling with this. I, in my personal life, and I don't want to make my story about you, man.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:26Dr. John Delony?

  I have found more strength, more intrapersonal strength, interpersonal strength,

• 35:34Dr. John Delony?

  in more often than not saying, "I'm gonna stay."

• 35:40Dr. John Delony?

  And when I no longer believe I can be a, a positive agent of change or of culture from the inside out, and I'm talking about a single friendship, I'm talking about the company where I work, I'm talking about the church I go to, like, then it may be time for me to go.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:58Dr. John Delony?

  But sometimes the most courageous thing is to stay.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:02Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:04Dr. John Delony?

  So, best of luck to you. Sorry.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Hey, no, it's, it's a, it's a weird, weird gray area situation, so I, I really appreciate your wisdom on it, and...

• 36:14Dr. John Delony?

  I like something about listening to you, something about me likes you, gritting your teeth and kind of smiling a little bit and saying, "Yeah, I'm gonna stay."

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:26Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm gonna keep my eyes wide open for men who try to run over these amazing women employees that I work with.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 36:34Dr. John Delony?

  And, uh, I'm gonna be wise about it, not stupid and not, I'm not gonna stoop to their level.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 36:40Dr. John Delony?

  But I'm gonna stay.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  I just want to make sure I'm, I'm creating a positive environment for everybody around me, and I think part of that is addressing, or, you know, um, making, making sure it's, it's not, it's known that that's not the environment I want to create, and...

• 37:00Dr. John Delony?

  But, but listen, make that...

• 37:02Speaker 02

  And the way, and the way to go about it, and the way to go about it is what I've been wrestling with. So I appreciate your, your clarity this morning, and that's, it's been helpful.

• 37:10Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to make whatever change you're going to make from a position of sturdiness and stability,

• 37:18Dr. John Delony?

  not from a position of reaction.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:21Dr. John Delony?

  And so there may be a place where you wisely, and it caught you off guard, so you were surprised, and the surprise happened.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:31Dr. John Delony?

  But there may be a, um,

• 37:38Dr. John Delony?

  sometimes barking in that moment isn't the right thing to do.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:43Dr. John Delony?

  Sometimes it's closing the door in the office and saying, "Hey, that didn't happen again."

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:47Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And there's much more power and control than there is into reaction. I think our whole world is reactive.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I, I couldn't agree more, and, um, I think that was one reason I wanted to reach out to you is because after I replayed it a couple hundred thousand times, I, I wanted to, uh, I wanted to not be, I wanted to not be reactive, but I also wanted to be considerate and, and thoughtful if I, if I choose with my next, with the next right choice, as you say.

• 38:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, so I'm gonna give you the same wisdom I got. You're free to go.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:24Dr. John Delony?

  Find a new job, find a place where you feel like you're more aligned with values and whatever.

• 38:30Dr. John Delony?

  And remember that if you leave, both she and he will still be there.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:38Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so say what you're gonna say, do what you're gonna do, but do it from a position of, "This is the man I want to be."

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yep, absolutely.

• 38:46Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And if you have to say the hard thing, and the hard thing may cost you your job, then say the hard thing.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I, uh,

• 38:57Speaker 02

  yeah, it's, um, yeah, it's not a fun, fun situation, but it's, uh...

• 39:02Dr. John Delony?

  Not by your hand, but in your lap, right?

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Exactly, and it's, it's, it's important to me to, to be the man I want to be in this situation, so...

• 39:09Dr. John Delony?

  That's what, that's what, that's what all of us are desperate for, right?

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 39:14Dr. John Delony?

  All of us need people who look in the mirror and respect themselves, and it would, it would lessen the reactivity quite a bit. But dude, I, I, I'm really grateful that you, um, spoke into this. Hey, before I, I, I leave, Kelly, will you speak in on this? I would love to get your opinion on it. You've been a woman in predominantly male workplaces forever.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, because I started in the music industry and in radio, and then here. Um, actually, I was so pleased with what he said, just the whole first comment about, well, we're gonna assume that's not how she got her job and then move on, because that right there to me said, "That's not okay."

• 39:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  In a polite yet like, "I heard what you said, and we're moving on." I thought that was brilliant.

• 39:59Dr. John Delony?

  Gotcha.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  I thought that was great, and, um, I wish more people would say something like that, because, I mean, yeah, we all, we're talking about, like, we all have those conversations in the shower later on where you're like, "And then I was gonna say, and then I should've said..."

• 40:10Dr. John Delony?

  Karate kicked him over the desk.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Exactly, but in the moment, you're just like, "Wait, what?"

• 40:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  And so most people don't say anything.

• 40:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  I thought what he said was fantastic, and, and I applaud him for it.

• 40:21Dr. John Delony?

  What do you think about the, um, uh, about staying or going?

• 40:26Speaker 03

  I think he's fine to stay. I have no problem with that at all.

• 40:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  If we, if we require that we work somewhere that we believe in every single thing that someone says or does...

• 40:35Dr. John Delony?

  We'll all be unemployed.

• 40:36Speaker 03

  We're all gonna be unemployed and homeless.

• 40:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, sometimes you have to be the change, you have to be the person that says something or that does something different, um, and calls out those things like he very subtly incorrectly did.

• 40:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  So no, I don't think you have to leave, um, every place you work now if something illegal's going on, and people are, you know, pushing you under the rug and hiding it, that's a different story.

• 40:59Dr. John Delony?

  Total, 100%.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  But no, I think he's fine to stay and just do better.

• 41:02Dr. John Delony?

  Be that agent of change.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  Do better than that guy did, but I think what he did was great.

• 41:06Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome. Thanks for the call, brother. You got Kelly's stamp of approval, which I still haven't got yet, so well done, brother. When we come back, a couple calls in who wants to get out of survival mode after dealing with kids and learn to delight in their kids and their life again. We'll be right back.

• 41:25Dr. John Delony?

  Here's something I've learned over the years, sitting with young men who are struggling with trauma, addiction, mental health challenges, or other destructive behaviors. One 50-minute session a week might not be enough to turn things around and to help facilitate major change. This is where Capstone Wellness can help. To make real progress and practice actually living differently, sometimes young men need a totally new environment. Capstone Treatment Center is a long-term residential program for struggling young men ages 14 to 28. It's a structured environment with trained licensed clinicians, and healing at Capstone isn't something that just happens in a room. It's woven into every part of every day.

• 42:06Dr. John Delony?

  And it's not what you would call a traditional sit around and talk program. It's action oriented. They let young men practice the weight of responsibility and care. One way they do this, and I love this, every young man is paired with a Labrador Retriever puppy. Being responsible for something that needs you and loves you unconditionally every day is healing as a daily practice. And when the young man graduates, the dog goes home with him and his family. Listen, I trust Capstone. If my own son needed this level of care, Capstone would be my first call. Learn more at capstonewellness.com/deloney. That's capstonewellness.com/deloney.

• 42:45Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we are back. We're gonna go out to Calgary, Alberta, and talk to a couple. I'm gonna bring Jenny from the block up first. Hey, Jenny?

• 42:54Speaker 04

  Hello, Dr. John.

• 42:56Dr. John Delony?

  Thank you for calling in. Let me bring in Patrick here. Hey, Patrick?

• 43:02Speaker 05

  Hey, Dr. John.

• 43:03Dr. John Delony?

  All right. Are you all in the same house?

• 43:06Speaker 05

  We are.

• 43:07Dr. John Delony?

  Who? Are y'all sitting by each other?

• 43:10Speaker 04

  No, we were told not to.

• 43:11Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, I just want to make sure Patrick, you're not like in elbow range or something. Okay, all right.

• 43:15Speaker 05

  No.

• 43:17Dr. John Delony?

  Um, so, uh, Jenny, I picked you up first, so you go ahead. What's going on?

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Sure. Our question is, how do we get out of survival mode to delight in our kids again?

• 43:30Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, my gosh. Great question. So paint me a picture. What's going on?

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Okay, we've got a three-year-old girl and a five-year-old boy, and they are awesome. Um, but our daughter, she had some medical issues when she was born, and she screamed for eight months and then cried for five more. Um, that's all resolved now. She's delightful. She's easy. She's so fun, but both of our nervous systems were just in high gear that whole year. And then our five-year-old, our son, he's in the process of getting diagnosed with giftedness, which means he's like super cool and fascinating, but he just never shuts up.

• 44:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  And so he's quite overstimulating. So our nervous systems just haven't shifted down, and we are not enjoying parenting anymore. Um, we miss kind of being present with them and playing with them and delighting in them. And we have lots of support. We have lots of opportunities to get away, but that isn't a full reset. And we've noticed that we're yelling more, or like our fuses are shorter, and we just hate that.

• 44:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Patrick, what do you think, brother?

• 44:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think my wife, she summed that up pretty good. I think for me, it's, I have no patience. I'm trying to find grace for them, and, you know, I can come home from a day of work feeling good, and, you know, I feel set off by even the smallest things. You know, yesterday, they're eating supper, and we're eating pasta, and they're, you know, they're little kids, and they're playing with pasta in their hands, and I'm like, you know, I feel like I could snap at any minute, and like, this isn't fair to them.

• 45:18Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 45:20Speaker 05

  You know, they're just kids, and, yeah, it's trying to find the joy in the little things.

• 45:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Um, paint me, pan back out from the two kids. Paint me a picture of your home, your work situation, your aging parent situation, um, financial stresses. Like, paint me a fuller picture. Are y'all living a pretty run-and-gun life?

• 45:52Speaker 04

  We have such a good life. Like, I really, you talk about coming home and your home feels peaceful, and I would say that the specific situation we're calling about is what is tension, but it's not the kids. We laugh a lot with the kids. We have, both of our families, everyone is a, you know, both of our parents are together. We are so loved and supported. Our grand, our, the kids' grandparents, our parents, they delight in our kids, and I just want to be their grandparents instead of their parents. Um, but yeah, like financially, we're good. Like, we're both happy in our jobs. Um.

• 46:31Dr. John Delony?

  So where does, like, the responses you are telling me about, A, y'all aren't out of your mind, totally normal, okay? Um, but they tend to come from one of two places, not always, but, but generally speaking. One is a lack of margin that reduces our ability to hang in there emotionally. Meaning, like, if I'm running at 99.9% capacity, and I'm trying to read a book, and my daughter comes in and is like, Dad, this happened this morning. I came up with a new cheer. And I'm sorry, it was last, it was last night. And I'm like, what? And she's like, I got a new cheer. And I'm at full capacity. My response is not going to be what I want it to be.

• 47:17Dr. John Delony?

  But it's on me because I have not given myself the emotional capacity. If, if, if everything in your life is perfect, and sometimes that capacity is because financial strain, work strain, political strain, family strain, like, if that's not the thing, the second, the second path I see people struggle on is a very idealized version of quote-unquote "the way things should be."

• 47:48Dr. John Delony?

  And if you're the way things should be, and so you, if you ever listen to my show, you hear me talk about pictures. If the picture you have of having family dinner is that everybody is like a TV show, and everybody's sitting there neatly, and everybody's doing their thing, and there's a violation of that picture. And that picture can be, um, I'm trying to think of non-nerdy ways to say it. It can be conscious or unconscious, right? Um, and there's a violation of the picture in your, in your heart and mind, it can cause an emotional outburst. Or that feeling like you were talking about, Patrick, like, you feel it rising, and you're like, just stay down, man, right? And you find yourself clenching your jaw, or, right, and then everybody just dominoes. Are, do either of those paths ring true?

• 48:35Speaker 04

  I would say for me, it's, it's the first, which feels kind of contradictory, because our, our life is good. Like, like, if I wrote down all the good things, I would, you know, it would be easy for me to do. Um, but I think it's just the generic, every day, you know, you gotta make supper and get everybody dressed, and, and just the day-to-day things, which,

• 49:00Speaker 04

  maybe it's just my capacity that's impaired, and not actually, like, I think we run a very normal household.

• 49:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 04

  So that's, I think, why I'm calling is why is that normal so overwhelming?

• 49:13Dr. John Delony?

  Patrick, what do you think, man? Do either of those paths work for you?

• 49:17Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I would say, you know, I resonate with my wife on that. My kids, yeah.

• 49:24Dr. John Delony?

  So I'm gonna ask y'all a weird question that sounds like it's not from this call, but it is.

• 49:30Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm actually glad y'all aren't in the same room, just because I don't want the answer influenced, okay? Um, honest to goodness, how's your marriage?

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Good. No, I, I.

• 49:48Speaker 05

  I would say.

• 49:51Dr. John Delony?

  What, what is, what does that mean?

• 49:55Speaker 04

  I have told Patrick quite often how I'm so thankful that in that first year of our daughter's life where she just screamed, I, I can see how that would break up 95% of marriages, because we were both just so depleted, and we clung to each other. Like, I, you know, he'd come home from work, and I'd pass him the baby, and I'd go sit outside because she's your problem now.

• 50:25Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right.

• 50:26Speaker 04

  And, and I think we regroup after we put the kids to bed, and I, I do exhale in his presence.

• 50:35Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think we have a great marriage. And, you know, I think it's hard to have quality time together, you know, with go-go-go. And then, once the kids are finally in bed, if they go to bed, that's.

• 50:54Dr. John Delony?

  Sure, of course.

• 50:55Speaker 05

  As they should. It's hard to find, I think, good quality time, and, you know, de-stressing, and so.

• 51:04Dr. John Delony?

  And, and, and so, and here's where I'm poking at you, but it's, it's not to be provocative, okay? It's to get to, I'm seeing if there's layers here, and there may not be, okay?

• 51:14Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:15Dr. John Delony?

  Sometimes our spouses can become anxiolytics. Uh, they can become anti-anxiety medicine, not delight.

• 51:29Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 51:30Dr. John Delony?

  They can become a place where, um, you're up, like, we can be seamless. I'm, I'm thinking of, the picture in my head is that show The Bear, um, the cooking show, where they're just, I mean, you got a chef, you got all these sous chefs, you got all these people, and it looks like a symphony. They're all just moving in sync with each other, and the goal is to get the food out on the table, but, man, they're not connecting at all. They're not delighting in each other. They have a really tight logistical situation going on, and it's almost down perfect.

• 52:06Dr. John Delony?

  Um, but what I, what I'm looking for when you say good marriage, um, the question that's popping in my head is, are y'all friends? Do y'all still wink at each other? Do you still make funny faces behind your kids' backs at each other? Do you still smack each other on the rear? Do you still go sneak and get ice cream? And after the kids are in bed, you're like, we're doing this tonight. Like, are, are you, are you friends?

• 52:37Speaker 05

  I would say absolutely.

• 52:39Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome.

• 52:39Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 52:40Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  And I think it's, it's kind of, I don't know, funny is probably not the word, but, but he says quality time. And I, I don't think it's for lack of time. Like our kids generally do go to bed. We have the opportunity for two or three hours every evening to ourselves, but we're both so depleted, you know, where we would previously use that time to, you know, play a board game or whatever. Now it's like, we need to recover from the day.

• 53:16Dr. John Delony?

  Totally. Yes.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  On our phone or, or whatever, where it's, yeah, we have time together, but is it quality time?

• 53:22Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and, and, and that's a question I would pose to any couple, but y'all especially is, are there some places where y'all are doing life, um, six inches apart, but 6,000 miles away from each other?

• 53:35Dr. John Delony?

  Y'all are, y'all have collapsed into bed, but you're reading your book, he's reading his. You're on your phone, he's on his. You're watching your show, he's on his iPad. And we're right next to each other. We're even holding hands, but we're on different planets.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, phones and social media, like probably, probably wasted too much time on things like that, I would say.

• 54:00Dr. John Delony?

  And, and here's, here's, I don't wanna, I don't wanna focus too much on that, um, cause I got one big other rock I wanna look under. But here's what I want to, to challenge you on. Um, scrolling is not benign. It's actually, your brain is on hyper overdrive.

• 54:19Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:20Dr. John Delony?

  And so it's, it's, it feels like I just spent all day, like playing defense against like an invading army, right? And now I'm collapsing into my bed. I'm right next to my ride or die wife, husband, who I love, who loves me. We delight in each other. We still wink and laugh at each other. And then boom, I pull up, zoo, all the trauma in the world, all the opinions in the world, all of the can you believes, and this happens, and then that's, and then this is, and the sports scores and the whatever. For your nervous system, it's just not only reignited, but it's, it's escalated the ignition.

• 55:00Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:01Dr. John Delony?

  And so what I, I would tell you is I'm hearing, recovery is not too strong of a word. I'm hearing people reclaim peace by turning screens off. And that usually comes with a great, uh, almost like getting off an SSRI. It comes with a season of great tension.

• 55:21Dr. John Delony?

  Because people are like, okay, what do I do now? What do I do now? We have to relearn ways to find what I would call real peace inside of our chest, inside of our home, inside of our bedroom, inside of our whatever. That's not this scroll, scroll escalation, YouTube clip to the next clip, and to the next clip, to the next show, to the next show. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 55:41Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah.

• 55:42Dr. John Delony?

  So that's something for y'all to do on your own, but just to consider it. Try this. Try a five days in a row with no phones after the kids go to bed.

• 55:50Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:51Dr. John Delony?

  No screens. And I'll send you all of the, uh, questions for humans I have for couples. I'll, I'll send you all the dating ones, and the couples one, and the intimacy deck. And y'all just, for five days, talk to each other.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  Thank you. That's cool.

• 56:05Dr. John Delony?

  And you might just be like, I don't like you as much as I thought I did. Or, and I'm totally kidding, I'm totally kidding. Or you might find, oh my gosh, I'm sleeping a little deeper. I've got, I'm, I'm giving myself just this much more margin. And by the way, you have a three and a five year old? You're in the middle, the dead, and you'll get this more than I would. I grew up in Texas, you're in Alberta. You are in the dead of winter right now.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  Getting there.

• 56:32Speaker 05

  Getting there.

• 56:32Dr. John Delony?

  No, no, no, no. I'm talking about in your season of life.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  Okay. Yeah.

• 56:37Dr. John Delony?

  Y'all are wearing thick winter coats. The house smells like smoke, cause you got fire going 24/7, 365. But listen, I promise you, spring is coming.

• 56:48Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 56:49Dr. John Delony?

  That three year old, it's gonna be magic. She's just gonna go to the bathroom by herself and then get in the bath by herself. And you're gonna feel like you got eight years left of your life. And I promise you that five year old's aim is gonna get better and it's not gonna be pee in every corner of your bathroom. And I promise you that the spaghetti will find itself more and more on the plate. And you, like, the good old days are usually in the rearview mirror, right?

• 57:18Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 57:20Dr. John Delony?

  Um, I just don't.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  I think I'm so conscious of that, that I'm.

• 57:23Dr. John Delony?

  I know, but don't be so conscious of it, that you don't give yourself permission to be really frustrated when a five year old dumps his plate of spaghetti. You're supposed to be frustrated. Right?

• 57:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:32Dr. John Delony?

  And I talked to a woman yesterday on my show, who's just dropped her last kid off of college. And she was like, I miss the stains. I miss the volume. I miss yelling upstairs, y'all be quiet. And.

• 57:42Speaker 04

  I, I'd often say, like, when, when we look back and, and reminisce on these times, can we just be realistic about how much is fucked also?

• 57:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, yes. So don't, don't pre, don't pre forecast, don't pre grieve something and, which takes away your permission to be frustrated in the moment. Be frustrated. You're allowed to be.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:03Dr. John Delony?

  It's all good. Your kids don't need to wear that. They can't wear it. But y'all be frustrated.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 58:09Dr. John Delony?

  All right. One, one last thing. Jenny, I have for you. Okay?

• 58:12Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:13Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm gonna pull this rock up, and there may be nothing here under this one. Okay?

• 58:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:18Dr. John Delony?

  I'm only picking up on this because you, the way you talked about it a few times.

• 58:24Dr. John Delony?

  Do you harbor any sort of guilt over the hell your daughter went through in year one?

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Oh, I was gonna say no, but now I'm starting to cry. So maybe, um, logically, no. I.

• 58:42Dr. John Delony?

  Nothing on this show is logic, Jenny.

• 58:46Speaker 04

  Um, we fought for answers for a long time. And, yeah, she was in a lot of pain and, and we weren't really getting heard. And so I do, yeah, should I have pushed more? And now that she's, she's bad, and she's so easygoing, I just look back and go, man, she must have been hurting so much.

• 59:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  Um, so yeah.

• 59:13Dr. John Delony?

  Here's what I want you to do. I want you, how old are you right now, Jenny?

• 59:19Speaker 04

  Oh, good question. Uh, 35.

• 59:22Speaker 05

  35.

• 59:23Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to write a letter to 32 year old you.

• 59:30Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to, in that letter, I want you to say, you're about to enter into a really dark season. That's the first section. I want you to explain, here's what's about to happen to you. And I want you to put yourself back there. Okay?

• 59:45Dr. John Delony?

  And then the second part of this letter, I want you to talk about, um, life at 35 with this amazing, hilarious, easygoing, three year old little girl.

• 1:00:01Dr. John Delony?

  And then at the end of the letter, I want you to tell, I want you to celebrate, 32 year old you. I look back and I see how hard you fought for your little girl. And I wanna tell you three years later, that, that your fighting wasn't in vain. It all worked out. And here's the kind of mom I'm gonna continue to be moving forward. But I want you to let her go. Cause I think she's still running the show a lot.

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  I think so. I find when I look back at pictures of that season of life, I feel very, um, hollow.

• 1:00:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. And it's not, it's, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be abnormal for, when you look at those pictures, that your body goes zoom, almost like a vacuum, and pulls you right back to that time three years ago. You could probably feel it in your chest.

• 1:00:53Speaker 04

  Yep, for sure.

• 1:00:54Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to let her go. She was a great mom.

• 1:01:00Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:01Dr. John Delony?

  And then I want you to read that letter to Patrick. And Patrick, if you have that same thing, you do the same exact thing. Y'all, I want y'all to share this with each other.

• 1:01:09Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:09Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:01:10Dr. John Delony?

  Now, I want y'all to bring peace to three year ago, three year ago, y'all, so that y'all can be free to move forward. So there's three big pictures here. Number one, y'all went through a pretty traumatic experience with an infant who was in a ton of pain that couldn't advocate for herself, and a medical system that wouldn't listen to parents saying, something's not right here. It's traumatic. It changes you. And I want you to, forgiveness, I don't know if that's the right word, cause I don't think you have anything to forgive them for. Y'all fought hard for your marriage, for each other, for your kid. And that's

• 1:01:50Dr. John Delony?

  amazing. But I want you to let them go. Their vigilance, their franticness, their, things have to be this certain way right now. That season has passed for now. Let's let them, let's let them rest. The second thing is, I want y'all to be really hyper intentional about finding delight and joy and fun, not numbing. And all we're looking for is two or three or four degrees more of margin. Just tiny little pockets of margin where our bodies can actually rest, so that we can get up and manage the chaos of a three year old and a five year old, who are fully being three and five. And the third thing I want

• 1:02:32Dr. John Delony?

  to, to just, I'm smiling here. Spring is coming. Summer's coming. Y'all are right in the middle of it, but you're also right on the cusp of not having diapers everywhere, not having so, you have a different chaos, but it's, it's gonna be, it'll be a different chaos, not the same chaos. And there is, like, a piece is on the way. So hang in there. Hang in there. You two are delightful. It's an honor to talk to you. I, it's, I love talking to great parents who are trying to do it well, do it well. Um, you're well with, it's right to be frustrated. It's right to get, ah, all that's right and good. Y'all are doing great. We'll be right back.

• 1:03:18Dr. John Delony?

  All right, you've heard me talking about it for a month and it's official. My brand new book, Building the Marriage You Want, is available for preorder. Picture me sitting at the table with you and your spouse, helping you both take the next right step in your marriage. That's what this book is, me sitting at the table with you both, walking you through what to do in your marriage. I get into all of it, why marriage is so hard in the 21st century, why I think marriage still matters, and I'll give you a playbook for the stuff that trips most couples up: communication, conflict, sex, money, being married with kids, all of it. Nothing is off the table. If you like this show, you're gonna love this book.

• 1:03:59Dr. John Delony?

  Preorder Building the Marriage You Want today for $24.99 and get over $100 in preorder bonus items. Go to johndalony.com. All right, we're back. Kelly, am I the problem?

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  All right, before I read this, two things. First thing, we want your voicemails, your am I the problem voicemails. Call us at 844-693-3291. Leave us your voicemail, we will play it on the air, so just know that. Tell me your name and location. I don't care if it's correct, I don't care who you say you are. A name and location, or I'll make one up for you. Put, am I the problem, say that right at the beginning, so we know that, and then read it. It has to be something, less than 60 seconds, has to be something that John can answer quickly without a lot more context. Or, like we've said before, we will make the context up and it will be fantastic. Yes.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Second, I'm about to read, am I the problem, that talks about certain people and/or characters that our children celebrate at certain times of the year. So if your children are listening and you don't want them to know about these things, giving you time to stop this right now. All right, now I'm gonna read this from John in Whitman, Arizona. "Am I the problem for not wanting to have Santa as part of our family tradition?"

• 1:05:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Let me finish.

• 1:05:28Dr. John Delony?

  All right.

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  "Recently, Deloney told a man struggling with telling lies to go hard into telling the truth. A few years ago, I reached the same point and the same solution. Deloney has also publicly said that embracing Santa is not lying to your kids. It is important to my wife to have Santa and the magic of Christmas for our now one-year-old like she had growing up, also the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. I think we can have magic without that. I've tried to tell her about how I was before I met her and my dedication now to always telling the truth. We did Santa last year when our child was four months old, and it feels very uneasy for me and wrong to lie, even if everyone does it, or if it will have minor, if any, consequences, or if I say this is the only lie that I will ever tell.

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  I want my kids to know that their father was always honest with them. How do I square wanting to remain honest and the fact that these characters are very important to my wife?"

• 1:06:20Dr. John Delony?

  All right, so, great question, and I want to honor the fact, I don't think you're being a jerk, I think you're actually wrestling with this, and I have, I have high respect for that. Okay, so, here's how I would couch it. Let's say you were gonna do a surprise birthday for your third grader, and your third grader's like, "Dad, are we having a party?" And you're like, "Not this year, just me and you and mom are gonna get a cake, and maybe a little brother." And then your kid came home, and surprise, all their friends were there, and it was a blast, and there was presents and cake, whatever. Did you deceive your kid? Yeah, you did.

• 1:07:05Dr. John Delony?

  Did you not tell them the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Yeah, technically you did. Did you give them magic? Yes. And so there's things like Santa Claus, there's things like the Easter Bunny, there's things like surprise birthday parties that are part of a grander cultural picture, which is, everybody gets swept up in this thing, and it's fun to pretend we're out of the drudgery of the day in and day out life, and, and, and. And I don't view those things as lying, as being, what I would say, dishonest.

• 1:07:48Dr. John Delony?

  And I would also go one step further when it comes to kids, radical honesty can bury a child. Here's what I mean. I talk to folks all the time who has a spouse who cheated on them, and they're like, "Should I tell my five-year-old?" No. Your daddy's a liar and a cheat, and he, no. That kind of radical honesty will bury a five-year-old, because half of that five-year-old is also half of the other parent. And so if the other parent's evil and bad, well, maybe half of me is evil and bad. And so there is times that we're gonna not be radically honest, we're always gonna tell the truth in those kind of situations. Daddy made a bad choice, daddy's not, daddy's not well, mommy didn't, whatever. But we're not gonna bury kids with quote-unquote radical honesty.

• 1:08:33Dr. John Delony?

  So, for me, and again, I'm gonna let you make this decision in your home, because I believe you're genuinely wrestling with it. I don't view participating in holidays as, or birthday celebrations, things like, I don't, I don't view that as lying, as being dishonest, even though technically, I guess, you're right, you got me, it is dishonest. I do believe that you tell the kids the truth in ways they can handle it. And by the way, you're also asking, by, by you feeling like, "I have to be honest," you, with your two-year-old, with your four-year-old about Santa, you are also choosing to isolate

• 1:09:15Dr. John Delony?

  them from everyone else in their class, everyone else that they're around. So your need to, "I will be like this," is gonna cost them socially, cost them magic, cost them interactions, and I think it's important to balance that, too. What do you think, Kelly?

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  I 100% agree with you on that. I mean, yeah.

• 1:09:34Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna clip that, I don't think you've ever said that.

• 1:09:35Speaker 03

  I should. 100% agree. I don't, I don't recall, and I'm sure there's somebody out there that was mad at their parents when they found out, but I don't recall being mad at my parents, I just recall there was a day when you just grew out of that belief. You know, it wasn't like, "I hate y'all, you lied to me." I'm sure that that's happened somewhere, but, no, I don't find any harm, I've raised two kids, both believed in Santa, both believed in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, I have a special needs daughter that still does, she's 23 and we still do it.

• 1:10:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Because she believes. And I've now brought my son, as soon as he quit believing, we brought him into it. And so, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Let them have imagination. Do you tell them that Mickey Mouse isn't real, or, you know, you don't let them watch things where animals talk on, you know, Disney movies, because it's not honest?

• 1:10:29Dr. John Delony?

  It's not real, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Dr. John Delony?

  No, I, I think the world is so devoid of magic, that, man, if I can, if I can get my kids to participate in magic, I'm all for it, all for it. Even, never mind, I was gonna say something, it was, just know this, it was gonna be hilarious, but I'm trying to be less cancelable. So, love you guys, bye.