Disembodied Busybodies

Pushy roommates are the worst. Katherine’s are stubborn and demanding… but they’re also dead and disembodied. And she doesn’t know how to get rid of them.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Glynn Washington?

  When I'm in the shower,

• 0:08Glynn Washington?

  I'm afraid to wash my hair because I might open my eyes and find someone standing there.

• 0:17Glynn Washington?

  People, they say I'm crazy, maybe it's a little touch, but perhaps showers remind me I'm psycho too much.

• 0:32Glynn Washington?

  You've crossed over to Spooked. Stay Spooked.

• 0:43Glynn Washington?

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• 1:26Glynn Washington?

  Spooksters, you have spoken. We want more spook, you said. We want to support the show, you said. And can we please, for the love of all that is holy, please get rid of those ads? Well, prayers answered. Spooked Plus has risen. Ad-free spook, the entire library, no interruptions, just you and whatever's lurking in the shadows. Exclusive bonus stories every month, fresh nightmares you won't hear anywhere else. The Spooked Plus community, listen together, chat in real time because no one should face the darkest alone. And, and, ask me anything for yours truly.

• 2:10Glynn Washington?

  If you've got questions, I've got answers. Maybe. And we're just getting started. Spook says, "We are a small team chasing down the big mystery. Your support keeps this flame burning, so come on in. The door is open. Spooked.supercast.com. That's Spooked.supercast.com. Spooked Plus. Don't turn out the lights.

• 2:46Glynn Washington?

  I've never been one to court visitation. All that yelling Bloody Mary in the mirror, trying to tempt the candy man or whatever. It seemed like a bad idea to me from a very early age. But my brother, just 12 months younger than I, 12 months, but he had a different relationship with the land of shadow. Where I built the line between here and there, between us and them. My brother observed no such demarcation. He'd talk out loud the things I could not see.

• 3:28Glynn Washington?

  He'd threaten, cajole, laugh, laugh, as if with old friends. Maybe they were, in fact, old friends, old friends. He's with his old friends now, another side of this veil, and I hope they are still laughing. I hope.

• 3:54Glynn Washington?

  I hope.

• 4:01Glynn Washington?

  And how I wish this wall of bricks I built between here and there, between us and them, between he and I, how I wish I could pass through it, even for a moment, just like he did.

• 4:30Glynn Washington?

  Anyways, from Washington, everything is everything. Is everything, brother.

• 4:38Glynn Washington?

  Spooked stars. Now.

• 5:03Glynn Washington?

  Now then, as I've mentioned, some folk have a relationship with the other side. They see what's beyond the veil and they run toward it. I am not one of those people.

• 5:16Glynn Washington?

  But our storyteller, Catherine,

• 5:19Glynn Washington?

  she is spooked.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  I walk inside and I walk into this kitchen. There's coriander countertops that are cracked. There's this peeling linoleum that's this cornflower blue and white checker pattern. There's this border of birdhouses around the room. I'm enveloped by this warm feeling. It was just this friendliness and calm.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  This feeling that Catherine Dean is experiencing, it's not just ambiance or good decor. She says it has a personality.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  So I go walking through this house. This feeling has fallen in. I can tell that she's an older woman and she's very friendly.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Now, she can't see anyone. No apparitions, no flowing figures. But to her, it's like she's being taken on a guided tour.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  And so I'm walking through and I'm kind of quietly chatting with her as we go. And I would see shapes on the wall that would suggest picture frames. And I'd say, "You hung something there." And she would go, "Yes."

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Catherine doesn't actually hear someone say yes or no, but she feels it. It's kind of like somebody telling you, "I'm so happy." But take the words out of it and leave the emotion. Catherine understands the emotion.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  She picked this really cute border that you would normally put at the top of a room. And she put it underneath the chair rail in the dining room. And I said, "That's a really cute floral pattern. I like that a lot." And she would say, "Thank you." Little things like that. It was questions and compliments, and that's how I moved through the space. When I moved back to the kitchen to go outside to get my parents, I opened a cabinet. I don't remember her telling me to open the cabinet, but I opened the cabinet and I looked down and there was a Medicare card. And that's when I found out her name, Joyce Dodge. And so I went, "Okay, Joyce, thanks for showing me around. I'm gonna go get my parents." And so we went through the rest of the house. Joyce followed.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  By the time we made it back downstairs, the realtor had showed up. And I am grinning from ear to ear and I'm just going, "This is the house. This is it. Here we are. The search is done."

• 7:59Speaker 02

  So Catherine got her house and she started dreaming up all the changes and improvements she was going to make. And she was dying to share them with her new housemate.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I'm very excited to talk with Joyce again. She was excited to bring me into her home. I was excited to involve her in the repairs to this home. Joyce is this soft-spoken, sweet woman. I've never seen a picture of her, but I imagine her to be shorter, just because she has the personality of someone short, if that makes sense.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  She's someone who gets in and out of a lot of places. And sometimes she does it very quickly and sometimes she creeps. She slowly comes around the corner. And she will watch you to make sure that you're OK with her being there. When my mother and I were outside and we were talking about how we wanted to do the garden, she got really excited. You know, there's a lilac bush in the backyard and I just feel Joyce be so happy that I'm going to keep this lilac bush alive, you know, little things like that.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  The garden, the kitchen, Catherine had it all scoped out, but she didn't really pay much attention to what was underneath, in the basement.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  So when I walk into this basement and I'm looking around and I'm inspecting the stairwell in the back and the remnants of the Bilka doors and the shower and this cannon cabinet, I feel something behind me. And it's not Joyce. And I start to get concerned. And so I promptly high-tail it out of the basement because I don't know what that is. I don't want to deal with it. And I'm starting to worry. I'm like, did I get myself into something more than I can bite off, you know? Joyce is in the rest of the house. This thing is in the basement. Maybe it's fine that it's just in the basement.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  OK, so the basement's a little creepy, but the rest of the place was pretty cute. It still wasn't ready to move in, though. Catherine is an English teacher, so after the school day was over, she'd come over to the house at night and fix it up.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  I was here fairly late. It wasn't quite 10 o'clock yet, but it was getting close. I was working on something in the living room. And I just felt something come up from the basement. And this thing comes and finds me and tells me, "It is 10 o'clock. You need to leave." I can't see this man, but now I recognize him as a man. And I was in a panic because I didn't know who that person was. But once he was standing in the dining room, looking at me in the living room, and I could tell he was like leaning on the wall and his arms were crossed and he's just kind of looking at me, and now I understand who he is.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  See, as soon as she showed her mother Joyce's Medicare card, they looked her up to find out as much as they could about Joyce Dodge.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  We found when she had been born, when she passed away, when her husband had been born, and we found her husband's name, Jimmy Dodge. Where Joyce had been a little bit confused, but open to the fact if someone was coming, he was not pleased with it. The way that he is moving through this house, the way he is interacting with the spirit of Joyce, the way he's not overpowering her, but he's setting limitations. And I'm like, oh, you're Jimmy. We will address this later, but I'm getting out now.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  She went back to her mom's house where she was staying, went up to her room, and tried to figure out what to do with her roommate situation.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  So I'm laying in bed and I'm going, okay, how do I establish respect and trust? The trick with getting anyone to change is doing one thing at a time.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  She knew that the next time Jimmy started to throw his weight around, she was going to have to stand her ground and talk to him in a language he could understand.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I didn't talk back, but I would tell him no. I'm going to stay after 10 o'clock because I poured too much paint into this cup and I'm not going to put it back. I'm going to finish this. And I would say, yeah, give me a half an hour more. And then I would work and I would make sure that I was done within that half an hour, and then I would go. And that's how he understood that I meant what I was saying.

• 12:34Glynn Washington?

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• 13:06Glynn Washington?

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• 13:57Speaker 01

  After a while, he didn't mind that I was there, you know, after 10, so long as I was working and not diddling around. It was just, I had to get to that point first.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Catherine would mix plaster, patch the walls, and it felt to her like Jimmy finally stopped micromanaging and Joyce was all in on the new renovations. But then one day, she came by to check up on her kitchen contractor.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I am walking up the driveway and I see the gas stove on the back porch. The first thing that hits me in the face before I can even register what's going on in the kitchen is Joyce just being despondent. Like, I walked in and I feel my chest constrict. I feel my eyes start to prickle. I feel my hands shake, but I'm like, why? And then it, like, as soon as I asked the question, why? I could feel her. And I was like, I'm feeling this because she's feeling this. It feels like experiencing heartbreak secondhand.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  And then I look around and the kitchen has just been basically demolished. The cabinets are coming down, the countertop is being ripped up, the floor is being ripped up. Everything is in disarray. She is upset. And she is so confused and it's this feeling of, I don't know what's going on. I don't know who this person is. Where did my oven go? What are you doing with the floor? And as soon as I am done processing that, I feel Mr. Dodge maybe five inches from my face going, why did you make my wife cry? I am standing in this kitchen where there is this crying woman, this very angry husband,

• 15:47Speaker 01

  and a contractor who turns around and smiles and goes, Katie, what do you think? And I'm having to play it cool. Meanwhile, my, my mind is racing because I feel awful. I am trying to keep casual and polite conversation with a gentleman who does not understand the havoc he has wreaked in this relationship. And I feel badly because I did not warn them and I didn't think to warn them. I assumed they understood because we had stood in that kitchen and talked about the changes and talked about the repairs and what would occur.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Joyce, in her creeping, in her overhearing, I thought it made sense to her and it didn't. After I disentangle myself from the conversation with the contractor, I make my way upstairs to the master bedroom because the last thing I want this man to see is me trying to talk to ghosts. And what needed to happen between the Dodges and I was an open and candid conversation that was not going to happen in front of him. So, once I found privacy, I shut the door as best I could. I said, I'm sorry, out loud, and then proceeded to just talk with them, out loud, in the master bedroom.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  And I start to explain to Jimmy, because Joyce did not follow me upstairs. Joyce was still in the kitchen, upset. But I start to explain to Jimmy, this is what we're doing in mind. And I start to draw it out in the dust in the floor upstairs. I drew the walls, and I drew where the refrigerator had been. I drew where the original door to the dining room had been, where the basement stairs were, where the sink originally was, where the stove originally was. And I went, okay, this was your kitchen. And then, piece by piece, wall by wall, I would erase what was there, and then I would draw something else. I said, all we're doing is we're expanding the wall and moving it down. Let me show you where the refrigerator is going to go.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Let me show you where the stove is going to go. And then I promised him, the next time we do something like this, I will tell you. Joyce finally calmed down. Thus Jimmy calmed down. But any headway that I made with him was gone. And it was going to be twice as hard just to get that inch back. I had to make a change in my interaction with them to prove that I meant that I was sorry. And that would never happen again. So, from there on, anytime we made changes to the house, anytime we were planning anything, down to paint color, I would take those samples and I would leave them upstairs on the windowsill.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Here are the paints. This is what I'm thinking. Once we got a lot of the anxieties out of the way, they felt much more comfortable. Because I wanted them to feel comfortable. They were still living here.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  And once she started spending some weekends in the house, the three of them began to work it out. And they each carved out their own little routines. And every day started the same way.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  At 8 o'clock, I would be woken in the most gentle way, as if someone was going, you need to wake up. There's a full day. Come on, get out of bed. And it was just very gentle, but it was still consistent. Somewhere in the realm of 8 o'clock to 8:05, and I would be in my kitchen, having a cup of tea or coffee. And Joyce would go, you need to eat a real breakfast. They would putz about. Sometimes they would ask questions. You know, sometimes they would watch. And then 10 o'clock would come, and Mr. Dodge would come up from the basement, and he'd look into where I was, and he'd go, "It's time for bed." It's literally like I was living with grandparents.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Their behavior towards me was a little overbearing, but it was okay because they were treating me like I was their family. And I was also only there on weekends, so it wasn't like I had to deal with it all the time. It was just when I was there.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Catherine finally got all her furniture in, left her mom's house, and moved in with her new family. And just like family, the more you get to know them, the more you get to know them.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Things start to change because now it's every day.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Mrs. Dodge would judge my cooking, and she goes, "I don't like what you're doing with that chicken." And I'd go, "Joyce, you're not eating it." She also did not like how much spice I added to things. It was funny at first, and then it slowly grew to be frustrating because it was constant. Jimmy did not like certain things either. Certain ways I would do my laundry, or I would fold it. He's like, "That's not how Joyce did it." I'm like, "Well, I'm not Joyce, and this isn't your pants. I don't know why you're that upset." And then he'd say that I was sassing him, and he'd get more frustrated. I'm not going to stop adding garlic to every dish I possibly can just because Joyce does not like garlic. I am not going to stop burning nice smelling candles because Jimmy says they stink.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  He's dead.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  One night, about 30 days after she moved in, Catherine is sitting on the couch in her new home with everything around her finally just how she likes it.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  I am grading papers, and then I just feel something in the house start to change. And it's like this ramping up of a rumble of activity.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And I, rather than give it attention, decide to tactfully ignore it while keeping tabs because I have work that I need to get done. And I'm feeling them and hearing them moving between the basement and the mudroom, the kitchen and the dining room and back. It's weird. They're talking to one another, but I can't understand what they're saying. They're moving with purpose. There is no pause. They see something and they go directly to it. They're toying with things. I'm hearing little crystal pieces clinking in the kitchen. I finally get to a point where I get up

• 22:13Speaker 01

  and I walk into the kitchen because I need a drink. And every single cabinet in my kitchen is open. And there is a glass that seems to have just been rested on the counter because it's rattling to a still. And I feel the room freeze, like I caught them in the middle of something they knew they shouldn't have been doing. And I go, "Okay." I just take a deep breath. I put the glass back. I closed all the cabinets. And I said, "I'm so glad that you like what I have done with the kitchen. I'm going to ask, though. Please don't play with my glassware. My mother and I spent a long time trying to find that. And I don't know how well you can hold on to these glasses. Please be gentle with my things."

• 23:06Glynn Washington?

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• 23:48Glynn Washington?

  And I could get a little more room in my closet, you know, for that next jacket. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free and start listing. No seller fees, so you keep everything you earn.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  And I could feel that they understood. And I walked back into the living room. And as I was walking by a standing lamp that is to the right of the doorway, the bulb flickered. I knew that they were following me into the living room. And I was just like, you are standing very close. You are very overly excited. The level of intensity was something that I had not felt before. That's where they started to scare me. And I paused and I'm going, you know what? I think I am going to call it for the night. I'm, I'm going to take my stuff. I'm going to go upstairs and I'm just going to leave you guys down here. I take my computer.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I take my phone. I go upstairs. I'm in my blankets, in bed. I turn on this interesting Chinese animated movie, but there is no way I could concentrate on it. I texted my boyfriend Travis and I told him, something's up with the Dodgers. I don't know what's going on. I could hear them shuffling around the living room. And I was upstairs in the master bedroom. And then I hear someone coming up the stairs. And it's not like a general house creak. I mean, it is footstep creaks coming up the stairs. I'm starting to freak out. Since I had moved in, they had never come upstairs.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  If they were that active downstairs, what are they going to be doing upstairs? Jimmy came upstairs first. And he's looking around. He's in the guest bedroom. He's checking out the master bathroom. You know, I'm hearing him play with certain things. At one point, the fan in the bathroom turned on and then shut off. I text Travis this. And as soon as I hit the send button, the master bedroom door popped open. And it was the first time I could see the shadow of someone standing at the door. And I figured it was Jimmy. It felt like Jimmy. So something happened and I could see him.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I could not see them until that point. Seeing someone for the first time was equal parts terrifying and awe inspiring because it's going, "Oh, that's what you look like. That's why other people are scared of you." He's not much taller than me, broad-shouldered. If there was hair, it was very short. I could see no features.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Not completely solid. And once he popped the door open and it hit the doorstop, which is a cast-iron rabbit,

• 27:04Speaker 01

  my whole brain goes, "I am going to be hurt. I am not going to be okay." As soon as that thought flashed through my mind, that's when I got up and regardless of how afraid I was, the rest of me went, "Nope, this is my house. You're gonna leave." It wasn't even the fact that I could see him. It was the fact they opened the door. "You broke a very clear delineation. I don't go into the basement in the middle of the night to wake you up. I have respected your boundaries. Now you turn around and disrespect mine. You took a door that was closed and blocked

• 27:47Speaker 01

  and forced it open. It is a clear barrier of do not come in. That is a universal language." And he decided to ignore it, as if it was still his house.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  That was the moment I was not okay.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  I throw the sheets off. I walk to the door. I move the rabbit. I throw the door open. And I just feel Jimmy get very embarrassed and very apologetic. I'm standing at the top of the stairs. Jimmy is now backing down the stairs. I can't see the shadow form anymore. I can just tell he's there. Joyce is at the bottom of the stairs. And I just go, "I'm really glad you like the house. I'm really glad you like everything I've done with the house, but I'm gonna end it tonight. You need to leave." I said, "It is safe. It is secure. I love it just as much as you love it. Everyone is taking care of it. I promise you, you can spend the rest of the night here and check out everything, but then you have to leave by tomorrow."

• 28:50Speaker 01

  And both of them were very awkward. I don't know if it was because they realized their behavior and that they scared me, or it was because I was standing at the top of the stairs in my underwear. But either way, they backed off and I marched myself back into my room, put the door in the rabbit's doorstopper back where they were, crawled myself into bed and texted Travis and went, "Well, you'll get a kick out of this."

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Catherine tried to play it off, but she was clearly shaken. She could still feel the couple downstairs rummaging around until 3:00 in the morning, and that's when the noises below finally stopped.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  I didn't sleep that night, but then 8:00 came the next day and Joyce did not try to get me out of bed. I stayed an extra hour, still awake. When I opened the door of the master bedroom, the house felt quiet and still. And when I walked down the stairs and through the living room, through the dining room, into the kitchen, I could tell that I was the only person moving in the house. There was no one awake or around but the house and I. It's been like that ever since.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Even though she had completely redone the house in her style and had been living there for months, Catherine did feel that for the first time, the home was truly her own. Although as much as the three roommates had gone through together, she does wish that things could have ended better.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I do feel bad about the tone that I used the last time I talked to the Dodgers.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  I miss Jimmy's approval when I would take up a challenge. Like, I didn't know how to plaster before I bought this house. I learned on the fly and he appreciated that I took the time to do that. I miss the "you need to take care of yourself" vibe that Joyce would give me. But then there are times where I remind myself that they would do that, so I now do that for myself. You know, if I miss a meal, I go, "Oh, Joyce wouldn't be happy with me." And I make sure to eat a salad or something.

• 31:16Glynn Washington?

  Thank you Catherine for sharing your story to Spook. Folks, I want you to know that Catherine, she is a Spooked listener. We love it when our listeners share their stories with us. And maybe you have a story to tell. Maybe you brushed up against something in the darkness and you tried to find out what it was. I hope you didn't, but if you did, we want to hear from you. Drop us a line. It's spooked, snapjudgment.org. The original score for that story was by Mr. Doug Stewart. It was produced by Chris Hambrik.

• 32:01Glynn Washington?

  Oh, it's that time. It's that time of this road. This road is never over. But these rocks, they are slippery. This path, it is steep. These woods, they are dark. Hold someone's hand. We are strangers in this strange land. And if you dig it, let somebody know. It's like lighting a candle in the eternal night. But if you like your storytelling under the rays of the sun, check out our sister podcast, Snap Judgment. It's cinema with sound, movies of the mind, storytelling with a beat. Spook was produced by the team that never, ever hears voices. Never, ever, ever.

• 32:44Glynn Washington?

  Except, of course, from Mr. Mark Ristich, Chris Anna Sussman. Our chief spookster is Eliza Smith, Chris Hambrik, Annie Nguyen, Lauren Nusse, Leon Morimoto, Renzo Goryo, Taylor Decott, Marissa Dodge, Aaliyah Yates, Zoe Feringo, Greta Weber, Jacob Winnick, Sana Khan, Tiffany Deliza, Anne Ford, Fernando Hernandez, and Flo Wiley.

• 33:09Glynn Washington?

  Some people, they set out treats to appease a shadow world. Others leave gifts of coins or burned sweet smelling sage. Me, I'm not trying to attract anything to me. I'm trying to repel it back from whence it came. So my strong advice to you and to everyone else is to never, ever, never, ever, never, ever turn out the lights.